The Art of Manliness - What Lifting Ancient Stones Can Teach You About Being a Man

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.760 For millennia, stone lifting was an important part of cultures around the world, and its

00:00:16.100 significance went far beyond feats of strength. Stone lifting was part of weddings and funerals,

00:00:21.240 used as a job interview to assess someone's fitness as a farmhand, and included in rites

00:00:25.620 of passage and test of all-around manhood. Much of the world's ancient stone lifting culture

00:00:30.240 has been forgotten, and rocks that used to be hoisted regularly in town squares and cemeteries

00:00:34.400 have been sitting untouched for hundreds of years. David Keown, an Irish world champion

00:00:39.100 kettlebell lifter turned amateur folklorist, has set out to change that. In the last couple

00:00:43.880 of years, David has been on the hunt for Ireland's legendary lifting stones. He uses oral and written

00:00:49.120 history to search them out and learn their stories, and then hoist them himself, once

00:00:53.480 again putting wind under stones that haven't been picked up for centuries. Today on the

00:00:57.640 show, David shares the significance of stone lifting around the world, and specifically

00:01:01.240 in Irish culture, the practicalities of lifting a 400-pound stone off the ground, and what stone

00:01:06.100 lifting has taught him about being a man. After the show's over, check out our show notes

00:01:10.040 at aom.is slash stone lifting. David Keown, welcome to the show.

00:01:23.920 Thank you so much for having me, Brett. Really appreciate it, man.

00:01:25.880 So you are a world champion kettlebell lifter, who has also become an expert archaeologist

00:01:31.780 and folklorist specializing in discovering lost Irish lifting stones. And we're going

00:01:38.380 to talk about your work with lifting stones here on the show. But before we do, let's

00:01:42.700 talk about your fitness and health journey. You got into the strength training game late

00:01:47.880 in your life. What was your life like before you discovered kettlebells, and what got you

00:01:52.020 started with swinging? Yeah, good question. Good question. So Brett, when I started off, like

00:01:57.480 I said, I only got into any fitness or strength or training of any kind at the age of 31, you

00:02:03.100 know. Before that, I was mainly into music and art. I met my wife in art college. So

00:02:07.820 playing in bands, you know, party scene and going out in the night times and, you know,

00:02:12.600 having great crack that way, you know, all the way through my late teens and 20s was party

00:02:17.040 life and drinking and all the rest that goes with it. But then, you know, when you hit your

00:02:21.380 30s, your body kind of says, hold on a second, kid, you got to start looking after yourself

00:02:24.580 now, you know. So I got to 31 and I was just in a really bad place kind of mentally and

00:02:29.300 physically, just not in a good place, not happy with how my body was responding, you

00:02:34.460 know. At that stage, I had young kids. I couldn't run around after them. So I went to a doctor

00:02:39.380 and the doctor was pretty much saying, look, we're going to have to put you on X, Y, and

00:02:42.220 Z medication from now on, you know, heart medication, blood pressure, asthmatic inhalers,

00:02:47.500 all that kind of stuff. So I went out with a doctor's nose to get all this medication.

00:02:51.140 And I decided, how about if I get fit for us, just to myself, you know, let's see if I can

00:02:56.700 get fit and if that will help. If it doesn't help, I'll take the medication anyway. I have

00:02:59.820 nothing else to lose. So I started running and I remember the first time I went running,

00:03:04.340 I couldn't run a hundred yards. I remember trying to run up to the top of my estate and

00:03:08.020 having to go home really badly defeated, you know, lungs falling out, thought I was going

00:03:11.820 to die, you know, just in a really, really bad place. But I went out the next morning,

00:03:17.020 I was going out in the morning, so no one would see that, the kind of heavy guy running,

00:03:19.400 you know, was up around a hundred kgs, maybe over it, which for my height, I'm only five

00:03:24.260 foot nine. So that's, it's not a healthy place to be, but I started going out every morning

00:03:28.000 running and I was running. And after about four to six weeks, I was hitting 5k. My breathing,

00:03:34.000 my respiratory problems, which I was diagnosed as asthmatic, that was gone. My blood pressure

00:03:38.160 was coming down. I was eating healthier. I was just feeling better. You know, I never

00:03:42.340 really understood what feeling healthy felt like because I never done any training in my life

00:03:46.680 or sports the whole way through. I was on a totally different path. But then I started

00:03:50.960 feeling what feeling healthy felt like. I was like, this feels great. So I just kept

00:03:56.360 the running going. And with about six months later, I ran my first marathon, which kind

00:04:01.580 of was the light bulb moment for me. It was like an epiphany moment. It was like, you've

00:04:05.660 done something difficult that not a lot of people in the world do. Kind of what else can

00:04:09.220 you do? And from there I got into kettlebell training and like just hit classes and just

00:04:14.700 training in a gym with light kettlebells, 12s, 16s, 20 kgs. But the gym I was in just so

00:04:21.340 happened to have the only kettlebell sport team in Munster, which is the province I live

00:04:26.060 in in Ireland. And just got into kettlebell training then and got into the sport end of

00:04:31.220 it. Because I was told like your body will suit it. You've got long arms, you've got a

00:04:34.980 sharp torso, so you'll find it easy to rest in like rack position and stuff. So just got

00:04:39.720 into this crazy Russian endurance strength sport in 2012 and just had some fantastic years

00:04:45.320 with that, you know.

00:04:46.360 Are you still competing professionally?

00:04:49.100 No, I set myself goals, Brett, at the very start of my kettlebell career. Because I remember

00:04:54.920 watching, going down to 2013 and watching the European champions were held just about 15

00:04:59.680 minutes down the road from me. And seeing these guys lifting two 32 kilo kettlebells for 10 minutes

00:05:04.080 straight, clean and jerk, you know, and just being amazed, amazed that a human body could

00:05:10.040 do that. Because I was lifting two 16s at that stage and that was difficult, you know, to get

00:05:14.080 to 10 minutes. But watching these guys was like, okay, I want to do this. I want to get up to

00:05:18.240 the 32s. So I trained like a demon for the next couple of years. And I got onto the amateur

00:05:23.760 Irish kettlebells sport team in 2014, lifting two 24s. And believe me, two 24s for distance

00:05:31.120 is difficult to go out and pick up a pair of 24 kilo kettlebells and clean and jerk them even 10

00:05:35.700 times in a row and tell me how you feel. So we were doing that for between 62 to 100 reps in

00:05:42.040 sessions. 78 reps actually won me the world title in 2015. So like 78 times in a row without putting

00:05:49.140 them down. So you can imagine how attritional that is on your, you know, on your cardio. So it took a lot

00:05:53.600 of technique training and a lot of work. But I set myself up with my goals. Like I said, I won my

00:05:58.400 world championships. I won my European championships, nationals, set a world record, competed on 32s,

00:06:03.300 got my master of sports, hit everything I wanted to hit. And I bowed out gracefully at the end of 2019.

00:06:09.160 Well, this is interesting. I don't know much about the sport aspect of kettlebell. So it's not just a

00:06:13.000 strength component. It's actually an endurance event. It's more an endurance. I call it strength

00:06:16.860 endurance. The close thing it reminds me of, Brad, is Olympic rowing.

00:06:20.180 Okay. So it's, it's just to be able to put in max effort for a short, in short bursts for a long

00:06:27.100 distance. You know, so I mean, you think about you're lifting two 32s and you're lifting them

00:06:32.000 for, for 10 minutes straight. So I mean, I was doing about between four to six RPM with that.

00:06:36.480 So you have to be able to relax yourself in certain positions. You can't stand there braced with a

00:06:40.540 couple of 32s for 10 minutes. Your body just won't be able to do it, you know? So it was all about

00:06:44.380 technique and using your body as efficiently as possible. It's actually a really cool sport.

00:06:47.880 So you did the kettlebell training. How did you discover stone lifting?

00:06:53.180 Yeah. Like I said, I'd hit all these goals and I'm just so proud to say that I could do that,

00:06:57.520 you know, especially when things like, like world records and stuff, which still stands,

00:07:01.140 thank God. But I just done this really cool thing in my life. You know, I finished that in 2019.

00:07:05.840 I'm just kind of, what am I going to do now? You know, what's next? And then COVID struck.

00:07:11.280 So like they took COVID very, very seriously. Like the very stringent lockdowns over here.

00:07:15.420 You know, we were in a 5k lockdown. We couldn't leave. There was Gardaí on the streets. It was

00:07:20.100 just crazy couple of years. So I had no access to a gym and I only had like maybe just two kettlebells

00:07:25.340 in the shed. Cause I don't know my training in the gym. Like everybody does. You go to the gym,

00:07:27.860 I was in the gym three or four days a week and all the training equipment was there. I didn't need to

00:07:30.920 buy anything, but all of a sudden that was taken away from me. So all I had at the back, like I said,

00:07:34.800 I met my wife in art college. I had this large stone carving that my wife done in art college,

00:07:39.960 beautiful stone carving on a plinth. And I weighed that on the kitchen scales over COVID because

00:07:45.660 we were in this like really tight lockdown. It weighed 61 kilos. I was like, that's an

00:07:49.640 interesting weight, you know? So I started picking that up and I started really enjoying the feel or

00:07:54.960 the primal aspect of stone lifting. It kind of flicked a switch inside me. You know what I mean?

00:08:00.500 So I was doing that just as a bored human being over COVID, just needing to lift something.

00:08:05.920 I was lifting that stone. And then I saw that Rogue Fitness. I don't know if you've seen them.

00:08:09.660 And if you haven't, you're really sure that the Rogue Fitness documentaries on stone lifting,

00:08:13.460 one in Scotland, one in Iceland, and one in the Basque region of Spain. And they were just

00:08:18.800 speaking so passionately about what stone lifting meant, the history, the heritage, the culture,

00:08:23.840 what it meant to their nation to be lifting stone. And it just, I was enamored. I just fell in love

00:08:28.140 with it. I loved the history aspect of the stone lifting. And that kind of led me down the rabbit

00:08:32.960 hole then of looking for Irish ones, you know? Well, let's talk about stone lifting in general as a 1.00

00:08:37.440 cultural practice. I think people have likely seen stone lifting in strongman competitions.

00:08:42.800 Exactly. I think even in CrossFit, there's the Atlas stone. They'll do that. But this isn't just

00:08:47.900 some sort of made up sport for the modern age. As you said, there's a rich and ancient tradition

00:08:53.360 of heavy stone lifting found around the world. So you mentioned Scotland. They have it in Iceland,

00:08:58.500 they have it in Spain. Before we get into Irish stone lifting specifically, can you talk about

00:09:03.420 stone lifting in general? Besides Scotland and Iceland and Spain, where else do we see

00:09:09.100 heavy stone lifting? And what was the purpose of stone lifting?

00:09:13.460 First of all, I suppose there were so many different purposes to it. And it's in so many

00:09:17.320 cultures around the world. I mean, it's the most ancient form of training. I mean, back in ancient

00:09:20.300 Rome, you have it in ancient Greece. I mean, there's a stone sitting in a Greek museum and it has carved

00:09:26.020 on the side of it. Bybon, son of Fola, lifted this stone over his head. And that stone is, I think it's

00:09:31.860 130 kilos. And that carving was done over 2000 years ago. So I mean, there's stone lifting goes all

00:09:38.440 the way back. I mean, before gyms, which is a relatively new thing, all you had was, was what was

00:09:42.740 in the natural landscape. So heavy stones, heavy tree trunks. It was just that form of training.

00:09:48.020 So it's, it goes all the way back, as far back as you can imagine. It's also very, very,

00:09:52.360 it's huge in Japan. There's massive amount of stone lifting in Japan, in the, like the Pacific

00:09:57.760 Islands, there's massive culture of it there. In Africa, there's an all over, pretty much all over 1.00

00:10:03.340 Europe. So it goes all the way back, like I said. So the purposes of them, I mean, so like say there's,

00:10:09.560 there's three stones in Iceland and they're called the Dridvik stones. And they denoted,

00:10:15.780 they were fishermen's testing stones and they denoted how much of the catch you would get

00:10:19.520 on a fishing boat. So you had the Amlodi, which was 24 kilos. That's called the weakling stone.

00:10:25.360 Then you did the half dreitinger, which was 54 kilos. That's the lightest stone you're allowed

00:10:29.740 to get on the boat with. So you'd have to lift that and you only got a quarter of a share of

00:10:32.940 the catch. Then you could lift the half Sturker, which is 100 kilos. If you could lift the 100 kilos

00:10:37.940 stone, you were half Sturker, you were half strong, which meant you got half a share. And if you could

00:10:42.240 lift the 154 kilo full Sturker stone, you got a full share and you could sit in the middle of the boat

00:10:48.400 and you were one of the top rowers. So it was a way of earning your keep. It was a way of earning

00:10:54.640 your money. Your strength was your worth, how good a husband or provider you were. Also,

00:10:59.140 there's very similar in Sweden with farmhand testing stones. You had the half strong or the

00:11:04.240 full strong stones. If you were a farmhand, you're going to have to be clearing a lot of land.

00:11:08.360 So their test, their job interview was to lift the stone, you know. Then there was all these feet

00:11:13.960 of strength stones, you know, just say somebody who wanted to immortalize themselves for all time

00:11:18.320 and there's a load of them around Iceland and also quite a few of them around Ireland,

00:11:22.200 for somebody to show their great strength lifted a stone and said like a man would consider himself

00:11:27.540 a good man if he could repeat that feat, you know, and people would come from all over.

00:11:31.700 They were lifted at funeral games as respect for the dead. They were lifted at weddings as respect

00:11:37.020 for the living. I mean, their uses go, I mean, there's so many, I could talk about that all day,

00:11:41.920 but more than just picking up something heavy, they had cultural value. They all had cultural worth,

00:11:48.020 you know.

00:11:48.800 Yeah. Well, speaking of like doing lifting stones at a wedding, isn't there like a scene in Braveheart

00:11:54.320 where they're throwing big heavy rocks at a wedding?

00:11:57.700 Exactly.

00:11:57.960 And also you talk about, and what other archaeologists have found, these were like,

00:12:03.020 oftentimes these are a rite of passage for men. Like this is how you determined if you were a man.

00:12:07.680 Exactly. Very much so in Scotland that they had these rite of passage stones. So to become

00:12:12.760 from boyhood to manhood, you had to be able to lift the clan testing stone. And I went over to

00:12:17.940 Scotland about three years ago and I'd done that. We lifted 16 clan testing stones in one day,

00:12:23.320 went around to all the different glens and every glen had its own testing stone, Brett,

00:12:26.020 you know. And every stone was slightly different, like weighed slightly different. But to become

00:12:30.780 a man in the clans, you had to be able to lift this stone either to plinth or to chest,

00:12:35.600 depending on the glen you're in, you know. So because they were like boyhood testing stones,

00:12:39.980 they were all slightly lighter. You're talking anywhere between like 97 kilos up to probably

00:12:43.980 about 120. But I mean, that's still pretty heavy for a stone. I mean, you might laugh at it,

00:12:49.660 anybody who does deadlifting out there, but you go and pick out a hundred kilo stone,

00:12:53.040 120 kilo stone and pick up a 120 kilo barbell or two totally different things.

00:12:57.520 But they're sort of said to you, the boyhood testing stones, and then you had the warrior

00:13:00.260 stones. So to become a warrior, then these were heavier stones. So to become like a bodyguard

00:13:04.820 for the Fief Lord or to become a warrior in the ranks of maybe the FINA, you had to lift a certain

00:13:09.520 stone. So, I mean, the one that really struck me was there's a FINA testing stone. I don't know

00:13:13.680 if you've ever heard of the FINA, but the FINA were a very famous Irish and Celtic warrior band

00:13:18.140 who were mainly in Ireland, but also in Scotland and part of their initiation to become, and like

00:13:23.600 these guys were the best of the best. They were like the SAS of 2000 years ago, you know? So to

00:13:28.220 become the FINA, one of the FINA warriors, one of the tests was to lift the FINA stone and the 0.90

00:13:31.460 FINA stone was 127 kilos of dollarite. And you had to be able to pick that up the chest and walk with

00:13:36.240 it. So, like I said, it's these rites of passage. And that really drew me in because it's something

00:13:41.500 that we don't have anymore, you know? And I feel it's something that we're kind of sorely missing,

00:13:45.960 you know? I mean, because it really brings a culture together. It brings, you know, a clan

00:13:51.500 together. You know, everybody used to gather around and watch these rites of passage. And

00:13:54.920 then like, you know, you became a man, you know, you were a man because you done something

00:13:58.120 difficult. You know, I just, I find that wonderful. Yeah. The clan stones, I know there's a Mackay

00:14:03.060 clan stone in Scotland somewhere. It's been on my bucket list to go like make a pilgrimage.

00:14:07.660 Seriously? And go lift it. Yeah, man, you gotta go. If you can, if you, if you go, you'll just

00:14:11.620 absolutely fall in love with it. I mean, I went to Scotland and driving around the highlands

00:14:15.280 it's, it was just magical is all I can call it. You know, it's really the growl, what

00:14:20.760 we call the growl, the love for stone lifting was cemented in driving around Scotland and

00:14:24.480 meeting all these people because it's not just the lifting the stone. It's the actual

00:14:27.280 area it's in, you know, it's the meeting of the people. It's the hearing the stories

00:14:30.680 and the history. That's, that's what I draw you in.

00:14:33.540 Oh, well, let's talk about Irish stone lifting specifically. That's what you're an expert

00:14:37.360 in. And something you point out is that unlike these other stone lifting cultures, we know 1.00

00:14:43.740 a lot about them, like in Scotland, in Spain, in Iceland, et cetera. The Irish stone lifting

00:14:49.540 culture kind of got lost to history. When and why did that happen? Why did it disappear?

00:14:56.660 Right. Okay. There's a lot involved in that. Um, I suppose a lot of it would have to do with

00:15:00.960 our relationship with, with England, you know, with imperialism and colonialism. We were a colonized

00:15:07.260 nation up until just under 100 years ago. So a lot of our ancient rites of passage and our strength

00:15:15.700 was kind of taken away from us along with our culture and our language, you know, um, I'm not

00:15:21.740 going to get too nationalist about this, but, um, a lot of that was taken from us, which then culminated

00:15:26.920 in the great famine or genocide, whatever you want to look at it in the 1840s, where the Irish people

00:15:34.880 were literally just living on potatoes because that's all they could afford. And then there was

00:15:41.180 a massive potato blight in the forties, which killed half the nation, half the nation died or

00:15:46.240 emigrated between 1845 to 1848. So you can imagine a lot of stones, a lot of stories, and a lot of

00:15:54.680 people from these areas where the stones were lifted either died or moved to America or, you know,

00:16:00.160 moved to Britain or moved there to Europe. So it was this huge, huge cultural rift that happened,

00:16:07.260 you know? So, and you can imagine, I mean, if people are dying from starvation, the last thing

00:16:11.780 you want to do is lift something heavy off the ground. You can barely lift yourself up off the

00:16:14.420 ground. So that would probably be the main reason for this stop because all these historians and all

00:16:18.920 these people I'm meeting in these areas and all these old books that I'm finding, the cutoff point

00:16:23.140 was pretty much 1845. So a lot of the culture was just lost. It was just dead, probably like,

00:16:28.140 you know, through no fault of our own. And all these stories were lost. You know, some of them,

00:16:32.380 thankfully, some of them were written down, but like us, the Irish people, our culture is an oral

00:16:37.640 culture. You know, we're a storytelling people. You know, I think we're kind of renowned for it

00:16:41.220 worldwide. And the stories stayed, you know, father to son and mother to daughter, the stories of the

00:16:48.140 stones remained and they were carried on down through the years. And I'm still finding, Brett,

00:16:53.620 when I go to these places, there's always someone who will know about it. You know,

00:16:57.940 there's always somebody who still knows the story that was passed down from his father and his great

00:17:02.600 grandfather and all the way back. It's only a couple of people, you know, you were probably

00:17:06.720 within maybe two generations of this being lost altogether. But that's why I'm just so happy to

00:17:11.260 be able to bring, to be part of the resurgence and the kind of the re-emergence of Irish strength

00:17:16.860 culture, but also Irish strength. You know what I mean? We were beaten down for so long

00:17:19.860 from, like I said, colonialism and from other things as well, you know, but to be part of this,

00:17:25.880 there's this whole cultural wave coming back, even in the last, they can feel it in the last five

00:17:29.260 years. People are so proud now to be Irish and their culture is coming back, the language is coming

00:17:33.700 back and our strength is now coming back. And I'm just, it's such an honor to be a part of that.

00:17:38.860 What role did stone lifting play in Irish culture?

00:17:42.160 Yeah. I mean, like, so all these stories are so cool because there was every Sunday, there was

00:17:48.220 what they call the trials of strength. So, because I mean, people had nothing, you know,

00:17:52.940 it was probably a culture of boredom as well. So, I mean, people used to meet up on Sundays at the

00:17:56.340 local crossroads or in places of cultural merit, you know? So like say at wharfs or like harbors.

00:18:03.880 So all the men would meet up before or after mass and they would lift these stones on the Sundays,

00:18:09.820 you know? And you got great social status for being able to lift some of these stones. I mean,

00:18:13.780 who could lift them the highest? You know, the men spoke them with honor and, you know,

00:18:17.100 the women might find you more attractive. And, you know, that was the, to try the strength on

00:18:21.360 the Sundays. And also they were very important at funeral games. Like you were saying with the

00:18:24.840 Scottish ones, there was a lot of these graveyards and like probably about 70% of the stones I'm

00:18:29.380 finding are in graveyards. And these were the testing stones of the funeral games. And like

00:18:33.400 funerals pre-1840s used to last maybe two or three days. So they would have a whole day of funeral

00:18:38.860 games, like almost like a celebration of life, you know? So they have like collar and elbow

00:18:43.540 wrestling, they'd have running, they'd have leaping and they'd have stone lifting. So

00:18:48.480 they were part of, of the culture, you know, they were deeply ingrained in who we are as

00:18:52.380 a people. And it's great to see them coming back now.

00:18:55.780 Okay. Let's walk us through about how you find these stones, because you had to become

00:19:00.840 like, you weren't an archeologist or a folklorist before you found these stones, but you had to

00:19:05.580 become one to discover them. Where does your research start?

00:19:08.360 Yeah. So the research, it used to start because when I started this, like there was no one

00:19:13.980 that had any interest in this, only me, you know, and it was just me going off on this

00:19:17.660 kind of innocent journey by myself. So my first stone that I found was, it was just such an

00:19:22.960 awesome story. Cause like I went on to Google, Brett, and I just typed in Irish lifting stones

00:19:29.020 and you know, nothing came up. But after a little bit of research, I found it was a man called

00:19:33.560 Dr. Conor Heffernan, who is a professor actually up in Ulster University. And he had a piece

00:19:37.860 written about the possibility of Irish lifting stones. He's a professor of like sociology and

00:19:43.000 strength history. So I was reading his piece and he'd mentioned a man called Limo Flaherty.

00:19:48.140 Limo Flaherty is a very famous Irish writer, essayist, and short story writer. And he'd written

00:19:54.060 a story called The Stone. So like Limo Flaherty's out of print now, but so I ordered his book and then

00:20:00.240 I got this book called The Stone. And like, it's only about a nine page short story, but the way

00:20:07.380 he described the stone in this story was so vivid. I was like, that has to be a real thing. You know,

00:20:13.400 unless he's the best writer I've ever read, the way he describes the stone, the area it's in,

00:20:18.460 the way it made him feel when he lifted it. I'm like, this guy had lifted this stone. I mean,

00:20:21.940 there's one piece in particular, I'll read it to you if you don't mind. So this is an excerpt from

00:20:26.240 Limo Flaherty's story called The Stone. It was a round block of granite and it sparkled as the

00:20:31.400 sunshine shone on the particles of mica in its surface. It lay on the ground on a clear space

00:20:35.880 between the rocks. All around it, there were bruised stones bruised to a powder and where it

00:20:39.920 lay, there was a little hollow. That stone had lain in that place as long as the oldest traditions in

00:20:44.160 the village could remember. And from time immemorial, it had been the custom of the young men of the

00:20:48.240 village to test their strength by lifting it. I was like, that's such a cool line. That grabbed me

00:20:52.540 straight away. And this is on Inishmore, which is a small island off the

00:20:56.180 west coast of Galway. So I was like enamored with this story. So I just started researching

00:21:01.900 the Aran Islands. And I found that there was a woman online who was speaking on a Reddit thread

00:21:07.060 about 10 years ago called Fiona. And she was speaking to the great Peter Martin, who was the

00:21:10.860 stone finder over in Scotland. And she was like, yeah, the story that Liam O'Flaherty wrote about

00:21:15.080 is true. She said, it's a real thing. The stone is a real stone. It's down on this pathway in

00:21:19.840 Gortna Koppel. And I think it's still there. She's always written out and read it. I was like,

00:21:25.300 are you serious? So straight away, I jumped into a camper van. My friends, we drove like

00:21:30.080 four and a half hours over to Galway. I got on the ferry and walked down, sorry, cycled

00:21:34.220 down to this place. It's a 25 minute cycle. And we got to this rough Bola Stream pathway

00:21:37.700 in Gortna Koppel. And I was just looking around and like, the Aran Islands is just stone. It's

00:21:43.520 like walking on the surface of the moon. It's just rocks. It's this glacial karist landscape. 0.99

00:21:47.100 It's just rocks everywhere, you know? So like, how am I going to know which rock is the rock?

00:21:51.040 You know, there's tens of thousands of them here, but I was walking down and I had this

00:21:55.080 book in front of me and I was reading it and it said it lay in the ground in clear space

00:21:59.860 between the rocks. And I was walking down this pathway and I could see this pink stone in

00:22:04.080 a field of gray, just this pink stone standing out like a beacon. And I walked down and there

00:22:09.700 it was with these bruised stones all around it. And I was like, that has to be it. Do you

00:22:14.300 know when something calls you? Like that has to be it, you know? So it just so happened that

00:22:18.240 there was a guy giving a walking tour with a couple of Americans. And I went up and accosted

00:22:22.840 him and said, look, excuse me. I said, I have to ask you, sorry for interrupting. Do you know

00:22:26.360 about the lifting stone? Oh yeah, that's it down there. He said, and I was like the pink

00:22:29.000 one. He said, yeah, the pink one there on the patch of grass. He said, yeah, we call

00:22:31.160 it the Moulin. The Moulin Port Féland-Dune. He had a name for it as well, you know? So that

00:22:36.360 was it. That was our first lifting stone found in Ireland. And it came from a story, a book

00:22:40.840 written back in 1927. And I'd say no one had probably lifted it since 1927 because no one

00:22:46.320 in living memory had lifted on the island because I asked a lot of the old islanders.

00:22:49.960 So that was the very first one, which is kind of almost fell into my lap. The next two or

00:22:53.480 three was the same. And then I went on to the Irish government. One of the best things

00:22:57.500 they ever done back in 1927, they put folklore on the school curriculum. So they said to the

00:23:03.540 school kids, like 12 year old kids, go back to your mom and dad and granddads and ask them

00:23:09.100 about your local traditions or folklore in your local area. So for three years, folklore was

00:23:15.420 on the school curriculum and all the children and all the schools in all of Ireland collected

00:23:20.260 tens of thousands of stories about, you know, anything that happened, whether it be battles

00:23:25.440 or old mythologies, but also there was folk heroes and local heroes and strong men and

00:23:31.460 strong women. Dina Kallula, they call them. And that's all collated and it's up in a library

00:23:36.460 up in Dublin. So I just started reading that. They actually have it all digitized now online

00:23:40.160 as well. It's called Dukas, Dukas.ie. And I started scanning through Dukas and looking

00:23:44.160 for stories of stones. And I found about eight or 10 from those old stories. But I mean,

00:23:48.360 it's amazing because like you said, you feel like Indiana Jones because you're reading through

00:23:52.180 these old stories that are a hundred years old and then you're driving to these places

00:23:55.820 and some of them are so old, they're not even on Google Maps. And then you're just asking

00:23:59.160 locals and they're, you know, some people might know, but then they point you to a guy who

00:24:02.180 does know and he's like, yeah, it's just over there or across that field. And then you walk into

00:24:06.000 this field and it might be this old room church and beside the church will be this totally

00:24:09.420 out of place stone, which is the lifting stone of the area. You know, it's, it's just been

00:24:13.300 incredible. It's been an absolute adventure story over the past couple of years, you know.

00:24:19.180 We're going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors.

00:24:23.740 And now back to the show. And as your work has gotten more publicity, are people coming

00:24:28.200 out of the woodwork to share where stones are?

00:24:30.780 Oh man. Yeah. The difference now, you know, because it, like I said, it started off with me just

00:24:34.920 like with a billhook in my car, just driving around Ireland, you know, and hacking through 0.84

00:24:39.260 hedges and sometimes find them, sometimes not. But now, because I just can't, I can't believe

00:24:44.980 the publicity it's been getting, you know, it's been kind of jarring a little bit, but

00:24:49.220 like in a good way, because now it's something I wasn't expecting. I was going to be doing

00:24:53.080 this anyway, but people have lashed onto it. Like I said, it's this whole cultural resurgence

00:24:56.900 that's happening over Ireland. There's this wave of national pride that's there now,

00:25:00.860 you know, and people are, have just fallen in love with this journey. So there's people

00:25:05.560 coming, like I said, coming out of the woodwork. There's literally, I'm just back from like

00:25:09.220 Saturday, three days ago. I'm back with another find down in, in County Cork, you know, that

00:25:13.820 a man said, I was just talking to a local woman asking for directions. And she said, yeah,

00:25:17.840 it's just down there past the lifting stone on the right hand side. You know, he's like,

00:25:20.500 what, what do you mean? Yeah. She had the lifting stone down there on the crossroads.

00:25:24.060 And like, so I said, people in the area know, but nobody else knows, you know? So he phoned me

00:25:28.040 straight away. David, you won't believe it. I'm just after this stone, I just have to fall

00:25:31.360 into my lap. And we went down and we got to lifting that stone on Saturday. And it's, they're just,

00:25:35.980 it's, it's nearly on the weekly note that there's people saying there's one here,

00:25:39.300 there's one here, there's stories here. You know, my, my granddad said, my great granddad

00:25:43.160 was talking to me, you know, it's just, it's awesome. People are falling in love with it now,

00:25:46.840 to be honest with you. And you mentioned a lot of these stones are in cemeteries because

00:25:50.460 they were used in funeral games, correct? Yeah, true, true. Yeah. And I think you mentioned,

00:25:55.140 I think in an interview, the cemeteries also served as a, you're able to do it in secret

00:25:59.280 because at the time, you know, within what you're talking about with the imperialism,

00:26:03.600 there was an attempt to kind of squash these local traditions. And so the Irish would be like,

00:26:08.700 well, we'll go to the cemetery at night and do this. So they don't see us.

00:26:12.640 Exactly. Well, you have like, you get hedge schools, they call them hedge priests who said

00:26:16.740 Catholic mass in graveyards or in ditches, you know, or at mass stones, they call them.

00:26:21.860 So just like at a prominent rock in the area, people would meet and they would say mass there

00:26:26.260 or they would be teaching children Irish because they couldn't teach it in schools. They weren't

00:26:29.960 allowed to. So they were teaching children the Irish language in literally in ditches, 0.94

00:26:33.840 you know, to keep, to keep the culture alive. But there's a stone up in County Cavan, up in a place

00:26:38.240 called Aukrim or Den. There's a stone called the Flag of Den. And the Flag of Den back in the 16th and

00:26:44.780 17th centuries was a mass stone. So this is where the Catholic priests would come and say mass

00:26:50.700 on this stone. And there's a big cross carved into the top of it. It's about three and a half foot

00:26:56.180 long, three foot wide. And there's a carved cross in the top of it. And that was used as a mass rock

00:27:00.040 to say Catholic mass in a graveyard with people on the lookout for British soldiers, you know?

00:27:04.820 So the history behind these things is incredible. I mean, that's 16th, 17th century when we were

00:27:08.520 under penal law. But before that, that stone was also used as what they call a pagan cursing stone.

00:27:14.600 So, I mean, Ireland is also full of these cursing stones that if you could flip a stone over or

00:27:18.620 turn it anti-clockwise, you could lay what they call a pishog or a curse on someone who'd done

00:27:23.800 you wrong. So this was a pagan cursing stone pre-Catholicism, which only came to Ireland maybe

00:27:28.540 in the year 700. So, I mean, that stone is, the history behind it is absolutely unbelievable. So

00:27:33.780 pagan cursing stone, then a Catholic altar stone. And then it was also used from the 17th century as

00:27:40.220 a lifting stone. So the men at funerals, all the strong men from the different parishes would see,

00:27:44.480 could they lift that stone to their knees? And if you could lift that massive flagstone to your knees,

00:27:48.620 that was word of you, getting into Ducas or being spoken of with massive respect in your local area.

00:27:53.520 And I'm really, really proud to say that I found that stone. It was really difficult to find

00:27:56.420 because there's no one had cut the graveyard I was in in over 20 years. So like the weeds were eight

00:28:01.520 feet tall. I was there with a billhook for two and a half hours and I managed to find that stone

00:28:05.460 and I managed to get a lift on it up to my knees. So just, yeah, it was just an amazing moment.

00:28:09.520 Like, I mean, the history in that thing is incredible.

00:28:13.180 How many stones have you discovered so far?

00:28:14.900 Right. But including last weekend of 31 with, with, um, another three coming in the next month

00:28:21.140 with leads. So 31 found 31. And then with all these stones, you do attempt to lift them, correct?

00:28:27.620 Oh, I do more than attempt.

00:28:29.200 All right. You do. Okay.

00:28:31.320 I've lifted, I've lifted all barrel one. So I'm really, really proud to say that because the

00:28:36.460 airs lifting stones, Brett are massive. They're really, really heavy. I'm talking average

00:28:40.780 about 170 kilos. Wow. So, I mean, the, the, the, the, the Lima Flaherty stone is 171. Like the

00:28:46.320 Flag of Den is, is roughly 220, you know? So I mean, they're, they're absolutely mahoosive.

00:28:51.500 What's the heaviest stone you've lifted and found?

00:28:54.280 The heaviest stone, I think would be the Flag of Den, um, at 220. But I mean, the one,

00:28:57.720 the one last weekend we weighed it at 203. That's not too far off, the one down in Cork. And like

00:29:02.560 a lot of these, it was just, you had to get what they call getting the wind under them,

00:29:05.520 getting the, the Guay Fua, the wind under it. So just to get it off the ground was the valid lift,

00:29:10.260 you know? Okay. Okay. I was going to ask you the valid, so as long as you get it off the ground,

00:29:13.740 you're good. Some of them, yeah. Depend on the area. You know, there's all these different,

00:29:17.520 different rules in the different areas. Some of them, it was literally just to get the Guay Fua,

00:29:21.380 get the wind under it. Some of them, it was to get them to your knees. Some of them was to get

00:29:24.960 them to your, your chest. So it all depended on the area you're in, you know? What's the oldest stone

00:29:29.900 you found? Oh, I mean, there's, there's, there's a good few of them are, are pre-Christian.

00:29:35.020 Oh, wow. Um, so, you know, there's one I found on the Island of Inish Boffin,

00:29:38.740 which is an ancient enchanted island, actually off the West coast of Mayo.

00:29:42.840 That's a Boulogne stone. So Boulogne stone was a Druidic offering stone. So like a Druidic

00:29:47.260 offering bowl to the old Celtic gods, like, like Lou or Cromcroach. And like, you're talking

00:29:52.600 two, two and a half thousand, maybe 3000 years old, you know, that that was used as a day,

00:29:57.500 as a, like a conduit to deities well before Christianity came here. So, I mean,

00:30:03.300 you're talking thousands of years old.

00:30:04.700 I mean, is there an estimate of how many stones there might be in Ireland?

00:30:09.780 I mean, I remember talking to somebody on a podcast like this two years ago, and we just

00:30:14.620 found the first one, you know, we'd found the Lima Flaherty stone. And I remember there's been

00:30:18.760 a huge deal. And I remember getting wicked emotional about it because like, we'd finally

00:30:21.840 gotten on the map. You know, we were back, we had one stone. I was talking to a, um, a famous man

00:30:27.180 called Stevie Shanks, whose dad, Jack Shanks is one of the most prominent dinny stone lifters in the

00:30:32.180 world. And, uh, Stevie's saying, imagine if we got 10 stones, he was there. Imagine if we got 10,

00:30:36.840 but double figures would not be incredible. And I remember thinking, you know, I hope so,

00:30:41.360 but it's doubtful because I didn't know where to even look at that stage. So, I mean, for me to go

00:30:45.600 from one to 31 in just under two years, I mean, I really think this guy's the limit on this because

00:30:51.420 I think this was a nationwide culture. You know, it's not just concentrated in one area. It's a

00:30:56.840 nationwide culture. And I think practically, I would say almost every village in Ireland,

00:31:00.540 every crossroads had a testing stone, you know, whether it was a putting stone or a lifting

00:31:05.240 stone. So I'm thinking there could be hundreds. I think there could be hundreds over here.

00:31:09.720 So you're not just finding these stones and lifting them. You're also cataloging the stories.

00:31:14.600 You've become a folklorist. Are there any stones that have a unique story that you're fond of?

00:31:21.060 Oh, I mean, they're all incredible. I mean, they're all of the stories.

00:31:24.580 All of the stories are just amazing. You know, it's hard to pinpoint one down.

00:31:32.380 Do you think in the likes of maybe something like magical attached to it?

00:31:35.420 Yeah, let's do that. I want like something magical. I want something mythical.

00:31:39.300 So, I mean, the stone, let's just say that the last one I found, you know, it's called

00:31:44.180 Cloak on Kahir Daruk, which means the stone of the red chair. And it's at the red chair cross

00:31:50.720 in Kildorrary in County Cork. So it's called the red chair cross because the ancient high king of

00:31:57.640 Munster, which is the province I live in in Ireland, was a man called Mahan. And he was killed

00:32:02.480 at that cross in the year 976. And then his younger brother, Brian Beru, who was probably one of the

00:32:08.960 most famous figures in Irish history, he became then the next king of Munster. And then he became the

00:32:14.340 high king of Ireland and he drove out the Vikings, the Danes in the Battle of Clontarf. So, I mean,

00:32:19.760 you're talking, the history behind that thing is absolutely incredible. But I mean,

00:32:24.440 the best mythological one I can think of is the Cloak on Dalla up in County Mayo, which is just

00:32:28.520 unbelievable. It's like, there's giants throwing stones all over Ireland, right? So, I mean,

00:32:33.680 every glacial erratic in Ireland, the mythology behind them was there was a giant who threw the

00:32:40.060 stone from a mountaintop, right? So, I mean, they could be anything up to 60, you know, 100,

00:32:46.000 200 tons, massive, massive stones. But there was this giant throwing stone in Aukagower up in County

00:32:52.640 Mayer. And it said all the stones have that the giant put the mark of his hands in the top of the

00:32:57.660 stone where he squeezed it by soft clay. And this giant used to throw the stone around like a pebble.

00:33:03.100 And then the Irish men in the area used to see where they are strong as the giant. So, they would 1.00

00:33:06.660 also try and lift the stone. So, I thought that was just the coolest story I'd ever heard. It was like,

00:33:10.660 you're telling me that there's a stone that's related to an Irish giant. You know, the marks

00:33:15.520 of his hands, his fingerprints are on the top of the stone where he picked the stone up and squeezed

00:33:19.000 it. And it's still there. So, I went up to that place and it's a five and a half hour drive from

00:33:23.200 where I am in the bottom of Ireland. And I drove into this village and on the village green, right in

00:33:27.300 the middle of the green was this massive stone with these huge fingerprint marks in the top of the

00:33:33.680 stone, you know, thumbprint, fingerprint marks. And that's the giant's throwing stone of Aukagower. 0.98

00:33:39.080 And I got a lift on that, broke the ground with it, weighed it at 182 kilos.

00:33:44.100 But I mean, there's mythology, there's lore. I mean, it's like mythology and reality. And like

00:33:49.040 that stone is the bridge in the middle of the two of them. You know what I mean? It's the bridge

00:33:52.060 between both. And I think that's what stone lifting is, especially in Ireland. It's the intersection of

00:33:56.020 mythology, folklore, and reality. It's just incredible.

00:33:59.140 Are you learning anything about the people and the men who have lifted these stones? Like, I mean,

00:34:03.620 are you sort of learning the genealogy of these stones?

00:34:06.660 Definitely. Definitely. I mean, it's very important. I mean, I don't, it's not a lifting

00:34:10.160 stone unless someone had lifted it before. So there's always a story about a man who'd lifted

00:34:13.680 it. I mean, there's one in Claheen in County Tipperary, where a man called Thomas Lonergan

00:34:18.900 was the only man in the parish who could lift this stone. And up to 200 men would come every

00:34:23.460 Sunday and see if they picked the stone up, but nobody could pick it up, only Thomas Lonergan.

00:34:26.860 So he got massive respect. And it's a wicked awkward stone. I went down and found it's like a

00:34:31.840 rectangular shape. So it's very, very hard to pick up. It weighs 177.5 kilos.

00:34:37.140 And there's no, no one said how high he lifted it. I mean, I got it up myself up to about mid

00:34:41.140 calf, which is a pretty decent lift on an awkward stone. But I had Sean Urquhart, who was probably

00:34:46.400 one of the best natural stone lifters in the world. He came over to me there over the summer

00:34:49.340 and we'd done a stone lifting tour, the very first Irish stone lifting tour. And he picked

00:34:52.860 that stone up to his chest and it was just one of the most amazing things I'd ever seen.

00:34:57.000 It was, it was just incredible. When you're blown away by something, you just, all you can

00:35:00.200 do is laugh. You know, you're like, I can't believe I've seen that, you know, but all of these

00:35:04.780 stones, there's always somebody who had lifted it before. And what you're doing is you're

00:35:08.480 putting your hands with, they put their hands, anything up to a thousand, 2000 years ago.

00:35:12.620 So I just think that's just so cool. You're reaching back to the past and you're grabbing

00:35:15.420 onto these people through the stone, you know?

00:35:17.380 Yeah, that is really cool. Is there a place where you're cataloging this? So people,

00:35:21.180 other people can see and learn about this or contribute? Are you doing this online?

00:35:25.420 Yeah, I'm doing it online. I mean, I'm also writing a book. I'm the process of, I'm nearly

00:35:29.120 finished writing the book. Actually, the book is literally almost like a diary of my grail

00:35:33.700 diary, I suppose you call it, of the finds, the meeting, the people, the stories and the

00:35:38.480 lifting of the stone, how it felt, all that kind of stuff. But if you want to find me online,

00:35:41.280 I'm down as Indiana Stones online, Indiana Stones on Instagram. So if you hit me up on that,

00:35:47.920 you'll just see me lifting a massive pink boulder. You can't miss me. And all of the stories are on

00:35:53.780 that as well.

00:35:54.600 On there. Well, let's talk about stone lifting. Let's say someone's listening to this and they're

00:35:58.320 like, I want to lift one of these stones. I want to go, I want to go to Scotland and lift

00:36:01.760 the clan McKay, McKay stone. But here's the thing. If you deadlift 405 pounds, 500 pounds,

00:36:09.620 600 pounds, you might think, well, I'm really strong. Lifting a 400 pound stone, that is really

00:36:15.180 difficult. Like what makes lifting a stone so hard?

00:36:19.240 I mean, like, first of all, your surroundings dictate the lift. You're outside, you know,

00:36:22.780 you're not in a nice, comfortable, warm gym. You're in Scotland, you're in Ireland,

00:36:26.180 mainly in the west of Ireland. It's a lot of the time it's lashing rain. The ground is

00:36:29.940 wet. It's muddy. And your footing is, isn't great. You know, then you've got the texture

00:36:35.180 of the stone. You know, it could be a very, very round stone, especially some of the ones

00:36:38.220 in Scotland. They're very, very rounded. They've been run through rivers for thousands of years.

00:36:42.620 So they're smooth like marble, you know, so your grip becomes an issue. You're also going

00:36:47.140 down lower. You're going down like to grass level. You're going down to the ground. You're

00:36:50.640 not picking up a nice knurled bar with chalk. You're picking up something that's on the

00:36:55.360 ground. And the center of gravity is difficult. You know, it's, it's awkward. It's oddly shaped.

00:37:00.780 A lot of the ones in Ireland are very oddly shaped. So you have to find the center of 0.53

00:37:03.940 gravity and then you're pulling from a lower position. So like you're not pulling from

00:37:07.700 a nice upright deadlift position. You're pulling from a much lower position. So like your glutes

00:37:13.640 and your hamstrings and your hips have been very, very strong. You know, it's a totally different

00:37:17.440 thing. I mean, the way I describe it to people is if you watch the Arnolds, you know, I watch

00:37:21.420 the Arnolds strongman events. You've guys over there who deadlifted maybe 450 kilos, well

00:37:25.720 over 400 kilos, but they're lifting the Bill Auden tombstone, they call it, which is 186.

00:37:31.060 And a lot of those guys can't even pick that stone up, you know? So you're talking like

00:37:35.020 they're going well over double that in a deadlift and they can pick it up relatively easily,

00:37:40.740 but some of them can't pick up a 186 kilo stone even inside with tacky towels. So it just

00:37:46.720 goes to show you how difficult it is to pick up an oddly shaped object as opposed to something

00:37:50.180 that's made to be lifted, like a barber.

00:37:52.580 Is there like a technique you need to use so you don't injure yourself during the lift

00:37:57.240 or is it just trial and error? Because I mean, like with deadlift, right? There's like a specific

00:38:01.100 technique you use, right? You set your back, extend your lower back so your back's not rounded

00:38:05.640 and then you obviously can't do that when you're lifting a stone. So how do you lift a stone

00:38:10.560 without getting yourself a hernia?

00:38:12.020 I mean, everybody's like, yeah, yeah. Like everybody's biomechanics are different. Everybody's

00:38:16.760 lever lengths are different. I mean, I'm lucky I've got really long arms. So I can get down

00:38:20.520 to a nice neutral position, keep my back straight and use my legs. You know, it's all legs.

00:38:25.600 You know, of course your back has to be strong, but I mean, I'm pretty much, I'm feeling it

00:38:28.840 in my hamstrings and my hips and my glutes and a little bit of lower back then as it comes

00:38:32.880 up a bit higher. But it's pretty much a deadlift feel for me when I'm doing it. But I mean,

00:38:37.540 I've seen guys lift with slightly around the backs, you know, and I know, I know a lot of

00:38:41.840 stonewriters online now and I've seen them and my God, are they some strong people, you

00:38:45.420 know? But again, like you have to be careful, like anything, you have to start light and

00:38:49.340 get your technique right first. So do what feels right for you. If it feels comfortable,

00:38:53.780 start light, you know, start around the 40, 50, 60, 70 kilo mark and just start building

00:38:59.020 reps. And as you get stronger, just keep going with that same technique. And as long as it feels

00:39:03.760 comfortable, keep going with it.

00:39:04.700 Do you develop programming for stones? Like let's say you discover a stone and it's really

00:39:09.220 heavy. Do you think about what can I do so I prep myself so I can lift that stone? Or

00:39:13.800 do you just go in there? Like, I'm just going to make the attempt. No training required.

00:39:17.540 I'm coming from kettlebell sports, which is strength endurance. I mean, I never lifted heavy,

00:39:21.100 you know, before. I never lifted heavy. So I mean, then I'm coming to some of the heaviest

00:39:24.840 lifting stones in the world, the aerostones. Like they're some of the heaviest in the world.

00:39:27.760 This is like the boss level now, you know? So it's like you're coming in at some of the

00:39:32.680 the heaviest lifting stones in the world, but without a massive strength background. So

00:39:34.980 I mean, I've had to work really hard over the past two years to be able to lift these

00:39:39.140 stones up. But yeah, what I have done is I'm just using it like say a linear deadlift

00:39:43.020 program, but I'm applying that with stone lifting. So what I have is a load of different kettlebells

00:39:49.020 in weights at the back garden and have a nice flat stone. So I'm just using that flat stone

00:39:53.120 as almost like a base. It weighs 90 kilos of stone and I'm stacking kettlebells on top of

00:39:57.020 that. And using that as almost like a deadlift strength day twice a week. So I've built that

00:40:01.880 up now to where I'm like, I'm, I'm doubling 180 kilos off the ground. So I'm from the 90

00:40:06.680 kilo stone with the 42 and a 48 kilo kettlebell. But I've built that up over, over two years.

00:40:11.320 I mean, I remember going over to the Lima Flaherty stone bread and I couldn't budge it.

00:40:14.240 I couldn't get it an envelope's width off the ground and weighs 171 kilos. So I put in 16 months

00:40:19.460 of training and I went back and I lifted it in front of a crowd about three months ago. And it

00:40:23.100 was just an incredible validation for putting in hard work because like, you're not

00:40:27.000 just going to be able to pick up these things straight away. You have to work at it. You

00:40:30.120 know, to stone state stone is always going to be the same. It's always going to be the same

00:40:32.940 way to stone ways the same from one year to the next. But what do you have to do to get

00:40:36.800 better at lifting it? You have to get stronger. So write your program and off you go, you know.

00:40:41.800 And what's been interesting about, you know, because of your work and the work of other

00:40:45.980 people reviving stone lifting in other countries and other cultures, it's starting to spread.

00:40:50.960 So even if you live in the United States that doesn't have a stone lifting culture, 1.00

00:40:54.780 you're actually starting to see stone lifting cultures develop in the United States. I think 0.99

00:40:59.100 there's some places and some of the states, yeah, some of the states are developed. Yeah. Utah's got

00:41:05.780 like a lifting culture where there's like lifting stones throughout the state. 0.96

00:41:10.840 Yeah. Ohio, Sean Norquhart has his in Ohio as well. You've Utah, you have, then you have the guys in

00:41:15.580 Canada, the Edmonton stones in Canada. So you've guys starting their own culture, which I just think is

00:41:22.200 wonderful. You know what I mean? Because in a hundred years time, that will be a historical

00:41:25.620 stone, you know, even in 50 years time, it will be in 20 years time. It will be, it's like, oh,

00:41:30.100 that's the stone that such and such a guy used to lift. And people will come from all over to lift

00:41:34.080 it. Then, you know, you're starting a culture, which I just think is commended, but it's absolutely

00:41:37.880 fantastic. And that's happening all over America. It's happening all over the world. People are starting

00:41:43.640 their own cultures now. And like I said, in the future, you know, it's like the old man planting an

00:41:48.020 acorn, he'll never see the tree, but they're planting the seeds of these stone lifting cultures 0.99

00:41:52.460 that they won't see, but they will have cultural value in the years to come. I just think it's

00:41:57.240 fantastic. Yeah. I think that's interesting that that's universal across cultures. There's something

00:42:01.720 about just picking up a heavy stone that tell it's so visceral. I think that's why people,

00:42:06.860 people are drawn to it. It's primal. You know what I mean? It's primal. It's you,

00:42:11.960 it's the bones of man versus the bones of the earth, you know, and you can feel it in your DNA

00:42:16.660 and it, you know what? It looks awesome. And people respond to it because like everybody knows

00:42:22.340 a stone is heavy and everybody knows, oh my God, look at that. I'd never be able to pick that up,

00:42:26.560 you know? And some of these stones I'm looking at, I started off thinking I'll never be able to pick

00:42:30.320 that up. And now I am, you know? So it's like, it's, it's an awesome, awesome thing. And like I

00:42:35.240 said, it, it, it's deeply rooted, I think in, in who we are as humans. You've been doing this for

00:42:40.680 two years. What has stone lifting taught you about being a man?

00:42:45.880 Well, that's a good question. It's taught me perseverance. It's taught me that if you want

00:42:52.560 something, you have to work for it. Sometimes it's not going to happen straight away. I mean,

00:42:56.620 some people could be very lucky and just be very strong naturally, but it taught me hard work and

00:43:01.740 discipline. And I'm out there in the nighttime and it gets dark at four o'clock in the evening here now.

00:43:07.640 And I'm out in the dark and the cold and the rain, and I'm lifting, training all winter. And then I'm

00:43:12.400 going off and I'm having my day in the sun then when I go lift these stones in the summertime.

00:43:15.960 And it's taught me that perseverance and willingness to put in hard work. I know that

00:43:20.980 it'll take time, but you'll get there eventually. And the same thing with kettlebell sport. It taught

00:43:26.020 me grit. It tempered the steel. You know, you become like a more distilled, more potent version of

00:43:31.320 yourself when you work towards something and then you get it. That feeling is just awesome.

00:43:35.500 Well, you mentioned that people can keep up with you on Instagram at Indiana stones,

00:43:40.540 which I love that Instagram handle. Is there anywhere else people can go to learn more about

00:43:44.720 your work? Check out the GQ article as well. Just type in GQ and my name, David Keown, and that'll

00:43:50.880 come up. And I've done a couple of cool podcasts as well, like the one we're doing now. And I'm just

00:43:56.500 so grateful. Thank you so much for having me on, Brett. So have a read and have a listen and see what

00:44:00.840 you think. And anybody wants to give me some support, I have a Patreon page because it's,

00:44:05.920 it's expensive to be driving around Ireland, but going to all these different places and putting

00:44:09.380 all the work in. So I'd appreciate it. And I'll follow and I'll like as well, if you could.

00:44:12.760 Fantastic. Well, David Keown, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure.

00:44:15.320 Thank you so much, Brett. I really appreciate it, man. Slán.

00:44:18.620 My guest there is David Keown. You can find more information about his work at his Instagram page.

00:44:22.480 It's Indiana Stones. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash stone lifting,

00:44:26.780 where you find links to resources, where you delve deeper into this topic.

00:44:30.840 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM podcast. Make sure to check out our website at

00:44:40.600 artofmanliness.com where you can find our podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles that

00:44:44.600 we've written over the years about pretty much anything you can think of. And if you haven't

00:44:47.840 done so already, I'd appreciate it if you take one minute to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or

00:44:50.920 Spotify. It helps out a lot. And if you've done that already, thank you. Please consider sharing the

00:44:55.080 show with a friend or family member who you think will get something out of it. As always, thank you for

00:44:58.860 the continued support. And until next time, it's Brett McKay reminding you to not listen to

00:45:02.140 the AOM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

The Art of Manliness - October 30, 2023

What Lifting Ancient Stones Can Teach You About Being a Man

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