The Auron MacIntyre Show - Can the Administrative State Be Replaced？｜ Guest： Kruptos ｜ 8⧸16⧸23

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.640 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.200 I've got a great stream with a great guest that you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.300 So, if you've been paying attention to my channel for any amount of time,

00:00:42.040 you've heard me drone on and on about the managerial elite

00:00:45.200 and the importance of understanding the structures laid out by people like James Burnham and Sam Francis

00:00:51.460 so that we can better grasp what's going on around us,

00:00:55.160 why our politics works the way it does today,

00:00:57.580 why we have the assembly of this thing that many people call the deep state or the cathedral.

00:01:02.380 These are all, I think, really important things to understand.

00:01:05.680 But one question, one that a lot of people ask is,

00:01:08.780 well, is it the structure itself that's the problem or is it the people?

00:01:12.160 Could we just take the people who are bad, take all the woke people, 1.00

00:01:16.060 take all the guys at the State Department who are trying to, you know,

00:01:19.440 fly a rainbow flag over every Middle Eastern country,

00:01:22.380 and could we just replace them with a lot of based people,

00:01:24.940 and then we'd have the based bureaucracy, right?

00:01:27.120 And everything would be great.

00:01:28.460 Well, there's a gentleman who has just written a piece that I thought was very interesting

00:01:31.940 and addressed this in a very good way, and I want to talk to him about it.

00:01:35.620 So, Kruptos, thank you for joining me, man.

00:01:38.100 Oh, you're welcome.

00:01:38.940 Glad to be on here to talk about it.

00:01:41.180 Absolutely, yeah.

00:01:41.740 He's got a great sub stack.

00:01:42.960 Make sure that you check it out.

00:01:44.280 I'll make sure that he goes ahead and pitches that a few times here near the end.

00:01:48.660 But in that sub stack, he does it very nice, and I really appreciate this.

00:01:52.600 You always do the article and the recording.

00:01:55.700 I do the same thing because sometimes, you know,

00:01:57.540 I've got the time to sit down and read a piece,

00:01:59.680 but a lot of times, you know, I'm mowing the lawn, I'm driving,

00:02:02.560 I'm, you know, trying to take care of something, you know, go to the gym,

00:02:04.760 and I want to make sure I can still, you know, get something.

00:02:08.060 So, you do both, which I very much appreciate.

00:02:10.940 But you kind of lay out, you know, this argument about whether or not we can

00:02:16.720 replace the managerial elite.

00:02:18.800 Before we jump into any of that, though, I want to ask you,

00:02:22.800 how did you get started writing about this?

00:02:24.720 What got you interested?

00:02:26.200 You know, what got you onto the subject?

00:02:27.920 Yeah, well, for me, Ellul goes back like a long way to college and university.

00:02:34.980 I had a professor in undergraduate who was very big on Jacques Ellul,

00:02:41.480 and he made us read some.

00:02:43.780 And then I, in grad school, picked up a couple of his books

00:02:47.360 and just started diving in and was hooked.

00:02:49.840 Actually, the first Ellul that I read, like cover to cover,

00:02:53.400 was his last book on technology, The Technological Bluff.

00:02:57.920 And then from there, I went back and reread or read the earlier books,

00:03:03.700 you know, The Technological Society and so forth and other ones,

00:03:07.360 Propaganda as well, too.

00:03:09.920 That was actually the book that the professor introduced us to.

00:03:13.240 I forget the class now, but he introduced us to Jacques Ellul's Propaganda,

00:03:18.340 and that was selection readings from that book was actually the first thing

00:03:23.200 that I read of him before, you know, The Technological Bluff.

00:03:27.080 It's just, it was funny, one of those things after, believe it or not,

00:03:32.380 Charles Haywood urged me to start a Stubstack of my own rather than pestering

00:03:36.880 him via email about his articles.

00:03:39.840 And he was really good, actually, as he said to me, you know,

00:03:41.960 somebody might actually read this.

00:03:44.140 And, you know, I could maybe put out a word with you from a few people that I know.

00:03:48.700 And I said, well, that would be really nice.

00:03:49.900 But then he says, you know, thinking about it, he says, probably what you should do

00:03:53.360 is maybe, like, start a blog or a, and then Stubstack was just kind of taking off then.

00:03:59.100 And, you know, like, why don't you try a Stubstack?

00:04:01.340 So I did that.

00:04:02.080 And then I thought, well, how do I get the word out?

00:04:04.000 And I thought, well, Twitter would be a thing.

00:04:05.640 And so that one thing led to another.

00:04:07.220 And next thing you know, everything is kind of rolling that way.

00:04:11.120 And then once on Twitter, you know, you'd be reading the timeline,

00:04:14.040 and people would be making these comments about how things work.

00:04:18.260 And then I'd be thinking, wait a minute, you don't understand anything.

00:04:21.140 So I would just do these long threads on Ellul.

00:04:24.700 And people, then you'd get some guys like, wow, nobody ever talks about Ellul.

00:04:27.860 It's kind of funny that you're talking about Ellul.

00:04:29.800 So then after writing a couple of pieces, I thought,

00:04:33.720 why don't I start doing some deeper dives into Ellul's book for people

00:04:39.300 and just helping show them some of that.

00:04:42.300 So I've been reading some stuff that, rereading some books that I had read before,

00:04:46.060 and then actually reading some new stuff that I hadn't read before,

00:04:49.560 like his book on violence, Autopsy of Revolution was one,

00:04:55.880 and The Political Illusion.

00:04:57.540 Now, there's a, the translator for The Political Illusion,

00:05:04.820 because Ellul is, of course, French and wrote in French.

00:05:07.860 The translator for Political Illusion made the observation that

00:05:11.480 The Technological Society, Propaganda, and The Political Illusion

00:05:17.680 really form kind of a trilogy.

00:05:20.360 So if you want to get at the core of Ellul in terms of his thinking about,

00:05:24.240 you know, technology, propaganda, and politics,

00:05:27.920 and how the three kind of interplay with each other,

00:05:30.880 reading those three books would be helpful.

00:05:32.940 Probably the easiest one is actually The Political Illusion than The Technological

00:05:39.140 Society, and Propaganda is a fairly dense and difficult book,

00:05:44.000 but well worth the read for those who have read it.

00:05:47.440 Excellent.

00:05:48.080 Well, I want to go ahead and to get, because I haven't read him,

00:05:50.640 so we're going to get into what he has to say,

00:05:53.300 how this applies to kind of the administrative state,

00:05:57.100 and whether this addresses many of the managerial elite questions

00:06:00.960 raised by elite theorists and others.

00:06:02.880 But before we get into all that, guys,

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00:07:16.100 All right, so let's go ahead and jump in.

00:07:18.240 I guess the first question for a lot of people,

00:07:20.600 again, most people who have been to my channel,

00:07:23.820 they're going to have a general understanding

00:07:25.520 of the Manageal Revolution,

00:07:27.800 a general understanding that there is an administrative state,

00:07:30.620 that this does create bureaucracies

00:07:33.100 that have kind of their own motivations,

00:07:35.640 this principal actor problems,

00:07:37.780 all these things that a lot of people are more familiar with.

00:07:40.960 And they might say,

00:07:41.820 okay, well, can we just put our guys in there

00:07:45.640 and switch everything over?

00:07:47.780 Can we just take the current administration, switch out,

00:07:51.420 we'll train somebody in the new Trump administration

00:07:55.260 or new DeSantis administration to staff it up properly,

00:07:58.280 and we'll just swap in our guys,

00:08:00.160 and that'll kind of correct the course of the current system.

00:08:04.080 Why do you think that is not a good solution?

00:08:08.300 Well, it comes down to this,

00:08:09.580 and part of it is the way that we look at technology.

00:08:13.660 Okay, so Ellul argued that the most important thing

00:08:18.780 about technologies are not the actual devices.

00:08:22.080 So, you know, the television, the computer,

00:08:23.660 the automobile, the air conditioner, the light bulb,

00:08:26.660 all of these things.

00:08:28.340 He says, he argued that technology is made possible

00:08:34.220 by a certain way of thinking,

00:08:36.000 and that is, you know, technical thinking.

00:08:38.180 So he called that sort of underlying way of thinking technique.

00:08:41.720 And so the idea of technique is that you take a problem.

00:08:45.740 So let's say, for example, you've got a craftsman,

00:08:48.440 or a good example that I use is teaching.

00:08:51.860 So you have a person in a classroom,

00:08:53.820 they teach, they use their skill, their ability,

00:08:56.280 they're gifted with kids, and they come across.

00:08:58.740 So somebody looks at that and says,

00:08:59.960 well, teaching is very up and down.

00:09:01.700 We've got some good teachers, bad teachers.

00:09:03.320 How can we make the outcomes more consistent and predictable?

00:09:07.540 So somebody sits down, he analyzes the teaching,

00:09:09.920 looks at good teachers, bad teachers,

00:09:11.560 sees what the good teachers do.

00:09:13.240 He breaks it all down into a series of processes,

00:09:16.180 and he comes up with a number of methods,

00:09:18.080 develops a program and a series of programs,

00:09:20.020 you know, interviews teachers, does all these things.

00:09:21.800 So he abstracts the process of teaching,

00:09:25.940 should I say, out of its natural embedded context

00:09:29.560 in the person, the teacher, the classroom.

00:09:32.160 And then he develops a plan or procedure,

00:09:35.080 a set of techniques, tools that then people can use.

00:09:38.600 So then what you do is you plug people back into this system

00:09:42.380 and you train them not so much to use their own gifts

00:09:46.540 and abilities, and some will inevitably do that,

00:09:49.400 but you basically train them into the system, right?

00:09:52.880 And you can do this all across in, you know,

00:09:55.400 whether it's quality control,

00:09:56.900 whether it's customer service,

00:09:59.120 because, you know, anything that has a policy manual,

00:10:02.500 you know, it all ends up being the same thing.

00:10:05.640 So this is the application of managerial techniques

00:10:10.080 or what most people would call best practices today, right?

00:10:13.380 Exactly.

00:10:13.700 Well, the best practices is actually a technique, right?

00:10:15.740 So anywhere where you have a best practice,

00:10:17.620 you have, you know, that's a sign

00:10:19.300 that technique is operating, I think.

00:10:21.240 And so we tend to approach, Ellul argues,

00:10:23.920 every problem through this lens.

00:10:26.580 So technique is kind of the default way

00:10:29.420 of thinking about the world.

00:10:31.660 So he says, argue, it came up through industrialization,

00:10:35.360 you know, after the French Revolution,

00:10:37.860 through the emergence,

00:10:38.980 and both in business and in government,

00:10:41.500 the two kind of develop side by side,

00:10:44.300 rationalizing pretty much everything.

00:10:46.840 And now we basically think about every problem this way.

00:10:50.160 You know, how do we come up with a plan?

00:10:51.260 How do we come up with a solution?

00:10:52.820 Everybody's got a plan.

00:10:53.740 Everybody's got kind of a rationalized process procedure

00:10:56.280 for every problem that they face.

00:10:58.700 And so, and this is really, you know,

00:11:01.500 you ask yourself, well, why has capital gone woke?

00:11:03.720 Well, because a bureaucracy is a bureaucracy.

00:11:06.520 They all basically run on the same mentality.

00:11:09.320 So whether you're trying to make your business more efficient

00:11:11.620 and your outcomes more predictable,

00:11:13.560 you use the same basic ideas.

00:11:15.880 So you come into your factory,

00:11:17.160 you rationalize it, you know,

00:11:18.840 you rationalize all the processes,

00:11:20.480 you develop a set of procedures,

00:11:22.040 and then you train your employees to follow them rigidly.

00:11:25.180 And as a result, you produce consistent outcomes.

00:11:29.320 Now, this whole process is very, very powerful.

00:11:32.880 And that's why we've continued to use it.

00:11:34.940 It allowed, at root,

00:11:36.640 the whole thing is organized to shape society

00:11:39.840 largely for the making of money.

00:11:43.140 And that's really, you know,

00:11:44.360 why governments and business are together.

00:11:48.420 You basically need the administrative state

00:11:51.020 in order to have what we know as free market capitalism

00:11:54.560 or, you know, the capitalists.

00:11:55.880 So it all kind of runs together and meshes together.

00:11:59.260 And whether it's, you know, think tanks, policy groups,

00:12:02.300 whether it's big business advocacy groups,

00:12:04.560 once you move beyond the level of like a single man shop

00:12:10.320 where everything is embedded in the skill

00:12:13.220 and the character and the culture of the shop

00:12:17.320 and nothing is written down,

00:12:18.820 once you move to, you know, that sort of next,

00:12:21.220 you'll talk about that.

00:12:22.020 Well, how do you grow a business?

00:12:23.180 You know, he's not really set up for growth

00:12:25.020 because he hasn't, you know,

00:12:26.600 developed the policies or procedures.

00:12:28.520 You know, it's like the same thing with franchising.

00:12:30.740 Everything that you go up with scale

00:12:32.260 requires you to use techniques.

00:12:35.260 So as soon as you move from that small local community,

00:12:38.900 one man shop up to those higher levels of scale,

00:12:42.360 the thing that enables you to do that is technique.

00:12:46.000 And then technique feeds into all the devices

00:12:49.040 and everything else would basically run,

00:12:51.020 you know, your computer systems and all the rest,

00:12:53.400 just reinforce and allow it to happen.

00:12:56.460 Now, in terms of the administrative state,

00:12:59.340 so we understand that we have this basic idea

00:13:01.260 of technique working in the background.

00:13:04.580 The mistake that a lot of people make

00:13:07.180 in looking at technology is that we've been taught

00:13:10.920 that technology is neutral, right?

00:13:12.980 Technology is neither good nor bad.

00:13:15.680 It depends on how you use it.

00:13:17.480 A classical example of this is the debate over guns, right?

00:13:20.760 You know, a gun itself doesn't kill anybody

00:13:23.260 or the gun itself isn't bad.

00:13:25.120 It really depends how you use it.

00:13:27.500 And Ellul would argue that no,

00:13:29.160 the technology of a gun has its own inherent purpose. 0.92

00:13:33.060 It's designed to kill people, right?

00:13:35.240 And that's what it does. 0.99

00:13:36.580 Or shoot projectiles, like lethal projectiles,

00:13:39.500 at a high rate of speed.

00:13:40.580 So what Ellul argues is that the technology

00:13:45.480 is neither good nor bad.

00:13:47.960 It's just ambivalent.

00:13:49.120 It doesn't care.

00:13:50.820 And as a result, he says, there's a number,

00:13:53.620 he says, all techniques follow a basic pattern

00:13:56.240 is that every technique has positives and negatives, right?

00:14:00.880 So there's a reason why we introduce techniques

00:14:04.280 is that techniques have positives.

00:14:06.320 So we want the positives.

00:14:07.700 But he says, with those positives come a price,

00:14:12.800 an evil or an ill that comes along with it.

00:14:15.940 So you might use the gun, for example,

00:14:18.260 to defend your family, defend your country,

00:14:20.680 hunt, and so forth.

00:14:22.320 But in the hands of a deviant,

00:14:24.960 that same gun has some very negative effects

00:14:28.480 as well, too, right?

00:14:29.280 So, you know, your son might find it in the drawer

00:14:31.960 and he accidentally shoots his sister.

00:14:33.840 Well, you know, you could say,

00:14:35.880 well, somebody needs a policy for guns or whatever, too.

00:14:38.040 But really, it's inherent in the gun.

00:14:40.240 Sooner or later, somebody's going to get accidentally killed.

00:14:42.520 That's just, that's an ill that goes along

00:14:44.060 with the goods that come from it.

00:14:46.060 And then, alongside of this,

00:14:48.820 Ellul argues that at each stage of technology,

00:14:53.140 right, so as technology gets more sophisticated,

00:14:57.080 the goods are still there,

00:14:59.460 but the problems become more and greater every time.

00:15:03.600 And he says, the harmful effects are inseparable

00:15:06.180 from the beneficial effects, right?

00:15:07.880 And then...

00:15:08.460 So before we get too far down that road,

00:15:10.720 because it's important,

00:15:11.720 but I think there's something I want to rewind back

00:15:14.280 a little bit,

00:15:15.020 because I want to parse this for a moment.

00:15:17.480 So if for a moment there,

00:15:19.320 it feels like we conflated social organization

00:15:22.040 and technological advancement.

00:15:26.440 And I just want to make sure,

00:15:28.840 is Ellul saying that these things

00:15:31.100 are always linked together directly,

00:15:35.860 or are these distinct?

00:15:37.920 Because, for instance,

00:15:39.500 technological advancement occurred

00:15:41.680 before bureaucratic, managerial,

00:15:44.520 social organization at scale.

00:15:46.560 And so the question is,

00:15:48.580 are these things one and the same?

00:15:50.720 Do they feed off each other?

00:15:52.180 Can they be independently, you know, separated?

00:15:55.820 Like, what is the relationship he's implying?

00:15:59.120 So what Ellul is saying,

00:16:00.960 and this is the central thesis

00:16:02.720 of the technological society,

00:16:04.900 is that we have,

00:16:08.320 by introducing these things,

00:16:10.420 yeah, at a certain point in time,

00:16:12.740 you know, technology,

00:16:14.440 man has always been a tool using being, right?

00:16:17.300 So we've always used tools.

00:16:18.960 But Ellul says that there was a point

00:16:20.640 where the decisive thing with this tool

00:16:23.340 was not the tool,

00:16:25.100 but the skill they had.

00:16:26.280 So mankind say, for example,

00:16:28.220 like a law is a tool, right?

00:16:30.440 But you would have a few laws

00:16:32.880 embedded in the culture.

00:16:34.300 Maybe they're written down,

00:16:35.400 but these laws are then applied

00:16:37.340 to a broad range of situations.

00:16:39.300 So for a perfect example,

00:16:40.340 say the 10 commandments, right?

00:16:41.440 You have a simple set of rules,

00:16:42.600 and these 10 rules then,

00:16:44.920 you know, govern and manage

00:16:46.540 a whole range of situations, right?

00:16:48.860 And so, well, how does it do that?

00:16:50.720 Well, it does that because

00:16:51.880 people using their own innate wisdom

00:16:55.420 and knowledge experience,

00:16:56.640 they then apply these small number of rules

00:16:59.900 to different situations.

00:17:01.040 The same thing with tools.

00:17:02.300 You have a handful of simple tools

00:17:04.500 that they're not perfect,

00:17:05.760 but you're able to use them

00:17:07.880 in a varied context in different ways.

00:17:09.580 And different communities

00:17:10.680 might use these tools

00:17:11.840 in slightly different ways,

00:17:13.180 depending on the culture

00:17:14.060 and history of a community, right?

00:17:16.700 So what Ellul says

00:17:17.920 in this abstraction process,

00:17:19.520 as you then break down the tool use,

00:17:22.220 as you develop more powerful tools, right?

00:17:26.160 What happens is you begin

00:17:27.560 to organize your society

00:17:29.320 around the use of tools.

00:17:31.080 And at a certain tipping point,

00:17:32.460 it is no longer you,

00:17:36.220 your mastery dictating

00:17:38.080 how the tool is used.

00:17:39.660 The tool begins to dictate

00:17:41.940 itself to you, right?

00:17:44.700 In some sense, the tool becomes

00:17:46.400 what he calls,

00:17:47.000 it's a term that he calls

00:17:48.360 self-augmentation.

00:17:50.180 So once you reach a tipping point,

00:17:51.800 which we passed a long time ago,

00:17:53.940 technique proliferates almost on its own.

00:17:56.060 So we've been,

00:17:56.880 the technical thinking

00:17:59.460 begins to organize society

00:18:01.440 around technique.

00:18:02.880 So everything in society

00:18:04.580 becomes abstract, right?

00:18:07.640 I used an example the other day.

00:18:09.220 So on the one hand,

00:18:10.880 you have like relationship advice,

00:18:13.480 being a husband,

00:18:14.180 being a wife, right? 0.88

00:18:15.220 But once you start

00:18:16.300 thinking about everything,

00:18:17.640 you know, five steps to,

00:18:18.940 you know, you buy a book,

00:18:19.780 five steps to being a better wife, 0.98

00:18:21.720 you know,

00:18:22.420 these types of things,

00:18:24.100 you begin to realize

00:18:25.040 that all of your way of thinking

00:18:26.560 is organized around

00:18:28.040 technique and method.

00:18:29.060 There's nothing that you do socially

00:18:31.600 that isn't governed

00:18:32.920 in some way by technique.

00:18:34.680 You could have,

00:18:35.500 a good example is say

00:18:36.860 the family dinner, right?

00:18:38.480 The Christmas dinner.

00:18:39.480 So you have Thanksgiving dinner.

00:18:41.100 There's a whole set of traditions.

00:18:42.620 The family's always done it this way.

00:18:44.520 You know,

00:18:44.760 and it's kind of built

00:18:46.200 into the group of people.

00:18:47.200 But then let's say

00:18:48.300 you want to improve,

00:18:49.800 you know,

00:18:50.040 so you go buy the book,

00:18:51.260 you know,

00:18:51.840 15 steps to having

00:18:53.080 great Thanksgiving dinners,

00:18:54.260 right?

00:18:54.840 Now you've entered

00:18:55.740 the realm of technique

00:18:57.000 into your system.

00:18:58.140 So you break down

00:18:59.180 your family dinner,

00:19:00.160 you introduce all things,

00:19:01.060 you've got new decorations,

00:19:02.280 and it seems better

00:19:04.380 and more powerful,

00:19:05.100 but now the thing

00:19:05.860 isn't really human anymore.

00:19:07.260 It's a function

00:19:08.120 and a product of technique.

00:19:09.920 Yeah, you're...

00:19:10.780 Sorry, go ahead.

00:19:12.780 So you apply this then

00:19:14.200 across all of society

00:19:15.560 to just about everything

00:19:16.820 that we do,

00:19:17.860 and everything gets run

00:19:19.500 by a set of techniques

00:19:21.040 given to you by experts

00:19:23.140 who develop them,

00:19:24.060 you know,

00:19:24.280 rationalize just about everything.

00:19:27.580 So now that we have

00:19:29.580 an understanding

00:19:30.240 of kind of how that works,

00:19:32.000 let's go to our main question,

00:19:34.620 though.

00:19:35.240 Why can't we just swipe it?

00:19:37.380 If this is how society

00:19:39.720 has to be organized

00:19:41.160 once it hits

00:19:41.800 a certain level of complexity,

00:19:43.440 why don't we just swap in

00:19:44.600 more base guys

00:19:45.940 into this infrastructure

00:19:47.540 then if this is

00:19:48.920 the necessary level

00:19:50.700 of complexity and development

00:19:52.440 once we're going to get

00:19:53.220 to the scale,

00:19:54.380 then why don't we just

00:19:55.300 bring in our own guys

00:19:56.120 and do it from there?

00:19:57.800 Okay, so in a sense

00:19:59.360 that there is some truth

00:20:01.060 to that, right?

00:20:01.620 Okay, so we have to remember too,

00:20:04.160 and again,

00:20:04.580 because technology is ambivalent

00:20:06.340 and we could draw in here,

00:20:07.760 and I did in the piece

00:20:08.600 draw in Marshall McLuhan,

00:20:10.220 you know,

00:20:10.380 the medium is the message

00:20:11.440 because he's very good.

00:20:12.600 And what McLuhan argues

00:20:14.420 is that the most significant thing

00:20:17.000 about a technology

00:20:18.400 technology is not

00:20:19.800 the content of the technology,

00:20:22.180 it's the fact of the technology.

00:20:24.020 So for example,

00:20:25.500 the automobile,

00:20:27.260 you know,

00:20:27.480 the fact of the automobile

00:20:28.720 and its ability,

00:20:30.220 its mobility

00:20:31.080 and all the rest of it

00:20:32.480 is more important

00:20:33.820 than any one trip

00:20:35.160 that you might take.

00:20:36.040 So whether you're taking

00:20:36.860 a trip out to the countryside

00:20:38.100 or you're using it

00:20:39.240 to commute to the office,

00:20:41.880 the trips are really irrelevant

00:20:43.560 relative to things.

00:20:44.840 And same thing with, say,

00:20:45.660 like something like television.

00:20:46.580 I think that was the example

00:20:47.280 I used in the piece.

00:20:49.020 The fact of the television

00:20:50.580 is more important

00:20:51.480 than any programming.

00:20:52.480 So of course,

00:20:53.360 it's better

00:20:54.820 to have wholesome programming 0.61

00:20:57.120 than to be watching porn.

00:20:59.540 But if you're watching both of them,

00:21:01.980 you're still in a sense

00:21:02.900 a couch potato.

00:21:03.960 The TV has affected you, right?

00:21:06.240 So now if we carry this over

00:21:08.180 to the administrative state,

00:21:09.580 you know,

00:21:10.120 the example I used

00:21:11.620 in the piece was,

00:21:13.620 you know,

00:21:14.160 if somebody's going to be

00:21:14.940 writing programming

00:21:16.020 for the administrative state,

00:21:17.900 like we took it,

00:21:18.580 if the most important thing

00:21:19.660 is the fact,

00:21:20.480 the technology

00:21:21.120 of the administrative state,

00:21:22.220 well, yeah, of course,

00:21:22.960 I'd want somebody like,

00:21:23.980 say, Chris Rufo

00:21:24.740 making the programming, right?

00:21:25.920 We get nice, wholesome programming.

00:21:27.760 You know,

00:21:27.980 we don't want liberal porn on there. 0.95

00:21:29.760 You know, that's good, right?

00:21:31.060 But we still have the problem

00:21:34.380 of the fact of the technology.

00:21:37.240 And again,

00:21:39.740 because it's not,

00:21:41.200 the technology is not neutral.

00:21:43.400 You can't just take

00:21:44.700 the technology

00:21:46.280 of the administrative state

00:21:48.440 and then fill it

00:21:49.800 with good content

00:21:50.800 because like the television,

00:21:52.660 it remains the same.

00:21:54.100 It has its effects.

00:21:55.440 And when you look deeper

00:21:56.500 at the notion

00:21:57.460 and what technique

00:22:01.500 is all about,

00:22:02.960 it's very quickly apparent

00:22:04.360 that the fundamental basics

00:22:06.120 of technique itself

00:22:07.720 run hand in hand

00:22:10.220 with the ideas

00:22:11.720 of enlightenment liberalism.

00:22:15.180 This was a piece

00:22:16.040 NS Lyons did

00:22:17.280 a week or week and a half ago

00:22:19.500 on, you know,

00:22:21.020 the coming together.

00:22:21.740 Why do America

00:22:23.160 and the United States

00:22:24.680 and China

00:22:26.100 look so similar?

00:22:27.740 In a sense,

00:22:28.060 because then he argued

00:22:28.800 that both basically

00:22:30.000 their administrative states

00:22:31.840 are largely the same.

00:22:33.300 And because of that,

00:22:34.740 they have the same

00:22:36.200 internal logic.

00:22:37.700 So in a sense,

00:22:38.900 technique is really

00:22:40.580 the operating system,

00:22:43.900 we might say,

00:22:44.900 of the liberal West.

00:22:46.860 So in a sense,

00:22:48.080 it's a technology

00:22:49.420 really built

00:22:50.780 for liberalism,

00:22:52.360 by liberalism.

00:22:53.880 And so when you come into it,

00:22:55.020 this is why

00:22:55.880 with that saying goes,

00:23:00.140 you know,

00:23:00.440 any organization

00:23:01.460 that is not explicitly conservative

00:23:03.520 eventually becomes liberal.

00:23:05.060 And the reason why this happens

00:23:06.440 is because at its heart,

00:23:08.600 technique is essentially

00:23:10.460 a liberal idea.

00:23:12.380 And so

00:23:13.360 the basic hardware

00:23:16.320 of our society

00:23:17.540 is liberal.

00:23:18.320 So left to its own devices,

00:23:19.740 it's going to continually

00:23:20.960 become liberal,

00:23:21.700 more and more liberal.

00:23:22.540 So let's say

00:23:23.080 you plug in a policy.

00:23:24.400 What will happen

00:23:25.020 is over time,

00:23:26.500 every policy,

00:23:27.380 even if it's,

00:23:28.080 say,

00:23:28.200 a conservative policy,

00:23:29.260 will start to look

00:23:30.660 more the same.

00:23:31.860 And this is the same thing

00:23:32.880 like with television.

00:23:33.880 All television programming

00:23:35.180 ends up looking the same.

00:23:36.520 You know,

00:23:36.700 you get fast cuts,

00:23:37.880 different views,

00:23:38.780 music.

00:23:39.460 So all the television shows

00:23:41.500 begin to get made

00:23:43.940 the same way,

00:23:44.720 even if functionally

00:23:45.660 the content

00:23:46.220 is a little bit different.

00:23:47.180 They all,

00:23:48.020 in the end,

00:23:49.560 they work the same way.

00:23:51.780 You know,

00:23:52.260 all television programs

00:23:53.880 shorten your attention span.

00:23:55.480 They do all these things.

00:23:56.240 So in the end,

00:23:57.680 even if you had

00:23:58.600 quote unquote

00:23:59.840 based policies,

00:24:01.900 they would,

00:24:02.580 in the end,

00:24:04.160 become,

00:24:04.940 they would start to look

00:24:05.980 just like the policies

00:24:07.500 of the left over time.

00:24:08.720 And this is why

00:24:09.340 that sort of natural drift,

00:24:11.420 you know,

00:24:11.800 the whole idea of policy.

00:24:12.960 And then once you begin

00:24:14.380 to realize that,

00:24:15.580 that everyone,

00:24:16.800 the whole game

00:24:17.540 is basically played,

00:24:18.880 you know,

00:24:19.200 liberals

00:24:19.620 and Democrats,

00:24:23.020 you know,

00:24:23.400 quote unquote,

00:24:24.040 so-called conservatives,

00:24:25.220 Republicans,

00:24:25.880 they're all working

00:24:27.180 within this system.

00:24:28.420 So anywhere where you've got

00:24:29.480 think tanks,

00:24:30.240 policy groups,

00:24:30.940 all the rest,

00:24:31.700 they're all basically

00:24:33.200 extensions

00:24:34.160 of this same

00:24:35.340 bureaucratic system.

00:24:36.840 And this is what

00:24:37.340 Ellul argues that,

00:24:38.860 and he can get into that

00:24:40.460 more as well too,

00:24:41.440 like why you can't

00:24:43.160 actually reform

00:24:44.180 a bureaucracy.

00:24:45.920 And in his,

00:24:47.100 in his book,

00:24:48.880 Autoptiva Revolution,

00:24:50.140 Ellul just basically

00:24:50.860 comes and says it right,

00:24:52.220 outright,

00:24:53.140 that if you are concerned

00:24:54.780 at all about humanity,

00:24:55.960 he says that the state

00:24:57.460 is the enemy.

00:24:58.120 Now,

00:24:58.240 when he says the state,

00:24:59.900 basically he's looking

00:25:01.000 at the architecture

00:25:01.880 of technique.

00:25:03.200 And,

00:25:03.240 and so really,

00:25:04.820 if in the end,

00:25:06.260 if you want to deal

00:25:07.700 with the problem

00:25:08.660 that you,

00:25:10.000 you know,

00:25:10.460 pretty much have to

00:25:12.060 put an end to modernity.

00:25:14.100 And that's,

00:25:15.060 and that's kind of

00:25:15.800 the frightening black pill

00:25:17.540 that there,

00:25:18.600 if you say there's only

00:25:19.520 ways through,

00:25:20.960 that it's really only

00:25:22.500 in the demise

00:25:23.480 of the West

00:25:24.540 that,

00:25:25.260 you know,

00:25:25.400 you stamp out

00:25:26.280 the idea of,

00:25:27.720 of technique

00:25:28.600 everywhere.

00:25:30.760 Because if you don't,

00:25:32.140 it starts to come back

00:25:33.300 again and the logic of it.

00:25:34.580 And we can talk a little

00:25:35.300 bit more about that

00:25:36.320 as well too.

00:25:37.440 And,

00:25:37.620 and why that,

00:25:39.000 you know,

00:25:39.760 why,

00:25:40.140 if you don't get rid

00:25:41.380 of it,

00:25:41.740 you know,

00:25:42.000 root and core branch

00:25:43.300 right down to the,

00:25:44.320 the base and just,

00:25:45.260 you know,

00:25:46.080 throw it all on the

00:25:47.060 midden heap,

00:25:47.580 so to speak,

00:25:48.220 that it comes back.

00:25:50.020 And essentially it comes

00:25:50.720 back because it's a

00:25:51.500 powerful idea.

00:25:53.080 And,

00:25:53.180 yeah,

00:25:53.400 and yeah,

00:25:54.220 we'll,

00:25:54.540 we'll definitely want

00:25:55.640 to explore that

00:25:56.400 because I think,

00:25:56.980 you know,

00:25:57.560 like you said,

00:25:58.000 that's a,

00:25:58.260 that's a pretty big

00:25:58.900 implication of kind

00:26:00.600 of where this is going.

00:26:02.100 But before we get

00:26:02.700 into that guys,

00:26:03.260 real quick,

00:26:03.900 let's hear from ISI.

00:26:06.040 Universities today

00:26:06.740 aren't just neglecting

00:26:07.920 real education.

00:26:08.740 They're actively

00:26:09.420 undermining it

00:26:10.180 and we can't let them

00:26:10.980 get away with it.

00:26:11.920 America was made

00:26:12.820 for an educated

00:26:13.640 and engaged citizenry.

00:26:15.480 The Intercollegiate

00:26:16.220 Studies Institute

00:26:17.000 is here to help.

00:26:18.300 ISI offers programs

00:26:19.580 and opportunities

00:26:20.500 for conservative students

00:26:21.840 across the country.

00:26:23.480 ISI understands

00:26:24.420 that conservatives

00:26:25.160 and right of center

00:26:26.040 students feel isolated

00:26:27.500 on college campuses

00:26:28.560 and that you're often

00:26:29.620 fighting for your own

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00:26:31.760 dignity,

00:26:32.020 and future.

00:26:33.000 Through ISI,

00:26:34.360 you can learn about

00:26:35.020 what Russell Kirk

00:26:35.740 called the permanent things,

00:26:37.640 the philosophical

00:26:38.200 and political teachings

00:26:39.300 that shaped

00:26:40.000 and made

00:26:40.620 Western civilization great.

00:26:42.560 ISI offers many opportunities

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00:26:45.680 They have fellowships

00:26:46.460 at some of the nation's

00:26:47.360 top conservative publications

00:26:48.780 like National Review,

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00:26:52.760 If you're a graduate student,

00:26:54.040 ISI offers funding opportunities

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00:26:56.480 great generation

00:26:57.220 of college professors.

00:26:58.780 Through ISI,

00:26:59.640 you can work with

00:27:00.320 conservative thinkers

00:27:01.180 who are making a difference,

00:27:02.360 thinkers like Chris Ruffo,

00:27:04.080 who currently has

00:27:05.000 an ISI researcher

00:27:06.180 helping him with his book.

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00:27:24.680 of great Americans.

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00:27:27.060 go to ISI.org.

00:27:29.080 That's ISI.org.

00:27:32.360 All right.

00:27:33.020 So let's get into

00:27:33.840 a little more of a back and forth

00:27:35.140 because this is where

00:27:35.840 I actually want to pick

00:27:36.560 your brain on this.

00:27:37.460 I knew this is where

00:27:39.160 we were going to get to

00:27:40.260 having read your piece.

00:27:43.020 So I knew we were going

00:27:43.660 to get here.

00:27:44.340 But I think this is where things...

00:27:46.380 I think these are good insights.

00:27:47.920 I think they're important.

00:27:48.860 I think this is a critical point

00:27:51.800 that a lot of people miss

00:27:52.980 coming from a different direction

00:27:55.160 than I usually approach it.

00:27:56.560 So that's why I wanted

00:27:57.380 to bring this in.

00:27:58.260 But now I want to bring

00:27:59.320 in a few other thinkers

00:28:00.300 and compare and contrast here.

00:28:02.940 So the first thing

00:28:04.660 we want to look at,

00:28:05.600 you know,

00:28:05.800 you made the big statement there.

00:28:07.120 The only way this ends

00:28:08.200 is kind of the end of modernity,

00:28:10.120 which is a huge statement.

00:28:12.500 And I think there's truth there.

00:28:14.680 But I want to kind of

00:28:16.220 walk people into

00:28:17.580 what that means

00:28:19.080 and kind of where that comes from.

00:28:20.380 So for instance,

00:28:22.240 looking at Sam Francis

00:28:23.620 and Leviathan and his enemies,

00:28:24.980 he looks at kind of

00:28:28.480 the managerial state.

00:28:29.980 He looks at the managerial revolution

00:28:32.460 and the state it produced.

00:28:34.040 And he says basically

00:28:35.500 the reason that the right

00:28:36.740 was unable to really push back

00:28:40.580 against the left,

00:28:42.420 the reason that it just

00:28:43.180 kind of got assimilated

00:28:44.260 and the new rights attempts

00:28:45.840 to push back of it

00:28:46.600 just became, you know,

00:28:47.720 kind of Reaganism

00:28:48.620 and then Bushism

00:28:50.420 and, you know,

00:28:52.440 kind of standard GOP fare

00:28:54.120 is that it was not able

00:28:55.720 to address the underlying issues

00:28:58.000 of the managerial system

00:29:00.740 or technique here

00:29:01.960 as you're talking about

00:29:02.860 the production of technique.

00:29:05.400 So I guess the question is,

00:29:07.260 could any kind of

00:29:09.400 current understanding

00:29:10.780 of the American right

00:29:13.340 really have done that though?

00:29:15.220 Because it sounds like

00:29:15.800 you're saying is basically

00:29:16.740 just like all of modern liberalism

00:29:19.640 and all of its economic

00:29:21.060 and social, you know,

00:29:23.940 institutions basically

00:29:26.000 have to come apart

00:29:26.900 for any of this to go away?

00:29:29.500 Yeah.

00:29:29.720 And this is essentially

00:29:31.940 the point that Ellul makes

00:29:34.120 in one of the chapters

00:29:35.720 in The Political Illusion.

00:29:37.940 Now, and he walks you through it,

00:29:41.320 you know,

00:29:41.620 why the administrative state

00:29:43.680 can't be like reformed, right?

00:29:46.840 So, and it's even worse

00:29:50.020 than the fact

00:29:50.440 that it can't be reformed.

00:29:51.720 So Ellul calls,

00:29:53.400 and Schmidt recognized

00:29:54.400 this as well too,

00:29:55.520 that the administrative state

00:29:57.620 is the current power, right?

00:30:01.580 You know, we talk about politicians

00:30:03.460 and the political game

00:30:04.360 and I know you basically,

00:30:05.500 like the whole election thing

00:30:06.620 is a sham and so forth.

00:30:08.140 But what Ellul argues

00:30:09.920 is that it's actually backwards

00:30:12.460 from the way that we think, right?

00:30:15.020 So Ellul says that

00:30:16.980 the politicians are not there

00:30:19.680 to represent us

00:30:21.680 and provide oversight

00:30:23.160 to the bureaucracy.

00:30:24.880 He says the politicians

00:30:26.100 are there to represent

00:30:28.040 the bureaucracy to us

00:30:29.940 and to gain legitimacy

00:30:31.860 for the plans of experts, right?

00:30:34.660 Whether those come

00:30:35.240 in the form of policy papers

00:30:36.620 or things.

00:30:37.860 And here's what he says.

00:30:39.240 He says, okay,

00:30:39.840 so take your politician.

00:30:41.700 You think that your politician

00:30:42.940 is going to go to Washington

00:30:44.480 to reform the bureaucracy, right?

00:30:46.420 Going to drain the swamp, okay?

00:30:48.680 Your politician is right away

00:30:51.420 out of the gate divided

00:30:52.540 because he has to get elected, right?

00:30:54.380 So his focus is in part

00:30:56.340 always on staying in office.

00:30:58.220 He has to keep his voters happy.

00:30:59.840 He has to address that.

00:31:01.880 So first thing is,

00:31:03.080 is he's not full-time

00:31:05.220 an administrator.

00:31:06.900 And then secondly,

00:31:08.100 the skills that are required

00:31:10.000 to become a full-time administrator

00:31:12.160 are not the same skills

00:31:13.740 that are required

00:31:14.440 to become a full-time politician.

00:31:16.480 So chances are

00:31:17.540 he's going to be bad at it.

00:31:19.580 So he's going to get in

00:31:21.840 and reform the bureaucracy, right?

00:31:23.340 Okay, let's say he gets into office

00:31:24.720 and now he issues a bunch of orders

00:31:26.680 on how he wants things to be changed.

00:31:29.100 He sends out all the directives.

00:31:30.420 He's got a plan in his mind.

00:31:32.020 He sends those directives out

00:31:33.480 to all of the senior bureaucrats.

00:31:38.180 Well, what's going to happen

00:31:39.300 to those directives?

00:31:40.260 The senior bureaucrats

00:31:42.640 are going to look at those.

00:31:44.100 They're going to throw them

00:31:45.040 into committee.

00:31:46.040 There's going to be discussion.

00:31:47.800 And, you know,

00:31:48.700 maybe a few things emerge

00:31:51.200 on the other side

00:31:52.080 in line with, you know,

00:31:53.640 what the politician wants.

00:31:55.180 But chances are

00:31:55.840 they're just going to disappear

00:31:57.000 into the system, right?

00:31:59.280 There might be a few small changes

00:32:01.200 here and there,

00:32:02.000 but basically they'll just be absorbed.

00:32:04.600 And, you know,

00:32:05.920 there's just such a network

00:32:07.320 and nodes of decision-making committees,

00:32:10.360 study panels,

00:32:11.280 all the rest of it,

00:32:12.560 chains of command,

00:32:14.700 different groups here,

00:32:15.820 different groups there,

00:32:16.640 this bureau, that bureau,

00:32:17.600 they all have their little turf wars.

00:32:19.200 And these directives

00:32:20.600 just get kind of lost in there, right?

00:32:23.020 So then the smart politician says,

00:32:25.240 oh, you know what I need then?

00:32:26.660 When we go into office,

00:32:27.680 we're going to have

00:32:28.640 a really good group of people, right?

00:32:30.880 We're going to get together

00:32:32.000 a fantastic team.

00:32:33.860 We've got, let's say,

00:32:34.900 500 top qualified people

00:32:38.380 who are just real

00:32:39.600 hard-nosed administrators, right?

00:32:42.020 Well, who are these people?

00:32:44.320 And what if all?

00:32:45.080 So all of these

00:32:45.760 hard-nosed administrators,

00:32:47.200 they're probably going to need staffs.

00:32:49.880 And what you now then have

00:32:52.400 going into office

00:32:53.800 is you've created

00:32:55.080 your own mini bureaucracy

00:32:57.400 to battle

00:32:58.760 the existing administrative state.

00:33:01.220 So now you have

00:33:02.000 two battling administrative states.

00:33:04.780 So you've just basically

00:33:05.860 expanded the problem, right?

00:33:07.600 Well, OK, so let's say

00:33:08.860 you have, you know,

00:33:10.220 a policy or an advocacy group.

00:33:11.640 You're going to stay away

00:33:12.360 from the politicians.

00:33:13.180 You're going to have an advocate.

00:33:13.900 Well, OK, so you've got

00:33:15.100 an advocacy group.

00:33:16.820 This advocacy group,

00:33:18.180 you know, they lobby the government.

00:33:20.000 They get some of their policies.

00:33:21.280 Oh, you know,

00:33:22.400 the bureaucrats actually 0.97

00:33:23.260 like what they have to say.

00:33:24.820 So the bureaucrats say,

00:33:25.660 hey, why don't you come on board

00:33:27.100 and help us write the legislation

00:33:29.000 and develop the policies?

00:33:30.400 Now your advocacy

00:33:31.220 advocacy group

00:33:32.300 is part of the administrative state.

00:33:34.400 It just continues

00:33:35.140 to grow and grow.

00:33:36.080 And then let's just say,

00:33:37.540 for example,

00:33:38.040 you do get in there

00:33:39.480 and you can, you know,

00:33:41.000 streamline it,

00:33:42.080 cut it down,

00:33:43.640 enact a bunch of policies.

00:33:45.380 In the end,

00:33:46.420 all that you've done now

00:33:47.900 is make the administrative

00:33:49.960 state stronger

00:33:51.460 so that the next time,

00:33:53.020 let's say,

00:33:53.280 the administration shifts

00:33:54.340 and there's a different

00:33:55.060 group of people in,

00:33:56.080 they're ready to be,

00:33:58.500 to go with this new,

00:34:00.360 stronger,

00:34:00.840 streamlined administration.

00:34:02.400 And, you know,

00:34:03.680 chances are,

00:34:04.720 you know,

00:34:04.860 as we saw this

00:34:05.480 with the deep state,

00:34:06.280 because the administrative state

00:34:08.280 has its own agenda.

00:34:10.120 If your agenda

00:34:11.380 differs from that,

00:34:12.860 that agenda

00:34:13.800 as a politician,

00:34:14.940 when does fast grocery delivery

00:34:17.740 through Instacart matter most?

00:34:19.460 When your famous

00:34:20.280 grainy mustard potato salad

00:34:21.800 isn't so famous

00:34:22.800 without the grainy mustard.

00:34:24.320 When the barbecue's lit,

00:34:25.600 but there's nothing to grill.

00:34:26.980 When the in-laws decide that,

00:34:28.580 actually,

00:34:29.180 they will stay for dinner.

00:34:30.720 Instacart has all your groceries

00:34:32.140 covered this summer.

00:34:33.280 So download the app

00:34:34.280 and get delivery

00:34:35.020 in as fast as 60 minutes.

00:34:36.920 Plus, enjoy $0 delivery fees

00:34:38.860 on your first three orders.

00:34:40.620 Service fees exclusions

00:34:41.660 and terms apply.

00:34:42.900 Instacart.

00:34:43.720 Groceries that over-deliver.

00:34:45.940 From the state,

00:34:47.860 the state is now going to

00:34:48.860 actively begin

00:34:49.820 flexing against you,

00:34:52.180 actively undermining.

00:34:53.440 And this is what we saw

00:34:54.100 during the Trump administration,

00:34:55.400 that they took their hand,

00:34:56.660 the gloves came off.

00:34:58.320 And then during COVID again,

00:34:59.860 you know,

00:35:00.060 doubly so,

00:35:00.700 you know,

00:35:00.900 you'd have these bureaucrats 0.98

00:35:02.380 showing up with a microphone

00:35:03.420 and you're thinking,

00:35:04.000 and they're writing policy

00:35:05.060 and you're like,

00:35:05.660 well,

00:35:05.820 we didn't elect these people.

00:35:07.200 Like,

00:35:07.420 how did this policy get enacted?

00:35:09.740 And really what you are seeing

00:35:11.360 is,

00:35:12.040 you know,

00:35:12.380 past the veil of the system.

00:35:14.020 These guys are

00:35:14.880 writing all the policies anyways.

00:35:17.400 And they give them

00:35:18.320 to the politicians.

00:35:19.400 And during an election cycle,

00:35:20.640 you would,

00:35:20.860 the politician would have

00:35:21.680 his 10-point plan.

00:35:23.120 Well,

00:35:23.260 who writes all those 10-point plans?

00:35:25.080 It's the same experts

00:35:26.000 who staff,

00:35:26.640 you know,

00:35:26.920 staff the think tanks,

00:35:27.940 the advocacy groups

00:35:28.860 and the bureaucracies.

00:35:29.800 They might come from corporate life.

00:35:31.560 Well,

00:35:31.700 in corporate life,

00:35:32.360 what have you got there?

00:35:33.320 Well,

00:35:33.560 you've got bureaucracies

00:35:35.040 and committees

00:35:35.620 and policy plans

00:35:36.620 and so forth.

00:35:37.280 So it doesn't matter

00:35:38.300 wherever they come from.

00:35:40.240 They're all basically

00:35:41.400 part of the same system.

00:35:43.520 And you,

00:35:45.240 as a politician,

00:35:45.820 if you think that

00:35:46.560 you're going to get in there

00:35:47.620 and exercise oversight

00:35:51.060 on behalf of the voters,

00:35:52.360 are just kidding yourself

00:35:53.240 because really,

00:35:54.220 you need the bureaucracy

00:35:55.020 more than the bureaucracy

00:35:55.940 needs you.

00:35:56.660 And so in effect,

00:35:57.920 what happens is,

00:35:59.160 is that the politicians

00:36:00.880 become the front men

00:36:02.340 for warring factions

00:36:04.360 within the expert class.

00:36:06.420 And so Schmidt makes this point,

00:36:07.700 the difference between

00:36:08.360 a democracy

00:36:09.040 and a plebiscitory system.

00:36:11.880 So in a democracy,

00:36:13.260 you as the citizen

00:36:14.300 set the agenda

00:36:15.360 for the community,

00:36:16.940 for the country,

00:36:17.500 so forth, right?

00:36:18.340 In a plebiscite,

00:36:19.800 a plan is presented to you

00:36:21.660 and you vote yes or no

00:36:23.080 on that plan.

00:36:23.840 So we don't really live

00:36:24.840 in a democracy.

00:36:25.420 We live in

00:36:26.340 a plebiscitory voting

00:36:27.720 legitimacy system,

00:36:29.600 whatever,

00:36:29.880 however you would call it.

00:36:30.960 So we vote on these plans,

00:36:32.320 but it's not really democracy.

00:36:34.040 So what's happening

00:36:34.760 is that

00:36:35.600 the expert class

00:36:37.560 gives the politicians

00:36:38.860 their plans

00:36:39.760 and then we vote

00:36:41.080 on these plans.

00:36:41.660 So what you're seeing

00:36:42.600 in the battle

00:36:43.200 between politicians

00:36:44.380 is really conflicts

00:36:47.040 within the expert class.

00:36:49.240 So it's all a battle

00:36:50.120 within the administrative

00:36:51.480 state itself,

00:36:52.720 broadly speaking.

00:36:54.280 And so you're seeing,

00:36:55.040 yeah, go ahead.

00:36:55.740 So the thing

00:36:56.960 I want to break up here

00:36:58.200 because I think

00:36:58.580 this is all right.

00:36:59.400 I think this is all correct

00:37:00.920 about kind of

00:37:02.060 how our system

00:37:03.700 really functions.

00:37:05.100 It's these

00:37:06.040 larger than

00:37:09.860 any one human systems

00:37:11.800 that people are

00:37:12.500 conforming themselves to

00:37:13.880 rather than

00:37:14.760 the system's

00:37:15.540 not serving the people,

00:37:16.640 the people are

00:37:18.000 serving the system.

00:37:19.280 Every interaction

00:37:20.220 is really about

00:37:21.360 kind of these

00:37:22.040 warring factions

00:37:23.120 of these systems.

00:37:24.000 I think all of that

00:37:24.600 is correct.

00:37:25.740 The thing that I want

00:37:26.700 to understand

00:37:27.420 about Elul

00:37:28.880 is whether he sees

00:37:30.540 this as a manifestation

00:37:31.580 of our current system

00:37:34.140 or as a recurring issue

00:37:36.300 because I think

00:37:37.860 of something like

00:37:39.020 Spangler

00:37:39.720 and Oswald Spangler

00:37:41.040 describes these

00:37:42.680 different moments,

00:37:43.680 these different

00:37:44.160 phases

00:37:45.140 that each civilization

00:37:46.640 goes through.

00:37:48.200 And he talks about

00:37:49.300 how every high civilization

00:37:50.680 as it transitions

00:37:51.580 from its cultural

00:37:52.660 phase to its

00:37:53.300 civilizational phase.

00:37:54.380 It has to transfer

00:37:56.500 much of its

00:37:58.680 kind of natural

00:38:00.060 animating

00:38:01.160 metaphysical spirit,

00:38:02.900 its traditions,

00:38:03.640 its folk ways,

00:38:04.400 its ways of being,

00:38:05.680 has to move them

00:38:06.540 into bureaucracies

00:38:08.380 and institutions

00:38:09.460 because basically

00:38:11.000 its civilization

00:38:12.760 is expanded

00:38:13.680 beyond its original

00:38:15.440 reach

00:38:16.200 and those

00:38:17.120 that have been

00:38:18.020 added to civilization

00:38:19.060 are too far away

00:38:20.520 from kind of

00:38:21.020 the original formation

00:38:22.160 and so the only way

00:38:23.200 to continue this

00:38:24.080 is to bureaucratize

00:38:25.280 it,

00:38:25.600 is to expand it,

00:38:27.160 is to turn it

00:38:29.000 into process.

00:38:30.660 And when this happens,

00:38:32.920 basically,

00:38:33.600 eventually,

00:38:34.660 the process

00:38:35.360 becomes the point

00:38:36.160 and no longer

00:38:36.960 kind of the

00:38:38.660 continuance

00:38:39.840 of those traditions,

00:38:41.260 those ideals,

00:38:42.160 those goals,

00:38:42.820 those kind of things.

00:38:43.560 And so the bureaucracy

00:38:45.040 shapes the thing

00:38:45.940 and runs away with it.

00:38:47.260 And this is a process

00:38:48.340 he describes as

00:38:49.400 kind of, again,

00:38:50.560 occurring over and over

00:38:51.920 cyclically throughout history.

00:38:53.980 So are we just looking

00:38:57.120 at the latest iteration

00:38:58.340 of something

00:38:59.000 that is a historic inevitability

00:39:00.700 or is there something

00:39:01.800 very particular

00:39:02.960 about kind of

00:39:04.160 the current liberal,

00:39:05.320 democratic,

00:39:06.020 bureaucratic

00:39:06.480 kind of paradigm

00:39:07.300 that we need

00:39:09.260 to understand here?

00:39:11.040 Yeah,

00:39:11.180 so I think

00:39:11.720 it would be the latter.

00:39:13.040 that, you know,

00:39:13.700 you're right,

00:39:14.400 it's like empires

00:39:15.420 and great civilizations

00:39:16.540 rise at a certain

00:39:17.460 point in time

00:39:18.400 you need,

00:39:20.000 you know,

00:39:20.220 as they scale up,

00:39:21.820 that you need

00:39:22.940 something like

00:39:23.880 a bureaucracy.

00:39:25.220 And the difference

00:39:26.340 in the,

00:39:29.120 what we might call

00:39:29.760 an old style

00:39:30.500 of bureaucracy

00:39:31.020 in the new

00:39:32.440 sort of technical

00:39:33.120 system that we have,

00:39:35.100 and the reason

00:39:35.800 why the technical

00:39:36.420 system replaced it

00:39:37.660 is in many ways

00:39:39.940 the old system

00:39:41.260 was based upon

00:39:42.820 persons.

00:39:43.440 And I wish

00:39:44.380 I could find

00:39:45.360 where the quote

00:39:46.720 or the reference

00:39:47.280 was,

00:39:47.860 but there was

00:39:49.380 a,

00:39:51.600 there was a period

00:39:52.920 where Roman

00:39:55.340 administrators,

00:39:56.580 as they took

00:39:57.580 the position,

00:39:58.420 would have to

00:39:58.940 declare how

00:40:00.720 they would plan

00:40:01.660 to run

00:40:02.600 during their time

00:40:04.180 in office.

00:40:04.960 And so every

00:40:05.980 Roman official,

00:40:07.120 as they came in,

00:40:08.640 had their own

00:40:09.480 way of doing

00:40:10.160 things, right?

00:40:10.780 And so even

00:40:12.300 in the,

00:40:12.680 in the British

00:40:13.140 system prior

00:40:14.560 to,

00:40:14.880 and then you

00:40:15.300 would say

00:40:15.660 in like the

00:40:16.020 Napoleonic

00:40:16.660 government,

00:40:17.280 so you had

00:40:17.900 administrators,

00:40:19.400 right,

00:40:19.880 before,

00:40:20.220 like the

00:40:20.460 Napoleonic

00:40:20.880 government

00:40:21.180 before,

00:40:22.220 or the French 0.81

00:40:23.140 government

00:40:23.380 before Napoleon,

00:40:24.100 because Napoleon

00:40:24.540 was the first,

00:40:25.340 you know,

00:40:25.640 technocrat really,

00:40:26.980 is that the,

00:40:30.400 the way things

00:40:32.320 were done

00:40:33.140 were largely

00:40:34.140 done in the

00:40:36.440 way that the

00:40:37.340 chief officials

00:40:38.100 wanted them to be

00:40:38.940 done.

00:40:39.420 There wasn't

00:40:39.940 necessarily the

00:40:41.120 same level of

00:40:42.080 standardization,

00:40:43.500 there wasn't

00:40:43.980 necessarily the

00:40:44.720 same level of

00:40:45.400 abstraction,

00:40:46.460 and you learn

00:40:47.940 various tasks,

00:40:48.820 like say clerking,

00:40:49.620 for example,

00:40:50.320 you learn clerking

00:40:51.280 and accounting

00:40:51.880 and so forth

00:40:52.540 on the job

00:40:53.700 by,

00:40:54.440 by it was,

00:40:55.020 you,

00:40:55.220 you picked it up

00:40:56.060 and you were

00:40:56.480 taught with it,

00:40:57.320 you know,

00:40:57.520 sort of the,

00:40:58.040 the,

00:40:58.320 the culture of it,

00:40:59.200 right?

00:40:59.460 So the systems

00:41:00.360 weren't nearly

00:41:00.840 abstract.

00:41:01.500 And for the

00:41:02.800 bourgeoisie class,

00:41:03.700 as they were

00:41:04.200 beginning to,

00:41:04.740 to flex and,

00:41:06.160 and engage you,

00:41:07.880 you know,

00:41:08.060 as you mechanize

00:41:09.000 everything,

00:41:09.920 part of the

00:41:10.400 reason why the

00:41:11.140 old monarchical

00:41:12.520 system,

00:41:13.220 you know,

00:41:13.440 based upon

00:41:14.340 personages in

00:41:16.700 the administration

00:41:17.540 is that it

00:41:18.440 wasn't efficient

00:41:20.020 enough.

00:41:20.540 It wasn't,

00:41:21.640 you know,

00:41:21.800 you couldn't

00:41:22.300 guarantee the

00:41:23.160 same level of

00:41:24.040 consistent outcomes.

00:41:25.260 And so even

00:41:26.340 though,

00:41:27.060 you know,

00:41:27.340 these administrations

00:41:28.260 in the past

00:41:28.760 could be very

00:41:29.380 good if staffed

00:41:30.520 by very talented

00:41:31.340 people,

00:41:32.660 they still

00:41:33.420 weren't consistent.

00:41:34.140 So what happens

00:41:35.120 is,

00:41:35.380 is then you

00:41:35.840 replace this

00:41:37.380 person-centered,

00:41:38.880 cultured center,

00:41:39.920 embedded way

00:41:41.040 of doing a

00:41:41.960 bureaucratic

00:41:42.440 administration.

00:41:43.580 And this

00:41:43.960 can have many

00:41:45.860 of the

00:41:46.080 characteristics of

00:41:47.100 your bureaucracy,

00:41:48.100 you know,

00:41:48.200 get little petty

00:41:48.640 fiefdoms and all

00:41:49.640 the rest of it,

00:41:50.240 you know what I mean?

00:41:50.680 There are some of

00:41:51.340 the similar

00:41:51.700 characteristics,

00:41:52.480 but what really

00:41:53.320 takes it to the

00:41:54.100 next level is

00:41:55.440 this,

00:41:56.040 the technical

00:41:56.740 system.

00:41:57.580 So if,

00:41:58.220 you know,

00:41:58.480 you could,

00:41:59.060 you could run

00:42:00.460 an empire,

00:42:01.940 but guaranteed,

00:42:02.880 one of the things

00:42:03.320 that Ellul notes

00:42:04.320 in Autopsy

00:42:07.560 of a Revolution

00:42:08.140 is that if you

00:42:09.100 got rid of

00:42:09.500 the technical

00:42:09.940 systems,

00:42:11.100 everything would

00:42:11.920 be degraded.

00:42:12.560 So your ability

00:42:13.100 to make money,

00:42:14.320 the efficiency

00:42:14.860 of the system,

00:42:15.880 but you would

00:42:16.580 have to go back

00:42:17.560 to a kind

00:42:18.600 of person-based

00:42:20.040 sort of system,

00:42:23.140 almost what you

00:42:24.020 would call like

00:42:24.620 a sort of a

00:42:25.100 patronage and

00:42:25.760 spoils type thing.

00:42:26.680 So it'd just be

00:42:27.080 sort of the

00:42:27.420 old boys network,

00:42:28.340 right?

00:42:28.660 And so you would,

00:42:29.880 and then when

00:42:30.600 the old boys

00:42:31.140 came in,

00:42:32.100 they would just

00:42:32.660 kind of do,

00:42:33.200 everyone would

00:42:33.620 sort of do

00:42:34.020 things their way.

00:42:34.980 But one of the

00:42:35.720 things that obviates

00:42:36.360 against this,

00:42:36.960 right,

00:42:37.120 is,

00:42:37.360 you know,

00:42:37.500 you have

00:42:37.780 computer systems

00:42:38.660 now,

00:42:38.960 you have policies,

00:42:39.520 you almost

00:42:40.080 can't go back

00:42:42.500 that to that

00:42:43.160 older style

00:42:44.040 without,

00:42:45.660 I mean,

00:42:46.040 like,

00:42:46.420 how do you go

00:42:46.960 back to a thing

00:42:47.640 where stuff is

00:42:49.120 embedded and it's

00:42:49.800 passed on person

00:42:50.540 to person?

00:42:51.780 Everything nowadays

00:42:52.580 is through policy

00:42:53.460 and training

00:42:54.040 and systems,

00:42:54.740 right?

00:42:54.980 So in many ways,

00:42:56.840 the system dictates

00:42:57.780 how you do things,

00:42:58.700 but yeah,

00:42:59.420 it can be done.

00:43:00.940 And so there are

00:43:01.760 similarities and

00:43:02.600 contrast,

00:43:02.880 but the sort

00:43:03.560 of the jet fuel

00:43:04.440 that really makes

00:43:05.540 bureaucracy sing,

00:43:07.200 so to speak,

00:43:08.460 in the modern world

00:43:09.460 and really allowed

00:43:10.200 the West,

00:43:11.200 the post-industrial West

00:43:12.440 to explode the way

00:43:14.200 it was,

00:43:15.080 was the power of

00:43:16.100 harnessing technique

00:43:17.020 and applying it to

00:43:18.420 what was before

00:43:19.520 a very inefficient,

00:43:20.900 lumpy,

00:43:22.000 and,

00:43:22.400 you know,

00:43:23.240 human-centered

00:43:24.100 bureaucratic process,

00:43:25.180 which could be just

00:43:26.120 as Kafkaesque,

00:43:27.580 but lapped sort of

00:43:28.620 the jet fuel power

00:43:29.780 of technique.

00:43:31.180 So Nick Land

00:43:33.080 sees this problem,

00:43:35.480 right?

00:43:35.780 He's one of many

00:43:37.280 who's addressed this,

00:43:38.220 and for him,

00:43:39.640 basically,

00:43:40.560 the kind of

00:43:41.060 the self-exciting

00:43:42.040 cybernetic feedback loop

00:43:43.760 of this auto-improving

00:43:46.160 technique

00:43:46.860 is unstoppable,

00:43:49.920 right?

00:43:50.220 He says that

00:43:51.160 this is where

00:43:51.780 the only way out

00:43:52.880 is through

00:43:53.220 comes from,

00:43:54.300 right?

00:43:54.580 Yeah.

00:43:54.760 this is going

00:43:55.720 to run away.

00:43:57.400 I tend to agree

00:43:58.900 with him.

00:43:59.640 Okay.

00:44:00.560 Yeah.

00:44:00.840 So you think

00:44:01.660 Land is right

00:44:02.320 that this is not

00:44:03.020 a process

00:44:04.660 that can be

00:44:05.300 arrested

00:44:05.800 by, like,

00:44:06.880 human will.

00:44:07.500 We're not going

00:44:07.900 to say,

00:44:08.520 okay,

00:44:08.800 everybody,

00:44:09.620 we're dismantling

00:44:10.580 these massive

00:44:11.180 bureaucracies.

00:44:12.160 We're all going

00:44:12.540 to focus on

00:44:13.300 more embedded

00:44:14.680 and personable

00:44:17.180 bureaucracies,

00:44:19.260 and we're

00:44:20.400 just going

00:44:20.720 to all scale

00:44:21.220 back our style

00:44:22.060 of living

00:44:22.640 to accommodate

00:44:24.840 with kind of

00:44:25.800 this new

00:44:26.160 understanding

00:44:26.560 of how

00:44:26.900 humanity

00:44:27.340 should be

00:44:27.680 organized.

00:44:28.580 Well,

00:44:28.740 yeah,

00:44:28.960 and really,

00:44:30.300 there's two

00:44:31.280 things that

00:44:32.000 would obviate

00:44:33.320 against it,

00:44:33.740 and one of

00:44:34.620 these Elul

00:44:35.160 talks about

00:44:35.840 in the

00:44:36.980 political illusion.

00:44:38.420 He says we

00:44:39.100 really live

00:44:39.660 under the illusion

00:44:40.380 that we have

00:44:41.000 political choices,

00:44:42.180 right?

00:44:42.440 So the example

00:44:43.620 is tanks.

00:44:46.120 If your enemy

00:44:46.760 has tanks

00:44:47.520 or the big

00:44:50.080 one now

00:44:50.400 is nuclear

00:44:50.900 weapons,

00:44:51.380 right?

00:44:51.760 If you don't

00:44:52.860 have the same

00:44:53.580 level of

00:44:54.020 technical

00:44:54.560 weaponry

00:44:56.140 as your

00:44:57.780 opponent,

00:44:58.780 you run

00:45:00.240 the risk

00:45:00.840 of being

00:45:01.480 overrun.

00:45:02.880 So there

00:45:03.200 is a whole

00:45:03.700 range of

00:45:04.060 that.

00:45:04.340 And then

00:45:04.840 the natural

00:45:05.860 thing,

00:45:06.140 I mean,

00:45:06.380 Elul was

00:45:07.560 also a

00:45:08.300 Christian,

00:45:08.780 and Elul

00:45:09.120 understood

00:45:09.600 that people

00:45:10.640 are sinful.

00:45:11.240 If there's

00:45:11.520 money to be

00:45:12.080 made,

00:45:13.080 a technology

00:45:13.740 will happen

00:45:14.580 no matter

00:45:15.000 how much

00:45:16.480 the evil

00:45:17.460 of that

00:45:17.860 technology

00:45:18.640 outweigh

00:45:19.080 the goods,

00:45:19.840 right?

00:45:20.100 So there

00:45:21.640 is this

00:45:21.940 thing,

00:45:22.120 as long

00:45:22.460 as it's

00:45:22.760 there,

00:45:23.300 and it's

00:45:23.740 almost like

00:45:24.200 why it's

00:45:25.100 like biting

00:45:25.600 off the

00:45:26.020 apple in

00:45:26.400 the Garden

00:45:26.780 of Eden.

00:45:27.320 Once you've

00:45:28.080 opened that

00:45:29.000 up,

00:45:29.700 you now have

00:45:30.260 to deal

00:45:30.700 with its

00:45:31.360 reality,

00:45:31.840 the power

00:45:32.580 that technique

00:45:33.180 gives you

00:45:33.780 to control

00:45:34.860 society,

00:45:35.860 to harness

00:45:36.480 human resources,

00:45:38.000 and to

00:45:38.680 make money,

00:45:39.840 you know,

00:45:40.920 and to

00:45:41.460 exercise

00:45:41.920 control.

00:45:42.780 All of

00:45:43.120 these things

00:45:43.520 have to be

00:45:43.820 done.

00:45:43.900 Because if

00:45:44.200 people can

00:45:45.100 exercise

00:45:45.500 control with

00:45:46.180 technique,

00:45:46.940 they will.

00:45:47.840 So there's

00:45:48.160 that kind

00:45:48.580 of fact

00:45:49.020 that you

00:45:49.460 have to

00:45:50.760 deal with

00:45:51.140 it at

00:45:51.580 some level.

00:45:53.200 If your

00:45:53.720 enemy has

00:45:54.880 technology and

00:45:55.640 technique,

00:45:56.440 unless you

00:45:56.900 want to be

00:45:57.160 run over by

00:45:57.660 your enemy,

00:45:58.200 you don't

00:45:58.560 have a

00:45:58.820 choice,

00:45:59.280 you've

00:45:59.640 got to

00:45:59.840 embrace

00:46:00.100 technique.

00:46:01.340 And then

00:46:01.780 on the

00:46:02.340 other side,

00:46:03.340 in his

00:46:04.800 book,

00:46:05.040 Autopsy of

00:46:05.560 a Revolution,

00:46:06.700 Ellul makes

00:46:07.300 the argument

00:46:08.000 that revolts

00:46:09.680 have always

00:46:10.360 been with

00:46:10.760 us.

00:46:11.020 So you've

00:46:11.520 always had

00:46:12.040 coups,

00:46:12.680 you've

00:46:12.820 always had

00:46:13.260 revolts,

00:46:14.540 but the

00:46:15.480 difference

00:46:16.000 between a

00:46:16.440 coup and

00:46:17.060 a revolt

00:46:17.480 and a

00:46:18.000 revolution,

00:46:18.640 so beginning

00:46:19.000 with the

00:46:19.380 French and

00:46:19.740 the American

00:46:20.140 revolutions,

00:46:21.560 the difference,

00:46:22.860 and this

00:46:23.240 sort of began

00:46:23.920 the revolutionary

00:46:24.600 period,

00:46:25.660 is that what

00:46:26.140 makes a

00:46:26.720 revolution a

00:46:27.420 revolution is

00:46:28.520 that it

00:46:29.100 has a

00:46:30.220 plan.

00:46:31.720 So with

00:46:33.280 a revolt,

00:46:33.900 there's a

00:46:34.200 series of

00:46:34.680 grievances.

00:46:35.560 So you

00:46:35.880 rebel because

00:46:36.980 of your

00:46:37.340 grievances.

00:46:38.100 So the

00:46:38.240 grievances may

00:46:39.080 or may not

00:46:39.480 get addressed,

00:46:40.580 your revolt

00:46:40.880 gets put

00:46:41.340 down,

00:46:41.820 so forth

00:46:42.160 and so

00:46:42.420 forth,

00:46:42.700 right?

00:46:43.180 But what

00:46:43.660 happens with

00:46:44.160 a revolution

00:46:44.920 is that then

00:46:46.840 there's a

00:46:47.200 plan that

00:46:47.960 is put in

00:46:48.380 place.

00:46:48.700 And so

00:46:48.920 the revolution

00:46:50.240 requires

00:46:51.300 managers.

00:46:52.980 And so

00:46:53.280 right away

00:46:54.540 what happens

00:46:55.020 with the

00:46:55.760 American

00:46:56.080 revolution?

00:46:56.720 So your

00:46:57.060 revolt is

00:46:57.720 successful.

00:46:59.340 Well,

00:46:59.640 what you do

00:47:00.260 then is

00:47:01.480 you put in

00:47:02.640 place a

00:47:03.080 new system.

00:47:03.900 So you

00:47:04.220 develop a

00:47:05.060 rationalized

00:47:06.040 functioning of

00:47:07.060 government and

00:47:07.440 society.

00:47:08.060 You have your

00:47:08.740 constitution and

00:47:09.660 so forth,

00:47:10.100 and it's put

00:47:10.480 in place,

00:47:10.840 but it's

00:47:11.080 a simple

00:47:11.640 technology put

00:47:12.980 in place by

00:47:14.420 bourgeoisie

00:47:15.780 managers who

00:47:17.020 have the skill

00:47:17.940 to take an

00:47:18.760 idea, a

00:47:19.820 plan, and

00:47:20.580 turn it into

00:47:21.500 a functioning

00:47:22.240 reality, right?

00:47:23.500 So every

00:47:25.000 revolution now

00:47:25.960 requires, to

00:47:27.260 become a

00:47:27.700 revolution requires

00:47:28.660 managers.

00:47:30.100 So you might

00:47:30.980 say to yourself,

00:47:31.460 well, let's

00:47:31.940 have a revolution

00:47:32.720 and let's

00:47:33.160 overturn this

00:47:33.940 current system

00:47:34.660 that we have

00:47:35.380 and we'll put

00:47:36.840 in place, like

00:47:37.300 you say, a new

00:47:37.820 system that's all

00:47:38.560 embedded, it's

00:47:39.500 homey, you

00:47:40.100 know, community,

00:47:40.980 small shops and

00:47:42.000 everything.

00:47:43.260 The problem is

00:47:43.740 you can't do

00:47:44.400 that because the

00:47:45.080 moment you have

00:47:45.580 a plan, you

00:47:46.380 need managers to

00:47:48.320 enact that plan.

00:47:48.980 As soon as you

00:47:49.400 have managers, you

00:47:50.180 have technique, and

00:47:50.900 as soon as you

00:47:51.220 have technique, the

00:47:51.860 system comes back

00:47:52.620 again.

00:47:53.540 So really, as Nick

00:47:54.700 Lance says, the

00:47:55.180 only really way, and

00:47:56.460 this is why for me

00:47:57.280 increasingly I say

00:47:58.620 to people, I said

00:47:59.400 the option that we

00:48:01.800 need to realize is

00:48:02.800 that, and this is

00:48:03.960 sort of that, you

00:48:04.740 know, coming from a

00:48:05.300 Christian perspective

00:48:05.980 being in the

00:48:06.700 world but not of

00:48:07.520 the world, that

00:48:08.680 really, you know,

00:48:09.820 maybe the

00:48:11.440 Benedict option but

00:48:13.280 based, as somebody

00:48:14.080 said to me a while

00:48:15.020 back, is that we

00:48:16.740 as people on the

00:48:18.640 right need to

00:48:19.340 really seriously

00:48:20.140 begin thinking

00:48:20.960 about, okay, we

00:48:22.640 can't take the

00:48:23.400 system down, but we

00:48:24.740 can start to

00:48:26.320 build a system

00:48:27.260 or develop

00:48:27.940 communities in

00:48:30.880 which our approach

00:48:31.780 to technology is

00:48:33.280 both realistic

00:48:34.540 but also

00:48:35.880 intentional, and

00:48:37.480 that we can

00:48:37.920 create both a

00:48:38.680 refuge and a

00:48:40.200 contrast to the

00:48:41.260 system, and

00:48:42.160 hopefully that when

00:48:43.100 the whole thing

00:48:43.660 does crash, and

00:48:44.720 it will, because,

00:48:46.920 you know, we keep

00:48:48.980 moving from like an 0.88

00:48:49.840 old jalopy that

00:48:50.780 will run forever to

00:48:51.940 wanting to build a

00:48:52.740 Formula One race

00:48:53.480 car, but if you've

00:48:54.040 watched Formula One

00:48:54.760 racing, how long

00:48:56.520 do those cars last,

00:48:57.880 right?

00:48:58.520 You know, it's

00:48:58.880 between an old

00:48:59.840 logistics network,

00:49:04.820 so you have a

00:49:05.320 global system of,

00:49:06.880 you know, parts

00:49:08.100 of it, it used to

00:49:08.580 have warehouses, and

00:49:09.500 it was lumpy or

00:49:10.200 whatever, too, but

00:49:10.720 now you have just-in-time

00:49:12.200 delivery, so you have

00:49:13.440 this race car that

00:49:15.620 we've built, while you

00:49:16.580 have the COVID

00:49:17.140 shutdowns, and all of

00:49:18.140 a sudden, everybody

00:49:18.620 realizes that, you

00:49:19.740 know, we're basically,

00:49:20.900 you know, a couple

00:49:21.560 steps away from

00:49:22.360 crashing the whole

00:49:23.160 system, and all of

00:49:25.340 a sudden, for many

00:49:25.940 people who think

00:49:26.620 about these things,

00:49:27.120 like, I could have

00:49:27.580 told you that, yeah,

00:49:28.300 well, that's what

00:49:28.740 would happen if you

00:49:29.500 shut down the

00:49:30.020 whole, that's what

00:49:30.620 I said to my

00:49:30.960 friends, like, I

00:49:31.600 said, you can't

00:49:32.340 shut an economy

00:49:33.480 down, this thing

00:49:34.200 has to keep

00:49:34.680 moving, because all

00:49:36.860 of these cascading

00:49:37.680 system failures will

00:49:38.640 just begin to sort

00:49:39.380 of pile up on

00:49:40.160 you, right?

00:49:41.680 And so, eventually,

00:49:43.040 the system, this

00:49:43.760 race car that we

00:49:44.500 built, it will, it

00:49:46.780 becomes increasingly

00:49:48.060 fragile, and

00:49:49.240 eventually, it will

00:49:50.360 begin to collapse,

00:49:51.400 and there will be

00:49:51.960 something that will

00:49:52.620 pressure it, and

00:49:53.300 then I think it's

00:49:54.460 beholden upon us

00:49:55.680 as conservatives

00:49:56.060 who see this to

00:49:58.240 already be ready,

00:49:59.500 and I think, you

00:50:00.400 know, because for

00:50:01.580 things that I've

00:50:02.100 noted in other

00:50:02.620 pieces, this system

00:50:06.180 of technique, as

00:50:07.880 Heidegger says,

00:50:08.600 and frames us,

00:50:09.660 right?

00:50:09.920 So, you know, you

00:50:11.200 want to find a

00:50:11.940 place where we're

00:50:13.620 not alienated from

00:50:14.820 the world and from

00:50:16.020 each other, because

00:50:16.480 that's the thing that

00:50:17.080 technique does, it

00:50:17.900 alienates us from

00:50:19.040 real life, real

00:50:20.680 encounters with the

00:50:21.520 world, and create

00:50:23.220 these refuges where 0.96

00:50:24.440 we can encounter

00:50:25.640 each other, where we

00:50:26.520 can encounter the

00:50:27.380 world, and we can

00:50:28.980 rediscover a proper

00:50:31.140 relationship with our

00:50:32.360 tools.

00:50:32.760 Now, we might still

00:50:33.520 need tanks, because 0.95

00:50:34.980 the regime has

00:50:35.700 tanks, but hopefully

00:50:37.580 our relationship with

00:50:39.140 our tanks is

00:50:39.920 different than the

00:50:40.540 relationship that the

00:50:41.960 regime has, if that

00:50:42.940 makes sense.

00:50:43.860 Yeah, so to clarify,

00:50:44.780 because I think a lot

00:50:45.320 of people hear this,

00:50:46.100 and they're like, so

00:50:46.620 we have to go back to

00:50:47.340 the Stone Age, we've

00:50:48.500 got to start, you

00:50:49.160 know, we've got to

00:50:49.560 start, you know, carving

00:50:51.020 everything back, you

00:50:51.960 know, out of whale

00:50:52.500 bone again, or

00:50:53.300 something.

00:50:53.720 They hear this, and

00:50:56.420 they say, you know, so

00:50:57.580 the only answer is to

00:50:58.760 just, you know, is to

00:50:59.880 go full Uncle Ted, and

00:51:02.040 you know, go off the

00:51:02.880 reservation, and live

00:51:04.060 in a shack, or

00:51:04.580 something, but it

00:51:05.600 sounds like what you're

00:51:06.220 saying, and this is

00:51:06.880 what I've heard from

00:51:07.600 many people, I think

00:51:08.780 of, you know, I think

00:51:10.360 of people like

00:51:11.420 Alexander Dugan, who

00:51:12.560 talk about kind of

00:51:13.400 this post-liberal

00:51:15.240 future, kind of this

00:51:16.360 post-modernity, you're

00:51:18.360 going to end up in a

00:51:19.280 scenario where it's

00:51:21.480 not that these things

00:51:22.180 don't exist, it's not

00:51:23.420 that technique is not

00:51:25.220 still going to exist,

00:51:26.180 that the technology

00:51:27.220 and these things won't

00:51:28.000 still be around, but we

00:51:29.500 will have, those that

00:51:31.020 have survived it, those

00:51:32.040 who are flourishing

00:51:33.280 post kind of the

00:51:34.500 collapse of this

00:51:35.720 generally far too

00:51:37.220 spread logistical

00:51:37.880 network that will come

00:51:38.920 apart eventually, like

00:51:40.180 those that flourish

00:51:40.880 after it will be those

00:51:41.880 that understand how to

00:51:43.860 take what exists now

00:51:45.560 and form a more

00:51:46.640 healthy relationship

00:51:47.620 with it, have a

00:51:48.600 kind of take the

00:51:51.140 lessons of liberalism,

00:51:52.400 take the experiences,

00:51:53.420 take those on

00:51:54.360 board, they won't

00:51:54.860 suddenly disappear, but

00:51:56.620 they'll be something that

00:51:57.500 are transformed by kind

00:51:59.140 of a new way in which

00:52:00.760 people can relate to

00:52:01.620 these technologies, these

00:52:02.880 social organizations, these

00:52:04.100 understandings.

00:52:05.460 Well, and that's the kind

00:52:06.060 of thing where you

00:52:07.540 almost kind of could see

00:52:09.500 sort of a way that, you

00:52:11.100 know, as communities

00:52:11.940 begin to re-embed

00:52:14.140 and things become

00:52:17.080 organic again, that

00:52:18.780 because you now are on

00:52:20.340 the other side of taking

00:52:21.720 a bite of the apple, you

00:52:23.300 know, you could see that,

00:52:24.000 you know, if somebody

00:52:24.760 suggests technical

00:52:26.120 thinking that it becomes

00:52:27.320 a kind of taboo, right?

00:52:29.240 And like, oh yeah, no,

00:52:29.920 no, no, we don't, we

00:52:30.500 don't, we don't do that.

00:52:31.720 That's not the way we do

00:52:32.700 things.

00:52:32.880 We do not make mines in

00:52:34.120 the, in the, or we do

00:52:35.100 not make machines in the

00:52:36.700 image of man, right?

00:52:37.600 But, but the other way

00:52:38.340 around, we don't make,

00:52:39.860 we don't form people's

00:52:40.920 minds to the image of

00:52:41.800 machinery.

00:52:42.700 That's right.

00:52:43.060 We don't do it that way

00:52:44.080 here.

00:52:44.660 You know, that's just,

00:52:45.340 well, why not?

00:52:46.160 Well, well, we, you

00:52:47.760 know, let me tell you

00:52:48.320 the old stories, right?

00:52:49.820 Of, of days, right?

00:52:51.120 And so you, you can

00:52:52.160 picture how some of

00:52:53.000 that, that will, I

00:52:53.760 think, you know, Paul

00:52:54.360 Kingsnorth has done

00:52:55.280 some, some imaging

00:52:56.360 along that way and

00:52:57.260 storytelling of, of

00:52:58.180 looking back, but that,

00:52:59.960 that's kind of, you

00:53:01.560 know, where, where

00:53:02.620 we're, you know, where

00:53:03.900 you, when you look at it

00:53:04.940 thoughtfully that this

00:53:06.260 is where you've got to

00:53:06.960 go.

00:53:07.240 So you have to prepare

00:53:08.720 yourself and really what

00:53:09.920 the regime thrives on

00:53:11.320 right now and sustains

00:53:12.700 it is its ability to

00:53:13.740 produce prosperity.

00:53:15.120 Right.

00:53:15.280 And so that will

00:53:15.840 probably be the stress

00:53:16.880 point is as soon as

00:53:18.400 they cannot provide the

00:53:19.680 prosperity for enough

00:53:20.520 people.

00:53:20.820 And that means for

00:53:22.160 conservatives, you have

00:53:23.480 to be readying yourself

00:53:25.260 to live in a world that

00:53:27.280 is not as prosperous as

00:53:28.720 the one that we have

00:53:30.400 now.

00:53:30.640 Now that doesn't mean

00:53:31.480 that it won't be as

00:53:32.560 sad.

00:53:32.880 It might actually be more

00:53:34.180 existentially satisfying

00:53:36.480 than the one we have

00:53:37.320 now.

00:53:37.640 It's just, it won't be

00:53:38.360 as comfortable.

00:53:39.320 It'll be a lot harder

00:53:40.160 work, but you will be

00:53:41.880 closer to people, all of

00:53:44.000 these things.

00:53:44.440 Right.

00:53:44.580 So it's, it's, you

00:53:47.320 know, it's an interesting

00:53:47.920 thing when you look at

00:53:48.920 it, Ellul tries to

00:53:50.300 always be as hopeful as

00:53:51.380 possible.

00:53:51.740 But the, the, you

00:53:53.660 know, the people have

00:53:54.580 observed that his

00:53:55.440 writing has sort of two

00:53:56.420 sides.

00:53:56.880 They're his, his kind of,

00:53:58.180 you know, public

00:53:59.040 scholarship and then kind

00:54:00.440 of his, his Christian

00:54:01.740 writings.

00:54:02.060 And you almost have to

00:54:03.120 take the two of them

00:54:03.880 together.

00:54:05.020 So you have to really,

00:54:06.580 you have to also

00:54:07.500 understand that, you

00:54:08.940 know, what really allows

00:54:10.440 you to connect with

00:54:11.640 humanity again and with

00:54:12.920 God is, is reconnecting

00:54:14.360 with God, you know,

00:54:15.700 because that's the one

00:54:16.320 thing that the regime

00:54:16.940 wants to do is to cut

00:54:18.220 you off from, from the

00:54:20.100 supernatural and the

00:54:20.980 metaphysical.

00:54:22.400 And so you reestablish a

00:54:23.920 relationship with God,

00:54:25.020 reestablish a relationship

00:54:26.120 with other people, and then

00:54:27.940 sort of find yourself and

00:54:29.320 begin to ask again, you

00:54:30.780 know, so how do we relate

00:54:32.800 with tools?

00:54:33.220 And hopefully we can get

00:54:34.080 into it being a little,

00:54:35.260 a little wiser.

00:54:38.680 Yeah.

00:54:39.180 So things may not be as

00:54:40.220 efficient in the end, but

00:54:42.200 that's kind of, you know,

00:54:44.140 what comes with, you know,

00:54:45.620 you, you, you really do

00:54:47.120 have to emerge on the

00:54:47.980 other side where, you

00:54:49.860 know, the idea of taboo

00:54:51.060 or the idea of technique

00:54:52.380 becomes almost a taboo for

00:54:53.860 people.

00:54:54.980 Like you said, there, there

00:54:55.740 is a cost for these things.

00:54:56.840 We like to pretend that

00:54:57.700 it's, it's all, it's all

00:54:59.620 solutions, but it's actually

00:55:01.100 mostly trade-offs and

00:55:02.400 that, that's a, that's a

00:55:04.140 difficult thing for people

00:55:05.160 to realize, but essential.

00:55:07.020 And I think that's really

00:55:07.960 when, when a lot of us,

00:55:09.200 you know, there's the whole

00:55:09.940 boomer con phenomenon and

00:55:11.180 they're not, everyone is

00:55:12.200 like that, but I think part

00:55:13.960 of what makes the boomer

00:55:15.140 con phenomenon, what it is,

00:55:18.800 is this expectation that we

00:55:22.960 can make things right again.

00:55:25.920 We can bring things quote

00:55:27.740 unquote back to the way

00:55:28.860 they were when we

00:55:29.600 remembered when everything

00:55:30.380 was good, but without any

00:55:32.760 personal cost, right.

00:55:35.120 And that's really the key

00:55:36.600 that has, I think for a lot

00:55:37.680 of people on the right, that

00:55:38.900 has to be understood is

00:55:40.620 that there's no way through

00:55:43.100 to a better, more flourishing

00:55:46.260 society without paying a

00:55:49.240 personal cost or social costs,

00:55:51.360 community costs.

00:55:51.860 And, you know, life will be

00:55:53.460 harder.

00:55:54.660 It will be less prosperous, but

00:55:56.780 it will, you know, and that's

00:55:59.040 the utopian side, at least in

00:56:00.220 theory, you know, it should be

00:56:01.840 more fulfilling.

00:56:03.640 Well, I think that's a lot of

00:56:04.940 really important things for

00:56:06.160 people to think about.

00:56:06.960 Again, I think, you know, very

00:56:08.100 thought provoking, not the

00:56:09.500 easiest message, I think for

00:56:11.760 some, but I think it's really

00:56:13.300 essential and a lot of people

00:56:14.720 need to start thinking about

00:56:16.240 that.

00:56:16.760 So I really appreciate you

00:56:18.680 coming on cryptos before we

00:56:20.720 pivot over to, I think we got a

00:56:22.360 couple of super chats before we

00:56:23.740 go over there.

00:56:25.120 What, where can people find your

00:56:26.740 work?

00:56:27.020 So I, the nice thing is, is in

00:56:30.580 relaunching my sub stack, now I

00:56:32.300 have purchased my domain name.

00:56:34.180 So it's really easy.

00:56:35.200 Seeking the hidden thing.com

00:56:36.840 seeking the hidden thing.com and

00:56:39.760 on Twitter, it's at underscore

00:56:42.100 cryptos.

00:56:42.820 And that's where you can find

00:56:44.360 me.

00:56:44.580 And I'm generally pretty good.

00:56:47.240 If you have questions, you know,

00:56:48.600 hit me up and hopefully I don't

00:56:51.200 get overwhelmed with it.

00:56:52.240 But if, if you have questions, I'm

00:56:53.900 more than happy to ask.

00:56:55.220 Some of this stuff is, some of the

00:56:56.900 pieces that I wrote are not behind

00:56:58.460 paywalls.

00:56:59.160 Others are, but you should be able to

00:57:01.720 nose around and find enough here to,

00:57:03.920 on the site to sort of satisfy you

00:57:05.420 that way.

00:57:06.640 Excellent.

00:57:06.900 Yeah.

00:57:07.020 And like I said, he records these as

00:57:09.880 well as writes them.

00:57:10.940 So if you're somebody who's more

00:57:11.940 audio based or if you're, you know,

00:57:14.660 you need to have that found time, you

00:57:16.460 can always get those there.

00:57:17.880 So make sure that you're checking out

00:57:19.540 all of his work.

00:57:20.720 All right.

00:57:20.960 Let's go over to the questions of the

00:57:22.680 people here real quick.

00:57:23.880 We've got one.

00:57:24.700 It looks like a Kony current year.

00:57:27.660 Thank you very much, sir.

00:57:29.320 Thoughts on hops, private covenant

00:57:31.180 communities as an alternative and

00:57:33.820 thoughts on taking advantage of places

00:57:35.860 where the administrative state has

00:57:37.260 failed like Detroit.

00:57:38.940 So I would say I'm actually rereading

00:57:42.180 democracy, the God that failed.

00:57:43.920 And I just re I just reread what

00:57:47.120 must be done.

00:57:48.280 I'll say that hop is always very

00:57:52.060 strong.

00:57:52.680 He's great by giving people

00:57:55.080 solid libertarian arguments.

00:57:57.700 He's the best libertarian.

00:57:58.660 It's not even close.

00:58:00.580 He takes his his theory of power from

00:58:02.600 Bertrand to juvenile, which makes his

00:58:04.240 analysis very good.

00:58:05.860 But when he gets to the coveted

00:58:06.840 communities, the problem is and it's

00:58:09.520 the thing I see over and over again

00:58:10.800 with with the kind of libertarians

00:58:12.360 and anarcho capitalists, that kind of

00:58:15.040 thing.

00:58:15.780 You're just recreating the state.

00:58:17.900 You're just making the state and you're

00:58:19.280 just calling it something else.

00:58:20.800 I get that.

00:58:21.420 The idea is that the stuff is all going

00:58:22.640 to be voluntary.

00:58:23.500 It's all going to be contractual.

00:58:25.640 I think this is assuming a certain

00:58:28.420 affinity for contractual law that exists

00:58:31.460 in very specific communities that doesn't

00:58:35.500 really map on to the wider human

00:58:37.820 experience.

00:58:39.080 And it feels like 10 minutes in, somebody's

00:58:40.900 just going to be like, well, what if I

00:58:42.320 stopped to be like being a private

00:58:43.640 contractor for security?

00:58:45.340 And I just conquered people and the state

00:58:48.300 is reborn.

00:58:48.740 Well, and also you have to understand,

00:58:51.660 Oren, that like the whole notion of

00:58:54.740 building a state on contract law is, in a

00:58:58.640 sense, the exercise of commerce and

00:59:02.340 technique.

00:59:03.060 Oh, absolutely.

00:59:03.600 Fundamental estate, right?

00:59:04.680 Yeah.

00:59:04.820 So really, if you go back to the idea of

00:59:07.140 using contracts, you're starting from the

00:59:10.380 same place as the current liberal system.

00:59:13.920 And it only ends one way.

00:59:16.040 And that's, we've seen that show and we're

00:59:18.020 just watching the reruns at this point.

00:59:19.880 Yeah.

00:59:19.940 Which is why Hoppe's attack on democracy

00:59:22.220 by just kind of showing its contrast with

00:59:25.620 monarchies is very strong, but Hoppe's not

00:59:28.440 actually a monarchist.

00:59:29.620 And so he's not really promoting monarchy.

00:59:32.200 He's not looking at any of the strengths of

00:59:33.340 monarchy.

00:59:33.640 He's only showing like the ways in which

00:59:36.000 democracy fails in comparison.

00:59:38.220 He never thinks about the fact that like

00:59:39.800 actually the things that, you know, he

00:59:42.440 thinks that what creates kind of the

00:59:45.020 better system with the monarchy is the

00:59:47.500 ownership.

00:59:48.380 It's all about the property, right?

00:59:49.720 And he's right that those incentives exist

00:59:51.360 inside that sphere, but he's not

00:59:52.880 understanding the decisionism behind it.

00:59:54.640 He's not understanding the, you know, the

00:59:56.420 kind of the singular vision, the things

00:59:58.800 that the elimination of bureaucracy through

01:00:01.060 kind of the, you know, the sovereign.

01:00:03.040 And so I think, well, again, it's an excellent

01:00:06.440 book.

01:00:06.800 Everyone should read Hoppe.

01:00:08.340 I do think the covenant communities is where 0.99

01:00:10.660 he just routinely falls short.

01:00:13.200 Well, the thing is also too, and this is

01:00:16.000 something that Schmidt notes, is that once you

01:00:19.360 cast aside the old metaphysics upon which the

01:00:22.160 monarch is built, this idea, and Ellul also

01:00:26.100 raises the same question, is that there was a time

01:00:28.920 when the idea of revolting against the king was

01:00:31.780 just unthinkable because it's like revolting

01:00:33.440 against God.

01:00:34.040 Yeah, you need the political theology behind it.

01:00:36.280 That's right.

01:00:36.720 The systems cannot be separated.

01:00:38.820 And that's why Schmidt says in the current

01:00:41.360 context, you can't go back to a monarch because

01:00:44.580 you lack the metaphysical framework to make a

01:00:47.600 monarchy work.

01:00:48.680 He says the only thing is, in a sense, to go

01:00:50.500 forward to the dictator who exercise, who rules

01:00:52.740 by, but basically in a Nietzschean form, you

01:00:56.540 know, the will to power, he exercises his will

01:00:58.460 upon the people.

01:00:59.540 And that, I think essentially he's right.

01:01:01.620 And that would be when we talk about building

01:01:03.000 alternative communities, part of that task would

01:01:06.120 be over time is to recover that metaphysic as

01:01:10.940 well, too.

01:01:12.540 And then the second one here, thoughts on taking

01:01:14.000 advantage of places where the administrative state

01:01:15.720 has failed, like Detroit.

01:01:18.260 I mean, in the case that warlordism emerges, I'm

01:01:22.720 not sure exactly, but yeah, I feel that one.

01:01:26.180 That may be referencing like an I am 1776 piece

01:01:29.960 from a couple of weeks ago where they talked

01:01:31.980 because there was an idea that, you know, we have

01:01:34.800 to get out of the cities and go to the country, right?

01:01:36.600 And I forget who the author was, but he wrote a

01:01:38.460 piece and saying, hey, listen, if you go to the

01:01:40.200 country, it just kind of increases your costs

01:01:41.980 because you get a drive, you got to have all

01:01:43.260 these other, you know what I mean?

01:01:44.340 But he says, if you want to set up alternate

01:01:47.780 communities, he says, go to a place like Detroit

01:01:49.740 because there they have all of these areas where

01:01:51.820 people defaulted on loans, defaulted on their

01:01:53.920 property taxes. And the city is just now bulldozing

01:01:56.400 these houses.

01:01:57.440 So you can have an entry.

01:01:57.700 Just go and gentrify a failed city?

01:01:59.820 Well, not even more so, but they basically go in

01:02:02.640 and colonize it.

01:02:04.340 So you get a group of people, you get like, say,

01:02:06.800 200 of these lots and you develop, you know,

01:02:09.820 a colony inside downtown Detroit for next to

01:02:13.620 nothing, right?

01:02:14.360 And you're close to all the services and blah, blah,

01:02:16.180 blah, blah, blah.

01:02:16.900 The other thing is, is that the prices that you live

01:02:18.660 in inner city Detroit, which, you know, I've been

01:02:20.540 to inner city Detroit, it's not, it's not people,

01:02:24.240 but you could make it more.

01:02:25.720 And that's kind of the idea is that you, you sort

01:02:27.400 of, you go into these liberal territories and you

01:02:29.540 basically conquer them from within, which is, it was

01:02:32.340 a fascinating idea.

01:02:33.380 And, and one that is sort of, it's, it's intriguing

01:02:35.920 enough for me not to dismiss it entirely.

01:02:38.500 Nope. That is an interesting way to, to address

01:02:41.180 that. I, that, yeah, I can see, I can see how you

01:02:44.200 could make an interesting case for that.

01:02:45.920 All right, guys, well, we're going to go ahead

01:02:47.680 and wrap it up here again.

01:02:49.160 Thank you to Kriptos for coming on.

01:02:50.760 Make sure you're checking out all of his work over

01:02:53.480 at his, uh, sub stack.

01:02:55.600 Uh, the piece is excellent.

01:02:56.960 I think you should read the original just to get

01:02:59.140 all of the context.

01:03:00.120 We, we went through many different, uh, parts of

01:03:02.600 it, but we also went other directions.

01:03:04.260 So there's still plenty that we didn't get to.

01:03:05.960 So make sure that you guys check that out.

01:03:07.820 If it's your first time here on the channel, please

01:03:09.880 make sure that you go ahead and subscribe.

01:03:11.700 And if you'd like to get these broadcasts as

01:03:13.580 podcasts, make sure that you go ahead and

01:03:15.200 subscribe to the Orin McIntyre show on your

01:03:17.340 favorite podcast platform.

01:03:18.580 When you do leave that rating or review, I

01:03:21.340 really appreciate it.

01:03:22.540 All right, guys, thank you once again for

01:03:23.860 stopping by.

01:03:24.420 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - August 16, 2023

Can the Administrative State Be Replaced？｜ Guest： Kruptos ｜ 8⧸16⧸23

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

The Auron MacIntyre Show - August 16, 2023

Can the Administrative State Be Replaced？ ｜ Guest： Kruptos ｜ 8⧸16⧸23

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Can the Administrative State Be Replaced？｜ Guest： Kruptos ｜ 8⧸16⧸23