The Art of Manliness - Tips From a Hostage Negotiator on Handling Difficult Conversations

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast

00:00:11.020 and resolving hundreds of kidnapped for ransom cases involving gang leaders

00:00:14.700 pirates and extortionists scott walker a former scotland yard detective has learned a thing or

00:00:19.740 two about how to negotiate and communicate in a crisis he shares how to apply those lessons to

00:00:24.160 difficult conversations we all have in our everyday lives in his book order out of chaos

00:00:28.460 win every negotiation thrive in adversity and become a world-class communicator and we talk

00:00:33.760 about his tips on today's show scott and i discuss what a red center means in a kidnap for ransom

00:00:38.220 scenario and how to create one in your personal life the immediate action drill that can help you

00:00:42.360 stay in that red center the importance of separating the decision maker from the communicator in a

00:00:46.080 negotiation having a battle rhythm why you don't give hostage takers the money they ask for right

00:00:50.640 away and how to structure a negotiation instead and more after the show's over check out our show

00:00:55.360 notes at aom.is slash walker all right scott walker welcome to the show thank you for having me so you

00:01:12.440 are a hostage negotiator so you negotiate with people who have taken other people hostage you also help

00:01:18.800 organizations who have had ransomware attacks how'd you end up doing what you're doing yes a great

00:01:25.100 question i don't actually recall the conversation at school where you know you sit down with the

00:01:31.600 careers advisor and they say so what is it you want to do do you want to be a train driver

00:01:35.700 a teacher a doctor whatever and at no point do i remember them saying hey scott do you want to

00:01:41.960 negotiate ransoms for for for people because it's one of those jobs you kind of fall into so to speak

00:01:49.640 i was a cop i was a detective in london scotland yard for about 16 years and towards the end of my

00:01:57.980 career there i got introduced to the world of kidnap for ransom negotiation and operations to help

00:02:05.180 resolve those and get the hostages back and i did that for a number of years and when i left the police

00:02:12.700 i went to work for a consultancy firm that specialized in crisis response you could call it

00:02:20.860 which ultimately was about flying off all over the world working with families and organizations to get

00:02:27.200 their loved ones and colleagues back who'd been taken taken hostage of being kidnapped and uh and a ransom

00:02:34.140 was being demanded are you still working with that company or are you doing it on your own now as a

00:02:39.600 consultant yeah i do more by myself now and over the last couple years particularly it's taking all

00:02:47.660 those lessons and themes and patterns and tools and techniques that i learned over hundreds of cases

00:02:55.240 over many years into the business world into the corporate world and also into people's personal

00:03:00.820 lives as well you know how can you have really difficult conversations how can you succeed in those

00:03:06.620 situations and just have better relationships and communicate better regardless of which area of

00:03:12.060 your life really okay so you're taking the lessons you've learned as a hostage negotiator and helping people

00:03:16.280 be better negotiators in everyday aspects of their lives yeah it's how to you know think feel and act

00:03:23.500 differently in a better way particularly in times of stress uncertainty overwhelm conflict crisis you know a bit

00:03:33.300 like the world we're living in right now and in a way it doesn't really matter what the circumstances

00:03:38.040 the principles apply or at least that you know underlying principles apply and then you can just

00:03:42.960 adapt it accordingly depending on what your needs and circumstances are so this is a world that is

00:03:48.280 just new to me i don't know anything about it how often does kidnap for ransom cases happen does it

00:03:54.100 happen more often than we're aware of that you see in the news the an accurate figure for how many

00:03:59.300 kidnaps take place each year is not really known because if you think about it the places in the

00:04:06.440 world where these kidnappings take place the government the tourist department are not going to say hey

00:04:12.460 we're the kidnapped capital of the world come and invest your business in your hard-earned money

00:04:16.540 here or come and visit us as a tourist there are probably 40 to 50 000 kidnappings a year worldwide

00:04:24.400 that's what we estimate probably only about 10 000 of those are actually recorded but when i was

00:04:31.920 working in london in the police we had about one a week yeah about 50 52 kidnappings a year there and

00:04:39.600 then when i worked in the private sector we were dealing with over 100 a year just us as a small team

00:04:45.400 doing that but the chances of you know the average joe walking down the street somewhere becoming a victim

00:04:51.920 of a kidnap is really slim you have to be unfortunate to be in the wrong place at the wrong

00:04:57.200 time usually they're targeted because they're high net worth or there's some kind of we just call them

00:05:05.260 bad on bad where a criminal gang would kidnap another criminal or a family member of another

00:05:10.120 criminal for retribution or to pay off some debt or for lack of respect or whatever maybe but for the

00:05:17.460 average person you've got to be really unlucky to be in the wrong place at the wrong time okay let's

00:05:22.580 talk about how people can apply the lessons that you've learned as a hostage negotiator to their

00:05:28.900 everyday negotiations or even just difficult conversations you have with work or with family

00:05:34.120 members you say and you argue that dealing with kidnappers is easy and i think when most people hear

00:05:42.420 that they think are you crazy that's the most like you're dealing with irrational people it's one of the

00:05:46.520 most stressful situations you could could be in because the person who's kidnapping is often

00:05:51.540 threatening the life of the person they've taken hostage why do you think dealing with kidnappers is

00:05:57.620 easy at the end of the day it's a business transaction nine times out of ten they have something we want the

00:06:06.280 hostages and we have something they want primarily money and it's coming to an agreement about how much is

00:06:12.180 that's going to be and when how they're going to get it how are we going to get the hostages back

00:06:16.660 i appreciate if you're the family of the hostages you're not going to see it like that but ultimately

00:06:21.420 that's what it comes down to and there's a bit of leverage we can apply there and ultimately

00:06:27.300 it's pretty straightforward whereas what the challenge is is is on your own side and this applies to the

00:06:34.080 business world as well it's when the egos and the internal politics and the competing demands

00:06:40.120 and the conflicting arguments and priorities all come into play we call it the crisis within the

00:06:46.620 crisis and you could see that in a lot of as i said business negotiations where a lot of the time will

00:06:52.440 be spent dealing with internal stakeholders who all want to have their say they all want a piece of the

00:06:58.900 action they all want to feel as if they're in control or they're dictating the narrative somehow

00:07:04.680 and i'd say probably 80 of my time on all of my kidnap and other crisis negotiations around the

00:07:12.220 world 80 of my time was spent managing the client managing their expectations their egos their emotions

00:07:18.840 their needs their wants the the challenges that they were going through and so at times it's quite a

00:07:24.820 relief to be able to get onto the phone with the kidnappers and uh and and come up with you know

00:07:30.140 straightforward negotiation so to speak but that goes back to the point you made about you know

00:07:35.160 irrational actors irrational people difficult conversations and i think one of the most effective

00:07:41.880 ways of dealing with those kind of situations realizing that actually it's not about me so to speak

00:07:49.880 i need to be able to understand where is the other person coming from what's their underlying needs

00:07:56.840 for example and it's that classic saying first seek to understand before being understood

00:08:02.680 and by spending the time bringing more curiosity than assumption to the table and working out okay

00:08:09.980 what's really going on for this person then that takes a pressure off you slightly and it means you can

00:08:16.020 then tailor your communication style you're part of the conversation to actually address that okay so a

00:08:23.860 hostage negotiation is it's a business negotiation and i imagine that's the value you bring as a

00:08:30.060 crisis negotiator is you're a third party of course you care about this person who's been taken hostage

00:08:35.700 but you're detached like you're not as invested as the family members who have their loved one and so

00:08:41.340 they're thinking oh my gosh i gotta do whatever i can to get this person back home safely they're gonna get

00:08:46.600 angry when the hostage takers don't cooperate they might say something irrational but you as a third

00:08:52.540 party you're able to kind of keep it cool and detached yes and i think that's a great way of

00:09:01.720 highlighting that if you can regulate your own emotions and identify the people's emotions you can

00:09:09.300 go some way to bring in about far more calm and equanimity and balance and groundedness to the

00:09:16.740 situation and yes by default of my position is coming in as you know a third party so to speak i bring

00:09:24.520 that naturally because it's not my loved one that's been taken but even dealing with my own kids or in

00:09:31.820 my own personal life where you know there's a there's something really i know triggers me or winds me up

00:09:37.760 actually initially i've now over many many years of getting it wrong being able to regulate understand

00:09:45.460 okay what is showing up for me now in my body my emotions and then by being able to identify and name

00:09:52.720 it that can somehow dissipate the impact it's having on me which means i can bring around more objective

00:10:00.920 rational thinking and decision making rather than some knee-jerk reaction and really when you think

00:10:08.260 about it it's a skill that we're all capable of and we get plenty of opportunities all day every day

00:10:15.360 it could be the person who cuts you up in traffic or is rude to you on the subway or it could be an

00:10:21.160 ego-driven boss there's all these moments all these pockets of time and situations where it gives you this

00:10:29.600 great opportunity to practice this regulation and if you can do that it's a real superpower in that

00:10:36.560 actually less and less things phase you so in your book order out of chaos you walk readers through

00:10:43.020 a process and practices that they can implement in their own lives so that they can be more like a

00:10:49.040 hostage negotiator that sort of objective third-party negotiator in their own personal negotiations

00:10:55.620 and one thing you talked about the very beginning is this idea as a negotiator you want to develop

00:11:01.980 what's called a red center what's a red center in hostage negotiation and then how can people develop

00:11:07.400 their own red center in their own difficult conversations a red center particularly in law enforcement

00:11:13.860 terms is the physical location where the telephone calls are being received from the kidnappers it's where

00:11:22.100 the family member for example is receiving the demands and the threats so it could be the family kitchen it could be

00:11:28.220 a hotel room it could be an office somewhere and that is the place where we have to bring order out of

00:11:34.960 chaos which is why i call the book this it's a place that's high emotion lots of irrational thinking

00:11:41.440 understandably and it's about bringing this calmness so we can actually come up with a proper negotiation

00:11:47.440 strategy and communicate it in the most effective way possible and my job was actually to bring about

00:11:55.580 that calm was to instill that in what is a really challenging situation and i realized over time

00:12:01.960 and many many many cases and many years was you know what we've got our own red center within us each

00:12:09.000 and every one of us and it's this place that no matter how challenging how many problems or issues that

00:12:15.680 get thrown at us in life personally professionally we've all got this inner ability it's like an inner

00:12:21.720 resilience almost that we have that ability to overcome whatever is put in front of us and if we

00:12:28.100 can master that mindset and tap into those resources that we have then actually nothing is really going to

00:12:35.660 knock us off our path again and just like anything it's like working on muscles muscle memory it's like

00:12:42.300 going to the gym you don't just go once and expect to get the body of adonis you have to practice it

00:12:48.940 and reinforce it daily which is why i was saying a while ago that you know every day life presents

00:12:55.120 you with opportunities to practice emotional regulation getting your mindset to where it needs

00:13:00.600 to be and developing this inner resilience this red center that actually you're going to find a way

00:13:06.320 through this no matter how challenging or how stressful the conversation the negotiation the business

00:13:12.560 presentation that difficult phone call with a loved one you've been putting off or whatever it may be

00:13:17.740 this uh idea of a personal red center it reminds me of the inner citadel that marcus aurelius talked

00:13:24.400 about yeah actually i never thought of it like that but that that that's exactly what it is and you

00:13:29.420 know what it's the only thing really now that you mentioned it it's the only thing i guess that you

00:13:34.980 have complete control over you can't control the weather you can't control the taxes you can't control

00:13:40.320 traffic or what someone is going to do or not do or say or not say but what you can control

00:13:46.280 is what goes on between that stimulus that trigger and your response and as you described it there the

00:13:53.800 the stoic approach i guess of this citadel i control what goes on within these walls here

00:14:00.020 and that's what you can you can become the master of that domain so to speak so i like that analogy

00:14:05.840 there thanks yeah so in any difficult conversation and negotiation you want to develop this red center

00:14:11.180 this inner citadel where your control like you're still going to feel emotions but you're going to

00:14:15.460 control them and manage them effectively let's talk about how we can do that what are some things that

00:14:20.300 you do to maintain your cool in a hostage negotiation especially in situations where you know there are

00:14:26.600 threats about killing the hostage like do you have processes that you go through to keep yourself

00:14:31.600 centered and in that personal red center yeah and again these these have been developed over time

00:14:39.180 and these are tools and techniques that i know work when the stakes can't get any higher when there's

00:14:46.700 a mock execution on the phone the family's in bits the threats are coming in the negotiation is not

00:14:53.600 really working that well for a whole host of reasons the money's not becoming available the hostages are in

00:15:00.060 poor health so anything that can go wrong is going wrong and as the negotiators the as the crisis response

00:15:07.420 consultant so to speak all eyes are on me or people doing my job to resolve this and so i can't afford to let

00:15:17.420 my emotions or mindset be anything other than really really strong and agile in the moment and so the

00:15:26.540 techniques i've developed and have since have discovered that they're grounded in neuroscience and

00:15:31.760 and what have you i call it the immediate action drill and this is something that i keep in my back pocket

00:15:40.080 even to this day you know the kids know what button to press or as i said somebody on the train to

00:15:47.920 subway or in the traffic and the first part of the immediate action drill is interrupting the pattern it's

00:15:55.280 so important that what i mean by that is something is said or something happens or you get the trigger

00:16:01.840 there's a danger you can just stay so focused on that you get that tunnel vision and then you just

00:16:08.160 get lost in a negative disempowering story that plays on loop over and over and over again and

00:16:14.160 interrupting the pattern could be something as simple as standing up and going outside for a bit of fresh

00:16:20.320 chair or going for a walk or going to the gym or having a glass of water or putting some music on

00:16:26.080 something to or it could be some breathing techniques it could be something to interrupt the pattern the

00:16:33.840 situation that you've just found yourself in and from that moment the second stage is about riding

00:16:39.840 the wave so for any surfers or skiers or skateboarders listening is imagine you've interrupted the pattern

00:16:48.080 and now we want to ride the wave and this is the wave that happens to us biologically chemically

00:16:54.320 is for about 90 seconds two minutes maybe tops we have this rush of cortisol and adrenaline and other

00:17:02.960 chemicals pumping through our bodies when we face the whole fight flight and freeze response

00:17:09.920 and so that 90 seconds at two minutes we want to ride the wave we want to feel the feeling and drop

00:17:15.520 the story it doesn't matter why we're feeding this we just need to tune in and allow that to dissipate

00:17:21.520 and if after about 90 seconds two minutes it's still going it just means we're stuck in a story

00:17:27.840 or some trauma pattern there but then so we've interrupted the pattern we're really tuning into

00:17:32.960 what's showing up for us riding the wave for 90 seconds two minutes and then the third step is to ask

00:17:40.480 better questions and you can only do that when you've regulated when you've brought the nervous

00:17:46.000 system into balance and better questions such as okay what am i missing here what's the opportunity

00:17:54.880 what's the learning or insight what else could this mean what could i be grateful for whatever happens

00:18:01.440 to be and so it's asking better questions because if you ask better questions you're going to get

00:18:05.520 better answers but you can only do that from a regulated state and if for some reason that's

00:18:11.120 still not quite working i'll just go back to do some breathing techniques such as box breathing which

00:18:18.000 is quite a a popular and an effective one where you breathe in for four seconds you hold it for four

00:18:25.040 you exhale for four and then you breathe in again but you hold it and you're breathing again for four so

00:18:29.600 you just repeat the cycle or there's the physiological side where you breathe in through

00:18:35.040 your nose and then before you breathe out you do an extra little in breath as well through the nose

00:18:40.880 and then there's a longer exhale and again these are just proven ways of regulating a system and i

00:18:48.800 would do this every time before i walked into the room where the kidnappers were going to phone before

00:18:54.480 i sat down with a family or the client i would do that so i could regulate my emotions and if we were

00:19:00.720 using a communicator because of a language barrier he was going to speak to the kidnappers i would get

00:19:06.960 them to do that as well either box breathing or the physiological sigh or whatever technique worked for

00:19:13.600 them so they could regulate they weren't stuck in a pattern and they were able to ask better questions

00:19:18.960 if we need to and the same applies to you know people's personal lives as well that the techniques

00:19:24.000 work yeah if you're dealing with a kid who's frustrating because they're not wanting to do

00:19:29.040 their homework you feel triggered you're like oh my gosh i'm getting angry here you can just do this

00:19:33.520 really quickly interrupt the pattern that might just be i'm going to leave the room and say hey

00:19:37.680 we'll talk about this here in a bit and then you can do the process of ride the wave ask better

00:19:43.120 questions like okay what am i missing here about what my kid's point of view is and how can i better

00:19:48.400 understand them and then maybe do some box breathing and then you can come back and begin the

00:19:52.400 conversation again yeah and absolutely and dealing with your kids for example or a loved one a partner

00:19:58.720 a friend colleague is you can look at it for you look at your hands look at both hands you look at

00:20:04.960 your left hand and you go okay this is the person this is their true self this is their identity them as a

00:20:11.120 person you know they're inherently a good person and in in the right hand you look at them and go well

00:20:16.480 actually this is the behavior that's showing up these are the unkind unhelpful disruptive so-called

00:20:25.280 bad behavior and it's about separating the two so then you can deal with the behavior that's manifesting

00:20:31.440 itself rather than what we generally do is we link both together and we attack the person as opposed to

00:20:39.600 the behavior and i think by separating that as part of that immediate action drill as well can go some

00:20:46.000 way to avoiding you know us jumping in as well making the situation even worse by going into a

00:20:53.680 spiral or a tit-for-tat argument back and forth which isn't really going to resolve anything i can see

00:20:58.720 this happening in a business negotiation maybe in a business negotiation there's multiple issues being

00:21:03.840 discussed and let's say there's one issue where you can sense that there's a trigger like people are

00:21:10.320 uncomfortable there's some tension there you can interrupt that pattern there with that issue by

00:21:16.320 saying hey i sense we're reaching an impasse here let's table this for now and then we can discuss these

00:21:22.560 other issues that are not as pertinent or not as heavy and then you can come back to that one issue

00:21:27.360 once you've calmed yourself down absolutely which is why you get saying such as well okay well let me sleep

00:21:33.200 on it or let's have a coffee break let's you know people can if you if you have a what i call the

00:21:38.640 sensory acuity if you can walk into a room or you're sat in a room for a long period of time

00:21:45.280 and sense actually this is we need a break it is the tension is getting too much something's not quite

00:21:52.480 right people are flagging the the air was getting quite irritable we just need to interrupt what is going

00:21:59.840 on here so we'll go outside for a bit of fresh air let's grab a coffee and we'll come back in half an

00:22:05.280 hour and it's something as simple as that you're right it may sound really really super simple but it

00:22:11.600 works yeah and which is why i always recommend clients now in business negotiations particularly

00:22:16.560 if they're face-to-face is have somebody in the room on your side whose sole job is to observe

00:22:24.560 they're not to actually take part in the negotiation itself their job is just to pick up on all the

00:22:30.000 nuances and the context and the the body language and what is not being said and the mood and the energy

00:22:37.520 because so often we can get narrow focus we get tunnel focused on to the the specifics of a

00:22:43.920 negotiation we can sometimes miss the bigger picture and those people who are the observers

00:22:49.440 they're worth their weight in gold because they're the ones who can pick up stuff and go well actually

00:22:53.200 we're not in alignment here there's a mismatch there's an incongruency between what's being

00:22:58.800 said and everything else i'm noticing we need to take 20 minutes out because we need to have a

00:23:03.360 conversation about this we're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors

00:23:07.920 and now back to the show that reminds me that idea of having an observer in a negotiation reminds me of

00:23:19.500 another point you make as a hostage negotiator one of the things you do is you have a team there's a

00:23:26.700 big team going on in a hostage negotiation one thing you do is you separate the people who are the

00:23:33.340 decision makers in the hostage negotiation from the person who's communicating why do you do that

00:23:40.220 commanders command and negotiators negotiate absolutely because if i'm the key decision maker and i'm

00:23:47.580 jumping on the phone with it could be anybody it could be kidnappers it could be the business deal

00:23:53.580 i have nowhere left to go i can't put any buffer any firewall i can't stall for time so i can't go well

00:24:01.580 let me check with the boss if i am the boss and not only that it allows even if it's just you even if

00:24:09.500 you're buying a car for example you could still separate the negotiating and the decision making

00:24:16.460 yourself which again it goes back to that point i made just now is well let me sleep on it i want to

00:24:21.820 think about it let me come back to you on that it's really important to build that buffer so you don't get

00:24:29.340 caught up in the whole emotion of it because we do make decisions emotionally and then look to justify

00:24:35.980 them rationally afterwards whereas because we know that well let's put a bit of time in so we can

00:24:42.380 make sure they're the right emotions and we're not making a decision in the moment out of fear greed or

00:24:49.980 whatever it may be and so by separating that idea with two or more people but even if it's just you the

00:24:56.620 same principles apply and while what this does it just helps you bring in that idea of you being a

00:25:02.700 disinterested objective third party you're trying to get to that as close as possible by doing that

00:25:09.420 yeah it just brings a bit more space and control and enables you to make the better decisions that

00:25:18.940 are going to be in your interest ultimately rather than agreeing to something and then you come off the

00:25:23.820 phone or you walk out the room going oh we could have asked for more money yeah or do you know what

00:25:29.660 we've been ripped off here which happens to all of us because we make those decisions too quickly

00:25:35.260 because we're caught up in the emotion and the high drama the negotiation rather than having some

00:25:41.100 time to think about it and so the idea is you need to have a plan whenever you reach one of those

00:25:46.140 decision points where you could get caught up in the emotions as the communicator and negotiator

00:25:51.660 you know doing it by yourself have a plan where okay i reached this point where i can see my emotions

00:25:58.540 are getting the best of me that's when i need to separate the two you know the inner negotiator the

00:26:04.380 inner communicator and then take a break and then let the decision maker do the decision making and then

00:26:09.820 come back and let the communicator do the communicating yeah and that could even be a five minute gap it

00:26:15.340 doesn't have to be five weeks you know i mean it's uh it's just separating it you bring an intention

00:26:23.180 intentionality to it i guess right i am deliberately consciously putting a firewall in

00:26:29.340 place now between this negotiation okay well let me i'm going to go off for half an hour i'm going to

00:26:33.900 come back and then i'll make a decision what do you do in the situation as a hostage negotiator

00:26:39.260 because i'm sure this this this happens there because this happens in regular negotiations let's

00:26:42.940 say you do want to put some space okay i want to interrupt the pattern here i want some time to

00:26:46.780 think about it but the other party is like no you got to make a decision now it's do or die how do

00:26:52.860 you handle that okay well we would have preempted this ahead of time and we can come on to that

00:26:58.700 later about what we call that and how we do that but in terms of it's just explaining well if

00:27:05.020 you want me to get the money we need time to do that and all the time i'm on the phone to you i'm

00:27:10.220 not going to be able to get the money it's a lot of money you're asking for we're a poor company we're

00:27:14.780 poor family whatever actually i need to go and speak to people i need to try and get the money

00:27:20.540 from them i need to raise the funds whatever it is so you're building in a narrative you're building

00:27:25.580 in a story a credible story as to why you need time and then you can go well do you know what let's

00:27:32.940 speak again same time tomorrow and that helps with what we call the battle rhythm of being able to

00:27:41.100 manage this over a long period of time without getting burnt out and see if we can buy time if we

00:27:46.620 can separate the negotiation from the decision making and it just means it's far more sustainable

00:27:53.980 and everybody stays far more alert and in better shape and they can make better decisions and ultimately

00:28:01.020 it's about the safe and the timely release of the hostages tell us more about this battle

00:28:05.900 rhythm idea in hostage negotiation yeah what it is is well when you don't have an effective battle

00:28:12.380 rhythm what that looks like is people on edge 24 7 every phone call notification ping on their phone

00:28:21.340 or computer they think it's from the kidnappers they don't sleep they can't eat they don't get any rest

00:28:27.580 and that's fine for a couple of days but after a week two weeks two months three months six months

00:28:35.100 it's just not sustainable and the longer that goes on without an effective battle rhythm people get

00:28:40.860 burnt out and make poor decisions and ultimately people can die as a result of that and so a battle

00:28:46.220 rhythm really is it's about a routine it's about a structure again this applies to the business world as well

00:28:53.740 is okay we're going to sit down and we're going to negotiate between

00:28:58.700 two and four pm every day and outside of that each side is going to work on their side of the deal

00:29:05.500 you know their offers and counter offers and and dealing with all the demands and threats maybe that

00:29:10.860 that are showing up but it also means people get chance to to sleep to eat to rest to think through

00:29:17.420 things to work out you know four five six steps ahead particularly kidnapping okay well we need

00:29:24.940 to start thinking about how we're going to get the money together and who's going to transport it

00:29:30.460 who's going to curry it to the kidnappers for example so that's really what we mean by a battle rhythm

00:29:37.660 it's interesting i didn't know this about hostage negotiations you'd think a hostage negotiations

00:29:42.300 they'd be resolved really quick but the way you describe it it can be a very long drawn out

00:29:48.460 affair it's worth emphasizing the different terms here the hostage taking that people think of when

00:29:57.100 we use that term they think it's like a bank robbery gone wrong always in a domestic situation where

00:30:03.420 usually a disgruntled husband is taking the wife hostage because i know she's having an affair with

00:30:09.660 somebody or the bank robbers according the bank that can't escape those situations aren't that common

00:30:17.580 so really what we're talking about is somebody's on the way to the factory in west africa or latin america

00:30:24.460 or southeast asia somewhere and a kidnapping gang want to take them and then we're going to ransom the

00:30:31.980 family or the company for money and that is what we're talking about really here and i said that could

00:30:37.820 take days weeks or months to resolve so the battle rhythm is just establishing structure to the

00:30:45.260 conversation that you're having yeah so you can have a sustainable negotiation which ultimately is

00:30:52.540 important because if you don't have it it can impact the efficacy of the negotiation which ultimately can

00:30:58.860 impact the chances of the hostages coming back alive and you can do this in your own personal

00:31:03.900 negotiations where you say hey we'll discuss this for 30 minutes and then we'll take a break if it

00:31:09.260 hasn't been resolved and then we'll come back to it you know 10 minutes later yeah and and well as i said

00:31:16.300 we'll sit down we'll meet up here in the meeting room between two and four o'clock every day and look to

00:31:22.140 work through this and then in the time outside of that each side will have their own challenges and

00:31:28.460 issues as i mentioned at the beginning they'll have their own crisis within a crisis so to speak

00:31:32.780 where they'll have to brief upwards they'll have to come together and work out what they're going to

00:31:39.420 do and all the challenges and all the issues and problems that can come from doing these big

00:31:45.020 negotiations and so it's in everybody's interest to do this well another aspect of establishing

00:31:50.460 parameters for the negotiation not only establishing a rhythm it's actually establishing who will be doing the

00:31:57.260 talking and who you will talk to because one thing you talk about in the book is a tactic that

00:32:02.780 hostage takers will often use they'll go to multiple parties and try to negotiate with

00:32:08.220 multiple parties why do they do that to spread fear distress dissent confusion which is why one of my

00:32:17.660 key roles at the very beginning is to try and get some control over those communications and so we say

00:32:24.460 it's we want one number one voice and one message we want the kidnappers and us to be speaking on one

00:32:32.140 number we want one voice on either side and there's going to be a clear message certainly from our side

00:32:37.500 to them one clear message we don't want four five six different people all trying to get involved or

00:32:44.460 trying to have their say all in these parallel negotiations because ultimately it confuses the situation

00:32:51.500 it can lengthen the the negotiations and ultimately threaten the ultimate outcome which is the release

00:32:57.660 of the hostages or in a business context the deal but you often see that particularly in the business

00:33:03.420 world is where well actually in kidnapping where people come out the woodwork they all feel as if they

00:33:09.900 should have a say or an involvement and sometimes i'll open up these parallel lines of dialogue without

00:33:16.540 each you know the other part of negotiation realizing this and it rarely ends up well you

00:33:23.500 know who does this tactic very well of you know causing discord and confusion kids do this when they

00:33:31.340 they go to their parents they're like hey dad can i go to the amusement park and then your dad gives

00:33:36.140 an answer and then they also go to the mom mom can i go to the amusement park and then you know but

00:33:40.220 they give different answers yeah kids are kids are they know about that they're the best best

00:33:46.460 negotiators going around and i tell you what if anyone's listening has got kids that realize actually

00:33:53.580 we want to watch and learn how they do it because kids are masters at it it must be an inherent thing

00:33:57.900 that there's adults we lose it over time perhaps i don't know yeah so something you can do when your

00:34:02.460 kids do that and they ask you a question where it's kind of like oh i'm not sure just be like well

00:34:06.620 let's talk about it with your mom as well yeah absolutely yeah you just nip that in the bud another

00:34:13.740 aspect of prepping for a hostage negotiation is this idea of bunch of fives what is that

00:34:21.740 yeah this is something i was alluded to a short while ago around as part of the preparation for any

00:34:27.900 form of negotiation if you can come up with a bunch of fives and again just imagine your hand the palm of

00:34:33.100 your hand if you can think of okay what are the top three four five objections challenges

00:34:41.180 opticals questions threats demands issues whatever the other side is likely to levy against you if you

00:34:51.180 can understand and work out what they're likely to be ahead of time that's a great position to be in

00:34:56.140 because you can then preempt and you can mitigate against them you could even introduce them yourself

00:35:02.220 you know they're the elephant in the room so to speak and you could just introduce them into the

00:35:06.380 negotiation and it gets it out of the way because if if there's a chance that the other side are going

00:35:11.500 to levy them against you it means that it's going to be playing on their minds some somewhere which is

00:35:17.500 why if you can have and we use this in a kidnap negotiation we want a conflict call we call it the 0.92

00:35:23.100 conflict call we want that as soon as possible and this is the phone call with the kidnappers where

00:35:28.780 they'll ask for say i don't know a million a million dollars and the family has got about

00:35:34.060 20 000 so there's a huge huge disparity between the two and so that initial conflict call is when

00:35:40.780 we're looking to manage the kidnappers expectations our initial offer could be i don't 10 15 000 and

00:35:47.740 obviously the kidnappers are not going to respond too well to that but it's far better to have that at

00:35:52.940 the outset than wait till you two three four five weeks into the negotiation and so this bunch of

00:35:59.260 fives allows you to get to that position and have that conversation from a place of strength because

00:36:05.340 it's not going to phase you when the other side suddenly come out with the threat the demand the

00:36:10.940 question the challenge the obstacle the objection and so it's time spent preparing for that

00:36:17.180 is time well spent in my experience okay so all things we've talked about so far the the

00:36:21.340 immediate action drill where you interrupt the pattern ride the wave maybe do some breathing

00:36:27.180 the separating the decision maker from the negotiator this bunch of fives this is all about

00:36:33.180 developing that red center that mental fortitude that you'll stay calm when you're in the process

00:36:38.620 of negotiation let's talk about actually just the negotiation process specifically you talk about

00:36:44.620 how it's important to establish empathy with the other party that you're negotiating with and i

00:36:50.380 think people can understand that when you're in a business negotiation you want to understand what

00:36:54.140 people's needs and wants are why would you want to develop empathy with a hostage taker who

00:37:00.780 is threatening the life of somebody i think it's worth emphasizing what empathy is not at the outset

00:37:08.620 empathy is not agreeing with somebody it's not acquiescing it's not condoning it's not even

00:37:15.260 necessarily being particularly pleasant or nice empathy it's a verb it's a doing word it's what you do

00:37:26.220 to demonstrate you understand where the other person is at or where they're coming from or what's going on

00:37:33.020 them in their mind or their position and people have a have difficulty with that because they

00:37:41.420 they they bring their own ego to bear in the in the driving seat and they allow that to get in the

00:37:47.180 way and they'll then be judging the other person where again it's really worth emphasizing it doesn't

00:37:55.020 matter if i disagree with the person in fact empathizing with the other side when we do disagree

00:38:01.660 when we have nothing in common is really really powerful but if i can do that i'll explain how we can

00:38:08.380 do that in a moment but if i do that if i can demonstrate that empathy it enables them to feel

00:38:15.340 seen heard and understood and this is not some kind of woo woo fluffy

00:38:22.140 nonsense this is it's grounded in neuroscience and it works i've seen it work time and time again both

00:38:29.100 in situations where high stakes life or death situations and in a more benign let's say corporate

00:38:35.500 environment if people feel as if they've been listened to and that the other side gets them

00:38:42.060 they're more likely to agree to your terms and suggestions and actually by empathizing

00:38:49.500 you're earning the right you're building the trust you're earning the right to then look about

00:38:55.020 influencing and persuading the other person to do something that they may not initially want to do and

00:39:00.380 the way we can demonstrate that empathy is first of all remove our judgment and ego out of the way

00:39:07.020 and it could be something simple as just summarizing where you think that the person is at it's like

00:39:13.580 okay well before we go any further is it okay if we just share with you where i think you're at with

00:39:18.620 this deal you think actually this deal it's a lot of money it's probably more money than you want to pay

00:39:23.820 right now you feel that actually we're in a stronger position here and you may even feel as if we're

00:39:29.740 looking to rip you off because we've inserted these terms and conditions or clauses in the deal

00:39:35.500 that you probably feel as if they're not really fair to you and this isn't the first time this has

00:39:39.900 happened this is the third time as two businesses we've we've we've been in this position and they'll go

00:39:47.180 actually scott yeah scott gets me he understands even if i disagree with him thinking well actually

00:39:52.300 this is all above and beyond it's a standard contract standard terms and conditions and

00:39:57.260 actually you've signed this many times before without any problem it doesn't matter about that

00:40:03.660 i just want to decide to think ah they understand me they get me and then you're almost given an open

00:40:11.420 goal in which you can then start to influence and persuade so yeah you can do this even when the guy's

00:40:16.300 saying i need a million dollars now or i'm killing this person yeah and it's like okay well

00:40:22.380 hey you know it sounds like uh getting a deal here pretty quickly is important to you so you

00:40:26.620 can get back to your family or whatever it is you're doing and actually you believe that we've

00:40:31.180 got the money to hand to pay you so we can get our loved one back and they go yeah that's what 0.99

00:40:37.260 that's right yeah yeah you've got the money we wanted otherwise we're going to kill them okay well

00:40:41.900 then we can actually at that point go well please the responsibility of the hostages is down to you

00:40:48.140 i know this is important i know you want this resolved but you must look after the hostages

00:40:52.140 and if you do that we're going to do our best to get you as much money as possible another thing

00:40:56.860 you do in a hostage negotiation is this idea of decreasing increase what is that and how do you use

00:41:03.340 that in a hostage negotiation decreasing increases how the offer counter offer demand counter demand

00:41:12.540 etc how that goes so say there's an initial demand for a million dollars and we the family or the

00:41:20.620 company they can maybe get quarter of a million that's the maximum amount of money they can get

00:41:25.740 and so we would make an initial offer of i don't know let's say 150 000 and then each time we we make

00:41:35.020 an offer we would do slightly less than the previous one so each time we offer some money it's less than

00:41:42.620 the other on the previous offer which signals to the kidnappers where this is going to go actually

00:41:48.220 they're not going to get a huge jump a huge increase anymore and the longer this goes on the less

00:41:53.660 and less we offer the challenge comes when sometimes the kidnappers will say okay okay this has gone on

00:41:59.660 long enough we understand where you're at you can't get this much money but actually you know what

00:42:05.340 what can we'll settle first let's say we're at um two hundred thousand dollars so far they've refused

00:42:11.260 they've declined that offer and they'll go okay actually if you can get 220 000 to us by tomorrow

00:42:19.020 we'll release the hostages if our last couple of offers have been in increments of maybe

00:42:24.940 a ten a five and a three thousand and then all of a sudden we're going to find an extra 20 000

00:42:30.940 overnight the kidnappers are going to go well hang on you've been telling me you could only find 3 000

00:42:37.100 for the last couple of days now you suddenly found 20 000 overnight well then they're going to hold on for

00:42:41.580 more and so it's a way of bringing some discipline i guess and some structure to the negotiations and

00:42:49.020 again as i said it manages expectations it sets the trajectory of where this is going to end

00:42:55.980 that seems counterintuitive that you wouldn't just give the money that you have available

00:43:00.540 because i'm not sure a loved one's like geez i want my son back alive so just give him the 250 000

00:43:05.100 dollars why wouldn't you just want to give the hostage takers the money they asked for right up

00:43:10.460 front that question probably gets asked on every single case um and the reason we don't do that the

00:43:17.740 reason we don't want to do that will you imagine if we paid what they asked for too quickly what do you

00:43:25.660 think is likely to happen as a result of that i guess those ask for more they'll go thank you for the

00:43:31.020 down payment thank you for the deposit now we're ready to negotiate i'm not only going to keep

00:43:36.620 are we going to keep that money the poor courier the poor person who you've managed to persuade to

00:43:42.300 bring us the ransom money we're going to keep him as a hostage as well and so what we want to do

00:43:49.740 and it's counterintuitive i get that but by bringing about this discipline in the negotiation

00:43:56.780 it actually shortens the amount of time that the hostages are kept for and so we want the kidnappers

00:44:04.140 to feel as if there's no more money left because in the business deal as well if you think there's

00:44:08.700 more money left on the table you're not going to agree to a deal and the kidnappers are no different

00:44:13.580 to that we call it squeezing the orange we want them to feel as if they squeezed every last drop of juice

00:44:20.140 out of us so they don't come back for more so they don't release the hostage and then they kidnap

00:44:25.180 them or family member next week for example so to come back to the decreasing increases technique

00:44:33.340 this would be like you're negotiating for a new car and you throw out a low number and then that's

00:44:38.620 rejected and with your subsequent offers what happens the money goes up my offers to pay more money

00:44:46.700 would increase but the amount that they would increase would decrease each time gotcha well scott

00:44:52.700 this has been a great conversation i think the big takeaway is from this conversation in a negotiation

00:44:57.580 or a difficult conversation you got to keep that red center that inner citadel we talked about some

00:45:01.980 tactics you can do to do that is there like one thing you would think that if someone started

00:45:07.020 implementing today with difficult conversations they're having whether it's at work or at home where

00:45:11.900 they'd see immediate return on investment i would say it's the emotional regulation piece it's any

00:45:21.420 conversation well every conversation you have now and you can feel yourself getting a bit riled it's

00:45:28.940 just pause even if it's for a split second and just notice actually do you know what i can really feel

00:45:34.220 that tension coming up in my body okay well let me just focus on that let me breathe through it and then i can

00:45:39.820 re-engage and the more you can practice that this can be a split second or one or two seconds maximum

00:45:46.140 by the time you practice this and i would urge people to then seek out worthy opponents i call

00:45:53.180 them those are those people who always annoy you and frustrate you or the situations you know are likely

00:45:59.580 to be testing because it's just a great practice to work those emotional regulation muscles and if you can do

00:46:07.420 that it means you're never going to get phased again in a negotiation when it really counts

00:46:12.940 where can people go to learn more about the book and your work yeah they can go to the website

00:46:17.740 scottwalkerbooks.co.uk and there's more details on there sign up for the newsletter and get a copy of

00:46:23.820 the book and and learn about my negotiation workshops and other good stuff fantastic well scott

00:46:30.700 walker thanks for your time it's been a pleasure thank you my guest today was scott walker he's the author of

00:46:35.980 the book order out of chaos it's available on amazon.com you can find more information about

00:46:39.900 his work at his website scottwalkerbooks.co.uk also check out our show notes at aom.is walker we find

00:46:46.620 links to resources we delve deeper into this topic well that wraps up another edition of the aom

00:46:58.540 podcast make sure to check out our website at art of manliness.com where you find our podcast archives

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00:47:27.420 you

The Art of Manliness - March 27, 2024

Tips From a Hostage Negotiator on Handling Difficult Conversations

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