The Auron MacIntyre Show - Breaking Down Douglas Murray VS Dave Smith

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.580 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.200 I am Oren McIntyre.

00:00:36.340 So over the last week, the internet has kind of exploded

00:00:40.680 when it comes to an episode of the Joe Rogan experience.

00:00:45.240 Rogan is known for bringing on a wide swath of different people.

00:00:49.980 And of course, one person he's had on on a regular basis is Dave Smith,

00:00:54.220 a comedian whose show I have been on and has been on this show,

00:00:57.620 just to be fair and make all that clear.

00:01:00.680 He was discussing with another, with an interlocutor, Douglas Murray,

00:01:07.440 who is someone who is very pro the Israel side of the Israel-Palestine war.

00:01:14.720 Dave Smith is famously very against Israel's action in Gaza.

00:01:19.060 And Douglas Murray is someone who has just written a book about this.

00:01:23.720 In fact, I think even President Trump recently tweeted out about Douglas Murray's book,

00:01:28.380 focused very much on the role that Israel is playing

00:01:32.540 and what he sees as a struggle of the Western world with Islam.

00:01:36.480 Ultimately, what is interesting about this debate, I think,

00:01:39.860 is not so much the differences between the two positions when it comes to Israel or Palestine.

00:01:46.200 As always, I am rather uninterested in foreign wars.

00:01:50.180 I would like to be uninvolved in them whenever possible.

00:01:53.760 The only thing that I usually care about is if the money or resources or troops from my country

00:02:00.300 are being funneled into the conflict in a different country,

00:02:03.600 which is something that does happen, for instance, when it comes to the Ukraine war,

00:02:07.260 which they also touched on.

00:02:08.920 So I have a little more feeling about that.

00:02:11.440 But ultimately, what I really am interested about is that these two really came to heads

00:02:17.060 over the issue of expertise.

00:02:18.840 Something Douglas Murray emphasized over and over again was how Dave Smith was just unqualified

00:02:24.920 and other people that he brought up regularly were very unqualified to opine on the war,

00:02:31.460 which is particularly interesting, given Murray's background,

00:02:34.620 which has very little to do with fighting wars or foreign policy or anything like that.

00:02:40.000 And so that's kind of what I wanted to look at today.

00:02:41.960 You can listen to the whole broadcast.

00:02:43.900 It's a three-hour podcast, as Joe Redgan often runs.

00:02:48.120 And there are some interesting exchanges throughout.

00:02:50.900 But I singled out a clip here that I think will really help us to understand the tenor of this conversation.

00:02:56.820 But before we get to that, guys, let's hear from today's sponsor.

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00:04:03.080 All right, so like I said, this is just a clip from the overall show.

00:04:08.480 You should go back and watch the whole thing if you would like to get a better idea about the context

00:04:12.820 of everything surrounding this, though this clip is very early on in the debate,

00:04:16.960 and I felt it really set the tone of the debate.

00:04:20.160 Again, the intricacies of the Israel-Palestine conflict are neither my specialty nor my interest.

00:04:26.980 I really don't care that much.

00:04:30.200 Ultimately, I think that, you know, I don't like terrorism,

00:04:35.280 but ultimately people have to be measured in their response.

00:04:39.300 Obviously, that is the huge blow-up between these two sides, ultimately, I think,

00:04:45.060 that most people are focusing on, but that is not my focus.

00:04:49.020 What I thought was interesting, again, was this back and forth between

00:04:52.100 Murray and Smith over what qualifies as an expert

00:04:56.160 and why we should rely on certain sources and not others,

00:05:00.060 and who has the right to speak.

00:05:02.400 And so I want to play that clip and just kind of break it down as we go.

00:05:06.440 So let me bring this up real quick, and we'll hear what they have to say,

00:05:10.560 and I'll just stop as we get to important parts.

00:05:13.480 I think that one of the bigger, kind of the bigger picture dynamics to all of this

00:05:18.680 is that we have, at least since 9-11, been in a state of perpetual war,

00:05:26.040 and all of these wars have been disasters.

00:05:30.240 They have been so many lies involved in selling all of them.

00:05:33.900 I mean, the whole Iraq war, the whole war in Afghanistan,

00:05:37.980 just lying the whole way through.

00:05:39.920 I mean, I remember literally having conversations with Green Berets

00:05:42.900 in the middle of the war in Afghanistan, and they're like,

00:05:45.700 George W. Bush is telling you that the army we're building up there

00:05:48.900 is really successful.

00:05:50.080 This thing's going to fall in a week without us.

00:05:52.500 So Dave Smith has a pretty standard libertarian opposition to war.

00:06:00.300 I think that, and I'll say this, I give the libertarians a lot of guff, obviously.

00:06:06.360 I'm pretty famous for dunking on libertarians.

00:06:10.240 However, obviously, in this scenario, the libertarians have been more right than wrong.

00:06:16.360 Their understanding that the perpetual need to stay at war

00:06:21.600 is a big part of the American government's ability to rake in money

00:06:25.640 and to kind of project power overseas and make demands on its citizens

00:06:32.700 is a part of what the regime does.

00:06:34.940 They were correct about this.

00:06:36.480 And so this is something that many people, like Tucker Carlson and others,

00:06:40.920 who were big boosters of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan, got wrong.

00:06:46.300 And they have admitted as much.

00:06:48.120 To be fair, I also was pro the war at the time, but I think I was like 18 or 19.

00:06:55.340 I didn't really have a firm grasp on the political dynamics involved.

00:07:00.820 You know, I didn't have a large platform.

00:07:03.000 It's not like I was out there leading anyone into war.

00:07:06.360 But ultimately, this is something that I misunderstood when I was young as well.

00:07:10.300 And so, you know, Dave Smith puts forward a position that I think has

00:07:14.540 stood the test of time over the last few decades.

00:07:17.640 Now, the thing I will say is that Dave Smith is probably too reflexively anti-war for me.

00:07:24.680 I am not anti-war in principle in a way that I think guys like Scott Horton

00:07:29.980 or Dave Smith would probably describe themselves.

00:07:33.500 I think war is part of human nature.

00:07:36.720 It is a reality of human existence.

00:07:38.840 And when nations reach an impasse in their ability to interact with each other and they

00:07:45.440 both demand something that the other will not yield, eventually war does occur.

00:07:51.840 And there can be just wars.

00:07:53.620 There can be wars fought for the right reasons.

00:07:55.780 Every war is its own tragedy in that many things that should not happen happen and things

00:08:02.160 get out of hand very quickly, which is why so many people correctly see war as something

00:08:07.280 that should be your last, you know, the last thing that you move towards, right?

00:08:12.820 But ultimately, we recognize that war is a part of human life.

00:08:18.340 And so I would not say I am anti-war.

00:08:20.480 There can be just wars.

00:08:21.760 There are wars that are ultimately ones that you should involve yourself in.

00:08:26.700 But it's very clear that the United States has not necessarily been involved in those actions.

00:08:33.460 Again, not that there wasn't a correct response to the terrorist attacks of 9-11, not that there

00:08:39.360 weren't certain groups that needed to be targeted.

00:08:41.680 But obviously, we didn't need to involve ourselves in two multi-decade regime change wars over this

00:08:49.400 fact, right?

00:08:50.100 And the ways that the wars were prosecuted is its own issue.

00:08:55.140 We weren't really fighting to win.

00:08:56.740 We were fighting to kind of perpetuate.

00:08:59.480 We didn't take the steps necessary to secure victory in many cases because they would have

00:09:03.580 been unpalatable to the American public.

00:09:06.740 And so there is a scenario in which being too hesitant to enter into a war, being half into

00:09:15.080 a war is its own problem, right?

00:09:16.600 You either want to be all in or all out.

00:09:18.600 You either need to be willing to do what it takes to succeed and bring victory as soon as

00:09:23.780 possible, because ultimately, that is actually what is best for everyone, or to not involve

00:09:28.960 yourself at all, right?

00:09:30.780 Like, it's one or the other.

00:09:32.640 You do not want to limp into a war.

00:09:34.720 That's the worst place to be.

00:09:36.080 And that is ultimately kind of what we did in both of their scenarios.

00:09:39.660 So I'll say at the beginning that while Smith obviously is correct about the wars in Iraq

00:09:45.960 and Afghanistan and kind of the plans that we had there, and again, I want to make it

00:09:51.140 clear that this is not about the people fighting those wars.

00:09:53.900 They have little to no say when it comes to the way in which the war is actually being

00:10:00.040 executed, the way in which strategy is being deployed, what political objectives are on

00:10:05.660 the table, what's being presented by the government itself.

00:10:08.680 I think I have the highest respect for military members.

00:10:11.820 I grew up on military bases, large amounts of my family and friends are service members

00:10:15.420 or vets.

00:10:17.200 And so this is not to say anything about the job that they did, but simply the facts are

00:10:22.620 that our leaders in the United States have not been telling the truth when it comes to

00:10:28.100 war and have not had good plans, good outcomes for many decades.

00:10:32.340 The United States is ostensibly the greatest military power that has ever graced the surface

00:10:38.840 of the earth.

00:10:39.900 And yet we find it impossible to win wars against goat herders in the mountains, not because

00:10:45.540 our troops aren't good enough to do it, not because we don't have the technology or the

00:10:50.760 discipline or any of these things.

00:10:52.540 It's literally that we're not interested in winning wars.

00:10:56.060 We deploy tactics that are not going to finish the job.

00:10:59.040 We get ourselves into political turmoil that makes it impossible for us to do the job.

00:11:03.720 We are setting ourselves up for failure and then finding ourselves in the middle of a

00:11:07.440 failure.

00:11:08.200 So Smith, while I, like I said, is reflexively probably too anti-war for me, his argument

00:11:14.400 here does have legs given our current situation.

00:11:17.580 And all through the Obama administration, it's just like lie after lie after lie with disastrous

00:11:21.720 wars.

00:11:22.340 And so this does create a fertile ground for people to say, I wonder if they were lying about

00:11:27.500 all these wars.

00:11:28.100 Again, I'm not really trying to argue with you about World War II.

00:11:30.680 I'd rather argue about these wars today.

00:11:32.120 I think the interesting question is whether you're busy watering it.

00:11:35.560 Well, should you not talk about mistakes that were made overall?

00:11:38.400 You should.

00:11:39.500 Absolutely.

00:11:39.780 Okay, you should.

00:11:40.500 Absolutely.

00:11:41.420 Right.

00:11:41.840 All four going back and looking at mistakes.

00:11:43.640 So what is your argument then?

00:11:45.380 It's a very weird thing to go back, zone in on a man, say this one thing is a mistake and

00:11:52.060 should characterize him, and you ignore everything else.

00:11:54.580 You're taking him out of context.

00:11:56.800 So to give a little bit of context here, they started the whole podcast by talking about

00:12:02.700 Daryl Cooper, who runs the Martyr Maid podcast.

00:12:05.640 Again, he has been on this podcast several times.

00:12:08.700 And Douglas really got angry at Daryl.

00:12:13.080 Like, he was very, very angry at Daryl about the way that he had presented facts, specifically

00:12:17.360 when it came to Churchill.

00:12:18.440 Well, and so, you know, what Dave Smith is laying out here is, look, if you are lying

00:12:25.520 about wars on a regular basis, if people see that they are being led into war on the basis

00:12:31.700 of a lie, and not just once, but multiple times in their lifetime, they're going to

00:12:36.040 go back and they're naturally going to start asking questions like, well, if my government

00:12:39.760 is willing to lie about this war, why wouldn't they lie about previous wars?

00:12:44.040 And the first lesson we should have here, the most important lesson you should take away

00:12:48.200 from this, is not the danger of asking about whether or not you were lied to about previous

00:12:53.740 wars.

00:12:54.340 The most dangerous thing is lying about the war itself.

00:12:59.060 It's lying about the war.

00:13:01.160 That's the problem.

00:13:02.960 This is the problem.

00:13:03.940 I feel, you know what this is?

00:13:05.460 This is the long, extended version of the Norm MacDonald conversation.

00:13:10.820 I think it's where he and Jerry Seinfeld are like sitting and they're talking about

00:13:14.600 talking about the Bill Cosby rape stuff.

00:13:18.080 And like, you know, people are like, oh, the worst part is the outrage or reaction.

00:13:21.140 And Norm MacDonald turns to him and is like, you know what?

00:13:23.160 I think the worst part was the right.

00:13:25.400 Right.

00:13:25.760 Like, that's the worst part.

00:13:27.280 And I feel like that's exactly what we're getting in this conversation is Douglas Murray's

00:13:31.000 like, you know, the worst thing you could do is go back and look at history and say,

00:13:35.540 what if I was lied to about about these events in history?

00:13:38.780 And like, no, the worst part is actually your government lying about the whole thing.

00:13:43.900 Like, that is actually the problem.

00:13:46.300 The fault lies not with the people asking the question.

00:13:49.260 The problem is with the people who shredded the credibility of the institution.

00:13:54.300 And this is going to be the crux of the debate here.

00:13:57.860 Douglas Murray would like the entire institutional apparatus to stay in place no matter how many

00:14:04.540 times it lies.

00:14:05.440 He doesn't like the lie.

00:14:06.760 He'll tell you that he doesn't like the lie.

00:14:09.460 But when it comes to consequences for the lie, he has a problem with that.

00:14:15.080 He doesn't want the institutions to suffer any consequences for their lies.

00:14:18.720 He'd prefer that they tell the truth.

00:14:20.480 But ultimately, his real problem is with people who would then say, well, if the institution

00:14:25.440 is lying and the institution is failing, maybe we need to question it.

00:14:29.600 And he's like, no, no, no, no, not that.

00:14:31.400 No.

00:14:31.620 And he gets very angry at the people who question the institution in a way he did not get angry

00:14:37.560 with people who lied about the war.

00:14:39.920 Now, I'm sure somewhere Douglas Murray has said, I don't like, you know, he says here in

00:14:43.420 the podcast, I don't like it when people lie about the war.

00:14:45.480 But he doesn't seem very passionate about it.

00:14:48.160 He doesn't seem to care a lot.

00:14:50.580 Actually, he seems to care way more about Daryl Cooper doing a podcast than he does about

00:14:57.000 literally having the governments that he is pledging allegiance to lie to him and get

00:15:05.360 people killed, like he seems way less offended by innocent people dying, by brave soldiers

00:15:12.820 dying because of a lie than he seems offended about people who would then say, well, if the

00:15:18.840 institution was wrong here, maybe it was wrong somewhere else.

00:15:22.780 Now, again, I am not a professional historian.

00:15:26.700 I have not done the level of research that either Daryl Cooper or other historians have done

00:15:32.100 on this topic, the ones that disagree with Daryl quite vehemently.

00:15:35.780 So I'm not going to wade in on to whether Churchill is like, you know, I'll just say this.

00:15:41.500 I don't think Churchill is the big villain of World War Two.

00:15:44.200 That said, obviously, the man made some very serious mistakes and probably exacerbated a

00:15:51.300 situation that didn't need to be exacerbated.

00:15:53.440 However, that said, Hitler's probably a much worse person, right?

00:15:57.960 Like that's a pretty easy sell.

00:15:59.240 But Douglas Murray is more offended by him, by Daryl Cooper looking back and saying, you

00:16:07.220 know, I don't think that this is the best read on history to just make Hitler this one

00:16:12.700 note thing.

00:16:13.440 Like, I think we should probably better understand the motivations of the Germans and the Third

00:16:18.220 Reich and everything before we just jump off a cliff every time we go into a war saying,

00:16:23.360 oh, well, this next guy's Hitler.

00:16:24.740 Because Daryl's point, which he's made repeatedly, and this one is correct and is just irrefutable.

00:16:29.920 Every single war we get into, it's all about Hitler.

00:16:34.280 It turns out Saddam Hussein is Hitler.

00:16:36.460 It turns out Vladimir Putin is Hitler.

00:16:38.900 It turns out Muammar Gaddafi is Hitler.

00:16:40.540 Everybody is Hitler all the time.

00:16:43.720 And so the belief that we have about World War Two impacts our current willingness to

00:16:47.940 enter into wars today.

00:16:49.400 Now, that doesn't mean that everything Daryl said about World War Two is correct.

00:16:53.040 Again, I don't even agree with the comment that he got in trouble with, you know, when it

00:16:57.200 comes to Tucker Carlson, the one that blew up everything.

00:16:59.920 But of course, people are going to question this if you keep lying to them.

00:17:03.780 And that's not their problem.

00:17:05.820 Like, the problem is with the people who lie.

00:17:08.140 The problem is with the people who degraded the institution.

00:17:11.620 If they had not done this, if they had not repeatedly shown themselves to be liars, then

00:17:18.260 you would not be running into the problem you are running into now.

00:17:21.140 It's the same thing with COVID.

00:17:22.700 I don't think every vaccine is fake or going to give you autism or something like that.

00:17:27.760 I'm not an anti-vax guy.

00:17:29.000 I never was.

00:17:31.000 But when you show me during COVID a vaccine that clearly does not work and clearly hurts

00:17:38.200 people and the head of the CDC looks me in the eye and says, this is safe and this will

00:17:44.780 protect you and this will keep you from getting this disease.

00:17:47.160 I know I've been lied to and that's going to make me question other vaccines.

00:17:53.800 Now, I might find that most of the vaccines are fine.

00:17:57.200 I think that's probably true.

00:17:59.680 However, it's going to make me ask questions I never asked before.

00:18:03.240 And it's your job as the head of the CDC to not lie to me so I don't go around questioning

00:18:09.080 all the other things you've said.

00:18:10.560 And it's your job as a regime that is asking people to go to war to not lie to them.

00:18:16.500 Because if you do, they're going to start questioning all the other things you've said.

00:18:20.520 It's a pretty simple premise.

00:18:22.020 I think it's pretty graspable by most people.

00:18:24.360 I think it's the experience most of us have had over the last few years.

00:18:28.000 And yet, Douglas Murray starts just getting very angry at people like Daryl Coopler and

00:18:33.600 Dave Smith for pointing this out.

00:18:35.040 When you're talking about Daryl, who's done, what was it, 30 plus hours?

00:18:39.420 So what?

00:18:40.160 30 plus hours of podcasting.

00:18:42.260 You do that in a week.

00:18:43.260 I'm so this is where, you know, for sure that Douglas Murray has no clue what he is talking

00:18:52.700 about, has absolutely zero clue what he is talking about, which is going to be great because

00:18:58.400 he is going to get very angry about people not knowing what they're talking about.

00:19:02.400 But it is very clear that Douglas Murray has no idea what he is talking about.

00:19:09.140 Daryl Cooper.

00:19:10.080 Yes, he has done 30 hours of this podcast.

00:19:12.980 Fear and Loathing in New Jerusalem, I believe, is the name of the podcast, right?

00:19:17.740 That string of episodes.

00:19:20.200 And you turn around and you hear Douglas Murray say, oh, no, anyone can do 30 hours of podcasts.

00:19:26.900 You do that in a week.

00:19:28.180 Now, yes, the Joe Rogan show, I mean, he does three hours every day.

00:19:33.780 He's stacking up large amounts of content.

00:19:35.720 It only takes him a couple of weeks to do the amount of raw volume of hours that Daryl

00:19:40.960 has done.

00:19:41.540 However, the level of research involved putting on that is very, very different, right?

00:19:48.420 30 hours of a masterfully produced film that you have released as a director into cinema

00:19:55.980 over your entire career is very different than 30 hours of reality television.

00:20:01.140 Yes, they are both 30 hours, technically, of content, video content.

00:20:07.900 But if you take 30 hours of Martin Scorsese and you stack it up against 30 hours of, I

00:20:13.120 don't even know, The Bachelor or something, whatever a contemporary reality show is, if you stack

00:20:18.540 them up, they are obviously very different things.

00:20:20.900 Daryl Cooper puts a lot of work and reading and production into those podcasts.

00:20:27.780 Again, you can say he's wrong, but flippantly saying, oh, well, whatever, you just do that

00:20:33.520 and you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

00:20:36.580 And that is, again, my big problem with Murray.

00:20:39.220 A lot of people are going to focus on the Israel-Palestine thing.

00:20:42.040 I am not.

00:20:42.760 Again, this is not my war.

00:20:44.620 This is not my concern.

00:20:45.900 I wish I never had to hear about this stupid war again.

00:20:49.120 However, this concerns me because I've heard arguments like Douglas is putting forward over

00:20:54.860 and over again from guys in this like IDW sphere.

00:20:58.640 This is Douglas Murray's Sam Harris moment where he reveals that the most important thing

00:21:05.900 to him is maintaining the system.

00:21:08.500 It has nothing to do with reforming the system.

00:21:10.760 It has nothing to do with fixing the problems.

00:21:13.500 Douglas has issues with what the system is doing, but at his core, he is a defender of

00:21:18.340 the system.

00:21:19.940 And so he is not even going to bother to listen to the guy he is correcting while he's going

00:21:26.500 to complain about everyone else having not done their research, not being an expert, not

00:21:31.200 know what they're talking about.

00:21:32.580 Yeah, it's a very, it's a very different, it's a very different.

00:21:34.680 He's not doing a podcast like talking to people.

00:21:37.060 Okay.

00:21:37.440 Nor is he doing scholarly work.

00:21:39.040 Nor is he working in the archives clearly.

00:21:40.940 Come on.

00:21:41.380 I mean, this is, he is not the historian of our era.

00:21:44.560 He's not complaining to me.

00:21:46.060 This is the thing, Joe.

00:21:47.260 So again, he gets very angry that Tucker Carlson called martyr maid, Daryl Cooper, a historian.

00:21:57.600 He gets very angry about that.

00:21:59.080 Now, I think it's pretty interesting as to when and when, when you are not a historian,

00:22:04.740 what is a historian?

00:22:06.120 Is it someone who studies history?

00:22:07.780 Is it someone who has entered into the profession of studying history?

00:22:11.560 Is it people who present historical content?

00:22:13.780 Is it someone who's done X amount of research?

00:22:15.820 Do you need the doctorate in, uh, to become a historian?

00:22:19.200 I know many people who hold a doctorate in history.

00:22:24.400 I mean, Tom Woods is somebody who I'm pretty sure holds a doctorate in history.

00:22:28.640 He is not officially a historian in the sense that he has never worked academically in the

00:22:33.880 field of history.

00:22:34.680 However, I am very sure that Tom Woods knows more history than most people who have the

00:22:40.680 title of historian, or at least in his chosen area of expertise.

00:22:45.340 That said, you don't need to have the title in order to have some idea of what history is,

00:22:52.880 but that's going to be Douglas's contention here.

00:22:55.020 This is like punching jelly.

00:22:57.000 No, but you, you don't, you don't consume, but you don't consume his work.

00:23:00.560 What I'm saying, because I don't need to consume endless versions of a revisionist history.

00:23:06.420 I understand.

00:23:07.820 So again, Douglas directly here admits he does not know what he's talking about.

00:23:13.440 No, I have not heard anything that, you know, that this podcaster has put out.

00:23:19.400 Yes, ultimately, I don't really know anything about this guy.

00:23:25.100 I don't, I've never listened to Daryl Cooper other than watching some snippets on Twitter.

00:23:29.860 However, I know exactly what he believes.

00:23:33.240 I know exactly the arguments he's putting forward.

00:23:35.700 I know they're all wrong.

00:23:37.120 I don't need to know anything.

00:23:38.680 I don't need to know anything about this guy in order to condemn him.

00:23:42.560 I don't need to know anything about this guy to call his credibility into question.

00:23:47.060 I don't need to see anything, listen to anything, consume any of his content, pay any attention.

00:23:52.580 I don't need to know the first thing about this guy to make all the judgments in the world about his character, about his credibility, about his sources, everything involved.

00:24:03.540 Right?

00:24:03.980 Because Douglas Murray is a professional historian.

00:24:07.460 Wait, no, that's not right.

00:24:09.680 Douglas Murray doesn't have a history degree.

00:24:12.520 Douglas Murray has never worked as an academic historian.

00:24:15.320 Douglas Murray does not hold a university position in a history department.

00:24:21.640 Douglas Murray has exactly the same level of professional qualification to opine on World War II history as Daryl Cooper does.

00:24:31.680 He has exactly the same level of academic credibility, which is to say zero.

00:24:38.800 Douglas Murray does not hold any of the credentials he is demanding from other people.

00:24:45.320 And yet he is very sure that without listening to them at all, even one time,

00:24:50.640 that he knows everything that they are going to say and that they are wrong.

00:24:55.960 It's insane.

00:24:57.240 It's absolutely insane.

00:24:58.920 It's not revisionist history.

00:25:00.840 If you listen to his work, it's not revisionist history.

00:25:03.260 He's basing it on historical work.

00:25:06.020 Yeah, I know, but, okay, so this is my point about jelly.

00:25:09.920 It's a shape-shifting thing.

00:25:11.500 Comedian or historian?

00:25:13.840 He's not a comedian.

00:25:15.480 Historian or podcast.

00:25:17.200 It would be historian or actual historian.

00:25:19.680 You say he doesn't claim to be a historian, but he's pumping out tens of hours of history.

00:25:23.660 But neither does it.

00:25:24.480 It's Dan Carlin.

00:25:25.140 When I found out my friend got a great deal on a designer dress from Winners,

00:25:29.720 I started wondering, is every fabulous item I see from Winners?

00:25:34.500 Like that woman over there with the Italian leather handbag.

00:25:37.440 Is that from Winners?

00:25:38.640 Ooh, or that beautiful silk skirt.

00:25:41.160 Did she pay full price?

00:25:42.400 Or those suede sneakers?

00:25:43.960 Or that luggage?

00:25:45.060 Or that trench?

00:25:46.200 Those jeans?

00:25:46.900 That jacket?

00:25:47.620 Those heels?

00:25:48.480 Is anyone paying full price for anything?

00:25:51.460 Stop wondering.

00:25:52.720 Start winning.

00:25:53.260 Winners find fabulous for less.

00:25:56.140 So, I am somebody who has a bachelor's degree from a party school in Florida.

00:26:03.340 I taught high school, and I worked for several years as a reporter.

00:26:11.100 I am in no way academically qualified to discuss political theory.

00:26:16.260 I'm just not.

00:26:17.820 That's just the case.

00:26:19.000 If you're looking at the raw credentials that I have,

00:26:23.260 I don't have any of those things, right?

00:26:25.980 However, from what I have heard from people who are in academia,

00:26:31.280 from the chair of a philosophy department, no less,

00:26:35.080 they have used my work.

00:26:37.500 They have assigned my work to their students.

00:26:41.400 This one particular philosophy chair told me,

00:26:44.180 hey, I think all the really interesting work in political theory

00:26:47.480 is being done with guys online like Nick Land and Curtis Yarvin.

00:26:53.260 So, who knows more about what should be going on here, right?

00:26:57.420 Like, who knows more?

00:26:58.640 The academics or Douglas Murray?

00:27:00.660 Now, this isn't to say that everybody who enters into popular entertainment

00:27:05.300 and shares an opinion has a high level of qualification

00:27:08.540 and should be treated as an expert.

00:27:10.980 Probably, you know, if you don't want to treat me as an expert, that's fine.

00:27:14.260 That's okay.

00:27:14.920 But it's very strange for Douglas to pretend that nobody who does any work

00:27:21.580 in any academic area who does not have an official degree from a school

00:27:25.100 he feels is sufficiently qualified, they just don't count.

00:27:30.020 That just doesn't work.

00:27:32.340 Because, again, Douglas Murray doesn't have that.

00:27:35.500 Douglas Murray, I believe, has a bachelor's degree in English.

00:27:38.600 So, what is he on about?

00:27:40.640 Like, I get it.

00:27:41.560 I also get frustrated sometimes, right?

00:27:43.820 There are comedians I have a problem with

00:27:47.040 because they keep doing the clown nose on, clown nose off thing, right?

00:27:51.060 They'll say, oh, I have a serious political opinion.

00:27:54.080 And then it's, oh, but I'm just joking.

00:27:55.720 I'm just joking.

00:27:56.740 I got to say, I don't see a lot of that from Dave Smith.

00:27:59.420 I've seen it from plenty of other comedians,

00:28:00.940 and I do have a problem with that particular maneuver.

00:28:03.880 Because then you're just saying, well, I'm just this guy, right?

00:28:06.160 You're making assertions, and you're saying, I'm just this guy.

00:28:08.180 If you make the assertion, back it up, right?

00:28:10.480 You don't need the credential, but you do need the backup.

00:28:13.360 You do need to actually show me your work, right?

00:28:16.240 I've got opinions on political theory.

00:28:18.060 I can show you the work.

00:28:20.000 You may disagree with the work, but I can show you the research.

00:28:22.920 I can draw you the line about how I got there.

00:28:25.820 I can give you the bibliography.

00:28:27.520 I can give you the intellectual genealogy I'm arguing.

00:28:31.220 Again, I might be wrong, but I can do that.

00:28:33.440 So I do have a problem with people who make an assertion

00:28:38.580 and just have zero idea of how to back that up

00:28:43.000 and then just run away and be like, oh, no, I'm a comedian or something.

00:28:47.040 It doesn't count.

00:28:48.180 But I'll be honest, again, I haven't really seen that from Dave Smith here.

00:28:54.620 Maybe he's done it at some point.

00:28:55.980 Probably has.

00:28:56.700 I don't know.

00:28:57.440 But that is not a feature of debates that Dave Smith involves himself in,

00:29:02.160 at least what I've seen.

00:29:03.920 He doesn't claim to be a historian either.

00:29:06.060 You see my point about the move.

00:29:07.980 It's like some weird jujitsu move where you say, hang on,

00:29:11.960 you know all about this as well.

00:29:13.480 You say, I'm not a historian,

00:29:16.700 but I'm going to spend my time talking about history.

00:29:19.860 I'm not a journalist,

00:29:21.100 but I'm going to spend my time talking about this thing.

00:29:23.280 I'm not an expert on this,

00:29:25.080 but I'm going to spend my time talking about this.

00:29:27.260 So check out this cool move that Douglas did.

00:29:30.580 This is a really cool move that Douglas did.

00:29:33.440 So he says, I'm not a historian,

00:29:35.780 but I'm going to, I'm not going to, I'm going to talk a history.

00:29:38.440 I'm not an expert,

00:29:39.120 but I'm going to talk about a topic as if I'm an expert.

00:29:41.320 I'm not a journalist,

00:29:42.360 but I'm going to talk about a variety of things.

00:29:45.240 Well, one of those things isn't like another, right?

00:29:47.980 Okay.

00:29:49.100 Being a journalist in Douglas's mind,

00:29:52.440 apparently gives you carte blanche to talk about a lot of things you have

00:29:55.780 no clue about because what you have a journalism degree.

00:30:02.100 Like that makes you a journalist.

00:30:04.380 Guess what?

00:30:04.680 I was a journalist.

00:30:05.460 I didn't have a journalism degree then either.

00:30:07.240 So there I have several years as a senior staff writer on a paper without having a journalism

00:30:15.960 degree.

00:30:16.780 And yet here we are, right?

00:30:19.020 But, but Douglas thinks that being a journalist allows you to just comment on anything as if

00:30:25.880 you are an expert.

00:30:26.560 And it's very clear because Douglas is going to comment on politics.

00:30:30.380 He's going to comment on war.

00:30:32.000 He's going to come comment on social situations.

00:30:34.900 He's going to comment on religion.

00:30:36.420 He's going to comment on a lot of things that he does not have a degree in that he in no

00:30:41.280 way is an expert in.

00:30:42.800 And yet he's going to assert his opinions as if they are factual and valid, despite him

00:30:50.200 lacking all of the qualifications he has listed here, except for that of journalist.

00:30:56.820 And that tells you a lot because the journalistic class.

00:31:02.000 In the United States, in the wider Western world, obviously Douglas is in the UK, but

00:31:06.500 the dynamic there is very much the same.

00:31:08.820 The journalistic class in the wider Western world sees itself as the priestly cast.

00:31:13.880 They are the ones who are in charge of the truth.

00:31:17.140 They are the ones that decide what opinions are valid or invalid.

00:31:21.120 And you see this over and over again from the IDW crowd, whether it's Sam Harris or Barry

00:31:27.280 Weiss or Douglas Murray, their problem is not that the system has failed.

00:31:32.100 The problem is not that the system is malfunctioning.

00:31:34.620 The problem is not that society is collapsing around them.

00:31:37.280 The problem is that their position in the expert class is being challenged.

00:31:42.040 And that is what Douglas really cares about here.

00:31:44.340 Because if journalists don't have the final say, if journalists who are no more qualified

00:31:51.180 to opine on history or war have the final say, they get to decide what everyone believes

00:31:57.480 on those topics.

00:31:58.400 But if podcasters who are as qualified as Douglas Murray to comment on both war and history,

00:32:08.000 which is to say, not at all, if they can shape a public opinion in the same way a journalist

00:32:13.360 can shape a public opinion, well, then guys like Douglas Murray and people like Barry Weiss,

00:32:19.980 they don't have the monopoly on truth anymore.

00:32:22.860 They're no longer the priestly cast.

00:32:25.460 They're no longer to decide which narratives are sacred and which narratives are not.

00:32:29.700 And this is what Douglas is really worried about.

00:32:32.120 What he's really worried about is that his class of activists is losing their power.

00:32:40.760 He's not interested in the truth.

00:32:42.980 He's not going to listen and try to discern whether or not someone like Daryl Cooper is

00:32:49.120 telling the truth and presenting something factual.

00:32:52.480 He's not interested in that.

00:32:53.980 He just wants him to shut up.

00:32:56.100 Just shut up and go away.

00:32:58.520 Telling the truth, telling people what the truth is.

00:33:00.760 That's our job.

00:33:02.400 That's the journalist class's job.

00:33:04.280 That's me and Barry Weiss.

00:33:05.480 We tell you what is true.

00:33:08.800 That's what Douglas is saying.

00:33:11.420 Because he has the exact level of expertise in this area as both Dave Smith and Daryl Cooper,

00:33:19.540 which is to say none.

00:33:21.460 But he knows the truth.

00:33:23.320 He knows the authoritative truth because he's a journalist.

00:33:26.920 And journalists, they get this magical free pass where they can comment on anything all the

00:33:32.840 time with an air of expertise and yet don't need to have expertise in any of it because

00:33:38.520 at the end of the day, he's just a journalist.

00:33:40.940 Turns out, Douglas's position is just as full of jelly as Dave Smith or is just as made of

00:33:48.880 jelly as Dave Smith.

00:33:49.800 Right?

00:33:49.980 It's just as pliable.

00:33:51.280 It morphs itself into any given situation just the same as Dave Smith.

00:33:55.960 It's a weird move, yeah?

00:33:57.540 No.

00:33:58.320 You don't think?

00:33:58.860 No, I'm a free American.

00:34:00.100 I can talk about what I like to.

00:34:01.400 You can talk about what you want.

00:34:02.180 So what is the point here?

00:34:03.060 I've noticed you can.

00:34:04.200 But what's the point?

00:34:05.900 The point is what are you pushing?

00:34:08.120 What are you watering?

00:34:09.720 Why?

00:34:10.020 Am I pushing?

00:34:10.820 Yes.

00:34:11.460 Liberty, free markets, peace, prosperity, not getting in another stupid catastrophic war,

00:34:16.680 which we're on the precipice of right now.

00:34:19.400 So you notice here for Douglas Murray, the problem is not actually that you have no expertise.

00:34:26.500 In fact, it turns out anyone can opine on these topics.

00:34:31.000 That's in direct contradiction to what he just spent the last few minutes saying, but

00:34:35.120 eh, you know.

00:34:37.960 But Douglas Murray says, no, no, of course you can comment on what you want to comment on.

00:34:42.060 The question is, what are you pushing?

00:34:43.760 So it's not about your expertise.

00:34:44.920 It's about your position.

00:34:47.360 It's about what do you believe?

00:34:50.180 What are you saying?

00:34:51.800 Are you expressing the no, no words?

00:34:53.700 Are you questioning narratives?

00:34:55.160 You're not allowed to question?

00:34:57.380 What's going on here, right?

00:34:58.920 That's what he's actually concerned about.

00:35:01.100 It has nothing to do with expertise.

00:35:03.060 You have the wrong opinion.

00:35:04.900 You believe the wrong thing.

00:35:06.500 I want to shut you up because you're saying the wrong thing.

00:35:09.580 That's what Murray is saying.

00:35:11.460 All this, I care deeply about expertise.

00:35:13.740 You're not an expert.

00:35:15.440 He doesn't care.

00:35:16.680 You could be an expert and he would tell you you are wrong if you are saying things he

00:35:21.660 disagrees with.

00:35:22.900 That's it.

00:35:24.040 That's what I'm pushing.

00:35:25.120 What are we on the press?

00:35:26.020 Well, I think you weren't you just talking about it the other day.

00:35:28.460 Everyone I hear on the inside says we're about to attack around.

00:35:32.080 I think you just said something about that the other day.

00:35:35.320 Am I wrong about that?

00:35:36.120 I thought I saw in one of your interviews that you did.

00:35:37.940 Possibly.

00:35:39.000 That doesn't mean we are on the verge of a war.

00:35:41.420 I mean, you keep referring to we being in wars.

00:35:43.780 There's a very big difference between a country having a military that's engaged and a country

00:35:49.980 being at war.

00:35:50.680 Well, this is an amazing moment.

00:35:53.440 Okay.

00:35:53.760 I want you to take this moment and I want you to drink in the importance of this moment.

00:35:58.120 What Douglas Murray just said is the most entitled neoconservative garbage you can imagine.

00:36:06.520 The most entitled neoconservative BS that you have ever heard spun.

00:36:13.880 Okay.

00:36:15.780 It's very different to say that a country is at war as opposed to its military is at war.

00:36:21.280 You say we as if you're a country.

00:36:22.880 No, it's your military that's at war.

00:36:28.000 I have a friend who spent many, many years in the sandbox and he tells the story all the

00:36:33.900 time about how he was speaking with a superior officer at some point and he talked about

00:36:41.540 how we were at war as a country and that officer turned to him and said, you know what?

00:36:46.000 Actually, the army is at war.

00:36:49.400 The rest of the country is at the mall and that's tough, but that's also true that in

00:36:56.620 the United States, unfortunately, because we have went from a large force that was

00:37:03.220 representative of the wider United States where most people had gone in or a larger number

00:37:10.320 of men had been a military service at one time or another.

00:37:13.320 Obviously, many cases due to the draft, people are going to have very different opinions on

00:37:17.360 that.

00:37:17.580 But because we went from what was a conscription based force when we had large wars to a

00:37:25.360 entirely voluntary, very small military, what we ended up, I mean, not small globally, but

00:37:31.300 as a percentage of the population, what we ended up doing was creating effectively a warrior

00:37:35.560 caste.

00:37:36.640 And that warrior caste has fought most of our wars since World War II or well, since Vietnam,

00:37:43.220 right?

00:37:43.480 Because we had the draft in Vietnam.

00:37:46.180 And that caste is hereditary, which means that usually it is the sons and daughters is the

00:37:54.220 children of soldiers that end up entering back into the military.

00:37:57.260 Not exclusively, obviously, new people join the military all the time, but we see a very

00:38:01.060 high rate of recruitment among people whose parents have been in the military, meaning

00:38:05.680 that when we go to war, really, it's not a representative large percentage of our male population that

00:38:13.940 goes to war.

00:38:14.880 It is really just that smaller amount of professional warrior caste people that go to war on America's

00:38:22.400 behalf.

00:38:22.760 Now, that might sound like an improvement, but it has some pretty big downsides.

00:38:27.480 One of the downsides is the average person doesn't recognize the cost of the war.

00:38:31.640 They no longer think of their country going to war.

00:38:35.520 They no longer think of the specific people who are putting their lives on the line because

00:38:40.660 they don't know those people anymore.

00:38:42.140 Those people are just abstract objects out somewhere.

00:38:45.180 They know a war is happening somewhere in the United States or the UK is involved, but they

00:38:50.000 don't feel the loss, right?

00:38:51.560 The idea of growing a victory garden so that the troops have what they need on the front

00:38:55.980 lines.

00:38:56.440 That just doesn't exist anymore.

00:38:58.340 The idea of sacrificing on behalf of the war effort, even if you're not personally involved,

00:39:03.780 just doesn't exist for our countries anymore.

00:39:08.220 Douglas thinks that's great.

00:39:10.400 Douglas loves that because Douglas is never going to go to war.

00:39:14.420 Douglas's children are never going to go to war.

00:39:16.440 It's just not going to happen.

00:39:17.720 So Douglas doesn't care.

00:39:20.520 Yeah, your military goes to war, but your country isn't going to war.

00:39:24.380 Come on.

00:39:25.680 Why would you say as if your country is going to war?

00:39:28.220 And this is the core of the neoconservative problem.

00:39:31.700 Douglas expects a professional military force completely detached from the American or British

00:39:36.980 population to go around setting up governments in the name of liberal democracy or whatever,

00:39:42.680 right?

00:39:43.160 But he's never going to sacrifice for it.

00:39:45.240 He's never going to put any effort into it.

00:39:46.780 He's never going to put his lifestyle at risk.

00:39:49.300 He's never going to put any of his, you know, progeny at risk.

00:39:53.100 I don't know if he has any.

00:39:54.560 He's not going to do that, right?

00:39:56.540 That is just not going to be the case because the country doesn't go to war.

00:40:00.960 The military goes where that's that's for the poors, right?

00:40:03.980 They go fight their wars on our, you know, on behalf of the government.

00:40:07.540 But, but, but, but, you know, the journalist class, they're going to sit around talking

00:40:11.060 about how they want a war, right?

00:40:14.760 Like Douglas is probably not going to refer to, well, you know, the, the, the military

00:40:19.280 won the war for us.

00:40:20.360 That's I'm guessing, you know, comb through his language, but I got a feeling we might be

00:40:24.340 able to catch Douglas saying we, when he means military there, excuse me.

00:40:28.480 But obviously the problem here is the incredible detachment we have from what is happening from

00:40:36.400 when we actually go into military situations.

00:40:39.360 And Douglas just displays this so beautifully here that ultimately he doesn't see it as the

00:40:45.920 country going to war.

00:40:46.900 It's some professional military, uh, force, like, like a bunch of mercenaries.

00:40:50.400 They go out, we pay them, they go fight, they do their thing on our behalf, and then they

00:40:54.060 come back, right?

00:40:55.060 But that's it.

00:40:55.660 He does not understand the connection between a country and its military.

00:40:59.580 He does not appreciate the link between a people and their military.

00:41:03.760 In fact, he specifically criticizes someone who would understand their country as going

00:41:08.620 to war rather than, you know, moving some kind of a discrete military unit around the

00:41:13.440 board as if it's a video game.

00:41:15.880 This country has not been at war for 25 years.

00:41:19.000 You have not been fighting for the American homeland for 25 years.

00:41:22.060 Yes, we haven't.

00:41:22.580 That's true.

00:41:22.900 We haven't had a war on our shores.

00:41:24.260 We've been picking on third world countries halfway around the world.

00:41:26.820 Well, you haven't been randomly picking on them.

00:41:29.380 I mean, Afghanistan, you went.

00:41:30.680 I didn't say it was random.

00:41:31.580 Yeah, right.

00:41:32.180 Okay.

00:41:32.680 It wasn't like you suddenly decided to bomb again, Myanmar or something.

00:41:37.280 You went for Afghanistan to find bin Laden and take revenge for 9-11 and stop an attack

00:41:43.660 like that happening again on the American homeland.

00:41:46.120 That is very different from a country being at war.

00:41:48.400 Yeah, but that's a total miscarriage.

00:41:50.740 So again, Douglas looks at this and says, okay, there are some legitimate engagements

00:41:56.340 you can involve in.

00:41:57.240 And to be fair, I think he's relatively right about some of this, right?

00:42:01.360 He's right that there had to be a response to 9-11.

00:42:04.740 That you did need to take action to make sure that there were no terrorist attacks in the

00:42:12.180 United States after that major attack.

00:42:14.380 There was some level of reciprocal response necessary in order to stop what was going on.

00:42:20.280 But you'll notice what he doesn't point out is that both of those turned into multi-decade

00:42:25.160 nation-building projects, right?

00:42:27.380 And this is always the neocon shuffle, right?

00:42:30.940 And by the way, when I use the word neocon here, Douglas wrote a book saying we need neoconservatism.

00:42:36.700 So this is not a slur, this is not me fabricating a term and applying it to someone to whom it

00:42:43.000 does not apply.

00:42:44.040 Douglas literally calls himself a neoconservative and wrote the book on why we need neoconservatism.

00:42:50.300 So I'm not just like throwing this language around in order to smear or insult this guy,

00:42:56.400 right?

00:42:57.720 This is the problem that we have over and over again with the neocon shuffle.

00:43:01.760 Yes, there is a proportionate and reasonable response to 9-11.

00:43:07.060 That response is not believing that you're going to turn Afghanistan into the 51st state

00:43:12.700 of the United States because secretly George Washington and Alexander Hamilton and Thomas

00:43:17.220 Jefferson are just hanging out in caves somewhere.

00:43:19.320 And if you just drop enough bombs on them, eventually they'll emerge from the cave and

00:43:23.220 they'll write a constitution and boom, liberal democracy will bloom across Afghanistan.

00:43:27.500 And yet that is exactly the approach that we took for decades.

00:43:30.580 So yes, there is a legitimate response.

00:43:33.220 And I would say that in Douglas Murray's defense here, Dave Smith probably doesn't believe there

00:43:37.820 is a legitimate response.

00:43:39.220 I think that that's probably something that Dave Smith struggles with.

00:43:42.380 He is so anti-war, he doesn't even know when a proportionate just response would be achieved,

00:43:48.680 right?

00:43:49.600 But Douglas Murray is going to just kind of sidestep the fact that these responses turned into massive

00:43:54.740 multi-decade boondoggles.

00:43:57.320 Characterization of the war in Afghanistan.

00:43:58.700 It's one thing to say that might be an accurate characterization of the special operations

00:44:02.680 mission in late 2001, but then we thought a 20-year regime change war against the Taliban.

00:44:08.380 Because you got dragged into the quicksand of war.

00:44:11.680 Oh, okay, fine.

00:44:12.940 But I thought it wasn't a war.

00:44:14.440 Like, I don't get...

00:44:15.460 Again, Douglas just kind of hand waves this away.

00:44:17.300 Well, you got drug into the quicksand of war.

00:44:19.380 You do not get drug into the quicksand of a 20-year war.

00:44:24.380 That's not how that works.

00:44:26.080 You do not get involved in a military conflict and nation-building for 20 years because you

00:44:31.600 accidentally got drug into it.

00:44:33.800 You didn't just, like, stumble in after a drunken night and end up in a war.

00:44:38.260 That's not how this works, okay?

00:44:40.300 But Douglas Murray just portrays it as if it's a mild, mild consequence of having to go in and,

00:44:45.720 you know, stop the 9-11 attacks.

00:44:47.460 No, no, it's not.

00:44:49.160 It's a giant systemic failure from our expert and leadership class, which you are specifically

00:44:54.960 defending in this moment.

00:44:56.640 No, I said it was a war.

00:44:58.100 It's your use of we as if you're personally, like, suffering this war.

00:45:02.580 Yeah, you're a taxpayer.

00:45:03.320 When I say we...

00:45:04.000 We're taxpayers, so we pay for it.

00:45:05.680 Okay, fine.

00:45:06.280 Douglas, would you go...

00:45:06.980 If I went back and corrected you on every time you've used the term we to refer to your

00:45:10.640 government or something like that, like, if I were to say, oh, we just imposed tariffs

00:45:14.140 on China, would you point out that I didn't and it was the Trump administration?

00:45:17.500 You take it, obviously, very personally, and that's your right to do so, of course.

00:45:21.680 I'm just trying to make sure we're accurate here.

00:45:23.640 So, again, Douglas, throwing this little shade at him.

00:45:27.160 Oh, you're taking this personally.

00:45:28.160 Douglas Murray has literally, like, dedicated his life to promoting foreign wars.

00:45:34.160 Like, this is a man who's currently pushing involvement of all Western countries in, obviously,

00:45:41.600 the Israel-Palestine-Gaza conflict, and I believe also in the Ukrainian-Russian war, okay?

00:45:49.180 So, the idea that, like, that Dave Smith is taking this very personally, but Douglas Murray

00:45:54.500 is just this cool, objective cucumber, is pretty comical.

00:45:58.820 Also, Douglas, again, does this thing where he pretends that countries and their militaries

00:46:05.300 are very different things and that you, as a citizen of a country, should not care what

00:46:09.880 your military is doing, that that should not be something that you are emotionally involved

00:46:14.400 in.

00:46:15.060 Again, this is just insane.

00:46:18.120 This is absolutely insane.

00:46:20.100 This is the most neocon garbage I have ever heard.

00:46:22.720 This ideology has to die.

00:46:25.360 The people pushing this ideology have to be discredited.

00:46:28.440 We cannot let people running around and pretending this is reality run our countries anymore.

00:46:34.600 This is absolutely insane.

00:46:36.380 If you leave people like Douglas Murray in the elite, they will get your sons and daughters

00:46:42.140 murdered.

00:46:43.600 That's it.

00:46:44.800 Like, these people will drive you into pointless wars because they do not even see your military

00:46:49.700 as actually part of your country.

00:46:51.580 They do not even see the people of your country as having any input as to how the military is

00:46:57.020 used.

00:46:58.420 Dave Smith doesn't get to decide how the military is used.

00:47:01.160 He doesn't get to have an opinion on how the military is used.

00:47:03.580 He doesn't get to have an opinion on whether the war should be fought or not because he's

00:47:07.340 not personally there, which is funny because neither is Douglas Murray, but whatever.

00:47:12.140 Right.

00:47:12.480 I guess that only applies to Dave Smith.

00:47:15.800 What do you think I'm taking personally?

00:47:18.200 Just that.

00:47:18.960 The American wars.

00:47:20.680 Sure.

00:47:21.160 Yeah.

00:47:21.300 I think they've killed hundreds of thousands of people and cost my country eight trillion

00:47:26.100 dollars and degraded my country very much.

00:47:29.060 And there's a very good argument to make on that.

00:47:31.680 I'm still slightly bemused about this move from I'm an expert on this and I have views

00:47:38.720 to I'm a comedian.

00:47:40.580 I've never claimed to be an expert on anything.

00:47:43.240 This is the problem, Joe.

00:47:45.160 I mean, if somebody says you have to claim to be an expert on something to have an opinion

00:47:50.580 on something, you don't have to be.

00:47:52.000 You don't have to be.

00:47:52.980 So Douglas obviously believes that you do.

00:47:56.200 Right.

00:47:56.540 Like he stops talking to Dave Smith and he pivots to Joe Rogan in the hopes that that's going

00:48:02.980 to make him look objective.

00:48:04.320 That that maybe Joe Rogan's going to save him from this exchange.

00:48:10.500 But again, Douglas Murray is being exactly what he claims Dave Smith is right.

00:48:17.220 Every time Douglas Murray runs into a problem, he's just jelly.

00:48:21.040 All of a sudden, Douglas Murray, Douglas Murray demands expertise.

00:48:25.180 You must be a historian.

00:48:26.860 You must be a military expert.

00:48:28.740 You must personally be involved in wars in order to comment on them, recognize when there's

00:48:35.540 a problem, point out some kind of historical that you like, you have to have this expertise.

00:48:39.840 And then the minute someone's like, so you're just to clarify, you're saying that everyone

00:48:43.920 has to have this expertise.

00:48:45.080 Oh, no, no, no, no, of course not.

00:48:46.900 Of course, I would never say that.

00:48:48.440 Of course, I would never say that.

00:48:49.680 I'm just I'm just wondering why they're commenting on these things because they're events

00:48:53.660 happening now, Douglas, because when you have a war and you're demanding more people be involved

00:49:02.180 in it and more money go to it and more weapons and material and lives get spent on it, people

00:49:09.380 have a right to comment on what you are asking them to involve themselves in.

00:49:15.060 Douglas Murray does not have some kind of objective opinion on this.

00:49:19.340 It's not like, oh, well, I'm just bringing forward the facts.

00:49:22.300 No, Douglas has a specific partisan demand he is making on both the United States and

00:49:28.740 the UK.

00:49:29.160 And you know what?

00:49:29.920 That's fine.

00:49:31.480 He has the right to make that demand, but he does not have the expertise that he is demanding

00:49:37.540 of others who are also partisan.

00:49:40.300 Now, again, I think that a man whose country is literally being invaded as we speak, the United

00:49:47.900 Kingdom is in a position right now where it is run by a government that is hostile to its

00:49:53.600 own population.

00:49:54.820 People cannot protest.

00:49:56.640 People cannot speak out online.

00:49:58.640 People cannot pray outside in their heads in the United Kingdom.

00:50:03.460 A man was threatened on the street.

00:50:05.620 A retiree who was disabled was threatened on the street by a police officer with hate crime

00:50:10.760 charges for saying these people should speak English in the country where English was invented.

00:50:18.360 That's where you are right now.

00:50:20.200 But what is Douglas obsessed with?

00:50:23.340 A war in another country.

00:50:26.960 That's all he cares about.

00:50:29.040 Now, to Douglas's credit, he wrote a book on the strange death of Europe.

00:50:32.400 He's spoken about the problems of immigration.

00:50:34.760 I was at the speech at ARC when he did so, though I noticed he didn't mention anything

00:50:39.160 about deportation, so one wonders how committed he is to that problem.

00:50:43.660 But ultimately, yes, Douglas has spoken out about that problem in a way that many people

00:50:49.400 in his country will not, to his credit.

00:50:52.080 But if my country is being invaded, if my country is becoming tyrannical, if free speech is ending

00:50:58.280 in my country, then running around and demanding censorship of other people is probably not

00:51:04.180 the move.

00:51:05.880 Spending all of my time obsessing over a foreign war and writing a book on a foreign war is

00:51:12.100 probably not the move.

00:51:13.020 Now, again, Douglas is free to write whatever book he wants.

00:51:17.780 However, he is no more of an expert than anyone else on this issue who he is criticizing.

00:51:25.240 And yet he thinks that ultimately, he is the only one qualified to have an opinion.

00:51:32.560 This is like, I'm not a historian, but I'm pumping out history.

00:51:36.020 I'm not an expert, but I'm talking all the time about this thing.

00:51:38.920 But you're not even talking about specifically on what he just said.

00:51:41.500 No, I'm saying this is my point about this.

00:51:44.520 Again, like Joe Rogan just puts out, like, you are doing exactly what you said you don't

00:51:48.640 like.

00:51:49.440 You have exactly the same problem that you are saying that Dave Smith has.

00:51:53.360 The minute you get pinned down, you pivot, you talk to somebody else, you don't address

00:51:57.680 the issue.

00:51:58.780 You do it over and over and over again.

00:52:01.400 It's always this constant thing.

00:52:03.320 Oh, well, you don't have to be an expert to have an opinion, but you're not an expert,

00:52:06.680 so you should never be allowed on a podcast.

00:52:08.860 You shouldn't have a podcast discussing this.

00:52:11.100 Which one is it, Douglas?

00:52:12.580 And if so, apply that standard to yourself.

00:52:15.640 Are you an expert or not?

00:52:17.300 How many battles have you been in?

00:52:19.580 How many academic degrees in history do you hold?

00:52:23.360 None.

00:52:25.560 Zero time in any of these things, right?

00:52:28.420 None.

00:52:29.580 And yet, he is uniquely qualified.

00:52:31.880 Why?

00:52:32.180 He's a journalist.

00:52:34.240 And like Sam Harris or Barry Weiss, he recognizes his expert class is being threatened.

00:52:39.740 And that's what he's really worried about.

00:52:41.540 You say, I'm not an expert.

00:52:45.760 So what's the solution?

00:52:46.780 To not talk about it?

00:52:47.800 No, it's to have more experts around.

00:52:51.700 Well, the expert class hasn't done a great job, man.

00:52:53.860 This is follow the science.

00:52:55.120 Yeah, but you know what?

00:52:56.160 I agree with that.

00:52:57.240 I just said to you, I agree with that.

00:52:58.940 But one of the problems is...

00:53:00.400 During all of COVID...

00:53:01.480 So again, Douglas is like, yes, I agree.

00:53:04.040 The experts failed.

00:53:05.180 Yes, I agree.

00:53:06.260 The experts have discredited themselves.

00:53:08.760 So what's the solution to this problem, Douglas?

00:53:10.840 What is the solution?

00:53:11.960 What consequence for failure should the expert class have?

00:53:15.060 Oh, I want to make it clear.

00:53:16.220 I don't think there should be any consequence.

00:53:18.580 Yeah, I agree they got it wrong.

00:53:20.100 Yes, I'll admit they got it wrong, but I would never allow them to feel any pain for the decisions

00:53:25.580 they've made.

00:53:27.000 In fact, we need more experts.

00:53:29.320 By the way, every Democrat after the election of Donald Trump said that the reason that Donald

00:53:36.880 Trump won, like every one of these Democratic strategists, all these talking heads on TV,

00:53:41.180 they all claim that the reason that Donald Trump won and Joe Biden lost, or sorry, Kamala

00:53:46.640 Harris lost, is that ultimately, the Republicans had the podcast bros, right?

00:53:53.480 They had Joe Rogan.

00:53:55.000 They had Theo Vaughn.

00:53:56.420 They had the new media.

00:53:59.020 And more young people are listening to the new media instead of the old media.

00:54:03.100 And you know why people are listening to the new media instead of the old media?

00:54:06.920 You know why people are trusting podcasts rather than experts in these areas?

00:54:11.100 Because the experts have lied, because the experts are controlled, because the old media

00:54:16.340 curates heavily everyone who comes onto their program.

00:54:19.820 And yet, they lie and they get it wrong.

00:54:23.540 But the new media, yes, it's less curated, less credentials.

00:54:28.180 However, they seem to get things right more often than the mainstream media.

00:54:33.240 Now again, I often say this is the Alex Jones effect.

00:54:36.600 Is Alex Jones a prophet?

00:54:38.220 Does he have some kind of special gift from on high?

00:54:42.200 I don't think so.

00:54:43.320 I think the reason Alex Jones has a better batting average than the average media person

00:54:46.780 is Alex Jones just always says that the regime is evil and assumes that whatever they're doing

00:54:51.320 is terrible and nefarious.

00:54:53.700 And because the regime is evil, and what they do is often terrible and nefarious, Alex Jones

00:54:58.600 is right more often than the average MSNBC analyst.

00:55:01.880 That doesn't mean that Alex Jones has done the research.

00:55:04.600 It doesn't mean that Alex Jones has the degrees.

00:55:07.220 It doesn't mean that Alex Jones is an expert.

00:55:09.520 But his batting average is higher simply because the people in charge decide to light their

00:55:14.140 credibility on fire.

00:55:16.800 And the only thing left are people who are questioning what's going on.

00:55:21.360 Now, a lot of people like Douglas Murray and many members of the IDW who think that they

00:55:27.420 are God's gift to the world and they decide intellectually what is correct and what is not.

00:55:32.880 They form the truth.

00:55:34.320 They shape the narrative.

00:55:35.760 They don't like this.

00:55:36.940 They are losing their monopoly.

00:55:38.960 And so even though the expert class has failed entirely, they insist that the expert class

00:55:45.260 is the only one that can opine on these issues.

00:55:47.880 And what the only solution is more experts.

00:55:50.580 It's more people making the same mistakes.

00:55:52.520 It's more people with the same broken epistemology.

00:55:54.920 I'm going to be writing something about that here this week because I think it's really important

00:55:58.260 to understand how critically the failure of the liberal epistemology has really rocked

00:56:04.020 the system.

00:56:05.080 But guys like Douglas Murray simply do not have a solution in the same way that Sam Harris

00:56:08.840 does not have a solution.

00:56:10.280 And that's why both of them have the clown themselves when it came time to actually talk

00:56:14.920 about these issues.

00:56:16.240 Because in both cases, both men recognize that there are problems with the system, serious

00:56:21.180 problems with the system, fatal problems with the system.

00:56:23.440 But they would rather hold that system aloft and enshrine it and defend it than allow people

00:56:32.880 to correct it because they are so scared of losing their positions of power and letting

00:56:36.920 that narrative actually unwind.

00:56:39.020 They are so desperate that their class stay in power that they refuse to address the issues

00:56:46.420 involved.

00:56:47.460 And so Douglas over and over again admits, yes, obviously the experts failed.

00:56:51.060 Yes, obviously the experts messed this up.

00:56:53.300 Yes, obviously the experts are no longer fit for purpose.

00:56:55.740 But you know what we need?

00:56:56.760 More experts.

00:56:59.560 We're not going to fix anything.

00:57:01.100 We're not going to solve any problems.

00:57:02.500 We just need more of the same failure.

00:57:06.300 I will put my track record against any of the expert class on COVID.

00:57:11.580 I'm glad to do that.

00:57:13.140 So should I have just shut up?

00:57:14.280 Should I have shut up by opposing lockdowns and opposing vaccine mandates?

00:57:17.820 And talking about the last week theory?

00:57:19.580 That's the entire argument that you're making.

00:57:21.720 Let the experts handle this.

00:57:23.780 And of course he is, right?

00:57:25.240 That's, again, it's a three-hour podcast.

00:57:28.540 I've already spent an hour breaking down just this clip, so I can't go through everything.

00:57:32.700 If you'd like to get the context.

00:57:34.220 Again, I think Douglas Murray sounded much better when he was actually discussing the war that

00:57:38.680 he supports rather than when he was arguing over who's qualified to opine on it.

00:57:43.960 Like if Douglas had just stuck to the facts that he was discussing, again, I'm not highly

00:57:48.840 qualified.

00:57:49.340 Yeah, I'm not going to pretend to be on those.

00:57:52.860 However, I think he sounded much more convincing when he actually discussed the topic he wanted

00:57:58.280 to discuss rather than spending all his time trying to shut up people who he wanted to

00:58:03.260 discredit.

00:58:03.820 So if you want to listen to the rest of that, you might hear some arguments from Douglas that

00:58:08.040 you find compelling or maybe not.

00:58:09.920 The point is you'd actually have to listen to the words Douglas said, which is something

00:58:14.820 that Douglas did not do for Daryl Cooper.

00:58:18.460 And obviously does not do for people like Dave Smith.

00:58:21.920 That is a courtesy.

00:58:22.700 He would not afford any of his interlocutors, right?

00:58:25.780 Because ultimately what Douglas is here to do is defend his position as an arbiter for

00:58:30.720 truth.

00:58:31.240 And his main problem is that other people are saying the wrong things and that he doesn't

00:58:36.340 know how to address the epistemological crisis that liberalism has found itself in.

00:58:42.040 The experts fail.

00:58:43.320 His entire system was built on the idea that experts are holy and they are the ones that

00:58:47.480 deliver truth.

00:58:48.820 They are the ones that have massage narratives, the very narratives that Douglas Murray relies

00:58:53.000 on for his position.

00:58:54.500 If they come apart, Douglas is worried that he will lose his position in the pecking order.

00:59:00.080 That's it.

00:59:01.180 That's it.

00:59:01.980 I mean, he has other concerns.

00:59:03.920 Obviously, he's very passionate.

00:59:05.640 Again, amazingly passionate about the Israel-Palestine war in a way that he criticizes other people

00:59:12.300 for being passionate.

00:59:13.940 So obviously he has other motivations beyond just his position in the expert class.

00:59:18.200 But I think that's a huge part of it, which is why him and Sam Harris, Harris, while talking

00:59:22.240 about very different things, be it Joe Biden's lies and the censorship that went along with

00:59:27.400 that by the social media and the security apparatus in the United States, as opposed to Douglas

00:59:33.520 here discussing whether or not people can talk about history or the situation in Gaza.

00:59:38.100 Either way, they are both focused on the same thing.

00:59:40.540 The expert class dictates the truth.

00:59:42.980 Anybody who threatens the expert class is the enemy.

00:59:46.340 Even if I have problems and I know that ultimately the expert class has wounded itself in a way that is

00:59:52.240 fatal, I am going to cling on to the sinking ship.

00:59:55.280 I am going to go down with the sinking ship because my narrative, my power, my position, my identity

01:00:01.680 are wrapped up in that.

01:00:03.480 And so that is what I am going to defend to the death.

01:00:06.960 And so I'm going to tell people to shut up.

01:00:09.580 The funny thing is there's another clip going around online of Douglas making an argument

01:00:13.280 exactly against this type of argument.

01:00:16.280 Douglas has repeatedly said that the idea of lived experience or credentials and the need

01:00:21.720 to shut people up if they have not had those experience or hold those credentials, that is

01:00:25.240 wrong and that is stupid.

01:00:26.700 Douglas has said that at length.

01:00:29.740 And yet here he has exactly the opposite position.

01:00:32.880 Why?

01:00:33.600 Well, because previously it was being used to push him out and now he wants to use that

01:00:38.140 argument to push other people out.

01:00:40.140 It's unprincipled.

01:00:42.320 When Douglas is weak, he wants to use your principles against you.

01:00:46.100 And when Douglas is strong, he no longer cares about those principles.

01:00:50.040 They were only being used against you when you were strong.

01:00:55.280 Now that he's in the position of power, he does not care.

01:00:58.040 He doesn't care about free speech.

01:01:00.540 He doesn't care about the ability to question things.

01:01:02.820 He doesn't care.

01:01:04.080 He wants more experts to shut you up.

01:01:06.740 That's it.

01:01:07.500 Because the expert class has to stay in power.

01:01:10.280 That is the most important thing.

01:01:12.840 All right, guys, we've got quite a bit of questions or comments from the audience here.

01:01:17.880 So let's move over there real quick.

01:01:24.500 Oh, move this here.

01:01:28.040 Uh, Aramaic Discourse says, for my fellow Zoroastrian Catholic cultists.

01:01:33.200 Yes, thank you very much.

01:01:34.760 I guess James is definitely going to fall into the category of people who probably agree

01:01:40.160 very much with Sam Harris and Douglas Murray here.

01:01:43.600 Uh, Perspicacious Heretic says, you're an expert as long as I agree with you.

01:01:46.760 Yeah, that literally seems to be the standard.

01:01:49.420 Like, shamelessly, that really does seem to be the standard here.

01:01:52.980 It's sadly that simple.

01:01:56.620 Uh, No Guard says, I especially loved Murray's reaction to Dave citing specific actions by

01:02:02.540 particular influential neocons.

01:02:05.080 Again, you can go back and listen to the whole thing if you would like to get a better grasp

01:02:09.440 of the full debate.

01:02:11.300 Uh, I think Murray sounded better when he was actually discussing the topic.

01:02:15.860 But again, multiple times he does get caught, you know, by, by points like this that Dave

01:02:21.080 Smith makes that he doesn't seem to have very much of a response for.

01:02:25.220 Torin McCabe says, let's grow up less comedians just asking questions, more experts and institutions

01:02:33.100 with specific policies that help our peoples.

01:02:35.880 Yes, again, that would be great.

01:02:37.380 The only problem is that our institutions are currently not oriented to help our peoples.

01:02:41.760 That's it.

01:02:42.420 That's the real problem.

01:02:44.360 In a, in a good society, in a correct society, Dave, uh, rather Douglas Murray would be correct

01:02:50.180 and Torin here would be correct.

01:02:51.760 In a, in a healthy society, both of these guys would be correct to defend the institutions

01:02:56.760 because the institutions would be working on behalf of the people would be perpetuating

01:03:01.420 the beliefs and, uh, values of the people.

01:03:04.120 They'd be inculcating the culture of the people, but that is just not the case.

01:03:08.820 Our experts don't care about the people.

01:03:11.500 In fact, they specifically destroy the credibility of their institutions in an attempt to control

01:03:17.160 narratives that they have lost control of.

01:03:19.480 And that's what you just can't abide.

01:03:21.760 I understand that this is a very, uh, dangerous place to be.

01:03:25.260 I've actually written a piece on the dangers of having your consensus making apparatus break

01:03:29.480 down for the right.

01:03:30.860 Uh, if people want to revisit that, I think it's a good time to do so.

01:03:34.120 But ultimately we have to recognize that something has to change here and it's not going to change

01:03:38.220 unless people are deconstructing some of the false narratives that put forward by, by experts

01:03:44.640 that obviously are not working on our behalf.

01:03:49.300 Oren McIntyre can't say my name, so I changed it.

01:03:51.860 Thank you.

01:03:52.360 Uh, loved your vid on Liberty, uh, Valance.

01:03:54.900 Would love more occasional breakdowns of media like that one for fun.

01:03:58.440 Based media or not.

01:03:59.840 God blessed.

01:04:00.460 Christ is king.

01:04:01.580 Well, thank you very much.

01:04:02.440 I appreciate that.

01:04:03.140 Christ is indeed king.

01:04:04.400 And, uh, I do try to break in those from time to time.

01:04:06.820 I've done those with, uh, the Prudentialist when it comes to some video games.

01:04:10.380 Uh, same thing.

01:04:11.440 I, I believe, uh, Dave, uh, Green and, uh, Morgoth have joined me for some movie reviews,

01:04:17.820 uh, last things and such.

01:04:18.980 So I don't do it as often as I probably should.

01:04:21.640 Maybe I'll pepper more of those in, but I'm glad that you enjoyed it.

01:04:25.880 Uh, let's see here.

01:04:27.200 CB says, is we getting a Manhattan Institute for Americans?

01:04:33.520 Uh, perspicacious heretic says, what does being a scholar actually mean?

01:04:37.420 Do you literally have to be inside a fancy brick building for it to count as, uh, being

01:04:42.440 well-read again for a lot of people, sadly, that is the case.

01:04:45.680 Uh, and, you know, in general, that's a reasonable heuristic throughout most of, uh, American

01:04:50.500 history.

01:04:51.000 However, uh, there have been very many, uh, very important scholars who have worked outside

01:04:56.520 of the, of academia.

01:04:59.040 Um, you have a number of guys who never held university positions and still said very profound

01:05:04.360 and important things.

01:05:05.180 I mean, uh, Oswald Spangler comes to mind.

01:05:07.620 The guy was a history teacher in high school, I believe, uh, his whole life.

01:05:11.680 He never entered into the university, uh, and yet very influential and very influential.

01:05:15.340 I think, uh, so yeah, uh, obviously, you know, uh, it would be nice if we could trust our

01:05:20.460 institutions and it would be nice if the majority of people coming out of those institutions

01:05:24.440 were actually scholarly.

01:05:26.120 And that was where the important work was getting done.

01:05:28.220 But as I've said, when I've discussed this with people who are in academia, they say,

01:05:32.180 yeah, in most cases, that's just not actually what's going on.

01:05:38.340 Uh, man, William says the British mind cannot comprehend having free speech without a license,

01:05:42.580 uh, or a professional background.

01:05:44.260 Sam Hyde is right.

01:05:45.300 They are cooked.

01:05:46.020 Uh, unfortunately, I think that might be the case.

01:05:49.180 And, and I say that, you know, with a lot of trepidation because I have a lot of friends

01:05:53.380 in England and, uh, you know, it's a beautiful country.

01:05:56.420 Uh, obviously it's something we have deep historical ties to and a tradition I'd like to see continued

01:06:01.480 on, but, uh, things are not looking great there.

01:06:03.580 Uh, and while I think guys like, uh, like the Lotus Eaters and others are, are, are battling

01:06:08.660 valiantly, uh, on that front, uh, I, I gotta say, uh, it, it doesn't look great.

01:06:15.880 Uh, Lurch 685 says Douglas likes Israel only for two reasons.

01:06:20.220 He absolutely hates Muslims, all of them and sees, uh, anyone who kills a lot of them as

01:06:25.080 inherently good too.

01:06:26.340 He can participate in all kinds of degeneracy.

01:06:28.880 You know, I gotta say this, um, uh, the one mistake that I think a lot of people make

01:06:34.100 is, uh, and I've seen this repeatedly, unfortunately, is that they will have a disagreement with Israel

01:06:40.040 or Israeli influence in the United States or our, you know, us being involved with them

01:06:45.320 foreign policy wise, uh, aid wise, that kind of thing.

01:06:48.340 And then they will say, well, enemy of my enemy is my friend.

01:06:51.100 So maybe the Muslims are, you know, on our side.

01:06:54.220 And I want to remind you guys that Islam is a historic enemy of Christianity.

01:06:58.240 Um, uh, Islam has slaughtered countless Christians, enslaved, countless Christians, uh, driven,

01:07:06.040 uh, countless Christians out of their homelands.

01:07:08.520 Uh, Islam is not good.

01:07:10.580 Islam is a false religion.

01:07:12.260 It is a violent religion, uh, that seeks to murder, not just Jews, but Christians as well.

01:07:17.800 Uh, now this doesn't mean that we should go out there and try to kill as many Muslims as

01:07:21.540 possible all the time.

01:07:22.760 Obviously you need to be involved in a just war, uh, you know, uh, when that's the case.

01:07:27.360 However, uh, treating, uh, just because you may disagree with what Israel is doing, or

01:07:32.820 you disagree, uh, with many of its, um, loudest and most obnoxious, uh, uh, you know, uh, proponents

01:07:40.520 does not mean that Islam is your friend.

01:07:42.860 Okay.

01:07:43.320 That does not mean, uh, that you, you should suddenly say, well, uh, if, if I disagree with

01:07:48.960 some policy policy with Israel, then everything the Palestinians do is justified or Islam is

01:07:53.680 ultimately not that bad.

01:07:54.620 Like, no, it's bad.

01:07:55.640 And you don't really want it in your country either.

01:07:57.820 Uh, the one thing that Douglas Murray's right about is that there shouldn't be Muslims in

01:08:01.120 the UK.

01:08:02.240 If he's not, if he's wrong about anything, everything else, he'd be right about that.

01:08:08.280 Uh, life of Brian says, I'd like to thank Douglas Murray for taking a neo, uh, a neocon

01:08:13.240 out of commission and be clowning the British aristocracy, uh, even super, uh, even super

01:08:19.440 Zionist ran away.

01:08:20.840 Um, you know, I've seen a lot of people defend his performance on here, but I got to say,

01:08:25.980 you have to be a pretty big partisan, I think, to look at what Douglas Murray said and think

01:08:31.300 that's okay.

01:08:32.100 Again, when it comes to that war itself, I can see how Douglas probably came off.

01:08:37.260 Okay.

01:08:37.560 For people who are like pro Israel.

01:08:40.480 Like, I think he sounded more competent and more convincing when he was actually discussing

01:08:45.220 the topic.

01:08:46.100 Unfortunately, he spent a very large amount of time not doing that.

01:08:49.520 And he discredited him himself in an attempt to discredit others so that most people probably

01:08:54.480 didn't even hear his arguments about Israel or their position in the war because they were

01:08:59.420 too busy looking at him and being like, wow, this guy sounds really entitled and, uh, really

01:09:05.360 ugly and is willing to dismiss the opinion of basically everyone.

01:09:09.320 Uh, you know, again, I'll let people make their own decisions on who won the debate itself.

01:09:15.240 I didn't even play really anything from the actual debate on the issue because his kind

01:09:22.200 of whole preamble was so off-putting that I don't think most people actually even probably

01:09:26.880 continued in that podcast.

01:09:28.420 I did.

01:09:28.760 I listened to the whole thing.

01:09:29.860 Uh, but I would say ultimately, uh, you know, you might be right that he discredited his

01:09:34.720 position, not because of his actual arguments that because his position was factually inaccurate,

01:09:39.960 but because he was so condescending and so entitled and so dismissive of basically everyone

01:09:47.120 else that it's hard to look at someone making an argument in that style and then actually

01:09:51.800 listen to the substance.

01:09:54.780 Uh, well, Logan says heartening to see gatekeeping so desperate.

01:09:59.400 Yeah, I'll, I'll say that it does look pretty desperate, which is another thing that another

01:10:04.200 dynamic that did not come off well here for Douglas.

01:10:06.800 Uh, it definitely, it looks like a move of desperation.

01:10:09.240 Uh, in fact, it's the entire, it's the exact move that guys in the IDW would have expressed,

01:10:15.960 uh, you know, their concern over.

01:10:18.460 They would have said, this looks pretty desperate from the woke left when they were making their

01:10:22.380 cases.

01:10:22.780 Uh, so, uh, yeah, I mean, just not, not a great look, uh, not, not the best ambassador

01:10:28.440 for his position, even if ultimately maybe he made some, some decent arguments throughout

01:10:33.120 most people listening probably wouldn't even know because he was so off-putting in his

01:10:37.360 delivery and his approach there.

01:10:40.220 All right, guys, it looks like that is all of the questions of the people.

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The Auron MacIntyre Show - April 14, 2025

Breaking Down Douglas Murray VS Dave Smith ｜ 4⧸14⧸25

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