The Art of Manliness - Tips From a Top TED Talker on How to Be Heard

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:10.680 Now, Julian Treasure knows a thing or two about how to speak well.

00:00:13.120 He's given five TED Talks, which have been watched over 125 million times,

00:00:17.240 including one on, well, How to Speak Well, which resides in the top 10 TED Talks of all time.

00:00:21.900 But as a former audio branding strategist, Julian got his start in the world of hearing.

00:00:25.460 And as the title of his book, How to Be Heard, Secrets Are Powerful, Speaking and Listening,

00:00:28.660 implies he believes that if you really want to be a good communicator,

00:00:31.940 you've got to learn how to be a good listener.

00:00:33.640 So that's where we begin our conversation today.

00:00:35.760 Julian shares why becoming a skilled listener is so important and the practices you can use to do so.

00:00:40.220 We then segue into the vocal part of communication,

00:00:42.840 and Julian shares the four foundations for powerful speaking

00:00:45.140 that apply whether you're talking in a casual conversation or on the TED stage.

00:00:49.360 He discusses what separates the best TED Talks from the just-so-so,

00:00:52.480 the breathing practice and posture cue that'll improve the effectiveness of your vocal toolbox,

00:00:56.460 and how to make your voice more resonant.

00:00:58.020 We also discuss the physical gestures to generally avoid when speaking,

00:01:01.160 including the placator, and a highly effective tip for refining your body language.

00:01:05.080 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash howtobeheard.

00:01:15.800 All right, Julian Treasure, welcome to the show.

00:01:19.120 Well, thank you very much. Thanks for having me, Brett.

00:01:21.120 So you're someone who's had an interesting career.

00:01:22.800 You founded the Sound Agency, which helps companies hone in on their audio brand,

00:01:26.740 and then you became a highly successful TED speaker.

00:01:29.260 So you have experience and expertise in both listening and speaking.

00:01:33.440 And in your book, How to Be Heard, you make the case that those two things are very connected.

00:01:37.520 And you start off the book by making the case that for the benefits of being intentional

00:01:41.880 with both your speaking and your listening.

00:01:44.200 And I think people already intuitively understand the importance of being intentional with speaking,

00:01:49.980 but they tend to neglect the importance of listening sometimes.

00:01:53.800 So what are the benefits of not only being intentional about speaking, but also you're listening to?

00:01:59.040 Well, apart from anything else, I think there's a huge benefit from becoming as conscious as possible

00:02:05.220 in the way we live our lives, so conscious of what's going on around us, noticing things

00:02:10.500 and doing things consciously as opposed to, you know, we can all go into this kind of sleepwalking

00:02:17.680 way of just bumbling along and not really noticing much.

00:02:21.180 So I'm a great fan of consciousness, and I think applying it to speaking and listening

00:02:26.460 is a wonderful way to enrich one's experience of life and also to transform one's outcomes.

00:02:35.120 So in listening, it's very, very often the case that listening is confused with hearing,

00:02:43.420 conflated with hearing, and they're very different.

00:02:46.560 One is a capability.

00:02:48.260 You know, hearing's a capability.

00:02:49.400 We can all hear, I mean, some people have got more or less hearing damage, and there's

00:02:54.640 a lot of it around, especially with headphone abuse.

00:02:56.820 I think one in six American teenagers are experiencing noise-induced hearing loss as a result of hours

00:03:04.440 and hours of loud music going into their ear canals and flattening those tiny little cells that

00:03:10.640 allow us to hear.

00:03:12.640 So there's a big problem brewing with deafness, but leaving that aside, hearing is a capability.

00:03:19.820 It's built into us.

00:03:22.080 You know, your heart beats, you breathe, you hear.

00:03:24.960 You don't have to think about those things all the time.

00:03:28.040 Listening is very different.

00:03:30.140 Listening is a skill, and that's a huge misunderstanding.

00:03:34.820 It's something that many people simply don't think about.

00:03:39.340 This is a skill that you can practice, you can improve, you can master, and there are enormous

00:03:47.340 benefits to becoming a masterful, really excellent listener in life.

00:03:54.620 I mean, obviously in relationships.

00:03:56.900 I mean, what's the most common complaint in relationships?

00:03:59.860 He or she never listens to me.

00:04:01.300 We feel hurt when people don't listen to us, and yet, how much listening do we do?

00:04:07.840 So relationships, absolutely fundamental.

00:04:11.440 And things like leadership.

00:04:13.880 I mean, how can you lead people if you don't listen to them and understand them and know

00:04:18.640 what makes them tick?

00:04:19.660 And, of course, conscious listening is always the doorway to understanding.

00:04:25.540 And then selling.

00:04:27.180 Any great salesperson will tell you that the most important part of a sales conversation

00:04:31.540 is the listening.

00:04:32.980 And I was just saying, actually, today, there's a piece of research that was done a couple

00:04:38.040 of years ago where they found that the ideal proportions in a sales conversation of speaking

00:04:43.580 to listening are something like 40 speaking to 60 listening, give or take, not the other

00:04:50.060 way around.

00:04:51.300 And so many of us, when we're trying to persuade somebody of something, we go, yetta, yetta,

00:04:56.240 yetta, yetta, and hardly give the other person the chance to get a word in. 0.87

00:05:00.360 And that's not so effective.

00:05:01.620 So listening is a fundamental part of human connection, of relationship, and of making

00:05:09.560 happen the things you want to happen in life.

00:05:12.740 And yet, so many of us ignore it.

00:05:16.640 Yeah, so to be heard, you have to hear.

00:05:18.420 Exactly, yes.

00:05:19.560 I mean, the basis of my work, really, is that speaking and listening are in a circular relationship.

00:05:27.320 So it's not a straight line, I speak, you listen.

00:05:30.200 It's a circle all the time, organic, continuous circle, because the way I speak affects the

00:05:35.940 way you listen, the way you listen affects the way I speak, and the way I speak affects

00:05:39.940 the way you speak as well.

00:05:41.440 And the way I listen affects the way you listen, and vice versa.

00:05:44.160 So there's all this stuff going on the whole time in a conversation, particularly face-to-face.

00:05:50.700 But even as we're speaking now, I mean, I can't see you, but I'm listening to what you say,

00:05:56.100 and the way you respond to me will affect the way I respond to you, and so forth.

00:06:00.880 So it's really fundamental as part of communication to be listening.

00:06:08.860 And yet, so many of us are wrapped up, and there's a couple of human capabilities or tendencies

00:06:16.060 which so get in the way of effective listening.

00:06:20.660 One is looking good.

00:06:22.660 So it's, you know, that gives rise to things like what I call speech writing.

00:06:28.320 So instead of listening to you in a conversation, I would be thinking about my next brilliant

00:06:33.740 bit of monologue, and really, you know, not paying much attention to this inconvenient

00:06:38.560 noise that's going on in front of me, which is you talking.

00:06:41.480 So speech writing is a pretty disrespectful way to treat other people.

00:06:45.680 And it tends to give rise to the sort of non sequitur where you go, anyway, never mind

00:06:51.060 that.

00:06:51.560 Now let's talk about this, what I want to talk about.

00:06:53.780 And people feel pretty marginalized and upset if you do that kind of thing to them.

00:06:58.820 So looking good can really get in the way of effective listening, which is a very generous,

00:07:05.980 calm state to be in without all that stuff going on.

00:07:10.460 I mean, of course, it is difficult.

00:07:11.540 Listening is not easy because you think far faster than people can speak.

00:07:16.560 You know, people speak at maybe 120 words a minute.

00:07:19.220 We think much faster than that.

00:07:21.760 So if you're being with the person as they're speaking, you're having to slow your thinking

00:07:27.560 right down, or you can train yourself to be thinking productively and in an involved

00:07:34.840 way, as opposed to going off and, oh, wonder what I might have for dinner tonight, you know,

00:07:39.840 which we can do, you know, we can leave a conversation and, and just be listening to

00:07:45.580 the old blah, blah, blah.

00:07:46.740 Well, what did you just say?

00:07:48.500 So listening is challenging, but it's a wonderful thing if we can get there.

00:07:53.320 And then the other big thing that gets in the way of listening, even more than looking

00:07:57.520 good, of course, is being right.

00:08:00.360 Being right, being right, such a tendency in modern society now always has been to a degree.

00:08:07.580 So we have to be careful about that because being right can really damage our connection

00:08:14.800 with other people if we're just overriding them, dogmatism.

00:08:18.480 So listening, speaking, circular relationship, and it does require work in order to become

00:08:27.500 good at both of them, because there are obstacles within us and there are obstacles in society,

00:08:33.800 of course.

00:08:34.420 And it's very important to be open to different listening positions and to understand that

00:08:40.000 people are all different.

00:08:41.440 I mean, one of the most important things in the book and in all of my work is a potentially

00:08:47.500 transformative realization, which is that everybody's listening is unique.

00:08:55.260 It's as unique as your fingerprints, your voice print, your irises.

00:09:00.340 Nobody listens like you do.

00:09:02.440 And it's a huge and very common mistake to make that people think everybody listens like

00:09:07.900 I do.

00:09:08.320 So you speak in the way you'd like to be heard, you know, speak in the way you'd like

00:09:12.780 to receive.

00:09:14.300 But it's not true because we listen through all of these filters and the filters are different

00:09:21.600 for each person.

00:09:22.420 You've come a different road to this conversation today than I have, Brett, and you're listening

00:09:28.280 in a different way.

00:09:29.540 I mean, you know, apart from anything else, you're American, I'm British.

00:09:32.580 I mean, there are many, many things you can think of, you know, the culture we're born

00:09:36.380 into, the language we speak, the values, attitudes, beliefs that we accrete along the way from

00:09:43.720 teachers, parents, role models, friends, and so forth.

00:09:47.800 And then situationally, we may have different intentions or expectations going on.

00:09:53.840 We may have emotions going on.

00:09:55.760 I mean, we all know we listen in a very different way.

00:09:57.740 If we're really upset or if we're really happy, that changes our listening.

00:10:03.280 Listening changes over time, depending on have you eaten?

00:10:07.040 What's the time of day?

00:10:08.140 Are you tired?

00:10:09.300 You know, I often get the graveyard slot at events when I speak on stage, which is just

00:10:15.620 after lunch because they think, oh, he can cope with that.

00:10:18.400 He's a TED speaker.

00:10:19.220 And, you know, you have to work harder at that one because everybody's just had lunch and

00:10:25.640 the blood's all gone to the gut and they're all a bit sleepy and so forth.

00:10:29.560 Very different from listening at 10 in the morning after they've all had coffee or two,

00:10:34.840 or at five in the afternoon when they all want to go home.

00:10:38.720 So listening changes over time and from person to person.

00:10:42.800 And so the corollary of that really important transformative understanding that everybody's

00:10:49.720 listening is unique.

00:10:50.820 The corollary of that is that you always speak into a unique listening, whether it's one person

00:10:57.680 or a thousand people, there's a listening you're speaking into.

00:11:02.760 And if you can start to ask yourself the question, what's the listening I'm speaking into?

00:11:08.920 Just practice becoming sensitive to it.

00:11:11.180 That's how you can hit the bullseye instead of missing the target altogether, because a

00:11:16.860 lot of misspeaking or ineffective communication is simply because somebody hasn't tweaked, hasn't

00:11:24.920 appreciated the listening they're speaking into.

00:11:27.720 And that affects both style.

00:11:30.460 Let me give you an example.

00:11:31.400 It could be you're speaking to somebody who speaks very, very slowly like this.

00:11:37.780 And if I'm speaking like this and rattling away, they're going to feel pressured, uncomfortable

00:11:43.460 and so forth.

00:11:44.340 It's natural that, you know, it's part of the way you listen affecting the way I speak.

00:11:50.260 If you're a very fast speaker, then I would probably speed up a little bit in order to

00:11:54.360 be more in tune.

00:11:55.880 It's called mirroring.

00:11:57.560 We do it naturally to a degree, but it's great also to become conscious.

00:12:04.020 If it's an older audience, you might change your vocabulary slightly.

00:12:07.800 If it's a younger audience, the same might apply.

00:12:10.680 You might change the way you gesture, the way even you prepare and dress and the subject

00:12:14.980 you're going to talk about.

00:12:16.900 And so what's the listening is a really important question to ask.

00:12:20.920 So in the book, you give some practices on how to be more conscious with your listening.

00:12:26.500 What are some ones that stand out to you that you think if someone started using it today,

00:12:30.040 they would get a lot of bang for their buck?

00:12:32.760 Well, the first and easiest one probably is to spend a bit more time with silence.

00:12:37.600 We don't encounter silence very much in the modern world at all.

00:12:40.580 And I think it's really important a couple of times a day, if you can, just for a few minutes

00:12:44.620 to sit quietly.

00:12:46.140 And in, you know, maybe you have to go into a bathroom or a cupboard or something or a

00:12:51.860 bedroom.

00:12:52.360 They're normally the quietest rooms in the house.

00:12:55.260 And be with yourself for two or three minutes and let your ears reset because we do tend to

00:13:01.500 be surrounded by noise a lot of the time and we go a bit deaf and we get into the habit

00:13:07.140 of suppressing our consciousness of sound simply because a lot of it's not very pleasant.

00:13:12.440 So I think silence is a great way to recalibrate your ears.

00:13:15.320 And that's an easy one to do.

00:13:18.120 The one that a lot of people have said to me they really find powerful is a practice

00:13:24.180 for communication in conversation, really.

00:13:27.200 And that's an acronym RASA, which stands for receive, appreciate, summarize, ask.

00:13:35.100 So receive means actually giving the other person 100% of your attention.

00:13:42.360 Scott Peck said, you cannot truly listen to another human being and do anything else at

00:13:47.880 the same time.

00:13:48.880 And I absolutely agree with that.

00:13:51.500 And yet, you know, I challenge everybody listening to this.

00:13:54.540 When's the last time you put everything down and truly listened to another person?

00:14:01.360 When we're so used to partial listening, tapping away on a phone, you know, no, I am listening

00:14:07.840 to you.

00:14:08.160 No, you're sending a text that's different or, you know, listening while we're cooking or

00:14:13.420 ironing or doing whatever else it is, reading a book, watching TV, watching a movie.

00:14:18.980 That's not really listening.

00:14:20.460 Really listening is 100%.

00:14:22.100 And it's something that's really a great gift to give to somebody.

00:14:26.880 So perhaps all of you listening to this, after you stop listening to this and you, the next

00:14:31.840 time you engage with somebody in your family or in your work, put everything down and receive

00:14:37.840 them.

00:14:38.140 That means look at them.

00:14:39.900 Eye contact.

00:14:40.840 It's very important.

00:14:42.440 Now in the Western world, the dance of the eyes typically is the listener will look at the

00:14:48.080 speaker almost all the time, maybe 80%, maybe more.

00:14:53.120 The speaker will be looking away from time to time and looking back to check that the listener's

00:14:59.540 listening, but the listener is definitely looking at the speaker, point your body at them, lean

00:15:06.800 forward slightly to indicate interest.

00:15:09.740 These are all cues that show that you're receiving what's being said.

00:15:14.160 And the A is appreciate, which is little noises or gestures, which reinforce that, which show

00:15:24.440 that you're with the other person.

00:15:25.700 Now, you know, if we were on a phone call, we'd be doing a lot more of that on a podcast,

00:15:30.900 on a radio show or something like that.

00:15:33.560 It's much more polite to be doing what you're doing, which is being silent and listening.

00:15:38.420 I imagine you're nodding from time to time, but you're not doing the little appreciate

00:15:43.340 noises that we would typically do on the phone.

00:15:45.800 Oh, really?

00:15:46.820 Wow.

00:15:47.200 Ah, that's good.

00:15:48.580 And those kinds of noises.

00:15:49.620 And if you're face to face, of course, there's little eyebrow raises, head bobs, smiles, you

00:15:54.640 know, little gestures, which show you're engaged.

00:15:57.640 So that's appreciate.

00:15:59.820 And then we get to the S of rasa.

00:16:03.100 That's summarize.

00:16:05.460 And it's really kicked off with a very important little word, which I think is getting terribly

00:16:10.680 abused in the world these days.

00:16:12.780 That's the word so, which means therefore.

00:16:16.940 And it means there's a logical sequence here.

00:16:19.560 A, so, B.

00:16:21.400 Now, the reason I say it's getting abused is because there's a habit which started in your

00:16:26.460 country, I think, but it's becoming very common all over the world to start every sentence

00:16:32.420 with the word so.

00:16:34.320 And, you know, what's your name?

00:16:36.020 So, I'm John.

00:16:37.620 Oh, you're John because I just asked you?

00:16:39.620 Is that the way it works?

00:16:42.800 I've even seen, I mean, there are a bunch of TED Talks where people walk on stage and

00:16:46.200 the first word they say is so.

00:16:48.280 It kind of establishes, you know, maybe there's a sort of theoretical relationship we've just

00:16:54.240 had that's moving on to this or something.

00:16:56.120 I'm not quite clear why it works.

00:16:58.600 But it's unfortunate because the word so is a really powerful word.

00:17:04.340 It's a word that you can use to summarize the content of what's gone before.

00:17:10.120 So, in the long corridor of a conversation, you can be closing doors behind you.

00:17:15.040 So, let me get this straight.

00:17:16.340 What I understand that you've said is this.

00:17:18.440 Is that right?

00:17:19.580 Yes.

00:17:20.280 Okay.

00:17:20.800 Now, let's move on to the next thing.

00:17:23.700 Or in a meeting.

00:17:25.340 You know, we've all had the experience of meetings where huge numbers of people waste vast amounts

00:17:31.520 of their life, not very productively.

00:17:33.780 What is it?

00:17:34.200 They say meetings are places you take minutes and waste hours.

00:17:38.100 Well, that's true of meetings where there isn't a so person going, so, guys, I think we've

00:17:43.160 all agreed this.

00:17:44.480 Now, we can move on to the next item on the agenda, which is that.

00:17:47.460 And if that's not happening, the meeting can really just go round and round and become

00:17:52.520 very unproductive.

00:17:54.180 So, that's the S of RASA, so.

00:17:57.800 And the last A is ask.

00:18:00.940 So, it's receive, appreciate, summarize, ask.

00:18:03.480 And the ask is obviously ask questions.

00:18:06.280 Ideally, open-ended questions, starting with why, which, when, what, where, who, and so forth.

00:18:12.940 Questions that do not permit the answer yes or no.

00:18:18.220 And often people say to me, you know, I find it difficult to get people to listen to me.

00:18:23.900 And I always say the best way to do that is to start with questions.

00:18:28.820 Because if you're showing great interest in what somebody else is saying, it's a little

00:18:33.060 bit ego-flattering.

00:18:34.020 They feel comfortable and engaged.

00:18:37.140 And you can use the questions to steer the conversation into waters that you feel more

00:18:43.180 comfortable with.

00:18:44.980 Oh, that's really interesting now that you say that.

00:18:48.280 What aspect of that do you think would feed into this thing that I actually know about?

00:18:54.640 So, in that way, questions can really help you to get engaged and to have the other person

00:19:00.500 listen to you.

00:19:01.240 So, that's us at Receive, Appreciate, Summarize, Ask.

00:19:04.360 And I think it really can be very helpful to anybody who ever struggles to be heard in

00:19:09.460 conversation.

00:19:10.700 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:19:14.980 And now back to the show.

00:19:16.880 I think that was really useful.

00:19:18.600 So, so, let's switch gears.

00:19:21.260 Is that an appropriate use of so?

00:19:22.860 Absolutely.

00:19:23.700 Okay, great.

00:19:24.480 Now I'm going to be all self-conscious when I say so now.

00:19:26.820 Let's switch gears to speaking.

00:19:28.480 And I hope we can tap into your expertise as a TED Talker on how we can do a better job

00:19:33.320 of being effective communicators when we're giving a public presentation.

00:19:36.520 But I think maybe that some of these insights and tips you have can also apply to one-on-one

00:19:42.240 conversations.

00:19:43.540 And so, in the section about speaking, you start off with this acronym, HAIL.

00:19:47.440 What does that acronym stand for?

00:19:49.200 And can you walk us through each component?

00:19:50.920 Why do you think that's a useful place to start when you're thinking about crafting what

00:19:54.640 you're going to say?

00:19:56.480 Well, HAIL is four foundations for powerful speaking.

00:19:59.440 And I think it's really important to understand when you're speaking that it's not all about

00:20:05.720 you.

00:20:06.840 And to be clear about your intentions.

00:20:08.800 I mean, all sound, actually.

00:20:10.200 I mean, going back to my audio branding life.

00:20:12.720 If all sound has intention or, you know, created sound has intention or intention is very important

00:20:19.800 with the outcome for sound.

00:20:23.460 And so, I've seen, you know, quite a lot of people stand on stage and it's all about them.

00:20:28.060 They want to impress people.

00:20:29.620 Well, that's a bit transparent and people can tell if that's what you're about.

00:20:33.660 So, it's really important in public speaking to understand it's not about you, it's about

00:20:39.100 the gift that you can give to other people.

00:20:41.740 And it, therefore, is very important to stand on firm foundations.

00:20:46.880 And the four that I suggest in the book, in the TED Talk, and in all my work, really, in

00:20:51.760 my course, spell the word HAIL.

00:20:54.400 I like acronyms because I have a terrible memory.

00:20:57.040 Brett, that's the secret.

00:20:58.060 So, acronyms help me a great deal to remember what I'm doing and especially things like

00:21:04.880 this.

00:21:05.860 HAIL stands for honesty, authenticity, integrity, and love.

00:21:13.160 Those four things.

00:21:15.000 So, honesty, I simply mean be clear and straight in what you're saying.

00:21:18.620 So, not obfuscating everything by using big words.

00:21:22.940 I get quite annoyed when I read academic papers, for example, or particularly legal documents

00:21:29.900 with the way people write.

00:21:31.880 It's almost willfully obscure and it's almost proving that those people are worthwhile because

00:21:37.620 they're hard to understand.

00:21:39.200 Well, I don't see the point in that.

00:21:41.700 And there's been a big movement over the past 20 years in simple, clear language, which I

00:21:47.300 think is a great thing.

00:21:48.540 I love simple words and I think that's a really strong rule to use in communication.

00:21:53.380 It's all about getting the ball over the net to the other person.

00:21:56.920 And as I said before, if you ask the question, what's the listening, you may change your vocabulary.

00:22:03.500 So, honesty, being clear, being straight, of course, very important in what you say that

00:22:10.400 helps very much, I think.

00:22:12.480 The A is authenticity, which is being yourself.

00:22:16.500 Well, it's a lot easier to be yourself than to pretend to be somebody else.

00:22:19.720 You can be authentically yourself and yet do things that are challenging to you.

00:22:27.900 And I think a great example of that is Susan Cain, who gave a great TED Talk about the power

00:22:33.380 of introverts.

00:22:34.080 And I know Susan, she is an introvert and she spent a lot of time practicing and being 0.98

00:22:42.100 trained to give that talk.

00:22:44.640 Not to the point where every gesture was tutored or it became unnatural, but just doing something

00:22:52.200 over and over again to become confident enough to step over the fear and do it anyway.

00:22:57.280 Well, that was her authentic.

00:22:59.740 She was pretty scared doing that.

00:23:02.500 She does not enjoy public speaking.

00:23:05.420 I mean, she's got very good at it now because she does a lot of it. 0.57

00:23:08.020 But, you know, sometimes we have to push the envelope a little bit, but without becoming

00:23:13.880 inauthentic.

00:23:14.880 You know, that doesn't mean you have to stand up on stage and become a sort of rah-rah extrovert

00:23:19.540 just because you think that's needed.

00:23:21.960 So authenticity, very important.

00:23:26.120 The I is integrity, and that's being your word.

00:23:30.900 If you say it, it happens.

00:23:34.080 Well, if that's how you are in life, then your words have great weight.

00:23:38.420 People take you very seriously.

00:23:40.160 If you say it and it tends not to happen, then your words tend to evaporate like puddles

00:23:44.520 in the sun.

00:23:45.720 People don't really take you very seriously in terms of the weight of your communication.

00:23:52.620 And then the L, perhaps surprisingly, is love.

00:23:56.340 And I'm not here talking about romantic love, obviously.

00:23:58.660 I am talking simply about wishing people well.

00:24:02.480 Wishing people well.

00:24:04.300 And that is a fantastic place to come from when you're speaking, whether it's to one person

00:24:09.740 or many people.

00:24:10.360 If you're genuinely wishing the other person well, how can I help you?

00:24:15.920 And I remember reading, I think it was a religious author years ago, who was in the

00:24:21.420 habit of going up to strangers and saying, how can I help you?

00:24:26.080 Well, that's a pretty nice first question to ask, and it's a nice intention to have,

00:24:30.760 isn't it?

00:24:31.840 And I remember I was given a great exercise to do by an old guy that I used to know, which

00:24:37.980 is to, instead of walking around as we do, and it tends to be that you walk around kind

00:24:43.500 of frowning at people. 1.00

00:24:45.000 You idiot, get out of my way. 1.00

00:24:46.760 You know, we think negative things a lot of the time. 1.00

00:24:50.480 God, wow.

00:24:51.180 What on earth possessed you to put those clothes on this morning?

00:24:54.320 You know, this kind of critical monologue is going on in our heads a lot.

00:24:59.800 And it's much nicer if you walk around thinking two words and only two words, bless you.

00:25:06.480 Or, you know, I wish you well if you want to be.

00:25:08.920 I'm not talking religiously here, simply wishing people well.

00:25:12.020 And if you do that, it is amazing how after a while you feel that you're walking a foot

00:25:19.100 above the ground.

00:25:20.120 Everything's much nicer.

00:25:21.960 And if you meet somebody's eye, you might even smile at each other because, you know,

00:25:27.060 you're not frowning or grimacing at them or thinking something bad.

00:25:31.720 You know, so often if we meet somebody's eye in public, we look away because we were just

00:25:35.000 thinking a horrible thought.

00:25:36.700 I hope this isn't just me, by the way, who thinks these things.

00:25:40.800 But, you know, this is natural human behavior.

00:25:43.080 We tend to be quite judgmental of people who are different and so forth.

00:25:46.960 And it's important to counteract that with a practice.

00:25:50.280 And this is a beautiful practice to take on.

00:25:52.660 So wishing people well.

00:25:54.900 And if you walk onto a stage in front of an audience and you're focused on that, wishing

00:25:59.900 them well, I've got something to give you and it's going to help you.

00:26:04.360 Well, that's great for counteracting the nerves because it's not about you.

00:26:08.700 It's not about what they're going to think of you.

00:26:10.300 It's not about how much they're going to like you or respect you.

00:26:13.480 It's about, can you give them a gift?

00:26:15.820 And that makes life much easier.

00:26:19.100 Let's think about crafting a talk.

00:26:22.280 From your experience, what makes an engaging TED talk the most engaging?

00:26:28.160 What are they, what are like the TED speakers who are really able to capture an audience?

00:26:32.180 What are they doing different from the ones who, you know, they're giving a good talk,

00:26:34.980 but it's, it's, it's okay.

00:26:37.260 Well, first of all, in TED, the whole thing is about ideas worth spreading.

00:26:42.960 So a good TED talk, and I'd say that's true of most talks you ever give, you need to have

00:26:48.740 an idea.

00:26:50.040 And there needs to be an idea in there that's, that's going to move people from where they

00:26:53.940 are at the beginning to a different place at the end.

00:26:56.640 Now, it may be that you're setting out to inform, educate, inspire, entertain, who knows?

00:27:05.640 But at the end, they should feel that something's changed in the room.

00:27:10.220 You know, you've had an impact there.

00:27:12.740 And so I think that's the first and most important thing.

00:27:15.420 It's like the big light bulb thing.

00:27:17.400 The, you know, what, what's your main idea?

00:27:20.620 And as soon as you start thinking of ideas like that, there's a very important question

00:27:26.700 to ask.

00:27:27.200 And it's the question that editors will ask, you know, trainee reporters all the time.

00:27:33.220 And the question is, so what?

00:27:36.660 You put yourself into the shoes of the audience and you just go, so what?

00:27:41.300 Why should I care about that?

00:27:43.520 Why is that important to me?

00:27:44.960 And if you can answer that, then I think you're a long way down the road to a great talk.

00:27:54.220 Of course, content is the most important part of a talk.

00:27:58.000 You know, I asked this question to Chris Anderson when I interviewed him for the book.

00:28:03.100 And, you know, people who get the book, there's a, there's a website you can go to and listen

00:28:06.960 to these interviews.

00:28:07.780 And I said to him, what's more important, content or delivery?

00:28:10.680 And his answer was, well, they're both important, but if I was forced to choose, it would be

00:28:15.520 content because I will bear with somebody who's delivering earth shattering content in a boring

00:28:22.500 or amateurish way.

00:28:24.820 But if somebody's delivering vapid nonsense brilliantly, it's just irritating.

00:28:31.280 And I think that's absolutely true, isn't it?

00:28:33.040 I mean, we probably all had the experience of seeing somebody who's saying not very much,

00:28:37.020 but doing it really, really well.

00:28:38.340 You think, what a waste, you know, why don't you use that talent to say something important?

00:28:43.340 So you've got to have the content.

00:28:45.180 I mean, that is the first and most important thing for a TED talk or for anything.

00:28:48.920 And, you know, whether it's an after dinner speech or a wedding speech, content.

00:28:54.500 And there are ways to design that.

00:28:57.660 Certainly asking what's the listening is where I would start.

00:29:01.020 And then brainstorming, you know, I'm a great fan of post-it notes and just writing down

00:29:07.020 on post-it notes, everything you can think of about the idea.

00:29:11.520 And then you can cluster them together.

00:29:14.640 They'll form into clumps.

00:29:16.440 And those clumps are your main bits of content.

00:29:19.140 And then you can start to organize the clumps and think about, well, you know, should I start

00:29:23.240 here?

00:29:23.460 I'm a great fan of kind of a funnel structure for a talk where you go from the general to

00:29:29.080 the specific, but you can do it lots of different ways.

00:29:31.820 And there are ways of doing it, which surprise and delight people.

00:29:36.160 Storytelling, very important.

00:29:38.980 Shocking people with a question or a statement at the beginning.

00:29:42.640 That's also a very good way to start. 1.00

00:29:46.640 You know, if you walk onto a stage and say, you're all idiots, that's going to make people 1.00

00:29:51.300 pay attention, isn't it? 1.00

00:29:52.180 You'd have to have a pretty good reason for saying it and justifying it and being amusing

00:29:55.860 with it.

00:29:56.600 But, you know, when you rattle people's cages a little bit with something like that, you

00:30:00.840 know, we're all going to die in five minutes.

00:30:02.500 I mean, you will get attention.

00:30:05.480 So you have to be able to back it up.

00:30:08.040 And I'm quite a fan of the old essayists structure, which is say, say, say, say what

00:30:15.960 you're going to say, say it, and then say what you said.

00:30:20.560 And actually with my, the TED talk about speaking, which is the one that did so well, I did a

00:30:26.720 video, which is on my website with Neil Gordon, who's a top US speaker coach, where we kind

00:30:32.380 of pulled the thing apart.

00:30:33.840 So it's about half an hour, I think, of us doing that, where I kept stopping it.

00:30:37.700 And we say, okay, what I did there is this, and what we could have done is that, and the

00:30:41.540 reason that worked is this.

00:30:43.520 And so with that TED talk, I started off by saying the human voice, the instrument we all

00:30:49.640 play.

00:30:49.960 And I think I ended up saying pretty much the same thing at the end.

00:30:53.360 And I did the same thing, I'm sure, with the one on listening.

00:30:57.220 So it's a very good idea to start with a kind of strong statement at the beginning.

00:31:03.740 There's also cadences you can use.

00:31:05.680 I mean, that cadence I used at the beginning there, the human voice, da-da-da-da, I have

00:31:10.460 a dream.

00:31:11.600 You know, those four syllables can be a very strong way of starting a talk with a strong

00:31:17.860 statement or with a question.

00:31:21.620 And it's a cadence people are pretty familiar with.

00:31:24.940 So all these things can be folded in.

00:31:28.100 And then, of course, you want to think about how does this flow over time?

00:31:31.100 How long is it going to be?

00:31:33.060 Short is good.

00:31:34.800 TED, they only give you 18 minutes.

00:31:36.520 And there's a reason for that, for the classic TED talk being 18 minutes.

00:31:41.260 The reason is that it's too long to busk it.

00:31:45.040 You can't just walk up and make it up on the spot.

00:31:48.200 But it's too short to give your usual hour-long lecture or whatever it is for most of the people

00:31:54.000 who do TED.

00:31:54.580 So you have to think about it.

00:31:57.000 And it has to be specifically made for the stage.

00:32:00.400 I think my first TED talk actually was six minutes, that first TED University talk on sound.

00:32:05.640 And I seem to remember I did deliver it quite quickly.

00:32:09.880 But it's very important not to gabble.

00:32:12.740 And I'm sure we can come on to some of the aspects of the vocal toolbox in a moment.

00:32:17.260 So content is king.

00:32:21.740 Having said that, it's a shame to have riveting, brilliant content and deliver it in a very tedious way that sends people to sleep.

00:32:32.920 Well, let's talk about it.

00:32:33.660 So the content, I think the big idea there is have a big idea.

00:32:37.320 That's important.

00:32:38.600 Try not to have too many ideas.

00:32:40.480 I think we've all been in talks where the speaker's trying to convey lots of complex ideas.

00:32:45.880 No one's going to remember that.

00:32:47.220 So have one big idea.

00:32:48.880 Repeat it over and over again.

00:32:50.680 Use storytelling to buttress it if you need to.

00:32:54.100 But have that big idea.

00:32:55.280 Let's talk about delivery.

00:32:57.040 How do we deliver that content?

00:32:58.760 Talk about the voice.

00:32:59.540 First off, what are some things people can do to be more effective with their vocal toolbox?

00:33:06.820 Yes, I talk about the vocal toolbox.

00:33:08.720 It's a kind of metaphor for all of the aspects of the voice that we don't really think about very much.

00:33:14.320 Because this voice that we all have is an amazing instrument.

00:33:17.320 You know, it's the instrument everybody plays.

00:33:19.920 And yet we're not taught how to use it.

00:33:21.560 This is the thing that drives me nuts.

00:33:23.080 You know, we teach reading and writing at school.

00:33:25.360 But we do not teach speaking hardly at all.

00:33:27.880 More in your country than ours.

00:33:29.120 But it is very focused on public speaking, I think.

00:33:31.300 And even less do we teach listening, hardly at all, anywhere.

00:33:38.340 And yet speaking and listening are the most primal and effective modes of human communication.

00:33:45.140 I know you can't publish these things quite in the same way you can publish the written word.

00:33:50.880 And certainly books have changed the world in dramatic ways.

00:33:55.200 But now we've got audio and video to the degree we have, it's even more important.

00:34:01.220 Because, you know, there are YouTubers out there who are influencing millions and millions of people.

00:34:07.460 And the way they speak is a big part of that, I should imagine.

00:34:11.300 So let's talk about the vocal toolbox a bit.

00:34:14.980 First and foremost, I'd say the simplest and most important thing to do is breathing.

00:34:20.120 Your voice is just breath.

00:34:21.480 That's all it is.

00:34:22.740 It's breath coming through your vocal cords and resonating them.

00:34:26.680 And you're controlling that.

00:34:28.500 And then you resonate that voice in various chambers of your head and your chest and so forth.

00:34:35.180 So it's just breath.

00:34:37.240 I wonder how many people listening to this have a breathing practice.

00:34:41.240 Maybe some of you do prana yoga.

00:34:43.980 Maybe some of you exercise and enjoy that sort of rhythmic breathing that comes with aerobic exercise.

00:34:52.140 But not many people, in my experience, treat it as a breathing practice.

00:34:59.380 And we tend to breathe in a very shallow way most of the time.

00:35:04.000 So taking a huge, deep breath is a wonderful thing to do for yourself.

00:35:09.600 It's also a great antidote to nerves.

00:35:13.020 If your voice goes a bit like this when you're going on stage, a big, deep breath will really settle that down.

00:35:22.360 It's the fuel for your voice as well.

00:35:24.720 So without a deep breath, you can't speak so well.

00:35:28.020 And, of course, it counteracts something which I'll mention when we talk about different registers, which is vocal fry, which, again, I have to say, I think originated in the USA.

00:35:41.740 Yeah.

00:35:42.000 Which, you know, talking like this is a very croaky way to talk.

00:35:46.440 Yeah, really, really good.

00:35:48.400 And it's not particularly attractive to listen to.

00:35:51.500 The research shows that it's not considered attractive or intelligent by people.

00:35:56.120 People who speak in vocal fry are considered less hireable, less intelligent, less capable, less strong.

00:36:05.000 You know, there's a lot of lesses in the way that it lands.

00:36:08.700 So, you know, if you get into that habit, and it is just a habit, we've all got a voice.

00:36:13.760 I think one of the saddest things about vocal fry is that it's really ignoring the huge capability of this wonderful voice we have.

00:36:23.300 So it's all about breath, really.

00:36:25.360 You know, if I don't breathe very much, I can get in vocal fry like this.

00:36:29.360 It doesn't take much breath, and I don't breathe much at all.

00:36:32.360 Whereas if I take a deep breath, then suddenly I've got the ammunition to speak and use the whole capability of my voice.

00:36:40.820 So breathing is very important.

00:36:42.640 You know, a nice breathing practice, breathe in through your nose, and then breathe out through your mouth,

00:36:48.820 pursing your lips as if you're going to whistle.

00:36:50.600 And practice lengthening, count as you do those things, and practice lengthening the count day after day.

00:36:59.540 You don't have to do it for hours, just a minute or two.

00:37:02.380 And at least you're starting to explore the limits and push the limits of your lungs and get them really working for you.

00:37:09.240 So breathing.

00:37:11.280 And then the other thing I'd mention, which I think is really important, is posture.

00:37:17.000 And many people don't pay much attention to this.

00:37:20.420 We all sit far too much.

00:37:23.320 You know, I think there's lots of stuff out there, isn't it, about sitting being the new smoking or whatever.

00:37:28.100 Sitting's not tremendously good for us.

00:37:30.000 We weren't designed to sit on chairs.

00:37:33.680 And a lot of us sit on chairs for six, eight, ten hours a day, even longer than that.

00:37:39.240 Sometimes get home and sit down again.

00:37:41.920 So posture tends to fall by the wayside, especially if you're leaning forward and looking at a screen that's below you.

00:37:49.960 Your head is tipped forward.

00:37:51.280 Your spine is tipped forward.

00:37:52.560 And we get into a kind of stoop, which becomes very common.

00:37:58.260 And the important thing to realize about the voice is that your vocal cords need to be vertical to work properly.

00:38:05.220 So, you know, if I lean my head right forward, you can hear the effect it's got on my voice as I stretch my vocal cords.

00:38:12.800 Equally, if I put my head back in my shoulders, I'm compressing my vocal cords, and that's not great either.

00:38:18.460 So, in order to speak effectively, you need to have a relatively vertical posture, certainly for the top half of your body, even if you're sitting.

00:38:28.820 The easy way to do that is to use a visualization that I use whenever I go on stage or when I'm doing webinars or whatever it may be, sitting in front of a camera,

00:38:40.360 which is to imagine that there's a string attached to the top of your head and everything is hanging from that string.

00:38:48.880 So that automatically puts your shoulders back and down.

00:38:54.580 If you're standing up, it makes everything vertical and it gives you pretty immediately a much nicer posture where your vocal cords are vertical.

00:39:04.060 And if you're standing on a stage, it looks strong as opposed to leaning on one side or having a leg cocked or, you know, looking a little bit sort of off center or with one shoulder higher or whatever it may be that we get into the habit of doing.

00:39:18.800 You know, that can happen to us.

00:39:19.960 You have a bag over one shoulder for years and that shoulder goes up eventually.

00:39:24.500 So string in the top of the head, let the shoulders go down and it'll really help the voice.

00:39:30.020 And then let's just talk about register for a moment.

00:39:34.080 I mean, there are actually four registers of the human voice, but the one we've already talked about, vocal fry, I strongly advise not to use.

00:39:41.980 There's another, the whistle register is way up high.

00:39:44.780 I mean, I can't even do it.

00:39:46.400 You have to be a professional singer with incredible range to get up there.

00:39:50.280 So let's leave that aside.

00:39:51.920 So modal is where we tend to hang out.

00:39:55.380 And that's the register that I'm speaking in now.

00:39:58.040 And in modal, you can move your resonance by practicing.

00:40:05.440 So of course, your vocal cords are where you make the voice, but the voice can resonate in different chambers.

00:40:13.260 And the biggest resonating chamber you've got in your body is the chest.

00:40:17.940 So that's the one to practice because we tend to vote for politicians with deeper voices.

00:40:25.840 And that's because deep means big, generally.

00:40:29.440 Big things have deeper voices than little things.

00:40:32.060 We take big things more seriously.

00:40:34.200 So there's a kind of long, long genetic appreciation that deep means authoritative.

00:40:41.400 And that's an association that we all have, pretty much.

00:40:45.640 So in order to do this, you know, if you speak in your nose, like I am now, that's, you know, fairly light.

00:40:51.700 And I can speak in my throat.

00:40:52.960 And that's where I tend to speak a lot of the time from.

00:40:56.680 But if I move it down and speak from my chest, you can hear the difference.

00:41:00.580 I'm now resonating in my chest.

00:41:02.980 And the way to check that is to put your hand on your sternum, on the chest bone, and feel the vibration.

00:41:11.580 And practice working on that so you feel that more and more in what you're speaking.

00:41:17.680 So it's not an exercise where you're trying to, you know, you don't want to go down here and speak in a really strange way.

00:41:24.740 I'm not talking about being unnatural with this.

00:41:28.220 And if you practice with that hand on sternum exercise, you can start to resonate, use that big chamber that you've got, and make your voice more and more authoritative for when you need that.

00:41:43.100 You know, I mean, you don't necessarily need that all the time.

00:41:46.300 Good morning, darling.

00:41:47.200 Would you like a coffee?

00:41:48.520 You know, perhaps not necessary.

00:41:51.360 But when you do need it, it's there.

00:41:54.440 And you can exercise that deeper voice.

00:41:57.200 So there's some of the aspects of the vocal toolbox.

00:42:00.300 There's plenty more in there.

00:42:02.080 What about body language?

00:42:03.180 I know that when people do public speaking, a lot of times they get really self-conscious about how they're using their hands or who are they looking at.

00:42:11.400 Any tips there?

00:42:13.580 Well, I expect I will walk on stage again at some point in the future.

00:42:16.400 And when I do, body language is very important.

00:42:19.340 I talked about posture, and that's a big part of it.

00:42:21.980 You know, standing in a way that's not distracting, eliminating physical tics.

00:42:29.560 That's really important.

00:42:30.720 I mean, I've seen many people walk around and around in a tiny circle as they're speaking.

00:42:36.020 And you just think, why are you doing that?

00:42:37.660 Things like that can be very distracting, or people who will walk three paces to the right and speak a bit and then walk three paces to the left and speak a bit.

00:42:47.500 And they keep doing that.

00:42:49.580 And after a while, you know, the audience is going, is he going to, oh, there he goes again.

00:42:53.320 Oh, he's off again.

00:42:54.400 And, you know, these things can become distracting if they have no meaning.

00:43:01.140 So I think the key thing when you're on a stage in front of people is to be conscious about everything you're doing.

00:43:09.420 That's one of the reasons why I love speaking in public, actually, because it's one of the times when I'm most present, most conscious.

00:43:16.220 I'm really making an effort to think it's not so much planning everything as being conscious of what you're doing.

00:43:26.140 There are things to learn, and there are certain gestures which are to be avoided, and others which can be very powerful.

00:43:35.080 One example of that, a gesture which I would suggest people probably wouldn't want to use, is one called the placator.

00:43:42.860 This is one of the archetypal gestures that goes along with Virginia Satter's sort of archetypal relationships.

00:43:49.800 And the placator is an open hand, both hands, palms up in front of you, and open and waving.

00:43:57.920 And that's a kind of begging gesture.

00:43:59.520 That's saying, I have no weapons.

00:44:00.980 I'm not going to hurt you.

00:44:02.000 It's a kind of please gesture.

00:44:04.620 Now, I've seen people give entire talks with their hands doing that.

00:44:08.860 And that's not what they meant to convey, but that's what they are conveying with that body language.

00:44:16.560 So if you happen to like having your hands out in front of you and waving them to emphasize points,

00:44:23.580 then my suggestion would be, rather than palms up, turn them sideways so the thumbs are up.

00:44:30.780 You can still do exactly the same gestures, and you'll see a lot of politicians.

00:44:35.880 Now, I've mentioned that if you watch them speaking, a lot of politicians will do that.

00:44:40.200 They'll be gesticulating with both hands, emphasizing points, thumbs up, fingers vertical, no begging there.

00:44:47.100 It simply is an emphasis gesture.

00:44:50.040 So that's a good example of why it's important to be conscious about the way that gestures tend to land with people.

00:44:59.980 You know, pointing at people is quite threatening, and that's one you want to be really careful about.

00:45:06.920 That's kind of the blamer when you point at an audience. 0.96

00:45:10.400 So be careful using that kind of thing.

00:45:14.640 And I think with all body language, the key is to make it congruent with what you're saying.

00:45:22.000 I mean, if you are asking people for a generous donation to something, then hands out, palms up, absolutely appropriate.

00:45:30.840 So I'm not saying never use that.

00:45:32.020 It's just when is it appropriate to use that kind of thing?

00:45:35.420 I mean, I've done trainings in public speaking over the years, lots of them, and, you know, some of the multi-day efforts where for two or three days, you were not allowed to use your hands at all.

00:45:48.480 You had to stand with your hands by your sides and speak to people.

00:45:52.040 And that's quite challenging, but it does teach you to become conscious with what you're doing when you use your hands, as opposed to waving them about.

00:46:01.700 Now, I mean, some people are very hand-wavy, and that's authentic for them.

00:46:07.580 As long as it's congruent, it's authentic, and it's putting across the message, and it's not putting people off, I think that's absolutely fine.

00:46:17.980 So you want to be yourself, but a good tip with all of this stuff, really, is video yourself.

00:46:24.880 You know, you can just do that with a phone these days.

00:46:26.920 It's so easy.

00:46:27.740 Set a phone up, video yourself speaking, and watch it back.

00:46:32.740 And I guarantee you'll be going, oh, my goodness, I never knew I did that.

00:46:38.020 So asking yourself the question, is that useful?

00:46:42.460 Is that amplifying my message or getting in the way of it?

00:46:46.920 That's the key to that kind of body language.

00:46:52.580 Well, Julian, we've covered a lot of ground today.

00:46:55.000 Is there someplace people can go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:46:58.620 Sure, yes.

00:46:59.440 Well, juliantreasure.com is my website.

00:47:01.900 And as I say, there's a free download on there of this analysis Neil and I did of my top seven all-time TED Talk.

00:47:09.240 So it's pulling that apart and asking, why was that so popular?

00:47:13.320 And I think there's a lot of really valuable lessons in there.

00:47:15.800 So if people pop by, that one you can download.

00:47:19.360 I mean, the book's available from all the usual places and in both print and audiobook, which I narrated.

00:47:26.080 And I was very proud that that won both of the two big global audiobook prizes for Best Business Audiobook

00:47:32.880 because we recorded that in a tiny little studio up here in Orkney, where I live off the north coast of Scotland.

00:47:38.080 So it was kind of a cottage industry.

00:47:40.760 And it was a source of great pride to us that we managed to win the awards there.

00:47:46.700 So, yeah, there's the book.

00:47:47.760 There's a course as well, which you can access through the website, which is a full seven and a half hours of everything I know about speaking and listening.

00:47:55.420 And, of course, if you sign up to the list, then we – I do a little weekly audio blog, like five minutes a week, just exploring a little topic.

00:48:04.540 And that goes out free to everybody on my list.

00:48:07.460 So be delighted to see anybody.

00:48:09.980 And JT at juliantreasure.com, if you want to contact me, be delighted to hear from you.

00:48:15.420 Fantastic.

00:48:15.880 Well, Julian Treasure, thanks for your time.

00:48:16.920 It's been a pleasure.

00:48:17.780 Thank you so much.

00:48:18.720 It's been a great pleasure being with you.

00:48:21.200 My guest today was Julian Treasure.

00:48:22.740 He's the author of the book, How to Be Heard.

00:48:24.480 It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:48:26.780 You can find out more information about his work at his website, juliantreasure.com.

00:48:30.040 Also, check out our show notes at awim.is slash howtobeheard, where you can find links to resources.

00:48:34.420 We can delve deeper into this topic.

00:48:35.620 We'll see you next time.

00:49:05.620 Also, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher.

00:49:08.920 It helps out a lot.

00:49:09.680 If you've done that already, thank you.

00:49:11.080 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you'd think would get something out of it.

00:49:14.660 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:49:16.420 Until next time, this is Brett McKay.

00:49:17.720 Remind you to not only listen to the A1 Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - August 16, 2021

Tips From a Top TED Talker on How to Be Heard

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