The Art of Manliness - We Need a P.E. Revolution

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.060 When it comes to physical education in our country schools, parents, teachers, and administrators

00:00:15.200 alike typically place it at the bottom of their list of priorities, something to fit

00:00:18.940 in if budget, time, and academic standards allow.

00:00:21.320 My guest, however, says that PE should be thought of as the most important component

00:00:24.560 in education, and is critical not only in ensuring the lifetime health of our kids,

00:00:28.100 but even attaining those vaunted academic standards too.

00:00:31.020 His name is Dr. Daniel O'Neill, and he's an orthopedic surgeon, a sports psychologist,

00:00:34.780 and the author of Survival of the Fit.

00:00:36.820 Today on the show, Dr. Dan lays out how a lack of physical activity is creating problems

00:00:40.460 in kids from obesity to anxiety, and preventing the development of what he calls a physical

00:00:44.680 identity.

00:00:45.540 He explains the way the huge number of our kids who don't see themselves as athletes end

00:00:49.120 up not pursuing physical activity at all, and why he thinks school-sponsored sports are

00:00:52.760 only contributing to this problem.

00:00:54.380 Dr. Dan takes us back to a time in our history when physical education was prioritized, and

00:00:58.080 we discuss what's wrong with modern PE and how it can be improved.

00:01:01.260 Dan makes an argument for why PE should be the main foundational thing focused on in schools

00:01:04.660 today, and what people can do to push to make that happen.

00:01:07.600 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash PE.

00:01:20.620 All right, Dr. Daniel O'Neill, welcome to the show.

00:01:24.280 Thank you so much, Brad.

00:01:25.500 My pleasure.

00:01:26.180 So you are an orthopedic surgeon, but you've become a big advocate for rebranding and revamping

00:01:33.780 the way American kids experience physical education in schools.

00:01:38.540 How did you get involved with reforming PE?

00:01:42.460 Yeah, that's a good question because my day job was an orthopedic surgeon, and after about

00:01:47.980 10 or so years, I thought I was missing a big component.

00:01:52.820 I was working with some pretty high-level athletes in those days, and I went back to school and

00:01:58.680 got a degree in exercise and sports psychology, and that was at the School of Education at Boston

00:02:04.360 University, my program.

00:02:06.280 So I wound up taking a lot of education courses over those years, but the real thing was, and

00:02:13.880 this is not news to anybody, is that in my 40 years of medicine, I have seen kids get fatter

00:02:21.620 and sadder and more out of shape and more unable to play and more unable to move.

00:02:30.240 And it's just been visual.

00:02:32.900 You know, it's not even, you know, you have to do a study and break down the data.

00:02:37.100 You can just see it anywhere, anytime.

00:02:40.000 And I thought we needed to do something about it.

00:02:42.980 Well, yeah, I mean, I think everyone's seen that, and I guess, you know, everyone's heard

00:02:46.700 about there's been an increase in the number of children these days with what we call the

00:02:51.200 diseases of civilization.

00:02:52.460 Things like diabetes, like stuff that you wouldn't get, you're not supposed to get until

00:02:56.940 maybe your 40s or 50s.

00:02:58.680 You're seeing kids as young as 10 get it.

00:03:02.180 Yeah, it's unbelievable.

00:03:04.080 And what I talk about, the analogy I make is that when I was a kid, we were stealing our

00:03:09.400 parents' cigarettes, and they were afraid if we got addicted to those cigarettes, we would

00:03:13.920 become emphysemic and have lung cancer and such when we're in our 60s and 70s.

00:03:19.720 Because these children, our children today, are sick now.

00:03:23.400 They're not waiting until they're adults to get diseases.

00:03:26.400 Like you say, they have diabetes and high blood pressure and anxiety and depression, all these

00:03:31.840 Western diseases, diseases of civilization, but really adult diseases, you know, and they

00:03:38.040 shouldn't be having them as children.

00:03:40.420 Well, nutrition plays a role in that.

00:03:41.800 You write a bit about that, but your focus is on the physical activity component.

00:03:45.860 Do we know what the state of childhood physical activity in America is today?

00:03:50.020 Yeah, it's zero.

00:03:54.120 It's the limit of X approach is zero.

00:03:57.220 You're absolutely right.

00:03:58.360 In the book, I didn't want to go down the diet road too much just because there's so much

00:04:03.920 been written on that and there's so much, not controversy, but just so much that we know

00:04:10.020 and that we know is not happening.

00:04:11.860 And there are a lot of really smart people that are working on that.

00:04:15.660 But what I feel like hasn't been addressed is that physical activity component and the

00:04:23.960 kids today are just not doing anything.

00:04:27.080 They're not moving.

00:04:29.000 They're not playing.

00:04:29.960 The ones that do organize sports quit by the age of 15 and they're getting those diseases

00:04:37.280 that you mentioned.

00:04:39.220 So unless we do something when they're young, when they still have what I call a physical

00:04:44.300 identity, we're going to have another generation that has a shorter lifespan than the last generation.

00:04:50.200 Yeah, I want to talk more about this physical identity idea in a bit because I thought it

00:04:53.600 was really powerful.

00:04:55.060 But I mean, do we have any comparisons to say like how much physical activity kids got say

00:04:59.360 a generation or two ago compared to today?

00:05:01.340 Yeah, you know, it's interesting.

00:05:04.240 It hasn't really been quantified, but kids just went out and played, you know, and playgrounds

00:05:12.040 and ball yards and these things just had kids all over them.

00:05:16.440 But we don't know the real breakdown of activity versus the ultra processed foods that we're dealing

00:05:24.380 with versus the genetic components, because it's to the point now where, you know, there is

00:05:29.740 a genetic component to some of their obesity because the parents are giving these kids a

00:05:35.600 bad start in life in utero because of the foods that they're consuming, the mothers are consuming. 1.00

00:05:41.840 So it really is complicated.

00:05:43.920 But I don't know of a study that has literally looked at activity when I was a kid 50 years

00:05:50.740 ago versus today.

00:05:52.280 But we have numbers.

00:05:53.780 You talk about them in the book.

00:05:55.120 We have some rough idea on the amount of time kids are spending on screens, and that's

00:05:59.260 just been increasing.

00:06:00.300 I think I've seen numbers.

00:06:01.380 It's like up to like seven hours a day on screens, which is crazy because, you know,

00:06:07.660 if you have like six hours at school and you sleep for eight hours, like the rest of the

00:06:11.400 time you're just on a screen.

00:06:13.400 Yeah, it's absolutely amazing.

00:06:15.520 And like you say, whatever number you mentioned, it's probably bigger now.

00:06:20.880 It's getting bigger by the day, just like the obesity, just like obesity is getting bigger

00:06:26.420 by the day.

00:06:28.260 And I use the word very specifically addicted.

00:06:31.440 These children are addicted to the two-dimensional entertainment.

00:06:35.900 They're addicted to their screens.

00:06:38.340 They're addicted to Call of Duty.

00:06:39.920 They're addicted to their iPhones.

00:06:41.480 They're addicted to Snapchat.

00:06:43.000 They are addicted, just like they're addicted to the ultra-processed foods and just like people

00:06:48.340 are addicted to cigarettes.

00:06:49.960 It's a very similar physiologic response for sure.

00:06:55.400 So we've mentioned the lack of movement has resulted in an increase in obesity, metabolic

00:06:59.900 conditions like diabetes.

00:07:01.720 But then I also like how you emphasize the lack of physical activity can also help explain

00:07:06.960 partly why we've seen an increase in childhood anxiety and depression in the past two decades.

00:07:14.560 Oh, absolutely.

00:07:15.520 And we have all the data on this.

00:07:17.460 That's the thing.

00:07:18.880 There's no secrets here.

00:07:21.040 I was talking about setting up a study and I was talking to a public health guy from Columbia

00:07:27.300 and I'm on the phone with him and I almost felt him reach through the phone and grab my

00:07:33.160 neck and scream, we don't need any more studies.

00:07:36.060 You know, we have the studies.

00:07:37.720 This is not a tobacco issue where the tobacco companies were able to obfuscate a lot of the

00:07:44.600 data and such.

00:07:45.480 There's no question with what is going on now.

00:07:49.120 We see it time after time, study after study.

00:07:52.240 You cannot open the paper, essentially.

00:07:55.500 If you open the USA today, it says if you had done this one study group of like 6,000 or

00:08:03.660 something people, I forget.

00:08:04.980 If they had done 10 minutes of exercise more, it would have increased their lifespan by this

00:08:11.260 much.

00:08:11.500 I mean, it's just remarkable how little exercise we need to make these health changes.

00:08:19.600 But in the case of kids, they need a lot of exercise because they're kids.

00:08:23.640 And what's crazy is that movement can do all sorts of things to help with obesity, insulin

00:08:28.600 resistance, anxiety, depression.

00:08:30.580 It's free.

00:08:31.360 You just have to go outside and do it.

00:08:33.000 But our typical solution is a medical one.

00:08:35.220 It's like, well, you know, give the kid a drug for his anxiety, you know, give, put him

00:08:39.540 on a high blood pressure medication or some sort of medication for his diabetes.

00:08:43.300 And it's like, wait a minute, we got this thing that's free.

00:08:47.080 Like, why aren't we using that?

00:08:48.500 Oh, Brett, if I knew I was down a week ago, I was down at our legislature testifying in

00:08:57.320 front of the education committee, talking about just this.

00:09:01.100 They are, they have a bill before them.

00:09:03.160 They're taking a hospital down in the Southeast part of the state, and they're making it a

00:09:08.780 full pediatric psychiatric hospital.

00:09:12.040 And that's the tune of millions and millions and millions and millions of dollars, rather

00:09:16.960 than sitting there and saying, hold it, why do we have all these kids with anxiety and

00:09:21.080 depression and all these other problems?

00:09:23.800 Why don't we do something about that?

00:09:25.260 And as you point out, oh yeah, we have this thing called mother nature, and she could help

00:09:29.840 us with this.

00:09:31.120 And if we just gave these children physical education every day for every child, it is going

00:09:37.060 to solve so many issues.

00:09:38.820 And just to pick up on your point, we have our big brains to run these fancy bodies that we

00:09:46.120 have.

00:09:46.420 In other words, it's not the mind-body connection, it's the body-mind connection.

00:09:53.180 The body is what drives this.

00:09:55.340 If your body is not working, your brain is not going to be working.

00:09:59.240 So one of your most, I think, really powerful and strong arguments you make in the book is

00:10:04.080 that by kids moving less in childhood, it's causing them to not develop what you call a

00:10:10.120 physical identity.

00:10:11.160 What do you mean by physical identity and what happens when a kid doesn't develop a physical

00:10:16.560 identity in childhood?

00:10:18.220 Right.

00:10:18.880 So for anybody that has had a kid or a puppy dog or an octopus or has seen or a bear cub

00:10:27.740 who has seen any youth, any young animal moving, they understand that they have a physical identity.

00:10:35.100 You come out of the womb, you come out of the egg with a physical identity, you are born

00:10:39.920 to move, you are born to explore, you were born to go out in the snow and roll around and

00:10:46.320 make snow angels.

00:10:47.500 That's what children do.

00:10:49.980 What we have to do is allow them to keep doing that.

00:10:53.200 In other words, if we let children continue to play and help them play with facilities

00:11:02.540 and bike paths and this sort of thing, they are going to keep doing that because that's

00:11:07.680 what they know how to do.

00:11:08.840 That's their physical identity.

00:11:11.080 So everyone, every child has a physical identity.

00:11:14.040 There's no two-year-old who walks slowly through the airport.

00:11:18.500 Every two-year-old is jumping and skipping and running.

00:11:21.660 That's what they do.

00:11:23.380 If we allow them to keep that, things are going to be just fine.

00:11:27.600 And if we allow them to have physical education every day, they're going to keep playing.

00:11:34.160 And with a little bit of instruction, they can learn some body movement skills.

00:11:38.080 They can learn how to squat.

00:11:39.100 They can learn how to swing a racket, this kind of stuff.

00:11:42.400 But the most important thing is to let them play.

00:11:46.100 And believe it or not, the kids are making that distinction around the age of seven.

00:11:51.660 So in other words, if we don't let them keep their physical identity after the age of seven,

00:11:57.680 that's when the kids start heading to the couch and bad things happen there.

00:12:01.200 What you point out in the book is that some kids will take up a sport and they'll keep with that.

00:12:06.160 But then there's some kids who don't take up a sport for whatever reason.

00:12:10.340 Maybe it's just not their thing.

00:12:13.160 The problem is they think in their head, well, I guess physical activity in general isn't for me.

00:12:18.520 So they kind of give up on the idea of being physically active altogether and they'll even

00:12:23.960 carry that with them into adulthood.

00:12:26.160 So what you're talking about is that athletic identity and about 25% or 20% of our kids will

00:12:32.920 have that and they're fine.

00:12:34.800 We don't care about them.

00:12:35.980 They're going to do great.

00:12:37.060 They're going to be healthy.

00:12:38.240 They're going to be active and they're going to play sports.

00:12:40.940 They're going to go skiing and do all the other things.

00:12:42.960 But it's that other 75% or 80% when they get to that fork in the road that then they can

00:12:50.200 identify, and I don't like this phrase, but they identify as non-athletes.

00:12:55.400 And you see that traditionally on the ball field or on the hockey rink or wherever where

00:13:02.640 this kid is not so good at that.

00:13:05.460 They don't have much of a proclivity for that.

00:13:08.600 And so then the kid starts getting that message and the difference is in 2022 is that they

00:13:16.480 can go to the couch and then they can do something that is really cool.

00:13:20.540 And that's these crazy video games and such.

00:13:23.400 Whereas back in the day when a kid wasn't good at throwing a football or good at ballet,

00:13:31.600 then she would still ride her bike and she would still play with the other kids.

00:13:36.720 But now the kids have that option and that option is cool and, as we've said, incredibly

00:13:44.040 addictive.

00:13:44.960 Because that's an important distinction.

00:13:46.440 So you identify yourself as an athlete and that's if you play some sort of sport, whether

00:13:50.460 it's football, soccer, basketball, wrestling, whatever, or a non-athlete.

00:13:55.240 And what typically happens, you're making the case is that when kids have that, the only

00:13:59.060 identity they can have about being physical is athlete, non-athlete.

00:14:02.800 If they identify as non-athlete because they just didn't take to a sport, then they have

00:14:07.520 a tendency just to not move their body at all in any way.

00:14:10.880 So they don't have a physical identity.

00:14:13.300 Right.

00:14:13.520 In 2022, they lose their physical identity.

00:14:16.600 They lose that inborn physical identity.

00:14:18.940 And when we ignore this big cohort of children at that age and we let them head for the couch,

00:14:28.460 what a horrible thing that is to do and to allow to happen.

00:14:33.520 And that's why with physical education, if we keep these kids moving, they at least have

00:14:38.540 that fitness to start doing these sports at any age or to start doing the fun things, whether

00:14:44.680 it's ballroom dancing or tennis or whatever it might be as they get older.

00:14:49.700 But what's happening is children are graduating from high school with zero fitness.

00:14:56.040 And so they're never going to pick up that tennis racket or they're never going to start

00:15:00.240 doing skiing or whatever that they might do as an adult because they just don't have any

00:15:05.780 fitness.

00:15:07.000 Well, this is a nice segue to some of your critiques on how America does physical education or helping

00:15:13.760 kids develop a physical identity.

00:15:16.260 And you make this really compelling, intriguing argument that the development of school sports

00:15:21.740 in America has unintentionally caused more kids to not develop a physical identity.

00:15:29.900 Can you walk us through that argument?

00:15:30.760 Because I think it's really interesting.

00:15:33.220 Yeah.

00:15:33.580 And this is something that I get a lot of blowback for, but it's something we have to consider.

00:15:41.700 Right now, a small percentage generally in the survey that I did for the book, 16%, and that

00:15:50.620 was a survey across the United States, 16% of kids are playing three sports a year.

00:15:56.300 And that's what we need for them to have fitness, okay, as opposed to one sport.

00:16:01.300 So in other words, there's a small percentage of kids that are playing three sports a year.

00:16:05.340 And again, those are children we don't have to worry about.

00:16:08.420 But this other big cohort is not playing any sports.

00:16:13.580 However, the bulk of our money, of our physical education money, if you will, is going to competitive

00:16:20.940 sports.

00:16:22.240 So the bulk of our money, and I think it was 86% in the book, 86% of the money is going to 16%

00:16:29.900 of the children.

00:16:31.960 And that is a big problem because we are spending not millions, but billions of dollars in healthcare

00:16:40.740 costs.

00:16:41.820 Again, getting back to what you said way at the beginning, when we have options, when we have

00:16:46.700 other things we can do, and with a small reallocation of that money, we could get so many kids fit

00:16:55.160 and not have to pay all those healthcare costs.

00:16:58.420 And then if the communities could build in competitive sports and such, that would be

00:17:03.580 a great solution.

00:17:05.340 But right now, we've got to stop conflating education and school education with sports

00:17:11.660 because it's a system that's just not working.

00:17:14.280 Right.

00:17:14.440 And so the argument you make is whenever sports in a school is presented as the primary way,

00:17:19.140 you're going to get physical activity at school.

00:17:21.060 Again, you have that problem of the athlete, non-athlete dichotomy.

00:17:25.260 If a kid identifies as an athlete, they're going to play lots of sports, they're going

00:17:28.780 to be fine.

00:17:29.620 But as you said, it's a small percentage of kids that do that.

00:17:32.120 So most of the kids, they think, well, I'm not good at football, I'm not good at basketball,

00:17:37.020 so I'm not going to really do any physical activity.

00:17:39.840 And then they don't develop that physical identity.

00:17:42.680 Right.

00:17:42.920 And these kids, though, are not playing on their own.

00:17:47.280 That's the difference too.

00:17:48.500 So just because you weren't on the basketball team back in the day, you would still go into

00:17:53.240 the backyard or out into the schoolyard and shoot baskets and play pond hockey or do whatever.

00:18:00.820 But now, the other thing I talk about in the book is that children do not know how to play

00:18:07.900 on their own.

00:18:09.400 And as a result, unless there is an adult there blowing a whistle, they don't do anything.

00:18:15.100 And so they don't do pickup games.

00:18:16.760 And so, again, this is a perfect scenario.

00:18:20.420 It could not have been set up better for the folks in Silicon Valley because now they've

00:18:25.260 got these kids.

00:18:26.280 They've got this 80% of our children.

00:18:28.860 And they put the screws into them.

00:18:31.100 And they get them addicted.

00:18:32.700 And that is the end of the game.

00:18:34.760 And that's what's gone on with this generation of children.

00:18:37.780 And I think an interesting point you make, and I don't think a lot of Americans realize

00:18:40.520 this, is that the idea of sports being connected to school, that's pretty much a uniquely

00:18:45.560 American thing.

00:18:46.500 In other countries, schools don't have sports programs.

00:18:50.220 Right.

00:18:50.360 And that's why it has to be, in my mind, a community concept, which is, as you point out,

00:18:56.220 in most countries.

00:18:57.080 What happened with us is, in the early 1900s, when we have that huge wave of immigration,

00:19:05.520 the idea of organized sports was useful for that immigrant community.

00:19:10.700 It was useful for them to learn to take orders, as in the military.

00:19:15.020 It was useful for them for socialization.

00:19:17.880 It was useful to get them off the streets.

00:19:21.300 So it worked out very well.

00:19:23.540 But unfortunately, we've taken that system that was built for a very specific time in

00:19:28.480 this country.

00:19:29.780 And then now we've morphed it into this insane, multi-zillion dollar sports industrial complex,

00:19:37.120 where the companies are more than happy to have high school teams spending literally millions

00:19:45.060 of dollars a year, especially down south, for these teams.

00:19:49.420 And it's just not benefiting us as a society or, certainly, the vast majority of children

00:19:56.420 in that school.

00:19:58.540 So I think in most schools in America, if you don't, I'm talking about public schools, that's

00:20:03.000 your primary focus with this book.

00:20:05.260 If you don't play a sport, then there's some sort of PE requirement.

00:20:09.180 I remember when I played football in high school, because I played football, I never had to take

00:20:13.220 PE.

00:20:13.760 I never did a PE class because I was doing year-round football because I had the season.

00:20:17.940 And then in the off-season, we exercised.

00:20:20.260 But you make this case that, okay, here's these kids who aren't athletes.

00:20:24.160 They've maybe had to do a PE class.

00:20:26.680 But you make the case that our PE classes aren't that great in America today.

00:20:30.260 What's the state of American physical education?

00:20:33.720 Okay.

00:20:34.040 So there are a couple of things to unpack there.

00:20:35.840 Number one, the amount of physical education kids get is dependent on the school district.

00:20:41.880 So it's anywhere from zero to maybe three days a week at best.

00:20:48.800 Almost no school has five days a week of physical education.

00:20:53.180 When you get to high school, it gets even worse.

00:20:55.680 In one of our local high schools that we were just quoting in the testimony of the state

00:20:59.500 house, it's out of eight semesters of high school, you have to do PE once.

00:21:04.720 So in other words, it's pretty much non-existent.

00:21:07.020 The other thing that we haven't talked about, and when you talk about not going to PE because

00:21:13.220 you're doing football, one of the things that PE does, a morning PE class, is it turns

00:21:18.420 on your brain.

00:21:19.880 So even for those kids that are playing field hockey and volleyball and football in the

00:21:25.220 afternoon, I want those kids in a PE class at 10 o'clock in the morning because I want

00:21:30.840 their brains turned on for algebra and for English and science.

00:21:35.760 So PE has a huge breadth of influence.

00:21:40.640 The other thing is that just because you were doing gymnastics or you're doing football, that

00:21:46.240 does not make you an athlete or I should say a fit athlete.

00:21:51.600 When you specialize in certain sports, you wind up not being that kid that could climb trees

00:21:58.180 and swim and do all the other things that a normal, active, fit person should be doing.

00:22:03.820 So PE should help with that and rounding out those rough edges.

00:22:08.360 No, it's okay.

00:22:08.880 You're making, so that's a good point.

00:22:09.880 So you're saying you're not against organized sports and not even against organized sports

00:22:14.320 in schools.

00:22:14.980 It's just that sports should be seen as a supplement to physical education.

00:22:19.740 Like every kid should, no matter if you're an athlete or non-athlete, you should be doing

00:22:23.520 some type of physical education in your school day.

00:22:26.220 Absolutely, absolutely.

00:22:28.600 That's the key because of the academic influence that that activity has on the brain and because

00:22:35.700 it makes you into just a better, fitter individual.

00:22:39.160 So just because you play football doesn't mean you know how to lift weights.

00:22:43.740 That's something you hopefully would learn in a PE class.

00:22:47.160 And we just got to keep getting away from this concept that the organized sports is the panacea,

00:22:54.440 not just for fitness, but for psychological health and all these other things.

00:22:59.700 We've just put so much on organized sports.

00:23:03.380 And what we should be emphasizing is that every child who graduates from an American high school

00:23:08.600 at the age of 18 should have a level of physical fitness.

00:23:12.560 And after that, everything can just work itself out.

00:23:16.600 Well, yeah.

00:23:16.720 The other problem, if you make sports, the only way you get a physical identity in high

00:23:21.100 school, oftentimes, you know, you play sport in high school.

00:23:23.740 Once you're done with high school, you never play that sport again.

00:23:25.940 Like I haven't put on football pads in over 20 years, but I still exercise because I, that's

00:23:32.100 something I enjoy doing.

00:23:32.880 I have a physical identity where I lift weights and do things like that.

00:23:36.600 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:23:38.660 And now back to the show.

00:23:43.940 So let's talk about this, like the decrease in PE.

00:23:46.880 What's interesting, we've been seeing some states, some districts where they don't even

00:23:51.960 have a PE requirement, but you highlight in the book, you kind of do a history of physical

00:23:55.600 education in America where there's been periods of time where physical education was seen as

00:24:02.180 a priority in a child's overall education.

00:24:05.320 Any moments in history where that it was really a priority?

00:24:09.200 And then like, what's, what caused the decline?

00:24:11.360 Like, why don't we do as much physical education today?

00:24:15.100 Yeah, I love this.

00:24:16.100 One of my favorite things to quote is in 1866, that's 1-866, California, ahead of the curve,

00:24:24.880 California said that every child going to school had to have two exercise periods a day.

00:24:30.360 And you can, you know, that these kids were not taking the school bus to school and you

00:24:37.640 know that they were not going home and watching television.

00:24:40.900 That was California.

00:24:42.280 That was in 1866.

00:24:44.380 But then the real, the one that most of us remember was the President's Council for Physical

00:24:50.660 Fitness.

00:24:51.080 And what happened was President Eisenhower, who, as we all know, was the great general

00:24:57.780 in World War II, looked around as president in the late 50s and he says, boy, we've been

00:25:03.940 out of Korea now just for a few years.

00:25:06.180 We've been out of World War II for a decade.

00:25:08.880 Our, our boys are getting unfit.

00:25:11.680 They're not doing enough.

00:25:13.440 We have factories now.

00:25:15.300 Television was just invented and was becoming a bigger and bigger thing.

00:25:18.700 Fewer farmers, more people were living in the city.

00:25:22.460 And Ike said, we've got to do something about this.

00:25:24.640 So he established the President's Council of Physical Fitness.

00:25:28.020 And then the one that people remember is Jack Kennedy took that and really ran with it.

00:25:32.920 The problem is, is that the federal government does not have a huge influence on physical activity.

00:25:39.860 It's really just a bully pulpit.

00:25:41.760 So, President Kennedy can just say, listen, you know, our kids are unfit and we've got

00:25:48.020 to get them moving.

00:25:49.020 And they started this, the Council on Physical Fitness and they got a lot of high schools.

00:25:53.700 There were like 4,000 high schools that were involved with this.

00:25:56.880 But then that, that just faded away now.

00:25:59.540 And, and, and now it's, it's still out there, but it's, it's not nearly the same influence

00:26:06.020 that it had back then.

00:26:07.340 Now you highlight one high school in the 60s that really took up Kennedy's call to like

00:26:12.820 make physical education a priority.

00:26:14.320 And that's La Sierra High.

00:26:16.320 We, we actually did a podcast a couple of years ago, a guy did a documentary about La

00:26:21.720 Sierra called The Motivation Factor.

00:26:23.860 And this was, this was some really intense PE.

00:26:26.880 Like this, like you watch these videos, these kids and it's, it's impressive.

00:26:31.400 Oh yeah.

00:26:32.040 It's, it's great.

00:26:32.960 And I would have your, your listeners punch that up because it's fantastic.

00:26:37.440 I criticize it a little bit in the book because, you know, all these kids are fit.

00:26:42.780 They're all boys.

00:26:43.640 You don't see any of the girls and obviously that's an issue.

00:26:46.280 But the one great thing about it is if this was really basic stuff and, and, you know, you

00:26:50.960 remember watching the videos, this was not fancy equipment.

00:26:54.180 And somebody said, uh, sent something to me yesterday about a play nasium in, where was

00:27:02.100 it?

00:27:02.440 I don't, it wasn't always in Australia.

00:27:05.620 And it was these fancy pieces of equipment you put on a playground and the parent can exercise

00:27:12.160 while the kid is on the machine.

00:27:13.860 You're using the kid's weight basically as your lifting weight and stuff.

00:27:17.060 But it was this incredibly expensive piece of equipment that's going to break down.

00:27:22.160 That's going to get old with the La Sierra thing.

00:27:24.780 These kids are swinging on bars, you know, doing pushups, you know, nothing fancy at all.

00:27:30.620 And that's really the point here.

00:27:33.240 All of our movement patterns, they're not different.

00:27:36.580 You know, with the same animals that we were 250,000 years ago, we don't need fancy equipment.

00:27:41.780 We don't need to rethink things and it's all there.

00:27:45.900 We have all the research and it's just a question of getting these kids to that gym class.

00:27:51.060 The minute they get over that threshold, man, they are moving.

00:27:54.740 And that's all that we need to do.

00:27:56.680 What's interesting in the, the La Sierra documentary, the filmmaker interviewed students who went

00:28:01.380 through the program.

00:28:02.940 So it was, it was a lot of boys.

00:28:04.180 And I guess last year they started, uh, it became co-ed, the PE program later on in the 70s.

00:28:09.140 So there were some women they were able to interview.

00:28:10.840 And it was interesting, like all of them, uh, talked about like that helped them develop.

00:28:14.560 They didn't say these words, but it said it helped them develop a physical identity.

00:28:18.520 You had, you know, you talked to some, I think one guy like had some sort of surgery

00:28:21.860 where he couldn't walk or like a knee surgery.

00:28:23.820 And like, he went back to his days in La Sierra.

00:28:26.180 It's like, well, you just get a little bit better every day by walking a little bit further.

00:28:30.580 And so that's the power of, of a good physical education program.

00:28:34.100 It can instill that in you and it will last you until you're 60, 70 years old.

00:28:38.720 Absolutely.

00:28:39.540 And, and what we have today is this Naperville, Illinois, if there's anybody from Naperville

00:28:44.320 high school, uh, give me a shout and let me know how your experience was.

00:28:47.820 But I, I talk about that in the book and we have examples of this.

00:28:52.460 And as you say, this is not rocket science.

00:28:55.100 This is because this is in our genes.

00:28:57.680 We want to move.

00:28:59.240 We want to feel resistance.

00:29:00.780 We want to swing and run and do these things.

00:29:03.940 This is all inbred.

00:29:05.600 We're not trying to make our bodies do something that it's not meant to do.

00:29:10.460 We were meant to run and walk 10 miles a day as hunter gatherers.

00:29:15.120 That's what we're programmed to do.

00:29:17.060 And that's what, you know, we, we have that inner need to do.

00:29:20.020 We have this primitive part of our brain and we have to use it on a daily basis for things

00:29:25.340 to go well.

00:29:25.960 So besides spending less time, making kids spend less time in physical education, the

00:29:31.500 other problem with PE is like when they do go, the classes aren't that great.

00:29:35.800 I remember this is 20 years ago, you know, I'd, sometimes you'd walk through a PE class

00:29:40.120 and you see it going on and like half the kids were just sitting on the bleachers and

00:29:44.720 then the other kids were like playing basketball.

00:29:46.620 I mean, that was it.

00:29:48.480 So there's, I mean, so like when you, I get kind of, can you describe like, what is, what

00:29:53.100 is it?

00:29:53.440 Is that indicative of what a typical PE class in America looks like?

00:29:56.880 It's just half the kids participating, half the kids not.

00:29:59.760 Yeah, it's exactly that.

00:30:01.760 And it's the kids with the physical identities that are out there participating and the kids

00:30:06.100 that are not, that are on their cell phones.

00:30:07.700 One of the PE teachers we interviewed for the book, she said she's gotten to the point

00:30:13.560 where she has to look under kids' hats if they're wearing a wool beanie or something

00:30:18.120 because they have earphones in and they're talking to their friends in PE class, you know,

00:30:23.700 their friends probably somewhere else in the school.

00:30:26.140 It's absolutely incredible what the kids without a physical identity will do to get out of activity.

00:30:34.100 And that's why in the book, we delineate, we give you a month of PE classes and we delineate

00:30:40.560 exactly what these kids can be doing for that 30 or 45 minutes that you have them.

00:30:46.340 And that's getting them moving because that's what's going to give us not only the health

00:30:50.600 benefits, but again, the academic benefits.

00:30:52.900 If you don't get that heart rate up every kid, then you're not going to get any of the

00:30:57.940 benefits from it.

00:30:59.520 So yeah, the PE teachers, that old PE teacher has to move out of the way. 0.99

00:31:06.340 If that's the way you're running your class, if half of your kids are just sitting around,

00:31:11.020 you better rethink what's going on because these kids are not getting a physical education.

00:31:16.540 They're getting addicted.

00:31:18.340 Well, and one of the arguments you make in terms of we need to do to revamp physical

00:31:22.760 education is you actually have to have some standards.

00:31:25.120 Like you actually have to hold these kids accountable.

00:31:27.600 And you make this interesting arguments.

00:31:29.460 Like if a kid's not doing well in math, well, the teacher's going to sit down with them and

00:31:33.720 say, hey, you know, what can we do to help you with your math?

00:31:36.520 But when it comes to physical education, if a kid doesn't participate, for some reason,

00:31:40.800 like we feel like we can't force a kid to do PE.

00:31:44.020 It's like, well, you know, they don't see themselves as an athlete.

00:31:46.160 We don't want to embarrass themselves.

00:31:47.180 But you're making this case like, no, we have to hold these kids accountable and actually

00:31:51.260 have some standards that we're trying to help them shoot for when it comes to their

00:31:54.480 physical education.

00:31:56.040 Right.

00:31:56.840 Physical education is the most important class your child is going to in school.

00:32:04.480 What our schools almost have to become now is physical education first, second, and third.

00:32:11.680 That's got to be the main focus because the kids are not fit enough to learn science and

00:32:17.560 math.

00:32:17.980 And guess what?

00:32:19.160 You can learn a lot of science and math on the internet.

00:32:24.200 And nobody else has said this, and I'm sure I'm going to be a hassle for this, but what

00:32:30.500 the kids are not getting at home and they're not getting on the weekends and in the summer,

00:32:35.300 unless they have motivated parents, they're not getting any physical education.

00:32:39.860 So our schools should become, for 180 days a year, the main thing we're teaching, unquote,

00:32:47.360 our kids, is PE.

00:32:50.080 In other words, the main thing we're doing with our kids is getting them moving.

00:32:53.940 That is the absolute best thing we can do for their education and for their health and for

00:32:59.400 their adulthood than anything else.

00:33:01.660 Because guess what?

00:33:02.780 You can learn.

00:33:03.600 You can pick up that extra math time or that extra English time on the computer, on your

00:33:10.120 own time.

00:33:11.120 But unless you have the health to learn these things, it's just not going to happen.

00:33:15.320 My main mantra is there's no STEM without fitness.

00:33:21.340 Right.

00:33:21.920 We've had guests on the podcast talking about the cognitive benefits of fitness, particularly

00:33:26.160 in children and schools that make play or physical activity priority.

00:33:31.060 The kids typically do better.

00:33:32.860 But what's interesting, a lot of public schools particularly have a lot of pressure to perform

00:33:37.780 well in these standardized tests.

00:33:38.980 So to prepare for the standardized test, they take away from PE or outdoor time or play time

00:33:43.780 and the kids don't do better.

00:33:45.660 And it's like, again, you're saying, what are you doing?

00:33:47.680 If you just made PE a priority, this could probably solve that problem of trying to help kids

00:33:52.980 do better on these tests.

00:33:54.100 Absolutely, no question.

00:33:56.660 Absolutely, no question.

00:33:58.680 What's the most important thing we can do to stave off Alzheimer's disease?

00:34:02.720 And that's exercise.

00:34:03.800 It's not crosswords or Sudoku.

00:34:05.660 It's exercise.

00:34:07.440 And the best way to get a STEM, get a smart, healthy kid is exercise.

00:34:13.280 It's the same thing.

00:34:15.300 And that's what we absolutely have to be emphasizing.

00:34:18.640 And as you point out, when we took all the time away from PE, which was mainly where

00:34:24.020 the time came from, for No Child Left Behind in 2002, nothing changed.

00:34:29.580 Nothing really changed with our math and English scores because the kids are not fit enough

00:34:34.300 to learn math and English.

00:34:36.080 So what we have to do is make PE the priority.

00:34:40.060 The physical education teacher is the first violin in the school.

00:34:43.360 That's the person who's really running things, and that's the person who's going to make the

00:34:48.780 difference.

00:34:49.480 When I was doing my psychiatric rotation at the VA hospital, there was a psychologist,

00:34:55.260 a psychiatrist, and a social worker.

00:34:57.640 And the social worker was the guy who was in charge of getting the VA benefits and stuff

00:35:03.080 for these vets.

00:35:03.820 And he said to me, he says, I cure more patients than any of the psychologists and the

00:35:09.860 psychiatrists.

00:35:11.100 And they actually laughed and they nodded because he was right.

00:35:15.240 In other words, that's what we have to be doing in the school.

00:35:19.320 The PE teacher, and you alluded to it before, there's a lot of social issues, again, historic

00:35:26.700 social issues with the PE in our schools.

00:35:29.520 And a lot of kids hated it because they were getting their glasses knocked off, being hit

00:35:35.220 by a volleyball, et cetera, et cetera.

00:35:36.980 We've got to get rid of all that stuff, and we've got to make it fun again because literally

00:35:43.060 that's where the money is.

00:35:45.040 All right.

00:35:45.260 So PE in America, most schools probably aren't doing it.

00:35:48.400 They're not making their kids do it. 0.95

00:35:49.920 If the kid is doing it, they're probably not doing anything in the class.

00:35:53.120 It's like a blow-off class where you can get an EZA.

00:35:55.660 Are there any school districts?

00:35:56.800 You mentioned that one in Illinois that's doing a good job of PE.

00:35:59.760 What does their PE class look like?

00:36:02.480 Well, the problem with them is they have a lot of money.

00:36:07.020 And so if you, again, when you punch up the La Sierra films, punch up the Naperville, Illinois

00:36:12.920 films, and they have pools, and they have kayaks, and they have a beautiful track, and they

00:36:18.880 have all this cool stuff.

00:36:21.060 And that does make it easier.

00:36:23.680 And if we can talk about that unpleasant topic of money, I'm not a technology guy.

00:36:32.440 I'm like you.

00:36:33.500 I'm a Mother Nature guy.

00:36:34.860 I just want to go out and play and hike and get out in the woods.

00:36:38.820 But it is 2022, and kids do like technology.

00:36:43.960 And so with a small investment in technology, at our one school, we just have a step recorder.

00:36:50.160 So if the kid is standing there, they don't stand there, they walk in place because they

00:36:55.200 want to get some step credit.

00:36:57.280 And so there are some technology that can be really useful.

00:37:01.080 And because such a big percentage of kids have iPhones and personal phones already, we

00:37:09.120 can use that for some quantitative information.

00:37:13.060 So again, something to motivate the kids, similar to the Fitbits and the Apple Watches.

00:37:18.980 What sort of, like you mentioned in the book, you have an ideal, like a month-long class of

00:37:24.620 P, like schedules for PE classes.

00:37:27.180 Like what kind of stuff would you like to see kids doing in a PE class?

00:37:30.660 And again, this is under the assumption, your assumption is every kid in the school should

00:37:34.940 be doing PE, whether they're playing a sport or not.

00:37:37.800 So with that said, what would you have these kids be doing in PE?

00:37:41.120 Yeah, so you need to be able to have some certain functional movement patterns.

00:37:47.360 I mentioned, you should be able to run.

00:37:53.020 Ideally, kids could be swimming and cycling, but that's not something you're going to get

00:37:59.060 in PE.

00:38:00.020 You need to be able to defend yourself.

00:38:02.200 So you need to have certain objects flying around.

00:38:04.760 So, so to a certain extent, but it doesn't have to be a volleyball or some projectile

00:38:10.880 that's going to hurt you.

00:38:12.080 You need to be able to swing, you know, hockey stick or a bat or this kind of thing.

00:38:17.280 But these are all really simple things.

00:38:19.620 And they have these big, safe toys now, for lack of a better word, that the kids can use.

00:38:26.260 And again, on the scheme of things compared to a football team, they're cheap, cheap, cheap.

00:38:31.980 And they, they get these movement patterns.

00:38:34.700 They have the kids doing these movement patterns.

00:38:36.940 Obviously core exercises are huge, but it can be fun if you just do it right.

00:38:43.980 And getting out, getting out and running full speed can be fun.

00:38:48.660 If you do it right, if you motivate the kids, if you make it a game and you make it something

00:38:53.440 that they want to participate in and that they see the benefit of, and they're going to see

00:38:58.600 the benefit in their fitness and they're going to see the benefit in, in, in their fun factor.

00:39:03.840 No, a lot of the activities, a lot of them are just games where they're running around.

00:39:08.200 Like your goal is just to get these kids heart going and get a little sweaty so that they

00:39:12.680 can get that physical activity they need.

00:39:15.260 Yeah.

00:39:15.720 That's at the end of the day, that's really all that matters.

00:39:19.480 If it, you know, no kid wants to necessarily just run for 30 minutes, but you know what?

00:39:24.880 That's really the most important thing.

00:39:27.180 Get them sweaty, get that heart pounding, because that's going to get that brain pounding. 0.99

00:39:31.060 And that's, what's going to really make, make the effect, but you know, they can be

00:39:35.440 crawling and they can be kicking and they can be doing all sorts of fun stuff.

00:39:40.220 And most importantly, whenever you can, it's getting the kids outside because we do want

00:39:45.540 these kids to get addicted to mother nature and get rid of their, get rid of their addiction

00:39:50.080 to the computer.

00:39:51.460 I was thinking as you were talking sort of what your goals are for PE, a great platform

00:39:56.500 that you can help teach kids these, you know, basic functional movements is MoveNAT.

00:40:01.520 Have you ever heard of MoveNAT?

00:40:03.040 I have not.

00:40:03.960 So yeah, it was started by this guy, Erwan LaCour.

00:40:05.900 It's based on this thing from the 19th century in France, this guy named Georges Herbert, who

00:40:11.420 had developed this physical culture method called the natural method.

00:40:14.900 And it was all about just teaching and training people how to do basic movements, running,

00:40:20.280 jumping, crawling, climbing, swimming.

00:40:23.880 And he said, if you can just focus on those things, you're going to be good as a human

00:40:27.540 being.

00:40:27.920 And like, I think MoveNAT would be a great platform to teach these kids as move.

00:40:32.320 Because it's fun, it doesn't require any equipment, so there'd be like no extra costs.

00:40:38.460 So that's just an idea too.

00:40:39.720 I would look into that if you're looking in for another way to encourage better PE.

00:40:45.120 Yeah, I love that.

00:40:46.380 But you're making the point.

00:40:48.460 There's nothing magic about this.

00:40:50.740 Dudley Sargent was around 100 years ago, and his name is on the physical therapy school

00:40:56.000 at Boston University.

00:40:57.380 And one of the things I mentioned in the book is that if Dudley Sargent came back and he

00:41:02.460 saw what was going on in a PE class today, he would be horrified.

00:41:06.760 On the other hand, if William Osler showed up and he came to my operating theater today,

00:41:12.280 he would be blown away.

00:41:15.380 PE has not made the gains, but it's also, they don't need to make a lot of gains.

00:41:20.240 We have this, as you point out, back in the 1800s, these basic movements are the same

00:41:26.040 basic movements.

00:41:27.140 There's nothing magical about this because we are the same human beings as we were 100

00:41:33.200 years ago and 100,000 years ago.

00:41:35.420 It doesn't have to be rocket science.

00:41:38.620 So let's say there's a parent listening to this and they're looking at their kid's PE

00:41:41.640 class and like, boy, yeah, my kid's PE class, not great.

00:41:44.980 Any advice to get administrators on board with revamping PE?

00:41:49.680 Because it just seems like PE is one of those things that school districts and school boards

00:41:53.040 kind of give the short shrift to.

00:41:54.480 Absolutely.

00:41:55.680 And I interview on my website, the survivalofthefit.net, I interview a principal, elementary school

00:42:03.360 principal, and she says that.

00:42:04.640 She says, you know, we get to these meetings, principal meetings, and PE is at the end of

00:42:09.480 the schedule, if at all.

00:42:11.460 So yes, for your listeners, survivalofthefit.net.

00:42:15.320 And there, there are letters that you can download to send to your school administrators, to send

00:42:22.080 to your teachers, to send to your PTA members.

00:42:25.980 And we can get this revolution, what I call the PE revolution, going from below.

00:42:31.460 The other thing is, as I said earlier, I was down at our statehouse last week.

00:42:36.760 We're trying to do it from above also.

00:42:39.020 So we have a bill in the New Hampshire statehouse right now that's to mandate PE for every kid

00:42:44.260 every day.

00:42:45.820 And if we can, we, if we can do this pincer mechanism from both sides, if we can get the

00:42:50.900 grassroots going and we can get things going in state legislatures, that's when we're going

00:42:55.520 to make the real progress.

00:42:57.440 And I think it's an easy sell.

00:42:58.480 I mean, at least the way you describe in the book, I mean, you can just go to your administrator

00:43:01.900 or school board and say, look, I got something that won't cost that much more extra money

00:43:06.640 or not even any extra money.

00:43:08.260 And it can help with behavior problems in classroom.

00:43:11.060 It can potentially help with test scores.

00:43:13.420 So what do you think?

00:43:14.300 And they're like, oh yeah, I would totally, yeah, let's do that.

00:43:16.200 And it's like, well, yeah, just get the kid moving.

00:43:18.060 Let's have PE every day.

00:43:19.900 Exactly.

00:43:20.780 And, and it's amazing because it's exactly what you say.

00:43:24.760 This is one of those topics where nobody disagrees with me.

00:43:28.880 I mean, this is not a political topic.

00:43:30.760 This is not a religious topic.

00:43:33.600 This is so basic.

00:43:35.440 And every American out there says, yeah, kids don't play.

00:43:39.720 Kids aren't having as much fun as we had when we were kids.

00:43:42.500 What's going on with all that?

00:43:44.080 There's no controversy here, but where the controversy exists is that they're going to

00:43:49.120 get in there and they're going to say, well, we're mandated to have X number of minutes

00:43:53.240 of English every day and X number of minutes of math every day and on and on and on.

00:43:58.380 There's just no room for PE.

00:43:59.960 But what I would tell that administrator and that principal is that any data you have from

00:44:07.360 education that's more than 10 years old is useless.

00:44:11.240 It's absolutely useless because the world changed in the last 10 years.

00:44:16.040 When we weren't looking, the kids became severely addicted to these two-dimensional entertainments.

00:44:23.860 And as you point out, they're on these bloody things for seven and a half hours a day.

00:44:28.600 It's absolutely extraordinary.

00:44:30.260 That happened in the last decade.

00:44:33.360 Anything you know about education, anything you want to think about in terms of teaching

00:44:38.140 math or science or English, forget about all that stuff because this crisis has overwhelmed

00:44:45.160 everything.

00:44:47.360 And let's say there's a parent, they're making these moves to help PE get better in their

00:44:51.720 school district.

00:44:52.420 But it's just, you know, you're dealing with bureaucracy.

00:44:55.080 Things are going to be slow.

00:44:56.320 There's a lot of red tape.

00:44:57.420 Any advice for parents who have kids who are in a school that don't have a robust PE program

00:45:01.540 to get them developing a physical identity?

00:45:04.860 Yeah.

00:45:05.160 The main thing is don't let your child lose the physical identity.

00:45:09.200 Your two-year-old, your three-year-old is fine.

00:45:12.100 They have a physical identity.

00:45:13.240 Let them keep going.

00:45:14.620 Get them outside.

00:45:16.020 Same when we were kids, right? 0.98

00:45:18.080 Kick them outside. 0.96

00:45:19.200 Come back when it gets dark. 0.98

00:45:20.740 It's just if you allow that child to keep their physical identity, they will because

00:45:26.920 mother nature is still more interesting than any video game.

00:45:31.800 If you want to get your kid involved with organized sports and stuff, that's fine too.

00:45:37.160 But make sure the child knows it's their sport.

00:45:40.040 It's not your sport.

00:45:41.280 They don't want you there screaming at refs.

00:45:43.480 They want you there to take them there and be supportive and stuff.

00:45:47.140 But you don't need to go to every game.

00:45:48.940 You don't need to scream at anybody, the coaches or the refs or the kid for that matter.

00:45:54.440 It's all about play.

00:45:56.540 And obviously on the weekends and in the summer, but you want to make, you know, you can look

00:46:03.280 around.

00:46:03.800 Is your kid enjoying the ball sports?

00:46:06.040 Well, maybe they would like to do a mountain biking clinic or it's some kind of swimming

00:46:10.620 activity or horseback riding or any of these things, but they got to get outside and that's

00:46:17.340 where the addiction is going to come.

00:46:18.580 And that's where the positive addiction is going to come.

00:46:21.400 And I imagine just being an example yourself, like your kids pick up on that, like have

00:46:24.260 a culture of physical activity in your family.

00:46:27.400 And that's right.

00:46:27.980 And Brett, that's one of the big problems now is that the adults have lost their physical

00:46:32.140 identity and they have a bad food in the cupboard and they're not being active on the

00:46:38.860 weekends.

00:46:39.240 And so you're right.

00:46:40.040 We're dealing with some parents that just aren't on board, but the vast majority of

00:46:46.040 parents will be for sure.

00:46:48.340 Well, Dan, this has been a great conversation.

00:46:49.680 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:46:52.240 Right.

00:46:53.360 Survivalofthefit.net is the website.

00:46:55.680 We have tons and tons of content there.

00:46:57.960 My email is there at dfoneilmd at gmail.com.

00:47:03.500 And I would just implore anybody to shoot me an email, go to the website, pick up the book.

00:47:08.940 It's available at all the local outlets, your indie bookstore outlets and such, and be part

00:47:14.520 of this PE revolution because truly this is the most important thing.

00:47:18.380 And we've seen this in the last two years with COVID.

00:47:21.160 Fitness is absolutely paramount to everything and it can help and change so many things for the

00:47:28.320 positive.

00:47:29.540 Well, Dan O'Neill, thanks for your time.

00:47:30.480 It's been a pleasure.

00:47:31.720 Thanks, Brett.

00:47:32.420 Anytime.

00:47:33.900 My guest here was Dr.

00:47:34.900 Dan O'Neill.

00:47:35.620 He's the author of the book, Survival of the Fit.

00:47:37.740 It's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:47:39.920 You can find more information about his book at his website, survivalofthefit.net.

00:47:43.720 Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash PE, where you can find links to resources,

00:47:48.060 where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:47:56.660 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast.

00:47:59.500 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives,

00:48:03.240 as well as thousands of articles that we've written over the years about pretty much anything

00:48:05.920 you can think of.

00:48:06.700 And if you'd like to enjoy ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast, you can do so on Stitcher

00:48:10.160 Premium.

00:48:10.700 Head over to stitcherpremium.com, sign up, use code manliness.

00:48:13.440 So check out for a free month trial.

00:48:14.820 Once you're signed up, download the Stitcher app on Android, iOS, and you can start enjoying

00:48:18.100 ad-free episodes of the AOM podcast.

00:48:19.960 And if you haven't done so already, I'd appreciate if you take one minute to give us a review

00:48:22.720 on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

00:48:24.340 Helps out a lot.

00:48:25.060 And if you've done that already, thank you.

00:48:26.660 Please consider sharing the show with a friend or family member who you think would get something

00:48:29.700 out of it.

00:48:30.260 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:48:31.940 Until next time, it's Brett McKay.

00:48:33.240 Remind yourself on the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:48:36.700 I'm Matt McKay.

00:48:38.880 I'm-

00:48:55.660 I'm-

The Art of Manliness - February 02, 2022

We Need a P.E. Revolution

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