The Art of Manliness - What Nietzsche Can Teach Us About Joyful Living in a Tech-Saturated World

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00:00:30.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition

00:00:32.300 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:34.320 Friedrich Nietzsche is famous for espousing a philosophy

00:00:36.460 that may be a help in wrestling with existential angst

00:00:38.840 and finding meaning in life.

00:00:40.320 My guests would say that Nietzsche's philosophy

00:00:41.720 may also be useful for figuring out something else,

00:00:44.560 how to have a healthy relationship with modern technology.

00:00:47.220 His name is Nate Anderson,

00:00:48.240 and he's the author of In Emergency, Break Glass,

00:00:50.440 what Nietzsche can teach us about joyful living

00:00:52.360 in a tech-saturated world.

00:00:54.080 Today on the show, Nate, who's a deputy editor

00:00:55.660 at the website Ars Technica,

00:00:57.160 shares how someone who grew up loving technology

00:00:59.040 and has spent his career writing about it,

00:01:00.740 reached a point where he felt disenchanted

00:01:02.320 with his effects on his life

00:01:03.480 and why he turned to the philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche

00:01:05.600 for insights on how to approach tech more fruitfully.

00:01:08.400 We then turned the way tech has made life too safe,

00:01:10.620 easy, and frictionless,

00:01:11.820 and how Nietzschean goals, asceticism,

00:01:13.920 and creative, self-overcoming exertion

00:01:15.800 can help us find deeper fulfillment.

00:01:17.340 Nate unpacks four Nietzsche-inspired guidelines

00:01:19.320 for information consumption,

00:01:20.600 the importance of the physical body

00:01:21.840 in thinking and feeling,

00:01:22.940 and our need to embrace greater Dionysian energy

00:01:25.040 and perhaps live a bit more dangerously.

00:01:27.700 After the show's over,

00:01:28.340 check out our show notes at aom.is slash breakglass.

00:01:43.280 Nate Anderson, welcome to the show.

00:01:45.540 Thanks for having me.

00:01:46.920 So you got a new book out called

00:01:48.180 In Emergency, Break Glass,

00:01:50.660 What Nietzsche Can Teach Us About Joyful Living

00:01:52.840 in a Tech-Saturated World.

00:01:55.020 And I was saying earlier before we got on,

00:01:56.980 you combined two of my favorite things,

00:01:59.140 the philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche

00:02:00.500 and thinking about how our digital technology

00:02:03.860 can be incorporated in our life in a meaningful way.

00:02:07.500 You start off this book talking about,

00:02:09.620 you reached a point in your life

00:02:11.240 where technology,

00:02:13.180 digital technology seemed to become disenchanted.

00:02:16.500 It felt like it was making your life small,

00:02:19.300 which is interesting

00:02:20.060 because you've made a career

00:02:21.040 writing about digital technology.

00:02:22.600 I mean, you're a deputy editor at Ars Technica,

00:02:25.420 which is a digital news tech site.

00:02:27.660 So walk us through the process.

00:02:28.740 How did a guy who has, you know,

00:02:31.140 spent his life working with digital technology,

00:02:33.800 writing about it, thinking about it,

00:02:35.520 kind of be like,

00:02:36.120 ah, I'm getting kind of tired of this.

00:02:38.480 Yeah.

00:02:38.980 I mean, the book comes from a place

00:02:40.440 of real love for technology.

00:02:42.420 When I was a kid,

00:02:43.600 I'm from the generation

00:02:44.640 where my first computers were magical,

00:02:47.880 but very difficult devices.

00:02:50.220 I mean, we're talking,

00:02:52.260 you had to type in programs out of magazines

00:02:54.560 if you wanted cool stuff to run.

00:02:56.860 So these devices were all about tinkering,

00:03:00.000 about coding,

00:03:01.160 so much learning and creativity required

00:03:03.740 even to get your computer to do something.

00:03:07.300 That for me was a really magical experience as a kid.

00:03:11.060 As I grew up,

00:03:12.580 as we got, you know,

00:03:13.860 more digital technology in our lives,

00:03:16.240 smartphones and the internet came in,

00:03:18.380 and I felt a real shift

00:03:20.020 that I think a lot of people have felt

00:03:22.080 to where technology becomes about consumption

00:03:26.460 and about interruption.

00:03:29.140 If you think in your life,

00:03:30.660 how much of your time with technology

00:03:32.340 might be taken up by Netflix and Spotify,

00:03:36.620 or how many times your train of thought

00:03:39.380 is interrupted during the day

00:03:40.800 by texts, emails, notifications,

00:03:44.040 pings on some kind of device,

00:03:45.960 that was a real shift

00:03:47.980 from what I experienced as a kid.

00:03:50.660 In the words of the techies,

00:03:53.240 things got frictionless.

00:03:55.140 That's been a hot description

00:03:57.220 of what people have been trying to do

00:03:58.840 for years now,

00:03:59.980 and they've largely succeeded.

00:04:02.840 You know, unlike in the old days

00:04:04.100 where everything was hard,

00:04:05.620 things now are engineered

00:04:07.020 to attract and addict.

00:04:09.380 And I think of it a bit like

00:04:11.420 the difference between

00:04:13.460 baking your own cookies

00:04:15.080 versus buying them from the store.

00:04:17.820 Cookies are never going to be super healthy

00:04:19.800 for you to consume in large quantities,

00:04:21.640 but if you've got to do the work

00:04:23.420 of making a batch of cookies,

00:04:26.100 making the dough,

00:04:27.420 baking them for 20 minutes,

00:04:29.340 you're not likely to stuff your face

00:04:31.040 with cookies all the time every day.

00:04:33.120 When you can just add them

00:04:34.400 to your shopping cart,

00:04:35.480 they're pre-made,

00:04:36.220 they're right there,

00:04:37.780 they're ready to go,

00:04:38.980 it's much easier

00:04:39.980 to engage in unhealthy behaviors.

00:04:42.440 I feel like the same way

00:04:43.720 about technology.

00:04:44.560 As it became frictionless,

00:04:46.720 as it became easier,

00:04:48.540 as companies really began

00:04:50.400 pushing consumption,

00:04:52.280 as the tech itself began

00:04:53.560 to interrupt our lives

00:04:55.100 in a bid to, you know,

00:04:56.840 lure our attention,

00:04:58.840 that it became somewhat unhealthy,

00:05:00.680 at least for me.

00:05:01.920 So I just found that

00:05:03.120 so much of my attention,

00:05:04.580 which is to say my life,

00:05:06.820 was going toward these devices,

00:05:08.500 toward these glass screens.

00:05:10.820 It was safe,

00:05:13.240 it was easy,

00:05:14.000 it was entertaining,

00:05:15.100 but I guess it all felt

00:05:17.200 somewhat motionless.

00:05:18.880 And given that life itself

00:05:20.840 is motion,

00:05:23.040 things began to feel

00:05:23.960 perhaps a bit lifeless.

00:05:25.820 Okay, so you're feeling lifeless,

00:05:27.460 thanks to the way

00:05:28.900 digital technology has directed us

00:05:30.600 towards more frictionless living.

00:05:32.040 How did the German philosopher,

00:05:35.200 Friedrich Nietzsche,

00:05:36.160 end up as your guide

00:05:37.280 on how to navigate

00:05:38.520 this frictionless,

00:05:40.200 tech-saturated world?

00:05:42.420 Yes, sort of an unusual choice there.

00:05:45.280 But my path in college,

00:05:47.200 I majored in philosophy

00:05:48.740 and had a real love

00:05:50.480 for that sort of thinking

00:05:51.960 and reading and learning.

00:05:54.700 And I'd really let that go

00:05:56.120 for quite a while.

00:05:57.860 But in my bid

00:05:59.980 to sort of remedy

00:06:01.100 some of these problems,

00:06:02.140 I turned back to some of that.

00:06:03.680 And Nietzsche was one of those figures

00:06:05.320 who, you know,

00:06:06.600 you always hear about.

00:06:07.900 You hear about him today.

00:06:09.300 He's the most memable

00:06:10.440 of the philosophers.

00:06:12.120 He's a great quote machine.

00:06:14.400 And so I went to his work

00:06:15.820 because I'd never studied it much.

00:06:17.620 And what I found there

00:06:19.880 was someone

00:06:21.260 who was not advocating

00:06:22.760 for life

00:06:23.300 that was either safe

00:06:24.500 or easy.

00:06:25.440 He was passionate

00:06:26.860 about finding

00:06:28.100 or creating meaning in life,

00:06:30.660 about striving

00:06:31.640 in and against reality,

00:06:33.460 not becoming detached

00:06:34.700 from the world

00:06:36.060 or experiencing

00:06:36.880 at a remove

00:06:37.740 through screens and lenses,

00:06:40.420 but about, you know,

00:06:41.960 struggling to do new

00:06:43.300 and creative things

00:06:44.220 in yourself

00:06:44.880 and in the world.

00:06:46.140 So his work hit me hard

00:06:48.600 in part because

00:06:49.460 it was so readable

00:06:50.520 compared to every other

00:06:52.020 German philosopher

00:06:52.900 I've ever read.

00:06:53.660 and I just read

00:06:55.640 all of it.

00:06:56.540 And it occurred to me

00:06:58.100 as I was working

00:06:58.840 through all this material

00:06:59.860 that Nietzsche

00:07:00.960 was a good pairing

00:07:02.780 with this tech world

00:07:04.380 where I've been working

00:07:05.200 and thinking in.

00:07:06.720 It's a world

00:07:07.260 where everyone says

00:07:07.980 they want to change

00:07:08.960 the world.

00:07:09.600 That's the common mantra

00:07:11.040 for everyone who,

00:07:12.000 you know,

00:07:12.680 founds a startup company

00:07:13.960 these days.

00:07:15.040 But I looked around

00:07:16.260 and saw that many of them

00:07:17.140 seemed more interested

00:07:18.040 in an IPO

00:07:19.300 or selling advertising.

00:07:21.900 This wasn't exactly

00:07:23.480 the change the world

00:07:24.660 creative struggle

00:07:25.680 that I was looking for

00:07:27.660 and that Nietzsche

00:07:28.260 talked about.

00:07:29.680 So I thought

00:07:30.700 they're interesting

00:07:31.220 to put Nietzsche's voice

00:07:32.860 into this conversation

00:07:35.160 with the tech world.

00:07:36.480 But I guess

00:07:37.020 I do want to be clear

00:07:38.080 that, you know,

00:07:38.740 I don't take Nietzsche

00:07:39.760 as my guide.

00:07:41.800 I think anybody

00:07:42.320 who knows enough

00:07:43.220 about Nietzsche

00:07:43.760 knows that he had

00:07:44.540 some pretty

00:07:45.040 controversial opinions

00:07:46.640 and ways

00:07:48.220 of expressing himself

00:07:49.180 that in some cases

00:07:50.620 are unhelpful.

00:07:52.160 And I look at him

00:07:53.460 more as someone

00:07:54.140 to think with

00:07:55.760 rather than,

00:07:57.120 you know,

00:07:57.680 someone to follow

00:07:58.620 or to become

00:07:59.700 a disciple of.

00:08:01.400 Well, and he would actually

00:08:02.100 agree with you

00:08:03.620 on that approach.

00:08:04.300 He actually never

00:08:05.060 wanted disciples.

00:08:06.300 He wanted fellow

00:08:07.160 thinkers with him.

00:08:09.440 He did.

00:08:10.180 Right, right.

00:08:10.860 I've got a great quote

00:08:12.280 here from him

00:08:12.900 that was in his

00:08:13.800 autobiography.

00:08:15.240 He says,

00:08:15.900 I'm no man,

00:08:17.160 I'm dynamite.

00:08:18.140 I want no believers. 0.97

00:08:20.560 I never speak

00:08:21.420 to the masses.

00:08:22.560 I have a terrible fear

00:08:23.800 that one day

00:08:24.580 I will be pronounced holy.

00:08:26.400 I do not want

00:08:27.300 to be a holy man.

00:08:29.100 And I think

00:08:29.880 that's right.

00:08:30.980 And he really

00:08:32.160 tells people

00:08:33.400 to take

00:08:34.500 what he's saying

00:08:35.220 but to apply it

00:08:36.300 to their own lives

00:08:37.040 in their own ways

00:08:37.940 and not to make him

00:08:39.000 their guru.

00:08:40.040 So let's talk about

00:08:40.860 Nietzsche's idea

00:08:42.720 of the good life.

00:08:43.380 I think you hit on it

00:08:44.020 a little bit.

00:08:45.040 The idea of the good life

00:08:45.880 that he had was

00:08:46.660 striving,

00:08:48.640 having a goal,

00:08:49.660 living with passion,

00:08:51.160 not a life of ease,

00:08:52.880 right?

00:08:53.080 He believed in

00:08:53.620 the kind of strenuous life.

00:08:55.020 Things should be hard.

00:08:55.800 That's where you find meaning.

00:08:57.620 How does

00:08:58.340 Nietzsche's idea

00:08:59.540 of a flourishing life

00:09:01.120 differ

00:09:02.040 from the flourishing life

00:09:03.460 that our digital

00:09:04.220 technology offers?

00:09:07.120 Right.

00:09:07.600 So I think you put

00:09:08.220 your finger on it

00:09:09.040 that it's about

00:09:10.180 struggle

00:09:11.220 and creative exertion.

00:09:13.160 I don't think

00:09:13.960 that has to mean

00:09:15.440 for Nietzsche

00:09:15.920 that life is miserable

00:09:17.260 or that we're

00:09:19.160 always struggling

00:09:19.980 in the sense

00:09:20.560 of being at war

00:09:21.920 but we're striving

00:09:23.420 to do creative

00:09:24.480 and interesting things

00:09:25.500 in ourselves

00:09:26.340 and in the worlds

00:09:27.600 around us

00:09:28.020 to overcome

00:09:28.540 our human limitations

00:09:29.720 and press forward.

00:09:31.280 That's what he's

00:09:31.920 talking about.

00:09:33.100 He refers to this

00:09:34.360 as being the

00:09:35.180 ubermensch,

00:09:36.000 the over person,

00:09:37.540 the person who

00:09:38.080 kind of transcends

00:09:39.300 our humanity

00:09:39.960 or tries to push

00:09:40.900 the boundaries

00:09:41.440 of it forward.

00:09:42.500 That's what he respected

00:09:43.740 in life.

00:09:44.880 That's what he

00:09:45.600 tried to do

00:09:47.140 and what he said

00:09:48.920 in contrast

00:09:49.540 was that we just

00:09:50.980 don't want a life

00:09:52.080 where the goal

00:09:52.980 is comfort,

00:09:54.080 ease,

00:09:54.760 and safety

00:09:55.460 and I think some of this

00:09:56.740 comes out of his own

00:09:57.580 personal biography.

00:09:58.840 He was very ill

00:10:00.460 all of his life.

00:10:02.400 He gave up

00:10:03.260 his tenured

00:10:04.280 professorship

00:10:05.020 as a fairly young man

00:10:06.480 and wandered around

00:10:07.560 Europe

00:10:07.880 with very little money

00:10:08.940 until he went insane.

00:10:11.200 So he did not have

00:10:12.580 a comfortable,

00:10:13.600 easy,

00:10:14.380 or safe life

00:10:15.340 and I think he looked

00:10:16.580 at people who did

00:10:17.620 and who seemed

00:10:18.440 to value only that

00:10:20.020 and he looked

00:10:21.480 at himself

00:10:22.040 and he said

00:10:23.520 this is not an option

00:10:24.920 for me

00:10:25.660 and if this is what

00:10:26.740 life is about

00:10:27.500 I've already lost

00:10:28.960 and so he set about

00:10:30.620 looking for different

00:10:31.520 ways to think about it.

00:10:33.420 He calls this

00:10:34.100 in one place

00:10:34.860 living that way

00:10:36.040 to try to be

00:10:36.660 comfortable,

00:10:37.360 safe,

00:10:37.680 and easy.

00:10:38.100 He calls living

00:10:38.920 the life

00:10:39.380 of the last man

00:10:40.660 not really

00:10:41.700 because it ends

00:10:42.480 the human race

00:10:43.420 in a physical sense

00:10:45.300 because ease,

00:10:46.600 safety,

00:10:46.900 and comfort

00:10:47.400 tend to keep life

00:10:49.000 going because

00:10:49.640 you're safe

00:10:50.480 but because

00:10:51.900 in a sort of

00:10:52.560 spiritual,

00:10:53.780 moral sense

00:10:54.740 it's kind of

00:10:55.860 the end

00:10:56.320 of human

00:10:56.940 striving,

00:10:58.320 effort,

00:10:58.940 and ambition

00:10:59.600 that we've given up

00:11:00.640 on trying to be

00:11:01.340 more than we could be.

00:11:04.000 So that's

00:11:05.020 what Nietzsche calls

00:11:06.220 for is the good life

00:11:07.080 is this goal

00:11:07.980 of struggling

00:11:08.700 forward

00:11:09.280 and he has

00:11:10.280 this amazing quote

00:11:11.280 that's what he

00:11:12.940 means by that.

00:11:13.660 So he says,

00:11:14.560 the secret for

00:11:15.420 harvesting from existence

00:11:16.860 the greatest fruitfulness

00:11:18.240 and the greatest

00:11:19.320 enjoyment

00:11:19.880 is to live

00:11:21.040 dangerously.

00:11:22.860 Build your cities

00:11:23.700 on the slopes

00:11:24.400 of Vesuvius.

00:11:25.760 Send your ships

00:11:26.580 into uncharted seas.

00:11:28.380 Live at war 0.92

00:11:29.320 with your peers

00:11:30.160 and yourselves. 0.95

00:11:31.720 Be robbers 0.70

00:11:32.500 and conquerors

00:11:33.460 as long as

00:11:34.080 you cannot be

00:11:34.620 rulers and possessors

00:11:35.940 you seekers

00:11:36.860 of knowledge.

00:11:38.420 So,

00:11:39.160 you know,

00:11:39.580 it's important

00:11:40.140 to note

00:11:40.560 that he is

00:11:41.100 talking to

00:11:41.600 seekers of knowledge.

00:11:42.440 He is not

00:11:42.900 calling for people 1.00

00:11:43.800 to be jerks 1.00

00:11:44.820 or warmongers 1.00

00:11:46.460 but this is

00:11:48.040 the sort of

00:11:48.560 vision of life

00:11:49.740 that he has

00:11:50.760 as the good life.

00:11:52.320 And I love,

00:11:52.700 I think what our

00:11:53.700 digital technology

00:11:54.380 does with this

00:11:55.000 it encourages

00:11:55.700 this frictionless

00:11:56.880 easy consumption.

00:11:59.300 I think

00:11:59.700 the type of person

00:12:01.220 that it creates

00:12:01.880 like that last man

00:12:03.480 that Nietzsche describes

00:12:04.500 it just perfectly

00:12:05.160 encapsulates that

00:12:06.040 there's a Nietzsche

00:12:07.000 scholar

00:12:07.800 Robert Solomon

00:12:08.760 who described

00:12:10.060 the last man

00:12:10.980 as the ultimate

00:12:11.700 couch potato.

00:12:13.460 And I love the quote

00:12:14.280 about, you know,

00:12:15.020 the last man

00:12:15.680 and their ethos

00:12:16.240 towards why.

00:12:16.720 This is from Nietzsche.

00:12:17.920 This is from

00:12:18.700 Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

00:12:20.920 It says,

00:12:21.960 we discovered happiness

00:12:23.140 say the last man

00:12:24.660 and blink.

00:12:26.060 So,

00:12:26.260 I just love that idea

00:12:26.780 like they just blink.

00:12:27.960 You know,

00:12:28.060 it's just sort of like

00:12:28.500 they're not really thinking

00:12:29.300 they're just kind of

00:12:30.120 just their existing

00:12:31.020 they think they've got

00:12:32.440 happiness in their comfort

00:12:33.660 but actually they don't.

00:12:36.440 Yeah,

00:12:36.960 and I think

00:12:37.920 if you just

00:12:38.360 if you're talking

00:12:38.960 about digital technology

00:12:40.180 and if you just look

00:12:41.640 at sort of a physical

00:12:42.580 sense of what it

00:12:44.000 can do to us

00:12:45.420 there are lots of things

00:12:46.660 it can do

00:12:47.320 and does do

00:12:48.040 in people's lives

00:12:48.840 but at least in my life

00:12:49.960 I looked around

00:12:51.020 and found that

00:12:51.600 it was leading me

00:12:52.380 to spend a lot of time

00:12:53.840 sitting on the couch

00:12:55.340 or sitting on a chair

00:12:56.900 or looking at a screen,

00:12:59.420 right?

00:12:59.660 and that seemed

00:13:00.620 a very limited range

00:13:02.300 of things

00:13:03.120 to do

00:13:03.940 with my life

00:13:04.840 with my time

00:13:05.620 with my attention

00:13:06.620 and yet so much of it

00:13:08.320 was going into those postures

00:13:10.260 and that was kind of

00:13:12.100 for me a sign

00:13:13.040 you know

00:13:13.860 that what Nietzsche is saying

00:13:15.160 about being the ultimate

00:13:16.600 couch potato

00:13:17.340 like this works

00:13:18.360 you can live

00:13:20.020 you can enjoy yourself

00:13:22.060 it's fairly undemanding

00:13:23.660 but there's a hollowness to it

00:13:26.740 and it just felt like

00:13:28.540 the digital technology

00:13:29.960 I was immersed in

00:13:31.180 at least I was not using it

00:13:32.740 in ways that were helping me

00:13:34.120 serve life

00:13:35.260 grow

00:13:36.160 move forward

00:13:37.340 and so Nietzsche helped me

00:13:39.060 find new ways

00:13:40.180 of thinking about

00:13:40.880 what I would want

00:13:42.300 from my technology

00:13:43.260 so Nietzsche

00:13:44.740 he's an existentialist

00:13:46.120 and existentialists

00:13:46.920 are all about

00:13:47.340 finding meaning in life

00:13:49.000 and the problem

00:13:50.120 that Nietzsche was grappling with

00:13:51.400 is he saw

00:13:52.900 and he described

00:13:53.740 that in modern life

00:13:55.080 we killed meaning

00:13:56.840 that was given to us

00:13:58.180 by God

00:13:58.760 right

00:13:59.000 so people

00:13:59.520 before modernity

00:14:01.180 ordered their life

00:14:02.140 around this idea

00:14:03.140 that there is God

00:14:03.920 and God provided meaning

00:14:05.000 Nietzsche said

00:14:05.880 in the 19th century

00:14:06.640 we killed God

00:14:07.700 with science 0.77

00:14:08.480 and whatever

00:14:08.840 and he said

00:14:09.200 this is terrible

00:14:09.920 actually that whole thing

00:14:11.480 you know

00:14:11.680 God is dead

00:14:12.280 like Nietzsche thought

00:14:12.980 that was actually

00:14:13.820 a bad thing

00:14:14.480 because it means

00:14:15.560 people no longer

00:14:16.200 have a meaning in life

00:14:17.120 and so he said

00:14:18.080 okay

00:14:18.420 if we can't look to religion

00:14:20.240 to provide us meaning

00:14:21.080 we have to create

00:14:22.100 our own meaning

00:14:22.720 so Nietzsche

00:14:23.720 is all about goals

00:14:24.660 but it was a certain

00:14:25.860 type of goal

00:14:26.720 that Nietzsche

00:14:28.120 had in mind

00:14:28.940 for life

00:14:29.700 what made a goal

00:14:31.200 Nietzschean

00:14:31.860 so like you said

00:14:34.020 it's all about

00:14:35.200 meaning

00:14:36.060 and there's some people

00:14:37.660 who think of Nietzsche

00:14:38.920 and brand him

00:14:40.200 with the name

00:14:40.820 of a nihilist

00:14:41.960 someone who just wants

00:14:42.840 to tear everything down

00:14:44.280 there's no point

00:14:45.300 to existence

00:14:46.000 I think that's a radical

00:14:47.800 misreading of Nietzsche

00:14:49.380 his entire existence

00:14:51.000 was about trying

00:14:52.260 to find meaning

00:14:53.100 in a world

00:14:53.940 where he felt

00:14:54.480 like it had collapsed

00:14:55.520 and that's what

00:14:56.420 he struggled for

00:14:57.180 his entire life

00:14:58.260 so like you said

00:14:59.840 for him

00:15:00.540 he found it

00:15:02.180 in self-created goals

00:15:04.700 he has a great quote

00:15:06.280 where he says

00:15:06.820 if we possess

00:15:08.180 our why of life

00:15:09.920 we can put up

00:15:11.200 with almost

00:15:12.020 any how

00:15:13.200 and I think

00:15:14.660 you can see that

00:15:15.440 in the life

00:15:16.060 of every sort of

00:15:17.220 revolutionary

00:15:18.300 who's ever lived

00:15:19.460 you can see it

00:15:20.360 in many artists

00:15:21.120 you can see it

00:15:21.820 in all sorts of people

00:15:23.020 including religious people

00:15:24.340 the goal

00:15:26.400 and happiness

00:15:28.180 is not always attained

00:15:29.600 by being safe

00:15:31.260 easy and comfortable

00:15:32.080 on the couch

00:15:32.860 it's often gained

00:15:34.400 through struggle

00:15:36.240 through difficulty

00:15:37.280 through living in

00:15:38.560 reduced physical circumstances

00:15:40.420 but with a goal

00:15:41.840 of doing something

00:15:43.120 that you love

00:15:43.940 or that you think

00:15:44.700 will really change

00:15:45.400 the world

00:15:45.940 so Nietzsche's

00:15:47.340 really in that tradition

00:15:48.320 and when he says

00:15:50.380 we need a why

00:15:52.180 of life

00:15:52.840 these kind of goals

00:15:53.960 he's talking about

00:15:54.900 are the sorts of things

00:15:55.880 we've been discussing

00:15:56.760 he sees them as

00:15:58.860 creative

00:16:00.400 self-overcoming goals

00:16:02.660 that move us forward

00:16:03.900 and what do we mean

00:16:05.540 by self-overcoming

00:16:06.660 I mean if you think of

00:16:07.660 think of an artist

00:16:08.880 who paints a style

00:16:10.760 of picture

00:16:11.220 and it becomes

00:16:11.640 very popular

00:16:12.460 but you know

00:16:14.100 most good artists

00:16:15.480 are not content

00:16:16.740 with doing that

00:16:17.400 their entire career

00:16:18.340 the people who do stop

00:16:20.280 and just keep churning out

00:16:22.020 this thing that's popular

00:16:23.100 and they keep selling

00:16:24.040 over and over

00:16:25.120 with very little variation

00:16:26.320 you know

00:16:27.140 we don't always

00:16:27.840 look kindly

00:16:28.820 on that trajectory

00:16:29.700 once they're gone

00:16:31.060 we say maybe

00:16:31.560 they didn't really have

00:16:32.540 the courage

00:16:33.620 or the interest

00:16:34.280 in kind of

00:16:34.760 moving beyond that

00:16:36.160 but great artists

00:16:37.180 are always changing

00:16:38.320 and evolving

00:16:39.420 and growing

00:16:40.340 and trying to do

00:16:41.020 something new

00:16:41.620 they haven't done before

00:16:42.620 that's what Nietzsche's

00:16:43.860 talking about

00:16:44.680 applying that attitude

00:16:46.500 toward our own lives

00:16:48.400 and you know

00:16:49.560 it does not mean

00:16:50.520 that everyone's trying

00:16:51.560 to be a revolutionary

00:16:52.400 who changes the world

00:16:53.680 in some kind of

00:16:54.440 massive big picture

00:16:55.940 historical sense

00:16:57.060 Nietzsche himself

00:16:58.080 didn't try to do

00:16:58.880 anything like that

00:16:59.800 but he sought the truth

00:17:02.160 he sought new ways

00:17:03.700 of writing and thinking

00:17:04.700 and he was always

00:17:06.840 pushing beyond

00:17:07.760 in style

00:17:08.480 in content

00:17:09.220 from what he had done before

00:17:10.520 I think that's the sort of thing

00:17:12.340 he's calling people to

00:17:13.620 in your own domain

00:17:14.680 in your own area of life

00:17:16.100 don't settle

00:17:17.300 for doing the same thing

00:17:19.420 over and over

00:17:20.180 for coming home

00:17:21.140 at the end of a work day

00:17:22.200 where you're working

00:17:22.720 for somebody else

00:17:23.640 and you're just reduced

00:17:26.000 to kind of tiredness

00:17:27.220 and you have no

00:17:29.040 no bigger picture

00:17:30.640 things that you struggle for

00:17:32.020 there's nothing left

00:17:33.080 that you create

00:17:33.960 or that you strive for

00:17:35.320 so that's what he's

00:17:36.320 calling people to

00:17:37.140 and if people can find

00:17:38.540 that for themselves

00:17:39.380 the thing that really animates

00:17:40.740 and that's the why

00:17:41.640 of their life

00:17:42.300 and then they can put up

00:17:43.580 with all sorts of different

00:17:44.960 hows in terms of

00:17:46.460 how they live

00:17:47.440 and the circumstances

00:17:48.340 in which they live

00:17:49.200 do you think our

00:17:50.440 frictionless digital world

00:17:52.420 offers substitutes

00:17:53.760 for Nietzschean goals

00:17:55.180 that kind of distract us

00:17:56.520 from actually going after

00:17:57.660 those type of goals

00:17:58.400 I think it can

00:18:00.180 but I'm not a total pessimist

00:18:02.540 I think technology

00:18:03.800 can serve

00:18:04.840 these kinds of creative goals

00:18:06.480 as a writer myself

00:18:08.000 you know

00:18:08.520 I found that digital technology

00:18:10.200 has made

00:18:11.100 you know

00:18:11.960 been hugely productive

00:18:12.900 for me in terms of writing

00:18:14.580 and I may need to spend

00:18:16.760 more time

00:18:17.920 in front of a screen

00:18:19.380 in order to do

00:18:20.700 kind of creative

00:18:21.660 and interesting things

00:18:22.720 that I want to do

00:18:24.220 but I think it is too easy

00:18:27.120 because of the engineering

00:18:28.280 that goes into these things

00:18:29.660 that are so designed

00:18:31.500 to capture our attention

00:18:33.000 and usually then

00:18:34.200 to monetize it

00:18:35.320 that there is often

00:18:36.900 a danger

00:18:37.500 that digital technology

00:18:39.420 today

00:18:40.000 will try and do that

00:18:41.800 to your life

00:18:42.580 and that you'll end up

00:18:43.700 giving it

00:18:44.440 more of your attention

00:18:45.980 than it deserves

00:18:46.880 so it doesn't have

00:18:48.640 to be that way

00:18:49.400 I mean

00:18:49.840 nobody's making you

00:18:51.060 sign up for Facebook

00:18:52.940 or play addictive

00:18:54.680 mobile games

00:18:55.780 or leave all your

00:18:57.120 notifications on

00:18:58.180 so you're constantly

00:18:58.980 being pinged

00:18:59.820 by text message

00:19:00.760 alarms

00:19:01.680 we've collaborated

00:19:04.020 in allowing that

00:19:05.020 to happen

00:19:05.520 the technology itself

00:19:07.280 can go in lots

00:19:08.640 of different ways

00:19:09.480 as long as we're

00:19:10.400 mindful about it

00:19:11.280 and sort of

00:19:11.600 take charge of it

00:19:12.700 instead of letting it

00:19:13.740 take charge of us

00:19:14.900 we're going to take a quick

00:19:16.460 break for your word

00:19:17.100 from our sponsors

00:19:17.720 and now back

00:19:20.440 to the show

00:19:21.460 so one thing

00:19:22.800 you talk about

00:19:23.380 in the book

00:19:23.860 is that figuring out

00:19:24.800 what your

00:19:25.380 Nietzschean goals

00:19:26.780 are going to be

00:19:27.120 these existential goals

00:19:28.260 that are going to give you

00:19:28.820 meaning in life

00:19:29.780 it requires you

00:19:31.640 to listen to your

00:19:33.360 inner voice

00:19:33.920 but as you make the case

00:19:35.880 the flood of information

00:19:36.900 that we encounter

00:19:37.560 from our digital devices

00:19:39.200 can drown out

00:19:40.820 that inner voice

00:19:41.760 Nietzsche

00:19:42.820 you look to Nietzsche

00:19:43.480 for this

00:19:43.780 he might have some ideas

00:19:44.720 Nietzsche wasn't a fan

00:19:46.320 of asceticism

00:19:47.220 he thought that was

00:19:48.000 too extreme

00:19:49.280 he didn't like people

00:19:50.700 who just like fasted

00:19:51.660 and wore sackcloths

00:19:52.680 he thought that was

00:19:53.880 life negating

00:19:54.920 they were denying life

00:19:56.500 but you argue

00:19:57.500 there's a type of

00:19:58.280 Nietzschean asceticism

00:19:59.380 that can be useful

00:20:01.040 in managing

00:20:01.800 information overload

00:20:02.840 what does that look like?

00:20:04.740 Right

00:20:04.960 so he's against

00:20:06.020 these sort of

00:20:06.720 ascetic attitudes

00:20:07.860 when he feels like

00:20:10.140 they're saying

00:20:11.320 no to life

00:20:12.500 when you're actually

00:20:13.260 trying to

00:20:14.160 limit yourself

00:20:15.480 in the world

00:20:15.980 you're trying to

00:20:16.500 limit your intake

00:20:17.360 of food

00:20:18.000 etc

00:20:19.060 but just for the purpose

00:20:20.720 of saying that

00:20:21.500 life itself is bad

00:20:23.280 and I want to come

00:20:24.020 as close to death

00:20:25.180 as I can

00:20:26.360 if that's the attitude

00:20:27.880 Nietzsche wants

00:20:28.740 nothing to do

00:20:29.380 with it

00:20:29.720 but there's another

00:20:30.880 kind of restriction

00:20:31.980 and asceticism

00:20:33.500 that he's forced

00:20:34.840 to admit is actually

00:20:35.820 a very good thing

00:20:36.900 and in fact

00:20:37.400 is required to live

00:20:39.360 it's the sort of

00:20:40.420 restriction

00:20:41.000 the limits

00:20:42.140 the asceticism

00:20:43.520 that actually

00:20:44.380 serves life

00:20:45.380 and says yes

00:20:46.440 to life

00:20:47.280 so

00:20:48.380 he's got a great

00:20:49.620 quote where he says

00:20:50.520 noise murders

00:20:52.080 thought

00:20:52.660 and

00:20:53.660 I found that

00:20:55.420 to be true

00:20:55.900 in my life

00:20:56.540 and so

00:20:57.580 he advocates

00:20:59.060 for learning

00:20:59.800 to say no

00:21:00.760 to many things

00:21:01.800 including

00:21:02.280 information

00:21:03.540 you know

00:21:04.260 as somebody

00:21:04.860 who was himself

00:21:05.680 a professor

00:21:06.420 he felt

00:21:07.680 the information

00:21:08.320 overload

00:21:08.800 that we experience

00:21:09.740 now

00:21:10.220 in a similar way

00:21:11.740 he talks about

00:21:12.460 how overwhelmed

00:21:13.220 he felt

00:21:13.900 by history

00:21:15.020 by books

00:21:15.760 by libraries

00:21:16.900 by all that was

00:21:17.660 before him

00:21:18.220 and this was

00:21:19.000 130

00:21:20.100 140 years ago

00:21:21.220 so I think

00:21:22.540 things have only

00:21:23.060 gotten worse

00:21:23.620 for us

00:21:24.220 and what he saw

00:21:25.480 was only

00:21:26.160 an infinite

00:21:27.000 lifespan

00:21:27.700 could truly

00:21:28.860 say yes

00:21:29.760 to everything

00:21:30.520 that's out there

00:21:31.220 could embrace

00:21:32.180 every book

00:21:32.980 could watch

00:21:33.620 every movie

00:21:34.360 on Netflix

00:21:34.940 you know

00:21:35.780 could read

00:21:36.380 every text message

00:21:37.500 that comes in

00:21:38.300 we don't have

00:21:39.620 an infinite

00:21:39.980 lifespan

00:21:40.380 so

00:21:41.320 we can say

00:21:42.600 a no

00:21:43.280 we can create

00:21:44.340 a boundary line

00:21:45.580 in our existence

00:21:46.460 to rule things

00:21:47.460 out

00:21:47.880 in order to say

00:21:49.460 yes

00:21:49.920 to life

00:21:50.520 live more fully

00:21:51.560 in order not

00:21:52.520 to be overwhelmed

00:21:53.500 by this information

00:21:54.580 that just piles up

00:21:56.240 all around us

00:21:57.280 so Nietzsche

00:21:58.340 talks about this

00:21:59.080 in terms of

00:22:00.000 nutrition

00:22:00.940 as a metaphor

00:22:01.620 he comes back to

00:22:02.600 and in the book

00:22:03.140 I call this

00:22:03.780 a slow information

00:22:05.180 diet

00:22:05.720 so he talks

00:22:07.420 about our need

00:22:08.040 to do four things

00:22:10.200 first

00:22:11.100 slow down

00:22:12.320 our acquisition

00:22:13.400 of information

00:22:14.280 read more slowly

00:22:16.580 watch more carefully

00:22:18.360 listen

00:22:19.040 more carefully

00:22:20.640 in order to

00:22:21.660 pay attention

00:22:22.540 to what's being

00:22:23.840 said

00:22:24.640 or played

00:22:25.300 or performed

00:22:26.060 and the second

00:22:26.980 thing is to

00:22:27.740 really ruminate

00:22:29.020 on information

00:22:29.900 re-read

00:22:31.060 re-watch

00:22:31.940 re-listen

00:22:32.700 let things

00:22:33.260 sink in

00:22:34.400 digest them

00:22:35.320 focus on them

00:22:36.220 in order to

00:22:37.420 turn things

00:22:38.300 into wisdom

00:22:39.940 within our minds

00:22:41.180 and our bodies

00:22:42.000 always moving on

00:22:43.340 to something novel

00:22:44.200 may prevent that

00:22:45.600 the third thing

00:22:47.100 is stop

00:22:48.680 information intake

00:22:49.820 completely

00:22:50.540 at certain times

00:22:52.080 in order to

00:22:52.700 create space

00:22:53.920 for our own

00:22:54.920 thoughts

00:22:55.540 to digest

00:22:56.980 this kind of

00:22:57.680 material

00:22:58.120 to think about

00:22:59.000 our own way

00:22:59.580 forward

00:23:00.020 and the fourth

00:23:01.580 thing is

00:23:02.240 maybe we actually

00:23:03.900 need to forget

00:23:04.860 some information

00:23:05.900 so that it

00:23:06.920 doesn't build up

00:23:07.960 around us

00:23:08.580 like garbage 0.99

00:23:09.300 like so that we 0.60

00:23:10.560 can clear a

00:23:11.460 mental path

00:23:12.460 through these

00:23:13.560 things that

00:23:14.160 don't serve

00:23:14.940 us in life

00:23:15.640 this is not

00:23:17.040 the promise

00:23:18.240 I think it's

00:23:19.240 fair to say

00:23:19.840 of digital

00:23:20.640 technology

00:23:21.300 which has

00:23:21.760 basically become

00:23:22.720 archive everything

00:23:24.220 you know

00:23:25.040 keep all

00:23:25.660 information

00:23:26.220 never forget

00:23:27.060 make it easily

00:23:27.860 accessible to

00:23:28.660 anyone at

00:23:29.340 any time

00:23:29.860 anywhere

00:23:30.480 and Nietzsche

00:23:31.760 might say

00:23:32.380 well that's

00:23:33.220 great but at

00:23:33.860 least we as

00:23:34.560 humans have

00:23:35.740 to draw real

00:23:36.680 boundaries

00:23:37.260 around how

00:23:38.860 much of that

00:23:39.620 we're going to

00:23:40.780 spend our

00:23:41.480 lives working

00:23:42.440 with consuming

00:23:43.940 listening to

00:23:45.060 because if we

00:23:45.900 don't it

00:23:46.900 creates anxiety

00:23:48.580 it prevents us

00:23:49.620 from thinking

00:23:50.380 it prevents us

00:23:51.180 from hearing

00:23:51.540 our own voice

00:23:52.760 and so digital

00:23:54.400 technology has got

00:23:55.280 a real role to

00:23:56.060 play in that

00:23:56.640 and we need to

00:23:57.640 manage information

00:23:58.500 just like we do

00:23:59.280 food too much

00:24:00.360 and too little

00:24:01.260 might both kill

00:24:02.100 us 1.00

00:24:02.440 well yeah

00:24:03.220 it's an upstream

00:24:04.180 battle because

00:24:05.120 digital technology

00:24:05.940 the way the

00:24:07.120 you know media

00:24:08.040 digital media is

00:24:09.140 organized is that

00:24:09.940 it encourages fast

00:24:11.040 reading and

00:24:12.140 skimming in fact

00:24:12.860 you're seeing

00:24:13.360 this trend

00:24:14.160 I think Axios

00:24:15.560 the website

00:24:16.460 they're they're

00:24:17.540 sort of

00:24:17.780 standardizing this

00:24:18.600 like very

00:24:19.260 skimmable reading

00:24:20.560 format now

00:24:21.200 where it's just

00:24:21.560 like bullet

00:24:21.960 points and

00:24:23.140 like you're

00:24:23.460 seeing other

00:24:23.840 websites adopt

00:24:24.880 this this

00:24:25.540 format you see

00:24:27.020 the digital

00:24:27.500 technology the

00:24:28.200 algorithms put a

00:24:29.000 premium on

00:24:29.500 novelty you only

00:24:30.660 see new stuff

00:24:31.520 typically you

00:24:32.580 never see stuff

00:24:33.420 you know gets

00:24:34.060 percolated from

00:24:34.860 the archives from

00:24:35.620 10 years ago

00:24:36.400 so you have to

00:24:37.520 actually intentionally

00:24:38.320 decide you know

00:24:39.060 what I am going

00:24:40.280 to read slowly

00:24:41.620 I'm not going

00:24:42.120 to skim I'm

00:24:43.340 going to get

00:24:44.580 not just focus

00:24:45.340 on the new

00:24:45.760 stuff but really

00:24:46.640 focus on the

00:24:47.420 stuff that's old

00:24:48.760 that's stood the

00:24:49.740 test of time

00:24:50.400 like you have to

00:24:51.200 decide I'm going

00:24:51.740 to be intentional

00:24:52.200 about that

00:24:52.780 yeah intentionality

00:24:54.340 is at the core

00:24:55.520 of all this

00:24:56.220 because if you're

00:24:57.240 not intentional

00:24:58.140 the people who

00:24:59.420 create all these

00:25:00.240 digital systems

00:25:01.160 they were

00:25:02.220 intentional and

00:25:03.420 they have a goal

00:25:04.280 and it's to

00:25:05.040 capture your

00:25:05.560 attention usually

00:25:06.560 through novelty

00:25:08.100 outrage you

00:25:09.620 know things

00:25:09.940 that sort of

00:25:10.400 excite interest

00:25:11.380 and attention

00:25:11.980 that may not

00:25:13.500 you know a

00:25:14.180 steady diet of

00:25:15.160 that where that's

00:25:15.780 mostly what you

00:25:16.420 consume I think

00:25:17.940 it's pretty clear

00:25:18.640 by now that that

00:25:19.480 is not good for

00:25:20.240 us so without

00:25:22.140 intentionality you

00:25:23.000 give yourself over

00:25:23.920 to that so one

00:25:25.060 thing like a takeaway

00:25:25.740 from that read

00:25:26.520 slowly go ahead and

00:25:27.560 read those long

00:25:28.340 form articles take

00:25:29.380 your time with a

00:25:29.880 read an entire

00:25:30.540 book and then I

00:25:31.860 like the idea that

00:25:32.380 Nietzsche had like

00:25:32.960 have a library like

00:25:34.580 that's like four or

00:25:35.300 five books think

00:25:36.460 about like if I if

00:25:37.580 there was the

00:25:38.280 apocalypse and I

00:25:39.440 can only keep four

00:25:40.240 books with me what

00:25:41.320 would those four

00:25:41.780 books be and then

00:25:42.940 just read those over

00:25:44.160 and over again

00:25:44.720 throughout your life

00:25:45.420 and just chew on

00:25:46.240 it like I like how

00:25:47.280 you ruminate like

00:25:48.100 you're like a cow 0.98

00:25:49.120 chewing on its cut 0.99

00:25:49.940 over and over again

00:25:50.680 right so this is

00:25:52.360 sort of the desert

00:25:53.020 island books scenario

00:25:54.460 and yeah Nietzsche

00:25:55.780 loved this he said

00:25:56.740 at one point he only

00:25:57.640 had eight authors

00:25:58.500 that he read over

00:26:00.640 and over again

00:26:01.380 which you know was

00:26:02.340 clearly not true but

00:26:03.780 in his hyperbolic

00:26:04.900 fashion indicates what

00:26:06.780 he's getting at that

00:26:07.820 if there are books

00:26:09.260 or authors or

00:26:10.800 albums or movies

00:26:13.020 that have been

00:26:14.380 profoundly meaningful

00:26:15.840 to you and yet

00:26:17.400 you don't really go

00:26:18.660 back to them as much

00:26:19.620 as you'd really like

00:26:20.520 to because you're

00:26:21.060 always you know in

00:26:22.340 search of the new

00:26:23.240 I think maybe

00:26:24.240 something's being lost

00:26:25.260 there and that maybe

00:26:25.880 we'd gain more by

00:26:27.820 spending more time

00:26:29.100 returning to the

00:26:29.940 things that really

00:26:30.660 have this kind of

00:26:31.380 shaping quality on

00:26:33.160 our lives and

00:26:34.580 really incorporating

00:26:35.800 them into the way

00:26:36.620 we think and see

00:26:38.140 the world and

00:26:39.120 talk and so that's

00:26:41.000 what Nietzsche's

00:26:41.440 talking about there

00:26:42.340 let's talk about

00:26:43.900 Nietzsche's idea of

00:26:46.280 the role of the

00:26:47.360 physical body in a

00:26:49.120 flourishing life I

00:26:50.600 mean I think a lot

00:26:51.280 of philosophers it's

00:26:52.080 all in their head but

00:26:52.960 Nietzsche said that

00:26:53.820 was the wrong way to

00:26:55.500 look at a flourishing

00:26:56.260 life what role did

00:26:57.580 the body play in

00:26:58.680 Nietzsche's idea of

00:26:59.960 a flourishing happy

00:27:02.060 life it's interesting

00:27:04.960 that Nietzsche focuses

00:27:06.180 so much on the

00:27:07.580 physical and on the

00:27:08.520 body and the

00:27:09.200 importance of it

00:27:10.100 given how ill he was

00:27:12.180 much of his life and

00:27:13.660 in fact maybe that's

00:27:14.620 the reason for it that

00:27:15.800 that health life

00:27:17.500 motion seem more

00:27:19.020 precious to someone

00:27:20.000 who was often ill and

00:27:21.980 on his bed so

00:27:23.620 Nietzsche's big thing

00:27:24.460 is that the body

00:27:25.560 really matters it

00:27:27.120 doesn't just matter as

00:27:28.540 a way to move the

00:27:29.460 mind around right the

00:27:30.880 body's not the robot

00:27:32.300 and the brain is like

00:27:34.320 the controller

00:27:35.040 everything is

00:27:36.420 integrated Nietzsche

00:27:37.980 thinks that we think

00:27:39.140 through the body and

00:27:41.000 the emotions not just

00:27:42.740 with our reasoning

00:27:43.580 logical mind and in

00:27:45.420 fact he says several

00:27:46.920 times that the body

00:27:48.860 the emotions these kind

00:27:50.880 of the passions the

00:27:52.220 things that are not

00:27:52.920 always logical and

00:27:54.000 rational might be more

00:27:55.580 important to thinking

00:27:57.480 and here he means

00:27:58.320 broadly processing the

00:28:00.060 world around us than

00:28:01.580 those pure reasoning

00:28:02.820 logical minds he's

00:28:04.560 got this great quote

00:28:05.540 in Twilight of the

00:28:06.560 Idols where he says

00:28:07.440 that only ideas won by

00:28:09.520 walking have any

00:28:11.200 value and that was

00:28:12.840 something that he

00:28:13.460 lived out in his life

00:28:14.980 he wrote many of his

00:28:16.400 books while going on

00:28:17.820 long walks around

00:28:19.180 Switzerland and Italy

00:28:20.240 with small note cards

00:28:22.300 in which he jot down

00:28:23.360 aphorisms and thoughts

00:28:24.640 he found that was an

00:28:25.920 immense stimulus to

00:28:28.200 thought and that sitting

00:28:30.600 in a room sitting in

00:28:32.700 front of a typewriter or

00:28:34.080 with a page in front of

00:28:35.260 you and just trying to

00:28:36.040 come up with a book

00:28:37.020 out of your mind just

00:28:38.760 trying to think without

00:28:40.180 being mobile without

00:28:41.320 involving the body

00:28:42.540 didn't work for him and

00:28:44.540 I think that's borne out

00:28:45.940 today by psychology that

00:28:48.580 that we're seeing that

00:28:49.340 recognizes that there's

00:28:50.960 much more to us than

00:28:51.860 this kind of logical

00:28:52.740 reasoning faculty and

00:28:55.020 how does our digital

00:28:55.800 technology separate us

00:28:57.000 from our bodies well we

00:28:58.680 we just talked a bit

00:28:59.560 about about the

00:29:00.200 posture thing and I

00:29:01.160 keep coming back to

00:29:02.000 that because I think

00:29:02.800 of the stereotypical

00:29:04.500 you know what is

00:29:05.800 somebody with a screen

00:29:06.760 doing they're often

00:29:08.200 sitting on a couch

00:29:09.240 sitting on a chair or

00:29:10.820 they might be walking

00:29:11.600 down the sidewalk but

00:29:12.780 with their head down

00:29:14.080 so you're in very sort

00:29:17.320 of constricted

00:29:18.400 positions you're not

00:29:19.500 out and embracing and

00:29:21.520 even looking at the

00:29:22.680 world you're perceiving

00:29:24.140 reality increasingly

00:29:26.000 through sheets of glass

00:29:28.180 of different sizes

00:29:29.120 whether they're phones

00:29:30.100 tablets TVs that's a

00:29:32.880 hugely different

00:29:33.840 experience of life it's

00:29:36.240 a much more controlled

00:29:38.180 experience of life we

00:29:40.280 can control online

00:29:41.600 exactly where we go who

00:29:43.480 we interact with we can

00:29:44.920 close apps we can delete

00:29:46.860 emails we can block

00:29:48.240 people on Twitter but the

00:29:50.520 world itself is just not

00:29:52.140 quite that pliable and

00:29:54.260 many times that can be

00:29:55.380 frustrating but it's also

00:29:57.020 the source of many of the

00:29:58.260 most interesting things

00:29:59.500 that happen to us it's

00:30:01.480 the source of many of the

00:30:02.920 most serendipitous things

00:30:04.900 that happen to us things

00:30:05.740 that we didn't expect that

00:30:07.560 we encounter in a world we

00:30:09.780 don't fully control and so

00:30:12.240 Nietzsche is huge on using

00:30:14.640 the body thinking with the

00:30:17.120 body not just treating it as

00:30:19.780 you know a lesser adjunct to

00:30:22.900 the mind that both matter and

00:30:26.000 the kind of technology that

00:30:28.080 would stress one against the

00:30:30.240 other is perhaps not being

00:30:33.200 fully healthy so if there's a

00:30:34.880 way for us to use our

00:30:36.520 technology in ways that

00:30:37.720 encourage the use of the

00:30:39.740 body and the mind together

00:30:41.340 that's terrific but if we find

00:30:45.620 that our technology is pushing

00:30:47.680 us under the couch and we're

00:30:49.640 spending 18 hours a day staring

00:30:51.320 at a screen of some kind we

00:30:53.220 might start to suspect there's

00:30:55.120 there's a problem here

00:30:56.180 there's a writer that you

00:30:58.320 quote frequently in the book

00:30:59.960 and it's he we've had him on

00:31:01.000 the podcast before Matthew

00:31:01.960 Crawford yeah he's written and

00:31:03.880 thought a lot about this and I

00:31:05.880 love his idea that his idea of

00:31:07.940 embodied cognition like the

00:31:09.240 way you can really know

00:31:10.420 something is through the body

00:31:12.060 it's not just the mind it has

00:31:13.600 to be through the body and he

00:31:15.420 really hits home this idea that

00:31:16.580 one way that we gain knowledge

00:31:18.320 about something but also about

00:31:20.140 ourselves like the way we know

00:31:21.360 that we are ourself is when we

00:31:23.440 bump up against other selves or

00:31:26.360 other things that are not that

00:31:27.520 are not us and I feel like

00:31:29.080 oftentimes online there isn't

00:31:30.340 that boundary that hard

00:31:31.860 boundary and so it sometimes

00:31:33.820 you kind of get sort of lost in

00:31:36.160 this weird digital mass and you

00:31:38.480 you feel like you know but or

00:31:40.420 you're learning something but

00:31:41.880 you really aren't because you're

00:31:42.900 not bumping up against that that

00:31:45.300 friction in a physical way

00:31:47.420 sometimes yes online you know if

00:31:50.620 you live your life almost

00:31:51.620 completely online it can be a

00:31:54.580 good experience socially I mean

00:31:56.100 I've worked online for many

00:31:57.760 years I know many of my

00:31:59.140 colleagues very well we interact

00:32:00.820 digitally quite a bit but in in

00:32:03.720 many cases it leads to a certain

00:32:05.980 kind of solipsism where you're

00:32:08.040 you're in control you're sort of

00:32:10.140 gazing at yourself and the things

00:32:11.740 you've chosen to look at and being

00:32:13.960 in the real world being with real

00:32:15.700 other people physically just makes

00:32:18.460 that more difficult like in ways

00:32:20.560 that are frustrating but like you

00:32:22.440 said in ways that can be really

00:32:24.120 really fruitful for our

00:32:25.360 development as humans you know if we

00:32:27.620 think about you know embodied

00:32:30.460 cognition can tell us that doing

00:32:32.520 physical things over and over is a

00:32:35.880 way to learn about the world in a

00:32:37.360 really different way than just kind

00:32:38.760 of mental in a way of just typing

00:32:40.740 words on screens so I play guitar

00:32:43.460 that requires hundreds of hours of

00:32:45.760 practice but it's a very very

00:32:48.240 finely tuned physical discipline of

00:32:50.980 having your fingers know exactly

00:32:53.680 where this fret is landing on it at

00:32:56.600 exactly the right time that you have

00:32:58.160 to rehearse millions of times it's

00:33:01.000 that friction against the world

00:33:02.720 against getting it wrong refining your

00:33:05.420 results that ultimately train you in

00:33:08.600 these kinds of skills you cannot do some

00:33:12.520 of these things simply by using a

00:33:14.920 mouse a screen a cell phone there are

00:33:17.820 just limits to the type of thing that

00:33:20.020 you will experience so Nietzsche had

00:33:21.780 this idea of the Dionysian this comes

00:33:24.160 from the god Dionysus the wine god

00:33:26.220 Bacchus and it was all about chaos and 0.99

00:33:29.340 chance and risk and everything and I

00:33:33.460 think we've made the case that our

00:33:34.320 digital technology can eradicate the

00:33:36.240 Dionysian because like you have control 0.85

00:33:37.960 over it right you can completely

00:33:39.340 control how you present yourself

00:33:41.000 online who you interact with so how do

00:33:44.740 you think we can welcome the Dionysian 0.96

00:33:48.220 back in our tech infused lives

00:33:50.280 hmm yeah so this comes from Nietzsche's

00:33:54.180 early book the birth of tragedy in

00:33:57.020 which he talks about these two Greek

00:33:58.680 gods Apollo sun god who Nietzsche

00:34:02.420 associates with order reason rationality

00:34:05.540 structure control and a certain kind of

00:34:08.320 controlled detachment from the world

00:34:11.680 that creates and shapes but maybe

00:34:13.860 doesn't lose itself in the moment the

00:34:17.320 Dionysian coming from Dionysus the god

00:34:19.780 of wine is in the moment it's almost

00:34:22.540 orgiastic it's physical it's passionate

00:34:25.800 it's sensual it's today we might use the

00:34:29.600 word mindful it's not trapped thinking

00:34:32.940 about the past and the future it is in

00:34:35.660 the present and experiencing the world

00:34:37.700 now so Nietzsche doesn't say that we all

00:34:42.680 need to become Dionysian what he says is

00:34:46.120 that our culture has become too

00:34:48.960 Apollonian that we are too in love with

00:34:52.160 control order reason structure detachment

00:34:55.760 and that we need this kind of balance you

00:34:58.940 you know and I think when you pair this

00:35:01.640 up with what technology promises us

00:35:04.700 it's usually much more Apollonian not

00:35:08.620 exclusively but when you think about the

00:35:10.980 promises of technology to give you more

00:35:13.640 control over your smart home over your

00:35:16.500 health over your life over you know the

00:35:20.040 map you will have always with you so you

00:35:21.860 will never get lost right everything about

00:35:24.380 the world that was kind of wild and

00:35:26.040 unconstrained and sometimes very difficult

00:35:28.320 becomes much more ordered controlled

00:35:31.380 rational so how do we seek out this less

00:35:35.980 controlled thing you know I'm not sure we

00:35:40.780 can always do it with and in our technology

00:35:44.900 I think what our technology is telling us

00:35:49.460 as we pay attention to this dynamic is that

00:35:52.220 we may need to seek these sort of Dionysian

00:35:55.800 things outside of the technological world and

00:35:58.900 that's where this return to the physical to

00:36:01.580 walking like Nietzsche did playing a musical

00:36:05.000 instrument board gaming going to religious

00:36:08.240 services going to rock concerts right going

00:36:11.000 to yoga classes these are the sorts of things

00:36:14.600 that immerse us in present physical experiences

00:36:19.140 they get us out of our minds which often lean to

00:36:22.720 the past and the future they keep us in the

00:36:25.120 present and they give us a moment and an

00:36:27.580 experience and something physical and tangible

00:36:30.120 so if you can experience that using your physical

00:36:33.940 devices as aids more power to you but I think

00:36:37.740 they often push us to the kind of life where we

00:36:41.100 feel most comfortable when we're fully in control

00:36:44.560 and we're often you know in that controlled state

00:36:48.480 we're often thinking about things we did in the

00:36:51.120 past or worrying about things we're going to do

00:36:52.960 in the future and Nietzsche calls us to break out

00:36:56.200 of that well yeah I think we I feel like we we think

00:36:59.260 we want to control everything but once we get it we

00:37:01.780 actually realize this doesn't actually make us

00:37:04.000 happy and it made me think I think there's a

00:37:06.100 twilight zone episode that really captured this it's

00:37:09.260 uh the one a nice place to visit where the gambler

00:37:12.020 character dies and he goes to what is he thinks is

00:37:15.420 heaven and like he's winning every you know

00:37:18.260 craps games he plays roulette uh he's got all these

00:37:21.160 nice clothes at first he thinks it's great then

00:37:24.120 after a while he's like this this stinks and then he

00:37:27.100 realizes he's not in heaven he's in hell and he

00:37:29.280 ought to do this he'll just have to win every his life's

00:37:31.280 going to be great for forever and it just he it made

00:37:34.480 him miserable and but what's funny is like he

00:37:36.680 asked like well or like this his guide was like well

00:37:39.780 we can make you lose sometimes if you want that'll make

00:37:42.220 you happy and he's like no like I know that like I know

00:37:44.940 that I'd be losing on purpose like you guys would be in

00:37:47.180 control of that so it's not the same and I I've heard this

00:37:50.440 discussion about control and lack of control being

00:37:55.040 discussed with the metaverse like this idea is like well

00:37:58.160 can if we want to kind of make it fun we have to make it

00:38:00.960 unpredictable make it feel like people don't have control

00:38:03.980 but it's like wait well if if people know you are kind of

00:38:07.660 injecting chaos on purpose then it's not the same like it

00:38:10.900 philosophically it doesn't it doesn't have that same

00:38:13.700 effect of knowing that it's completely random and out of

00:38:16.140 your hands because you know that someone is actually

00:38:18.660 controlling the uncontrollability does that make

00:38:22.800 sense yeah it's just a different layer of control

00:38:24.920 right right and and it gets to the question of do we

00:38:28.220 ultimately want that kind of control that's what technology

00:38:30.920 has always promised us right we control over the weather

00:38:34.580 bridges give us control over you know crossing rivers on

00:38:39.060 and on technology always helps us control these forces that

00:38:42.560 have dominated human life for millennia but I it does seem like

00:38:47.320 we're coming to a place where we are in such control of our

00:38:50.520 lives that sometimes we look around and say you know maybe I

00:38:55.360 don't actually know what the best thing is from and this is

00:38:59.680 where testing yourself against the world and striving in it you

00:39:04.020 know in all its unpredictability and sometimes frustration and

00:39:07.300 sometimes futility may ultimately be more rewarding than having the

00:39:12.320 kind of lifestyle where you're talking about where someone is just

00:39:16.160 totally in control of everything they do the unpredictability has been

00:39:19.980 sanded off life is is very safe it's very easy but it's also fairly

00:39:26.340 predictable you know I'm not sure I want to live in a world in which I

00:39:30.300 know and control everything that's going to happen to me

00:39:32.820 no I don't either I don't either and I think we said throughout this

00:39:36.620 conversation you're not against technology I wouldn't say Nietzsche's

00:39:39.380 was against technology in fact he used one of the first typewriters ever

00:39:43.020 invented it's like this ball thing with like keys on top of the ball is

00:39:46.400 really weird and he actually he actually noted that the typewriter

00:39:50.480 changed his writing style it made it a little more punchy which I think is

00:39:54.180 interesting so how do we figure out what role tech will have in our life

00:39:59.700 without turning us into these sort of blinking potato head last men right well

00:40:06.160 I don't think we can go back and I'm not I'm certainly not calling for us to go

00:40:10.620 back I don't see very many people who are even as they're identifying these

00:40:14.060 problems you know Nietzsche himself has a great quote where he says we are

00:40:19.700 faltering but we must not let it make us afraid and perhaps surrender the new

00:40:25.040 things we've gained moreover we cannot return to the old we've burned our boats

00:40:30.300 all that remains for us is to be brave let happen what may let us only go forward

00:40:36.280 and I think that's the situation we're in I wouldn't give up the very useful ease

00:40:44.080 control comfort that technology has brought to human life I mean you have only to

00:40:48.180 look at places in the world that completely lack those things and and

00:40:52.640 desire them greatly to think the goal here is not getting rid of all that but

00:40:57.700 it is to find a way to move forward that works works with human life that's

00:41:02.180 helping us serve life I think Nietzsche's answer to that is going back to those

00:41:08.220 Nietzschean goals that help us find and create meaning that help us advance the

00:41:14.020 frontiers of what it means to be human even in small ways in our own lives in

00:41:18.580 our own communities right this cannot mean that everybody is the world's

00:41:23.560 greatest artist or a great states person or whatever these can be very small

00:41:29.620 things but what's always involved is forward movement and I think if we look at

00:41:35.760 our lives and we say is technology serving as a distraction as a time

00:41:41.480 filter as a source of information overload as something that keeps us apart from

00:41:46.360 the physical world then insofar as it does that there are problems but we can

00:41:53.080 also say is it or could it be an enabler of creative struggle of self

00:41:58.940 overcoming of connection with the world of enforcing the limits that that actually

00:42:03.820 help us to live and I think it can be there are ways to do that with

00:42:09.460 technology but they require intention and this is why I don't think some of the

00:42:15.500 discussions around these issues I think are a little simplistic and what you end

00:42:19.620 up with are what I call in the book tech tips you know things like just put your

00:42:24.420 phone in a basket when you come in the room or you know only two hours of screen

00:42:29.600 time per day but with and these kind of tips are often divorced from thinking about

00:42:35.100 what do I really need out of life and what's the best way to get there because

00:42:39.320 I think there are situations in which you need more technology to do certain

00:42:43.080 things so I think if we keep the goals in mind that when we have time and space to

00:42:50.580 reflect on our lives we think this feels meaningful to me and I'm going to take a

00:42:55.040 shot at it and then I'm going to see what the next step is from there that's

00:42:59.080 going to be better for us than retreating from that difficult responsibility and

00:43:05.080 letting these tech companies and their services kind of overwhelm our attention

00:43:09.280 take it captive fill it and eventually we find that our lives have been reduced to

00:43:15.980 touching or watching screens of glass and I think we're going to find that that's

00:43:21.200 not ultimately the best thing for us or for the world for me like the heuristic is

00:43:27.080 it's not a tip but it's sort of a guiding principle when I know I have a

00:43:31.700 healthy relationship with a technology is is if it encourages me to to be creative

00:43:38.260 to get out in the real world and do things I think it's great you know if

00:43:41.040 people watch YouTube they watch some guy you know building like a I don't know

00:43:45.460 like doing survival skills on YouTube yeah it doesn't just stop there but they

00:43:49.320 actually go out and start trying to do this that stuff themselves like I think

00:43:52.660 that's a great example of technology being life-affirming and encouraging

00:43:56.040 creativity the same goes for like different digital communication apps

00:44:00.520 whether it's Facebook or discord or whatever whatever you want to use I feel

00:44:05.360 like if as long as it encourages people to get together and do this stuff like do

00:44:09.120 things in person then that's healthy like I think it's that can be a really

00:44:12.820 great way to incorporate technology in your life right and for as much as we hear

00:44:17.820 negatively about sites like YouTube and the way that the algorithms might push

00:44:22.120 people toward extremist content etc I agree a hundred percent with what you

00:44:26.880 said I mean YouTube is one of the best sites out there for learning new sort of

00:44:32.440 physical skills I mean I've used it to do all sorts of things involving

00:44:36.840 construction I learned how to fix bike brakes for my kids bikes I mean I have

00:44:42.440 learned a bajillion things from YouTube that would be very hard to demonstrate

00:44:46.140 just through a book and have pushed me back into the physical world with new

00:44:51.820 skills and that were very satisfying to use and execute and that seeing

00:44:56.600 somebody do them was hugely beneficial for so I absolutely agree that if we take

00:45:02.460 control as much as we can of this technology if we're mindful about what

00:45:06.860 we're trying to do these things can be powerful enablers of the kinds of things

00:45:11.720 we've been talking about and that it's you know moving forward in this way is not

00:45:16.220 necessarily some kind of total retreat from technology well Nate this has been a

00:45:21.300 great conversation where can people go to learn more about the book in your work

00:45:24.160 so I work for Ars Technica we're a Condé Nast publication that writes about

00:45:29.720 science and technology so they can see my work there or the book is called in

00:45:34.140 emergency break glass and you can get it at any fine bookseller

00:45:39.280 fantastic well Nate Anderson thanks for your time it's been a pleasure

00:45:42.160 thanks so much my guest today was Nate Anderson he's the author of the book in

00:45:47.020 emergency break glass what Nietzsche can teach us about joyful living in a tech

00:45:50.560 saturated world it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere check

00:45:53.840 out our show notes at aom.is break glass we can find links to resources we can delve

00:45:57.360 deeper into this topic

00:45:58.280 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast make sure to check out our website at

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00:46:37.440 until next time this is brett mckay remind you not listening to a podcast but put what you've heard

00:46:41.280 into action

The Art of Manliness - June 01, 2022

What Nietzsche Can Teach Us About Joyful Living in a Tech-Saturated World

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