In this episode, we discuss why Donald Trump has returned his focus back to domestic policy and what that means for the economy. We are joined by the Prudentialist, Matthew Karpf, to discuss the impact this could have on the economy and the midterms.
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00:00:30.360Hey, everybody. How's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon.
00:00:33.380I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.
00:00:37.540Donald Trump has pivoted to the domestic after a big blow up over the Venezuela strike.
00:00:44.460Trump seems to have returned his focus to the United States, recognizing that domestic policy is king.
00:00:51.100Something that his constituents are absolutely looking for is gains, especially in the area of standard of living and affordability.
00:00:57.880So Trump has made two big announcements recently.
00:01:01.260One is his intention to restrict the purchase of residential property by finance, large conglomerates, corporations to ensure that single families,
00:01:13.200the average person have more affordable housing, that it's not all being gobbled up and they're being pushed into the rental economy the way that it seems like many large corporations have been trying to move our real estate market.
00:01:25.400The other big announcement he made is that he intends to cap credit card interest at 10%, effectively eliminating usury, a huge change, I think, and ultimately one that he can't unilaterally make.
00:01:40.080So we're going to be discussing why he's announced these changes, what it would take to actually get this stuff done, and what the underlying principles are for the American people.
00:01:49.540Joining me today to discuss that is, of course, one of our favorite co-hosts, the Prudentialist.
00:01:54.560Matthew, thank you so much for coming on, man.
00:01:56.340Yeah, thank you, Oren, for having me on again. It's always a pleasure.
00:01:58.640Of course. So, like I said, there's been these two announcements, and we can't really look at them without separating, obviously, the current events that are going on.
00:02:08.600Now, in one way, the Trump administration got a rude awakening and got snapped back to domestic policy by the events going on in Minnesota.
00:02:16.500Everything that's happening with ICE and the pushback against agents after we had, I think, what is an entirely justified shooting of a terrorist who attempted to kill an ICE agent,
00:02:27.540but has continued to return focus away from the foreign policy sector and back to what's happening domestically here in the United States.
00:02:36.740Also, guys, I should say, we are pre-taping this.
00:02:39.340So, if we're talking about this like, you know, we don't know what's already happened, if some major event has happened, this is going to come out on Wednesday, and that's why.
00:02:48.200We don't know. Also, obviously, we can't take any questions due to that.
00:02:52.160But, Matt, looking at both of these actions, these are things that you and I have ultimately said would be great ideas.
00:02:59.720Many people, I think, in the new right have asked that we see a return to focusing on building that ability for families to form, to, you know, own houses, young people to acquire houses.
00:03:10.980They're more likely to have children, more likely to have larger families.
00:03:13.920When they do that, obviously, we both know that debt is a massive problem with everyone, but especially young people in the United States.
00:03:21.280So, I see both of these proposals as rather positive suggestions.
00:03:25.300However, these are obviously things that the president can't just do on his own.
00:03:29.160Even with executive orders, it seems like there's very little, you know, latitude for him to make significant policy changes.
00:03:36.540So, what do you think is ultimately going on with a presentation of both of these concerns back to back?
00:03:42.540For me, it seems like he's setting the agenda in order to make the case for why he and the Republican Party should stay in power, at least in Congress, throughout the midterm election.
00:03:52.360I think that this pivot has coincided on top of numerous elections in which Democrats have done very well in.
00:03:59.940We saw numerous gubernatorial sweeps from Democrats across the country, as well as mayoral elections, not just in New York, but also in the Miami-Dade area as well, where I think it's the first time in like 30-something years that Democrats have taken office.
00:04:13.500And a lot of these campaigns that Democrats have been focusing on has been primarily on the issues of affordability and the ability to have their quality of life see an overall improvement, whether it's due to claims of inflation or the amount of economic opportunities that are available.
00:04:30.680Democrats everywhere from Zora Mandani to Amy Acton in Ohio, who was running against Vivek Ramaswamy, has been championing on the issues that people who work hard should be rewarded for the labor that they've put forward into the economy and into the system, and that system should work for them.
00:04:46.520And to me, it echoes a conversation I had not too long ago with some friends I have in my historical society here where I live, and the topic of Charlie Kirk had come up.
00:04:58.060And the last appearance he had on Tucker Carlson I thought was very eerily prophetic because it's the affordability issues, it's the questions of does the system ever really serve me at all, and if it doesn't, then I'm going to go vote for people that I would never vote for before, or I would support those that have no real support for my interests or my identity at heart, but say that they're actually going to do something about it.
00:05:21.740And people who say that they're going to do things are going to be much better than those that are talking about it or tweeting about it from the purchase of power.
00:05:28.040So I think it's very positive to see Trump return to domestic issues. Obviously, that is where all things really do matter for the American voter, especially as we come up on the 26 midterms in the primaries.
00:05:39.620And so I think that we're going to see a State of the Union address probably in the next couple of months, and that these actions are going to be his charge to press on Congress to do so.
00:05:49.400I know that he announced that he's going to do the credit card, you know, interest rate cap at 10%. He wants to announce that on January 20th, on the anniversary of him being sworn in, and I don't know if he's planning to go further with that with the State of the Union, I don't know yet.
00:06:03.380But I think it just comes to show that some of the issues that he's been promising on during the campaign, I think he's trying to come up with a legislative agenda to secure the victory for him and his party come the election.
00:06:14.400Yeah, these are largely conversation starters, I agree with you. And that's wise, because one, it sets the stage, lets Congress know where they should expect things to be directed, it builds the expectations of the average person, it changes the discussion inside the news media.
00:06:33.460And even if you're not going to immediately be able to achieve these things, your constituents are going to feel better knowing that you're talking about them, working towards them.
00:06:40.400But of course, these are all going to be large mountains to climb. Now, a lot of people have started to ask me for predictions, hey, it's the new year, you know, what do you think is going to happen here?
00:06:48.460What do you think is going to be the big deal coming up? And I've given the same answer every time I'm asked is, look, the thing that's going to be every president's problem, left, right, Republican, Democrat, is going to be affordability.
00:06:59.320I mean, I don't have to tell you this, I probably don't have to tell our audience this, but our economy is a runaway train, right? Like there's simply, there is no escape from kind of the democratic problem.
00:07:09.320You know, you and I, I think I've even read Nick Land's zombie, you know, democracy, you know, the zombie apocalypse, you know, essay where he just talks about, you know, democracy is just like ravenous horde looking to consume everything.
00:07:23.680And you have a serious problem where in any kind of vote based political order, the ability to promise people stuff is really the key thing. I know Republicans hate to hear that, but it is true.
00:07:36.100Patronage is what makes politics work. And so in a democratic process, whoever offers more stuff is usually going to win in the long term. And of course that works, but it also creates long term problems because you're printing and spending to try to get all of this.
00:07:52.000And there's all the advantages built in for who gets to move first on the money and manipulate the interest rates. And so you're just going to constantly have the scenario where, you know, the boomers want their house values to go up and corporations continue wanting to be able to use the advantages of leverage and all these things.
00:08:07.560And so inflation is just going to keep happening. We can blame Republicans. We can blame Democrats. We can blame abstract principles and social policies and monetary theory.
00:08:18.700But at the end of the day, this is just responding to the political marketplace, right?
00:08:22.680Like this is what the people think they want, and this is how politicians deliver it to them. And there's just no way to escape from that cycle. And so the trick is really to kind of blame your opponent for why the affordability crisis continues to happen, even though it's going to happen, whether it's under Republicans again or Democrats.
00:08:41.160However, if you can make these minor policy changes, then you can at least better the lives of some people you can adjust and address some level of the problem.
00:08:51.300And that's worth doing just because the ship is sinking slowly doesn't mean you don't plug as many holes as you can bail out as much water as you possibly can.
00:08:59.760And so let's look at these two policies. The easy one first. I think this is the easier one to sell, the easier one to try to get through Congress.
00:09:08.800It's the harder one for the Democrats to fight back against. And that is the housing affordability issue, right?
00:09:13.820Like nobody except corporations wants corporations to own homes. Like it just doesn't make sense unless you're one of these diehard libertarians or conservative that just vomits out whatever free market rhetoric you got fed back into you at one point.
00:09:27.540Right. Everyone can think about why having a black rock or whatever these these large investment firms holding large amounts of real estate and forcing people in the rental market.
00:09:39.460Everyone understands why that's bad. And so even the Republicans, I think, can be pushed on board, can be guilted into it.
00:09:46.980And the Democrats reflexively want to fight back against everything Trump does. But what possible argument can they have against this? Right.
00:09:53.640Like this is just exactly their kind of complaint or like maybe they want to abolish private property altogether.
00:09:59.180But other than that, how do they even argue against the idea that corporations shouldn't be able to own residential real estate?
00:10:06.560I mean, that's going to be the really good question is, is how do you steel man, you know, the the ongoing purchasing of homes or vast swaths of real estate or even where I live?
00:10:19.340I know that the neighboring counties around me have a lot of farmland that has been bought up because of the outpouring of both like the various suburbs and cities that are now being eaten alive by either the Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex or if you're even further south, like the greater Austin area.
00:10:35.580Like there's no left, you know, no area left for a lot of suburban sprawl.
00:10:40.380And instead, a lot of it has been turned into apartments and a lot of it has been an avenue for real estate.
00:10:45.720Or I know it's been sort of a boogeyman to discuss the question of like private equity or anything like that.
00:10:50.600But I mean, it is a very easy sell rhetorically that we are going to ban the usual boogeyman left, right and center that kind of would all agree that like, yeah, actually,
00:11:00.400I don't think that these guys have the average American's interest at heart, which is things like BlackRock or the rest, despite the fact that, you know, in the previous administration, they were quite all over the place in terms of policy.
00:11:11.660So I think this move is going to be an interesting one.
00:11:14.840And I know that he's not really going to be able to do it without, you know, Trump, as he had said in his Truth Social post, he says he'll be calling on Congress to codify it.
00:11:24.020He says he's going to be immediately taking steps to ban large institutional investors from buying more single family homes.
00:11:30.400I think that it in much I think this is a much better direction rhetorically and politically than the question over 50 year mortgages that was proposed just a few months ago.
00:11:39.760But of course, you know, the ongoing question is going to be how many of these homes are going to be available?
00:12:35.080But I think that saying that, hey, this is no longer going to be a rental property.
00:12:39.060And this is going to be something where, you know, there are home loans and other predatory systems in place that prevent, you know, Americans from actually getting homes.
00:12:49.440Let's let's see what this does for the average homeowner.
00:12:51.880Yeah, I really think this is a winning issue just across the board and not just because it's been a hobby horse of mine for a while.
00:12:57.840But like I said, I just can't imagine a coherent argument from the left other than Orange Man Bad about how you can really oppose this,
00:13:07.040which means your real enemies, funny enough, on this will be from the right.
00:13:11.140I'm sure that you'll have some chamber of communist Republicans or, you know, wildly ideological free trade guys who will try to push back against this.
00:13:19.560But I don't think their arguments will be strong.
00:13:21.480I think the biggest block for this, sadly, will be, as you point out, how closely this administration has worked with many of those financial institutions, BlackRock, Blackstone.
00:13:32.640I mean, BlackRock, you know, Larry Fink's having to, like, what, buy Ukraine at this point, right?
00:13:36.740Like, we're literally working out a deal with him right now to see how much of Ukraine can be sold to BlackRock.
00:13:42.520So is an administration and probably a Congress that is largely, you know, in bed with these organizations going to tell these organizations,
00:13:52.560no, you can't buy, you know, this stuff?
00:13:55.100Are they going to have to offer these people some kind of carrot to go along with the stick?
00:14:00.380You know, these are all questions that I think are what would really impact the ability to move this forward.
00:14:06.740However, I will say watching every congressman, like, squirm as they're forced to attack their big donors or openly choose their donors over the basic sanity of allowing families to own homes.
00:14:18.600Because, you know, that's an exercise worth going through, even if I guess you can't ultimately secure that.
00:14:23.400So, like I said, I think that's the easier one.
00:14:25.460I think that's the one that's easy to justify, hard to argue against, would have the most support, would be the most difficult for even the average Republican to fight back against.
00:14:34.600It would really just come down to whether politicians would defy their donors, which is actually the largest of all rules, I understand.
00:14:41.960But at least it's just the one instead of, you know, a multiplicity of issues.
00:14:47.180Now, the other suggestion is the credit card one.
00:14:50.960And I think this one's interesting for a few reasons.
00:14:53.280One, Joe Biden was famous for being, like, a huge fan of the credit cards and fighting for credit card companies.
00:15:04.460Two, I have suggested that there is a serious problem with usury several times.
00:15:10.240Now, that's not because I'm a great moral philosopher or rocket scientist.
00:15:14.900It's because I can read the Bible and also other sources of moral wisdom.
00:15:20.500And they uniformly say that usury is a problem.
00:15:23.900They all note that this is a dangerous thing to consistently engage in.
00:15:30.020But every time I suggest that perhaps usury is not the best, like I even cited Aristotle at some point, pointing out the problems of usury.
00:15:38.480I get just absolutely attacked on all sides.
00:15:42.600I get attacked by people who say, oh, well, you're just wanting to go back to the Stone Ages or the Middle Ages.
00:17:39.100So what do you think about, I guess, the larger discussion on usury?
00:17:43.160And then we'll get to like the practical application of if they could ever actually get this done.
00:17:47.240Yeah, I mean, it's a pretty, it's one of those third rail topics, or at least it's a word that becomes a third rail topic in American politics.
00:17:57.920And I think a lot of it has to do with the American political scene being very much charged with any form of accusations of bigotry or, more recently, anti-Semitism when it comes to the right.
00:18:08.820We've already witnessed that on the left a lot since October 7th.
00:18:11.920It played a large part, I think, in the 2024 election, at least in places like Michigan.
00:18:16.180We saw how that went for Kamala Harris in various parts in that state, especially due to various immigrant populations.
00:18:23.200The same thing also, too, when it comes to like the broader scope of these, both these questions, both the interest cap, but also the question of like housing, is that the nitty gritty remains to be the ultimate question on these issues.
00:18:35.980I mean, firms that own 100 or more single family homes, according to an article I was reading on CNBC in preparation for this discussion, says that, you know,
00:18:44.640that's about 2% of the nation's single family housing stock.
00:18:48.680It also raises some interesting questions of like, well, if we're banning them, what else are we going to do to alleviate home prices?
00:18:55.620And this is going to, of course, imagine, like you had said, be conversation starters.
00:18:59.180And the same thing when it comes to the credit card question, or at least for capping interest rates on credit cards at 10%.
00:19:05.240I know that the Federal Reserve plays a small role for what the rates are for them, which is then calculated alongside the borrowing rate based on a user's credit history.
00:19:15.000And are they considered a risky person to borrow or lend money to?
00:20:17.140I can get a card through other sort of payment apps and Venmo and all the rest.
00:20:20.760And while those operate, of course, through various similar, you know, payment processors, you know, you can technically treat that as a bank account without actually having a formal bank account at your, you know, local credit union or at a large banking institution.
00:20:33.200So, I mean, the question of enforcement becomes an interesting one.
00:20:35.640But also, at the same time, it opens up so many other third rail discussions about credit and about who gets lended to and who is lending.
00:20:45.380Because when we look at, say, there's a lot of videos out there on social media that show how individuals will buy a used car and get an auto loan and the financial paperwork that they all fill out.
00:20:58.780One, most people are not financially literate.
00:21:01.080That is a huge problem in this country is that we have a substantial lack of financial literacy.
00:21:05.460I'm sure that that is going to be an interesting thing to break down if you're to break that up on American demographics.
00:21:09.840But nevertheless, on top of that, you also have the issue of that you do have risky, you know, people who want to, you know, get access to credit.
00:21:22.300And that's already a question that's being raised.
00:21:23.980I imagine that someone could easily raise a 14th Amendment kind of lawsuit about, you know, the Equal Protection Clause and their access to things or even along civil rights lines.
00:21:33.500So you're touching the third rail, of course, about, you know, touching our financial institutions, which everything has become over financialized.
00:21:40.460We don't regulate things like Clarina.
00:21:42.240We don't regulate things that can be at ridiculous rates.
00:21:45.720We don't look at, you know, the consequences that they have.
00:21:48.640And of course, now this wanton amount of online gambling, it's a whole other discussion for another time.
00:21:52.560But I think that, you know, trying to put some kind of regulatory pressure on the very question of whether you want to call it usury or if you want to call it the over financialization of everything, it really does show that the Trump administration is looking at something that is quite serious,
00:22:09.400which is that, you know, even Black Friday, you know, details from this last holiday season really does come to show how bad everyone was using buy now, pay later kind of things for their equipment.
00:22:23.260This isn't like layaway, you know, back when you and I were younger or our parents wanted to save up and pay for something like a ring or whatnot.
00:22:29.720Now it's just anything and it's instantly in your hands and that's how it's going to be.
00:22:34.200And then the consequences of whether or not you pay becomes a whole other discussion.
00:23:12.800Yeah, you Zoomer kids don't remember the people showing up to JCPenney's to put down 50 bucks on, you know, something for six months before they finally owned it in the layaway program.
00:23:32.920It seems like a, you know, okay, you know, 10%, you know, whatever.
00:23:36.380Like, actually, there's so many things wrapped up in this, and you kind of highlighted a few of them there, so I want to pull that apart a little bit because I do think there's some fascinating issues to think about.
00:23:47.300The first one is the way in which, as you say, over-financialization creates this really interesting dynamic that puts a way more emphasis on financial literacy.
00:23:59.840Because when we say financial literacy, there's a certain amount of, like, okay, how to write a check and how to, you know, keep a bank account and apply for a loan and get insurance and these kind of things.
00:24:11.080Things that they used to kind of teach you in school to some degree, but less and less, that happens.
00:24:16.760But one of the things is that one of the reasons you need more financial literacy is you've increased financial complexity, right?
00:24:23.380So if the average person just needs to, like, save money in a bank and work, those are pretty basic things, right?
00:24:32.580Like, maybe you have to learn how to get a bank account and write a check, but relatively, you can figure that out.
00:24:39.680But the more you financialize, the more you move things into this realm where you need to be making these investments and hedging things and figuring out the tax shelters and, you know, the IRAs and do you want a Roth or do you want a traditional?
00:24:59.680The more you are forced to interact with these things because of the complexity of the financial market, the more financial literacy becomes critical, right?
00:25:08.920And the higher level of financial literacy you have to achieve just to keep the basics up.
00:25:14.380And this becomes a class issue because the rich are going to be the ones who are more familiar with these complex financial instruments.
00:25:22.180And those who are not in those classes are much less likely to have the ability to understand that.
00:25:30.840And that can be a huge hindrance for the average American.
00:25:34.460Most people can't spend a large amount of their time learning everything about financial markets and the way they should be manipulating their money to stay ahead of the game.
00:25:44.320So if you're one of these people who is on top of all of that or you can pay someone enough to be on top of that for you, then you gain a first mover advantage and an advantage of complexity on the rest of the economy.
00:25:56.380You have a built-in, baked-in advantage over everyone else you're competing with.
00:26:01.360There's also the issue of race when it comes to credit.
00:26:06.480Famously, there are different classes.
00:26:09.720There are different groups who are less likely to have good credit.
00:26:14.160And when you shrink that credit cap, you're also shrinking the number of people banks will lend to, right?
00:26:20.000Because, okay, I'm probably not going to lend to you if you're high risk at 10% because there's just not enough return for you to take that risk.
00:26:28.520At 30%, well, maybe I will because even if you don't pay off the whole thing, I'm still going to make a decent amount of money off of you over time.
00:26:38.160And so a lot of minorities and others who might have bad credit will be stuck at the margins.
00:26:43.520Now, all of a sudden, they won't get those loans.
00:26:45.740Now, in my mind, you shouldn't have gotten those loans at all.
00:26:47.980The interest rate was so high that it was always a bad move for you to take that loan.
00:26:52.700And so the fact that you get access to that loan at 25% instead of 10%, that's not actually an advantage for you.
00:26:59.120But in the mind of many, just not having access to credit is the problem, right?
00:27:03.480And this ties us back to the last thing I want to say, which is that when you have really a decent amount of interest rates on loans in general,
00:27:13.420when you have a high degree of leverage because of the percentages and the availability of credit, that drives up the price of everything, that it creates inflation.
00:27:23.600Well, there's a lot of reasons, but one of them is that more people can get mortgages and they can get mortgages for longer, which means they can pay more for houses.
00:27:31.100So you have to compete with more people over the price of the house and they can offer more money on the house.
00:27:36.780And this is true of cars and this is true of everything because the more people can get leverage, the higher prices they can pay for basic goods, the more the price you're going to have to pay as well.
00:27:48.060And so there's this like credit spiral that happens and you can see this in the housing market and to a large degree, the booms and busts of the housing market are also booms and busts in credit availability.
00:28:00.020And so when you have a lot of money chasing houses out there, the prices shoot through the roof and that's what creates a large amount of your housing inflation.
00:28:07.900You see, again, same thing with colleges.
00:28:10.020The fact that kids can take out $200,000 loans for a school is why those schools can charge that much money.
00:28:17.060If they couldn't get access, if people with no job history and no actual property couldn't get $200,000 loans, we wouldn't be seeing the ridiculous tuitions that we're seeing.
00:28:30.940So just across the board, the availability of credit creates in many ways the affordability problems it's meant to solve.
00:28:37.760So I know through like a lot of stuff out there, but just wherever you want to tackle it, what about these many different issues that the high interest rates or availability of credit create?
00:28:48.260Yeah. And I mean, this is the thing that most people aren't going to be aware of.
00:28:52.200And it's something that has been often talked about since I was young, and I'm sure the same thing for you, that we ask ourselves questions like, well, when are the things that we learn in school are going to be applicable?
00:29:00.680Or I wish that the, you know, my regular W-2 tax form for the average wage earner was something that was taught in school as well.
00:29:08.760And I mean, those are obviously an education question, but also a parental one as well.
00:29:12.860We have a lot of, a lot of things in our culture, at least, has abdicated parental responsibility.
00:29:18.620And a lot of that, of course, has a lot to do with, you know, the dual income trap that has often been discussed, but it's also now a necessity in order to be able to afford, you know, your family or your home and your lifestyle.
00:29:31.560There's a question of decadence in there, but I'm not someone who promotes the idea of downward mobility as being honorable.
00:29:36.840And at the same time, you also have the issue and the question of just, like, America is not a place where, you know, we could rely on swift problems to financial issues.
00:29:48.060I mean, this isn't like the savings and loan crisis of George H.W. Bush's time either.
00:29:54.660And a lot of it is predicated on perception and belief more than, you know, anything that might be written on paper.
00:30:00.700This is why we put so much stock, at least for when it comes to policymakers and economic writers.
00:30:06.300We put so much emphasis on, you know, consumer confidence than anything else.
00:30:10.280And, you know, access to credit or a credit history becomes vitally important for every person who is trying to apply for an auto loan or a home loan or even just applying to live in an apartment while they go to school or live closer to their job so they're not commuting so far.
00:30:27.300I mean, it's something that affects every slice of life and access to it becomes a question of necessity and not so much like, well, I don't really need it right now.
00:30:35.740I can afford and live within my own means.
00:30:38.120And it becomes quite a debilitating situation to be in, especially for younger people.
00:30:43.960And, of course, America is in a weird place because the younger and younger generations under the consequences of both immigration and our policies of preferring, you know, diversity when it comes to, say, small business loans or home loans and things from the Clinton administration to things that have been brought on by Biden.
00:31:01.800I don't know what Trump has touched on these issues either, but it's like you're again, like I mentioned earlier, there's so many third rails that this like just intersects and cross cuts into that it becomes this Gordian knot.
00:31:12.520And I think that you have to start somewhere, which I think is what the Trump administration has announced on doing this, is that they're going to start laying the blade on one part of the knot and seeing what else comes frayed or comes open and we can address and talk to those issues.
00:31:25.220And I'm all for that because it needs to be done.
00:31:28.400Yes, there should be more financial education, but also at the same time, we have a culture where we have instant gratification.
00:31:34.780We have the issue that no one reads the end user like license agreement when it comes to installing a new operating system or a new program or anything on their phone or applying for things.
00:31:46.480But also, it doesn't matter if you have good credit or bad credit.
00:31:49.400I mean, I check my mail every couple of days and all the time you see littered advertisements in my apartment in the trash where it's just like all these like credit card or loan applications and checks that you're magically pre-approved for that no one is really going to read all the fine print or what the interest rate is on there.
00:32:09.940And again, it's the same thing with like, well, America is the only country in the world where we allow pharmaceutical industries to like openly market their drugs on the TV airwaves where other countries don't do that.
00:32:19.600And so a lot of this does boil down to what we had mentioned earlier.
00:32:22.340There's going to be a lot of special interests in mind that comes forward into this.
00:32:25.880There's going to be a lot of questions as to how do you even start to address the over financialization of everything.
00:32:32.200There was a great take where it says, you know, most of the economy is entirely vibes based.
00:32:36.580It's not really what's on paper, what your output is.
00:32:39.360It's what you can convince investors and consumers that the product is actually good for you or good for your portfolio.
00:32:44.860So it has to come down to the fact that there needs to be, I think, in the same way, a Gerald Ford moment where the state of the union financially is not good,
00:32:52.980whether it's the American government's like our sovereign debt problem and our debt to GDP ratio, but also just that the average American is both those who are considered middle class and otherwise that have voted for Trump in the past on economic issues,
00:33:07.320whether it's the issue of trade or re-industrializing America.
00:33:10.800It's like, okay, these are good things.
00:33:12.240And of course, once we deport more people and the issues that we're talking about here, whether it's the credit issue or the housing issue alleviates,
00:33:20.320you still have the longstanding problems that institutionally there is so much rot that we have accepted as a feature that you have to start somewhere.
00:33:29.020And I think that this kind of conversation is very good because it's the kind of economic populism that Trump has championed on in the past,
00:33:36.520but it's the exact same kind of economic populism that his political rivals have been outflanking Republicans on for years
00:33:43.680that so many lock, stock and barrel, traditional national review style Republicans don't want to play because that's against their economic orthodoxies or their own first principles.
00:33:54.680Well, and that's the real issue, right? Because I think you're right exactly that both these issues are home runs because the way,
00:34:02.780not only because they're good for people, which should be the first concern, but also politically they're winners because the narrative is just right there for you, right?
00:34:11.640Like this is economic populism. We're going to undercut the Bernie Sanders, the AOC messages.
00:34:17.380You know, we're going to come in. They can't, they might say these are insufficient or something,
00:34:20.880but they can't argue about the quality of either of these. They can't say, oh, well, you know, this is, this is hurting the little guy, that kind of thing. Right.
00:34:29.780So I think that they are both, you know, optically good, they are strategically good and have the virtue of also being good for the people.
00:34:38.300The largest problem, I think with the second one, with the credit card company will be conservatives.
00:34:43.020I think that's going to be the hardest thing, not just because I'm sure the credit card companies own large amounts of politicians,
00:34:48.420but just generally, genuinely, there seems to be among many, you know, national review, free trade,
00:34:55.660even, you know, mainstream Christian conservatives seem to think that like just open-ended interest rates are just,
00:35:03.360that's what freedom is. That's what liberty means is allowing a company to charge 40% on a credit card,
00:35:09.000you know, to charge 2000% on a payday loan. Like that, that's what economic liberty was talking about.
00:35:13.580That's Adam Smith right there. And so, you know, I think the largest pushback he's going to get are
00:35:19.640from people inside his own constituency or not his own constituency, but inside his own party.
00:35:24.840And that creates an interesting dynamic because we have watched this conservative civil war unfold.
00:35:31.560And it's largely been over Israel. Like, we'll just be honest. It's very clear that there's a neocon wing
00:35:38.700and they expect large amounts of loyalty to Israel and they perceive the new right as personified with like
00:35:49.020J.D. Vance as the successor of Trump to be in somehow in opposition to this, despite, you know,
00:35:56.120the very angry protestations of many America firsts that that's not the case.
00:36:01.580And so you have the scenario where they have already been trying to push back against,
00:36:06.040they've been trying to play this game where they're like, well, we're on Trump's side,
00:36:09.960but we don't like Vance or we don't like the new right. We don't like the people around him.
00:36:13.980So they're trying to like control MAGA, rebrand it, you know, gain, gain control of it.
00:36:20.180No, MAGA is actually about foreign adventurism and, you know, infinite war and support for Israel.
00:36:25.460That's, that's what MAGA was always out about, you know, at the, at the outset.
00:36:29.680But the problem is like, if Trump comes in with something like this, they're going to have to go
00:36:35.700harden the paint against it, right? Like I don't see a lot of the neocons. I don't, I don't see a
00:36:40.520Ben Shapiro celebrating the capping of, of credit cards at 10%. I don't think Max Abrams is going to
00:36:47.840be running around celebrating this as a pro Trump guy. And so this is going to, I think in a way,
00:36:53.320this is kind of an interesting way to smoke out some of those guys because they're going to have to go
00:36:57.560directly at Trump to counter this, right? Like, and that's going to, you know, they've been trying
00:37:01.560to play this no man's land game. We're like, no, we're the real, never Trump or we're the real
00:37:05.760Trumpers, even though we were all never Trumpers before. And like, you know, you guys are the ones
00:37:09.880betraying Trump, but if they're going to be arguing and attacking Trump's principles, when it comes to
00:37:14.880credit card companies, I think they're going to have a harder time holding themselves up as like
00:37:19.620the paragon of, you know, economic populism or something. Yeah. And I mean, we've saw this as well
00:37:26.000during the COVID era. I mean, there is the question of spending. And like I had mentioned
00:37:30.840earlier, there's just so many issues about these proposals that are going to once again,
00:37:36.620reiterate the same debates that we've had previously. And I mean, again, they're not bad
00:37:41.120debates to have. I mean, obviously the health of the American economy is like a very important one to
00:37:46.340like look into and we shouldn't be taking that so lightly. We obviously really need to be heavily
00:37:51.820looking into and considering where are we going from here when it comes to the state of the United
00:37:56.420States economy, but also the average person's ability to afford a home and everything. And
00:38:01.200those debates I think are going to be had more on the right than they are on the left. The left is
00:38:05.880very straightforward about what they want to do, which is either to overregulate anything. So their
00:38:09.980own special interests have regulatory capture or to engage in economic redistribution policies. And as
00:38:15.540we've seen with, you know, the people ones or in Momdani's team that primarily affect white
00:38:19.680people. And of course, with it being New York, that's probably also going to affect a large
00:38:24.080portion of American Jews that live in the New York City area. I mean, like that's just a very
00:38:29.460blunt thing that they're probably going to be doing about that when it comes to who is footing the bill
00:38:33.780for these things. And so I think that when you're looking at the debate or even the, you know,
00:38:38.420claims of this being a canard about, you know, bigotry or racism or whatever, the question is going
00:38:43.460to be like, you know, where the focus needs to be primarily above all things, the health of the
00:38:48.340American worker and the health of the American citizen. And that's really where our priority
00:38:52.620should be. The government's duty is to take care of and to be sovereign over its citizens
00:38:56.820and provide for its commonwealth. And if we're not doing that, then the question of legitimacy
00:39:01.400and sovereignty remains to be held. And we have to really remind the audience and remind the listener
00:39:06.680here that, and you and I have said this in other places, but again, like this is the first
00:39:11.200relatively competent right-wing administration of our lifetimes. And it feels like a drop in the bucket
00:39:16.480about how bad things are and addressing all issues at the same time is going to take years. It can't
00:39:21.660be done in one single presidential term. That's why there's been so much attention about the quote
00:39:25.820unquote new right, J.D. Vance, and all these accusations about who he associates with or who
00:39:30.480he follows on Twitter and what he says, either to defend the administration and its actions or the
00:39:35.140rest. But when we look at the health of the country overall, there is so much work that needs to be done.
00:39:40.500And Trump is offering, I think, at least an economic platform for good or for bad. It is going to be
00:39:46.300offering the Republicans, I think, a much needed CYA because they haven't done anything in the two
00:39:51.280years that they've been in office. You've signed a few pieces of legislation, including the one big
00:39:55.620beautiful bill, which is good for the Trump administration and especially good for the
00:39:58.880Department of Homeland Security. But overall, I mean, Congress has done very little and it's pretty bad
00:40:05.000when former congressmen and former speakers of the House have said, you know, Congress has really
00:40:10.280been riding on the president's coattails and hasn't really been doing much about their own agenda
00:40:15.900and putting forward a reason why they should be reelected. And so Congress has largely abdicated
00:40:21.360its responsibility. More things get done that are to the antithesis of the American interest and the
00:40:26.500American people than anything else. And while, you know, God bless him in his final days, former
00:40:31.340Senator Ben Sasse had said it best during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings in 2017, Congress has
00:40:37.040effectively abdicated its responsibility. It writes shell pieces of legislation, which directs the
00:40:42.860executive branch to do things. And when the executive branch does something that the American
00:40:46.680people don't like, the Supreme Court becomes the politics of last resort in the United States.
00:40:51.600And this is why we've seen SCOTUS be more active than ever, because it really does seem that the
00:40:55.620only way that the Trump administration can legally enshrine any of its actions or its interests
00:41:00.860is through the Supreme Court, because Congress doesn't want to do its job. And so if the president wants
00:41:06.260to establish an economic plan and focus on the domestic issues, especially on two big hot button ones,
00:41:12.140like interest rates and affordability of a home, especially when he has been considered to be
00:41:17.360the affordability president and to be the guy that wants to make the economy work again,
00:41:22.660then he needs to do this. But he's also going to need a party that isn't going to try to impeach
00:41:26.840his secretaries and his cabinet positions every other day for the rest of his two years in office after
00:41:34.220the midterms. Yeah, it's just obvious that Congress is over, right? Like technically,
00:41:41.440it'll still be there and have power and vote thing on things and obstruct the president or not at
00:41:49.340moments. But in general, the idea that we're like going to deliberate on stuff and work it out and
00:41:56.280then pass meaningful legislation. I think that's just kind of done, right? Like we can't even pass
00:42:00.800budgets anymore. We're lucky if we can get continuing resolutions through Congress at this
00:42:05.440point. So I mean, we're, we're, you know, we're talking about the, the, the community relations
00:42:11.060services yesterday and the, and it just got photocopied into a new budget. It looks like
00:42:15.820like that, that's kind of the level of bureaucracy we're at is it's so impossible to get anything done
00:42:20.400in Congress that you can't even just get like language in a budget or appropriations, continuing
00:42:26.760resolution solved, you know, like that, that's how impotent Congress has become. And of course,
00:42:31.960you know, we've talked, you know, quite a bit about the amount of authority that's been transferred
00:42:35.940into the bureaucracy because Congress can't make decisions when it comes to things that are supposed
00:42:40.440to be expert, that kind of stuff. And I talk about that a good bit in the total state, if people want
00:42:44.740to read my book. So these are all issues that have faced Congress for years. And I think these are just
00:42:50.200what happens as you move towards an empire, you know, as you, as you move away, like the Republic's
00:42:55.840done democracy is kind of just a shibboleth at this point. Uh, it's really just, uh, the only thing
00:43:01.360that can really be done is, you know, the, the momentum of the bureaucracy, the authority of the
00:43:06.420executive, and then the decisions of nine people on the court, uh, when it comes to actually having
00:43:12.580some large scale deliberative body trying to move legislation drafted that I think that's more or less
00:43:19.080done. And so that creates this dynamic where, you know, Trump is just trying to find avenues that he
00:43:26.440can, you know, use his power to, to move anything and hope that the courts just kind of agree with
00:43:33.460them or don't block them. That, that is kind of just the game that is now being played. Congress is
00:43:37.580largely irrelevant. And I think that's going to be the case going forward. And I don't think Congress
00:43:42.440is going to be held accountable for this. I think people are just going to call for the president to do
00:43:46.480more. People are going to want to see the president take more authority, take more action,
00:43:51.440possibly defy courts, you know, to, to get things done. I think you're going to see more and more
00:43:55.800call for that kind of stuff. And so the interesting dynamics going to be, you know, what, what happens
00:44:00.940there, but, uh, you know, before we go, Matt, I'm going to, I'm going to do something that, uh,
00:44:05.880I should never do. And I'm going to do it twice. So, sorry, first, I'm going to ask you to make a
00:44:09.660prediction and I'm going to ask you to make a prediction about the future in the past, because we're doing
00:44:14.400this, uh, you know, we're, we're pre-recording this, so we won't have all the information. So
00:44:18.180not only are you having to make a prediction, you're having to make it in, in, in the fog of
00:44:21.980war. However, I would be remiss if I didn't ask you this with everything going on in Minnesota.
00:44:28.140Uh, obviously we don't want to need to rehash everything we've talked about on the show,
00:44:31.780the shooting and whatnot, but there are continued protests happening. There are people being arrested.
00:44:38.120Uh, there is violence still going on that as severe, obviously no one is dead, uh, yet, uh,
00:44:44.080in Minnesota again, from, from conflicts with ice, but it's very clear that the left is continuing
00:44:48.740to try to build this George Floyd situation into a new, like winter of love, I guess is what we're
00:44:56.040looking for here going into, uh, you know, uh, different elections and whatnot. Do you think
00:45:01.500that that's going to continue to escalate? Do you think that the, there just isn't the passion?
00:45:05.980It's too cold. We don't have the NGO mobilization, or do you think they will get this off the ground
00:45:11.020and we will see continued violence in Minnesota?
00:45:14.980On Minnesota, I think that there will be not just in the state of Minnesota, but in other places in
00:45:20.140which ice is operating the revolutionary mindset of a lot of protesters and paid activists or those
00:45:26.780that have gone to be quote unquote legal observers, uh, which has been with the national lawyers
00:45:30.780guild. And if you want to read Burroughs's book, days of rage, you'll understand that that has
00:45:34.240basically been a legal arm to be eyewitnesses on the ground for various left-wing, uh, terror and
00:45:39.720actions, uh, in the past. So I'm not really surprised to see that this has taken place.
00:45:44.580Um, furthermore, you know, I know that we're talking about this in the past, but I think that
00:45:48.520it has been safe to say that a lot of revolutionary groups and a lot of people who want to put the
00:45:53.500law enforcement officials in the immigration and customs enforcement people up on the line,
00:45:57.740they want questionable optics and use of force, uh, because that mobilizes them,
00:46:04.260that galvanizes them and that does it. Um, but we also have trained to actually produce it like
00:46:08.500that it's not just that they went like they specifically have manuals and guidelines and
00:46:13.300training classes. Yeah. This is not a layman's organization. This is very much direct and in
00:46:20.540your face about this is planned. There's a lot of money involved and that's something that the DOJ
00:46:25.100really does need to go after. I do foresee that there will be, uh, probably more violence in the
00:46:30.800future on these questions and that there's also going to be the very ugly question in place about
00:46:38.500where the responses are going to be. Will there be more violence? I am afraid to make this prediction
00:46:44.260because I could obviously no one wants to be wrong, but I, my I'm, I'm cynical because I think
00:46:49.100that they want it to escalate. They want it to escalate that way. When things warm up after this winter
00:46:53.760passes, they have all these litanies of names that they can go off of and, and do it. Um, however,
00:47:00.940you know, the, the woman who had been, uh, shot by the, the ice officer, you know, it's not going to,
00:47:06.760no one's going to really riot in Minneapolis in the middle of January. It's too cold. And also it is a
00:47:11.880white lesbian, which again, if you're a white lesbian and you're on the left, you probably know somewhere
00:47:16.900in the back of your head that you are not valued, uh, because of your race and because of your
00:47:21.760identity, um, than say a black person is. And so it's going to be like an Aaron Bushnell situation
00:47:27.680where you will be forgotten, or you will be a person who they will argue that you shouldn't
00:47:32.700say rest in power over despite you dying for a supposed left-wing cause. Um, you're not Captain
00:47:38.080Marvel, you know, like this isn't a superhero movie where the 90 pound woman can somehow take on a
00:47:43.380bunch of, you know, train armored law enforcement agents and win. Um, as we saw what happens, you know,
00:47:48.060if you try to pull those things, there will be lethal consequences to them.
00:47:51.760And I think that the administration above all things in the wake of this violence and any more
00:47:55.340that follows, it really needs to tell its agents that we're on your side. You know, Andy Ngo who
00:48:02.200has almost been killed for his reporting on Antifa over the years had done some research and someone
00:48:06.720is threatening to hack or has a list of all those that have applied to be in ICE and with DHS since
00:48:12.060the Trump administration started. There is nothing stopping that list from coming out. And there's
00:48:16.220nothing stopping a new democratic administration from leaking that list to friendly and Antifa
00:48:21.680adjacent organizations to go after you and your families. So the administration needs to send a
00:48:26.720message right now. Not only are we supporting the officer who took these actions, but we will be
00:48:31.240supporting all of our agents against any threats to their home or their family or their person.
00:48:36.700Because if not, once they're out of office, the sword of Damocles is well over them and it's
00:48:40.700probably going to fall on their necks. So my prediction is, is yes, there will probably be more
00:48:44.360violence. There will be more rioting potentially if it does escalate in the spring as things warm up.
00:48:48.360But I think that there should be body cameras on every DHS and every ICE agent in the country who
00:48:54.300goes out on these raids because we saw that with police body cameras. This was a champion thing on
00:48:58.780the left and it has more or less validated every single use of force by police officers almost every
00:49:03.740single time. So I think that the same should be done for those trying to kick out the people who
00:49:08.780should not be in this country to begin with. And if you want to die for the people who shouldn't be
00:49:12.880here, then I don't have a country to share with you. I'm sorry. You have chosen the side of the
00:49:17.420invader. And I don't have as much sympathy as I probably should for you.
00:49:21.560Yeah, it's really important. If they hadn't had that cell phone camera footage from the officer
00:49:27.000who was struck in that attack, we might be facing a very different situation. So yeah, absolutely
00:49:33.140something that needs to be available should be made public immediately so people can know what's
00:49:39.900going on and the deceptive practices that many of these people are engaging in to generate exactly
00:49:45.220the type of situation you're talking about. All right, guys, we're going to go ahead and wrap this
00:49:48.800up. Once again, this is pre-recorded. So sorry, but we cannot take your questions today. If it's
00:49:55.000your first time on this channel, please make sure you subscribe on YouTube. Make sure that you click
00:49:59.920the bell, notifications, all that stuff. If you want to get these broadcasts as podcasts, you need
00:50:03.780to subscribe to The Orr McIntyre Show on your favorite podcast platform. Matthew, if people want to
00:50:09.160follow your work, where should they be going?
00:50:10.680Sure. You can find me on Twitter at Mr. Prudentialist. You can usually find the amphibious
00:50:15.360profile picture that I have on there. I'm also on Substack, theprudentialist.substack.com. There'll
00:50:20.120be a lot more essays in the works coming in for this year. I want to be really focusing on writing
00:50:24.820more. I want to keep that muscle as strengthened and as trained as possible. It says I'm on the air
00:50:29.420so often with people like you and your gracious invitation. Alongside that, I have a YouTube channel by
00:50:34.220the same name. I am often covering a variety of literature that is important to our political thought
00:50:39.220and today. A week from now when this comes out, I will have covered Georgia Sorrell's
00:50:43.940Reflections on Violence with my friend Dime as we have to show Do You Even Read? From there,
00:50:49.160there will just be more essays and things like that coming out both for the channel but as well
00:50:53.920as on Substack. As always, I'm grateful to have you on. Last but not least, I'll be on the upcoming
00:50:59.480issue of Frontier Magazine with Blaze Media. I'm looking forward to that being published.
00:51:03.820Excellent. Excellent. Of course, guys, if you want to read Matthew's articles along with all
00:51:07.940the other great Blaze content, of course, you need to not only be a Blaze subscriber but you
00:51:12.260need to have access to that Blaze Unlimited. You need to have that VIP upgrade so you can
00:51:16.980get that nice, beautiful, luxurious magazine in your hand every quarter. So make sure that
00:51:22.440you check that out. Thank you once again, everybody, for watching and as always, I will talk to you