Why You Need the Good Stress of Socializing
Episode Stats
Summary
In this episode, Dr. Jeffrey Hall joins me to discuss why relationships are harder to build in the modern world, how our adolescent approach to making friends needs to evolve, and why we must intentionally exercise our social muscles in a world where they are otherwise atrophied.
Transcript
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Brett McKay here, and welcome to another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast.
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You may have heard of hormesis, the idea that intentionally embracing small stressors
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activates the body's repair and defense systems, building resilience, improving how the body
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and even the microbiome function, and ultimately protecting against the harms of chronic stress.
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We typically think of these hormetic stressors in terms of things like exercising, taking
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ice baths, sitting in a sauna, and ingesting certain plant compounds, but you ought to
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As my guest today explains, while we tend to avoid socializing as we do all stressors,
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even the good ones, it's something that can strengthen our health, resilience, immunity,
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Jeffrey Hall, professor of communication studies and co-author of The Social Biome, How Everyday
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Communication Connects and Shapes Us, joins me to discuss why relationships are harder
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to build in the modern world, how our adolescent approach to making friends needs to evolve,
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and why we must intentionally exercise our social muscles in a world where they're otherwise
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After the show's over, check out our show notes at awim.is slash social stress.
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All right, Jeffrey Hall, welcome back to the show.
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So you research human relationships from friendships to romantic relationships.
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We had you on the podcast back in 2022 to talk about your research on how long it takes
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to make a new friend, and the short answer is longer than you think, and we'll let people
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listen to that episode to get the details on it.
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You got a new book out called The Social Biome that you co-authored.
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I always like our conversations, and it's an honor to be a multiple guest appearance.
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Yeah, Andy and I came up with this idea of the social biome back in about 2019, so pre-pandemic,
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and the reason that we started thinking about it is that people are very familiar with this
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idea of a gut microbiome, and the idea is that there's this interdependent system within your
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guts that make the ability to digest food easier or harder.
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It gets destroyed if you take antibiotics, but it affects everything from your mood to your
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Even your brain health is affected by your gut microbiome.
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Microbiome also happens when we touch people, right?
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Well, Andy and I thought, well, there's also a social biome.
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It's this interdependent system of relationships, social interactions that we have with one
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We live in it, but we also are dependent on other people within it.
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So how people treat us, whether people accept us, whether people introduce their own germs,
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if you will, like negativity or conflict, or whether they're actually increasing things
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And what we know from social interaction research is that these things make a big difference
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in mortality, morbidity, just like your gut microbiome makes a difference in your health
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Yeah, I'm sure people have heard about the health benefits of a social life, but for those
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who aren't familiar, can you just recap the benefits of having a robust, healthy social
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Yeah, the thing that's crazy about this is this is something that's been building for about
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Some of the earliest studies on these things began to say, well, let's follow up with folks
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that we surveyed, you know, 10, 15, 20, 30 years ago and see whether they live longer
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or they live shorter lives, whether they had, you know, some disease or otherwise.
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And what they found was one of the most consistent predictors was whether or not people had strong
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social relationships, whether they had frequent social interactions, whether or not they could
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say, I have more quality friends or quality romantic partner relationships.
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So quality, frequency, and also social interaction all ended up being these important predictors.
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And what's fascinating is you also look at like the famous Harvard men's study and other
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It finds that even if you change in the middle of your life, you can make it better later.
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So let's say that you are, you know, in your 20s and 30s, very career focused, and you're
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really not making time for building relationships with other people and you move around a lot.
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But if you change in your 40s and 50s, you can actually live a longer, healthier life
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So what's fascinating about these different longitudinal studies is that it doesn't really
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matter when you start investing in your relationships and other people.
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It's always beneficial, at least seems to be always beneficial to your health, your well-being,
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your sense of purpose and meaning, and of course, whether or not you are likely to die earlier.
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Yeah, that's the interesting thing is the longevity research on social relationships, how there's
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Yeah, there are a couple of processes that people think about are probably why.
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The one that Andy and I spent some time exploring, because it's so interesting, is has this idea
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So I was talking to a good friend of mine in California, and she and I were talking about
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We've been friends for a long time, and we're like, yeah, you know, I exercise pretty regularly.
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But the thing that my doctor is always telling me is, you've got to reduce your stress.
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And I think that we all kind of have this intuitive sense that when we feel relaxed,
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when we feel truly at peace with ourselves or accepted, we can feel our stress levels go down.
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I don't know about you, but, you know, when I hang out with a friend over lunch or catch
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over drinks or have them over to my home or talk to them on the phone, I feel like my body
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almost like unwinding, you know, relaxing, feeling safe.
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So researchers believe that one of the most important processes of feeling close, connected,
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and meaningful to other people is that it actually reduces our overall stress response.
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And what we also know about that is our body cannot marshal the resources that it needs to
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fight off infection unless that it is able to kind of put those sort of stressors away.
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So there's a famous study that actually found that people who had better social connections
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and relationships were people who were also able to fight off a virus that the researchers
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injected into participants to find out how sick they got.
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So folks who were really social and had really good relationships were able to fight off sickness
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So one of the main reasons we think that it actually contributes to longevity is that over
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your whole life, when you have meaningful relationships, people you can count on,
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close connections with others, you're basically living in a de-stressed environment,
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a lot more frequently than you would if you had nobody.
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And we know that loneliness is extremely stressful for the people who endure it.
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I want to go back to this idea of stress because, okay, you're saying here that socializing
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But then later on in the book, you talk about how socializing is a stressor.
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We're going to return to that because I think that's interesting.
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There's a lot of cool metaphors that we can extract from that.
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But before we do, we talk about all these great health benefits, mental wellness benefits of
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regularly socializing with other people and avoiding loneliness.
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There's so many articles about the loneliness crisis, the loneliness epidemic, and you shouldn't
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Nonetheless, people are still hesitant to socialize.
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Andy and I, one of the things we really shot for when we were writing this book is to be
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sympathetic rather than to be sort of like a school marm shaking your finger and telling
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other people how to behave like, you know, you really should be more social for your own
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What we really wanted to do is try to explain, well, why aren't we?
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And people have very good reasons for not being social.
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So I think there are structural reasons, there are personal reasons, and then there are sort of
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One of the strongest negative associations with time spent socializing is work.
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We are in a curious economy right now in part, not like 2025, but I mean in modern history,
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where people in the top income brackets in the United States who don't have to keep working work
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People who are professionals and working harder work even more hours.
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We also have the emergence of gig economies where people are basically on call all the time
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to try to make money to Uber somebody around or to DoorDash.
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We're in an environment in which we are constantly working in order to sort of make time to be able
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All of that is creeping into our ability to be social.
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And there's really good evidence that the more that we're working, the harder that we're trying
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to make ends meet, the less time we have for being social.
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The other structural reason I think is really important is we don't have a lot of third spaces,
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which are basically these places where we feel comfortable just gathering together and being
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You know, Robert Putnam did amazing work all the way back to 2000, year 2000, when he released
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And at that time, it was demise of bowling leagues, of rotary clubs, of Elks clubs, and all these kind
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Since that point, it's been the decline of churches and synagogues and places of worship
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where people aren't showing up or not attending weekly, although in the last two or three years
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we've had an uptick, which is good news for socialization.
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So there are these structural changes that are happening around work, around third spaces,
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or around kind of, you know, organized spaces for being social that are in decline.
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And one of the things that Andy and I really wanted to communicate a message on here is,
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We have a need to belong that pushes us towards continuing to work at those relationships,
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And I think what people find, and lots of researchers confirm this, is we imagine worse
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outcomes from relational mistakes or things that we feel hurt about or things we think
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we screwed up, like we're boring or we didn't make a good impression or we said something
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We exaggerate those things in a way that make us feel like we can't do it.
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We don't want to socialize anymore because it's just not enough.
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So part of it is because people are disappointing, we don't want to continue to work at having
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our relationships with people because we're like, why bother?
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You know, it's just never going to get any closer or this person really stunk and I don't
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But the last reason it's so difficult is routine.
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One thing that's been very healthy in my lifetime is I've seen people have a lot more consciousness
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about the importance of a good health routine around exercise.
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I think I always knew it growing up, but I feel like people are even treating some exercise
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Like they just really truly believe that this set of exercise routines that they have are
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And there's a very good reason to think that it will.
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People are only recently waking up to the idea of having a good social routine.
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One reporter asked me, do you think there's been a change of heart about whether or not
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people actually need to prioritize spending time with friends or create a routine about being
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I think our current way of thinking about it is being social is the very last thing we're
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going to do if we have time for it, because we've got to make time for exercise.
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And of course, I think a lot of it is we want to make time for the things which are hedonistically
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pleasurable in the moment, but do nothing for us socially, which is I need to finish that
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next Netflix series so I can be up on, you know, the new episodes that I love.
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So there's a sense in which of accomplishment and access to easy media is making it even
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harder for us to realize that those routines are worth fighting for.
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We have to find ways to make social life be part of our routines, and people generally
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Speaking to that idea of the decline of socializing as a routine, one of the things that I'm always
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struck by when I read biographies of individuals who lived in the first half of the 20th century
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Like every night they were either at a dinner party or hosting the dinner party or they're
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playing bridge or they had, it was like, it was like every single night.
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And I think about, I don't know if I could do that, but for them, it was a given.
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That's just what you, you were expected to do that.
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I mean, when I grew up, my parents hosted bridge events in our basement, and I remember
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My dad told me this great story, it was when he was a bachelor for the first time, and this
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No, this would have been in the late 60s, sorry.
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That he, first thing he wanted to do was set up a bar at his apartment, because that's
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You had friends over to entertain them, so that drinking wasn't something you did alone.
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It was, you had to have it so that you could entertain.
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I did actually a research project recently that found that how many nights a week that
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people are going out to visit their friends has gone down a lot.
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But what's even more kind of surprising is when people idealize what a good night would
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So in the past, when you ask them that question, what's an ideal night?
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A lot of people say, oh, time with friends, out doing interesting things, or spending time
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together with people who I'm really enjoying, or a visit from someone who I care about, or
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Now, when I did the survey just last year, what I found people were saying is, spending
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time alone, quietly in a room, watching my favorite program, and relaxing in pajamas.
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Like, there was this glorification of a feeling in which detachment is actually pleasurable.
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And so what's curious is that we've had an expectation shift that's so dramatic, not just,
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I think, from the early 1900s, which is absolutely true, but even from the 1950s, the 1960s,
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Like, it's even palpable if you look at just how people responded to these survey questions
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I mean, you see it sort of anecdotally when people tweet things or Instagram things.
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They talk about, well, I'm just so happy that people canceled the plans at the last
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minute, because now I don't have to do that thing, you know?
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Like, people, the expectation is, I just want to be by myself, not be around other people.
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And you call this world we're living in now, the age of interiority.
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The age of interiority idea came up a while ago.
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I got a report for the Wall Street Journal on this topic of declining time spending being
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And that it was, this time decline was not just in the United States.
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It happened in UK data, data from Australia, and other less precise measurement throughout
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the global north, but also places like Japan, and so industrialized world in general.
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And what's interesting about this is this decline of sociality happens, it seems, over
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longer periods of time in kind of a pendulum swing.
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So on one side of the pendulum is this idea that being alone is something to be glorified.
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So we can see this in the Romantic era where people are like, I'm wandering lonely like
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a cloud, or to move away from civilization is the only way to find oneself.
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And the monastery, or the monk, or the aesthetic, who was completely in denial of social contact,
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like almost to a hermit-like status, these people were glorified as being either closer
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to being divine, which kind of like was the contemporary understanding of what it meant
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to be enlightened, or maybe your full self, right?
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And then there were other periods of time, if you look at the discourse and the time,
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it was like people who are on the margins of society are outcasts.
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People who are seeking their own time are selfish, that we are obliged to one another,
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and that obligation to one another carries incredible benefits in terms of democracy,
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and discourse, and camaraderie, and a sense of purpose and meaning, or community.
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Or I think people of faith talk about this as like brotherhood, or a sense of, you know,
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What's interesting is when that pendulum swings back and forth, people seem to turn either
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towards or away from the idea of being solitary is a good thing.
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The pendulum has swung towards, you know, Putnam forecasted it in his bowling alone.
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You know, you offer that example of people having like top Google searches, like how do
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I get out of plans, or how do I stop showing up?
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But we also see that at my daughter's, one of my favorite places, her favorite place is
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And I took a picture of socks that say, friends don't make friends hang out.
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It's everywhere is the sense that not interacting with others is something to be celebrated.
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And I think when we think about this, in one way, this normalization of being alone
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and isolated is something that I see everywhere throughout our media and our representations
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But in another way, it's making sense of something.
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We're collectively trying to come to terms with the fact that we don't have a social
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We need a solution that makes us feel soothed and comforted by the fact that this is the
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And the age of interiority is also basically making sense of a situation we don't like,
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It's okay to spend more time away from others because other people suck and friends don't
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So we're engaging in some ex post facto reasoning, some after the fact reasoning, because we find
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And instead of facing that fact and maybe letting ourselves be a little sad or disturbed by that
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So the reason why things are so hard or people have social inertia to socialize, the structural
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aspect of it, we're working more, our work schedules are completely different.
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It's not like, you know, 50 years ago where everyone nine to five, then, you know, everyone's
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I think related to that, the structural aspect too, I've noticed as a parent with, you know,
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preteen and teenagers, kids are just doing all sorts of different stuff.
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You know, it used to be maybe like 60 years ago, you either did Boy Scouts and you did
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like the little league in your town and that was it.
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Now it's, you know, your kids can be involved in volleyball and dance and student council.
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And so you have parents who are trying to shuffle their kids to these different things.
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And because these things are all out of sync, like parents can't get together and hang out
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And I'll point out something that's, I will tell you is a bright spot in the data.
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So the bright spot in the data is that people who are families who are married with children
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are spending as much or more time at home with their kids in social time.
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We know that strong bonds with children are good for children.
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We know that strong bonds with children are good for parents.
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And we see a particular uptick, and I would say this for your listeners out there, for
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It looks like married men with children are spending more time with their kids than they
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You don't often hear good news about men and boys.
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And I think this is something that's really great.
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You know, fathers are more invested in the context of a married relationship with their
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And I think that what's important about that is where does that time come from, though?
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And you're alluding to the idea is that time has to come from maybe a time parents went
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And that's what cracks me up when I think about it.
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I'm like, well, where was I when my parents were down in the basement playing cards with
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Or when my parents did stuff, did they expect to be entertaining me?
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We're in this kind of curious time where I think a lot of parents, especially ones who
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are upper class or upper class aspiring, are trying to cultivate this sort of perfect experience
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for their kids because they're concerned in a broader sense their kid won't have every
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opportunity that they need to be successful to get into college or career wise because
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they have all this broader sense of social anxiety or an economic anxiety.
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And frankly, the age of AI and the kind of conversations like pretty soon we won't even,
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you know, have any jobs because AI will take all of them does not help.
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As a parent of, you know, a 15 year old and a 12 year old, I'm like, God, I have no clue
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So it makes you feel more anxious that you need to be making sure your kid is studying
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As a consequence, this cultivation of childhood has the positive consequences of parents spending
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But as the negative consequences of us trying to micromanage a perfect experience, which
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means parents aren't spending time with each other.
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They feel like they can't prioritize their own time one on one with their own friends, because
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in some ways, that's really not a good, you know, long term economic decision for their
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So one of the pieces of advice that I give a lot in these things is couples should support
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each other having friends that are not couple friends that are individual friends.
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So, you know, if you are in any kind of marriage or long term relationship, you should encourage
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your partner to have friends and go spend time with their friends.
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And that may seem obvious, but there's actually a lot of counter discourse that say, you know,
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don't go out with your friends because maybe they think that their friends are going to
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have a bad influence on them in early parts of the relationship, or you're not spending
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enough time with your own kids if you're married with children, or you just, you shouldn't
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But what's interesting is, is there's lots of good research that says a happier marriage
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is also one where couples, each member of that partnership has friends.
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Whenever I hang out with my friends, I just show up better with my family.
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Yeah, and it also shows that you're being cared for and nourished by other folks.
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As a person who actually studies friendship a lot, I've thought very deeply about the
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idea that one person can't provide everything for you.
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You need a community of people to help you feel a fully robust and rich person.
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And frankly, my wife is wonderful, but my friends provide different advice.
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They're willing to talk about NBA basketball with me.
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They're willing to kind of shoot the shit about politics in a way that my wife and I
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And I think all of those things make me better in my relationship and more able to have a
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long-term meaningful relationship with my partner.
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So barriers to socializing, the structural aspect, work, intensive parenting.
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You know, people let you down and disappoint you.
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And then the third one, third obstacle is just routines of socializing.
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There's no longer the expectation that you socialize regularly.
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What's interesting though, so socializing is hard.
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As you said, you're trying to be very sympathetic and letting people know, yes, yes, it's good
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But what's interesting, I still think a lot of people have the expectation that socializing
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should be easy, even though there's all these obstacles.
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How do you think that mismatch between expectation and reality also gets in the way of socializing?
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And I am very sympathetic to this because I have a group of high school friends that we
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try to get together and it is really hard to schedule something.
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Some of us work jobs that have to commute a lot.
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Some people have busy travel schedules or family schedules.
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So it's legitimately difficult to get people together.
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Part of the reason that we have this weird expectation that should be easy though, I think
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comes from the fact that during developmental times in our life where we found the most friends,
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which tend to happen during elementary school to high school period.
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And then for some people who go to college, that's also an important time as well.
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During all of those times, the structure created time.
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I went to a high school that I knew a lot of the folks that went to high school with
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me from middle school and some of them from elementary school.
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I lived within driving distance of most of them as most people who go to high school in
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I did activities with them during the day, such as we took similar classes, but I also
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did activities with them after the day was over.
00:23:47.840
The creation of a school system necessitated lots and lots of my time being spent with
00:23:58.260
So when I say that those times your life were easier to make friends, that's just fact.
00:24:02.220
But it's fact because it was necessary to spend time together in order to do any of those
00:24:07.800
What's interesting is if you think about or you disaggregate what school does and put that
00:24:15.060
That would mean you would see people during the day, you would pick activities you enjoy
00:24:21.060
You would also date from that same group of people and be single, which is usually characteristic
00:24:24.860
not a lot of high school students have a partner.
00:24:27.040
What that means, though, is you're open to the possibility of new relationships.
00:24:31.660
As we mature and move into emerging adulthood, which is roughly between 22 and 30, and then later
00:24:37.620
in a middle age adulthood, what we start doing is closing off all of those avenues.
00:24:41.740
We say, I'm now living with a partner, so I'm not going to go out without her.
00:24:45.060
We say, now I have children, so I can't go out because I need to be a good parent.
00:24:49.760
We say, well, I have to work extra hours because I'm committed to this.
00:24:53.220
All of those foreclosures of our time and openness to making friends makes it harder
00:25:00.220
But we don't remember that school was a time in which you had tons of time, tons of people
00:25:05.740
available to be made friends with, lots of activities to do together.
00:25:10.840
Like you were in a time of your life where it was developmentally important to be connected
00:25:16.520
with other people that were not people from your family of origin.
00:25:19.840
What happens in later life is your developmental period focuses on new family, new connections
00:25:28.160
So what's interesting is, is that people don't see the developmental changes.
00:25:32.520
And frankly, academics like myself do a very bad job of talking about adult development.
00:25:40.960
But essentially that means is people don't even understand the reason it was so easy in
00:25:44.780
the past was the circumstances created that ease and we just can't see it.
00:25:49.120
So when we're young, we're brought together with peers by default.
00:25:59.000
But then we carry that expectation over into adulthood, even though we're in a very different
00:26:06.820
And that old pattern from our youth where we don't have to be intentional doesn't work
00:26:13.760
We're going to take a quick break for your words from our sponsors.
00:26:20.180
I've seen this mismatch of expectation and reality when it comes to socializing, making
00:26:27.980
And it's frustrating for me, people's kind of inflated, inflated expectations.
00:26:34.020
So, you know, I was in charge of the men's group in our church, I think about 10 years
00:26:38.560
And a common complaint was there's not enough fellowship.
00:26:42.560
And so, okay, well, let's do something about it.
00:26:45.740
We plan some events and we would do a lot to communicate.
00:26:53.820
And then the day of the event would show up and it would just be the leaders there.
00:27:00.220
And then, so you're like, oh, hey, we had this event, you know, guys, people couldn't
00:27:04.380
And people, you know, the common excuses were like, oh, I was just busy or I was just
00:27:11.060
And well, okay, we'll plan another event and like no one to show up.
00:27:16.500
And you're like, okay, guys, we're, we're trying to create this for you, but it's going to
00:27:28.260
And if you don't, then you're not going to have that thing you want.
00:27:33.940
And what, what that means, what does that mean to make it a priority?
00:27:36.140
It's a very, something we should really kind of dwell on in the sense that people think
00:27:40.900
about, oh, I prioritize friendship, but what does that actually mean in practice?
00:27:45.760
And because I wrote this book, I'm a very aware of showing up.
00:27:50.020
Like if people invite me to a wedding, I'm like, I'm going, it's going to be uncomfortable
00:27:53.660
or difficult, or maybe I want to do something that day, but I'm going to go anyway.
00:27:56.420
And I tend to have a better time than I thought.
00:27:58.220
You know, people invite me to a going away party or retirement party or a baby shower.
00:28:02.860
I show up because it sucks to like have a party and no one comes.
00:28:06.920
I mean, is there something more insulting to someone to have a party that no one shows up
00:28:10.540
Like I'm going to be that person that shows up.
00:28:12.440
I show up to funerals because I figured that I would want someone to come to my funeral
00:28:21.020
And I almost in some ways work with my wife because we almost joke with each other.
00:28:25.260
And my wife would be like, I don't really want to go.
00:28:27.520
And I'm like, come on, like, we're going to show up because showing up means that you
00:28:39.520
You cannot have the benefits of conversation, friendship, or fellowship without showing
00:28:44.900
And so the key part of what it means to make it a priority is to show up for others when
00:28:48.540
invited and say yes, not to make excuses and go anyway.
00:28:52.980
And one of the things that I think is critical here is that the research evidence bears out
00:28:58.880
Like there's plenty of excellent research that says that people way overestimate how bad
00:29:04.360
of a time they're going to have at these things and underestimate what good things are going
00:29:09.020
So they are negatively forecasting something and it's not true.
00:29:16.120
But the other thing they forget about is showing up once makes it easier to show up the next
00:29:20.600
So one thing we talk about in this book is this idea of a social battery or basically
00:29:26.140
And what we know is the more familiar you are with people, circumstances, and conversations,
00:29:34.220
So in the case of your men's group, let's say that you're a person who shows up the
00:29:39.560
You're worried that people don't think you have to say is good.
00:29:42.240
Maybe you haven't done the reading if you're, you know, having a Bible study group or something
00:29:49.160
And then you go and then, you know, you're feeling those anxieties.
00:29:53.820
The next time you go, the research would suggest that you feel all of them less.
00:29:58.100
So what's happening is simultaneously as your brain and your social behavior adapts to a
00:30:05.280
What's also happening, which is great, is you're actually contributing an investment
00:30:12.060
So each time you show up is more time kind of put in the piggy bank of investment towards
00:30:16.860
So what's fascinating about this is when you start thinking about it as I'm showing up over
00:30:21.400
and over again, makes it easier to keep showing up.
00:30:23.920
And there are additional benefits of, you know, camaraderie, friendship, and all those
00:30:28.520
You begin to realize that this routine has this wonderful self-sustaining ability in the
00:30:34.340
same way that we talked about the negative feedback loops.
00:30:36.800
There's also a positive feedback loop, but you have to start with showing up.
00:30:41.140
Well, this idea of showing up, this goes back to that idea that I wanted to explore further.
00:30:46.500
We mentioned earlier where, okay, socializing actually reduces stress in your life.
00:30:51.820
But this idea of showing up and overcoming these barriers to socializing, it makes socializing
00:31:07.820
So in that sense, socializing is a type of stressor.
00:31:14.520
But there's also some fascinating research that suggests it's maybe good stress.
00:31:19.500
I'll give you an example, which I find really fascinating.
00:31:22.100
There are several studies that have found that they count up questions of like, who are
00:31:25.880
your close friends or who are the family members you can count on?
00:31:28.980
And then survey researchers will ask another question, which is, so who is a stressor in
00:31:33.640
Who are family members that are really stressing you out and frustrating you?
00:31:36.300
And what's weird is, is that even the people who are frustrating or difficult are also people
00:31:44.360
And what that means is, is that even when we're contributing to people who are difficult,
00:31:50.860
I've actually also started to rethink when people stir up stuff.
00:31:54.680
Like, I don't know if you have a family where there are members of family who are like, stir
00:31:58.740
something up, create conflict when it's not there or get mad about something.
00:32:03.000
In some ways, what's curious is now that I've kind of taken some time to step back from
00:32:07.220
it, I'm like, well, part of this is that they understand by engaging in this, they're
00:32:10.900
actually getting people to talk to them, to have something to talk about.
00:32:14.220
They have emotional drama to be able to resolve, and it makes them feel connected to part of
00:32:20.040
Now, it's not a particularly functional way of doing it, but that stress, interestingly,
00:32:25.040
also probably makes them feel valued and connected by the group because they're trying to work on
00:32:29.220
something in that family or in that dynamic that's struggling.
00:32:34.620
Like, in my mind, people like my mom who work really hard to keep everybody engaged with one
00:32:41.920
But if she wasn't doing it, my brothers and I probably wouldn't talk to each other as often
00:32:46.560
So what's interesting is social stressors are not necessarily bad things in the long run.
00:32:53.220
But the other thing I think is important for us to keep in mind is that's also the good stuff.
00:32:58.080
Being important to other people means you also have to see them through difficult times.
00:33:02.900
One thing that Andy and I talk about in the book is if I'm a good listener to a close friend
00:33:08.160
and they're struggling, and I have had friends go through divorce, I've had friends go through
00:33:12.660
major losses in their life, I've had friends struggle with their parents, ill health, and
00:33:17.260
all of these things I imagine will continue to come as my life continues on.
00:33:25.320
It is work for me to show up for them and know that they're going to do 80% of the talking,
00:33:31.380
It's work for me to check in on them and send a message, and sometimes send a message that
00:33:35.440
they won't even respond to because they're overwhelmed with the circumstances they're
00:33:41.060
Every action of putting that work in is good for you as the giver, but it's even better
00:33:49.840
It's even better for them to feel like they have someone they can talk to, and you might
00:33:53.980
be the only person in their life that's reaching out like that.
00:33:56.880
When we begin to realize that our actions to put work into and the stress into these
00:34:02.080
relationships are actually things we do for other people, it reorients our thinking.
00:34:06.820
Rather than going, well, I've got to do this for myself.
00:34:12.800
We begin to go, I am engaging in social activity because it's good for other people, and it's giving
00:34:17.780
to other people to check in on them and make plans with them and care for them and listen
00:34:22.660
It reorients our thinking, I think, in a way that really helps us get out of our own sense
00:34:26.840
of interiority and towards another people, which is healthy.
00:34:31.220
No, I love this idea of socializing as a good stressor.
00:34:36.020
It made me think about how exercise is a stressor in our physical life.
00:34:40.180
And so when we exercise, we stress our bodies, but by stressing our bodies acutely, regularly,
00:34:47.160
we actually diminish chronic stress in our life.
00:34:52.100
And I think the same thing goes with socializing.
00:34:54.980
So if we think of socializing as a good stressor, if you get doses of it every single day, it
00:35:00.380
reduces our overall chronic stress and increases our overall well-being.
00:35:05.920
And like you said, it's something we can do for the good of others, but at the same time,
00:35:14.840
There's a quote that I have in the book that I really like.
00:35:17.520
Nick Cave, for those of you who may or may not know, Nick Cave was actually a member of a pretty
00:35:21.840
hardcore kind of post-punk band at the time, The Cave and the Bad Seeds.
00:35:28.900
And he lost his teenage son to a tragic accident.
00:35:32.380
And he talks about the importance of communication when you're at your worst, like you feel, I
00:35:39.140
mean, I cannot imagine the grief of losing my own son.
00:35:42.140
And Cave says, it seems to be essential, even if just a corrective for the bad, unexpressed
00:35:48.440
ideas we hold in our heads to communicate with others.
00:35:52.220
And what I really love about that quote is that he's conveying this idea that it is healthy
00:35:57.480
for us to get out of our own heads and relieve our stressors that are internal by being stressed
00:36:05.560
So I'm stressed out about all kinds of stuff, my kids, my work, my situation, and whatever
00:36:14.200
There's plenty of really good data and excellent research that says when we express those stressors
00:36:19.240
to others and share them and laugh about them and see them outside ourselves, they actually
00:36:23.840
have this wonderful restorative power to not only bring people together in sharing that
00:36:28.400
burden, but also you actually feel less stress in the long run.
00:36:32.160
So it's like the stress in the moment of caring for others is not only great for building a
00:36:36.400
relationship and a sense of belonging, which prevents long-term chronic stress and loneliness,
00:36:41.840
but the stress of thoughts unexpressed in our head that we're not sharing with others because
00:36:46.620
we're afraid of being vulnerable or afraid of admitting weakness also can be benefited by
00:36:54.820
And by talking about it, we can laugh about it and see perspective.
00:36:57.860
And another person says, oh yeah, I've gone through the same thing and it stinks and it's
00:37:04.100
My ideas are not just corrosively sitting inside of me, but they're actually being expressed
00:37:09.040
in a way that another person can see me more clearly and I can see them.
00:37:13.440
And also the reason why I like this idea of socializing as a stressor and kind of relating
00:37:17.680
it to exercise as a physical stressor, it made me think of that theory of an evolutionary
00:37:27.020
So we, people talk about, it's so weird that people go to gyms and walk on these treadmills
00:37:32.640
Well, we live in a world where you don't have to do a lot of physical work to live.
00:37:41.680
So we have to intentionally put our bodies under physical stress by going to these weird
00:37:47.220
buildings with these contraptions that look like torture devices to get that stress.
00:37:53.220
We are evolved to socialize, to connect with the group.
00:37:56.560
We now live in an environment where there's a mismatch.
00:38:00.520
Opportunities to socialize aren't as automatic and built into modern life as they used to be.
00:38:06.740
You know, they're not going to happen by default.
00:38:08.240
So we have to intentionally inject social stress in our life the same way we intentionally inject
00:38:19.820
We're living in a time where it seems conceivable that you can be in a room, never interact with
00:38:25.020
another human being, have all of your food delivered to you as long as you're making
00:38:28.700
enough money to pay for it, never socialize even with another person.
00:38:32.680
And in the age of AI, have your therapist, your girlfriend, and your best friend all be
00:38:40.040
We have created an environment where we can take all of the friction of human society and
00:38:45.380
take it away and replace it with technological affordances of being delivered our food, our
00:38:52.340
So we are at a very huge evolutionary mismatch right now.
00:38:56.620
And it wasn't even all that long ago in the past where the concept of friendship was deeply
00:39:00.780
born by the fact that we are in the world making exchanges and building trust with one another.
00:39:09.940
So if you think about the idea of first thing is this enough reflection of where you're at.
00:39:14.900
And are you a person who is have plenty of social life?
00:39:23.140
And in that case, the book probably is just in some ways just kind of patting you on the
00:39:28.000
We also do say in the book, you can be overtaxed.
00:39:31.340
You can get to the point where you're spread too thin and you need some time alone.
00:39:37.480
So socializing is a good stressor, but like any stressor, it's on that U-shaped curve.
00:39:44.100
And then at a certain point, you have diminishing returns and actually is bad.
00:39:49.380
Moderate exercise is good, but if you go past a certain point, it's going to be detrimental.
00:39:53.760
And I gave a talk recently in Kansas City about social, and I was surrounded by, you know,
00:39:58.340
young women professionals who were social networking for professional reasons, but also
00:40:03.660
And I said to them, I'm like, I'm guessing I'm in a room of people who are such deeply
00:40:09.240
committed to their social life that they actually need to hear the solitude part of my talk.
00:40:13.600
So I'm going to start with the solitude part of my talk.
00:40:15.760
And I really want to reinforce for folks out there, I'm not saying if you are on the far
00:40:20.380
end and the reaches of being socially stressed to keep like doing what you're doing.
00:40:25.180
Nourished solitude is critical for restoring our sense of connection to one another, that
00:40:29.660
shutting off and letting go of our social responsibilities, particularly the social
00:40:44.100
In the middle part of the curve, small acts of sociality are probably all you need.
00:40:48.660
For a person kind of in that middle part, you're not too social and you're not totally alone.
00:40:53.020
Things like talking to your neighbor, talking to a stranger, making small talk at work, making
00:40:58.800
time to make sure that you meet up with friends once a month, recognizing that small talk gets
00:41:03.900
such a bad rap that we have to reorganize our thinking about it and realize just checking
00:41:08.600
in with another person and showing them dignity and respect, whether that's your barista or
00:41:13.340
the person that works at your office or a neighbor is critical in building community.
00:41:17.840
So small steps, nothing big, some things once a day, like checking in with a stranger or
00:41:23.040
person in your world, something once a week, checking in with a close friend or with someone
00:41:28.740
And once a month, maybe that's like a longer sort of, if you have time for it and you should
00:41:33.360
make time for it, like a dinner together or, you know, out together to do something
00:41:40.840
But it's really important to realize you have to know where you are to start.
00:41:44.220
So the big thing about breaking social inertia is knowing where you begin.
00:41:48.840
One thing you'd also do in the book, you talk about different ways we can communicate with
00:41:54.440
And because we have the internet, it's just so many different ways.
00:41:58.160
You actually create a hierarchy on which ones are better than the others.
00:42:01.920
If you're going to reach out and connect with someone, walk us through that hierarchy.
00:42:04.900
What are some of the ways we can and which ways are better?
00:42:07.540
Yeah, I do a lot of research on social media, on texting, on phone calls.
00:42:17.540
And when we think about what that hierarchy is, is I'm encouraging people to move up the
00:42:23.200
And at the very, very bottom of this ladder of connection is actually like scrolling mindlessly
00:42:31.620
I don't think the evidence is unequivocally that this is harmful for you.
00:42:34.220
But there's plenty of research that say, depending on the type of content that you're
00:42:37.340
consuming, it is, it can be very harmful in the sense like doom scrolling.
00:42:41.200
I also think that for certain demographics, like younger adults, seeing things that are
00:42:45.660
constantly making them feel that they're being left out, FOMO, or, you know, they're not
00:42:50.300
as good or they're not as accomplished or not as successful as other people.
00:42:54.720
And if you can think about ways to minimize the amount of time you're doing those things,
00:43:05.200
Texting is actually, I think, kind of an unsung hero of connection.
00:43:08.480
There's a lot of fun studies that have been done recently that finds that even people you
00:43:11.800
haven't talked to for a while appreciate a text that just says, hey, I'm thinking of
00:43:15.700
People don't use email anymore, but if you are of the demographic and also the age group
00:43:23.240
One step up from texting would probably be a phone call or video chat, scheduling a time
00:43:28.040
to check in, have a longer conversation, back and forth, whatever.
00:43:32.320
Also, a lot of young adults, interestingly, are more adept at using video chat just to
00:43:38.040
So they just leave it on and then they go about what they're doing.
00:43:40.980
People, long distance relationships do that as well.
00:43:43.640
And then the top of that hierarchy is face-to-face communication.
00:43:46.000
So if you are a person who finds themselves just lacking for time to do any of these things,
00:43:54.800
Maybe if you're pretty good at keeping in touch on text and you have group chats going
00:43:58.520
on with lots of folks, you can have one you want to check in with and call in the next
00:44:05.940
That's the only way I keep in touch with my friends, by the way, is by an appointment.
00:44:09.280
So it's not like I'm just seeing if my friend Craig's going to pick up the phone.
00:44:16.580
So I'm just asking one step up, one step up at a time, and to recognize that any step
00:44:22.220
up actually shows empirical evidence to be beneficial.
00:44:26.920
I thought it was interesting, the research about the difference between video calls and
00:44:32.620
Yeah, that one's interesting too, because I think that's an evolving norm.
00:44:35.520
Some stuff suggests that video chat actually makes you feel a little more lonely because
00:44:38.840
it actually makes you feel perhaps that you're missing that person more when you see them.
00:44:43.740
And some people really love talking on the phone.
00:44:48.680
The sound of another person in my head makes me feel so close and connected to them.
00:44:52.740
But when I'm on video chat, I get distracted and confused, and I feel like I need to be
00:44:56.480
more aware of my facial behaviors, which makes me feel weird.
00:45:03.620
A lot of people are stuck on video chat all day long at work, which I think also degrades
00:45:09.220
But young adults have taught me that they seem to really get it, that video chat's a
00:45:13.820
good opportunity to just kind of have someone in your room while you're doing other things.
00:45:20.340
And it's a reason why on the podcast, I don't do video.
00:45:29.880
I think I can watch my words a lot more closely and really think about what you're saying.
00:45:34.660
But if I'm watching the interaction, I'm way too attentive to what I'm doing.
00:45:38.180
Yeah, and you don't have to worry about the lighting or what your hair looks like.
00:45:42.420
I'm having a good hair day though, Brett, so I appreciate you asking.
00:45:44.540
Okay, well, maybe we'll get a picture of what you look like and post it up.
00:45:49.000
The tricky thing about socializing is it requires other people.
00:45:57.260
But if the other person doesn't, or there's no one else to socialize with,
00:46:02.580
It's like wanting to play catch and there's no one to play catch with.
00:46:08.680
Because that collective action problem, it's structural.
00:46:11.260
Like the way our time is scheduled up, how our space is arranged.
00:46:14.760
What can we do to improve the structure of our lives so that socializing is maybe a bit easier,
00:46:22.940
can be completely easy or completely frictionless?
00:46:25.140
I think the effort is part of what makes it good for us.
00:46:27.720
But how can we approach it to facilitate it being a bigger part of our lives?
00:46:33.260
You know, one of my good friends from high school, she had this phrase, she went to social
00:46:37.620
work and she talked about the idea that you need to basically follow the weaker impulse.
00:46:42.060
And I love that phrase because it gives you kind of a sense in which that how you need
00:46:46.020
to be alert to the tendencies to not do this stuff.
00:46:49.700
And what I mean by following the weaker impulse when it comes to being social is you had a hard
00:46:54.400
There's a social event that you haven't been planning for a while.
00:46:57.740
You need to follow the weaker impulse, which says it's a good thing to go.
00:47:02.080
Another way, encourage the people in your life to be social.
00:47:07.760
Encourage the people around you to set a norm and an expectation that being social is something
00:47:14.540
I think structurally and socially, this is a very, very hard problem.
00:47:18.460
You know, Robert Putnam, who I've mentioned before, has been counseling every president since
00:47:21.760
Bill Clinton about how to build social interactions and build social community.
00:47:25.500
And they have not been able to reverse the trend.
00:47:28.040
I don't know how our trends around work can be fixed.
00:47:31.180
But some of this is about acknowledging that we are also engaging in trends that we have
00:47:36.360
And I think the big one is how we choose to use our leisure time around media entertainment.
00:47:40.940
I think we have to reorganize the way that we think about what's valuable about consuming
00:47:44.500
media and say that maybe this is really not the thing that needs to be occupying my time
00:47:50.100
And if I make an exception by saying this night of the week, I'm going to reserve for catching
00:47:53.860
up with a friend or otherwise, it's a worthwhile endeavor to do.
00:47:57.000
So what's hard is I wish for a world in which we could return to a sense of social obligation
00:48:03.000
I wish for a world in which that it became more normative, that people would reach out,
00:48:07.180
care for the people, especially those who are needed and isolated.
00:48:10.340
But the biggest thing that I got to recommend is the only change that I think you really have
00:48:13.700
control over is to recognize that making a priority in your life means showing up, doing
00:48:18.220
so consistently, and, you know, taking your knocks when people can't be there for you.
00:48:22.440
People cancel on you, you forgive them, and you try again.
00:48:29.180
You chit chat with the bagger at the grocery store, and that 16-year-old, you know, rolls
00:48:34.460
their eyes at you because you're some middle-aged white dude telling them this or that.
00:48:40.800
I recognize that every social interaction is not going to be a great one.
00:48:45.000
But the fact that I'm trying in my world and my community, I think makes me a person
00:48:49.780
who's trying to build a healthier biome to live in for everyone.
00:48:51.920
Yeah, so exercise your agency to change the environment around you.
00:48:56.520
And I think the idea is if you start making it a priority in your life, hosting parties,
00:49:01.000
hosting even just small get-togethers with your friends, reaching out, the idea is that
00:49:07.240
People are like, oh, wow, this guy's having a get-together where he just has, you know,
00:49:10.980
beers and sodas, and it's nothing really big, but I had a really good time.
00:49:15.980
And I think what's curious about this is that we also know from other research on social
00:49:22.320
People begin to understand that this is something that can be done and they see pathways to doing
00:49:26.720
Any major social change happens because enough people have modeled it and demonstrated how
00:49:33.960
I mean, I think there's a lot of reason to be hopeful.
00:49:35.500
So if listeners were to take one small action this week to build up their own social biome
00:49:41.220
and the social biome around them, what would you recommend?
00:49:45.740
Yeah, I would say make a plan with somebody that you love, you know, if that's your romantic
00:49:50.640
partner, that's your best friend, if that's your family member or brother or sister, make
00:49:55.520
a plan to talk to them, you know, make a plan to have lunch, make a plan to check in, make
00:49:59.600
a plan to make a phone call, put it on your calendar and do it.
00:50:01.920
And even if you're just listening right now, send that text, say, hey, we haven't caught
00:50:06.720
Would you like to get together or we have this thing coming up or when are you available
00:50:11.160
Do it while you're listening to this conversation that Brett and I are having and then keep being
00:50:17.040
If that person says, oh, yeah, definitely, but I need to get back to you, get back to
00:50:24.140
And once you have that opportunity to connect with them, the best piece of advice is to say,
00:50:28.780
let's do it again and not just do it out of politeness, but actually put it on the calendar
00:50:34.080
And once you start doing it, it becomes easier and easier.
00:50:37.460
After I read this book, I told you this in the email that I sent you before this interview.
00:50:46.700
Saturday morning, eight o'clock, eat some donuts along the way.
00:50:51.400
I could have done this so many times, but you know, that social inertia, but looks like a
00:50:56.280
lot of guys are going to show up and it should be fun.
00:50:59.000
And I would also say, you know, if not all of them show up, do it anyway.
00:51:04.840
And maybe new people will show up next time because they weren't available this time.
00:51:08.200
I think we're too quick to assume that social failure means it's not worth doing.
00:51:12.960
Well, Jeffrey, this has been a great conversation.
00:51:14.660
Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work?
00:51:17.920
So I run the Relationships and Technology Lab here at the University of Kansas and my research
00:51:23.400
I'm really active on posting about research-related findings on LinkedIn.
00:51:27.960
The social biome specifically is something I promote on Instagram and I'm Jeffrey Hall,
00:51:34.960
So those two kind of places are in which people can kind of see updates on what my work is
00:51:47.320
He's the co-author of the book, The Social Biome.
00:51:49.500
It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere.
00:51:52.020
Make sure to check out our show notes at awim.is slash social stress.
00:51:55.260
You can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.
00:52:05.120
Well, that wraps up another edition of the AWIM podcast.
00:52:07.840
Make sure to check out our website at artofmanliness.com where you can find our podcast archives.
00:52:17.800
As always, thank you for the continued support.
00:52:20.680
Remind you to not listen to the AWIM podcast, but put what you've heard into action.