Canceling the Institutions ｜ Guest： Lomez ｜ 6⧸12⧸24
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Summary
On today's show, I'm joined by Oren mccartan, a man who has risen like a phoenix out of the ashes of his recent dismissal from the Guardian. Oren has been a regular on the show for a long time, and has been one of the most vocal critics of big tech and big government in the conservative media. In this episode, Oren talks about his return to the show, why he decided to take matters into his own hands, and how he handled the fallout from his dismissal.
Transcript
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So joining me today is a man who I have enjoyed his tweets for a very long time.
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He's one of the first people that I followed when I jumped on Twitter
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and is now somebody who's causing quite a ruckus in, I guess,
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just living rent-free in their heads because he has not been destroyed,
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but has arisen like a phoenix from his cancellation.
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I think it was probably about a year ago, but now in my new form.
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Yeah, you're no longer just a JPEG, which is always nice.
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Yeah. So right before we had this show, actually,
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we'd had the schedule before, but right before this, like just yesterday,
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an article came out from, I believe, The Atlantic,
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talking about basically like how inconsequential your docs turned out to be,
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but it's also pretty funny because they're just outraged
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at how you didn't collapse under the weight of this.
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Can you talk a little bit about kind of how the Guardian article came out,
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how it shook out, and what's been going on since?
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Yeah, absolutely. So the Guardian article came out like a month ago,
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but the guy who was responsible for writing it had been harassing me for quite
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he'd been making phone calls to people close to me and he obviously had my name
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but I have no proof of how this guy got the name.
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this followed like what I understand to be the sort of MO of these journalists
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this whole like docs beat has been around for a while.
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So there was nothing new or novel about my case,
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except perhaps the new sort of political environment we're in.
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probably anticipated that these tactics they use to sort of unperson people
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It would make me sort of toxic to people affiliated with me in the sort of
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So like more mainstream conservatives who I've affiliated with people like
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like first things or the federalist or the American mind.
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The idea was that these people would have to disavow and distance themselves
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it'd be sort of an embarrassment for all these parties involved.
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And I would just sort of like shrink away and retreat back.
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I think it's probably worth talking about why in my case it didn't work,
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because there may be some interesting sort of sociopolitical changes and sort
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that have some relevance to our current moment.
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And maybe like not just what we might be able to do next,
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but where the sort of center of gravity is in terms of the discourse around
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some of these ideas that people like you and I have been talking about for a
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this is suggestive of the fact that some of these ideas are now okay to talk
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There's enough of this kind of self-confidence on the right.
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the people I've talked about or just spoke about previously to say,
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actually maybe it is time that we sort of consider some of these outer right
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ideas that may have previously been outside the Overton window.
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these may actually need a sort of fair hearing in the public discourse.
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sort of negotiate over their merits and whether or not that might lead to sort
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but there are other things related to me personally,
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why I think this is not been so sort of troublesome for me on a professional
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level that doesn't necessarily scale to other people.
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So I don't want us to get ahead of ourselves and sort of celebrate this idea
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that people should just come out from behind their anons that no matter who they
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are and what environment like professional environment they're in,
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they're going to be safe and they're going to be treated,
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that I've sort of experienced over the last month.
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So I want to be cautious about encouraging people,
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I wanted to talk to you about kind of the shifting nature of anonymity and
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So one of the things that's been critical for the left for a long time is to
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the loyal opposition is not allowed to talk to its more radical fringe.
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The left is always in dialogue with its vanguard.
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the left is led by its vanguard as you would imagine,
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but the right has had to ostracize there on there's on a pretty regular
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you could have certain ideas that would be on the fringe and you had to,
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maybe you wouldn't get to work in all of the think tanks.
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Donahue would have people on with all kinds of wild views and you could still
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operate more or less in polite society and expect to have a bank account and be
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able to get a home loan and these kinds of things.
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But with the rise of the internet and the way that the mob works,
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when I was working as a school teacher felt the need to go ahead and keep our
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make sure that we weren't sharing our identities out there because we knew it
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would be difficult to like maintain just a basic income,
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those kinds of things while also talking about the many things that we're
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I think there's been a big shift and now there are many mainstream
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I think this is really the critical thing is that even if they don't agree
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I don't know how to pronounce his name properly.
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when the rumors started circulating about him and,
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but he would just congratulated him on his thesis coming out.
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And it's one of those things where you don't have to line up with these
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we're listening to that guy can totally change the way in which,
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so one of the reasons that this is happening in my view,
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it's sort of born out of this fact that the sort of conservatism,
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and then into the 2010s just proved not to be sort of equipped for the
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I point to the Obergefell decision as this kind of tipping point,
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this sort of cascade where you saw the sort of old Vanguard,
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concentration of kind of right wing mainstream ideas,
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conservatism took this really massive blow at the loss of Obergefell.
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And the whole thing sort of fell into disarray and sort of simultaneous to
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You also had the emergence of like the tea party,
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and this kind of populist sort of movement that was coming upward and,
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And so what this all leads to is this eventual realization that we just need
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the old ways of doing things aren't working or they're obsolete.
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But the truth is those guys did sort of more or less win the cold war.
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they served their purpose for the time in which that was a relevant kind of
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establishment and people in places of influence.
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but we need to have a more open environment in which these ideas could be
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the mainstream right has been divorced from their Vanguard.
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It's that what constitute the Vanguard gets pushed further and further and
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I used to watch like the McLaughlin group in the nineties,
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a show on PBS with my father and like the voice of the right that you would often see
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The things that Pat Buchanan was saying on PBS of all places in the mid nineties is
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a proto fascist far right that doesn't deserve to have a voice in the discourse at all.
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in addition to not being able to sort of interact with and exchange ideas with the
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what constitutes the Vanguard is really a kind of neutered sort of milquetoast version
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it's fascinating that what you discover is that most of the stuff that people are
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A mild pushback against George Bush was really the,
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And this really breaks through a lot of people,
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very seriously minded conservatives don't like the culture.
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But obviously we saw the effective of effectiveness of this to kind of break back through into the
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the Pepe's all this stuff actually allowed people to go ahead and,
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and then seriously engage with a form of right-wing thought.
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And the anonymity was really a key piece of that because it meant that people could go
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ahead and interact in ways that they otherwise wouldn't allow them to explore ideas that they
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There was a lot of anger from kind of the mainstream conservatives about the way that this
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Do you find it ironic that in a country founded by men who wrote under anonymous handles when
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they were working out the constitution that we now have this backlash from mainstream
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at these sort of attempts to scold anonymous writers for,
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as if that alone is indicative of a kind of like sordid mind or bad intentions or whatever.
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there's plenty of irony there and sort of hypocrisy,
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it's not surprising that these guys are trying to sort of guard their turf.
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there may be different sort of psychological reasons or for more personal reasons for not
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has been a subject to a lot of like nasty things said about him and maybe his daughter,
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And so it's sort of forgivable that he would like,
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when I wrote this long house piece for first things,
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And I just know because of people I know inside of first things that it was the most
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read article on that website over the course of like 12 months or a year.
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And what this I think indicated to people close to that world and sort of vested in this institutional
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bow tie button down world is that their ideas and the force of their ideas were losing out
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to the force and energy and novelty of these ideas coming from outside coming from this sort of wild,
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And there's a kind of like professional threat there.
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I think some of these people also have sort of genuine concerns about what people on our side are saying.
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And they think some of these things are bad or unethical or sort of betray conservative values,
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they're allowed to sort of have those opinions.
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But I think the sort of more aggressive attempts to sort of exile all of us and like,
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as Bill Buckley kicking the birchers out of the conservative movement really does stem from a kind of
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professional insecurity about whose ideas are going to prevail in the sort of coming years.
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nothing to be proud of with Buckley kicking out birchers,
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the shift in the way that doxuses have occurred,
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I think is important here because yours obviously now,
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journalists are angrily writing about how ineffective it was,
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this is not sudden that something that suddenly everyone should do or,
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But I do think it's worth talking about the way that this has shifted because it used to be that this was just a career death sentence,
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completely blacklisted for whatever institution you were a part of.
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actually there's enough of an ecosystem to where if somebody got doxed,
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There are organizations that would kind of pick them up off the ground.
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there's an infrastructure that started to build where,
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I've been reading Nick land essays on the blaze for like a year now.
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And I start to feel like we're at a moment where like maybe,
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we were talking about things that were out there a year,
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the window has shifted back so quickly that in a lot of cases,
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let's look at some of the recent examples of people who have sort of survived like doxes.
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he had written in a Slack chat or something were leaked.
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because I honestly don't remember what he'd said exactly,
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but it was like the kind of trigger words that might've previously made it impossible for him to find work in sort of mainstream conservative spaces.
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he had already kind of established a certain amount of social capital.
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He had demonstrated a certain ability to sort of be an effective,
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he had some protection based on some ethnic markers that may have been helpful for him.
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There's another example of someone who is not exactly in our space,
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And certainly his a non that was docs was saying stuff that was like way spicier than anything I was ever accused of saying.
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I think he got fired or lost his fellowship at the university of Austin,
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the like sort of Barry Weiss fake college thing.
00:20:06.380
did a bit of like self-blogging and saying that he was like a bad person,
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And if you look at Richard now and sort of how he's situated in the ecosystem,
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he seems not to have suffered any long-term consequences as a result of this.
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I hadn't yet accumulated the right amount of social capital needed to survive this.
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My publishing company wasn't self-sustaining at that point.
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I wouldn't say for sure I would have been toast,
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It would have been difficult to sort of find people to come to my defense,
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When I was sort of dependent on a salary from the university of California.
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Now I don't know that they could have technically fired me for some of my,
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but I'm sure they would have found a way and it would have been very difficult for
00:21:07.620
And I would have been in very difficult circumstances.
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So it just happened to hit at a time where I had accrued the right amount of social capital.
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I have just enough of these certain like ethnic markers,
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maybe to shield me from certain kinds of criticisms that others in my position would have maybe gotten.
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it's a confluence of a lot of different factors.
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go out of their way to like make themselves doxable thinking that they're going to survive it in the way that I have,
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This could be really difficult for a lot of people.
00:22:04.560
I don't feel like I have to apologize for anything.
00:22:06.460
I never said anything really that I think is beyond the pale.
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we can like have a discussion about where the line is,
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but I would encourage people who are walking this line between like public action,
00:22:22.320
actor and shit poster to think about the kinds of things.
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Think about what you're doing and where this project is leading you to.
00:22:42.360
this ecosystem requires people to like serve in a variety of different roles.
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I think I'm in this position who's sort of straddling this line.
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Just think about the kinds of things you're saying and think about how you're saying them.
00:23:01.260
I loved in the Atlantic article where they're like,
00:23:03.740
and may have used a homophobic slur on at least one occasion.
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I did have a gay acquaintance DM me recently saying that he was disappointed that I'd only used an
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he was hoping that I'd been a little bit more aggressive with that.
00:23:28.600
there's a certain kind of online literacy now that's in place where the way that we speak,
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the way that we conduct ourselves online is more legible to our audience and our sort of
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quote unquote customers and the people that we're trying to court.
00:23:48.060
I don't think I could have explained to like a fellow at the heritage foundation in 2016,
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like what some of these terms meant or why I was speaking in a particular way online in 2024,
00:24:08.960
They understand the sort of rhetorical conventions.
00:24:11.340
And also they've become totally inured to these kinds of smears that like these Antifa
00:24:29.880
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00:25:01.560
So I wasn't going to jump deep into the culture of creation thing at right here,
00:25:13.780
the way that they have advanced these ideas is actually in many ways,
00:25:18.080
inoculating them against some of these doxing scenarios?
00:25:22.500
so many of these mainstream guys are now adopting the language.
00:25:26.000
they're in contact with these ideas and these phrases and this kind of culture in a way that they never would have before.
00:25:34.600
alien to them because they're actually actively adopting it in an attempt to stay relevant.
00:25:38.980
And that's kind of the relationship you want with a base and it's,
00:25:43.480
The right hasn't happened for so long that it feels almost alien and new,
00:25:54.020
what I'll just call success in the cultural space is that you get attention.
00:25:59.960
You have ideas that have a certain kind of vitality and reach and they're potent and sort of salient and they help explain what's going on.
00:26:08.260
And they do so in a way that's novel and sort of sophisticated enough that it's attracting the attention of people in places of influence.
00:26:19.660
one of the benefits of being able to create this kind of like cultural capital is that it protects you from these sort of outward attacks.
00:26:31.840
Like you can spend then that capital on this sort of protection that you need.
00:26:41.540
I think with passage like when we did the Steve Saylor tour,
00:26:46.540
we go around the country and we bring Steve to like city to city.
00:26:50.020
And I see the people who come out and I'm certainly not going to say who they were,
00:26:54.720
but I can assure you that a lot of these people are in places of sort of influence and power.
00:27:03.660
if you are interested in seeing your political project move forward,
00:27:08.280
these are the people you have to have the ear of.
00:27:10.440
And so right now what I think I'm experiencing at least is there's a certain amount of status around what we're doing and people in these places of influence want a little bit of that status.
00:27:27.140
And if you are in the business of producing and conferring status on other people and you can,
00:27:34.200
you can sort of give status over to a particular cultural space,
00:27:40.360
and with power you can sort of protect yourself from attacks like from the guardian or wherever else.
00:27:50.700
I don't want to sort of like overdo exactly like how influential this space has been or sort of,
00:28:02.780
if we were losing on the level of sort of cultural potency,
00:28:10.440
I'd be gone and I would be sort of untouchable and perhaps all of us would be.
00:28:28.840
How do you feel about the response from the right as well?
00:28:37.380
there's a lot of speculation that some of the guys at first things might've been,
00:28:56.620
but there seemed to be some animosity that a guy like you could,
00:29:03.040
And people on the right would be welcoming you.
00:29:04.780
It is very clear that there are certain factions,
00:29:07.140
even of those who like to think of themselves as outside of the mainstream that found,
00:29:11.480
your ability to kind of just move on beyond this as a real problem for them.
00:29:19.380
I don't want to like psychologize these people because I don't know what's in their head.
00:29:27.620
like a kind of petty professional jealousy on some level.
00:29:33.360
because a lot of this to be perfectly honest with you is not about me,
00:29:39.520
And about the kind of people affiliated with BAP.
00:29:48.160
here are a bunch of people getting attention that we think belongs to us.
00:29:52.140
And we're going to try to prevent them from getting that sort of positive attention in the future
00:30:02.820
I don't think actually anybody at first things was a part of this at all.
00:30:16.260
I don't have any sort of proof that he was responsible.
00:30:19.320
I only know that he was asking around about me by name,
00:30:28.860
I think as the cultural sort of shift is happening,
00:30:36.260
this sort of sociopolitical shift is happening away from the sort of old guard,
00:30:43.980
anti-establishment into this new sort of uncharted space where people like you,
00:30:51.520
a non's generally people with these sort of like kind of off the wall ideas,
00:31:09.720
anti not just scary because they don't understand it.
00:31:16.880
but it's scary from a level of sort of professional status.
00:31:22.300
there is on the right a certain amount of zero sum scarcity mentality when it
00:31:37.600
We're lucky enough that at least for now passage is a profitable company.
00:31:42.940
So we don't have to depend on the largesse of like a donorship group,
00:31:52.320
the right wing information ecosystem depend on donorship.
00:31:56.460
And there's only so many of these guys handing out checks.
00:32:00.820
I think that these checks are not going to be written,
00:32:04.600
at least not in the same amount to the guys who used to get them and are
00:32:19.600
where we were trying to figure out what's best to do,
00:32:24.200
Because truthfully we share a lot of the same ideas and goals,
00:32:29.040
certainly you wouldn't see this kind of friction there.
00:32:34.900
We would start to try to create a bigger tent around what we were doing and
00:32:38.960
and sort of try out a bunch of different stuff and see what was effective.
00:32:45.560
He's not afraid to try all sorts of different stuff and he's not afraid to
00:32:52.120
And whatever means we need to use to get there,
00:32:58.120
because speaking of speculation from factions of the right,
00:33:02.020
you mentioned the ethnic markers that might protect you here.
00:33:05.480
So there's been a lot of speculation that with your docs and,
00:33:09.820
and perhaps some others recently that the bath sphere is actually a Talmudic
00:33:14.440
network of people who are subverting the right wing,
00:33:18.460
bring bringing in all these ideas that are not actually interested in the
00:33:29.380
this whole thing has been planned from the beginning to kind of cement you
00:33:38.460
I don't want to be completely dismissive of this.
00:33:42.600
it's totally legitimate to sort of look around and think,
00:34:32.840
if not longer has sort of had a conspicuous amount of,
00:34:44.360
And I have all sorts of complicated theories about why that might be.
00:34:49.680
that might actually be a very interesting conversation to have.
00:35:11.600
now my own sort of private beliefs are fairly complicated,
00:35:17.760
they don't align with any kind of like Jewish or sort of Israeli,
00:35:34.700
what you're seeing too is like people who come from similar backgrounds who come
00:35:40.560
and sort of end up in similar places in terms of education and are exposed to a lot of the
00:35:47.260
same ideas and experiences growing up and sort of see a lot of the same patterns emerging
00:35:53.060
and the culture do just sort of coincidentally end up self-sorting.
00:35:59.400
you sort of find people of like mind of like ability of like interest.
00:36:06.380
And this of course will have sort of ethnic dimensions.
00:36:17.840
if you look carefully and honestly at the output of someone like that or myself over
00:36:25.040
I don't think you would be able to reasonably make the case that there's like some kind of
00:36:34.560
That's designed to sort of manipulate and infiltrate the right,
00:36:58.080
you've already said probably not the best thing for people to rush out here and,
00:37:13.700
obviously Twitter is this weird space where anons are allowed to go ahead and operate in a way that they aren't in most social media platforms where you can gain a large audience.
00:37:35.200
he had always been pretty explicit about how much he didn't like internet anonymity.
00:37:41.820
And even though a lot of people have championed him,
00:37:46.180
And now we have this scenario where he is moving a lot of people who had been kind of drawn in by the blue check and everything in a space where they basically need to hand over their ID verification,
00:38:01.080
A lot of people have focused on that to go ahead and continue to be part of this program,
00:38:09.420
what do you think about how this is going to shift kind of the anon sphere?
00:38:16.880
of Elon and I have no like inside information here.
00:38:19.520
It's just kind of like my sense of him from the outside is that he really is like what he tells us he is,
00:38:24.880
which is this sort of Gen X Reddit libertarian more or less.
00:38:31.300
A kind of free speech Reddit libertarian who never to his credit went the way of sort of others of that kind of persuasion and just kind of got sucked into the sort of leftist board.
00:38:45.620
I think if you were to sort of like scratch Elon,
00:38:48.100
you'd find a kind of like 20th century classical liberal somewhere underneath it.
00:38:53.140
and so I think it's like attempts to sort of allow total free expression on Twitter to the extent that like he can get away with is earnest and probably good.
00:39:09.180
handing over info in order to preserve a blue check and be able to get paid for your post.
00:39:16.040
And actually I'm not even sure like what the exact,
00:39:20.180
does this mean you can't get a blue check if you don't hand over the info?
00:39:24.660
but it doesn't really matter for the sake of this conversation.
00:39:31.700
Elon Musk is a guy who runs like five major companies.
00:39:39.280
I think that's probably where his talents are best suited.
00:39:42.920
And when it comes to the kind of like administration and governance of Twitter beyond these super high level decisions about like,
00:39:58.960
trying to figure out like exactly how to operate and what decisions to make in terms of business partnerships or security partnerships in the case of,
00:40:08.240
And what we probably are seeing is a lot of the people who were previously at Twitter and the people interested in Twitter,
00:40:18.500
various three letter agencies or affiliated with,
00:40:23.980
the deep state are probably making a lot of those decisions on his behalf.
00:40:33.640
I don't necessarily trust that information given over to Twitter is necessarily safe,
00:40:41.960
even though I do basically trust Elon Musk himself.
00:40:49.120
You want to put everything into that basket of,
00:40:55.040
we still keep getting this kind of dispersal of responsibility at the end of the day.
00:40:59.680
do you really think like Twitter is Elon Musk's primary interest?
00:41:08.240
the last thing I want to talk to you about before we go to the questions of the people is the passage press.
00:41:18.800
we talk about a lot about building and the necessity of building and how we need alternatives,
00:41:23.060
but very few people take the action to go ahead and make this happen.
00:41:26.880
And not only do you start a publishing company,
00:41:30.080
but you went out of your way to create this patronage opportunity where,
00:41:41.580
And so we want to create a way that's going to incentivize people to get a little bit of reward and have a platform and create,
00:41:48.800
a level of prestige attached to the work that they're doing to kind of go ahead and,
00:42:03.120
the people that you now get to go ahead and publish,
00:42:05.360
what do you see is kind of the additional opportunities this creates for the ascension of a more right-wing culture?
00:42:14.400
I could not be happier with how this has gone over the last three years.
00:42:18.980
And I have to credit Michael Anton specifically here.
00:42:24.720
As I was sort of formulating some of the ideas around like the lack of a artistic patronage network on the right,
00:42:31.440
or any kind of patronage and patronage network for arts that isn't explicitly left wing.
00:42:38.100
Michael Anton wrote a essay about this and I am one seven seven six.
00:42:42.240
I can't remember the exact name of it has Tom Wolf in the title.
00:42:47.760
this sort of gave rise to the idea or help sort of,
00:42:56.980
I didn't really know what the audience was there.
00:43:05.500
And so it's been a remarkable success and well beyond anything I could have imagined.
00:43:11.460
and mostly the thing that I'm really excited about is the talent that has not just sort of emerged from this,
00:43:21.700
there was all along as was the original thesis,
00:43:25.360
this kind of latent talent that didn't have a place to sort of apply their trade to,
00:43:32.200
do their art or poetry or write their fiction or their weird,
00:43:43.740
mass of art artists and creatives on the right that before this,
00:43:55.380
And there's enough of it there and there's enough variation and sort of dynamism to it to give rise or at least be the initial seed for an entire artistic sort of subculture or ecosystem that is entirely self-sustaining.
00:44:10.900
And I think passage is just like sort of one note in that.
00:44:15.260
but I can imagine all sorts of other kind of shards,
00:44:24.840
you could imagine different kinds of like crafts and sort of artisan,
00:44:37.080
there is no sort of limit or boundary on what kind of creative energy might come out of this space.
00:44:48.560
this kind of credentialing or status mechanism,
00:44:58.020
Idaho and it's all our guys and it's our films and it's our music.
00:45:05.140
what happens when you do that is that you're no longer just grabbing the attention of people that,
00:45:19.720
that starts to bring in people from the outside,
00:45:22.700
like sort of normies who otherwise wouldn't know about what's going on in this space.
00:45:41.760
Have some conviction and faith and what we're doing and what you're doing or what your role in this might be,
00:45:50.340
We're going to be the last generation that gets that reference,
00:45:55.880
we're going to go ahead and pivot over to the questions of the people.
00:46:03.040
Is there anything coming out that you're excited about?
00:46:35.140
We have three new books of fiction coming out relatively soon,
00:46:40.160
He's this great Southern writer who was discovered in the first passage prize.
00:46:56.620
as someone like whose job is to write literature,
00:47:01.120
living in obscurity because we don't live in a sane world.
00:47:08.400
Justin Lee and editor of first things has a short story collection.
00:47:19.380
we have a full slate of books coming up next year from,
00:47:37.560
We have some great classics that we're reissuing.
00:47:48.760
we're putting out a box set of his stuff along with some really great out of print stuff.
00:47:55.900
I think very important sort of historical episodes around the Russian civil war.
00:47:59.500
So leading from like always with honor and Peter Rangel moving into some other,
00:48:10.560
Bolshevism and the kind of destruction that wrought on our politics and stuff that we've
00:48:16.380
sort of largely forgotten has kind of been written out of our grand narrative of the
00:48:21.440
So we want to reintroduce some of those stories as well.
00:48:27.700
definitely make sure you check out all the passage stuff.
00:48:30.260
I already have several of the books that were very nicely produced by the way.
00:48:45.280
whenever you get around to writing your next book,
00:48:55.320
Robert Weinsfeld here with just the super chat.
00:48:57.580
It looks like that Talmudic network already paying off there.
00:49:10.340
We are in the process of having Steve Saylor's book,
00:49:15.760
So that's definitely going to be something that's part of our sort of
00:49:24.480
one of the things we were doing is that we don't want to count on any
00:49:42.000
but we're going to kind of put something together on our own and do it
00:49:52.280
are producing multiple editions and some of them are like the,
00:49:56.140
the exclusive high quality ones for people who really want a beautiful
00:50:00.620
something to put on there really want to support.
00:50:05.820
So there's just a nice mix that every level of people can go ahead and
00:50:22.400
click the bell so you can catch these streams when they go live.
00:50:26.240
If you want to go ahead and get the broadcast as podcast,
00:50:28.160
make sure that you go ahead and subscribe to the Oren McIntyre show on
00:50:40.580
your local bookstore should also be able to go ahead and order it.