The Art of Manliness - The Wisdom of Psychopaths

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:10.840 when most people think of psychopaths they think of uniformly monstrous characters who lack empathy

00:00:16.100 and conscience but my guest says that those characteristics are just one part of the spectrum

00:00:20.320 of traits that make up psychopathy and while always having these traits turned up high is

00:00:24.100 indeed bad when employed to certain degrees in certain circumstances they can actually be

00:00:28.680 utilized for adaptive positive ends kevin dutton is a researcher of experimental psychology at

00:00:33.660 oxford and the author of the wisdom of psychopaths what saints spies and serial killers can teach us

00:00:39.640 about success taylor show kevin first defines what makes psychopaths psychopaths and how they differ

00:00:45.000 from sociopaths he describes how psychopathic traits can be especially useful in some professions

00:00:49.860 in which professions attract the most psychopaths in the second half of our conversation kevin lays

00:00:55.180 out his argument for why he thinks the apostle paul was a psychopath and how that's actually what

00:00:59.480 made him such an effective evangelist at the end of our conversation kevin offers a test that

00:01:03.980 assesses psychopathy stay tuned to find out if i'm a psychopath and take the test yourself to see if you

00:01:08.820 are after the show's over check out our show notes at awim.is slash psychopath

00:01:13.060 all right kevin dutton welcome to the show thanks for having me brett it's really good to be here so

00:01:36.240 you are a research psychologist and you've written a book called the wisdom of psychopaths which is

00:01:41.520 about the lessons that non-psychopaths can get from psychopaths and i'm sure people are like what

00:01:47.300 aren't psychopaths not good people but let's let's talk about what is what makes a psychopath a

00:01:52.320 psychopath i think that's a word we throw around a lot like oh that guy's a real psychopath but uh

00:01:56.500 there's an actual that that means something so what does it mean yeah i mean it's true isn't it bro i'm

00:02:02.860 glad i'm glad we've kicked off with that question i mean psychopath is one of these words i mean it's

00:02:07.720 so ubiquitous these days that is almost losing its meaning you know and it's true isn't it when most

00:02:14.000 people hear the word psychopath they instantly think of on the silver screen serial killers like

00:02:19.500 Hannibal Lecter and in real life of course people like ted bundy but actually when psychologists like

00:02:24.500 myself talk about psychopaths we're in fact referring to a distinct subset of individuals with a

00:02:30.440 specific constellation of personality characteristics such as ruthlessness fearlessness mental toughness

00:02:38.400 self-confidence coolness under pressure emotional detachment focus charm charisma and of course those

00:02:45.960 trademark deficits in conscience and empathy that you hear so much about now none of these traits of

00:02:51.560 characteristics is necessarily a problem in itself in fact all of them dialed up at the right levels and

00:02:57.400 deployed within the right context can actually prove rather useful the key lies in context and level so

00:03:05.140 for example imagine that those qualities that i've just outlined for you comprise the dials on a studio

00:03:11.540 mixing desk of personality that may be twiddled up and down in various combinations right now if you use

00:03:17.600 that analogy you arrive at two conclusions the first is that there is no one definitive correct setting

00:03:24.860 which these dials may be positioned but rather it will invariably depend on timing upon the particular

00:03:30.960 set of circumstances you might happen to find yourself in okay and we'll come to that a little

00:03:35.340 bit later the second conclusion that you can draw is that there are certain jobs or professions which by

00:03:41.660 their very nature demand that some of these mixing desk dials be turned up just a little bit higher than

00:03:47.160 average demand what we might call some precision engineered psychopathy okay so for example

00:03:52.600 imagine you've got the skill set to be a top surgeon but that you lack the ability to emotionally

00:03:59.780 disengage from the person that you're operating on you're not going to cut it are you well quite

00:04:04.360 literally imagine you've got the skill set to be a top lawyer but that you lack that almost pathological

00:04:10.700 self-confidence and narcissism to be the center of attention in the middle of a packed courtroom again

00:04:15.880 it's not going to work is it imagine you've got the strategic and financial smarts to be a top

00:04:21.280 business person but you lack the ruthlessness to fire someone if they're underperforming or the

00:04:27.360 coolness under pressure to ride out a storm or the sheer balls necessary to take a calculated risk

00:04:34.180 when appropriate now those characteristics that i've just outlined for you there ruthlessness

00:04:38.680 fearlessness self-confidence coolness under pressure and emotional detachment comprise five

00:04:46.420 core characteristics of the psychopathic personality so you can see where the title of the book was coming

00:04:53.240 from i wouldn't say that those characteristics those psychopathic characteristics were necessarily

00:04:57.640 dysfunctional in those particular contexts in those particular professions they can be but it all if we go

00:05:06.140 back to that mixing desk dial analogy it all comes down to the context in which the personality traits are

00:05:12.740 used the combination in which they're used in the levels at which they're dialed up and of course the

00:05:19.580 intention with which they're used so that's basically what a psychopath is is somebody who's high on those

00:05:26.380 characteristics they're not necessarily bad as you can see in some professions those kinds of

00:05:32.260 characteristics will predispose you to success in forensic settings in case you're wondering about that

00:05:39.240 and how you might be diagnosed as a psychopath well in forensic settings it's kind of different

00:05:43.620 story if you're referred to a psychiatrist a forensic psychiatrist or a clinical psychologist say within a

00:05:49.900 prison setting you are diagnosed as a psychopath usually by being given a test called the psychopathy

00:05:58.880 checklist which is devised by the father of modern psychopathy research bob hair

00:06:04.620 canadian famous canadian psychologist and of a maximum score of 40 on that test it's usually around

00:06:10.640 a cutoff of 30 that you need to score above in order to be diagnosed as a psychopath in general

00:06:18.660 terms in terms of if we're diagnosing or we're rating people within the general population to see where they

00:06:26.660 might figure on the psychopathic spectrum we use other kinds of tests brett but in forensic settings

00:06:34.500 it tends to be the hair checklist which is the standard instrument of choice and if you're

00:06:39.060 interested perhaps a bit later on i've devised i've devised my own test actually which is a very

00:06:44.940 accurate test only lasts about two minutes to see where you are on the psychopathic spectrum so if

00:06:51.960 we've got time a little bit later on we can do it we can see where you are and perhaps where your

00:06:56.300 listeners are as well so you'll need a pen and paper or a mobile phone to keep a track of your score as

00:07:00.960 we're going through it but uh but yeah if we've got time a bit later on we can do it all right yeah

00:07:04.840 we'll definitely do i want to see if i'm a psychopath so psychopathy it's a personality

00:07:09.200 disorder it's not like depression or anxiety where those are like mood disorders and it's a cluster of

00:07:15.300 different things it's not just one thing it's a whole bunch of different things there's also a

00:07:18.920 diagnosis that you write about anti-social personality disorder that's similar to psychopathy

00:07:24.380 how are they similar but how are they different yeah many people confuse aspd anti-social personality

00:07:32.080 disorder with psychopathic personality disorder um and also in the mix is sociopathy okay so it's

00:07:41.060 really interesting this because i tell you what let me give you a demonstration sort of show rather

00:07:46.620 than tell imagine that you met me in a bar right and say you i don't know bumped into me in a bar

00:07:53.000 spilt your drink over me annoyed me in some way something like that if i was somebody say with

00:07:59.240 anti-social personality disorder which is basically akin to sociopathy or what we might call secondary 0.97

00:08:06.100 psychopathy i might react very violently to that i might instantly smash a bottle over your head i might

00:08:14.240 punch you um i might be instantly violent towards you i might then be arrested taken off to the police 0.98

00:08:22.120 station and later on i might regret my actions so in other words what i've done i've reacted to that 0.98

00:08:30.820 situation in a very impulsive volatile way and that tends to epitomize and characterize anti-social

00:08:40.360 personality disorder sufferers or people with sociopathy the two are pretty much interchangeable

00:08:47.220 however if i was somebody who was what we might call a primary psychopath i might not react at all

00:08:55.260 however if perhaps i saw that when you spilt your drink over me you had a wallet full of twenty dollar

00:09:02.380 bills then what i might do is i might wait for the bar to close or i might wait for you to leave 0.99

00:09:09.680 and then i might you know approach you outside down a dark alley put a knife in you 0.88

00:09:14.600 for your trouble and take your wallet and disappear but i would do it in a very calculated premeditated 0.94

00:09:21.360 cool calm and collected way so the main difference between a psychopath and someone with aspd or sociopathy

00:09:29.920 or what we might call secondary psychopathy brett is that psychopaths tend to respond and sociopaths or

00:09:39.460 aspd sufferers tend to react you know there was one psychopath a primary psychopath who i once

00:09:47.700 interviewed who put it really well and he said professor dutton i didn't really ever set out to hurt

00:09:55.220 anybody it was just collateral damage so in other words if i want something you've got and you get in

00:10:02.820 my way then you might get hurt so psychopathic violence is what we call instrumental brett it's a

00:10:11.840 means to an end whereas sociopathic violence tends to be more reactive to the situation sociopaths tend

00:10:22.240 to have more of a conscience they do experience remorse whereas psychopaths as i say are very premeditated

00:10:29.300 very instrumental very cold and emotionless reptilian you might say and don't have that remorse and

00:10:36.820 empathy so that's the difference between the two but generally speaking brett when journalists or say

00:10:43.260 non-scientific writers use the term sociopath and psychopath they do use them interchangeably

00:10:50.120 okay but there is a difference what percentage of the population might be labeled as psychopaths

00:10:56.280 yeah it's um roughly about one percent of the population there's um a slight difference in

00:11:03.780 estimates but it's usually estimated between three quarters of a percent and about one and a

00:11:08.720 half percent so the average being about one percent oh so okay about one percent of the population

00:11:13.440 are psychopathic what percentage of criminals are psychopathic yeah more there's more criminals that

00:11:19.760 are psychopathic brett roughly between 15 to 20 percent in a general kind of prison environment

00:11:28.160 would be psychopathic but of course you know the other thing about that is we don't know that they're

00:11:35.120 the criminals that have been caught right and this has always been you know an issue that i've brought

00:11:40.360 up you know we don't know how many criminals out there that haven't been caught a psychopathic

00:11:46.200 because they're the good ones so um although i don't mean good they're the ones who evaded

00:11:51.080 detection so roughly about 15 to 20 percent of incarcerated criminals are psychopaths but if we

00:11:58.580 take the view that actually the really skilled criminals haven't been caught yet it's impossible

00:12:04.520 to put a number on it so i've read these of course this is anecdotal what i've read but from

00:12:10.020 psychologists and counselors and therapists that they've actually seen an uptick in the number of

00:12:14.020 people coming to them with personality disorders so it could be borderline personality disorder

00:12:18.300 narcissistic personality disorder is something similar going on with psychopaths well it's remained

00:12:24.200 pretty stable i mean there's different kinds of i mean it is important to remember that when we talk

00:12:30.180 about someone who's who's one percent of the population we're talking about like you know genuine

00:12:35.040 pure what we might call criminal psychopaths i mean there's other it's interesting actually that um

00:12:42.140 you know studies have been done in the corporate sphere and actually the estimates in the corporate

00:12:49.120 sphere are actually higher studies have shown the data comes out as a little bit higher of the

00:12:54.240 incidence of psychopathy and the corporate or business sphere than in the general population

00:12:57.980 so estimates in the corporate sphere vary from between four to twelve percent which is probably not

00:13:05.960 going to come a surprise to too many of the listeners but i mean i think generally speaking

00:13:10.760 and you know psychologists like myself have this conversation i think you know if you look at

00:13:15.500 society in general and you compare it today to maybe how it was say 30 or 40 years ago i would say that

00:13:24.020 certainly society in general might be considered further along the psychopathic spectrum than it might

00:13:31.060 have been a few years ago i think you know look stating the obvious i think social media has got quite a bit

00:13:36.340 to do with that the anonymity of social media but also the pace of life has become much faster

00:13:43.300 everything from you know household objects to friends have become disposable and transient

00:13:49.020 so you know in general it wouldn't surprise me i don't have the figures off the top of my head about

00:13:54.920 any upticks in psychopathic personality disorder but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if people are

00:14:01.460 generally scoring higher on tests of psychopathy than they say would have done say 30 years ago

00:14:07.840 so you mentioned that a disproportionate amount of people who work in the corporate world are

00:14:13.560 psychopaths but a surprising one so you've looked at the correlation between career fields and psychopathy

00:14:19.400 and clergymen tend to rate high on psychopathy what's going on there do you think

00:14:25.680 well you tell me um when um yeah you're referring to a survey i did which became rather famous back in

00:14:34.640 um back in i think it was about 2014 called the great bridge psychopath survey brett and i was on a

00:14:40.800 radio show over here in the uk and i put out a call i actually put out a little test on the radio show's

00:14:48.680 website pretty similar to the test that we're going to do a bit later on here on on your show

00:14:52.980 and what i got people to do was to obviously fill out the questionnaire to answer the questions they

00:14:59.200 would then get their psychopath score so to speak and in return they would let me know what their

00:15:04.580 occupations were and well i didn't realize how popular this was actually going to be and it turned

00:15:11.200 out that low thousands of people filled out this questionnaire had i known it was going to be so

00:15:17.040 popular i would have probably done it in a more scientific fashion but um it was good enough to get some

00:15:22.180 pretty good data and it turned out that i've got the uh of the top of my head number one the most

00:15:30.260 psychopathic profession was ceo number two came in lawyers i think three was the media four i think

00:15:38.160 was sale surgeons came in at five the police were in there at some point a clergy i think came in at number

00:15:47.080 eight now at the time of course that did surprise me however being crude and being you know totally

00:15:56.320 realistic about it the church is just like any other business it involves uh power structures and

00:16:03.680 hierarchies and you know if you want to get to the top of that what it's pretty much like getting to

00:16:09.720 the top of any other business the same skill sets are needed and especially when you've got a business

00:16:15.580 where the merchandise is something ineffable like god and you're dealing with having power real power

00:16:23.800 over people's lives which is um you know apparently you know backed by a divine being then actually that's

00:16:33.480 quite a fertile environment for people high on the psychopathic spectrum who perhaps have rather dubious

00:16:40.020 motives to thrive in now one senior clergyman when i was in cambridge once said i have to say

00:16:46.920 one of the most chilling things that anyone has ever said to me in all my years of working in this field

00:16:53.380 and he turned around to me and he said kevin i don't believe in god i'm just good at him

00:16:58.940 and i'll never forget that brett i mean look i'm not hey we're not here to dig out church people

00:17:04.220 right there's always going to be one or two rotten apples in any barrel but i mean when you've got

00:17:09.060 people saying that to you is quite a senior figure in the church actually you tend as time goes on not

00:17:16.380 to be surprised that clergy are uh are up there in the top 10. So what separates you know there's

00:17:22.860 successful psychopaths like there's lawyers who are doing great neurosurgeons ceos they're not committing

00:17:28.240 crimes so what separates the psychopaths who direct their those traits to i would say adaptive ends

00:17:35.780 as opposed to ones who use them for maladaptive ends yeah you know well actually coming back to

00:17:42.540 surgeons i mean you mentioned surgeons there and i'll tell you something quite interesting i was doing

00:17:46.980 a talk a few years ago and there was a surgeon in the audience who came up to me afterwards

00:17:52.620 and he said i think you might be being a little bit generalistic in including surgeons in the list

00:18:00.500 he said i've got he's got no doubt he wasn't trying to defend surgery he said he's got no doubt at all

00:18:04.980 that you know psychopathic characteristics are important in the operating theater but he said

00:18:10.880 maybe it's a little bit more nuanced and he said he wouldn't be surprised if we did a study that

00:18:17.360 we'd find that out of i think there's 11 or 12 surgical disciplines within the umbrella term surgery

00:18:22.920 he said he probably wouldn't be surprised to find that there were differences amongst the surgical

00:18:31.460 disciplines and we began doing a study with the help of this guy actually actually covid kind of got

00:18:38.180 in the way of it and halted it so we should really should get back to it but actually it turns out

00:18:43.100 that there are three of those surgical disciplines which are really quite high on the psychopathic

00:18:49.960 spectrum higher than the others one you've mentioned is neurosurgery probably no surprise there you've

00:18:56.660 got you know differences in distance between crucial capillaries and veins in the brain are in the

00:19:04.180 order of fractions of a millimeter if you get it wrong you could kill someone or you could blind them

00:19:10.460 or incapacitate them for life so you know you really are walking a high wire surgical high wire there

00:19:17.000 and the second of the disciplines is cardiothoracic surgery again probably no surprise but the third one

00:19:24.640 did surprise me actually although not so much now i know it and i'm sure um you're going to have people

00:19:29.100 listening in who are going to get this and the third one was orthopedic surgery orthopedic surgeons have

00:19:34.320 to do some pretty nasty things to people they use drills they have to break bones they have to

00:19:40.120 crunch bones you know that's even though you're trying to heal someone and make them better you've

00:19:45.900 got to do some pretty nasty things to them so neurosurgery cardiothoracic surgery and orthopedic

00:19:51.280 surgery are the three leaders among the surgical disciplines but i think your question was what's the

00:19:58.080 difference between psychopaths who turn out all right and psychopaths who kind of go down the take the

00:20:03.440 the bad route you know what brett it comes down to something really simple as you know what kind of

00:20:10.520 background you grew up in and you came from i mean let's this gets very complicated so i always use a

00:20:16.860 kind of a simple analogy i always use an analogy of a bullet and a gun okay so let's say that the bullet 0.81

00:20:22.940 in a gun is your dna right it's your let's say that's your genetic predisposition to be a psychopath

00:20:30.520 okay now guns don't fire on their own right okay so you need a finger on the trigger to fire the gun

00:20:37.060 or in terms of our analogy to make that dna become live um now that finger on the trigger of the

00:20:46.600 psychopathy gun is usually some abusive or aversive incident or set of incidences in your formative years

00:20:58.160 as a child so it could be coming from a violent dysfunctional alcoholic home broken family emotional

00:21:07.940 abuse physical abuse sexual abuse you could have got a devastating rejection at a formative period of

00:21:16.220 your life you might not have had a good education you might come from a very poor family background

00:21:23.420 and you didn't have the right role models all kinds of stuff like that if you have that kind of

00:21:31.340 background that kind of start in life and you've got that bullet in the gun then it's likely you might

00:21:38.380 end up taking the kind of the criminal route especially if you are also aggressive by nature okay

00:21:45.520 however if you've got that bullet in the gun and you come from and by the way this isn't an exact

00:21:52.020 science by the way we all know people that have come from you know really really really rough 1.00

00:21:56.100 backgrounds that aren't haven't to who psychopathic who haven't turned out that way and we also know

00:22:00.580 people who come from very good backgrounds who turn out to be bad apples but generally speaking if

00:22:05.980 you've got that bullet in the gun and you come from a really good family background a loving family

00:22:11.040 background you have a good education you have good role models then you might take a different route

00:22:17.060 all together the famous reuters headline once put it you might be more likely to make a killing in

00:22:22.220 the market than anywhere else so it's pretty much background especially formative experiences in your

00:22:29.480 background as a child that tend to interact with genetics well you even kind of to highlight the

00:22:35.700 biological component of psychopathy you turned yourself temporarily into a psychopath with magnets in

00:22:42.820 your brain can you walk us through that well i'm glad you said temporarily there brett i mean i think

00:22:47.840 my missus my my my immeasurably superior other half might disagree with that but um uh yeah i mean it was

00:22:54.560 um it was a a bet that i entered into with a very good friend of mine andy mcnab who's an ex-british

00:23:01.720 special forces soldier who is a psychopath many people who are in special forces are high on the

00:23:08.840 psychopathic spectrum perhaps not surprisingly and andy andy and i went head to head on a task to see

00:23:15.680 who would be cooler under pressure and so what this task involved was being wired up to various

00:23:23.880 physiological measures such as a galvanic skin response which measures your sweat rate an index of

00:23:29.360 anxiety also your heart rate stuff like that all indexes of anxiety and we were sat in front of a

00:23:37.400 computer screen which played cut a long story short some extremely horrific images uh very very gruesome

00:23:45.480 images and we were then monitored to see where our physiological responses would end up and andy's

00:23:53.500 were just flatlining there was hardly anything going on pretty much the gold standard test for a

00:23:59.000 psychopath you know my physiological responses were going through the roof so you know if you looked at

00:24:05.560 the graph at the end of it my physiological responses were like the new york skyline you know up and down

00:24:10.760 up and down up and down whereas andy's were pretty much flatlining so that was stage one of the

00:24:15.240 experiments stage two of the experiment was i underwent a technique which a colleague of mine subjected me

00:24:21.140 to is one of the world experts in it called transcranial magnetic stimulation now very briefly for your

00:24:27.260 listeners brett not to go into too many details about this if you imagine your brain cells as being like

00:24:33.420 the hairs on your head well if you want to get a different hairstyle you basically comb your hair

00:24:39.320 into a different style well you can kind of do that with neurons using electromagnetic pulses you can

00:24:45.340 kind of give yourself an electromagnetic neural comb over so you've got a different neural hairstyle as it

00:24:51.180 were within your head but just like normal hairstyles it doesn't last long if you just do it once

00:24:56.100 it will soon go back to your usual style so transcranial magnetic stimulation involves putting a helmet on

00:25:02.300 your head and you target various areas of your brain that you are interested in stimulating in my case it was

00:25:11.260 the areas to do with emotion and empathy we needed to turn them down my colleagues subjected me to the

00:25:19.260 electromagnetic comb over as it were and then i sat the test again in other words i looked at these

00:25:27.240 horrific gruesome images and when i was looking at them this time whereas before i found them you know

00:25:33.720 truly horrific it was very difficult to kind of not suppress a smile this time now my readings my

00:25:42.380 psychophysiological readings still weren't as cool or as flat as my special forces friend andy so i did

00:25:50.500 have to buy him a few drinks and dinner that night but they were dramatically reduced from the new york

00:25:55.260 skyline that they were before and basically the effect lasted for about 45 minutes afterwards as well

00:26:03.840 and you know people have often asked me what it feels like and it feels like you know you have five or

00:26:08.420 six shots of jack daniels but without that kind of you know sluggishness or tiredness or lack of focus

00:26:16.060 that you get it was kind of like you know you couldn't really care what happened but you didn't

00:26:21.780 lose your focus i think i wrote at the time it was a line that people picked up on it was like my entire

00:26:27.360 brain had been spring cleaned or like put in a washer dryer and had come out completely different and i

00:26:34.680 remember afterwards there was a driving video game at the time which was in the student bar

00:26:39.740 which i had a go at and beat my previous score because obviously i was whizzing around corners i

00:26:44.560 wasn't caring somebody had left some money on the table to pay for a dinner they'd left and i felt very

00:26:50.340 much like taking that money i didn't by the way it was a very very interesting experience so yeah i guess

00:26:58.700 i guess i know what it's like to feel like a temporary psychopath anyway yeah so the psychopath's

00:27:05.060 brain is different from a regular person's brain non-psychopathic brain we're gonna take a quick

00:27:10.160 break for your words from our sponsors and now back to the show well going back to this idea that

00:27:20.120 psychopathy can be useful and be positive you use this example and people are gonna be like this is

00:27:26.040 crazy but you make the case that the apostle paul may have been a psychopath now we have been able

00:27:32.960 you you haven't given them test so all we have this is speculative we're basing on the historical

00:27:37.880 record but what's the case that the apostle paul might have been a psychopath and how that might

00:27:44.480 have made him greatest evangelizer of christianity yeah well a couple of things that let me let me

00:27:51.220 first of all pick you up on a point there brett uh you said that there's you know haven't tested him

00:27:56.080 there's no psychological evidence actually i have in a manner of speaking so you don't you don't just

00:28:00.820 have to take my word for this but you're absolutely right you know i'm really glad not many people ask

00:28:07.080 me about some paul it's one of my favorite topics i would have loved to have met the guy i mean there

00:28:12.180 is no doubt whatsoever he was a psychopath and very high on the psychopathic spectrum now i know that's

00:28:18.260 going to come as a shock to some of your listeners you know the founder of western christianity 0.95

00:28:22.160 before he turned into stained glass was a brutal narcissistic psychopath but he was and i have often

00:28:30.740 called saint paul the patron saint of psychopaths that's not to dig him out in any way i'm a great

00:28:35.940 admirer of saint paul it's just stating the fact so let me go back to how i came by this diagnosis

00:28:42.920 it's really interesting so the the tagline of the book wisdom of psychopaths is lessons in life

00:28:47.800 from saints spies and serial killers and when i first submitted to the publisher the publishers

00:28:52.580 were very very nervous about including saint paul in there because they thought it was going to

00:28:57.380 alienate vast swathes of of the public especially in america but i was absolutely adamant that i had

00:29:03.780 the data and i was very confident in this and it was something i felt very passionate about

00:29:08.500 and the publisher backed me and hence the the famous tagline so actually when i say don't take my

00:29:15.440 word for it when i was at university of oxford a few years ago i was surrounded by some of the

00:29:23.660 world's top biographers of people famous historical personages now some of these well all of these

00:29:31.240 biographers had studied the people that they were experts in for years and years and years and probably

00:29:35.800 knew those people better than they knew themselves so it suddenly dawned on me i was very interested to

00:29:41.500 find out where famous historical personages might feature on the psychopathic spectrum so i contrived a

00:29:51.180 way of doing this and i thought well okay imagine if i were to give a psychometric test of psychopathy

00:29:58.580 especially devised psychometric test of psychopathy that are used say for members of the general public and

00:30:03.260 we touched on that earlier imagine if i were to give these psychometric instruments to the world's

00:30:10.800 top biographers of famous historical personages people who knew these personages better than they

00:30:16.780 knew themselves and said hey fill this questionnaire out not on behalf of yourself obviously but on behalf

00:30:24.220 of the person you are an expert on it struck me as a scientist that actually i would probably get quite

00:30:31.000 an accurate reading on people but just to make sure for each historical personage that i profiled

00:30:37.860 i got two academic experts to do it and then i looked at the correlation between the ratings from

00:30:43.420 both of them and obviously if they were way out then you can pretty much say well okay there's you

00:30:47.880 know perhaps not that reliable but um actually i didn't find any that were too great a discrepancy

00:30:54.560 and saint paul was obviously one of the people who i profile gave two academic experts the questionnaire

00:31:01.840 to fill out on behalf of saint paul and he came in very high on the psychopathic spectrum and i mean

00:31:08.740 look it's not surprising first of all if he was alive today he'd probably be indicted by the geneva

00:31:15.200 convention for genocide i mean obviously before the road to damascus he was massacring christians in

00:31:22.200 large numbers so total lack of conscience there he had no concern whatsoever for his personal safety

00:31:29.040 he was constantly at risk of violent assault on open roads and in inner cities he was shipwrecked three

00:31:35.240 times he was estimated to have spent six years of his ministry in prison five times he received the

00:31:44.800 maximum 39 lashes any more than that and you're in danger of being killed he was beaten with

00:31:52.140 rods three times there was a famous incident outside the city of lystra where he was preaching and he

00:31:59.160 was stoned by an angry mob to within an inch of his life dragged outside the city walls and what did he

00:32:04.700 do as soon as he came around he went straight back in so he was a habitual lawbreaker as well no sense of

00:32:10.920 consequence or personal safety he was a cold and calculating political mover and shaker i think

00:32:18.940 very deficient in empathy he famously fell out with st peter in antioch where he called peter out to 0.76

00:32:26.440 his face he called him a hypocrite then in fact biblical scholars will note that paul had to leave

00:32:31.780 antioch after that and pretty much as persona non grata so he wasn't averse to riding roughshod over

00:32:38.020 people's feelings and sentiments and sensibilities without any care at all about them and no doubt with

00:32:44.780 more than a pinch of narcissism there's also the idea that he was a social chameleon as well

00:32:50.940 there's a famous passage in one corinthians when he says i've become all things to all people

00:32:56.920 to the jews i've become a jew in order to win jews to those under the law i've become under the law

00:33:03.180 though i am not under the law he says to win those who are under the law to those who are outside the

00:33:07.960 law i've become outside the law to win people who are outside the law and to the weak i've become weak

00:33:12.140 etc etc so i mean if you if you look at those qualities ruthlessness fearlessness narcissism

00:33:19.800 manipulativeness and a lack of empathy plus the high score that he got from two academic experts

00:33:28.200 who had been studying paul for years and years and years i think it's pretty certain that paul was high

00:33:35.700 on the psychopathic spectrum and you know when we look at the stained glass in our churches and cathedrals

00:33:40.100 we've got a psychopath in there he's also instrumental so in that verse you just quoted

00:33:44.620 first corinthians he says to the jews i became a jew in order to win the jews he says to the weak i

00:33:49.860 became the weak that i might win the weak so he does these things for a purpose absolutely right and

00:33:55.560 he's what i would call a good psychopath i mean he wasn't indiscriminate in what he was doing if we go

00:34:03.200 back to the mixing desk analogy which i told you about a little bit earlier and we look at those

00:34:10.160 kinds of dials on that mixing desk it's all to do with the right context the right combination the

00:34:16.660 right level and with the right intention and absolutely right that's why i find paul so

00:34:21.120 fascinating you know if i was god which i'm not i would have picked paul for that ministry precisely

00:34:28.820 because of the personality structure that he had if you wanted to spread christianity spread the word

00:34:35.080 in that kind of volatile environment that existed in those days you're not going to pick a shrinking

00:34:40.560 violet right no yeah you don't want to pick the guy who you know they get flogged once they give up

00:34:45.320 you want the guy who just he's gonna keep going back after he gets flogged he doesn't care you you've

00:34:50.320 got it he was ruthless fearless narcissist he had it all he had it all but this is the same guy

00:34:55.560 who wrote first corinthians 13 which is all about love right love is patient love is kind it does not

00:35:01.760 envy does not boast it is not proud so how do you reconcile you know saint paul the psychopath with

00:35:08.280 this guy who wrote this this great thing about love that people read at weddings and and the like

00:35:12.360 let me answer that question brett by reading you one of my favorite passages of love it's only a short

00:35:21.440 passage and it goes like this love true love real love is a plant that needs no watering it seeks not

00:35:31.280 to be sustained by its object but purely to nurture it love is blind not in the sense that it cannot see

00:35:38.680 but in the sense that it cannot condemn or desert or wither love is like a fire that burns in an empty

00:35:46.520 great it feeds only on itself it dances flickers and blazes from within now you might be forgiven

00:35:55.940 for thinking that that passage was written by one of the great romantic writers or the great romantic

00:36:01.680 poets of the 19th or 18th centuries but in fact it wasn't it was written by an ai program just a couple

00:36:07.900 of weeks ago with about as much experience of love as a turnip now i think that when we compare that

00:36:16.380 passage with that famous passage from 1 corinthians 13 that saint paul wrote um nothing specific in

00:36:23.480 that passage that paul wrote convinces me definitively that the author of it really had any any genuine

00:36:30.940 experience or feeling of love if an ai program can write a passage like the one i've just recited to

00:36:37.920 you then you know i don't think it's totally different from what paul wrote and i think your question

00:36:42.940 here actually flags up a very important distinction that we need to make when it comes to psychopaths

00:36:51.100 and empathy because there are two different kinds of empathy there's what we call hot empathy brett

00:36:57.900 which is basically the feeling of feeling what another person is feeling okay it's when we genuinely

00:37:04.240 feel what another person is feeling and then there's cold empathy which is the ability to cognitively and

00:37:11.880 dispassionately gauge what another person might be feeling and to act accordingly and there's a lot

00:37:21.340 of scientific evidence a lot of empirical data that suggests that psychopaths are deficient in the hot

00:37:28.180 empathy but they have a hell of a lot of cold empathy they're even better than the rest of us quite

00:37:34.080 possibly at gauging cognitively coolly calmly and dispassionately what another person is thinking and

00:37:40.600 acting accordingly and that of course makes them uh great manipulators great persuaders and so that

00:37:46.560 may well be what we're seeing here with saint paul in that passage i have to say by the way let me

00:37:52.140 again reiterate i'm a great admirer of saint paul i think he was a very very gifted personality so i'm not

00:37:57.740 having a goal digging him out here but i think given the fact that he was high on the psychopathic

00:38:02.300 spectrum i think quite possibly that this was more of a cognitive exercise this passage it was coolly

00:38:09.300 and dispassionately describing uh what he had perceived love to be as displayed in other people he doesn't

00:38:18.000 necessarily need to have felt it uh himself and and you know i always remember one psychopath saying

00:38:23.020 you know in order to know how traffic lights work you don't need color vision you don't need to see

00:38:29.940 the red and the green light you just need to know which bit of the light is lit up

00:38:36.560 and that very much sums up in visual form the relationship between psychopaths and empathy

00:38:44.880 they don't see the color of emotion but they know which bits are lit up if you want to put it in a music

00:38:51.500 analogy they see the notes on the page but they don't hear the tune or the melody so the fact that

00:38:58.460 saint paul wrote that very famous passage uh on love in one corinthians 13 certainly doesn't for me

00:39:04.200 contradict any of the scientific evidence that i've gathered that he's on the psychopathic spectrum

00:39:10.120 and it doesn't change my opinion one bit that he was high on the psychopathic spectrum of course if

00:39:15.700 you're a believer you'd say well he that's just revealed word he could be a psychopath but god

00:39:20.120 could still tell him this great thing about love absolutely yeah i'm not criticizing paul and you know

00:39:26.480 as i as i say i can absolutely see why paul was the right man for the job in that particular time

00:39:33.040 in that particular environment it was a very very dangerous world that he lived in you know christians 1.00

00:39:38.980 were in in mortal danger a lot of the time and his own life demonstrated that you know he spent as i

00:39:45.020 say six years in prison you know he was he was a real fearless adventurer and he had to be

00:39:50.880 in order to spread the word but he was a good psychopath because he needed to be okay so being

00:39:56.100 a little psychopathic can be useful if you're a you know a pioneering prophet type like paul but we've

00:40:01.820 also talked about how psychopathy can be useful in other vocations like being a doctor or a lawyer or

00:40:07.720 ceo but let's talk about some of the specific traits of psychopathy that can be adaptive for everyone

00:40:15.040 and one of those traits of psychopathy that you talk about is ruthlessness now a lot of people they

00:40:21.000 don't feel comfortable being ruthless but what can non-psychopaths learn from psychopaths as to how to

00:40:28.240 be ruthless but in an adaptive way yeah i mean i think one of the things which psychopaths are very

00:40:37.700 good at if we just factorize down what that means being ruthless brett is they're able to decouple

00:40:46.500 emotion from behavior okay so and this is something which a lot of us could do a little bit more of i'm

00:40:54.020 not saying you know actually when when the book first came out everyone said oh dutton's trying to

00:40:58.860 turn the whole world into psychopaths i wasn't at all but if you think about it a lot of us kind of

00:41:05.100 labor under the misapprehension that we've got to feel like something in order to do it

00:41:09.780 well that's just not true i mean if that was the case and half of us wouldn't get out of bed in the

00:41:14.680 morning right so that's the first number one truth you don't have to feel like doing something in order

00:41:21.100 to do it now you can split people into two camps brett okay let's say for example you go on holiday

00:41:30.120 right and let's say you go to the sea you got your swimming trunks on or your bathing costume on

00:41:35.520 and there's the sea and we you know what i'm going to say people you can divide people into two camps

00:41:40.620 there's people that basically run straight into the sea and dive into the waves right or you've got

00:41:46.900 another group of people that basically spend about half an hour getting in right they dip their toes

00:41:51.840 in they kind of splash they get up to their knees and then the wave oh and it's really cold and

00:41:56.580 and eventually they get in right whereas the person that just you know ran and jumped in

00:42:00.900 has been in for about 20 minutes now you may think this is quite flippant but actually there's been

00:42:07.120 studies done looking at this in real life and like well who experiences the most discomfort or pain

00:42:13.600 is it the runners and jumpers that go straight in or is it the splashers now perhaps unsurprisingly

00:42:19.880 it's actually the splashers that experience most pain because they're aggregating it

00:42:24.380 not only is the thought of going in exacerbating the pain that they're feeling but it's almost

00:42:29.240 death by a thousand cuts whereas if you get it out of the way completely you know straight away

00:42:34.720 in one go okay you have that one big dose of pain but actually it's all over then right so you

00:42:40.380 experience less pain if you just run in and do it and jump so what's that got to do with everyday

00:42:45.600 life well actually we are exactly the same as people on the beach there are psychological

00:42:51.760 splashes and there are psychological runners and jumpers in and if you just use exactly the same

00:43:00.260 logic the more you put something off the more you hesitate the more you come up with reasons not to do

00:43:07.540 something or procrastinate the more pain you are going to actually feel and that could be anything

00:43:12.920 from say firing someone to saying no or to say doing some chore that you've been putting off for years

00:43:19.660 or making an awkward phone call so just being aware of that and saying okay listen as soon as you need

00:43:29.020 to do something the quicker you can do it the less pain you're going to aggregate things start to change

00:43:35.300 weakness brett resides in the gaps or the cracks between thinking and doing when you think that

00:43:42.100 you've got to do something if you then leave it a long time before you actually do it basically the

00:43:48.980 germs of anxiety kind of fester and grow within that gap or that crack between thinking and doing and

00:43:56.460 that's when you start to get nervous and that's when anxiety starts creeping in so if you want to be

00:44:02.000 more ruthless if you want to be tougher if you want to be more resilient go with that Nike phrase just do it

00:44:09.540 okay because there's a lot of wisdom in it incidentally that was based on Gary Gilmore the

00:44:14.340 American serial killer don't know if you know this who was pretty much his last words when he was being

00:44:18.880 executed let's do it and that's where the slogan came from but if you want to be more ruthless if you

00:44:24.340 want to be more resilient don't think about it just do it decouple emotion from behavior don't leave

00:44:29.740 long gaps between thinking about doing something and then getting down and doing it last year I kind of

00:44:37.540 came to this idea that I'm actually possibly teaching my kids to be psychopaths in certain

00:44:42.000 situations so my kids play sports basketball flag football and you know when you're a parent you're

00:44:48.160 on the sidelines and you yell to your kids when they're on defense be aggressive be aggressive and

00:44:53.380 I remember I asked my daughter when I say be aggressive or a coach says be aggressive like what

00:44:58.780 do you think that means like I was trying to figure out like do they understand what I mean by that

00:45:02.060 and she said well it means you get really angry and you punch someone in the face and I said no

00:45:05.960 that's not that's not what I mean that'd be assault we're not going to do that and I realized

00:45:10.160 aggression when I say be aggressive I want you to think about the goal of what you're trying to do

00:45:14.340 in the sports get the ball right get the rebound and just go for that and you're not breaking the

00:45:18.700 rules but it's a proactive yeah it's not you're not responding to the other players if you jump up

00:45:24.480 for the rebound and you accidentally knock a guy over well that's that's fine you weren't trying to hurt

00:45:28.380 the guy but that was a byproduct of that so like in sports and I'm telling my kids like be aggressive 0.81

00:45:32.700 I'm kind of telling them you got to kind of be a psychopath like a good psychopath in a way you're

00:45:37.620 not reacting to the other players you're not getting angry your goal is just to pull the flag

00:45:42.240 get the ball and whatever happens in the process that's what happens you're not purposely trying

00:45:48.140 to hurt people but you got to do what you got to do to succeed yeah I couldn't put it better myself

00:45:52.400 I mean I call it the attack mindset and I do a lot of work in elite sport and I have never yet known

00:45:59.060 a great champion not to have the killer instinct not to have an attack mindset even when they're

00:46:05.200 losing even when they're behind having an attack mindset which is basically when in doubt attack

00:46:10.640 and I often use sport as an example of where psychopathic characteristics absolutely are justified

00:46:19.200 and the example I often use is say someone like Roger Federer one of the nicest guys you could ever wish

00:46:25.460 to meet off the court but you know when he's at Flushing Meadow or when he's at Wimbledon or when

00:46:31.780 he's at Roland Garros or you know places like that in a major final he is absolutely ruthless in crushing

00:46:40.320 the opponent on the other side of the net and you know as I say were Roger Federer to behave like that

00:46:48.400 off court in everyday life he'd soon have found himself in a very different court a court of law

00:46:54.040 but the difference in personality between say who Roger Federer is off the court and who he is on

00:47:00.580 court in the middle of a major grand slam final is drastic it's dramatic it's a huge gulf and yet

00:47:08.860 Federer would have thought nothing or any great champion Djokovic Nadal any any great champion would

00:47:14.440 think nothing of crushing the other person six love six love six love at Flushing Meadow in the

00:47:19.540 final of the US Open none none whatsoever you you're talking about in front of millions of people

00:47:24.960 who are tuned in worldwide you are completely crushing and sabotaging someone else's dream

00:47:30.620 why would you feel any shred of compunctional remorse about that and yet off court you can be the nicest

00:47:39.140 guy under the sun so you know and and and people's people often say to me yeah well sports not real

00:47:45.700 life of course it's real life there's billions and billions of dollars in sport and people can

00:47:51.340 be absolutely crushed in front of millions and millions of people their dreams laid bare in front

00:47:56.740 of the world and you're trampling all over them so don't tell me sport isn't about real life so I

00:48:02.400 couldn't agree with you more but it's a great example of how good psychopathic traits can be used

00:48:07.540 not just use they're essential in getting you to the top and keeping you there but yeah it depends on

00:48:13.560 the context and also how much the dial on it right you want to get so well absolutely I mean absolutely

00:48:18.280 it'd be bad in a different context yeah absolutely I mean like I said if Roger Federer came off court

00:48:23.440 in Flushing Meadow or Wimbledon and he didn't dial it back down he'd soon find himself in a very

00:48:28.560 different court of law but actually he's able to dial those dials up when necessary which is in the

00:48:35.620 middle of a major final and dial them down when he comes off court absolutely it's all about context

00:48:41.340 combination level and intention right so I guess the trick there is to learn when to detach emotion

00:48:47.300 from action and it's a skill you have to practice and you'll be uncomfortable at first but the more

00:48:53.160 you do it you'll learn how to you'll get better at it yeah that's one of the big differences Brett

00:48:58.360 between people who end up in prison and people who who are successful who use their psychopathic

00:49:04.780 characteristics to be successful and that is again going back to the mixing desk analogy

00:49:09.660 if your dials are stuck on max and you can't turn them down and they're just blaring out you know

00:49:15.820 ruthlessness fearlessness all the time you know you've got that soundtrack on and it doesn't matter where

00:49:21.700 you are then you're going to end up in prison pretty quickly but if you're able to turn those

00:49:26.560 dials up and down you know if you're a good personality producer then you're likely to be successful

00:49:32.880 and that's pretty much the difference you know if we use the mixing desk analogy between a good and

00:49:37.260 a bad psychopath there's some other traits what you talk about in the book fearlessness being

00:49:42.080 mentally resilient being mindful is another one so psychopaths often stay in the moment they're

00:49:48.020 really keyed in on what's going on but let's talk about let's do this test let's find out if

00:49:51.880 I'm a psychopath and maybe people are listening and figure out if they're psychopaths today all right

00:49:56.400 well what you're gonna need Brett you're gonna need let me get the test in front of me here

00:50:01.200 you're gonna need a pen and paper or you're gonna need like a mobile phone something you can record

00:50:06.100 your responses on okay because what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna read you out 11 items okay 11 statements

00:50:14.520 and these statements hypothetically describe you as a person okay and what you're gonna do

00:50:21.780 you are gonna rate them as I go through them 1 to 11 you're gonna rate them according to how

00:50:28.320 accurate a description you think each statement is of you and you're gonna use the following scoring

00:50:35.300 key okay so if you strongly disagree the statement describes you you award yourself zero points okay

00:50:42.440 strongly disagree zero points if you disagree you give yourself one point if you agree you give

00:50:51.120 yourself two points and if you strongly agree you give yourself three points okay so it says zero

00:50:57.280 one two three scoring key ranging from zero strongly disagree to three strongly agree okay you got it

00:51:05.300 got it what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna read you out 11 these 11 statements and you're gonna write

00:51:10.360 down on a piece of paper or type it on your mobile phone screen or whatever just keep a record as we're

00:51:15.440 going of what your score is for each of the items okay number one is I rarely plan ahead I'm a spur of

00:51:23.940 the moment kind of person I rarely plan ahead I'm a spur of the moment kind of person I'm going to give

00:51:28.780 you a bit of advice here Brett don't say your numbers out loud mate the reason for that will become

00:51:33.300 evident in a minute sure just write them down okay I rarely plan ahead I'm a spur of the moment kind

00:51:38.380 of person number two cheating on your partner is okay so long as you don't get caught that's why I was

00:51:44.780 telling you not to say them out loud you got to be honest on this test folks by the way whenever I do

00:51:50.600 this in a university with students who love this that question too is always the one where they're

00:51:55.100 kind of looking over each other's shoulder seeing what the other person's putting number three if

00:52:01.100 something better comes along it's okay to cancel a long-standing appointment something better comes

00:52:07.720 along it's okay to cancel a long-standing appointment just to recap Brett zero is strongly disagree

00:52:12.980 one is disagree to agree and three strongly agree number four seeing an animal injured or in pain

00:52:21.520 doesn't bother me in the slightest number five driving fast cars riding roller coasters and skydiving

00:52:31.960 appeal to me and number six it doesn't matter to me if I have to step on other people to get what I want

00:52:40.800 number seven number seven I'm very persuasive I have a talent for getting other people to do what I

00:52:48.560 want eight I'd be good in a dangerous job because I can make my mind up quickly don't think too long

00:52:56.520 about that one and nine I find it easy to keep it together when others are cracking under pressure

00:53:04.200 number 10 if you're able to con someone hey that's their problem they deserve it

00:53:11.800 and the final one number 11 most of the time when things go wrong it's somebody else's fault not mine

00:53:22.160 okay so you should have 11 numbers on a screen or a page in front of you there

00:53:28.280 Brett yeah or folks if you're playing at home what I want you to do is add them up top those numbers up

00:53:35.100 and you will come to a final total now Brett don't say your number out loud yet mate what I'll do

00:53:41.440 is I'll go through the scoring ranges and what it means okay where you are on the psychopathic spectrum

00:53:48.540 listen what we should say first of all here is we're not diagnosing anyone here by the way okay

00:53:54.300 this is not a clinical diagnosis this is just a general indication of where you might be on the

00:54:01.440 psychopathic spectrum okay so let's get that out the way now 0 to 11 if you've scored 0 to 11 on that

00:54:10.000 test folks you are low on the psychopathic spectrum okay if you score 12 to 17 below average

00:54:20.080 18 to 22 is average you can you can feel the tension rising can't you 23 to 28 you are high

00:54:32.100 on the psychopathic spectrum and 29 to 33 you are very high on the psychopathic spectrum so go on Brett 0.87

00:54:42.220 what did you get I got a six that's pathetic I'm gonna send you a few books mate you need to read 0.92

00:54:52.300 you need to read a few of those we need to get those dials turned up yeah a little bit we need 0.95

00:54:57.320 once you I can tell you've never been so happy to have done badly on a test in your life have you

00:55:02.940 no yeah I'm not gonna be James Bond for sure I'm not gonna be a spy yeah I'm a square I'm a square

00:55:08.920 for sure yeah six you are well you're you're you're you listen you're a saint you're a good saint

00:55:14.480 you're not even like St. Paul you're a good saint you're yeah you know you're uh yeah that's that's

00:55:19.800 one for the memoirs that is right but um listen I know I don't know if you want to do this Brett but

00:55:25.180 I'd be really interested to see what your listeners score so if your listeners can put it on Twitter

00:55:31.660 and maybe just put your score down and maybe say what you do for a living be kind of interesting

00:55:38.060 if you tag me in I'll give my Twitter Insta handle it's at the real doctor that's dr kev k-e-v

00:55:48.740 so at the real dr dr kev if you can tag me in put down what your score is and what you do for a living

00:55:57.880 I'll be keeping an eye on that because I'm sure there'll be some really interesting ones there

00:56:02.000 well Kevin this has been a great conversation besides your Instagram and Twitter where else

00:56:06.740 can people go to learn more about you and your work yeah you can go to my website which is dr dr

00:56:12.220 that is dr kevindutton.com and you can see a little bit about what I do on there so Brett I've thoroughly

00:56:21.140 enjoyed it I really have really great questions I am so glad you asked about St. Paul hardly anyone

00:56:26.860 asked me about St. Paul now as you can probably tell it was one of my favorite topics but I've really

00:56:32.320 really enjoyed it it's been fab it's been great fun well I've really enjoyed it too Kevin thanks

00:56:36.780 for coming on cheers Brett thanks for having me on my guest today was Kevin Dutton he's the author

00:56:42.120 of the book the wisdom of psychopaths is available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere check out

00:56:46.400 our show notes at aom.is slash psychopath where you find links to resources where you delve deeper

00:56:50.140 into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast if you'd like to enjoy ad free

00:57:01.620 episodes of the aom podcast go to stitchapremium.com sign up use code manly so check out for a free

00:57:06.000 month trial once you're signed up download this app on android ios you can start enjoying ad free

00:57:10.480 episodes of the aom podcast and if you haven't done so already I'd appreciate you take one minute to

00:57:14.020 review an awful podcast or spotify helps out a lot if you've done that already thank you please

00:57:18.180 consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think we get something out of it

00:57:21.300 as always thank you for the continued support until next time it's Brett McKay

00:57:24.360 remind you to not listen that way on podcasts but put what you've heard into action

00:57:48.180 you

00:57:58.100 you

00:58:00.520 you

00:58:04.820 you

The Art of Manliness - April 19, 2023

The Wisdom of Psychopaths

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript