The Auron MacIntyre Show - Adopting the Terms of the Enemy ｜ Guest： Doug Wilson ｜ 5⧸21⧸25

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.760 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.320 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.560 At the end of every victory, often politically, what you end up with is a coalition that needs to sort itself out.

00:00:43.920 And that's often when the big debates, the big hash-outs happen.

00:00:47.160 Sometimes the long knives come out.

00:00:48.740 And unfortunately, that is as true with the Christian community as with others. 0.74

00:00:53.480 One guy who has been central in kind of having this discussion is pastor and author Doug Wilson.

00:00:59.620 He recently wrote a piece about whether or not the woke right exists, whether we should be embracing the terminology, how Christians should be thinking about this issue.

00:01:07.660 And I wanted to talk to him about that today.

00:01:09.900 So joining me is Pastor Wilson.

00:01:11.580 Thank you for coming on.

00:01:13.060 Oh, it's great to be here.

00:01:13.880 Thank you.

00:01:14.300 Absolutely.

00:01:15.660 We're going to dive into the article and expand a little bit on how we might be able to handle this situation.

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00:02:15.380 All right, Pastor Wilson.

00:02:16.920 So I was sent your article, and as I began, I enjoyed it.

00:02:22.200 I really agreed with a lot of that.

00:02:24.280 It seemed at first to say that the woke right is a term that isn't particularly helpful.

00:02:29.900 It doesn't help us define certain things.

00:02:32.000 It confuses the situation and has been coined by people who aren't exactly aligned with kind of Christian values.

00:02:38.080 And so it's got some serious problems.

00:02:40.580 But then later in the article, it seemed to also say that maybe the woke right does exist, and maybe we should be using it.

00:02:46.840 I got a little confused in there.

00:02:48.280 Could you help me understand kind of how you think about this issue?

00:02:51.620 Yeah, sure.

00:02:53.600 I do believe that the woke right exists, but the issue with every lexicon and every lexical term is battle for editorial control of what's the primary definition.

00:03:07.620 So does the woke right exist the way Neil Shenvey articulates it?

00:03:14.380 I would say no.

00:03:16.300 I would dispute his definition.

00:03:19.400 But does Neil Shenvey have anything to work with?

00:03:23.780 Are there any people over there making noises in order to make Neil Shenvey sound more plausible?

00:03:32.540 Yes.

00:03:33.820 They show up in my Twitter feed anyway and carry on.

00:03:39.060 So I don't think woke right is a helpful term at all for general discourse.

00:03:44.460 It's a term of abuse in order for people who are center-left, moderate, squishy evangelicals to be able to attack anybody on the right who's fighting effectively.

00:03:58.240 And so consequently, just as the old joke, I refer to this in the post, the old joke is a racist is someone who's winning an argument with a liberal.

00:04:09.780 Well, in the same way, someone who's woke right if they're winning an argument with James Lindsay or someone in that category.

00:04:17.420 So just as a general term to tar everybody with, it's not helpful at all.

00:04:24.520 But does the term apply to anybody?

00:04:29.840 Yeah, I think as I conclude the article, I think it applies to black-pilled Nietzscheans.

00:04:35.140 I think it applies to the Andrew Tates of the world.

00:04:40.140 I think it applies to people who are out there and who have adopted the oppressor-oppressed bifurcation, that binary, only they've tried to flip who's the oppressor and who's the oppressed.

00:04:55.220 Any Christian who believes in the last judgment or the fundamental antithesis between righteousness and unrighteousness has to recognize that there may be people on my side of the political divide that are bad guys,

00:05:11.380 and that there may be guys on the other side who aren't as bad as some of my guys are. 0.97

00:05:16.560 So, for example, David had Joab on his side, and Joab was a skunk, a very clear-thinking skunk, but a skunk, a murderer and shrewd politician. 0.89

00:05:31.420 And Abner, a very noble man, was on the other side.

00:05:35.820 So, someone who believes in God's sovereignty and God's unbending law knows that God's judgments don't necessarily cut along our partisan factions.

00:05:50.860 But when someone doesn't believe in God, there is no fear of God in their categorizations at all.

00:05:58.300 And they are just saying, if he's white, I'm on his side no matter what he did, and if he's black, I'm against him no matter what he did, or if he's a Jew no matter what he did. 0.68

00:06:07.960 That, I would say, the woke right does apply to him.

00:06:12.880 But, again, if someone like Neil Shenvey finds that guy, he then wants to apply that term to everybody on the right who's fighting effectively at all, and that just mercs everything up.

00:06:25.740 Right. So, as you were saying there, that's how I understood the term originally, as a term of abuse.

00:06:32.900 And I understand Neil Shenvey is one of the guys who helped to coin it, but James Lindsay has obviously been the person who has popularized it quite radically.

00:06:40.840 And as you point out, the term has been expanded to include everyone, including Yuram Harzoni.

00:06:46.440 Obviously, the most woke right, the most Nietzschean, black-pilled, anti-Semite one can find. 0.61

00:06:53.340 Right. So, the term seems pretty useless. 0.94

00:06:56.220 And not only is it useless, I have some problems with the attempts to kind of deploy it in the frame, because there's a couple of different problems with it.

00:07:05.560 One, again, obviously, it's just inaccurate.

00:07:08.460 But, two, wokeness was never some kind of academic term, right?

00:07:13.520 It wasn't some ideological – there's not this long chain of history that helps us to understand what wokeness is.

00:07:21.920 It was a derogatory slang term.

00:07:23.920 I think if you were going to give it any proper title, it would be progressive secular humanism.

00:07:28.120 That would actually be a term that helps us illuminate what the ideology is.

00:07:34.020 And so, when we try to take a term like wokeness and define it, we're doing the exact opposite.

00:07:39.180 It's like trying to explain a meme, right?

00:07:40.780 The minute you explain the meme, you're losing.

00:07:43.600 And the minute you try to turn wokeness into some kind of academic understanding, you've missed the purpose of the term.

00:07:50.780 In addition to that, it's pretty clear to me that at least the way that Lindsay has deployed it, this is a dialectical trap, which is ironic because all he does is cry about the dialectic.

00:08:01.000 But it's very clear that he did not understand what the term meant.

00:08:04.040 He said this many times, that he deployed the term without a grasp or understanding of it.

00:08:08.320 And the reason you do that, the reason you throw a pejorative out there without a definition, is specifically to capture people who aren't supposed to be inside of it.

00:08:16.320 It's to create a shibboleth and then have people fill that with content to go ahead and animate it.

00:08:23.280 The more they debate it, the more it becomes real.

00:08:25.960 And so, I feel like the deployment of the term in any way just seems like we're taking on the tools of a new atheist.

00:08:32.660 And I've specifically seen people who profess to be Christian lie about me to shoehorn me into this term.

00:08:39.280 And so, I think that using this term is not only disingenuous and adopting the frame of our enemy, it's specifically encouraging a number of Christians to engage in outright lies so that they can cancel people to their right, which I'm not sure why we would embrace that kind of behavior. 0.92

00:08:56.740 Right.

00:08:56.860 So, this is an area where I think, as best I can gauge, I think we would agree in principle, but we might wind up disagreeing anyway on this.

00:09:07.520 I agree with everything you just said about it being a generic term of abuse, not meant to clarify.

00:09:14.540 Okay.

00:09:14.980 I think that that's very true.

00:09:17.480 But I do think that there are people on the right who don't believe in God.

00:09:24.100 Sure.

00:09:24.420 And there are people on the right who would want to argue that anything goes.

00:09:32.120 So, if we can, I think these two areas map onto each other, the whole netter thing, no enemies to the right.

00:09:40.480 I understand why people started saying no enemies to the right, because I do agree that we should have no enemies to the right simply because the left demands that we do.

00:09:53.000 Right.

00:09:53.480 Right.

00:09:54.240 So, if I'm just minding my own business and someone over on the right says some foolish thing or does some awful thing, and the liberals demand that I do a performative denunciation of this guy,

00:10:09.780 if I go denounce him before I know anything about it, and I'm just doing it because the left is demanding that I denounce this person, then I think I'm being steered.

00:10:22.700 I think that I'm being manipulated and steered.

00:10:26.340 But then if I step out of the saloon brawl that we're currently going on, and then I ask myself dispassionately, does God have any enemies on my right?

00:10:38.360 Well, the answer to that would be, yeah.

00:10:41.580 God has some enemies to my right, or God has enemies right where I am on the spectrum.

00:10:47.840 And if God has enemies there, then I had better have enemies there.

00:10:52.920 So, I need to oppose them, but I need to oppose them in a way that does not give way to the leftist demands that I sort of become the policer or the enforcer of what an enemy on the right ought to be according to their lights.

00:11:11.600 They don't have a clue.

00:11:14.040 They don't have a standard to judge these things by.

00:11:16.800 But I do, right?

00:11:19.180 So, if someone in my neck of the woods starts doing awful, terrible things, I don't want to be in a position where I absolutely refuse to address it because someone on the left or someone on the right might accuse me of going soft or of just doing whatever the liberals want, denouncing whatever the liberals want.

00:11:44.360 Sure.

00:11:44.800 I'm glad you brought that up because I think it's important.

00:11:48.600 But I do think that the way we handle this tactic matters quite a bit, and I think we can do that without betraying any of our Christian principles.

00:11:57.480 But before we dive into a little more of that, let's hear from another sponsor.

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00:12:40.840 So I'd like to say, first off, that obviously there are people with poor behavior on the right, and there are obviously people who are violating God's law on the right, and there is no reason we should not be able to acknowledge that and point that out.

00:13:09.120 One of the reasons I have a problem with the term woke right is we already have words for what those people are doing.

00:13:15.160 If you're engaging in ethnic hatred, that's sinful, right?

00:13:18.100 Like, that's already something, and we can just point that out.

00:13:20.480 We don't need empty buzzwords or slanderous words.

00:13:23.460 We can directly talk about that.

00:13:25.720 It feels like a lot of what the woke right is, is we're leftists who want to call our opponents Nazis and racists, but we know that Nazis and racists codes us as left.

00:13:34.640 And so we have to continue to pretend to be on the right side, so we need different language for that.

00:13:40.120 I feel like if we were just being honest and clarifying, we have specific language.

00:13:44.100 Hey, you're engaging ethnic hatred.

00:13:45.920 That is sinful.

00:13:46.780 That is behavior you should walk away from.

00:13:48.720 You don't need to be involved in that.

00:13:50.180 I feel like that is a much clearer way to speak on that without confusing ourselves and conflating ourselves with kind of the atheist bromides here.

00:13:58.780 Also, you know, again, it's very strange because I agree with you that ultimately we have to be aware of the mistakes people on our side are making.

00:14:08.880 And, you know, there is a difference between friends, allies, and co-belligerents, and we should probably get into that in a second.

00:14:14.420 But I don't see a lot of people turning around and demanding, say, the guys of the Babylon Bee denounce James Lindsay for being an atheist who supports gay marriage.

00:14:21.580 In fact, there's zero calls for him to renounce any of those positions or them to be shamed for involving it.

00:14:28.680 And while I don't think you should have ethnic hatred in your heart, I don't think that having that is actually any more sinful than, say, supporting gay marriage.

00:14:36.700 So I guess I'm confused as to why all the calls seem to be police one style of behavior and one association.

00:14:43.860 But there seem to be zero calls to police another association and another type of sin.

00:14:49.080 Yes, I agree with you there.

00:14:53.800 Basically, we should be using equal weights and measures.

00:14:57.920 So equal weights and measures means that James Lindsay is as much out of the Christian cosmos as Andrew Tate is. 0.58

00:15:12.700 Their sins are different.

00:15:14.940 They are rebelling differently.

00:15:16.620 But they're both rebelling.

00:15:17.900 And we should – everybody should be able to say so. 0.97

00:15:23.080 Politics be damned. 0.87

00:15:24.680 The politics of the layout.

00:15:28.160 You can't say – well, if someone took me aside and said, you can't say anything about James Lindsay because we invited him to speak at our conference, da, da, da.

00:15:36.180 I think that that's compromised.

00:15:38.240 I think we should be able to speak the truth regardless.

00:15:41.180 So I think we agree there.

00:15:44.460 And I'm glad we agree on the essential thing that we should address bad behavior on our side.

00:15:50.080 You're wanting to use more specific – it's sort of like Congress wanting to pass a law against something that was already against the law.

00:15:58.360 Right?

00:15:58.960 Yes.

00:15:59.300 They want to pass a law against hate crimes as opposed to the old – what?

00:16:04.640 The good old-fashioned love crimes?

00:16:06.200 What do you mean?

00:16:08.340 So I take your point.

00:16:10.520 We already have names for that sort of thing.

00:16:13.820 And we also know that the left likes to call anybody to their right a Nazi.

00:16:20.340 Right?

00:16:20.540 You know, as far as they were concerned, Mitt Romney was a Nazi. 0.90

00:16:25.080 McCain was a Nazi when he ran for – you know, everybody's a Nazi. 0.59

00:16:29.180 And so I look at them and roll my eyes and say, come on, man.

00:16:33.120 You know, come on.

00:16:34.760 But then some people show up in my feed with swastikas and all.

00:16:39.320 Right?

00:16:40.340 Okay.

00:16:41.080 What do I call – what do I call those guys?

00:16:44.240 Right?

00:16:44.620 What do I call the guys who are celebrating all of this stuff?

00:16:51.380 Well, that seems to – neo-Nazi or Nazi seems to be the word we already have for it.

00:16:57.600 Now, going back to woke, woke was a slang term, but I would want to say it was – you said progressive, secular liberal –

00:17:07.240 Secular humanism.

00:17:08.020 Secular humanism.

00:17:09.420 Yes.

00:17:09.960 But I would want to say it was more narrow than that.

00:17:13.620 It was resting on critical theory.

00:17:16.420 And the critical – the basic antithesis in critical theory is the oppressor-oppressed metric.

00:17:22.700 And that meant if you were a member of the oppressed class, then you are – basically, it's a doctrine of social justification.

00:17:33.800 The righteousness of the cause is imputed to you no matter what you've done.

00:17:39.960 So it didn't matter how bad an actor George Floyd was.

00:17:45.300 He was justified by sheer membership in the oppressed class.

00:17:51.100 And everything is overlooked.

00:17:53.080 It's almost – it's sort of their counterfeit knockoff of justification by faith alone, the imputation of the righteousness of Christ.

00:18:01.660 He's a member of the oppressed class, so he's entirely justified. 1.00

00:18:05.540 And these white South African refugees that Trump just took in, they are rejected simply and solely because they are members of the oppressor class, because they're white.

00:18:17.740 And because of their membership in the oppressor class, nothing whatever can be done to justify them.

00:18:24.660 Okay?

00:18:24.940 That's the basic critical theory metric.

00:18:28.460 Now, when someone on the right flips that and attempts to say you're justified just because you're white, and you are condemned just because you're black or a Jew or whatever, and they're functioning with those categories, it really does look to me like a mirror image of woke, a mirror image of critical theory.

00:18:55.100 Now, if I winnow it down and I find out, yeah, those guys exist, but there's only 15 of them, then I can see the advantage of abandoning the term woke, right?

00:19:08.820 It wouldn't take a lot to get me to abandon the term woke, right?

00:19:12.160 Because I think it applies a lot more narrowly than is being attempted by Lindsay and, you know, Lindsay and Shenvi and those guys want it to apply broadly.

00:19:25.600 And I object to that, I would say, violently.

00:19:28.120 So, I, of course, agree with that last part.

00:19:32.420 And I understand why the oppressor-oppressed narrative is a good way, it feels like a good way to identify an aspect of critical theory.

00:19:43.340 And to be fair, when you're mass communicating, you're always doing propaganda.

00:19:47.800 And so, while you're doing propaganda and critical theory, that's a reasonably good catchphrase, right?

00:19:53.900 But the problem with all propaganda is it's narrow.

00:19:56.460 And so, when we're actually trying to understand something, we need something with a higher resolution, right?

00:20:01.880 The low-resolution communication of the oppressor-oppressed paradigm, I think, is unhelpful in this scenario.

00:20:08.540 Not because there isn't some truth to it, but I've read a fair amount of critical theory.

00:20:13.100 And while that's an aspect of it.

00:20:15.040 I'm very, very sorry.

00:20:15.640 I'm very sorry.

00:20:16.360 Yeah, me too.

00:20:17.780 Far too many French authors involved.

00:20:20.040 My condolences.

00:20:21.960 Thank you.

00:20:22.500 That's very kind.

00:20:23.000 I suffer on behalf of my audience, you know, reading it so they don't have to.

00:20:27.960 But the case there is far more complex.

00:20:32.440 And the problem with reducing it down to oppressor-oppressed is that then what James Lindsay and many of his acolytes who claim to be Christian but continue to embrace him as an ally,

00:20:44.800 the deployment of that simple paradigm allows James Lindsay to do a little judo flip that is very fake.

00:20:55.000 So he says, well, anytime someone talks about oppressor-oppressed, therefore, it's wokeness, right?

00:21:00.020 Like, if this is the only aspect of critical theory that we're understanding, then any discussion of oppressor-oppressed is wokeness.

00:21:07.840 And he has specifically said this several times in reference to the South African immigrants, the South African refugees.

00:21:14.440 So he has called people who have acknowledged the oppression of white farmers, the literal murder of them and the stealing of their land.

00:21:23.320 Calling them oppressed is, I think, entirely factually accurate. 1.00

00:21:26.620 He has pointed out that people noticing this are woke.

00:21:29.940 And so Donald Trump today was in the White House.

00:21:32.560 He's in the Oval Office speaking with the president of South Africa, Cyril – I don't remember how to pronounce his last name.

00:21:39.140 But the guy says, oh, of course, this is all a lie.

00:21:41.400 None of this is happening.

00:21:42.620 And so Donald Trump turns on the TV like a boss and starts playing footage of all of these farmers standing there in solidarity with the hundreds of people,

00:21:52.660 a thousand, I think, almost people at least who have been killed in this genocide.

00:21:56.760 He plays different politicians in South Africa calling for the genocide of white farmers in South Africa, kill the boar, chanting to stadiums full of people.

00:22:07.340 Now, you could even look at that and call it a struggle session, right?

00:22:10.840 I mean, if you want to frame this, if you want to play with this frame, you can turn anything into wokeness.

00:22:16.520 I mean, Chris Ruffo actually confronted James Lindsay on Twitter about this, saying that your frame, your understanding of critical theory would apply to the founding fathers, right?

00:22:25.760 Look at you with your list of grievances, saying there's some system that's oppressing you, saying you need to throw off the chains of oppression.

00:22:32.840 Okay, I don't know.

00:22:34.200 Like, I guess you could call Thomas Jefferson woke.

00:22:37.240 I don't – it just – to me, that seems like a really bad application.

00:22:41.680 So I guess what I'm saying is there's a low-resolution version of this that you can judo flip anybody with.

00:22:50.500 But embracing that paradigm just makes it very difficult to have any actual discussions about what's going on in the world.

00:22:56.800 So I attempted – I don't know how successfully, but in my piece, I attempted to address this by arguing that there are instances in this fallen world of genuine oppression.

00:23:09.020 There are true victims, and there are times when the victim is black, there are times when the victim is a Gentile, times when he's a Jew, and times when he's white. 0.95

00:23:20.460 And what I wanted to do, and I think the Christian worldview framing means that if a situation blows up and, let's say, a cop in an inner city shoots a guy, and the guy – a teenager – shoots a 17-year-old.

00:23:38.640 And if you need to wait until you find out what color everybody was before you know what side you're on, then that's the oppressor-oppressed critical theory metric.

00:23:51.520 But just the facts of the case, somebody is being oppressed.

00:24:00.020 So George Floyd was either being oppressed or Derek Chauvin was being oppressed.

00:24:06.540 And I happen to believe that he was railroaded and wrongly convicted and needs to be pardoned and released.

00:24:13.620 But if you have this scenario where I don't know who's guilty, I don't know which side to cheer for, I don't know which side to advocate for, until you tell me their colors.

00:24:25.900 Okay, that is oppressor-oppressed based on class, based on the identity that you have.

00:24:35.500 And that's why it's called identity politics.

00:24:39.060 But if you have genuine oppression that you could prove, you know, genuine murder or mayhem or rape, that you could prove in a court of law, then, of course, you're right.

00:24:51.420 Lindsay's argument is absurd because you could flip it on him and say, so you're – if he were doing that, these white Afrikaners are not oppressed.

00:25:01.240 And if you say they're oppressed, you're using critical theory category, I would say, so, do you believe that the Holocaust happened?

00:25:10.120 Right.

00:25:10.720 Are you a Holocaust denier?

00:25:13.540 Because that's right where this – that's right where this leads, right?

00:25:18.520 Of course.

00:25:19.060 Because what you have to do is look at the facts of the case.

00:25:21.820 So if I want to welcome Afrikaner refugees, I want to know more than what color they are. 0.84

00:25:28.500 If I want to convict someone of a crime, I need to know more than what color they are. 1.00

00:25:34.940 If I want to defend someone on Twitter, I need to know more than what color they are. 0.99

00:25:40.880 And the inflamed state of affairs that we've gotten into means that there are guys – there are many, many people on the left that I don't want serving on juries because they've proven that they cannot look at the facts of each individual case.

00:25:59.220 Everything for them is collective.

00:26:00.560 But I do see people on the right that I don't want on juries either.

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00:26:37.320 Sure, and like I said, I think that obviously there are cases of bad behavior on the right, and there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that ultimately.

00:26:47.040 It's just that the general discussion here seems to have been to silence people who are noticing that the left has had bad behavior.

00:26:55.040 For instance, the United States has had laws on the books for my entire life, making it illegal to hire white people if they're more qualified. 0.80

00:27:07.420 Ultimately, there is a racial quota system in the United States and has been for many, many decades.

00:27:11.800 And, you know, thank God that now the Supreme Court seems to be pushing back against that, and the Trump administration is finally pushing back against that.

00:27:19.780 But we've had an entire regime defined by the civil rights revolution that has built in, literally, like in the law.

00:27:26.880 We've spent decades uncovering it now with the anti-woke stuff, anti-white legislation and policies in all kinds of government scenarios and all of these corporations.

00:27:38.400 And I'm not asking for any kind of preferential treatment for white people.

00:27:42.000 I'm not asking for anything except that simply these barriers, these literal legal barriers that have been placed against specifically white young men, white Christian young men in many cases.

00:27:53.180 I just ask that those legal barriers be removed, and yet all I'm seeing is that this is an embracing of the oppressor-oppressed narrative.

00:27:59.860 And I feel like, no, I'm literally just asking for equal weights and measures.

00:28:04.040 But the only way a woke right is getting used primarily is to attack a lot of Christians for just asking for basic treatment in the law.

00:28:13.180 Right. So let me join you and give a book recommend.

00:28:17.280 You probably recommended these already.

00:28:20.200 But if anybody wants a real education in what you just said, I would say Age of Entitlement by Caldwell and The Unprotected Class by Jeremy Carl.

00:28:31.980 They're two magnificent books.

00:28:35.780 OK.

00:28:36.360 And what you said is exactly right.

00:28:38.640 We have instantiated systemic prejudicial judgments based on membership in a class, you know, based on basically discrimination against whites.

00:28:51.220 That's formalized and and it's embedded in our all of our structures.

00:28:56.700 And it needs to go.

00:28:58.380 Right.

00:28:58.820 It needs to go.

00:29:00.040 It needs to be toppled.

00:29:00.860 And if anybody wants a good history of how that came about, those two books will will do it.

00:29:07.100 We agree completely.

00:29:10.040 Now, the question that I would ask is, how is it possible for someone like me who's been fighting with progressive secularism for decades and would, you know, made Jeremy Carl's book, the book of the month?

00:29:25.600 I think I did the same thing for Age of Entitlement.

00:29:27.580 And you look at those those two books and my I would rate them both as 10 out of 10.

00:29:34.240 But yeah, that this is the this explains it.

00:29:37.960 Now, why would someone in my position get routinely harangued from the right?

00:29:44.240 As a as a as a compromiser, what's the reason for it?

00:29:49.860 Well, I think it's because I'm picking up from some people.

00:29:54.160 They want me to simply fight on the basis of skin color.

00:29:59.260 They want they they don't. 0.78

00:30:01.980 In my article, I talk about the fact that I'm budgeting for the fact that other people are operating on the basis of skin color alone.

00:30:10.640 That doesn't make me woke.

00:30:13.060 That doesn't make me a bigot at all.

00:30:15.720 I'm just operating in a world full of bigotry.

00:30:18.220 Right. So if I know that people are bigoted against white people and want to kill whitey and I take steps to protect myself, that doesn't mean that I'm operating with their categories. 0.86

00:30:29.740 I'm just budgeting for the for their categories. 0.92

00:30:34.020 Does that make sense?

00:30:35.260 Sure. And one of the things that you've said in I've heard you say it routinely.

00:30:40.240 You said it again in the piece is ultimately you don't get to choose whether or not you're inside of some kind of ethnic conflict.

00:30:46.640 It's often foisted upon you. Right.

00:30:48.920 Like that's not so as far as the other side does that for you.

00:30:52.500 Right. Right. So as long as far as you can avoid it, you should.

00:30:55.100 But, you know, if that's the situation that you're in, then, you know, you have to care about your family.

00:31:00.440 You have to care about your community.

00:31:01.620 You can't walk around and pretend that people aren't saying that they want to kill you.

00:31:04.940 That's just how you get a Holocaust in the first place. Right. 0.99

00:31:07.660 Right. And if you're trying to avoid and if you're a white Afrikaner and you want to get your family to the United States to save their lives.

00:31:15.520 Right. Right. And you and you have a moment of hesitation.

00:31:19.440 Man, if I do that, James Lindsay is going to think that I've bought into critical theory.

00:31:25.260 It's like, come on. Good, good, good grief.

00:31:28.360 Right. All right. Well, I want to dive in because you mentioned you mentioned Netter real quick.

00:31:32.980 And I want to dive into that because I think a large part of this is actually about alliances and and how they're formed and what's acceptable in this moment.

00:31:40.960 And so since we've kind of, I think, hashed out most of the fact that woke right is not particularly helpful, but maybe we do have people that need to be addressed.

00:31:49.000 Then the question is how to address them. And that might be the place to go next.

00:31:52.700 So we'll go there as soon as we're done with our last sponsor.

00:31:56.160 This episode of the Orrin McIntyre show is proudly sponsored by Consumers Research.

00:32:00.540 You've heard about Larry Fink and BlackRock and ESG and all the ways that they're ruining your life, making your groceries more expensive and making your video games more woke.

00:32:10.280 Well, Consumers Research has spent the last five years making Larry's life hell, and they're just getting started.

00:32:16.740 Their work and its consequences have been profiled by The Washington Post, New York Times, and most recently, Fox News business reporter Charlie Gasparono wrote a whole chapter in his book, Go Woke, Go Broke, on how effective they've been at dismantling BlackRock's ESG patronage scheme.

00:32:33.840 He's making Larry Fink lose the last bit of hair on his balding head, and you should follow Will's work on X so you can laugh along with him.

00:32:42.520 His handle is at WillHild, at Will, W-I-L-L-H-I-L-D, on X.

00:32:50.220 All right.

00:32:51.020 So, you know, Charles Haywood had this idea of no enemies to the right.

00:32:55.480 And I think that ultimately Charles has refined that idea to no enemies on the right, which I think is actually a far more helpful understanding.

00:33:04.080 I think the concern originally for people was that being right wing was like the test of loyalty.

00:33:10.260 It was the test of purity.

00:33:11.480 So the further right you were, the more radical you were, the more correct you were and the less open to attack you were.

00:33:17.340 And that was not Charles, that was never his intention, and that was obviously not what he explained when anyone explained it.

00:33:24.160 But due to the terminology, I think some people picked it up that way.

00:33:27.140 His point was always that the left is far more dangerous.

00:33:31.380 And, you know, I think of it this way.

00:33:33.180 I hear a lot about how bad Vladimir Putin is or how bad China is, and I'm sure they're very bad.

00:33:39.160 They're overall very big geopolitical threats, and I think we have to be ready to address them on some level.

00:33:44.980 However, the most dangerous things happening to me and mine in this country are happening because my government is doing them.

00:33:53.460 And so in a very serious way, the system of government in the United States as it exists now, which I think is a total perversion and violation of the Constitution and constitutional governments as we understand it, they are far more dangerous than China and Russia to me.

00:34:07.880 I know existentially Russia has more nukes or whatever, but in actual day-to-day existence, my government is the one locking up my friends and family.

00:34:16.560 My government is the one that is threatening my friends and family.

00:34:19.040 My government is the one threatening censorship and bringing false cases and attempting to throw Christians in jail.

00:34:25.020 And so while I'm sure that, like, Russia and China are bad, what the enemy I'm focused on is the one that is wielding power over me at the moment, which is the previous administration.

00:34:35.380 In the same way, I'm sure that people on the right are a problem.

00:34:42.200 I'm sure there's bad behavior on the right at the moment, but the left are the ones who are in power.

00:34:47.840 Like, I know there are some guys with racist avatars, like the Groypers, most of which probably aren't even American or white in the first place.

00:34:57.360 They're posting a lot of Nazi imagery.

00:34:59.260 Great.

00:34:59.700 Good.

00:34:59.940 You know, it's terrible.

00:35:01.060 I get it.

00:35:01.480 Okay.

00:35:01.640 But, like, ultimately, they have zero power.

00:35:05.080 They own no institutions.

00:35:06.660 And so I can be like, don't do that.

00:35:08.640 But I'm going to spend 95% of my time trying to stop the people who are actually actively trying to hurt me and my family and other Christians and these kind of things.

00:35:17.260 And so I guess my confusion is just the focus that has now become, you know, that has now switched over.

00:35:25.660 I don't mind saying, hey, ultimately, we shouldn't behave that way.

00:35:28.880 I think that's entirely reasonable, right?

00:35:31.500 But it's the amount of energy that has been expended trying to cancel people on the right for having the wrong opinions seems rather disproportionate to, like, making sure that the left does not stay in power.

00:35:43.220 And that's really, I think, ultimately what Charles was trying to say is that we're spending far too much of our energy attacking minuscule movements that have zero power while we're, you know, infighting there.

00:35:53.280 The left is actually winning real battles.

00:35:55.940 Right.

00:35:56.200 I think that's a great point, a salient one.

00:35:59.140 I would recommend, tailing on to your first point about which government in the world is the biggest threat to me and my family.

00:36:07.400 You're absolutely right.

00:36:08.800 It's our government.

00:36:09.800 And I would recommend to your viewers another great book called The Total State.

00:36:18.940 That was a magnificent treatment of what is actually going on.

00:36:24.140 So I agree with you completely.

00:36:25.540 So if you're talking about, you know, the guy who spends late nights posting images of the little green frog and calling me names, and I check on the profile and it's 17 followers and, you know, three of them are probably his mom and sisters.

00:36:48.580 I don't think we should be concerned about that.

00:36:52.720 We're a country of 330 million plus, and you're always going to have people like that.

00:36:59.380 Okay.

00:36:59.600 You're always going to have people like that.

00:37:01.560 And they are not the threat.

00:37:04.500 Having said that, as this, let's just take a catch-all phrase that is not pejorative, not intended to be pejorative.

00:37:16.120 Let's say we have, like, the dissident right, or instead of conservative ink, you know, the controlled opposition that you would see under George W. Bush or whatever.

00:37:30.680 But let's say the hard right or the dissident right.

00:37:34.780 This has taken shape in the last decade, and there's quite a range of characters in this dissident right.

00:37:43.260 And I tried to outline, you know, there's the Berkian conservatives, and there are the MAGA conservatives, and there are the reactionary conservatives.

00:37:52.440 You know, you've got all these different groups.

00:37:54.440 In this big group, the issue, the only reason that I can see for fighting, having a pitched battle with guys on the right, is if someone is making a play to be the leader of this coalition.

00:38:14.800 They want to be influencers.

00:38:16.780 They want to be the head of the parade, okay?

00:38:21.520 And at a certain point, if Nick Fuentes becomes the face of Christian nationalism, right, and he makes it on to Time Magazine, maybe I should explain to your viewers that there used to be a magazine called Time.

00:38:38.220 Yeah, on this physical parchment, it's like a relic of ancient Egypt or something.

00:38:46.720 Yeah, back in the old days.

00:38:47.840 I think they printed them on scrolls.

00:38:49.940 But if Nick Fuentes becomes the titular leader of this movement, then I believe this task of defeating the great enemy, the progressive left, is going to go down in flames.

00:39:09.180 Because I don't think these guys are competent.

00:39:14.180 There are people who are positioning themselves to represent the whole movement, and I think that we have to resist them and fight them, not because they are the biggest threat, but they're a secondary threat because they want to represent the whole movement that's taking a stand against the woke left.

00:39:35.760 And the woke left, that's a chocolate pie for them. 0.92

00:39:42.020 So you know the – I forget the name of them.

00:39:44.600 You know the FBI guys who put on the masks and the FBI khakis, and they march in Washington periodically.

00:39:51.280 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:39:52.340 You know, those guys?

00:39:53.580 Patriot Front guys.

00:39:54.220 Patriot Front guys.

00:39:55.380 Now, when the establishment is trying to discredit the right, and they do these psych ops, and they do these false flag operations, what do they act like?

00:40:12.780 Who do they act like?

00:40:14.200 What do they mimic?

00:40:15.560 So if I look at somebody in my ex-feed, and I can't tell if this guy is a racist or an FBI agent, right?

00:40:25.100 If he were FBI, would he be behaving any differently?

00:40:31.140 And the answer is no, because there is a – this is a subversive, undermining movement trying to split up and balkanize the coalition that's come together to oppose the progressive, secular left.

00:40:50.300 And they've taken some real damage in the last few years, and I want to keep that up.

00:40:58.680 I want them to continue to be beaten from the field.

00:41:03.100 But in every war, there are the countermeasures that come against you, the troops that come against you, and then there are the subversives, the spies, the people who are trying to foment trouble on the inside.

00:41:19.280 We are now big enough that the FBI has infiltrated what we're about doing.

00:41:29.800 We know that they try to mimic the extreme elements of the right.

00:41:34.180 Well, why do they do that?

00:41:35.220 Because that kind of thing helps them.

00:41:37.300 That's what it boils down to.

00:41:39.220 And I'm with you that the real threat is the statist, secular government.

00:41:46.800 The real threat is the total state.

00:41:48.740 That's the threat.

00:41:50.200 And the guys on our side who are misbehaving are not the real threat, except insofar as they are undermining our ability to fight the real threat.

00:42:00.560 So that would be my general reaction.

00:42:04.220 Yeah, and that's fair.

00:42:06.100 I guess my – so my main concern is that in many ways, of course, again, I have no problem with just, you know, okay, don't act like that.

00:42:14.460 That's sinful behavior.

00:42:15.980 That's not something a Christian should be involved in. 1.00

00:42:18.860 A perfectly fair response to, I think, a lot of that which is going on.

00:42:22.880 But it feels like a lot of the time that is being spent is actually turning these guys into leaders more than it is removing their leadership.

00:42:30.340 So I'll just throw this example out here.

00:42:32.800 I had no idea who Stone Choir was until a bunch of guys who opposed Stone Choir told me.

00:42:38.120 I literally did not know who these guys are in.

00:42:40.180 I had never heard a single one of their podcasts.

00:42:41.800 I still haven't heard any of their podcasts.

00:42:43.740 But I know who they are now, and I know a lot of guys who now are paying a lot more attention to them.

00:42:49.140 And the only reason that they know who they are or they're paying any attention to these guys or see them of any kind of notoriety is that you guys can't start arguing with them.

00:42:56.800 You can't start giving them air.

00:42:58.660 And so you understand their trolling is working.

00:43:02.140 Like their strategy is working on you.

00:43:04.320 You're not defeating them.

00:43:05.940 You're not removing them from power.

00:43:08.220 Nick Quintez doesn't like me, right?

00:43:09.780 He spends a lot of time insulting me.

00:43:11.560 I don't care.

00:43:12.220 I don't spend a lot of time on Nick Quintez.

00:43:13.400 I don't do his shows on Nick Quintez.

00:43:14.840 I don't go around trying to get in debates with Nick Quintez.

00:43:17.280 Nick Quintez is something I don't think about.

00:43:20.280 I know he's out there.

00:43:21.020 I know people tell me.

00:43:21.900 They send me something.

00:43:22.760 Oh, Nick Quintez said something about you.

00:43:24.540 Cool.

00:43:24.920 Great.

00:43:25.240 Whatever.

00:43:25.520 I don't care.

00:43:26.080 I got more important problems right now.

00:43:27.700 I'm sure he has an audience, but that's just not my major concern.

00:43:31.780 And by getting in debates with him online, by trying to attack him, I would just be feeding that.

00:43:37.260 That's very obviously what he's looking for.

00:43:39.260 And so I guess what I'm saying is, while I understand, especially one-on-one, if you see a young man in your church or someone you know personally, you can turn to that guy as someone who has authority in his life as a Christian brother.

00:43:52.520 And especially if you're someone who's in a place of authority, you can turn to him and say, these are not people you should be following.

00:43:57.480 This is not behavior you should be engaging in.

00:43:59.340 And you'll have real authority because that's how actual masculine discipleship works. 1.00

00:44:03.920 But when you're online, just being like, don't talk to people like that.

00:44:07.760 You sound like a Hector and grandma.

00:44:09.640 Like, you sound like a woke, blue-haired, progressive person.

00:44:12.320 You're long-housing people.

00:44:13.540 And I think that's the real problem with engaging in this way.

00:44:17.100 It's not that what you're saying is wrong.

00:44:18.700 It's not that these rebukes don't ultimately hold value or that they shouldn't be engaged in.

00:44:24.240 But I think the very model of, like, mass attempts to Hector people into a particular cell, especially when you have no authority over them, like no direct, actual personal authority over them, it just ends up creating this scenario where a lot of people get, you know, they get drawn to these people more than they get pushed away.

00:44:41.440 Yeah, I think that, first, your point is, in principle, quite correct.

00:44:46.920 And I try to follow it.

00:44:48.500 When someone attacks me online, one of my routine procedures is I check their profile.

00:44:53.240 And if it's just a handful of followers, if I respond to them, I've just made their day.

00:44:59.420 Right.

00:44:59.980 Right. 0.99

00:45:00.160 And I don't, you know, they're, they're being foolish or moronic and I don't want to make their day because if I give them oxygen, if I give them airtime, I've made their day. 0.98

00:45:10.760 But if I click on something and they're, and they've got 150,000 followers, they've just made my day. 0.98

00:45:18.540 Right.

00:45:19.320 Because I don't want to give no nothings.

00:45:22.400 I don't want to give mayflies the microphone and make their day. 1.00

00:45:27.860 And at the same time, I don't mind when bad guys give me the microphone and I've got an opportunity to speak to a big chunk of their audience.

00:45:37.500 So I take your point about we don't want to make Stone Choir a thing.

00:45:43.600 We don't want to do that.

00:45:44.840 That's not what the intention was.

00:45:47.280 Because I'll just say this, a number of us are not just commenting online.

00:45:54.640 We're not just commenting on X or posting online.

00:45:58.080 I'm a pastor and I'm a pastor of a conservative evangelical church.

00:46:04.380 And I, our network of pastors is, has been having to deal with Anons, misbehaving Anons in their churches. 1.00

00:46:15.300 And young men who are attracted to this sort of thing.

00:46:19.440 And in Moscow, we've had, we've had numerous conversations with young men in our congregation seeking to address these things.

00:46:28.320 And I can assure you that Stone Choir was enough of a thing to make a big mess.

00:46:35.200 And at some point you have to, and the judgment call may have been wrong.

00:46:39.160 We may have misplaced the judgment.

00:46:40.500 But at some point you have to say, follow the Pauline admonition to rebuke the gainsayer, to rebuke the person, to debate him and, and shut him down and say, okay, this, this needs to be for one and done.

00:46:56.980 And I think that James White's, um, debate with Corey Mahler was quite effective.

00:47:02.380 And the blog post that I, uh, did the follow-up blog post on Stone Choir, uh, was took off like a rocket.

00:47:10.680 Lots and lots, you know, lots and lots of people read it.

00:47:13.880 And I'm hoping that we can spike those guns.

00:47:17.980 I don't want to just keep them alive.

00:47:20.100 I don't want to keep them going and make them a thing.

00:47:22.620 But we addressed them because they were already becoming a thing and causing pastoral problems in our circles.

00:47:30.220 And it looked like if you don't say anything, you're sort of seeding the field.

00:47:34.840 You're, you're granting the legitimacy of the point.

00:47:37.880 And I, I don't want to be in that position either.

00:47:40.380 So it's a judgment call.

00:47:42.040 I agree with you.

00:47:43.000 You don't want to feed the, feed the trolls.

00:47:45.560 Don't feed the trolls.

00:47:46.780 That's a good rule.

00:47:48.100 But at the same time, if the troll is in the village eating people, you've got to do something.

00:47:55.080 I guess I, I'll just put my cards on the table here.

00:47:58.960 Uh, I'm good friends with Ryan Turnipseed, uh, who was, uh, uh, excommunicated from his church because he went on Stone Choir's podcast.

00:48:07.660 Now, Ryan doesn't agree with any, everything they say at all.

00:48:11.580 He was simply invited on a podcast about an issue.

00:48:14.040 He discussed it and left, but this was enough to get him full church discipline.

00:48:17.640 He's been several struggle sessions, uh, sessions, you know, total lies from church leadership.

00:48:23.580 Uh, Ryan is one of the most upstanding young men I have ever seen.

00:48:28.140 He is a leader.

00:48:29.200 He's a good man.

00:48:30.380 Uh, the fact that a guy like him can be excommunicated simply for speaking with these people and not immediately like caving to some kind of mob denouncement of them, uh, does, does not speak well of the process.

00:48:43.480 It reminds me a lot of the Thomas Acord affair.

00:48:46.080 I met Rob Dreher.

00:48:47.640 He likes my stuff.

00:48:48.980 Seems like a nice enough guy.

00:48:50.480 He also was involved in a cancellation that canceled one of my friends.

00:48:54.400 Who's a very good guy, not Thomas Acord, but one of the guy, one of the other guys at that school, who's a very good guy with several children who he suddenly couldn't feed because of this witch hunt.

00:49:05.740 And so I'm very concerned that several of my personal friends who are good Christian men, family men, people of upstanding character are being slandered and destroyed in this like witch hunt over what seems like a relatively small batch of guys who, again, fair enough, bad behavior is bad behavior.

00:49:23.740 I'm willing to call it out and I'm willing to acknowledge it.

00:49:26.140 And I think that there's a, obviously there's a role of that, especially if you're a pastor, like, but do we have to turn this into a public struggle session or can we just address bad behavior in our churches?

00:49:35.700 I guess I'm confused about that fact.

00:49:38.360 Well, I would say you've come to the right person because Rob Dreher has gone after me also.

00:49:45.340 So, yeah, I know that there are, not only is there bad behavior on the right that needs to be disciplined, there's bad behavior on the right in doing the, in conducting the discipline.

00:49:59.460 Yes, very much so.

00:50:00.340 Right. So I, I, I know that and acknowledge that I would have to, I don't know the particulars of those cases, but I do know that Rob Dreher very ironically wrote a very good book, Live Not By Lies.

00:50:14.360 I really liked the book, but was pretty responsible for, well, it was responsible for circulating a number of lies about us.

00:50:23.920 And you can't write a book called Live Not By Lies and then Circulate Lies, right?

00:50:29.380 So, okay, that's, that's no fun.

00:50:31.240 That's no good.

00:50:31.880 That's, we don't want to, we don't want to do that.

00:50:35.600 So having said that people are sinners and they sin everywhere they go.

00:50:39.360 They, they sin in, in being right wing.

00:50:42.740 They sin in being hardcore.

00:50:44.160 They sin and fail when they try to crack down on people who are sinning and being hardcore.

00:50:48.860 All of, yeah, I agree with you.

00:50:51.740 We shouldn't do bad things.

00:50:52.900 We should do good things.

00:50:54.780 Yeah, I, I agree.

00:50:56.720 Fair enough.

00:50:58.480 We, guys, we have a lot of super chats stacking up and I don't know if we're going to be able to get to all of them.

00:51:03.960 So I will do my best, but I can't keep Pastor Wilson here forever.

00:51:07.580 So just letting you know, I'm going to get into our last topic before we go to the questions of the people.

00:51:11.960 But if, if, if you're worried about getting your question read, you may want to stop with super chats just because we have so many.

00:51:17.740 And I don't know if we're gonna have time to get to all of them.

00:51:19.480 And I don't want anyone, you know, putting in a super chat and not getting their chance.

00:51:23.160 So, Pastor Wilson, my, my last question is this.

00:51:25.360 You mentioned, you know, the Nietzscheans and, and, and don't get me wrong.

00:51:28.820 I was dunking on a neo-pagan on Twitter, you know, today. 0.99

00:51:32.420 So I'm more than, I'm more than fine to, to make support of these people when they're saying ridiculous things about Christianity.

00:51:38.220 That said, you know, you look at something like the Spanish Civil War and the, the right Republicans and the Carlos and the Phalanges, they have very big differences, right?

00:51:49.100 Like they have, they have pretty big ideological differences, but they know they don't want to get murdered by the Bolsheviks.

00:51:54.040 And so even though maybe the Phalanges aren't the best guys, they still get to march in their uniforms and they still kill an awful lot of the bad guys, right? 1.00

00:52:02.740 And then you don't end up with a communist revolution in, in, in Spain.

00:52:06.660 Right. And so, um, I, I understand that ultimately like me and like bronze age pervert are going to have some pretty big differences at the end of the day on, on a number of issues. 0.86

00:52:15.880 And I think it's entirely reasonable to acknowledge those.

00:52:19.440 I do on a regular basis.

00:52:20.200 Like I said, I got no problem, you know, going after a pagan when they're attacking Christianity, do it all the time. 1.00

00:52:24.640 That said, at the end of the day, coalitions are coalitions and, uh, co-belligerents are co-belligerents.

00:52:30.760 And the point I think ultimately of no enemies on the right is we have, I mean, I'll put it pretty bluntly.

00:52:37.860 We're on the edge of what could be a complete systemic failure, failure of American government.

00:52:43.500 Like we're, we're, we got pretty close.

00:52:45.920 If Kamala Harris had been able to eke out that victory, I don't know which of us would not be in jail at this moment.

00:52:51.900 Like I, I, I say that without, I think any level of hyperbole, they literally tried to murder the president on live television.

00:52:57.580 So I think I'm pretty safe in saying this, um, when we're at that level, I feel like, um, we'll win and then figure it out is actually a pretty reasonable response to a lot of what's going on right now.

00:53:09.380 Not to say that any of this behavior is acceptable, not to say that personally, you can't deal with it as you should.

00:53:14.100 Obviously, again, if you're a pastor or someone in a position of leadership, you should be speaking truth, especially Christ's truth into the lives of all the people.

00:53:21.900 Who are under you, including, including truths about hatred, but ultimately like the winning is the most important part at this point, because if we don't win, then we don't get another chance to actually speak God's truth, at least not without going to jail or getting shot.

00:53:34.660 And so I think there, well, again, I'm, you're not going to find me being the best buds at the end of the day with some of these guys.

00:53:41.880 I feel like sometimes you, you got to make the coalition to win and, and, uh, I guess I'll just kind of hang that out there for your response.

00:53:50.140 Yeah.

00:53:50.660 Uh, up to a point, I agree with that.

00:53:53.000 So for example, uh, if we took, if we gathered up all the people on the right that we've been talking about this whole time, I would venture to say that 90% of all of us voted the same way in this, in this last election.

00:54:07.420 Right.

00:54:08.260 Right.

00:54:08.860 Um, I, basically I am, uh, more than willing to be in a generic cultural movement that includes wildly disparate types of people.

00:54:21.740 And I have, um, I have a blog post I wrote a year or two ago, uh, uh, on, uh, the Jesus mobs with the mobs in Jerusalem at the time of the Lord.

00:54:32.540 There were people who were baptized by John the Baptist.

00:54:35.460 They, but notice how the bad guys, the establishment bad guys have to tiptoe around Jerusalem.

00:54:41.740 Why?

00:54:42.320 Because they were afraid of the mobs.

00:54:44.280 Right.

00:54:44.900 And when the apostles are arrested and detained in the book of Acts, they, they were afraid of being stoned.

00:54:50.540 So they were very, very polite when they took the apostles in.

00:54:53.960 Well, it was very clear from that, that the mobs, the crowds out there had not really internalized the sermon on the Mount yet.

00:55:00.900 You know, they were, uh, they were, um, they were on, on Jesus side, but they had all kinds of raggedy, uh, opinions.

00:55:10.660 And Jesus calls, uh, for his disciples, he, he calls, um, uh, one of them is Levi, the tax collector, a collaborator with the Roman government.

00:55:21.240 And he also calls Simon, the zealot, you know, a, a hard, a hard right guy in our, in our terms.

00:55:27.420 And he calls them to be his disciples, uh, to be among his disciples.

00:55:31.520 So I agree that, um, basically Franco winning, uh, this is the, someone mentioned an American Franco.

00:55:42.420 Uh, what people don't understand is we're not sitting in a seminar room, uh, wishing what's, what's the ideal form of government.

00:55:49.760 Maybe God would send us a Franco from heaven and we could live under that kind of government. 0.85

00:55:54.880 You have to, you have to realize that you're dealing with the options that are on the table.

00:56:00.500 And in Spain, it was the commies or it was this, you know, hard bitten right-wing coalition.

00:56:08.820 And it was a blessing that Franco won, but that doesn't mean I sit back and think that Franco's the ideal.

00:56:16.600 I don't think he's the ideal at all.

00:56:18.920 I would much prefer to restore the American constitutional order.

00:56:24.200 That's what I want.

00:56:25.240 But if we keep up with this nonsense of the progressive push, we're going to wind up with a Franco. 0.84

00:56:31.560 Or if we, if we lose worse.

00:56:35.460 Right. Yeah. Yeah.

00:56:35.940 Frank, unfortunately, Franco is the good outcome if things get bad enough.

00:56:39.760 Um, and, and, uh, the, the point being is even an attempt to restore the American constitution would require

00:56:48.640 honestly, uh, frankly, a revolution at this point, like that, that's kind of where we're at is that

00:56:55.420 just suggesting constitutional government seems revolutionary to these people.

00:56:59.000 Just having a functioning executive branch that actually operates as article two dictates

00:57:03.340 as people calling Trump Hitler, right.

00:57:05.620 A fashion.

00:57:05.960 So I think that ultimately, um, just a, a functioning constitutional government with something like

00:57:12.120 say freedom of association is something that is so radical that most people, uh, would

00:57:16.380 think of it as hard, right at this point.

00:57:18.640 And so that's why I'm, I, I tend to, to take the view that ultimately we have to win.

00:57:24.740 And, and again, that doesn't mean that anything goes and it doesn't mean that we can't chastise

00:57:29.440 poor behavior.

00:57:30.080 And it doesn't mean that we shouldn't be discipling young men to turn away from particular behaviors

00:57:34.400 that we think are destructive to them overall.

00:57:36.940 I guess ultimately point is just, you have to have the eye on the prize.

00:57:40.820 You have to have the big, the big picture here.

00:57:42.680 And the big picture is, uh, you know, the time at the hour is late and, and, and if

00:57:46.740 you want peaceful solutions, uh, the, the, the reason you get Franco's is always that

00:57:51.580 the moderate right wingers didn't do their job, right?

00:57:54.200 This is always why you get Franco because the guys ahead of Franco wouldn't do the job.

00:57:59.180 And so it took a Franco to get it done. 0.97

00:58:00.880 And so if we are going to cower, if we're not going to address these issues, if we're going

00:58:04.440 to play it safe, if we're going to shy away, if we're going to get scared from the,

00:58:08.640 you know, all the bad men along the way to get done what needs to get done.

00:58:11.560 So we don't end up in a position of needing a Franco. 0.92

00:58:14.460 Well, then we're just driving ourselves to the same destination, right?

00:58:17.780 Agreed.

00:58:19.320 All right, guys.

00:58:20.060 Well, we're going to head to the question of the people.

00:58:21.880 Like I said, we might not get through all these because we're already almost up to an

00:58:24.800 hour, but we'll do our best before we start taking questions.

00:58:28.140 Pastor Wilson, is there anywhere you want people to check any new books coming out that

00:58:32.740 you want to make people aware of?

00:58:34.620 Uh, yes.

00:58:35.160 The next book that's coming out is a primer on Christian nationalism.

00:58:38.420 So I'm, um, following up the, after a mere Christendom, uh, a lot of questions were raised

00:58:45.140 and this is basically a book of FAQs on Christian nationalism.

00:58:49.420 So look for that in the next month or so.

00:58:52.820 Very good.

00:58:53.900 All right, guys, let's go to the questions here.

00:58:55.960 Creeper Weirdo says, Doug, I love blog and Mayblog.

00:58:59.900 It really helps me see things from the Christian perspective.

00:59:03.260 Also, Oren, you're welcome for the guest suggestion.

00:59:06.140 Yes.

00:59:06.320 Thank you very much, sir.

00:59:08.480 Uh, Robert, uh, Winesfield says, Oren has been, uh, has been listening, but too, too

00:59:13.760 busy.

00:59:14.320 Oh, sorry.

00:59:15.320 Oren, been listening, but too busy to listen live recently.

00:59:18.540 Appreciate both your work.

00:59:19.620 One of the few Jews who believes that the USA needs Christian nationalism.

00:59:23.580 Netter means no, uh, means no enemies, not no disagreements.

00:59:29.300 Okay here.

00:59:30.780 Uh, we have perspicacious heretic. 1.00

00:59:33.060 He says, it is time to drop, is it time to drop the term woke altogether?

00:59:37.420 Even when applied to the left, it seems to have become nebulous.

00:59:40.740 Yeah.

00:59:40.900 And this is actually my problem.

00:59:42.420 I think the end of Neil Shimvey and James Lindsay's effort is going to be to just make

00:59:47.460 woke no longer an effective weapon against the left.

00:59:50.160 I think that's actually going to be the end point of, of abusers in the term as we have

00:59:53.500 seen it.

00:59:53.840 Uh, that's a good point.

00:59:56.960 Uh, Kruper Weirdo says, it's woke fascism.

01:00:00.420 Okay.

01:00:00.960 Define fascism.

01:00:02.260 Silence.

01:00:02.820 Well, yeah, obviously that's a much larger problem.

01:00:05.460 I've gone into Paul Godfrey's work on, uh, what fascism actually is.

01:00:09.340 If you would like to go to, uh, that podcast, I did about an hour on that, but obviously the

01:00:14.340 abuse of that term has made it as useless as many of the other pejoratives that have been

01:00:18.460 thrown at us.

01:00:20.300 Agreed.

01:00:20.740 Uh, Johan Richardson says, when the oppressed desire, uh, remedy is to be left alone, their

01:00:28.280 complaints are less suspect when the oppressed demand as some financial reparations.

01:00:32.700 Yes, I agree actually.

01:00:33.940 So this is critical.

01:00:35.160 And this is why, like I said, you know, uh, that that's why I really disagree with Lindsay

01:00:39.740 and, and Shinvi and others labeling people who are pointing out anti-white hatred as being

01:00:45.060 woke, because the answer to anti-white hatred is to get rid of anti-white laws and attitudes

01:00:49.860 and things like corporations.

01:00:51.200 I'm not looking for specific, specific special honor treatment.

01:00:54.620 I'm looking for affirmative action, but for white dudes, cause they were held out again,

01:00:59.180 just asking for each equal weights and measures.

01:01:01.480 And I think that's, that's probably, uh, the, the most important difference when we

01:01:05.520 look at rather than just a presser and a press.

01:01:07.520 Okay.

01:01:07.880 What are you actually asking for?

01:01:09.420 And if the answer is special carve outs, uh, in perpetuity, then, uh, you're probably,

01:01:14.140 you're probably closer to the woke side than those who are just simply asking for

01:01:17.620 the removal of abusive laws.

01:01:19.380 Yes.

01:01:19.900 What fixes this?

01:01:21.400 Yes.

01:01:21.840 Right.

01:01:23.980 Uh, let's see here.

01:01:25.700 Uh, bro, man, Hank says, uh, it was a rather surreal to watch my country's president.

01:01:30.160 Like he was grilled in a headmaster's office.

01:01:32.920 I've never seen him that uncomfortable.

01:01:34.540 Yes.

01:01:34.860 I hope that that was cathartic for many of my South African, uh, listeners.

01:01:39.300 Uh, John Carter says, if pastor Wilson believes that Lindsay and Shinvi are adopting the framing

01:01:47.020 and weapons of the left, why doesn't he call for the people to associate for them as he

01:01:52.300 has for Isker and Webin?

01:01:53.760 And yeah, like I said, that was kind of my question as well.

01:01:56.440 What, why are guys, um, like that, the Babylon geek be getting a pass at this or TPUSA getting

01:02:02.280 a pass on this.

01:02:03.080 Uh, but everybody has to denounce, you know, uh, you know, all these other guys.

01:02:07.740 Yeah, I've gone after, I've gone after Shenvi, um, before. 1.00

01:02:11.640 And so I don't have any problem with saying, uh, call out problems, wherever you see them.

01:02:18.120 And the, basically there's a tendency to notice when someone is critiquing someone who's maybe

01:02:27.700 closer to you or someone who has your sympathies.

01:02:30.080 But I really, I really do believe that we ought to be even handed on this.

01:02:35.440 And I don't think Neil, I think Neil Shenvi is compromised because of his friendship with

01:02:40.660 JD Greer and what he's carrying water for, um, all the analysis that he offered, um, when

01:02:49.980 it came down to where it counted in his own church, uh, he, he wasn't able to see it.

01:02:56.440 So for another example of this, or wasn't willing to say something about it, uh, another example

01:03:02.160 of this was Carl Truman in his Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self.

01:03:06.400 That was, that was a marvelous book, wonderful, wonderful book.

01:03:10.060 And I was astounded that Carl Truman could see all those things so accurately and not see

01:03:15.540 what was going on with Amy Bird, uh, in his very own podcast.

01:03:20.000 Um, uh, friendships and personal connections are a mysterious thing, but I agree with the

01:03:27.260 questioner that we need, we really need to be even handed about this.

01:03:32.700 Fair enough.

01:03:33.520 Uh, Elijah and Tymon says to Wilson, by what reasonable mechanism and strategy would you

01:03:38.600 prevent black Americans from basing their solidarity on shared racial backgrounds?

01:03:42.600 Okay.

01:03:46.060 I don't have any objection to them basing actions on shared tribal background.

01:03:52.680 Um, but, you know, I, I think that the Bible speaks a lot in terms of tribes.

01:03:58.520 I think that, um, the Navajo are a tribe, um, blacks in America, American blacks are a more 0.94

01:04:06.900 inchoate tribe, uh, with a distinct subculture within America, but I think that the biblical term

01:04:14.740 ethnos, uh, is, can be reasonably applied to American.

01:04:19.440 I, I want to, I want to fight for the American tribal identity and that tribal identity is more 0.74

01:04:28.180 cosmopolitan than the tribal identity of Japan is.

01:04:32.440 So, uh, Japan or Northern Finland is more, um, ethnically thoroughbred than what we, we've

01:04:42.660 got sort of a, um, what, uh, it's not a melting pot.

01:04:47.720 Don't say the melting pot.

01:04:49.000 No, I was going to say, I'm not going to say the melting pot is, but it's more like a chef

01:04:53.780 salad, you know, all the, all the disparate elements are in there, but it's a thing in

01:05:00.400 itself.

01:05:00.860 So when I'm, when I meet, uh, a conservative black American businessman, one of the, uh,

01:05:08.560 one of the things I'm struck by is how thoroughly American he is.

01:05:13.520 And the fact that if you just considered his skin color and dropped him off in sub-Saharan

01:05:19.380 Africa, he'd be as almost as out of place as I would be. 1.00

01:05:23.780 Um, and so consequently, I, I want to, I want to defend America, uh, as a, as a tribal identity.

01:05:32.120 And I think it's worth fighting for it, worth preserving.

01:05:35.240 And I think that the open borders policy was a deliberate attempt to destroy that.

01:05:41.620 And I'm, uh, I'm objecting to fragmentation, uh, within America.

01:05:47.700 I mean, American blacks who've been here for 400 years are part of the picture.

01:05:52.480 They're, they're, they're part of what makes us, uh, a people.

01:05:56.560 And so I want to defend that.

01:05:58.640 I don't want to, uh, and I don't want to begrudge, uh, American blacks from acting in

01:06:05.700 a quasi tribal capacity, but it, what they ask for, what they look for should be equal

01:06:12.880 treatment, leave us alone. 0.99

01:06:14.620 They shouldn't be looking for reparations or affirmative action or anything like that.

01:06:20.100 Sure.

01:06:20.680 So I'll say this and I don't want to belabor it cause we're already running late, but I

01:06:24.540 fear we might have a case of Schrodinger's ethnicity here.

01:06:27.160 Um, you know, the, the, the black ethnicity is, is real, but then there's a grander, uh, American 0.99

01:06:34.560 ethnicity.

01:06:35.240 So there has to be other real ethnicities in the United States at that point, right?

01:06:39.900 That the black ethnicity gets, the ethnogenesis occurs for American blacks because they don't 1.00

01:06:45.760 have roots to tribe or language after being separation.

01:06:49.620 And so the shared, uh, ethnic trait of them is that the state they share this.

01:06:54.920 I'll give you one.

01:06:55.920 I'll give you one.

01:06:56.540 Uh, uh, instead of, I don't like saying there's this white tribal identity because I think that's 0.99

01:07:01.680 almost worthless, but I don't think Scott's Irish is worthless.

01:07:07.240 For example, if you, if you read the book, born fighting by, uh, James Webb, uh, I'm, my

01:07:13.360 people are Scott's and Scott's Irish and going all, all the way back. 0.95

01:07:17.560 And when I read that book, born fighting, I thought, holy moly, this explains a lot.

01:07:24.880 Right.

01:07:25.540 Billbillian elegy is itself a work of, uh, about an ethnos, right?

01:07:29.380 Yeah, correct.

01:07:30.080 I would describe it as a sub ethnos, um, in this, in the larger, uh, so in Rome, in the

01:07:37.420 Roman empire, you had all these sub ethnic groups, but Roman was a thing too.

01:07:42.040 Um, and when you have an isolated country, uh, and it's just mono ethnic like Japan and you 1.00

01:07:50.020 don't have, uh, an empire, uh, it's life is simple.

01:07:53.660 All right.

01:07:54.120 Everybody's Japanese, but when you have a, when you have a cosmopolitan empire, you have,

01:07:58.980 uh, Saul saying of the tribe of Benjamin of this, I'm a citizen of Tarsus, no mean city.

01:08:05.200 I'm a Roman citizen.

01:08:06.660 He's got layers of loyalties that have different things going on.

01:08:10.900 So when I go overseas, I'm a Yankee, but if I, but I'm only a Yankee here, if I live in

01:08:16.960 New England.

01:08:17.500 Right.

01:08:17.900 So I think that there are things like that, that have to be factored, uh, that have to

01:08:22.900 be factored in, but my, uh, heritage, my Scots Irish heritage is a thing, but I would say

01:08:33.680 this, my Scots Irish heritage is a thing, but it has almost nothing in common with Romanian

01:08:39.960 heritage, which would be just as white.

01:08:42.240 So I, I, I guess the problem with this, and, and I, again, we should probably have an entire

01:08:48.560 separate podcast because we could easily eat an hour on it.

01:08:51.980 Um, but the issue here is, uh, I think the deployment of ethnos as we understand it.

01:08:57.700 And I, I think there's, um, this is a far more complicated issue that the scaling up of

01:09:02.280 ethnos has always been a complicated process.

01:09:04.780 And if no other, I think the Roman empire is a good example, if for no other point that

01:09:09.180 the wider, the expanded Roman citizenship, the more of the thing fell apart, right? 0.72

01:09:13.520 Caracalla does not actually succeed in pulling the Roman empire together by just giving everyone

01:09:18.500 Roman citizenship.

01:09:19.700 That's exactly right.

01:09:20.940 Right.

01:09:21.280 And so I think what we actually have in the United States and here, I don't mean globally,

01:09:25.420 I mean, just on the continent is an empire made up of several different ethnosis. 0.88

01:09:30.140 And the only problem is that most people feel like every ethnos that isn't European is allowed 0.55

01:09:35.780 to advocate collectively for its wellbeing as where every European ethnos, whether it be

01:09:41.060 a unified white ethnos or whether it be a separate note, no one's running around talking about

01:09:45.880 the Scots Irish, no one's running around and talking about the Dutch community as a, as

01:09:51.360 a block that's allowed to wield political power and go ahead and argue on its own behalf.

01:09:56.220 And if they do, they're immediately called white nationalists.

01:09:59.140 And so I think that, but I would, I would argue for an Anglo protest, Anglo-Saxon Protestant 0.90

01:10:05.640 establishment.

01:10:07.500 I think that's our, I think that's our heritage and the Dutch can join it or they're not, they're 1.00

01:10:13.440 not, they're not Anglo-Saxon just like justice Scalia was not Anglo-Saxon, but there's a story

01:10:19.560 told of him.

01:10:20.100 He went back to Italy to reconnect with his roots and realize how out of place he was. 0.59

01:10:24.560 And he stopped in England on the way home and thought, Oh, these are my people.

01:10:28.860 This is, this is my heritage.

01:10:30.960 He belonged to an Anglo-Saxon, um, jurisprudential heritage.

01:10:37.060 I think that that is in our DNA and that is what we can rally around.

01:10:43.320 And that would include blacks. 0.94

01:10:45.580 Now, when I was, when I was a kid, um, the America was cosmopolitan in the ways we were describing,

01:10:52.340 but what we have now is because of Biden's open borders policy and the concerted effort

01:10:58.600 to drive a multiculturalist agenda.

01:11:01.100 What we have now is a cafeteria food fight.

01:11:03.840 We are, we are at the point where the strategy of diluting the American identity has almost

01:11:10.680 worked.

01:11:11.540 Right.

01:11:12.480 And it may still work.

01:11:13.760 We don't know.

01:11:14.220 So, uh, I guess again, you know, the, there, I agree with you a hundred percent on the Anglo 0.99

01:11:20.080 Protestant core of the American identity and the need to assimilate to it.

01:11:23.380 I reference it all the time, but Samuel Huntington's, who are we is a fantastic book on this topic.

01:11:29.180 I highly recommend it.

01:11:30.340 This guy is a center left Harvard professor, but he comes to the same position you and I

01:11:34.120 are advocating here.

01:11:35.380 That said, we kind of have to decide whether everyone is, uh, assimilating.

01:11:40.000 And therefore that's the standard.

01:11:42.360 I think you're right that at some point that was the standard for every community, including

01:11:45.580 the black community, uh, or, uh, whether we are advocating in different ethnic blocks

01:11:51.120 or not, we like you either, either, either black Americans and Asian Americans and whatever

01:11:57.560 Americans are allowed to advocate collectively, uh, along with Americans of European descent.

01:12:03.860 However, that breaks down, whether it's a unified white ethnos or as a, a separate, you

01:12:08.020 know, regional, uh, whatever, wherever your people came from, you know, Germany or whatever,

01:12:12.340 or we don't do that at all.

01:12:14.080 There, there has to be a similar standard.

01:12:16.120 So if the black, if, if the black tribe is allowed to advocate for black people, then 0.99

01:12:22.240 I, I, I quickly lose patience with people who are like, oh, well then no one can mention

01:12:27.920 that there might be a collective problem for other communities of European descent.

01:12:32.120 If we're all doing this together and that's the standard, that's fine.

01:12:35.200 But I, I just want a consistent answer to this question.

01:12:38.060 And it feels like, uh, it, those are very hard to get even when people are advocating

01:12:42.320 for them.

01:12:43.180 So if, if the black quasi, a sub tribe is advocating for the sorts of things that they ought to advocate 0.98

01:12:50.780 for, as in leave us alone, don't pick on us, leave us alone.

01:12:55.620 Let us live our lives.

01:12:57.180 Well, we were all back again, when I was a kid, we were already leaving the whites alone. 1.00

01:13:03.300 Right.

01:13:04.660 The, the, the blacks were getting the short end of the stick at that time because of

01:13:09.660 the unprotected class stuff and the age of entitlement, uh, there has been active discrimination

01:13:14.840 against whites. 0.67

01:13:16.240 And I have no problem at all against, with whites demanding to be left alone. 0.99

01:13:21.880 If, if there were, uh, if there are lawsuits that say you can't discriminate against me because

01:13:27.900 I'm white, I, I'm entirely in favor of that kind of defensive measure because all you're

01:13:33.640 asking for is to be left alone.

01:13:35.260 And I think that every group in America, black, yellow, white, whatever should, should, uh,

01:13:40.680 have the right to insist on being left alone.

01:13:43.220 Um, well, like I said, we can definitely turn that into its entire, uh, other discussion.

01:13:48.360 So we won't, uh, run down that rival hall any further, but I'd love to do that with you

01:13:52.500 sometime.

01:13:53.080 Yeah, absolutely.

01:13:53.700 We should definitely do another show with, uh, where we expand on that even more.

01:13:56.400 Uh, John Carter says echoes of Buckley justifying why no injustice was done to sobering. 0.95

01:14:02.440 We don't need any more beautiful losers. 1.00

01:14:04.640 Uh, yeah, again, I, I, I echo the concern often that this feels like a, an attempt at another, 0.98

01:14:09.980 uh, Buckleyite purge.

01:14:11.880 Um, yeah, the, the, the problem with, the problem with that is that I am a big sobering fan.

01:14:20.600 Right.

01:14:21.300 And, and, and in that whole, in our sobering, um, meltdown or parting of the ways, I think

01:14:28.220 it was, um, tragic what happened to Joe sobering.

01:14:31.960 He, I've read his stuff, appreciated his stuff.

01:14:34.960 And the, uh, as I'm fond of putting it, put it to, to you this way.

01:14:39.360 Like I'm pretty eclectic and pretty Catholic when it comes to other people doing things

01:14:43.960 that I wouldn't do.

01:14:45.160 Um, let other people do what I wouldn't do.

01:14:48.820 What I object to is people wanting me to do things that I wouldn't do.

01:14:54.900 Um, you know, leave me out of it.

01:14:58.000 Deal me, deal me out.

01:14:59.920 And if you deal me out, then I'm pretty, pretty broad-minded.

01:15:04.460 Fair enough.

01:15:05.200 Uh, let's see here.

01:15:07.100 Johan, uh, Richardson says, uh, post-white CRA has been, uh, subjected to a systemic oppression,

01:15:12.980 real concrete acts, which can be evidenced, not systemic, uh, uh, systemic oppression,

01:15:18.360 which is just a, uh, um, imputation from mere existence of inequality.

01:15:23.920 Uh, yeah.

01:15:24.580 And I think we both kind of acknowledge that at this point.

01:15:26.700 So I think we agree.

01:15:27.720 I agree.

01:15:28.680 Yeah.

01:15:29.640 Uh, Johan Richardson says, Vladimir Putin never called me into DEI training.

01:15:33.860 Yeah.

01:15:34.020 He, he does have that one thing going for you, though.

01:15:36.180 He might poison you.

01:15:37.060 So, you know, take your pick there.

01:15:38.900 Yeah.

01:15:39.080 Uh, let's see.

01:15:40.700 I'd rather be shot than have to go through DEI training.

01:15:44.100 Yeah.

01:15:44.340 Yeah.

01:15:44.540 For real.

01:15:44.980 Uh, Gulf city librarian says, can Doug read Luke 17, two, please?

01:15:49.700 I'm sure you would know that address better than I would.

01:15:52.760 Uh, Luke 17, two is, uh, Jesus says, that's the passage where if a brother sins against you

01:16:00.300 seven times in one day, I'm not sure about verse two though.

01:16:04.720 Okay.

01:16:05.800 So yeah, probably perhaps talking about the system of rebuking other Christians might

01:16:10.180 be the implication there.

01:16:11.180 I can pull it up real quick and might as well read scripture on, uh, on stream.

01:16:16.900 Let's do it.

01:16:17.480 That's right.

01:16:17.820 Is that legal?

01:16:19.160 Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm pretty sure if YouTube takes this down, then we went down for the

01:16:22.660 right reason.

01:16:24.140 All right. 0.62

01:16:24.800 Luke 17, two, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck and

01:16:33.400 cast into the sea that he should offend one of these little ones.

01:16:36.600 Uh, so one and two.

01:16:38.180 Um, so I'm guessing that that's an oblique reference to one of the slanders that's going 0.83

01:16:43.760 on, uh, going around about us.

01:16:46.500 Okay.

01:16:48.460 All right.

01:16:49.300 Uh, battle gnome 23 says I reject the moral equivalence of woke, right?

01:16:53.920 No padre.

01:16:54.540 There is no, uh, good guys on the other side of child general mutilation and weaponized

01:16:59.120 mass migration.

01:16:59.860 There is a good side and a bad side.

01:17:01.840 No ambiguity.

01:17:02.680 I don't think that Doug was saying there was no good side or bad side.

01:17:05.460 I don't, I don't think that's a fair representation.

01:17:06.920 And, and I, I don't think I agree that there's no good side to advocacy of genital mutilation.

01:17:13.500 Right.

01:17:13.760 I think we can all agree.

01:17:14.840 There's no good faith application of that.

01:17:16.820 Right.

01:17:17.280 Uh, Chris Tisking says, Doug, why do you show more affection for those who are open pagans

01:17:22.100 in theory and application?

01:17:23.500 The Christians you disagree with on how long it takes for some people with pre, uh, dispositions

01:17:29.220 to be sanctified.

01:17:30.500 Uh, I'm not sure about everything in that question, but if you are, I'll let you, uh,

01:17:34.560 take a swing at it.

01:17:35.620 Um, yeah.

01:17:36.620 So for example, I traveled with Christopher Hitchens and, and was, we clashed on stage

01:17:42.160 and debated with him, but I got along with him famously.

01:17:44.740 I, we, we got along very, very well.

01:17:47.820 Uh, and I was seeking to reach him evangelistically.

01:17:50.380 I was trying to win him for the Lord and he was willing for that.

01:17:54.760 Right.

01:17:55.100 So I've clashed plenty when, when, uh, pagans are hostile and coming after us.

01:18:02.240 I've, I fight like a berserker.

01:18:04.800 You know, I don't, I don't have any problem fighting with atheists and non-believers, uh,

01:18:10.640 but they're atheists and non-believers that are coming after us.

01:18:15.160 Take, but take, for example, an atheist and a non-believer of an unregenerate man like 0.90

01:18:20.000 Joe Rogan, who's asking honest questions, right?

01:18:24.160 I heard he's actually been going to a church regularly.

01:18:26.400 Right.

01:18:26.600 I just saw that this morning.

01:18:27.760 He's been going to church.

01:18:29.020 Now, someone like that, I, I don't, I don't have any problem with a Christian seeking to

01:18:34.900 win someone like Joe Rogan.

01:18:36.400 That's like Paul talking to Sergius Paulus or to King Agrippa or to Felix and Festus.

01:18:42.520 Um, but when, uh, when people come after you as persecutors, haters attacking you,

01:18:49.420 you defend yourself.

01:18:51.280 All right.

01:18:51.520 So, uh, so basically I, I would deny the premise of the question.

01:18:56.760 I fight with hostile pagans and I fight with, uh, uh, professing Christians who are behaving 1.00

01:19:05.400 very badly.

01:19:06.080 I'll fight with both and I will get along amicably and have a nice lunch appointment with either

01:19:11.700 one.

01:19:12.060 And we can talk about issues like civilized people.

01:19:17.400 And we've got seaside life here saying the calling out of Corey helped me actually, even

01:19:21.720 though they are right on a couple of topics, they are not a podcast I would listen to anymore.

01:19:26.300 So perhaps a vote, uh, in, uh, the favor of Doug Wilson strategy there.

01:19:31.580 Thanks.

01:19:32.200 All right.

01:19:32.960 Well, let's go ahead and wrap this up.

01:19:34.820 It's been a pleasure speaking with you, pastor Wilson.

01:19:37.000 And of course, everyone should be checking out, uh, your work over there so they can

01:19:41.400 better understand your arguments.

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01:20:02.980 Thank you everybody for watching.

01:20:04.100 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

01:20:07.000 Bye.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - May 21, 2025

Adopting the Terms of the Enemy ｜ Guest： Doug Wilson ｜ 5⧸21⧸25

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