The Art of Manliness - What the Labors of Hercules Can Teach You About Life and Masculinity

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:10.420 Now you're probably familiar with the mythological tale of Hercules or Heracles as the hero was

00:00:14.520 originally called from books, comics, and movies.

00:00:16.820 But while Hercules is often rendered as a kind of one-dimensional superhero in popular

00:00:20.240 culture, my guest day argues that he's actually quite a complex character.

00:00:23.660 The story of how he completed 12 epic labors has a lot to teach us about endurance, revenge,

00:00:28.240 mental illness, violence, punishment, trauma, bereavement, friendship, love, and masculinity.

00:00:34.900 His name is Lawrence Allison, and he's a forensic psychologist and an expert in interrogation

00:00:38.480 who's created a written and oral retelling of the classic myth.

00:00:41.420 At the start of the show, Lawrence shares how he's been using the story of the 12 labors

00:00:44.400 of Hercules to facilitate reflection and discussion amongst military personnel and first responders

00:00:49.020 and how the labors provide life insights for everyone.

00:00:51.480 We then dig into the details of many of the labors of Hercules, from slaying a line to

00:00:55.140 cleaning out stables, and discuss what they can teach us about grappling with life's highs

00:00:58.760 and lows and what it means to be a man.

00:01:00.760 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash Hercules.

00:01:15.280 All right.

00:01:16.300 Lawrence Allison, welcome back to the show.

00:01:18.480 Thank you so much for having me again, Brett.

00:01:19.980 It's lovely to be here.

00:01:20.800 So we had you and your wife on the show a year ago to talk about how to build rapport.

00:01:24.380 And you two have a unique perspective on this because you are experts in interrogating criminals

00:01:29.340 and terrorists, and you have to build rapport with these guys to get information from them.

00:01:33.840 And that's episode number 648 for those who want to check that out.

00:01:36.820 You've got a new book out, and it's about the mythical labors of Hercules.

00:01:41.320 Now, this might seem like it's coming out of left field for a guy who's an expert in interrogating

00:01:45.520 terrorists, but the book came out in part because you work in the military world and in the law

00:01:50.240 enforcement world.

00:01:51.120 And you kind of landed on the myth of Hercules as a way to facilitate discussion with military

00:01:56.380 vets and other first responders and help them communicate with each other, correct?

00:02:01.300 Yeah.

00:02:01.800 Well, I mean, I think you had a, you know, I listened to your great podcast that you do with

00:02:05.500 Brian Durries and his work on theater of war, you know, and he was making the point that

00:02:09.920 the Greeks were doing this many years ago.

00:02:12.400 And it was a strategy of telling their young soldiers or a fee boy, you know, myths, legends

00:02:18.040 and stories and seeing how they interpreted them in a way that they were able to talk about

00:02:23.780 difficult themes, you know, love, loss, bereavement, friendship, vengeance, you know, senior authorities

00:02:31.380 letting them down, political things, post-traumatic stress and so on.

00:02:35.300 And these myths and legends are near enough to the reality of what they're dealing with, but

00:02:40.160 far enough away to make it a safe learning environment.

00:02:43.760 So if you look at the story of Hercules, you know, many people think of The Rock or the

00:02:48.720 Disney version or whatever, of him basically being just essentially a strong guy.

00:02:54.060 But the complexity of Hercules as a masculine figure, the more I read into it, the more you

00:03:00.960 can get out of it.

00:03:01.800 And we were finding with some of these guys, I was doing work with them when we were reading

00:03:06.700 out of labor and saying, how do you interpret that?

00:03:08.540 It was very interesting how each individual saw each labor rather differently.

00:03:14.820 And it was enabling them to talk about topics that otherwise might be a little bit too close

00:03:19.700 to the bone.

00:03:20.240 And as we all know, part of healing is talking, simple as that.

00:03:23.900 So it was a device to get people talking and actually uncover some things about themselves

00:03:29.200 that perhaps some of which were surprising, but perhaps other bits not.

00:03:33.500 So it's a complex, multi-layered, cognitively chewy tale.

00:03:39.620 I think, you know, there's no surprise that these myths and legends have a really enduring

00:03:44.120 property that are as relevant today as they were, you know, in the sixth century BC.

00:03:48.520 It sounds very like a mythopoetic, you know, sort of a Robert Bly, Iron John, you use a

00:03:54.140 fable or myth to talk about issues.

00:03:57.580 You know, as you said, I think it's useful.

00:03:58.980 What's useful is that it's detached enough where you're not like, it's not too on the

00:04:03.280 nose, but it allows the person to get the conversation going in a different direction.

00:04:09.340 Exactly, exactly.

00:04:11.340 And I mean, you know, some of the sort of beats of the story are much more obvious than others.

00:04:17.320 You know, we know that when Hercules returns from war and he's battle-scarred and traumatized,

00:04:23.800 Hera, who's always cursed him from birth because she hates the fact that he's born out of Zeus's

00:04:28.280 infidelity, makes him hallucinate and see his wife Megara and his children as demons in the

00:04:34.040 house.

00:04:34.700 And seeing those kids as demons, he attacks them, kills them and throws them on a fire.

00:04:38.700 You know, there's a very obvious direct links to kind of, you know, returning more, finding

00:04:44.460 it very difficult, return to normal life, a sort of madness that they can encounter when

00:04:48.360 they're undergoing PTSD.

00:04:49.800 And then this sort of redemption story or atonement journey that Hercules goes on thereafter.

00:04:55.860 And that's what leads to the 12 labors.

00:04:58.380 And what's nice about this book, it's well done.

00:05:00.380 It's the stories, you did a good job making the stories captivating, but succinct.

00:05:04.560 But they're also, as you said, they're, they're, they're wonderfully illustrated.

00:05:07.600 So very evocative.

00:05:09.180 Yeah.

00:05:09.480 And what I found too, as I was reading this, I understood like, well, you know, Lawrence

00:05:13.800 is using this with vets, but as I was reading, it was like, well, this is applicable to anybody

00:05:17.400 just going through, you know, just mortal existence where things are hard.

00:05:21.240 You're faced with hard decisions.

00:05:22.340 You're faced with setbacks.

00:05:23.600 And each of the labors I found were eliciting questions or reflections for me, who's not

00:05:31.020 a military veteran.

00:05:33.180 Yeah, absolutely.

00:05:34.140 I think, you know, well, the weird thing is, you know, I sort of gave it, you know, as,

00:05:37.640 as one always does with one's parents, they always want to, you know, they always want

00:05:41.920 a copy of your book or the thing that you've produced or the podcast that you produce.

00:05:45.440 And sometimes they listen and sometimes they read or sometimes they say they've read it and

00:05:48.800 they haven't, but they say it's great.

00:05:50.000 But what was interesting, I gave it to my parents and they said they were reading each

00:05:53.900 of the labors out one per night and they're in their eighties, right?

00:05:57.540 And, you know, they were interpreting them differently and they really did kind of get

00:06:01.260 into them.

00:06:01.760 So you're right, Brett, it's got, it's got a huge resonance.

00:06:03.580 And actually, I honestly think without being too sort of, you know, doing my own therapy

00:06:08.400 on air, it really helps me.

00:06:10.480 There was stuff in it that I was reading and I'm still contemplating now.

00:06:14.360 I mean, I love the ambiguity of it.

00:06:16.720 You know, he really isn't just simply a heroic figure.

00:06:19.720 What is he, a berserker, a madman?

00:06:22.280 You know, has he got mental health issues?

00:06:24.500 He's a murderer.

00:06:25.280 He's a rapist.

00:06:26.100 He's, you know, he's a very, very complex, nuanced figure.

00:06:29.780 And the journey that you go on in the reading of it or the listening to it will reveal as

00:06:35.440 much about you probably as it will about him.

00:06:38.460 And you're right as well.

00:06:39.400 I've got to give a shout out to David Hitchcock for the illustrations.

00:06:42.300 And the weird thing is actually, you know, when I got in touch with David, who's a wonderful

00:06:46.080 illustrator, you know, in the same kind of vein as Sidney Padgett that drew the home stories

00:06:51.320 and Tenniel that drew Alison Wundland.

00:06:54.340 He really is that old school, wonderful sort of illustrator.

00:06:57.860 And bizarrely, you know, neither he nor I could find a set of 12 illustrations of all 12 labors,

00:07:04.700 which I just found weird that it's been around for so long.

00:07:08.340 So it was fantastic working with David and some of the writing and storytelling I geared

00:07:13.780 around what he'd actually produced as an image.

00:07:16.340 But yeah, going back to your question, Brett, there's lots in it for everyone.

00:07:19.940 You know, it could be as applicable or relevant to children as I think it could be to people

00:07:24.380 that have retired.

00:07:25.240 It's not the exclusive domain of vets or law enforcement by any means.

00:07:29.820 Well, let's dig into the story and the takeaways from it.

00:07:32.200 And as you said, I think most people, they're probably familiar with the Disney Hercules version,

00:07:36.980 which as my 10-year-old son, when we watched it this year, he's like, that's not how the

00:07:41.720 story went.

00:07:42.600 He understood, like he understood the Hera dynamic and that doesn't show up at all in

00:07:47.060 the Disney version.

00:07:48.460 So let's start before the labors of Hercules.

00:07:50.500 That's, I think, that's the backstory that lays the groundwork.

00:07:54.160 What's the backstory of that?

00:07:55.860 And then how did, I mean, it's a lot of stuff like it started off with Hercules' parents.

00:08:01.060 How did those decisions influence the labors of Hercules?

00:08:04.460 Well, I mean, I start off with a chapter called The Boy That Strangled Snakes.

00:08:09.980 So anyone that's familiar with the story will know that Zeus, I mean, the amazing thing about

00:08:14.760 the Greek gods is they're all capricious, libidinous, kind of complex figures.

00:08:20.280 And Zeus, you know, god of the gods, is going around, you know, spreading his seed all over

00:08:25.140 the place.

00:08:25.480 And basically, he appears in the form of Alcmini's husband and essentially rapes Alcmini, right?

00:08:31.400 So they have a child who's part mortal, part god, and Hera, who is Zeus's wife, hence

00:08:38.640 Heracles, or that's where the name Heracles comes from, got changed in the Roman to Hercules.

00:08:43.720 But Hera has this lifelong relationship with Heracles because she curses him from birth.

00:08:49.000 In fact, she tries to prevent his birth.

00:08:51.620 There's a couple of things that she does.

00:08:52.840 But a notable feature is that she puts two snakes in his cot to try and kill him.

00:08:57.300 And, you know, a sort of defining moment in Heracles' life is Alcmini runs into the room

00:09:02.240 to see Heracles in his cot with the two snakes in his hand, having strangled them and kind

00:09:07.220 of laughing.

00:09:07.980 So it's at that point we realise that we're dealing with an unusual child that, you know,

00:09:12.800 in the face of death and uncertainty and risk and peril, grabs these two things, kills them

00:09:18.620 and endures.

00:09:19.580 So, you know, a common trope in Greek mythology is bad parenting or abandoned parenting or

00:09:26.700 infidelity.

00:09:27.780 And the child nearly always pays for the sins of the father.

00:09:32.340 And, you know, Hera curses him throughout his life.

00:09:34.540 You know, as I said before, the madness when he returns home and various other labours that

00:09:38.660 he goes through.

00:09:39.160 But that's where the story starts, that, you know, through Zeus's infidelity, we get this

00:09:43.860 interesting character that doesn't quite sit with the gods, doesn't quite sit with the

00:09:48.200 mortals and, in a way, casts a somewhat lonely figure.

00:09:52.460 Although, as I say, as a child, he's a sort of happy, enduring, robust young man that is

00:09:57.700 able to deal with adversity, even as an infant.

00:10:01.300 And look, like you said, there's takeaways from that applicable just to anybody.

00:10:04.620 The idea is our parents have a big influence on our lives and their mistakes can influence

00:10:10.560 us the rest of their life.

00:10:12.020 Even if they're not like proactively trying to curse us, their decisions can have consequences

00:10:18.160 on our lives for good and for bad.

00:10:21.720 So he does these 12 labours.

00:10:23.400 Why does Hercules have to do these 12 labours or feats?

00:10:27.160 What's, why, why, why that?

00:10:29.320 Well, depending on what source you go to, I mean, sometimes, sometimes the murder of his

00:10:33.600 wife and children bizarrely comes after the labours.

00:10:36.120 But, you know, in other versions of the story, it comes after the murder.

00:10:39.660 I saw it as his effort to, well, actually, interestingly, you know, when we get to the labours,

00:10:46.180 different people will read different things into it.

00:10:48.140 But certainly I saw it as his form of atonement or seeking redemption after he'd murdered his

00:10:54.520 family.

00:10:54.960 As this hallucination murders his family, goes to the Temple of Apollo, god of truth and

00:11:02.040 prophecy, and seeks atonement and is told by the priestess at the temple to seek out King

00:11:09.020 Eurystheus and complete these labours.

00:11:10.940 And it's an endurance test for him.

00:11:13.080 It's, you know, can he do them?

00:11:14.320 But different people will see his motivation for doing them as rather differently.

00:11:19.480 So, you know, if we take the first labour, the Nemean lion, I mean, in very, very simple

00:11:24.020 sort of terms, the first labour that King Eurystheus sets, Heracles, is to go and kill

00:11:29.920 the Nemean lion, which has been terrorising people in Nemea.

00:11:33.320 And he chooses to go without weapons.

00:11:36.460 He defeats the lion.

00:11:37.780 He skins the lion.

00:11:38.700 And we've all seen in, you know, the rocks version of Hercules, he has the lion hide as

00:11:43.480 a kind of armour afterwards.

00:11:45.240 And it's quite interesting.

00:11:46.300 When I did the first version of this story with some paramedics and military personnel,

00:11:50.880 you know, one of the prompts at the end of that labour is, OK, so why did Hercules go

00:11:57.540 without weapons to this fight?

00:11:59.060 And I got two really different answers straight away.

00:12:01.680 One of the paramedics said, well, I think he's on a suicide mission.

00:12:05.300 You know, he's gone there to basically kill himself.

00:12:08.700 And that's his motivation.

00:12:09.880 He's got no intention of completing the last few labours.

00:12:13.040 And actually, you know, maybe he sees it as fate that he's able to defeat it.

00:12:17.280 I spoke to one of the military guys and his view was, no, no, he's gone without weapons

00:12:21.920 because he wants to test himself.

00:12:23.680 He wants to test himself as a man without help, without weapons, with nothing but his bare

00:12:28.640 hands.

00:12:29.040 And it's a test of his robustness and rigorous.

00:12:32.240 So, you know, straight away, you start seeing these different pathways or different interpretations

00:12:36.840 of the same story.

00:12:38.460 And just, I guess it just depends on your background.

00:12:41.440 So, OK, well, the other prompt, too, like, what do you make of this?

00:12:43.880 What are the answers you've got when you've asked that question?

00:12:46.100 OK, so he kills the lion, skins it, and then he puts the skin on and he wears it for the

00:12:51.260 rest of his labours that he does.

00:12:53.520 When you ask me, like, what's going on there?

00:12:56.120 What are some of the responses you get?

00:12:58.200 Well, again, variable.

00:12:59.680 But I guess the two main ones that you tend to get is either people will say, well, it's

00:13:05.840 a symbol of his first labour to remind himself that he was successful, that he's never going

00:13:12.500 to forget what he did to the lion and that it was out of respect for the lion and he's

00:13:16.640 not going to just let the carcass rot in the sun.

00:13:19.400 And then other people will say, well, no, it's a much more practical, functional thing

00:13:22.740 that we know that the lion's hide can't be pierced, it can't be stabbed.

00:13:26.400 And it's his armour.

00:13:27.660 He sees it as the best kind of armour.

00:13:29.240 So those are the two sort of main responses you get.

00:13:32.180 But again, variable, variable.

00:13:34.540 And actually doesn't necessarily wear them in all the labours, just some of them.

00:13:37.840 Certainly when he gets to the dog of the underworld, Cerberus, he's got it back on again because

00:13:42.340 you've got a three-headed dog trying to rip his arms and fists and forearms off.

00:13:46.180 So, yeah.

00:13:47.260 Well, here's a question maybe we should have asked before we started getting into labours.

00:13:50.180 At this point, does Hercules know that he is the son of, like, of gods?

00:13:56.340 Yes, he knows about his lineage to some extent.

00:13:59.880 I mean, you know, again, I write in the story, you know, at the age of 15, he can lift a cow

00:14:06.360 above his head.

00:14:07.100 So he knows there's something unique and unusual about him.

00:14:10.780 But again, I mean, if you look at the various different sources, Euripides and the various

00:14:14.940 other sort of early versions of the legend, they will write him differently.

00:14:18.520 Some will make him much more consciously aware of his lineage and others not.

00:14:22.680 So, again, it's very variable.

00:14:24.080 And what I was conscious of doing when I was writing this was not feeding the reader too

00:14:29.740 much of what I thought about it.

00:14:32.500 You know, I deliberately, you know, I'm glad you said that it's succinct.

00:14:36.000 You know, they're quite short and punchy, each of the labours.

00:14:38.740 And I think it's for the reader to bring some of themselves and their interpretation to each

00:14:44.960 of the labours and indeed to their understanding of the central person in the story.

00:14:50.480 So, yeah, that was one of my objectives to leave it sufficiently open.

00:14:54.240 So, the second labour is he has to go kill a hydra.

00:14:58.520 And what's interesting about this one, in the first one, he does it by himself, no weapons.

00:15:02.580 This one, he brings along his nephew.

00:15:05.760 What do you think is going on there?

00:15:06.920 Like, when you ask people, like, why is Hercules' nephew there?

00:15:10.320 What kind of answers do you get?

00:15:11.660 Well, you know, again, if you look at the first four labours, you've got the Nemean lion,

00:15:18.000 the Linnaean hydra, the Aromanthian boar and the Serennaean hind.

00:15:20.880 They're all with beasts and they get increasingly sort of complex.

00:15:25.300 The Nemean lion is everything stripped back.

00:15:27.300 It's just Hercules and the lion.

00:15:29.860 Then we get Iolaus' nephew with the hydra.

00:15:33.000 And most people will know that you chop a hydra head off and two grow in its place.

00:15:36.840 And it's, you know, Iolaus is his young nephew and terrified of the hydra,

00:15:42.580 but steps forward and provides the solution, cauterizes the stumps so that they don't grow back.

00:15:48.680 You know, then you get the Aromanthian boar where you've got these three centaurs that are involved in it.

00:15:53.040 And then the Serennaean hind, you get a god involved in it.

00:15:56.080 And, you know, I see it.

00:15:57.840 Again, I don't want to give too much away about what I think,

00:15:59.980 because, again, I think the readers need to see how they see it.

00:16:02.520 In those first four labours, you're getting increasing complexity.

00:16:06.840 If you imagine Hercules is at the centre of our story,

00:16:10.060 then we start seeing some involvement from his family.

00:16:13.080 You know, a young man that is with him that's helping.

00:16:15.560 Then we see some community sort of related people that give him some local knowledge

00:16:19.700 to help solve the riddle of the Aromanthian boar.

00:16:22.640 And then we see Artemis.

00:16:24.160 And, you know, when you give this to various different people,

00:16:26.240 military, law enforcement or not,

00:16:27.880 they will often talk about family when they're talking about ILS

00:16:31.340 and looking after the young people.

00:16:33.920 Then when we get to the Aromanthian boar,

00:16:35.740 they're talking about helping local communities

00:16:37.720 and local community knowledge

00:16:39.000 and being an intruder in an area that you're not familiar with.

00:16:42.260 Then when we get to the Serenade and Hind,

00:16:44.380 they're talking about their bosses,

00:16:46.400 you know, senior people that are assisting them or not

00:16:48.600 or getting in their way of their job.

00:16:50.700 So there's a kind of increasing concentric circle

00:16:53.900 of people that you're involved with.

00:16:56.260 And that's how I see it in the first four labours.

00:16:58.800 And that tends to be what comes out.

00:17:01.320 You know, Hercules starts to look after ILS.

00:17:03.380 But again, you know, the idea of no man is an island.

00:17:06.520 But this comes back to bite our hero, of course, later,

00:17:09.440 when King Eurystheus says,

00:17:10.680 well, actually, you need to do two more labours

00:17:12.280 because originally there were only 10.

00:17:14.040 He says, because you've been given too much help.

00:17:16.780 So it's, you know, the age-old idea that, you know,

00:17:19.640 if you're writing about a heroic figure,

00:17:21.240 you have to really beat them up psychologically

00:17:23.500 and really give them a hard time

00:17:25.580 so that you can see that they're enduring.

00:17:28.180 Yeah, for me, so this is my response

00:17:29.820 when I read the Hydra one.

00:17:31.860 It's like, well, this is Hercules being a mentor, right?

00:17:34.360 He's showing his nephew how to be a man.

00:17:37.320 But what's interesting, though,

00:17:38.580 is that his nephew actually taught Hercules

00:17:41.180 something in the process as well.

00:17:43.320 Like, I've noticed that that happens

00:17:45.260 in a really good mentor-mentee relationship.

00:17:47.720 It's symbiotic.

00:17:48.660 It goes both ways.

00:17:49.440 Like, the mentor passes on knowledge, information

00:17:53.340 to the person they're mentoring.

00:17:54.920 But then the mentee can also teach the mentor things

00:17:58.360 that they otherwise wouldn't have known.

00:18:01.140 Well, that's interesting.

00:18:01.760 So if I was doing the labors on you, Brett,

00:18:04.440 I might unpack that a bit more.

00:18:05.940 I might say, you know,

00:18:06.940 it seems to me that that may be something

00:18:08.640 that is important to you,

00:18:10.000 that you are wise enough to know

00:18:13.240 that your age doesn't preclude you

00:18:16.280 from learning from the young.

00:18:17.660 Obviously, you mentioned earlier your son,

00:18:19.440 you know, his slightly more nuanced view

00:18:22.720 of the Disney story not being right.

00:18:25.000 So, you know, I get the sense

00:18:26.400 that you're the sort of father

00:18:27.920 that's happy to learn from their kids,

00:18:29.520 which is great.

00:18:30.700 I mean, would that be fair to say

00:18:31.660 without sort of now interrogating you, Brett,

00:18:33.280 like I think we did a bit last time.

00:18:34.940 Right, yeah, you interrogated me last night.

00:18:36.360 No, I would say that's right.

00:18:37.320 I'm always, I love when my kids have these insights.

00:18:40.540 You're like, wow, that's wise and beyond your years.

00:18:44.120 And I'm always surprised.

00:18:45.500 It's like a pleasant surprise when that happens.

00:18:47.740 Yeah, and I think, you know,

00:18:48.680 as a father, you want to be receptive to that

00:18:50.660 because, you know, we all get older.

00:18:53.480 We're all of our time, aren't we?

00:18:54.800 And our kids are growing up

00:18:56.780 and seeing different things

00:18:58.040 and realizing different things

00:18:59.500 and learning things that we have not yet learned

00:19:02.080 because they're closer to them.

00:19:03.760 So you mentioned one of the other beasts

00:19:05.220 you had to capture was a hind,

00:19:07.180 which is, what is that?

00:19:07.880 Basically a deer, a big giant deer.

00:19:09.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:19:11.160 Which doesn't seem like that.

00:19:12.600 What's hard about that?

00:19:13.700 You just went hunting.

00:19:14.680 But what made it difficult?

00:19:16.600 Like what made it a labor?

00:19:17.480 Yeah, so Eurystheus,

00:19:20.060 who is this kind of doughy, pasty,

00:19:21.940 awful, cowardly king

00:19:23.140 that's kind of setting these labors,

00:19:24.420 hoping that each one will kill him.

00:19:26.380 You know, so he gives him the lion,

00:19:27.820 hoping he gets torn apart.

00:19:29.100 He gives him the hydra,

00:19:29.840 hoping he'll get, you know,

00:19:30.880 killed by the blood of the hydra.

00:19:33.140 And then the Aromanthian boy,

00:19:34.620 doesn't think he's going to be able to capture that.

00:19:36.160 So then he realizes, well, look,

00:19:37.180 this guy's mega strong, right?

00:19:38.740 This guy's, he can catch anything.

00:19:41.280 He's brutally strong.

00:19:43.260 Maybe he's going to screw up

00:19:44.660 if we ask him to catch something

00:19:46.720 which is delicate and dainty.

00:19:48.740 And so he is hoping

00:19:50.240 that he's going to catch the Serenade hind,

00:19:51.940 but bring it back harmed,

00:19:53.560 that he's going to grab it

00:19:54.680 and grab a leg and break it and so on.

00:19:57.060 And in doing so,

00:19:58.860 annoy Artemis,

00:20:00.160 whose hind it is,

00:20:01.060 you know,

00:20:01.240 the goddess of the hunt.

00:20:02.420 So that labor changes him a bit.

00:20:06.460 You know,

00:20:06.620 he's,

00:20:07.000 it's fast,

00:20:07.700 it's speedy,

00:20:08.320 and it's delicate.

00:20:09.500 And Eurystheus is hoping

00:20:10.660 that he's going to accidentally kill it.

00:20:11.980 So that's,

00:20:12.380 that's the significance

00:20:13.180 of giving him that labor.

00:20:14.960 Things start to change.

00:20:16.300 It's, you know,

00:20:16.660 we can't just keep giving Heracles

00:20:18.160 the same task of essentially

00:20:19.800 beating up some other tough creature.

00:20:22.280 They begin to change,

00:20:23.580 the labors change.

00:20:24.840 So that's the challenge

00:20:25.640 of the Serenade hind.

00:20:26.600 How do we catch this thing

00:20:27.800 who,

00:20:29.000 you know,

00:20:29.560 its legs are so delicate.

00:20:31.220 If we grab it too hard,

00:20:32.460 it's going to crush it,

00:20:33.460 kill it,

00:20:33.800 break it,

00:20:34.280 and annoy the goddess.

00:20:36.060 So yeah,

00:20:36.200 he couldn't just rely on brute strength.

00:20:38.300 He had to,

00:20:39.040 he had a little usable,

00:20:39.980 a little cunning.

00:20:41.440 Before,

00:20:41.980 before we go on to the next one,

00:20:43.340 let's stick with the,

00:20:44.220 the animal,

00:20:44.860 the beast one.

00:20:45.540 The boar is interesting

00:20:46.500 because you say

00:20:47.320 he gets some help

00:20:48.540 from some Sinatars.

00:20:49.620 And one of them,

00:20:50.160 one of these Sinatars

00:20:50.620 is like an old friend of Hercules.

00:20:52.500 I think that's actually

00:20:53.280 in the Disney movie,

00:20:54.160 right?

00:20:54.360 Like,

00:20:54.700 there's like,

00:20:56.180 the Danny DeVito.

00:20:57.560 Yeah,

00:20:58.060 the Danny DeVito character.

00:20:59.300 Right,

00:21:00.000 right,

00:21:00.400 right.

00:21:00.780 But what's interesting there,

00:21:01.920 there's this weird dynamic

00:21:03.520 where there's some other Sinatars

00:21:05.000 there that were helping him.

00:21:06.460 And one of the Sinatars

00:21:07.720 basically has to give up

00:21:08.640 his immortality

00:21:09.600 to help Hercules

00:21:10.960 complete the labor.

00:21:12.740 Yeah,

00:21:13.100 so I,

00:21:13.580 I took some liberties

00:21:14.600 with the story.

00:21:15.560 There's three Centaurs

00:21:16.600 involved in this.

00:21:17.340 There's Pholus,

00:21:18.540 who's Hercules' friend.

00:21:20.500 There's Chiron,

00:21:21.300 who's a kind of

00:21:21.960 sophisticated Centaur

00:21:23.260 that smells the meat

00:21:24.820 and the,

00:21:25.280 and the wine

00:21:26.140 that they're drinking.

00:21:27.240 And Nessus,

00:21:27.860 who's this rather scruffy,

00:21:29.160 scrappy,

00:21:29.680 sadistic,

00:21:30.780 unpleasant Centaur.

00:21:31.820 So the three of,

00:21:32.500 he's basically saying,

00:21:33.340 how do I catch this boar?

00:21:34.360 It's too fast.

00:21:35.340 And Chiron,

00:21:36.220 being very wise,

00:21:37.080 tells him,

00:21:37.500 well,

00:21:37.540 it's a four-legged animal,

00:21:38.600 right?

00:21:39.580 Chase it up the mountain

00:21:40.640 where the snow's thicker

00:21:41.960 and its belly

00:21:42.660 will get stuck in the snow.

00:21:44.640 And in telling this story,

00:21:46.000 they're all sort of

00:21:46.620 getting drunk

00:21:47.220 and drinking too much wine.

00:21:49.180 And I can't remember

00:21:49.920 who it is in the story,

00:21:50.580 but one of them

00:21:51.080 knocks over the quiver

00:21:52.100 of arrows

00:21:52.660 that were dipped

00:21:53.840 in the Hydra's blood,

00:21:54.960 which we know is toxic.

00:21:56.760 And an arrow

00:21:57.400 happens to fall

00:21:58.480 in Chiron's hoof.

00:22:00.620 And because Chiron

00:22:01.540 is immortal,

00:22:02.800 he's going to die.

00:22:04.300 Well,

00:22:04.420 he's not going to die.

00:22:05.100 He's going to be

00:22:05.820 in perpetual pain.

00:22:07.360 So he begs

00:22:08.440 to be killed.

00:22:09.540 He begs to the gods

00:22:10.460 to kill him.

00:22:10.940 And of course,

00:22:11.420 Hera being the sadistic,

00:22:12.460 awful goddess

00:22:13.620 that she is,

00:22:15.220 basically says to Chiron,

00:22:16.520 there's only one person

00:22:17.340 that I will allow

00:22:18.200 to take your life

00:22:19.240 and that must be Hercules.

00:22:20.880 So now Hercules

00:22:21.620 has to kill

00:22:22.460 the centaur

00:22:23.480 that has advised him

00:22:24.440 and helped him.

00:22:25.240 You know,

00:22:25.400 it can't be Nessus,

00:22:26.240 this horrible,

00:22:27.500 revolting centaur.

00:22:28.580 It has to be the person

00:22:29.560 that's helped him.

00:22:30.280 And again,

00:22:31.200 depending on your interpretation

00:22:32.200 of the story,

00:22:32.980 that moves us forward.

00:22:34.200 What does that do to Hercules?

00:22:35.340 How does that affect him?

00:22:36.620 What are his responsibilities now?

00:22:38.340 You know,

00:22:38.500 his actions are going

00:22:39.240 to have consequences

00:22:40.100 for people that are

00:22:40.840 around him.

00:22:41.920 So yeah,

00:22:42.440 things change again there.

00:22:43.860 But yeah,

00:22:44.320 so I mean,

00:22:44.720 how did you see

00:22:45.800 that Brett out of interest?

00:22:46.700 What were your

00:22:47.120 sort of interpretations

00:22:48.120 of that one?

00:22:49.720 So to me,

00:22:50.420 I didn't really focus

00:22:51.300 on the fact

00:22:51.780 that Hercules had to kill.

00:22:53.420 It was more like

00:22:54.220 Hercules had,

00:22:55.580 in a way,

00:22:56.000 kind of had to abandon him.

00:22:58.380 And I think that's happened.

00:23:00.080 You have people

00:23:00.640 who help you,

00:23:02.700 but then,

00:23:03.580 I don't know,

00:23:03.840 for whatever reason,

00:23:04.640 they can't go on with you.

00:23:06.540 And in order for you

00:23:07.500 to keep going,

00:23:08.240 I mean,

00:23:08.560 you have to leave them behind.

00:23:09.480 And there's a lot of guilt

00:23:11.500 and conflict about that.

00:23:13.860 We're going to take a quick break

00:23:14.600 for your words

00:23:15.040 from our sponsors.

00:23:18.180 And now back to the show.

00:23:20.100 So after he fights

00:23:21.320 these mythical beasts,

00:23:22.620 there's the next one,

00:23:23.600 it's the stables.

00:23:26.940 Yeah,

00:23:27.360 the Aegean stables.

00:23:28.200 The Aegean stables.

00:23:29.220 And you point out in the book

00:23:30.580 that for the Greeks,

00:23:32.060 when they read this,

00:23:33.480 they would say,

00:23:34.040 this is the turning point

00:23:34.800 for Hercules,

00:23:35.660 or a turning point.

00:23:37.040 So just to refresh,

00:23:38.580 what's going on in this labor

00:23:40.080 and how is it different

00:23:41.360 from the previous ones?

00:23:42.900 Okay,

00:23:43.320 so this one has no beast at all.

00:23:46.180 King Eurythia says,

00:23:47.120 right,

00:23:47.420 okay,

00:23:47.660 there's these stables

00:23:48.680 that are run by a guy

00:23:49.560 called King Orgeus.

00:23:51.040 It's had 30 years of manure

00:23:53.060 in these stables.

00:23:54.740 And you're going to go

00:23:55.520 and clean that up

00:23:56.620 and you're going to do it

00:23:57.840 in 24 hours.

00:23:59.420 So,

00:23:59.840 you know,

00:24:00.040 to my mind,

00:24:00.900 again,

00:24:01.340 people interpret it

00:24:02.160 in different ways,

00:24:02.560 but this is really

00:24:03.200 about humiliating him,

00:24:04.400 degrading him.

00:24:05.500 This isn't a feat of strength.

00:24:07.140 This is to degrade him

00:24:08.360 and to have him

00:24:09.100 sort of wallowing

00:24:10.780 in this,

00:24:11.380 you know,

00:24:11.840 awful sort of fecal matter.

00:24:13.620 And to sort of add insult

00:24:14.920 to injury,

00:24:15.600 King Orgeus is a bit

00:24:16.500 like Eurythia

00:24:17.040 in that he's,

00:24:17.960 you know,

00:24:18.480 higher up the hillside.

00:24:19.600 He's very well-to-do

00:24:20.580 and he won't even sell

00:24:22.740 the dung

00:24:23.720 to the farmers

00:24:24.480 that are beneath him

00:24:25.600 that might benefit

00:24:27.640 from some of this manure.

00:24:28.640 He's kind of been storing

00:24:29.560 this manure up

00:24:30.300 for 30 years.

00:24:31.860 So Hercules turns up

00:24:33.040 and he says,

00:24:33.800 yeah,

00:24:34.140 well,

00:24:34.280 good luck with that,

00:24:34.960 trying to clean that

00:24:35.660 up in 24 hours.

00:24:37.760 Go for it.

00:24:38.740 And this one,

00:24:39.360 I think,

00:24:39.560 is interesting

00:24:39.880 because it shows

00:24:40.520 that Hercules

00:24:41.000 is not simply

00:24:42.140 a strong man.

00:24:43.740 You know,

00:24:43.880 he's thought about this

00:24:45.000 and he says to the soldier

00:24:46.240 who offers him the spade

00:24:47.460 to start clearing it up,

00:24:49.000 he says,

00:24:49.300 no,

00:24:49.420 I don't need the spade.

00:24:51.080 And the soldier

00:24:51.620 looks at him

00:24:52.080 and thinks,

00:24:52.840 oh,

00:24:53.160 wow,

00:24:53.360 this guy's given up already.

00:24:55.360 But Hercules hasn't given up.

00:24:56.720 He starts to walk up

00:24:57.780 the hill

00:24:58.620 and he goes to an area

00:25:01.220 where two streams meet

00:25:02.540 and he sees

00:25:03.800 these massive boulders

00:25:05.060 that are holding back

00:25:05.940 the streams,

00:25:07.080 the rivers,

00:25:08.040 from the stables.

00:25:09.240 And with his strength,

00:25:10.020 he pushes those boulders apart.

00:25:12.020 The river re-diverts

00:25:13.460 and sluices out

00:25:14.440 the whole of the stables.

00:25:15.320 And in so doing,

00:25:17.160 not only does it clean

00:25:18.120 the stables,

00:25:19.480 it actually generates

00:25:21.120 manure for the farmers below.

00:25:23.180 And I think the Greeks

00:25:24.040 saw this as a turning point

00:25:25.200 because of two things.

00:25:27.340 One,

00:25:27.940 it showed that Hercules

00:25:28.940 wasn't just a strong man.

00:25:30.520 You know,

00:25:30.720 he was a thinker.

00:25:32.060 He could think laterally.

00:25:33.320 This was a cognitive,

00:25:34.480 you know,

00:25:34.680 really neat

00:25:35.460 bit of lateral thinking.

00:25:37.460 And secondly,

00:25:38.920 he's solving two problems

00:25:40.320 at once,

00:25:40.960 cleaning the stables,

00:25:41.920 but in so doing,

00:25:42.700 providing manure

00:25:43.360 for the communities below.

00:25:45.620 And certainly there's,

00:25:46.480 you know,

00:25:46.680 some suggestion

00:25:47.480 that the Greeks

00:25:48.000 saw this as a turning point

00:25:48.960 because up until that point,

00:25:51.020 you know,

00:25:51.440 maybe there was a sense,

00:25:52.520 well,

00:25:52.820 okay,

00:25:53.660 this guy's killed

00:25:54.560 his wife and children,

00:25:55.440 right?

00:25:55.640 Maybe we want these labors

00:25:56.700 to kill him off.

00:25:57.340 He's a murderer.

00:25:58.100 He's a berserker.

00:25:58.800 He's lost his mind.

00:25:59.660 He's traumatized.

00:26:00.840 He shouldn't be around

00:26:01.520 any longer.

00:26:02.100 Oh,

00:26:02.280 hang on a minute.

00:26:03.240 No,

00:26:03.480 he's thought about other people.

00:26:05.160 He has,

00:26:05.720 going back to the Chiron thing

00:26:06.780 and the Nessas thing,

00:26:07.540 maybe he's learned

00:26:08.320 that his actions

00:26:08.960 have a consequence.

00:26:10.600 And he's,

00:26:11.020 you know,

00:26:11.180 I think he's the everyday man.

00:26:13.880 In fact,

00:26:14.240 when plays were done

00:26:16.840 of Hercules,

00:26:17.580 there's some suggestion

00:26:18.340 that a lot of the guys

00:26:19.080 that would play him

00:26:19.680 wouldn't necessarily be

00:26:20.940 your regular thespian actor.

00:26:23.240 They were boxers.

00:26:24.120 They were sort of

00:26:25.400 more brutish,

00:26:26.380 common men

00:26:26.960 that had a connection

00:26:27.880 to the working classes

00:26:29.600 and were,

00:26:30.220 you know,

00:26:30.500 seen as put upon.

00:26:31.600 So I think it's a real

00:26:32.800 turning point

00:26:33.440 because he's using his brain,

00:26:34.760 he's lateral thinking

00:26:35.600 and he's thinking of others.

00:26:37.220 That's at least

00:26:37.780 how I see it.

00:26:38.480 So one thing

00:26:40.080 that I saw

00:26:40.640 as I was reading that,

00:26:41.900 you know,

00:26:42.080 going back to that,

00:26:43.020 like the labor

00:26:44.160 was designed

00:26:44.540 to humiliate him

00:26:45.320 and he went off,

00:26:46.620 it was this conquering hero.

00:26:48.240 And I think that's happened to,

00:26:49.920 it happens to everybody

00:26:50.520 in their life

00:26:51.160 at some point.

00:26:51.580 Like they have a period

00:26:52.580 in their life

00:26:53.260 where they have a lot

00:26:53.680 of success

00:26:54.240 and it's like,

00:26:55.660 I did that on my own,

00:26:56.900 but then something happens

00:26:58.420 and you lose your job

00:26:59.860 and you're forced

00:27:01.780 to metaphorically

00:27:03.700 clean up manure.

00:27:05.540 You don't want to do it,

00:27:07.220 but you know

00:27:08.260 you have to do it.

00:27:09.120 And like Hercules,

00:27:09.860 he,

00:27:10.300 it wasn't beneath him,

00:27:11.920 but he decided,

00:27:13.100 well,

00:27:13.380 I'm going to,

00:27:13.700 if I have to do this,

00:27:14.360 I'm going to make

00:27:14.680 the best of it.

00:27:15.740 So that's,

00:27:16.300 that's the takeaway

00:27:16.780 I got from it.

00:27:17.380 It was like,

00:27:17.900 he's going into a valley.

00:27:19.100 Like he,

00:27:19.500 he went from being

00:27:21.320 this amazing,

00:27:22.220 strong guy

00:27:22.940 to having,

00:27:24.640 just going into this valley,

00:27:26.120 but he made the best of it.

00:27:28.320 Yeah.

00:27:28.880 Yeah.

00:27:29.200 I mean,

00:27:29.560 yeah,

00:27:30.240 I think,

00:27:30.640 I think you're right.

00:27:31.480 I think it's a perfectly,

00:27:32.240 you know,

00:27:33.240 legitimate way to see it.

00:27:34.440 You know,

00:27:34.660 we're all,

00:27:34.940 we all have times

00:27:35.680 where we're low,

00:27:36.460 don't we?

00:27:36.840 But I think,

00:27:37.660 you know,

00:27:38.120 I mean,

00:27:38.560 did you see it as this,

00:27:39.460 this point where he's rising a bit

00:27:41.040 or,

00:27:41.440 I mean,

00:27:42.160 you sort of seem to be

00:27:42.900 intimating that,

00:27:43.520 that he was,

00:27:44.720 he accepted the fact

00:27:46.040 he's going to kind of

00:27:46.860 have to do this,

00:27:47.800 you know?

00:27:48.420 Yeah.

00:27:48.900 Yeah.

00:27:49.260 Like he was,

00:27:50.000 he was,

00:27:50.220 he's capable of doing great things,

00:27:51.540 but now he has to do this,

00:27:52.600 this really just sort of donkey job

00:27:54.120 that no one wants to do,

00:27:55.560 but he,

00:27:56.380 he does it anyways.

00:27:57.160 He doesn't,

00:27:57.640 it's not beneath them.

00:27:58.620 Yeah,

00:27:58.860 absolutely.

00:27:59.520 Yeah.

00:27:59.720 I think,

00:28:00.000 I guess what you're saying is,

00:28:01.480 well,

00:28:01.600 I'm not going out there

00:28:02.400 to go and defeat a beast.

00:28:03.560 You know,

00:28:03.780 I'm,

00:28:03.960 I'm happy to do this job.

00:28:05.060 I can,

00:28:05.600 I can suck that up.

00:28:06.740 Yeah.

00:28:07.200 But he's inventive in dealing with it.

00:28:08.980 I get what you're saying.

00:28:09.840 Yeah.

00:28:10.040 A hundred percent.

00:28:10.480 I agree.

00:28:11.080 I agree.

00:28:11.320 I can imagine this happening

00:28:12.480 with veterans too.

00:28:13.440 I mean,

00:28:13.580 one thing you hear veterans talk about

00:28:15.360 is when they're in a war zone,

00:28:18.660 they feel like competent

00:28:19.680 and they feel like,

00:28:20.640 this is what I'm,

00:28:21.240 I'm made to do.

00:28:22.500 I'm,

00:28:22.920 I'm excellent at this.

00:28:23.760 So they're like Hercules

00:28:24.500 fighting the beast.

00:28:25.680 And then they come back

00:28:26.560 to civilian life,

00:28:27.580 which is a lot more mundane,

00:28:29.860 a lot more boring.

00:28:31.620 And a lot of them struggle with that

00:28:34.140 and they have to,

00:28:34.820 they have to use that lateral thing.

00:28:36.640 That's interesting.

00:28:37.100 Yeah.

00:28:37.220 I'd never thought of it that way,

00:28:38.440 but I agree.

00:28:39.220 I think that makes sense.

00:28:40.360 You know,

00:28:40.580 the coming back is what they struggle with

00:28:42.400 more than the combat bit.

00:28:44.660 Often,

00:28:45.560 you know,

00:28:45.760 you'll hear stories.

00:28:46.720 I'm sure you've heard them many times

00:28:47.920 Brett before where,

00:28:48.840 you know,

00:28:49.300 these,

00:28:49.660 these vets are walking around a supermarket

00:28:51.080 and it's like,

00:28:51.480 this is just surreal,

00:28:52.720 you know,

00:28:53.900 but that's the mundane nature of it.

00:28:56.000 And that,

00:28:56.180 that ability to be creative,

00:28:57.660 I guess,

00:28:58.120 and adapt,

00:28:58.860 you know,

00:28:59.580 is,

00:28:59.840 is going to help in that regard.

00:29:01.000 I agree.

00:29:01.540 I think that's,

00:29:02.080 that's an interesting viewpoint for sure.

00:29:04.080 Yeah.

00:29:04.500 So the next labor,

00:29:05.500 he has to fight a bunch of birds,

00:29:07.360 but we're going to talk about that one

00:29:08.080 didn't really call to me for some,

00:29:09.280 whatever reason.

00:29:10.360 I'm not sure why,

00:29:11.600 but so let's,

00:29:12.160 let's move right to the,

00:29:13.000 the Cretan bull.

00:29:14.280 Okay.

00:29:15.180 Yeah.

00:29:15.380 That calls to me for some reason.

00:29:16.640 So tell us about the Cretan bull.

00:29:17.960 What was going on?

00:29:18.560 Was this just another bull,

00:29:19.560 like animal just causing havoc.

00:29:21.500 If we,

00:29:21.660 if we sort of talk about the lion as being

00:29:23.420 maybe a suicide mission,

00:29:25.020 this is crazy.

00:29:25.860 Why the hell is he doing it?

00:29:26.840 And then he starts to triumph and,

00:29:28.320 you know,

00:29:29.220 Eurystheus tries to humiliate him with the,

00:29:31.260 the Orgean stables.

00:29:32.660 And okay,

00:29:33.300 now we're,

00:29:33.660 now we're starting to win.

00:29:34.800 You know,

00:29:34.960 our hero seems to be doing pretty well now.

00:29:37.100 And he's pretty ballsy in this one because he just goes up to King Minos.

00:29:40.400 There's this rampaging bull that's destroying everything.

00:29:42.880 And he just takes it head on.

00:29:44.520 You know,

00:29:44.660 it literally is grab the bull by the horns.

00:29:46.520 He knows he hasn't got arms big enough to get,

00:29:48.400 grab it around the neck.

00:29:49.560 So,

00:29:50.160 you know,

00:29:50.540 it's pretty simple labor.

00:29:51.560 This straight in there.

00:29:53.380 Wham grabs the bull by the horns,

00:29:56.080 leverages it to the ground by using his body weight on one side,

00:29:59.180 ties it up and brings it back to Eurystheus.

00:30:01.440 It's pretty simple.

00:30:02.480 And I think what is interesting to me about this,

00:30:06.640 cause you know,

00:30:07.400 I do a load of stuff on critical lens and decision-making the warning sign

00:30:12.180 here for me,

00:30:14.040 for Hercules is this is starting to maybe feel a bit too comfortable and

00:30:19.780 confident.

00:30:20.600 And as we all know,

00:30:21.740 once you start having that,

00:30:24.440 I wouldn't say hubristic sense of self-worth dangers on the horizon.

00:30:29.200 So,

00:30:30.360 you know,

00:30:30.580 in fact,

00:30:31.080 in the,

00:30:31.340 in the bird story,

00:30:33.180 you know,

00:30:33.380 we get some hints that Hera is whispering to Eurystheus saying,

00:30:36.220 you know,

00:30:36.520 let him have a few,

00:30:37.320 let him win a few,

00:30:38.360 and it'll be all the more delightful when we crush him.

00:30:41.000 So the bull one is literally taking it straight by the horns and getting on

00:30:45.260 with the job and bringing it back to Eurystheus.

00:30:47.680 And then things start to change slightly after that.

00:30:50.840 Yeah.

00:30:51.400 Yeah.

00:30:51.600 So after that,

00:30:52.480 he has to go corral some mares of Diomedes.

00:30:55.920 Yes.

00:30:56.260 The flesh,

00:30:56.780 flesh eating mares of Diomedes.

00:30:58.800 Yeah.

00:30:59.140 Yeah.

00:30:59.460 And he brings along a friend too.

00:31:01.620 He does.

00:31:02.040 Yeah.

00:31:02.500 So,

00:31:02.780 so again,

00:31:03.380 you know,

00:31:03.660 we're sort of harking back to the,

00:31:05.100 the,

00:31:05.280 the,

00:31:05.600 the,

00:31:05.740 the centaur story in that he brings this younger soldier with him,

00:31:09.120 guy called Abderus,

00:31:09.940 who's a,

00:31:10.500 a farrier and an Osler deals with horses.

00:31:13.660 And Eurystheus asked him to go and get these,

00:31:16.600 these,

00:31:17.080 these horses from this pretty awful,

00:31:19.180 sadistic character called Diomedes.

00:31:20.880 And I,

00:31:21.240 you know,

00:31:21.420 I took some liberties with Diomedes.

00:31:23.000 I made him a kind of very sadistic Aquiline type of character who,

00:31:27.260 who,

00:31:27.840 you know,

00:31:28.320 was treating his horses badly.

00:31:30.200 So that so badly that they hate humans.

00:31:32.340 That the only thing that they are satiated by or calmed by is eating the flesh of human

00:31:37.040 beings.

00:31:37.380 So again,

00:31:38.700 Hercules being Hercules goes straight up to Diomedes and says,

00:31:41.460 look,

00:31:41.600 I want your horses and you know,

00:31:43.960 I'll fight you for them.

00:31:45.000 And if I win,

00:31:45.840 if you fall to the floor first,

00:31:47.800 I'm going to have them.

00:31:48.960 But if you win,

00:31:49.880 you can have my boat,

00:31:51.240 you can have my Nemean line,

00:31:53.600 you can have my hydra,

00:31:54.520 you can have all this stuff.

00:31:55.560 So they agreed to fight.

00:31:56.740 And of course,

00:31:57.180 Diomedes being much more slippery,

00:31:59.260 insidious,

00:32:00.220 deceptive,

00:32:00.820 and not as forthright and overt as Hercules,

00:32:05.160 you know,

00:32:05.760 without giving too much of the game away.

00:32:07.380 Something goes really badly wrong where we lose after us,

00:32:10.520 which again,

00:32:11.860 you know,

00:32:12.260 how responsible is Hercules for this inability to see this deception that Diomedes has pulled on Hercules.

00:32:21.140 He still triumphs in that he gets the horses,

00:32:24.780 but there's significant loss.

00:32:27.620 Yeah.

00:32:27.660 He loses a friend in the process.

00:32:29.580 Yeah.

00:32:29.860 And not only does he lose him,

00:32:31.860 but he has to leave him behind.

00:32:34.000 Yeah.

00:32:34.200 And that probably resonates with vets,

00:32:37.720 right?

00:32:37.880 There's like the whole leave no man behind.

00:32:39.620 Even if they're dead,

00:32:40.920 you're going to bring that body back.

00:32:42.240 That's been around since ancient Greece.

00:32:44.760 Absolutely.

00:32:45.320 Yeah.

00:32:45.520 The body has always been an important thing to retrieve.

00:32:47.760 So,

00:32:48.680 you know,

00:32:49.020 two things that we have here,

00:32:50.340 complete mission,

00:32:51.400 which is,

00:32:51.840 you know,

00:32:52.760 big for soldiers,

00:32:53.680 as we know,

00:32:54.700 you know,

00:32:55.000 really important value system for soldiers is complete the mission,

00:32:58.480 coinciding with huge other sacred value,

00:33:01.980 two sacred values colliding here,

00:33:03.920 leave no man behind,

00:33:05.320 complete mission.

00:33:06.080 And when those sacred values collide and you can't have them both,

00:33:08.700 you're going to suffer loss.

00:33:09.740 There's going to be trauma.

00:33:10.600 It's going to be tough.

00:33:11.340 So does this labor elicit a lot of conversation from the vets you talk to?

00:33:16.520 Yeah.

00:33:16.860 It starts to get heavier then,

00:33:19.040 as you can imagine.

00:33:20.080 So,

00:33:20.420 you know,

00:33:20.700 with the Cretan bull,

00:33:21.680 we're seeing triumph.

00:33:22.980 We're seeing perseverance.

00:33:24.940 We're seeing rising.

00:33:26.100 We're seeing efficacy.

00:33:28.240 And now we're seeing,

00:33:29.660 God,

00:33:29.960 we didn't see this coming.

00:33:31.080 This is,

00:33:31.720 why didn't I see this?

00:33:32.880 Why didn't I think outside the box?

00:33:34.880 Why didn't I think a bit more laterally?

00:33:36.620 Why,

00:33:36.960 why didn't I consider that people have more sinister motivations?

00:33:42.640 And just because I'm forthright and direct and where my heart on my sleeve

00:33:47.380 doesn't mean I should imagine everyone else's.

00:33:49.880 I need to start thinking a bit wider than my own small orbit of,

00:33:54.120 of operating,

00:33:54.900 because again,

00:33:55.860 this isn't just about me.

00:33:57.360 It's going to affect the people around me.

00:33:59.180 So another labor after that,

00:34:00.200 this one's interesting because it's requires more cunning and it's kind of

00:34:04.820 weird.

00:34:05.260 He's just,

00:34:05.660 he's supposed to get these apples and in order to get them,

00:34:09.440 he has to talk to Atlas.

00:34:11.460 Who's the guy who's holding up the earth.

00:34:14.860 So what,

00:34:15.900 what's going on there?

00:34:16.420 Like what,

00:34:16.880 what's the connection between the apples and Atlas?

00:34:19.060 And then what did Hercules have to do to get the apples?

00:34:22.940 Well,

00:34:23.080 so you're just says,

00:34:24.320 well,

00:34:24.860 you know,

00:34:25.260 we need,

00:34:25.600 you're going to need to do two more labors now.

00:34:27.140 So this is,

00:34:27.620 this is labor 11,

00:34:28.580 the apples of his verities.

00:34:29.880 And he thinks,

00:34:30.780 well,

00:34:30.840 this is completely impossible because I know that no mortal can even pick

00:34:35.400 these apples.

00:34:35.820 So even if Hercules manages to get past laid in the sit,

00:34:39.740 the serpent that never sleeps.

00:34:41.460 In fact,

00:34:41.620 there's a couple of different ways of telling this story,

00:34:43.520 but I chose this particular way.

00:34:45.640 So there's a serpent that never sleeps that guards the tree of the apples.

00:34:49.520 And even if he kills that snake,

00:34:51.160 it is physically impossible for a mortal to pick the apples.

00:34:55.260 So Hercules knowing this speaks to Atlas,

00:34:58.080 who's a Titan.

00:34:59.180 And he knows that the Titan can pick the apples.

00:35:01.900 And basically he uses a bit of deception on Atlas because he says,

00:35:05.620 look,

00:35:05.800 you know,

00:35:06.060 I will hold up the celestial spheres for you.

00:35:09.720 If you can go and pick these,

00:35:10.900 these apples and Atlas,

00:35:12.760 I mean,

00:35:13.160 for people that are aware of their Greek mythology was cursed to hold the

00:35:16.260 heavens up after the battle of the Titans and the Olympians by Zeus in

00:35:20.060 perpetuity.

00:35:21.360 So Atlas goes,

00:35:22.000 well,

00:35:22.080 this is,

00:35:22.540 this is pretty good gig going pick three apples.

00:35:24.640 And this guy's going to take the weight of the skies off me.

00:35:27.200 So of course he agrees,

00:35:28.840 goes across to the,

00:35:29.900 the,

00:35:30.200 the Hesperides picks the apples and comes back.

00:35:33.160 And he sort of says,

00:35:34.280 well,

00:35:34.540 you know,

00:35:34.760 how,

00:35:34.980 how are you getting on holding that?

00:35:36.500 And,

00:35:36.540 and Hercules says,

00:35:37.540 well,

00:35:37.640 it's pretty tough,

00:35:38.260 really.

00:35:38.580 It's so,

00:35:39.000 you know,

00:35:39.660 how,

00:35:40.180 how did you manage it?

00:35:41.120 How did you not manage to do your shoulders in?

00:35:43.480 And Atlas says,

00:35:44.060 well,

00:35:44.160 you need to use your legs more effectively.

00:35:46.100 You know,

00:35:46.280 you're not,

00:35:46.600 you're not holding it right.

00:35:47.880 Let me show you,

00:35:48.640 which of course then Hercules allows him to take the celestial skies back.

00:35:52.640 Bang.

00:35:53.020 Off we go.

00:35:53.640 Thanks for the apples.

00:35:54.720 Ta-ra.

00:35:55.060 See you later.

00:35:56.100 So now we're seeing,

00:35:57.900 you know,

00:35:58.640 has Hercules learned from the mares of Diomedes and the Aegean stables and,

00:36:03.900 you know,

00:36:04.380 with Chiron,

00:36:05.140 Pholos and Nessus that you need to realize that other people are going to be

00:36:09.020 deceptive and you need to be a little bit more cunning.

00:36:11.820 You know,

00:36:11.980 I think again,

00:36:12.580 this is showing some,

00:36:13.480 some degree of learning.

00:36:15.580 Yeah.

00:36:15.640 And I think there's a point in every man's life where you have to,

00:36:17.940 you realize you have to have some kind of,

00:36:19.380 and I think we usually typically think of it as negative,

00:36:21.240 but I think that you can,

00:36:22.680 it doesn't have to be outright lying or being deceptive,

00:36:25.720 but it's a matter of being strategic with your decision-making.

00:36:31.160 Yeah.

00:36:31.340 So,

00:36:31.560 I mean,

00:36:31.700 it's an interesting one.

00:36:32.400 So,

00:36:32.620 you know,

00:36:33.000 when I was sort of looking at this,

00:36:34.360 I was thinking,

00:36:34.820 well,

00:36:34.900 do I like that about Hercules that he's actually kind of duped this guy,

00:36:38.660 but at the same time,

00:36:40.480 you know,

00:36:40.740 is he only duped him because of Atlas's own hubris,

00:36:43.520 narcissism and willingness to sort of dupe him?

00:36:46.240 You know,

00:36:47.000 when you,

00:36:47.780 when you're dealing with cunning people,

00:36:49.300 maybe you do have to have a degree of cunning yourself.

00:36:51.760 And actually technically,

00:36:53.600 you know,

00:36:53.960 Hercules never lied to him.

00:36:55.600 He didn't say he was going to take the heavens forever.

00:36:58.080 So,

00:36:58.660 but I think,

00:36:59.580 I mean,

00:36:59.800 how uncomfortable did you feel with this kind of deceptive element of it,

00:37:04.300 Brett?

00:37:04.560 What was your sort of feeling?

00:37:05.660 Yeah.

00:37:06.060 I mean,

00:37:06.300 I'm always like,

00:37:07.660 there's always something that's uncomfortable about strategia,

00:37:11.080 like being strategic.

00:37:11.900 Cause there is an element of any,

00:37:13.620 any type of strategy.

00:37:14.300 There is often an element of deception.

00:37:17.880 Even if you're not outright lying,

00:37:19.740 you are not,

00:37:20.300 you're like withholding information that might benefit the other person to know.

00:37:25.480 And I'm sure you see this in interrogation,

00:37:28.380 right?

00:37:28.640 Like you're not,

00:37:29.340 you're not going to lie to somebody,

00:37:31.380 but you might not say everything,

00:37:33.440 you know,

00:37:34.180 and you might use that to your advantage possibly.

00:37:37.600 Yeah,

00:37:37.980 it's an interesting one.

00:37:38.800 I mean,

00:37:39.060 you know,

00:37:39.820 I think we may have spoken about this last time when we were talking about

00:37:42.400 rapport.

00:37:42.880 I mean,

00:37:43.000 certainly with our interrogators and interviewers,

00:37:45.060 we say,

00:37:45.340 you've got to be really direct and honest here,

00:37:47.860 even if you're being honest about the things that you will withhold

00:37:51.100 information on.

00:37:52.380 So,

00:37:52.820 I mean,

00:37:53.080 you know,

00:37:53.300 if you're,

00:37:53.640 if you're interviewing suspects,

00:37:54.800 you're not going to give them all of the forensic information that you

00:37:57.640 have simply because one of your objectives as an interrogator is to

00:38:01.820 test the veracity of their story.

00:38:04.320 So if you give absolutely everything,

00:38:06.100 you are allowing someone that might be lying to you to,

00:38:10.380 you know,

00:38:11.160 make some circuitous story about to explain the reason why their fingerprint

00:38:15.880 is on the knife.

00:38:17.520 So,

00:38:17.780 but are,

00:38:18.260 you know,

00:38:18.520 going back to the interrogation stuff,

00:38:19.840 we always say to our interrogators,

00:38:21.400 be overt and honest about the fact that there are going to be some things

00:38:25.060 that you withhold.

00:38:26.400 And as long as you're doing that,

00:38:27.720 it doesn't have that kind of pernicious,

00:38:30.340 insidious kind of deception.

00:38:31.980 It's,

00:38:32.220 it's,

00:38:32.740 you know,

00:38:33.000 you're,

00:38:33.240 you're nailing your,

00:38:34.160 your colors to the mask,

00:38:35.200 but not being played for a fool either.

00:38:37.780 You know,

00:38:38.140 you're being upfront about the methods that you're using,

00:38:40.480 but that said,

00:38:41.640 I mean,

00:38:41.800 I think there is something a little bit uncomfortable about this,

00:38:44.480 this particular labor with Hercules because there's something somewhat

00:38:48.540 cunning about it in a slightly roundabout way where he has,

00:38:52.900 you know,

00:38:53.260 not quite been honest about how he's,

00:38:55.520 he's produced it.

00:38:56.800 Yeah.

00:38:57.080 And I'm sure we all face decisions like that.

00:38:59.240 I mean,

00:38:59.400 going back to you,

00:38:59.880 you're using this to help first responders,

00:39:01.780 military guys work through decision-making there.

00:39:04.220 You're always going to be faced with decisions that have ethical quandaries

00:39:07.320 where there's competing interest.

00:39:09.380 Well,

00:39:09.560 I got to complete the mission,

00:39:10.760 but along the way,

00:39:11.960 in order for me to do that,

00:39:12.840 I may have to violate this other ethical standard.

00:39:16.200 And what do you do in that situation?

00:39:18.980 Well,

00:39:19.020 that's right.

00:39:19.460 You know,

00:39:20.000 where it always gets difficult and,

00:39:21.980 you know,

00:39:22.080 I'm working with a colleague on this at the moment in relation to our work on

00:39:25.460 decision-making,

00:39:26.240 what we find is where,

00:39:28.200 you know,

00:39:28.360 the difference between what we call secular and sacred values.

00:39:31.040 So a sacred value is a non-negotiable value.

00:39:34.260 You know,

00:39:34.400 we were talking earlier about,

00:39:35.660 you know,

00:39:35.860 sometimes in the,

00:39:36.620 in the interviews that we've conducted with soldiers,

00:39:38.820 what you will find is a really sacred,

00:39:41.120 completely non-negotiable value is you do not leave your men behind.

00:39:45.420 But another sacred value might be,

00:39:47.800 and often is with soldiers,

00:39:48.920 you must complete the mission.

00:39:50.440 And the problem is where,

00:39:51.360 where you,

00:39:51.860 where you can't have both of them.

00:39:53.480 What you often end up with is what we call decision inertial or redundant

00:39:57.060 deliberation,

00:39:57.900 which is constant chewing over the problem to the point where you are chewing

00:40:02.800 over it for so long that you don't make any decision at all.

00:40:05.880 But that is where decision-making gets really difficult,

00:40:08.060 where you have to give up one of those sacred values.

00:40:11.160 And that is a tough ask.

00:40:13.980 Okay.

00:40:14.020 So Hercules finishes this labor.

00:40:16.000 The next one,

00:40:16.440 he has to go to the underworld,

00:40:17.760 correct?

00:40:18.720 Yes.

00:40:19.100 He's,

00:40:19.500 he meets Hades and he has to deal with the three headed dog Cerberus.

00:40:23.080 Yeah.

00:40:23.680 And what was the labor there?

00:40:24.920 What was he,

00:40:25.300 what was,

00:40:25.820 what was his mission there?

00:40:27.200 Well,

00:40:27.540 so this sort of takes us full circle.

00:40:29.460 Labor one is,

00:40:30.300 is killing the lion.

00:40:31.360 And now we're right back to a kind of another beast.

00:40:33.560 He's,

00:40:33.900 he's told by Eurystheus,

00:40:35.180 bring,

00:40:35.620 bring the dog back,

00:40:36.400 bring the three headed dog back that guards the underworld,

00:40:39.500 get him off Hades.

00:40:40.320 He's who's the Lord of the underworld,

00:40:42.500 but bring the dog back alive.

00:40:44.520 So unlike the lion,

00:40:45.920 well,

00:40:46.360 like the lion,

00:40:47.020 he's got to defeat it without weapons.

00:40:48.820 He's not allowed any weapons,

00:40:50.260 but this time he's not allowed to kill it.

00:40:52.720 So,

00:40:53.140 I mean,

00:40:53.380 I wrote this in a very particular way that hasn't necessarily been written this

00:40:57.840 way before.

00:40:59.380 So,

00:40:59.580 you know,

00:41:00.120 often what we do with this 12th labor,

00:41:02.060 we,

00:41:02.280 we will ask the prompt,

00:41:03.700 you know,

00:41:04.080 how is this different from labor one?

00:41:06.000 What have we learned?

00:41:06.780 What,

00:41:07.020 what is,

00:41:07.500 what is Hercules doing that is different with the dog that he didn't do with

00:41:11.540 the lion?

00:41:12.760 And he can't kill.

00:41:13.300 I mean,

00:41:13.380 that's the big one.

00:41:13.960 You can't,

00:41:14.280 you can't just kill it.

00:41:15.960 Yeah.

00:41:16.440 So,

00:41:16.900 well,

00:41:17.340 let's ask you,

00:41:18.140 Brett,

00:41:18.360 you know,

00:41:18.520 how has,

00:41:18.880 how has Hercules changed now?

00:41:20.480 What's,

00:41:21.100 you know,

00:41:21.220 if you were comparing these two labors together,

00:41:23.720 what do you think he's learned?

00:41:25.140 How do you think he's changed?

00:41:26.920 So he's likely,

00:41:27.780 he's gained some confidence.

00:41:29.000 He's no,

00:41:29.560 he,

00:41:29.740 he,

00:41:30.000 he knows what he's capable of doing.

00:41:32.120 And he,

00:41:32.720 in the process too,

00:41:33.460 he's learned that he can't just rely on brute force.

00:41:36.900 He has to use his mind.

00:41:38.680 He has used that lateral thinking,

00:41:40.000 sometimes cunning.

00:41:41.260 I think if,

00:41:42.260 if this was his first labor,

00:41:43.860 you know,

00:41:44.680 getting the dog,

00:41:45.740 I think his approach would have been just brute force.

00:41:48.620 I don't,

00:41:49.280 I think he realized that's not going to work here.

00:41:51.260 Like he,

00:41:51.720 he has that,

00:41:52.400 that wisdom that that's,

00:41:53.880 I can't do that here.

00:41:54.700 This isn't going to be the best approach.

00:41:56.920 Yeah.

00:41:57.280 And he certainly can't kill it.

00:41:58.740 I mean,

00:41:58.980 what is interesting to me about this is that he ends up actually stroking the dog,

00:42:04.060 you know,

00:42:05.500 and he brings it back through the streets of Tyrion's and back to Eurythus and parades the dog.

00:42:11.740 You know,

00:42:11.940 and I think everyone is,

00:42:13.420 I mean,

00:42:13.720 I've wrote a short little epilogue about how the people of Tyrion's were expecting to be sort of overawed and sort of praise Hercules for bringing the dog back.

00:42:23.640 And it would be some kind of amazing parade.

00:42:25.340 But I see Hercules bringing back this dog that he's restrained in quite a,

00:42:30.720 you know,

00:42:31.080 use a,

00:42:31.840 use his physical strength,

00:42:33.120 but for restraint and ends up kind of packing the dog and basically giving it a bit of a cuddle.

00:42:37.720 And this is a dog that has been designed to kill,

00:42:40.720 you know,

00:42:41.180 kill and hate and rip things asunder.

00:42:43.120 And actually in restraining it,

00:42:45.580 you know,

00:42:46.020 Hercules calms it.

00:42:47.160 And with the lion,

00:42:47.960 you know,

00:42:48.220 I was cautious to sort of give the view that he felt bad about killing it.

00:42:52.560 And here's he,

00:42:53.120 he's been able to restrain the animal without damaging it,

00:42:55.960 without hurting it,

00:42:57.080 without piercing it,

00:42:57.960 without killing it,

00:42:59.260 parades it through the streets of Tyrion's.

00:43:00.740 And both of them,

00:43:01.960 I see as kind of wounded animals,

00:43:04.740 wounded beasts that have come back.

00:43:06.180 And actually their walk through the streets of Tyrion's is to warn the local populace that actually,

00:43:12.580 this is what wounded people look like that you've put on the front line that have come back from difficult,

00:43:19.800 tough times.

00:43:20.660 This is not necessarily some major celebration.

00:43:23.820 Look at the state of us.

00:43:25.620 Beware.

00:43:26.300 Take this as a warning.

00:43:27.420 You know,

00:43:27.680 it's not some great celebration.

00:43:29.500 It's not some ticker tape parade.

00:43:31.400 It's a,

00:43:32.200 this is what the reality of war looks like.

00:43:34.300 And this is what the reality of being abused or beaten up or,

00:43:38.180 you know,

00:43:38.580 going through tough times looks like be warned.

00:43:41.280 No.

00:43:41.800 Yeah.

00:43:41.880 You can definitely get union with this,

00:43:43.960 right?

00:43:44.520 It's like the,

00:43:45.000 the dog is like the shadow and you know,

00:43:48.480 there's this idea,

00:43:49.180 I guess,

00:43:49.360 in Jung psychology or depth psychology,

00:43:51.540 like you had to do shadow work where you,

00:43:53.020 you confront your shadow.

00:43:55.700 That's sort of the dark side of you.

00:43:57.100 And,

00:43:57.360 but like in order to,

00:43:58.300 you have to like integrate it somehow.

00:43:59.580 You can't just beat it down.

00:44:01.100 You actually have to do what Hercules did,

00:44:03.460 restrain it,

00:44:04.100 but like pet,

00:44:04.860 like kind of sort of just being like,

00:44:07.480 wait,

00:44:07.680 what would we,

00:44:08.260 what would we call this?

00:44:08.900 Self-compassion maybe.

00:44:10.460 That's what I just came up with that on the fly.

00:44:13.920 So what are your thoughts on that?

00:44:17.000 Well,

00:44:17.380 you know,

00:44:17.880 I think,

00:44:18.260 you know,

00:44:18.460 walking into provocative territory here,

00:44:22.180 but,

00:44:22.380 but I mean,

00:44:23.060 I'm sure you get this with your podcast,

00:44:24.560 you know,

00:44:24.720 the name of your,

00:44:25.260 your podcast,

00:44:25.960 it doesn't preclude the idea that,

00:44:28.580 that women would listen to it.

00:44:30.660 But for me,

00:44:31.960 a lot of what the Hercules tale is about is about masculinity.

00:44:35.420 It's about masculinity in all its strength and in all its weaknesses,

00:44:40.300 because,

00:44:40.920 you know,

00:44:41.420 Hercules is worst points.

00:44:43.220 He's displaying what would conventionally be considered masculine attributes,

00:44:47.920 but the dark side,

00:44:49.080 the violent side,

00:44:49.980 the impulsive side,

00:44:50.960 the reckless side,

00:44:52.260 the inconsiderate side,

00:44:53.380 the joy in,

00:44:54.100 you know,

00:44:54.440 inflicting suffering on other people in violence.

00:44:57.180 But there are certain masculine attributes that are very admirable in,

00:45:01.260 in the character as well.

00:45:02.580 It is a tale about masculinity and it is a tale about trying to control that side of you

00:45:09.040 that is disproportionately hyper masculine,

00:45:13.300 but bad,

00:45:14.120 but embracing and celebrating those attributes,

00:45:16.920 which are masculine and admirable.

00:45:19.960 So,

00:45:20.280 you know,

00:45:20.640 for me,

00:45:21.380 that,

00:45:21.620 that piece with Cerberus is,

00:45:22.960 as you say,

00:45:23.420 the shadow piece of it,

00:45:24.540 it is a reflection of himself.

00:45:25.720 It is a dark side of himself.

00:45:27.720 And,

00:45:28.220 you know,

00:45:28.360 without going too deep into it,

00:45:29.660 the fact that he's restrained the dog is,

00:45:32.360 you know,

00:45:32.860 perhaps that tells us that,

00:45:34.940 you know,

00:45:35.140 he started to get a bit more comfortable with,

00:45:37.160 with certain masculine attributes that he can control and be a bit more guarded around.

00:45:42.420 All right.

00:45:42.500 So he completes the 12 labors.

00:45:44.380 What happens to him?

00:45:45.180 So,

00:45:45.300 as you said,

00:45:45.620 there's different versions of what happens to him after the 12 labors.

00:45:48.880 What,

00:45:49.100 what did,

00:45:49.720 what path did you take for the after,

00:45:51.940 after the 12 labors?

00:45:52.980 As I say,

00:45:53.720 you know,

00:45:54.040 I was less convinced just narratively.

00:45:56.680 I mean,

00:45:56.800 there's no right or wrong.

00:45:57.740 It's a story,

00:45:58.420 right?

00:45:58.640 But I,

00:45:58.920 I found it unconvincing that he would complete the 12 labors and then go on to kill his wife.

00:46:03.960 I thought it was a much more compelling story to tell it the other way where the labors emanate out from having killed his wife and children.

00:46:11.760 But then of course,

00:46:13.060 you know,

00:46:13.960 the weird thing is he completes the labors and you would think,

00:46:16.900 okay,

00:46:17.020 maybe he's really learned from this.

00:46:18.420 But then shortly afterwards,

00:46:19.600 he,

00:46:20.340 he enters an archery competition where his former teacher,

00:46:24.060 Euretus,

00:46:25.080 who is a bowman that taught Hercules when he was younger,

00:46:28.860 has a competition in which whoever wins the archery competition can have the hand of his daughter,

00:46:35.340 Aeoli.

00:46:36.360 And Hercules has always loved this woman from a very early age.

00:46:39.680 So he enters the competition.

00:46:41.700 Now,

00:46:41.920 you know,

00:46:42.580 Euretus had hoped and thought that the labors would also kill Hercules and that there would be no way that this violent,

00:46:48.860 abusive man that has already killed his entire family would be available to take part in the archery competition.

00:46:55.580 And yet he knows that Hercules is probably a better archer than him.

00:46:59.140 Anyway,

00:46:59.700 long story short,

00:47:01.460 Hercules does indeed enter the competition and does indeed beat Euretus,

00:47:05.820 who then says,

00:47:06.400 well,

00:47:06.480 actually I've,

00:47:07.280 I've changed it.

00:47:07.880 You can't have my daughter.

00:47:09.720 His son,

00:47:10.780 Iphetus then gets into an argument with Hercules and tragically Hercules loses his mind again and ends up killing Euretus' son,

00:47:19.260 Iphetus by throwing him off the battlements.

00:47:21.320 So once again,

00:47:22.140 we're kind of back to square one,

00:47:24.020 you know,

00:47:24.300 and for me,

00:47:24.980 that's kind of just,

00:47:26.140 just,

00:47:26.880 I mean,

00:47:27.080 when I was researching this and looking at this story,

00:47:29.020 I thought,

00:47:29.180 oh my God,

00:47:29.580 I can't believe he's gone backwards again to this crazy one impulsive act where he lost his mind,

00:47:35.940 you know,

00:47:36.160 perhaps for understandable reasons,

00:47:37.720 but he's gone back to that dark side of masculinity.

00:47:40.440 Maybe he hasn't learned from this and he's become violent again.

00:47:43.480 And now we're back to square one and now he gets more punishment.

00:47:46.820 And now Hermes' punishment for him is that he has to serve three years as a slave to a Lydian princess on Phalae.

00:47:54.140 I mean,

00:47:54.280 and so I think a takeaway there for just any,

00:47:57.920 just applying it to our lives or someone you're working with,

00:48:00.760 even if you go through some labor,

00:48:03.100 you think you're done,

00:48:04.180 right?

00:48:04.740 I'm done.

00:48:05.460 I've got this under control.

00:48:07.020 Like I,

00:48:07.400 you know,

00:48:07.800 people,

00:48:08.720 you know,

00:48:09.180 they go to therapy and they make some progress.

00:48:10.960 Like,

00:48:11.260 Hey,

00:48:11.860 my life's great.

00:48:12.700 And then they stop,

00:48:13.580 they stop going to therapy or they stop doing those things they know will keep them in a good place.

00:48:19.100 Man,

00:48:19.500 that can actually bring you back down and you have to start all over again.

00:48:22.620 Yeah.

00:48:24.260 A moment of madness can set you back.

00:48:26.260 As you say,

00:48:27.780 being a human being is work,

00:48:30.740 you know,

00:48:31.160 it's work all the time.

00:48:32.420 You're not off the hook.

00:48:33.380 You've got to be aware of your strengths and weaknesses of it.

00:48:36.000 So you're right,

00:48:37.360 Brett.

00:48:37.520 I think this is,

00:48:38.120 this is about,

00:48:38.780 well,

00:48:38.980 yeah,

00:48:39.160 just because you've done these labors doesn't mean you've stopped.

00:48:41.260 You have ongoing work to do and an ongoing responsibility.

00:48:43.900 And yes,

00:48:45.320 you can embrace your masculinity,

00:48:47.080 but be aware of the dark side of it as well.

00:48:50.720 Lawrence,

00:48:50.940 this has been a great conversation.

00:48:52.060 Where can people go to learn more about the book?

00:48:54.620 Well,

00:48:55.040 we have two versions that people can engage with on our ground truth website.

00:48:59.020 We actually have a oral reading of the book.

00:49:02.660 And so people can go to the ground truth website and click on project

00:49:06.000 Heracles,

00:49:07.040 and they will get an oral reading of all 12 labors.

00:49:09.460 You can actually take the labors and do some self-reflective analysis,

00:49:12.640 either with,

00:49:13.620 you know,

00:49:13.780 just on your own or with,

00:49:15.140 with teams or groups.

00:49:16.880 And as you said,

00:49:17.860 Brett,

00:49:17.980 I think it's got very general applicability to a whole bunch of people.

00:49:21.520 And also we have two versions of the book.

00:49:25.000 We have a slimmer version,

00:49:26.520 which is an A4 kind of glossy version,

00:49:28.960 which has the psychology workbook in it called the labors of Heracles,

00:49:32.300 which just has the labors.

00:49:34.180 And then I,

00:49:34.720 because I got so interested in it,

00:49:36.060 I wrote a short novella.

00:49:37.140 It's about 20,000 words,

00:49:38.560 which is called the life and death of Heracles.

00:49:40.780 So that has the 12 labors plus the things that led up to the labors and the

00:49:45.540 things that emanated after the labors,

00:49:47.400 right the way through to the death of Heracles as well.

00:49:51.220 Well,

00:49:51.360 Lawrence Allison,

00:49:51.920 thanks for your time.

00:49:52.400 It's been a pleasure.

00:49:53.460 Thank you so much,

00:49:54.080 Brett.

00:49:54.240 It's great to speak to you again.

00:49:55.860 My guest today was Lawrence Allison.

00:49:57.160 Today we discuss his new project around the 12,

00:49:59.180 labors of Hercules.

00:50:00.140 You can find more information about accessing both the oral and written

00:50:02.560 version of Lawrence's retellings of the labors of Hercules by checking out

00:50:05.640 our show notes at aom.is slash Hercules.

00:50:15.280 Well,

00:50:15.720 that wraps up another edition of the A1 podcast.

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The Art of Manliness - September 29, 2021

What the Labors of Hercules Can Teach You About Life and Masculinity

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