The Auron MacIntyre Show - Canceling the Institutions ｜ Guest： Lomez ｜ 6⧸12⧸24

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00:00:30.420 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.940 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.340 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.500 Before we get started, I just want to remind everybody that, of course,

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00:01:35.280 So joining me today is a man who I have enjoyed his tweets for a very long time.

00:01:40.980 He's one of the first people that I followed when I jumped on Twitter

00:01:44.760 and is now somebody who's causing quite a ruckus in, I guess,

00:01:49.980 the minds of the average shitlib journalist,

00:01:53.380 just living rent-free in their heads because he has not been destroyed, 0.52

00:01:57.220 but has arisen like a phoenix from his cancellation.

00:02:00.920 Lomez, thanks for joining me, man.

00:02:02.420 Hey, Oren. It's good to be back on the show.

00:02:05.060 I was on here previously.

00:02:06.480 I think it was probably about a year ago, but now in my new form.

00:02:10.860 So this is exciting for me to be back on.

00:02:14.620 Yeah, you're no longer just a JPEG, which is always nice.

00:02:18.800 That's right. I'm a real human being.

00:02:21.860 Yeah. So right before we had this show, actually,

00:02:25.620 we'd had the schedule before, but right before this, like just yesterday,

00:02:29.320 an article came out from, I believe, The Atlantic,

00:02:32.180 talking about basically like how inconsequential your docs turned out to be,

00:02:37.660 which is steals a little bit of our thunder,

00:02:39.540 but it's also pretty funny because they're just outraged

00:02:41.820 at how you didn't collapse under the weight of this.

00:02:45.320 Can you talk a little bit about kind of how the Guardian article came out,

00:02:49.220 how it shook out, and what's been going on since?

00:02:51.300 Yeah, absolutely. So the Guardian article came out like a month ago,

00:02:56.340 more or less,

00:02:58.000 but the guy who was responsible for writing it had been harassing me for quite

00:03:01.980 some time. You know,

00:03:02.940 he'd been making phone calls to people close to me and he obviously had my name

00:03:07.520 from someone.

00:03:08.880 I can speculate on how he got it,

00:03:10.920 but I have no proof of how this guy got the name.

00:03:13.980 Um, and you know, this,

00:03:16.380 this followed like what I understand to be the sort of MO of these journalists

00:03:20.920 going back to like 2016, you know,

00:03:23.760 this whole like docs beat has been around for a while.

00:03:26.620 So there was nothing new or novel about my case,

00:03:30.220 um,

00:03:31.140 except perhaps the new sort of political environment we're in.

00:03:34.820 And, uh, they, you know,

00:03:37.240 the people sort of operating these docs rings,

00:03:42.000 um,

00:03:43.220 probably anticipated that these tactics they use to sort of unperson people

00:03:49.680 they don't like,

00:03:50.540 uh,

00:03:51.360 has been fairly effective in the past.

00:03:54.180 And I presume they thought in my case,

00:03:57.180 it would do something similar.

00:03:58.560 It would make me sort of toxic to people affiliated with me in the sort of

00:04:04.700 public setting.

00:04:05.440 Okay.

00:04:05.740 So like more mainstream conservatives who I've affiliated with people like

00:04:09.580 Chris Rufo, for example, you, um, you know,

00:04:13.180 various outlets that I've written for before,

00:04:15.260 like first things or the federalist or the American mind.

00:04:19.600 The idea was that these people would have to disavow and distance themselves

00:04:22.840 from me.

00:04:23.940 And, you know,

00:04:24.600 it'd be sort of an embarrassment for all these parties involved.

00:04:27.340 And I would just sort of like shrink away and retreat back.

00:04:32.700 You sort of under my rock or, you know,

00:04:35.180 my mom's basement where, you know,

00:04:37.300 they presume I I'm coming from.

00:04:39.720 And that would be the end of that.

00:04:41.120 That would be the end of me.

00:04:42.040 That would be the end of passage.

00:04:44.260 And, uh, you know,

00:04:45.760 I think it's probably worth talking about why in my case it didn't work,

00:04:49.860 um,

00:04:50.620 because there may be some interesting sort of sociopolitical changes and sort

00:04:55.400 of factors that contributed to that,

00:04:57.040 that have some relevance to our current moment.

00:04:59.760 And maybe like not just what we might be able to do next,

00:05:03.880 but where the sort of center of gravity is in terms of the discourse around

00:05:08.500 some of these ideas that people like you and I have been talking about for a

00:05:12.780 long time.

00:05:13.740 And perhaps, uh,

00:05:15.420 this is suggestive of the fact that some of these ideas are now okay to talk

00:05:19.260 about that.

00:05:20.080 There's enough of this kind of self-confidence on the right.

00:05:24.600 And among various conservatives, uh,

00:05:27.140 like the,

00:05:27.560 the people I've talked about or just spoke about previously to say,

00:05:30.820 you know what,

00:05:31.640 actually maybe it is time that we sort of consider some of these outer right

00:05:36.440 ideas,

00:05:37.100 ideas that may have previously been outside the Overton window.

00:05:40.460 Uh,

00:05:41.460 these may actually need a sort of fair hearing in the public discourse.

00:05:45.900 I mean,

00:05:46.060 sort of negotiate over their merits and whether or not that might lead to sort

00:05:51.680 of better outcomes,

00:05:52.540 uh,

00:05:53.180 for conservatives.

00:05:53.840 And so I think,

00:05:55.580 um,

00:05:56.800 this is a sort of positive sign,

00:05:58.620 but there are other things related to me personally,

00:06:00.880 why I think this is not been so sort of troublesome for me on a professional

00:06:06.180 level that doesn't necessarily scale to other people.

00:06:10.000 So I don't want us to get ahead of ourselves and sort of celebrate this idea

00:06:13.940 that like the age of doxing is over,

00:06:16.880 that people should just come out from behind their anons that no matter who they

00:06:21.520 are and what environment like professional environment they're in,

00:06:24.980 they're going to be safe and they're going to be treated,

00:06:27.580 uh,

00:06:28.420 to the same sort of victory lap that,

00:06:30.720 that I've sort of experienced over the last month.

00:06:32.700 So I want to be cautious about encouraging people,

00:06:36.640 uh,

00:06:37.700 to either like dox themselves or,

00:06:41.180 you know,

00:06:41.960 maybe get a little loose,

00:06:43.560 uh,

00:06:44.220 with OPSEC.

00:06:45.620 Yeah.

00:06:46.180 I wanted to talk to you about kind of the shifting nature of anonymity and

00:06:49.900 why it might still be really important,

00:06:51.960 but let's begin at the beginning here,

00:06:53.780 I guess first.

00:06:55.220 So one of the things that's been critical for the left for a long time is to

00:06:59.460 deny the right access to its vanguard,

00:07:02.060 right?

00:07:02.460 To make sure that the mainstream,

00:07:04.800 right,

00:07:05.120 the acceptable,

00:07:06.060 right,

00:07:06.340 the loyal opposition is not allowed to talk to its more radical fringe.

00:07:11.180 The left is always in dialogue with its vanguard.

00:07:14.160 In fact,

00:07:14.440 the left is led by its vanguard as you would imagine,

00:07:17.360 but the right has had to ostracize there on there's on a pretty regular

00:07:21.340 basis.

00:07:21.660 There was a point at which,

00:07:22.720 you know,

00:07:23.160 you could have certain ideas that would be on the fringe and you had to,

00:07:27.260 you know,

00:07:27.400 maybe you wouldn't get to work in all of the think tanks.

00:07:29.600 You wouldn't be accepted in certain things,

00:07:31.160 but you could,

00:07:32.000 you were still employable there.

00:07:33.380 There was still a back and forth,

00:07:34.820 you know,

00:07:35.300 Donahue would have people on with all kinds of wild views and you could still

00:07:38.880 operate more or less in polite society and expect to have a bank account and be

00:07:43.140 able to get a home loan and these kinds of things.

00:07:45.060 But with the rise of the internet and the way that the mob works,

00:07:48.160 that has had to go underground.

00:07:49.920 So many people like yourself and myself,

00:07:52.180 when I was working as a school teacher felt the need to go ahead and keep our

00:07:55.680 faces hidden,

00:07:56.360 make sure that we weren't sharing our identities out there because we knew it

00:07:59.900 would be difficult to like maintain just a basic income,

00:08:02.780 take care of families,

00:08:03.640 those kinds of things while also talking about the many things that we're

00:08:06.540 talking about.

00:08:07.560 But like you said,

00:08:08.060 I think there's been a big shift and now there are many mainstream

00:08:11.480 conservatives who are willing to go ahead and,

00:08:14.640 you know,

00:08:15.000 talk about these ideas,

00:08:16.220 interact with these ideas.

00:08:17.420 And most importantly,

00:08:18.380 I think this is really the critical thing is that even if they don't agree

00:08:22.340 a hundred percent,

00:08:23.100 like I remember,

00:08:24.140 you know,

00:08:24.780 when,

00:08:25.160 when,

00:08:25.580 um,

00:08:26.660 sorry,

00:08:27.560 I don't know how to pronounce his name properly.

00:08:29.420 Uh,

00:08:30.000 uh,

00:08:30.520 may or may not be BAP.

00:08:32.220 The obscure,

00:08:33.000 uh,

00:08:33.500 reader of Plato.

00:08:34.620 Yes.

00:08:35.060 Yes.

00:08:35.300 Yeah.

00:08:35.600 Yeah.

00:08:35.740 Um,

00:08:36.280 when,

00:08:36.680 when,

00:08:37.300 when,

00:08:37.840 when the rumors started circulating about him and,

00:08:40.080 you know,

00:08:40.160 it came out Rufo,

00:08:41.560 you know,

00:08:41.860 Chris,

00:08:42.200 you know,

00:08:42.500 may,

00:08:42.760 may or may not agree with him,

00:08:43.880 but he would just congratulated him on his thesis coming out.

00:08:46.640 Right.

00:08:46.860 Like he,

00:08:47.240 on his book coming out.

00:08:48.160 And it's one of those things where you don't have to line up with these

00:08:50.620 people a hundred percent,

00:08:51.300 but just having a few mainstream,

00:08:52.900 uh,

00:08:54.360 conservatives,

00:08:55.400 it just kind of shrug or be like,

00:08:56.680 yeah,

00:08:56.880 yeah,

00:08:57.080 we're listening to that guy can totally change the way in which,

00:09:00.780 uh,

00:09:01.160 you know,

00:09:01.440 one of these doxing situations plays out.

00:09:03.900 Absolutely.

00:09:04.260 And so,

00:09:05.300 uh,

00:09:05.580 man,

00:09:05.760 I have,

00:09:06.120 I have so much to add to this idea.

00:09:07.960 Um,

00:09:08.880 I think,

00:09:09.740 so one of the reasons that this is happening in my view,

00:09:13.380 um,

00:09:14.100 it's sort of born out of this fact that the sort of conservatism,

00:09:19.540 the mainstream conservatism that prevailed,

00:09:21.980 let's say through the Obama years,

00:09:23.860 the George Bush years,

00:09:24.740 and then into the 2010s just proved not to be sort of equipped for the

00:09:30.580 moment.

00:09:30.980 It didn't have sort of answers to,

00:09:34.260 sort of this leftist excess.

00:09:35.880 And,

00:09:36.740 you know,

00:09:36.860 I point to the Obergefell decision as this kind of tipping point,

00:09:40.920 this sort of cascade where you saw the sort of old Vanguard,

00:09:44.620 not,

00:09:44.800 not Vanguard of the right,

00:09:45.760 but the old sort of,

00:09:46.820 uh,

00:09:47.540 concentration of kind of right wing mainstream ideas,

00:09:51.120 you know,

00:09:51.320 national review,

00:09:52.420 national review,

00:09:53.080 conservatism took this really massive blow at the loss of Obergefell.

00:09:58.460 And the whole thing sort of fell into disarray and sort of simultaneous to

00:10:03.360 that.

00:10:03.580 You also had the emergence of like the tea party,

00:10:06.080 for example,

00:10:06.680 and this kind of populist sort of movement that was coming upward and,

00:10:11.140 you know,

00:10:11.780 getting,

00:10:12.140 uh,

00:10:12.800 I think rightfully sort of enraged about,

00:10:16.100 um,

00:10:16.820 things like the border,

00:10:18.300 for example.

00:10:19.460 And so what this all leads to is this eventual realization that we just need

00:10:26.260 new ideas.

00:10:27.320 Um,

00:10:27.920 the old ways of doing things aren't working or they're obsolete.

00:10:31.320 They may have served a purpose at one time,

00:10:34.300 you know,

00:10:35.100 the,

00:10:35.360 the,

00:10:35.940 you know,

00:10:36.140 I,

00:10:36.300 I,

00:10:36.620 I can be difficult or a harsh,

00:10:38.840 like on the people sort of still,

00:10:41.660 uh,

00:10:42.480 genuflecting at the ghost of Ronald Reagan.

00:10:45.260 But the truth is those guys did sort of more or less win the cold war.

00:10:48.440 So,

00:10:49.220 okay.

00:10:49.580 You know,

00:10:50.200 they,

00:10:50.400 they served their purpose for the time in which that was a relevant kind of

00:10:55.260 politics to practice.

00:10:56.560 But now in this new environment,

00:10:58.340 um,

00:10:58.880 that we've seen arise,

00:11:00.000 uh,

00:11:00.500 sort of after Obama and into where we are now,

00:11:03.080 we need new ideas.

00:11:04.800 And those ideas aren't coming from,

00:11:07.020 from the old,

00:11:07.660 uh,

00:11:08.400 establishment and people in places of influence.

00:11:12.180 And I think,

00:11:13.160 um,

00:11:13.740 they owe some,

00:11:14.960 um,

00:11:16.120 or they're,

00:11:16.480 they're owed some,

00:11:17.500 uh,

00:11:17.920 uh,

00:11:18.580 uh,

00:11:19.580 some thanks and,

00:11:21.680 and,

00:11:21.900 and for like demonstrating some,

00:11:23.840 some courage,

00:11:24.620 um,

00:11:25.380 for allowing these new ideas to percolate.

00:11:27.380 And like you said,

00:11:28.160 we're not going to agree with all this stuff,

00:11:29.780 but we need to have a more open environment in which these ideas could be

00:11:32.980 discussed and negotiated over.

00:11:35.240 Um,

00:11:35.520 last thing I want to add to that though,

00:11:37.160 is it's not only that the right has been,

00:11:39.960 the mainstream right has been divorced from their Vanguard.

00:11:43.100 It's that what constitute the Vanguard gets pushed further and further and

00:11:47.040 further left like every year.

00:11:49.080 And so,

00:11:50.100 you know,

00:11:50.840 I,

00:11:51.100 I talk about this before,

00:11:52.740 but,

00:11:53.240 uh,

00:11:53.520 I used to watch like the McLaughlin group in the nineties,

00:11:56.300 you know,

00:11:56.480 a show on PBS with my father and like the voice of the right that you would often see

00:12:01.160 was Pat Buchanan.

00:12:02.600 Okay.

00:12:02.900 The things that Pat Buchanan was saying on PBS of all places in the mid nineties is

00:12:08.700 what's getting me called,

00:12:10.220 you know,

00:12:10.500 a proto fascist far right that doesn't deserve to have a voice in the discourse at all.

00:12:15.960 And so there,

00:12:17.200 in addition to not being able to sort of interact with and exchange ideas with the

00:12:22.460 Vanguard,

00:12:23.520 what constitutes the Vanguard is really a kind of neutered sort of milquetoast version

00:12:29.280 of even what it was,

00:12:30.960 you know,

00:12:31.140 a couple of decades ago.

00:12:32.940 Yeah,

00:12:33.580 I agree.

00:12:34.180 It's,

00:12:34.460 it's fascinating that what you discover is that most of the stuff that people are

00:12:38.600 talking about now is the radical fringe.

00:12:40.320 We're just paleo conservative talking points,

00:12:42.800 right?

00:12:42.920 A mild pushback against George Bush was really the,

00:12:47.000 the extent to which this,

00:12:48.660 this radical right-wing,

00:12:50.740 you know,

00:12:51.800 thought space actually existed.

00:12:54.120 And so it's been very difficult for people to,

00:12:57.240 I guess,

00:12:57.440 hold these conversations.

00:12:58.960 And of course that creates the,

00:13:01.100 the,

00:13:01.520 the anon sphere,

00:13:02.860 right?

00:13:03.100 And this really breaks through a lot of people,

00:13:06.080 a lot of,

00:13:06.880 you know,

00:13:07.040 very seriously minded conservatives don't like the culture.

00:13:10.260 They don't like the memes.

00:13:11.260 They don't like the jokes.

00:13:12.480 They get very angry about all of that.

00:13:15.200 But obviously we saw the effective of effectiveness of this to kind of break back through into the

00:13:21.120 conversation,

00:13:22.340 the trolling,

00:13:23.060 the,

00:13:23.300 you know,

00:13:23.500 the,

00:13:23.700 the,

00:13:23.960 the Pepe's all this stuff actually allowed people to go ahead and,

00:13:28.160 you know,

00:13:28.260 first jokingly,

00:13:29.100 and then seriously engage with a form of right-wing thought.

00:13:32.620 Like you say,

00:13:33.040 it's not that radical was,

00:13:34.280 was pretty common up until recently,

00:13:36.420 but,

00:13:37.520 but needed to be reintroduced.

00:13:39.800 And the anonymity was really a key piece of that because it meant that people could go

00:13:45.380 ahead and interact in ways that they otherwise wouldn't allow them to explore ideas that they

00:13:50.900 wouldn't want to ascribe to their real name.

00:13:52.880 There was a lot of anger from kind of the mainstream conservatives about the way that this

00:13:57.820 operated Jordan Peterson frame,

00:13:59.600 you know,

00:13:59.780 famously raging against anonymity.

00:14:02.380 Do you find it ironic that in a country founded by men who wrote under anonymous handles when

00:14:08.020 they were working out the constitution that we now have this backlash from mainstream

00:14:13.640 conservatives against the idea of anonymity?

00:14:16.620 Yeah.

00:14:16.900 I mean,

00:14:17.320 you know,

00:14:18.540 I kind of laugh at,

00:14:19.680 at these sort of attempts to scold anonymous writers for,

00:14:25.740 you know,

00:14:25.840 whatever they're saying online and for,

00:14:27.100 just for the fact of being anonymous,

00:14:28.520 as if that alone is indicative of a kind of like sordid mind or bad intentions or whatever.

00:14:37.660 Of course,

00:14:38.440 yeah,

00:14:38.560 there's,

00:14:38.960 there's plenty of irony there and sort of hypocrisy,

00:14:41.140 but sort of from a psychological and,

00:14:43.980 you know,

00:14:45.120 discourse ecosystem perspective,

00:14:48.420 it's not surprising that these guys are trying to sort of guard their turf.

00:14:54.160 I mean,

00:14:54.380 I think in each individual case,

00:14:55.980 there may be different sort of psychological reasons or for more personal reasons for not

00:14:59.840 liking a non's. 0.99

00:15:00.760 I imagine,

00:15:01.920 you know,

00:15:02.180 Jordan Peterson,

00:15:02.900 for example,

00:15:03.440 has been a subject to a lot of like nasty things said about him and maybe his daughter,

00:15:09.940 you know,

00:15:10.340 online.

00:15:10.940 And so it's sort of forgivable that he would like,

00:15:14.160 not like this particular kind of discourse,

00:15:16.540 but I think,

00:15:17.740 you know,

00:15:18.180 he's,

00:15:18.500 he's missing the forest for the trees there.

00:15:20.420 And I think in the case of like myself,

00:15:23.620 when I wrote this long house piece for first things,

00:15:27.460 which started to gain a lot of traction.

00:15:30.180 And I just know because of people I know inside of first things that it was the most

00:15:34.560 read article on that website over the course of like 12 months or a year.

00:15:39.460 And what this I think indicated to people close to that world and sort of vested in this institutional

00:15:48.420 conservative,

00:15:49.400 you know,

00:15:49.680 bow tie button down world is that their ideas and the force of their ideas were losing out

00:15:58.380 to the force and energy and novelty of these ideas coming from outside coming from this sort of wild,

00:16:07.640 unconstrained environment of the Anon.

00:16:10.800 And there's a kind of like professional threat there.

00:16:15.820 I think if I'm being maximally charitable,

00:16:18.960 I think some of these people also have sort of genuine concerns about what people on our side are saying.

00:16:26.380 And they think some of these things are bad or unethical or sort of betray conservative values,

00:16:33.180 which is fine.

00:16:34.400 Of course,

00:16:34.720 they're allowed to sort of have those opinions.

00:16:36.680 But I think the sort of more aggressive attempts to sort of exile all of us and like,

00:16:44.740 you know,

00:16:45.100 imagining themselves as,

00:16:46.720 as Bill Buckley kicking the birchers out of the conservative movement really does stem from a kind of

00:16:52.700 professional insecurity about whose ideas are going to prevail in the sort of coming years.

00:17:04.160 Also,

00:17:04.700 nothing to be proud of with Buckley kicking out birchers, 1.00

00:17:07.200 but yeah.

00:17:08.720 So the,

00:17:10.060 the shift in the way that doxuses have occurred,

00:17:13.700 I think is important here because yours obviously now,

00:17:17.560 you know,

00:17:17.800 to the point where,

00:17:18.600 you know,

00:17:19.400 journalists are angrily writing about how ineffective it was,

00:17:22.800 what was not,

00:17:23.500 was not very severe,

00:17:24.480 but this has been a slow process.

00:17:26.080 Like you said,

00:17:26.740 this is not sudden that something that suddenly everyone should do or,

00:17:29.640 you know,

00:17:29.760 should seek or these kinds of things.

00:17:31.680 But I do think it's worth talking about the way that this has shifted because it used to be that this was just a career death sentence,

00:17:37.020 right?

00:17:37.180 Like something like this came out and you,

00:17:39.320 you were just,

00:17:39.980 you know,

00:17:40.220 completely blacklisted for whatever institution you were a part of.

00:17:43.380 And then I would say about a year or two ago,

00:17:47.080 we started to see,

00:17:48.000 well,

00:17:48.400 actually there's enough of an ecosystem to where if somebody got doxed,

00:17:52.380 well,

00:17:52.760 there were people to pick them up.

00:17:53.900 There are organizations that would kind of pick them up off the ground.

00:17:56.460 There were things,

00:17:57.400 there's an infrastructure that started to build where,

00:17:59.760 you know,

00:18:00.220 it would,

00:18:00.680 it would lose you opportunities,

00:18:01.820 but it wasn't the end of your life.

00:18:03.380 But,

00:18:03.820 you know,

00:18:04.000 I've been reading Nick land essays on the blaze for like a year now.

00:18:07.620 Yeah.

00:18:08.020 And I start to feel like we're at a moment where like maybe,

00:18:10.840 you know,

00:18:11.440 you know,

00:18:11.680 something like your,

00:18:12.480 you know,

00:18:12.680 your docs comes out and it's like,

00:18:13.700 oh no,

00:18:13.960 he's,

00:18:14.260 he's just,

00:18:14.920 I feel like,

00:18:16.020 yeah,

00:18:16.200 we were talking about things that were out there a year,

00:18:18.580 a couple of years ago,

00:18:19.300 but now the,

00:18:20.220 the window has shifted back so quickly that in a lot of cases,

00:18:24.380 this just doesn't matter anymore.

00:18:26.740 Yeah.

00:18:27.260 So,

00:18:27.780 you know,

00:18:28.100 okay,

00:18:28.320 let's look at some of the recent examples of people who have sort of survived like doxes. 1.00

00:18:34.600 You know,

00:18:35.200 this happened to Pedro Gonzalez,

00:18:36.920 right?

00:18:37.660 Not terribly long ago,

00:18:39.760 you know,

00:18:40.020 things he had written in,

00:18:41.200 you know,

00:18:41.400 he's,

00:18:41.680 he's not in a non,

00:18:42.780 okay,

00:18:42.960 but things he had,

00:18:44.260 he had written in a Slack chat or something were leaked.

00:18:47.840 And,

00:18:48.420 you know,

00:18:48.540 he had said some untoward,

00:18:50.780 you know,

00:18:51.180 politically incorrect things.

00:18:52.440 because I honestly don't remember what he'd said exactly,

00:18:54.780 but it was like the kind of trigger words that might've previously made it impossible for him to find work in sort of mainstream conservative spaces.

00:19:04.560 I think in his case,

00:19:06.180 he had already kind of established a certain amount of social capital.

00:19:10.720 He had demonstrated a certain ability to sort of be an effective,

00:19:15.020 you know,

00:19:16.560 pundit and thinker in this space.

00:19:19.420 I think in his case,

00:19:20.800 you know,

00:19:21.060 he had some protection based on some ethnic markers that may have been helpful for him.

00:19:27.500 And so he was able to survive it.

00:19:29.980 Richard Hanania.

00:19:31.500 There's another example of someone who is not exactly in our space,

00:19:35.380 but adjacent enough.

00:19:36.560 And certainly his a non that was docs was saying stuff that was like way spicier than anything I was ever accused of saying. 0.59

00:19:45.060 And Richard's,

00:19:47.520 you know,

00:19:48.120 he faced a little bit of backlash.

00:19:49.980 I think he got fired or lost his fellowship at the university of Austin,

00:19:54.800 the like sort of Barry Weiss fake college thing.

00:19:57.440 But other than that,

00:20:00.120 you know,

00:20:00.980 he look,

00:20:02.100 his strategy would sort of apologize and,

00:20:05.060 you know,

00:20:06.380 did a bit of like self-blogging and saying that he was like a bad person,

00:20:10.160 but like Harper Collins,

00:20:12.060 who I believe was his publisher,

00:20:13.400 didn't drop his book contract.

00:20:14.920 They carried on.

00:20:16.360 And if you look at Richard now and sort of how he's situated in the ecosystem,

00:20:19.800 he seems not to have suffered any long-term consequences as a result of this.

00:20:25.060 And in my case,

00:20:27.060 you know,

00:20:27.320 I think had this happened to me a year ago,

00:20:30.540 I'd be done.

00:20:31.440 I'd be toast.

00:20:32.300 I hadn't yet accumulated the right amount of social capital needed to survive this.

00:20:36.780 My publishing company wasn't self-sustaining at that point.

00:20:40.500 I wouldn't say for sure I would have been toast,

00:20:42.720 but it would have been very difficult.

00:20:44.100 It would have been difficult to sort of find people to come to my defense,

00:20:47.000 perhaps.

00:20:48.760 And two years ago,

00:20:50.240 forget it.

00:20:50.820 When I was sort of dependent on a salary from the university of California.

00:20:56.300 Now I don't know that they could have technically fired me for some of my,

00:21:00.860 for this speech,

00:21:01.820 but I'm sure they would have found a way and it would have been very difficult for

00:21:06.260 me to have that career.

00:21:07.620 And I would have been in very difficult circumstances.

00:21:09.920 So it just happened to hit at a time where I had accrued the right amount of social capital.

00:21:15.300 And I think again,

00:21:16.580 as with Pedro,

00:21:17.860 I have just enough of these certain like ethnic markers, 0.99

00:21:21.500 maybe to shield me from certain kinds of criticisms that others in my position would have maybe gotten.

00:21:28.900 And so,

00:21:29.560 you know,

00:21:30.120 it's a confluence of a lot of different factors.

00:21:32.820 And again,

00:21:34.020 I would not encourage other people to sort of,

00:21:37.860 you know,

00:21:38.700 go out of their way to like make themselves doxable thinking that they're going to survive it in the way that I have,

00:21:46.460 or that Richard did or whatever.

00:21:49.240 This could be really difficult for a lot of people.

00:21:52.320 And again,

00:21:53.360 in my case,

00:21:54.100 I think part of the benefit here is look,

00:21:57.720 if you look,

00:21:58.620 if you go and look at the stuff I said,

00:22:00.180 it really just isn't that bad.

00:22:01.880 I mean,

00:22:02.100 I have to be honest,

00:22:02.940 like,

00:22:03.420 and,

00:22:03.560 and so I never,

00:22:04.560 I don't feel like I have to apologize for anything.

00:22:06.460 I never said anything really that I think is beyond the pale.

00:22:11.240 It's sort of defensible.

00:22:13.260 And,

00:22:13.760 you know,

00:22:14.260 we can like have a discussion about where the line is,

00:22:16.640 but I would encourage people who are walking this line between like public action,

00:22:22.320 actor and shit poster to think about the kinds of things.

00:22:27.060 I don't want them to censor. 0.99

00:22:28.200 I don't want them to censor.

00:22:28.960 I don't want people to censor,

00:22:29.960 but just like,

00:22:30.700 think about it.

00:22:31.380 Think about what you're doing and where this project is leading you to. 1.00

00:22:35.060 If you just want to be a shit poster, 1.00

00:22:36.940 then do that. 1.00

00:22:37.860 And that's great. 0.99

00:22:38.600 And God bless all our shit posters out there. 0.99

00:22:41.840 This, 0.99

00:22:42.360 this ecosystem requires people to like serve in a variety of different roles.

00:22:47.380 But if you're like one of these people,

00:22:49.160 I think you're in this position.

00:22:50.620 I think I'm in this position who's sort of straddling this line.

00:22:54.840 Just think about the kinds of things you're saying and think about how you're saying them.

00:22:59.100 Okay.

00:22:59.660 Make yourself defensible.

00:23:01.260 I loved in the Atlantic article where they're like,

00:23:03.740 and may have used a homophobic slur on at least one occasion.

00:23:07.320 It was like,

00:23:07.760 Oh boy,

00:23:08.400 you guys got them.

00:23:09.240 It's over.

00:23:09.780 Like that's devastating.

00:23:11.420 I did.

00:23:12.040 I did have a gay acquaintance DM me recently saying that he was disappointed that I'd only used an

00:23:19.900 offensive gay slur once.

00:23:22.020 Yeah. 0.92

00:23:22.240 He was,

00:23:22.740 he was hoping that I'd been a little bit more aggressive with that.

00:23:25.320 And I think again,

00:23:26.120 what that speaks to again,

00:23:27.400 though,

00:23:27.580 is like,

00:23:28.600 there's a certain kind of online literacy now that's in place where the way that we speak,

00:23:34.740 the way that we conduct ourselves online is more legible to our audience and our sort of

00:23:40.420 quote unquote customers and the people that we're trying to court.

00:23:44.460 That maybe wasn't so true in 2016.

00:23:47.120 Like,

00:23:48.060 I don't think I could have explained to like a fellow at the heritage foundation in 2016,

00:23:54.240 like what some of these terms meant or why I was speaking in a particular way online in 2024,

00:24:00.520 like all those guys read us.

00:24:03.380 Yeah.

00:24:03.640 They're all using the language. 0.58

00:24:05.240 And so,

00:24:05.780 and so there's this,

00:24:06.840 and so they,

00:24:07.840 they understand the language.

00:24:08.960 They understand the sort of rhetorical conventions.

00:24:11.340 And also they've become totally inured to these kinds of smears that like these Antifa

00:24:18.620 activists use when they,

00:24:20.320 you know,

00:24:20.720 call like Steve Saylor a white supremacist or,

00:24:23.640 you know, 0.97

00:24:24.100 proto-fascist or Nazi or whatever.

00:24:26.340 None of this stuff lands anymore.

00:24:28.200 It just doesn't stick.

00:24:29.880 When does fast grocery delivery through Instacart matter most?

00:24:34.700 When your famous grainy mustard potato salad isn't so famous without the grainy mustard.

00:24:39.560 When the barbecue's lit,

00:24:40.860 but there's nothing to grill.

00:24:42.240 When the in-laws decide that actually they will stay for dinner.

00:24:45.960 Instacart has all your groceries covered this summer.

00:24:48.520 So download the app and get delivery in as fast as 60 minutes.

00:24:51.840 Plus enjoy $0 delivery fees on your first three orders.

00:24:55.480 Service fees exclusions and terms apply.

00:24:58.100 Instacart groceries that over deliver.

00:25:01.560 So I wasn't going to jump deep into the culture of creation thing at right here,

00:25:06.400 but since you mentioned it,

00:25:07.640 like is,

00:25:09.020 is it the way that perhaps this,

00:25:11.260 this Twitter Vanguard has shaped the culture,

00:25:13.780 the way that they have advanced these ideas is actually in many ways,

00:25:18.080 inoculating them against some of these doxing scenarios?

00:25:21.520 Because like you said,

00:25:22.500 so many of these mainstream guys are now adopting the language.

00:25:25.580 They're,

00:25:26.000 they're in contact with these ideas and these phrases and this kind of culture in a way that they never would have before.

00:25:32.000 And so therefore they don't see it as alien,

00:25:34.600 alien to them because they're actually actively adopting it in an attempt to stay relevant.

00:25:38.980 And that's kind of the relationship you want with a base and it's,

00:25:42.760 and it's Vanguard.

00:25:43.480 The right hasn't happened for so long that it feels almost alien and new,

00:25:46.960 but it's actually a pretty,

00:25:48.400 I think normal way for things to advance.

00:25:50.120 I mean,

00:25:51.240 this is one of the benefits of,

00:25:53.780 you know,

00:25:54.020 what I'll just call success in the cultural space is that you get attention.

00:25:59.960 You have ideas that have a certain kind of vitality and reach and they're potent and sort of salient and they help explain what's going on.

00:26:08.260 And they do so in a way that's novel and sort of sophisticated enough that it's attracting the attention of people in places of influence.

00:26:17.800 And yes,

00:26:19.660 one of the benefits of being able to create this kind of like cultural capital is that it protects you from these sort of outward attacks.

00:26:31.840 Like you can spend then that capital on this sort of protection that you need.

00:26:37.380 It becomes a kind of shield because you know,

00:26:40.480 and I I've seen this,

00:26:41.540 I think with passage like when we did the Steve Saylor tour,

00:26:46.280 okay,

00:26:46.540 we go around the country and we bring Steve to like city to city.

00:26:50.020 And I see the people who come out and I'm certainly not going to say who they were,

00:26:54.720 but I can assure you that a lot of these people are in places of sort of influence and power.

00:27:01.440 And these are the kinds of people who,

00:27:03.660 if you are interested in seeing your political project move forward,

00:27:08.280 these are the people you have to have the ear of.

00:27:10.440 And so right now what I think I'm experiencing at least is there's a certain amount of status around what we're doing and people in these places of influence want a little bit of that status.

00:27:24.720 They gravitate toward that status.

00:27:27.140 And if you are in the business of producing and conferring status on other people and you can,

00:27:34.200 you can sort of give status over to a particular cultural space,

00:27:38.300 that's power.

00:27:39.700 Okay.

00:27:40.060 And,

00:27:40.360 and with power you can sort of protect yourself from attacks like from the guardian or wherever else.

00:27:47.580 And so look,

00:27:49.800 I,

00:27:49.960 you know,

00:27:50.700 I don't want to sort of like overdo exactly like how influential this space has been or sort of,

00:27:57.140 sound self-aggrandizing,

00:27:58.620 but if we were losing on the level of ideas,

00:28:02.780 if we were losing on the level of sort of cultural potency,

00:28:07.560 then this would be moot.

00:28:10.440 I'd be gone and I would be sort of untouchable and perhaps all of us would be.

00:28:15.800 But because we're kind of winning,

00:28:17.620 because our ideas have this purchase,

00:28:20.580 then we are allowed certain liberties,

00:28:24.820 let's say with how we can sort of talk and,

00:28:27.380 and behave.

00:28:28.840 How do you feel about the response from the right as well?

00:28:32.560 Obviously,

00:28:33.460 you know,

00:28:33.880 you,

00:28:34.080 you,

00:28:34.340 you've got some enemies,

00:28:35.580 you know,

00:28:36.360 the,

00:28:36.600 the lot,

00:28:37.380 there's a lot of speculation that some of the guys at first things might've been,

00:28:41.460 been involved in like,

00:28:43.140 I know you said,

00:28:43.640 you don't know,

00:28:44.220 you know,

00:28:44.520 how,

00:28:44.880 how the name eventually came out,

00:28:46.140 but like,

00:28:46.800 so Rob Amari,

00:28:47.880 you know,

00:28:48.460 coming out as if,

00:28:50.000 you know,

00:28:50.180 he's,

00:28:50.900 he's quite the bad-ass he's coming for you.

00:28:52.580 I'd be worried.

00:28:53.380 I'd be,

00:28:53.660 I'd be checking your,

00:28:54.540 your,

00:28:54.840 your drinks there,

00:28:56.160 man.

00:28:56.340 But,

00:28:56.620 but there seemed to be some animosity that a guy like you could,

00:29:01.060 you know,

00:29:01.320 you could be doxxed and it would be fine.

00:29:03.040 And people on the right would be welcoming you.

00:29:04.780 It is very clear that there are certain factions,

00:29:07.140 even of those who like to think of themselves as outside of the mainstream that found,

00:29:10.920 you know,

00:29:11.480 your ability to kind of just move on beyond this as a real problem for them.

00:29:15.760 Yeah.

00:29:16.240 I mean,

00:29:16.680 again,

00:29:17.760 I don't want to speculate about,

00:29:19.380 I don't want to like psychologize these people because I don't know what's in their head.

00:29:22.860 I don't know what they're motivated by.

00:29:25.160 Frankly,

00:29:25.560 it does sort of feel in some sense,

00:29:27.620 like a kind of petty professional jealousy on some level.

00:29:31.160 Here's a guy or group of people really,

00:29:33.360 because a lot of this to be perfectly honest with you is not about me,

00:29:37.740 but about BAP.

00:29:39.020 Yeah.

00:29:39.240 Okay.

00:29:39.520 And about the kind of people affiliated with BAP.

00:29:43.260 I'm like a proxy for BAP in this case,

00:29:46.260 but it really is like,

00:29:48.160 here are a bunch of people getting attention that we think belongs to us.

00:29:52.140 And we're going to try to prevent them from getting that sort of positive attention in the future

00:29:56.580 and refocus people's attention on us.

00:30:00.020 I don't want to,

00:30:02.040 I don't,

00:30:02.820 I don't think actually anybody at first things was a part of this at all.

00:30:07.660 I,

00:30:07.940 I,

00:30:08.240 I,

00:30:09.040 you know,

00:30:09.240 there are rumors flying around,

00:30:10.660 but all of them are unsubstantiated.

00:30:12.840 And even the SORAB rumor really.

00:30:14.940 And I said this online,

00:30:16.260 I don't have any sort of proof that he was responsible.

00:30:19.320 I only know that he was asking around about me by name,

00:30:22.360 leading up to the docs,

00:30:24.360 but nothing beyond that.

00:30:25.700 And so,

00:30:28.040 yeah,

00:30:28.320 I mean,

00:30:28.860 I think as the cultural sort of shift is happening,

00:30:36.260 this sort of sociopolitical shift is happening away from the sort of old guard,

00:30:42.180 let's say the,

00:30:42.940 the sort of status quo,

00:30:43.980 anti-establishment into this new sort of uncharted space where people like you,

00:30:49.660 people like me,

00:30:50.600 people,

00:30:51.120 you know,

00:30:51.520 a non's generally people with these sort of like kind of off the wall ideas,

00:30:57.900 you know,

00:30:58.120 people like Curtis Yarvin,

00:30:59.700 Nick land,

00:31:00.400 you know,

00:31:00.640 monarchists and NRX,

00:31:02.780 you know,

00:31:03.260 techno acceleration is,

00:31:04.840 this is all a little bit scary to,

00:31:07.780 to the old guard,

00:31:08.900 to the status quo,

00:31:09.720 anti not just scary because they don't understand it.

00:31:13.140 They're sort of intellectually and curious,

00:31:15.560 I think about a lot of it,

00:31:16.880 but it's scary from a level of sort of professional status.

00:31:22.020 I mean,

00:31:22.300 there is on the right a certain amount of zero sum scarcity mentality when it

00:31:28.000 comes to where money's going to come from.

00:31:31.360 You know,

00:31:32.020 a lot of these guys depend on donorships,

00:31:34.780 you know,

00:31:35.020 compact doesn't self-sustain.

00:31:37.280 Okay.

00:31:37.600 We're lucky enough that at least for now passage is a profitable company.

00:31:42.520 Okay.

00:31:42.940 So we don't have to depend on the largesse of like a donorship group,

00:31:47.040 but most people in the right wing discourse,

00:31:52.320 the right wing information ecosystem depend on donorship.

00:31:56.460 And there's only so many of these guys handing out checks.

00:31:59.620 And there's a concern.

00:32:00.820 I think that these checks are not going to be written,

00:32:04.600 at least not in the same amount to the guys who used to get them and are

00:32:08.480 instead going to go to other people.

00:32:09.960 So I think that's really,

00:32:12.240 you know,

00:32:12.580 at bottom,

00:32:13.580 what is motivating a lot of this,

00:32:16.120 because if it was purely practical,

00:32:18.540 like political practice,

00:32:19.600 where we were trying to figure out what's best to do,

00:32:22.620 like how do we advance an agenda?

00:32:24.200 Because truthfully we share a lot of the same ideas and goals,

00:32:27.800 at least in the short term,

00:32:29.040 certainly you wouldn't see this kind of friction there.

00:32:33.000 I would think there'd be more unity.

00:32:34.900 We would start to try to create a bigger tent around what we were doing and

00:32:38.960 and sort of try out a bunch of different stuff and see what was effective.

00:32:43.180 And this is again,

00:32:43.940 why I like Rufo so much.

00:32:45.560 He's not afraid to try all sorts of different stuff and he's not afraid to

00:32:49.000 win.

00:32:49.620 Okay.

00:32:49.900 He has a goal.

00:32:50.860 He goes out and achieves it.

00:32:52.120 And whatever means we need to use to get there,

00:32:54.840 you get there.

00:32:56.480 So I have to ask as well,

00:32:58.120 because speaking of speculation from factions of the right,

00:33:02.020 you mentioned the ethnic markers that might protect you here.

00:33:05.480 So there's been a lot of speculation that with your docs and,

00:33:09.560 and,

00:33:09.820 and perhaps some others recently that the bath sphere is actually a Talmudic

00:33:14.440 network of people who are subverting the right wing,

00:33:17.880 you know,

00:33:18.460 bring bringing in all these ideas that are not actually interested in the

00:33:22.920 wellbeing of the West and the people here.

00:33:25.300 What would you say to people who are,

00:33:27.700 who think that actually,

00:33:28.840 you know,

00:33:29.120 this,

00:33:29.380 this whole thing has been planned from the beginning to kind of cement you

00:33:32.480 as a thought leader and lead astray this,

00:33:34.860 you know,

00:33:35.360 this,

00:33:35.640 this new strain of right wing thought.

00:33:37.580 Yeah.

00:33:37.960 I mean,

00:33:38.200 look,

00:33:38.460 I don't want to be completely dismissive of this.

00:33:40.500 Okay.

00:33:40.960 Because like,

00:33:42.600 it's totally legitimate to sort of look around and think,

00:33:46.240 wait a minute,

00:33:46.720 like these guys,

00:33:48.320 there does seem to be some amount of Jewish.

00:33:51.640 Okay.

00:33:52.400 On this side of,

00:33:53.620 of Twitter and whatever's going on there.

00:33:56.160 And many of them,

00:33:58.540 myself included are sort of Michelin's or,

00:34:00.800 or like half Jewish,

00:34:01.960 you know,

00:34:02.440 I'm,

00:34:02.640 I'm Catholic on my mother's side.

00:34:05.000 Um,

00:34:05.840 so it's not like illegitimate to like think,

00:34:08.180 okay,

00:34:08.460 what,

00:34:08.800 what is this?

00:34:09.460 Is there something here?

00:34:10.760 Does this like indicate some larger plan?

00:34:14.600 Um,

00:34:15.400 I'm like totally okay.

00:34:16.880 And think it's fine to have that conversation.

00:34:19.660 I mean,

00:34:20.540 it,

00:34:21.080 there is no larger plan.

00:34:22.760 I think what we're seeing is,

00:34:24.440 and this has been true on the right,

00:34:26.080 actually for a long time,

00:34:27.300 like even on the right Vanguard going back,

00:34:30.800 you know,

00:34:31.560 at least a half century,

00:34:32.840 if not longer has sort of had a conspicuous amount of,

00:34:36.600 of Jews on it.

00:34:38.220 Um,

00:34:38.640 as does sort of Vanguard movements of,

00:34:41.160 of sort of all stripes.

00:34:42.460 Okay.

00:34:42.760 It's just like one of these things.

00:34:44.360 And I have all sorts of complicated theories about why that might be.

00:34:48.420 And,

00:34:48.700 and,

00:34:49.000 uh,

00:34:49.380 that,

00:34:49.680 that might actually be a very interesting conversation to have.

00:34:52.360 There's a,

00:34:52.920 there's a fantastic,

00:34:53.680 uh,

00:34:54.020 Robert McKell's quote about,

00:34:55.400 um,

00:34:56.000 you know,

00:34:56.300 the,

00:34:56.600 uh,

00:34:56.980 like the Jewish ability to organize.

00:34:59.100 It's like,

00:34:59.500 even in the realm of antisemitism,

00:35:01.380 Jews dominate in the,

00:35:03.220 you know,

00:35:03.400 and he's writing this in like the 19,

00:35:05.180 uh,

00:35:05.420 like the 1920s or whatever,

00:35:06.940 but yeah,

00:35:07.700 I mean,

00:35:08.320 okay.

00:35:08.620 Yeah.

00:35:08.940 Let's have that conversation.

00:35:10.040 That's fine.

00:35:10.780 Um,

00:35:11.600 now my own sort of private beliefs are fairly complicated,

00:35:16.140 uh,

00:35:16.820 and,

00:35:17.440 uh,

00:35:17.760 they don't align with any kind of like Jewish or sort of Israeli,

00:35:23.240 um,

00:35:24.700 project.

00:35:25.260 I,

00:35:26.040 uh,

00:35:26.320 am an American and my interest is,

00:35:28.460 is sort of firmly in America.

00:35:31.380 Um,

00:35:31.920 but,

00:35:32.560 um,

00:35:33.740 I would say,

00:35:34.160 you know,

00:35:34.400 what,

00:35:34.700 what you're seeing too is like people who come from similar backgrounds who come

00:35:39.880 from sort of,

00:35:40.560 and sort of end up in similar places in terms of education and are exposed to a lot of the

00:35:47.260 same ideas and experiences growing up and sort of see a lot of the same patterns emerging

00:35:53.060 and the culture do just sort of coincidentally end up self-sorting.

00:35:58.880 Okay.

00:35:59.180 You,

00:35:59.400 you sort of find people of like mind of like ability of like interest.

00:36:06.380 And this of course will have sort of ethnic dimensions.

00:36:10.960 Um,

00:36:11.360 but beyond that,

00:36:12.540 you know,

00:36:12.740 I don't think there's much to be mind here.

00:36:15.660 And I,

00:36:16.000 and I would certainly hope that like,

00:36:17.840 if you look carefully and honestly at the output of someone like that or myself over

00:36:23.740 a long period of time,

00:36:25.040 I don't think you would be able to reasonably make the case that there's like some kind of

00:36:31.780 nefarious crypto program here.

00:36:34.560 That's designed to sort of manipulate and infiltrate the right,

00:36:38.140 but you know,

00:36:38.800 that's the best I can do.

00:36:41.380 No,

00:36:41.880 fair enough.

00:36:42.480 Uh,

00:36:42.720 we'll,

00:36:42.980 we'll let,

00:36:43.540 we'll let people make their decisions.

00:36:44.800 As you said,

00:36:45.420 you know,

00:36:45.640 you're,

00:36:45.980 you're,

00:36:46.220 you're not cutting off the discussion.

00:36:47.520 You're not discounting the discussion.

00:36:48.860 That's,

00:36:49.660 that's the most important thing.

00:36:51.340 Uh,

00:36:51.700 so moving on to the issue of,

00:36:55.340 um,

00:36:55.900 overall anonymity.

00:36:56.920 So we talked about,

00:36:57.920 you know,

00:36:58.080 you've already said probably not the best thing for people to rush out here and,

00:37:01.480 you know,

00:37:02.100 declare themselves,

00:37:03.320 give that up.

00:37:03.860 Oh,

00:37:04.040 the error of the,

00:37:04.900 of the docs is over and this is all fine.

00:37:07.040 Now we're all weapons free.

00:37:08.340 What do you think about the shifts with Elon?

00:37:10.780 Because from the beginning,

00:37:11.980 when it came to Twitter,

00:37:13.700 obviously Twitter is this weird space where anons are allowed to go ahead and operate in a way that they aren't in most social media platforms where you can gain a large audience.

00:37:24.540 And when Elon came on,

00:37:26.780 we saw a big shift in the rules,

00:37:28.100 right?

00:37:28.540 We saw that people were,

00:37:30.160 had a lot more reach than they were able to.

00:37:31.820 A lot of people came back who had been banned,

00:37:33.740 these kinds of things.

00:37:34.560 However,

00:37:35.200 he had always been pretty explicit about how much he didn't like internet anonymity.

00:37:39.640 He had never,

00:37:40.440 he's never really wavered on that.

00:37:41.820 And even though a lot of people have championed him,

00:37:43.860 his other policies,

00:37:44.760 when it comes to free speech.

00:37:46.180 And now we have this scenario where he is moving a lot of people who had been kind of drawn in by the blue check and everything in a space where they basically need to hand over their ID verification,

00:37:58.540 notably to an Israeli company.

00:38:01.080 A lot of people have focused on that to go ahead and continue to be part of this program,

00:38:06.480 expand their reach,

00:38:07.240 possibly make money.

00:38:08.720 What do you,

00:38:09.420 what do you think about how this is going to shift kind of the anon sphere?

00:38:14.300 You know,

00:38:14.900 I think,

00:38:15.280 okay.

00:38:15.440 So my,

00:38:16.020 my read of,

00:38:16.880 of Elon and I have no like inside information here.

00:38:19.520 It's just kind of like my sense of him from the outside is that he really is like what he tells us he is,

00:38:24.880 which is this sort of Gen X Reddit libertarian more or less.

00:38:30.320 Okay.

00:38:31.300 A kind of free speech Reddit libertarian who never to his credit went the way of sort of others of that kind of persuasion and just kind of got sucked into the sort of leftist board.

00:38:44.980 I mean,

00:38:45.620 I think if you were to sort of like scratch Elon,

00:38:48.100 you'd find a kind of like 20th century classical liberal somewhere underneath it.

00:38:52.840 And I,

00:38:53.140 and so I think it's like attempts to sort of allow total free expression on Twitter to the extent that like he can get away with is earnest and probably good.

00:39:06.660 And when it comes to like,

00:39:08.880 you know,

00:39:09.180 handing over info in order to preserve a blue check and be able to get paid for your post.

00:39:16.040 And actually I'm not even sure like what the exact,

00:39:19.880 like,

00:39:20.180 does this mean you can't get a blue check if you don't hand over the info?

00:39:24.220 I don't know,

00:39:24.660 but it doesn't really matter for the sake of this conversation.

00:39:27.460 I think that's not really his decision-making.

00:39:30.700 I mean,

00:39:31.700 Elon Musk is a guy who runs like five major companies.

00:39:35.400 I think his real love is SpaceX.

00:39:39.280 I think that's probably where his talents are best suited.

00:39:42.920 And when it comes to the kind of like administration and governance of Twitter beyond these super high level decisions about like,

00:39:51.700 you know,

00:39:51.900 this is going to be a free speech platform.

00:39:54.100 I seriously doubt that Elon is,

00:39:57.340 you know,

00:39:57.900 getting his hands dirty,

00:39:58.960 trying to figure out like exactly how to operate and what decisions to make in terms of business partnerships or security partnerships in the case of,

00:40:06.660 of this Israeli company.

00:40:08.240 And what we probably are seeing is a lot of the people who were previously at Twitter and the people interested in Twitter,

00:40:16.680 whether they were part of,

00:40:18.260 you know,

00:40:18.500 various three letter agencies or affiliated with,

00:40:23.120 you know,

00:40:23.320 quote unquote,

00:40:23.980 the deep state are probably making a lot of those decisions on his behalf.

00:40:29.720 And I would be concerned about that.

00:40:33.640 I don't necessarily trust that information given over to Twitter is necessarily safe,

00:40:41.960 even though I do basically trust Elon Musk himself.

00:40:47.560 Yeah,

00:40:47.660 that is always the danger,

00:40:48.940 right?

00:40:49.120 You want to put everything into that basket of,

00:40:51.220 okay,

00:40:51.320 this guy is going to,

00:40:52.420 we're hoping for the CEO King,

00:40:53.940 but there's always this,

00:40:54.860 you know,

00:40:55.040 we still keep getting this kind of dispersal of responsibility at the end of the day.

00:40:59.540 I mean,

00:40:59.680 do you really think like Twitter is Elon Musk's primary interest?

00:41:03.700 Sure.

00:41:04.360 Yeah.

00:41:05.100 No,

00:41:05.300 I hear you.

00:41:07.380 So the,

00:41:08.240 the last thing I want to talk to you about before we go to the questions of the people is the passage press.

00:41:13.620 So obviously you started this competition,

00:41:16.860 which I think is great.

00:41:18.660 You know,

00:41:18.800 we talk about a lot about building and the necessity of building and how we need alternatives,

00:41:23.060 but very few people take the action to go ahead and make this happen.

00:41:26.880 And not only do you start a publishing company,

00:41:28.920 which is itself great,

00:41:30.080 but you went out of your way to create this patronage opportunity where,

00:41:34.820 okay,

00:41:34.940 we have artists.

00:41:36.240 They,

00:41:36.780 you know,

00:41:36.960 they can't probably do this full time,

00:41:38.900 especially,

00:41:39.480 you know,

00:41:40.040 given kind of their inclinations.

00:41:41.580 And so we want to create a way that's going to incentivize people to get a little bit of reward and have a platform and create,

00:41:48.300 most importantly,

00:41:48.800 a level of prestige attached to the work that they're doing to kind of go ahead and,

00:41:53.220 and incentivize this. 0.87

00:41:55.840 How,

00:41:56.500 how have you felt about the,

00:41:58.780 the competitions,

00:42:00.540 the creation of passage press,

00:42:02.400 its success,

00:42:03.120 the people that you now get to go ahead and publish,

00:42:05.360 what do you see is kind of the additional opportunities this creates for the ascension of a more right-wing culture?

00:42:12.260 Yeah.

00:42:12.620 I mean,

00:42:12.880 I'm,

00:42:13.300 I'm thrilled.

00:42:14.400 I could not be happier with how this has gone over the last three years.

00:42:18.980 And I have to credit Michael Anton specifically here.

00:42:24.720 As I was sort of formulating some of the ideas around like the lack of a artistic patronage network on the right,

00:42:31.440 or any kind of patronage and patronage network for arts that isn't explicitly left wing.

00:42:37.920 You know,

00:42:38.100 Michael Anton wrote a essay about this and I am one seven seven six.

00:42:42.240 I can't remember the exact name of it has Tom Wolf in the title.

00:42:46.520 And so,

00:42:47.380 yeah,

00:42:47.520 this,

00:42:47.760 this sort of gave rise to the idea or help sort of,

00:42:51.100 it helped me crystallize my own thinking on,

00:42:54.060 on this topic.

00:42:55.460 And when I started out,

00:42:56.980 I didn't really know what the audience was there.

00:42:59.020 Like,

00:42:59.240 is this a good idea?

00:43:00.280 Is this viable?

00:43:01.440 Is there an interest here?

00:43:02.840 And the,

00:43:03.260 the answer to that has been a resounding yes.

00:43:05.500 And so it's been a remarkable success and well beyond anything I could have imagined.

00:43:10.860 Um,

00:43:11.460 and mostly the thing that I'm really excited about is the talent that has not just sort of emerged from this,

00:43:19.440 but been sort of discovered by it.

00:43:21.400 There,

00:43:21.700 there was all along as was the original thesis,

00:43:25.360 this kind of latent talent that didn't have a place to sort of apply their trade to,

00:43:31.640 to,

00:43:31.920 you know,

00:43:32.200 do their art or poetry or write their fiction or their weird,

00:43:35.980 you know,

00:43:36.580 essays or whatever it is.

00:43:38.060 And so this really has,

00:43:39.060 and so this really has,

00:43:40.780 uh,

00:43:41.240 galvanized this,

00:43:42.640 you know,

00:43:43.280 uh,

00:43:43.740 mass of art artists and creatives on the right that before this,

00:43:49.860 I don't know that we really knew existed.

00:43:52.240 We might've suspected they,

00:43:53.600 they exist,

00:43:54.220 but they really do exist.

00:43:55.380 And there's enough of it there and there's enough variation and sort of dynamism to it to give rise or at least be the initial seed for an entire artistic sort of subculture or ecosystem that is entirely self-sustaining.

00:44:10.900 And I think passage is just like sort of one note in that.

00:44:14.580 Um,

00:44:15.260 but I can imagine all sorts of other kind of shards,

00:44:18.560 you know,

00:44:19.340 um,

00:44:19.720 coming out of this that includes film,

00:44:22.360 that includes music.

00:44:23.880 Um,

00:44:24.840 you could imagine different kinds of like crafts and sort of artisan,

00:44:29.140 uh,

00:44:30.320 uh,

00:44:30.560 style sort of,

00:44:31.660 uh,

00:44:31.960 uh,

00:44:32.160 create creatives,

00:44:33.280 you know,

00:44:33.520 people doing furniture or whatever else,

00:44:35.580 like,

00:44:36.380 um,

00:44:37.080 there is no sort of limit or boundary on what kind of creative energy might come out of this space.

00:44:44.460 And then from there,

00:44:45.860 you can also build out the sort of,

00:44:48.040 like you said,

00:44:48.560 this kind of credentialing or status mechanism,

00:44:50.880 uh,

00:44:51.940 like,

00:44:52.300 uh,

00:44:52.500 an award show,

00:44:53.440 imagine a kind of like South by Southwest,

00:44:56.340 but you know,

00:44:57.180 it's in Coeur d'Alene,

00:44:58.020 Idaho and it's all our guys and it's our films and it's our music.

00:45:03.960 And what,

00:45:05.140 what happens when you do that is that you're no longer just grabbing the attention of people that,

00:45:13.140 that are already captive.

00:45:14.280 Okay.

00:45:14.700 Like the audience we already have on Twitter,

00:45:16.620 once you can build something of that scope,

00:45:19.720 that starts to bring in people from the outside,

00:45:22.700 like sort of normies who otherwise wouldn't know about what's going on in this space.

00:45:28.300 And if you're making good stuff,

00:45:30.920 they will come,

00:45:31.960 you know,

00:45:32.280 the old,

00:45:32.760 uh,

00:45:33.060 line from field of dreams,

00:45:34.820 if you build it,

00:45:36.080 they will come.

00:45:37.160 And I think there's some,

00:45:38.220 you know,

00:45:38.360 it's very simple message.

00:45:39.720 There's something very true about that.

00:45:41.760 Have some conviction and faith and what we're doing and what you're doing or what your role in this might be,

00:45:48.240 build it and they will come.

00:45:50.340 We're going to be the last generation that gets that reference,

00:45:52.440 by the way,

00:45:53.040 and still old enough there.

00:45:55.440 All right,

00:45:55.740 man,

00:45:55.880 we're going to go ahead and pivot over to the questions of the people.

00:45:58.200 But before we do,

00:45:59.720 uh,

00:46:00.020 where should people go to find your work,

00:46:02.040 pick up things for passage?

00:46:03.040 Is there anything coming out that you're excited about?

00:46:04.960 You want to tell people about?

00:46:06.340 Yeah,

00:46:06.560 absolutely.

00:46:07.200 So,

00:46:07.500 uh,

00:46:07.800 Loma is on Twitter,

00:46:09.120 passage press on Twitter,

00:46:10.860 our website is passage dot press.

00:46:14.580 Um,

00:46:15.060 we have a bunch of great books for sale.

00:46:17.640 Uh,

00:46:18.120 we have man's world,

00:46:19.520 which is riding nationalist magazine.

00:46:21.220 That's going to be a quarterly magazine.

00:46:23.340 I encourage everyone to subscribe.

00:46:25.080 There's some really remarkable stuff in there,

00:46:27.580 some great art essays,

00:46:29.320 everything.

00:46:30.220 Um,

00:46:30.660 and it's really high quality,

00:46:32.000 like coffee table quality,

00:46:33.820 uh,

00:46:34.180 magazine.

00:46:35.140 We have three new books of fiction coming out relatively soon,

00:46:38.940 uh,

00:46:39.300 from BN Ebert.

00:46:40.160 He's this great Southern writer who was discovered in the first passage prize.

00:46:44.900 I mean,

00:46:45.140 really good,

00:46:46.080 not just like,

00:46:47.600 Oh,

00:46:47.780 okay.

00:46:47.900 He's good enough to like publish,

00:46:49.440 but I mean,

00:46:49.900 someone who in a sane world,

00:46:52.240 you know,

00:46:52.860 would have a sort of life as a fiction writer,

00:46:56.620 as someone like whose job is to write literature,

00:46:59.560 but who is,

00:47:00.700 you know,

00:47:01.120 living in obscurity because we don't live in a sane world.

00:47:03.540 And,

00:47:04.380 uh,

00:47:04.660 another guy,

00:47:05.440 Jack,

00:47:05.700 uh,

00:47:06.120 Spiezio wrote this great novel,

00:47:08.400 Justin Lee and editor of first things has a short story collection.

00:47:11.760 We have work coming out from your colleague,

00:47:13.780 James Poulos,

00:47:14.940 uh,

00:47:15.500 either in,

00:47:15.960 in late fall,

00:47:16.920 winter,

00:47:17.140 or,

00:47:17.460 or into next year.

00:47:18.580 Uh,

00:47:19.380 we have a full slate of books coming up next year from,

00:47:22.520 you know,

00:47:23.160 Taki,

00:47:23.780 Paul Godfrey,

00:47:25.060 uh,

00:47:25.300 Peachy Keenan's next book,

00:47:26.940 uh,

00:47:27.400 ride nationalist book,

00:47:28.840 a number of other titles,

00:47:30.620 um,

00:47:31.700 that,

00:47:32.080 uh,

00:47:32.320 you know,

00:47:32.500 from Spandrel,

00:47:33.420 another NRX guy.

00:47:34.900 Nice.

00:47:35.140 Um,

00:47:35.760 so anyway,

00:47:36.280 I could go on and on and on.

00:47:37.560 We have some great classics that we're reissuing.

00:47:39.700 There's an HP Lovecraft best of,

00:47:41.820 we have a Robert E Howard,

00:47:43.900 the great pulp writer,

00:47:44.920 uh,

00:47:45.520 famous for his Conan books,

00:47:47.260 the great new art.

00:47:48.400 Um,

00:47:48.760 we're putting out a box set of his stuff along with some really great out of print stuff.

00:47:54.560 Um,

00:47:55.000 dealing in some,

00:47:55.900 I think very important sort of historical episodes around the Russian civil war.

00:47:59.500 So leading from like always with honor and Peter Rangel moving into some other,

00:48:04.620 uh,

00:48:05.600 pieces of sort of episodes of forgotten,

00:48:07.320 like U S history,

00:48:08.720 20th century,

00:48:09.480 you know,

00:48:10.560 Bolshevism and the kind of destruction that wrought on our politics and stuff that we've 1.00

00:48:16.380 sort of largely forgotten has kind of been written out of our grand narrative of the

00:48:20.740 20th century.

00:48:21.440 So we want to reintroduce some of those stories as well.

00:48:23.900 And we'll be doing that over the next year.

00:48:26.560 Fantastic.

00:48:27.220 Yeah,

00:48:27.360 guys,

00:48:27.700 definitely make sure you check out all the passage stuff.

00:48:30.260 I already have several of the books that were very nicely produced by the way.

00:48:33.560 Uh,

00:48:33.960 you know,

00:48:34.620 it's not just a cheap mass production print.

00:48:37.120 It's,

00:48:37.300 it's a well done job.

00:48:38.220 So I appreciate that as well.

00:48:39.360 And Orin while we're on screen,

00:48:40.960 okay,

00:48:41.080 you don't have to answer here,

00:48:42.140 but now that Regnery is out of business,

00:48:44.080 whenever,

00:48:45.280 whenever you get around to writing your next book,

00:48:47.720 you come in for the next book.

00:48:48.840 Okay.

00:48:49.060 Yeah.

00:48:49.240 All right.

00:48:49.540 I'll,

00:48:49.980 I'll keep it in the Rolodex.

00:48:51.260 All right.

00:48:52.280 Uh,

00:48:52.640 let's see here.

00:48:54.480 Uh,

00:48:55.320 Robert Weinsfeld here with just the super chat.

00:48:57.580 It looks like that Talmudic network already paying off there. 0.92

00:49:00.300 Well done.

00:49:01.040 Uh,

00:49:01.440 it says,

00:49:01.860 uh,

00:49:02.100 Lopez,

00:49:02.400 can you publish audio books?

00:49:04.480 Yeah,

00:49:04.640 that is in the cards.

00:49:05.580 We have one coming out very soon.

00:49:07.300 We actually did a delicious tacos audio book.

00:49:10.340 We are in the process of having Steve Saylor's book,

00:49:13.120 noticing,

00:49:13.520 uh,

00:49:14.580 turned into an audio book.

00:49:15.760 So that's definitely going to be something that's part of our sort of

00:49:18.800 normal,

00:49:19.300 uh,

00:49:20.000 output,

00:49:20.440 um,

00:49:21.140 from here on out where we actually,

00:49:22.780 we're setting up our own studio.

00:49:24.020 I mean,

00:49:24.480 one of the things we were doing is that we don't want to count on any

00:49:27.780 other third party,

00:49:28.660 um,

00:49:29.360 for production,

00:49:30.320 for distribution,

00:49:31.080 for anything else.

00:49:31.980 We just know that over time,

00:49:33.680 we may not,

00:49:34.180 we may not be able to rely on them.

00:49:35.960 And so we want to do everything,

00:49:38.220 own everything ourselves.

00:49:39.500 And so,

00:49:40.540 you know,

00:49:40.740 it's a very modest studio,

00:49:42.000 but we're going to kind of put something together on our own and do it

00:49:45.440 right and do it ourselves.

00:49:46.580 And on every piece of this process.

00:49:50.120 Fantastic.

00:49:50.620 Yeah.

00:49:50.760 I also love that you guys are,

00:49:52.280 are producing multiple editions and some of them are like the,

00:49:56.000 you know,

00:49:56.140 the exclusive high quality ones for people who really want a beautiful

00:49:59.120 work and,

00:50:00.140 you know,

00:50:00.620 something to put on there really want to support.

00:50:02.420 And then of course you have the,

00:50:03.380 the wider releases you're doing audio books.

00:50:05.820 So there's just a nice mix that every level of people can go ahead and

00:50:08.660 enjoy what's,

00:50:09.160 what's being put out.

00:50:10.700 All right,

00:50:11.140 guys,

00:50:11.300 we're going to go ahead and wrap this up.

00:50:13.280 Thank you once again,

00:50:14.080 Lomas for joining me,

00:50:15.320 make sure that you check out all of his stuff.

00:50:17.280 And of course,

00:50:17.620 if it's your first time on this channel,

00:50:19.600 make sure you go ahead and subscribe,

00:50:21.260 turn on the notifications,

00:50:22.400 click the bell so you can catch these streams when they go live.

00:50:26.240 If you want to go ahead and get the broadcast as podcast,

00:50:28.160 make sure that you go ahead and subscribe to the Oren McIntyre show on

00:50:30.920 your favorite podcast platform.

00:50:32.760 And of course,

00:50:33.160 if you would like to get my book,

00:50:34.760 the total state,

00:50:35.480 you can do that through Amazon,

00:50:37.240 Barnes and Noble books,

00:50:38.200 a million,

00:50:38.640 anywhere that you find your average book,

00:50:40.580 your local bookstore should also be able to go ahead and order it.

00:50:43.500 If they don't have it already.

00:50:44.740 Thank you guys so much for watching.

00:50:46.260 And as always,

00:50:46.960 I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - June 12, 2024

Canceling the Institutions ｜ Guest： Lomez ｜ 6⧸12⧸24

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