The Art of Manliness - July 31, 2025


What Nietzsche Can Teach Us About Joyful Living in a Tech-Saturated World


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Summary

Nate Anderson is the author of In Emergency, Break Glass: What Nietzsche Can Teach Us About Joyful Living in a Tech-Saturated World. In this episode, he talks about his new book, and why he thinks the philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche can help us have a healthy relationship with modern technology.


Transcript

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00:00:30.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition
00:00:32.300 of the Art of Manliness podcast.
00:00:34.320 Friedrich Nietzsche is famous for espousing a philosophy
00:00:36.460 that may be a help in wrestling with existential angst
00:00:38.840 and finding meaning in life.
00:00:40.320 My guests would say that Nietzsche's philosophy
00:00:41.720 may also be useful for figuring out something else,
00:00:44.560 how to have a healthy relationship with modern technology.
00:00:47.220 His name is Nate Anderson,
00:00:48.240 and he's the author of In Emergency, Break Glass,
00:00:50.440 what Nietzsche can teach us about joyful living
00:00:52.360 in a tech-saturated world.
00:00:54.080 Today on the show, Nate, who's a deputy editor
00:00:55.660 at the website Ars Technica,
00:00:57.160 shares how someone who grew up loving technology
00:00:59.040 and has spent his career writing about it,
00:01:00.740 reached a point where he felt disenchanted
00:01:02.320 with his effects on his life
00:01:03.480 and why he turned to the philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche
00:01:05.600 for insights on how to approach tech more fruitfully.
00:01:08.400 We then turned the way tech has made life too safe,
00:01:10.620 easy, and frictionless,
00:01:11.820 and how Nietzschean goals, asceticism,
00:01:13.920 and creative, self-overcoming exertion
00:01:15.800 can help us find deeper fulfillment.
00:01:17.340 Nate unpacks four Nietzsche-inspired guidelines
00:01:19.320 for information consumption,
00:01:20.600 the importance of the physical body
00:01:21.840 in thinking and feeling,
00:01:22.940 and our need to embrace greater Dionysian energy
00:01:25.040 and perhaps live a bit more dangerously.
00:01:27.700 After the show's over,
00:01:28.340 check out our show notes at aom.is slash breakglass.
00:01:43.280 Nate Anderson, welcome to the show.
00:01:45.540 Thanks for having me.
00:01:46.920 So you got a new book out called
00:01:48.180 In Emergency, Break Glass,
00:01:50.660 What Nietzsche Can Teach Us About Joyful Living
00:01:52.840 in a Tech-Saturated World.
00:01:55.020 And I was saying earlier before we got on,
00:01:56.980 you combined two of my favorite things,
00:01:59.140 the philosophy of Friedrich Nietzsche
00:02:00.500 and thinking about how our digital technology
00:02:03.860 can be incorporated in our life in a meaningful way.
00:02:07.500 You start off this book talking about,
00:02:09.620 you reached a point in your life
00:02:11.240 where technology,
00:02:13.180 digital technology seemed to become disenchanted.
00:02:16.500 It felt like it was making your life small,
00:02:19.300 which is interesting
00:02:20.060 because you've made a career
00:02:21.040 writing about digital technology.
00:02:22.600 I mean, you're a deputy editor at Ars Technica,
00:02:25.420 which is a digital news tech site.
00:02:27.660 So walk us through the process.
00:02:28.740 How did a guy who has, you know,
00:02:31.140 spent his life working with digital technology,
00:02:33.800 writing about it, thinking about it,
00:02:35.520 kind of be like,
00:02:36.120 ah, I'm getting kind of tired of this.
00:02:38.480 Yeah.
00:02:38.980 I mean, the book comes from a place
00:02:40.440 of real love for technology.
00:02:42.420 When I was a kid,
00:02:43.600 I'm from the generation
00:02:44.640 where my first computers were magical,
00:02:47.880 but very difficult devices.
00:02:50.220 I mean, we're talking,
00:02:52.260 you had to type in programs out of magazines
00:02:54.560 if you wanted cool stuff to run.
00:02:56.860 So these devices were all about tinkering,
00:03:00.000 about coding,
00:03:01.160 so much learning and creativity required
00:03:03.740 even to get your computer to do something.
00:03:07.300 That for me was a really magical experience as a kid.
00:03:11.060 As I grew up,
00:03:12.580 as we got, you know,
00:03:13.860 more digital technology in our lives,
00:03:16.240 smartphones and the internet came in,
00:03:18.380 and I felt a real shift
00:03:20.020 that I think a lot of people have felt
00:03:22.080 to where technology becomes about consumption
00:03:26.460 and about interruption.
00:03:29.140 If you think in your life,
00:03:30.660 how much of your time with technology
00:03:32.340 might be taken up by Netflix and Spotify,
00:03:36.620 or how many times your train of thought
00:03:39.380 is interrupted during the day
00:03:40.800 by texts, emails, notifications,
00:03:44.040 pings on some kind of device,
00:03:45.960 that was a real shift
00:03:47.980 from what I experienced as a kid.
00:03:50.660 In the words of the techies,
00:03:53.240 things got frictionless.
00:03:55.140 That's been a hot description
00:03:57.220 of what people have been trying to do
00:03:58.840 for years now,
00:03:59.980 and they've largely succeeded.
00:04:02.840 You know, unlike in the old days
00:04:04.100 where everything was hard,
00:04:05.620 things now are engineered
00:04:07.020 to attract and addict.
00:04:09.380 And I think of it a bit like
00:04:11.420 the difference between
00:04:13.460 baking your own cookies
00:04:15.080 versus buying them from the store.
00:04:17.820 Cookies are never going to be super healthy
00:04:19.800 for you to consume in large quantities,
00:04:21.640 but if you've got to do the work
00:04:23.420 of making a batch of cookies,
00:04:26.100 making the dough,
00:04:27.420 baking them for 20 minutes,
00:04:29.340 you're not likely to stuff your face
00:04:31.040 with cookies all the time every day.
00:04:33.120 When you can just add them
00:04:34.400 to your shopping cart,
00:04:35.480 they're pre-made,
00:04:36.220 they're right there,
00:04:37.780 they're ready to go,
00:04:38.980 it's much easier
00:04:39.980 to engage in unhealthy behaviors.
00:04:42.440 I feel like the same way
00:04:43.720 about technology.
00:04:44.560 As it became frictionless,
00:04:46.720 as it became easier,
00:04:48.540 as companies really began
00:04:50.400 pushing consumption,
00:04:52.280 as the tech itself began
00:04:53.560 to interrupt our lives
00:04:55.100 in a bid to, you know,
00:04:56.840 lure our attention,
00:04:58.840 that it became somewhat unhealthy,
00:05:00.680 at least for me.
00:05:01.920 So I just found that
00:05:03.120 so much of my attention,
00:05:04.580 which is to say my life,
00:05:06.820 was going toward these devices,
00:05:08.500 toward these glass screens.
00:05:10.820 It was safe,
00:05:13.240 it was easy,
00:05:14.000 it was entertaining,
00:05:15.100 but I guess it all felt
00:05:17.200 somewhat motionless.
00:05:18.880 And given that life itself
00:05:20.840 is motion,
00:05:23.040 things began to feel
00:05:23.960 perhaps a bit lifeless.
00:05:25.820 Okay, so you're feeling lifeless,
00:05:27.460 thanks to the way
00:05:28.900 digital technology has directed us
00:05:30.600 towards more frictionless living.
00:05:32.040 How did the German philosopher,
00:05:35.200 Friedrich Nietzsche,
00:05:36.160 end up as your guide
00:05:37.280 on how to navigate
00:05:38.520 this frictionless,
00:05:40.200 tech-saturated world?
00:05:42.420 Yes, sort of an unusual choice there.
00:05:45.280 But my path in college,
00:05:47.200 I majored in philosophy
00:05:48.740 and had a real love
00:05:50.480 for that sort of thinking
00:05:51.960 and reading and learning.
00:05:54.700 And I'd really let that go
00:05:56.120 for quite a while.
00:05:57.860 But in my bid
00:05:59.980 to sort of remedy
00:06:01.100 some of these problems,
00:06:02.140 I turned back to some of that.
00:06:03.680 And Nietzsche was one of those figures
00:06:05.320 who, you know,
00:06:06.600 you always hear about.
00:06:07.900 You hear about him today.
00:06:09.300 He's the most memable
00:06:10.440 of the philosophers.
00:06:12.120 He's a great quote machine.
00:06:14.400 And so I went to his work
00:06:15.820 because I'd never studied it much.
00:06:17.620 And what I found there
00:06:19.880 was someone
00:06:21.260 who was not advocating
00:06:22.760 for life
00:06:23.300 that was either safe
00:06:24.500 or easy.
00:06:25.440 He was passionate
00:06:26.860 about finding
00:06:28.100 or creating meaning in life,
00:06:30.660 about striving
00:06:31.640 in and against reality,
00:06:33.460 not becoming detached
00:06:34.700 from the world
00:06:36.060 or experiencing
00:06:36.880 at a remove
00:06:37.740 through screens and lenses,
00:06:40.420 but about, you know,
00:06:41.960 struggling to do new
00:06:43.300 and creative things
00:06:44.220 in yourself
00:06:44.880 and in the world.
00:06:46.140 So his work hit me hard
00:06:48.600 in part because
00:06:49.460 it was so readable
00:06:50.520 compared to every other
00:06:52.020 German philosopher
00:06:52.900 I've ever read.
00:06:53.660 and I just read
00:06:55.640 all of it.
00:06:56.540 And it occurred to me
00:06:58.100 as I was working
00:06:58.840 through all this material
00:06:59.860 that Nietzsche
00:07:00.960 was a good pairing
00:07:02.780 with this tech world
00:07:04.380 where I've been working
00:07:05.200 and thinking in.
00:07:06.720 It's a world
00:07:07.260 where everyone says
00:07:07.980 they want to change
00:07:08.960 the world.
00:07:09.600 That's the common mantra
00:07:11.040 for everyone who,
00:07:12.000 you know,
00:07:12.680 founds a startup company
00:07:13.960 these days.
00:07:15.040 But I looked around
00:07:16.260 and saw that many of them
00:07:17.140 seemed more interested
00:07:18.040 in an IPO
00:07:19.300 or selling advertising.
00:07:21.900 This wasn't exactly
00:07:23.480 the change the world
00:07:24.660 creative struggle
00:07:25.680 that I was looking for
00:07:27.660 and that Nietzsche
00:07:28.260 talked about.
00:07:29.680 So I thought
00:07:30.700 they're interesting
00:07:31.220 to put Nietzsche's voice
00:07:32.860 into this conversation
00:07:35.160 with the tech world.
00:07:36.480 But I guess
00:07:37.020 I do want to be clear
00:07:38.080 that, you know,
00:07:38.740 I don't take Nietzsche
00:07:39.760 as my guide.
00:07:41.800 I think anybody
00:07:42.320 who knows enough
00:07:43.220 about Nietzsche
00:07:43.760 knows that he had
00:07:44.540 some pretty
00:07:45.040 controversial opinions
00:07:46.640 and ways
00:07:48.220 of expressing himself
00:07:49.180 that in some cases
00:07:50.620 are unhelpful.
00:07:52.160 And I look at him
00:07:53.460 more as someone
00:07:54.140 to think with
00:07:55.760 rather than,
00:07:57.120 you know,
00:07:57.680 someone to follow
00:07:58.620 or to become
00:07:59.700 a disciple of.
00:08:01.400 Well, and he would actually
00:08:02.100 agree with you
00:08:03.620 on that approach.
00:08:04.300 He actually never
00:08:05.060 wanted disciples.
00:08:06.300 He wanted fellow
00:08:07.160 thinkers with him.
00:08:09.440 He did.
00:08:10.180 Right, right.
00:08:10.860 I've got a great quote
00:08:12.280 here from him
00:08:12.900 that was in his
00:08:13.800 autobiography.
00:08:15.240 He says,
00:08:15.900 I'm no man,
00:08:17.160 I'm dynamite.
00:08:18.140 I want no believers.
00:08:20.560 I never speak
00:08:21.420 to the masses.
00:08:22.560 I have a terrible fear
00:08:23.800 that one day
00:08:24.580 I will be pronounced holy.
00:08:26.400 I do not want
00:08:27.300 to be a holy man.
00:08:29.100 And I think
00:08:29.880 that's right.
00:08:30.980 And he really
00:08:32.160 tells people
00:08:33.400 to take
00:08:34.500 what he's saying
00:08:35.220 but to apply it
00:08:36.300 to their own lives
00:08:37.040 in their own ways
00:08:37.940 and not to make him
00:08:39.000 their guru.
00:08:40.040 So let's talk about
00:08:40.860 Nietzsche's idea
00:08:42.720 of the good life.
00:08:43.380 I think you hit on it
00:08:44.020 a little bit.
00:08:45.040 The idea of the good life
00:08:45.880 that he had was
00:08:46.660 striving,
00:08:48.640 having a goal,
00:08:49.660 living with passion,
00:08:51.160 not a life of ease,
00:08:52.880 right?
00:08:53.080 He believed in
00:08:53.620 the kind of strenuous life.
00:08:55.020 Things should be hard.
00:08:55.800 That's where you find meaning.
00:08:57.620 How does
00:08:58.340 Nietzsche's idea
00:08:59.540 of a flourishing life
00:09:01.120 differ
00:09:02.040 from the flourishing life
00:09:03.460 that our digital
00:09:04.220 technology offers?
00:09:07.120 Right.
00:09:07.600 So I think you put
00:09:08.220 your finger on it
00:09:09.040 that it's about
00:09:10.180 struggle
00:09:11.220 and creative exertion.
00:09:13.160 I don't think
00:09:13.960 that has to mean
00:09:15.440 for Nietzsche
00:09:15.920 that life is miserable
00:09:17.260 or that we're
00:09:19.160 always struggling
00:09:19.980 in the sense
00:09:20.560 of being at war
00:09:21.920 but we're striving
00:09:23.420 to do creative
00:09:24.480 and interesting things
00:09:25.500 in ourselves
00:09:26.340 and in the worlds
00:09:27.600 around us
00:09:28.020 to overcome
00:09:28.540 our human limitations
00:09:29.720 and press forward.
00:09:31.280 That's what he's
00:09:31.920 talking about.
00:09:33.100 He refers to this
00:09:34.360 as being the
00:09:35.180 ubermensch,
00:09:36.000 the over person,
00:09:37.540 the person who
00:09:38.080 kind of transcends
00:09:39.300 our humanity
00:09:39.960 or tries to push
00:09:40.900 the boundaries
00:09:41.440 of it forward.
00:09:42.500 That's what he respected
00:09:43.740 in life.
00:09:44.880 That's what he
00:09:45.600 tried to do
00:09:47.140 and what he said
00:09:48.920 in contrast
00:09:49.540 was that we just
00:09:50.980 don't want a life
00:09:52.080 where the goal
00:09:52.980 is comfort,
00:09:54.080 ease,
00:09:54.760 and safety
00:09:55.460 and I think some of this
00:09:56.740 comes out of his own
00:09:57.580 personal biography.
00:09:58.840 He was very ill
00:10:00.460 all of his life.
00:10:02.400 He gave up
00:10:03.260 his tenured
00:10:04.280 professorship
00:10:05.020 as a fairly young man
00:10:06.480 and wandered around
00:10:07.560 Europe
00:10:07.880 with very little money
00:10:08.940 until he went insane.
00:10:11.200 So he did not have
00:10:12.580 a comfortable,
00:10:13.600 easy,
00:10:14.380 or safe life
00:10:15.340 and I think he looked
00:10:16.580 at people who did
00:10:17.620 and who seemed
00:10:18.440 to value only that
00:10:20.020 and he looked
00:10:21.480 at himself
00:10:22.040 and he said
00:10:23.520 this is not an option
00:10:24.920 for me
00:10:25.660 and if this is what
00:10:26.740 life is about
00:10:27.500 I've already lost
00:10:28.960 and so he set about
00:10:30.620 looking for different
00:10:31.520 ways to think about it.
00:10:33.420 He calls this
00:10:34.100 in one place
00:10:34.860 living that way
00:10:36.040 to try to be
00:10:36.660 comfortable,
00:10:37.360 safe,
00:10:37.680 and easy.
00:10:38.100 He calls living
00:10:38.920 the life
00:10:39.380 of the last man
00:10:40.660 not really
00:10:41.700 because it ends
00:10:42.480 the human race
00:10:43.420 in a physical sense
00:10:45.300 because ease,
00:10:46.600 safety,
00:10:46.900 and comfort
00:10:47.400 tend to keep life
00:10:49.000 going because
00:10:49.640 you're safe
00:10:50.480 but because
00:10:51.900 in a sort of
00:10:52.560 spiritual,
00:10:53.780 moral sense
00:10:54.740 it's kind of
00:10:55.860 the end
00:10:56.320 of human
00:10:56.940 striving,
00:10:58.320 effort,
00:10:58.940 and ambition
00:10:59.600 that we've given up
00:11:00.640 on trying to be
00:11:01.340 more than we could be.
00:11:04.000 So that's
00:11:05.020 what Nietzsche calls
00:11:06.220 for is the good life
00:11:07.080 is this goal
00:11:07.980 of struggling
00:11:08.700 forward
00:11:09.280 and he has
00:11:10.280 this amazing quote
00:11:11.280 that's what he
00:11:12.940 means by that.
00:11:13.660 So he says,
00:11:14.560 the secret for
00:11:15.420 harvesting from existence
00:11:16.860 the greatest fruitfulness
00:11:18.240 and the greatest
00:11:19.320 enjoyment
00:11:19.880 is to live
00:11:21.040 dangerously.
00:11:22.860 Build your cities
00:11:23.700 on the slopes
00:11:24.400 of Vesuvius.
00:11:25.760 Send your ships
00:11:26.580 into uncharted seas.
00:11:28.380 Live at war
00:11:29.320 with your peers
00:11:30.160 and yourselves.
00:11:31.720 Be robbers
00:11:32.500 and conquerors
00:11:33.460 as long as
00:11:34.080 you cannot be
00:11:34.620 rulers and possessors
00:11:35.940 you seekers
00:11:36.860 of knowledge.
00:11:38.420 So,
00:11:39.160 you know,
00:11:39.580 it's important
00:11:40.140 to note
00:11:40.560 that he is
00:11:41.100 talking to
00:11:41.600 seekers of knowledge.
00:11:42.440 He is not
00:11:42.900 calling for people
00:11:43.800 to be jerks
00:11:44.820 or warmongers
00:11:46.460 but this is
00:11:48.040 the sort of
00:11:48.560 vision of life
00:11:49.740 that he has
00:11:50.760 as the good life.
00:11:52.320 And I love,
00:11:52.700 I think what our
00:11:53.700 digital technology
00:11:54.380 does with this
00:11:55.000 it encourages
00:11:55.700 this frictionless
00:11:56.880 easy consumption.
00:11:59.300 I think
00:11:59.700 the type of person
00:12:01.220 that it creates
00:12:01.880 like that last man
00:12:03.480 that Nietzsche describes
00:12:04.500 it just perfectly
00:12:05.160 encapsulates that
00:12:06.040 there's a Nietzsche
00:12:07.000 scholar
00:12:07.800 Robert Solomon
00:12:08.760 who described
00:12:10.060 the last man
00:12:10.980 as the ultimate
00:12:11.700 couch potato.
00:12:13.460 And I love the quote
00:12:14.280 about, you know,
00:12:15.020 the last man
00:12:15.680 and their ethos
00:12:16.240 towards why.
00:12:16.720 This is from Nietzsche.
00:12:17.920 This is from
00:12:18.700 Thus Spoke Zarathustra.
00:12:20.920 It says,
00:12:21.960 we discovered happiness
00:12:23.140 say the last man
00:12:24.660 and blink.
00:12:26.060 So,
00:12:26.260 I just love that idea
00:12:26.780 like they just blink.
00:12:27.960 You know,
00:12:28.060 it's just sort of like
00:12:28.500 they're not really thinking
00:12:29.300 they're just kind of
00:12:30.120 just their existing
00:12:31.020 they think they've got
00:12:32.440 happiness in their comfort
00:12:33.660 but actually they don't.
00:12:36.440 Yeah,
00:12:36.960 and I think
00:12:37.920 if you just
00:12:38.360 if you're talking
00:12:38.960 about digital technology
00:12:40.180 and if you just look
00:12:41.640 at sort of a physical
00:12:42.580 sense of what it
00:12:44.000 can do to us
00:12:45.420 there are lots of things
00:12:46.660 it can do
00:12:47.320 and does do
00:12:48.040 in people's lives
00:12:48.840 but at least in my life
00:12:49.960 I looked around
00:12:51.020 and found that
00:12:51.600 it was leading me
00:12:52.380 to spend a lot of time
00:12:53.840 sitting on the couch
00:12:55.340 or sitting on a chair
00:12:56.900 or looking at a screen,
00:12:59.420 right?
00:12:59.660 and that seemed
00:13:00.620 a very limited range
00:13:02.300 of things
00:13:03.120 to do
00:13:03.940 with my life
00:13:04.840 with my time
00:13:05.620 with my attention
00:13:06.620 and yet so much of it
00:13:08.320 was going into those postures
00:13:10.260 and that was kind of
00:13:12.100 for me a sign
00:13:13.040 you know
00:13:13.860 that what Nietzsche is saying
00:13:15.160 about being the ultimate
00:13:16.600 couch potato
00:13:17.340 like this works
00:13:18.360 you can live
00:13:20.020 you can enjoy yourself
00:13:22.060 it's fairly undemanding
00:13:23.660 but there's a hollowness to it
00:13:26.740 and it just felt like
00:13:28.540 the digital technology
00:13:29.960 I was immersed in
00:13:31.180 at least I was not using it
00:13:32.740 in ways that were helping me
00:13:34.120 serve life
00:13:35.260 grow
00:13:36.160 move forward
00:13:37.340 and so Nietzsche helped me
00:13:39.060 find new ways
00:13:40.180 of thinking about
00:13:40.880 what I would want
00:13:42.300 from my technology
00:13:43.260 so Nietzsche
00:13:44.740 he's an existentialist
00:13:46.120 and existentialists
00:13:46.920 are all about
00:13:47.340 finding meaning in life
00:13:49.000 and the problem
00:13:50.120 that Nietzsche was grappling with
00:13:51.400 is he saw
00:13:52.900 and he described
00:13:53.740 that in modern life
00:13:55.080 we killed meaning
00:13:56.840 that was given to us
00:13:58.180 by God
00:13:58.760 right
00:13:59.000 so people
00:13:59.520 before modernity
00:14:01.180 ordered their life
00:14:02.140 around this idea
00:14:03.140 that there is God
00:14:03.920 and God provided meaning
00:14:05.000 Nietzsche said
00:14:05.880 in the 19th century
00:14:06.640 we killed God
00:14:07.700 with science
00:14:08.480 and whatever
00:14:08.840 and he said
00:14:09.200 this is terrible
00:14:09.920 actually that whole thing
00:14:11.480 you know
00:14:11.680 God is dead
00:14:12.280 like Nietzsche thought
00:14:12.980 that was actually
00:14:13.820 a bad thing
00:14:14.480 because it means
00:14:15.560 people no longer
00:14:16.200 have a meaning in life
00:14:17.120 and so he said
00:14:18.080 okay
00:14:18.420 if we can't look to religion
00:14:20.240 to provide us meaning
00:14:21.080 we have to create
00:14:22.100 our own meaning
00:14:22.720 so Nietzsche
00:14:23.720 is all about goals
00:14:24.660 but it was a certain
00:14:25.860 type of goal
00:14:26.720 that Nietzsche
00:14:28.120 had in mind
00:14:28.940 for life
00:14:29.700 what made a goal
00:14:31.200 Nietzschean
00:14:31.860 so like you said
00:14:34.020 it's all about
00:14:35.200 meaning
00:14:36.060 and there's some people
00:14:37.660 who think of Nietzsche
00:14:38.920 and brand him
00:14:40.200 with the name
00:14:40.820 of a nihilist
00:14:41.960 someone who just wants
00:14:42.840 to tear everything down
00:14:44.280 there's no point
00:14:45.300 to existence
00:14:46.000 I think that's a radical
00:14:47.800 misreading of Nietzsche
00:14:49.380 his entire existence
00:14:51.000 was about trying
00:14:52.260 to find meaning
00:14:53.100 in a world
00:14:53.940 where he felt
00:14:54.480 like it had collapsed
00:14:55.520 and that's what
00:14:56.420 he struggled for
00:14:57.180 his entire life
00:14:58.260 so like you said
00:14:59.840 for him
00:15:00.540 he found it
00:15:02.180 in self-created goals
00:15:04.700 he has a great quote
00:15:06.280 where he says
00:15:06.820 if we possess
00:15:08.180 our why of life
00:15:09.920 we can put up
00:15:11.200 with almost
00:15:12.020 any how
00:15:13.200 and I think
00:15:14.660 you can see that
00:15:15.440 in the life
00:15:16.060 of every sort of
00:15:17.220 revolutionary
00:15:18.300 who's ever lived
00:15:19.460 you can see it
00:15:20.360 in many artists
00:15:21.120 you can see it
00:15:21.820 in all sorts of people
00:15:23.020 including religious people
00:15:24.340 the goal
00:15:26.400 and happiness
00:15:28.180 is not always attained
00:15:29.600 by being safe
00:15:31.260 easy and comfortable
00:15:32.080 on the couch
00:15:32.860 it's often gained
00:15:34.400 through struggle
00:15:36.240 through difficulty
00:15:37.280 through living in
00:15:38.560 reduced physical circumstances
00:15:40.420 but with a goal
00:15:41.840 of doing something
00:15:43.120 that you love
00:15:43.940 or that you think
00:15:44.700 will really change
00:15:45.400 the world
00:15:45.940 so Nietzsche's
00:15:47.340 really in that tradition
00:15:48.320 and when he says
00:15:50.380 we need a why
00:15:52.180 of life
00:15:52.840 these kind of goals
00:15:53.960 he's talking about
00:15:54.900 are the sorts of things
00:15:55.880 we've been discussing
00:15:56.760 he sees them as
00:15:58.860 creative
00:16:00.400 self-overcoming goals
00:16:02.660 that move us forward
00:16:03.900 and what do we mean
00:16:05.540 by self-overcoming
00:16:06.660 I mean if you think of
00:16:07.660 think of an artist
00:16:08.880 who paints a style
00:16:10.760 of picture
00:16:11.220 and it becomes
00:16:11.640 very popular
00:16:12.460 but you know
00:16:14.100 most good artists
00:16:15.480 are not content
00:16:16.740 with doing that
00:16:17.400 their entire career
00:16:18.340 the people who do stop
00:16:20.280 and just keep churning out
00:16:22.020 this thing that's popular
00:16:23.100 and they keep selling
00:16:24.040 over and over
00:16:25.120 with very little variation
00:16:26.320 you know
00:16:27.140 we don't always
00:16:27.840 look kindly
00:16:28.820 on that trajectory
00:16:29.700 once they're gone
00:16:31.060 we say maybe
00:16:31.560 they didn't really have
00:16:32.540 the courage
00:16:33.620 or the interest
00:16:34.280 in kind of
00:16:34.760 moving beyond that
00:16:36.160 but great artists
00:16:37.180 are always changing
00:16:38.320 and evolving
00:16:39.420 and growing
00:16:40.340 and trying to do
00:16:41.020 something new
00:16:41.620 they haven't done before
00:16:42.620 that's what Nietzsche's
00:16:43.860 talking about
00:16:44.680 applying that attitude
00:16:46.500 toward our own lives
00:16:48.400 and you know
00:16:49.560 it does not mean
00:16:50.520 that everyone's trying
00:16:51.560 to be a revolutionary
00:16:52.400 who changes the world
00:16:53.680 in some kind of
00:16:54.440 massive big picture
00:16:55.940 historical sense
00:16:57.060 Nietzsche himself
00:16:58.080 didn't try to do
00:16:58.880 anything like that
00:16:59.800 but he sought the truth
00:17:02.160 he sought new ways
00:17:03.700 of writing and thinking
00:17:04.700 and he was always
00:17:06.840 pushing beyond
00:17:07.760 in style
00:17:08.480 in content
00:17:09.220 from what he had done before
00:17:10.520 I think that's the sort of thing
00:17:12.340 he's calling people to
00:17:13.620 in your own domain
00:17:14.680 in your own area of life
00:17:16.100 don't settle
00:17:17.300 for doing the same thing
00:17:19.420 over and over
00:17:20.180 for coming home
00:17:21.140 at the end of a work day
00:17:22.200 where you're working
00:17:22.720 for somebody else
00:17:23.640 and you're just reduced
00:17:26.000 to kind of tiredness
00:17:27.220 and you have no
00:17:29.040 no bigger picture
00:17:30.640 things that you struggle for
00:17:32.020 there's nothing left
00:17:33.080 that you create
00:17:33.960 or that you strive for
00:17:35.320 so that's what he's
00:17:36.320 calling people to
00:17:37.140 and if people can find
00:17:38.540 that for themselves
00:17:39.380 the thing that really animates
00:17:40.740 and that's the why
00:17:41.640 of their life
00:17:42.300 and then they can put up
00:17:43.580 with all sorts of different
00:17:44.960 hows in terms of
00:17:46.460 how they live
00:17:47.440 and the circumstances
00:17:48.340 in which they live
00:17:49.200 do you think our
00:17:50.440 frictionless digital world
00:17:52.420 offers substitutes
00:17:53.760 for Nietzschean goals
00:17:55.180 that kind of distract us
00:17:56.520 from actually going after
00:17:57.660 those type of goals
00:17:58.400 I think it can
00:18:00.180 but I'm not a total pessimist
00:18:02.540 I think technology
00:18:03.800 can serve
00:18:04.840 these kinds of creative goals
00:18:06.480 as a writer myself
00:18:08.000 you know
00:18:08.520 I found that digital technology
00:18:10.200 has made
00:18:11.100 you know
00:18:11.960 been hugely productive
00:18:12.900 for me in terms of writing
00:18:14.580 and I may need to spend
00:18:16.760 more time
00:18:17.920 in front of a screen
00:18:19.380 in order to do
00:18:20.700 kind of creative
00:18:21.660 and interesting things
00:18:22.720 that I want to do
00:18:24.220 but I think it is too easy
00:18:27.120 because of the engineering
00:18:28.280 that goes into these things
00:18:29.660 that are so designed
00:18:31.500 to capture our attention
00:18:33.000 and usually then
00:18:34.200 to monetize it
00:18:35.320 that there is often
00:18:36.900 a danger
00:18:37.500 that digital technology
00:18:39.420 today
00:18:40.000 will try and do that
00:18:41.800 to your life
00:18:42.580 and that you'll end up
00:18:43.700 giving it
00:18:44.440 more of your attention
00:18:45.980 than it deserves
00:18:46.880 so it doesn't have
00:18:48.640 to be that way
00:18:49.400 I mean
00:18:49.840 nobody's making you
00:18:51.060 sign up for Facebook
00:18:52.940 or play addictive
00:18:54.680 mobile games
00:18:55.780 or leave all your
00:18:57.120 notifications on
00:18:58.180 so you're constantly
00:18:58.980 being pinged
00:18:59.820 by text message
00:19:00.760 alarms
00:19:01.680 we've collaborated
00:19:04.020 in allowing that
00:19:05.020 to happen
00:19:05.520 the technology itself
00:19:07.280 can go in lots
00:19:08.640 of different ways
00:19:09.480 as long as we're
00:19:10.400 mindful about it
00:19:11.280 and sort of
00:19:11.600 take charge of it
00:19:12.700 instead of letting it
00:19:13.740 take charge of us
00:19:14.900 we're going to take a quick
00:19:16.460 break for your word
00:19:17.100 from our sponsors
00:19:17.720 and now back
00:19:20.440 to the show
00:19:21.460 so one thing
00:19:22.800 you talk about
00:19:23.380 in the book
00:19:23.860 is that figuring out
00:19:24.800 what your
00:19:25.380 Nietzschean goals
00:19:26.780 are going to be
00:19:27.120 these existential goals
00:19:28.260 that are going to give you
00:19:28.820 meaning in life
00:19:29.780 it requires you
00:19:31.640 to listen to your
00:19:33.360 inner voice
00:19:33.920 but as you make the case
00:19:35.880 the flood of information
00:19:36.900 that we encounter
00:19:37.560 from our digital devices
00:19:39.200 can drown out
00:19:40.820 that inner voice
00:19:41.760 Nietzsche
00:19:42.820 you look to Nietzsche
00:19:43.480 for this
00:19:43.780 he might have some ideas
00:19:44.720 Nietzsche wasn't a fan
00:19:46.320 of asceticism
00:19:47.220 he thought that was
00:19:48.000 too extreme
00:19:49.280 he didn't like people
00:19:50.700 who just like fasted
00:19:51.660 and wore sackcloths
00:19:52.680 he thought that was
00:19:53.880 life negating
00:19:54.920 they were denying life
00:19:56.500 but you argue
00:19:57.500 there's a type of
00:19:58.280 Nietzschean asceticism
00:19:59.380 that can be useful
00:20:01.040 in managing
00:20:01.800 information overload
00:20:02.840 what does that look like?
00:20:04.740 Right
00:20:04.960 so he's against
00:20:06.020 these sort of
00:20:06.720 ascetic attitudes
00:20:07.860 when he feels like
00:20:10.140 they're saying
00:20:11.320 no to life
00:20:12.500 when you're actually
00:20:13.260 trying to
00:20:14.160 limit yourself
00:20:15.480 in the world
00:20:15.980 you're trying to
00:20:16.500 limit your intake
00:20:17.360 of food
00:20:18.000 etc
00:20:19.060 but just for the purpose
00:20:20.720 of saying that
00:20:21.500 life itself is bad
00:20:23.280 and I want to come
00:20:24.020 as close to death
00:20:25.180 as I can
00:20:26.360 if that's the attitude
00:20:27.880 Nietzsche wants
00:20:28.740 nothing to do
00:20:29.380 with it
00:20:29.720 but there's another
00:20:30.880 kind of restriction
00:20:31.980 and asceticism
00:20:33.500 that he's forced
00:20:34.840 to admit is actually
00:20:35.820 a very good thing
00:20:36.900 and in fact
00:20:37.400 is required to live
00:20:39.360 it's the sort of
00:20:40.420 restriction
00:20:41.000 the limits
00:20:42.140 the asceticism
00:20:43.520 that actually
00:20:44.380 serves life
00:20:45.380 and says yes
00:20:46.440 to life
00:20:47.280 so
00:20:48.380 he's got a great
00:20:49.620 quote where he says
00:20:50.520 noise murders
00:20:52.080 thought
00:20:52.660 and
00:20:53.660 I found that
00:20:55.420 to be true
00:20:55.900 in my life
00:20:56.540 and so
00:20:57.580 he advocates
00:20:59.060 for learning
00:20:59.800 to say no
00:21:00.760 to many things
00:21:01.800 including
00:21:02.280 information
00:21:03.540 you know
00:21:04.260 as somebody
00:21:04.860 who was himself
00:21:05.680 a professor
00:21:06.420 he felt
00:21:07.680 the information
00:21:08.320 overload
00:21:08.800 that we experience
00:21:09.740 now
00:21:10.220 in a similar way
00:21:11.740 he talks about
00:21:12.460 how overwhelmed
00:21:13.220 he felt
00:21:13.900 by history
00:21:15.020 by books
00:21:15.760 by libraries
00:21:16.900 by all that was
00:21:17.660 before him
00:21:18.220 and this was
00:21:19.000 130
00:21:20.100 140 years ago
00:21:21.220 so I think
00:21:22.540 things have only
00:21:23.060 gotten worse
00:21:23.620 for us
00:21:24.220 and what he saw
00:21:25.480 was only
00:21:26.160 an infinite
00:21:27.000 lifespan
00:21:27.700 could truly
00:21:28.860 say yes
00:21:29.760 to everything
00:21:30.520 that's out there
00:21:31.220 could embrace
00:21:32.180 every book
00:21:32.980 could watch
00:21:33.620 every movie
00:21:34.360 on Netflix
00:21:34.940 you know
00:21:35.780 could read
00:21:36.380 every text message
00:21:37.500 that comes in
00:21:38.300 we don't have
00:21:39.620 an infinite
00:21:39.980 lifespan
00:21:40.380 so
00:21:41.320 we can say
00:21:42.600 a no
00:21:43.280 we can create
00:21:44.340 a boundary line
00:21:45.580 in our existence
00:21:46.460 to rule things
00:21:47.460 out
00:21:47.880 in order to say
00:21:49.460 yes
00:21:49.920 to life
00:21:50.520 live more fully
00:21:51.560 in order not
00:21:52.520 to be overwhelmed
00:21:53.500 by this information
00:21:54.580 that just piles up
00:21:56.240 all around us
00:21:57.280 so Nietzsche
00:21:58.340 talks about this
00:21:59.080 in terms of
00:22:00.000 nutrition
00:22:00.940 as a metaphor
00:22:01.620 he comes back to
00:22:02.600 and in the book
00:22:03.140 I call this
00:22:03.780 a slow information
00:22:05.180 diet
00:22:05.720 so he talks
00:22:07.420 about our need
00:22:08.040 to do four things
00:22:10.200 first
00:22:11.100 slow down
00:22:12.320 our acquisition
00:22:13.400 of information
00:22:14.280 read more slowly
00:22:16.580 watch more carefully
00:22:18.360 listen
00:22:19.040 more carefully
00:22:20.640 in order to
00:22:21.660 pay attention
00:22:22.540 to what's being
00:22:23.840 said
00:22:24.640 or played
00:22:25.300 or performed
00:22:26.060 and the second
00:22:26.980 thing is to
00:22:27.740 really ruminate
00:22:29.020 on information
00:22:29.900 re-read
00:22:31.060 re-watch
00:22:31.940 re-listen
00:22:32.700 let things
00:22:33.260 sink in
00:22:34.400 digest them
00:22:35.320 focus on them
00:22:36.220 in order to
00:22:37.420 turn things
00:22:38.300 into wisdom
00:22:39.940 within our minds
00:22:41.180 and our bodies
00:22:42.000 always moving on
00:22:43.340 to something novel
00:22:44.200 may prevent that
00:22:45.600 the third thing
00:22:47.100 is stop
00:22:48.680 information intake
00:22:49.820 completely
00:22:50.540 at certain times
00:22:52.080 in order to
00:22:52.700 create space
00:22:53.920 for our own
00:22:54.920 thoughts
00:22:55.540 to digest
00:22:56.980 this kind of
00:22:57.680 material
00:22:58.120 to think about
00:22:59.000 our own way
00:22:59.580 forward
00:23:00.020 and the fourth
00:23:01.580 thing is
00:23:02.240 maybe we actually
00:23:03.900 need to forget
00:23:04.860 some information
00:23:05.900 so that it
00:23:06.920 doesn't build up
00:23:07.960 around us
00:23:08.580 like garbage
00:23:09.300 like so that we
00:23:10.560 can clear a
00:23:11.460 mental path
00:23:12.460 through these
00:23:13.560 things that
00:23:14.160 don't serve
00:23:14.940 us in life
00:23:15.640 this is not
00:23:17.040 the promise
00:23:18.240 I think it's
00:23:19.240 fair to say
00:23:19.840 of digital
00:23:20.640 technology
00:23:21.300 which has
00:23:21.760 basically become
00:23:22.720 archive everything
00:23:24.220 you know
00:23:25.040 keep all
00:23:25.660 information
00:23:26.220 never forget
00:23:27.060 make it easily
00:23:27.860 accessible to
00:23:28.660 anyone at
00:23:29.340 any time
00:23:29.860 anywhere
00:23:30.480 and Nietzsche
00:23:31.760 might say
00:23:32.380 well that's
00:23:33.220 great but at
00:23:33.860 least we as
00:23:34.560 humans have
00:23:35.740 to draw real
00:23:36.680 boundaries
00:23:37.260 around how
00:23:38.860 much of that
00:23:39.620 we're going to
00:23:40.780 spend our
00:23:41.480 lives working
00:23:42.440 with consuming
00:23:43.940 listening to
00:23:45.060 because if we
00:23:45.900 don't it
00:23:46.900 creates anxiety
00:23:48.580 it prevents us
00:23:49.620 from thinking
00:23:50.380 it prevents us
00:23:51.180 from hearing
00:23:51.540 our own voice
00:23:52.760 and so digital
00:23:54.400 technology has got
00:23:55.280 a real role to
00:23:56.060 play in that
00:23:56.640 and we need to
00:23:57.640 manage information
00:23:58.500 just like we do
00:23:59.280 food too much
00:24:00.360 and too little
00:24:01.260 might both kill
00:24:02.100 us
00:24:02.440 well yeah
00:24:03.220 it's an upstream
00:24:04.180 battle because
00:24:05.120 digital technology
00:24:05.940 the way the
00:24:07.120 you know media
00:24:08.040 digital media is
00:24:09.140 organized is that
00:24:09.940 it encourages fast
00:24:11.040 reading and
00:24:12.140 skimming in fact
00:24:12.860 you're seeing
00:24:13.360 this trend
00:24:14.160 I think Axios
00:24:15.560 the website
00:24:16.460 they're they're
00:24:17.540 sort of
00:24:17.780 standardizing this
00:24:18.600 like very
00:24:19.260 skimmable reading
00:24:20.560 format now
00:24:21.200 where it's just
00:24:21.560 like bullet
00:24:21.960 points and
00:24:23.140 like you're
00:24:23.460 seeing other
00:24:23.840 websites adopt
00:24:24.880 this this
00:24:25.540 format you see
00:24:27.020 the digital
00:24:27.500 technology the
00:24:28.200 algorithms put a
00:24:29.000 premium on
00:24:29.500 novelty you only
00:24:30.660 see new stuff
00:24:31.520 typically you
00:24:32.580 never see stuff
00:24:33.420 you know gets
00:24:34.060 percolated from
00:24:34.860 the archives from
00:24:35.620 10 years ago
00:24:36.400 so you have to
00:24:37.520 actually intentionally
00:24:38.320 decide you know
00:24:39.060 what I am going
00:24:40.280 to read slowly
00:24:41.620 I'm not going
00:24:42.120 to skim I'm
00:24:43.340 going to get
00:24:44.580 not just focus
00:24:45.340 on the new
00:24:45.760 stuff but really
00:24:46.640 focus on the
00:24:47.420 stuff that's old
00:24:48.760 that's stood the
00:24:49.740 test of time
00:24:50.400 like you have to
00:24:51.200 decide I'm going
00:24:51.740 to be intentional
00:24:52.200 about that
00:24:52.780 yeah intentionality
00:24:54.340 is at the core
00:24:55.520 of all this
00:24:56.220 because if you're
00:24:57.240 not intentional
00:24:58.140 the people who
00:24:59.420 create all these
00:25:00.240 digital systems
00:25:01.160 they were
00:25:02.220 intentional and
00:25:03.420 they have a goal
00:25:04.280 and it's to
00:25:05.040 capture your
00:25:05.560 attention usually
00:25:06.560 through novelty
00:25:08.100 outrage you
00:25:09.620 know things
00:25:09.940 that sort of
00:25:10.400 excite interest
00:25:11.380 and attention
00:25:11.980 that may not
00:25:13.500 you know a
00:25:14.180 steady diet of
00:25:15.160 that where that's
00:25:15.780 mostly what you
00:25:16.420 consume I think
00:25:17.940 it's pretty clear
00:25:18.640 by now that that
00:25:19.480 is not good for
00:25:20.240 us so without
00:25:22.140 intentionality you
00:25:23.000 give yourself over
00:25:23.920 to that so one
00:25:25.060 thing like a takeaway
00:25:25.740 from that read
00:25:26.520 slowly go ahead and
00:25:27.560 read those long
00:25:28.340 form articles take
00:25:29.380 your time with a
00:25:29.880 read an entire
00:25:30.540 book and then I
00:25:31.860 like the idea that
00:25:32.380 Nietzsche had like
00:25:32.960 have a library like
00:25:34.580 that's like four or
00:25:35.300 five books think
00:25:36.460 about like if I if
00:25:37.580 there was the
00:25:38.280 apocalypse and I
00:25:39.440 can only keep four
00:25:40.240 books with me what
00:25:41.320 would those four
00:25:41.780 books be and then
00:25:42.940 just read those over
00:25:44.160 and over again
00:25:44.720 throughout your life
00:25:45.420 and just chew on
00:25:46.240 it like I like how
00:25:47.280 you ruminate like
00:25:48.100 you're like a cow
00:25:49.120 chewing on its cut
00:25:49.940 over and over again
00:25:50.680 right so this is
00:25:52.360 sort of the desert
00:25:53.020 island books scenario
00:25:54.460 and yeah Nietzsche
00:25:55.780 loved this he said
00:25:56.740 at one point he only
00:25:57.640 had eight authors
00:25:58.500 that he read over
00:26:00.640 and over again
00:26:01.380 which you know was
00:26:02.340 clearly not true but
00:26:03.780 in his hyperbolic
00:26:04.900 fashion indicates what
00:26:06.780 he's getting at that
00:26:07.820 if there are books
00:26:09.260 or authors or
00:26:10.800 albums or movies
00:26:13.020 that have been
00:26:14.380 profoundly meaningful
00:26:15.840 to you and yet
00:26:17.400 you don't really go
00:26:18.660 back to them as much
00:26:19.620 as you'd really like
00:26:20.520 to because you're
00:26:21.060 always you know in
00:26:22.340 search of the new
00:26:23.240 I think maybe
00:26:24.240 something's being lost
00:26:25.260 there and that maybe
00:26:25.880 we'd gain more by
00:26:27.820 spending more time
00:26:29.100 returning to the
00:26:29.940 things that really
00:26:30.660 have this kind of
00:26:31.380 shaping quality on
00:26:33.160 our lives and
00:26:34.580 really incorporating
00:26:35.800 them into the way
00:26:36.620 we think and see
00:26:38.140 the world and
00:26:39.120 talk and so that's
00:26:41.000 what Nietzsche's
00:26:41.440 talking about there
00:26:42.340 let's talk about
00:26:43.900 Nietzsche's idea of
00:26:46.280 the role of the
00:26:47.360 physical body in a
00:26:49.120 flourishing life I
00:26:50.600 mean I think a lot
00:26:51.280 of philosophers it's
00:26:52.080 all in their head but
00:26:52.960 Nietzsche said that
00:26:53.820 was the wrong way to
00:26:55.500 look at a flourishing
00:26:56.260 life what role did
00:26:57.580 the body play in
00:26:58.680 Nietzsche's idea of
00:26:59.960 a flourishing happy
00:27:02.060 life it's interesting
00:27:04.960 that Nietzsche focuses
00:27:06.180 so much on the
00:27:07.580 physical and on the
00:27:08.520 body and the
00:27:09.200 importance of it
00:27:10.100 given how ill he was
00:27:12.180 much of his life and
00:27:13.660 in fact maybe that's
00:27:14.620 the reason for it that
00:27:15.800 that health life
00:27:17.500 motion seem more
00:27:19.020 precious to someone
00:27:20.000 who was often ill and
00:27:21.980 on his bed so
00:27:23.620 Nietzsche's big thing
00:27:24.460 is that the body
00:27:25.560 really matters it
00:27:27.120 doesn't just matter as
00:27:28.540 a way to move the
00:27:29.460 mind around right the
00:27:30.880 body's not the robot
00:27:32.300 and the brain is like
00:27:34.320 the controller
00:27:35.040 everything is
00:27:36.420 integrated Nietzsche
00:27:37.980 thinks that we think
00:27:39.140 through the body and
00:27:41.000 the emotions not just
00:27:42.740 with our reasoning
00:27:43.580 logical mind and in
00:27:45.420 fact he says several
00:27:46.920 times that the body
00:27:48.860 the emotions these kind
00:27:50.880 of the passions the
00:27:52.220 things that are not
00:27:52.920 always logical and
00:27:54.000 rational might be more
00:27:55.580 important to thinking
00:27:57.480 and here he means
00:27:58.320 broadly processing the
00:28:00.060 world around us than
00:28:01.580 those pure reasoning
00:28:02.820 logical minds he's
00:28:04.560 got this great quote
00:28:05.540 in Twilight of the
00:28:06.560 Idols where he says
00:28:07.440 that only ideas won by
00:28:09.520 walking have any
00:28:11.200 value and that was
00:28:12.840 something that he
00:28:13.460 lived out in his life
00:28:14.980 he wrote many of his
00:28:16.400 books while going on
00:28:17.820 long walks around
00:28:19.180 Switzerland and Italy
00:28:20.240 with small note cards
00:28:22.300 in which he jot down
00:28:23.360 aphorisms and thoughts
00:28:24.640 he found that was an
00:28:25.920 immense stimulus to
00:28:28.200 thought and that sitting
00:28:30.600 in a room sitting in
00:28:32.700 front of a typewriter or
00:28:34.080 with a page in front of
00:28:35.260 you and just trying to
00:28:36.040 come up with a book
00:28:37.020 out of your mind just
00:28:38.760 trying to think without
00:28:40.180 being mobile without
00:28:41.320 involving the body
00:28:42.540 didn't work for him and
00:28:44.540 I think that's borne out
00:28:45.940 today by psychology that
00:28:48.580 that we're seeing that
00:28:49.340 recognizes that there's
00:28:50.960 much more to us than
00:28:51.860 this kind of logical
00:28:52.740 reasoning faculty and
00:28:55.020 how does our digital
00:28:55.800 technology separate us
00:28:57.000 from our bodies well we
00:28:58.680 we just talked a bit
00:28:59.560 about about the
00:29:00.200 posture thing and I
00:29:01.160 keep coming back to
00:29:02.000 that because I think
00:29:02.800 of the stereotypical
00:29:04.500 you know what is
00:29:05.800 somebody with a screen
00:29:06.760 doing they're often
00:29:08.200 sitting on a couch
00:29:09.240 sitting on a chair or
00:29:10.820 they might be walking
00:29:11.600 down the sidewalk but
00:29:12.780 with their head down
00:29:14.080 so you're in very sort
00:29:17.320 of constricted
00:29:18.400 positions you're not
00:29:19.500 out and embracing and
00:29:21.520 even looking at the
00:29:22.680 world you're perceiving
00:29:24.140 reality increasingly
00:29:26.000 through sheets of glass
00:29:28.180 of different sizes
00:29:29.120 whether they're phones
00:29:30.100 tablets TVs that's a
00:29:32.880 hugely different
00:29:33.840 experience of life it's
00:29:36.240 a much more controlled
00:29:38.180 experience of life we
00:29:40.280 can control online
00:29:41.600 exactly where we go who
00:29:43.480 we interact with we can
00:29:44.920 close apps we can delete
00:29:46.860 emails we can block
00:29:48.240 people on Twitter but the
00:29:50.520 world itself is just not
00:29:52.140 quite that pliable and
00:29:54.260 many times that can be
00:29:55.380 frustrating but it's also
00:29:57.020 the source of many of the
00:29:58.260 most interesting things
00:29:59.500 that happen to us it's
00:30:01.480 the source of many of the
00:30:02.920 most serendipitous things
00:30:04.900 that happen to us things
00:30:05.740 that we didn't expect that
00:30:07.560 we encounter in a world we
00:30:09.780 don't fully control and so
00:30:12.240 Nietzsche is huge on using
00:30:14.640 the body thinking with the
00:30:17.120 body not just treating it as
00:30:19.780 you know a lesser adjunct to
00:30:22.900 the mind that both matter and
00:30:26.000 the kind of technology that
00:30:28.080 would stress one against the
00:30:30.240 other is perhaps not being
00:30:33.200 fully healthy so if there's a
00:30:34.880 way for us to use our
00:30:36.520 technology in ways that
00:30:37.720 encourage the use of the
00:30:39.740 body and the mind together
00:30:41.340 that's terrific but if we find
00:30:45.620 that our technology is pushing
00:30:47.680 us under the couch and we're
00:30:49.640 spending 18 hours a day staring
00:30:51.320 at a screen of some kind we
00:30:53.220 might start to suspect there's
00:30:55.120 there's a problem here
00:30:56.180 there's a writer that you
00:30:58.320 quote frequently in the book
00:30:59.960 and it's he we've had him on
00:31:01.000 the podcast before Matthew
00:31:01.960 Crawford yeah he's written and
00:31:03.880 thought a lot about this and I
00:31:05.880 love his idea that his idea of
00:31:07.940 embodied cognition like the
00:31:09.240 way you can really know
00:31:10.420 something is through the body
00:31:12.060 it's not just the mind it has
00:31:13.600 to be through the body and he
00:31:15.420 really hits home this idea that
00:31:16.580 one way that we gain knowledge
00:31:18.320 about something but also about
00:31:20.140 ourselves like the way we know
00:31:21.360 that we are ourself is when we
00:31:23.440 bump up against other selves or
00:31:26.360 other things that are not that
00:31:27.520 are not us and I feel like
00:31:29.080 oftentimes online there isn't
00:31:30.340 that boundary that hard
00:31:31.860 boundary and so it sometimes
00:31:33.820 you kind of get sort of lost in
00:31:36.160 this weird digital mass and you
00:31:38.480 you feel like you know but or
00:31:40.420 you're learning something but
00:31:41.880 you really aren't because you're
00:31:42.900 not bumping up against that that
00:31:45.300 friction in a physical way
00:31:47.420 sometimes yes online you know if
00:31:50.620 you live your life almost
00:31:51.620 completely online it can be a
00:31:54.580 good experience socially I mean
00:31:56.100 I've worked online for many
00:31:57.760 years I know many of my
00:31:59.140 colleagues very well we interact
00:32:00.820 digitally quite a bit but in in
00:32:03.720 many cases it leads to a certain
00:32:05.980 kind of solipsism where you're
00:32:08.040 you're in control you're sort of
00:32:10.140 gazing at yourself and the things
00:32:11.740 you've chosen to look at and being
00:32:13.960 in the real world being with real
00:32:15.700 other people physically just makes
00:32:18.460 that more difficult like in ways
00:32:20.560 that are frustrating but like you
00:32:22.440 said in ways that can be really
00:32:24.120 really fruitful for our
00:32:25.360 development as humans you know if we
00:32:27.620 think about you know embodied
00:32:30.460 cognition can tell us that doing
00:32:32.520 physical things over and over is a
00:32:35.880 way to learn about the world in a
00:32:37.360 really different way than just kind
00:32:38.760 of mental in a way of just typing
00:32:40.740 words on screens so I play guitar
00:32:43.460 that requires hundreds of hours of
00:32:45.760 practice but it's a very very
00:32:48.240 finely tuned physical discipline of
00:32:50.980 having your fingers know exactly
00:32:53.680 where this fret is landing on it at
00:32:56.600 exactly the right time that you have
00:32:58.160 to rehearse millions of times it's
00:33:01.000 that friction against the world
00:33:02.720 against getting it wrong refining your
00:33:05.420 results that ultimately train you in
00:33:08.600 these kinds of skills you cannot do some
00:33:12.520 of these things simply by using a
00:33:14.920 mouse a screen a cell phone there are
00:33:17.820 just limits to the type of thing that
00:33:20.020 you will experience so Nietzsche had
00:33:21.780 this idea of the Dionysian this comes
00:33:24.160 from the god Dionysus the wine god
00:33:26.220 Bacchus and it was all about chaos and
00:33:29.340 chance and risk and everything and I
00:33:33.460 think we've made the case that our
00:33:34.320 digital technology can eradicate the
00:33:36.240 Dionysian because like you have control
00:33:37.960 over it right you can completely
00:33:39.340 control how you present yourself
00:33:41.000 online who you interact with so how do
00:33:44.740 you think we can welcome the Dionysian
00:33:48.220 back in our tech infused lives
00:33:50.280 hmm yeah so this comes from Nietzsche's
00:33:54.180 early book the birth of tragedy in
00:33:57.020 which he talks about these two Greek
00:33:58.680 gods Apollo sun god who Nietzsche
00:34:02.420 associates with order reason rationality
00:34:05.540 structure control and a certain kind of
00:34:08.320 controlled detachment from the world
00:34:11.680 that creates and shapes but maybe
00:34:13.860 doesn't lose itself in the moment the
00:34:17.320 Dionysian coming from Dionysus the god
00:34:19.780 of wine is in the moment it's almost
00:34:22.540 orgiastic it's physical it's passionate
00:34:25.800 it's sensual it's today we might use the
00:34:29.600 word mindful it's not trapped thinking
00:34:32.940 about the past and the future it is in
00:34:35.660 the present and experiencing the world
00:34:37.700 now so Nietzsche doesn't say that we all
00:34:42.680 need to become Dionysian what he says is
00:34:46.120 that our culture has become too
00:34:48.960 Apollonian that we are too in love with
00:34:52.160 control order reason structure detachment
00:34:55.760 and that we need this kind of balance you
00:34:58.940 you know and I think when you pair this
00:35:01.640 up with what technology promises us
00:35:04.700 it's usually much more Apollonian not
00:35:08.620 exclusively but when you think about the
00:35:10.980 promises of technology to give you more
00:35:13.640 control over your smart home over your
00:35:16.500 health over your life over you know the
00:35:20.040 map you will have always with you so you
00:35:21.860 will never get lost right everything about
00:35:24.380 the world that was kind of wild and
00:35:26.040 unconstrained and sometimes very difficult
00:35:28.320 becomes much more ordered controlled
00:35:31.380 rational so how do we seek out this less
00:35:35.980 controlled thing you know I'm not sure we
00:35:40.780 can always do it with and in our technology
00:35:44.900 I think what our technology is telling us
00:35:49.460 as we pay attention to this dynamic is that
00:35:52.220 we may need to seek these sort of Dionysian
00:35:55.800 things outside of the technological world and
00:35:58.900 that's where this return to the physical to
00:36:01.580 walking like Nietzsche did playing a musical
00:36:05.000 instrument board gaming going to religious
00:36:08.240 services going to rock concerts right going
00:36:11.000 to yoga classes these are the sorts of things
00:36:14.600 that immerse us in present physical experiences
00:36:19.140 they get us out of our minds which often lean to
00:36:22.720 the past and the future they keep us in the
00:36:25.120 present and they give us a moment and an
00:36:27.580 experience and something physical and tangible
00:36:30.120 so if you can experience that using your physical
00:36:33.940 devices as aids more power to you but I think
00:36:37.740 they often push us to the kind of life where we
00:36:41.100 feel most comfortable when we're fully in control
00:36:44.560 and we're often you know in that controlled state
00:36:48.480 we're often thinking about things we did in the
00:36:51.120 past or worrying about things we're going to do
00:36:52.960 in the future and Nietzsche calls us to break out
00:36:56.200 of that well yeah I think we I feel like we we think
00:36:59.260 we want to control everything but once we get it we
00:37:01.780 actually realize this doesn't actually make us
00:37:04.000 happy and it made me think I think there's a
00:37:06.100 twilight zone episode that really captured this it's
00:37:09.260 uh the one a nice place to visit where the gambler
00:37:12.020 character dies and he goes to what is he thinks is
00:37:15.420 heaven and like he's winning every you know
00:37:18.260 craps games he plays roulette uh he's got all these
00:37:21.160 nice clothes at first he thinks it's great then
00:37:24.120 after a while he's like this this stinks and then he
00:37:27.100 realizes he's not in heaven he's in hell and he
00:37:29.280 ought to do this he'll just have to win every his life's
00:37:31.280 going to be great for forever and it just he it made
00:37:34.480 him miserable and but what's funny is like he
00:37:36.680 asked like well or like this his guide was like well
00:37:39.780 we can make you lose sometimes if you want that'll make
00:37:42.220 you happy and he's like no like I know that like I know
00:37:44.940 that I'd be losing on purpose like you guys would be in
00:37:47.180 control of that so it's not the same and I I've heard this
00:37:50.440 discussion about control and lack of control being
00:37:55.040 discussed with the metaverse like this idea is like well
00:37:58.160 can if we want to kind of make it fun we have to make it
00:38:00.960 unpredictable make it feel like people don't have control
00:38:03.980 but it's like wait well if if people know you are kind of
00:38:07.660 injecting chaos on purpose then it's not the same like it
00:38:10.900 philosophically it doesn't it doesn't have that same
00:38:13.700 effect of knowing that it's completely random and out of
00:38:16.140 your hands because you know that someone is actually
00:38:18.660 controlling the uncontrollability does that make
00:38:22.800 sense yeah it's just a different layer of control
00:38:24.920 right right and and it gets to the question of do we
00:38:28.220 ultimately want that kind of control that's what technology
00:38:30.920 has always promised us right we control over the weather
00:38:34.580 bridges give us control over you know crossing rivers on
00:38:39.060 and on technology always helps us control these forces that
00:38:42.560 have dominated human life for millennia but I it does seem like
00:38:47.320 we're coming to a place where we are in such control of our
00:38:50.520 lives that sometimes we look around and say you know maybe I
00:38:55.360 don't actually know what the best thing is from and this is
00:38:59.680 where testing yourself against the world and striving in it you
00:39:04.020 know in all its unpredictability and sometimes frustration and
00:39:07.300 sometimes futility may ultimately be more rewarding than having the
00:39:12.320 kind of lifestyle where you're talking about where someone is just
00:39:16.160 totally in control of everything they do the unpredictability has been
00:39:19.980 sanded off life is is very safe it's very easy but it's also fairly
00:39:26.340 predictable you know I'm not sure I want to live in a world in which I
00:39:30.300 know and control everything that's going to happen to me
00:39:32.820 no I don't either I don't either and I think we said throughout this
00:39:36.620 conversation you're not against technology I wouldn't say Nietzsche's
00:39:39.380 was against technology in fact he used one of the first typewriters ever
00:39:43.020 invented it's like this ball thing with like keys on top of the ball is
00:39:46.400 really weird and he actually he actually noted that the typewriter
00:39:50.480 changed his writing style it made it a little more punchy which I think is
00:39:54.180 interesting so how do we figure out what role tech will have in our life
00:39:59.700 without turning us into these sort of blinking potato head last men right well
00:40:06.160 I don't think we can go back and I'm not I'm certainly not calling for us to go
00:40:10.620 back I don't see very many people who are even as they're identifying these
00:40:14.060 problems you know Nietzsche himself has a great quote where he says we are
00:40:19.700 faltering but we must not let it make us afraid and perhaps surrender the new
00:40:25.040 things we've gained moreover we cannot return to the old we've burned our boats
00:40:30.300 all that remains for us is to be brave let happen what may let us only go forward
00:40:36.280 and I think that's the situation we're in I wouldn't give up the very useful ease
00:40:44.080 control comfort that technology has brought to human life I mean you have only to
00:40:48.180 look at places in the world that completely lack those things and and
00:40:52.640 desire them greatly to think the goal here is not getting rid of all that but
00:40:57.700 it is to find a way to move forward that works works with human life that's
00:41:02.180 helping us serve life I think Nietzsche's answer to that is going back to those
00:41:08.220 Nietzschean goals that help us find and create meaning that help us advance the
00:41:14.020 frontiers of what it means to be human even in small ways in our own lives in
00:41:18.580 our own communities right this cannot mean that everybody is the world's
00:41:23.560 greatest artist or a great states person or whatever these can be very small
00:41:29.620 things but what's always involved is forward movement and I think if we look at
00:41:35.760 our lives and we say is technology serving as a distraction as a time
00:41:41.480 filter as a source of information overload as something that keeps us apart from
00:41:46.360 the physical world then insofar as it does that there are problems but we can
00:41:53.080 also say is it or could it be an enabler of creative struggle of self
00:41:58.940 overcoming of connection with the world of enforcing the limits that that actually
00:42:03.820 help us to live and I think it can be there are ways to do that with
00:42:09.460 technology but they require intention and this is why I don't think some of the
00:42:15.500 discussions around these issues I think are a little simplistic and what you end
00:42:19.620 up with are what I call in the book tech tips you know things like just put your
00:42:24.420 phone in a basket when you come in the room or you know only two hours of screen
00:42:29.600 time per day but with and these kind of tips are often divorced from thinking about
00:42:35.100 what do I really need out of life and what's the best way to get there because
00:42:39.320 I think there are situations in which you need more technology to do certain
00:42:43.080 things so I think if we keep the goals in mind that when we have time and space to
00:42:50.580 reflect on our lives we think this feels meaningful to me and I'm going to take a
00:42:55.040 shot at it and then I'm going to see what the next step is from there that's
00:42:59.080 going to be better for us than retreating from that difficult responsibility and
00:43:05.080 letting these tech companies and their services kind of overwhelm our attention
00:43:09.280 take it captive fill it and eventually we find that our lives have been reduced to
00:43:15.980 touching or watching screens of glass and I think we're going to find that that's
00:43:21.200 not ultimately the best thing for us or for the world for me like the heuristic is
00:43:27.080 it's not a tip but it's sort of a guiding principle when I know I have a
00:43:31.700 healthy relationship with a technology is is if it encourages me to to be creative
00:43:38.260 to get out in the real world and do things I think it's great you know if
00:43:41.040 people watch YouTube they watch some guy you know building like a I don't know
00:43:45.460 like doing survival skills on YouTube yeah it doesn't just stop there but they
00:43:49.320 actually go out and start trying to do this that stuff themselves like I think
00:43:52.660 that's a great example of technology being life-affirming and encouraging
00:43:56.040 creativity the same goes for like different digital communication apps
00:44:00.520 whether it's Facebook or discord or whatever whatever you want to use I feel
00:44:05.360 like if as long as it encourages people to get together and do this stuff like do
00:44:09.120 things in person then that's healthy like I think it's that can be a really
00:44:12.820 great way to incorporate technology in your life right and for as much as we hear
00:44:17.820 negatively about sites like YouTube and the way that the algorithms might push
00:44:22.120 people toward extremist content etc I agree a hundred percent with what you
00:44:26.880 said I mean YouTube is one of the best sites out there for learning new sort of
00:44:32.440 physical skills I mean I've used it to do all sorts of things involving
00:44:36.840 construction I learned how to fix bike brakes for my kids bikes I mean I have
00:44:42.440 learned a bajillion things from YouTube that would be very hard to demonstrate
00:44:46.140 just through a book and have pushed me back into the physical world with new
00:44:51.820 skills and that were very satisfying to use and execute and that seeing
00:44:56.600 somebody do them was hugely beneficial for so I absolutely agree that if we take
00:45:02.460 control as much as we can of this technology if we're mindful about what
00:45:06.860 we're trying to do these things can be powerful enablers of the kinds of things
00:45:11.720 we've been talking about and that it's you know moving forward in this way is not
00:45:16.220 necessarily some kind of total retreat from technology well Nate this has been a
00:45:21.300 great conversation where can people go to learn more about the book in your work
00:45:24.160 so I work for Ars Technica we're a Condé Nast publication that writes about
00:45:29.720 science and technology so they can see my work there or the book is called in
00:45:34.140 emergency break glass and you can get it at any fine bookseller
00:45:39.280 fantastic well Nate Anderson thanks for your time it's been a pleasure
00:45:42.160 thanks so much my guest today was Nate Anderson he's the author of the book in
00:45:47.020 emergency break glass what Nietzsche can teach us about joyful living in a tech
00:45:50.560 saturated world it's available on amazon.com and bookstores everywhere check
00:45:53.840 out our show notes at aom.is break glass we can find links to resources we can delve
00:45:57.360 deeper into this topic
00:45:58.280 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast make sure to check out our website at
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