An Atheist Libertarian and Christian Reactionary Agree on Localism｜ Guest： Jeremy Kauffman ｜ 7⧸10⧸24
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Summary
Jeremy Kaufman is the former CEO of Library and the former Executive Director of the Free State Project. He's also the founder of Odyssey, a technology company that helped create a free speech absolutist product that is still used by tens of millions of people today.
Transcript
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We hope you're enjoying your Air Canada flight.
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Fast-free Wi-Fi means I can make dinner reservations before we land.
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Wi-Fi available to Airplane members on Equipped Flight.
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I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.
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So I've been doing a little bit of jabbing and having some fun on Twitter
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talking about right-leaning atheists and libertarians.
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Many people who have seen my show or my Twitter know that this is one of my pastimes.
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But like I said, on Twitter I do this not because I think that these people are bad
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But ultimately I think they're very close to the truth and they're people that I like
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talking to, interacting with, because ultimately I think that we have enough common ground to
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And my guest today is somebody who said, hey, I'm one of those guys and I would love to talk
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He is the former CEO of Library and the former executive director over at the Free State Project.
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First they talk to you online and then they say, join my podcast.
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So, Jeremy, for people who might not be familiar with some of your background, can you explain
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a little bit like maybe what Library was, what the Free State Project is, and kind of
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I'm like a character of a right-wing libertarian.
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I'm like the guy in the very bottom right of the graph that calls everyone else a communist,
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And I ran a tech company that got basically sued out of, it's technically not out of existence
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yet, but basically got sued out of existence by the federal government.
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We lost a five-year court case in which the judge strongly deferred to the SEC's interpretation
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So it would have been nice to have the Chevron case a couple of years earlier.
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But yeah, I spent, that company was used by tens of millions of people.
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So we were keeping a lot of content online during COVID and other eras that was unpopular.
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A lot of people know that company via its product, Odyssey, which I think is still used by tens
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of millions of people, but I'm not involved anymore.
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And then I was also the executive director of the Free State Project, which is this movement
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to concentrate libertarians in New Hampshire and to create a libertarian society or a libertarian
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And so, you know, we're actually dealing with a lot of these questions, you know, I think
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You know, we kind of have recognized, I think a lot of things that you and your audience have
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recognized about how, you know, America has failed as well as why America has failed or
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It's still the greatest country in the world, right?
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And if we take people with a certain worldview and who recognize this and get them together,
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And so we've actually been sort of marching through the institutions here where we have
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There's around 100 state legislators who are graded as an A on their libertarian ratings.
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We have the House majority leader, but we also have police officers and librarians and
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And so we've been trying to build up something new here.
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And so we're also dealing with these, you know, we've stopped being critics and we're
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And so that's also, you know, these are very interesting questions as we're trying to build
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Yeah, that's really fantastic, because like you said, so many people, both libertarian
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and conservative, will talk about small government, talk about the importance of the political
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process, but have no interest in actually getting involved.
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So the fact that you've been kind of boots on the ground in multiple areas is really,
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I think Odyssey is a great product, and I hope that there's some way to keep that alive, because
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And I think a lot of people use that, especially because of the censorious nature of YouTube
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and other platforms, it's really indispensable.
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So it's valuable work being done, and I appreciate the practical application there.
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It's not just talking the talk, it's walking the walk.
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So guys, we're going to dive deeper into libertarianism, small government, maybe some
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of the places that we overlap and some of the places we diverge.
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So let's talk a little bit at the beginning, maybe some places where we agree and that we
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But before we began this stream, we were talking off stage about how you were familiar with
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a lot of the neo-reactionary criticisms, mold bug and land and these people.
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And, you know, this is the joke so often it's the libertarian to reactionary pipeline.
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And with good reason, you know, Curtis Yarvin is essentially just a disillusioned
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and, you know, land is also very, very heavily drawing from people like Hoppe when he's writing
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So there's a very strong libertarian strain running through NRX.
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It just kind of takes it to a different conclusion.
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But maybe you could talk a little bit about the parts of this that you find compelling,
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the places where you might agree, and some of the things that you think maybe it goes too
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far in some direction or you think it misses something.
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Well, you know, I'll say some of it ultimately gets too theoretical for me in the sense that
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I and I disagree with a lot of libertarians here as well in terms of, you know, they think
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that they can figure out all these answers, you know, well before experience.
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You know, I've been an entrepreneur basically my whole adult life.
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And one of the things you learn as an entrepreneur repeatedly is you're wrong, you know, constantly.
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And so to me, it's like, well, we know the problem.
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So I guess we're like, I'm wholly agreed is like these problems, these problems of liberal
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democracy, that you're sort of egalitarianism as the sort of American civic religion and
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that it's all and that this is a false religion, you know, and so these these sort of ideas which
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come from that school, I think they're entirely correct.
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But I don't see and I guess I see it as broadly compatible.
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You know, if you're trying to if you're from the school of libertarianism that I am from,
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which is basically your private property absolutism, you know, you're trying to ultimately use private
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property absolutism to have your sort of competition between qualities, between governments.
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I mean, that's that to me is is is sort of the ideal system and you can have your your
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your Christian nationalism and it can be competing with, you know, progressive multiculturalism
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Or maybe there's third or fourth or all kinds of other alternatives.
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You know, but for me, I would want the society that I would want and that I think most free
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staters want is one that's very, very, very strong property rights and using those property
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rights to come together to create private property order.
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And if you read Hoppe's work, I mean, he's he is you're basically completely agreed with,
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you know, someone people in these schools in terms of the types of government I think that
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Neocameralism seems pretty compatible with a large amount of of what many libertarians
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This is a perhaps a different strain of it, but it has a lot of overlap with the ability
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to compete and have the different governments go ahead.
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And, you know, there would be probably too absolute of a government hand, I guess, in any given
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patch when it comes to certain certain strains of neocameralism.
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But you would have the option to go to a different one, right?
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Yeah, I mean, I actually feel like I'm often the guy who's being the opposite of those who's
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going around to conservatives and being like, look, libertarianism is actually a solution
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You know, if you if you as a conservative had stronger local private property rights and
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didn't have the federal government enforcing civil rights law on you and enforcing all these
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laws on you, you could have a society that you want locally.
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You might not get an America that you want, but you would have a local society that you want.
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I live in Manchester, New Hampshire, and for the last 10 years, the city has not been able
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to clear homeless people camping off the sidewalks.
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On Tuesday, the aldermen voted 12 to 2 to clear him out.
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And on Wednesday, they sent they they sent the cops through the streets and kicked every
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And that, you know, they were they would have done that years ago.
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There's the federal government who didn't let them do it, you know.
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And so, you know, having like localism allows everyone to satisfy their preferences more,
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And so so for for conservatives, you know, I think in libertarianism could be a pathway to
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Yeah, no, I mean, in many ways, I've suggested the same things you are suggesting just from
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a from a different frame with perhaps a different orientation for the to the good.
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But either way, the the the line of pursuit is the same to to get to those goals.
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That's only available if you go ahead and strip away the ability of the national government
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And only if you take a level of interest in your area that allows you to go ahead and
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I guess the problem for in this is, you know, I hate to spend all of the time of any discussion
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defining terms, but I think it does matter in this case because it's a huge, huge issue.
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So when you say libertarian, right, most people who aren't libertarians think of a guy
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dancing on stage in his underwear, demanding a lower age of consent and, you know, complete
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I understand that's not what libertarian, you know, what you are.
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That's where I'm not where many Mises type libertarians are.
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I think, for instance, I've been preaching this to Dave Smith forever.
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Like half your party doesn't believe in what you believe in.
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It's so clear because you just put an open borders, you know, pro pro transfer.
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Kid guy in, you know, in the presidential slot when you have two of the least popular,
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least, you know, viable presidential candidates of all time.
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If there was ever a moment for the libertarian party to provide this amazing third option,
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when one guy is so senile, he can barely get on stage and the other guy is probably going
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You think this would be the moment for the libertarian party, but we can't seem to get
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a right-leaning libertarian candidate, which makes me wonder if maybe you guys aren't
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And just holding on to a phrase that's damaging more than anything else.
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Well, first, I mean, I think we should all just take this moment to pause and blame
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I think he could have some great things to say right now.
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Well, I could just dig, I could just counter dig and say, well, Republicans are, you know,
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So I will say there's a funny, I mean, I don't really disagree with your criticism.
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I mean, I think I would argue that, you know, this is what the right, the left enters and
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And so you're giving the right wing solution here, which is abandon the word libertarian
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It is funny, the dynamic, the way it plays out in the Libertarian Party is exactly the
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same way it plays out with like the press or almost every other institution where
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the left is the center, you know, so the left can't admit that they're the left.
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So you have all these libertarians with leftist moral institutions, right, moral intuitions
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rather, they have universalist intuitions, they have egalitarian intuitions, and so they
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have left wing positions on borders and these other things, but they can't acknowledge that
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And the right wing can't, right, because the right wing is like, oh, yeah, we're right
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And so you have this funny thing where like the left wants to claim the center as the
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end, but then the right has to be explicitly labeled.
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And so this idea that libertarians are neither left nor right is completely false.
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So it's not, you know, there may be some libertarians who are in the center of that
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distribution, but it's a clearly an aspect of our personalities.
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And so the libertarians who deny that tend to be utopians.
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And, and they embarrass me regularly, but of course they feel that I would embarrass them,
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But I, but I don't think you give up the word, I guess, to, to try to bring the, to make
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I just don't think if you, if you give up the word, you have to, um, it's what, it's
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I mean, there's, there's a whole, there's 50 years of books, uh, you know, uh, you know,
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written about this and you could pull up the Wikipedia of any of my intellectual heroes
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So, you know, the fact that it's an unfortunate fact that the libertarian party concentrates the
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group of people that it concentrates, but we shouldn't let the party define the word.
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I think, yeah, I think that the trichotomies are much more useful when you're thinking
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And that's one of the issues that we have right now is we try to think about this left
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But the other thing that I wonder for the libertarians is ultimately, I think the problem
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that you run into is that small government or liberty is not actually a politically
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This is the same problem with Marxists in class is, you know, the, the, they want to
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create this, uh, universal organization along class lines.
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But the problem is it ignores realities about human identity that means that it's constantly
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trying to organize people across an axis that simply does not universalize.
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They call themselves libertarian or they say maybe we're for small government, but ultimately
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that really just hides more preferences that are more true to a specific identity.
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And therefore you have this breakdown across that access because the people who are for
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small government in one area are actually not for small government in most other areas.
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They, they simply assume those things are, are automatic, that those axioms are fundamental.
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And then they only want small government in the areas that aren't, you know, that aren't that.
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And so I think that that's why you keep running into this issue.
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You know, the, the left libertarians are small government, as long as it produces a leftist, uh, society.
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And the right libertarians are small government, as long as it produces a right leaning society.
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But that's not their actual organizing principle.
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I think that that's part of the problem as well.
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A lot of libertarians like to believe that they're not consequentialists, but almost everyone's
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You believe these things because of, of what you think will be on the other side of these
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If it turned out that, uh, you know, strong private property rights, you know, somehow
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resulted in some sort of like, you know, every human dying.
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I don't know why, but like somehow, like, of course you wouldn't believe in that anymore
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You know, so, so yeah, I think, I think, you know, basically, um, these sort of, it's
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It's good to have things that you will or won't do on principle, but part of the point
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of those principles is what they ultimately end up creating, I think at the end of the
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And it's, and, and so I think almost everyone in their politics actually is ultimately working
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Like I would, I would thrive under free markets.
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Uh, and, uh, and so I've adopted a political philosophy in which, you know, the government
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who holds back people from creating and inventing things is the bad guy.
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You know, uh, how convenient, of course, it's also better for everyone else.
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Uh, you know, but like everyone, it's, it's just remarkable how everyone, um, simultaneously
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the philosophy that they believe that's better for everyone else does seem to also be one
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Well, you're helping the poor in a way that gives you status, right?
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You're helping the poor in a way that you get to be the bureaucrat and the manager and
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the, you know, and all of these, you know, and all of these things.
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And so, you know, I think, um, I think most people's politics tend to be self-serving
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And so this also explains why you get the kinds of, you know, there is a portion of
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libertarian party member who, uh, I think once government, uh, a way for reasons that
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I would consider not great, you know, the sort of more libertine, uh, side of, of, of
00:19:06.400
Uh, now I'm libertarian enough that I will also criticize the conservatives, you know,
00:19:10.500
to me, it's like, if you want to go and bomb Mexico, like that should be privately funded,
00:19:14.360
you know, you shouldn't be making me pay, you know, like, you know, when, when, so, um,
00:19:19.480
uh, but yeah, I think that, I think that this is absolutely what's driving it.
00:19:23.760
And so there are, there are some, I don't want to go around attacking libertarians.
00:19:28.360
I think the majority of libertarian party members like are decent people.
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Um, and I think honestly, the majority of libertarian party members also aren't, probably
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aren't ultimately happy with the choice that they, they got, uh, and, and feel like they,
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I'm not, I'm not, I'm not here to get people to vote for Chase Alderman.
00:19:47.900
And, and, and as a, and as a democracy disrespector, I'm not here to try to compel anyone to vote
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for anything that's, you know, it's, but then it's just, it's, like I said, it's a constant
00:20:00.220
problem that I think the libertarian party runs into, which is no different to be fair, again,
00:20:06.040
The, the conservatives have a similar issue that that that's not really, uh, you know,
00:20:10.180
I'm not pointing out a specific weakness in libertarians themselves so much as political
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organization as a whole, not understanding, especially in the American context, kind of
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what actually binds these parties together, what binds these coalitions together.
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So democracy is the problem or democracy is our problem.
00:20:25.720
Maybe it's the problem, but so what do you, where do you get, what do you put your energy
00:20:31.300
And this is always, you know, uh, where I think, uh, you know, mold bug ultimately, or
00:20:43.300
And he would, he would prefer a joint stock corporation.
00:20:45.160
I'm like, all right, I can, I can kind of go along with this.
00:20:48.240
Uh, you know, there's not his plan though, was something like everyone should wear a certain
00:20:55.060
And then when there's enough of us, well, it was like, that's not a real plan, you know?
00:20:58.460
And so similarly, even when he had his debate with Rufo, you know, to me, it's like, well,
00:21:11.500
So it's like, where, where is the, where is the momentum?
00:21:16.680
Where's the thing that's going to be built where eventually something is going to actually
00:21:20.200
Cause I don't really see that happening at all.
00:21:23.800
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So I'm with you to be clear that I think Ruffo's the most effective right-wing activists we've
00:23:04.420
seen in a very long time and that practical wins do matter.
00:23:09.100
So I think that Yarvin's approach to this whole thing of, well, you just kind of sit around and
00:23:16.560
wait for the elites to switch sides and then kind of the whole thing just kind of cascades
00:23:22.240
is not in itself a great idea because Yarvin is himself a kind of liberal elite.
00:23:32.100
His kids are always going to get to go to private schools and live in safe areas.
00:23:36.680
And so all of these problems are really beneath him.
00:23:39.920
Ultimately, while he might have sympathies with the Chuds, he's not of the Chuds.
00:23:44.660
And so he always kind of has this hands-off approach because it's not really his problem
00:23:51.040
He's going to be living in areas where that's never going to really touch him ultimately.
00:23:55.960
And also being a materialist in a very strict sense, you know, that these things do not
00:24:01.500
the continuity of these things do not bother him the same way they might bother someone
00:24:07.660
But I do think that there is a, I do think that there's a version of this that ultimately
00:24:14.640
recognizes that we are going to be moving towards an apocalypse shift.
00:24:20.140
I, I think that the idea that we're going to have a practical bootstrapping of, uh, kind
00:24:28.000
of the, the, you know, Mr. Smith goes to Washington solution to our problem simply doesn't exist.
00:24:33.480
And I think that's more what Yarvin is opposing in Rufo is that he brings back the faith of,
00:24:41.380
well, but there is a, there is a, there is a Mr. Smith goes to Washington solution.
00:24:45.000
There is a point at which you get enough political capital together and you just switch
00:24:49.460
things back to, you know, 1980s, Reagan, America, and that kind of solves your problem.
00:24:54.700
This is not my criticism of Rufo to be clear, but I think that that's more of the reason
00:25:03.740
And I, and I, I think there's something to that criticism, but to me, it's like, well,
00:25:09.420
Like what either, either if it's, um, and if it's not a formal thing, because it can't
00:25:14.040
be formal, at least who's it being built around, you know, where, because if you're
00:25:19.400
going to, if you're going to do this, the elites have to switch like two aside, you know,
00:25:24.560
around someone or around some institution around something, you know, if Yarvin's, uh,
00:25:32.260
if Yarvin is critical of, of Rufo, uh, you know, uh, becoming, uh, you know, reenabling
00:25:38.640
this, this, this, this faith in something fake, he should be building up Rufo as like becoming
00:25:45.700
Or, well, I have this, I've been trying to meme Thomas Massey into becoming king.
00:25:50.180
I went up to him at the libertarian convention and I asked him if he would consider seizing
00:25:55.620
And I just like, I keep posting it on, on Twitter.
00:25:58.100
Cause it's like, that's the only thing I can think.
00:26:00.580
I'm not, I don't, I'm not that, uh, I've got better off being like a, a gesture, a
00:26:06.680
Um, but you know, like, uh, you know, we need one, uh, we need someone who's going
00:26:10.840
to be, oh, not, maybe not literally a king, but we need someone who's going to like bring
00:26:14.060
that kind of, or maybe literally, maybe, maybe, maybe I'm not ruling it out if it was
00:26:20.060
And this is one that drives me nuts with the libertarians, but I think I've actually been
00:26:24.860
Um, you know, which is that it's the people who interpret the words are much more interpret
00:26:29.000
than the, are much, much more important than the words.
00:26:32.580
Um, you know, that Massey as King is better than the constitution and all of American status
00:26:38.040
Like you could throw it all away and say Massey King and you would get, you would get more
00:26:42.200
He would embody, he would embody more of the constitution's actual intent than the current
00:26:51.340
It's shockingly hard for me to get people to understand that a word is a referent to
00:26:59.920
And when two people read words, they don't experience the same thing.
00:27:04.160
So like, yes, they read and say they both agree with the words, but they're not, that's
00:27:16.740
And this is also, and we can do this debate as well.
00:27:18.780
Like I'm, I'm, I'm ultimately end up being, you know, not, um, an objectivist and somewhat
00:27:24.940
of a relativist because of this, because like our values do seem to be somewhat inherent
00:27:33.340
And if, if our values are inherent, even if I think there's an objective moral truth,
00:27:38.440
which I kind of do, there's a part of me that does believe that there's an objective
00:27:42.040
moral good, but if I also recognize that you have that same intuition and your intuition
00:27:49.300
suggests something different, it feels like a sort of mutual, a sort of not tolerance in
00:27:56.440
our, in our own spaces for each other's, but like there has to be, otherwise it's a
00:28:01.340
So there has to be some kind of tolerance for different things in different spaces.
00:28:05.940
You know, even if I feel that it's wrong in my own head, you know, I don't know, that's
00:28:21.840
She'll take one sniff and be transported to that anniversary trip you took to Saint-Tropez
00:28:27.340
She complained about her sunburn the whole trip.
00:28:42.220
So speaking of these shared communities, we both kind of recognize the importance of the
00:28:52.540
And that's really my answer to your question is, okay, how do we do this?
00:28:56.960
Well, ultimately, at the national level, we want to work towards a preference cascade,
00:29:02.820
That's really what Moldbug's talking about, ultimately, when he's not super clear about
00:29:08.400
He's talking about the elite preference cascade that honestly seems to be underway in a lot
00:29:15.280
You can see a lot of Silicon Valley guys, a lot of guys who probably have a more libertarian
00:29:20.220
understanding of the world, even if they're a little bit more on the left.
00:29:23.640
They understand that what the regime is doing now is ultimately destructive to their ends.
00:29:31.380
If you're, you know, Sachs or Musk or something, you recognize that however much you might not
00:29:37.800
agree with certain parts of the conservative right, they're going to put you in a position
00:29:42.700
to achieve more than the current progressive regime is going to achieve.
00:29:46.620
And so in some ways, I think you're hoping for that preference cascade at the national level.
00:29:50.620
But that is not something that everyone can work towards.
00:29:56.680
You can't just go to everybody and be like, sit tight, watch your Netflix, eat your Burger
00:30:01.260
King and wait until the elites flip the switch to make life good again.
00:30:07.220
That's not even a good thing to tell people, even if that was the real situation, which
00:30:11.580
And so ultimately, the broader project is reducing things to that local level, like you said,
00:30:20.620
One is that a large amount of the problem that we are in is due to the massification of society
00:30:29.360
The reason we're in the position we're in is not an accident.
00:30:33.320
There's a systemic issue built into the way we've structured society that drives us towards
00:30:43.340
But also because this reinvests people into meaningful community interactions, which actually
00:30:52.440
So if we want to reground people and I guess is re-racinate anyway, root them back into
00:31:02.360
And finally, these communities being created is the thing that actually creates small government.
00:31:07.500
You know, this is always my problem with with many libertarians.
00:31:12.040
I'm not saying you because I don't know where your position is on this, but many libertarians
00:31:17.360
They think that small government creates desirable communities or is a goal in and of itself as
00:31:24.000
where I believe that small government is a fruit of a virtuous community that has been
00:31:31.020
ordered in a way that allows the government to do less and less.
00:31:34.800
So small government is a good, but it's a good that comes from an already virtuous, robust
00:31:42.640
And so that's why I would agree with a lot of your solutions, even if maybe we we might
00:31:47.860
order our priorities that come out of those things differently.
00:31:53.940
Well, I'll tell you in the in the New Hampshire movement, I would say this is this is actually
00:31:57.800
probably one of the areas of biggest internal division.
00:32:01.180
We have plenty of our own on the sort of more, you know, utopian side here.
00:32:05.600
We're like, well, once everyone see everyone will want to be a libertarian once they see
00:32:09.760
how great it is, you know, and I'm not so convinced that that's true.
00:32:14.080
I think that the central problem is, you know, your selection mechanism for people.
00:32:22.580
How do you make sure the right people are coming to New Hampshire and the wrong kinds of
00:32:28.240
people aren't and ideally the wrong kinds of people are actively leaving the state because
00:32:38.240
And right now we try to do it like mostly through memes, you know, essentially or vibes, you
00:32:47.080
No, no, it's absolutely it's far better than other other ways.
00:32:51.240
Well, yeah, but there is a real question of, you know, you know, how do you how do you
00:32:55.940
And this also I'm I'm someone who believes that things are are mostly the way that they
00:33:07.160
Like, I think humans tend towards sort of crabs in a bucket, egalitarian sort of style
00:33:16.440
I think that is the sort of natural state of man only when we feel and this is actually
00:33:26.100
I would give as much credit for getting me down this way of thinking as anyone else because
00:33:29.100
he turned me on to, you know, Rene Girard and these other interesting thinkers.
00:33:33.120
But this idea that, you know, the envy as this fundamental motivator for for humans and
00:33:39.200
what that we get the Thiel believes that we get a better America when America has an
00:33:45.280
enemy like that's part of where I actually think he is is sort of more quote.
00:33:51.020
I don't believe he's actually like xenophobic in any real way, but I think part of it is
00:33:54.900
he wants America to have an enemy because that makes America better.
00:34:00.260
We stop looking at our having these jealous competitions with our neighbor when we feel
00:34:06.120
that we need to be working together to defeat the foreign.
00:34:09.660
And so this idea that in order to if you want humans to be working together in these
00:34:17.000
pro-social groups, you know, growing together and achieving things when we're at our best,
00:34:22.580
we're actually at our best when we're worried about losing, you know, when we feel that we're
00:34:26.200
faced by some either an existential it could be a natural threat, you know, but when there's
00:34:30.620
something existential, there's something that we're facing.
00:34:32.820
Whereas when we have all the resources in the world, we turn to court bickering, you
00:34:38.140
know, we turn to playing these kinds of of games or these kinds of status games or whatever.
00:34:43.200
And and I don't know, that's kind of an uncomfortable thing to be true, but I think it's like possibly
00:34:48.780
So if you want if you want your group to be working together and not infighting, you know,
00:34:55.220
you need to be pointing it towards something as as the the foreign that needs to be defeated
00:35:00.460
or this other existential threat that needs to be surmounted.
00:35:03.840
It turns out friend enemy politics is politics.
00:35:11.900
So, I mean, that's what I'm so interested in, though, is like, because I'm very here's
00:35:15.520
here's another I've been I had this question on my mind for like several years and I still
00:35:19.640
Just like if you were literally starting out like you get you get to write the Constitution
00:35:24.340
and you get to pick the first 100 people, so you get to see the entire thing.
00:35:28.640
So you get to see the words and the word interpreter.
00:35:33.620
Because you do want to have it grow to millions of people like the idea of a nation that can
00:35:37.700
contain millions of people, I think, is at least theoretically possible.
00:35:45.900
How do you end up with good people in charge and not bad people?
00:35:49.180
How do you prevent bad ideas, you know, from, you know, from from taking hold of this kind
00:35:56.140
And and there's so much more criticism than there is positive answers out there.
00:36:10.160
So I actually think that by the experience and I'm I'm not trying to evade the the question
00:36:17.680
here, but I'm just giving the what I think is the honest answer here, which is I think
00:36:21.280
thought experience like this missed the point of civilization for several reasons.
00:36:27.520
One, I don't think that you actually can have a nation that scales up that widely.
00:36:33.360
I think that's actually what destroys nations because that misses what a nation is.
00:36:38.580
A nation is a, you know, the pre the nation state.
00:36:43.660
Because the nation, the state are not the same thing.
00:36:48.060
A nation is a people who share a history, tradition, faith, language.
00:36:55.520
And so the best states take the aspects of the emergent aspects of the nation into account,
00:37:03.040
which is why Joseph DeMaister said that no man has ever written a political constitution,
00:37:08.520
that all political constitutions are divinely inspired.
00:37:14.040
But you get my my drift here, that that the innate aspects, the organic aspects of the
00:37:20.020
nation are what forge the traditions, the folk ways, the understandings that then become
00:37:28.960
And so when we look at a nation and we say, if I was designing a nation, we've already failed
00:37:38.100
What binds people together are not rational, contractual selection mechanisms or binding
00:37:45.840
They are organic instantiations of ways of being that elude us when we attempt to hyper
00:37:54.280
And the failure of liberalism is largely the attempt to post hoc construct a volunteerist
00:38:02.380
or blank slate idea of what a nation can be, and then try to apply that to tens or hundreds
00:38:13.640
Okay, I would probably, I could respond to that in a lot of ways.
00:38:20.840
But I think that the most important question, though, is still like, like nations happen,
00:38:34.680
It is like you can look at history and say, hey, you know, these people had good intentions,
00:38:42.460
And now we're in a moment where there are no more, there are no more, there are no more
00:38:50.100
So it used to be new things were started because you could go to a frontier.
00:38:57.420
I actually think we're entering an unprecedented era where people are now forming proto-nations
00:39:05.000
online, the sort of Balaji-Sernivasan network state hypothesis.
00:39:11.320
This is happening both formally and informally, where you'll see like, you can find, you can
00:39:16.080
find Russians who are into like Appalachian, you know, pickup truck rolling coal culture
00:39:22.740
who like look like they are from Appalachia and they live in Russia, you know, and this
00:39:29.760
So we're seeing this happen horizontally and they're joining, they're joining a proto-nation,
00:39:35.360
you know, and now people are also physically relocating themselves.
00:39:39.440
People move to Florida, people move to New Hampshire, people leave California.
00:39:43.920
Some people go to those places, hopefully as well.
00:39:46.280
So hopefully the liberals are leaving New Hampshire and Florida and going to other places.
00:39:53.000
And so this will be, these are the early stages.
00:39:56.580
If there is to be a political realignment, it's going to happen through this force.
00:40:07.660
Even though the Free State Project was planned, it was as much of a nudge as anything else.
00:40:14.380
But I still think it's good to say, okay, like, you know, or the, something happening
00:40:20.100
organically often involves lots of local people thinking rationally.
00:40:25.440
You know, so I'm sure you, I'm sure you agree with that.
00:40:27.900
And so like, okay, what can we, you know, I still think it's healthy to think about what
00:40:36.300
And I'm not trying to make it about the written word.
00:40:40.920
We still need to focus on, on how we get good people and not, you know, there's still stuff
00:40:45.960
that needs to be built and stuff that needs to be thought about and, you know, direction
00:40:51.780
If you want to, you know, if you, if you want to speed it along and if you want it to work.
00:40:57.760
To be clear, I'm not saying like, well, we're just going to abandon rationality and any kind
00:41:04.420
That's, that's not the point that I'm, I'm trying to make.
00:41:06.680
It's simply that we can't engineer these things wholly of ourselves.
00:41:11.860
There's more to political organization than simply what we put on a, on a piece of paper,
00:41:17.380
which doesn't mean we never put anything on a piece of paper.
00:41:19.800
And like you said, this is something that is forming now.
00:41:25.380
We are, again, that's why I said there is an epochal shift happening.
00:41:29.460
We are going to see, I think, a revolution in the way that people do organize themselves.
00:41:33.040
Though I think ultimately some people, again, this, this is one of my criticisms of Molebug.
00:41:39.000
Like he tends to think that we're just going to see like blue and red America sort themselves
00:41:43.960
And then like a king can just kind of solve all of these problems because he's neither
00:41:48.740
He's the true purple Caesar that just kind of resolves these issues by allowing these people
00:41:55.340
I don't think that the American empire is long for this world ultimately.
00:41:59.700
And I do think that, you know, that there is a physical relocation aspect that is critical.
00:42:08.520
It's cute that people are like LARPing in Russia about, you know, Appalachian music or
00:42:12.940
whatever, but they, that's not the same as actually living in a community of these things.
00:42:19.280
I think actually LARPing is a critical step towards the realization of in-person and in
00:42:24.340
real life events, but that it's not enough to stay there.
00:42:29.160
It has to take real, you know, substantive steps like you guys are doing.
00:42:33.780
And so I think that it's important for online movements to cross that threshold.
00:42:39.660
As somebody who spent a lot of time, you know, in online politics and things, I'm certainly
00:42:44.620
not saying, ah, all of this is useless and there's no value to it.
00:42:50.980
But I'm just saying the people who think that this can be perpetually online or this
00:42:54.520
can be perpetually spread across things and just organized digitally.
00:42:57.660
I think that's a failure to understand a critical part of human nature.
00:43:01.060
At some point, you do actually have to become physical communities.
00:43:04.380
You do have to organize in the manner that you're talking about.
00:43:08.880
And I guess I just want to see more of this, more of the positive institution building.
00:43:15.820
And even if you believe it's more about elites flipping, like, even elites can be populist.
00:43:25.940
Like, if they see that there's this, you know, club or group or whatever, this pool of millions
00:43:31.900
of people that are hungry for, you know, a certain thing, a certain vibe, whatever,
00:43:37.240
like, this is, this is, these are things that they respond to.
00:43:41.440
And, you know, so, so for there to be, you know, like the, the people that are, are on
00:43:47.420
the side of things, I do think there needs to be more, more of an explicit kind of thing
00:43:53.660
that they can, that they can be a, you know, that they can be a part of.
00:43:58.360
I mean, like Yarvin could have his, you know, his, his club of thinkers and they could, they
00:44:05.400
could have their own CEO, you know, right now they could have their own King right now
00:44:10.400
and he could be trying to get, you know, bigger.
00:44:12.580
And maybe I don't understand how it works, right?
00:44:14.400
It's just like, there has to be some steps that happen before, like, even if you think
00:44:19.240
that one day this thing happens, like, okay, what are the proto steps, like work backwards
00:44:23.340
And are those, are those proto steps being taken, you know, right now?
00:44:30.140
Cause it seems like maybe there are some steps that could be, could be getting taken right
00:44:35.540
One thing I will remind people about, and I, I'm not, I don't have any deep insider knowledge
00:44:39.700
on Curtis here for my statement, but I'm, I just think it's worth reminding people when
00:44:45.680
you're talking about regime change, there is a wisdom in a Straussian reading.
00:44:50.940
Uh, I'm not a Straussian, but there, there is a, uh, you know, there are only certain
00:44:55.100
things that get said, said out loud and not everything gets said out loud and assuming
00:44:59.760
that something isn't understood or isn't being said somewhere else because it's not being
00:45:06.840
Um, sometimes as a failure of people when they're asking these questions, like, well, why don't
00:45:11.680
you just lead me on this 15 step plan of things?
00:45:13.920
The last five steps you have to say without going to jail is, is a weird thing that people
00:45:21.240
And I'm, I'm not trying to, uh, encourage anything, uh, you know, legal or whatever.
00:45:27.040
I, and I even, I don't know, I get, maybe there, maybe I'm being too autistic about this.
00:45:31.980
Maybe there are things that are happening that I'm not appreciating, but it does.
00:45:35.340
It feels to me that the, the, the, the proper, uh, that, like I found a lot of these ideas
00:45:41.260
sympathetic and then, but then it's like, well, you're not doing anything.
00:45:46.120
What's the thing I, you know, what's the thing, how can I even nudge this along?
00:45:49.300
It's just, it's just, uh, you know, 10 years of, of posting on forums, uh, you know, and,
00:46:01.660
Like, it's not, I'm not saying that it's wrong.
00:46:03.220
I just think, I just think the people who, who think this way, like they need to be
00:46:15.240
You need to be building up all of the other things that go along with it, the positive
00:46:19.760
vision, the culture, the whatever, but this stuff can happen and it can happen with intentionality.
00:46:25.400
Like, I know that, I know that we got here organically, but organic, organic means are just like
00:46:31.200
the intent, the cumulative intentionality of a lot of people on it.
00:46:34.140
And so, you know, this idea that like things are always going to be this way, you know,
00:46:40.780
no, we can change them and people can, and, and, and change starts with, you know, someone
00:46:45.280
creating a small seed and that seed growing over time.
00:46:48.460
And I think obviously a lot of that has happened.
00:46:50.140
We're not that those seeds have grown, but, but I think like the, the stage where a lot of
00:46:54.440
these ideas are at, they need, they do need a little bit more of, of the sort of,
00:46:59.060
of the positive vision of the positive institution of the, you know, we joined this, we put our
00:47:05.660
Once this gets big enough, you know, then we win, or we had, you know, we had this, you
00:47:15.600
So one more thing before we go that I wanted to ask you about, you know, you had mentioned
00:47:19.620
in your response to one of my posts that, you know, you're an atheist and this is something
00:47:24.880
that you, you know, you recognize the utility of religion, you're not against it, you know,
00:47:29.220
you, you respect a lot of the aspects of it, but, you know, ultimately it's, it's just
00:47:33.980
not something that you believe in or that you've invested in.
00:47:36.760
I wonder what you think about the necessity of it as a social binding agent.
00:47:41.760
However, I, I look at someone like, um, uh, uh, I don't, I don't know why I always
00:47:47.620
forget, uh, Clash of Civil, Samuel Huntington, uh, Clash of Civilizations.
00:47:51.560
And he talks about how, you know, religion is really the civilizational block thing, right?
00:47:56.340
It's the thing that, that allows, uh, binding beyond nations.
00:48:01.220
I don't think that you can ever have, uh, you know, morally neutral institutions inside
00:48:07.500
And so there's always going to be some worldview.
00:48:12.420
People might call it explicitly religious or not, but if you don't have one, then you become
00:48:17.680
particularly vulnerable to something like progressivism that kind of smuggles itself in.
00:48:22.540
Even if yourself, uh, you, you yourself are not a believer, do you, what do you think about
00:48:28.000
the, the ultimate necessity of something like that for if, if not, uh, the metaphysical truth,
00:48:36.400
So I think it's clear that we, uh, as humans have this sort of, well, at least most of us
00:48:44.220
have this sort of inclination to, uh, religiosity.
00:48:47.680
And this includes, um, you know, there'd be these, the idea of there being, um, sort of
00:48:53.400
things larger than us, the sense of transcendence.
00:48:55.860
It includes, um, considering certain things, uh, you know, um, uh, blasphemous or a type of
00:49:03.500
And so it turns out if you strip people of their religion, um, a lot of people will just
00:49:13.740
And so, yeah, this is why you see so much, you know, the fact that, um, you know, if
00:49:18.600
someone, if someone says transgender people are sacred, you know, the odds that this person
00:49:27.340
And so, uh, the, so I think it is unhealthy for, uh, a lot of people to, to not have it.
00:49:35.260
And I don't mean to say that I'm somehow like different or, uh, I'm certainly not making
00:49:40.600
the claim that I'm better, but like, I don't know.
00:49:42.780
It's just, it's always been really hard for me to ultimately believe it.
00:49:48.120
But then I also, I, when my lack of belief, I don't feel had the same spillover effects.
00:49:54.460
Although maybe I attached it, my desire for transcendence to something like, uh, you know,
00:49:59.460
to something like libertarianism, because I do think it's healthy to have, to be striving
00:50:06.880
I think that's very healthy and to have a set of morals and principles that you're trying
00:50:11.440
to adhere to that's larger than you, uh, and this kind of thing.
00:50:14.540
So perhaps that is where I took my faculties and I, uh, applied it.
00:50:18.460
And I fortunately didn't, they didn't latch onto transgenderism or something else.
00:50:22.240
Uh, but I think it's clear that we have these structures.
00:50:24.500
And so this idea that you're going to be, um, you know, purely, uh, logical or that you
00:50:31.680
can take these things away from people without consequences.
00:50:35.120
Uh, you know, I think that that's clearly wrong.
00:50:37.240
I think the other thing, the other way, another way I think about it as well, and this is something
00:50:41.740
that I think is, will be very interesting because we're entering sort of new eras.
00:50:46.020
Part of what I think religion provides in addition to a positive set of beliefs is it also provides
00:50:59.200
And so it's actually almost like a mimetic antibody to, to, to dangerous meats to dangerous
00:51:07.760
And we're now seeing part of what's hurting humanity more than anything else is these
00:51:14.920
new things is exposure to new things, whether that's junk food, pornography, social media,
00:51:21.300
And so we have this vulnerability almost, it's like a vulnerability.
00:51:27.700
And so how do we, how do we stop, uh, how do we stop humans from falling prey, you know,
00:51:37.400
Um, and obviously one attempt is just to, to regulate them out of existence.
00:51:40.820
Uh, but I actually think mimetic, you know, sort of mimetic antibody type solutions are, are
00:51:48.520
Uh, cause it's a stronger answer as well, you know?
00:51:51.300
So how do we make, how do we create a culture and a set of, you know, views and values where
00:51:56.060
these things are, are tabooed, you know, um, essentially in a, in a religious way.
00:52:02.380
Um, you know, I think having religious type structures and so maybe that's Christianity.
00:52:07.580
And this is, I don't, and I, I, I don't mean to offend people when I talk about religion
00:52:13.420
Cause I understand that it's a profound, you know, belief for people.
00:52:17.300
And so they say, oh, your religion, you know, I don't mean to be overly reductive and be
00:52:20.920
like, oh, your religion is just a meme complex that she, you know, like, I, but I do think
00:52:27.060
there's something, something to this way of, of, of looking at it.
00:52:31.440
And so, especially for the sort of scientific types who are like, oh, religion is just fault.
00:52:37.320
Like I'm, I'm always very disappointed in Dawkins who I like mostly he'll like, oh, well, it's
00:52:42.980
just, it's just, um, it's just condescending to say that people need God.
00:52:48.840
And it's like, dude, you would not dismiss other potentially true explanations as being
00:52:55.520
And when you hear Dawkins talk about God, he's like, oh, it's just condescending to
00:53:02.300
While, while lamenting the loss of, you know, churches and choirs and Christmas and his own,
00:53:08.860
You know, that Dawkins got pwned, perhaps the best essay that has ever been.
00:53:13.780
Cause he, you know, he right, rightfully cause he right, like, cause I, I'm this way too.
00:53:17.860
Cause I, I love Dawkins in my twenties and still think the, um, his views on evolution and
00:53:23.720
gene centered evolution are like really good and important ideas.
00:53:26.940
And, um, uh, but yeah, he, he like hates Muslims.
00:53:31.320
He doesn't like Islamic or Muslim culture at all.
00:53:34.680
And, but at the same time, can't recognize that, that, you know, you create, like when
00:53:40.440
you, when you say, you know, that the atheism is sort of this inherently multiple, you're
00:53:44.320
inviting all of this stuff in like, yes, you created, you created this vacuum.
00:53:48.420
You, you weakened the, the thing that was the strongest against this.
00:53:52.680
Um, and it's, yeah, I, I, you know, I kind of actually get the sense that he is seeing
00:53:57.580
It's gotta be a tough thing, uh, to, to even see, but I, I kind of get the sense that he
00:54:05.860
I agree with you that for a very long time we were selecting for production and now we're,
00:54:11.900
the selection pressure seems to be for avoiding mimetic contagion that, that seems to be the
00:54:17.160
next bottleneck here is really, um, the people who can, who can go ahead and deny themselves,
00:54:23.900
uh, kind of these things, these end products of the society of modernity, uh, are really
00:54:29.560
going to be the ones that make it through, uh, to the other side of this.
00:54:33.040
And, you know, while I, I do think it is too reductive to simply see, uh, religion as a
00:54:38.880
memeplex, I do think it's valuable in some ways because I do know, at least from my own
00:54:43.100
work, people watching my own channel go through the NRX window, you know, that every, the,
00:54:48.000
the, the inside of NRX is, you know, a lot of people miss this about it, but it's, it's
00:54:52.100
the most, the thing that really, and it's funny because I was a religious person, but
00:54:56.200
it never really, because I had been brought up in this kind of normie conservative tradition,
00:55:01.420
The key insight for me is ultimately that every, in NRX is that everything is religion,
00:55:06.920
that actually, uh, that everything is religion, even, even the evolutionary, uh, selective aspects
00:55:14.940
Uh, and so for a lot of people, actually, this has moved them closer to religion, looking
00:55:19.880
it in this way, really like, oh no, actually there is a scientifically quantifiable understanding
00:55:25.120
of why this is necessary to my life and to culture and to society has ironically moved
00:55:31.140
them then closer to the more mystical and metaphysical aspects.
00:55:34.620
Then once, once you recognize, oh, this is something I should participate in if only for
00:55:38.580
its utility, then they realize, oh, there's more than the utility.
00:55:42.000
There's, there's more here, you know, once they, they start getting into it.
00:55:44.560
So while I, I understand, you know, I understand people's aversion to discussing in that manner,
00:55:49.100
I think for some people, it's actually has been as helpful moving them towards the real
00:55:59.660
And it's, it's, it's, it's certainly made me, uh, you know, uh, more, more curious, uh,
00:56:05.360
about it because these aspects of our nature are, are clearly, um, are clearly there and denying,
00:56:11.320
I think it's always, uh, at least my belief is always, you have, you have to start by
00:56:16.380
acknowledging these truths about ourselves, uh, because I think that, that we're actually
00:56:21.640
at our most dangerous when we don't, you know, when we deny our own nature, uh, that's
00:56:25.720
when we get these, these kinds of utopian and terrible ideas.
00:56:28.860
And so we, if we start by being honest about ourselves, um, you know, hopefully we can, you
00:56:36.640
There to, to, to horribly, uh, paraphrase a CS Lewis quote, it's something like, uh,
00:56:41.860
you know, if you find yourself constantly, uh, alien in this world, perhaps it means there
00:56:46.180
is another, uh, but, uh, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up guys.
00:56:54.300
I'm up in Washington DC right now, speaking at NatCon four.
00:56:58.260
Uh, so there won't be any questions from the audience, uh, but I'll be back on Friday.
00:57:02.340
So we'll be back to kind of normal shows by then Jeremy, uh, is there anywhere that you'd
00:57:11.320
You can just follow me on Twitter at my full name, Jeremy Kaufman.
00:57:18.040
So if you enjoyed what I had to say here, I, I post a long takes on that quite a bit.
00:57:24.480
And of course, if it's your first time on this channel, go ahead and subscribe on YouTube,
00:57:30.700
Well, just because you're subscribed doesn't mean YouTube knows you actually want to see
00:57:36.560
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00:57:40.100
Uh, but, uh, uh, if you of course would like to get these broadcasts as podcasts, make sure
00:57:44.620
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00:57:48.400
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00:57:52.300
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