The Auron MacIntyre Show - A Politics of Transcendence ｜ Guest： John Burtka ｜ 12⧸18⧸23

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00:00:15.040 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:16.800 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:18.260 I've got a great stream with a great guest

00:00:20.120 that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:22.380 So I think all of us are fed up

00:00:24.280 with the type of politics that both parties are engaged in.

00:00:28.640 It all seems like they're interested in empire maintenance

00:00:32.480 or slight tweaks to our managerial bureaucracy.

00:00:37.600 We don't have a lot of people heading for something higher,

00:00:40.540 something different,

00:00:41.640 trying to change the game that we're involved in.

00:00:44.240 Wanted to talk to Johnny Berkta today a little bit about that.

00:00:47.780 He's got a couple of pieces over at the American Mind

00:00:50.100 that I thought were pretty interesting.

00:00:51.720 And he's also the president over at ISI.

00:00:54.500 Johnny, thanks for coming on.

00:00:56.020 Thanks for having me on.

00:00:57.680 Absolutely.

00:00:58.000 So for people who are unaware,

00:00:59.500 can you give a little bit of background?

00:01:01.220 How did you get into what you're doing now,

00:01:03.820 politics, that kind of thing?

00:01:06.240 Sure.

00:01:06.780 I went to Hillsdale College from 2008 to 2012.

00:01:11.760 And I actually studied religion in French.

00:01:14.440 So at the time,

00:01:14.960 I didn't have any direct interest in politics.

00:01:17.480 I went to seminary, studied more theology.

00:01:20.380 And then my own personal theology was shifting.

00:01:23.880 So I was actually a Calvinist at the time.

00:01:26.140 And I came out the other end, Eastern Orthodox.

00:01:29.360 And so along the way in that journey,

00:01:31.900 I decided to get back into politics.

00:01:34.040 So I came and worked for ISI for two years,

00:01:37.260 my first job out of grad school.

00:01:39.480 And then for four,

00:01:40.840 I left and I ran the American Conservative magazine

00:01:43.580 in Washington, D.C.

00:01:45.300 And then ISI recruited me back as president.

00:01:48.300 And I've been president of ISI for three years now.

00:01:52.700 Excellent.

00:01:52.900 Yeah, you don't usually hear a theological shift

00:01:55.420 as the reason for that.

00:01:57.140 But that is a very interesting thing.

00:01:59.020 They, of course, often do align,

00:02:01.140 even though people don't necessarily realize that.

00:02:03.440 And Eastern Orthodox has certainly picked up 1.00

00:02:06.240 a lot of people making that shift as well.

00:02:08.380 So interesting to see how that kind of weaves its way

00:02:11.620 into a politics of transcendence.

00:02:14.940 All right, guys, we're going to go ahead

00:02:16.020 and get into that in just a moment.

00:02:17.820 But before we do, let's hear from today's sponsor.

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00:03:57.040 All right, Johnny,

00:03:58.000 so one of the things that you address

00:04:00.160 over at The American Mind

00:04:01.500 is the way that the shift of America

00:04:04.780 from a nation into an empire

00:04:07.160 impacted its political realities,

00:04:10.180 the way that that changed the way

00:04:11.820 that it approached politics,

00:04:13.700 the way that its leaders behaved

00:04:16.440 and moved further away

00:04:17.740 from a more traditional statesman

00:04:19.900 into kind of what we have now.

00:04:22.260 So I was hoping you could talk a little bit

00:04:23.760 about that shift.

00:04:24.760 How did, or when did,

00:04:26.320 when would you say America became an empire

00:04:29.020 and how did that impact

00:04:30.580 the way that it approached politics?

00:04:32.980 It's a great starting point.

00:04:35.060 So I think America really became an empire

00:04:36.980 around the 1900, right?

00:04:40.300 So basically you saw

00:04:41.640 during the McKinley kind of Roosevelt era

00:04:44.900 that shift towards an expansionist,

00:04:48.580 I think foreign policy,

00:04:50.120 but also very practically acquiring territory

00:04:53.140 like Hawaii,

00:04:54.500 like the Panama Canal Zone,

00:04:56.040 the Philippines,

00:04:57.740 you see Roosevelt sending

00:04:59.740 the great white fleet

00:05:01.000 of the American Navy around the world

00:05:03.200 as a sign of American sea power

00:05:05.240 and a message to the nations

00:05:06.920 that we were really eclipsing

00:05:08.700 the British Empire on the world stage.

00:05:11.540 So I think that's really

00:05:12.540 when it began to shift.

00:05:14.560 And you also see,

00:05:16.120 you know, at home,

00:05:16.820 there's a corresponding shift.

00:05:18.360 It starts with the progressive movement.

00:05:21.040 I actually admire some of the,

00:05:23.020 you know, the trust busting

00:05:24.020 of Teddy Roosevelt,

00:05:24.980 but there's certainly this growing executive power

00:05:28.980 that accompanies the shift in foreign policy.

00:05:31.500 But I actually think it's quite important

00:05:33.380 for people to understand

00:05:34.500 that the shift in foreign policy comes first,

00:05:37.660 and then the pressures of maintaining

00:05:40.060 an empire abroad

00:05:42.180 necessitate stronger executive power at home.

00:05:45.800 So what happens during this time?

00:05:50.900 Because I think, you know,

00:05:52.540 you rightly point out

00:05:53.400 no constitutional amendments take place.

00:05:56.180 There's no official alteration

00:05:58.240 of the way that we govern.

00:06:00.280 But clearly,

00:06:00.900 it's not just that the president gets more power,

00:06:04.180 because when we look at Trump,

00:06:05.920 he had almost no power, right?

00:06:07.740 You can't just say,

00:06:09.960 well, it moves power to the executive

00:06:11.740 and then look at someone like Donald Trump,

00:06:13.600 whose generals basically laughed at him.

00:06:15.800 In foreign policy.

00:06:17.200 So I think there's a deeper,

00:06:18.480 a deeper change that occurs there.

00:06:20.680 What, why did we not write anything

00:06:22.680 in the constitution,

00:06:23.620 but all of a sudden,

00:06:25.000 some presidents seem to have

00:06:26.760 almost dictatorial control,

00:06:28.920 and some presidents barely seem to have control

00:06:31.860 of their own executive branch.

00:06:33.760 And you could argue that someone,

00:06:36.080 you know, conservative president

00:06:37.580 ought to have more

00:06:38.760 presidential executive power today

00:06:40.880 to especially rein in these,

00:06:42.580 you know,

00:06:43.260 the deep state

00:06:44.320 and these rogue bureaucracies.

00:06:46.260 I think you really saw

00:06:47.800 what you're describing

00:06:49.080 as kind of the establishment

00:06:50.300 of the administrative state,

00:06:53.340 which I think morphed

00:06:54.140 into this oligarchic class.

00:06:56.400 Begin,

00:06:58.440 I think there's a general shift

00:07:00.540 away from statesmanship

00:07:02.440 to expertise

00:07:04.160 in a management society.

00:07:05.880 I think this began

00:07:06.900 probably under Wilson.

00:07:08.580 But FDR,

00:07:09.600 you really see the expansion of it

00:07:11.220 with the creation of,

00:07:12.500 you know,

00:07:12.840 numerous New Deal agencies

00:07:15.460 that Congress essentially created

00:07:17.320 at the behest of the president.

00:07:18.880 And I think in the early days,

00:07:21.080 those were pretty responsive

00:07:23.020 to executive power.

00:07:24.840 But over time,

00:07:26.140 as those agencies multiplied

00:07:28.720 and as Congress continued

00:07:30.060 to really,

00:07:31.480 I think to some extent,

00:07:32.660 meet the demands

00:07:33.600 of the American people

00:07:34.720 who are looking for

00:07:36.120 a more assertive role

00:07:37.440 of the federal government

00:07:38.400 in their lives,

00:07:40.260 you know,

00:07:40.480 whether it's,

00:07:41.200 you know,

00:07:41.360 around civil rights issues,

00:07:42.740 whether it's around

00:07:43.640 other issues

00:07:44.880 just to deliver relief,

00:07:46.340 Social Security,

00:07:47.680 Medicare,

00:07:48.940 other programs

00:07:49.840 along these lines,

00:07:50.660 you see many of these agencies

00:07:52.400 being created.

00:07:54.000 And then,

00:07:55.160 because Congress

00:07:55.920 has really delegated

00:07:57.240 these authorities,

00:07:58.120 which they're technically

00:07:59.080 not based on the Constitution

00:08:00.980 allowed to do.

00:08:02.160 And the president

00:08:02.900 doesn't really have

00:08:04.140 direct control

00:08:05.620 to hire and fire

00:08:06.580 all of the employees,

00:08:08.640 although I think

00:08:09.120 there are some people

00:08:10.440 working on legal theories

00:08:11.600 to get rid of

00:08:12.960 or be able to have

00:08:13.780 the president fire

00:08:14.600 more of these bureaucrats.

00:08:15.860 He can really only control

00:08:17.140 a very small number,

00:08:18.740 maybe 10,

00:08:19.400 20 percent

00:08:20.000 of the political appointees

00:08:21.280 at top.

00:08:22.000 And what you end up having

00:08:23.440 is this,

00:08:24.060 you know,

00:08:24.460 this thick,

00:08:25.480 bureaucratic,

00:08:26.340 administrative state

00:08:27.380 that I think

00:08:28.000 in some areas

00:08:29.200 is really more

00:08:30.040 of an administrative state.

00:08:31.460 It's essentially inertia

00:08:32.900 with a liberal bent.

00:08:34.660 And then in other areas,

00:08:35.440 it's much more hostile,

00:08:36.520 like you see

00:08:37.320 in the intelligence agencies

00:08:38.560 that are actively

00:08:39.340 working to thwart,

00:08:41.300 you know,

00:08:42.300 major aspects

00:08:43.120 of a president's legislation.

00:08:44.880 So in the end,

00:08:46.200 it's not actually

00:08:47.200 the executive power

00:08:48.540 that ends up

00:08:49.420 getting propped up,

00:08:50.460 but it's really

00:08:51.060 the power

00:08:51.860 of an oligarchic class

00:08:53.820 that is exerting influence.

00:08:55.460 And really,

00:08:56.180 it's a class of people

00:08:57.160 that move seamlessly

00:08:58.280 between government

00:08:59.640 and business

00:09:00.380 and philanthropy.

00:09:02.660 Yeah,

00:09:02.800 I think that's critical.

00:09:04.120 It's something

00:09:04.580 that I talk a lot about.

00:09:06.280 And of course,

00:09:07.040 I think more conservatives

00:09:08.740 are starting to understand

00:09:10.140 this,

00:09:10.880 the nature of this problem

00:09:12.100 that you've elevated

00:09:13.760 the class of people

00:09:14.800 that it doesn't just exist

00:09:16.140 inside your government.

00:09:17.340 It's not just small government

00:09:18.560 that's going to solve

00:09:19.220 your problem

00:09:19.660 because the powers

00:09:21.580 that are being wielded,

00:09:23.160 while they do seem

00:09:24.120 to work with the regime,

00:09:25.800 they do seem to work

00:09:26.500 in concert with the state,

00:09:27.400 are not officially constrained

00:09:29.000 by the Constitution

00:09:30.460 or the apparatus

00:09:31.660 that it would wield.

00:09:33.000 I want to talk about

00:09:33.780 that a little more,

00:09:34.560 but before we do,

00:09:35.900 I wanted to get to a shift

00:09:37.860 you had noticed there

00:09:38.840 between the statesman

00:09:40.440 and the manager.

00:09:42.060 I think a lot of people

00:09:43.200 would have a hard time

00:09:44.220 drawing a distinction.

00:09:46.240 What would a country

00:09:48.480 or kind of a cabinet

00:09:50.400 that is steered by statesmen,

00:09:52.560 how does that look different

00:09:53.400 from one that is mainly influenced

00:09:55.080 by the administrative state?

00:09:56.820 Sure.

00:09:57.380 Well, I just spent

00:09:58.620 the past two years

00:09:59.580 working on a book

00:10:00.520 on the Mirrors for Prince's

00:10:02.200 genre of literature

00:10:03.500 and statesmanship,

00:10:04.760 which maybe we'll get

00:10:05.500 into more detail

00:10:06.360 later on in the episode.

00:10:08.900 But really,

00:10:09.620 if you look at the classic text

00:10:11.720 on statesmanship

00:10:12.960 in every civilization,

00:10:14.700 going all the way back

00:10:15.760 to Greece, Rome, China, India,

00:10:18.060 there is an immense amount

00:10:20.160 of advice really

00:10:23.700 that's centered

00:10:24.340 on moral

00:10:27.120 and theological principles,

00:10:29.020 not just in the abstract,

00:10:30.780 but in their application

00:10:31.840 in the real world.

00:10:32.940 And you actually get a sense

00:10:34.400 that to be a statesman

00:10:35.520 is a real art.

00:10:36.740 It's a craft.

00:10:37.800 It requires prudence.

00:10:39.260 It requires virtue.

00:10:40.940 There's an element,

00:10:41.760 even in Machiavelli,

00:10:43.240 of destiny and fortune

00:10:44.840 and sort of a great

00:10:46.380 ambitious leader

00:10:47.280 kind of riding the waves

00:10:48.920 of fortune

00:10:49.600 and, you know,

00:10:51.460 their enemies

00:10:53.800 who come at them,

00:10:54.860 they're used as ladders

00:10:55.760 to kind of climb

00:10:56.640 the rungs of greatness.

00:10:58.100 You know,

00:10:58.340 it's a very sort of

00:10:59.080 beautiful,

00:10:59.900 captivating thing.

00:11:01.800 And I think you end up

00:11:03.780 getting with the progressive era,

00:11:06.200 you know,

00:11:06.400 a strong sense of discomfort

00:11:08.360 with this understanding

00:11:10.300 of statesmanship.

00:11:12.220 And I think it in part

00:11:13.900 is sort of a scientism.

00:11:17.360 You know,

00:11:17.620 it's the belief

00:11:18.500 that everything in the world

00:11:19.540 can just simply be measured

00:11:21.400 and known

00:11:22.040 in a very rational way

00:11:23.620 and that decisions,

00:11:25.020 you know,

00:11:25.180 you can make decisions

00:11:26.340 by sort of tinkering

00:11:27.620 with an apparatus.

00:11:29.020 You want kind of experts

00:11:30.820 who can work the levers

00:11:32.060 of bureaucratic power.

00:11:33.600 Sort of the era

00:11:34.180 of great men and women

00:11:35.180 is sort of behind us.

00:11:37.420 And so I think

00:11:38.160 that's really the mindset shift

00:11:40.220 that takes place

00:11:41.140 in the early 20th century.

00:11:42.500 Yeah,

00:11:43.920 and I think this is just occurring.

00:11:46.160 This is just modernity's attack

00:11:47.920 on everything.

00:11:49.360 Are you a baseball guy at all?

00:11:50.820 I don't know.

00:11:52.260 I'm a college football guy,

00:11:53.840 not a baseball guy,

00:11:55.120 but I'm,

00:11:55.780 you know.

00:11:56.300 If you're familiar,

00:11:57.360 they did a movie on this.

00:11:59.280 Brad Pitt did the Moneyball movie.

00:12:01.000 I don't know

00:12:01.240 if you remember that at all.

00:12:02.560 But basically,

00:12:03.140 it's a phenomenon of like taking,

00:12:05.160 you know,

00:12:05.300 you used to have scouts

00:12:06.440 and they would go out

00:12:07.660 and they would look at a player

00:12:08.820 and they would identify

00:12:10.700 different qualities

00:12:11.820 in that player

00:12:12.980 and would make predictions

00:12:15.260 on kind of where

00:12:16.280 that person would go.

00:12:17.680 And then they moved

00:12:18.140 to this Moneyball model,

00:12:19.800 which is,

00:12:20.440 you know,

00:12:20.580 everybody's just got

00:12:21.360 a million,

00:12:21.940 you know,

00:12:22.220 stats and they're just

00:12:23.200 crunching all the numbers

00:12:24.240 and shaving all the edges.

00:12:25.740 And it drains the magic

00:12:27.480 out of things

00:12:28.020 and it works for a while,

00:12:29.180 but eventually it kind of

00:12:30.960 sucks the soul

00:12:31.720 out of everything.

00:12:32.740 And I think about that,

00:12:33.720 you know,

00:12:33.960 kind of when that gets applied

00:12:35.120 to politics as well.

00:12:36.800 A lot of people would rather

00:12:38.180 have this known quantity

00:12:40.280 of, you know,

00:12:41.820 oh, he's got this certification.

00:12:43.660 He spent this many years

00:12:44.780 through going

00:12:45.320 through the university system.

00:12:46.640 He's got this many

00:12:47.320 credential pieces

00:12:48.200 and therefore,

00:12:49.660 you know,

00:12:49.960 we're going to go ahead

00:12:50.680 and filter everything

00:12:51.480 through this bureaucracy

00:12:52.680 and that's what's going to

00:12:54.340 churn out the consensus opinion

00:12:56.020 rather than having

00:12:57.060 that dynamic,

00:12:57.920 you know,

00:12:59.320 choice made by states.

00:13:00.600 But I think people

00:13:01.160 are really uncomfortable

00:13:02.620 in the modern world

00:13:04.240 with the idea

00:13:05.000 of great men

00:13:06.200 and great women. 0.86

00:13:07.180 In fact,

00:13:07.680 you know,

00:13:08.080 you make the point

00:13:08.600 in the piece

00:13:08.900 and I think it's right.

00:13:09.760 In some ways,

00:13:10.340 there's something

00:13:10.700 baked into the American

00:13:11.960 consciousness about,

00:13:14.040 you know,

00:13:14.760 great men and women

00:13:15.680 and that they should

00:13:16.900 not be wielding

00:13:18.580 that kind of power.

00:13:19.640 And I think that's something

00:13:20.420 that while I think

00:13:21.400 you're right about

00:13:22.060 kind of the nature

00:13:22.860 of that transition,

00:13:24.140 I think that's something

00:13:24.780 that you do run into

00:13:25.820 when you're attempting

00:13:26.520 to kind of re-implement

00:13:27.840 that you're in some ways

00:13:29.020 trying to re-mystify

00:13:30.500 kind of the political process

00:13:32.600 and I think that

00:13:33.580 that scares a lot of people.

00:13:34.840 Yeah,

00:13:36.020 and I don't think

00:13:36.660 it necessarily needs to.

00:13:38.280 I think there are ways,

00:13:39.540 you know,

00:13:39.740 there are individuals

00:13:40.520 in the American tradition.

00:13:43.140 Alexander Hamilton

00:13:44.040 is one of my,

00:13:45.000 you know,

00:13:45.320 favorite founders.

00:13:46.260 So you do see

00:13:46.840 these visionary leaders

00:13:48.560 who like energy,

00:13:50.760 who have a lot of energy,

00:13:52.060 who, you know,

00:13:52.700 Hamilton is the architect

00:13:54.020 of American capitalism

00:13:55.160 and he wrote,

00:13:56.240 you know,

00:13:56.380 his report on manufacturers

00:13:57.660 was all about

00:13:58.640 how do we make America

00:13:59.980 the greatest industrial power

00:14:02.220 on earth

00:14:02.940 and how,

00:14:04.160 you know,

00:14:04.400 without,

00:14:05.000 you know,

00:14:06.000 proposing a,

00:14:06.960 a status solution

00:14:08.840 the way we think of it today,

00:14:10.040 but how can you use

00:14:10.960 aspects of trade

00:14:12.840 and industrial policy

00:14:13.920 to establish

00:14:15.080 American independence,

00:14:16.580 right?

00:14:16.820 Because I think

00:14:18.080 a lot of people forget

00:14:18.960 that the Declaration

00:14:19.620 of Independence

00:14:20.360 isn't just about

00:14:21.580 the abstract political principles

00:14:23.780 contained in the Declaration.

00:14:24.940 There was a concrete purpose

00:14:26.720 for this document.

00:14:27.800 It was independence

00:14:28.600 from Great Britain

00:14:29.460 and establishing

00:14:30.560 that independence

00:14:31.320 was more than

00:14:32.000 just a political act.

00:14:33.220 It actually required

00:14:34.480 the young nation

00:14:35.760 to,

00:14:36.160 to separate,

00:14:36.940 to break free

00:14:37.760 from the British imperial

00:14:39.080 economic system

00:14:40.700 and,

00:14:41.620 and stand on its own

00:14:42.800 two feet.

00:14:43.680 And that took a lot of time,

00:14:45.280 but Hamilton

00:14:45.680 had the vision for that.

00:14:47.220 So I think as you go

00:14:47.920 throughout American history,

00:14:49.080 you do see,

00:14:50.480 you know,

00:14:50.640 some of our most revered

00:14:52.100 presidents,

00:14:53.460 whether it's,

00:14:55.080 you know,

00:14:56.000 Hamilton,

00:14:56.780 who was never actually

00:14:57.400 the president himself,

00:14:58.340 but you see Jefferson

00:14:59.700 when he was president,

00:15:00.800 right?

00:15:01.000 He exercised

00:15:01.840 with the Louisiana Purchase

00:15:03.060 and other things,

00:15:04.060 a little bit more

00:15:04.760 aggressive action

00:15:05.640 than he,

00:15:06.180 he would allow for

00:15:07.460 in theory.

00:15:08.060 You see this with Lincoln,

00:15:09.260 you see it with Teddy Roosevelt,

00:15:10.420 you see it with FDR.

00:15:12.320 The list could,

00:15:13.420 could go on.

00:15:15.520 So I'm with you

00:15:17.180 kind of up to this point

00:15:18.860 and I think that

00:15:19.780 the goal that,

00:15:21.480 you know,

00:15:21.740 of,

00:15:21.920 of kind of returning

00:15:23.120 a statesman-like

00:15:25.220 approach to,

00:15:26.200 to politics

00:15:26.760 is certainly a good one.

00:15:28.620 But I worry about

00:15:29.660 the ability to return

00:15:31.200 because,

00:15:31.920 you know,

00:15:32.460 when,

00:15:32.840 when you start talking

00:15:33.760 about the way

00:15:34.460 that we would,

00:15:35.100 we would kind of

00:15:35.660 turn towards this,

00:15:37.320 I wonder if there aren't

00:15:38.640 some issues

00:15:39.400 that would come

00:15:40.100 with scale.

00:15:40.940 But I guess the first thing

00:15:41.640 we should do

00:15:42.080 is explain

00:15:42.920 how we would do this.

00:15:44.560 So if America,

00:15:46.380 I guess the first question is,

00:15:47.980 can America actually return

00:15:49.720 to the type of governance

00:15:50.980 you're talking about

00:15:51.820 because it has become

00:15:53.340 this global empire,

00:15:54.480 right?

00:15:54.980 Whether,

00:15:55.820 whether it should have

00:15:56.700 or not,

00:15:57.920 you know,

00:15:58.120 I would argue

00:15:58.640 that many of the things

00:16:00.060 that,

00:16:00.400 you know,

00:16:00.740 that Alexander Hamilton

00:16:01.740 did put you on a

00:16:02.460 collision course

00:16:03.040 with this,

00:16:04.060 right?

00:16:04.220 Like in order to

00:16:05.040 free yourself

00:16:05.520 from the British

00:16:06.520 mercantile empire,

00:16:07.340 you had to become

00:16:08.420 the mercantile empire,

00:16:09.440 right?

00:16:09.720 And so many of our goals,

00:16:11.940 you know,

00:16:12.740 it may have led us

00:16:13.600 to this point.

00:16:14.320 But the question is,

00:16:16.140 now that we have reached

00:16:17.220 this point,

00:16:18.500 can we go back?

00:16:19.780 Can we govern

00:16:20.420 ourselves differently?

00:16:21.540 Can we,

00:16:22.140 you know,

00:16:22.860 go to this different

00:16:25.160 form of governance?

00:16:25.960 And how would we do that?

00:16:27.220 How would we roll back

00:16:28.100 the clock

00:16:28.560 or find a way forward

00:16:29.860 that still incorporates

00:16:31.860 many of the traditions

00:16:32.700 you're talking about?

00:16:34.000 So I don't think

00:16:34.920 there's any way

00:16:35.600 to roll back the clock.

00:16:36.700 I think the only way

00:16:37.860 we have to go

00:16:39.300 is forward.

00:16:40.620 And so that means

00:16:42.420 we have to acknowledge

00:16:43.760 both,

00:16:45.580 and I,

00:16:46.000 you know,

00:16:46.260 I'm with you.

00:16:46.960 I'm probably,

00:16:48.020 you know,

00:16:48.300 just as big of a skeptic

00:16:49.960 of America's

00:16:50.800 military interventions

00:16:52.180 abroad in the last

00:16:53.120 30 years

00:16:53.660 as anyone else.

00:16:54.980 I think a lot of

00:16:55.840 what we've done

00:16:56.440 on the world stage

00:16:57.260 has been,

00:16:58.100 has been,

00:16:59.860 pardon me here,

00:17:03.320 has been reprehensible.

00:17:04.560 But I think

00:17:06.840 it's one of those

00:17:07.540 challenges

00:17:08.000 where you have

00:17:08.540 to recognize

00:17:09.100 that the 20th century

00:17:10.180 was the American century

00:17:11.960 and that that

00:17:13.680 American century

00:17:14.580 and the prosperity

00:17:15.400 that came with it

00:17:16.420 and that drive

00:17:17.500 for greatness,

00:17:18.840 you know,

00:17:19.020 the drive that

00:17:19.640 really made us

00:17:20.660 into a global

00:17:21.400 hegemon

00:17:21.960 after World War II

00:17:23.200 had some costs

00:17:25.020 and some serious

00:17:25.720 drawbacks with

00:17:26.860 and we're living

00:17:27.800 in that reality today.

00:17:29.160 So going back

00:17:29.860 is hard.

00:17:30.860 That doesn't mean

00:17:31.280 we don't

00:17:32.320 take the example

00:17:34.520 of the founders,

00:17:35.660 you know,

00:17:35.900 the Constitution itself,

00:17:37.420 these other

00:17:37.840 American traditions

00:17:38.920 of federalism

00:17:39.740 and other things

00:17:40.380 and draw from them today.

00:17:41.720 But I think we have

00:17:42.360 to reckon

00:17:42.820 with the reality

00:17:43.620 that we have.

00:17:44.780 And I think

00:17:45.060 there is a way

00:17:46.860 where America

00:17:49.660 can regain

00:17:50.780 her industrial

00:17:52.340 independence,

00:17:53.300 that we can start

00:17:54.160 to move supply chains

00:17:55.420 back to the United States 0.98

00:17:57.660 in critical industries,

00:17:59.040 that that empire

00:18:00.280 that we have

00:18:01.480 can be more focused

00:18:04.260 upon,

00:18:05.060 you know,

00:18:05.560 sort of classic

00:18:06.280 Monroe doctrine,

00:18:07.420 really,

00:18:07.780 you know,

00:18:08.300 preserving our authority

00:18:10.180 within our sphere

00:18:11.060 of influence

00:18:11.700 in the Americas itself

00:18:13.660 and resist the temptation

00:18:16.800 to dive into conflicts

00:18:18.260 in Eastern Europe

00:18:19.040 and the Middle East.

00:18:20.060 So I think there's a way

00:18:20.760 in which you can

00:18:21.600 scale back

00:18:22.980 some of the worst

00:18:23.840 excesses of it.

00:18:25.140 But I think

00:18:25.520 at the end of the day,

00:18:26.920 at least I still want

00:18:27.980 America to be a great power

00:18:29.380 in our neck of the woods.

00:18:30.840 I think that's important

00:18:31.520 for our independence

00:18:32.300 and for our security.

00:18:33.820 So there's a way

00:18:34.380 that you can still have that

00:18:35.880 as the world shifts

00:18:37.300 to a more multipolar reality.

00:18:40.440 Yeah,

00:18:40.880 that was going to be

00:18:41.320 my next question.

00:18:42.400 You know,

00:18:42.560 obviously we had the,

00:18:44.260 you know,

00:18:44.460 we had a bipolar reality

00:18:45.820 up to the end

00:18:47.540 of the Cold War.

00:18:49.020 And then we have

00:18:50.720 a unipolar reality,

00:18:52.720 you know,

00:18:53.460 after it.

00:18:54.400 And this has,

00:18:55.480 of course,

00:18:56.100 created a lot of opportunity

00:18:57.200 for the United States.

00:18:58.180 Obviously not having

00:18:59.280 a world power

00:19:01.240 with a number of,

00:19:03.100 you know,

00:19:03.380 world-ending weapons

00:19:04.860 aimed at you

00:19:05.460 at all times

00:19:06.220 and fighting

00:19:06.900 for kind of

00:19:08.080 the existential control

00:19:09.380 of the world

00:19:10.620 is probably a good thing.

00:19:12.180 But it has,

00:19:13.040 of course,

00:19:13.320 also led us

00:19:13.960 to the excesses

00:19:14.780 that you're talking about

00:19:15.880 in kind of American

00:19:17.300 foreign policy adventurism.

00:19:18.720 It's very interesting

00:19:19.620 that, you know,

00:19:20.080 you kind of had

00:19:20.760 that paleocon split

00:19:22.680 at the end

00:19:23.480 of the Cold War

00:19:25.400 because, you know,

00:19:26.220 is all this,

00:19:26.740 well,

00:19:26.900 we were on board

00:19:27.680 with growing government

00:19:28.500 as long as it meant

00:19:29.240 getting rid of

00:19:30.400 the, you know,

00:19:32.080 the Soviet Union.

00:19:33.180 But now that it's gone,

00:19:34.260 why are we still doing this?

00:19:35.720 And this is where

00:19:36.080 you kind of get

00:19:36.500 the Pat Buchanan

00:19:37.260 and such,

00:19:38.280 you know,

00:19:38.860 kind of looking

00:19:39.520 at that post-Cold War

00:19:43.140 split in conservatism.

00:19:45.660 But I think

00:19:46.320 the problem is,

00:19:47.280 you know,

00:19:47.460 a lot of people

00:19:48.100 are now observing,

00:19:49.100 as you said,

00:19:49.600 that we might be moving

00:19:50.500 to a more

00:19:51.300 multipolar reality

00:19:53.040 at the United States,

00:19:54.840 whether it wants

00:19:55.700 to or not

00:19:56.360 is going to have

00:19:56.900 to acknowledge

00:19:57.620 that it can no longer

00:19:58.640 can continue

00:19:59.380 to kind of hold

00:20:00.280 this grasp,

00:20:01.940 this singular position

00:20:04.320 over the rest

00:20:05.620 of the world.

00:20:06.560 I think that

00:20:07.080 the conservative movement

00:20:08.400 is increasingly okay

00:20:10.620 with that option.

00:20:12.520 But I would say

00:20:13.640 it's a very rare thing

00:20:15.520 for a world power

00:20:17.680 to step back like this.

00:20:19.000 Britain got to do it 0.97

00:20:19.860 because we were there

00:20:20.740 to basically

00:20:21.280 just take the torch, right?

00:20:22.520 They got to hand

00:20:23.720 that reality off

00:20:25.480 to someone

00:20:26.580 that was more

00:20:27.240 or less aligned

00:20:28.200 with many of their goals.

00:20:30.000 I know some of my

00:20:30.860 English followers

00:20:32.300 are screaming right now

00:20:33.420 about that.

00:20:34.100 But, you know,

00:20:34.920 generally at least

00:20:36.020 somewhat culturally aligned

00:20:37.600 with kind of that.

00:20:39.600 We don't have that option.

00:20:40.920 We can't just hand

00:20:41.860 this thing off

00:20:42.620 to China or somebody.

00:20:44.160 So what would it look like

00:20:45.740 for the United States

00:20:46.920 to scale back

00:20:48.040 those operations

00:20:49.060 and exist inside

00:20:50.180 a multipolar framework

00:20:51.340 without surrendering

00:20:52.940 entirely

00:20:53.780 kind of that

00:20:55.180 the great power status

00:20:56.620 that it wields?

00:20:58.820 Well, I, you know,

00:21:00.720 in my view,

00:21:02.060 I think that would

00:21:03.180 if you kind of go

00:21:04.580 throughout the various,

00:21:05.540 you know,

00:21:05.940 theaters of the world,

00:21:06.860 I think in Europe 0.66

00:21:07.780 that would mean

00:21:09.760 the United States

00:21:11.180 having an exit strategy

00:21:13.380 when it came to NATO

00:21:15.180 over a period of,

00:21:17.260 say, 10 years

00:21:18.100 so that the European 0.88

00:21:19.320 countries slowly

00:21:20.320 can be providing

00:21:21.300 for their own defense

00:21:22.500 and really stepping up

00:21:23.660 there in the United States,

00:21:25.300 still remaining active

00:21:26.240 diplomatically,

00:21:27.600 but not so much militarily.

00:21:29.840 I think in the Middle East,

00:21:32.400 it's a similar situation

00:21:34.060 where the United States

00:21:38.280 could scale back

00:21:39.480 and it's going to probably

00:21:40.180 look ugly

00:21:41.180 in the early stages

00:21:43.020 as there's a new balancing

00:21:44.500 that's being sorted out.

00:21:46.100 And then I would say

00:21:46.940 after those two maneuvers

00:21:48.740 or while those two maneuvers

00:21:49.940 are taking place,

00:21:51.760 I think America

00:21:53.700 is in a great power competition

00:21:55.620 with China.

00:21:57.000 And, you know,

00:21:57.700 I would put more

00:21:58.560 of an emphasis

00:21:59.120 on naval supremacy

00:22:00.740 and, you know,

00:22:02.440 maintaining our sea power

00:22:04.720 so that we can still,

00:22:06.680 you know,

00:22:07.140 keep trade lanes

00:22:08.420 relatively open

00:22:09.320 and maintain dominance

00:22:11.260 on the sea.

00:22:12.660 So that's, you know,

00:22:13.600 I'm not a foreign policy expert,

00:22:15.560 but I think that's

00:22:16.840 what it would look like.

00:22:18.540 And I think the transition

00:22:20.300 in Europe would probably

00:22:21.300 be the easiest one.

00:22:23.480 And then the Middle East

00:22:25.020 would be a little more tricky

00:22:26.140 as we saw

00:22:27.040 what the rebalancing

00:22:27.800 looked like.

00:22:28.480 And I think there'd be

00:22:29.100 more agreement

00:22:29.720 on the maintaining

00:22:31.040 the sea power

00:22:31.840 and having a harder line

00:22:33.720 against, you know,

00:22:35.380 Chinese expansion.

00:22:36.420 We hope you're enjoying

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00:23:05.640 LassierCanada.com

00:23:06.820 Yeah, I think it's difficult

00:23:08.380 for a lot of people.

00:23:10.060 You know, I mean,

00:23:10.600 we saw what happened

00:23:11.700 with, you know,

00:23:13.300 kind of the events

00:23:14.080 in Gaza

00:23:14.720 and how quickly

00:23:16.120 a right that had

00:23:17.620 more or less said,

00:23:18.760 no, we're no longer

00:23:19.680 for foreign power

00:23:20.440 policy interventionism.

00:23:22.440 All of a sudden,

00:23:23.280 there was an incredible,

00:23:24.200 you know, amnesia

00:23:25.220 that swept over

00:23:26.280 everyone who had just

00:23:27.320 learned that lesson.

00:23:28.460 I think it's difficult

00:23:29.680 because people are so used

00:23:30.980 to feeling that America

00:23:32.500 is making decisions

00:23:34.660 in countries

00:23:35.920 even if it's

00:23:36.860 by just not being involved.

00:23:38.280 So if you do not

00:23:39.200 immediately send aid

00:23:41.000 to Israel

00:23:41.560 or you don't immediately

00:23:42.520 militarily intervene

00:23:44.420 in Ukraine

00:23:45.000 or you're not somehow,

00:23:46.740 you know,

00:23:47.480 immediately taking an action

00:23:49.320 no matter where it is

00:23:50.380 around the world,

00:23:51.440 that the United States

00:23:52.180 is therefore making a choice

00:23:53.860 in that scenario.

00:23:55.480 And to be fair,

00:23:56.600 I guess that's true

00:23:57.380 when you're a global hegemon,

00:23:58.700 right?

00:23:58.880 Like when everyone

00:23:59.840 is looking to you

00:24:01.060 to say,

00:24:01.440 OK, well,

00:24:01.960 does America put its thumb

00:24:03.140 on the scale or not?

00:24:04.600 Then no decision

00:24:05.520 is as good as a decision.

00:24:07.480 But part of being

00:24:07.980 a multipolar kind of world,

00:24:10.400 I think,

00:24:10.780 would be understanding

00:24:11.720 that other countries

00:24:12.420 are going to have

00:24:13.180 spheres of influence.

00:24:14.580 Other civilizations

00:24:15.180 will have those

00:24:16.000 and understanding

00:24:16.940 that it's not your job

00:24:18.220 to necessarily step in

00:24:19.720 the moment

00:24:20.120 that they decide

00:24:20.720 to make decisions,

00:24:21.340 even if something terrible

00:24:22.220 happens along those lines.

00:24:24.380 Definitely.

00:24:25.040 And I think that

00:24:25.960 one of the things

00:24:27.140 we're realizing,

00:24:28.180 and this gets back

00:24:29.080 to the administrative state

00:24:31.280 and the deep state

00:24:32.180 and the oligarchic class, 0.97

00:24:34.760 is that when there's

00:24:36.220 a big, you know,

00:24:37.080 foreign policy,

00:24:38.220 let's say when Russia 0.82

00:24:39.080 invades Ukraine,

00:24:40.060 for example,

00:24:41.560 often in these situations,

00:24:43.940 right,

00:24:44.160 it's not Congress

00:24:46.300 that begins deliberating

00:24:48.080 at first.

00:24:48.820 It's not even the president

00:24:49.780 who often says,

00:24:50.980 you know,

00:24:51.660 let's go and start

00:24:52.560 moving these things.

00:24:53.740 It's actually the,

00:24:54.660 you know,

00:24:54.980 the State Department

00:24:56.020 and the Department of Defense.

00:24:57.020 The mechanism of responding

00:24:59.300 to every crisis

00:25:00.500 around the world,

00:25:01.440 it almost begins automatically

00:25:03.200 from within the bureaucracy,

00:25:05.300 regardless of if the president

00:25:06.560 wants to do it or not,

00:25:08.240 or regardless of if there's

00:25:09.400 a debate in Congress at all,

00:25:11.420 which I think gets back

00:25:12.720 to the problem

00:25:14.800 that I raised earlier

00:25:16.440 in my piece,

00:25:17.220 which is as conservatives,

00:25:19.700 we obviously want to defeat

00:25:22.600 the administrative state.

00:25:23.880 We want to write,

00:25:24.620 you know,

00:25:24.800 the direction of the country,

00:25:26.020 but you're in a really

00:25:27.240 challenging position

00:25:28.600 when you don't actually

00:25:30.980 control any of the

00:25:32.120 major institutions.

00:25:33.020 It would be one thing

00:25:34.000 if it was just one or two

00:25:35.680 of the institutions,

00:25:36.500 but you just go across

00:25:38.300 the board

00:25:38.880 and they're all in the hands

00:25:39.880 of the opposition.

00:25:41.040 So you have this,

00:25:41.700 you know,

00:25:42.620 the populist sort of

00:25:43.740 backlash and revolt,

00:25:45.020 but then you get someone

00:25:45.840 like Trump in office

00:25:46.820 and then sort of

00:25:48.160 the whole institutions

00:25:49.040 are trying to just

00:25:50.200 basically go radioactive

00:25:51.480 to get this pathogen

00:25:52.740 out of the system,

00:25:54.200 no matter what,

00:25:55.400 you know,

00:25:56.660 at any cost.

00:25:58.220 And so I think

00:25:58.800 the problem that we face

00:26:00.400 is how can you

00:26:02.220 defeat the oligarchy?

00:26:04.040 And I think it's hard

00:26:05.260 if you're just locked in

00:26:07.180 a head-to-head combat

00:26:09.260 with it when you don't

00:26:10.220 have any power.

00:26:11.100 So as we're kind of

00:26:12.200 thinking about the politics

00:26:13.240 of transcendence,

00:26:14.400 it's figuring out,

00:26:15.580 can you transcend

00:26:16.960 the oligarchy?

00:26:18.020 Can you go above

00:26:19.100 the problem

00:26:19.900 instead of tackling it

00:26:21.580 head on?

00:26:22.320 Yeah,

00:26:23.620 and that was definitely

00:26:24.480 something I was going

00:26:25.160 to get to.

00:26:25.680 You know,

00:26:25.860 you're talking about

00:26:26.660 strengthening,

00:26:27.260 you know,

00:26:27.900 the naval profile

00:26:29.240 and those things.

00:26:29.860 And of course,

00:26:30.420 that's perfectly reasonable

00:26:31.720 as long as your military

00:26:33.140 isn't primarily

00:26:34.460 now being trained

00:26:35.600 to hate the people

00:26:36.380 of the United States,

00:26:37.620 you know.

00:26:38.240 But the problem is

00:26:39.300 that the strengthening

00:26:40.080 of any institution

00:26:41.360 at this point,

00:26:41.980 like you said,

00:26:42.880 is the strengthening

00:26:43.680 of kind of people

00:26:45.320 who often are working

00:26:46.700 against the interests

00:26:47.680 of the United States

00:26:49.220 because the way

00:26:50.040 that the left

00:26:50.600 has just obtained

00:26:53.140 dominance

00:26:53.680 in all of those areas.

00:26:55.960 I have heard,

00:26:57.580 so I don't know

00:26:58.560 if you read

00:26:58.980 Patrick Deneen's

00:27:00.020 latest book,

00:27:01.060 The Regime Change book.

00:27:02.580 I did.

00:27:03.040 I have to say,

00:27:04.320 I love how liberalism failed,

00:27:08.020 but I felt like

00:27:09.740 that book was lacking

00:27:11.380 because it talked

00:27:13.380 a lot about,

00:27:14.680 you know,

00:27:15.700 perhaps,

00:27:16.780 you know,

00:27:17.640 how we can think

00:27:19.040 for the good of,

00:27:20.460 work for the goods

00:27:21.680 of the nation

00:27:22.340 and those kind of things.

00:27:23.420 There's a lot of that,

00:27:25.020 restoring that kind

00:27:26.200 of common bond,

00:27:27.200 those kind of things.

00:27:28.820 But it never felt

00:27:30.020 like there was a way

00:27:31.200 that the institutions

00:27:32.500 themselves would flip.

00:27:34.380 You know what I mean?

00:27:34.900 Like, it was like,

00:27:35.400 well, we could have

00:27:36.360 everyone guarantee service.

00:27:37.640 It's like,

00:27:38.040 well, you could guarantee

00:27:38.900 service to a state

00:27:40.280 that hates you.

00:27:40.920 It's like,

00:27:41.220 well, we could,

00:27:42.200 you know,

00:27:42.460 we could,

00:27:43.260 you know,

00:27:43.900 change the way

00:27:44.460 we funnel educational focus.

00:27:46.340 It's like, okay,

00:27:47.160 but it's still owned

00:27:48.360 by people,

00:27:48.900 you know what I mean?

00:27:49.740 And so like,

00:27:50.460 there's a scenario

00:27:51.180 where it was like,

00:27:52.480 well, here's the things

00:27:53.220 I would like to do

00:27:53.840 once the regime

00:27:54.560 has changed,

00:27:55.940 which is great.

00:27:56.820 Like a lot of them

00:27:57.720 sound good in theory,

00:27:59.020 but it felt like

00:28:00.220 all of them were things

00:28:01.260 that would never

00:28:01.760 actually bring that about.

00:28:03.200 And I think,

00:28:03.740 you know,

00:28:03.940 when you're talking

00:28:04.480 about that politics

00:28:05.220 of transcendence,

00:28:06.200 it is important,

00:28:07.460 I think,

00:28:08.020 to once again,

00:28:09.540 kind of locate

00:28:10.440 the good,

00:28:11.240 the common vision,

00:28:12.160 the common moral vision

00:28:13.180 for people

00:28:14.320 and tie that directly

00:28:15.840 into their governance,

00:28:17.000 governance,

00:28:17.480 that it's not about

00:28:18.160 just, you know,

00:28:19.140 figuring out the angles

00:28:20.260 or the edges

00:28:21.080 experts do running

00:28:22.420 all the numbers,

00:28:23.120 but there's a shared identity

00:28:25.020 and a shared goal

00:28:26.020 and those things

00:28:26.700 are actually tied directly

00:28:28.260 to the way

00:28:28.680 that statesmen operate.

00:28:29.760 Like all of those things

00:28:30.640 sound great

00:28:32.000 and I'm on board

00:28:32.660 with all of them,

00:28:33.560 but it's that bridge,

00:28:35.300 you know,

00:28:35.540 it feels like there's

00:28:36.100 that elephant in the room

00:28:37.940 that's a mile wide

00:28:39.040 and that's the thing

00:28:40.220 that I'm concerned about,

00:28:42.120 even though I agree

00:28:42.800 a hundred percent

00:28:43.460 would they need

00:28:44.120 to link those things together?

00:28:46.000 Sure.

00:28:46.840 So, yeah,

00:28:47.540 that's a tough question.

00:28:49.740 I think there are,

00:28:51.800 so I guess

00:28:52.500 if we're,

00:28:53.040 if we want to go to more

00:28:54.340 sort of a practical level,

00:28:57.080 if you take,

00:28:58.780 no, it's a question,

00:28:59.600 there's still the question

00:29:00.360 of institutions

00:29:01.060 in the long term,

00:29:01.840 but I think if you take

00:29:02.660 a look at DeSantis

00:29:04.360 in Florida, right,

00:29:05.620 you have a state

00:29:06.340 that was basically,

00:29:07.760 you know,

00:29:08.200 a purple state,

00:29:09.340 kind of,

00:29:09.660 it could go either way

00:29:11.860 and he wins a narrow election

00:29:13.760 there his first time

00:29:14.740 as governor

00:29:15.260 and I think

00:29:16.260 what's important

00:29:17.560 is that in that

00:29:18.560 first time,

00:29:20.340 you know,

00:29:20.580 that he was elected,

00:29:21.520 I think the main areas

00:29:22.680 that he focused on,

00:29:23.840 they were risky areas

00:29:25.220 from a national perspective

00:29:26.700 because people were going crazy

00:29:27.860 with the COVID lockdowns

00:29:29.000 and things like that,

00:29:29.820 but I think

00:29:30.420 is he really put

00:29:31.520 all his eggs

00:29:32.060 in the basket

00:29:32.780 of policies

00:29:33.520 that were really popular,

00:29:35.640 you know,

00:29:35.940 that they were,

00:29:36.720 some of them were bold,

00:29:37.560 like not shutting

00:29:38.120 the state down

00:29:38.840 and sending kids

00:29:39.500 back to school

00:29:40.160 and things like that,

00:29:41.520 you know,

00:29:42.880 really fighting back

00:29:43.860 against the excesses

00:29:44.940 of the woke ideology,

00:29:46.540 but he focused

00:29:47.660 on this popular policies

00:29:50.020 and that allowed him

00:29:51.960 to build

00:29:52.680 almost a 20 point majority

00:29:54.420 going into his second term

00:29:55.960 and then he was able

00:29:57.300 to deliver

00:29:57.860 sort of concretely

00:29:59.140 on reforms

00:30:00.040 that I think

00:30:01.000 will hopefully

00:30:01.580 be more structural

00:30:02.720 and longer term

00:30:04.160 and so my hope

00:30:05.320 would be

00:30:06.060 that at a national scale,

00:30:08.840 that there are

00:30:09.580 enough Americans 0.97

00:30:11.060 that for as much

00:30:13.220 as we lament,

00:30:14.780 forgive the bright beam

00:30:16.140 of sun

00:30:16.680 pouring in over my shoulder.

00:30:18.560 You're transcending

00:30:19.140 right in front of us.

00:30:20.280 Transcending right now.

00:30:21.220 Is that for,

00:30:22.000 you know,

00:30:22.180 that there's enough

00:30:23.340 of the population

00:30:24.480 that is fed up

00:30:27.020 with crime,

00:30:28.200 is fed up with,

00:30:29.040 you know,

00:30:29.540 the situation

00:30:30.780 at the southern border,

00:30:32.300 is fed up with,

00:30:33.100 you know,

00:30:33.260 kind of go down

00:30:34.000 the line of issues

00:30:35.300 that you could build

00:30:36.660 a 60,

00:30:37.400 70,

00:30:38.240 80% majority

00:30:39.660 beside,

00:30:41.020 you know,

00:30:41.220 behind some serious policies

00:30:42.880 and then use that

00:30:44.940 for maybe a second term

00:30:46.140 where you engage

00:30:47.500 in more radical,

00:30:48.500 you know,

00:30:50.080 sort of rethinking

00:30:51.600 of the way

00:30:52.760 that we do politics.

00:30:54.120 In my piece,

00:30:54.820 I really focus

00:30:55.540 on two core areas

00:30:57.760 because you can't fight

00:30:58.840 every battle

00:30:59.700 all at the same time.

00:31:00.840 It's just impossible,

00:31:01.680 right?

00:31:01.880 So you have to pick

00:31:02.580 either the areas

00:31:04.120 where they're the weakest

00:31:04.900 or areas where,

00:31:06.720 you know,

00:31:08.880 for example,

00:31:10.120 education is one

00:31:11.200 where I think

00:31:11.660 that's really the heart

00:31:13.300 of, you know,

00:31:14.620 of all of the problems

00:31:16.160 that we're currently

00:31:16.980 facing in America today.

00:31:18.400 So you have to think

00:31:19.660 of ways

00:31:20.100 that you could totally

00:31:21.120 dismantle

00:31:23.680 that educational apparatus.

00:31:26.920 And so I think

00:31:27.920 that's one area

00:31:28.600 that we need

00:31:29.080 to start thinking creatively.

00:31:30.720 And I think

00:31:31.340 there is a sense

00:31:32.260 where,

00:31:33.140 you know,

00:31:34.440 fighting on DEI

00:31:36.720 and woke issues

00:31:37.940 will work

00:31:39.360 to an extent.

00:31:41.620 But I also think

00:31:42.640 there are other ways

00:31:43.500 where it's just structurally,

00:31:44.720 even if DEI

00:31:46.140 or woke

00:31:46.840 wasn't a thing,

00:31:47.860 right?

00:31:48.060 And we were just back

00:31:48.820 20, 30 years ago.

00:31:50.220 You had multiculturalism then,

00:31:51.880 but it wasn't quite

00:31:52.460 as pernicious

00:31:52.940 as it is now.

00:31:54.000 I think there still

00:31:54.620 are some major

00:31:55.300 structural problems

00:31:56.360 with our education system,

00:31:58.260 which is simply

00:31:59.780 that it's just

00:32:00.260 not necessary

00:32:01.300 to send,

00:32:02.580 you know,

00:32:02.840 a third of your population

00:32:04.160 to essentially

00:32:04.860 take on,

00:32:06.080 you know,

00:32:06.580 20, 40, 60,

00:32:08.040 80,000 in debt

00:32:09.200 to go to basically

00:32:10.280 resorts for four years

00:32:11.860 where they're learning

00:32:12.820 things that are just

00:32:13.640 simply not relevant

00:32:14.700 to either the moral foundation,

00:32:17.440 the political foundation,

00:32:18.460 or economic foundation

00:32:19.600 of the country,

00:32:20.260 but even just practically

00:32:21.380 to their job.

00:32:22.320 So I think there are ways

00:32:23.260 in which you could talk

00:32:24.720 to most people

00:32:25.400 and say,

00:32:26.120 you know,

00:32:26.840 you can't set the woke stuff

00:32:28.020 aside because that's

00:32:29.000 very important,

00:32:29.600 but even just,

00:32:30.520 just looking at it

00:32:31.460 from the perspective

00:32:32.100 of excellence,

00:32:32.800 is the educational model

00:32:34.400 delivering for Americans?

00:32:36.000 I think 80% of Americans

00:32:37.240 would say absolutely not,

00:32:39.160 you know,

00:32:39.560 and I think if you were to,

00:32:40.740 if you were to shift

00:32:41.860 to a model that focused

00:32:43.400 more on apprenticeships

00:32:44.740 and vocational training,

00:32:45.980 you could really take

00:32:47.080 a lot of the power

00:32:48.120 out of the current

00:32:49.660 left-wing university system

00:32:51.300 and you'd actually

00:32:52.200 be delivering in a way

00:32:53.440 for broader swaths

00:32:55.220 of the American people

00:32:56.080 and kind of reducing

00:32:57.220 polarization

00:32:58.400 while hopefully making us

00:32:59.820 sort of wealthier

00:33:01.080 and people better off.

00:33:03.000 So that's,

00:33:03.360 you know,

00:33:03.560 that's one idea,

00:33:05.080 but I'm sure there are

00:33:06.020 many, many others.

00:33:07.980 No,

00:33:08.140 I think it's critical

00:33:09.200 to dismantle those things.

00:33:10.460 Like you said,

00:33:10.840 so much of the

00:33:11.940 conservative mindset

00:33:14.380 has just been

00:33:15.440 this scattershot.

00:33:17.040 It's this constant response

00:33:18.640 that they're doing.

00:33:20.280 You know,

00:33:20.560 whatever issue is currently

00:33:21.540 being waived in front of them,

00:33:23.020 there's never a focus

00:33:24.100 on,

00:33:25.000 okay,

00:33:25.640 yes,

00:33:26.120 we have political power,

00:33:27.380 but we could use this

00:33:28.680 to simultaneously

00:33:29.560 better the situation

00:33:31.280 of those that we're

00:33:32.700 supposed to represent

00:33:33.400 while also removing

00:33:35.640 the ability of our enemies

00:33:36.760 to kind of wield this power.

00:33:38.360 And so I think it's critical

00:33:39.820 for those steps.

00:33:40.760 You know,

00:33:40.860 I'm certainly not going to ask you

00:33:41.940 to figure out the entire transition

00:33:43.800 because that's a monumental task

00:33:45.420 for everybody.

00:33:46.020 But,

00:33:46.280 but I think it's important

00:33:47.600 to mix,

00:33:48.460 like you said there,

00:33:49.900 that,

00:33:50.340 you know,

00:33:50.660 looking high and looking low

00:33:52.020 because if you want to,

00:33:53.080 if it's difficult

00:33:54.540 for a lot of people,

00:33:56.020 conservatives too,

00:33:56.880 honestly,

00:33:57.480 to think about a politics

00:33:58.860 of transcendence,

00:33:59.820 because again,

00:34:00.840 it's all about these,

00:34:02.160 you know,

00:34:02.440 I want,

00:34:03.140 I paid X amount of money

00:34:04.720 to a politician.

00:34:05.600 I made a donation.

00:34:06.560 I did the thing.

00:34:07.200 And I want to see like

00:34:08.540 my taxes go down 5%,

00:34:10.380 right?

00:34:10.760 Like there's this,

00:34:11.520 this tit for tat directly.

00:34:13.100 And that's important.

00:34:13.980 You know,

00:34:14.180 you,

00:34:14.400 you,

00:34:14.620 you need that.

00:34:15.280 But also if you're going

00:34:16.460 to connect to something

00:34:17.800 that that's going to shift

00:34:19.040 the way that people view

00:34:22.500 kind of the,

00:34:23.180 the,

00:34:23.680 the moral vision

00:34:24.460 of the United States,

00:34:25.160 the purpose of its institutions,

00:34:26.720 the thing that it's going

00:34:27.540 to bring its connection

00:34:28.900 to,

00:34:29.420 to kind of its statement,

00:34:31.140 statesmen and its leaders,

00:34:32.500 that's going to take

00:34:34.020 a much deeper pull.

00:34:36.120 That's going to require people

00:34:37.200 to look far beyond

00:34:38.500 those,

00:34:39.460 those small issues.

00:34:40.360 so you simultaneously have to

00:34:41.500 figure out how to leverage

00:34:42.500 away the power

00:34:44.000 of the administrative state

00:34:45.100 like you're talking about.

00:34:46.940 But you also have to figure

00:34:48.220 out how to shift

00:34:48.980 the mindset of people

00:34:50.120 who have been locked

00:34:50.920 into this very small

00:34:53.020 ball version of politics,

00:34:54.520 you know,

00:34:55.060 where,

00:34:55.320 where it's all about

00:34:56.100 making sure that you

00:34:57.440 reduce the marginal tax

00:34:58.680 rate here or shrink

00:34:59.820 the size of government

00:35:01.120 by 1% somewhere,

00:35:02.460 as opposed to

00:35:03.540 a real mindset shift

00:35:05.960 when it comes to the way

00:35:06.920 that,

00:35:07.180 that people are viewing

00:35:07.920 the government.

00:35:08.720 And so I,

00:35:09.820 I guess the question is,

00:35:11.240 you know,

00:35:12.480 alongside those

00:35:14.120 more practical things

00:35:15.600 that you were just

00:35:16.140 talking about,

00:35:17.300 what is a,

00:35:18.120 what is a mindset shift

00:35:19.600 that you would like to see

00:35:20.880 that would allow people

00:35:22.480 to have that,

00:35:23.200 that a better understanding

00:35:24.920 of the way that kind of

00:35:26.240 maybe the common good

00:35:28.220 or the good of people

00:35:29.200 should be tied

00:35:29.900 as opposed to

00:35:30.760 a particular economic ideology

00:35:32.880 or a particular,

00:35:33.980 you know,

00:35:35.200 economic policy?

00:35:37.060 Sure.

00:35:37.120 Yeah,

00:35:37.840 I think this gets to

00:35:38.620 something really important,

00:35:40.020 which is,

00:35:40.660 you know,

00:35:40.880 part of the reason

00:35:41.600 that I'm proposing

00:35:42.400 this politics of,

00:35:43.600 of transcendence

00:35:44.920 is that in the,

00:35:48.120 the,

00:35:48.760 I think in the,

00:35:50.020 the response to,

00:35:52.180 for the past 30 years,

00:35:53.060 we had a highly idealistic,

00:35:54.780 abstract understanding

00:35:56.900 of America,

00:35:57.680 right,

00:35:58.380 that we were going

00:35:59.000 to export to the world.

00:36:00.260 And it was,

00:36:01.200 you know,

00:36:01.520 a combination

00:36:02.040 of political liberalism

00:36:03.560 and,

00:36:04.020 and,

00:36:04.340 and neoliberal economics.

00:36:05.980 And the response

00:36:08.840 to that

00:36:09.440 has been the rise

00:36:10.740 of,

00:36:11.060 you know,

00:36:11.460 populist nationalism.

00:36:13.700 And I think there,

00:36:15.040 there's something healthy

00:36:15.920 about that,

00:36:16.620 which is,

00:36:17.600 it's,

00:36:17.940 it's basically saying,

00:36:18.840 okay,

00:36:19.020 so we need,

00:36:19.580 we need to get back

00:36:20.300 to an understanding

00:36:21.040 of what serves

00:36:21.600 American interests

00:36:22.500 and the American people

00:36:23.620 and the American nation.

00:36:25.340 But I think it's not enough

00:36:27.960 if we stop with,

00:36:29.780 with realism

00:36:30.860 and if we stop

00:36:32.340 with an interest-based

00:36:33.600 approach to politics.

00:36:34.800 The reason is,

00:36:36.000 is because if you look

00:36:37.180 all the way back

00:36:37.900 throughout human history,

00:36:39.720 you know,

00:36:40.340 great leaders don't focus,

00:36:43.800 you know,

00:36:44.120 their,

00:36:44.240 their policies do benefit

00:36:45.460 the interests

00:36:45.980 of their constituents,

00:36:46.780 but,

00:36:47.620 but great leaders

00:36:48.680 never frame things

00:36:49.740 purely in materialistic,

00:36:52.280 realist terms,

00:36:53.880 right?

00:36:54.160 They have to have

00:36:54.980 a transcendent vision

00:36:56.000 and back in the,

00:36:57.040 sort of the ancient world,

00:36:58.760 right?

00:36:59.400 You,

00:36:59.780 the,

00:37:00.040 the political leader

00:37:01.080 was a link between

00:37:02.520 heaven and earth,

00:37:03.580 right?

00:37:03.860 This is sort of ubiquitous

00:37:05.520 in nearly every kind

00:37:06.840 of ancient culture

00:37:08.200 and for various reasons

00:37:10.660 throughout the Middle Ages

00:37:12.380 that began to unravel

00:37:14.500 and then sort of

00:37:15.440 with the Enlightenment

00:37:16.340 that kind of cord

00:37:17.840 ended up snapping.

00:37:19.160 But the,

00:37:20.140 the reality is

00:37:21.480 that that,

00:37:23.500 that understanding

00:37:24.720 of kind of

00:37:25.460 the,

00:37:25.740 the,

00:37:26.000 the political leader

00:37:27.520 sort of pointing people

00:37:28.660 towards more transcendent,

00:37:30.840 more ultimate ends,

00:37:31.860 that never actually

00:37:33.080 went away.

00:37:34.100 It's sort of impossible

00:37:35.100 to make that type

00:37:36.160 of thing go away.

00:37:37.120 And,

00:37:37.640 and you see in America

00:37:38.760 the development,

00:37:40.000 well,

00:37:40.200 we never had a,

00:37:41.340 you know,

00:37:41.520 a formal,

00:37:42.700 the national level

00:37:43.600 and established church.

00:37:45.240 Americans looked 0.85

00:37:46.340 to their leaders

00:37:47.240 to point them

00:37:48.280 towards the transcendent.

00:37:49.820 they,

00:37:50.880 they developed

00:37:51.780 a civil religion,

00:37:52.920 right?

00:37:53.820 With,

00:37:54.080 with a very active sense

00:37:55.760 of the role of providence,

00:37:57.380 the role of the republic

00:37:58.920 in this story

00:38:01.180 of liberty

00:38:01.680 playing out

00:38:02.260 in a cosmic way

00:38:03.500 and God intervening

00:38:04.700 on behalf

00:38:05.280 of,

00:38:05.620 of the country.

00:38:06.240 You see this,

00:38:07.180 if you look at the,

00:38:07.880 the Thanksgiving Day

00:38:08.820 proclamations,

00:38:09.640 you see it,

00:38:10.460 you know,

00:38:10.700 in George Washington

00:38:11.620 saying it's the duty

00:38:12.880 of all nations

00:38:13.660 to obey God.

00:38:14.980 You know,

00:38:15.120 he's talking about nations,

00:38:16.200 not just individuals.

00:38:17.560 You see it in Lincoln

00:38:18.960 in all his speeches,

00:38:20.060 the Lyceum address.

00:38:21.760 You see it in his

00:38:23.360 Gettysburg address.

00:38:24.880 You see it in Teddy Roosevelt

00:38:26.060 saying,

00:38:26.640 look,

00:38:27.000 the things of the,

00:38:27.800 the body of our

00:38:28.760 lower order,

00:38:30.200 right?

00:38:30.420 As a civilization,

00:38:31.200 as a nation,

00:38:31.800 we need to prioritize

00:38:32.700 the things of the soul.

00:38:33.980 Even in FDR's

00:38:35.660 first inaugural address,

00:38:38.280 he uses the biblical imagery

00:38:39.940 of,

00:38:40.340 of chasing the money changers

00:38:41.940 out of the temple,

00:38:43.080 you know,

00:38:43.400 and sort of restoring

00:38:44.820 kind of these old truths

00:38:46.880 back to their place

00:38:47.880 and the sacred,

00:38:48.720 you know,

00:38:49.140 go all the way out

00:38:50.200 throughout American history,

00:38:51.800 even the more liberal,

00:38:53.320 you know,

00:38:53.940 if you go to Barack Obama,

00:38:55.200 you know,

00:38:55.400 like these are transcendent,

00:38:56.800 they're leaning into

00:38:57.480 transcendent themes,

00:38:59.600 you know,

00:38:59.840 and so I think that

00:39:01.060 if conservatives

00:39:02.400 are going to win,

00:39:03.560 and I think this is tough

00:39:04.880 because I do think

00:39:05.720 there is,

00:39:06.820 in,

00:39:07.040 in some ways,

00:39:08.020 there's an,

00:39:08.740 there is a,

00:39:09.460 there's a weird sense

00:39:10.340 where there actually

00:39:11.000 haven't really been

00:39:12.040 that many,

00:39:13.180 you know,

00:39:15.480 I would say,

00:39:17.000 even though America

00:39:17.920 is kind of at its root

00:39:19.620 a Protestant nation,

00:39:20.760 I don't think there's,

00:39:22.580 there's been in recent memory

00:39:23.980 very many kind of

00:39:25.100 pious evangelicals

00:39:27.020 in,

00:39:27.320 in,

00:39:27.620 in top leadership positions

00:39:29.180 sort of in the American presidency.

00:39:30.740 So you actually have a,

00:39:31.980 there's an odd sense

00:39:33.280 in which I think Americans

00:39:34.500 are very receptive

00:39:36.400 to the American civil religion

00:39:38.820 understood in transcendent terms,

00:39:40.980 and they're a little bit

00:39:42.360 more uncomfortable

00:39:42.980 with kind of a Mike Pence style

00:39:45.100 evangelical approach.

00:39:48.800 Right.

00:39:49.320 And,

00:39:49.480 and I don't know

00:39:50.260 all the reasons

00:39:50.820 why that is the case,

00:39:52.060 but I think it's,

00:39:53.520 you know,

00:39:53.720 I think it's true,

00:39:54.840 but regardless,

00:39:55.660 I think there is a way

00:39:56.560 to look at our own tradition

00:39:57.920 and to kind of look back

00:39:59.120 at this ancient tradition.

00:40:01.040 And I'm not saying

00:40:02.020 that,

00:40:02.320 that America needs

00:40:03.600 to,

00:40:04.140 to adopt

00:40:05.080 sort of an ancient

00:40:05.980 Mesopotamian understanding

00:40:07.360 of sort of

00:40:08.100 a God King,

00:40:09.580 right?

00:40:09.780 That's,

00:40:10.040 that's not what I'm calling for.

00:40:11.960 What I'm saying is

00:40:12.700 there needs to be

00:40:13.420 a politics of,

00:40:14.480 of transcendence

00:40:16.080 where leaders are pointing us

00:40:17.280 towards these ultimate ends.

00:40:18.820 And then that should be

00:40:19.840 accompanied by

00:40:20.920 a politics of the common good

00:40:22.960 that is seeking to restore

00:40:24.740 and help ordinary Americans

00:40:26.500 live lives of virtue

00:40:28.180 and have,

00:40:29.200 you know,

00:40:29.500 flourishing families,

00:40:30.860 flourishing economic lives

00:40:33.340 and securing those,

00:40:34.400 those common goods

00:40:35.360 of the community.

00:40:36.020 And then I think finally

00:40:37.300 restoring a politics of beauty,

00:40:39.540 you know,

00:40:40.000 if you look back

00:40:40.700 at the great leaders

00:40:42.320 throughout history,

00:40:42.940 they were builders.

00:40:43.820 They were builders

00:40:44.320 of monuments,

00:40:45.720 of national parks,

00:40:47.380 of cathedrals.

00:40:48.580 Like,

00:40:48.900 they really elevated

00:40:50.260 their civilization

00:40:51.940 and that beauty

00:40:53.720 endured for centuries.

00:40:55.160 And,

00:40:55.360 you know,

00:40:55.500 I think if you look,

00:40:56.280 look at America

00:40:56.960 500 years from now,

00:40:58.480 you will see

00:40:59.180 the beautiful monuments

00:41:00.340 on the,

00:41:01.780 the mall.

00:41:02.540 You know,

00:41:02.700 when you fly into

00:41:03.680 Washington,

00:41:04.260 D.C.,

00:41:04.540 you look out

00:41:05.200 and you see

00:41:05.880 the Lincoln Memorial,

00:41:07.580 you see the Capitol,

00:41:08.600 you see the Washington Monument,

00:41:10.240 and these are sort of stirring

00:41:11.520 and ennobling the soul.

00:41:13.100 And so I think

00:41:13.440 we'd have to think about

00:41:14.340 building those types of things

00:41:16.040 that can really capture

00:41:17.020 the hearts and minds

00:41:18.020 of a new,

00:41:18.940 a new generation.

00:41:21.940 I agree with much of that.

00:41:23.440 And,

00:41:23.840 but I think,

00:41:24.660 so,

00:41:25.040 so I think,

00:41:25.900 I think you made a couple

00:41:26.620 interesting points

00:41:27.720 of analysis there

00:41:28.560 that are probably worth

00:41:29.420 going back

00:41:30.020 and pulling on the thread of.

00:41:31.460 so you said that

00:41:32.940 the,

00:41:33.160 you know,

00:41:33.460 the,

00:41:34.000 the left,

00:41:35.680 it leans into this

00:41:36.780 politics of transcendence

00:41:38.200 that guys like Barack Obama,

00:41:39.840 and I think you're exactly right.

00:41:41.080 You know,

00:41:41.280 there,

00:41:41.500 there's a reason that he gets

00:41:42.820 elected and all of a sudden

00:41:44.340 he starts talking about

00:41:45.180 how the waters are going to recede

00:41:46.980 and the,

00:41:47.400 you know,

00:41:47.620 like,

00:41:47.960 you know,

00:41:48.240 he talks about like he's

00:41:49.880 some kind of a Moses figure

00:41:51.500 that,

00:41:52.260 that's suddenly been elected.

00:41:53.460 I don't think that's a mistake,

00:41:54.780 but,

00:41:56.400 and you're right that the,

00:41:57.260 the,

00:41:57.600 the right is far more

00:41:58.620 uncomfortable with that.

00:41:59.760 They're,

00:41:59.940 they're far more uncomfortable

00:42:01.340 without they'll lean

00:42:02.320 into a civic religion,

00:42:03.480 but they won't lean

00:42:04.480 into a specifically

00:42:06.080 religious mindset

00:42:08.260 in some ways.

00:42:08.960 And I think that's

00:42:09.620 a bit of a problem

00:42:10.340 because I think the left

00:42:11.240 owns for better or for worse

00:42:13.260 the current definition

00:42:14.660 of the American civic religion,

00:42:16.080 which is kind of this

00:42:17.180 permanent liberation

00:42:18.980 of all bonds,

00:42:21.180 right?

00:42:21.420 Like this is,

00:42:22.120 this is kind of the,

00:42:23.520 the current iteration

00:42:24.760 of the American civic religion

00:42:26.680 is we have to get rid

00:42:28.060 of all differences of outcome.

00:42:29.860 We have to,

00:42:30.440 you know,

00:42:31.140 equity inclusion,

00:42:32.600 you know,

00:42:33.180 but,

00:42:33.640 but of course those have

00:42:34.940 specific loaded terms,

00:42:36.400 right?

00:42:37.060 They're not actually about

00:42:38.440 any kind of equal opportunity.

00:42:40.700 They're about a very specific

00:42:42.100 need for outcomes

00:42:44.240 to return.

00:42:45.400 It looks like we may have

00:42:46.220 lost John there

00:42:47.220 for a second.

00:42:47.820 So I'll talk for a moment.

00:42:49.660 Hopefully he'll be back soon.

00:42:51.600 But one of the things

00:42:52.600 I was going to ask John about

00:42:54.040 is that kind of

00:42:55.020 in our current scenario,

00:42:56.280 while I think he's right

00:42:57.900 that the left

00:42:58.800 own kind of

00:43:00.160 this,

00:43:00.660 this idea of the civic religion

00:43:02.720 and that they lean into it,

00:43:05.180 the right has a problem

00:43:05.960 because they don't know

00:43:06.760 what to coalesce around.

00:43:08.480 I think that he's right

00:43:09.800 that we need a

00:43:11.160 kind of a politics

00:43:12.920 of transcendence.

00:43:13.980 We need a vision

00:43:14.700 of the common good.

00:43:15.720 We need a politics

00:43:16.480 that pursues that.

00:43:18.240 But unfortunately,

00:43:19.300 in our current scenario,

00:43:20.760 there is no

00:43:21.780 united vision

00:43:23.100 of the United States.

00:43:25.060 I mean,

00:43:25.620 the left knows

00:43:26.400 what unites them,

00:43:27.780 their opposition

00:43:28.660 to what has been

00:43:30.220 the traditional

00:43:31.200 United States.

00:43:32.260 They don't like the people

00:43:33.060 who made up the United States.

00:43:34.280 They don't like

00:43:34.820 the Constitution,

00:43:36.560 the beliefs,

00:43:37.260 the religion,

00:43:38.400 those things.

00:43:39.080 Good to have you back there,

00:43:39.980 Johnny.

00:43:40.260 Yeah, I lost you for a second.

00:43:41.420 No problem.

00:43:42.900 It's always the excitement

00:43:44.620 of the Internet.

00:43:46.140 But I was just saying

00:43:47.020 to the audience,

00:43:47.940 you know,

00:43:48.220 what I was saying to you,

00:43:49.560 which is that,

00:43:50.900 you know,

00:43:51.140 I think you're right

00:43:52.400 that the left

00:43:53.000 leans into this

00:43:54.120 and that Americans 0.54

00:43:55.080 are more comfortable

00:43:56.060 with this idea

00:43:57.180 of the civic religion

00:43:58.080 than they are

00:43:58.600 with a specific

00:43:59.660 American kind of

00:44:01.300 religiosity.

00:44:03.160 However,

00:44:04.280 because the left

00:44:05.140 owns this vision

00:44:06.260 and largely the story

00:44:08.100 is the civil rights

00:44:09.060 vision, right?

00:44:10.040 That's pretty much

00:44:11.280 what dictates

00:44:11.920 the left's understanding

00:44:13.580 of kind of

00:44:14.700 what the American

00:44:15.820 civil religion could be.

00:44:17.760 It means it's hard

00:44:18.880 for the conservative movement

00:44:20.560 to really establish

00:44:21.380 a politics of transcendence

00:44:22.620 because they don't have

00:44:23.480 a shared vision

00:44:24.140 of the good.

00:44:24.820 Even when I talk to

00:44:25.940 local distance,

00:44:27.220 I don't talk to James Lindsay

00:44:28.500 because he blocked me,

00:44:29.240 but he loves to scream at me

00:44:30.460 from behind the block.

00:44:31.720 When people like this

00:44:32.760 are talking,

00:44:33.700 they don't have

00:44:34.540 a shared vision

00:44:36.000 on the right.

00:44:36.900 Like,

00:44:37.060 there is no shared

00:44:37.860 understanding of what

00:44:38.560 the American identity

00:44:39.420 would be

00:44:40.060 and what the good is.

00:44:41.180 Now,

00:44:41.320 the left might have

00:44:42.140 many different factions,

00:44:43.520 but they're at least

00:44:44.040 moving towards a direction

00:44:45.380 which is just kind of

00:44:46.360 this eternal march

00:44:47.480 of civil rights.

00:44:48.660 As for the right,

00:44:49.660 I don't think,

00:44:50.360 you know,

00:44:50.520 I think they want that

00:44:51.340 to kind of be part

00:44:51.940 of their story,

00:44:53.400 which is its own problem,

00:44:55.360 but they don't have

00:44:56.180 anything to separate themselves.

00:44:57.500 All they can be

00:44:58.000 is a weaker version

00:44:59.100 of the left.

00:44:59.700 And how would you create

00:45:01.320 a politics of transcendence

00:45:02.920 on the right

00:45:03.540 when it doesn't seem

00:45:05.180 to have an understanding

00:45:06.360 of even what that civic religion

00:45:07.720 would look like?

00:45:08.680 Yeah.

00:45:09.040 Well,

00:45:09.500 I think the challenge

00:45:10.780 with,

00:45:11.760 you know,

00:45:12.540 with America

00:45:13.180 is that in establishing

00:45:14.960 that independence,

00:45:16.740 right,

00:45:17.000 we broke from the,

00:45:18.620 we broke from England,

00:45:19.960 we broke from the aristocratic

00:45:21.240 tradition in England,

00:45:22.140 we sort of severed

00:45:23.400 those cords.

00:45:24.880 And even though our,

00:45:25.780 you know,

00:45:25.940 our common,

00:45:26.720 you know,

00:45:26.940 sort of the common law

00:45:27.920 tradition and other aspects

00:45:29.320 of that Anglo-American

00:45:30.300 tradition were preserved

00:45:32.020 in the United States,

00:45:33.060 we were charting out

00:45:35.340 in new waters,

00:45:36.460 right?

00:45:36.920 And part of that

00:45:37.880 was a project

00:45:38.680 of liberation

00:45:39.720 from some of these

00:45:40.960 older ways

00:45:42.900 of thinking

00:45:44.520 and approaching,

00:45:45.140 you know,

00:45:45.760 government

00:45:46.080 and the relationship

00:45:47.000 to the state.

00:45:47.680 And at the time

00:45:49.120 we were relying

00:45:49.800 in,

00:45:50.080 you know,

00:45:50.220 in our early republic

00:45:51.060 on,

00:45:51.840 you know,

00:45:52.280 very kind of learned

00:45:53.500 men,

00:45:54.720 you know,

00:45:54.900 think of people

00:45:55.500 like John Adams

00:45:56.460 or Thomas Jefferson

00:45:57.460 who had some

00:45:58.880 of these aristocratic

00:45:59.680 qualities,

00:46:00.260 but were going

00:46:01.020 to,

00:46:01.460 you know,

00:46:02.340 you know,

00:46:02.880 serve as the president

00:46:04.540 or serve in the Senate

00:46:05.520 and kind of elevate

00:46:06.500 this democratic republic

00:46:08.180 of ours.

00:46:08.960 And,

00:46:09.660 and there was

00:46:11.060 a process

00:46:12.180 of liberation

00:46:13.000 that occurred

00:46:14.000 to establish

00:46:14.620 the independence

00:46:15.360 of the American system.

00:46:17.220 The challenge

00:46:18.060 is how do you,

00:46:19.020 how do you stop

00:46:20.100 that process

00:46:21.460 of,

00:46:21.960 of independence

00:46:22.880 and liberation

00:46:23.680 once it's set

00:46:24.680 in motion?

00:46:25.600 How do you,

00:46:26.400 you know,

00:46:27.080 preserve some sort

00:46:28.400 of understanding

00:46:29.260 of a traditional

00:46:29.920 way of life

00:46:30.740 when Americans

00:46:31.600 are so entrepreneurial?

00:46:33.420 You know,

00:46:33.560 you read Alexis

00:46:34.640 de Tocqueville

00:46:35.200 and he says,

00:46:35.740 you know,

00:46:35.880 they buy a field

00:46:36.800 in the spring,

00:46:37.840 they plant their seeds

00:46:39.500 and before harvest

00:46:40.680 in the fall,

00:46:41.240 they've already sold it

00:46:42.100 and they've moved west,

00:46:43.340 you know,

00:46:43.580 for another plot of land.

00:46:44.700 This is a very,

00:46:46.100 that's not a conservative

00:46:47.180 impulse.

00:46:48.340 It's not necessarily

00:46:49.260 a bad impulse,

00:46:50.280 you know,

00:46:50.520 it's an energetic

00:46:51.460 entrepreneurial mindset

00:46:53.300 that sort of

00:46:54.560 is in,

00:46:55.000 in a tension

00:46:55.940 with tradition,

00:46:58.260 right?

00:46:58.560 And so,

00:46:59.100 there has to be

00:46:59.940 some way

00:47:00.520 that you have

00:47:01.440 a productive tension

00:47:02.780 between the innovation

00:47:03.940 and tradition

00:47:04.840 and I think

00:47:06.000 the,

00:47:06.440 the progressives

00:47:07.940 and the,

00:47:08.440 you know,

00:47:08.580 the liberals today

00:47:09.360 kind of follow,

00:47:10.980 it's not really

00:47:11.780 an alien path,

00:47:13.140 you know,

00:47:13.280 it's sort of

00:47:13.620 a natural path

00:47:14.740 for America

00:47:15.360 if you're not,

00:47:16.420 if America has,

00:47:17.640 once America has become

00:47:18.580 sort of unmoored,

00:47:19.900 you know,

00:47:20.260 from any kind of foundation.

00:47:22.120 So there has to be a way

00:47:23.780 and it's really like,

00:47:25.000 okay,

00:47:25.260 what are the ways

00:47:26.200 to establish us

00:47:27.200 in a more traditional sense?

00:47:29.400 It's really just the things

00:47:30.700 that have always

00:47:31.580 helped people

00:47:32.480 be more traditional

00:47:33.540 in their life.

00:47:34.300 It's family,

00:47:35.620 it's religious faith

00:47:36.960 and I think

00:47:38.060 it's also

00:47:38.740 an economic system

00:47:40.580 or model

00:47:41.260 that is actually,

00:47:43.080 you know,

00:47:43.640 I think making more things

00:47:45.080 in America,

00:47:46.000 right?

00:47:46.200 I think it's a less

00:47:47.080 financialized system.

00:47:49.560 I think it's a system

00:47:50.400 that,

00:47:50.900 that's really focused

00:47:52.040 on a greater connection

00:47:53.800 to our land,

00:47:54.780 to our industries,

00:47:55.720 to our resources

00:47:56.960 to help establish

00:47:58.420 a greater tradition.

00:47:59.860 I think on,

00:48:00.280 you know,

00:48:00.540 immigration is another example. 0.99

00:48:03.600 You know,

00:48:03.880 there needs to be a way

00:48:04.900 in which the pace

00:48:05.820 of immigration is,

00:48:07.120 you know,

00:48:07.660 is slowed to allow

00:48:09.440 sort of a proper assimilation

00:48:11.560 and,

00:48:12.560 you know,

00:48:12.660 there are policies

00:48:13.340 that,

00:48:13.940 that can help

00:48:15.200 to bring that about

00:48:16.260 but it doesn't happen

00:48:17.640 overnight.

00:48:19.040 Yeah,

00:48:19.480 and obviously

00:48:20.060 the powers that be

00:48:21.380 have no interest in it.

00:48:22.520 I mean,

00:48:22.720 I personally,

00:48:23.360 I think we have to have

00:48:24.340 a long moratorium

00:48:25.520 on immigration.

00:48:26.500 I think if you want

00:48:27.640 to create an actual polity,

00:48:29.220 I think if you want

00:48:30.080 a shared vision,

00:48:30.980 first you have to have

00:48:31.800 a stable population.

00:48:33.360 I think it's impossible

00:48:34.160 for people to share

00:48:35.180 a tradition,

00:48:35.640 to share a goal,

00:48:36.920 to find a value

00:48:38.060 in the transcendence

00:48:39.800 until there's

00:48:41.340 a stable community

00:48:43.040 and culture

00:48:43.920 where you can cohere

00:48:45.520 and find that vision together.

00:48:48.020 And if you constantly

00:48:49.000 are,

00:48:49.380 you know,

00:48:49.740 having a revolution

00:48:50.780 of population

00:48:52.000 every,

00:48:52.980 you know,

00:48:53.340 five,

00:48:53.760 ten years,

00:48:54.440 waving,

00:48:55.160 you know,

00:48:55.400 waves of that coming

00:48:56.260 across your border,

00:48:57.460 I just don't,

00:48:58.060 I don't see how it's

00:48:59.000 ever possible

00:48:59.660 to achieve that goal.

00:49:00.760 But of course,

00:49:01.480 you know,

00:49:01.680 like we said,

00:49:02.140 we can't solve

00:49:02.760 every one of these

00:49:03.620 problems while talking

00:49:05.680 about it.

00:49:05.920 You kind of,

00:49:06.340 you have to talk

00:49:06.840 about that end goal

00:49:07.920 and then you have

00:49:08.440 to talk about the policy.

00:49:09.540 I understand we can't,

00:49:10.680 we can't fill

00:49:11.300 every one of those

00:49:12.080 by ourselves

00:49:12.700 because we don't,

00:49:13.340 we don't control

00:49:14.080 all those institutions

00:49:15.060 in the MOBA,

00:49:15.520 but it's still important

00:49:16.380 to explore that notion.

00:49:18.980 I want to talk about

00:49:19.600 one more thing

00:49:20.220 before we go.

00:49:21.160 You had another article

00:49:22.280 that was about

00:49:22.900 aristopopulism.

00:49:24.620 I thought that was

00:49:25.380 interesting because

00:49:26.500 it sounded a little bit

00:49:27.920 like a revolution

00:49:29.320 from the middle.

00:49:30.100 It sounded a little,

00:49:30.760 a little bit like

00:49:31.840 a little bit of

00:49:32.800 Sam Francis there,

00:49:33.660 but tell me,

00:49:34.380 what is aristopopulism

00:49:35.640 and,

00:49:35.880 you know,

00:49:36.740 what would be

00:49:37.080 the goal there?

00:49:37.660 Mm-hmm.

00:49:38.640 So I think the problem

00:49:40.140 with our elite class

00:49:41.940 today is that

00:49:43.240 their interests

00:49:44.180 are completely unmoored

00:49:46.280 from the interests

00:49:47.320 of the working

00:49:48.960 and middle classes

00:49:49.760 of the country,

00:49:50.920 right?

00:49:51.240 For taking it,

00:49:52.060 taking it,

00:49:52.700 trade, for example,

00:49:54.940 you know,

00:49:55.740 the mindset is,

00:49:56.900 you know,

00:49:57.080 how do we outsource

00:49:57.940 as much as possible

00:49:59.060 on immigration?

00:50:01.320 It's how do we

00:50:02.080 kind of undercut

00:50:03.040 our current,

00:50:04.060 you know,

00:50:04.820 labor supply

00:50:06.000 by adding more to it,

00:50:07.320 driving down costs.

00:50:08.540 Nearly everything

00:50:09.220 is done

00:50:09.960 to sort of effectively

00:50:12.780 gut the working

00:50:13.760 and middle class

00:50:14.560 of their power,

00:50:15.980 sort of their economic power

00:50:17.300 in order to really enrich

00:50:18.720 a very small percentage

00:50:20.800 of the population.

00:50:22.840 And I think

00:50:23.520 one solution to this,

00:50:25.300 which I think is more

00:50:26.020 the neoliberal solution,

00:50:27.200 is that's fine.

00:50:28.320 You know,

00:50:28.440 let the process go

00:50:29.440 and we're just going to

00:50:30.040 kind of redistribute

00:50:30.920 some of this

00:50:31.380 on the margins,

00:50:32.620 you know,

00:50:32.840 give people

00:50:33.460 a basic income

00:50:35.040 and,

00:50:35.440 you know,

00:50:36.500 they can door dash

00:50:37.560 food to their door

00:50:38.260 and they can kind of live

00:50:39.160 this more servile existence

00:50:40.840 and it's okay.

00:50:41.860 We can feel good about that.

00:50:43.020 But I think

00:50:43.700 you have to find a way

00:50:45.180 and this kind of gets back

00:50:46.360 to the whole part

00:50:47.380 of thing with my piece.

00:50:48.700 You're always going

00:50:49.380 to have elites.

00:50:50.100 You're never going

00:50:50.740 to get rid of them.

00:50:52.000 The middle Americans, 0.82

00:50:53.420 you're not just going

00:50:54.100 to destroy the elites

00:50:55.140 and share the spoils.

00:50:56.120 That's a fantasy, right?

00:50:57.640 So there has to be

00:50:58.580 some way

00:50:59.080 to realign

00:51:01.180 the economic interests

00:51:02.900 of the elites

00:51:03.960 with the working

00:51:05.680 and middle classes

00:51:06.420 of the country.

00:51:07.180 And so

00:51:07.520 aristopopulism

00:51:08.860 is really

00:51:09.900 an attempt

00:51:11.140 at kind of recovering

00:51:12.140 a healthy sense

00:51:13.240 of noblesse oblige

00:51:14.600 where you figure out

00:51:16.620 how to reorient

00:51:18.120 the moral,

00:51:19.580 the economic,

00:51:20.620 the spiritual

00:51:21.320 incentives

00:51:22.760 for the elite class

00:51:24.140 so that it actually

00:51:24.720 promotes the flourishing

00:51:26.340 of the whole regime

00:51:27.200 and just not

00:51:28.120 their own narrow

00:51:29.060 economic interests.

00:51:30.460 So this is my question

00:51:33.240 because I like the notion

00:51:34.520 like I said,

00:51:35.500 it rings a little bit

00:51:37.100 of that revolution

00:51:37.720 from the middle

00:51:38.360 which I like.

00:51:39.100 The main thing

00:51:40.240 that I think about

00:51:41.100 that concerns me though

00:51:42.820 is really just

00:51:44.420 the high-low

00:51:45.080 versus middle dynamic

00:51:46.400 because I think

00:51:47.960 a large reason

00:51:48.920 that the middle class 0.65

00:51:50.420 went from something

00:51:51.160 that was a strength

00:51:52.540 of America

00:51:53.160 to something

00:51:53.900 that the elites

00:51:54.520 were actively looking

00:51:55.540 to control

00:51:56.300 was that it threatened

00:51:57.720 their rule, right?

00:51:59.140 The,

00:51:59.580 the,

00:52:00.460 middle class

00:52:01.340 had to be

00:52:01.900 re-proletarianized

00:52:03.160 because if they,

00:52:04.140 if they were able

00:52:04.820 to establish independence,

00:52:07.120 if they were able

00:52:07.840 to own their own homes,

00:52:09.100 if they were able

00:52:09.700 to start their own businesses,

00:52:11.080 if they were able

00:52:12.200 to kind of become

00:52:13.000 the bourgeoisie

00:52:13.820 and, and, and,

00:52:14.380 you know,

00:52:14.580 the Kulaks 1.00

00:52:15.120 don't need the system.

00:52:16.400 That's why you got

00:52:16.860 to get rid of them,

00:52:17.540 right?

00:52:17.780 Like they,

00:52:18.120 they don't need the system.

00:52:19.240 They have the ability

00:52:19.760 to gum it up

00:52:20.340 because they're not

00:52:21.360 entirely dependent.

00:52:22.520 It feels like

00:52:23.480 as long as the country

00:52:25.180 is scaled

00:52:25.720 to a certain size

00:52:26.660 and this might go along

00:52:27.400 with empire

00:52:27.980 and it might just be

00:52:28.680 the same answer,

00:52:29.340 but as long as the,

00:52:30.400 the,

00:52:30.700 the country is scaled

00:52:31.560 to a certain size,

00:52:32.480 the incentive is always

00:52:33.620 going to be to bleed

00:52:34.400 out the middle

00:52:34.980 because,

00:52:36.120 you know,

00:52:36.280 the,

00:52:36.400 the classic power move

00:52:37.740 is take out

00:52:38.760 the regional competition,

00:52:39.840 the independent competition

00:52:41.600 by siphoning money

00:52:43.280 away from them

00:52:43.900 and giving it

00:52:44.400 to client classes

00:52:45.120 that you import

00:52:45.800 to,

00:52:46.220 to,

00:52:46.820 you know,

00:52:47.040 protect you.

00:52:47.680 Of course,

00:52:47.920 that's exactly

00:52:48.400 what the Democratic Party

00:52:49.440 is doing right now

00:52:50.360 and that's why

00:52:50.740 corporations are more

00:52:51.540 than happy to join along

00:52:52.460 because,

00:52:53.380 you know,

00:52:53.620 they get to benefit

00:52:54.520 by bleeding out

00:52:55.340 all of the possible

00:52:56.420 competitors

00:52:57.060 to their monopolies

00:52:58.140 and so I wonder

00:52:59.820 if you'll ever

00:53:00.780 be in a position

00:53:01.680 as,

00:53:02.120 again,

00:53:02.260 as long as we have

00:53:03.180 these massive corporations

00:53:04.980 and,

00:53:05.320 and,

00:53:05.460 and kind of

00:53:06.520 global spanning governments

00:53:07.840 where you would be able

00:53:09.400 to kind of align

00:53:10.900 those interests.

00:53:11.620 Like,

00:53:12.080 does that have to go

00:53:13.280 before alien interests

00:53:14.040 can be aligned

00:53:14.760 or the aligning

00:53:15.580 of the interests

00:53:16.140 naturally scale that down?

00:53:18.120 Chicken,

00:53:18.700 egg,

00:53:18.940 egg,

00:53:19.140 chicken,

00:53:19.420 how does this work?

00:53:19.960 Yeah,

00:53:20.120 well,

00:53:20.340 I,

00:53:20.520 so I think

00:53:20.960 two,

00:53:21.700 two things.

00:53:23.000 One,

00:53:23.500 I think,

00:53:23.900 you know,

00:53:24.160 I think of someone

00:53:24.940 like Robert Lighthizer

00:53:26.420 who's a friend of mine

00:53:27.380 who was the,

00:53:27.880 the US trade representative

00:53:29.260 during the Trump administration

00:53:31.420 and his,

00:53:32.440 his view on this

00:53:33.260 is we're going to

00:53:33.920 realign the incentives

00:53:34.980 on trade

00:53:35.840 and we,

00:53:36.260 they,

00:53:36.520 we did that concretely

00:53:37.520 with China

00:53:38.140 and there was

00:53:39.120 political action,

00:53:40.160 you know,

00:53:40.340 on a national security

00:53:41.500 justification,

00:53:42.180 it realigned incentives

00:53:43.960 and then all of a sudden

00:53:44.660 you saw Silicon Valley

00:53:45.920 get totally spooked

00:53:47.060 on investing in China,

00:53:48.980 right?

00:53:49.620 And you saw

00:53:50.340 a lot of kind of

00:53:51.460 reinvestment

00:53:52.620 and a lot of,

00:53:53.460 you know,

00:53:53.660 venture funds

00:53:54.220 thinking about

00:53:54.720 investing in America,

00:53:56.180 supply chains

00:53:57.160 coming closer to home.

00:53:59.300 COVID,

00:53:59.680 I think,

00:53:59.940 accelerated that

00:54:00.820 as people saw

00:54:01.320 the dangers

00:54:01.880 of this highly

00:54:02.520 globalized supply system.

00:54:04.040 So that's the case

00:54:04.660 that's,

00:54:05.040 that's sort of

00:54:05.720 where you adjust some,

00:54:07.320 you know,

00:54:07.460 you tweak something

00:54:08.160 from the top down,

00:54:09.000 you change the incentives

00:54:10.020 and things shift.

00:54:11.700 So that's one way.

00:54:13.180 I think there's

00:54:13.680 a bottom up way 0.73

00:54:14.640 that it changes too,

00:54:16.760 which is,

00:54:17.320 it's actually

00:54:17.640 a very unstable,

00:54:18.800 if you go back again

00:54:20.100 to the mirrors

00:54:20.600 for Prince's tradition,

00:54:21.660 you see,

00:54:23.060 you know,

00:54:23.340 two things,

00:54:23.820 which sometimes

00:54:24.220 are in tension,

00:54:25.040 you know,

00:54:25.220 societies do need

00:54:26.240 to be growing economically,

00:54:29.000 I think generally

00:54:30.160 to be healthy,

00:54:31.280 right?

00:54:31.520 You don't,

00:54:31.940 you don't necessarily

00:54:32.980 need radical economic growth,

00:54:34.440 but you do need slow

00:54:35.380 and steady economic growth.

00:54:37.160 But at the same time,

00:54:38.700 you know,

00:54:38.900 so you see a lot

00:54:40.160 of warnings

00:54:40.740 in the mirrors

00:54:41.180 for Prince's

00:54:41.700 about making taxes

00:54:43.300 too high,

00:54:44.120 you know,

00:54:44.360 so you need to keep taxes

00:54:45.400 at a generally low level.

00:54:47.540 But at the same time,

00:54:48.520 income inequality

00:54:50.720 is always very destabilizing

00:54:53.520 for a regime.

00:54:55.060 And so you need growth,

00:54:56.100 but you cannot have

00:54:57.320 severe income inequality.

00:54:59.300 And you see throughout

00:55:00.200 that,

00:55:00.620 the tradition of advice

00:55:01.860 for statesmen

00:55:02.720 that when you get

00:55:03.780 rising income inequality,

00:55:05.300 the whole foundations

00:55:06.320 of the regime

00:55:06.980 become insecure

00:55:07.720 and you see the rise

00:55:09.320 of populism.

00:55:10.980 You see Bernie Sanders,

00:55:12.000 you see Trump.

00:55:13.040 And so I think

00:55:13.420 there's both

00:55:13.980 a top down,

00:55:15.420 you know,

00:55:15.840 tweaking some of the policies,

00:55:17.120 but also the bottom up

00:55:18.720 sort of populist backlash

00:55:20.520 that will,

00:55:22.480 I think,

00:55:23.240 eventually,

00:55:23.900 I think you go through

00:55:24.520 a cycle.

00:55:25.080 I think what happened

00:55:25.680 is there will be

00:55:26.560 a rebalancing

00:55:27.480 of these things

00:55:28.700 in the future.

00:55:29.420 The further,

00:55:30.320 the more unequal

00:55:30.980 they get,

00:55:31.640 the more unstable

00:55:32.680 the regime is

00:55:33.400 and there will be

00:55:33.820 a rebalancing.

00:55:35.180 And then eventually

00:55:36.060 it will probably

00:55:36.620 get out of whack again

00:55:37.720 and then it'll have

00:55:38.420 to rebalance.

00:55:39.240 And this is,

00:55:39.580 I think,

00:55:39.700 it's just part

00:55:40.160 of a natural cycle.

00:55:42.680 All right, guys.

00:55:43.620 Well,

00:55:43.820 we're going to go ahead

00:55:44.820 and wrap it up.

00:55:46.060 But of course,

00:55:46.440 I want to thank

00:55:47.260 Johnny for coming on.

00:55:49.900 I know you've got the book.

00:55:51.220 Is there anything else

00:55:52.020 that people should be

00:55:53.160 looking for?

00:55:53.920 Want to tell people

00:55:54.380 about the book

00:55:54.980 or anything else

00:55:55.560 ISI is doing

00:55:56.260 that you'd like them

00:55:56.780 to check out?

00:55:57.880 Yeah, absolutely.

00:55:58.680 So ISI hosts 0.78

00:55:59.720 over 150 events

00:56:01.440 on and off

00:56:02.140 college campuses

00:56:03.060 every year,

00:56:04.120 lectures,

00:56:04.900 seminars,

00:56:05.540 and in the summer

00:56:06.120 we have our flagship

00:56:07.120 undergraduate honors conference.

00:56:09.760 We have faculty members

00:56:11.060 like Patrick Dineen,

00:56:13.220 like Yoram Hazoni,

00:56:14.160 and many other

00:56:15.340 of your favorites.

00:56:16.440 So I'd encourage you

00:56:17.020 all to go to ISI.org.

00:56:19.160 Look at our upcoming events.

00:56:20.980 We are in the open

00:56:22.020 application season

00:56:23.140 for the honors program.

00:56:24.860 So please encourage you

00:56:26.380 to apply for that

00:56:27.320 summer program.

00:56:29.720 Excellent.

00:56:29.900 Yeah,

00:56:30.040 I have friends

00:56:30.500 who are involved

00:56:31.140 and they enjoy it.

00:56:32.640 So you guys are doing

00:56:33.400 good work.

00:56:34.260 Appreciate it.

00:56:34.780 All right, guys.

00:56:35.620 Well,

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00:57:10.460 We'll see you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - December 18, 2023

A Politics of Transcendence ｜ Guest： John Burtka ｜ 12⧸18⧸23

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