The Art of Manliness - What's Causing the Male Friendship Recession？

00:00:00.000 brett mckay here and welcome to another edition of the art of manliness podcast according to a

00:00:11.260 recent survey the percentage of men with at least six close friends has fallen by half since 1990

00:00:15.500 and men today are five times more likely to say they don't even have a single close friend than

00:00:19.760 they were 30 years ago what are the reasons for this seeming friendship recession among men today

00:00:24.040 i talked to the man who conducted that survey to try to find out his name is daniel cox and he's

00:00:27.780 the director of the survey center on american life today on the show daniel takes on a tour of the

00:00:31.520 state of friendship among modern american men beginning with the fact that men today have

00:00:35.000 fewer friends and feel less emotionally connected than ones they do have we explore the irony that

00:00:39.340 while people have long said that traditional norms of masculinity are what's holding men back from

00:00:43.120 having fulfilling relationships it's younger men who are more progressive on those norms who are

00:00:46.680 struggling the most to make friends daniel talks about the fact that the male friendship recession

00:00:50.280 isn't pandemic related but rather seems to be linked to the weakening of ties to community

00:00:53.860 institutions like church the changing nature of work and the fact that americans are spending more

00:00:57.640 and more time with their families from there we go down a bunch of interesting avenues including

00:01:01.140 the fact that husbands rely more on their wives for emotional support than vice versa why daniel

00:01:05.100 finds it concerning that young men today are more likely to first talk about their problems with

00:01:08.600 their parents rather than with their friends than was true 30 years ago and the irony that single

00:01:12.540 men are struggling the most to make friends even though they need them the most out of the show

00:01:16.100 is over check out our show notes at aom.is friendship recession all right daniel cox welcome to the show

00:01:32.180 thanks for having me so you did a recent survey for the survey center on american life and it was

00:01:37.760 about friendship and you found that americans overall have fewer friends than they did a few decades ago

00:01:43.840 but where things get really interesting is how things break down across gender lines

00:01:47.440 how does this decline compare in men versus women like what are the numbers there yeah so we look back

00:01:53.460 over about three decades and one of the things we did with this poll is we looked at what the gallup

00:01:59.600 survey had done in 1990 that was the one of the most recent times they had done a survey on friendship

00:02:05.020 it's it's not a topic that gets polled a lot and we looked at the numbers there we replicated some of

00:02:10.460 their questions and we found really massive declines in the number of close friends that the americans

00:02:16.620 reported having so in 1990 55 of men had at least six close friends so six or more and in our latest poll

00:02:25.360 only 27 about half as many had that many friends that's great and was the decline in women as stark 1.00

00:02:31.120 no it was there was a decline it was a double-digit decline from 41 down to 24

00:02:37.220 but not nearly as stark as as for the men the other thing is looking at the other side we found

00:02:44.280 that 15 of men today have no close friends including about one in five young men and so that's really

00:02:53.060 set out to us so they have no one who they feel no friends who they feel really close to what was

00:02:58.380 that number like in 1990 only three percent so you know a five-fold increase over that time period

00:03:04.040 okay and we'll talk some more like what we think is going on with the decline in number of friends

00:03:08.680 but the other thing the survey hit it was that not only do men have fewer friends than they did in 1990

00:03:15.240 but they report being less emotionally connected to the friends they do have and so we've had guests

00:03:20.900 on the podcast researchers who studied friendship male friendship in particular and this idea of

00:03:26.660 emotional connectivity they they think they some argument they've made is that it's maybe it's not that

00:03:31.320 useful because men and women they socialize differently right men tend to do things more

00:03:37.860 shoulder to shoulder based around an activity women have more of that face-to-face emotional 0.99

00:03:43.080 connection and so comparing male and female friends isn't useful isn't it isn't it isn't a fair comparison

00:03:49.920 so i mean does it matter if men aren't as emotionally connected to their friends if they as long as they have

00:03:55.960 friends yeah so i have i have some thoughts on this and particularly as a father i'm raising two boys

00:04:02.200 a three-year-old and a five-year-old and thinking about their social development their their friendships

00:04:06.940 and and what i want for them and while i understand like that's a that's a common idea that you know we

00:04:13.440 shouldn't compare and and there's just some differences there i think that it misses the mark

00:04:19.220 a bit and you know this idea that men and women somehow need different things from their friends

00:04:24.720 is is not quite right i think both men and women benefit when they have close intimate relationships

00:04:31.100 with their friends in our survey in fact both men and women were less likely to feel alone to feel

00:04:35.940 depressed or anxious when they when they had that kind of emotional support from their friends

00:04:40.340 so it matters and you know men and women are equally likely to to want these things

00:04:45.500 and we know this that just men seek it out more from the women in their life than the men so men

00:04:52.680 with female friends are more likely to have emotional support and to get emotional support from their

00:04:57.060 friends and we know that married men are much more likely to lean on their spouse whereas married women

00:05:03.220 will lean on their spouse but also look to their their friendship network to support them and so

00:05:09.380 i think there's this really interesting argument that my former colleague arthur brooks makes and i think

00:05:15.340 he makes it quite persuasively when he when he argues that you know what makes all of us happy is is

00:05:20.600 having a stable affection mutual understanding and commitment and this is what the best research tells

00:05:26.460 us and i think you know he was talking in terms of romantic relationships but it's true for for

00:05:32.180 friendships as well good friendships can offer all these things and so you know i think to argue that

00:05:37.400 that men somehow don't need this and don't need to make these kind of emotional or intimate connections

00:05:41.840 i just i kind of categorically reject it i i think that men are are perfectly capable of expressing

00:05:49.300 and experiencing the entire array of human emotions we're just socialized in ways you know to make us

00:05:53.860 think it's unnecessary or it feels uncomfortable and we'll get into more like where men get that

00:05:58.900 emotional support uh as you mentioned usually it's women some sort of woman whether it's family member 1.00

00:06:03.420 or their wife but i mean another argument i've heard is that one of the reasons men struggle more

00:06:08.320 than women to make friends because you know there's an idea of traditional masculinity that 1.00

00:06:12.860 prevents them from doing so like the idea that men shouldn't be vulnerable and that's what's keeping

00:06:17.160 them from making friends did the survey reveal anything that either supports or calls into question

00:06:21.200 that hypothesis yeah i know i think this is a really interesting and and perhaps a bit of a thorny

00:06:26.340 question you know when i look at my social media feed in response to this you know i i see liberals

00:06:31.740 and conservatives kind of lining up in different camps i think conservatives would argue that that modern

00:06:37.820 culture has has you know feminized men in ways that makes it more difficult for men to engage in

00:06:42.560 in traditionally masculine activities or pastimes there are fewer all-male spaces and in societally

00:06:48.760 we're sort of less accepting of men getting together and doing this kind of thing i don't find that

00:06:54.100 terribly convincing you know and liberals conversely argue that you know it is this idea of toxic masculinity

00:07:00.700 and that's the root of the problem men are socialized to avoid showing affection particularly to other

00:07:05.620 men and that stops them from forming more intimate connections with their male friends and i think

00:07:10.560 there's something there although it's not the entire story from an early age it's well known that that

00:07:15.900 women are socialized to be more nurturing and relationship oriented than men and men are taught to perceive

00:07:21.380 intimacy with other men as you know effeminate or weak or unmanly and then perhaps unnecessary and i think

00:07:27.540 homophobia probably plays a role in here somewhere and i think you know it's also true that notions of

00:07:33.520 of masculinity reduce the range of even accepted activities that men can engage with you know

00:07:38.340 when two men are going out to dinner together one-on-one we think about it differently than if

00:07:43.360 it's a man and a woman or two two women getting together and we've even developed some you know kind

00:07:48.080 of derogatory terminology to describe it you know it's a mandate but i don't know so like i look back

00:07:54.580 so i've studied like looked at male friendship for a long time like my grandfather okay so if you're born

00:07:59.880 after 1980 you seemingly grew up in a period where there was sort of a more of a progressive ideal

00:08:04.960 of masculinity and so you kind of got away from those traditional norms right you learned about

00:08:09.240 like you're steeped in this stuff about being vulnerable sharing your feelings etc etc and you

00:08:14.520 think that would help men have more friends today but like we have less friends than our grandfathers

00:08:19.140 who you know they were steeped in like traditional ideas of masculinity or even like our great-grandfathers

00:08:24.560 i mean man if you go back to like the 19th century you see these letters between men man friends and

00:08:30.280 it was like almost like a romance letter so i don't know i mean so what do you think is going on there

00:08:34.380 like i i see that i'm like well we're seemingly more progressive about what it means to be a man but

00:08:39.020 like we're still have we have worse problems making friends than our grandfathers or great-grandfathers

00:08:44.540 yeah i think that's that's totally right and it's one of the things where i would you know not think

00:08:50.620 that this is the entire entire story here and why i preface that you know my comments there you know

00:08:56.200 looking at our data if you look at how younger men identify in terms of their masculinity they're

00:09:03.120 less likely to identify as traditionally masculine but it's younger men who struggle most

00:09:07.540 informing and maintaining friendships so this idea that you know if we could just fix you know culturally

00:09:14.820 this idea of toxic masculinity things would suddenly be better i think is not the entire story and i think

00:09:20.180 we have to look to the institutions the ways that in the places men made friends right whether it's

00:09:26.840 church or you know local civic uh engagement all the different ways people can meet like one of the

00:09:33.520 interesting things in our polls we found that people are most likely to make close friends now at work

00:09:37.720 not through existing friends not in their neighborhood it's it's the workplace and you know there used to be

00:09:45.740 you know a really vibrant locally focused sort of community that people could go into engage with

00:09:52.980 people who are friends with their neighbors i think that that all this this kind of decline is playing

00:09:58.060 a role in our ability to to create and maintain friendships i want to talk about the work component

00:10:04.140 in a bit here because also i think the the pandemic and the whole work from home thing has probably

00:10:08.280 thrown a wrench in that but another thing we we've heard is in researches that researchers are found is that

00:10:14.500 women tend to be more willing to put in the effort and cultivation and maintenance of friendships 1.00

00:10:19.080 more than men are but do we know why that is i mean were you able to find anything out there with

00:10:22.960 your survey yeah i mean we didn't look at that specifically i i do think it's true that the poll

00:10:29.140 found that men are engaged in and sort of activity-based friendships like they they have a lot of these

00:10:34.700 friends whether it's online you know we asked about online playing video games like younger men are much

00:10:39.640 more likely to do this than just about anyone but one of the one of the issues there i think is is

00:10:44.580 particularly when you when you're thinking about you know you know getting together for sports or

00:10:48.320 hobbies you know hunting all that stuff requires a lot of time and planning and logistics much more

00:10:54.600 so than just picking up the phone so you know the more intimate communication-based relationships that

00:10:59.400 women are nurturing when their friends are probably just easier to maintain it's just different if 1.00

00:11:04.040 you're if you're sort of saying hey you know we've got to get together around doing a certain

00:11:07.400 activity i mean first and foremost the person has to live relatively close by and you know given how

00:11:12.560 far flung we've all become i think that just that creates an added hurdle well let's talk about that

00:11:18.280 the role of geographic mobility so that's one dynamic we've heard might be playing in a role

00:11:23.640 in the friendship recession amongst men but i mean the one thing i've heard maybe you find confines

00:11:28.940 maybe your survey found something different is that compared to previous generations millennials

00:11:33.700 millennials are moving less so you think okay if they're moving less they're able to establish some

00:11:38.780 sort of routes they're able to make friends so geographic mobility doesn't play a role but did

00:11:43.860 your survey find anything different yeah so i think that's right so you know geographic mobility we

00:11:49.880 know it's harmful to establishing and maintaining social connections right but if you move a lot

00:11:55.500 and any you know kid who moved around a lot growing up knows this you know you know deep down right

00:12:02.320 like that it's really hard to maintain friendships if you're moving around a lot it's probably less so

00:12:06.980 than it once was with the rise of social media texting and messaging and all that but one of the

00:12:11.300 big things that happens when you move is you become disconnected right you you detach from the local

00:12:17.260 institutions the clubs places of worship which are really important ways for us to to maintain

00:12:24.200 close connections with other people and one of the things that i think is is not really paid attention

00:12:29.640 to a lot is you know unlike marriage and our other familial relationships there's not a lot of

00:12:37.200 structure and friendships so it's it's sort of whatever you want to make of it so i think when

00:12:41.400 they're structured through membership in a in an institution or a club that's really beneficial and

00:12:47.320 so i think when people move you become kind of uprooted and one of the things that we know that's

00:12:52.260 true with men particularly young men is they're far less likely to be attached to to a religious

00:12:57.640 community than previous generations until older men and women and so that is a real loss in terms

00:13:04.580 of being able to establish social connections with folks so i mean are millennials moving less

00:13:09.760 like i mean is that did you guys find that in your survey yeah i think the best evidence suggests that

00:13:15.680 yeah comparatively depending on how you want to find millennials they're not yeah they're not moving

00:13:19.060 around a lot they are shifting jobs more okay previous generations that is true but in terms of

00:13:24.780 geographic mobility yeah i think it's probably a little bit less all right but but still the job

00:13:28.820 mobility we'll call it job mobility could be disrupting friendship formation absolutely and

00:13:33.840 again if people if we are disproportionately relying on the workplace for our social life yeah that's

00:13:39.580 going to be hugely disruptive well yeah let's talk about this you know work and friends so most a lot

00:13:44.040 of friends it sounds like a lot of friendships are made in like they're they're situation based so

00:13:48.780 there's church there's club and like a big one is work have you guys been able to figure out

00:13:53.360 how the emphasis on using work as a way to make friends how has that impacted american friendship

00:13:59.800 with men well you know one of the things i think is going to be something worth watching is what

00:14:06.740 happens when more americans want to work remote at least part of the time you know what happens to

00:14:12.760 workplace culture what happens to in dc a big thing is happy hours going out to grabbing a drink with

00:14:17.920 your co-workers to complain about your boss or whatever and if that happens less often that

00:14:24.260 becomes less routinized that's going to be a real loss and i think it's something that probably a lot

00:14:30.520 of people haven't thought through that you know when you're remote and i've been remote for almost 18

00:14:36.940 months now you just see people less often i mean i i see my spouse a whole heck of a lot but my friends i

00:14:42.520 see you know significantly less and you know even some of the kind of incidental contact and

00:14:49.680 conversations you have with with your co-workers there's value in that and i think you know even

00:14:56.180 if it's more of a friendly acquaintanceship versus a friendship that you know losing those i think are

00:15:02.140 are really important for us to to think about when we think about the transition that we're we're making

00:15:08.040 here and we have a new poll out just just recently that looked at the employment situation and desire

00:15:15.300 for remote work and we're seeing actually that you know i think there's this idea that a lot of people

00:15:19.740 want to work remotely they want the flexibility and there's some truth to that but the the there was a

00:15:26.820 significant number of americans i think it's more than four and ten who actually said that in-person

00:15:31.860 work with their colleagues was their ideal work situation and then the next most popular was

00:15:37.040 you know some flexibility so some amount of remote work but still largely based in office and the

00:15:43.240 minority view was a full-on remote so i think there is some sense that that people value that kind of

00:15:50.140 in-person interaction that workplace can provide so you mentioned church was a place where a lot of

00:15:57.140 people make friends and i think we've all read the articles that in america religiosity has been

00:16:01.440 declining for the past steeply i can think of the past 10 years i mean what is the number do you have

00:16:06.380 any grasp of the numbers like how how sharp the decrease particularly amongst men yeah it's it's

00:16:11.240 pretty significant actually my my dissertation was on this topic looking at the decline in

00:16:15.820 religiosity among millennials and if you look at the early 1990s that's when the the shift began

00:16:22.140 to happen it was around five or six percent of americans had no formal religious affiliation

00:16:27.600 now it's up about to about one in four among young adults under the age of 30 you know it's closer

00:16:34.200 to 40 and i think for young men it's closer it's closer to half so you know it's it's stark and you

00:16:41.180 know certainly some of those folks who don't identify religiously may still be you know connected to

00:16:45.760 a church or congregation through their family sort of being culturally connected but by and large

00:16:53.200 they're not going off and there's a strong correlation between not having a former religious

00:16:57.220 identity and not going to church or religious services yeah i've got a few friends who stopped going

00:17:03.100 to church and they say like the one thing they missed the most they didn't realize they'd missed

00:17:06.860 the most is just i've got a like a built-in social network i can go someplace and i could at least have

00:17:12.900 a chance to make some friends it's like now it's hard i feel like just i had to build that up on my own

00:17:17.920 so that's one thing that they typically regret the most about not going to church right yeah and and

00:17:23.620 i have a friend i have a you know a friend at work who who went to law school and he's a member of the

00:17:29.940 lds church and one of the things that that you know he he talked about was how welcoming everyone

00:17:35.180 was he joined a new church and you know people were immediately coming over and introducing

00:17:39.640 themselves you know asking them if they needed anything and that you have kind of a built-in

00:17:44.160 community no matter where you go and i think that's yeah that's a you know a big loss i mean we could

00:17:49.300 talk for a whole episode about you know religious decline and what that means socially civically

00:17:54.020 politically but but i think it is you know when we think about our declining social connections like

00:17:59.140 that's a big that's a big piece of it well that was also disrupted by the pandemic for a while a

00:18:03.700 lot of churches were going online doing remote or paired back services significantly i mean so did

00:18:09.260 you guys do a survey like what the pandemic did to friendships did that cause a decline in the number

00:18:13.680 of friends or feeling that people had friends did that decline as well so we did a really interesting

00:18:19.620 survey project in the middle of 2020 during in the midst of the pandemic and it did affect our

00:18:27.120 social lives and there's there's no doubt and we did this survey that looked at people's social

00:18:31.860 networks and and so how we we got at this was we asked people to to name up to seven different people

00:18:37.580 in their life who they talked to about important problems over the last in the last six months so

00:18:43.000 these are people who who were close these these weren't people who were just you know joe or jane

00:18:49.660 co-worker or an acquaintance these are people who had a close connection to the person and then we

00:18:55.720 you know some people mentioned three people that's a bunch of four and one of the things we saw

00:19:01.040 is that this was also done in 2013 there's a pretty steep decline in the number of these close social

00:19:08.200 connections people had their people's social networks we found were shrinking and we asked in the

00:19:12.900 survey because we were in the pandemic you know how much of this is due to the pandemics people 0.99

00:19:19.520 who mentioned they had zero close social connections and only about a third said it was

00:19:24.280 directly due to the pandemic so for two-thirds of people there's there's sort of larger forces at play

00:19:31.240 here than than just you know being quarantined and socially isolated for for over 12 months we're

00:19:36.980 going to take a quick break for your word from our sponsors

00:19:38.680 and now back to the show all right so situational there's like one of the reasons that it's causing

00:19:46.920 decline in male friendships is the situations have changed people are relying on work for friends

00:19:51.900 instead of neighborhoods or civic organizations or church but work jobs can be mobile because you're

00:19:58.140 constantly changing jobs so you don't have a chance to maintain or even establish friends

00:20:02.200 another factor i've heard that's playing a role in the decline of friendship is that people are

00:20:07.020 spending more time with their families than with their friends than people did in the past did your

00:20:12.820 survey find anything about that yeah so this is something that you know i looked at and other

00:20:17.380 people looked at as well and and particularly for parents and i speak as one of you know a parent of

00:20:22.620 young children the the amount of time parents are investing in their children has increased

00:20:27.920 dramatically and that just it simply takes away time from other things you might do from your your

00:20:32.980 hobbies from your work from your friends and so that's a that's a big big piece of the puzzle that

00:20:38.800 we are focusing much more on our families our spouses than than we were previously some of this might

00:20:46.000 have to do with the millennial generation being sort of socialized and and you know because this that's

00:20:51.640 the cohort that is having you know establishing families right now socialized to to really be

00:20:56.560 emphasizing families but i think there's some evidence that that might actually be changing now

00:21:01.400 again in this in this more recent survey and we asked the question about what is essential for living

00:21:08.640 a fulfilling life what kind of things is it you're being married is it having just a romantic partner

00:21:13.720 is it children is it having a good job is it money and then we also asked whether it was friends and

00:21:21.120 more americans mentioned having good friends was essential to living fulfilling life than anything

00:21:26.420 else than being married than having kids having a good job so that like what people think about the

00:21:33.180 essential ingredients for a good life is is changing i you know i don't know how quickly people will act

00:21:38.500 on it because one of the interesting things there's there's some there's some dissonance there you

00:21:42.220 know we we say we talk a big game about the importance of friends but we don't actually devote the time

00:21:47.460 towards it like if you look at the american time use survey which just looks at how people are

00:21:52.740 spending their time we devote very little time to our friends compared to other relationships

00:21:56.860 and it's actually according to at least the time you survey that's shrinking over the last decade or so

00:22:02.640 well to the topic of men spending more time with their family particularly for that emotional support

00:22:08.900 than with their friends i mean i think you there was part of your survey that found that young men are

00:22:13.600 more likely to go talk to their parents about a personal problem than first take their problem to

00:22:19.440 their friends what was the numbers there like yeah so this was one of the the more worrisome things in

00:22:26.020 the poll for me that we found that 36 of young men go to their parents first when facing a personal

00:22:31.960 problem compared to 24 of young women and young men are are much less likely to rely on their friends

00:22:39.280 than than they used to and you know as a parent i think parents are kind of great you know they

00:22:43.900 are the people that provide us with unconditional love and support they're ready and willing to you

00:22:50.380 know so hopefully support us financially and you know emotionally but it's also a unique relationship

00:22:56.560 and it's not an equal relationship either where there's the the idea of reciprocity you know giving

00:23:02.760 and getting in in roughly equal measure and that's what friendship really requires and and so you

00:23:08.560 know if young men are getting this stuff from their parents you know the parents are gonna be around

00:23:15.160 forever and again it's a unique relationship so i i think it could be hampering their ability to to

00:23:21.400 establish social connections with with their peers and the big thing and one of the reasons i think that

00:23:27.200 this is so high now is that more young people are living at home than any time since the great

00:23:32.960 depression and that's largely due to economic circumstances and and covid so more than 52 or

00:23:39.280 more than half 52 percent of young adults are living at home it's greater among young men and i think this

00:23:44.000 this close proximity to their parents you know makes them more inclined to seek out their support and

00:23:50.000 advice first as opposed to to their friends and you think this could be an issue because it's not

00:23:55.280 allowing them to grow as a as a man yeah just establish their own social networks to build

00:24:00.960 them out you know that's sort of the one of the important parts of being an adult is establishing

00:24:05.360 your own relationships figuring out you know what works doesn't work and so i think that you know

00:24:11.520 more than anything is is why that's really problematic the other thing too is i don't i mean this might sound

00:24:16.880 kind of mean but i think parents might not have any good answers for you because like they they might

00:24:22.960 they've they've had a completely different experience right and so if you're going to them

00:24:27.200 like i can't get a job and your dad who like you got a factory job right out of high school

00:24:32.320 and retired and has a pension like what is your dad going to tell you well go out there hit the

00:24:38.400 pavement and you'll find a job it's like well it's not how it works or romantic relationships or anything

00:24:42.480 like yeah i mean like your peers are really really important and all this stuff and navigating

00:24:46.400 all the things that we have to learn in adulthood you know parents can provide a and you know really

00:24:51.760 helpful backdrop but but i think it's our our peers our our friends that really allow us to to

00:24:58.240 grow yeah dating i don't have any i don't think i have any good advice for dating for my kids uh

00:25:04.720 like a tinder like i don't know like what's your profile picture i have no clue what do you do when

00:25:09.600 you get ghosted i have no idea that sounds terrible some and there's some things you probably

00:25:14.880 don't want to share with your parents right like that's you know that's totally understandable and

00:25:18.320 so i think yeah to the extent that that men can again establish their own relationship with their

00:25:23.840 friends i think that you know will be important for the rest of their lives and we know this like

00:25:28.000 that we know that friendship matters for the entire duration of your life it's not just important for

00:25:32.480 when you're young or before you get married there there is in fact some research that says among seniors

00:25:38.960 friendship becomes even more important than than family family relationships so besides going to

00:25:45.200 their parents for emotional support if they're married men will tend to go to their spouses first 0.80

00:25:51.760 before they go to a friend about a problem how has that changed from previous decades yeah so so we

00:25:59.440 know that in our survey americans are talking to their spouse first when they have a problem and

00:26:04.800 that's more than anyone else not surprising right it's a it's a unique relationship but we found the

00:26:09.840 number of people relying on our spouse increased by 10 points over the over the last 30 or so years

00:26:16.480 so men rely on their spouse more than the women do and there's like a 20 point gap there so women

00:26:23.360 will many women will go to a friend first or a family member whereas men were all you know nearly

00:26:28.880 exclusively reliant on their spouse and is that because like men feel they can't go to a friend

00:26:34.320 about this stuff and they just got to go to their their wife yeah and i and i think the intimacy that

00:26:40.480 women have with a number of different people a lot of men only have with their spouse and i think this

00:26:45.600 is the problem you know returning to our you know we were talking about earlier it puts a lot of

00:26:49.520 pressure on wives to to be that you know the absolute everything in terms of emotional and personal 1.00

00:26:56.880 support if i can't have these you know difficult conversations if i can't get the emotional support from

00:27:01.760 a friend well i've got to get it from somewhere or i don't get it at all which is this entirely

00:27:06.720 different problem but it puts a lot more strain on a marriage when you can't you know when your wife

00:27:11.760 has to be everything for you so i think that's something to really consider men do their wives

00:27:17.280 the favor by you know reaching out and having good friendships so they have a broader group of folks

00:27:25.200 to rely on when when things get tough no yeah that's one of the advice that i give dudes who get

00:27:30.560 married when you first get married i feel like there's a tendency i just want to spend time with

00:27:33.120 my wife she's awesome she's great there's that honeymoon but at a certain point you have to start

00:27:37.600 making male friends it's going to be better for your relationship if you do absolutely so another

00:27:43.200 thing i've heard and read from friendship experts is that one of the reasons that men tend to have

00:27:47.600 fewer friends than women is that men tend to rely on their wives for their social networks so i can 0.99

00:27:53.360 see why that would result in a less robust social network because you just have this one person who's

00:27:57.920 providing your social calendar but it did provide some connections so there was a benefit there one

00:28:03.920 thing i i thought of as i was reading through your survey that could also be contributing to the

00:28:08.480 decline in male friendship today is that men today are getting married later or they're not getting

00:28:13.920 married at all so you have like this double whammy going on you have men who aren't prioritizing

00:28:18.240 friendships themselves trying to make friendships on their own and they don't have a wife for those

00:28:23.760 social connections either yeah no i i think that that is something that we found in our day that

00:28:29.760 that single men particularly had significantly fewer friends than married men and to single women

00:28:35.440 so marriage i think is often set up as kind of an antagonist or set up in opposition to friendship

00:28:42.800 but really you know marriage can benefit you know for the reason we talked about you know you suddenly

00:28:48.800 gain a lot of social connections through your your spouse a lot of us will meet additional friends

00:28:53.840 through our spouse our spouse's work so there's a lot of social benefit that is that is gained from

00:28:59.280 getting married and we actually see this interestingly that men are more likely to value marriage right

00:29:06.320 now and to say that it's essential than women are which is really interesting and i think it's because

00:29:12.560 men receive so much from marriage right they get you know someone they're emotionally connected with

00:29:17.360 someone who's committed to their welfare and well-being and then women are like yeah i get this

00:29:21.680 from my marriage but i also get this from my friends and and that is something that men are lacking or

00:29:26.160 at least a lot of men are lacking yeah and also when you get married typically you have kids it's 0.99

00:29:31.200 often something you do and like having kids is another way to expand your social networks you're

00:29:35.760 going to get involved in scouts the school you might coach peewee baseball or whatever um and so you

00:29:42.000 might not become best friends with the parents but like you at least put yourself in a situation where

00:29:46.800 friendships could be made yeah absolutely we're we're in a phase right now that we do play dates like

00:29:52.160 every weekend so we're hanging out and talking with our parents and you know doing the the

00:29:58.080 brunch thing with where the kids are playing in the other room and and it's great and and what happens

00:30:01.600 i think when we get older and our lives get really busy is we kind of put friendships on we just want

00:30:08.240 to kind of add them on to things we're already doing and and fit into our lives and then that's

00:30:12.400 those are the kind of friendships that that we create and maintain and there's value there right they

00:30:16.640 they may not become really intimate friends or a close friend or even the best friend but there

00:30:22.400 there's still a lot of value in those in those relationships have you like in your survey did

00:30:27.040 you figure out like what people are doing if like they don't have friends they're not married they don't

00:30:31.760 have kids like what are people just like they just go their their house and just sit by themselves

00:30:37.120 like what what do people do they're they're having you heard they're they're fixing up old vans and

00:30:41.360 driving them across the country okay looking for friends yeah well i think that you know there's

00:30:48.720 there's research that it shows that the amount of time where we've spent in the office and on our work

00:30:53.360 has increased pretty significantly so we're definitely pouring more time into work we just again had this

00:30:59.760 new survey come out and people are engaged not only in full-time jobs but pursuing side hustles

00:31:05.280 as well and so i think we've been kind of oriented to think that that's what you need right you you know

00:31:12.960 to be successful you you you need to have a good job and career you need to get married you need to

00:31:17.760 start a family and now we're starting to think like well there's there's a lot else out there and friends

00:31:24.480 are becoming a more important part of the equation and ironically right at the very moment we need more

00:31:31.040 friends our social circles are shrinking right as you mentioned we're you know the average age of

00:31:36.640 of marriage now i think for men is like 30 and for women it's 28 and so we're single longer and for

00:31:43.760 single people friends are really the most important relationship for the most part that we have

00:31:49.360 and we have just fewer of them and so it's it's really challenging i think it's why you're seeing

00:31:55.360 one of the reasons anyway you're seeing this increased levels of loneliness and social isolation and

00:32:00.800 and depression and anxiety among young people this like we haven't we haven't emphasized i think

00:32:06.960 societally and given the tools for people to build and establish lifelong friendships okay so this idea

00:32:14.480 that people they're saying they want friends or friends are going to be important this goes to a

00:32:19.120 question i've been trying to mull over i've been well i've been mulling over for the past few years

00:32:23.040 because every time i have like these loneliness experts come on the podcast i always define loneliness

00:32:28.960 it's a subjective feeling right so you could the idea you can be surrounded with six friends and

00:32:33.120 still feel lonely and isolated or you just have one friend and you feel like well i i'm this is great

00:32:38.080 i hit the jackpot i got this one friend and your survey kind of hinted at that this this is something

00:32:42.800 like this is going on so i think one of the thing you found is that americans with one close friend

00:32:48.960 feel just as lonely or isolated as those without any close friends those with two friends only feel a

00:32:56.320 little less lonely than those with no friends and people with three or fewer friends still regularly

00:33:02.000 feel lonely and isolated but i read that like man you got three friends like that should be plenty

00:33:06.880 and something you'd be happy with but a lot of people don't seem to be and your survey found that only

00:33:12.560 about half of americans feel satisfied with the number of friends and for men um less than half are

00:33:17.840 satisfied and so this gets the question okay some people have friends but even with the friends they have

00:33:22.560 they're not happy with it do we maybe have like too high expectations of what friendship should look

00:33:30.160 like like the number of friends we have and what our friendship should be be like with that person

00:33:35.200 and because those expectations aren't met we we feel lonely does that make sense yeah there's a lot to

00:33:41.600 unpack here and this was uh among the most surprising findings in the poll this this idea that

00:33:48.560 you need a lot of friends right like in terms of of forestalling loneliness and social isolation

00:33:55.200 depression anxiety that it's not just having a best friend or even one or two close friends that

00:34:01.040 matters you you need to have a few and you know the survey didn't get this directly but i have some

00:34:06.480 theories for for why that is and one of which is it it may take you know given the busyness of our

00:34:13.280 our lives it may take having access to more than one friend to to really get the benefit you know

00:34:18.320 you may have a friend who's busy you may have a friend who's married with kids not you know may

00:34:22.400 not be able to i'm going to be available when you need them and so i think like having a broader

00:34:28.320 social network is is really important the other thing that i think and this is not something that

00:34:33.920 i've i've seen a lot and maybe you have some perspective on this too is that friendship groups are

00:34:39.920 something that i'm increasingly interested in and it may be that friendship groups offer some

00:34:44.560 considerable personal benefit you know one person can initiate a get together group pressure may

00:34:49.840 convince people to to come who otherwise may have found an excuse not to and you know to order to have

00:34:56.480 a friendship group you need more than you know two you need more probably more than three and and so i

00:35:01.280 think that there's some benefit there and we know from our survey that a significant number of americans

00:35:06.720 have have friendship groups where people know each other and that is a a a significant benefit to

00:35:14.000 folks and so i think like that's something to think about as well in terms of the you know our

00:35:20.160 expectations and whether they're realistic i think social media in oh so many ways is is not our friend

00:35:27.440 if you'll excuse the expression that you know we see these people out having fun doing really great

00:35:32.560 things people all together you know instagram is is horrible in this way and there's yeah there's

00:35:38.800 idea like wow you know my friends don't do this or i don't you know seem to have the same kind of

00:35:42.320 connection i don't seem to be laughing as much when i'm hanging out with my friends and so i think like

00:35:46.800 it can give us kind of a tilted view when it comes to what we should expect from friendship yeah i think

00:35:53.840 i think that's going on i think our expectations are too high for friendship and we're just supreme

00:35:59.280 we're always going to be disappointed from your survey were you able to get any insights from

00:36:03.440 people who have fulfilling friendships like what are they doing differently than those who

00:36:09.520 don't have fulfilling friendships well one of the things that we we did a little analysis of

00:36:14.800 people who have best friends and one of the questions that we asked well what makes this person your

00:36:20.160 best friend so we actually allowed respondents to to say in their own words what it was that that made this

00:36:27.120 friend special and unique and it was really interesting how many people mentioned how long

00:36:33.040 they had known this person so longevity was really a key part of it and i think it just takes time to

00:36:38.960 build up intimacy and connection so people talk about the shared language among friends and that you

00:36:45.040 don't need to talk often but you need to talk you need to have a similarity drawing from the same

00:36:50.480 experiences so so i think that's kind of a crucial component you know yes you can develop tight

00:36:56.560 relationships maybe over a year or two but you know those those people who are your best friends

00:37:01.920 those really close relationships have been around a while okay so obviously the intent of this survey

00:37:06.640 is to be descriptive rather than prescriptive you're just trying to give people a general lay of the

00:37:11.760 land of a friendship in america today but are there any policy changes or institutional changes or just

00:37:18.240 general takeaways you hope people walk away with after they read your survey results yeah so like

00:37:24.000 professionally i'm i'm agnostic on on policy you know i work in washington dc where everything's

00:37:29.760 political so i really try to stay out of recommending or wanting policy changes but obviously you know when

00:37:36.960 it comes to something you know so basic as friendship i i would love to see groups you know pick it up run

00:37:44.240 with it you know we've identified a pretty significant issue i think and we're going to produce more research on

00:37:49.600 on this topic in the future so definitely stay tuned but you know for me i've been a researcher

00:37:55.600 my entire life i've been i've been doing polling from you know 20 my 20s onward and so i you know i don't

00:38:03.200 really get involved in the policy debates nor do i i have actually you know any good ideas about the

00:38:09.120 correct interventions other than like again culturally societally we should just emphasize friendship you

00:38:14.560 know we should sort of say hey you know what marriage is great there's a lot of great things about

00:38:18.800 marriage but you know if you're looking to build a complete life you've really got to spend some time

00:38:24.400 and think about friendships and you know employers should too and church leaders should as well right

00:38:30.140 like they should think about friendship in a way that you know in the way that people practice it in

00:38:34.920 the way that people think about it so meet them where they are and not try to prescribe something to

00:38:39.260 them well i think the takeaway too and just listening to you talking about the different changes in

00:38:44.520 friendship is okay people seem to be putting an emphasis on friendship but i think the big takeaway

00:38:50.220 is like well if you want friends it's kind of on you now like there's no longer those institutions

00:38:54.780 that are basically support friendship yeah you have work but work is constantly shifting your fellow

00:39:00.380 co-worker could leave jobs or you could leave jobs a lot of people are going to church if you're

00:39:04.700 not going to do that you have to be really intentional about it and make it happen for yourself

00:39:08.740 yeah no i think that's that is at the heart of this thing yeah friendships are really unique in

00:39:14.520 that way there's not the same kind of structure i think as i mentioned earlier they are completely

00:39:18.960 voluntary and they come in a wide variety and something else i would mention too is that you

00:39:25.340 know a friendship doesn't have to to provide you with everything right it doesn't have to be the

00:39:30.120 most intimate the most connected friendship to be worthwhile and to to be a value and so you know

00:39:35.740 i'm talking about from my own experience these friends with the parents we've made through our

00:39:39.980 kids daycare and you know for a lot of these folks yeah we probably won't become close close friends but

00:39:46.040 there's the the friendship and and the community we get are just invaluable to us yeah i think that's

00:39:52.660 a good point i think a lot of times people when they look for a friend they're looking for a friend

00:39:55.520 that will like hit all their sweet spots on their interests and have a lot in common but it's okay to

00:40:00.400 have friends who are okay this is my work friend and this is my peewee baseball parent friend this

00:40:07.160 is my gym friend you don't have to have everything in common to be a friend absolutely well daniel

00:40:12.820 this has been a great conversation where can people go to learn more about the survey and your work

00:40:15.920 so i would absolutely encourage you to you know we're very active on twitter i'm at d cox cox

00:40:22.780 polls so you can you can find our work there and then on our website as well we are at

00:40:28.720 americansurveycenter.org fantastic well daniel cox thanks for time it's been a pleasure

00:40:32.680 thank you so much my guest is daniel cox he's the director of the survey center on american life

00:40:38.020 you can find out the survey that we discussed today at americansurveycenter.org it's under the

00:40:42.760 title american men suffer a friendship recession also check out our show notes at aom.is

00:40:47.080 slash friendship recession we find links to resources we delve deeper into this topic

00:40:50.520 well that wraps up another edition of the aom podcast check our website at art of manliness.com

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00:41:32.720 podcast but put what you've heard into action

00:41:49.120 so you

00:41:49.500 yeah

00:41:51.440 yeah

00:41:54.340 yeah

00:41:56.840 yeah

00:42:02.940 yeah

00:42:04.100 yeah

The Art of Manliness - July 26, 2021

What's Causing the Male Friendship Recession？

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