The Art of Manliness - When the Game Was War — Lessons From the Greatest NBA Season of All Time

00:00:00.000 Hey, this is Brett.

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00:00:24.040 Thanks again for the support.

00:00:25.260 And now on to the show.

00:00:30.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition

00:00:36.480 of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:38.520 While there may be some heated rivalries in today's NBA,

00:00:41.200 the ferocity of competition doesn't compare

00:00:43.140 to the hard-hitting contest that took place

00:00:45.120 during the 1987-1988 season,

00:00:48.360 when four rising and falling dynasties,

00:00:50.600 the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, and Bulls,

00:00:53.080 battled it out for supremacy.

00:00:54.780 Here to illuminate that epic era in basketball

00:00:57.000 and share what can be learned from it is Rich Cohen,

00:00:58.960 author of When the Game Was War,

00:01:01.540 the NBA's Greatest Season.

00:01:03.320 To the show, Rich makes the case

00:01:04.720 for why there's never been a season before or since

00:01:07.040 like the one that played out in 87 and 88.

00:01:10.000 And he profiles the players, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson,

00:01:13.320 Isaiah Thomas, and Michael Jordan,

00:01:15.100 who dominated that season and changed the game.

00:01:17.960 Along the way, we talk about the life lessons

00:01:19.800 that can be taken from these players and their teams,

00:01:22.000 including the rules legendary coach Phil Jackson

00:01:24.080 gave the Bulls,

00:01:25.180 which were inspired by the jazz musician Thelonious Monk.

00:01:27.820 After the show's over,

00:01:29.220 check out our show notes at aom.is slash NBA.

00:01:42.880 All right, Rich Cohen, welcome back to the show.

00:01:45.900 Thanks, great to be here.

00:01:47.260 So we had you on last time to talk about your dad,

00:01:49.360 Herbie Cohen,

00:01:50.140 the greatest negotiator in the world.

00:01:52.080 You got a new book out called When the Game Was War.

00:01:57.460 And in this book, this is a lot of fun.

00:01:59.700 I enjoyed reading this book

00:02:00.880 because right now I'm watching The Last Dance,

00:02:03.180 the Netflix docuseries about the Chicago Bulls,

00:02:06.300 that last season they had all together.

00:02:08.240 But in this book, you make the case

00:02:10.100 that the 1987-1988 basketball season

00:02:14.040 was the greatest season in NBA history.

00:02:17.620 Why that season?

00:02:18.620 Like, what's your case for that?

00:02:19.560 Well, the mathematical reason

00:02:23.920 is that the most future NBA Hall of Famers

00:02:27.340 were playing that season in NBA history.

00:02:30.720 Among them, the oldest being Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

00:02:33.580 and the youngest being either Scotty Pippen

00:02:36.620 or Reggie Miller,

00:02:37.600 touched the whole history of the NBA

00:02:39.060 because when Kareem started in the game,

00:02:41.800 there were guys that had played

00:02:42.840 since the beginning of the league in the 50s.

00:02:44.960 And when Reggie Miller retired,

00:02:46.820 he was playing with guys who just retired

00:02:48.540 like last year or this year even.

00:02:51.340 And also because you had at that time

00:02:53.440 four great NBA historic dynasties

00:02:56.860 all in different states of rise and fall

00:02:59.900 at the same time competing against each other,

00:03:02.920 ultimately in the playoffs and the finals.

00:03:04.700 And that was the Lakers, the Pistons,

00:03:07.340 the Bulls, and the Celtics.

00:03:09.720 And I sort of pitched it

00:03:11.080 as the Game of Thrones on the hard court.

00:03:14.400 I got very into Game of Thrones

00:03:15.600 and I thought this is sort of like four dynasties

00:03:18.240 and ultimately the future is going to belong

00:03:19.920 to the Bulls,

00:03:20.880 who's the kind of team off stage,

00:03:23.340 who is just starting to come into existence.

00:03:26.480 So to me, it was a moment

00:03:27.320 where you could see the whole history of the league

00:03:28.740 and the competition was so close and so intense.

00:03:32.040 It just never got better than that.

00:03:33.780 And I say that as somebody whose team,

00:03:36.240 the Bulls,

00:03:36.920 lost in the second round that year of the playoffs.

00:03:40.380 And what got you thinking,

00:03:41.060 I need to write a book about this

00:03:42.260 and talk about the history of this season?

00:03:45.300 Well, since I was a kid, I played sports.

00:03:47.620 My father was a basketball coach.

00:03:49.560 That's the connection with this.

00:03:51.080 I grew up sort of in the school of basketball

00:03:53.800 and everything that happens on the court

00:03:55.640 being analogous to life.

00:03:57.240 And I always had this sort of fantasy

00:03:59.060 of writing about all four major American sports.

00:04:02.540 And I've written a book about the Chicago Bears,

00:04:04.620 85 Bears called Monsters,

00:04:06.160 and a book about the Chicago Cubs

00:04:07.760 called Story of a Curse

00:04:09.620 and a book about my son's peewee hockey team

00:04:13.100 called Peewees.

00:04:14.380 And I wanted to write a book about basketball

00:04:16.420 and fulfill this sort of box set dream that I had.

00:04:19.600 And I first thought I'll write about the Bulls

00:04:21.900 because that's the team I grew up watching.

00:04:24.140 And then I realized it's very uninteresting in a way

00:04:27.260 to write a story about a team

00:04:28.480 that won six times over eight years.

00:04:30.760 That a lot of times when you get sports highlights,

00:04:34.220 what you miss is you miss how exciting it is in the moment.

00:04:39.280 So if you see a great shot from the past,

00:04:41.740 it might seem like nothing when you see it.

00:04:43.500 You don't get all the hubbub around it,

00:04:45.820 but it's the context of waiting and waiting and waiting.

00:04:48.720 And I wanted to focus on one season

00:04:51.020 to try to recapture the sort of drama

00:04:53.940 of what it's like to watch when you're a kid in real time.

00:04:57.400 And I sort of had this fantasy of it being like a nonfiction novel

00:05:01.420 about basketball and the intensity of competition.

00:05:05.560 So how old were you in 87, 88?

00:05:09.420 I was, geez, I was born in 68.

00:05:12.380 So I was just about to turn 20.

00:05:14.280 So how did you, when you decided, okay,

00:05:16.380 the 87, 88 season was the best season in NBA history.

00:05:19.840 How did you sort of suss out?

00:05:21.980 Well, am I just being nostalgic because I was 20

00:05:24.200 and like, it was great being 20.

00:05:25.880 Because for me, when I was a kid,

00:05:27.720 I always think the best time in baseball was the late 90s

00:05:31.180 or that mid 90s.

00:05:32.620 You had Ken Griffey Jr., Mark McDwyer, Frank Thomas.

00:05:36.200 And a lot of that's probably just nostalgia.

00:05:38.460 Because also during that time,

00:05:39.940 I was 14 and playing Super Nintendo.

00:05:43.320 Didn't have a care in the world.

00:05:45.100 Did you have to wrestle with that idea?

00:05:46.780 Am I just being nostalgic about youth?

00:05:49.380 I mean, it's definite a case of mistaken identity

00:05:52.460 in some case where like something was at its best in 1987, 88.

00:05:57.260 And it might've been the NBA or it might've been me.

00:06:00.360 You know, it's sort of like believing is seeing, you know?

00:06:03.600 So, but I do think there are certain objective ways

00:06:07.200 to look at it.

00:06:08.140 And I'm able to recognize that like the 1950s

00:06:12.160 and early 60s was the golden age of baseball.

00:06:14.940 Cause you had, you know, Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays

00:06:18.520 and Hank Aaron and Ernie Banks

00:06:21.140 and all these guys competing at the same time.

00:06:23.760 And it never really got to that concentration again,

00:06:26.600 even though that happened before I was born.

00:06:29.180 And I think that you can look at the NBA in the late 80s.

00:06:32.740 You might not pick that exact season,

00:06:34.500 but definitely look at those years and say,

00:06:37.840 look, you had Larry Bird's Boston Celtics.

00:06:40.160 And if you go around and ask old NBA guys,

00:06:42.660 they'll say that was maybe the best team of all time.

00:06:45.420 Then you have the Detroit Pistons who never get their due,

00:06:48.520 the bad boys, who I would argue

00:06:50.260 was as good as any of those teams.

00:06:51.880 And then you have the LA Lakers, Magic Johnson.

00:06:54.600 There's an HBO show about him right now, winning time.

00:06:58.180 And you have Magic Johnson, James Worthy,

00:07:00.620 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar with, you know,

00:07:02.960 Pat Riley as the coach all on one team,

00:07:05.100 playing in the forum at sort of the height of LA.

00:07:07.400 And then ultimately you have Michael Jordan,

00:07:09.440 who I argue is, I would argue,

00:07:11.400 is like the best athlete we've ever had in America.

00:07:15.460 And I just think it's possible to stand back

00:07:18.080 and look at those teams in that season.

00:07:20.220 And in fact, that's one of the things I did

00:07:22.420 is I asked all these old players I interviewed,

00:07:25.780 who was the best of those four teams of all time?

00:07:28.160 And all gave different answers.

00:07:30.240 Some thought it was the Celtics,

00:07:31.540 some thought it was the Pistons,

00:07:32.580 some thought it was the Bulls,

00:07:33.880 and a lot thought it was the Lakers.

00:07:35.440 So, and I had, there was a great quote

00:07:38.160 from Danny Ainge of the Celtics who said,

00:07:41.120 look, here's how you know it was the greatest era.

00:07:43.980 There were five or six teams

00:07:45.280 that would have won a title in any other era.

00:07:47.940 Teams like, you know, the Atlanta Hawks

00:07:49.700 who had Dominique Wilkins and the Milwaukee Bucks

00:07:52.640 and, you know, the 76ers with Charles Barkley.

00:07:55.740 These were all teams that got thwarted

00:07:58.280 because of the intensity of the competition.

00:08:00.220 So yes, it's definitely my opinion.

00:08:03.300 And one of the fun things is arguing about it.

00:08:05.240 And I try to give credence

00:08:06.820 to some of the other great seasons.

00:08:08.240 But to me, the greatest season was this season

00:08:11.580 where all these teams were playing together

00:08:13.260 and it's sort of like lightning in a bottle.

00:08:15.300 You feel like you'll never get it again.

00:08:17.120 So what you do with this book,

00:08:17.940 you focus on these four teams

00:08:19.660 and then you just focus on four games

00:08:21.760 during the regular season plus the post-season.

00:08:24.140 And what you do is you just,

00:08:25.640 yeah, you do a great job of writing.

00:08:27.740 It's very novel-like or like watching a movie.

00:08:30.220 And along the way,

00:08:31.140 you also extract these lessons about life

00:08:34.700 that you can take from the season

00:08:36.380 and these players.

00:08:37.820 So let's talk about these players you focus on.

00:08:40.440 You focus on Larry Bird, Magic Johnson,

00:08:43.620 Michael Jordan, and Isaiah Thomas.

00:08:45.940 And I think this, you really,

00:08:46.980 I noticed how you tried to make this

00:08:48.500 like a redemption story for Isaiah Thomas.

00:08:51.580 Well, let's talk about Larry Bird first.

00:08:52.760 Whenever I see YouTube videos

00:08:54.320 highlighting the best players in NBA history,

00:08:57.180 Bird is always up there.

00:08:58.400 But if you watch him play,

00:08:59.520 he's not particularly flashy or elegant.

00:09:02.880 So what made Bird great?

00:09:05.620 Well, Bird, you know, it's this thing.

00:09:07.440 You don't have to be as athletic

00:09:08.760 if you know what's going to happen in the future.

00:09:11.080 You know, you just show up

00:09:12.440 where it's going to happen.

00:09:13.620 And you can be slower than everybody

00:09:15.580 as long as you're already there

00:09:16.900 when they get there.

00:09:18.020 And that's what Bird had.

00:09:19.360 Bird had incredible court vision.

00:09:22.180 And a lot of his greatest plays,

00:09:24.000 it seems almost like luck.

00:09:25.480 You'll notice the same thing

00:09:26.540 with Wayne Gretzky like,

00:09:27.680 oh, he's just standing there

00:09:28.760 and the ball happened to come to him.

00:09:30.880 The 1987 playoffs ended for the Pistons

00:09:33.840 with this famous steal that Bird made.

00:09:37.140 The game was basically over

00:09:38.500 and the Celtics were probably

00:09:40.080 going to be eliminated.

00:09:41.420 And all Isaiah Thomas had to do

00:09:42.880 was inbound the ball to Bill Lambeer.

00:09:45.740 And Bird faked like he was running up court

00:09:47.680 you'd normally do.

00:09:48.620 And he just knew what Isaiah Thomas

00:09:50.040 was going to do.

00:09:50.660 And he cut back and Isaiah threw the ball

00:09:52.460 right to him.

00:09:53.100 You know, and he dished the ball off

00:09:55.080 and there was a quick layup

00:09:56.180 by Dennis Johnson

00:09:57.020 and the game was over.

00:09:57.880 It's one of the most famous plays

00:09:59.600 in basketball.

00:10:00.260 It happened so fast.

00:10:01.380 But that's Bird's talent in a nutshell,

00:10:03.740 which is he knew

00:10:05.200 how the game was going to unfold.

00:10:07.120 He knew what was going to happen.

00:10:08.540 And it just made him

00:10:09.940 the center of all the action.

00:10:11.640 And he also was an incredible shooter.

00:10:15.200 And he was a better athlete

00:10:17.460 than people really give him credit for.

00:10:19.160 He was big.

00:10:19.880 And he was great inside and outside.

00:10:23.100 And he got hurt.

00:10:24.480 He hurt his back.

00:10:25.500 And he was already sort of fading

00:10:27.380 by the time the season

00:10:28.760 that I write about comes along.

00:10:30.320 But he just made the difference.

00:10:32.340 And he became, you know,

00:10:33.980 rightfully one of the top three players

00:10:35.880 of all time.

00:10:36.880 And also he had incredible confidence

00:10:39.180 that was unnerving to his opponents.

00:10:41.560 And what's interesting is you can see,

00:10:43.760 like Dennis Rodman famously ran down

00:10:46.220 Larry Bird and said, 0.95

00:10:47.520 if he was black, 0.93

00:10:48.500 he'd just be considered 0.95

00:10:49.260 just another good player.

00:10:51.000 But the great players

00:10:52.300 always recognize the great players.

00:10:54.240 And Jordan always recognized Bird

00:10:56.020 as right up, you know,

00:10:57.260 that they were equals.

00:10:58.280 And same with Magic Johnson

00:10:59.740 and same with Isaiah.

00:11:01.300 Well, the other thing Bird had

00:11:02.060 is he just had a tenacity

00:11:03.380 and an intensity and a work ethic

00:11:05.260 that every time I watch him,

00:11:06.340 like you could tell

00:11:06.980 he was putting it all on the line

00:11:08.760 every single game.

00:11:09.640 Like how did he develop that tenacity?

00:11:12.440 Well, he had a tough childhood.

00:11:14.300 He grew up in Southern Indiana,

00:11:15.440 which is really more the South

00:11:17.060 than the Midwest.

00:11:18.340 And he grew up playing in games

00:11:19.980 where he was the only white kid playing

00:11:21.800 behind this hotel

00:11:23.340 in French Lick, Indiana,

00:11:25.420 where he played with the staff.

00:11:27.300 And he just learned to compete.

00:11:29.240 And he had brothers

00:11:30.340 and they got in a lot of fights,

00:11:32.480 played a lot of sports.

00:11:33.540 And his father,

00:11:35.140 who had sort of,

00:11:36.220 I think, had PTSD

00:11:37.140 from the Korean War,

00:11:38.880 was an alcoholic

00:11:40.100 and killed himself

00:11:41.640 when Bird was a kid.

00:11:43.060 And I think that just made him

00:11:44.760 very, very, very tough.

00:11:46.300 And he had the sense

00:11:48.080 that he was always being underestimated

00:11:49.800 because he wasn't really scouted

00:11:51.720 very much in high school

00:11:53.240 because he played

00:11:53.820 at such a small school

00:11:54.880 in the middle of nowhere.

00:11:56.300 And everybody dismissed him

00:11:57.800 for all the reasons

00:11:58.780 we're still talking about right now.

00:12:00.240 He didn't jump very high.

00:12:01.860 He wasn't a great runner.

00:12:03.580 You know, all these things.

00:12:05.140 And he dominated when he played,

00:12:07.040 but he played against

00:12:07.700 such small schools

00:12:08.680 that he couldn't really

00:12:10.020 get anyone's attention.

00:12:10.940 He went to Indiana University

00:12:12.440 where, you know,

00:12:13.300 Bobby Knight was the coach

00:12:14.380 and he never really got a shot there.

00:12:16.240 He dropped out of college,

00:12:18.160 went back home,

00:12:19.120 was working basically

00:12:19.940 on a road crew

00:12:20.700 in pickup games

00:12:21.460 where he got spotted

00:12:22.260 by one of the coaches

00:12:23.720 at Indiana State.

00:12:25.100 And then he just made his rise

00:12:26.800 because he took Indiana State,

00:12:28.700 a team you never really hear of before

00:12:30.280 and never really hear of since,

00:12:31.880 and brought him all the way

00:12:32.820 to the National Championship game,

00:12:34.340 which was something

00:12:35.100 that a lot of us

00:12:35.760 remember very vividly,

00:12:37.660 where Bird and Magic

00:12:38.620 played in the National Championship.

00:12:39.900 And Bird was just this

00:12:41.280 incredibly competitive person

00:12:44.160 with a nasty streak

00:12:45.580 who was what you'd call

00:12:47.000 farm strong.

00:12:48.820 You know, he wasn't a guy

00:12:49.440 in the weight room,

00:12:50.160 but he would work on farms

00:12:52.520 when he was a kid

00:12:53.000 and he was incredibly strong

00:12:54.400 in a way that didn't show

00:12:55.560 necessarily in his physique.

00:12:59.080 And it's funny

00:12:59.540 because I was showing my son,

00:13:00.860 you know,

00:13:01.060 we talk about old hockey players

00:13:02.660 who didn't really go

00:13:03.300 to the weight room.

00:13:04.440 There's just a picture

00:13:05.220 of Gordie Howe

00:13:06.340 in 1950s with his shirt off

00:13:08.080 and he's just grew up

00:13:09.280 on a farm

00:13:09.780 and he's stronger

00:13:10.260 than anybody you see now.

00:13:11.460 And it was this kind

00:13:12.540 of endurance strength

00:13:13.700 that you can never get anywhere

00:13:15.540 but actually working outside.

00:13:17.420 And speaking of his competitive nature,

00:13:19.460 it's like he had a nasty streak.

00:13:21.060 And one thing that surprised

00:13:22.700 particularly a lot

00:13:23.160 of the black basketball players

00:13:24.560 was that Larry Bird 1.00

00:13:26.260 talked a ton of trash. 0.98

00:13:28.840 Yeah. 1.00

00:13:29.420 And a lot of black players

00:13:30.780 like Magic Johnson,

00:13:32.000 they saw that as more

00:13:32.840 part of the black game.

00:13:33.780 The white games,

00:13:34.480 they seem more polite.

00:13:35.360 And they were shocked

00:13:36.560 when they played against Bird 0.95

00:13:37.700 and he was trash talking them. 0.59

00:13:39.340 And you hear all these stories 0.96

00:13:40.760 and then players think

00:13:41.800 they're going to dominate him

00:13:42.740 and they look up

00:13:43.260 and he's scoring

00:13:43.800 from all over the floor.

00:13:45.420 And that ultimately

00:13:46.420 won admiration

00:13:47.320 from a lot of people.

00:13:48.220 But a lot of fans

00:13:49.320 found it shocking

00:13:50.620 because he didn't seem that way.

00:13:52.600 Same with Jordan. 1.00

00:13:53.460 Jordan was a huge trash talker. 0.99

00:13:55.120 But if you saw him 0.99

00:13:56.340 sort of doing his public rounds,

00:13:57.980 you'd never get that idea.

00:13:59.520 He seemed like the nicest guy

00:14:01.540 in the world.

00:14:01.980 But once he got out

00:14:03.180 on the basketball court,

00:14:04.780 he was nasty

00:14:05.560 and getting in people's heads 0.98

00:14:07.220 and messing with them

00:14:08.760 and getting them out of their game

00:14:09.840 is a big part of basketball.

00:14:11.460 I think more than other sports

00:14:12.880 because you're so close

00:14:14.920 for the whole game.

00:14:17.000 You know, in football,

00:14:17.820 you have a helmet on,

00:14:18.800 you have a mask on.

00:14:19.720 Mostly you're separated

00:14:20.700 except during the play.

00:14:22.680 But in basketball,

00:14:23.400 you have guys

00:14:24.180 bodying each other up,

00:14:25.260 fronting each other up

00:14:26.020 and they're face to face,

00:14:27.140 you know, for 45 minutes

00:14:28.760 and they're just saying

00:14:29.860 nasty, nasty stuff to each other.

00:14:32.060 And when you hear it,

00:14:33.740 it's always a shock.

00:14:34.680 And sometimes in these old games,

00:14:36.080 you hear it

00:14:37.020 because a mic picks it up.

00:14:38.060 And I think they mostly

00:14:38.860 cut it out of the television,

00:14:39.920 but it's a part of the game

00:14:41.580 that survived

00:14:42.140 from when they were kids

00:14:42.940 playing in the playground.

00:14:44.460 Was there a moment

00:14:44.840 from that season,

00:14:45.500 that 87-88 season

00:14:46.680 that stands out for Bird?

00:14:48.560 I would say two.

00:14:49.760 One is during the All-Star game,

00:14:52.460 they had the three-point competition.

00:14:53.880 The three-point shot was new.

00:14:55.300 We can talk about it later

00:14:56.160 if you want.

00:14:56.460 It changed basketball.

00:14:58.020 Now, the first three-point shot

00:14:59.540 in the NBA was made

00:15:00.660 in Bird's rookie game.

00:15:03.220 So his sort of career parallels

00:15:05.760 the growth of the three-point shot.

00:15:07.380 He was in one of the first

00:15:08.760 three-point competitions.

00:15:09.840 I think he won three in a row.

00:15:11.660 But that one,

00:15:12.440 the guys you talked to say

00:15:13.580 he came into the locker room

00:15:15.160 where the guys who were competing

00:15:16.580 against him were getting changed.

00:15:18.280 And he stuck his head and said,

00:15:20.020 I just wanted to see,

00:15:22.880 you know,

00:15:23.360 who among you is going to finish

00:15:24.480 in second place.

00:15:26.060 I wanted to see

00:15:26.840 the second place locker room.

00:15:28.300 So that was like a big FU.

00:15:29.840 And that was Bird's confidence

00:15:31.180 and his cockiness. 0.82

00:15:32.280 And then he went out

00:15:33.340 and he won the three-point competition,

00:15:34.980 but he did it in his warm-up jacket

00:15:36.760 without taking off his sweats, basically.

00:15:39.620 And if you watch it,

00:15:40.900 when he makes the last shot,

00:15:42.120 he puts it up.

00:15:43.120 He rallies at the end.

00:15:44.480 He puts it up and he turns

00:15:45.480 and walks away

00:15:46.160 and sort of raises his arms

00:15:47.260 before it even goes in.

00:15:48.740 And it was just the ultimate confidence

00:15:50.860 that Bird had 0.96

00:15:51.480 and a belief

00:15:52.260 that he would always win.

00:15:54.020 Every time he played,

00:15:54.760 he believed he would win.

00:15:55.920 And no matter what the score was,

00:15:57.620 he believed he'd come back and win.

00:15:58.840 And the few times

00:15:59.380 when he didn't win,

00:16:00.480 he seemed genuinely surprised,

00:16:02.500 you know?

00:16:03.160 And the other moment

00:16:04.940 is in the playoffs.

00:16:06.560 One of the things

00:16:07.120 that knocked the Celtics out

00:16:08.280 was they had such a tough series

00:16:09.660 against the Atlantic Hawks.

00:16:11.020 And there's this famous game

00:16:12.340 sort of called the Shootout.

00:16:13.560 Some consider it

00:16:14.240 the greatest NBA game

00:16:15.260 of all time

00:16:15.900 where it was Dominique Wilkins

00:16:17.920 and Larry Bird

00:16:20.120 at the end of the game

00:16:21.300 going shot for shot.

00:16:23.360 And Bird would come down

00:16:24.140 on the court

00:16:24.740 and basically tell the people

00:16:26.200 where he was going

00:16:26.880 to make the shots from.

00:16:28.220 And then later in it,

00:16:29.060 he started to match

00:16:30.160 Dominique's shots

00:16:31.520 like Game of Horse.

00:16:33.160 So every time Dominique

00:16:34.520 made a shot,

00:16:35.600 Bird would come back

00:16:36.180 and make the same shot.

00:16:37.740 To me,

00:16:38.160 it's kind of like

00:16:38.720 The Hustler

00:16:39.400 when it's Fast Eddie Felsen

00:16:41.400 and Minnesota Fats

00:16:42.640 playing all night,

00:16:43.640 you know?

00:16:44.380 It's sort of like,

00:16:45.080 you can beat me all day,

00:16:46.200 but I'm going to beat you

00:16:46.880 in the morning.

00:16:47.480 I'm going to outlast you.

00:16:48.560 And when you watch it,

00:16:49.540 if you go back and watch it,

00:16:50.580 it's just this incredible

00:16:52.000 scene of heavyweights

00:16:54.520 exchanging blows

00:16:55.720 until one of them

00:16:57.160 finally prevails

00:16:57.920 and that's Bird.

00:16:59.380 So what's the lesson

00:17:00.020 from Bird

00:17:00.540 that you took away?

00:17:01.920 Like the life lessons

00:17:03.020 from his career?

00:17:04.360 I think the lesson

00:17:05.720 from Bird is,

00:17:06.700 you said it,

00:17:07.800 which is,

00:17:09.000 he could have

00:17:09.520 prolonged his career

00:17:10.540 as a lot of these

00:17:11.320 other guys did

00:17:12.180 by being more careful

00:17:13.500 with his body,

00:17:14.220 by not playing hurt,

00:17:15.300 stuff players do now.

00:17:16.320 This is what I liked

00:17:16.900 about the era.

00:17:18.040 And it's like they had

00:17:18.920 this sense

00:17:20.480 that life was divided

00:17:21.600 between like longevity

00:17:23.040 and the fire

00:17:24.420 or the intensity

00:17:25.480 of the moment.

00:17:26.640 Right now or later.

00:17:28.860 And they always chose

00:17:30.220 right now.

00:17:31.420 Another great example,

00:17:32.500 this is Kevin McHale

00:17:33.600 who basically played

00:17:34.960 a whole season

00:17:35.740 on a broken foot.

00:17:37.920 He was, you know,

00:17:38.720 on the Celtics,

00:17:39.520 a forward on the Celtics.

00:17:40.920 And basically,

00:17:41.920 that's what Bird did,

00:17:42.860 which is every game

00:17:43.960 was life and death.

00:17:45.140 And that's what made him

00:17:45.860 so intense.

00:17:46.720 And he always had

00:17:47.620 the sense that,

00:17:48.500 you know,

00:17:49.620 you might even be

00:17:50.360 out of the playoffs.

00:17:51.220 The season might be over.

00:17:52.460 But ultimately,

00:17:53.380 even if it seems

00:17:54.120 like a meaningless game,

00:17:55.740 this is still me

00:17:56.620 against you

00:17:57.200 and someone's going

00:17:57.800 to win

00:17:58.040 and someone's going

00:17:58.600 to lose.

00:17:59.340 And he always wanted

00:18:00.400 to win

00:18:00.920 and he sort of risked

00:18:02.500 his health

00:18:02.940 and his career

00:18:03.440 every night

00:18:03.900 that he played basketball.

00:18:05.200 Yeah, Jack London

00:18:05.860 famously said,

00:18:06.840 I'd rather be ashes

00:18:07.820 than dust.

00:18:09.440 Right?

00:18:09.600 I want to just burn out 0.96

00:18:10.920 in a flame 0.99

00:18:11.720 in one moment.

00:18:13.160 It's Neil Young

00:18:13.540 better to burn out

00:18:14.360 than fade away.

00:18:15.040 Yeah, burn out

00:18:15.840 than rust out.

00:18:17.060 Yeah.

00:18:17.680 Yeah, I think

00:18:18.260 that's one of the things

00:18:18.800 I like about that period too.

00:18:20.220 Even my son,

00:18:21.280 he'll be 13 here

00:18:22.580 pretty soon.

00:18:23.200 He's really into basketball

00:18:24.280 and he's always

00:18:24.860 constantly watching

00:18:25.680 YouTube highlights

00:18:26.580 of great basketball players

00:18:28.480 and basketball games.

00:18:29.660 And that's one,

00:18:30.040 he even picks up on that.

00:18:31.400 He says,

00:18:31.780 there's something

00:18:32.540 about that era,

00:18:33.600 the 80s,

00:18:34.340 maybe early 90s,

00:18:35.120 where it just seemed grittier.

00:18:36.960 He says,

00:18:37.260 now they're kind of soft.

00:18:38.360 I don't really,

00:18:38.800 it's not as fun watching,

00:18:40.540 but I love watching,

00:18:41.480 Jordan and Bird

00:18:42.760 play just with that intensity.

00:18:45.200 And they had a sense

00:18:46.380 that they represented

00:18:47.200 their cities

00:18:47.840 and they were from,

00:18:48.620 they were mostly,

00:18:49.400 except for the Lakers,

00:18:50.180 in working class cities.

00:18:51.920 And they really identified

00:18:53.240 with the people

00:18:54.140 of those cities

00:18:54.780 who are fans of those teams.

00:18:55.960 And you could still

00:18:56.540 get into those games

00:18:57.540 without paying $300.

00:18:59.820 And they very much

00:19:01.280 exemplified

00:19:02.120 and sort of personified

00:19:03.300 the hustle

00:19:04.580 of what was going on

00:19:05.820 in America

00:19:06.260 at the time.

00:19:07.280 All right,

00:19:07.400 you can't talk about Bird

00:19:08.240 without talking about

00:19:09.060 Magic Johnson,

00:19:10.240 the whole Bird versus Magic.

00:19:11.400 I mean,

00:19:11.580 that started

00:19:12.100 when they were in college.

00:19:13.560 How was Bird

00:19:14.580 different from Magic?

00:19:16.680 Well,

00:19:17.100 it actually started,

00:19:18.080 I believe,

00:19:18.500 when they were in high school.

00:19:20.140 They were in some sort of,

00:19:21.480 I think so,

00:19:22.280 I have to remember,

00:19:22.880 they were in an all-star game.

00:19:24.600 There are all these

00:19:24.920 showcases together.

00:19:26.280 And they hooked up

00:19:27.040 and they realized,

00:19:27.700 they just met briefly,

00:19:29.160 and they realized

00:19:29.760 they could play together

00:19:30.580 very, very well.

00:19:31.680 They had a similar game

00:19:33.120 in that both of their games

00:19:34.980 sort of had this thing

00:19:36.620 called like Lanyap,

00:19:38.060 which is a little extra

00:19:39.480 for no reason,

00:19:40.340 which is a lot of times

00:19:41.080 when you watch those

00:19:41.820 old Celtics and Lakers teams,

00:19:44.540 there's an extra pass.

00:19:45.960 Like,

00:19:46.260 they could score,

00:19:47.200 but the pass is so beautiful

00:19:48.940 that they make the extra pass.

00:19:51.400 You know,

00:19:51.580 when you go back

00:19:52.100 and you see the ball sharing

00:19:53.580 and the handling

00:19:54.240 and every guy involved,

00:19:55.880 they had that in common

00:19:57.020 and it was both

00:19:57.760 about court vision.

00:19:59.060 And then when they got

00:19:59.760 to college,

00:20:00.320 they were both

00:20:00.880 in these Midwestern schools

00:20:02.240 that were both

00:20:03.380 slightly off the radar,

00:20:04.660 Bird's way more so,

00:20:06.020 Indiana State.

00:20:07.400 And Magic used to watch Bird. 0.96

00:20:09.520 He thought of him

00:20:10.020 kind of as a friend

00:20:11.000 and he would follow him

00:20:12.640 and root for him.

00:20:13.640 And when players

00:20:14.220 on his team

00:20:14.860 sort of said

00:20:15.360 he can't be that good,

00:20:16.180 he's just a big, 0.99

00:20:16.820 goofy white guy, 0.99

00:20:18.180 Magic would say, 0.65

00:20:18.900 no, you don't understand

00:20:19.720 how good he is.

00:20:20.540 And when they met

00:20:21.540 in the finals,

00:20:22.800 I think that Magic thought

00:20:23.860 they were going to have

00:20:24.400 this reunion

00:20:24.960 and be buddies,

00:20:25.780 but Bird basically refused

00:20:27.220 to acknowledge him,

00:20:28.140 caught him,

00:20:29.380 and, you know,

00:20:30.240 wouldn't shake his hand.

00:20:31.500 Because Bird's thing is,

00:20:32.740 if I'm going to beat you,

00:20:33.760 I want you to be an enemy. 0.96

00:20:36.340 If I turn you into a friend

00:20:38.220 or let you be my friend,

00:20:39.380 then I'm not going to compete

00:20:40.400 as fiercely.

00:20:41.700 So they had this relationship

00:20:43.540 where, at the beginning,

00:20:45.660 Magic felt slighted,

00:20:47.960 I think, by Bird.

00:20:49.160 And the finals,

00:20:50.820 the first finals was really,

00:20:52.660 they played against each other

00:20:53.920 in the NCAA final,

00:20:56.440 and Magic won

00:20:57.440 because he had a much better team.

00:20:59.660 And you can see Bird

00:21:00.700 at the end of that game

00:21:01.480 with his head in the towel,

00:21:03.020 crying.

00:21:03.960 And Magic has this great thing

00:21:05.440 where he said,

00:21:05.900 I felt sympathy for him

00:21:07.280 because I knew that

00:21:08.080 if the situation was reversed,

00:21:09.420 I'd be doing the same exact thing.

00:21:10.920 I'd be sitting with my head

00:21:12.040 in the towel crying.

00:21:13.320 And then the next year

00:21:14.420 after he wins

00:21:15.160 the NCAA championship,

00:21:17.200 Magic wins the NBA championship,

00:21:19.860 and Bird's sitting at home

00:21:20.800 watching him.

00:21:21.620 And he always had Magic

00:21:23.180 as this sort of marker

00:21:24.820 of the guy that I have to beat.

00:21:26.940 And Magic and Bird for a long time

00:21:29.340 had this Ali Frazier kind of thing,

00:21:33.100 you know,

00:21:33.400 where they were the measure

00:21:34.260 of each other

00:21:34.880 and they had to beat each other

00:21:36.540 to really make the season a success.

00:21:38.620 And I remember at the time,

00:21:40.600 this is going way back,

00:21:41.920 I had an early video game

00:21:43.780 on my Apple II computer

00:21:45.160 and it was called One on One.

00:21:47.480 Yeah, I remember that.

00:21:48.380 And it was Larry Bird.

00:21:49.200 Yeah, it was a great game.

00:21:50.340 And you could break the glass

00:21:51.380 on the backboard

00:21:52.040 and a guy came and swept it up.

00:21:53.580 But it was Larry Bird

00:21:54.940 and Dr. J,

00:21:56.660 which made a lot of sense

00:21:57.720 because Dr. J was a big star.

00:21:59.180 But all of us do,

00:21:59.940 it really should have been Larry and Magic.

00:22:01.880 And something had gone wrong with it.

00:22:03.280 Dr. J was already from an earlier era.

00:22:06.080 Well, yeah,

00:22:06.340 that's the one thing I liked

00:22:07.560 about the way you juxtaposed

00:22:09.540 Johnson and Bird.

00:22:10.780 One thing I got from their relationship

00:22:12.780 was that rivalry

00:22:14.700 can spur you to greatness.

00:22:17.340 It seemed like they used each other

00:22:19.060 to get better.

00:22:21.540 Yeah, you always see that.

00:22:22.880 You see like,

00:22:23.520 even with like Mike Tyson,

00:22:24.940 when Mike Tyson was young,

00:22:27.100 I mean, that's when I was young,

00:22:28.300 same thing.

00:22:29.020 And I felt he was the greatest boxer

00:22:30.660 I had ever seen in my life, man.

00:22:32.460 But there was nobody really worthy

00:22:34.580 of competing with him.

00:22:35.660 So you never really found out

00:22:36.920 how good he was.

00:22:38.060 He had no, you know,

00:22:39.580 Muhammad Ali or Joe Frazier

00:22:41.200 or George Foreman to fight.

00:22:42.960 So I felt like that great luck

00:22:45.920 for Larry Bird and for Magic

00:22:47.420 is that they came right up together.

00:22:49.380 And that's really,

00:22:50.520 you know, people will tell you

00:22:51.380 that's what made the NBA,

00:22:53.120 the NBA,

00:22:53.760 because not long before that,

00:22:55.600 the NBA had been kind of

00:22:57.340 a slightly unwatched league.

00:22:59.580 It's playoff games.

00:23:00.640 A lot of it were not carried live.

00:23:02.160 They were carried on a tape delay.

00:23:03.420 They weren't on TV.

00:23:05.100 And these two guys

00:23:06.200 came battling each other

00:23:07.340 and they just got

00:23:08.000 everybody's attention

00:23:09.000 and brought the game,

00:23:10.740 made it kind of America's game.

00:23:13.040 So they were,

00:23:14.720 you got to be lucky

00:23:15.580 in your teammates

00:23:16.440 and you got to be lucky

00:23:17.360 in your competitors.

00:23:18.220 And they were both.

00:23:19.240 Yeah, I think so.

00:23:19.680 You hear that people talk about,

00:23:21.000 well, you just got to compete

00:23:21.800 against yourself.

00:23:22.720 And like, I understand

00:23:23.460 what people are saying,

00:23:24.280 but there's something

00:23:25.260 about having an external thing

00:23:27.460 to measure yourself

00:23:28.320 that really does spur you

00:23:30.660 to things that you'd never

00:23:31.900 thought capable of doing.

00:23:33.540 I've seen that in my own.

00:23:34.400 There's people in the sphere

00:23:36.440 that I'm in where I'm like,

00:23:37.840 man, I want to be like that guy.

00:23:40.000 I want to do better than that guy.

00:23:41.500 I'm curious,

00:23:41.880 do you have like your own

00:23:43.520 bird versus magic competition

00:23:45.240 in your own life

00:23:45.800 to become a better writer?

00:23:46.700 I do, except, you know,

00:23:49.540 the thing about being a writer

00:23:50.700 is you get to measure yourself

00:23:52.340 against people who are dead

00:23:53.860 or who aren't writing anymore.

00:23:56.140 So, you know,

00:23:56.660 that's like always a good thing,

00:23:58.360 which is, I mean,

00:24:00.060 it's bad to be dead, of course,

00:24:01.340 but, you know,

00:24:02.380 it's sort of writing never changes.

00:24:05.020 It exists on the page.

00:24:05.880 So yes, I have writers

00:24:06.820 that I've always looked at

00:24:08.160 as sort of my heroes

00:24:10.480 and my model

00:24:11.320 and people I try to,

00:24:12.780 you know, imitate.

00:24:14.360 It's funny because there's a really funny

00:24:15.980 old New Yorker story

00:24:17.260 about Ernest Hemingway

00:24:19.000 by Lillian Ross

00:24:20.420 and Hemingway starts talking

00:24:22.480 like he's an athlete

00:24:23.500 and just what you said

00:24:25.640 and he says in that story,

00:24:27.200 I trained and I trained

00:24:28.360 and I whipped Mr. Dim Maupassant

00:24:30.140 and I trained and I trained

00:24:31.800 and I whipped Mr. Turgenev

00:24:33.880 but I've never gotten into the ring yet

00:24:36.420 with Mr. Tolstoy.

00:24:38.140 You know, when I get into the ring

00:24:38.980 with Mr. Tolstoy,

00:24:39.900 then we'll see what kind of fighter I am.

00:24:42.080 You know, so he's very much

00:24:43.420 saw it that way

00:24:44.200 that he was in competition

00:24:45.240 with other writers

00:24:46.400 who were already dead

00:24:47.340 when he was writing.

00:24:48.220 So I do think that

00:24:49.460 having people push you

00:24:50.960 is what makes you great.

00:24:53.620 Everybody knows that

00:24:54.580 and you can't really compete

00:24:55.980 against yourself.

00:24:57.040 You don't really know

00:24:58.160 how good you are

00:24:59.520 until somebody's actively

00:25:00.580 trying to thwart you, basically.

00:25:03.080 And something that Magic Johnson did

00:25:04.340 is he changed the game of basketball.

00:25:06.180 A lot of people credit him

00:25:07.180 for making it what it is today.

00:25:09.540 How did he change the game?

00:25:12.160 Well, Magic was kind of a

00:25:13.820 not a very tall kid

00:25:15.500 when he started playing basketball

00:25:16.680 but he was great

00:25:18.040 at dribbling the ball.

00:25:19.320 He was a great dribbler.

00:25:20.380 Everybody forgets

00:25:21.000 basketball starts at the dribbling.

00:25:22.860 And he played point guard

00:25:24.180 and he wanted to play point guard.

00:25:26.020 And, you know,

00:25:26.920 the point guard comes up

00:25:27.800 and he controls all the action

00:25:28.940 and sort of distributes the ball.

00:25:31.140 And he grew a lot

00:25:33.240 and there was this move

00:25:34.200 to push him into forward,

00:25:36.600 be like a power forward

00:25:37.520 because suddenly he was a big guy,

00:25:39.340 tall but also big.

00:25:40.520 And he wanted to play his position.

00:25:43.060 And in fact,

00:25:43.580 he won a high school championship

00:25:44.940 playing point guard

00:25:46.340 at, you know,

00:25:47.220 whatever he is,

00:25:47.920 6'7 or whatever he is.

00:25:49.320 And he was deciding

00:25:50.680 between Michigan

00:25:51.500 and Michigan State.

00:25:53.400 Now, normally you'd go to Michigan.

00:25:54.700 Michigan's a much bigger school,

00:25:57.000 you know,

00:25:57.280 as far as sports.

00:25:58.100 It's got this pedigree.

00:25:59.360 It's Michigan Wolverines.

00:26:00.420 And he went to Michigan State

00:26:03.080 because the coach of Michigan

00:26:04.320 said he wanted to move him forward.

00:26:06.180 And the coach of Michigan State

00:26:07.200 said,

00:26:07.500 if you come here,

00:26:07.940 you can play wherever you want.

00:26:09.260 So he wanted to play point guard.

00:26:10.740 And what was different about him

00:26:11.960 is suddenly you had a big,

00:26:13.220 big guy

00:26:13.860 who could handle the ball

00:26:15.440 like a small guy.

00:26:17.520 And what that did is,

00:26:18.880 first of all,

00:26:19.480 he had this incredible vision

00:26:20.800 of the court

00:26:21.280 because the people covering

00:26:22.760 him were usually

00:26:23.160 five inches shorter than him.

00:26:24.700 And he could see over their heads.

00:26:26.860 And he had the ability

00:26:28.180 to, when necessary,

00:26:29.620 to go inside

00:26:31.020 and be kind of like

00:26:31.840 a swing player

00:26:32.680 who could go in

00:26:33.740 and play the inside game

00:26:35.120 or drop back

00:26:36.220 and play the outside game

00:26:37.420 and lead the rush.

00:26:38.600 And his first year,

00:26:40.000 in fact,

00:26:40.380 is sort of famous,

00:26:41.440 which is,

00:26:42.040 he was on the Lakers

00:26:43.080 and the Lakers depend,

00:26:44.680 their whole offense

00:26:45.380 ran around Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,

00:26:47.320 who was probably seven foot four.

00:26:49.200 He always kind of lied

00:26:49.960 about his height a little bit

00:26:50.960 because he was embarrassed,

00:26:52.860 I think,

00:26:53.140 to be how tall he was.

00:26:54.920 And Kareem got hurt

00:26:56.200 and couldn't play

00:26:57.040 against the 76ers

00:26:58.380 and Magic came in

00:27:00.220 and the team's point guard

00:27:01.820 and played center

00:27:02.820 in the final.

00:27:04.600 He was able to switch

00:27:05.480 from point guard to center

00:27:06.520 and they won the championship

00:27:07.660 and he won the MVP

00:27:09.020 of the finals

00:27:10.640 because Philadelphia

00:27:12.280 was completely unprepared

00:27:13.600 for a point guard

00:27:14.340 suddenly switching to center

00:27:15.720 who could then switch

00:27:16.860 back to point guard.

00:27:18.080 So he's this incredibly

00:27:18.840 diverse player

00:27:19.800 with this incredible

00:27:20.980 court vision

00:27:22.240 and he had this ability

00:27:23.880 to pass

00:27:24.680 similar to Bird

00:27:26.260 but he could do it

00:27:27.500 on the run

00:27:28.160 faster than Bird

00:27:29.180 and if you go back

00:27:30.180 and watch when that team

00:27:31.200 was clicking,

00:27:32.460 it's like a magic show.

00:27:33.840 I still know

00:27:34.440 what's going to happen.

00:27:35.120 I'm still surprised

00:27:36.100 where the ball ends up

00:27:37.560 because his whole body

00:27:38.780 is pointing this way

00:27:39.720 and the ball is suddenly

00:27:40.800 coming out that way

00:27:41.860 and it was kind of like

00:27:42.980 a little earlier

00:27:43.780 there was Pete Maravich

00:27:44.980 when I was a kid.

00:27:46.180 He was done.

00:27:46.900 He was basically done

00:27:47.800 by this time

00:27:48.420 but it was a kind of

00:27:49.540 a Harlem Globetrotters thing

00:27:51.500 but for real

00:27:52.440 where the passing

00:27:53.600 became so crazy

00:27:54.740 and so dazzling

00:27:55.940 that sort of

00:27:57.100 the joy of the game

00:27:57.920 was watching your team score

00:27:59.020 but also just watching

00:27:59.980 them move up court.

00:28:01.180 Yeah, his ability

00:28:01.840 to pass on the run

00:28:03.520 and do misdirection

00:28:04.840 it actually threw off

00:28:06.000 the players

00:28:06.980 on the Lakers

00:28:07.760 when he first got there.

00:28:09.100 They were so used to

00:28:09.860 setting up

00:28:10.600 and waiting for a pass

00:28:11.720 and in those first few games

00:28:13.760 they'd have a ball

00:28:14.360 that just hit them

00:28:14.720 right in the face

00:28:15.260 because they weren't ready

00:28:15.920 for a pass from Johnson.

00:28:17.460 Yeah.

00:28:18.320 Yeah, and you read stories

00:28:19.560 basically how to train

00:28:20.880 his teammates

00:28:21.500 to play in a different way

00:28:22.740 because they'd be running

00:28:24.140 with their back to him

00:28:25.000 and suddenly the ball

00:28:25.640 was hitting them

00:28:26.080 in the back of the head.

00:28:27.160 They didn't even know

00:28:27.620 that they were open

00:28:28.260 or they were eligible

00:28:28.920 for a pass.

00:28:29.640 They were just getting

00:28:30.100 to their position

00:28:30.800 and finally Jerry West

00:28:32.900 who was the general manager

00:28:34.020 of the Lakers

00:28:35.440 was able to bring in

00:28:36.680 the players

00:28:37.260 like James Worthy

00:28:38.500 and Byron Scott

00:28:40.080 who could play

00:28:41.300 that kind of game

00:28:42.100 with magic

00:28:42.800 and once they had

00:28:43.640 the ability to do it

00:28:44.640 they sort of became

00:28:45.460 you know showtime

00:28:46.780 in this kind of speed offense

00:28:48.860 nobody had ever seen

00:28:50.140 and that's what was

00:28:51.060 so amazing about the Pistons

00:28:52.340 which is another thing

00:28:53.120 which is they found

00:28:53.720 a way to frustrate that

00:28:54.780 which nobody had done.

00:28:56.840 We're going to take

00:28:57.100 a quick break

00:28:57.480 for your word

00:28:57.900 from our sponsors.

00:29:02.660 And now back

00:29:03.520 to the show.

00:29:04.500 Was there a moment

00:29:05.100 from that season

00:29:05.720 that really stands out

00:29:06.520 for magic?

00:29:07.620 Well, what's amazing to me

00:29:08.680 he had always had

00:29:09.540 amazing moments

00:29:10.220 but in the playoffs

00:29:11.300 one of the things

00:29:12.060 so exciting about it

00:29:13.060 is almost every series

00:29:14.700 for the Lakers

00:29:15.580 went seven games

00:29:17.260 and they played

00:29:18.440 so many postseason games

00:29:20.020 it's like a second season

00:29:21.440 which is why teams

00:29:22.560 have trouble repeating

00:29:23.440 I mean if you

00:29:24.060 do what they did

00:29:25.260 which is play an additional

00:29:26.220 25 very intense games

00:29:28.160 or whatever it is

00:29:28.800 it's very hard

00:29:29.620 to come back

00:29:30.180 and shape

00:29:30.700 and start the next season

00:29:32.260 and in every game

00:29:34.560 no matter what happened

00:29:35.580 to Magic

00:29:35.980 no matter his physical state

00:29:37.360 he would come back

00:29:38.640 in the game seven

00:29:39.440 take over

00:29:40.120 and you know

00:29:41.140 win the game

00:29:41.940 so when they played

00:29:43.300 like

00:29:43.660 I think it was

00:29:45.620 San Antonio

00:29:46.360 he would just step up

00:29:48.280 in game seven

00:29:48.880 I think he again

00:29:49.620 played center

00:29:50.380 and he would just

00:29:51.340 be the guy

00:29:52.800 who even though

00:29:53.440 he might not be leading

00:29:54.400 in every category

00:29:55.440 would sort of emerge

00:29:57.140 in the clutch

00:29:58.080 to somehow

00:29:59.220 do whatever he had to do

00:30:00.600 to win the victory

00:30:01.260 which was different

00:30:02.740 every game

00:30:03.240 so it might be

00:30:03.820 hitting a lot of baskets

00:30:04.880 from the outside

00:30:05.400 or it might be rebounding

00:30:06.680 which you don't really

00:30:07.740 think of him

00:30:08.340 as a rebounder

00:30:09.360 because he's a guard

00:30:10.800 but he would come in

00:30:12.120 and move to forward

00:30:13.020 and out rebound

00:30:13.940 the other team's

00:30:14.500 best rebounder

00:30:15.280 if that's what was needed

00:30:16.200 to win

00:30:17.180 and to me

00:30:17.960 that's what I really

00:30:18.660 remember about Magic

00:30:19.680 I remember him

00:30:20.420 in the playoffs

00:30:21.000 sort of this heroic

00:30:21.940 performance

00:30:22.880 where he would

00:30:23.580 like in a war movie

00:30:24.940 carry him across

00:30:25.720 every single time

00:30:26.680 so let's talk about

00:30:27.640 Isaiah Thomas

00:30:28.420 Isaiah Thomas

00:30:29.260 holds a special place

00:30:30.060 in your heart

00:30:30.620 because he's from Chicago

00:30:32.040 just like you grew up

00:30:33.240 in Chicago

00:30:33.640 and you and your dad

00:30:35.400 actually went to go

00:30:36.380 watch Isaiah Thomas

00:30:37.440 play

00:30:37.920 when he was in high school

00:30:39.340 tell us about

00:30:40.280 that experience

00:30:40.880 watching Thomas

00:30:41.660 all the way

00:30:42.060 from high school

00:30:42.860 into college

00:30:43.740 into his NBA career

00:30:44.940 well my last book

00:30:46.660 was about my father

00:30:47.580 and I wrote about

00:30:48.620 my father

00:30:49.060 as a basketball coach

00:30:50.400 which informed

00:30:51.700 his whole philosophy

00:30:53.240 of negotiation

00:30:53.900 he had a real

00:30:54.740 and he grew up

00:30:55.780 playing in Bensonhurst

00:30:57.060 Brooklyn

00:30:57.420 and Coney Island

00:30:58.180 on those courts

00:30:59.140 and he believed

00:31:00.620 in something called

00:31:01.760 Brooklyn basketball

00:31:03.040 okay

00:31:03.920 which was

00:31:04.580 if you go up

00:31:05.660 for a layup

00:31:06.280 and this

00:31:06.700 this is even playing

00:31:07.680 one-on-one

00:31:08.240 with him in the driveway

00:31:09.020 if you go up

00:31:09.600 over him for a layup

00:31:10.680 now he's old

00:31:11.440 he doesn't like that

00:31:12.660 it's like disrespect

00:31:13.460 and he would slam

00:31:14.640 you into the garage

00:31:15.640 so the play would

00:31:16.660 often end for me

00:31:17.660 with you score a basket

00:31:19.140 and you wind up

00:31:19.820 crumpled on the pavement

00:31:20.860 that's how he played

00:31:22.460 it was a very punishing game

00:31:23.940 and when the

00:31:24.700 when Isaiah came around

00:31:26.060 specifically with

00:31:26.920 the Pistons

00:31:27.740 but earlier in high school

00:31:28.980 he recognized

00:31:30.540 the kind of

00:31:31.380 Brooklyn basketball

00:31:32.600 he played as a kid

00:31:33.640 and one of the reasons

00:31:34.980 that I found fascinating

00:31:36.020 was Isaiah grew up

00:31:36.960 on these outside courts

00:31:38.160 in Chicago

00:31:38.760 where I think

00:31:40.440 that year

00:31:41.000 there were like

00:31:41.480 four players

00:31:42.440 in the all-star game

00:31:43.300 who grew up

00:31:43.680 on the same courts

00:31:44.640 there was Mo Cheeks

00:31:46.240 and Doc Rivers

00:31:47.740 and Mark Aguirre

00:31:49.620 and Isaiah

00:31:50.260 all grew up

00:31:51.060 basically playing

00:31:51.700 on the same outdoor courts

00:31:52.860 and if you know Chicago

00:31:54.280 it's the Windy City

00:31:55.720 and they would play basketball

00:31:57.860 in the fall

00:31:58.800 and in the winter

00:31:59.420 in the snow

00:32:00.060 and in the wind

00:32:00.820 and in that kind of court

00:32:02.440 you got to play defense

00:32:03.720 and you got to shoot

00:32:04.720 from inside 0.98

00:32:05.420 because if you shoot

00:32:06.200 from the outside

00:32:06.760 the wind will blow

00:32:07.620 the ball off course

00:32:08.680 and you will not score

00:32:09.620 and it gave them all

00:32:10.920 this kind of

00:32:11.400 very ferocious

00:32:12.320 ferocious style

00:32:13.320 and my father

00:32:14.680 had seen Isaiah

00:32:15.560 and he would bring us

00:32:16.680 to see Isaiah

00:32:17.800 when he played

00:32:19.020 in these high school tournaments

00:32:20.160 and sort of

00:32:20.820 teach us about basketball

00:32:22.340 by watching the young

00:32:23.500 Isaiah Thomas

00:32:24.320 I also liked Isaiah

00:32:25.680 because he was

00:32:26.380 relatively short

00:32:27.640 even in high school

00:32:29.340 compared to other players

00:32:30.840 and he looked like

00:32:32.500 he was 10 years old

00:32:33.580 you know

00:32:34.480 and then when he went

00:32:35.560 to Indiana

00:32:36.220 and played for Bobby Knight

00:32:37.720 the fans would hold

00:32:39.100 a sign up in Indiana

00:32:40.140 that said

00:32:40.620 and a child shall lead them

00:32:42.060 which was a quote

00:32:42.640 from the Bible

00:32:43.260 because he looked like

00:32:44.640 and it was from

00:32:45.400 the book of Isaiah

00:32:46.260 because he looked like

00:32:47.200 a child

00:32:48.000 and at Indiana

00:32:49.720 he would come back

00:32:51.260 and play

00:32:51.760 we'd watch him play

00:32:52.620 at Northwestern

00:32:53.420 which is near where

00:32:54.060 I grew up

00:32:54.660 where Indiana

00:32:55.580 would kill Northwestern

00:32:56.600 but you get to see

00:32:57.220 Isaiah play

00:32:57.980 so I continued to follow him

00:32:59.840 and root for him

00:33:00.700 and in his first few years

00:33:02.380 in the NBA

00:33:03.100 he was a real favorite

00:33:04.320 in Chicago

00:33:04.940 I wasn't alone

00:33:05.880 in rooting for Isaiah

00:33:07.240 but then when

00:33:08.100 Michael Jordan

00:33:08.640 came along

00:33:09.280 and the Bulls

00:33:10.580 started to become

00:33:11.280 a real contender

00:33:12.340 then he went

00:33:13.240 from sort of hero

00:33:14.000 to villain

00:33:14.620 to Chicago sports fans

00:33:16.280 yeah talking about

00:33:17.420 the street ball

00:33:17.980 that's another thing

00:33:18.420 that stood out to me

00:33:19.500 about these players

00:33:20.720 from that era

00:33:21.360 today

00:33:22.440 you know

00:33:23.180 there's these

00:33:23.920 academies

00:33:25.140 and these basketball camps

00:33:26.200 that are really fancy

00:33:27.100 and the best players

00:33:28.280 end up there

00:33:29.020 right

00:33:29.660 that didn't exist

00:33:31.020 back then

00:33:31.780 that stuff didn't exist

00:33:32.740 so they

00:33:33.200 they had to learn

00:33:34.260 on their own

00:33:35.440 playing in the snow

00:33:36.580 and the ice

00:33:37.260 and whatever

00:33:37.900 it's like

00:33:38.300 it's very like

00:33:38.820 rocky

00:33:39.320 rocky-esque

00:33:40.820 yeah

00:33:42.060 it's natural

00:33:43.400 and you kind of feel like

00:33:45.200 it's hard to argue

00:33:45.980 that the players now

00:33:46.900 are anything

00:33:47.880 but as good

00:33:48.780 as any players ever

00:33:49.540 but

00:33:49.800 there's something

00:33:51.300 about growing up

00:33:52.020 outside with your friends

00:33:53.060 and playing

00:33:53.660 that's just different

00:33:55.000 and even with my own son

00:33:56.120 playing hockey

00:33:56.740 he plays pretty serious hockey

00:33:57.920 but you know

00:33:58.920 he's got to go to the rink

00:33:59.800 with all these coaches

00:34:00.640 and he spends

00:34:02.520 you know

00:34:02.760 maybe a couple hours

00:34:04.360 six days a week

00:34:05.700 on the ice

00:34:06.180 but if you go talk

00:34:07.100 to the old guys 0.85

00:34:07.720 from the NHL

00:34:08.380 they grew up in Canada

00:34:09.360 they played on ponds

00:34:10.520 they were outside

00:34:11.260 10 hours a day

00:34:13.020 just playing hockey

00:34:14.840 same with basketball

00:34:16.140 my father growing up

00:34:17.160 they were out on the court

00:34:17.980 you know

00:34:18.640 when they weren't in school

00:34:19.480 they were on the basketball court

00:34:20.680 playing hour after hour

00:34:22.020 after hour

00:34:22.680 and in Brooklyn

00:34:23.720 which is where

00:34:24.460 these Brooklyn rules come from

00:34:25.860 and a bunch of these players

00:34:26.680 were from Brooklyn actually

00:34:27.980 the rule is

00:34:29.480 if you make a basket

00:34:30.520 you keep the ball

00:34:31.360 let's make it take it

00:34:32.640 and if you lose the game

00:34:34.500 you have to leave the court

00:34:35.780 and the next team comes up

00:34:37.260 so there was an incredible incentive

00:34:38.720 to win

00:34:40.220 because if you lose

00:34:42.100 you stop playing

00:34:43.000 so I just felt like

00:34:44.640 there was a whole

00:34:45.360 ethic of that

00:34:46.700 and it made them

00:34:47.240 incredibly resilient

00:34:48.180 because when they got

00:34:48.860 knocked down or hurt

00:34:49.780 they had to call

00:34:50.820 their own fouls

00:34:51.820 and you played

00:34:52.540 no matter how you felt

00:34:53.560 no it reminds me

00:34:55.700 of

00:34:56.740 you know

00:34:57.340 the difference between

00:34:58.040 you know

00:34:58.600 back then and today

00:34:59.520 it reminds me of Kierkegaard

00:35:01.140 I know you studied

00:35:02.000 philosophy

00:35:02.580 when you were in college

00:35:04.240 and Kierkegaard

00:35:05.100 he wrote this essay

00:35:06.220 called

00:35:07.100 The Two Ages

00:35:07.800 and he did a

00:35:09.320 compare and contrast

00:35:10.200 of what he saw

00:35:11.160 as two ages

00:35:11.760 in human history

00:35:12.480 there was

00:35:13.020 the age of passion

00:35:14.240 and then there's

00:35:15.440 this reflective age

00:35:16.900 that it lacks passion

00:35:18.700 and he

00:35:19.260 he has this one

00:35:20.140 sort of

00:35:20.620 an example

00:35:21.760 of the difference

00:35:22.980 he talked about

00:35:23.460 this

00:35:23.680 there's this

00:35:24.540 skater

00:35:25.240 ice skater

00:35:25.820 there's this thin ice

00:35:26.660 and there's this

00:35:27.120 treasure in the middle

00:35:28.000 of the ice

00:35:28.520 and the sort of

00:35:29.580 amateur skater

00:35:30.620 who with daring

00:35:31.400 and boldness

00:35:32.100 goes out there

00:35:33.420 and just with

00:35:34.740 passion

00:35:35.320 goes gets this

00:35:36.300 treasure

00:35:36.740 and everyone

00:35:37.820 applauds that

00:35:38.420 in an age of passion

00:35:39.240 and he says

00:35:39.620 in a reflective age

00:35:40.780 passion has been

00:35:42.160 replaced with skill

00:35:43.340 so you get this skater

00:35:44.760 who's really good

00:35:45.400 at skating

00:35:45.820 he's talented

00:35:46.540 he doesn't require

00:35:48.520 any passion

00:35:49.180 or any sort of

00:35:50.240 risk taking

00:35:51.180 because he's so good

00:35:52.040 he can get the treasure

00:35:52.820 without any danger

00:35:53.720 it just becomes

00:35:55.240 theater almost

00:35:56.000 it no longer

00:35:56.700 has stakes anymore

00:35:57.680 so it's not as

00:35:58.420 not as fun

00:35:59.160 I think it's the same

00:35:59.660 thing

00:35:59.880 I think the game

00:36:00.620 today

00:36:00.880 like you said

00:36:01.360 these guys

00:36:02.280 they're awesome

00:36:03.220 they're probably

00:36:03.800 the best we've ever

00:36:04.740 had

00:36:05.040 but they're so

00:36:06.360 skilled

00:36:06.820 it lacks

00:36:07.600 some of that

00:36:08.580 passion

00:36:08.960 does that make sense

00:36:09.700 yeah

00:36:10.140 yes

00:36:11.100 well also

00:36:11.900 you know

00:36:12.480 I've really seen it

00:36:13.180 with youth hockey

00:36:14.080 compared to when I

00:36:15.160 played hockey

00:36:15.600 which is

00:36:16.000 they break

00:36:16.980 and they do this

00:36:17.480 basketball too

00:36:18.180 they break

00:36:18.820 the act

00:36:20.060 of playing

00:36:20.600 into a series

00:36:21.480 of movements

00:36:22.500 and they teach

00:36:23.240 those movements

00:36:24.100 then they have

00:36:25.160 tryouts

00:36:25.800 where they

00:36:26.200 choose kids

00:36:27.060 who have

00:36:27.560 perfect form

00:36:29.140 that they've been

00:36:30.400 working on

00:36:30.960 same with football

00:36:31.660 quarterbacks

00:36:32.320 and it's like

00:36:33.980 we were saying

00:36:34.300 before about

00:36:34.820 competition

00:36:35.380 you don't really

00:36:36.500 know if a kid's

00:36:37.220 like a player

00:36:38.180 or whatever

00:36:38.820 until

00:36:39.540 not how he plays

00:36:40.800 in a game

00:36:41.420 but if he has to

00:36:42.180 play five games

00:36:42.980 on a weekend

00:36:43.560 what's going on

00:36:45.200 in the middle

00:36:45.780 of game four

00:36:46.580 when they're down

00:36:47.220 by you know

00:36:47.880 20 points

00:36:48.700 is he still

00:36:49.740 playing

00:36:50.260 is he still

00:36:51.280 working

00:36:51.780 that's when

00:36:52.640 you figure it out

00:36:53.400 and you only

00:36:53.920 can figure it out

00:36:54.580 by actually

00:36:55.500 watching it

00:36:56.140 and I would add

00:36:56.820 to Kierkegaard's

00:36:57.680 thing

00:36:57.900 another thing

00:36:59.200 that I think

00:36:59.640 hugely

00:37:00.220 changed everything

00:37:01.480 which is the

00:37:02.760 whole

00:37:03.140 inner of the

00:37:04.240 algorithm

00:37:04.800 and the math

00:37:06.220 people

00:37:06.660 yeah

00:37:07.000 Kierkegaard talks

00:37:08.060 about that

00:37:08.620 he was a big

00:37:09.360 critic of Hegel

00:37:10.160 who was all about

00:37:10.880 you had to find

00:37:11.780 discover the system

00:37:12.720 and once you know

00:37:13.200 the system

00:37:13.780 you'll know the

00:37:14.740 meaning of life

00:37:15.320 you don't have to

00:37:15.700 think about it

00:37:16.320 anymore

00:37:16.540 Kierkegaard 0.99

00:37:16.960 that was dumb 0.98

00:37:17.760 right 0.99

00:37:18.960 well what they're

00:37:19.900 doing is they

00:37:20.400 kind of reverse

00:37:21.040 engineer everything

00:37:21.980 so like it's as if

00:37:23.900 you don't know

00:37:24.680 how to talk to a

00:37:25.620 person naturally

00:37:26.480 so you learn a

00:37:27.720 series of techniques

00:37:28.980 to talk to somebody

00:37:30.040 now if you're good

00:37:30.980 at talking to

00:37:31.520 somebody you just

00:37:32.040 do it naturally

00:37:32.900 you have all these

00:37:33.800 people that have

00:37:34.340 learned it kind of

00:37:35.040 backwards

00:37:35.560 so you know

00:37:37.380 they're perfect

00:37:38.260 but there's

00:37:39.260 something missing

00:37:40.040 like a little bit

00:37:40.920 of soul

00:37:41.500 and the thing

00:37:43.220 with the algorithm

00:37:43.920 is look at

00:37:45.360 basketball

00:37:45.860 which is

00:37:46.560 so talking about

00:37:47.900 how basketball

00:37:48.480 has changed

00:37:49.120 it's the

00:37:50.220 three-point shot

00:37:51.040 was introduced

00:37:51.760 Larry Bird's

00:37:52.760 rookie year

00:37:53.420 into the NBA

00:37:54.140 and it existed

00:37:56.380 for a long time

00:37:57.460 as it was

00:37:58.320 intended to exist

00:37:59.700 which is

00:38:00.880 you know

00:38:01.680 if a team is

00:38:02.320 down by

00:38:03.160 nine points

00:38:04.420 with a minute

00:38:04.900 left

00:38:05.320 fans can stay

00:38:06.840 and watch

00:38:07.340 because there's

00:38:07.700 a chance

00:38:08.180 they can hit

00:38:08.600 three threes

00:38:09.120 in a row

00:38:09.540 and tie the game

00:38:10.320 as opposed to

00:38:11.200 everybody thinking

00:38:11.740 the game is over

00:38:12.460 and filing

00:38:12.940 out

00:38:13.320 but somebody

00:38:14.220 did the math

00:38:15.080 when algorithms

00:38:16.220 started changing

00:38:16.920 baseball and football

00:38:18.020 and everything else

00:38:18.960 and realized

00:38:20.120 probably with

00:38:20.800 you know

00:38:21.040 computers

00:38:21.540 that we're

00:38:22.500 better off

00:38:23.260 taking

00:38:24.080 basically

00:38:25.080 a hundred percent

00:38:26.480 of our shots

00:38:27.160 as three-point shots

00:38:28.360 and making

00:38:29.220 thirty percent

00:38:30.080 of them

00:38:30.500 than taking

00:38:31.420 all these two-point

00:38:32.280 shots

00:38:32.640 and making

00:38:33.140 sixty percent

00:38:33.840 of them

00:38:34.160 we will win

00:38:35.060 if we take

00:38:35.600 only three-point

00:38:36.300 shots

00:38:36.620 and that's

00:38:37.540 a little bit

00:38:38.020 of an exaggeration

00:38:38.760 because obviously

00:38:39.300 we don't take

00:38:39.680 only three-point

00:38:40.400 shots

00:38:40.640 but almost

00:38:41.380 and that's

00:38:42.580 changed the

00:38:43.140 entire game

00:38:43.940 and it's

00:38:44.300 the game

00:38:44.640 is taught

00:38:45.120 that way

00:38:45.720 and you

00:38:47.060 lose

00:38:47.360 it's kind

00:38:47.900 of like

00:38:48.120 an unintended

00:38:48.740 consequences

00:38:49.740 thing

00:38:50.140 you know

00:38:50.820 you make

00:38:51.180 this little

00:38:51.740 rule change

00:38:52.700 and everything

00:38:53.420 around it

00:38:54.020 changes

00:38:54.440 and I do

00:38:55.900 think that

00:38:56.440 some of the

00:38:56.960 fun

00:38:57.520 and some

00:38:58.760 of the play

00:38:59.300 is gone

00:38:59.700 of it

00:38:59.920 and another

00:39:00.340 thing that

00:39:00.780 was said

00:39:01.280 to me

00:39:01.560 this is

00:39:01.920 about my

00:39:02.360 Bears

00:39:02.680 book

00:39:02.940 I asked

00:39:03.340 the owner

00:39:03.740 one of the

00:39:04.160 owners of

00:39:04.540 the Chicago

00:39:05.000 Bears

00:39:05.360 why the

00:39:06.620 players aren't

00:39:07.400 connected

00:39:07.960 with the

00:39:08.600 fans

00:39:09.160 I feel

00:39:10.340 like they're

00:39:10.640 not the

00:39:11.000 way that

00:39:11.400 they were

00:39:11.860 when I

00:39:12.200 was a

00:39:12.480 kid

00:39:12.700 like I

00:39:13.080 was talking

00:39:13.580 about feeding

00:39:14.160 off the

00:39:14.580 energy of

00:39:15.020 the city

00:39:15.380 and some

00:39:16.480 of it of

00:39:16.820 course is

00:39:17.260 free agency

00:39:17.880 and all that

00:39:18.420 but he said

00:39:18.880 it's because

00:39:19.180 of the

00:39:19.440 phones

00:39:19.900 because they

00:39:20.780 come out

00:39:21.240 of the

00:39:21.460 locker room

00:39:22.140 and all

00:39:23.040 the fans

00:39:23.540 are standing

00:39:24.140 after the

00:39:24.660 game and

00:39:25.060 they're all

00:39:25.320 looking at

00:39:25.700 their phones

00:39:26.260 they're not

00:39:27.060 interacting with

00:39:27.760 the fans

00:39:28.160 at all

00:39:28.480 just like

00:39:28.840 everybody

00:39:29.180 else

00:39:29.620 I remember

00:39:30.560 as a

00:39:30.880 Chicago

00:39:31.240 Cubs fan

00:39:31.940 after every

00:39:32.620 home game

00:39:33.180 Mark

00:39:33.860 Grace who

00:39:34.540 was the

00:39:34.800 first baseman

00:39:35.420 would go to

00:39:36.240 Murphys across

00:39:37.060 the street

00:39:37.480 and drink

00:39:38.160 with the

00:39:39.180 fans

00:39:39.560 and that

00:39:40.600 just gives you

00:39:41.120 a completely

00:39:41.520 different connection

00:39:42.200 to the game

00:39:42.720 and I would

00:39:43.200 like Kierkegaard

00:39:44.060 to sit with

00:39:44.580 me and

00:39:44.980 explain to

00:39:45.460 me what's

00:39:45.760 going on

00:39:46.080 in the

00:39:46.300 current NFL

00:39:47.040 game because

00:39:47.500 I'd like to

00:39:47.800 hear what he

00:39:48.100 has to say

00:39:48.680 I mean NBA

00:39:49.700 game

00:39:50.020 so going back

00:39:50.800 to Isaiah

00:39:51.380 Thomas

00:39:51.760 he's often

00:39:52.900 given the

00:39:53.760 short shrift

00:39:54.380 when you know

00:39:55.260 they make the

00:39:55.700 list of

00:39:56.020 greatest NBA

00:39:56.820 players

00:39:57.360 why do you

00:39:58.240 think that

00:39:58.520 is

00:39:58.800 I think

00:39:59.740 two reasons

00:40:00.540 okay first

00:40:01.460 is the

00:40:01.860 big reason

00:40:02.420 is

00:40:02.760 Michael Jordan

00:40:04.280 and Isaiah

00:40:05.140 Thomas were

00:40:05.800 involved in

00:40:06.500 a battle

00:40:06.940 over the

00:40:07.420 hearts and

00:40:07.880 minds of

00:40:08.340 Chicago fans

00:40:09.220 Isaiah was

00:40:10.780 a Chicago

00:40:11.360 bred player

00:40:12.440 he played

00:40:12.960 the Chicago

00:40:13.520 style of

00:40:14.120 basketball

00:40:14.560 and he

00:40:15.420 wanted to

00:40:15.840 be famous

00:40:16.400 and popular

00:40:17.000 in his

00:40:17.520 hometown

00:40:17.840 he grew up

00:40:19.040 just a couple

00:40:19.520 blocks from

00:40:20.000 Chicago Stadium

00:40:20.740 where the

00:40:21.080 Bulls played

00:40:21.600 and then

00:40:22.740 Jordan came 0.91

00:40:23.340 along from

00:40:24.420 North Carolina

00:40:25.260 and suddenly

00:40:26.800 Jordan was

00:40:27.660 the favorite

00:40:28.160 not Isaiah

00:40:29.140 and it became

00:40:30.160 this very nasty

00:40:31.160 battle between

00:40:31.840 these two guys

00:40:32.740 then between

00:40:33.560 the Pistons

00:40:34.120 and the Bulls

00:40:34.700 that went on

00:40:35.080 for about

00:40:35.440 four seasons

00:40:36.620 really nasty

00:40:38.000 and I always

00:40:40.060 say it was

00:40:40.320 like a local

00:40:40.880 battle it's

00:40:41.380 like the battle

00:40:41.840 between the

00:40:42.300 early sects

00:40:43.040 of Christians

00:40:43.520 and Jews

00:40:44.140 and suddenly

00:40:44.920 Michael Jordan

00:40:45.600 became the

00:40:46.080 official religion

00:40:46.940 and Isaiah

00:40:47.840 went from

00:40:48.300 like a local

00:40:48.920 enemy into

00:40:49.680 a national

00:40:50.340 foe

00:40:51.320 you know

00:40:51.840 so when you

00:40:52.220 see like

00:40:52.600 the last

00:40:53.060 dance

00:40:53.540 which everybody

00:40:54.540 watched during

00:40:55.160 the quarantine

00:40:55.940 pretty much

00:40:56.680 you really see

00:40:58.300 Isaiah Thomas

00:40:59.060 presented as

00:40:59.800 sort of the

00:41:00.260 devil in the

00:41:00.840 garden

00:41:01.160 you know

00:41:01.820 and that

00:41:02.840 was just

00:41:03.220 like a

00:41:03.540 local

00:41:03.820 battle

00:41:04.180 that became

00:41:04.860 a national

00:41:06.440 thing

00:41:06.800 and I think

00:41:07.140 that destroyed

00:41:07.680 his reputation

00:41:08.420 that and

00:41:09.660 also the team

00:41:10.360 he played on

00:41:11.120 played a very

00:41:12.140 violent rough

00:41:13.000 dirty kind of

00:41:13.680 basketball

00:41:14.140 because that

00:41:15.320 was the pieces

00:41:16.040 they had

00:41:16.500 if he played

00:41:17.040 on a different

00:41:17.540 team he would

00:41:18.060 have played

00:41:18.320 a different

00:41:18.680 style

00:41:19.100 that was how

00:41:20.040 he had a

00:41:20.400 win with

00:41:20.720 that team

00:41:21.160 he sublimated

00:41:22.080 Isaiah

00:41:22.520 his own

00:41:23.480 talent

00:41:23.980 for the good

00:41:25.020 of the team

00:41:25.540 he could have

00:41:26.040 scored 35

00:41:26.880 40 points a

00:41:27.600 night

00:41:27.780 but he knew

00:41:28.420 that's not how

00:41:28.960 the Pistons

00:41:29.380 were going to

00:41:29.740 win

00:41:29.920 and then

00:41:30.600 the other

00:41:30.920 thing is

00:41:31.540 Isaiah

00:41:32.020 is

00:41:32.660 you know

00:41:33.740 he's a 0.99

00:41:34.100 nasty guy 0.99

00:41:35.320 just like 1.00

00:41:36.160 these other

00:41:36.560 guys

00:41:37.000 except the

00:41:38.000 difference is

00:41:38.760 that like

00:41:39.760 Michael Jordan

00:41:40.660 and Magic Johnson

00:41:41.520 and Larry Bird

00:41:42.240 no one to turn it

00:41:43.060 on and no one to

00:41:43.640 turn it off

00:41:44.240 and Isaiah

00:41:44.900 would go out in

00:41:45.460 front of the

00:41:45.780 cameras

00:41:46.080 just a couple

00:41:46.780 days ago

00:41:47.220 he said

00:41:47.600 something nasty

00:41:48.180 about Michael

00:41:48.700 Jordan

00:41:48.980 why

00:41:49.380 he can't

00:41:50.320 help himself

00:41:50.880 you know

00:41:51.580 he just

00:41:52.060 says nasty

00:41:53.220 things

00:41:53.560 and when

00:41:53.900 Dennis Rodman

00:41:54.640 said

00:41:55.100 Dennis Rodman

00:41:56.580 was a rookie

00:41:57.180 he'd just

00:41:58.040 been completely

00:41:58.720 humiliated by

00:41:59.580 Larry Bird

00:42:00.140 in this

00:42:00.480 playoff game

00:42:01.520 Bird had won

00:42:02.280 the MVP

00:42:02.700 and he said

00:42:03.920 he only won

00:42:04.660 it because

00:42:04.880 he's white

00:42:05.340 and if he's 0.99

00:42:06.000 black he would 0.98

00:42:06.460 have been 1.00

00:42:06.660 just another

00:42:07.140 player

00:42:07.380 now

00:42:07.620 Dennis Rodman

00:42:08.560 is Dennis

00:42:09.040 Rodman

00:42:09.440 he says

00:42:09.960 stuff

00:42:10.380 and he was

00:42:11.140 a rookie

00:42:11.580 and he just

00:42:12.520 had this

00:42:12.920 horrible

00:42:13.260 moment

00:42:13.780 in his

00:42:14.220 life

00:42:14.560 and then

00:42:15.400 they went

00:42:15.680 to Isaiah

00:42:16.300 and asked

00:42:17.020 him

00:42:17.580 what do

00:42:18.640 you think

00:42:19.040 and he

00:42:19.320 said

00:42:19.500 I agree

00:42:20.200 I agree

00:42:21.360 with what

00:42:21.780 Dennis said

00:42:22.440 and that

00:42:23.180 became the

00:42:23.720 big story

00:42:24.280 and that

00:42:24.960 marked him

00:42:25.820 for the rest

00:42:26.320 of his

00:42:26.620 career

00:42:26.940 and the

00:42:28.320 fact is

00:42:28.700 I don't

00:42:29.000 believe he

00:42:29.500 believed that

00:42:30.120 I believed

00:42:30.760 he

00:42:31.120 Isaiah knows

00:42:32.260 how good

00:42:32.740 Larry Bird

00:42:33.360 was

00:42:33.720 but he

00:42:34.220 was pissed

00:42:34.720 off

00:42:35.140 and he

00:42:35.680 was angry

00:42:36.300 and he

00:42:36.880 thought he

00:42:37.140 was supporting

00:42:37.700 a young

00:42:38.140 guy on his

00:42:38.700 team

00:42:39.060 and he

00:42:39.700 backed

00:42:40.060 him up

00:42:40.500 and it

00:42:41.080 you know

00:42:41.360 that's the

00:42:41.820 kind of

00:42:42.080 thing

00:42:42.300 that he

00:42:42.740 just

00:42:43.080 could

00:42:43.280 not

00:42:43.640 he did

00:42:44.700 not know

00:42:45.000 when to

00:42:45.260 stop

00:42:45.480 talking

00:42:45.920 basically

00:42:46.440 I was

00:42:47.600 talking about

00:42:47.860 Jordan

00:42:48.300 what made

00:42:48.960 Jordan

00:42:49.320 the greatest

00:42:50.440 NBA player

00:42:51.160 greatest

00:42:51.560 athlete

00:42:52.120 of all

00:42:52.700 time

00:42:52.980 well first

00:42:53.560 of all

00:42:53.980 you realize

00:42:55.120 that being

00:42:55.620 great

00:42:56.100 and winning

00:42:56.620 is not

00:42:57.280 good enough

00:42:57.820 to be

00:42:58.140 an all-time

00:42:58.800 great

00:42:59.120 there's

00:42:59.760 another

00:43:00.080 element

00:43:00.520 which is

00:43:00.980 kind of

00:43:01.340 style

00:43:01.960 or charisma

00:43:03.320 and Jordan

00:43:04.500 had this

00:43:05.000 incredible

00:43:05.560 charisma

00:43:06.180 he was

00:43:06.980 beautiful

00:43:07.620 his game

00:43:08.800 was beautiful

00:43:09.440 he looked

00:43:10.540 beautiful

00:43:11.020 and when you

00:43:12.100 watched him

00:43:12.760 you couldn't

00:43:13.300 take your

00:43:13.740 eyes off

00:43:14.300 of him

00:43:14.580 and he

00:43:15.600 changed

00:43:16.140 the way

00:43:16.560 the game

00:43:17.060 looked

00:43:17.520 and the way

00:43:18.020 you know

00:43:18.280 after we

00:43:18.800 watched

00:43:19.160 Jordan

00:43:19.540 we'd

00:43:20.160 all

00:43:20.320 go

00:43:20.520 into

00:43:20.680 our

00:43:20.840 driveways

00:43:21.380 and

00:43:21.560 play

00:43:21.880 try

00:43:22.220 to

00:43:22.400 play

00:43:22.600 we

00:43:22.740 couldn't

00:43:22.940 play

00:43:23.080 offense

00:43:23.460 like

00:43:23.640 Michael

00:43:23.900 Jordan

00:43:24.180 but the way

00:43:24.940 he would

00:43:25.240 lean in

00:43:25.720 and slap 1.00

00:43:26.180 at the

00:43:26.440 ball

00:43:26.820 and then

00:43:27.620 of course

00:43:28.020 famously

00:43:28.680 before

00:43:29.440 Jordan

00:43:29.960 everybody wore

00:43:32.300 these short

00:43:32.980 shorts

00:43:33.540 in basketball

00:43:34.760 that's why

00:43:35.640 when you look

00:43:36.020 at the old

00:43:36.360 games

00:43:36.620 it's shocking

00:43:37.320 how short

00:43:37.860 their shorts

00:43:38.320 are

00:43:38.620 Jordan

00:43:39.420 started

00:43:39.740 wearing

00:43:40.040 long

00:43:40.500 shorts

00:43:41.000 supposedly

00:43:41.580 so he

00:43:42.020 could wear

00:43:42.380 his

00:43:42.600 University

00:43:43.100 of North

00:43:43.460 Carolina

00:43:43.880 shorts

00:43:44.280 underneath

00:43:44.820 because those

00:43:45.940 were his

00:43:46.200 lucky

00:43:46.460 shorts

00:43:46.920 and people

00:43:47.940 at first

00:43:48.320 made fun

00:43:48.820 of Jordan

00:43:49.180 when he wore

00:43:49.640 those long

00:43:50.080 shorts

00:43:50.380 and within

00:43:50.700 two years

00:43:51.420 everybody

00:43:52.440 in the league

00:43:53.020 was wearing

00:43:53.480 their shorts

00:43:54.060 the same

00:43:54.540 way

00:43:54.760 and for

00:43:55.120 no reason

00:43:55.680 and then

00:43:56.440 a year

00:43:56.720 after that

00:43:57.280 when you

00:43:57.560 went into

00:43:57.860 the banana

00:43:58.220 republic

00:43:58.840 or the

00:44:00.060 gap

00:44:00.460 you could

00:44:01.080 only buy

00:44:01.520 long

00:44:01.860 shorts

00:44:02.240 so he

00:44:03.300 basically

00:44:03.860 changed

00:44:04.320 the way

00:44:04.680 it looks

00:44:05.280 when you

00:44:05.500 go to

00:44:05.700 the beach

00:44:06.200 to this

00:44:06.840 day

00:44:07.180 and one

00:44:08.120 of the

00:44:08.300 iconic

00:44:08.780 images

00:44:09.220 of Jordan

00:44:09.680 is at

00:44:10.000 the free

00:44:10.320 throw line

00:44:10.880 bending

00:44:11.620 over

00:44:12.100 gripping

00:44:12.780 all that

00:44:13.300 extra

00:44:13.600 fabric of

00:44:14.280 his shorts

00:44:14.740 which we

00:44:15.080 would all

00:44:15.480 imitate

00:44:16.260 so that

00:44:16.740 I think

00:44:17.160 that the

00:44:17.480 really

00:44:17.820 really

00:44:18.280 great

00:44:19.080 players

00:44:19.460 like him

00:44:20.120 changed

00:44:21.060 the way

00:44:21.460 everybody

00:44:22.320 looks

00:44:22.780 the way

00:44:23.120 the game

00:44:23.540 looks

00:44:23.840 and the

00:44:24.240 style

00:44:24.600 and then

00:44:25.380 of course

00:44:25.740 Jordan

00:44:26.060 did everything

00:44:26.680 else

00:44:27.020 he could

00:44:27.360 win

00:44:27.740 on his

00:44:28.780 own

00:44:29.040 you know

00:44:29.780 ultimately

00:44:30.220 he couldn't

00:44:30.700 but he

00:44:30.960 could score

00:44:31.380 64 points

00:44:32.480 if he

00:44:33.100 wanted to

00:44:33.580 in a night

00:44:34.120 against a

00:44:34.620 great team

00:44:34.980 like the

00:44:35.320 Celtics

00:44:35.660 or he

00:44:36.640 could

00:44:36.820 sublimate

00:44:37.280 his game

00:44:37.860 to a degree

00:44:38.300 where he

00:44:38.640 distributed

00:44:39.080 the ball

00:44:39.480 and helped

00:44:40.260 everybody else

00:44:41.160 win

00:44:41.480 and then

00:44:42.240 he did

00:44:42.540 things like

00:44:43.040 when he

00:44:43.340 retired

00:44:43.880 to play

00:44:44.960 baseball

00:44:45.380 for a year

00:44:46.600 and a half

00:44:47.040 or whatever

00:44:47.400 missed two

00:44:47.860 NBA seasons

00:44:48.600 and he

00:44:49.240 came back

00:44:49.680 in the

00:44:49.900 playoffs

00:44:50.380 and he

00:44:51.160 lost

00:44:51.760 to the

00:44:52.280 Orlando

00:44:52.640 Magic

00:44:53.120 and Penny

00:44:53.980 Hardaway

00:44:54.520 they made

00:44:55.020 kind of

00:44:55.620 made fun

00:44:56.120 of him

00:44:56.440 he went

00:44:57.480 out

00:44:57.800 and he

00:44:58.220 worked

00:44:58.740 like

00:44:59.060 crazy

00:44:59.940 to get

00:45:00.300 in his

00:45:00.520 shape

00:45:00.800 and came

00:45:01.400 back

00:45:01.640 and won

00:45:01.920 three more

00:45:02.320 championships

00:45:02.840 just because

00:45:03.400 he was

00:45:03.680 mad

00:45:04.120 just because

00:45:05.000 he couldn't

00:45:05.400 stand being

00:45:05.980 made fun

00:45:06.520 of

00:45:06.760 and talk

00:45:07.580 about

00:45:07.800 competitive

00:45:08.340 you know

00:45:08.760 he's the

00:45:09.100 guy who

00:45:09.400 went to

00:45:09.660 the NBA

00:45:10.160 Hall of Fame

00:45:10.900 induction

00:45:11.320 and trashed

00:45:12.940 everybody who

00:45:13.580 treated him

00:45:14.180 wrong

00:45:14.520 including guys

00:45:15.560 from high

00:45:16.080 school

00:45:16.380 you know

00:45:17.440 so I

00:45:18.480 think that

00:45:18.940 Jordan was

00:45:19.340 just one

00:45:19.740 of those

00:45:20.140 athletes

00:45:20.700 that sort

00:45:22.280 of gave

00:45:22.640 birth to

00:45:23.080 the modern

00:45:23.480 game

00:45:23.740 built on

00:45:24.300 the shoulders

00:45:24.840 of bird

00:45:25.520 and magic

00:45:26.080 he gave

00:45:27.220 birth to

00:45:27.720 modern

00:45:27.980 basketball

00:45:28.480 and I

00:45:28.900 still believe

00:45:29.680 that he

00:45:30.460 would be the

00:45:30.820 best player

00:45:31.380 if he were

00:45:32.040 coming up

00:45:32.480 today

00:45:32.800 yeah Jordan

00:45:33.620 had that

00:45:34.060 Kikigartian

00:45:34.700 passion

00:45:35.140 I'm watching

00:45:36.280 the last dance

00:45:37.420 and I just

00:45:37.960 finished the episode

00:45:38.680 where Jordan

00:45:39.860 broke his

00:45:40.300 foot

00:45:40.580 and there

00:45:41.700 was this

00:45:41.980 battle

00:45:42.360 between him

00:45:43.360 and the

00:45:43.980 front office

00:45:44.780 Jerry Krause

00:45:45.840 right where

00:45:46.700 they just

00:45:47.080 wanted

00:45:47.420 the front

00:45:48.320 office is

00:45:49.020 emblematic of

00:45:49.980 the reflective

00:45:50.540 age

00:45:51.000 they're just

00:45:51.520 thinking about

00:45:51.980 business

00:45:52.500 how can we

00:45:53.360 get the

00:45:53.680 most out

00:45:54.140 of this

00:45:54.400 player

00:45:54.840 even if

00:45:55.500 we do

00:45:55.800 lose

00:45:56.100 it's okay

00:45:56.640 because then

00:45:57.100 we can

00:45:57.360 get a

00:45:57.800 higher pick

00:45:58.580 in the

00:45:58.800 draft

00:45:59.180 and Jordan

00:46:00.740 just thought

00:46:01.580 that was the 0.99

00:46:01.980 dumbest thing 1.00

00:46:02.400 as well 1.00

00:46:02.600 no I want

00:46:03.120 to play

00:46:03.560 like the

00:46:04.200 point of the

00:46:04.920 game is to

00:46:05.380 win

00:46:05.700 it's not

00:46:06.440 doing this

00:46:07.040 that's what

00:46:07.800 you do

00:46:08.180 even if

00:46:08.760 I had to

00:46:09.400 play hurt

00:46:09.900 I'm going

00:46:10.560 to play

00:46:10.940 and it

00:46:11.680 doesn't matter

00:46:12.200 if it hurts

00:46:12.820 your investment

00:46:13.680 and the idea

00:46:15.300 that in the

00:46:16.380 larger sense

00:46:17.140 at a certain

00:46:18.100 point in the

00:46:18.560 season there's

00:46:19.040 nothing at stake

00:46:20.040 which is a

00:46:20.980 very much a

00:46:21.500 thing you see

00:46:21.940 now where

00:46:22.300 teams tank

00:46:23.040 you know they

00:46:23.940 make rules

00:46:24.360 against it to

00:46:24.940 get draft

00:46:25.380 picks

00:46:25.580 everything is

00:46:27.120 at stake

00:46:27.620 every time

00:46:28.360 you play

00:46:28.780 by the way

00:46:29.780 that's similar

00:46:30.460 to writing

00:46:30.940 which is every

00:46:31.880 time you write

00:46:32.440 something everything

00:46:33.340 is at stake

00:46:34.020 you live and

00:46:35.060 die with it

00:46:35.620 and I think

00:46:36.260 that's how

00:46:36.820 Jordan and

00:46:37.600 all these

00:46:37.960 guys all of

00:46:38.720 these players

00:46:39.220 that I wrote

00:46:39.620 about approach

00:46:40.640 basketball which

00:46:41.800 is there were

00:46:42.380 no games that

00:46:43.280 were meaningless

00:46:43.880 you know there

00:46:45.240 were no games

00:46:45.960 that didn't

00:46:46.300 matter everything

00:46:47.040 was at stake

00:46:47.820 every time they

00:46:48.740 played and not

00:46:49.840 just the season

00:46:50.880 but their ego

00:46:51.880 and their sense

00:46:53.020 of themselves and

00:46:54.600 that's why it

00:46:55.200 was so hard to

00:46:56.320 lose because when

00:46:57.560 it's you lose

00:46:58.300 you're diminished

00:46:59.020 and you kind of

00:46:59.780 die a little

00:47:00.380 so that's the

00:47:01.980 intensity

00:47:02.500 so you also

00:47:03.500 feature other

00:47:04.360 characters that

00:47:05.020 were just getting

00:47:05.740 their start

00:47:06.340 during the season

00:47:07.080 and one of them

00:47:07.840 is Phil Jackson

00:47:08.900 and Phil Jackson

00:47:10.180 he's a weird

00:47:10.940 guy he's he's

00:47:11.940 not your typical

00:47:12.700 you think of a

00:47:13.600 basketball coach

00:47:14.520 what was Phil

00:47:16.260 Jackson's role

00:47:17.260 during the 87

00:47:18.220 88 season

00:47:19.160 well Phil Jackson

00:47:21.380 was kind of you

00:47:22.320 know a hippie

00:47:22.900 basketball player

00:47:23.760 in New York

00:47:24.260 who used to

00:47:24.900 walk through

00:47:25.840 the village

00:47:26.300 and had long

00:47:27.020 hair and

00:47:27.660 and won the

00:47:28.900 championship with

00:47:29.720 Bill Bradley

00:47:30.340 and Willis Reed

00:47:31.800 and for the

00:47:33.160 Knicks

00:47:33.460 and he went

00:47:35.160 off and he

00:47:35.600 coached sort

00:47:36.520 of I guess

00:47:37.280 you'd call it

00:47:37.680 minor league

00:47:38.140 basketball in

00:47:39.080 Albany

00:47:39.500 and they'd

00:47:41.640 hired Doug

00:47:42.120 Collins the

00:47:43.160 Bulls to be

00:47:43.880 their coach

00:47:44.240 he went to a

00:47:44.600 lot of coaches

00:47:45.100 early in Jordan's

00:47:45.800 career and

00:47:46.900 Doug Collins

00:47:47.720 people don't

00:47:48.260 remember but

00:47:48.740 he'd been a

00:47:49.180 superstar player

00:47:50.660 who had his

00:47:52.460 career shortened

00:47:53.100 by injury

00:47:53.780 played for the

00:47:54.880 76ers and

00:47:56.360 Doug Collins

00:47:57.280 they were hired

00:47:58.080 him because they

00:47:58.640 thought he could

00:47:59.140 handle Jordan

00:47:59.860 because here was

00:48:00.320 another superstar

00:48:01.080 he could relate

00:48:01.780 to him on that

00:48:02.260 level and when

00:48:03.180 they first met

00:48:04.120 Jackson Jackson

00:48:04.780 was like a hippie

00:48:05.460 with long hair

00:48:06.100 and Kraus who

00:48:07.040 really liked

00:48:07.420 Jackson said

00:48:08.140 come back next

00:48:09.540 year and cut

00:48:10.760 your hair and

00:48:11.780 wear a suit

00:48:12.560 and he got the

00:48:13.880 job and at

00:48:14.580 first his job

00:48:15.420 with the Bulls

00:48:16.320 was sort of to

00:48:17.920 advance scout

00:48:19.380 you know to go

00:48:20.240 on the road and

00:48:20.780 watch the teams

00:48:21.380 where Bulls were

00:48:21.880 gonna play and

00:48:23.580 you know write up

00:48:24.180 reports on him

00:48:25.300 and he was just

00:48:26.840 the opposite of

00:48:28.480 Doug Collins

00:48:29.100 Doug Collins

00:48:29.780 was fiery

00:48:30.980 he was hot

00:48:32.220 he would sweat

00:48:33.340 more than the

00:48:33.920 players playing

00:48:34.560 in the game

00:48:35.120 he went out

00:48:36.060 and got in a

00:48:36.860 fist fight

00:48:37.500 with Rick Mahorn

00:48:38.960 ran out onto

00:48:39.620 the floor

00:48:39.980 he'd be suspended

00:48:40.740 now probably for

00:48:41.340 half a season

00:48:42.060 I think he was

00:48:43.420 fined and it

00:48:44.880 was almost too

00:48:45.640 much like he

00:48:46.820 and Jackson

00:48:47.680 was reserved

00:48:48.960 he was cool

00:48:50.100 he saw what

00:48:51.300 the problem

00:48:51.720 with the Bulls

00:48:52.240 was he saw

00:48:52.920 what needed to

00:48:53.420 be done

00:48:53.820 and by the end

00:48:54.740 of Doug Collins'

00:48:55.420 term he became

00:48:56.520 a little bit like

00:48:57.380 the king in waiting

00:48:58.460 to the point

00:48:59.380 where it really

00:48:59.880 bugged Doug Collins

00:49:01.200 because he knew

00:49:02.100 that his replacement

00:49:02.940 was working for him

00:49:04.220 on the bench

00:49:04.960 so ultimately

00:49:06.360 his role

00:49:07.260 Phil Jackson's role

00:49:08.380 was not to try to

00:49:09.320 relate to Michael

00:49:10.340 superstar to superstar

00:49:11.640 but to teach him

00:49:13.080 something new

00:49:14.000 which Isaiah

00:49:14.920 had already learned

00:49:15.780 which is

00:49:16.600 he had to be

00:49:17.560 less good

00:49:18.560 or less

00:49:20.040 you know

00:49:20.980 of a superstar

00:49:21.840 every night

00:49:22.400 for the team to win

00:49:23.460 the only way

00:49:24.200 to beat a team

00:49:24.840 like the Pistons

00:49:25.700 was a team

00:49:26.620 took a team

00:49:27.900 to beat a team

00:49:29.020 and to do that

00:49:30.220 Jordan had to 0.78

00:49:31.120 sublimate his own

00:49:32.000 talent

00:49:32.400 and he had to

00:49:33.300 convince Jordan

00:49:34.160 to buy into that

00:49:35.220 and Jordan did

00:49:36.440 buy into that

00:49:37.280 and they ultimately

00:49:38.520 won those six titles

00:49:39.640 and something else

00:49:41.100 you talk about

00:49:41.520 in the book

00:49:41.860 is you know

00:49:42.340 his unique philosophy

00:49:43.680 towards basketball

00:49:44.520 and he incorporated

00:49:45.400 Zen

00:49:46.320 like he's really

00:49:47.100 big into Zen

00:49:47.700 then he also

00:49:48.540 had these rules

00:49:49.440 or these sort of

00:49:50.220 guidelines

00:49:50.700 he would talk

00:49:51.300 to his players

00:49:51.780 about that were

00:49:52.320 inspired

00:49:52.900 they were taken

00:49:53.400 from Thelonious Monk

00:49:54.620 the jazz pianist

00:49:57.220 what were some

00:49:57.960 of those rules

00:49:58.380 that Jackson

00:49:58.900 talked about

00:49:59.480 yeah

00:50:00.000 so he had

00:50:01.500 these rules

00:50:02.040 that he adapted

00:50:02.760 from Thelonious Monk

00:50:03.880 great jazz musician

00:50:04.800 which is one

00:50:05.580 just because

00:50:06.460 you're not

00:50:06.960 a drummer

00:50:07.540 doesn't mean

00:50:08.540 you don't have

00:50:09.120 to keep time

00:50:09.980 two

00:50:11.320 stop playing

00:50:12.740 all those weird

00:50:13.580 notes 1.00

00:50:14.040 that's bullshit 0.99

00:50:14.940 play the melody 0.99

00:50:16.460 three

00:50:17.900 make the drummer

00:50:19.380 sound good

00:50:20.160 four

00:50:21.260 don't play

00:50:22.380 the piano part

00:50:23.340 I'm playing

00:50:24.220 that

00:50:24.620 five

00:50:25.800 don't play

00:50:26.840 everything

00:50:27.520 or every time

00:50:28.640 let some things

00:50:29.960 go by

00:50:30.600 what you don't

00:50:31.740 play can be

00:50:32.400 more important

00:50:33.180 than what you

00:50:33.780 do

00:50:34.220 six

00:50:35.740 when you're

00:50:36.580 swinging

00:50:37.020 swing more

00:50:38.180 seven

00:50:39.360 whatever you

00:50:40.320 think can't

00:50:40.980 be done

00:50:41.380 somebody will

00:50:42.280 come along

00:50:42.880 and do it

00:50:43.660 a genius

00:50:44.460 is the one

00:50:45.220 most like

00:50:46.000 himself

00:50:46.620 eight

00:50:47.860 you gotta

00:50:48.920 dig it

00:50:49.460 to dig it

00:50:50.180 you dig

00:50:50.940 now it's

00:50:52.940 interesting

00:50:53.260 because

00:50:53.540 Phil Jackson

00:50:54.460 was a big

00:50:54.960 you know

00:50:55.620 music fan

00:50:56.220 and jazz

00:50:56.640 fan

00:50:56.900 and he

00:50:57.220 wanted the

00:50:57.680 Bulls

00:50:57.920 playing to

00:50:58.500 a rhythm

00:50:58.960 that he

00:50:59.640 taught them

00:51:00.240 that they

00:51:01.040 should be

00:51:01.380 moving the

00:51:01.860 ball around

00:51:02.400 in kind

00:51:02.880 of a rhythm

00:51:03.460 and some

00:51:04.560 of these

00:51:04.880 rules you

00:51:05.300 can even

00:51:05.760 imagine who

00:51:06.400 they're for

00:51:07.000 which is

00:51:08.020 you don't

00:51:08.860 have to play

00:51:09.340 everything

00:51:09.720 every time

00:51:10.420 that's to

00:51:11.020 Jordan

00:51:11.380 which is

00:51:12.660 just because

00:51:13.220 he sees

00:51:13.660 an opportunity

00:51:14.360 to score

00:51:15.100 it might be

00:51:16.300 better at this

00:51:16.960 point in the

00:51:17.360 game to let

00:51:17.900 somebody else

00:51:18.480 score so

00:51:19.380 later on

00:51:20.080 when Jordan

00:51:20.540 is being

00:51:20.840 triple teamed

00:51:21.740 that person

00:51:22.960 that he

00:51:23.220 let score

00:51:23.600 earlier is

00:51:24.260 not going

00:51:24.600 to be

00:51:24.780 incredibly

00:51:25.180 cold

00:51:25.760 because he

00:51:26.600 hasn't shot

00:51:27.240 all game

00:51:27.840 but he's

00:51:28.440 going to be

00:51:28.860 ready to

00:51:29.380 play

00:51:29.720 so you

00:51:30.780 got to

00:51:31.040 get everybody

00:51:31.800 involved

00:51:32.360 all the

00:51:32.960 instruments

00:51:33.440 involved

00:51:33.980 what I

00:51:34.900 like about

00:51:35.400 sports and

00:51:36.060 basketball

00:51:36.420 and writing

00:51:36.800 about him

00:51:37.140 is these

00:51:37.380 are all

00:51:37.800 rules you

00:51:38.300 can apply

00:51:38.680 to your

00:51:38.940 life

00:51:39.280 they will

00:51:39.880 give you

00:51:40.160 a better

00:51:40.420 life

00:51:40.820 and who

00:51:41.760 cooler

00:51:42.260 to make

00:51:43.120 your

00:51:43.280 philosophy

00:51:43.860 than

00:51:44.860 Thelonious

00:51:45.820 Monk

00:51:46.600 by way

00:51:47.280 of Phil

00:51:47.660 Jackson

00:51:48.200 by way of

00:51:49.120 Michael

00:51:49.360 Jordan

00:51:49.760 what made

00:51:51.160 the finals

00:51:52.460 of that

00:51:52.880 87-88

00:51:53.700 season so

00:51:54.380 epic 0.90

00:51:54.760 how did it

00:51:55.400 exemplify the

00:51:56.060 title of your

00:51:56.520 book when the

00:51:57.140 game was war

00:51:58.060 well it was

00:51:59.700 incredibly physical

00:52:00.780 incredibly violent

00:52:01.840 and there were

00:52:02.260 great centers

00:52:03.100 all over the

00:52:03.880 game

00:52:04.260 right

00:52:04.560 it just

00:52:04.820 had to

00:52:05.380 contend with

00:52:05.860 and we

00:52:06.180 had it

00:52:06.440 was the

00:52:06.780 the Lakers

00:52:07.200 and Pistons

00:52:07.700 right

00:52:08.000 right

00:52:09.060 but with the

00:52:09.720 Lakers

00:52:09.980 and Pistons

00:52:10.700 now the

00:52:11.200 Isaiah Thomas

00:52:12.460 and Magic

00:52:13.080 were really

00:52:13.760 good friends

00:52:14.360 and Magic

00:52:15.720 had sort of

00:52:16.440 befriended

00:52:17.120 and mentored

00:52:18.120 Isaiah

00:52:18.740 who was

00:52:19.160 younger

00:52:19.480 and they

00:52:20.580 went on

00:52:20.900 vacations

00:52:21.400 together

00:52:21.820 all this

00:52:22.240 stuff

00:52:22.500 would have

00:52:22.960 made

00:52:23.120 Bird

00:52:23.400 throw up

00:52:23.880 in his 0.85

00:52:24.120 mouth

00:52:24.400 and before

00:52:25.000 each game

00:52:25.540 in the

00:52:25.760 finals

00:52:26.080 they would

00:52:26.400 meet at

00:52:26.800 center court

00:52:27.280 and kiss

00:52:27.760 on the

00:52:28.140 cheeks

00:52:28.400 like Parisians

00:52:29.300 and this

00:52:30.220 was filmed

00:52:30.780 and mocked

00:52:31.440 by everybody

00:52:31.880 at the

00:52:32.200 time

00:52:32.540 and at

00:52:33.240 a certain

00:52:33.460 point

00:52:33.800 Pat Riley

00:52:34.580 the coach

00:52:35.060 of the

00:52:35.280 Lakers

00:52:35.540 got mad

00:52:36.280 and said

00:52:37.020 to Magic

00:52:37.520 there's going

00:52:38.140 to be a

00:52:38.460 moment

00:52:38.740 where you're

00:52:39.200 going to

00:52:39.380 have to

00:52:39.720 choose your

00:52:40.240 team

00:52:40.660 above your

00:52:41.300 buddy

00:52:41.720 and there

00:52:42.700 was a

00:52:42.960 game where

00:52:43.320 Isaiah

00:52:43.700 was coming

00:52:44.260 up the

00:52:44.840 lane

00:52:45.080 Isaiah

00:52:45.400 is very

00:52:45.780 small

00:52:46.280 but going

00:52:46.960 inside

00:52:47.440 like he

00:52:47.820 did

00:52:48.100 and Magic

00:52:49.340 just sort

00:52:49.900 of laid

00:52:50.200 him out

00:52:50.540 and that

00:52:51.540 was it

00:52:51.900 I mean that

00:52:52.300 was really

00:52:52.660 kind of the

00:52:53.140 changing of

00:52:53.580 the friendship

00:52:53.940 it wasn't

00:52:54.340 quite the

00:52:54.720 end

00:52:55.000 but the

00:52:55.740 beginning

00:52:56.020 of the

00:52:56.300 end

00:52:56.520 and it

00:52:57.380 was really

00:52:57.800 a thing

00:52:58.120 where people

00:52:58.600 chose 0.56

00:52:59.300 their

00:53:00.200 team

00:53:01.120 and winning

00:53:01.720 over their

00:53:02.360 friends

00:53:02.760 and they're

00:53:03.700 willing to

00:53:04.220 turn friends

00:53:04.980 into enemies

00:53:05.660 they took it

00:53:06.100 very very

00:53:06.700 seriously

00:53:07.260 and I know

00:53:08.220 when you

00:53:08.540 talk to

00:53:09.620 any old

00:53:10.600 timers

00:53:11.080 in any

00:53:11.680 of these

00:53:12.100 sports

00:53:12.600 about what

00:53:13.520 they dislike

00:53:14.500 most about

00:53:15.420 the modern

00:53:15.940 games

00:53:16.480 it's that

00:53:17.400 the players

00:53:17.940 on opposing

00:53:18.620 teams seem

00:53:19.400 to be

00:53:19.680 friends

00:53:20.180 that they're

00:53:21.600 sort of

00:53:21.980 chatting

00:53:22.540 on the

00:53:22.980 field

00:53:23.220 before the

00:53:23.760 game

00:53:24.060 and this

00:53:25.360 was the

00:53:25.700 era before

00:53:26.260 that when

00:53:26.820 your opponent

00:53:27.580 was your

00:53:28.300 enemy

00:53:28.640 and someone

00:53:29.400 was going

00:53:29.660 to walk

00:53:30.000 away with

00:53:30.300 everything

00:53:30.800 and someone

00:53:31.480 was going

00:53:31.740 to walk

00:53:32.080 away with

00:53:32.420 nothing

00:53:32.840 and you

00:53:33.560 felt that

00:53:34.100 all through

00:53:34.640 the playoffs

00:53:35.120 and like I

00:53:35.580 said the

00:53:35.840 Lakers had

00:53:36.280 to go

00:53:36.520 almost the

00:53:37.080 distance

00:53:37.520 and every

00:53:38.320 series was

00:53:38.860 a point

00:53:39.160 where they

00:53:39.360 had to

00:53:39.620 step up

00:53:40.140 and basically

00:53:40.780 knock someone 0.92

00:53:41.500 down 0.70

00:53:41.740 physically

00:53:42.600 and of

00:53:43.100 course the

00:53:43.500 Pistons

00:53:43.880 whole strategy

00:53:44.880 as basically

00:53:46.400 if we're not

00:53:46.860 going to beat

00:53:47.340 you we're at

00:53:48.300 least going

00:53:48.660 to beat

00:53:48.980 you up

00:53:49.440 and they

00:53:50.420 had Dennis

00:53:50.980 Rodman

00:53:51.480 they had

00:53:52.320 Rick Mahorn

00:53:53.120 they had

00:53:54.020 John Sally

00:53:54.920 they had

00:53:55.700 Bill Lamb

00:53:56.240 beer

00:53:56.700 often considered

00:53:57.600 the dirtiest

00:53:58.140 player in the

00:53:58.640 game and

00:53:59.500 they would

00:53:59.840 beat the 0.99

00:54:00.240 crap out 0.77

00:54:00.740 of teams 0.99

00:54:01.100 and one

00:54:01.500 of the

00:54:01.720 things that

00:54:02.320 Pat Riley

00:54:03.180 did that

00:54:03.660 was incredibly

00:54:04.140 cool to

00:54:05.240 psych up the

00:54:05.800 Lakers is he

00:54:06.360 made a

00:54:06.660 highlight reel

00:54:08.000 that he showed

00:54:08.560 his team

00:54:09.160 before one

00:54:10.360 of the

00:54:10.520 last games

00:54:11.060 of the

00:54:11.300 season

00:54:11.620 of the

00:54:12.980 Pistons

00:54:13.720 doing all 0.99

00:54:14.280 this dirty

00:54:14.840 stuff to

00:54:15.420 the Lakers

00:54:15.760 stuff that

00:54:16.400 was not

00:54:16.860 penalized 0.81

00:54:17.340 that you

00:54:17.560 wouldn't

00:54:17.820 notice away

00:54:18.440 from the

00:54:18.740 play like

00:54:19.660 Lambier

00:54:20.140 elbowing

00:54:21.060 somebody in

00:54:21.540 the kidney

00:54:22.040 or hitting 0.87

00:54:23.160 somebody in

00:54:23.680 the back

00:54:24.020 of the

00:54:24.280 head

00:54:24.640 you know

00:54:25.160 away from

00:54:25.600 the play

00:54:25.860 running up

00:54:26.340 court

00:54:26.640 and that

00:54:27.460 was just

00:54:28.060 what you

00:54:28.720 had to

00:54:29.040 survive

00:54:29.580 as a

00:54:30.780 Laker

00:54:31.080 and that's

00:54:32.120 what really

00:54:32.900 made this

00:54:33.600 you know

00:54:34.120 about more

00:54:34.640 than just a

00:54:35.260 skill contest

00:54:36.100 but a

00:54:36.680 physical

00:54:37.100 two guys

00:54:38.240 fighting in

00:54:39.220 center court

00:54:39.760 in front of

00:54:40.140 the whole

00:54:40.380 world to

00:54:41.140 decide who's

00:54:41.660 the champion

00:54:42.160 so what's

00:54:44.100 your big

00:54:44.360 takeaway from

00:54:45.300 this 87

00:54:46.660 88 season

00:54:47.860 like how

00:54:48.300 can watching

00:54:49.160 or reading

00:54:50.020 about this

00:54:50.580 season make

00:54:51.640 you a better

00:54:52.040 man

00:54:52.400 well for me

00:54:53.920 there's a

00:54:54.480 couple there's 0.52

00:54:54.960 several lessons

00:54:55.940 you know you

00:54:56.560 can take from

00:54:56.980 each team

00:54:57.420 from the

00:54:57.780 Bulls what I

00:54:58.280 take away

00:54:58.600 from them

00:54:58.980 is basically

00:55:00.320 don't let

00:55:00.800 other people

00:55:01.240 get in your

00:55:01.680 head and

00:55:02.100 don't let 0.86

00:55:02.420 them stop

00:55:02.780 playing your

00:55:03.220 game

00:55:03.520 one of the

00:55:04.280 big problems

00:55:04.780 the Bulls

00:55:05.080 had in

00:55:05.380 those years

00:55:05.740 which

00:55:05.960 Phil Jackson

00:55:06.500 helped them

00:55:06.900 with is

00:55:07.560 they would

00:55:07.820 go in as

00:55:08.340 this hot

00:55:08.740 team and

00:55:09.100 they'd play

00:55:09.380 the Pistons

00:55:09.880 and the

00:55:10.480 Pistons would

00:55:11.080 just needle

00:55:11.860 them taunt 0.99

00:55:12.480 them foul

00:55:13.040 them until

00:55:13.860 they blew

00:55:14.300 their stack

00:55:14.920 went crazy

00:55:15.820 played the

00:55:16.580 Pistons game

00:55:17.260 which they

00:55:17.600 could not

00:55:18.040 win and

00:55:19.000 the season

00:55:19.380 was over

00:55:19.840 and that

00:55:20.400 happened year

00:55:20.960 after year

00:55:21.580 until Phil

00:55:22.620 Jackson finally

00:55:23.460 got them to

00:55:23.980 become a little

00:55:24.500 more zen

00:55:25.140 that's what

00:55:25.600 the zen was

00:55:26.100 about don't

00:55:27.280 let the other 0.54

00:55:28.220 team get in

00:55:29.260 your head and

00:55:30.180 don't play

00:55:30.640 their game

00:55:31.180 play your

00:55:32.060 game and

00:55:33.460 with the

00:55:34.380 Pistons what

00:55:35.200 I got was

00:55:35.820 sort of

00:55:36.260 just because

00:55:37.240 you're the

00:55:37.560 best team

00:55:38.260 because I

00:55:39.060 think the

00:55:39.420 Pistons were

00:55:40.140 the best team

00:55:40.960 in this season

00:55:42.160 and they won

00:55:43.240 the next two

00:55:43.860 titles in 89

00:55:45.020 and 90

00:55:45.740 just because

00:55:46.680 you're the

00:55:47.000 best team

00:55:47.740 doesn't mean

00:55:48.620 you're gonna

00:55:48.960 win and the

00:55:50.420 Pistons players

00:55:51.260 and fans still

00:55:52.100 gripe about a

00:55:53.100 phantom foul at

00:55:54.060 the end of

00:55:54.620 game six that

00:55:56.080 really gave the

00:55:56.780 Lakers life and

00:55:57.660 let them win the

00:55:58.380 thing so I

00:55:59.660 take that and

00:56:00.580 for the Lakers

00:56:01.420 it's sort of

00:56:02.940 win while you

00:56:03.960 still can

00:56:04.700 because the

00:56:05.540 sun was

00:56:05.940 setting on

00:56:06.440 them and

00:56:07.080 ultimately on

00:56:07.700 Magic's career

00:56:08.480 for other

00:56:09.000 reasons and

00:56:10.140 for the Celtics

00:56:11.000 sadly it's like

00:56:12.180 when it's over

00:56:12.880 it's over they

00:56:13.800 were still a

00:56:14.280 great team but

00:56:14.840 they were old

00:56:15.460 and they were

00:56:15.980 beat up and

00:56:17.220 ultimately the

00:56:17.780 big lesson I

00:56:18.440 know I'm giving

00:56:18.740 too many is

00:56:19.460 that you can

00:56:20.560 beat a better

00:56:21.260 team with

00:56:22.700 players that

00:56:23.260 aren't as

00:56:23.700 good if you

00:56:24.980 have a plan

00:56:25.560 I love that

00:56:26.660 well Rich this

00:56:27.480 has been a

00:56:27.740 great conversation

00:56:28.400 where can people

00:56:28.920 go to learn more

00:56:29.500 about the book

00:56:29.980 and your work

00:56:30.480 well it's on

00:56:32.040 the Random House

00:56:32.640 website I have

00:56:33.600 an author page

00:56:34.740 which is

00:56:35.620 authorrichcohen.com

00:56:36.980 it's on there

00:56:37.540 and a bunch of

00:56:38.000 my other stories

00:56:38.740 and books and

00:56:40.140 I'm on Twitter

00:56:41.240 richcohen2003

00:56:44.000 that's the year I

00:56:45.420 peaked so that's

00:56:46.620 what I always pick

00:56:47.240 as my handle

00:56:47.860 fantastic well

00:56:49.440 Rich Cohen thanks

00:56:50.040 for your time it's

00:56:50.400 been a pleasure

00:56:50.820 thanks so much

00:56:52.580 loved it

00:56:53.220 my guest today

00:56:54.360 was Rich Cohen

00:56:54.960 he's the author

00:56:55.600 of the book

00:56:56.040 When the Game

00:56:56.640 Was War

00:56:57.120 it's available

00:56:57.620 on amazon.com

00:56:58.500 and bookstores

00:56:58.900 everywhere you can

00:56:59.720 find more information

00:57:00.280 about his work

00:57:00.740 at his website

00:57:01.400 authorrichcohen.com

00:57:02.960 also check out

00:57:03.940 our show notes

00:57:04.320 at aom.is

00:57:05.340 slash nba

00:57:06.180 where you can find

00:57:06.720 links to resources

00:57:07.500 where you can delve

00:57:07.860 deeper into this topic

00:57:08.860 well that wraps up

00:57:17.340 another edition

00:57:18.060 of the AOM podcast

00:57:18.980 make sure to check

00:57:19.820 out our website

00:57:20.300 at artofmanliness.com

00:57:21.360 where you can find

00:57:21.660 our podcast archives

00:57:22.740 as well as

00:57:23.520 thousands of articles

00:57:24.260 that we've written

00:57:24.720 over the years

00:57:25.060 about pretty much

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00:57:39.020 until next time

00:57:39.740 this is Brett McKay

00:57:40.440 reminding you to

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The Art of Manliness - September 11, 2023

When the Game Was War — Lessons From the Greatest NBA Season of All Time

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