The Art of Manliness - Why You Need the Good Stress of Socializing

00:00:00.000 Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.

00:00:11.420 You may have heard of hormesis, the idea that intentionally embracing small stressors

00:00:15.840 activates the body's repair and defense systems, building resilience, improving how the body

00:00:20.580 and even the microbiome function, and ultimately protecting against the harms of chronic stress.

00:00:25.260 We typically think of these hormetic stressors in terms of things like exercising, taking

00:00:29.360 ice baths, sitting in a sauna, and ingesting certain plant compounds, but you ought to

00:00:34.000 consider adding socializing to that list.

00:00:36.700 As my guest today explains, while we tend to avoid socializing as we do all stressors,

00:00:40.960 even the good ones, it's something that can strengthen our health, resilience, immunity,

00:00:45.400 and sense of meaning.

00:00:47.160 Jeffrey Hall, professor of communication studies and co-author of The Social Biome, How Everyday

00:00:51.580 Communication Connects and Shapes Us, joins me to discuss why relationships are harder

00:00:55.780 to build in the modern world, how our adolescent approach to making friends needs to evolve,

00:01:00.100 and why we must intentionally exercise our social muscles in a world where they're otherwise

00:01:04.140 atrophied.

00:01:05.200 After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash social stress.

00:01:09.000 All right, Jeffrey Hall, welcome back to the show.

00:01:26.920 It's so good to be here.

00:01:28.140 So you research human relationships from friendships to romantic relationships.

00:01:33.280 We had you on the podcast back in 2022 to talk about your research on how long it takes

00:01:39.660 to make a new friend, and the short answer is longer than you think, and we'll let people

00:01:44.780 listen to that episode to get the details on it.

00:01:47.460 You got a new book out called The Social Biome that you co-authored.

00:01:51.740 Let's talk about that title, Social Biome.

00:01:54.080 What do you mean by a social biome?

00:01:56.680 Yeah.

00:01:57.220 Well, I'm really glad to be back again.

00:01:58.880 I always like our conversations, and it's an honor to be a multiple guest appearance.

00:02:02.340 Yeah, Andy and I came up with this idea of the social biome back in about 2019, so pre-pandemic,

00:02:08.820 and the reason that we started thinking about it is that people are very familiar with this

00:02:12.680 idea of a gut microbiome, and the idea is that there's this interdependent system within your

00:02:16.900 guts that make the ability to digest food easier or harder.

00:02:21.240 It gets destroyed if you take antibiotics, but it affects everything from your mood to your

00:02:26.100 sickness, your wellness.

00:02:27.520 Even your brain health is affected by your gut microbiome.

00:02:29.980 Microbiome also happens when we touch people, right?

00:02:33.020 It kind of affects how we are.

00:02:34.520 Well, Andy and I thought, well, there's also a social biome.

00:02:37.000 It's this interdependent system of relationships, social interactions that we have with one

00:02:41.400 another that we both occupy.

00:02:43.260 We live in it, but we also are dependent on other people within it.

00:02:46.400 So how people treat us, whether people accept us, whether people introduce their own germs,

00:02:51.500 if you will, like negativity or conflict, or whether they're actually increasing things

00:02:55.480 to increase our health.

00:02:56.920 And what we know from social interaction research is that these things make a big difference

00:03:00.520 in mortality, morbidity, just like your gut microbiome makes a difference in your health

00:03:04.140 too.

00:03:05.040 Yeah, I'm sure people have heard about the health benefits of a social life, but for those

00:03:09.600 who aren't familiar, can you just recap the benefits of having a robust, healthy social

00:03:13.380 life?

00:03:14.220 Yeah, the thing that's crazy about this is this is something that's been building for about

00:03:17.500 15 years of momentum.

00:03:18.960 Some of the earliest studies on these things began to say, well, let's follow up with folks

00:03:23.000 that we surveyed, you know, 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago and see whether they live longer

00:03:27.520 or they live shorter lives, whether they had, you know, some disease or otherwise.

00:03:31.540 And what they found was one of the most consistent predictors was whether or not people had strong

00:03:35.740 social relationships, whether they had frequent social interactions, whether or not they could

00:03:40.520 say, I have more quality friends or quality romantic partner relationships.

00:03:44.380 So quality, frequency, and also social interaction all ended up being these important predictors.

00:03:50.720 And what's fascinating is you also look at like the famous Harvard men's study and other

00:03:54.600 studies of longitudinal health.

00:03:56.560 It finds that even if you change in the middle of your life, you can make it better later.

00:04:00.900 So let's say that you are, you know, in your 20s and 30s, very career focused, and you're

00:04:04.940 really not making time for building relationships with other people and you move around a lot.

00:04:09.100 But if you change in your 40s and 50s, you can actually live a longer, healthier life

00:04:13.500 later too.

00:04:14.640 So what's fascinating about these different longitudinal studies is that it doesn't really

00:04:18.540 matter when you start investing in your relationships and other people.

00:04:22.500 It's always beneficial, at least seems to be always beneficial to your health, your well-being,

00:04:26.980 your sense of purpose and meaning, and of course, whether or not you are likely to die earlier.

00:04:32.200 Yeah, that's the interesting thing is the longevity research on social relationships, how there's

00:04:37.600 really a tight correlation between the two.

00:04:39.280 Yeah, there are a couple of processes that people think about are probably why.

00:04:43.580 The one that Andy and I spent some time exploring, because it's so interesting, is has this idea

00:04:48.100 of stress.

00:04:49.260 So I was talking to a good friend of mine in California, and she and I were talking about

00:04:53.740 how lousy it is to approach 50 years old.

00:04:57.060 We've been friends for a long time, and we're like, yeah, you know, I exercise pretty regularly.

00:05:01.340 I watch what I eat.

00:05:02.240 I don't eat a lot of bad food or bad diet.

00:05:04.900 But the thing that my doctor is always telling me is, you've got to reduce your stress. 0.99

00:05:07.840 And I'm like, damn it. 0.98

00:05:09.300 This is so hard to reduce my stress. 0.99

00:05:11.860 And I think that we all kind of have this intuitive sense that when we feel relaxed,

00:05:15.820 when we feel truly at peace with ourselves or accepted, we can feel our stress levels go down.

00:05:21.720 I don't know about you, but, you know, when I hang out with a friend over lunch or catch

00:05:25.160 over drinks or have them over to my home or talk to them on the phone, I feel like my body

00:05:30.120 almost like unwinding, you know, relaxing, feeling safe.

00:05:34.460 So researchers believe that one of the most important processes of feeling close, connected,

00:05:39.200 and meaningful to other people is that it actually reduces our overall stress response.

00:05:44.480 It kind of like turns it off.

00:05:45.780 It turns off our stress.

00:05:47.500 And what we also know about that is our body cannot marshal the resources that it needs to

00:05:51.680 fight off infection unless that it is able to kind of put those sort of stressors away.

00:05:56.100 So there's a famous study that actually found that people who had better social connections

00:06:00.240 and relationships were people who were also able to fight off a virus that the researchers

00:06:04.720 injected into participants to find out how sick they got.

00:06:07.820 So folks who were really social and had really good relationships were able to fight off sickness

00:06:12.100 better.

00:06:12.980 So one of the main reasons we think that it actually contributes to longevity is that over

00:06:17.080 your whole life, when you have meaningful relationships, people you can count on,

00:06:21.420 close connections with others, you're basically living in a de-stressed environment,

00:06:25.840 a lot more frequently than you would if you had nobody.

00:06:28.820 And we know that loneliness is extremely stressful for the people who endure it.

00:06:33.100 I want to go back to this idea of stress because, okay, you're saying here that socializing

00:06:38.340 can reduce stress.

00:06:40.600 But then later on in the book, you talk about how socializing is a stressor.

00:06:44.440 We're going to return to that because I think that's interesting.

00:06:46.740 There's a lot of cool metaphors that we can extract from that.

00:06:49.100 But before we do, we talk about all these great health benefits, mental wellness benefits of

00:06:54.840 regularly socializing with other people and avoiding loneliness.

00:06:58.640 People probably know about that.

00:07:00.160 There's so many articles about the loneliness crisis, the loneliness epidemic, and you shouldn't

00:07:04.220 be lonely.

00:07:05.580 Nonetheless, people are still hesitant to socialize.

00:07:10.880 What do you think is going on there?

00:07:12.440 Yeah.

00:07:12.640 Andy and I, one of the things we really shot for when we were writing this book is to be

00:07:17.280 sympathetic rather than to be sort of like a school marm shaking your finger and telling

00:07:21.080 other people how to behave like, you know, you really should be more social for your own

00:07:25.040 good.

00:07:25.740 What we really wanted to do is try to explain, well, why aren't we?

00:07:28.660 What are the barriers?

00:07:29.660 Why we don't?

00:07:30.820 And people have very good reasons for not being social.

00:07:34.060 So I think there are structural reasons, there are personal reasons, and then there are sort of

00:07:37.600 like routine related reasons.

00:07:39.900 Let's start structurally.

00:07:41.140 One of the strongest negative associations with time spent socializing is work.

00:07:46.080 We are in a curious economy right now in part, not like 2025, but I mean in modern history,

00:07:53.060 where people in the top income brackets in the United States who don't have to keep working work

00:07:58.540 more.

00:07:59.560 So it doesn't matter how success you are.

00:08:01.680 People who are professionals and working harder work even more hours.

00:08:04.780 We also have the emergence of gig economies where people are basically on call all the time

00:08:09.720 to try to make money to Uber somebody around or to DoorDash.

00:08:13.240 We're in an environment in which we are constantly working in order to sort of make time to be able

00:08:17.840 to live.

00:08:18.820 All of that is creeping into our ability to be social.

00:08:21.560 And there's really good evidence that the more that we're working, the harder that we're trying

00:08:25.120 to make ends meet, the less time we have for being social.

00:08:27.840 The other structural reason I think is really important is we don't have a lot of third spaces,

00:08:32.000 which are basically these places where we feel comfortable just gathering together and being

00:08:36.160 together.

00:08:37.120 You know, Robert Putnam did amazing work all the way back to 2000, year 2000, when he released

00:08:42.720 Bowling Alone.

00:08:43.880 And at that time, it was demise of bowling leagues, of rotary clubs, of Elks clubs, and all these kind

00:08:48.840 of things.

00:08:49.680 Since that point, it's been the decline of churches and synagogues and places of worship

00:08:53.960 where people aren't showing up or not attending weekly, although in the last two or three years

00:08:58.360 we've had an uptick, which is good news for socialization.

00:09:01.900 So there are these structural changes that are happening around work, around third spaces,

00:09:05.880 or around kind of, you know, organized spaces for being social that are in decline. 0.99

00:09:10.120 And the other reason is people suck. 1.00

00:09:12.960 People are disappointing. 1.00

00:09:14.580 People let you down.

00:09:15.740 People hurt your feelings.

00:09:16.920 And one of the things that Andy and I really wanted to communicate a message on here is,

00:09:21.440 but we have a system of repair.

00:09:23.960 We have a need to belong that pushes us towards continuing to work at those relationships,

00:09:28.520 even if they are frustrating.

00:09:30.280 And I think what people find, and lots of researchers confirm this, is we imagine worse

00:09:35.260 outcomes from relational mistakes or things that we feel hurt about or things we think

00:09:40.740 we screwed up, like we're boring or we didn't make a good impression or we said something

00:09:45.180 wrong.

00:09:45.860 We exaggerate those things in a way that make us feel like we can't do it.

00:09:49.600 We don't want to socialize anymore because it's just not enough.

00:09:52.920 So part of it is because people are disappointing, we don't want to continue to work at having

00:09:57.340 our relationships with people because we're like, why bother?

00:10:00.020 You know, it's just never going to get any closer or this person really stunk and I don't

00:10:03.380 want to be part of their lives anymore.

00:10:05.240 But the last reason it's so difficult is routine.

00:10:07.700 One thing that's been very healthy in my lifetime is I've seen people have a lot more consciousness

00:10:12.240 about the importance of a good health routine around exercise.

00:10:14.800 I think I always knew it growing up, but I feel like people are even treating some exercise

00:10:20.220 opportunities almost like in a religious way.

00:10:22.440 Like they just really truly believe that this set of exercise routines that they have are

00:10:26.520 going to help them be better.

00:10:27.720 And there's a very good reason to think that it will.

00:10:30.020 People are only recently waking up to the idea of having a good social routine.

00:10:34.580 One reporter asked me, do you think there's been a change of heart about whether or not

00:10:37.600 people actually need to prioritize spending time with friends or create a routine about being

00:10:42.040 social?

00:10:42.480 And I'm like, I hope, but I don't think so.

00:10:44.920 I think our current way of thinking about it is being social is the very last thing we're

00:10:49.920 going to do if we have time for it, because we've got to make time for exercise.

00:10:54.220 We've got to make time for our families.

00:10:55.640 We've got to make time for work, our commute.

00:10:58.060 And of course, I think a lot of it is we want to make time for the things which are hedonistically

00:11:01.780 pleasurable in the moment, but do nothing for us socially, which is I need to finish that

00:11:05.800 next Netflix series so I can be up on, you know, the new episodes that I love.

00:11:10.480 So there's a sense in which of accomplishment and access to easy media is making it even

00:11:15.920 harder for us to realize that those routines are worth fighting for.

00:11:18.840 And they are a fight.

00:11:19.860 We have to find ways to make social life be part of our routines, and people generally

00:11:24.280 don't.

00:11:25.620 Speaking to that idea of the decline of socializing as a routine, one of the things that I'm always

00:11:31.300 struck by when I read biographies of individuals who lived in the first half of the 20th century

00:11:36.260 was how busy their social calendar was.

00:11:40.240 Yep.

00:11:40.400 Like every night they were either at a dinner party or hosting the dinner party or they're

00:11:44.200 playing bridge or they had, it was like, it was like every single night.

00:11:48.080 And I think about, I don't know if I could do that, but for them, it was a given.

00:11:52.820 That's just what you, you were expected to do that.

00:11:55.600 And we no longer have that expectation.

00:11:58.240 Yeah.

00:11:58.420 The expectation part is key.

00:11:59.780 I think you're absolutely right, Brett.

00:12:00.740 I mean, when I grew up, my parents hosted bridge events in our basement, and I remember

00:12:04.980 them pulling out the card tables.

00:12:06.740 My dad told me this great story, it was when he was a bachelor for the first time, and this

00:12:10.340 would have been like in the late 50s.

00:12:12.120 No, this would have been in the late 60s, sorry.

00:12:15.660 That he, first thing he wanted to do was set up a bar at his apartment, because that's

00:12:20.140 what you did.

00:12:20.600 You had friends over to entertain them, so that drinking wasn't something you did alone.

00:12:23.780 It was, you had to have it so that you could entertain.

00:12:25.860 I did actually a research project recently that found that how many nights a week that

00:12:31.440 people are going out to visit their friends has gone down a lot.

00:12:34.560 But what's even more kind of surprising is when people idealize what a good night would

00:12:39.120 be, they idealize a less social one.

00:12:41.640 So in the past, when you ask them that question, what's an ideal night?

00:12:44.400 A lot of people say, oh, time with friends, out doing interesting things, or spending time

00:12:48.800 together with people who I'm really enjoying, or a visit from someone who I care about, or

00:12:52.520 visiting someone I care about.

00:12:53.820 Now, when I did the survey just last year, what I found people were saying is, spending

00:12:59.320 time alone, quietly in a room, watching my favorite program, and relaxing in pajamas.

00:13:04.560 Like, there was this glorification of a feeling in which detachment is actually pleasurable.

00:13:09.800 It feels better to be away from others.

00:13:12.720 And so what's curious is that we've had an expectation shift that's so dramatic, not just,

00:13:17.680 I think, from the early 1900s, which is absolutely true, but even from the 1950s, the 1960s,

00:13:23.340 1970s, and 80s.

00:13:24.620 Like, it's even palpable if you look at just how people responded to these survey questions

00:13:28.980 from that time period.

00:13:30.240 Yeah.

00:13:30.600 I mean, you see it sort of anecdotally when people tweet things or Instagram things.

00:13:35.060 They talk about, well, I'm just so happy that people canceled the plans at the last

00:13:39.200 minute, because now I don't have to do that thing, you know?

00:13:41.560 And that's the expectation now.

00:13:42.900 Like, people, the expectation is, I just want to be by myself, not be around other people.

00:13:47.380 And you call this world we're living in now, the age of interiority.

00:13:51.760 Yep.

00:13:52.640 Yeah.

00:13:53.320 The age of interiority idea came up a while ago.

00:13:56.020 I got a report for the Wall Street Journal on this topic of declining time spending being

00:14:00.000 social.

00:14:00.640 And that it was, this time decline was not just in the United States.

00:14:03.560 It happened in UK data, data from Australia, and other less precise measurement throughout

00:14:08.780 the global north, but also places like Japan, and so industrialized world in general.

00:14:14.400 And what's interesting about this is this decline of sociality happens, it seems, over

00:14:19.120 longer periods of time in kind of a pendulum swing.

00:14:22.280 So on one side of the pendulum is this idea that being alone is something to be glorified.

00:14:27.000 So we can see this in the Romantic era where people are like, I'm wandering lonely like

00:14:31.000 a cloud, or to move away from civilization is the only way to find oneself.

00:14:35.240 And the monastery, or the monk, or the aesthetic, who was completely in denial of social contact,

00:14:41.040 like almost to a hermit-like status, these people were glorified as being either closer

00:14:45.500 to being divine, which kind of like was the contemporary understanding of what it meant

00:14:49.140 to be enlightened, or maybe your full self, right?

00:14:53.120 Unencumbered by others.

00:14:54.740 And then there were other periods of time, if you look at the discourse and the time,

00:14:57.800 it was like people who are on the margins of society are outcasts.

00:15:01.560 People who are hermits are misanthropes. 0.99

00:15:03.760 People who are seeking their own time are selfish, that we are obliged to one another,

00:15:07.980 and that obligation to one another carries incredible benefits in terms of democracy,

00:15:12.680 and discourse, and camaraderie, and a sense of purpose and meaning, or community.

00:15:17.280 Or I think people of faith talk about this as like brotherhood, or a sense of, you know,

00:15:22.080 this is what communion looks like.

00:15:23.960 What's interesting is when that pendulum swings back and forth, people seem to turn either

00:15:28.760 towards or away from the idea of being solitary is a good thing.

00:15:32.480 I think we are in a time of interiority.

00:15:35.520 The pendulum has swung towards, you know, Putnam forecasted it in his bowling alone.

00:15:41.020 Time use trends are forecasting it now.

00:15:43.620 You know, you offer that example of people having like top Google searches, like how do

00:15:47.580 I get out of plans, or how do I stop showing up?

00:15:50.580 But we also see that at my daughter's, one of my favorite places, her favorite place is

00:15:54.580 to shop for socks.

00:15:55.820 And she's a fan of fun socks.

00:15:57.900 It's a place called Attic Salt.

00:15:58.900 And I took a picture of socks that say, friends don't make friends hang out.

00:16:02.840 You know, it's curious.

00:16:04.160 It's everywhere is the sense that not interacting with others is something to be celebrated.

00:16:08.980 And I think when we think about this, in one way, this normalization of being alone

00:16:13.720 and isolated is something that I see everywhere throughout our media and our representations

00:16:19.060 of what's being valued.

00:16:20.380 But in another way, it's making sense of something.

00:16:22.820 We're collectively trying to come to terms with the fact that we don't have a social

00:16:26.920 life.

00:16:27.680 We don't have opportunities to connect.

00:16:30.120 We're too tired.

00:16:31.120 We're too stressed out.

00:16:32.040 We don't have the bandwidth.

00:16:33.580 So we need a remedy.

00:16:34.920 We need a solution that makes us feel soothed and comforted by the fact that this is the

00:16:38.660 reality we live in.

00:16:39.920 And the age of interiority is also basically making sense of a situation we don't like,

00:16:44.680 but we need to make sense of it.

00:16:45.980 So we say, it's okay to be alone. 0.98

00:16:47.640 It's okay to spend more time away from others because other people suck and friends don't 0.97

00:16:52.060 make friends hang out. 0.96

00:16:54.320 Right.

00:16:54.500 So we're engaging in some ex post facto reasoning, some after the fact reasoning, because we find

00:17:01.080 ourselves not having much of a social life.

00:17:04.000 And instead of facing that fact and maybe letting ourselves be a little sad or disturbed by that

00:17:10.520 lack, we tell ourselves, well, you know what?

00:17:12.940 I'm glad I don't have to socialize.

00:17:14.560 I didn't want to socialize anyway.

00:17:16.480 Yeah.

00:17:16.660 Okay.

00:17:17.380 So the reason why things are so hard or people have social inertia to socialize, the structural

00:17:23.220 aspect of it, we're working more, our work schedules are completely different.

00:17:28.080 It's not like, you know, 50 years ago where everyone nine to five, then, you know, everyone's

00:17:32.320 got different schedules.

00:17:33.220 I think related to that, the structural aspect too, I've noticed as a parent with, you know,

00:17:38.260 preteen and teenagers, kids are just doing all sorts of different stuff.

00:17:42.760 You know, it used to be maybe like 60 years ago, you either did Boy Scouts and you did

00:17:45.940 like the little league in your town and that was it.

00:17:48.900 Now it's, you know, your kids can be involved in volleyball and dance and student council.

00:17:55.720 And so you have parents who are trying to shuffle their kids to these different things.

00:18:00.620 And because these things are all out of sync, like parents can't get together and hang out

00:18:05.140 and the kids can't get together and hang out.

00:18:06.920 So that's another structural aspect.

00:18:09.100 I think you nailed it, man.

00:18:11.160 I think you nailed it.

00:18:11.900 And I'll point out something that's, I will tell you is a bright spot in the data.

00:18:16.160 So the bright spot in the data is that people who are families who are married with children

00:18:20.980 are spending as much or more time at home with their kids in social time.

00:18:26.640 And that's a good thing.

00:18:27.560 We know that strong bonds with children are good for children.

00:18:30.180 We know that strong bonds with children are good for parents.

00:18:32.120 And we see a particular uptick, and I would say this for your listeners out there, for

00:18:37.560 men.

00:18:38.380 It looks like married men with children are spending more time with their kids than they 0.81

00:18:41.940 have in the past.

00:18:42.740 And this is a good thing.

00:18:44.120 And it's something to celebrate.

00:18:45.100 I think it's kind of one of those things.

00:18:46.180 You don't often hear good news about men and boys.

00:18:48.360 And I think this is something that's really great.

00:18:50.080 You know, fathers are more invested in the context of a married relationship with their

00:18:53.540 children.

00:18:54.500 And I think that what's important about that is where does that time come from, though?

00:18:58.060 And you're alluding to the idea is that time has to come from maybe a time parents went

00:19:03.380 with each other.

00:19:04.320 And that's what cracks me up when I think about it.

00:19:06.000 I'm like, well, where was I when my parents were down in the basement playing cards with

00:19:09.140 their friends?

00:19:09.820 Or when my parents did stuff, did they expect to be entertaining me?

00:19:14.380 We're in this kind of curious time where I think a lot of parents, especially ones who

00:19:18.740 are upper class or upper class aspiring, are trying to cultivate this sort of perfect experience

00:19:23.640 for their kids because they're concerned in a broader sense their kid won't have every

00:19:27.420 opportunity that they need to be successful to get into college or career wise because

00:19:32.480 they have all this broader sense of social anxiety or an economic anxiety.

00:19:37.420 And frankly, the age of AI and the kind of conversations like pretty soon we won't even,

00:19:42.000 you know, have any jobs because AI will take all of them does not help.

00:19:45.660 As a parent of, you know, a 15 year old and a 12 year old, I'm like, God, I have no clue

00:19:50.360 what's coming to pass.

00:19:51.320 So it makes you feel more anxious that you need to be making sure your kid is studying

00:19:55.380 and learning and engaging in extracurriculars.

00:19:58.060 As a consequence, this cultivation of childhood has the positive consequences of parents spending

00:20:04.360 more time with their kids.

00:20:05.260 And that's good.

00:20:06.080 But as the negative consequences of us trying to micromanage a perfect experience, which

00:20:10.400 means parents aren't spending time with each other.

00:20:12.440 They're not going out with their friends.

00:20:14.060 They feel like they can't prioritize their own time one on one with their own friends, because

00:20:19.340 in some ways, that's really not a good, you know, long term economic decision for their

00:20:23.840 families.

00:20:25.060 So one of the pieces of advice that I give a lot in these things is couples should support

00:20:29.820 each other having friends that are not couple friends that are individual friends.

00:20:34.240 So, you know, if you are in any kind of marriage or long term relationship, you should encourage

00:20:40.520 your partner to have friends and go spend time with their friends.

00:20:44.080 And that may seem obvious, but there's actually a lot of counter discourse that say, you know,

00:20:48.380 don't go out with your friends because maybe they think that their friends are going to

00:20:52.260 have a bad influence on them in early parts of the relationship, or you're not spending

00:20:55.920 enough time with your own kids if you're married with children, or you just, you shouldn't

00:20:59.860 be going out.

00:21:00.680 You should be at home with us.

00:21:02.320 But what's interesting is, is there's lots of good research that says a happier marriage

00:21:06.180 is also one where couples, each member of that partnership has friends.

00:21:11.260 I've seen that in my own life.

00:21:12.520 Whenever I hang out with my friends, I just show up better with my family.

00:21:16.800 Yeah, and it also shows that you're being cared for and nourished by other folks.

00:21:21.400 As a person who actually studies friendship a lot, I've thought very deeply about the

00:21:25.880 idea that one person can't provide everything for you.

00:21:28.880 You need a community of people to help you feel a fully robust and rich person.

00:21:33.960 And frankly, my wife is wonderful, but my friends provide different advice.

00:21:38.680 They have different stories.

00:21:40.700 They're willing to talk about NBA basketball with me. 0.98

00:21:43.320 They're willing to kind of shoot the shit about politics in a way that my wife and I 0.99

00:21:47.840 just don't. 0.99

00:21:48.820 So there's a different communication.

00:21:50.420 There's a different topic.

00:21:51.360 There's a different depth.

00:21:52.380 There's a different way of knowing me.

00:21:54.160 And I think all of those things make me better in my relationship and more able to have a

00:21:59.120 long-term meaningful relationship with my partner.

00:22:01.700 Okay.

00:22:01.800 So barriers to socializing, the structural aspect, work, intensive parenting. 0.99

00:22:05.660 Then the other barrier is just people suck. 0.99

00:22:08.920 You know, people let you down and disappoint you. 0.99

00:22:11.460 And then the third one, third obstacle is just routines of socializing.

00:22:14.220 We don't have them anymore.

00:22:15.420 There's no longer the expectation that you socialize regularly.

00:22:19.300 What's interesting though, so socializing is hard.

00:22:21.920 As you said, you're trying to be very sympathetic and letting people know, yes, yes, it's good

00:22:26.200 for you, but yes, it's very hard to come by.

00:22:28.360 But what's interesting, I still think a lot of people have the expectation that socializing

00:22:35.820 should be easy, even though there's all these obstacles.

00:22:39.020 How do you think that mismatch between expectation and reality also gets in the way of socializing?

00:22:44.360 Yeah, it plays a big role.

00:22:46.000 And I am very sympathetic to this because I have a group of high school friends that we

00:22:50.380 try to get together and it is really hard to schedule something.

00:22:53.140 There's five of us.

00:22:54.080 We have very different schedules.

00:22:55.160 Some of us work jobs that have to commute a lot.

00:22:58.360 Some people have busy travel schedules or family schedules.

00:23:01.160 It's hard.

00:23:02.180 So it's legitimately difficult to get people together.

00:23:05.000 Part of the reason that we have this weird expectation that should be easy though, I think

00:23:08.680 comes from the fact that during developmental times in our life where we found the most friends,

00:23:12.680 which tend to happen during elementary school to high school period.

00:23:16.060 And then for some people who go to college, that's also an important time as well.

00:23:20.260 During all of those times, the structure created time.

00:23:24.260 So I'll just give you an F for instance.

00:23:26.080 I went to a high school that I knew a lot of the folks that went to high school with

00:23:30.620 me from middle school and some of them from elementary school.

00:23:34.080 I lived within driving distance of most of them as most people who go to high school in

00:23:38.080 the United States do.

00:23:39.280 I did activities with them during the day, such as we took similar classes, but I also

00:23:44.260 did activities with them after the day was over.

00:23:46.400 We did cross country or swimming.

00:23:47.840 The creation of a school system necessitated lots and lots of my time being spent with

00:23:54.300 the same people over and over again.

00:23:56.140 That is the recipe for friendship.

00:23:58.260 So when I say that those times your life were easier to make friends, that's just fact.

00:24:02.220 But it's fact because it was necessary to spend time together in order to do any of those

00:24:07.120 things.

00:24:07.800 What's interesting is if you think about or you disaggregate what school does and put that

00:24:13.340 into your regular life, what would that mean?

00:24:15.060 That would mean you would see people during the day, you would pick activities you enjoy

00:24:19.220 together and do them together.

00:24:21.060 You would also date from that same group of people and be single, which is usually characteristic

00:24:24.860 not a lot of high school students have a partner.

00:24:27.040 What that means, though, is you're open to the possibility of new relationships.

00:24:31.660 As we mature and move into emerging adulthood, which is roughly between 22 and 30, and then later

00:24:37.620 in a middle age adulthood, what we start doing is closing off all of those avenues.

00:24:41.740 We say, I'm now living with a partner, so I'm not going to go out without her.

00:24:45.060 We say, now I have children, so I can't go out because I need to be a good parent.

00:24:49.760 We say, well, I have to work extra hours because I'm committed to this.

00:24:53.220 All of those foreclosures of our time and openness to making friends makes it harder

00:24:58.820 and harder to make friends.

00:25:00.220 But we don't remember that school was a time in which you had tons of time, tons of people

00:25:05.740 available to be made friends with, lots of activities to do together.

00:25:09.340 And this is critical.

00:25:10.840 Like you were in a time of your life where it was developmentally important to be connected

00:25:16.520 with other people that were not people from your family of origin.

00:25:19.840 What happens in later life is your developmental period focuses on new family, new connections

00:25:25.600 that you now solidify and bring into fruition.

00:25:28.160 So what's interesting is, is that people don't see the developmental changes.

00:25:32.520 And frankly, academics like myself do a very bad job of talking about adult development.

00:25:37.540 Like we just don't talk about it very much.

00:25:39.980 We don't think about it.

00:25:40.960 But essentially that means is people don't even understand the reason it was so easy in

00:25:44.780 the past was the circumstances created that ease and we just can't see it.

00:25:48.940 Right.

00:25:49.120 So when we're young, we're brought together with peers by default.

00:25:51.860 You know, it's automatic.

00:25:53.200 It's built into the structure of our lives.

00:25:55.040 We don't have to try it.

00:25:56.680 It's just really easy to make friends.

00:25:59.000 But then we carry that expectation over into adulthood, even though we're in a very different

00:26:05.860 stage of life.

00:26:06.820 And that old pattern from our youth where we don't have to be intentional doesn't work

00:26:12.500 anymore.

00:26:13.760 We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.

00:26:18.460 And now back to the show.

00:26:20.180 I've seen this mismatch of expectation and reality when it comes to socializing, making

00:26:25.020 friends and different groups that I belong to.

00:26:27.980 And it's frustrating for me, people's kind of inflated, inflated expectations.

00:26:33.780 Yeah.

00:26:34.020 So, you know, I was in charge of the men's group in our church, I think about 10 years

00:26:37.600 ago.

00:26:38.560 And a common complaint was there's not enough fellowship.

00:26:42.560 And so, okay, well, let's do something about it.

00:26:44.540 Let's, let's plan some events.

00:26:45.740 We plan some events and we would do a lot to communicate.

00:26:49.160 This is the time we're doing it.

00:26:50.380 Here's what's going to happen.

00:26:51.240 Who's going to come.

00:26:52.000 We get show of hands and we get this buy-in.

00:26:53.820 And then the day of the event would show up and it would just be the leaders there.

00:26:58.620 You're like, okay.

00:27:00.220 And then, so you're like, oh, hey, we had this event, you know, guys, people couldn't

00:27:03.860 make it.

00:27:04.380 And people, you know, the common excuses were like, oh, I was just busy or I was just

00:27:07.980 tired.

00:27:08.900 Had something else going on.

00:27:11.060 And well, okay, we'll plan another event and like no one to show up.

00:27:14.040 And then people will just continue to grouse.

00:27:15.620 Well, there's no fellowship.

00:27:16.500 And you're like, okay, guys, we're, we're trying to create this for you, but it's going to

00:27:19.240 take some effort to make this happen.

00:27:20.760 And they just get upset.

00:27:21.980 It's like, why, why don't we have fellowship?

00:27:23.640 And it's like, well, it's, it's hard.

00:27:25.560 You got to show up.

00:27:26.280 You got to make the effort.

00:27:27.060 You got to make it a priority.

00:27:28.260 And if you don't, then you're not going to have that thing you want.

00:27:31.840 Yeah.

00:27:32.020 You have to make it a priority.

00:27:33.940 And what, what that means, what does that mean to make it a priority?

00:27:36.140 It's a very, something we should really kind of dwell on in the sense that people think

00:27:40.900 about, oh, I prioritize friendship, but what does that actually mean in practice?

00:27:44.540 One thing is showing up.

00:27:45.760 And because I wrote this book, I'm a very aware of showing up.

00:27:48.480 So I really work hard to show up.

00:27:50.020 Like if people invite me to a wedding, I'm like, I'm going, it's going to be uncomfortable

00:27:53.660 or difficult, or maybe I want to do something that day, but I'm going to go anyway.

00:27:56.420 And I tend to have a better time than I thought.

00:27:58.220 You know, people invite me to a going away party or retirement party or a baby shower.

00:28:01.980 I show up.

00:28:02.860 I show up because it sucks to like have a party and no one comes.

00:28:06.920 I mean, is there something more insulting to someone to have a party that no one shows up

00:28:10.320 to?

00:28:10.540 Like I'm going to be that person that shows up.

00:28:12.440 I show up to funerals because I figured that I would want someone to come to my funeral

00:28:16.760 if I was to pass away.

00:28:18.540 I show up to everything that I possibly can.

00:28:21.020 And I almost in some ways work with my wife because we almost joke with each other.

00:28:25.260 And my wife would be like, I don't really want to go.

00:28:27.520 And I'm like, come on, like, we're going to show up because showing up means that you

00:28:32.600 show your care and concern for other people.

00:28:34.960 But fellowship is showing up, right?

00:28:38.140 Friendship is showing up.

00:28:39.520 You cannot have the benefits of conversation, friendship, or fellowship without showing

00:28:44.080 up.

00:28:44.900 And so the key part of what it means to make it a priority is to show up for others when

00:28:48.540 invited and say yes, not to make excuses and go anyway.

00:28:52.980 And one of the things that I think is critical here is that the research evidence bears out

00:28:57.620 that this is good for you.

00:28:58.880 Like there's plenty of excellent research that says that people way overestimate how bad

00:29:04.360 of a time they're going to have at these things and underestimate what good things are going

00:29:08.160 to come from it.

00:29:09.020 So they are negatively forecasting something and it's not true.

00:29:12.480 It's a false belief that's not helping.

00:29:16.120 But the other thing they forget about is showing up once makes it easier to show up the next

00:29:19.640 time.

00:29:20.600 So one thing we talk about in this book is this idea of a social battery or basically

00:29:24.780 your social energy.

00:29:26.140 And what we know is the more familiar you are with people, circumstances, and conversations,

00:29:30.340 the less work it takes from you.

00:29:32.260 So every showing up is easier.

00:29:34.220 So in the case of your men's group, let's say that you're a person who shows up the

00:29:37.320 first time and you're a little uncomfortable.

00:29:39.560 You're worried that people don't think you have to say is good.

00:29:42.240 Maybe you haven't done the reading if you're, you know, having a Bible study group or something

00:29:45.420 like that, right?

00:29:46.460 Like, ah, I didn't do the reading.

00:29:47.780 Maybe I couldn't come.

00:29:49.160 And then you go and then, you know, you're feeling those anxieties.

00:29:52.420 They kind of work themselves out.

00:29:53.820 The next time you go, the research would suggest that you feel all of them less.

00:29:57.300 It's less work.

00:29:58.100 So what's happening is simultaneously as your brain and your social behavior adapts to a

00:30:03.200 new circumstance, it becomes less work.

00:30:05.280 What's also happening, which is great, is you're actually contributing an investment

00:30:09.160 of time into a relationship with other people.

00:30:12.060 So each time you show up is more time kind of put in the piggy bank of investment towards

00:30:16.080 friendship.

00:30:16.860 So what's fascinating about this is when you start thinking about it as I'm showing up over

00:30:21.400 and over again, makes it easier to keep showing up.

00:30:23.920 And there are additional benefits of, you know, camaraderie, friendship, and all those

00:30:28.060 things.

00:30:28.520 You begin to realize that this routine has this wonderful self-sustaining ability in the

00:30:34.340 same way that we talked about the negative feedback loops.

00:30:36.800 There's also a positive feedback loop, but you have to start with showing up.

00:30:41.140 Well, this idea of showing up, this goes back to that idea that I wanted to explore further.

00:30:46.500 We mentioned earlier where, okay, socializing actually reduces stress in your life.

00:30:51.680 Yeah.

00:30:51.820 But this idea of showing up and overcoming these barriers to socializing, it makes socializing

00:30:58.040 sound like a stressor.

00:31:00.000 Like it is stress.

00:31:00.640 That's why a lot of people avoid it.

00:31:01.840 It's like, well, there's all these obstacles.

00:31:03.580 People are terrible.

00:31:05.020 It takes a lot of effort to socialize.

00:31:07.820 So in that sense, socializing is a type of stressor.

00:31:11.480 It absolutely is.

00:31:12.420 And people are a major source of stress.

00:31:14.520 But there's also some fascinating research that suggests it's maybe good stress.

00:31:18.500 It's good stress for you.

00:31:19.500 I'll give you an example, which I find really fascinating.

00:31:22.100 There are several studies that have found that they count up questions of like, who are

00:31:25.880 your close friends or who are the family members you can count on?

00:31:28.980 And then survey researchers will ask another question, which is, so who is a stressor in

00:31:33.240 your life?

00:31:33.640 Who are family members that are really stressing you out and frustrating you?

00:31:36.300 And what's weird is, is that even the people who are frustrating or difficult are also people

00:31:41.560 who help abate loneliness or keep it at bay.

00:31:44.360 And what that means is, is that even when we're contributing to people who are difficult,

00:31:48.180 we are still feeling important to a community.

00:31:50.860 I've actually also started to rethink when people stir up stuff.

00:31:54.680 Like, I don't know if you have a family where there are members of family who are like, stir 1.00

00:31:58.740 something up, create conflict when it's not there or get mad about something.

00:32:03.000 In some ways, what's curious is now that I've kind of taken some time to step back from

00:32:07.220 it, I'm like, well, part of this is that they understand by engaging in this, they're

00:32:10.900 actually getting people to talk to them, to have something to talk about.

00:32:14.220 They have emotional drama to be able to resolve, and it makes them feel connected to part of

00:32:18.840 a broader system.

00:32:20.040 Now, it's not a particularly functional way of doing it, but that stress, interestingly,

00:32:25.040 also probably makes them feel valued and connected by the group because they're trying to work on

00:32:29.220 something in that family or in that dynamic that's struggling.

00:32:32.480 And we need people in those communities.

00:32:34.620 Like, in my mind, people like my mom who work really hard to keep everybody engaged with one

00:32:39.480 another, and it's a thankless task.

00:32:41.920 But if she wasn't doing it, my brothers and I probably wouldn't talk to each other as often

00:32:45.000 as we would otherwise.

00:32:46.560 So what's interesting is social stressors are not necessarily bad things in the long run.

00:32:50.780 They bring us into a community of connection.

00:32:53.220 But the other thing I think is important for us to keep in mind is that's also the good stuff.

00:32:58.080 Being important to other people means you also have to see them through difficult times.

00:33:02.900 One thing that Andy and I talk about in the book is if I'm a good listener to a close friend

00:33:08.160 and they're struggling, and I have had friends go through divorce, I've had friends go through

00:33:12.660 major losses in their life, I've had friends struggle with their parents, ill health, and

00:33:17.260 all of these things I imagine will continue to come as my life continues on.

00:33:21.660 It is work for me to listen on the phone.

00:33:25.320 It is work for me to show up for them and know that they're going to do 80% of the talking,

00:33:29.660 and it's mainly going to be about them.

00:33:31.380 It's work for me to check in on them and send a message, and sometimes send a message that

00:33:35.440 they won't even respond to because they're overwhelmed with the circumstances they're

00:33:39.180 in.

00:33:39.880 But guess what?

00:33:41.060 Every action of putting that work in is good for you as the giver, but it's even better

00:33:46.880 for them.

00:33:47.700 It's even better for them to feel cared for.

00:33:49.840 It's even better for them to feel like they have someone they can talk to, and you might

00:33:53.980 be the only person in their life that's reaching out like that.

00:33:56.880 When we begin to realize that our actions to put work into and the stress into these

00:34:02.080 relationships are actually things we do for other people, it reorients our thinking.

00:34:06.820 Rather than going, well, I've got to do this for myself.

00:34:08.980 I need to go to the gym so I'm not unhealthy.

00:34:12.800 We begin to go, I am engaging in social activity because it's good for other people, and it's giving

00:34:17.780 to other people to check in on them and make plans with them and care for them and listen

00:34:21.860 to them.

00:34:22.660 It reorients our thinking, I think, in a way that really helps us get out of our own sense

00:34:26.840 of interiority and towards another people, which is healthy.

00:34:31.220 No, I love this idea of socializing as a good stressor.

00:34:36.020 It made me think about how exercise is a stressor in our physical life.

00:34:40.180 And so when we exercise, we stress our bodies, but by stressing our bodies acutely, regularly,

00:34:47.160 we actually diminish chronic stress in our life.

00:34:51.400 Right.

00:34:51.800 Right.

00:34:52.100 And I think the same thing goes with socializing.

00:34:54.980 So if we think of socializing as a good stressor, if you get doses of it every single day, it

00:35:00.380 reduces our overall chronic stress and increases our overall well-being.

00:35:05.920 And like you said, it's something we can do for the good of others, but at the same time,

00:35:10.260 it does do a lot of good for us.

00:35:12.460 So it's a win-win.

00:35:14.140 Absolutely.

00:35:14.840 There's a quote that I have in the book that I really like.

00:35:17.520 Nick Cave, for those of you who may or may not know, Nick Cave was actually a member of a pretty

00:35:21.840 hardcore kind of post-punk band at the time, The Cave and the Bad Seeds.

00:35:26.680 And then there was one before that as well.

00:35:28.900 And he lost his teenage son to a tragic accident.

00:35:32.380 And he talks about the importance of communication when you're at your worst, like you feel, I

00:35:39.140 mean, I cannot imagine the grief of losing my own son.

00:35:42.140 And Cave says, it seems to be essential, even if just a corrective for the bad, unexpressed

00:35:48.440 ideas we hold in our heads to communicate with others.

00:35:52.220 And what I really love about that quote is that he's conveying this idea that it is healthy

00:35:57.480 for us to get out of our own heads and relieve our stressors that are internal by being stressed

00:36:04.580 socially.

00:36:05.560 So I'm stressed out about all kinds of stuff, my kids, my work, my situation, and whatever

00:36:11.500 it is, there are stressors in my life.

00:36:14.200 There's plenty of really good data and excellent research that says when we express those stressors

00:36:19.240 to others and share them and laugh about them and see them outside ourselves, they actually

00:36:23.840 have this wonderful restorative power to not only bring people together in sharing that

00:36:28.400 burden, but also you actually feel less stress in the long run.

00:36:32.160 So it's like the stress in the moment of caring for others is not only great for building a

00:36:36.400 relationship and a sense of belonging, which prevents long-term chronic stress and loneliness,

00:36:41.840 but the stress of thoughts unexpressed in our head that we're not sharing with others because

00:36:46.620 we're afraid of being vulnerable or afraid of admitting weakness also can be benefited by

00:36:52.740 communication, by talking about it.

00:36:54.820 And by talking about it, we can laugh about it and see perspective.

00:36:57.860 And another person says, oh yeah, I've gone through the same thing and it stinks and it's

00:37:01.340 not fair.

00:37:02.580 And then you go, oh, I'm not alone.

00:37:04.100 My ideas are not just corrosively sitting inside of me, but they're actually being expressed

00:37:09.040 in a way that another person can see me more clearly and I can see them.

00:37:13.440 And also the reason why I like this idea of socializing as a stressor and kind of relating

00:37:17.680 it to exercise as a physical stressor, it made me think of that theory of an evolutionary

00:37:23.760 biology of evolutionary mismatch.

00:37:26.880 Yeah.

00:37:27.020 So we, people talk about, it's so weird that people go to gyms and walk on these treadmills

00:37:30.920 and lift these weights.

00:37:31.820 Like, why do we do this?

00:37:32.640 Well, we live in a world where you don't have to do a lot of physical work to live.

00:37:38.300 You just sit at a desk all day.

00:37:39.480 So we need physical activity.

00:37:41.680 So we have to intentionally put our bodies under physical stress by going to these weird

00:37:47.220 buildings with these contraptions that look like torture devices to get that stress.

00:37:51.780 And it's the same thing with socializing.

00:37:53.220 We are evolved to socialize, to connect with the group.

00:37:56.560 We now live in an environment where there's a mismatch.

00:38:00.520 Opportunities to socialize aren't as automatic and built into modern life as they used to be.

00:38:06.740 You know, they're not going to happen by default.

00:38:08.240 So we have to intentionally inject social stress in our life the same way we intentionally inject

00:38:14.880 physical stress into our life.

00:38:17.560 Nah, I think that's really brilliantly said.

00:38:19.820 We're living in a time where it seems conceivable that you can be in a room, never interact with

00:38:25.020 another human being, have all of your food delivered to you as long as you're making

00:38:28.700 enough money to pay for it, never socialize even with another person.

00:38:32.680 And in the age of AI, have your therapist, your girlfriend, and your best friend all be

00:38:38.120 an AI program.

00:38:40.040 We have created an environment where we can take all of the friction of human society and

00:38:45.380 take it away and replace it with technological affordances of being delivered our food, our

00:38:50.320 comforts, even our social life.

00:38:52.340 So we are at a very huge evolutionary mismatch right now.

00:38:56.620 And it wasn't even all that long ago in the past where the concept of friendship was deeply

00:39:00.780 born by the fact that we are in the world making exchanges and building trust with one another.

00:39:05.700 So how can we socially exercise?

00:39:08.640 There are simple steps.

00:39:09.940 So if you think about the idea of first thing is this enough reflection of where you're at.

00:39:13.560 Where are you out in the continuum?

00:39:14.900 And are you a person who is have plenty of social life?

00:39:18.360 You're given out to everybody around you.

00:39:20.380 You're the person that people can call on.

00:39:22.140 You're very busy.

00:39:23.140 And in that case, the book probably is just in some ways just kind of patting you on the

00:39:26.520 back and saying, you know, good job.

00:39:28.000 We also do say in the book, you can be overtaxed.

00:39:30.340 You know, you can go too far.

00:39:31.340 You can get to the point where you're spread too thin and you need some time alone.

00:39:34.380 You need solitude also to balance that out.

00:39:36.160 Yeah, that's a good point.

00:39:37.480 So socializing is a good stressor, but like any stressor, it's on that U-shaped curve.

00:39:42.220 Exactly.

00:39:42.680 As you go up, it's good.

00:39:44.100 And then at a certain point, you have diminishing returns and actually is bad.

00:39:47.120 Same thing with physical exercise.

00:39:49.380 Moderate exercise is good, but if you go past a certain point, it's going to be detrimental.

00:39:53.540 Yeah.

00:39:53.760 And I gave a talk recently in Kansas City about social, and I was surrounded by, you know,

00:39:58.340 young women professionals who were social networking for professional reasons, but also

00:40:01.960 to give back to the community.

00:40:03.660 And I said to them, I'm like, I'm guessing I'm in a room of people who are such deeply

00:40:09.240 committed to their social life that they actually need to hear the solitude part of my talk.

00:40:13.600 So I'm going to start with the solitude part of my talk.

00:40:15.760 And I really want to reinforce for folks out there, I'm not saying if you are on the far

00:40:20.380 end and the reaches of being socially stressed to keep like doing what you're doing.

00:40:25.180 Nourished solitude is critical for restoring our sense of connection to one another, that

00:40:29.660 shutting off and letting go of our social responsibilities, particularly the social

00:40:33.600 responsibilities that come through our phone.

00:40:35.680 It's really important.

00:40:37.320 We need to find time to restore.

00:40:39.400 Restorative solitude, critical.

00:40:41.460 And that U-shaped curve you describe, exactly.

00:40:44.100 In the middle part of the curve, small acts of sociality are probably all you need.

00:40:48.660 For a person kind of in that middle part, you're not too social and you're not totally alone.

00:40:53.020 Things like talking to your neighbor, talking to a stranger, making small talk at work, making

00:40:58.800 time to make sure that you meet up with friends once a month, recognizing that small talk gets

00:41:03.900 such a bad rap that we have to reorganize our thinking about it and realize just checking

00:41:08.600 in with another person and showing them dignity and respect, whether that's your barista or

00:41:13.340 the person that works at your office or a neighbor is critical in building community.

00:41:17.840 So small steps, nothing big, some things once a day, like checking in with a stranger or

00:41:23.040 person in your world, something once a week, checking in with a close friend or with someone

00:41:27.440 that you want to really talk to.

00:41:28.740 And once a month, maybe that's like a longer sort of, if you have time for it and you should

00:41:33.360 make time for it, like a dinner together or, you know, out together to do something

00:41:37.020 fun, whatever it is that you like.

00:41:39.120 So you can make that work.

00:41:40.600 Yeah.

00:41:40.840 But it's really important to realize you have to know where you are to start.

00:41:44.220 So the big thing about breaking social inertia is knowing where you begin.

00:41:48.840 One thing you'd also do in the book, you talk about different ways we can communicate with

00:41:53.140 others and socialize with others.

00:41:54.440 And because we have the internet, it's just so many different ways.

00:41:57.920 Yeah.

00:41:58.160 You actually create a hierarchy on which ones are better than the others.

00:42:01.920 If you're going to reach out and connect with someone, walk us through that hierarchy.

00:42:04.900 What are some of the ways we can and which ways are better?

00:42:07.540 Yeah, I do a lot of research on social media, on texting, on phone calls.

00:42:12.860 It's one of my major areas of research.

00:42:15.080 And there's a hierarchy, essentially.

00:42:17.540 And when we think about what that hierarchy is, is I'm encouraging people to move up the

00:42:21.000 ladder of connection, is what I call it.

00:42:23.200 And at the very, very bottom of this ladder of connection is actually like scrolling mindlessly

00:42:27.680 on social media.

00:42:29.180 There are mixed studies.

00:42:31.620 I don't think the evidence is unequivocally that this is harmful for you.

00:42:34.220 But there's plenty of research that say, depending on the type of content that you're

00:42:37.340 consuming, it is, it can be very harmful in the sense like doom scrolling.

00:42:41.200 I also think that for certain demographics, like younger adults, seeing things that are

00:42:45.660 constantly making them feel that they're being left out, FOMO, or, you know, they're not

00:42:50.300 as good or they're not as accomplished or not as successful as other people.

00:42:53.100 Those are all pretty bad for you.

00:42:54.720 And if you can think about ways to minimize the amount of time you're doing those things,

00:42:58.140 it's good.

00:42:59.000 So that one is like not more or less.

00:43:01.660 The next level up from that is texting.

00:43:05.200 Texting is actually, I think, kind of an unsung hero of connection.

00:43:08.480 There's a lot of fun studies that have been done recently that finds that even people you

00:43:11.800 haven't talked to for a while appreciate a text that just says, hey, I'm thinking of

00:43:15.100 you.

00:43:15.700 People don't use email anymore, but if you are of the demographic and also the age group

00:43:20.900 where email is comfortable, send one of those.

00:43:23.240 One step up from texting would probably be a phone call or video chat, scheduling a time

00:43:28.040 to check in, have a longer conversation, back and forth, whatever.

00:43:32.320 Also, a lot of young adults, interestingly, are more adept at using video chat just to

00:43:37.000 hang out together.

00:43:38.040 So they just leave it on and then they go about what they're doing.

00:43:40.980 People, long distance relationships do that as well.

00:43:43.640 And then the top of that hierarchy is face-to-face communication.

00:43:46.000 So if you are a person who finds themselves just lacking for time to do any of these things,

00:43:52.880 all I'm asking is one step higher.

00:43:54.800 Maybe if you're pretty good at keeping in touch on text and you have group chats going

00:43:58.520 on with lots of folks, you can have one you want to check in with and call in the next

00:44:04.100 week, make an appointment to call them.

00:44:05.940 That's the only way I keep in touch with my friends, by the way, is by an appointment.

00:44:09.280 So it's not like I'm just seeing if my friend Craig's going to pick up the phone.

00:44:13.080 I know he's a busy guy with kids.

00:44:14.560 We make it time to do that.

00:44:16.580 So I'm just asking one step up, one step up at a time, and to recognize that any step

00:44:22.220 up actually shows empirical evidence to be beneficial.

00:44:26.920 I thought it was interesting, the research about the difference between video calls and

00:44:31.280 just regular phone calls.

00:44:32.620 Yeah, that one's interesting too, because I think that's an evolving norm.

00:44:35.520 Some stuff suggests that video chat actually makes you feel a little more lonely because

00:44:38.840 it actually makes you feel perhaps that you're missing that person more when you see them.

00:44:43.740 And some people really love talking on the phone.

00:44:47.160 I would include myself as one of them.

00:44:48.680 The sound of another person in my head makes me feel so close and connected to them.

00:44:52.740 But when I'm on video chat, I get distracted and confused, and I feel like I need to be

00:44:56.480 more aware of my facial behaviors, which makes me feel weird.

00:45:00.440 So I think a jury is still out.

00:45:03.620 A lot of people are stuck on video chat all day long at work, which I think also degrades

00:45:08.040 its sense of efficacy.

00:45:09.220 But young adults have taught me that they seem to really get it, that video chat's a

00:45:13.820 good opportunity to just kind of have someone in your room while you're doing other things.

00:45:17.500 It might be a generational thing.

00:45:18.820 I don't like video chat.

00:45:19.940 Me neither.

00:45:20.340 And it's a reason why on the podcast, I don't do video.

00:45:23.060 I just like to do audio only.

00:45:25.280 Hey, can I give you a shout out for that?

00:45:26.380 Thank you.

00:45:27.300 It's a lot less work on my part.

00:45:29.880 I think I can watch my words a lot more closely and really think about what you're saying.

00:45:34.660 But if I'm watching the interaction, I'm way too attentive to what I'm doing.

00:45:38.180 Yeah, and you don't have to worry about the lighting or what your hair looks like.

00:45:42.420 I'm having a good hair day though, Brett, so I appreciate you asking.

00:45:44.540 Okay, well, maybe we'll get a picture of what you look like and post it up.

00:45:49.000 The tricky thing about socializing is it requires other people.

00:45:52.800 Yes.

00:45:53.260 And so it's a collective action problem.

00:45:55.480 So if you want to socialize, that's great.

00:45:57.260 But if the other person doesn't, or there's no one else to socialize with,

00:46:00.460 well, then you're kind of out of luck.

00:46:02.580 It's like wanting to play catch and there's no one to play catch with.

00:46:04.880 That's what a conversation is.

00:46:06.060 So what do we do about that?

00:46:08.680 Because that collective action problem, it's structural.

00:46:11.260 Like the way our time is scheduled up, how our space is arranged.

00:46:14.760 What can we do to improve the structure of our lives so that socializing is maybe a bit easier,

00:46:22.940 can be completely easy or completely frictionless?

00:46:25.140 I think the effort is part of what makes it good for us.

00:46:27.720 But how can we approach it to facilitate it being a bigger part of our lives?

00:46:32.060 Yeah.

00:46:33.260 You know, one of my good friends from high school, she had this phrase, she went to social

00:46:37.620 work and she talked about the idea that you need to basically follow the weaker impulse.

00:46:42.060 And I love that phrase because it gives you kind of a sense in which that how you need

00:46:46.020 to be alert to the tendencies to not do this stuff.

00:46:49.700 And what I mean by following the weaker impulse when it comes to being social is you had a hard

00:46:53.860 day.

00:46:54.400 There's a social event that you haven't been planning for a while.

00:46:56.480 You're like, oh, I don't want to go.

00:46:57.740 You need to follow the weaker impulse, which says it's a good thing to go.

00:47:02.080 Another way, encourage the people in your life to be social.

00:47:05.180 Maybe that's your partner.

00:47:06.260 Maybe that's your kids.

00:47:07.760 Encourage the people around you to set a norm and an expectation that being social is something

00:47:12.140 that's worth fighting for and worth doing.

00:47:14.540 I think structurally and socially, this is a very, very hard problem.

00:47:18.460 You know, Robert Putnam, who I've mentioned before, has been counseling every president since

00:47:21.760 Bill Clinton about how to build social interactions and build social community.

00:47:25.500 And they have not been able to reverse the trend.

00:47:28.040 I don't know how our trends around work can be fixed.

00:47:31.180 But some of this is about acknowledging that we are also engaging in trends that we have

00:47:34.560 probably more control of than we perceive.

00:47:36.360 And I think the big one is how we choose to use our leisure time around media entertainment.

00:47:40.940 I think we have to reorganize the way that we think about what's valuable about consuming

00:47:44.500 media and say that maybe this is really not the thing that needs to be occupying my time

00:47:49.020 the whole time.

00:47:50.100 And if I make an exception by saying this night of the week, I'm going to reserve for catching

00:47:53.860 up with a friend or otherwise, it's a worthwhile endeavor to do.

00:47:57.000 So what's hard is I wish for a world in which we could return to a sense of social obligation

00:48:02.040 to one another.

00:48:03.000 I wish for a world in which that it became more normative, that people would reach out,

00:48:07.180 care for the people, especially those who are needed and isolated.

00:48:10.340 But the biggest thing that I got to recommend is the only change that I think you really have

00:48:13.700 control over is to recognize that making a priority in your life means showing up, doing

00:48:18.220 so consistently, and, you know, taking your knocks when people can't be there for you.

00:48:22.440 People cancel on you, you forgive them, and you try again.

00:48:25.540 People don't text you back, it's okay.

00:48:27.620 It doesn't mean the text didn't matter.

00:48:29.180 You chit chat with the bagger at the grocery store, and that 16-year-old, you know, rolls

00:48:34.460 their eyes at you because you're some middle-aged white dude telling them this or that.

00:48:38.300 It's okay.

00:48:39.260 Like, I take my knocks.

00:48:40.800 I recognize that every social interaction is not going to be a great one.

00:48:45.000 But the fact that I'm trying in my world and my community, I think makes me a person

00:48:49.780 who's trying to build a healthier biome to live in for everyone.

00:48:51.920 Yeah, so exercise your agency to change the environment around you.

00:48:55.780 You got it.

00:48:56.220 Yeah.

00:48:56.520 And I think the idea is if you start making it a priority in your life, hosting parties,

00:49:01.000 hosting even just small get-togethers with your friends, reaching out, the idea is that

00:49:05.020 it can act as a social contagion.

00:49:07.240 People are like, oh, wow, this guy's having a get-together where he just has, you know,

00:49:10.980 beers and sodas, and it's nothing really big, but I had a really good time.

00:49:14.100 Maybe I could do that.

00:49:15.760 Yep.

00:49:15.980 And I think what's curious about this is that we also know from other research on social

00:49:20.200 norms and contagion is this is how it happens.

00:49:22.320 People begin to understand that this is something that can be done and they see pathways to doing

00:49:26.440 it.

00:49:26.720 Any major social change happens because enough people have modeled it and demonstrated how

00:49:31.020 it works to make it work again.

00:49:32.760 And I'm hopeful.

00:49:33.960 I mean, I think there's a lot of reason to be hopeful.

00:49:35.500 So if listeners were to take one small action this week to build up their own social biome

00:49:41.220 and the social biome around them, what would you recommend?

00:49:45.740 Yeah, I would say make a plan with somebody that you love, you know, if that's your romantic

00:49:50.640 partner, that's your best friend, if that's your family member or brother or sister, make

00:49:55.520 a plan to talk to them, you know, make a plan to have lunch, make a plan to check in, make

00:49:59.600 a plan to make a phone call, put it on your calendar and do it.

00:50:01.920 And even if you're just listening right now, send that text, say, hey, we haven't caught

00:50:06.200 up for a while.

00:50:06.720 Would you like to get together or we have this thing coming up or when are you available

00:50:09.740 to have lunch again?

00:50:11.160 Do it while you're listening to this conversation that Brett and I are having and then keep being

00:50:16.300 persistent.

00:50:17.040 If that person says, oh, yeah, definitely, but I need to get back to you, get back to

00:50:21.080 them.

00:50:22.320 Follow up, keep working at it.

00:50:24.140 And once you have that opportunity to connect with them, the best piece of advice is to say,

00:50:28.780 let's do it again and not just do it out of politeness, but actually put it on the calendar

00:50:32.680 to do it again.

00:50:34.080 And once you start doing it, it becomes easier and easier.

00:50:37.000 It's true.

00:50:37.460 After I read this book, I told you this in the email that I sent you before this interview.

00:50:41.940 It inspired me.

00:50:42.980 I set up a ruck with some guys here in town.

00:50:46.320 Very cool.

00:50:46.700 Saturday morning, eight o'clock, eat some donuts along the way.

00:50:49.880 That's awesome.

00:50:50.500 And it was easy.

00:50:51.400 I could have done this so many times, but you know, that social inertia, but looks like a

00:50:56.280 lot of guys are going to show up and it should be fun.

00:50:58.840 Yeah.

00:50:59.000 And I would also say, you know, if not all of them show up, do it anyway.

00:51:02.620 Yeah, do it anyway.

00:51:03.280 Do it again.

00:51:04.840 And maybe new people will show up next time because they weren't available this time.

00:51:07.900 Yeah.

00:51:08.200 I think we're too quick to assume that social failure means it's not worth doing.

00:51:11.560 And that's just not the case.

00:51:12.960 Well, Jeffrey, this has been a great conversation.

00:51:14.660 Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?

00:51:17.240 Absolutely.

00:51:17.920 So I run the Relationships and Technology Lab here at the University of Kansas and my research

00:51:21.860 is posted there, but also on LinkedIn.

00:51:23.400 I'm really active on posting about research-related findings on LinkedIn.

00:51:27.960 The social biome specifically is something I promote on Instagram and I'm Jeffrey Hall,

00:51:32.900 PhD at Instagram.

00:51:34.960 So those two kind of places are in which people can kind of see updates on what my work is

00:51:38.960 being doing.

00:51:39.740 So I'd love to have you there too.

00:51:41.480 Fantastic.

00:51:41.880 Well, Jeffrey Hall, thanks for your time.

00:51:42.880 It's been a pleasure.

00:51:43.880 Hey, thank you.

00:51:46.040 My guest here is Jeffrey Hall.

00:51:47.320 He's the co-author of the book, The Social Biome.

00:51:49.500 It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.

00:51:52.020 Make sure to check out our show notes at awim.is slash social stress.

00:51:55.260 You can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.

00:52:05.120 Well, that wraps up another edition of the AWIM podcast.

00:52:07.840 Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com where you can find our podcast archives.

00:52:11.460 And check out our new newsletter.

00:52:12.660 It's called Dying Breed. 0.98

00:52:13.820 You can sign up at dyingbreed.net.

00:52:15.680 It's a great way to support the show directly.

00:52:17.800 As always, thank you for the continued support.

00:52:19.560 Until next time, it's Brett McKay.

00:52:20.680 Remind you to not listen to the AWIM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.

00:52:23.780 Thank you.

00:52:41.100 Thank you.

00:52:41.680 Thank you.

00:52:41.740 Thank you.

00:52:42.680 Thank you.

The Art of Manliness - September 30, 2025

Why You Need the Good Stress of Socializing

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