The Wisdom of Psychopaths
Episode Stats
Summary
When most people think of psychopaths, they think of uniformly monstrous characters who lack empathy and conscience. But my guest says that those characteristics are just one part of the spectrum of traits that make up psychopathy, and while always having these traits turned up high is indeed bad when employed to certain degrees in certain circumstances, they can actually be utilized for adaptive positive ends.
Transcript
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brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast
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when most people think of psychopaths they think of uniformly monstrous characters who lack empathy
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and conscience but my guest says that those characteristics are just one part of the spectrum
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of traits that make up psychopathy and while always having these traits turned up high is
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indeed bad when employed to certain degrees in certain circumstances they can actually be
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utilized for adaptive positive ends kevin dutton is a researcher of experimental psychology at
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oxford and the author of the wisdom of psychopaths what saints spies and serial killers can teach us
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about success taylor show kevin first defines what makes psychopaths psychopaths and how they differ
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from sociopaths he describes how psychopathic traits can be especially useful in some professions
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in which professions attract the most psychopaths in the second half of our conversation kevin lays
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out his argument for why he thinks the apostle paul was a psychopath and how that's actually what
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made him such an effective evangelist at the end of our conversation kevin offers a test that
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assesses psychopathy stay tuned to find out if i'm a psychopath and take the test yourself to see if you
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are after the show's over check out our show notes at awim.is slash psychopath
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all right kevin dutton welcome to the show thanks for having me brett it's really good to be here so
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you are a research psychologist and you've written a book called the wisdom of psychopaths which is
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about the lessons that non-psychopaths can get from psychopaths and i'm sure people are like what
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aren't psychopaths not good people but let's let's talk about what is what makes a psychopath a
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psychopath i think that's a word we throw around a lot like oh that guy's a real psychopath but uh
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there's an actual that that means something so what does it mean yeah i mean it's true isn't it bro i'm
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glad i'm glad we've kicked off with that question i mean psychopath is one of these words i mean it's
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so ubiquitous these days that is almost losing its meaning you know and it's true isn't it when most
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people hear the word psychopath they instantly think of on the silver screen serial killers like
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Hannibal Lecter and in real life of course people like ted bundy but actually when psychologists like
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myself talk about psychopaths we're in fact referring to a distinct subset of individuals with a
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specific constellation of personality characteristics such as ruthlessness fearlessness mental toughness
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self-confidence coolness under pressure emotional detachment focus charm charisma and of course those
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trademark deficits in conscience and empathy that you hear so much about now none of these traits of
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characteristics is necessarily a problem in itself in fact all of them dialed up at the right levels and
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deployed within the right context can actually prove rather useful the key lies in context and level so
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for example imagine that those qualities that i've just outlined for you comprise the dials on a studio
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mixing desk of personality that may be twiddled up and down in various combinations right now if you use
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that analogy you arrive at two conclusions the first is that there is no one definitive correct setting
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which these dials may be positioned but rather it will invariably depend on timing upon the particular
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set of circumstances you might happen to find yourself in okay and we'll come to that a little
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bit later the second conclusion that you can draw is that there are certain jobs or professions which by
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their very nature demand that some of these mixing desk dials be turned up just a little bit higher than
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average demand what we might call some precision engineered psychopathy okay so for example
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imagine you've got the skill set to be a top surgeon but that you lack the ability to emotionally
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disengage from the person that you're operating on you're not going to cut it are you well quite
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literally imagine you've got the skill set to be a top lawyer but that you lack that almost pathological
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self-confidence and narcissism to be the center of attention in the middle of a packed courtroom again
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it's not going to work is it imagine you've got the strategic and financial smarts to be a top
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business person but you lack the ruthlessness to fire someone if they're underperforming or the
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coolness under pressure to ride out a storm or the sheer balls necessary to take a calculated risk
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when appropriate now those characteristics that i've just outlined for you there ruthlessness
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fearlessness self-confidence coolness under pressure and emotional detachment comprise five
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core characteristics of the psychopathic personality so you can see where the title of the book was coming
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from i wouldn't say that those characteristics those psychopathic characteristics were necessarily
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dysfunctional in those particular contexts in those particular professions they can be but it all if we go
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back to that mixing desk dial analogy it all comes down to the context in which the personality traits are
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used the combination in which they're used in the levels at which they're dialed up and of course the
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intention with which they're used so that's basically what a psychopath is is somebody who's high on those
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characteristics they're not necessarily bad as you can see in some professions those kinds of
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characteristics will predispose you to success in forensic settings in case you're wondering about that
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and how you might be diagnosed as a psychopath well in forensic settings it's kind of different
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story if you're referred to a psychiatrist a forensic psychiatrist or a clinical psychologist say within a
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prison setting you are diagnosed as a psychopath usually by being given a test called the psychopathy
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checklist which is devised by the father of modern psychopathy research bob hair
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canadian famous canadian psychologist and of a maximum score of 40 on that test it's usually around
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a cutoff of 30 that you need to score above in order to be diagnosed as a psychopath in general
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terms in terms of if we're diagnosing or we're rating people within the general population to see where they
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might figure on the psychopathic spectrum we use other kinds of tests brett but in forensic settings
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it tends to be the hair checklist which is the standard instrument of choice and if you're
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interested perhaps a bit later on i've devised i've devised my own test actually which is a very
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accurate test only lasts about two minutes to see where you are on the psychopathic spectrum so if
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we've got time a little bit later on we can do it we can see where you are and perhaps where your
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listeners are as well so you'll need a pen and paper or a mobile phone to keep a track of your score as
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we're going through it but uh but yeah if we've got time a bit later on we can do it all right yeah
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we'll definitely do i want to see if i'm a psychopath so psychopathy it's a personality
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disorder it's not like depression or anxiety where those are like mood disorders and it's a cluster of
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different things it's not just one thing it's a whole bunch of different things there's also a
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diagnosis that you write about anti-social personality disorder that's similar to psychopathy
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how are they similar but how are they different yeah many people confuse aspd anti-social personality
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disorder with psychopathic personality disorder um and also in the mix is sociopathy okay so it's
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really interesting this because i tell you what let me give you a demonstration sort of show rather
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than tell imagine that you met me in a bar right and say you i don't know bumped into me in a bar
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spilt your drink over me annoyed me in some way something like that if i was somebody say with
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anti-social personality disorder which is basically akin to sociopathy or what we might call secondary
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psychopathy i might react very violently to that i might instantly smash a bottle over your head i might
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punch you um i might be instantly violent towards you i might then be arrested taken off to the police
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station and later on i might regret my actions so in other words what i've done i've reacted to that
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situation in a very impulsive volatile way and that tends to epitomize and characterize anti-social
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personality disorder sufferers or people with sociopathy the two are pretty much interchangeable
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however if i was somebody who was what we might call a primary psychopath i might not react at all
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however if perhaps i saw that when you spilt your drink over me you had a wallet full of twenty dollar
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bills then what i might do is i might wait for the bar to close or i might wait for you to leave
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and then i might you know approach you outside down a dark alley put a knife in you
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for your trouble and take your wallet and disappear but i would do it in a very calculated premeditated
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cool calm and collected way so the main difference between a psychopath and someone with aspd or sociopathy
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or what we might call secondary psychopathy brett is that psychopaths tend to respond and sociopaths or
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aspd sufferers tend to react you know there was one psychopath a primary psychopath who i once
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interviewed who put it really well and he said professor dutton i didn't really ever set out to hurt
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anybody it was just collateral damage so in other words if i want something you've got and you get in
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my way then you might get hurt so psychopathic violence is what we call instrumental brett it's a
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means to an end whereas sociopathic violence tends to be more reactive to the situation sociopaths tend
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to have more of a conscience they do experience remorse whereas psychopaths as i say are very premeditated
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very instrumental very cold and emotionless reptilian you might say and don't have that remorse and
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empathy so that's the difference between the two but generally speaking brett when journalists or say
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non-scientific writers use the term sociopath and psychopath they do use them interchangeably
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okay but there is a difference what percentage of the population might be labeled as psychopaths
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yeah it's um roughly about one percent of the population there's um a slight difference in
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estimates but it's usually estimated between three quarters of a percent and about one and a
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half percent so the average being about one percent oh so okay about one percent of the population
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are psychopathic what percentage of criminals are psychopathic yeah more there's more criminals that
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are psychopathic brett roughly between 15 to 20 percent in a general kind of prison environment
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would be psychopathic but of course you know the other thing about that is we don't know that they're
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the criminals that have been caught right and this has always been you know an issue that i've brought
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up you know we don't know how many criminals out there that haven't been caught a psychopathic
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because they're the good ones so um although i don't mean good they're the ones who evaded
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detection so roughly about 15 to 20 percent of incarcerated criminals are psychopaths but if we
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take the view that actually the really skilled criminals haven't been caught yet it's impossible
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to put a number on it so i've read these of course this is anecdotal what i've read but from
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psychologists and counselors and therapists that they've actually seen an uptick in the number of
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people coming to them with personality disorders so it could be borderline personality disorder
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narcissistic personality disorder is something similar going on with psychopaths well it's remained
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pretty stable i mean there's different kinds of i mean it is important to remember that when we talk
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about someone who's who's one percent of the population we're talking about like you know genuine
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pure what we might call criminal psychopaths i mean there's other it's interesting actually that um
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you know studies have been done in the corporate sphere and actually the estimates in the corporate
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sphere are actually higher studies have shown the data comes out as a little bit higher of the
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incidence of psychopathy and the corporate or business sphere than in the general population
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so estimates in the corporate sphere vary from between four to twelve percent which is probably not
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going to come a surprise to too many of the listeners but i mean i think generally speaking
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and you know psychologists like myself have this conversation i think you know if you look at
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society in general and you compare it today to maybe how it was say 30 or 40 years ago i would say that
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certainly society in general might be considered further along the psychopathic spectrum than it might
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have been a few years ago i think you know look stating the obvious i think social media has got quite a bit
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to do with that the anonymity of social media but also the pace of life has become much faster
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everything from you know household objects to friends have become disposable and transient
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so you know in general it wouldn't surprise me i don't have the figures off the top of my head about
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any upticks in psychopathic personality disorder but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if people are
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generally scoring higher on tests of psychopathy than they say would have done say 30 years ago
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so you mentioned that a disproportionate amount of people who work in the corporate world are
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psychopaths but a surprising one so you've looked at the correlation between career fields and psychopathy
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and clergymen tend to rate high on psychopathy what's going on there do you think
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well you tell me um when um yeah you're referring to a survey i did which became rather famous back in
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um back in i think it was about 2014 called the great bridge psychopath survey brett and i was on a
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radio show over here in the uk and i put out a call i actually put out a little test on the radio show's
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website pretty similar to the test that we're going to do a bit later on here on on your show
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and what i got people to do was to obviously fill out the questionnaire to answer the questions they
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would then get their psychopath score so to speak and in return they would let me know what their
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occupations were and well i didn't realize how popular this was actually going to be and it turned
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out that low thousands of people filled out this questionnaire had i known it was going to be so
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popular i would have probably done it in a more scientific fashion but um it was good enough to get some
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pretty good data and it turned out that i've got the uh of the top of my head number one the most
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psychopathic profession was ceo number two came in lawyers i think three was the media four i think
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was sale surgeons came in at five the police were in there at some point a clergy i think came in at number
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eight now at the time of course that did surprise me however being crude and being you know totally
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realistic about it the church is just like any other business it involves uh power structures and
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hierarchies and you know if you want to get to the top of that what it's pretty much like getting to
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the top of any other business the same skill sets are needed and especially when you've got a business
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where the merchandise is something ineffable like god and you're dealing with having power real power
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over people's lives which is um you know apparently you know backed by a divine being then actually that's
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quite a fertile environment for people high on the psychopathic spectrum who perhaps have rather dubious
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motives to thrive in now one senior clergyman when i was in cambridge once said i have to say
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one of the most chilling things that anyone has ever said to me in all my years of working in this field
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and he turned around to me and he said kevin i don't believe in god i'm just good at him
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and i'll never forget that brett i mean look i'm not hey we're not here to dig out church people
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right there's always going to be one or two rotten apples in any barrel but i mean when you've got
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people saying that to you is quite a senior figure in the church actually you tend as time goes on not
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to be surprised that clergy are uh are up there in the top 10. So what separates you know there's
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successful psychopaths like there's lawyers who are doing great neurosurgeons ceos they're not committing
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crimes so what separates the psychopaths who direct their those traits to i would say adaptive ends
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as opposed to ones who use them for maladaptive ends yeah you know well actually coming back to
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surgeons i mean you mentioned surgeons there and i'll tell you something quite interesting i was doing
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a talk a few years ago and there was a surgeon in the audience who came up to me afterwards
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and he said i think you might be being a little bit generalistic in including surgeons in the list
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he said i've got he's got no doubt he wasn't trying to defend surgery he said he's got no doubt at all
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that you know psychopathic characteristics are important in the operating theater but he said
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maybe it's a little bit more nuanced and he said he wouldn't be surprised if we did a study that
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we'd find that out of i think there's 11 or 12 surgical disciplines within the umbrella term surgery
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he said he probably wouldn't be surprised to find that there were differences amongst the surgical
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disciplines and we began doing a study with the help of this guy actually actually covid kind of got
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in the way of it and halted it so we should really should get back to it but actually it turns out
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that there are three of those surgical disciplines which are really quite high on the psychopathic
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spectrum higher than the others one you've mentioned is neurosurgery probably no surprise there you've
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got you know differences in distance between crucial capillaries and veins in the brain are in the
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order of fractions of a millimeter if you get it wrong you could kill someone or you could blind them
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or incapacitate them for life so you know you really are walking a high wire surgical high wire there
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and the second of the disciplines is cardiothoracic surgery again probably no surprise but the third one
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did surprise me actually although not so much now i know it and i'm sure um you're going to have people
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listening in who are going to get this and the third one was orthopedic surgery orthopedic surgeons have
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to do some pretty nasty things to people they use drills they have to break bones they have to
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crunch bones you know that's even though you're trying to heal someone and make them better you've
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got to do some pretty nasty things to them so neurosurgery cardiothoracic surgery and orthopedic
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surgery are the three leaders among the surgical disciplines but i think your question was what's the
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difference between psychopaths who turn out all right and psychopaths who kind of go down the take the
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the bad route you know what brett it comes down to something really simple as you know what kind of
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background you grew up in and you came from i mean let's this gets very complicated so i always use a
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kind of a simple analogy i always use an analogy of a bullet and a gun okay so let's say that the bullet
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in a gun is your dna right it's your let's say that's your genetic predisposition to be a psychopath
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okay now guns don't fire on their own right okay so you need a finger on the trigger to fire the gun
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or in terms of our analogy to make that dna become live um now that finger on the trigger of the
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psychopathy gun is usually some abusive or aversive incident or set of incidences in your formative years
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as a child so it could be coming from a violent dysfunctional alcoholic home broken family emotional
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abuse physical abuse sexual abuse you could have got a devastating rejection at a formative period of
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your life you might not have had a good education you might come from a very poor family background
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and you didn't have the right role models all kinds of stuff like that if you have that kind of
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background that kind of start in life and you've got that bullet in the gun then it's likely you might
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end up taking the kind of the criminal route especially if you are also aggressive by nature okay
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however if you've got that bullet in the gun and you come from and by the way this isn't an exact
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science by the way we all know people that have come from you know really really really rough
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backgrounds that aren't haven't to who psychopathic who haven't turned out that way and we also know
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people who come from very good backgrounds who turn out to be bad apples but generally speaking if
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you've got that bullet in the gun and you come from a really good family background a loving family
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background you have a good education you have good role models then you might take a different route
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all together the famous reuters headline once put it you might be more likely to make a killing in
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the market than anywhere else so it's pretty much background especially formative experiences in your
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background as a child that tend to interact with genetics well you even kind of to highlight the
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biological component of psychopathy you turned yourself temporarily into a psychopath with magnets in
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your brain can you walk us through that well i'm glad you said temporarily there brett i mean i think
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my missus my my my immeasurably superior other half might disagree with that but um uh yeah i mean it was
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um it was a a bet that i entered into with a very good friend of mine andy mcnab who's an ex-british
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special forces soldier who is a psychopath many people who are in special forces are high on the
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psychopathic spectrum perhaps not surprisingly and andy andy and i went head to head on a task to see
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who would be cooler under pressure and so what this task involved was being wired up to various
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physiological measures such as a galvanic skin response which measures your sweat rate an index of
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anxiety also your heart rate stuff like that all indexes of anxiety and we were sat in front of a
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computer screen which played cut a long story short some extremely horrific images uh very very gruesome
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images and we were then monitored to see where our physiological responses would end up and andy's
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were just flatlining there was hardly anything going on pretty much the gold standard test for a
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psychopath you know my physiological responses were going through the roof so you know if you looked at
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the graph at the end of it my physiological responses were like the new york skyline you know up and down
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up and down up and down whereas andy's were pretty much flatlining so that was stage one of the
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experiments stage two of the experiment was i underwent a technique which a colleague of mine subjected me
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to is one of the world experts in it called transcranial magnetic stimulation now very briefly for your
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listeners brett not to go into too many details about this if you imagine your brain cells as being like
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the hairs on your head well if you want to get a different hairstyle you basically comb your hair
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into a different style well you can kind of do that with neurons using electromagnetic pulses you can
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kind of give yourself an electromagnetic neural comb over so you've got a different neural hairstyle as it
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were within your head but just like normal hairstyles it doesn't last long if you just do it once
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it will soon go back to your usual style so transcranial magnetic stimulation involves putting a helmet on
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your head and you target various areas of your brain that you are interested in stimulating in my case it was
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the areas to do with emotion and empathy we needed to turn them down my colleagues subjected me to the
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electromagnetic comb over as it were and then i sat the test again in other words i looked at these
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horrific gruesome images and when i was looking at them this time whereas before i found them you know
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truly horrific it was very difficult to kind of not suppress a smile this time now my readings my
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psychophysiological readings still weren't as cool or as flat as my special forces friend andy so i did
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have to buy him a few drinks and dinner that night but they were dramatically reduced from the new york
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skyline that they were before and basically the effect lasted for about 45 minutes afterwards as well
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and you know people have often asked me what it feels like and it feels like you know you have five or
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six shots of jack daniels but without that kind of you know sluggishness or tiredness or lack of focus
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that you get it was kind of like you know you couldn't really care what happened but you didn't
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lose your focus i think i wrote at the time it was a line that people picked up on it was like my entire
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brain had been spring cleaned or like put in a washer dryer and had come out completely different and i
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remember afterwards there was a driving video game at the time which was in the student bar
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which i had a go at and beat my previous score because obviously i was whizzing around corners i
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wasn't caring somebody had left some money on the table to pay for a dinner they'd left and i felt very
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much like taking that money i didn't by the way it was a very very interesting experience so yeah i guess
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i guess i know what it's like to feel like a temporary psychopath anyway yeah so the psychopath's
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brain is different from a regular person's brain non-psychopathic brain we're gonna take a quick
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break for your words from our sponsors and now back to the show well going back to this idea that
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psychopathy can be useful and be positive you use this example and people are gonna be like this is
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crazy but you make the case that the apostle paul may have been a psychopath now we have been able
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you you haven't given them test so all we have this is speculative we're basing on the historical
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record but what's the case that the apostle paul might have been a psychopath and how that might
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have made him greatest evangelizer of christianity yeah well a couple of things that let me let me
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first of all pick you up on a point there brett uh you said that there's you know haven't tested him
00:27:56.080
there's no psychological evidence actually i have in a manner of speaking so you don't you don't just
00:28:00.820
have to take my word for this but you're absolutely right you know i'm really glad not many people ask
00:28:07.080
me about some paul it's one of my favorite topics i would have loved to have met the guy i mean there
00:28:12.180
is no doubt whatsoever he was a psychopath and very high on the psychopathic spectrum now i know that's
00:28:18.260
going to come as a shock to some of your listeners you know the founder of western christianity
00:28:22.160
before he turned into stained glass was a brutal narcissistic psychopath but he was and i have often
00:28:30.740
called saint paul the patron saint of psychopaths that's not to dig him out in any way i'm a great
00:28:35.940
admirer of saint paul it's just stating the fact so let me go back to how i came by this diagnosis
00:28:42.920
it's really interesting so the the tagline of the book wisdom of psychopaths is lessons in life
00:28:47.800
from saints spies and serial killers and when i first submitted to the publisher the publishers
00:28:52.580
were very very nervous about including saint paul in there because they thought it was going to
00:28:57.380
alienate vast swathes of of the public especially in america but i was absolutely adamant that i had
00:29:03.780
the data and i was very confident in this and it was something i felt very passionate about
00:29:08.500
and the publisher backed me and hence the the famous tagline so actually when i say don't take my
00:29:15.440
word for it when i was at university of oxford a few years ago i was surrounded by some of the
00:29:23.660
world's top biographers of people famous historical personages now some of these well all of these
00:29:31.240
biographers had studied the people that they were experts in for years and years and years and probably
00:29:35.800
knew those people better than they knew themselves so it suddenly dawned on me i was very interested to
00:29:41.500
find out where famous historical personages might feature on the psychopathic spectrum so i contrived a
00:29:51.180
way of doing this and i thought well okay imagine if i were to give a psychometric test of psychopathy
00:29:58.580
especially devised psychometric test of psychopathy that are used say for members of the general public and
00:30:03.260
we touched on that earlier imagine if i were to give these psychometric instruments to the world's
00:30:10.800
top biographers of famous historical personages people who knew these personages better than they
00:30:16.780
knew themselves and said hey fill this questionnaire out not on behalf of yourself obviously but on behalf
00:30:24.220
of the person you are an expert on it struck me as a scientist that actually i would probably get quite
00:30:31.000
an accurate reading on people but just to make sure for each historical personage that i profiled
00:30:37.860
i got two academic experts to do it and then i looked at the correlation between the ratings from
00:30:43.420
both of them and obviously if they were way out then you can pretty much say well okay there's you
00:30:47.880
know perhaps not that reliable but um actually i didn't find any that were too great a discrepancy
00:30:54.560
and saint paul was obviously one of the people who i profile gave two academic experts the questionnaire
00:31:01.840
to fill out on behalf of saint paul and he came in very high on the psychopathic spectrum and i mean
00:31:08.740
look it's not surprising first of all if he was alive today he'd probably be indicted by the geneva
00:31:15.200
convention for genocide i mean obviously before the road to damascus he was massacring christians in
00:31:22.200
large numbers so total lack of conscience there he had no concern whatsoever for his personal safety
00:31:29.040
he was constantly at risk of violent assault on open roads and in inner cities he was shipwrecked three
00:31:35.240
times he was estimated to have spent six years of his ministry in prison five times he received the
00:31:44.800
maximum 39 lashes any more than that and you're in danger of being killed he was beaten with
00:31:52.140
rods three times there was a famous incident outside the city of lystra where he was preaching and he
00:31:59.160
was stoned by an angry mob to within an inch of his life dragged outside the city walls and what did he
00:32:04.700
do as soon as he came around he went straight back in so he was a habitual lawbreaker as well no sense of
00:32:10.920
consequence or personal safety he was a cold and calculating political mover and shaker i think
00:32:18.940
very deficient in empathy he famously fell out with st peter in antioch where he called peter out to
00:32:26.440
his face he called him a hypocrite then in fact biblical scholars will note that paul had to leave
00:32:31.780
antioch after that and pretty much as persona non grata so he wasn't averse to riding roughshod over
00:32:38.020
people's feelings and sentiments and sensibilities without any care at all about them and no doubt with
00:32:44.780
more than a pinch of narcissism there's also the idea that he was a social chameleon as well
00:32:50.940
there's a famous passage in one corinthians when he says i've become all things to all people
00:32:56.920
to the jews i've become a jew in order to win jews to those under the law i've become under the law
00:33:03.180
though i am not under the law he says to win those who are under the law to those who are outside the
00:33:07.960
law i've become outside the law to win people who are outside the law and to the weak i've become weak
00:33:12.140
etc etc so i mean if you if you look at those qualities ruthlessness fearlessness narcissism
00:33:19.800
manipulativeness and a lack of empathy plus the high score that he got from two academic experts
00:33:28.200
who had been studying paul for years and years and years i think it's pretty certain that paul was high
00:33:35.700
on the psychopathic spectrum and you know when we look at the stained glass in our churches and cathedrals
00:33:40.100
we've got a psychopath in there he's also instrumental so in that verse you just quoted
00:33:44.620
first corinthians he says to the jews i became a jew in order to win the jews he says to the weak i
00:33:49.860
became the weak that i might win the weak so he does these things for a purpose absolutely right and
00:33:55.560
he's what i would call a good psychopath i mean he wasn't indiscriminate in what he was doing if we go
00:34:03.200
back to the mixing desk analogy which i told you about a little bit earlier and we look at those
00:34:10.160
kinds of dials on that mixing desk it's all to do with the right context the right combination the
00:34:16.660
right level and with the right intention and absolutely right that's why i find paul so
00:34:21.120
fascinating you know if i was god which i'm not i would have picked paul for that ministry precisely
00:34:28.820
because of the personality structure that he had if you wanted to spread christianity spread the word
00:34:35.080
in that kind of volatile environment that existed in those days you're not going to pick a shrinking
00:34:40.560
violet right no yeah you don't want to pick the guy who you know they get flogged once they give up
00:34:45.320
you want the guy who just he's gonna keep going back after he gets flogged he doesn't care you you've
00:34:50.320
got it he was ruthless fearless narcissist he had it all he had it all but this is the same guy
00:34:55.560
who wrote first corinthians 13 which is all about love right love is patient love is kind it does not
00:35:01.760
envy does not boast it is not proud so how do you reconcile you know saint paul the psychopath with
00:35:08.280
this guy who wrote this this great thing about love that people read at weddings and and the like
00:35:12.360
let me answer that question brett by reading you one of my favorite passages of love it's only a short
00:35:21.440
passage and it goes like this love true love real love is a plant that needs no watering it seeks not
00:35:31.280
to be sustained by its object but purely to nurture it love is blind not in the sense that it cannot see
00:35:38.680
but in the sense that it cannot condemn or desert or wither love is like a fire that burns in an empty
00:35:46.520
great it feeds only on itself it dances flickers and blazes from within now you might be forgiven
00:35:55.940
for thinking that that passage was written by one of the great romantic writers or the great romantic
00:36:01.680
poets of the 19th or 18th centuries but in fact it wasn't it was written by an ai program just a couple
00:36:07.900
of weeks ago with about as much experience of love as a turnip now i think that when we compare that
00:36:16.380
passage with that famous passage from 1 corinthians 13 that saint paul wrote um nothing specific in
00:36:23.480
that passage that paul wrote convinces me definitively that the author of it really had any any genuine
00:36:30.940
experience or feeling of love if an ai program can write a passage like the one i've just recited to
00:36:37.920
you then you know i don't think it's totally different from what paul wrote and i think your question
00:36:42.940
here actually flags up a very important distinction that we need to make when it comes to psychopaths
00:36:51.100
and empathy because there are two different kinds of empathy there's what we call hot empathy brett
00:36:57.900
which is basically the feeling of feeling what another person is feeling okay it's when we genuinely
00:37:04.240
feel what another person is feeling and then there's cold empathy which is the ability to cognitively and
00:37:11.880
dispassionately gauge what another person might be feeling and to act accordingly and there's a lot
00:37:21.340
of scientific evidence a lot of empirical data that suggests that psychopaths are deficient in the hot
00:37:28.180
empathy but they have a hell of a lot of cold empathy they're even better than the rest of us quite
00:37:34.080
possibly at gauging cognitively coolly calmly and dispassionately what another person is thinking and
00:37:40.600
acting accordingly and that of course makes them uh great manipulators great persuaders and so that
00:37:46.560
may well be what we're seeing here with saint paul in that passage i have to say by the way let me
00:37:52.140
again reiterate i'm a great admirer of saint paul i think he was a very very gifted personality so i'm not
00:37:57.740
having a goal digging him out here but i think given the fact that he was high on the psychopathic
00:38:02.300
spectrum i think quite possibly that this was more of a cognitive exercise this passage it was coolly
00:38:09.300
and dispassionately describing uh what he had perceived love to be as displayed in other people he doesn't
00:38:18.000
necessarily need to have felt it uh himself and and you know i always remember one psychopath saying
00:38:23.020
you know in order to know how traffic lights work you don't need color vision you don't need to see
00:38:29.940
the red and the green light you just need to know which bit of the light is lit up
00:38:36.560
and that very much sums up in visual form the relationship between psychopaths and empathy
00:38:44.880
they don't see the color of emotion but they know which bits are lit up if you want to put it in a music
00:38:51.500
analogy they see the notes on the page but they don't hear the tune or the melody so the fact that
00:38:58.460
saint paul wrote that very famous passage uh on love in one corinthians 13 certainly doesn't for me
00:39:04.200
contradict any of the scientific evidence that i've gathered that he's on the psychopathic spectrum
00:39:10.120
and it doesn't change my opinion one bit that he was high on the psychopathic spectrum of course if
00:39:15.700
you're a believer you'd say well he that's just revealed word he could be a psychopath but god
00:39:20.120
could still tell him this great thing about love absolutely yeah i'm not criticizing paul and you know
00:39:26.480
as i as i say i can absolutely see why paul was the right man for the job in that particular time
00:39:33.040
in that particular environment it was a very very dangerous world that he lived in you know christians
00:39:38.980
were in in mortal danger a lot of the time and his own life demonstrated that you know he spent as i
00:39:45.020
say six years in prison you know he was he was a real fearless adventurer and he had to be
00:39:50.880
in order to spread the word but he was a good psychopath because he needed to be okay so being
00:39:56.100
a little psychopathic can be useful if you're a you know a pioneering prophet type like paul but we've
00:40:01.820
also talked about how psychopathy can be useful in other vocations like being a doctor or a lawyer or
00:40:07.720
ceo but let's talk about some of the specific traits of psychopathy that can be adaptive for everyone
00:40:15.040
and one of those traits of psychopathy that you talk about is ruthlessness now a lot of people they
00:40:21.000
don't feel comfortable being ruthless but what can non-psychopaths learn from psychopaths as to how to
00:40:28.240
be ruthless but in an adaptive way yeah i mean i think one of the things which psychopaths are very
00:40:37.700
good at if we just factorize down what that means being ruthless brett is they're able to decouple
00:40:46.500
emotion from behavior okay so and this is something which a lot of us could do a little bit more of i'm
00:40:54.020
not saying you know actually when when the book first came out everyone said oh dutton's trying to
00:40:58.860
turn the whole world into psychopaths i wasn't at all but if you think about it a lot of us kind of
00:41:05.100
labor under the misapprehension that we've got to feel like something in order to do it
00:41:09.780
well that's just not true i mean if that was the case and half of us wouldn't get out of bed in the
00:41:14.680
morning right so that's the first number one truth you don't have to feel like doing something in order
00:41:21.100
to do it now you can split people into two camps brett okay let's say for example you go on holiday
00:41:30.120
right and let's say you go to the sea you got your swimming trunks on or your bathing costume on
00:41:35.520
and there's the sea and we you know what i'm going to say people you can divide people into two camps
00:41:40.620
there's people that basically run straight into the sea and dive into the waves right or you've got
00:41:46.900
another group of people that basically spend about half an hour getting in right they dip their toes
00:41:51.840
in they kind of splash they get up to their knees and then the wave oh and it's really cold and
00:41:56.580
and eventually they get in right whereas the person that just you know ran and jumped in
00:42:00.900
has been in for about 20 minutes now you may think this is quite flippant but actually there's been
00:42:07.120
studies done looking at this in real life and like well who experiences the most discomfort or pain
00:42:13.600
is it the runners and jumpers that go straight in or is it the splashers now perhaps unsurprisingly
00:42:19.880
it's actually the splashers that experience most pain because they're aggregating it
00:42:24.380
not only is the thought of going in exacerbating the pain that they're feeling but it's almost
00:42:29.240
death by a thousand cuts whereas if you get it out of the way completely you know straight away
00:42:34.720
in one go okay you have that one big dose of pain but actually it's all over then right so you
00:42:40.380
experience less pain if you just run in and do it and jump so what's that got to do with everyday
00:42:45.600
life well actually we are exactly the same as people on the beach there are psychological
00:42:51.760
splashes and there are psychological runners and jumpers in and if you just use exactly the same
00:43:00.260
logic the more you put something off the more you hesitate the more you come up with reasons not to do
00:43:07.540
something or procrastinate the more pain you are going to actually feel and that could be anything
00:43:12.920
from say firing someone to saying no or to say doing some chore that you've been putting off for years
00:43:19.660
or making an awkward phone call so just being aware of that and saying okay listen as soon as you need
00:43:29.020
to do something the quicker you can do it the less pain you're going to aggregate things start to change
00:43:35.300
weakness brett resides in the gaps or the cracks between thinking and doing when you think that
00:43:42.100
you've got to do something if you then leave it a long time before you actually do it basically the
00:43:48.980
germs of anxiety kind of fester and grow within that gap or that crack between thinking and doing and
00:43:56.460
that's when you start to get nervous and that's when anxiety starts creeping in so if you want to be
00:44:02.000
more ruthless if you want to be tougher if you want to be more resilient go with that Nike phrase just do it
00:44:09.540
okay because there's a lot of wisdom in it incidentally that was based on Gary Gilmore the
00:44:14.340
American serial killer don't know if you know this who was pretty much his last words when he was being
00:44:18.880
executed let's do it and that's where the slogan came from but if you want to be more ruthless if you
00:44:24.340
want to be more resilient don't think about it just do it decouple emotion from behavior don't leave
00:44:29.740
long gaps between thinking about doing something and then getting down and doing it last year I kind of
00:44:37.540
came to this idea that I'm actually possibly teaching my kids to be psychopaths in certain
00:44:42.000
situations so my kids play sports basketball flag football and you know when you're a parent you're
00:44:48.160
on the sidelines and you yell to your kids when they're on defense be aggressive be aggressive and
00:44:53.380
I remember I asked my daughter when I say be aggressive or a coach says be aggressive like what
00:44:58.780
do you think that means like I was trying to figure out like do they understand what I mean by that
00:45:02.060
and she said well it means you get really angry and you punch someone in the face and I said no
00:45:05.960
that's not that's not what I mean that'd be assault we're not going to do that and I realized
00:45:10.160
aggression when I say be aggressive I want you to think about the goal of what you're trying to do
00:45:14.340
in the sports get the ball right get the rebound and just go for that and you're not breaking the
00:45:18.700
rules but it's a proactive yeah it's not you're not responding to the other players if you jump up
00:45:24.480
for the rebound and you accidentally knock a guy over well that's that's fine you weren't trying to hurt
00:45:28.380
the guy but that was a byproduct of that so like in sports and I'm telling my kids like be aggressive
00:45:32.700
I'm kind of telling them you got to kind of be a psychopath like a good psychopath in a way you're
00:45:37.620
not reacting to the other players you're not getting angry your goal is just to pull the flag
00:45:42.240
get the ball and whatever happens in the process that's what happens you're not purposely trying
00:45:48.140
to hurt people but you got to do what you got to do to succeed yeah I couldn't put it better myself
00:45:52.400
I mean I call it the attack mindset and I do a lot of work in elite sport and I have never yet known
00:45:59.060
a great champion not to have the killer instinct not to have an attack mindset even when they're
00:46:05.200
losing even when they're behind having an attack mindset which is basically when in doubt attack
00:46:10.640
and I often use sport as an example of where psychopathic characteristics absolutely are justified
00:46:19.200
and the example I often use is say someone like Roger Federer one of the nicest guys you could ever wish
00:46:25.460
to meet off the court but you know when he's at Flushing Meadow or when he's at Wimbledon or when
00:46:31.780
he's at Roland Garros or you know places like that in a major final he is absolutely ruthless in crushing
00:46:40.320
the opponent on the other side of the net and you know as I say were Roger Federer to behave like that
00:46:48.400
off court in everyday life he'd soon have found himself in a very different court a court of law
00:46:54.040
but the difference in personality between say who Roger Federer is off the court and who he is on
00:47:00.580
court in the middle of a major grand slam final is drastic it's dramatic it's a huge gulf and yet
00:47:08.860
Federer would have thought nothing or any great champion Djokovic Nadal any any great champion would
00:47:14.440
think nothing of crushing the other person six love six love six love at Flushing Meadow in the
00:47:19.540
final of the US Open none none whatsoever you you're talking about in front of millions of people
00:47:24.960
who are tuned in worldwide you are completely crushing and sabotaging someone else's dream
00:47:30.620
why would you feel any shred of compunctional remorse about that and yet off court you can be the nicest
00:47:39.140
guy under the sun so you know and and and people's people often say to me yeah well sports not real
00:47:45.700
life of course it's real life there's billions and billions of dollars in sport and people can
00:47:51.340
be absolutely crushed in front of millions and millions of people their dreams laid bare in front
00:47:56.740
of the world and you're trampling all over them so don't tell me sport isn't about real life so I
00:48:02.400
couldn't agree with you more but it's a great example of how good psychopathic traits can be used
00:48:07.540
not just use they're essential in getting you to the top and keeping you there but yeah it depends on
00:48:13.560
the context and also how much the dial on it right you want to get so well absolutely I mean absolutely
00:48:18.280
it'd be bad in a different context yeah absolutely I mean like I said if Roger Federer came off court
00:48:23.440
in Flushing Meadow or Wimbledon and he didn't dial it back down he'd soon find himself in a very
00:48:28.560
different court of law but actually he's able to dial those dials up when necessary which is in the
00:48:35.620
middle of a major final and dial them down when he comes off court absolutely it's all about context
00:48:41.340
combination level and intention right so I guess the trick there is to learn when to detach emotion
00:48:47.300
from action and it's a skill you have to practice and you'll be uncomfortable at first but the more
00:48:53.160
you do it you'll learn how to you'll get better at it yeah that's one of the big differences Brett
00:48:58.360
between people who end up in prison and people who who are successful who use their psychopathic
00:49:04.780
characteristics to be successful and that is again going back to the mixing desk analogy
00:49:09.660
if your dials are stuck on max and you can't turn them down and they're just blaring out you know
00:49:15.820
ruthlessness fearlessness all the time you know you've got that soundtrack on and it doesn't matter where
00:49:21.700
you are then you're going to end up in prison pretty quickly but if you're able to turn those
00:49:26.560
dials up and down you know if you're a good personality producer then you're likely to be successful
00:49:32.880
and that's pretty much the difference you know if we use the mixing desk analogy between a good and
00:49:37.260
a bad psychopath there's some other traits what you talk about in the book fearlessness being
00:49:42.080
mentally resilient being mindful is another one so psychopaths often stay in the moment they're
00:49:48.020
really keyed in on what's going on but let's talk about let's do this test let's find out if
00:49:51.880
I'm a psychopath and maybe people are listening and figure out if they're psychopaths today all right
00:49:56.400
well what you're gonna need Brett you're gonna need let me get the test in front of me here
00:50:01.200
you're gonna need a pen and paper or you're gonna need like a mobile phone something you can record
00:50:06.100
your responses on okay because what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna read you out 11 items okay 11 statements
00:50:14.520
and these statements hypothetically describe you as a person okay and what you're gonna do
00:50:21.780
you are gonna rate them as I go through them 1 to 11 you're gonna rate them according to how
00:50:28.320
accurate a description you think each statement is of you and you're gonna use the following scoring
00:50:35.300
key okay so if you strongly disagree the statement describes you you award yourself zero points okay
00:50:42.440
strongly disagree zero points if you disagree you give yourself one point if you agree you give
00:50:51.120
yourself two points and if you strongly agree you give yourself three points okay so it says zero
00:50:57.280
one two three scoring key ranging from zero strongly disagree to three strongly agree okay you got it
00:51:05.300
got it what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna read you out 11 these 11 statements and you're gonna write
00:51:10.360
down on a piece of paper or type it on your mobile phone screen or whatever just keep a record as we're
00:51:15.440
going of what your score is for each of the items okay number one is I rarely plan ahead I'm a spur of
00:51:23.940
the moment kind of person I rarely plan ahead I'm a spur of the moment kind of person I'm going to give
00:51:28.780
you a bit of advice here Brett don't say your numbers out loud mate the reason for that will become
00:51:33.300
evident in a minute sure just write them down okay I rarely plan ahead I'm a spur of the moment kind
00:51:38.380
of person number two cheating on your partner is okay so long as you don't get caught that's why I was
00:51:44.780
telling you not to say them out loud you got to be honest on this test folks by the way whenever I do
00:51:50.600
this in a university with students who love this that question too is always the one where they're
00:51:55.100
kind of looking over each other's shoulder seeing what the other person's putting number three if
00:52:01.100
something better comes along it's okay to cancel a long-standing appointment something better comes
00:52:07.720
along it's okay to cancel a long-standing appointment just to recap Brett zero is strongly disagree
00:52:12.980
one is disagree to agree and three strongly agree number four seeing an animal injured or in pain
00:52:21.520
doesn't bother me in the slightest number five driving fast cars riding roller coasters and skydiving
00:52:31.960
appeal to me and number six it doesn't matter to me if I have to step on other people to get what I want
00:52:40.800
number seven number seven I'm very persuasive I have a talent for getting other people to do what I
00:52:48.560
want eight I'd be good in a dangerous job because I can make my mind up quickly don't think too long
00:52:56.520
about that one and nine I find it easy to keep it together when others are cracking under pressure
00:53:04.200
number 10 if you're able to con someone hey that's their problem they deserve it
00:53:11.800
and the final one number 11 most of the time when things go wrong it's somebody else's fault not mine
00:53:22.160
okay so you should have 11 numbers on a screen or a page in front of you there
00:53:28.280
Brett yeah or folks if you're playing at home what I want you to do is add them up top those numbers up
00:53:35.100
and you will come to a final total now Brett don't say your number out loud yet mate what I'll do
00:53:41.440
is I'll go through the scoring ranges and what it means okay where you are on the psychopathic spectrum
00:53:48.540
listen what we should say first of all here is we're not diagnosing anyone here by the way okay
00:53:54.300
this is not a clinical diagnosis this is just a general indication of where you might be on the
00:54:01.440
psychopathic spectrum okay so let's get that out the way now 0 to 11 if you've scored 0 to 11 on that
00:54:10.000
test folks you are low on the psychopathic spectrum okay if you score 12 to 17 below average
00:54:20.080
18 to 22 is average you can you can feel the tension rising can't you 23 to 28 you are high
00:54:32.100
on the psychopathic spectrum and 29 to 33 you are very high on the psychopathic spectrum so go on Brett
00:54:42.220
what did you get I got a six that's pathetic I'm gonna send you a few books mate you need to read
00:54:52.300
you need to read a few of those we need to get those dials turned up yeah a little bit we need
00:54:57.320
once you I can tell you've never been so happy to have done badly on a test in your life have you
00:55:02.940
no yeah I'm not gonna be James Bond for sure I'm not gonna be a spy yeah I'm a square I'm a square
00:55:08.920
for sure yeah six you are well you're you're you're you listen you're a saint you're a good saint
00:55:14.480
you're not even like St. Paul you're a good saint you're yeah you know you're uh yeah that's that's
00:55:19.800
one for the memoirs that is right but um listen I know I don't know if you want to do this Brett but
00:55:25.180
I'd be really interested to see what your listeners score so if your listeners can put it on Twitter
00:55:31.660
and maybe just put your score down and maybe say what you do for a living be kind of interesting
00:55:38.060
if you tag me in I'll give my Twitter Insta handle it's at the real doctor that's dr kev k-e-v
00:55:48.740
so at the real dr dr kev if you can tag me in put down what your score is and what you do for a living
00:55:57.880
I'll be keeping an eye on that because I'm sure there'll be some really interesting ones there
00:56:02.000
well Kevin this has been a great conversation besides your Instagram and Twitter where else
00:56:06.740
can people go to learn more about you and your work yeah you can go to my website which is dr dr
00:56:12.220
that is dr kevindutton.com and you can see a little bit about what I do on there so Brett I've thoroughly
00:56:21.140
enjoyed it I really have really great questions I am so glad you asked about St. Paul hardly anyone
00:56:26.860
asked me about St. Paul now as you can probably tell it was one of my favorite topics but I've really
00:56:32.320
really enjoyed it it's been fab it's been great fun well I've really enjoyed it too Kevin thanks
00:56:36.780
for coming on cheers Brett thanks for having me on my guest today was Kevin Dutton he's the author
00:56:42.120
of the book the wisdom of psychopaths is available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere check out
00:56:46.400
our show notes at aom.is slash psychopath where you find links to resources where you delve deeper
00:56:50.140
into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast if you'd like to enjoy ad free
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00:57:18.180
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00:57:24.360
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