The Art of Manliness - Where You Should Live When You Could Live Anywhere

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:10.920 When we think about people who can live anywhere, we tend to think about corporate employed

00:00:14.380 remote workers and online entrepreneurs.

00:00:16.560 But many other kinds of professionals, from teachers to doctors, could hypothetically

00:00:19.880 find a job anywhere, and thus live anywhere they'd like.

00:00:22.980 If you're what my guest Melody Warnett calls an anywhere-ist, and have seriously or casually

00:00:26.760 considered moving somewhere else, today we'll talk through the factors to consider and

00:00:29.980 making that decision.

00:00:31.340 Melody is the author of If You Could Live Anywhere, The Surprising Importance of Place in a Work

00:00:35.140 From Anywhere World.

00:00:36.160 And in today's conversation, we discuss the factors you should include in what she calls

00:00:39.920 a location strategy, from the cost of living in a place, to whether it allows you to build

00:00:43.840 the kinds of relationships you're looking for.

00:00:45.640 We also talk about how the place you live can be part of your purpose in life, and the

00:00:48.820 elements that contribute to an overall quality of life.

00:00:50.940 After the show's over, check out our show notes at aom.is slash anywhere.

00:00:59.980 All right, Melody Warnick, welcome back to the show.

00:01:11.160 Thanks for having me, Brett.

00:01:12.600 So we had you on a couple years ago to talk about your book, This Is Where You Belong,

00:01:16.200 and it's where you highlight this research about this idea of place attachment, where

00:01:21.040 it's like why we feel like we belong to a place, why we like a place where we live.

00:01:24.660 And you use that research to provide insights about how people can learn to love the place

00:01:29.880 they live.

00:01:30.700 You got a new book out, similar theme of place attachment, but it's called If You Could Live

00:01:35.320 Anywhere, and it's all about picking a place you love, so you'll move there.

00:01:41.860 What made you explore this idea of how to pick an optimal place to live?

00:01:46.000 So I'm kind of obsessed with the idea of place in general, but even before the pandemic,

00:01:51.940 we kind of forget this, but lots of people were starting to shift to remote work.

00:01:56.960 We were seeing towns offering $10,000 bonuses to people who were remote workers who would

00:02:03.280 move there.

00:02:04.540 And so I started just noticing also that in my own hometown of Blacksburg, Virginia, people

00:02:10.600 were arriving who weren't coming there for any particular job.

00:02:15.520 It was just they could live anywhere, and they had done some research, and this was the

00:02:21.300 place that they chose.

00:02:22.320 So I became really interested in how people were making those choices.

00:02:28.400 And then on the flip side, I was starting to speak with economic developers and chambers

00:02:34.000 of commerce, doing some speaking related to this is where you belong.

00:02:38.760 And that made me aware of this whole underworld of community economic development agencies who

00:02:46.420 are desperately trying to attract talent and retain them.

00:02:50.780 And so I just became curious about that kind of connection between communities who want

00:02:56.560 people and people who are looking for the right community to live.

00:03:00.440 Yeah, I hope we can talk about that because my own town, Tulsa, is sort of on the vanguard

00:03:04.980 of that, of paying people to come to move here.

00:03:07.440 But you make this case that a lot of jobs today are what you call anywarist careers.

00:03:12.240 What are your typical anywarist careers?

00:03:15.320 And then we'll talk about some of the surprising ones you wouldn't think would be anywarist 0.94

00:03:19.020 careers.

00:03:20.360 So I think when people think anywarist, and that's just kind of the term I use for anyone

00:03:25.160 who's a location-independent worker in some way, we automatically think of remote workers.

00:03:31.540 And that can be these days, you know, almost anything, writers and marketers and coders and

00:03:39.220 podcasters and accountants and life coaches.

00:03:43.340 A lot of jobs that didn't used to be remote have gone remote.

00:03:47.260 Something like 30% of Americans have the option of working remotely five days a week.

00:03:54.760 And that's like 117 million Americans.

00:03:58.120 So this is not an insignificant number of people, but anywarists are not just remote workers.

00:04:05.820 I think of them also as just anyone who has greater than average autonomy when it comes

00:04:11.480 to choosing the place they live.

00:04:13.340 So that could be a gig worker or a freelancer or an entrepreneur or a retiree.

00:04:19.400 You know, maybe not your Broadway actors who, you know, are still tied to a specific place

00:04:25.920 or your dolphin trainers, you know, who kind of have limited options where they're going

00:04:31.620 to live.

00:04:32.740 But the other part of this is that even if you're not a remote worker, a lot of people

00:04:37.380 are kind of realizing, hey, I have one of those jobs that really can be done almost anywhere.

00:04:43.540 They're teachers, they're doctors, they're lawyers, they're builders, they're designers.

00:04:49.400 So the jobs aren't necessarily portable, but a lot of people have kind of that anywhere-ist

00:04:55.600 moment where they're making that choice about where to start the career or where to go next.

00:05:01.840 And the answer might not be just any place, but you probably have more choice than you think,

00:05:08.340 even if you're not completely location independent.

00:05:11.140 Right, it's like a lot of jobs, they're in demand everywhere.

00:05:14.820 So I think you mentioned one person, she was a like a reading specialist for elementary school

00:05:19.560 teacher or kids.

00:05:21.360 And so like, that's like an in-demand job.

00:05:22.960 And so she could just go, she could live anywhere.

00:05:25.000 Like she could literally, but it's tied to a specific place, but she could be any place.

00:05:29.980 Right, exactly.

00:05:31.080 And that's exactly what she did.

00:05:32.780 She and her husband were living in Santa Cruz and realized that their careers were,

00:05:38.100 you know, they weren't exactly remote, but they could be done in a lot of different places.

00:05:43.720 And so they did this huge road trip all over the country and explored lots of different

00:05:49.660 places, eventually settled in Graham, North Carolina, a small town in North Carolina, not

00:05:56.400 far from Greensboro.

00:05:58.560 And for the first time in their lives, they could afford to buy a house.

00:06:03.280 And that meant that Janae could start a business baking sourdough bread. 0.63

00:06:08.500 And so really that shift in location changed a lot of things about their lives.

00:06:15.020 Well, so what this makes us interesting, this is a different dynamic from maybe what our

00:06:19.760 parents are used to.

00:06:20.740 Your parents would just, they'd go to the, they'd move someplace because the job was there,

00:06:24.460 right?

00:06:24.680 Like my dad moved to Oklahoma City.

00:06:26.700 Yeah.

00:06:27.000 So you had no choice.

00:06:27.820 You had to make, you had to learn to love the place you live, right?

00:06:30.920 This is where you belong.

00:06:31.900 Like the first book would be for that type of person.

00:06:34.200 Yeah, exactly.

00:06:35.080 And I am totally on board with that idea.

00:06:38.220 And that's kind of why I wrote the first book.

00:06:40.200 My husband got a job at Virginia Tech, you know, academics are one of those people that

00:06:45.640 are kind of semi-anywhereist where they have moments of being able to choose, but aren't

00:06:50.300 entirely remote ever.

00:06:52.840 And, you know, there's this feeling of you only have so many choices, you're going to

00:06:56.500 go where the job takes you.

00:06:58.600 But I think for a lot of people, just our relationship, our expectation from our place

00:07:04.580 has changed.

00:07:05.480 I think exactly what you said.

00:07:06.860 It used to be that people just, they got the job and they went wherever the job was

00:07:11.800 and that was it.

00:07:13.120 And now there's some research that people who are graduating college choose the city where

00:07:18.580 they want to land first and then they get the job.

00:07:21.920 So, you know, being in the right place is the most important thing in that equation.

00:07:26.600 And I think it's important for most of us, maybe even more than we think.

00:07:31.220 Well, this is a challenge though, because I think a lot of people who could work from anywhere,

00:07:34.880 they don't take advantage of that because like choosing where to live, it's just like

00:07:38.600 another thing to think about.

00:07:39.500 And there's so many factors and it can overwhelm people.

00:07:42.240 For example, my wife and I, we could work from anywhere, but we've been in Tulsa, Oklahoma

00:07:46.660 for 16 years.

00:07:48.020 We don't plan on moving anytime soon, probably ever.

00:07:51.900 So why is it that, you know, are some anywhereist game for moving?

00:07:55.320 Because I'm sure there are other people, you highlight people in the book, they're going

00:07:58.020 to try different places, but others like us aren't.

00:08:01.140 I actually think that you're maybe the best case scenario.

00:08:05.600 You know, I think when people all of a sudden realize that they have that freedom to move

00:08:12.160 anywhere, that they are location independent, it's sort of this heady moment.

00:08:16.500 And people feel like, oh, we're wasting that if we don't move.

00:08:21.640 But the reality is, you know, not everyone needs to move and you shouldn't feel like you

00:08:26.800 have to.

00:08:27.280 So I divide anywhereist into kind of three broad groups.

00:08:32.100 There are wanderers who are just people who really crave adventure.

00:08:35.720 These are maybe more like digital nomads, people who are trying out lots of different

00:08:41.200 places and aren't in the mindset of really trying to settle any particular place.

00:08:47.360 And then there are seekers who are a lot of the people I write about in the book who

00:08:51.560 have that freedom to be location independent, and they want to make the most of it.

00:08:57.500 They want to find the right place for them.

00:09:00.000 And so they're sort of in that process of actively looking.

00:09:03.400 But the third category is what I call settlers.

00:09:06.540 And those are people who maybe have that freedom to move, but don't need it because they're

00:09:13.860 happy where they are.

00:09:15.040 And, you know, in my mind, you know, I wrote a lot in This Is Where You Belong about the

00:09:20.100 value of putting down roots in a place.

00:09:22.320 And I still think that that's true.

00:09:25.260 If you're in a place that you love, that's serving you and your family, you've probably

00:09:30.400 built up a lot of social capital there.

00:09:32.820 There's no reason to just think, well, geez, my boss just came and told me that I can work

00:09:37.700 100% remote.

00:09:38.780 So, so I need to find, you know, I need to find my new city, you find your new city, if

00:09:44.500 you are drawn to that, if that's going to be something beneficial for you right now, but 0.74

00:09:51.940 you certainly don't need to feel like you're some sort of, you know, remote worker loser

00:09:56.920 if you decide not to do that.

00:09:59.260 So how do you figure out what kind of anywhere you are?

00:10:01.060 Is it just sort of feeling like, well, yeah, if I just want to stay here, I'm a, I'm a

00:10:04.100 settler.

00:10:04.440 Yeah, I tend to think it is just kind of your mindset around moving and that can change

00:10:12.760 throughout your time and a place, you know, for a lot of people, it's like, we really loved

00:10:17.120 this city when we were young and single, and now we're starting to have kids and it's just

00:10:22.040 not working for us quite as well as it used to.

00:10:26.320 So we definitely go through, you know, we're not necessarily just one or the other permanently.

00:10:31.080 We can move across these categories.

00:10:34.740 Well, if you are in a place where you can move anywhere and you think you might want

00:10:37.940 to move, you recommend developing what you call a location strategy.

00:10:42.440 And that involves thinking about going deep into, you know, what's worked for you in the

00:10:46.540 past, the kinds of places you're drawn to, and what elements of your life are the most

00:10:52.520 important to you that you're looking for in a community.

00:10:55.040 For example, might be if you have kids, really good schools are important, or you want, you

00:10:59.640 know, easy access to nature.

00:11:01.200 And then you also recommend, you know, thinking about those deal breakers.

00:11:04.300 You know, maybe you can't deal with a place where it's a hundred degrees plus in the summer,

00:11:09.040 or, you know, you can't deal with like just a long, bleak winter.

00:11:13.480 It's going to just grind you down.

00:11:14.880 So those kind of factors.

00:11:16.280 And then you think about in the book, you focus on some big overarching factors you might

00:11:20.880 want to consider when you're developing your location strategy.

00:11:24.760 So let's talk about some of those.

00:11:25.940 The first one you talk about in the book is recognition.

00:11:29.340 What do you mean by a community giving you recognition?

00:11:33.440 So it's kind of going back to that idea we were talking about where there is this whole

00:11:38.660 effort at talent attraction and retention.

00:11:41.060 So there are communities out there that want you.

00:11:45.540 And it's sort of like an echo of what we might look for in our workplace, right?

00:11:49.640 For people to be truly satisfied at work, they need to feel recognized and rewarded and

00:11:55.380 appreciate it for what they're doing.

00:11:57.560 I think towns kind of, especially when we're location independent or remote workers, towns

00:12:04.200 become our office.

00:12:06.040 They're providing some of those things that we've always saw in our workplaces and towns

00:12:12.300 can give us some of those.

00:12:13.840 So I started thinking about, you know, what are the ways that towns sort of recognize us?

00:12:18.320 And I think it starts with a community that is willing to welcome you.

00:12:23.340 You mentioned Tulsa Remote, which I think is the original program started in 2018 that

00:12:31.300 started offering $10,000 to remote workers who were willing to relocate to Tulsa.

00:12:37.500 And, you know, it was like BYOJ, bring your own job.

00:12:40.320 And to date, around 3,000 people have done that and have brought, you know, all these

00:12:47.220 economic benefits to Tulsa.

00:12:49.840 And it's gone so well that dozens and dozens of cities across the country have started similar

00:12:55.540 programs.

00:12:56.280 So you have like Bentonville, Arkansas, that is offering $10,000 and a bike to ride on the

00:13:02.600 mountain bike trails around Bentonville.

00:13:04.600 Other cities are offering free land to build a house on or a discount if you buy a home

00:13:12.140 here or we'll help you pay off your student loans.

00:13:15.840 There's a website called Make My Move that catalogs these offers.

00:13:20.840 So a town doesn't have to pay you to move there per se to be a welcoming place.

00:13:27.900 I talk about Iowa City and Cedar Rapids, Iowa that created a program.

00:13:32.920 It was called the Wingman Program.

00:13:34.620 And if you were someone who was moving to the area, you would get matched with sort of

00:13:39.920 a community mentor who would take you out to lunch.

00:13:44.160 They would introduce you to a couple people.

00:13:46.800 They would maybe take you to a community event.

00:13:49.500 So I really like to look at what our community is doing to show that they're welcoming places,

00:13:56.680 that they're open to you, and that this is a place where you can settle in and build a life.

00:14:04.100 And so that's kind of what I think about when I think about recognition in a community.

00:14:09.400 So you also have another factor to think about in your location strategy, and that's

00:14:13.200 the cost of living, basically, right?

00:14:15.440 How can living in a place make you feel wealthier?

00:14:18.420 How can where you live make you richer?

00:14:20.880 So that is one of the, probably the number one motivator behind mobility among location

00:14:29.180 independent people is this idea that you can basically give yourself a raise by moving

00:14:35.760 to a city with a lower cost of living.

00:14:38.520 So, you know, for instance, if you're in San Francisco, and your job is remote, and your

00:14:44.380 boss says, yeah, feel free to move anywhere, and you'll make the same salary.

00:14:48.020 If you move to, say, San Antonio, Texas, it's like getting a 200% raise, because the cost

00:14:54.880 of living in San Antonio is about 43% of what it is in San Francisco.

00:15:00.400 So, you know, some companies do adjust salaries depending on where you live, but there are

00:15:05.600 definitely places where your money will go farther, and a good cost of living calculator

00:15:10.660 online will tell you that.

00:15:12.720 I think for most of us, you know, we're looking at home prices, which have skyrocketed in the

00:15:18.480 past couple of years.

00:15:20.360 And so the thought of moving to a community where, hey, I can afford to buy a home or I

00:15:25.700 can save, you know, several hundred thousand dollars if I live in, you know, this small

00:15:31.020 town versus the major big city.

00:15:34.440 That's a huge factor in quality of life, right?

00:15:37.780 If you have all of a sudden a lot more spare cash.

00:15:42.160 And it isn't just home prices either.

00:15:44.780 You know, we think about things like transportation costs or food costs, healthcare, entertainment,

00:15:51.760 fuel, insurance.

00:15:53.360 We call this geographic arbitrage.

00:15:55.780 And that's a term for this way of kind of using your location to gain a monetary advantage.

00:16:05.140 For a lot of people, that's simply something like moving to a state that has no state income

00:16:11.920 tax or moving to a state that has lower property taxes than you're used to.

00:16:18.240 Some people even, you know, move to other countries.

00:16:20.900 You know, if you are willing to go be an expat in Costa Rica or Portugal, you can have a really

00:16:27.760 good quality of life for less money.

00:16:30.260 And I think that is, you know, a huge factor for a lot of anywhere.

00:16:34.320 Yeah, you saw this in the pandemic.

00:16:35.840 A lot of people move from really expensive places like from California, for example.

00:16:40.080 That's the one you hear about in the news all the time to cheaper places because they're

00:16:42.980 trying to take advantage of their jobs now remote because they had to go remote and they're

00:16:48.480 going to go someplace cheaper.

00:16:49.300 Yeah, and unfortunately, the side effect of that is that those Californians are driving 1.00

00:16:54.900 up prices in places like Boise and Salt Lake.

00:16:58.620 So it's definitely a double-edged sword.

00:17:01.080 Yeah, I'm always, I love, you know, I do the Zillow thing.

00:17:03.780 We're always comparing like, oh, you have a friend moving to California from Tulsa and

00:17:08.600 you see what, you know, how much does a house go for in California?

00:17:12.000 It's shocking.

00:17:12.780 It's always shocking to me because it's like this like tiny home that would be, you know,

00:17:19.360 $150,000 in Tulsa.

00:17:21.400 It's like $700,000, $800,000, something like a million dollars.

00:17:25.240 And like, if you move from California to Tulsa, you would be, you could buy a mansion for like

00:17:29.780 what an average home would go for in California.

00:17:31.820 Well, totally.

00:17:32.980 And people do, you know, like I remember we lived in Ames, Iowa for six years.

00:17:38.840 My husband was in grad school there and we had friends who, or they became our friends

00:17:43.340 who moved from California to this, you know, little college town in Iowa.

00:17:48.840 And they had the nicest house of anyone that we knew.

00:17:53.320 And I don't think it was that they were just rich.

00:17:55.600 It was just that they had owned a home in California and they sold it and they moved

00:18:00.360 to Iowa and they were like, you know, we're millionaires now, apparently, you know, like

00:18:05.940 there's this other thing that happens where we kind of create these anchor points for pricing

00:18:11.700 based on where we live.

00:18:13.420 And that's why when you're moving from one part of the country to another, it can be shocking,

00:18:18.920 you know, the differences in prices, sometimes in good ways and sometimes in bad ways, you

00:18:25.780 know, like a really hard move if they moved back from Iowa to California, just because

00:18:32.780 the pricing is so different.

00:18:35.620 All right.

00:18:35.700 So if you're anywhere, you've got some ways to make some money here.

00:18:38.960 So first you got cities that are probably going to pay you money to move there.

00:18:43.100 Tulsa will pay you $10,000 to move here if you're a remote worker.

00:18:45.820 And if you're moving from California to Tulsa, you're going to save a bunch of money on cost

00:18:50.680 of living.

00:18:51.100 So this is, it could be, you could, it could be substantial.

00:18:54.780 Yeah, absolutely.

00:18:56.240 And this is, you know, as we've looked at remote workers and location independent workers

00:19:02.900 making these choices, cost of living and affordability is number one for everyone.

00:19:09.560 And I think that's probably even more true now after a year of inflation and crazy real

00:19:16.060 estate prices.

00:19:17.260 So it really is a huge factor when people think about where to live next.

00:19:21.740 Are there any calculators that you recommend checking out online off the top of your head

00:19:25.160 that are pretty solid?

00:19:27.440 CNN, CNN.com has a good cost of living calculator.

00:19:32.040 I think the New York Times has one.

00:19:33.580 There's just a ton out there and, you know, don't put all your belief in a single cost of

00:19:40.580 living calculator because those numbers do change.

00:19:43.860 But if you're making this decision for yourself and thinking of moving to a place based on

00:19:49.280 affordability, definitely take the step to really research for yourself.

00:19:54.200 You know, how much am I going to pay for car insurance here?

00:19:58.060 Or will I have to fill a boiler with oil at the beginning of winter?

00:20:03.760 You know, expenses really can shift from one area of the country to another.

00:20:09.160 You know, like you think of New Yorkers, one of the most expensive cities in the world,

00:20:12.960 but a lot of them don't have a car.

00:20:14.800 And so there are different things that can kind of balance out some of the expenses in

00:20:21.360 different parts of the country.

00:20:23.260 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:20:24.940 And now back to the show.

00:20:28.920 All right.

00:20:29.100 So another value to consider in your location strategy as an Anywhereist is connection.

00:20:34.380 What do you mean by connection?

00:20:36.460 So connection, I just mean relationships with other humans where you live.

00:20:42.040 And that I think is probably the number one most important thing that people can have if

00:20:49.320 they want to be happy in a place, if they really want to be a settler and, you know,

00:20:55.480 find the right place and settle there.

00:20:57.300 You have to have friends where you live.

00:21:00.860 Like people, towns have personalities, which can be hard to pick up on if you're just visiting.

00:21:08.320 But, you know, you think about who are the kinds of people you like to hang out with typically,

00:21:13.980 and where do you imagine meeting them?

00:21:16.640 I've done some location coaching recently, you know, helping people make these decisions

00:21:22.040 about where to live.

00:21:23.720 And one woman I talked to, I think, took a really great approach.

00:21:27.840 She was considering Denver versus Bozeman, Montana.

00:21:32.780 And so she would do visits to these cities, and she would kind of strike up conversations

00:21:39.020 in the line at the coffee shop.

00:21:41.580 For her, a big thing is hiking and yoga.

00:21:45.180 So she would go to the yoga class, you know, find a local yoga class.

00:21:50.440 And then afterwards, she would kind of like try and talk to a couple people and invite

00:21:54.920 them to go hiking with her.

00:21:57.040 And, you know, if that was a success, that was a pretty good sign that she could find her

00:22:04.340 people in this community.

00:22:06.540 So I think, you know, for a lot of us making these Anywhere's moves, we're not necessarily

00:22:12.960 moving to a place where we already have a lot of friends, although some of us are, that's

00:22:16.820 certainly something important to consider.

00:22:19.940 But, you know, when you're looking at a community, try and figure out where do you imagine meeting

00:22:25.240 people?

00:22:25.860 What are your entry points going to be to this community?

00:22:30.200 I think also blind friend dates are great.

00:22:33.240 You know, the internet can be an awesome place for friends.

00:22:38.160 It doesn't replace in-person friends in a new community, but I think it can facilitate

00:22:44.120 that.

00:22:44.760 So you throw out online, you know, on Facebook or Instagram or whatever, hey, I'm thinking

00:22:50.740 of moving to Rochester.

00:22:52.480 Who do you know in Rochester?

00:22:54.040 And you start having, you know, coffee dates with people.

00:22:58.220 And that can kind of give you a sense of, will I be able to make friends here?

00:23:02.460 Will I find my people?

00:23:04.820 Yeah.

00:23:05.000 And so that's an important thing because you might move someplace and let's say you have

00:23:08.100 an interest.

00:23:09.080 I don't know.

00:23:09.420 I can't, I can't think of a hobby off the top of my, like fly fishing.

00:23:12.480 I don't know.

00:23:12.920 I'm just fly fishing.

00:23:13.780 I did some fly fishing this weekend, but you move to a place and you want someone to fly

00:23:17.420 fish with, but no one does that there.

00:23:19.640 Well, I mean, you probably live with it, but it'd probably be better to move.

00:23:23.340 If that's important to you, you might want to move someplace where there's an active,

00:23:26.840 vibrant fly fishing community.

00:23:29.160 Yeah, absolutely.

00:23:30.180 And just kind of identifying that beforehand, like, oh, I really love to play rugby.

00:23:36.060 Is there a group in this town or nearby that plays rugby?

00:23:41.460 You know, like those have been my friends in the past and they don't necessarily have to

00:23:46.120 be your friends in the future, but if that's something that's important to you, identify

00:23:51.520 if there's a community for that in this new place that you're thinking about and sort of

00:23:57.900 find out how can I tap into that when I get there?

00:24:01.600 You know, no matter where you go, it's important to remember that moving sucks and you're very

00:24:08.100 likely going to have a period of time where you feel a little lonely and, you know, it's

00:24:14.840 a process to make friends in a new community.

00:24:17.740 But if you can give yourself that head start of, you know, I'm going to go to this yoga

00:24:22.660 class and I'm going to take my dog to this dog park.

00:24:27.480 If you know that there's a few concrete things that you can do to try and make friends, I

00:24:32.280 think it makes you feel a little better about it.

00:24:35.380 Well, and speaking of communities having their own personality, you know, some communities

00:24:38.800 might be like Mayberry, right?

00:24:40.660 And that's, and you think, oh, this is great.

00:24:42.220 But for some people that might actually be bad because like, ah, to them, it's like

00:24:45.340 these bunch of busy bodies up in my business.

00:24:47.260 I just want to be left alone.

00:24:48.860 Like that's important to, like, it might be, I'm going to move to this rural town and

00:24:52.260 like the sense of community is good, but it might not fit your personalities.

00:24:56.440 You're more of a loner type.

00:24:59.060 Right.

00:24:59.280 Yeah.

00:24:59.760 And, you know, you just might not be the small town person, you know, like towns sort of

00:25:06.420 do a certain activities.

00:25:09.180 And one of the things I talk about in This Is Where You Belong, which is really about,

00:25:14.880 you know, hey, you landed in this town, you hate it, here's what you do now, was learning

00:25:21.020 to embrace whatever your town is good at.

00:25:23.320 So, you know, the example for me is I moved to a college town, college football is really

00:25:28.080 big hair.

00:25:29.040 So even though I don't care at all about football, I want to be into what my town is into.

00:25:36.420 And so I have made an effort along those lines to sort of embrace football to a point.

00:25:44.580 But if you can identify that beforehand, like this is what I love to do with my time.

00:25:52.180 These are the things that interest me.

00:25:53.740 You can kind of check out whether that's something that's happening in your community, whether

00:25:58.580 you think it's a fit.

00:25:59.440 I talk in the book about a woman who was on a road trip with her husband and they fell

00:26:05.840 in love with this small Midwestern town that had really adorable homes that were affordable

00:26:12.440 and just kind of on a whim, they decided to move there.

00:26:15.300 They bought a house.

00:26:16.780 People were indeed friendly, but they just realized fairly quickly that they just didn't fit in.

00:26:24.600 It didn't feel like them.

00:26:27.440 And so she became very focused about figuring out where are we going next, did a ton of research.

00:26:34.460 You know, for her, it was important to be in a community that had yarn shops and movie

00:26:39.300 theaters.

00:26:40.080 And, you know, her, she identified her dream place was Eugene, Oregon.

00:26:44.480 So a far cry from a small town in the Midwest, but sometimes we have to have the experience

00:26:52.520 that wasn't a fit to really identify what the fit would be.

00:26:58.240 What related to this idea of connection is family or, you know, proximity to family.

00:27:02.060 When you talk to people who are considering moving, is living by family a big factor?

00:27:08.180 It is for some people and it's not for other people.

00:27:11.300 It's one of those things where for some people, that is the thing that they're trying to get

00:27:16.940 closer to parents or siblings or, you know, maybe adult children.

00:27:22.100 And for other people, it's more like, how far away can I get from these family members?

00:27:29.040 We definitely saw that as a driver of moves during COVID.

00:27:32.980 You know, I think that was an aha moment for a lot of people.

00:27:36.780 I live on the other side of the country from my family and all of a sudden there's this,

00:27:42.940 you know, pandemic that's going to keep me from having any contact with them for a long

00:27:48.920 time.

00:27:50.120 And studies have shown that almost half of Americans during COVID had some sort of reassessment

00:27:58.100 moment of where they were living.

00:28:00.660 And I have to imagine that family factored big into some of those decisions, you know,

00:28:06.880 like having support as you raise kids or being near aging parents.

00:28:12.460 So I think there's also research that shows if you live within an hour of several family

00:28:20.040 members, you're more likely to stay.

00:28:22.100 So I think family should be a big consideration, at least a consideration in the sense of you

00:28:29.640 need to decide really intentionally whether this is important to you to be near family.

00:28:36.460 And, you know, it's okay to decide that it isn't, but it's something that everyone probably

00:28:42.340 needs to weigh.

00:28:43.700 My family, in our mobile years, never really prioritized living near parents and siblings.

00:28:52.920 We ended up in Virginia.

00:28:55.340 Most of our family is in the West, Arizona and Idaho and Utah.

00:29:00.580 And I have to say that there's a little regret there, honestly.

00:29:05.480 You know, my kids are teenagers and beyond.

00:29:08.700 And every so often they kind of complain about, they didn't really know their grandparents really

00:29:13.380 well, or they didn't really know their cousins.

00:29:15.960 And, you know, we're always making trade-offs like that when we decide where to live.

00:29:21.200 So, you know, that's a question to ask yourself.

00:29:24.140 What are you going to regret most when you make a choice about where to live?

00:29:29.160 Yeah, it's a tough one.

00:29:29.960 Because in my experience talking to people about this issue, it's like the grass is always

00:29:34.740 greener.

00:29:35.560 It's like people who live away from their families, like, oh, I wish I...

00:29:38.700 I wish I lived near my family.

00:29:40.380 It'd be so great.

00:29:41.500 You know, mom and dad could help out.

00:29:43.160 And my, you know, the kids can know their cousins.

00:29:45.340 And then the people who live by their family, like, oh my gosh, I need to get away from

00:29:48.900 my family.

00:29:49.380 There's like so much drama and it's just crazy.

00:29:51.560 I'm just tired of it.

00:29:52.500 I need some space.

00:29:53.920 It's hard to figure out.

00:29:54.920 I think you don't know until you actually do it.

00:29:57.640 Yeah, it definitely is super complicated and it makes life complex.

00:30:01.700 We actually had friends here in Virginia who just a couple months ago picked up and moved

00:30:07.680 back near family, didn't have a job, just decided this is the thing that really matters to us.

00:30:15.640 And so far, based on what I've seen on her, you know, Facebook account, they're super happy

00:30:21.580 with that decision.

00:30:22.800 You know, they're doing dinners with parents and siblings and cousins are playing with each

00:30:28.020 other.

00:30:28.400 So, you know, maybe that's like the idealized honeymoon phase of living near family.

00:30:33.740 You have a couple months where you're just like, this is amazing.

00:30:37.760 And then all of a sudden there's, yeah, the drama and the angst of it.

00:30:42.220 So it's not without its problems for sure.

00:30:46.400 Family is complicated.

00:30:48.380 So another factor is this idea, a community can help you feel a sense of purpose.

00:30:54.280 How can that look in your life?

00:30:56.460 So that, again, kind of goes back to this idea that, you know, our town can sort of provide

00:31:03.060 some of the things that typically we've looked for in our workplaces.

00:31:07.540 There was a study that Adam Grant did with Facebook where they surveyed thousands and

00:31:12.700 thousands of Facebook employees all over the world and asked them what mattered most to

00:31:17.160 them in their job, what helped them be engaged and feel satisfied with their work.

00:31:22.320 And it sort of boiled down to what I call the three P's, profession, people, and purpose.

00:31:28.340 So profession just being people want to feel like they are good at their job, they're learning

00:31:34.620 new things.

00:31:35.760 People is you want to feel like you like your boss and your colleagues.

00:31:39.380 But purpose was this category of people want to feel like the work they're doing hasn't an

00:31:46.580 impact in the world, that it's making some sort of positive effect on the world.

00:31:51.100 And the reality is, how many of us have a job like that, right?

00:31:55.420 You know, like, that sounds really nice.

00:31:58.960 But if you're a bookkeeper or a marketer, you may not find that sense of purpose in your

00:32:06.000 work, but you absolutely can find it in your community.

00:32:09.660 I think there's lots of ways where we can feel like we're having a positive impact in the

00:32:16.440 world and we're creating meaning for ourself when we get really deeply involved in a community.

00:32:22.420 You know, we start volunteering for local organizations.

00:32:25.840 We build relationships in our community, maybe mentor people.

00:32:31.260 We start a nonprofit or raise money or become a friendly neighbor.

00:32:36.720 We're really fairly simple actions that can help us remember sort of what we want big

00:32:46.660 picture in our life.

00:32:48.180 Right.

00:32:48.360 So maybe you can look for a place if there's something that's really like a cause that's

00:32:52.120 really important to you.

00:32:53.060 Like if, I don't know, conservation is really important to you.

00:32:56.860 Maybe there's like a small town where that's, you know, sustainable farming is a thing where

00:33:01.560 you can be around that and take part in it.

00:33:03.780 I'm thinking like church, like that's a big part of people's purpose in life for a lot

00:33:08.600 of people.

00:33:09.220 And maybe you pick a place where there's a vibrant church community there, or maybe you

00:33:14.080 go to a place where it's not that vibrant and you feel like you can get things going

00:33:18.900 again.

00:33:20.000 Yeah.

00:33:20.360 I actually, a really great point that, you know, one of the things that I do in the

00:33:25.820 book is talk about, I talk about a lot of small towns because that's kind of my,

00:33:30.000 my secret mission here is to make people give smaller towns a second look.

00:33:36.380 I think a lot of them have a great quality of life to offer, but we don't need to move

00:33:42.160 to places that are already perfect.

00:33:43.740 And that can kind of be part of the purpose is choosing a place that needs you, you know,

00:33:48.560 that needs your contributions to become even better. 0.71

00:33:52.640 Not like you need to choose a place like, oh my gosh, this place is so crappy.

00:33:56.020 I'm going to go fix it.

00:33:57.360 But, you know, moving to a place with that mindset of contributing there instead of just

00:34:03.060 expecting the place to magically meet all your needs.

00:34:07.460 Yeah.

00:34:07.560 There's someone in our congregation of church that's like, why'd you move here?

00:34:11.940 It's like, well, God said we should be here.

00:34:13.300 And I'm like, that's like, do you have a job or anything?

00:34:15.660 No, just, we're going to be in Tulsa.

00:34:17.220 And I'm like, that's bold.

00:34:19.140 It seemed to work out for him.

00:34:20.640 I've heard that story from a lot of people, honestly, you know, people who are spiritual

00:34:28.160 or religious allow themselves to be drawn to particular places.

00:34:33.120 They maybe don't even know why, but, you know, that's pretty common to feel like God

00:34:39.080 called you to a place.

00:34:40.720 And I think that that's, you know, that's a real thing that we all kind of have missions

00:34:47.800 in life that we're fulfilling and we fulfill them in our, in our towns, in, in our cities.

00:34:54.500 It's the whole, you know, think globally, act locally.

00:34:58.880 And so wherever you end up, that's the local where you're going to act and where you have

00:35:05.260 a chance to make an impact.

00:35:07.320 So another factor is this idea of happiness.

00:35:10.940 What factors contribute to your happiness in a community?

00:35:15.200 So I talked about affordability being something huge that a lot of Anywhere's are looking for.

00:35:20.120 The second thing that Anywhere's are looking for is quality of life, which is a really sort

00:35:26.640 of nebulous term that I like to describe as just your access to the things that make you

00:35:34.080 happy on the daily.

00:35:35.780 So we know that there are a few things that have been proven to, to make people happy in

00:35:42.280 their places.

00:35:43.400 You know, people having social connections is a huge one.

00:35:47.280 Walkability.

00:35:48.220 People tend to feel more content in places that are walkable.

00:35:53.400 There was a study, um, uh, about a decade ago from the Knight Foundation in Gallup that found

00:35:59.700 that the three most important factors to people feeling satisfied in the place they live are

00:36:06.960 aesthetics, social offerings, and openness.

00:36:09.700 So feeling like the place you live is beautiful, feeling like your place has things to do and

00:36:17.200 people to do them with, and feeling like your place is welcoming.

00:36:20.700 Those can make you feel happy.

00:36:24.460 But again, those vary dramatically from person to person.

00:36:29.380 You know, what, what I find beautiful in a place may not be what you find beautiful in

00:36:34.240 a place.

00:36:34.780 So it's kind of becoming, you know, familiar with what that looks like for you.

00:36:41.380 And I sort of think, you know, understanding what in your daily life will bring you joy.

00:36:48.360 One of the stories I tell in the book is of a couple, Amy and James Hebden, who were living

00:36:53.440 in Seattle.

00:36:54.880 Amy started her own business and James joined her.

00:36:59.080 They could move anywhere and Seattle was really expensive.

00:37:03.420 So they started this process of looking around, but their number one consideration was honestly

00:37:09.520 chickens.

00:37:10.200 You know, they really wanted to raise chickens.

00:37:13.860 They were excited about having the chicken kind of life and, you know, like having a garden

00:37:20.560 and canning peaches and things like that.

00:37:23.820 That was really high on their list of what's going to make us happy in our daily life.

00:37:29.520 And so they, they ended up in a town in Tennessee and, and are doing really well there.

00:37:35.180 So I think if you can sort of identify, you know, having a place where I go every morning

00:37:41.240 to grab coffee is going to make me happy or having a great library is going to make me

00:37:46.460 happy.

00:37:47.000 Those are kind of the quality of life factors that matter to you.

00:37:51.520 And that should be on your location strategy list for sure.

00:37:55.800 Yeah.

00:37:55.960 You talk about, you highlight the mayor of Paris, Texas.

00:37:58.960 She had an initiative to make it a 15 minute city where anyone, you can get to anywhere

00:38:03.160 in the city in 15 minutes, whether by foot or public transport or bike.

00:38:07.300 Like I kind of like, that's one of the things I love about Tulsa is that you can get anywhere

00:38:11.540 in Tulsa in about 20 minutes or less.

00:38:13.500 You can get downtown in 20 minutes, have a great meal and then get back home in 20 minutes.

00:38:18.300 But then it's also, I love the location because we've, we're like really close to nature, but

00:38:23.300 I'm still in the city.

00:38:24.380 Like that's important to me.

00:38:25.280 I would hate to live someplace where I'd have to drive hours to get someplace remote.

00:38:30.180 But with Tulsa, I mean, I, we got everything.

00:38:32.000 We got the Apple store, we've got a big arena, Taylor Swift comes, but then I can go

00:38:36.640 to the, the Ozarks if I want to.

00:38:39.800 Yeah.

00:38:40.440 I love how you're selling Tulsa right now.

00:38:43.360 Tulsa is great.

00:38:44.540 This is what you do when you love a place, you know, you develop this thing called place

00:38:49.720 attachment, which is just those feelings of being at home.

00:38:53.400 And one of the signs of place attachment is actually, I like to tell other people about

00:38:58.540 where I live.

00:38:59.440 And so I love that you're doing that, Brett.

00:39:02.020 Like, Hey guys, Tulsa is the best and you should come live here.

00:39:06.120 Right.

00:39:06.200 If you live in California, you can buy a mansion in Tulsa and then we'll go to the

00:39:10.040 BOK center.

00:39:10.480 Let's get all the Californians to relocate in Tulsa. 1.00

00:39:12.800 We got the, uh, the river walk.

00:39:14.260 We got like nice trails along the Arkansas river.

00:39:17.160 It's, it's fantastic.

00:39:18.600 So this is all, all these factors are, they're really abstract.

00:39:21.340 Like you can go online and do some research in these different Facebook groups, but you,

00:39:26.880 you don't really know until you actually visit the place.

00:39:29.940 Like how do you, let's say you, you, you've created this spreadsheet of different places.

00:39:34.560 Do you recommend just actually going there and kind of giving these places a test, test

00:39:38.720 drive?

00:39:39.000 Yeah, for sure.

00:39:41.400 I don't recommend moving to a place that you've never been to, which I know happens.

00:39:45.920 I met a woman who lives a couple of towns over from me recently and she moved during COVID

00:39:52.820 was an anywhereist could go anywhere in the world.

00:39:57.160 And she and her husband got on Zillow and fell in love with a house and just bought it

00:40:02.640 sight unseen and moved to the small town in Virginia.

00:40:05.740 And when I met her, she was kind of like, we love the house, but, but the town, not so

00:40:12.520 much.

00:40:12.920 So I think there's, you know, a high capacity for disappointment if you're just, if you're

00:40:21.300 doing that, if you're buying a home and you've never been there.

00:40:24.140 So certainly I recommend that people visit bearing in mind that being a tourist in town is not

00:40:30.160 the same as living there.

00:40:31.260 So, you know, I mentioned people who have done, you know, a month in each in different

00:40:38.240 cities or who have done a road trip around the country.

00:40:43.180 If you can do, if you can swing that, I think that's a great approach.

00:40:47.940 Most of us can't.

00:40:49.440 So I think, you know, doing a visit, kind of absorbing the vibe in a place is really helpful.

00:40:57.900 Doing your research to figure out how much of the things you're looking for does this

00:41:03.620 community offer.

00:41:05.580 But I think kind of the addendum to that is that no matter where you live, you will almost

00:41:12.880 certainly get to a point where you think you've made a terrible mistake.

00:41:16.340 It's almost inevitable.

00:41:18.260 And that's because, A, no town is perfect, and it may take you a hot minute to discover

00:41:25.080 why, but B, it takes a while for us to fall in love with communities.

00:41:32.380 Place attachment peaks about five years after you move somewhere, and five years is a long

00:41:39.140 time to feel like you don't necessarily fit in.

00:41:43.880 So I think, you know, we can choose to be intentional about falling in love with the

00:41:52.480 place that we've chosen, even though, you know, once you move there, you might discover

00:41:56.800 some of those faults.

00:41:59.340 And also, you know, none of these decisions have to be permanent.

00:42:03.700 You don't have to stay in a place that turned out to be horrible for you.

00:42:09.340 But I think you got to give yourself a lot of grace, and you have to give your new community

00:42:15.000 a lot of time.

00:42:16.700 This is just a process, even, you know, no matter how carefully you've chosen, it just

00:42:23.040 is going to take a little while to really fall in love with that community.

00:42:29.480 Okay, so yeah, do a test run.

00:42:30.540 I think, I imagine the best way to do a test run is instead of staying in a hotel there,

00:42:34.220 like, do an Airbnb, like, in a home, right?

00:42:37.580 So you actually feel what it's like to live, right?

00:42:40.360 Because, like, the hotel is usually off by the highway, and it's different.

00:42:43.380 Airbnb it for a week.

00:42:44.820 If you can do a month, fantastic.

00:42:46.560 And then, yeah, give it time, because it takes a while to get that place in attachment.

00:42:50.640 And then, yeah, don't be afraid to course correct.

00:42:52.240 I mean, you talked about that one family.

00:42:54.260 They went to Iowa, and they're like, we don't like Iowa or the Midwest, wherever they were,

00:42:58.040 and they went to Eugene, Oregon.

00:43:00.140 Right, yeah.

00:43:00.820 Yeah, so you definitely can course correct, but don't course correct too soon.

00:43:06.520 You know, be as intentional as you were about creating a location strategy for yourself

00:43:11.300 and being really thoughtful about where you wanted to live.

00:43:14.300 You should be just as intentional and thoughtful about settling into the place and trying to

00:43:22.480 make it your home.

00:43:23.120 So, yeah, I think doing a test run, staying in an Airbnb, trying to meet people, attending

00:43:28.800 community events, eating at local restaurants instead of McDonald's, like, living like a

00:43:35.280 local would live, you know, a week isn't probably enough time, but it will certainly give you

00:43:40.720 a sense of what life would be like in this place, which I think is what we're all imagining

00:43:45.960 for ourselves.

00:43:46.720 You know, what would it be like to live in this place?

00:43:49.680 Well, Melody, this has been a great conversation.

00:43:51.000 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:43:54.060 You can go to my website, which is my name, MelodyWarnick.com, and I have links to my

00:44:00.140 books, This Is Where You Belong, and If You Could Live Anywhere, and you can also subscribe

00:44:04.100 to my newsletter, which is all about place and why it's so important to us.

00:44:09.700 Fantastic.

00:44:10.180 Well, Melody Warnick, thanks for your time.

00:44:11.320 It's been a pleasure.

00:44:12.700 Thanks so much, Brett.

00:44:13.760 I loved it.

00:44:15.320 My guest today was Melody Warnick.

00:44:16.660 She's the author of the book, If You Could Live Anywhere.

00:44:18.520 It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:44:20.640 You can find more information about her work at our website, MelodyWarnick.com.

00:44:24.320 Also, check out our show notes at AOM.is slash anywhere, where you can find links to resources

00:44:28.060 and we can delve deeper into this topic.

00:44:29.400 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AOM Podcast.

00:44:39.240 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com, where you can find our podcast archives,

00:44:42.820 as well as thousands of articles written over the years about pretty much anything you'd

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00:45:10.220 Until next time, it's Brett McKay.

00:45:11.540 Reminds you on this AOM Podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:45:27.440 Thank you.

00:45:29.880 Thank you.

00:45:30.820 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - August 17, 2022

Where You Should Live When You Could Live Anywhere

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