The Auron MacIntyre Show - Candace Owens vs. the Daily Wire

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00:00:30.320 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.800 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.460 I am Oren McIntyre.

00:00:35.940 So, it was a crazy weekend.

00:00:38.500 I really couldn't believe everything that occurred this weekend.

00:00:41.720 Many of you probably heard the news that Candace Owens had been fired from the Daily Wire.

00:00:47.280 I wasn't really going to get into that.

00:00:49.300 It came out on Friday.

00:00:50.560 I didn't do my episode on that right away.

00:00:52.560 I wasn't striking why the iron was hot.

00:00:54.940 Because honestly, I already kind of did a video on this when the tensions between Owens and Shapiro first really came to a head.

00:01:03.900 When Shapiro called her, like, disgusting or whatever.

00:01:07.900 He was a video that came out.

00:01:10.220 I did a stream explaining my position on that back then a couple months ago when it first happened.

00:01:17.600 And honestly, not much had changed.

00:01:19.580 My position was more or less the same.

00:01:21.020 And I didn't want to rehash it just to go over some internet drama.

00:01:24.360 Seemed like a waste of time.

00:01:25.380 It's not really what I tend to do or cover on this channel.

00:01:28.620 It's not usually why people listen to the podcast or whatever.

00:01:31.800 So, I just wasn't really going to pick this up again.

00:01:34.140 However, Andrew Klavan, also of the Daily Wire, went ahead and did most of an episode of his show responding to this.

00:01:42.680 And he said some very interesting things that sparked quite a few debates on Twitter.

00:01:48.460 One of them was, believe it or not, on Palm Sunday, whether or not the phrase, Christ is King, is anti-Semitic.

00:01:58.100 I couldn't really believe that.

00:01:59.760 I logged on to Twitter after getting back from church, getting ready to go to the gym.

00:02:04.120 And that was the major debate on Palm Sunday.

00:02:08.820 I, yeah, you can't make this up.

00:02:12.820 So, I'm going to go ahead and touch quickly on what happened with Owens.

00:02:17.720 Though, that's not going to be the majority of what I talk about here.

00:02:21.260 I think the far more interesting thing is actually the reaction, both by Klavan and then the reaction to Klavan.

00:02:28.120 Basically, the cascading effect of kind of this response.

00:02:32.700 So, we'll get in briefly to what actually happened between Owens and the Daily Wire.

00:02:37.680 And then we'll go into the, I think, far more interesting question of the response to her being dismissed from that outlet.

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00:03:58.500 All right, so like I said, we're going to go over briefly the background to what happened here before we get into all the responses of Owens firing.

00:04:09.340 So, originally, Candace Owens, I've been following her for a long time.

00:04:14.260 I remember when she first appeared, really, on kind of this alternative internet commentariat space.

00:04:20.900 Back then, Dave Rubin was kind of starting his show.

00:04:24.040 He had just begun it, doing his kind of journey to the right and documenting it by having all these people come in, guys like Milo Yiannopoulos and things for this thing called Gamergate.

00:04:36.040 And all this stuff was kind of starting to blow up.

00:04:38.840 And Candace Owens was a leftist.

00:04:40.940 She was a leftist who was working on something called social autopsy.

00:04:44.720 It was this kind of service that was supposed to stop internet bullying by basically, it sounded like doxing people, more or less, collecting all of their information, that kind of thing.

00:04:54.460 She had raised money for it, I think, on Kickstarter and things.

00:04:59.220 And a lot of people turned on her.

00:05:01.060 I think, I guess she said some things that weren't leftist and people started to try to dox her.

00:05:05.520 And this kind of made her take her journey to the right.

00:05:09.660 And right from the beginning, she was pretty clearly going to be a rising star.

00:05:15.080 She's somebody who has a lot of talent.

00:05:17.080 She has an incredible verbal ability.

00:05:19.380 She delivers things very well.

00:05:21.880 She knows how to use the camera.

00:05:24.220 Candace Owens is an undeniable talent.

00:05:25.980 She's smart.

00:05:26.500 She knows what she's doing.

00:05:28.040 And so it was very clear that once she got a little bit of notoriety, the star was going to be on the rise.

00:05:34.380 And she rose up through the ranks, got a lot of attention, especially in her efforts in kind of the Blexit movement, the idea that a lot of black Americans would transfer their loyalty from the Democratic Party to the Republicans once they kind of understood the truth of how the Democratic Party used and abused black Americans.

00:05:56.560 You can kind of make your own judgments on whether that has been successful.

00:06:00.020 Many people are predicting a huge shift over to Trump this election.

00:06:05.180 I'm always skeptical because I've been told this is going to happen my entire life, and it never really materializes.

00:06:11.580 But maybe this will be the year.

00:06:12.920 And if it does, I think you could probably correctly credit Owens with a lot of that shift.

00:06:18.680 Now, Owens had made some interesting choices along her path.

00:06:23.260 She had befriended people like Kanye West, and that's a big deal when Kanye West, one of the most powerful, massive entertainment stars in the world, comes out and says, I'm going to support Donald Trump.

00:06:35.600 I'm leaving the Democratic Party.

00:06:37.080 That's a pretty big win in anybody's book, right?

00:06:40.480 Of course, Kanye West also said some things about the Jewish community that a lot of people found offensive.

00:06:47.220 And so her defense of people like Kanye West or association with Kanye West already probably put Candace Owens kind of at odds with the Daily Wire, which obviously was founded by Ben Shapiro.

00:07:01.560 And even though Ben Shapiro is not the manager, he's not the owner at this point, he still holds a lot of sway.

00:07:07.220 And obviously, he has a great attachment, understandably, to making sure that the Jewish people are not attacked, that that is something that he cares deeply about for understandable reasons.

00:07:18.240 He's Jewish.

00:07:19.100 His family's Jewish.

00:07:20.180 All of his relatives.

00:07:21.440 This is something that you can kind of get here.

00:07:24.280 And so obviously, that's going to put them at loggerheads right away.

00:07:27.100 Now, on top of that, you had kind of this building thing where it seemed like Candace Owens did not have the level of support for the nation of Israel that others on the network had.

00:07:40.180 Now, that should be fine.

00:07:41.640 Many people have differing opinions.

00:07:43.720 That's kind of what news networks are about.

00:07:45.960 And this is basically what I said in my original video.

00:07:49.180 You know, I'm on The Blaze, and the nice thing about being on The Blaze is at no point have I ever had anyone at The Blaze come up to me and say, hey, you can't say that.

00:07:57.620 Hey, you're not allowed to disagree about that.

00:08:00.320 In fact, I disagree with people all the time on The Blaze.

00:08:03.260 And it's never been a problem.

00:08:04.840 Sometimes we change each other's minds.

00:08:06.800 Sometimes we don't.

00:08:08.180 But we're still respectful of each other in that those differing opinions are, I think, what a lot of people tune in to look and hear.

00:08:16.720 Now, obviously, we are still primarily a right-wing, primarily conservative network.

00:08:23.240 And so most of our opinions tend to align along that point.

00:08:25.900 And that's kind of where The Daily Wire, of course, is as well.

00:08:29.160 And so you would expect there to be some level of unified opinion and then some level of differentiation.

00:08:35.420 Depends on how much nuance or basically how much variability is allowed inside the organization.

00:08:41.860 I'll talk about that more in a second.

00:08:43.420 The point being is that this all came to head really with the October 7th attacks with Palestinians terrorists attacking Israeli civilians.

00:08:55.120 The response to that was many and varied.

00:08:58.380 And I think that Owens basically had the approach of we probably should notice that there's a mistreatment of Palestinians by Israel.

00:09:10.440 That doesn't justify what Palestinian terrorists did.

00:09:14.860 It's still horrific.

00:09:16.180 But this is something that there are two sides to this coin.

00:09:19.140 There's a conversation to be had about the context here.

00:09:22.240 That was not something that was appreciated very clearly by Ben Shapiro.

00:09:26.920 Again, he was caught on a mic.

00:09:29.300 He was caught.

00:09:30.060 A video came up.

00:09:31.340 He was addressing some people in an event.

00:09:33.040 And he said that Candace Owens was disgraceful.

00:09:35.800 And it was like he was ashamed to have her on her network.

00:09:38.360 You know, that kind of thing.

00:09:39.640 And so obviously that kind of set up a collision course between Owens and Shapiro.

00:09:44.900 You get the feeling talking to Candace Owens.

00:09:48.240 And this is probably true of most media personalities, but you get a feeling talking to someone like Candace Owens that once somebody calls her disgraceful in public, there's going to be some problems, right?

00:09:59.780 This is going to be an ongoing feud.

00:10:02.280 And so you can kind of understand why that tension continued to build.

00:10:06.640 And Owens got more and more vocal about her criticism towards the nation of Israel.

00:10:11.520 And that really exacerbated her relationship with the people over at the Daily Wire, which is pretty clearly very supportive of the nation of Israel in general.

00:10:25.980 Now, again, like I said in my original video, I think that there should be a variant of opinion.

00:10:31.440 For instance, I think that Israel has the right to defend itself against terrorism.

00:10:36.480 But I am someone who is an American nationalist.

00:10:39.600 I think that the American nation is the one we should be worried about.

00:10:43.560 I don't think that America should be sending money or military aid or really anything else to Israel.

00:10:49.160 I wish Israel the best in its affairs.

00:10:51.660 But I don't think that's really anything I should be involved in.

00:10:55.160 It seems like there are some ways in which Israel treats its Palestinian populations roughly.

00:11:01.480 It seems like the conduct of the war is questionable in many areas.

00:11:05.520 I think you should be able to raise those questions without triggering any red flags because this is a foreign nation.

00:11:11.440 It's not the United States.

00:11:12.940 And your loyalty to that nation has should have no bearing on your credibility as an American political commentator.

00:11:21.940 We're Americans.

00:11:23.040 We should primarily be concerned about the well-being of America and what it stands for and the people inside of it.

00:11:29.220 Those kind of things.

00:11:29.840 And I felt like you should be able to express that.

00:11:32.720 Now, did Candace Owens eventually cross the line beyond those opinions?

00:11:36.480 A lot of people say so.

00:11:37.760 I'll be honest.

00:11:38.840 I don't watch a lot of Candace Owens these days.

00:11:41.080 I don't know everything she's said and done.

00:11:43.180 I've seen some of the things that she's been accused of saying.

00:11:46.440 I mean, she has gone out there and said some off-the-wall things.

00:11:49.520 She's talked about how the moon landing is not real and how, you know, the first lady of France is actually a man.

00:11:56.220 So it sounds like Candace Owens kind of gets out on a limb on a number of things.

00:12:00.640 And perhaps, you know, Israel and those kind of things is one of them.

00:12:05.340 I really don't know.

00:12:06.520 So the point is, the Daily Wire is, of course, a private organization and it has the right to hire and fire who it likes.

00:12:13.460 And we can talk about free speech and all these things.

00:12:16.100 But at the end of the day, people are going to have standards for what's said on their network.

00:12:21.460 They are going to have standards for what is presented to them.

00:12:24.160 Now, there is a little bit of, you know, kind of out of both sides of your mouth because when this firestorm first came up, Jeremy Boring of the Daily Wire, you know, kind of after everyone speculated on the feud, Jeremy Boring of the Daily Wire, who's the actual, he's actually the head.

00:12:39.420 He's one of the people in charge.

00:12:41.680 You know, Ben is not.

00:12:42.560 He's one of the hosts, even though he was a founding member.

00:12:45.060 So he's someone with a little more authority and he made it very clear that he would not be firing Candace Owens because of her positions on Palestine and the conflict between Palestine and Israel.

00:12:55.720 And so there was this understanding that, OK, yeah, we might disagree with what she said.

00:13:03.120 But and this was specifically what he said in the tweet was, you know, as long as she doesn't violate the terms of her contract, we pay our hosts to have opinions and she has opinions.

00:13:11.860 And so she does that. And that's kind of the end of the story.

00:13:15.700 So you kind of understand why people could be confused about Candace Owens being fired.

00:13:20.900 OK, well, she gave her opinion and now she's losing her job.

00:13:24.840 Again, there's always standards for what people say on a network and you can understand their right to go ahead and let Owens go if that's their choice.

00:13:33.540 But it does put you in a weird position.

00:13:35.840 I mean, Daily Wire and many people on the right, to be fair, talk a lot about free speech and cancel culture.

00:13:41.860 In fact, Daily Wire picked up Gina Carano, right, and put her in a movie because she was fired from Disney for viewpoint discrimination because she said something on Twitter that Disney didn't like.

00:13:53.880 And therefore, they, you know, she's like mildly right wing and their tolerance for that is basically zero.

00:13:59.380 And so that's why she got fired. And a lot of people who subscribe to these networks, you know, these conservative outlets do so because they expect to hear opinions that they wouldn't hear anywhere else.

00:14:10.780 And they expect them to kind of be able to say what they think.

00:14:13.880 And so there there is some, you know, there I could see how people make the case for hypocrisy there.

00:14:20.180 However, I think Owens knew what she was doing. Right.

00:14:23.040 Again, she had already created that tension had already been created, whether that was intentional by her or not previously through her support by people like Kanye West.

00:14:31.420 And once Ben Shapiro came out and I think, you know, kind of called her a disgrace or whatever, that was probably the last straw for her, right?

00:14:37.880 That her pride was not going to allow her to stay on that network for much longer.

00:14:42.640 And so she probably started pushing the envelope in a variety of different ways.

00:14:46.420 Was it her intention to ultimately to get fired?

00:14:48.500 Did she just want to prove a point?

00:14:49.880 I don't really know.

00:14:50.760 I don't know.

00:14:51.600 So my point here is, like I said, I don't this is not the main and interesting part of this.

00:14:58.060 Candace Owens was obviously on her way out of Daily Wire one way or another.

00:15:02.580 I think she had probably determined that and they had probably determined that.

00:15:06.620 And she was obviously pushing boundaries in ways that that was going to end that.

00:15:10.820 I think it's kind of up to networks, whether they want to platform certain people.

00:15:15.480 And then it will be up to conservative or right right of center kind of media consumers as to whether they want to respond to that.

00:15:24.320 Will people respond to the firing of Candace Owens by not listening to Daily Wire or cancel descriptions?

00:15:30.160 Maybe.

00:15:30.600 I don't know.

00:15:31.460 She was certainly a large host.

00:15:33.460 She's certainly one of their big draws.

00:15:35.900 Was she the single pillar holding them up?

00:15:39.120 Probably not.

00:15:40.240 You know, there are other big hosts there, of course, and they'll probably continue to draw people.

00:15:45.480 They'll probably see some hit.

00:15:46.620 But there is a question of credibility.

00:15:48.680 You know, did they lose credibility by cutting a dissenting voice?

00:15:52.940 Even if that voice kind of was making a kamikaze run, it seemed like to kind of exit that building.

00:15:59.760 Either way, only time will tell.

00:16:02.040 We'll just have to see.

00:16:03.420 But like I said, that's not really the interesting thing about Candace Owens getting fired from the Daily Wire.

00:16:10.420 That's mostly drama and kind of media background stuff.

00:16:13.940 And that's not really where my interest lies.

00:16:16.820 Where my interest lies is the response to this.

00:16:19.840 Because Andrew Clavin is, of course, one of their big hosts there.

00:16:23.640 And he did a response on this.

00:16:26.300 He does like an hour-long podcast.

00:16:28.620 And I say he dedicated about 30 minutes of actual talking time to the expulsion of Candace Owens.

00:16:35.280 Now, I've cut a couple clips out of it.

00:16:37.260 Really, only two.

00:16:38.340 The whole thing is worth watching.

00:16:40.840 I made sure to watch the whole thing to have the full context.

00:16:44.300 There were a lot of clips going around about what Clavin said.

00:16:49.640 And the way they were cut was not deceptive, to be clear.

00:16:52.700 But it was selective.

00:16:54.660 And so it didn't show some of the context.

00:16:56.900 And so I've tried to include a little bit of context.

00:16:59.100 Because as we go through this, I want to make it clear what Clavin said and what he meant.

00:17:03.920 Because I think what happened here with Clavin's response created quite the firestorm emotional responses of people.

00:17:12.020 I think there's a lot of background here.

00:17:14.780 It's not just about what Clavin said.

00:17:16.360 A lot of people who already had feelings about Owens and maybe some of her opposition to the state of Israel or questions about the state of Israel's behavior,

00:17:27.480 who were already kind of preloaded for this conversation, came in pretty hot to talk about what Clavin said.

00:17:33.040 And the same thing on the other side.

00:17:34.520 People who kind of want to see the knee-jerk, constant support of, blind support of Israel no matter what, at any cost.

00:17:44.380 On the right, also came in kind of preloaded here.

00:17:48.060 And I want to just play what he actually said.

00:17:49.940 Because I think that matters.

00:17:51.140 And I want to talk about how people responded.

00:17:54.140 Because I think that's really the most interesting thing about what happened after Owens left.

00:17:59.380 So I'll play a little bit of this at a time and we'll stop it and I'll kind of comment on what happened here.

00:18:05.520 Exactly 20 years since I acknowledged the kingship of Christ in my life.

00:18:12.620 And over the universe as well.

00:18:14.460 It's almost like two weeks and it'll be 20 years since my baptism.

00:18:18.340 It was hard for me to do.

00:18:19.780 It was hard for me to do.

00:18:20.600 I'm a proud man and I want to be king.

00:18:23.960 I want to be in charge of my life.

00:18:26.200 I want to take credit for the good things that happened to me.

00:18:29.240 I want to say, you know, what my opinion is about right and wrong.

00:18:33.680 I don't want to bend the knee to anybody.

00:18:36.000 And people who know me will tell you, I don't bend the knee to anybody except Christ the King.

00:18:41.560 And the day I took off my paper crown and bowed my knee before his crown of golden light,

00:18:48.980 I became a true man and a free man.

00:18:51.540 And the joy in my heart has only grown.

00:18:54.420 All right.

00:18:54.740 So why did I show you that?

00:18:56.740 That doesn't seem controversial.

00:18:58.020 It's because it isn't.

00:18:59.140 And I want to include that for a very important reason.

00:19:01.640 A lot of this debate started because people began the clip on Twitter of what I'll play next.

00:19:09.900 And that part will be more controversial.

00:19:12.000 They didn't include this part.

00:19:13.360 And I want to be really clear about who Andrew Klavan is and what he is saying here.

00:19:18.280 Because I think it would be malpractice to misrepresent him just so it could be more outrageous.

00:19:24.900 I like Andrew Klavan.

00:19:27.400 I think Andrew Klavan's an honest guy.

00:19:29.860 I do.

00:19:30.960 And I think he's a good guy.

00:19:32.660 And I think it's very clear here from the beginning of this clip that Andrew Klavan is a sincere convert to Christianity.

00:19:40.860 And this is a guy who really believes what he's talking about.

00:19:45.260 He really believes in Christ.

00:19:48.120 He finds it valuable in his life.

00:19:50.320 And he is willing to say that Christ is king.

00:19:52.560 The thing that people got angry about was the phrase Christ is king.

00:19:57.260 That's what people were arguing about online.

00:19:59.460 But I want to be really clear that Andrew Klavan is saying the phrase Christ is king.

00:20:05.240 Okay.

00:20:05.580 And it's very clear to me that Klavan is somebody who believes in his Christian faith.

00:20:11.460 Now, as we'll play this through, there are questions about some of Klavan's doctrinal understandings.

00:20:16.760 But it's okay, right?

00:20:18.220 Like, I'm not one of these people.

00:20:21.260 I'm not a theologian, as you will discover in this episode.

00:20:25.040 And I'm not one of these people who's like, man, if you haven't memorized every piece of theology, if you don't know every piece of doctrine backwards and forwards, then you're a fake Christian.

00:20:33.440 Like, that's insane.

00:20:34.320 I find it insane that people act that way.

00:20:36.980 Both Christian and non-Christian seem to believe this often.

00:20:40.260 Atheists seem to believe this just as often as sincere Christians do.

00:20:44.920 And so it's okay if Andrew Klavan doesn't live up to Christianity.

00:20:48.900 I don't, for sure.

00:20:50.220 I am a fallen person.

00:20:51.660 I am a sinner.

00:20:52.940 I am saved by the grace of God, to be really clear, just like Andrew.

00:20:57.320 And so I'm not here to judge Andrew's understanding of certain doctrines, if they're complete, or their application.

00:21:06.340 That's not for me.

00:21:08.780 It seems to me, from what I can tell, that Andrew Klavan is a good man who believes in Christ and sees Christ as his king.

00:21:16.520 And therefore, I take him on face value there.

00:21:20.400 I also know, you know, I've enjoyed Klavan's work.

00:21:23.980 He did that Another Kingdom thing with Michael Knowles.

00:21:27.760 I thought it was very cool.

00:21:29.320 And also, you know, Klavan, to his credit, is somebody who's listening to other voices.

00:21:34.380 My buddy Jay Burden, it was on his show recently.

00:21:38.940 Jay Burden is not a large name.

00:21:40.860 He's very kind of in the weeds.

00:21:43.720 And he's somebody who is not a normal conservative.

00:21:46.680 He's well outside of the normal conservative sphere.

00:21:49.620 And yet Andrew Klavan had him on a show for an extended discussion, was very cordial with him,

00:21:54.320 and seemed to be taking the things that he was saying, many of which were basically heresies against a large amount of conservative orthodoxy.

00:22:03.340 And he seemed to be taking them very seriously and listening to them and evaluating them.

00:22:08.540 I don't know if he agreed with everything.

00:22:10.260 I don't think he did.

00:22:11.120 But he's certainly somebody who's willing to take a chance, put somebody on his show who has a very different point of view, who has, you know,

00:22:19.300 Andrew Klavan got nothing for putting Jay Burden on his show.

00:22:22.820 He gets no, he gains nothing for that.

00:22:25.360 But he's willing to elevate an interesting and thoughtful voice with an opposing opinion and evaluate it seriously.

00:22:31.460 And I think you should take all of that into account as we go on with this clip, because I think that speaks to Andrew Klavan's character, more or less.

00:22:40.100 And so this is the least controversial part of the clip, but it's also why I got cut out of a lot of people who are playing out on social media.

00:22:48.380 And I thought it was important to go ahead and play that.

00:22:51.980 You know, when I did this, by the way, the priest who baptized me said, you know, Christians won't accept you.

00:22:56.680 You'll still be a Jew.

00:22:57.700 And I said, well, I am.

00:22:58.480 That's my race.

00:22:59.200 I'm a Jew.

00:22:59.540 I'm proud of my race.

00:23:00.760 It's a great race.

00:23:01.800 It's done many, many great things, including write the Bible.

00:23:04.600 All right.

00:23:05.100 So here's where we start with some things that probably wouldn't jive if Andrew Klavan wasn't Jewish.

00:23:11.580 Right.

00:23:12.120 So one of the things that conservatives talk a lot about is how much they hate identity politics.

00:23:17.800 Right.

00:23:18.500 We need to be colorblind.

00:23:19.800 We need to be unaware of race.

00:23:21.740 We should know these things.

00:23:23.080 You know, we should all just kind of be Americans, this kind of stuff.

00:23:26.520 And none of this should exist.

00:23:27.600 Right.

00:23:27.760 And that's a big thing that they argue against when it comes to the way that the left does

00:23:33.380 thing.

00:23:33.680 We're against identity politics.

00:23:35.460 The left is for identity politics and we're against it.

00:23:38.460 All of this.

00:23:39.880 Well, so.

00:23:41.160 OK, but Andrew Klavan just said he's proud of his race and for him, his race is his Jewishness.

00:23:47.580 Right.

00:23:47.720 His ethnic Jewish heritage is something he is proud of.

00:23:51.200 He's proud of his race and their accomplishments.

00:23:53.240 Now, I want to be really clear.

00:23:54.840 I hold nothing against Andrew Klavan or this pride.

00:23:59.340 I have no problem with this.

00:24:00.920 I have no problem with him expressing the sentiment.

00:24:03.400 There is nothing immoral about what Andrew Klavan just said.

00:24:06.660 I just don't think that that standard would be applied to most people in the conservative

00:24:11.920 movement.

00:24:12.460 Right.

00:24:13.080 Like, I don't think that it's OK for a lot of middle like white Americans to say kind

00:24:20.220 of the same thing that Andrew Klavan just said.

00:24:22.040 And if they did say that, I think a lot of people in the conservative commentators sphere

00:24:26.240 would probably lose their mind and denounce them immediately.

00:24:28.960 But Andrew Klavan can just kind of say that.

00:24:31.640 And it's not a problem at all.

00:24:33.220 And in fact, a lot of people who talk about getting rid of identity politics and all this

00:24:38.040 stuff are going to defend Andrew Klavan.

00:24:41.260 They're not even going to mention that clip.

00:24:42.940 And again, I've got no I'm not impugning Andrew Klavan's character about that statement

00:24:47.640 at all.

00:24:48.200 It's fine.

00:24:49.040 There's nothing wrong with that.

00:24:51.180 I just want to make it clear that no one else would get away with that in the conservative

00:24:55.280 movement.

00:24:55.860 That would not be OK.

00:24:57.640 Right.

00:24:58.800 You know, maybe you could have that with with black Americans, black conservatives.

00:25:03.220 You could have it with Andrew Klavan, Jewish conservatives.

00:25:05.660 You cannot say that with a large amount of the conservative base.

00:25:10.580 And so I just think it's interesting that he went ahead and said that.

00:25:14.900 And no one's really talking about that.

00:25:17.160 That doesn't seem to be a problem.

00:25:18.800 Just something to remember as we kind of get into the deeper dynamics of what what's going

00:25:22.840 on in kind of the rest of the clip.

00:25:25.160 And, you know, I am a Jew, but that hasn't happened at all.

00:25:27.860 Christians have welcomed me with open arms, except this Christ the King anti-Semitic

00:25:33.020 crowd.

00:25:33.820 All right.

00:25:34.500 So this is this is where things got heated.

00:25:38.560 Right.

00:25:38.900 And this is a mistake by Andrew.

00:25:40.820 This is really his own.

00:25:42.200 You know, his biggest mistake here is the framing of this.

00:25:45.720 There's a lot of ways that you could have framed, you know, people who are unkind to Jewish

00:25:52.880 people online, anti-Semitic people online.

00:25:55.320 But he specifically framed them as the Christ is King crowd.

00:26:00.280 Right.

00:26:00.980 Now, picking that phrase as the way to identify those who express racial hatred to you is a

00:26:08.600 problem.

00:26:09.460 Now, I understand that he probably has people who express anti-Semitic views and use that

00:26:14.240 phrase.

00:26:14.740 But identifying them by that phrase creates an immediate friend enemy distinction, creates

00:26:21.280 an immediate us and them.

00:26:23.020 It creates an immediate stigmatization of people using that phrase.

00:26:28.200 Now, Andrew Clavin just used that phrase.

00:26:30.080 Right.

00:26:30.220 So he's not saying that you can't use the phrase to be clear.

00:26:34.560 That's why I played this clip from the beginning.

00:26:36.680 I want to be very clear and very fair.

00:26:38.740 Well, that Clavin does and does not say in this clip.

00:26:42.160 However.

00:26:44.180 When he identifies the crowd, he's now going to demonize.

00:26:47.920 He's now going to call out their behavior as the Christ is King crowd.

00:26:52.500 This is the dynamic that is created.

00:26:55.180 OK.

00:26:56.180 And this is a problem.

00:26:58.240 We'll see how this gets exacerbated in a moment.

00:27:02.020 Christ is the King.

00:27:03.660 And one day every knee will bow and recognize it because he's not just my King.

00:27:07.680 He's King of the universe.

00:27:08.500 But when you use that phrase to mean that God has abandoned his chosen people, the Jews,

00:27:15.800 through whom he came into this world incarnate, and that he's broken his promises, his covenant

00:27:21.920 with the Jews, you are quoting scripture like Satan does in the Bible.

00:27:27.540 You are quoting scripture to your purposes.

00:27:30.580 And that to me is specifically wicked.

00:27:34.440 You know?

00:27:34.900 All right.

00:27:35.640 So there's a lot there.

00:27:37.900 There's a lot happening here.

00:27:39.200 And I knew this is where the discussion was going to go.

00:27:42.720 I knew this from the minute I saw this clip.

00:27:45.260 I knew it from the minute people decided to take this up as the issue from the clip.

00:27:50.220 And I understand why.

00:27:51.300 Because when the clip was cut, before Andrew Klavan goes into this long discussion about

00:27:57.200 how he came to Christ and his sincere faith in Christ, people can just scroll past it,

00:28:03.140 you know, so you don't understand how social media works.

00:28:05.280 And they can just go ahead and derive from this the idea that the phrase Christ is King

00:28:11.680 in and of itself is anti-Semitic, right?

00:28:14.920 That that is what he is trying to say.

00:28:18.220 That is not exactly what he is trying to say.

00:28:21.300 However, I knew that's where this was going to go, again, the minute I saw it online,

00:28:28.220 because this is how discussions branch, okay?

00:28:31.020 The minute that Klavan expressed his kind of friend-enemy distinction in this way,

00:28:37.300 once he started chastising specifically this phrase, that was going to be the battle line.

00:28:44.280 That was always going to be the battle line as soon as he characterized this as the phrase

00:28:48.400 that was problematic.

00:28:49.340 And the people who jumped in to want to defend Klavan went upon a kind of predictable path,

00:28:56.180 right?

00:28:56.380 Because Klavan doesn't just say that, you know, throwing Christ is King out and saying

00:29:03.180 Christ is King to people who are Jewish is a problem.

00:29:07.780 He says that he also makes a theological claim after that, right?

00:29:12.560 That there's multiple things nested in here.

00:29:15.980 And the issues are contentious and thorny and dangerous.

00:29:20.880 And so a lot of people just end up screaming about them rather than diving into them.

00:29:24.980 But we're going to do our best to parse the different things that are being said here.

00:29:29.820 So first, oh, sorry, I should play a little bit more of this because he says, I think he

00:29:34.700 says specifically about Ben Shapiro here.

00:29:36.620 When you spit that phrase at Ben Shapiro, my friend Ben Shapiro, and, you know, I understand

00:29:45.180 this.

00:29:45.540 All of you who love it, since I acknowledge the kisses, and that to me is specifically wicked.

00:29:53.180 You know, when you spit that phrase.

00:29:55.040 Okay.

00:29:55.360 So he talks about spitting that phrase at Ben Shapiro.

00:29:57.660 The point is, he is saying, when you use this phrase directed at Jewish people, it could

00:30:04.840 be anti-Semitic.

00:30:05.860 Now, a couple of things to clarify first.

00:30:08.300 The phrase Christ is King is never anti-Semitic.

00:30:11.100 It's never anti-Semitic.

00:30:12.500 I'm sorry.

00:30:13.060 Christ is King is just a statement of Christian faith.

00:30:15.780 It does not have that.

00:30:18.640 That is it.

00:30:19.420 It is true.

00:30:20.700 And you should say it no matter what, right?

00:30:22.760 That's kind of the point.

00:30:23.800 Whether people will label it anti-Semitic or not, you should say it because it's true.

00:30:28.660 And you need to have things that are axiomatically true if you're going to understand where you

00:30:34.420 are as someone who is, you know, religious, someone who has a faith.

00:30:39.420 That has to be true no matter what, no matter what its implications.

00:30:42.780 Now, I know that this phrase is not anti-Semitic because this is what Jesus said to Jewish

00:30:50.400 people.

00:30:50.780 And this is also what the disciples and apostles said to Jewish people.

00:30:57.940 They said that Christ is King.

00:30:59.640 Christ is Lord.

00:31:00.500 Christ is the fulfillment of the old covenant.

00:31:03.660 He is the Messiah.

00:31:05.940 Christ is King.

00:31:07.380 That's what Christ told the Pharisees.

00:31:09.720 That's what Christ told the Jews who listened to him.

00:31:12.640 That's what the disciples and the apostles told the people they were witnessing to, first

00:31:17.200 to the Jews and then to the Gentiles, but specifically Jews.

00:31:21.420 So if Christ can say it to Jewish people and the apostles can say it and the disciples

00:31:28.140 can say it to Jewish people, you can say it to Jewish people and not be anti-Semitic,

00:31:32.260 right?

00:31:33.200 Now.

00:31:34.280 So you've always been picky about your produce, but now you find yourself checking every label

00:31:38.780 to make sure it's Canadian.

00:31:40.840 So be it.

00:31:41.940 At Sobeez, we always pick guaranteed fresh Canadian produce first.

00:31:46.160 Restrictions apply.

00:31:47.140 See in-store or online for details.

00:31:52.520 The next part he says about this is that the implication of this is that it has broken

00:32:01.300 the covenant between the Jewish people and God.

00:32:05.400 That saying Christ is King is like some kind of, it implies that God has abandoned the Jewish

00:32:12.820 people, his chosen people, as Andrew Klavan says, and that's what's meant by Christ is

00:32:19.540 King.

00:32:20.460 All right.

00:32:20.800 So this, again, I knew where this is going, which is, this is why I wanted to do this stream

00:32:25.620 or why I had to do this stream.

00:32:26.840 Uh, because, because this is important.

00:32:29.240 So what Andrew is referencing here is a differentiation in theology.

00:32:38.100 Uh, there's dispensational theology and there's covenant theology.

00:32:43.000 Now, I don't know from what I could read.

00:32:45.400 Andrew Klavan is a, um, uh, I don't think he's a, I don't believe he's a Catholic.

00:32:51.780 Uh, I believe he's an Anglican.

00:32:53.660 It's, I don't know.

00:32:54.600 I don't know for sure, but what Andrew Klavan is, is kind of expressing and what he continues

00:33:00.120 to go on and express in this podcast is a dispensational view of Christianity and dispensational

00:33:07.300 Christianity is the idea that Israel and the church are separate entities that Israel has

00:33:15.040 its own ethnic national temporal identity separate from the church and that it maintains

00:33:23.660 that parallel with the church all the way to kind of the end times or near the end times.

00:33:30.420 And, uh, the, the other view is, uh, uh, is covenant theology.

00:33:34.740 Now covenant theology predates dispensational theology.

00:33:38.920 So to be clear, dispensational theology comes about in the 1800s.

00:33:43.340 It really grabs hold in the 1900s, uh, particularly among evangelicals, uh, though, uh, not all evangelicals

00:33:50.280 or dispensationalists, to be very clear, I am an evangelical, I am not.

00:33:53.280 So, you know, just, just to be clear, this is not me, uh, saying this is the, the broad

00:33:57.880 evangelical view, but I'm saying that is community is where it is prominent.

00:34:02.600 It is there.

00:34:03.780 And so, uh, in the covenant theology, which again, predates, uh, the dispensational theology,

00:34:10.420 it is older.

00:34:11.080 Uh, in covenant theology, there are different covenants and the old Testament covenant was

00:34:18.140 originally with the nation of Israel, but it is a continuous connection to the church.

00:34:23.260 The, the Israel and the church are not separate.

00:34:26.440 The Israel was the original is the beginning of the church.

00:34:30.380 It started with one nation, but with Christ that expands out to the Gentiles and the old

00:34:37.080 covenant is completed.

00:34:40.040 It is fulfilled with the coming of the Messiah as promised.

00:34:43.100 That's what Christ is here to do to fulfill the old covenant and create the new covenant.

00:34:47.560 And in the new covenant, it all transfers over to the church.

00:34:51.080 And so the promises of Israel are also the promises of church, of the church.

00:34:56.820 And it's saying that there's a continuation here that the, the, the people of God are,

00:35:01.520 it's a continuation.

00:35:02.300 There's not this break.

00:35:04.120 There's not this hard break of a, of a kind of ethnic, national, temporal, political Israel

00:35:10.660 and the church that, that, you know, that, that is a dispensationalist idea.

00:35:16.240 Now, as soon as I, Andrew said this, I knew what was going to happen is that people were

00:35:22.240 going to start saying that Christ is King is an anti-Semitic, uh, phrase used to deny dispensational

00:35:30.860 theology.

00:35:31.540 And sure enough, that's what happened.

00:35:32.920 A lot of conservative influencers jumped on the Twitter to say that anybody who, like,

00:35:39.960 like, uh, Andrew said, anyone who thinks that, uh, you know, kind of Christ being King,

00:35:44.700 Christ, you know, fulfilling the old covenant and creating new covenant is kind of the end

00:35:50.140 of, uh, kind of relationship between Israel and, uh, God.

00:35:56.200 And that's wrong.

00:35:57.160 Right now you can, a couple of things first, you can kind of see why if someone is anti-Semitic,

00:36:03.060 if they don't like Jewish people, just, they just have ethnic hatred, uh, for Jewish people,

00:36:08.040 you can see why they would prefer covenant theology because they don't want to see Israel

00:36:13.660 as its own separate thing with promises from God.

00:36:15.760 Okay.

00:36:16.160 Fair enough.

00:36:16.920 That does not make it true or false, right?

00:36:19.580 And that does not make covenant theology anti-Semitic.

00:36:22.360 It is most definitely not anti-Semitic.

00:36:24.720 Uh, and believing in covenant theology instead of dispensational theology does not make you

00:36:30.180 an anti-Semite.

00:36:30.960 But a lot of people suddenly showed up, a lot of conservative influences on Twitter showed

00:36:35.720 up to declare basically covenant theology anti-Semitic and to declare dispensational theology,

00:36:41.300 the one true Christianity.

00:36:43.160 And I knew this was going to happen, which is why I knew that Christ is King as a, as

00:36:48.640 a, you know, going out and stigmatizing the phrase Christ is King is a huge mistake, right?

00:36:53.340 Because it reveals a huge problem.

00:36:56.620 Okay.

00:36:57.580 One of the consequences of dispensational theology, especially again, among evangelical Christians

00:37:04.460 has been a dedication to the modern nation state of Israel.

00:37:10.180 And, or I should say very specifically the ethno state of Israel, which for some reason

00:37:15.560 everybody is fine with.

00:37:17.500 And so, uh, that, that has been a huge issue because that means that a lot of evangelical

00:37:24.120 Christians have had a knee jerk support for kind of whatever Israel is doing.

00:37:28.880 There's not a lot of questioning about what it does and you're not really allowed to question

00:37:32.880 what it does.

00:37:34.040 And any question of that is kind of an attack on Christianity and is of course anti-Semitic.

00:37:40.180 That shouldn't be the case.

00:37:41.720 Israel is a nation and like any other nation, it makes decisions and some of them are good

00:37:46.160 and some of them are bad.

00:37:47.300 And it has the right to defend itself just for the same reason, every other nation has

00:37:52.060 the right to defend itself, but it will be questioned about the way that it defends itself

00:37:56.300 in the same way that every other nation is questioned about the way it defends itself.

00:38:00.480 And ultimately the decision will be borne by the people of Israel and their ability to

00:38:05.180 kind of continue as a state.

00:38:07.000 But to be really clear, like Israel was not founded to fulfill kind of your biblical dispensationalism.

00:38:14.060 A lot of, again, because of the, the tenets of dispensationalism and dispensationalist Christianity,

00:38:19.360 a lot of evangelicals believe like the actual political existence of the nation state of

00:38:24.600 Israel is necessary for the fulfillment of their eschatology.

00:38:29.440 Like if you can just keep the nation of Israel around, Jesus will come back faster.

00:38:34.700 Uh, that's, I think a big failure.

00:38:37.920 I think, I think that's a theological failure.

00:38:40.520 However, uh, it is very popular among, among a lot of evangelical Christians.

00:38:44.560 And what this has created is a lot of knee jerk, uh, kind of, kind of very pro-Israel,

00:38:49.700 uh, pro-Zionist, uh, decision-making.

00:38:52.520 Again, I think you should be able to evaluate Israel as a nation state.

00:38:56.640 Is it doing good things?

00:38:57.900 Good.

00:38:58.400 They're doing bad things.

00:38:59.300 Good.

00:38:59.780 Uh, should we be involved in any of those things?

00:39:01.420 Not really, because they're a foreign nation.

00:39:02.780 Just like, I don't think we should be involved as much as possible in the affairs of foreign

00:39:06.380 nations in general.

00:39:07.260 I know plenty of Israelis who wish America was less involved in those decisions.

00:39:12.440 The point is that the evangelical interest in this, in dispensational theology has driven

00:39:20.760 a lot of decisions.

00:39:21.880 And so there's this weird kind of, um, hybridization of, uh, many parts of the conservative, uh, political

00:39:31.100 sphere with this theology, with dispensational theology.

00:39:36.260 And so any disagreement with Israel is therefore like an attack on God is an attack on Christianity.

00:39:42.380 Any recognition of alternative theologies like covenant theology that don't hold that

00:39:48.580 the political existence of the nation state of Israel is key to God's plan is, is considered

00:39:56.040 some kind of heresy.

00:39:56.940 And I saw a lot of people running around and enforcing this theological doctrine because

00:40:02.820 of this political speech.

00:40:04.400 Right.

00:40:04.680 And so what we have is a mass conflation of these ideas.

00:40:08.460 And this is why, this is one of the many reasons that there's a problem with, again,

00:40:14.300 the framing that Andrew Klavan laid out here, the Christ is King framing, because it immediately

00:40:20.860 kind of revealed, revealed this kind of truth.

00:40:24.080 And, and maybe it's just valuable that it gets revealed, but it's kind of important, important

00:40:28.300 for people to understand, to be really clear, like Christ is King is not anti-Semitic, but

00:40:33.920 if for some random crazy reason, it was the most important thing as a Christian is that

00:40:37.860 Christ is King.

00:40:38.740 Okay.

00:40:39.140 Like that should be your primary thing.

00:40:41.320 Then the ordering of goods, Christ is King is the most important thing.

00:40:46.800 Now, luckily we don't have to choose between those goods because it's not an anti-Semitic

00:40:50.040 remark.

00:40:50.460 Again, it was something said by Christ and his disciples and his apostles to many Jews.

00:40:57.740 So we don't have to worry about that conflict.

00:41:00.460 Now that said, you should not have ethnic hatred.

00:41:04.340 That's unchristian.

00:41:05.780 You should not hate people purely because of their race or their ethnicity.

00:41:09.880 That's bad.

00:41:10.840 Don't do that.

00:41:11.820 And the people who are criticizing, you know, attacks on Jewish people because of their ethnicity

00:41:17.920 should just do that.

00:41:19.180 They should just do that instead of trying to pick up this phrase.

00:41:22.780 Now understand why they did again, because some people do use it as a shibboleth and

00:41:27.580 yeah, you shouldn't do that.

00:41:28.840 You shouldn't throw that around.

00:41:30.160 But far worse actually is the stigmatization of that phrase.

00:41:35.100 Sorry.

00:41:35.720 Like you should not throw that phrase out at Jewish people.

00:41:38.600 You should not have ethnic hatred and you should not throw it out in some kind of spiteful

00:41:42.500 manner.

00:41:42.760 But it is true that Christ is king and Jewish people should hear that Christ is king.

00:41:47.200 It's okay to say that to Jewish people in love because that's what you should be doing

00:41:52.020 is witnessing to everyone, including Jewish people, about the fact that Christ is king.

00:41:57.940 But you should not hold malice in your heart towards people.

00:42:00.800 And you should certainly not use that phrase as some way to like dig on people.

00:42:04.840 That that's not good because you just shouldn't have the malice in your heart in the first

00:42:09.100 place.

00:42:09.620 But the stigmatization of the phrase crisis king is way, way, way worse than some charge

00:42:16.240 of antisemitism.

00:42:17.280 You should not be chilling people's use of that word.

00:42:20.560 And I know a lot of people said, oh, Clever didn't say that.

00:42:22.780 And I know that's not what these other conservative influencers are saying.

00:42:25.720 Okay, I get it.

00:42:26.840 Yeah, sure.

00:42:27.420 But that's the effect.

00:42:29.880 Sorry, it is.

00:42:30.820 If you tell people that a phrase is antisemitic or that it has antisemitic connotations, even

00:42:36.040 if it's not always antisemitic, they will still clear because they know what that means.

00:42:41.020 Okay, this is frankly the conservative version of yelling racist.

00:42:46.020 Because conservatives kind of got used to the idea that racist doesn't mean anything.

00:42:50.140 They understand it's used cynically.

00:42:52.400 But we still have this thing that antisemitism, you could throw that out at somebody and that's

00:42:57.140 still basically like a career ender that can destroy somebody.

00:43:00.760 And so they just throw that out there.

00:43:04.640 Again, and I'll say this several times, even though it's going to annoy people, but it's

00:43:08.960 just true.

00:43:09.660 You should not bear ethnic hatred in your heart.

00:43:12.000 And you certainly shouldn't try to throw out a phrase that is true, even though it is true,

00:43:17.080 because you think you're like scoring some points that you're showing someone up and

00:43:23.440 just out of like ethnic spite.

00:43:25.580 However, again, sorry, but the phrase Christ is king is paramount.

00:43:29.320 It is more important than any charge.

00:43:31.360 And you should not at any point try to chill that speech.

00:43:34.980 And you definitely shouldn't chill like the theological ramifications.

00:43:39.620 You definitely shouldn't run out and then use this to further your kind of theological ball.

00:43:46.280 Oh, well, sorry, but you have to believe in dispensational theology or otherwise you're an

00:43:50.920 antisemite.

00:43:51.480 Like that's gross.

00:43:52.500 And that's doing exactly what you accuse like Nick Fuentes and his and his groopers with

00:43:57.480 doing because that he'll get into he'll he'll point out that Nick Fuentes is is kind of and

00:44:01.340 that crowd is the the people he's angry at.

00:44:04.080 Look, I get it.

00:44:04.800 Like Nick Fuentes has attacked me multiple times, including with accusations of being a secret

00:44:11.440 Jew.

00:44:11.760 Okay, like I get it.

00:44:13.860 Like it's ugly.

00:44:14.700 It's stupid.

00:44:15.720 But sorry, Christ is king.

00:44:17.580 And that is way more important than Nick Fuentes trying to hurt my feelings.

00:44:21.980 Okay, sorry.

00:44:23.580 The declaration of that truth is sacred and it's just more important than trying to chill,

00:44:30.280 you know, get rid of antisemitism, which you shouldn't have.

00:44:33.020 But sorry, Christ is king is more important.

00:44:34.920 It is it is just more central and it it has to be prioritized above anything else.

00:44:41.760 That's kind of the end of the story.

00:44:43.480 Now, again, Andrew Klavan didn't really say this specifically.

00:44:46.760 In fact, he said Christ is king multiple times on the stream.

00:44:49.820 However, his framing is what gave birth to this.

00:44:52.800 And this is a problem because, again, the whole core of Candace Owens.

00:44:56.980 And again, we can debate whether she went too far.

00:44:59.200 Again, I did not watch a lot of her stuff.

00:45:01.640 Maybe she did.

00:45:02.320 I don't know.

00:45:02.800 But the core of her dispute with Ben Shapiro and with most of Daily Wire was her opposition

00:45:08.220 to being to like being completely politically aligned with Israel, supporting Israel every

00:45:13.820 opportunity.

00:45:15.380 And it's very clear that a number of people who hold like political support of Israel as

00:45:21.920 one of the core tenets of conservatism are very worried that people might say, actually,

00:45:27.040 as part of America first, I just think we should put America first.

00:45:29.700 And I don't know that we should be giving a bunch of money and military aid to Israel.

00:45:34.000 Like, it's very clear that that is scary to them.

00:45:35.840 And so they're running around and calling people anti-Semites for not being aligned with

00:45:40.180 this.

00:45:40.480 And they're even questioning people's Christian doctrine and their Christianity if they don't

00:45:44.360 have this dispensational view that says, oh, you got to support political Israel or Christ

00:45:48.980 won't come back.

00:45:49.720 Like, sorry, no.

00:45:51.040 Like, you can be a Christian and you can be a legitimate Christian and you can be a legitimate

00:45:54.900 conservative and you can be legitimately American first.

00:45:57.880 And you cannot be, you know, hating people.

00:46:00.700 You cannot have ethnic hatred and still oppose sending a bunch of money and supporting Israel

00:46:06.400 militarily.

00:46:07.680 Sorry, but you can do those things.

00:46:10.060 And those are consistent viewpoints and there's nothing wrong with them.

00:46:12.960 And people shouldn't be running around trying to scare people with this.

00:46:15.500 The scare tactics are gross.

00:46:18.000 OK, they are just as gross as the things that you are complaining about with Quintez and the

00:46:22.760 Gropers, the Gropers.

00:46:23.820 OK, they're they're they're just as gross.

00:46:26.080 And to be honest, like many people at Daily Wire have shifted their opinions to be in line

00:46:30.180 with some of the stuff they were getting griped on by the Quintez crowd.

00:46:33.960 Right.

00:46:34.220 Matt Walsh will talk about anti-racism now.

00:46:38.040 He will talk about that.

00:46:39.740 This is the he this stuff he would not talk about previously before the Gropers started

00:46:44.460 talking about that.

00:46:45.520 So like just, you know, just dismissing everything that was talked about, I guess, is a problem

00:46:50.520 too.

00:46:51.080 The point being, again, is just this is going to get increasingly important.

00:46:56.080 As people in the conservative movement start to ask questions about like whether we actually

00:47:00.960 have to wrap our foreign policy and our foreign aid budget and military concerns around certain

00:47:08.680 concerns that Israel has, like maybe we can just separate these things and Israel can do

00:47:12.500 its thing and we can do our thing and maybe we can just put America first and we can solve

00:47:16.380 our problems first and we can let Israel be a sovereign country and that won't be a problem.

00:47:22.000 But when we when we try to tire theology, when we try to tire Christianity, when we try our

00:47:27.920 morality to support for Israel, that's a problem.

00:47:32.360 And you should be able to say Christ is king and you should put that above anything else.

00:47:36.400 That should be your primary concern.

00:47:38.740 And you shouldn't have ethnic hatred in your heart.

00:47:41.920 But that's really secondary to the truth that Christ is king and declaring it to everyone

00:47:47.620 who needs to hear it, including Jewish people.

00:47:50.980 But as I spent a lot of time on that, but kind of my whole point was this was not actually

00:47:56.200 the most interesting thing that that Andrew Klavan said.

00:47:58.760 So I need to jump back into this real quick because I didn't realize how long I spent on

00:48:01.820 that and I run out of time if I don't get started.

00:48:04.060 All right.

00:48:04.280 So here's the rest of what Andrew Klavan said is at Ben Shapiro, my friend, Ben Shapiro.

00:48:12.080 And, you know, I understand this.

00:48:13.780 All of you who love Ben and I love Ben and Jordan Peterson, you all want to see them find

00:48:17.820 Jesus because, you know, what joy and freedom that gives you.

00:48:20.960 And you certainly feel that it alters your relationship with God.

00:48:27.080 But when I think about this, to be honest with you, you know, and I know some people will

00:48:31.320 disagree with this, but life is not a game show where you guess the name of God and you

00:48:36.380 get to go to heaven honk.

00:48:37.420 You know, yes, the name is Jesus.

00:48:39.400 I look at Ben's life and I think if Ben were to embrace Jesus Christ, it would cause devastation

00:48:44.640 to his family, to the people who love him, to the people who listen to him, to his position

00:48:48.960 in the world.

00:48:50.880 I just have this feeling that...

00:48:53.320 All right.

00:48:54.060 So this is really, I think, the most controversial thing that Andrew Klavan says here.

00:48:59.420 It seems that Andrew Klavan is implying that actually Ben Shapiro should not convert to

00:49:03.980 Christianity, that that would cause too much problem, too many problems with his family,

00:49:09.300 that his position in the world.

00:49:11.340 And some people came out and said, oh, Andrew Klavan is saying that Daily Wire is going to

00:49:14.700 make money and they got to secure that.

00:49:15.960 I don't think that's what he's saying to be to be really fair to Andrew Klavan.

00:49:19.320 I think what he's saying here is he believes that Ben Shapiro has a positive influence

00:49:23.460 on the world and that if he goes ahead and converts to Christianity, if he went ahead

00:49:30.780 and declared Christ was king, then that would reduce his ability to have influence and would

00:49:36.340 also create tension in his family and everything.

00:49:38.560 And that would be a negative.

00:49:40.480 Now, this is, like I said, this is kind of the spiritual crime scene.

00:49:45.460 If you're looking for it, like his position on Christ as king was, like I said, I think

00:49:49.680 that was just a misstatement.

00:49:50.820 I don't, I think it was just a misframing.

00:49:52.760 I don't think that was actually malicious.

00:49:55.280 This is kind of a problem, though.

00:49:57.140 Like this is saying that it's better for people to not convert to Christianity because like

00:50:01.820 it might cause problems with their families.

00:50:03.340 Actually, in the Bible, Christ specifically says, you know, that might like following me might

00:50:08.220 cause problems.

00:50:08.880 Like you, you're going to need to care more about me than some of these relationships.

00:50:13.480 And if you don't, then, you know, that that's going to be an issue.

00:50:17.160 It's that's specifically something that Christ addressed.

00:50:20.060 And so when Andrew says that actually been maybe shouldn't convert to Christianity because

00:50:24.960 that could disrupt his family.

00:50:26.820 Well, that that's explicitly against what the Bible says.

00:50:30.160 There's also the well, his influence would be reduced.

00:50:33.400 Well, that's really neither here nor there.

00:50:36.120 Christ is king.

00:50:37.060 And if Christ is this is the savior and Christ is Lord and you need to follow Christ for salvation,

00:50:43.120 and also because it's just the right thing to do, it's the truth, then that needs to be the

00:50:49.260 paramount thing.

00:50:50.640 Now, he goes on and I'll play some more of it.

00:50:54.040 He goes on to say that, well, maybe he's using Ben Shapiro in this position.

00:50:58.600 And that might be true, right?

00:51:00.100 That might be true.

00:51:01.120 God often waits to save people.

00:51:03.280 He chooses the time of their salvation.

00:51:06.320 And so that that, you know, maybe he's putting it off until, you know, Ben can have the maximum

00:51:11.420 effect.

00:51:11.960 OK, that's possible.

00:51:13.960 That's not really for Andrew to figure out.

00:51:15.980 Right.

00:51:16.360 And in the meantime, you should still be evangelized.

00:51:19.160 You should still be telling people that, including Ben Shapiro, that Christ is king.

00:51:22.960 You should do it out of love.

00:51:23.920 You should do it out of care.

00:51:25.300 You should not do it out of any kind of ethnic resentment.

00:51:27.580 But you should be doing it.

00:51:30.080 And the idea that you just shouldn't be because he might lose some influence.

00:51:34.120 Well, I don't think that's true at all.

00:51:35.480 I think if Ben Shapiro became a Christian tomorrow, probably would have way more influence even

00:51:39.980 than he has now, which is already a lot.

00:51:42.280 I think that conversion story would actually be huge and it would probably have a significant

00:51:46.520 impact on Ben Shapiro's reach.

00:51:49.060 But either way, it's not the point.

00:51:51.560 That's not the relevant issue.

00:51:53.500 The issue is people should follow Christ.

00:51:56.240 They should declare Christ king.

00:51:57.940 They should make him the Lord of their life.

00:51:59.880 They should enter into a relationship and be saved and ask for forgiveness of sins.

00:52:04.620 You should too, by the way.

00:52:06.800 And that's the main priority.

00:52:10.180 It's not about Ben Shapiro's influence and it's not even about what it would do to his

00:52:14.760 familial relations.

00:52:16.180 And Christ is pretty explicit about that.

00:52:18.700 So like I said, I think this is really the far more significant and erroneous thing that

00:52:22.800 Andrew Klavan said here.

00:52:24.200 God has put this guy where he wants him to do what he wants him to do.

00:52:30.060 And as you know, I feel that, you know, the Jews were not abandoned by God.

00:52:35.140 I feel the same way about Jordan.

00:52:37.360 Jordan struggles with this stuff.

00:52:38.800 And I feel like I have an inkling of why he has to struggle with it.

00:52:42.840 But his struggle is inspiring to other people.

00:52:45.120 And I think God wants his boys where he's got them.

00:52:49.800 And there's no thought in my mind that he is going to send these guys into battle and

00:52:54.920 then turn his back on them when they come marching home.

00:52:57.780 It's not a game show.

00:52:59.220 You know, Christ is love.

00:53:00.500 Christ is truth.

00:53:01.700 Christ is the logos of the moral order.

00:53:04.260 You follow love.

00:53:05.200 You follow truth.

00:53:05.980 You follow the moral order.

00:53:07.140 You will find yourself ultimately at Jesus Christ's door.

00:53:10.700 I don't worry about Ben and Jordan Peterson one little bit.

00:53:15.200 Again, this is a little worrying.

00:53:17.880 So, yeah, Ben Shapiro, you know, maybe he is being used of God right now before he sees

00:53:24.460 light and converts to Christ.

00:53:26.060 Same with Jordan Peterson, for sure.

00:53:27.900 I'm sure, you know, many people, myself included, have been positively impacted by Jordan Peterson,

00:53:32.940 even though he's not a doctrinal Christian, at least to my knowledge at this point, you

00:53:36.860 know, he his struggle with that has been, I think, very powerful.

00:53:40.900 And I think he's right to cite that.

00:53:43.060 And that's true.

00:53:44.000 But again, that is not that is an excuse.

00:53:48.480 It doesn't make it, you know, you mean you should stop evangelizing or stop hoping for

00:53:52.120 and you should stop caring about whether or not someone converts to Christianity.

00:53:56.760 That is actually what matters.

00:53:58.320 And Clavin seems to imply here, which is often the case for dispensationalism, that there's

00:54:03.720 some kind of alternate route through salvation that like, oh, well, actually, maybe Ben Shapiro,

00:54:09.040 you know, God's not going to let Ben Shapiro just, you know, not convert to Christianity.

00:54:13.120 And then, you know, he's not going to leave him out there.

00:54:16.140 Eventually, he'll find his, you know, him there.

00:54:18.420 He'll he'll find his way to the cross.

00:54:19.940 He'll well, maybe, but maybe not like, sorry, but like everyone else, Jewish people do die

00:54:25.420 in their sin, just like people of, you know, German people, French people, Americans, people

00:54:31.100 from everywhere.

00:54:33.360 They die in their sin.

00:54:34.640 And sorry that like there's not a special get out of jail free card.

00:54:37.560 Like Christ is the way, the truth and the life.

00:54:40.160 And no one comes to the father, but by him, that's it.

00:54:43.460 And, you know, dispensationalism has gone through some revisions.

00:54:46.480 And most of the time it is now just affirming Christ.

00:54:49.140 But you'll still find people who think that like there's kind of, you know, Jewish people

00:54:53.740 still kind of have this side lane that they get to take into, you know, into salvation.

00:54:59.300 They, if they just kept the laws enough for something, maybe Jesus is only for Gentiles

00:55:03.560 and, and, and Jewish people still have like this covenant that they can follow that that's

00:55:09.120 not correct.

00:55:10.000 And that even though that's not what modern dispensationalism usually believes, it seems

00:55:15.580 to be kind of what Clavin is, is expressing here.

00:55:18.480 And that's kind of a problem.

00:55:19.700 So that's why I said, it's kind of a spiritual crime scene.

00:55:21.940 There seems to be quite a mix of, of all these different theologies and understandings

00:55:26.940 of salvation here.

00:55:28.300 Again, I'm not a theologian.

00:55:29.980 I'm sure there's people who are much more knowledgeable of this screaming at me in the

00:55:33.820 comments right now, rightly so.

00:55:36.180 But, but some of the things Clavin's saying here just aren't true.

00:55:40.780 And kind of the continued belief that they are true is a problem.

00:55:45.560 I think that that's actually a bad, a bad thing to tell Christians.

00:55:48.780 And it's a bad thing to tell, you know, Jewish people, including Ben Shapiro.

00:55:52.260 Everybody needs Christ.

00:55:53.340 All of us, everyone, every one of our, every nation, every, every ethnos, we all need Christ.

00:56:01.320 And, you know, there's no way around that.

00:56:03.500 There's no special chosen people lane that you get to avoid that.

00:56:07.780 Sorry.

00:56:07.920 Like Christ is the fulfillment of that covenant and he's the way you have to move forward now.

00:56:13.600 You can struggle with that as you need to, but that is the case.

00:56:17.380 And I don't think you're doing anyone any favors by pretending otherwise.

00:56:20.680 I transitioned to another clip here.

00:56:22.780 This is the last part I want to play for you.

00:56:24.580 This is, this is the other part that I thought was very interesting that Clavin said that some

00:56:28.900 people took issue.

00:56:29.520 There is something special and especially wicked about the hatred of Jews, and I will

00:56:34.740 tell you why.

00:56:35.880 It's not worse than other things.

00:56:38.380 It's just special.

00:56:39.860 It is different and it's central to everything that we love.

00:56:45.300 The hatred of Jews is a hatred of everything that we love.

00:56:48.460 Again, this is weird.

00:56:50.220 Ethnic, he does say all ethnic hatred is bad and he's correct about that.

00:56:54.040 But the hatred of Jews is the hatred of everything we love in the way that the hatred of, I don't

00:56:59.180 know, Europeans is, other Europeans is not, the people of other ethnicities is not, that

00:57:05.280 seems strange.

00:57:07.980 Honestly, that feels kind of ethnocentric.

00:57:10.780 The hatred of this particular ethnos is, you know, he says it's not, it's not different.

00:57:15.480 It's just special.

00:57:16.420 I'm not sure what those seem to be synonymous or he says it's not worse.

00:57:21.080 It's just special, I guess.

00:57:22.720 If it's a hatred of everything we love and other hatred of other ethnos is not a hatred of

00:57:28.760 everything we love, then it does seem like it is then special and therefore worse, right?

00:57:33.680 You can judge his own words the way that you want, but it does feel like he's carving stuff.

00:57:39.160 And to be, again, to be clear, Clavin feels like his ethnos is under attack here.

00:57:43.460 I get that.

00:57:44.500 He should defend that.

00:57:46.380 That's natural.

00:57:47.340 That's normal.

00:57:48.520 And I'm not, again, I think Clavin's an honest guy and I think he's just being honest here

00:57:52.860 about how he feels.

00:57:54.820 I think these are pretty normal feelings.

00:57:56.240 I just think the idea that they're specific and only there for Jewish people, a little

00:58:02.060 odd.

00:58:04.060 And it comes in disguise.

00:58:05.800 Did you ever wonder why Europe exterminated itself with the Holocaust against the Jews?

00:58:14.660 Why was that the end of Europe?

00:58:17.320 Two thirds of Europe's Jews, two out of every three Jews, was murdered in World War II.

00:58:24.620 Some killed in, you know, bombing and things like that, but many, many, many of them simply

00:58:30.480 just gasped, murdered.

00:58:32.780 So if the Jews were the problem with Europe, you'd think Europe would thrive afterwards,

00:58:36.880 right?

00:58:37.120 They got off, rid of the majority of their Jews.

00:58:39.480 Everything should go great now.

00:58:41.060 But in fact, no.

00:58:42.800 What happened was Europe, the greatest civilization that has ever existed on the face of the earth,

00:58:48.340 ever dwindled to the little nothing that it is now.

00:58:54.200 Now, I had not seen that clip before I went ahead and listened to his old podcast.

00:58:58.540 So I heard that without anyone else's opinion on it.

00:59:01.960 And when I listened to it, when I heard that, my first reaction is, that's very strange for

00:59:06.840 two reasons.

00:59:07.480 One, you're expanding the Holocaust and then kind of the culpability for it to all of Europe.

00:59:16.360 All of Europe exterminated as Jews.

00:59:18.380 Okay, well, that's not what happened.

00:59:20.620 So that's weird.

00:59:22.500 Why are you expanding it to all of Europe?

00:59:24.500 And it seems like he's doing that because then he wanted to say that getting rid of Jewish

00:59:30.640 people in Europe was destroyed Europe, which the implication of that, I felt like the pretty

00:59:35.340 obvious implication about that is Jewish people are what made Europe special.

00:59:39.940 That's what made it important.

00:59:41.080 And once they were gone, that was kind of the suicide of Europe.

00:59:46.060 I thought that was a very strange thing to say.

00:59:48.440 Again, it kind of spoke to a particular ethnocentrism on his part.

00:59:54.560 Again, outraged at the murder of Jewish people.

00:59:58.580 Understandable.

00:59:59.360 Totally.

00:59:59.760 But that doesn't mean we need to overstate this fact.

01:00:03.360 Like that seems very strange that we would put the culpability on the entirety of Europe

01:00:07.940 and we would link the entire prosperity of Europe to the existence of Jews inside of it.

01:00:14.040 It seems to have a very particular understanding of the relationship with Jewish people and

01:00:18.960 the success of Europe.

01:00:20.560 Now, other people, Connor over at the lowest cedars and Laura Chin is also on the blaze, also

01:00:28.220 reacted with kind of the same reaction I had.

01:00:31.760 And Andrew Klavan said, oh, that's not what I said.

01:00:34.080 Okay, well, it seems like what you said.

01:00:36.560 Maybe I'm just misunderstanding it.

01:00:38.040 Maybe he'll come out and clarify it.

01:00:40.260 He just said it wasn't what he said.

01:00:42.040 It's strange that all of us kind of came to this conclusion.

01:00:44.820 Connor is, I think, a big fan of Andrew Klavan.

01:00:48.140 Accredited him specifically with his journey rightward.

01:00:51.560 So it's not like somebody who doesn't respect Andrew Klavan.

01:00:54.860 But the fact that we all listened to this and heard the same thing leads me to believe

01:00:58.680 kind of what was said here.

01:01:00.600 But again, you can just click play and make your own decision on how you feel he expressed

01:01:05.580 himself there.

01:01:06.680 But all this kind of comes up to put a bow on this, which has been a rather rambling.

01:01:13.840 There are many sets of issues involved in here.

01:01:16.340 But to put a bow on this, it feels like there was a lot of reaction here.

01:01:23.400 And again, Andrew Klavan felt like it felt like he had bottled up a lot of his response

01:01:29.980 to Candace Owens' opposition to Israel and some of the backlash that kind of online hate

01:01:36.540 had had to him.

01:01:38.620 And I get it.

01:01:39.440 Again, it's not fun.

01:01:40.980 I've been there.

01:01:41.780 I don't like it, of course.

01:01:43.440 But you just have to have an ordering of priorities.

01:01:47.040 And Andrew Klavan here does have the priority of defending his ethnos.

01:01:51.700 And good for him.

01:01:52.860 Like, that's totally understandable.

01:01:54.520 When he feels that people he identifies with are under attack, he goes and defends them.

01:01:59.020 I just wonder if the Daily Wire would be okay with most other conservatives who have different

01:02:04.040 ethnicities and identities doing the same thing.

01:02:06.500 I think we just call that identity politics now, right?

01:02:11.100 It seems like a strange double standard.

01:02:14.280 Also, the implication that this was what made Europe great, it just seems like a strange

01:02:20.740 conclusion to draw.

01:02:21.600 And so it feels like, in many ways, there was a butting of heads of identity politics.

01:02:26.960 There's kind of an old identity politics that has existed inside of conservatism comfortably

01:02:32.460 for a long time, which was the support of Israel and the state of Israel.

01:02:39.540 And it's okay for Israel to have an ethnostate.

01:02:41.980 It's okay for them to have that pride and have that identity.

01:02:45.220 And they're allowed to defend it.

01:02:46.540 In fact, everyone should defend it.

01:02:47.960 And everyone should kind of pledge allegiance to the state of Israel at some level and never

01:02:52.300 question it.

01:02:52.860 And that's kind of been a critical part of the conservative coalition for a long time.

01:02:57.860 And that's starting to crack up.

01:02:58.960 And a lot of people are having various levels of reaction to that.

01:03:03.380 I think this is a question you should be able to ask.

01:03:05.740 And I think you should be able to ask it without expressing ethnic hatred.

01:03:09.900 I don't think anyone should be expressing ethnic hatred.

01:03:12.960 But I also don't think we should be chilling these questions by implying that everyone who

01:03:17.840 asks them has ethnic hatred or that ethnic hatred is somehow more important.

01:03:23.340 And the yelling down of that is more important than basic affirmations of Christian faith,

01:03:28.780 like Christ.

01:03:29.780 Again, I know that's not the, I don't think that was Clavin's intention.

01:03:34.960 Overall, I think Clavin is an honest guy.

01:03:37.660 I think he's an honorable guy.

01:03:38.960 I think he's just saying what he believes.

01:03:40.660 I think in many cases here, he's just knee-jerk defending people and is right to do so.

01:03:46.520 But I do think it opens up many avenues and conversations that we don't normally have.

01:03:51.900 And maybe in this way, this experience has been valuable for a lot of people to kind of

01:03:57.760 understand more of the things that have been in play in the background are now coming to

01:04:02.520 the forefront.

01:04:03.700 But I do think at the end of the day, it's important to recognize that Daily Wire and

01:04:08.460 everybody else has the right to go ahead and employ who they want.

01:04:11.880 And you then make your decision on what you want to support, depending on the decisions

01:04:18.580 that they make.

01:04:19.360 That's fine.

01:04:20.060 But like I said, I thought the reaction to Candace Owens firing, particularly Andrew

01:04:26.980 Clavin's, and then the debate on the internet that came after was the far more interesting

01:04:31.960 thing.

01:04:32.240 Because the stupidest debate I've ever seen is whether or not we should be scared to say

01:04:36.320 Christ is king.

01:04:37.600 Like, sorry.

01:04:38.560 And I know some people say, oh, we weren't saying that.

01:04:40.680 Well, sorry, but you kind of were.

01:04:42.120 Like, it was kind of chilling that speech around that.

01:04:45.160 And I understand.

01:04:46.440 Like, I don't want people running around, you know, yelling, you know, a lot of ethnic

01:04:51.600 hatred of people online either.

01:04:52.840 Like, I don't think that's a Christian way to conduct yourself.

01:04:56.760 And it's certainly not the way you should conduct yourself when you're talking about

01:05:00.720 Christ to others.

01:05:01.700 If you're actually witnessing to people, you should be doing it out of love, right?

01:05:05.500 That's just should be the case.

01:05:07.280 But we should be careful not to chill the witness of others and the declaration of truth.

01:05:13.420 We need to have an order of goods there.

01:05:16.500 And at the top of that has to be that Christ is Lord.

01:05:20.440 And Christianity is paramount.

01:05:22.000 And the truth of Christianity is paramount.

01:05:23.860 And sharing that with others is more important than any other concern.

01:05:26.880 Even if someone yells, you know, mean words at you and calls you mean names from the right

01:05:31.420 or the left.

01:05:32.600 All right, guys, I'm going to go ahead and switch over to the questions of the people here.

01:05:37.220 Real quick.

01:05:42.520 Truddle for $5, aka Boomer Eschatology Part 2 anyway, Christ is King.

01:05:48.280 Yeah, weirdly enough, I did this episode last week on Boomer Eschatology.

01:05:53.580 And there is a lot of truth to that, that this is tied in with part of Boomer Eschatology.

01:05:58.540 I didn't really go into that in the last episode.

01:06:00.320 But in some ways, you could see this as a continuation of that episode.

01:06:04.140 So yeah, that's true.

01:06:06.680 Creeper Weirdo says, I'm not sure I trust Candace Owens.

01:06:09.080 Also, Kanye is a paranoid schizophrenic and can't be taken seriously.

01:06:11.880 No more Forever Wars.

01:06:13.260 Yeah, there's a lot there that I think is probably wise.

01:06:16.580 A lot of people just rush to blindly defend Candace Owens.

01:06:20.380 I don't know Candace.

01:06:21.400 I don't know anything about her other than what I've seen.

01:06:23.700 Like I said, I followed her career from the beginning.

01:06:25.500 I watched her kind of go from being this kind of Anita Sarkeesian type figure to kind of a

01:06:32.620 fire-breathing conservative to, you know, kind of wherever she is now.

01:06:38.240 And that's been interesting.

01:06:40.160 I've, you know, people have always threw out these accusations of grifting and stuff.

01:06:44.200 I don't know.

01:06:44.600 But she's probably made a sincere conversion, I think, to, you know, to a large extent on

01:06:49.600 a lot of these issues.

01:06:51.620 But I get it if you don't trust Candace Owens.

01:06:53.820 And I get it if you don't agree with what Candace Owens has done.

01:06:56.400 Again, I have not watched every Candace Owens episode.

01:06:59.240 I don't know everything she said.

01:07:00.940 Maybe, you know, I already know she said some crazy stuff.

01:07:02.980 Maybe she said even more crazy stuff.

01:07:04.980 But, but, but again, this was not primarily about the firing of Candace Owens or whether

01:07:10.640 you should trust Candace Owens or anything.

01:07:12.560 I think, again, the responses to Candace Owens were far more revealing than the actual firing

01:07:18.960 thereof.

01:07:20.480 Let's see.

01:07:21.140 Maddie Ice says, Shmuley stabbed an old client of mine in the back after my client did a favor

01:07:26.500 for him.

01:07:27.180 And they share the same background, needless to say, needlessly petty, pretty gross.

01:07:31.740 Yeah.

01:07:31.940 For those who don't know, Shmuley was like this rabbi that Owens was kind of in a fight

01:07:36.220 with.

01:07:36.900 Shmuley seems pretty crazy.

01:07:38.380 He seems like the radical outlier rabbi in the same way that there are, you know, crazy

01:07:44.860 pastors.

01:07:45.200 So I don't think you should attribute his behavior to Jewish people in general, but he, he does

01:07:50.460 do some very strange things.

01:07:53.520 Like, like he dresses this caricature of a Jewish person to like prove Candace Owens wrong.

01:07:59.880 And it is the most anti-Semitic thing I have ever seen.

01:08:02.640 It was insane.

01:08:04.140 This is a guy who, who I guess like owns the sex shop with his daughter, even though he's

01:08:07.900 supposed to be a rabbi and stuff.

01:08:08.900 It's very weird.

01:08:10.040 He's very weird.

01:08:11.000 Um, uh, it's, if nothing else, he certainly, I don't know the truth about Candace Owens

01:08:16.720 and her heart and where she's been, but standing next to Shmuley makes her look pretty sane.

01:08:21.360 So there, there's that.

01:08:22.600 If, if she chose her enemy, she chose him.

01:08:25.480 Well, uh, let's see.

01:08:28.220 Uh, Florida Henry says I've been to Palestine and it was miserable.

01:08:32.060 Basically a prison.

01:08:32.940 Israel, Israelis were very nice to me though.

01:08:36.480 Yeah.

01:08:36.720 Again.

01:08:37.040 So if you want background on this, uh, I really can't, uh, I really can't, uh, I

01:08:40.980 really can't suggest enough, uh, I can't recommend enough, uh, Martyr Maid, the, the

01:08:46.480 Martyr Maid podcast by my buddy, Daryl Cooper.

01:08:48.800 Uh, he did a long, very long, you're going to be spending a very long time, uh, if you

01:08:53.580 want to listen to it, but it's, it's worth it to, I think to grasp what's happening here.

01:08:57.280 He did like a very long podcast about the formation of Israel and everything surrounding.

01:09:04.260 And, uh, let's just say there are a lot of things that we are not normally told about

01:09:09.360 the formation of Israel.

01:09:10.360 Uh, I think ultimately what defines a country, uh, what, what legitimizes the country is its

01:09:17.100 ability to defend itself.

01:09:18.540 And as long as Israel can do that, then it is a legitimate country and it has the right

01:09:22.380 to do exactly that.

01:09:23.560 I think that's just kind of the natural organizing principle of nations.

01:09:27.220 Uh, but there's a lot of, uh, to the history of Israel that, you know, it's, it's a lot more

01:09:32.080 complicated than we, we normally, uh, uh, are told about.

01:09:35.540 Uh, and much of that does put Palestinians in a very different light than you understand

01:09:40.280 them now that doesn't justify a lot of what Palestinians have done.

01:09:43.380 Uh, a lot of it is horrific, uh, but you understand it very interested, very differently.

01:09:47.340 Once you understand the history behind it, a lot of it makes a far more sense than like,

01:09:51.920 oh, these people are just rabid animals who attack Jews at random.

01:09:55.040 No, there, there's a lot more to that history.

01:09:57.120 And again, that doesn't justify a lot of the horrific things that Palestinian terrorists have

01:10:00.880 done to Jewish people.

01:10:02.540 Uh, but, uh, at all, it's, it's horrific, but you go back through that history and the

01:10:08.140 connections make a lot more sense.

01:10:09.720 Uh, you, you start to understand it in more context.

01:10:12.400 Uh, Kripper Weirdo says also Christ is King.

01:10:15.380 Absolutely guys.

01:10:16.220 Christ is indeed King.

01:10:17.840 Uh, let's see.

01:10:19.800 Uh, Kripper Weirdo said the Jews wrote the old Testament.

01:10:22.720 Christians wrote the new Testament.

01:10:24.100 The birth and resurrection of Christ is the important part.

01:10:26.540 All are, all are saved.

01:10:28.080 Uh, he's talking about Gropers who indeed suck eggs again.

01:10:31.860 Yeah.

01:10:32.300 I've been attacked by Nick Fuentes.

01:10:34.980 And, uh, that means a lot of people who are connected with Nick Fuentes have attacked

01:10:38.400 me though.

01:10:39.020 To be fair, I know a lot of people who are Gropers who watch the show and like it.

01:10:42.240 So I don't want to paint everybody there with a broad brush either.

01:10:45.320 Some people, you know, wear that title or, or, you know, maybe watch Nick and also watch

01:10:50.420 me.

01:10:51.200 All I know is there's no love lost between me and Nick Fuentes.

01:10:54.020 He's lied about me.

01:10:54.920 He's sent people to attack me.

01:10:56.200 Um, I understand why, uh, people who have been attacked by him would be angry with that,

01:11:01.740 including Andrew.

01:11:02.660 I think there's, there's just, uh, justice in that.

01:11:04.920 But like I said, I think his framing was terrible and the consequences of that, uh, were, were

01:11:09.360 not great.

01:11:10.600 Um, Kripper Weirdo says, uh, be proud of your people.

01:11:13.520 Don't worship them.

01:11:14.360 That is always the correct answer.

01:11:16.560 Yes.

01:11:16.940 I not worship your ethnos, but do not be ashamed of it.

01:11:19.940 I think that that, that is the correct balance at all times.

01:11:22.740 Uh, Kripper Weirdo says, uh, can we give up on Netter now?

01:11:27.360 Uh, if we haven't already, uh, that's, I don't have time to dive into the, uh, uh, to the

01:11:35.100 different, uh, uh, nuances that would need to, to address the Netter question on this.

01:11:40.560 Uh, but yeah, we, we, if you want to go back and understand that I've done, uh, episodes

01:11:45.460 on that, uh, that principle, uh, people can check that out, uh, if they'd like to go back

01:11:50.260 into the archive.

01:11:52.740 Uh, let's see, uh, Alexander Jean says, uh, speaking of Christ, uh, Christ the King, can

01:12:00.900 you bring Matt Fraud onto your show?

01:12:03.160 He's a Catholic podcaster.

01:12:04.700 I'm not familiar with Matt.

01:12:06.580 Uh, I haven't really seen any of his work.

01:12:09.340 If you want to link me something, I'll, I'll try to catch it at some point.

01:12:12.600 Uh, always interested in having new conversations, but sorry, I'm just not familiar with Matt's

01:12:17.740 work here.

01:12:18.220 Uh, let's see, uh, Noah, uh, Bodie says opposition to Israel and Jewish influence is caused by a

01:12:27.620 histrionic fearmonging of antisemitism.

01:12:30.000 Whenever we want America first, I just think that it's bad to try to scare people away from

01:12:37.420 focusing on the United States.

01:12:39.700 I, I, I don't think that you should throw that accusation around again.

01:12:43.340 We, we talk about how accusations of racism are lessened by their constant, uh, use the

01:12:50.240 same as true of antisemitism, of course.

01:12:52.180 And when you're using that to just tell people, well, whatever you do, you can, you have to

01:12:56.380 support the state of Israel, no matter what, uh, you can't say that we should just focus

01:12:59.940 on the United States.

01:13:01.000 Uh, and, and it's antisemitic to focus on the United States.

01:13:03.920 That's a problem.

01:13:04.520 And that, and that was a comparison I made, you know, early on, uh, to this, you know,

01:13:08.620 a lot of people will say, Oh, America first is some, some Nazi dog whistle.

01:13:12.840 And, and, and Andrew Klavan talks about dog whistling in this podcast a lot and says, Oh,

01:13:17.220 this is a dog whistle and that's dog whistle.

01:13:18.860 And he acknowledges that's what the left does all the time.

01:13:21.120 But, you know, he kind of spends a lot of time doing that there.

01:13:23.620 And, and I think that that's, uh, yeah, I think that's just counterproductive.

01:13:27.880 We should be able to discuss these issues.

01:13:29.420 Uh, people should be, be able to say that they kind of want a foreign policy that is

01:13:34.780 not giving a place of primacy to foreign nations.

01:13:38.540 And they should be able to do that without being accused of hating the people of that

01:13:41.580 nation.

01:13:42.200 That, that should be very common sense.

01:13:44.480 Uh, there's again, ethnic hatred of all kinds should be avoided.

01:13:48.700 It's a sin.

01:13:49.500 It's not Christian.

01:13:50.340 It's not good behavior.

01:13:51.320 If you're a Christian and you're doing that.

01:13:53.280 Uh, you should stop.

01:13:54.460 And if you're doing it while also, you know, declaring Christ's King, that that's, that's

01:13:59.500 not good.

01:13:59.920 It's not how you should approach, uh, people, but the problem is not the phrase Christ is

01:14:03.560 King.

01:14:03.900 The problem is the ethnic hatred.

01:14:05.820 Uh, but again, we should be able to go ahead and discuss these nations without being accused

01:14:11.080 of ethnic hatred.

01:14:11.980 These things should not be one in the same.

01:14:15.060 Uh, let's see.

01:14:17.020 Uh, Odra Noel Zintram.

01:14:20.220 I'm sorry.

01:14:20.600 I'm sure I said that very wrong.

01:14:22.160 Have you heard of father James Maldsley?

01:14:24.940 Uh, should definitely have a chat with him sometime.

01:14:27.340 I have not again, another, uh, guy.

01:14:29.940 I I'm not familiar with that work at all, but thank you for the suggestion.

01:14:33.240 I'm always looking for people to talk to.

01:14:34.900 Uh, best thing to do is like, you know, at me on Twitter and, and, and point me towards

01:14:38.820 someone's work.

01:14:39.600 Uh, that's the easiest way to, to have me possibly interact with it, become familiar with it.

01:14:44.440 Um, let's see.

01:14:48.420 Uh, uh, Noah Bode says, if the ability to defend yourself is the legitimating principle, aren't

01:14:53.860 we left with the law of the jungle?

01:14:56.660 Sure.

01:14:57.220 So, uh, there's a, uh, there's a truth here that is important.

01:15:03.180 There is no such thing as international law.

01:15:05.960 Uh, you cannot have international law.

01:15:08.320 Uh, the, the, the, the, the bounds in which law is, uh, enforced is with inside a sovereign

01:15:14.120 sphere.

01:15:14.800 So, uh, in the United States, uh, hopefully, ideally not always, but hopefully, uh, inside

01:15:22.220 the United States, we exercise sovereignty and only our law applies to us.

01:15:26.880 The law of other nations should not apply to us.

01:15:30.880 And so someone going around and saying like, well, you should behave this way or you should

01:15:34.680 behave that way.

01:15:35.620 Well, maybe we care about their opinion.

01:15:37.440 Maybe the electra, us, maybe we take that under advisement, but their opinion is not sovereign.

01:15:43.160 At the end of the day, our law is what is actually enforced on us.

01:15:46.980 Uh, you can expand that out to empires, right?

01:15:49.000 So in say the Roman empire, um, and you could argue inside the United States empire, but that's

01:15:54.780 a, that's a more complicated discussion.

01:15:56.000 We'll use the Roman empire because it's, it's easily defined as one.

01:15:59.300 Most people understood it under the Roman empire, Roman law expanded the whole empire, even

01:16:04.000 though there were many nations.

01:16:05.020 In fact, in many cases, there were, uh, nations that, uh, still maintain their own local leadership,

01:16:10.560 but even their own monarchs, their own, their own rulers.

01:16:13.420 Uh, but they were still under Roman law to some extent, Roman sovereignty could be imposed

01:16:17.760 on them.

01:16:18.500 And so if they didn't relate to other nations, the way that Rome wanted them to, then they had

01:16:22.620 to listen, you know, they would get in trouble.

01:16:24.000 They had to listen to Rome, but at that point they had kind of lost their nationhood, right?

01:16:28.280 They might be able to make the, or rather they lost their sovereignty.

01:16:32.280 They, they may be nations in the sense that they're peoples and they may even have their

01:16:36.260 own customs and their own, their old, uh, ruling class monarchs kind of as figureheads

01:16:41.240 making local decisions over them.

01:16:43.240 Um, but their ultimate sovereignty was controlled by Rome, not by the people of that nation.

01:16:48.740 Uh, they, they were under the auspices of an empire.

01:16:51.760 If someone can come by and tell you how you should treat another nation, if they can compel

01:16:56.420 you to treat another nation a certain way, um, then you are not sovereign.

01:17:03.440 They are sovereign.

01:17:05.200 If someone can tell you how to treat someone and they can enforce that reliably, you are not

01:17:10.240 in control of that situation.

01:17:11.280 They are in control of that situation.

01:17:13.400 And so the ultimate sovereignty really is your ability to defend yourself.

01:17:17.380 If someone else has to defend you for you, then you are not sovereign over yourself.

01:17:22.940 And so just kind of the most natural law, the most natural definition of a sovereign nation

01:17:28.780 is a nation which is able to control its own decisions and therefore has to be able to

01:17:33.680 control its own defense.

01:17:35.400 And if you can't do that, then you're probably not the one actually in control.

01:17:39.600 And so, no, I don't, I mean, maybe you could say you're left with the law of jungle.

01:17:43.520 I just think you have a natural law principle there about the formation of nations, which

01:17:47.700 is that a truly sovereign nation is one that can control its own decisions.

01:17:51.920 And to be able to control your own decisions, primarily you need to be in control of your

01:17:56.540 own safety.

01:17:57.700 Uh, and if you're not in control of your safety, if you're ever completely dependent on someone

01:18:01.460 else, then you're actually probably not sovereign.

01:18:03.800 There's probably someone else who gets to make the decisions for you.

01:18:07.780 Uh, drew frigging, just dropping a super chat there.

01:18:10.820 No question, but thank you very much.

01:18:12.140 I appreciate your support.

01:18:14.220 Uh, and then we got, uh, life of Brian says Candace was right in principle, but still

01:18:22.700 it was better call solving herself, uh, from her contract.

01:18:27.300 I have not seen that show.

01:18:28.600 Well, I should say I've seen like the first season of that show, but I've not seen the

01:18:31.120 whole, uh, show.

01:18:32.520 So I, I don't, I don't know that reference, uh, exactly.

01:18:35.340 Uh, but I hear what you're saying.

01:18:36.920 Yeah.

01:18:37.200 She, she opposed, she had questions about Israel.

01:18:40.240 She had questions about Israel's conduct during the war, uh, and their response to kind of,

01:18:45.500 uh, Palestine, uh, Palestinian terrorists.

01:18:48.100 And, uh, maybe you feel like she was justified in that.

01:18:50.960 I would say she's on pretty firm ground and having those questions.

01:18:54.260 Uh, I would agree to some extent there.

01:18:56.900 Uh, but yeah, I would agree with you.

01:18:58.580 I think at least what you're implying here that after that, she kind of went as far as

01:19:03.040 she could to get out of her contract.

01:19:04.560 I, I, that would be my read on the situation as well.

01:19:07.160 Um, so, uh, you probably shouldn't embrace everything she said after that fact, again,

01:19:11.360 I don't know everything she said.

01:19:12.480 I didn't watch all of her stuff.

01:19:14.280 Uh, but, uh, but you, you probably shouldn't.

01:19:16.380 Cause I think she probably was just trying to play herself out there.

01:19:19.040 Uh, that would be my read as well.

01:19:21.020 All right, guys, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up.

01:19:23.240 Uh, I want to thank everyone for coming by quite a turnout to this one.

01:19:26.740 Uh, appreciate everyone for stopping by.

01:19:29.220 Uh, it's worth getting into the nuance of this stuff, guys.

01:19:31.720 I know these topics are dangerous.

01:19:33.060 I know they're controversial.

01:19:34.380 Uh, I know that it's a lot easier to just scream past each other online, but I think it's

01:19:38.820 worth deep diving on this stuff because it's important.

01:19:41.620 Um, and if we can't talk about this stuff, we're going to drown in it.

01:19:44.020 And we are conservative movement is drowning in its inability to address these topics.

01:19:48.060 Um, and if, if we're not going to have the courage to go ahead and, and kind of face

01:19:52.100 them head on, uh, then we kind of deserve to end up, you know, where, where we are.

01:19:56.000 Uh, so, uh, if this is your first time on the channel, please make sure that you go ahead

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01:20:14.240 And when you do leave your rating or review, it really helps with the algorithm magic.

01:20:18.160 And if you'd like to pre-order my book, the total state, which is coming out sooner than

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01:20:35.400 Thank you once again, everyone.

01:20:36.620 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - March 25, 2024

Candace Owens vs. the Daily Wire ｜ 3⧸25⧸24

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