Curtis Yarvin is a political theorist who writes at Gray Mirror and is a regular contributor to The Weekly Standard. In this episode, we talk about the new college that Gov. Ron DeSantis is trying to create in Florida, Hillsdale College, and why he thinks it s a good idea.
00:01:28.420Hey, everybody. How's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon. I've got a great stream with a great guest that I know you guys are really going to enjoy. I don't think we need a lot of introduction, but Curtis Yarvin is a political theorist. He writes on Substack at Gray Mirror. Curtis, thanks for joining me.
00:01:52.380Absolutely. So there's been a surprising amount of contact between your ideas now and a lot of more mainstream kind of political operators, guys in the GOP, activists on the right, that kind of thing.
00:02:07.300And so I wanted to start out by asking you what you think about some people and their reactions, kind of the way they're going. We've got a lot of people like, say, Chris Rufo, who are saying your approach is a little too cynical, that there's still democratic solutions.
00:02:23.560You do the right kind of activism. You kind of bring this right wing kind of Alinsky tactic to bear on things and you can make real change. What do you think about what he's doing in the prospects that that has?
00:02:34.680Well, you know, there's a great quote by, do you know, the name R.L. Dabney. You might know the quote that I'm thinking of.
00:02:44.180You know, R.L. Dabney was, shall we say, a 19th century writer. And he has this line where he says, you know, the only role of conservatism is, I'm paraphrasing here, I don't have the exact quote,
00:03:00.180but he's basically like the role of conservatism is to basically keep radicalism in shape and give it this sense of having an enemy, which is like always out there and like ready.
00:03:15.380Basically, you know, basically you're creating. When you sort of think about what you're doing, when you basically administer these kinds of little pinpricks that seem basically designed to create as much hostility as possible at as much sort of fear as possible.
00:03:35.720Because, you know, let's look at, for example, what DeSantis is doing with a new college in Florida.
00:03:44.480Let's just take that as like a picture of, OK, what's going on here, what's being done?
00:03:51.320And I don't know exactly what's going on there and what's being done, but I can think of a sort of a number of different options and directions.
00:04:01.200Essentially, there was this little old hippie college that somehow became affiliated with the state of Florida that, you know, enables the governor of Florida to select the board of this college.
00:04:16.800Right. And so the idea is, you know, I was talking to a friend about this and he referred to it as like, you know, the opening salvo, you know, as if like, you know, like the way D-Day had worked was that first you'd sent like a fishing boat there with like a couple of guys with like, you know, like rifles and they, you know, taking some pot shots at the beach.
00:04:39.100Right. You know, and just to let the Germans know you're there, you know, basically kind of feel at the softness of the territory.
00:04:45.760Right. And, you know, no, D-Day was not announced, you know, and and the and so when you sort of dig down into the details, you basically see that what you're generating with this effort is, OK, what's the optimal result?
00:05:04.100The optimal result is you get another Hillsdale, which for those of you don't listening is a very, you know, nice, classical Christian, you know, constitution oriented.
00:05:15.780I'm not sure they approved me at Hillsdale, you know, college in where is it? Michigan, something like that.
00:05:22.140So, you know, basically you're like, OK, you're creating like Hillsdale in Florida.
00:05:26.640OK, now, if you have the funding to create Hillsdale in Florida, your very best solution to creating Hillsdale in Florida, supposing that you think that will solve a problem, is to buy a tract of Florida swampland, put up some buildings on it, hire some faculty and basically say who wants to come to this thing.
00:05:50.740So if you basically say, OK, you know, if your goal is to create something, that's probably what you do.
00:05:59.580If your goal is to basically generate press and headlines and like media flow and campaign contributions, what you would do instead is pick as much of a fight as you can.
00:06:13.240So the way if you wanted to pick a fight, what you would do is and it's funny when the, you know, the people sort of trying to do this kind of thing don't really, you know, the history, if you look at the history of politicians trying to basically get communism out of the educational system,
00:06:35.220which is, you know, obviously a cause, you know, at least as near and dear to my heart as Chris Ruffo's, you'll see that its peak was really sometime around the 1920s.
00:06:45.040And, you know, institutions like tenure were specifically adopted, like the idea of the state legislature banning communism in the state university is an idea that's like 100 years old.
00:06:57.400And 100 years ago, needless to say, it was undertaken with quite a bit more, shall we say, prejudice than anything that Ron DeSantis could do with.
00:07:08.680Right. And so, OK, you have a majority on the board of new college.
00:07:15.100What are you going to do with that majority?
00:07:16.460Now, if I were sort of restricted to those limitations, then what I would do is to say, OK, what kind of departments do we have at the new college?
00:07:36.560We have humanities and STEM, STEM, actually, I hate it.
00:07:43.660So, OK, we're basically going to clear out the humanities department, hire an all new humanities, you know, faculty from like credential to nonce and, you know, boot this thing back up.
00:07:55.560And then, of course, you have to deal with the accreditation departments, because if new college loses its accreditation, which it will, it's just a diploma bill.
00:08:04.000It's not even an official part of the system.
00:08:05.740So, actually, accreditation besides, you know, tenure, I don't I'm not even sure if this board can legally get rid of the most of the, you know, English department of new college.
00:08:17.960Probably they can't. Of course, they can pass a rule saying, hey, no communism in the classroom or whatever.
00:08:24.000Don't say gay. Like, I don't know. Right.
00:08:25.920You know, and the thing is, the whole thing is just like, you know, incredibly ineffectual and provocative thing where you're just like, oh, we're going to tell all the like, you know, woke kindergarten teachers in Florida.
00:08:40.100But they have to be, in theory, a little more delicate about, you know, putting the trans flag in the classroom or whatever, maybe put it in the back or something.
00:08:51.840There's no like, you know, if you actually wanted to enforce these rules on existing institutions, great, you know, hire, you know, 20,000 people to like, you know, create, you know, do what they did in Canada with like the human rights tribunals, where they basically created this whole new superstructure of human rights law, which of course is like woke law.
00:09:14.120And then they created a new court system to impose it slightly better than infiltrating the existing court system, you know, and so it's or like in the Islamic Republic of Iran, you know, you have, you know, Islamic tribunals that will Islamify everything you want to do that.
00:09:30.040Like, OK, you know, like what I object to is basically like I'm not saying that if you want to go like full Islamic Republic of Iran in Florida, it wouldn't work.
00:09:42.200It would work. I don't think it really matches the temperament of Floridians.
00:09:46.360I don't think that they're really a whole lot like Iranians in 1978.
00:09:52.520But, you know, am I saying it like wouldn't work?
00:10:00.700There's a very important like issue of like power and how it's used here.
00:10:08.140And, you know, one of my, you know, Machiavellian beliefs is that the principal use of power, the only proper use of power, especially when you have almost none, is to use it to get more power, not to spend it on things that will, things that are sort of evanescent and ephemeral.
00:10:29.780And so when I basically look at sort of this approach to the culture war, where you're basically going to like take a fortress of the enemies, like by force, by political force and like storm it.
00:10:46.020What are you going to do with all the like the lib students at like new college, by the way, are you ideally maybe you'd keep like the lib professors around and like, you know, your freshman class would have, you know, based freshmen and based professors.
00:10:59.120And then the sophomores would be like lib freshmen with lib professors or something.
00:11:05.080Like if you want to start like, you know, if you want to start a like dental floss company, don't like acquire like a car company and try to turn it into a dental floss company, because that's roughly the difference between what new college is and what it should be.
00:11:18.760Moreover, I can guarantee you that what they're going to do to new college is nowhere near as like basically they'll have this like built in headline generating force as the like the noble like, you know, professors of new college stand up to censorship and the students organize and like show themselves.
00:11:39.100Right. You know, you basically got this like New York Times content generator that's going to give you like a scopes trial, like, you know, because this was basically the same thing is like the scopes monkey trial in the 1920s.
00:11:51.280Right. You know, and and instead of like, don't say gay, it was don't say evolution.
00:11:56.460Right. And the like I'm using these like ridiculous.
00:12:01.040Of course, this is like this ridiculous lib caricature of both the Florida quote, don't say gay law and the, you know, evolution law that Clarence Darrow was challenging.
00:12:12.500Doesn't matter. Basically, you're giving goals to your enemies.
00:12:15.900And when basically you're doing something that purports to be strategic, but is actually this like printing press for your enemy, like, why are you doing this?
00:12:25.540Like you're actually that's like sort of objectively somewhat, you know, it's like and and so when I basically look, you know, circle back at what's tempting to be done here.
00:12:41.480And I would say that myself and like Chris Ruffo agree on the fundamental existential importance of owning the lips.
00:12:53.560However, we disagree completely on the way to do it.
00:12:59.080My feeling is that owning the libs involves and like in a way politics is like sex, like you're you're you're sort of aiming to build this like relationship of like ownership, which is almost a sexual relationship.
00:13:13.900And there's there's sort of two ways to kind of create, you know, the ownership of that kind of bond, which you might call seduction and rape.
00:13:21.840And, you know, both seduction and rape has created many, you know, wonderful human beings.
00:13:29.440Many of our ancestors were the products of rape.
00:13:31.620I'm not saying rape can't make babies.
00:13:36.560However, I am on the side of seduction.
00:13:38.280And the reason I'm on the side of seduction, especially in this case, is I don't think Chris Ruffo and Ron DeSantis have it in them to be rapists.
00:13:48.860I think what they're doing instead is that they're being a little bit rapey.
00:13:54.000And I can tell you that being a little bit rapey never once conceived a child.
00:13:59.160We hope you're enjoying your Air Canada flight.
00:14:29.440So I think what most people are going to push back at, besides the metaphor there, is the assertion that they're not trying to acquire power, right?
00:14:55.900So saying that you're feeding people narratives is something that I think a lot of people have a problem with because they say, look, they have a narrative if we sleep at night.
00:15:04.040And so no matter what action you take, we'll be decried as the second coming of the mid-century Germans.
00:15:09.960Actually, like, you know, that's also wrong, I would say, in that you're like, yes, you know, basically any way that you have of being a little bit rapey is going to be like, this is Hitler.
00:15:25.260This is like the king of all rapists ever, right?
00:15:27.840And so they're like, you know, why shouldn't I be a little bit rapey?
00:15:30.340I'll be called a rapist even if I'm not, you know, doing anything rapey.
00:15:33.840The reality is, like, dude, you're not doing anything rapey.
00:15:36.440But even if you're, like, thinking in a rapey way, like, you know, these people will, like, feel it.
00:15:42.100And then they'll be like, are you a rapist?
00:15:43.800They're like, well, I don't usually rape, but, you know, right?
00:15:46.080You know, and so, you know, getting yourself in the mindset of, like, no, the only way to win is to actually seduce my enemies, to actually tempt them into showing them that I have something sexier than who they're married to right now, right?
00:16:04.660You know, and that's, like, just a deeply, deeply different approach from, like, anything, like, rapey.
00:16:13.660Like, and that's an approach that basically says, okay, here's how you're going to win the culture war.
00:16:20.900You are going to make not even mainstream, like, it's not even you're going to, like, make more money with your conservative movies.
00:16:29.360Like, no, that's not even the first step of the problem is to make money with your conservative books and movies or whatever.
00:16:36.320No, actually, what's an even deeper problem is you have to be cooler than them.
00:16:40.300You have to basically make, you know, you have to get to win the culture war.
00:16:50.920And so when I look at the kind of people that are kind of trying to win the culture war by sort of this, like, dominance of, like, mass institutions, it's like you come across, like, you love trees.
00:17:03.020And you come across one day, like, there's this, like, forest, which, like, has been cut down.
00:17:43.360You'd have to basically be doing something that doesn't have this spellbinding return of, like, this feeling, you know, all of, like, conservative, like, propaganda sort of, you know, it's, like, always, like, the name of Turning Point USA, like, like, embodies this situation where it's just like, we're about to win.
00:18:06.780And, like, you know, like, to get to a turning point, you'd have to be, like, unrecognizably different from where we are.
00:18:18.060Instead, you're basically selling, you know, people this delusion of impact and this delusion of getting something done that will, like, solve the problem of, like, wokeness in America.
00:18:30.240And I'm, like, you know, I can give you, I think, a pretty persuasive argument that the age of the problem of, like, wokeness in America is probably between 400 and 500 years old.
00:18:41.800I think it can be traced back to the reign of Henry VIII.
00:18:45.680And I'm not, and certainly to Elizabeth.
00:18:48.380And the, like, and, and, and because you're basically, wokeness is the modern creation, it's the modern iteration of Puritanism.
00:19:01.960It's the, like, the religion of New England.
00:19:04.080It's, like, you know, the same thing over and over again.
00:19:07.240Right, and so when you're basically saying, hey, this is not a problem that started in 2012, this is something bigger and deeper and much more historical than anything.
00:19:19.940And it is not going to be fixed by a Band-Aid.
00:19:22.560It is not going to be, sort of, like, fixed in this, like, kind of, like, cheap, like, rapey way.
00:19:27.960It's, like, no, actually, you have to be, like, you know, tell me, like, Ron DeSantis, if you're on this call.
00:19:36.920But, you know, if Ron DeSantis was on the call, I would basically be, like, suppose you had actually, you know, I don't, it doesn't even make, this concept doesn't even make sense.
00:19:48.220But suppose you had, basically, absolute power in Florida.
00:20:04.400And so the problem is that if you come, if knowing that nothing like this can ever happen, you come out and you say, well, nothing like this can ever happen.
00:20:15.800You know, we're just, like, putting some band-aids on managing the decline here.
00:20:19.060And, you know, giving a place for you to send your, like, kid where, to college so he, like, learns math instead of, you know, acquiring three breasts.
00:20:33.320Then, you know, and, and if Ron DeSantis could come out and basically say, this is not a solvable problem.
00:20:39.840You can't solve the problems with this problem with a tool that you have.
00:20:43.100You're basically, if this is the America that you believed in, this is not your America, never was your America.
00:20:49.120And basically just, like, bend over, lube up, you know, and, and that's not a message that gets a lot of, you know, I believe that to be the truth, sort of from at least the perspective that someone like Ron DeSantis is operating in.
00:21:03.680I believe that basically, you know, the effects of the, on the national conversation of DeSantis, you know, type stunts, you know, Martha's Vineyard or whatever, right, is basically to generate more subscribers to the New York Times, more contributions to the ACLU,
00:21:27.120more feeling among, you're giving the aristocracy of this country, the blue state elite, exactly what they want, which is this basically fee, enough fear that they basically feel that they have to, like, band together and, like, you know, put in machine gun posts to repel the crazy peasants with pitchforks, and you're not actually threatening them.
00:21:52.980You're not actually doing anything, like, dangerous. You're not actually going to park any tanks in Harvard Yard. You're just making them, giving this, like, giving them this, like, little frisson of excitement that they need to get through their, like, stale bureaucracy-ridden days.
00:22:07.300So, really, actually, you're providing this incredibly needed service to the, I mean, think about what you're doing for, like, journalism. You're, like, basically, like, everyone can come out and say, wow, you know, we're scared of the new, like, the new American fascism is developing with, like, Ron DeSantis, who is Italian, like Mussolini, who is the original fascist, right?
00:22:29.780You know, and, like, and, like, and, I mean, they played that game with Trump for years. I mean, Trump won the Republican nomination because he was just too good for the liberal media not to cover, right?
00:22:41.320They loved him, and the, like, they're not going to do that this time. I think they got genuinely scared, but, you know, they're, I mean, the DNC is supporting, like, all the kook candidates in Republican primaries that it can find,
00:22:56.860and so, typically, you're going to get this effect where, you know, your primary is, like, a Koch brothers-supported, like, Bushite versus, like, the craziest kook that the DNC can find, and, you know, like, there's nothing, again, you're just,
00:23:19.480you're completely jammed up there in terms of anything sort of reasonable and realistic and effective, so, yeah, I think that, you know, unfortunately, one of the things that I sort of really dislike about this kind of, like, regime change light rhetoric is that it just falls into this sort of, you know,
00:23:45.240the culture war rhetoric, it just falls into this, like, category of something that's, like, really good for its enemies.
00:23:54.680If you want to understand how to win a culture war by force, by political force, then go to Wikipedia and look for the entry for denazification,
00:24:09.240denazification, and you'll find what it takes to basically change the mind of an entire country by force.
00:24:17.620It basically requires, like, you know, having, like, 10% of the country fill out a de-woke-ification questionnaire that will then be judged by a new, like, judicial force of, like, 50,000 base judges
00:24:30.520who will decide whether you get canceled for, like, having been woke or, you know, just even not having been anti-woke.
00:24:37.660If you weren't anti-woke, don't expect to keep that job as a professor, right?
00:24:41.900You know, and the thing is, if you're prepared to do something like that and you actually have the power to do it,
00:24:49.700the support to do it, the energy to do it, who am I to say no?
00:24:55.880But the thing is, basically, you know, like, being a little bit rapey, especially from someone who's basically just simply does not have any qualifications to be a rapist, frankly,
00:25:08.720is just, like, this sort of ridiculous stunt that can only end badly.
00:25:12.680And the fact that sort of DeSantis' stunts are, like, more realistic than Trump's stunts, which usually didn't even happen at all,
00:25:23.080is just, like, it's sort of the wrong message in the wrong direction.
00:25:54.700So, if you want to, like, if you basically, like, the choice, being a little bit rapey is, like, not an effective choice here.
00:26:06.420And so, if you're basically ready to seduce with a lot of power very, very fast, that's an option, too.
00:26:15.840But the thing is, again, you have to, like, do it and seducing, like, you know, let's look at, for example, if, like, DeSantis was like, okay, I'm going to basically, like, seduce a new elite.
00:26:33.480And I'm going to basically say, okay, you know, all the cool kids who don't fit in and are, like, get 1600s on their SATs are going to want to go to new college.
00:26:44.500If you wanted to go to MIT but you're tired of woke shit, that's got to be 15% at least of the MIT application pool, like, go here.
00:26:55.180You know, that's something relatively faster you can do.
00:26:58.160If you want to go even faster, you know, do crazy things like take the whole Florida public school system and put every public school under the control of the local PTA.
00:27:10.260Like, at that point, you're basically, like, saying, okay, yeah, we're, like, you know, like, if you want to start actually blowing up large things, either you have the power to blow up large things or you don't.
00:27:25.600If you don't, ask for the power to blow up large things and basically say, hey, Floridians, you know, if you elect me next year, we're going to have radical change to the public school system.
00:27:39.960Radical change will consist of every public school is under the absolute control of its parents.
00:27:46.100They can run it themselves, which would be crazy, or they can hire a contracting firm to run it for them.
00:27:52.460And, like, that's how you're going to get different textbooks in Florida.
00:27:56.240You're going to get textbooks that basically appeal to some firm that is working on behalf of the parents that's like, holy shit, we're a Christian school.
00:28:04.380You know, versus the, like, little bit rapey version of saying we're going to pass a law that says textbooks in Florida will not endorse, you know, communism or race communism or whatever, you know, wokeism or whatever, you know, whatever the kids are calling it these days.
00:28:17.540Right. You know, and basically, you know, it's like these, like, big, effective, like, powerful moves.
00:28:27.980Yeah. Like, if you can sort of imagine making that move or if you can even say, OK, this is the kind of move that we need to make where we're just going to basically take everyone in the Florida public school system who is not a teacher,
00:28:42.460fire them all and put the teachers under the exclusive control of the local PTA.
00:28:48.240And if they want the local PTA wants to teach them that, like, Jesus created the world in 4 B.C., like, we'll order up some books and they'll be about Jesus creating the world in 4 B.C.
00:28:59.180And, you know, probably what happens if you're like a blue state person who believes in the Big Bang and all of that?
00:29:04.920Well, probably you shouldn't have moved there. Get out.
00:29:07.120You know, and like the like, again, you know, you can imagine sort of moving with actual strength if you get your mind out of this mindset that believes that these really negligible actions,
00:29:27.580which basically only stimulate the enemy, are substantive.
00:29:32.380You know, I came up with a with a, you know, funny analogy for this, which is simply, you know, when you're talking about power,
00:29:40.560you're talking about something that can be defined on a unit range.
00:29:45.340It's like zero to one or zero percent to 100 percent.
00:29:47.840You either have no power, which is zero percent, or you have absolute power, you know, maybe just in some space and that's 100 percent.
00:29:55.260And one way, but, you know, one way of talking about percentages, you know, that I like because I like to drink is alcohol.
00:30:05.960So, you know, we can instead speak in terms of proof and we can say that basically, let's say Ron DeSantis wants to turn the Florida educational system
00:30:16.980into what it was in 1890 modulo and, you know, a few changes, you know, or turn it into anything, turn it into anything he wants.
00:30:27.720And basically, or anything the parents want or just like complete regime change in the Florida schools.
00:30:33.420OK, that's like 200 proof. That's like the grain alcohol.
00:30:36.880My little like give control of the schools to the PTA is like the grain alcohol of education reform.
00:30:42.200OK, so, you know, when we basically say compare the grain alcohol of education reform to don't say gay or whatever you call it, if you're not a lib, what do you call it if you're not a lib?
00:30:56.220I believe it's the parental rights or protections bill.
00:30:59.900The parental rights or protections bill.
00:31:01.780So you compare my proposal for protecting parents' rights and that proposal for protecting parents' rights.
00:31:10.380So if my proposal is basically 200 proof, 180 proof, whatever, straight up ever clear, you know, how would you describe the actual thing that got passed in terms of proof?
00:31:22.240Well, you know, it's a little known fact that I think you're on the lower range, frankly, of alcoholic beverages.
00:31:29.380In fact, I think you may even be below the range of what we normally consider alcohol.
00:31:34.880It's a little known fact, for example, that orange juice, even Florida orange juice is often about one proof.
00:31:41.080And so basically what you're doing when you're doing this is basically selling people a glass of orange juice and calling it a screwdriver.
00:31:47.940And like, you know, for money and office and fame and all of these like corrupt things.
00:31:53.820And I just like I can't get behind basically taking these people who have this like real desire to like send their children to school and like have their children come out of that school with the same beliefs that they learned at home and were taught.
00:32:07.720And, you know, it's really none of my business how like, you know, offensive those beliefs are to like myself as like a California, New York Jew.
00:32:16.920Right. You know, and and if you basically take those people who have a real problem to solve, they really need to get hammered.
00:32:27.220They're at that bar for a reason. Right.
00:32:28.940They need that screwdriver. And you're basically saying, OK, here's a screwdriver and you pass that person a glass of orange juice like you're not a good person.
00:32:38.920Like you're not doing a good thing. You're not like, you know, this is not the initial salvo.
00:32:43.800And, you know, this person is going to be pretty sad at the end of the night.
00:32:46.640They feel that they've had six screwdrivers and they should be absolutely wild.
00:32:50.540And instead, like nothing is happening and they're just pretending to be drunk.
00:32:54.500And and like this is what you're doing when you basically do the sort of take the kind of little bit rapey approach to culture war.
00:33:03.020But doesn't it feel like everything then is too incremental? Right.
00:33:05.860Like I agree that the program you're describing would be far more total in its ability to to kind of change the paradigm.
00:33:12.720Sure. I mean, it's still insufficient. Right.
00:33:15.400People are going to say, well, overall shape, shape, you know, like but at least it's like something.
00:33:20.560Right. It's still like basically not, you know, it's not a like deep national transformation of the spirit.
00:33:27.940Right. You know. And so, you know, like you have to acknowledge that if you think America is on as wrong a path
00:33:40.240as it seems to be to the people who voted for Ron DeSantis, then, yeah, you actually do need a deep national transformation of the spirit.
00:33:49.920And you don't get a deep national transformation of the spirit without a deep national transformation of the regime.
00:33:56.520Right. You know. And and so, like, there are plenty of ways to imagine the depth of that change and the depth of such a change.
00:34:06.560And not only does it not have to involve any kind of violence, I can't even imagine it coming close to working if you thought about it that way,
00:34:14.040because it has to be basically much more seductive than rapey.
00:34:18.540And, you know, and like the feeling of any kind of change like this should be like extremely joyous.
00:34:25.820And it should be extremely joyous, basically involving the like it should have an avant garde of people that just like absolutely feel the right to be in charge.
00:34:43.700And these are people who know that there is no one in the world cooler or more on top of it or like better informed of them.
00:34:52.440These are people who, like, believe they are the future. You've got to grow that. You don't have it.
00:34:58.240And like and so, yeah, I'm like, OK, I can imagine sort of more like rapey ways to do things like my proposal to, you know, give the parents control of the school system.
00:35:12.260Are are they ready for that in Florida?
00:35:14.940You know, but like the thing is that, you know, even if you basically adopt this sort of approach of dominating by force,
00:35:25.840having this kind of like clean, decisive, the old thing is out and the new thing is in is like very different from I mean, you know,
00:35:35.180it's like my like metaphor of like the sort of loss of I mean, just absence of will that characterized the Trump administration.
00:35:44.480It's like you had this incredible like populist revolution.
00:35:47.540People really thought that they were like electing a totally different future.
00:35:50.980And they get this guy, Donald Trump, who really feels like a big man, feels like a king, talks a big game.
00:35:57.480And, you know, he's like a winner. Right. And they get him and his job is to basically make sure Humpty Dumpty has a great fall.
00:36:06.080And he gets up there on the wall with Humpty Dumpty and it's like it's really high up and he like looks down.
00:36:11.520He's like, holy shit, I could fall. And like what's going to happen here?
00:36:15.040And instead of pushing Humpty Dumpty off the wall, he basically reaches over and gives him a little little tap on the eggshell.
00:36:21.080All right. And Humpty Dumpty flips the heck out and is like, oh, my God, it's a long way down.
00:36:27.720I'm a frickin egg. I could be like, you know, and he like gets his tap on the face.
00:36:32.000He kind of rocks back and forth. He's like, I'm going to fall. And he's like, OK, I'm not going to fall.
00:36:36.820And then he's like calls for like all the king's horses and all the king's men and all the king's horses and all the king's men would not have been able to put Humpty back together again.
00:36:45.260But can they knock Donald Trump off the frickin wall and can they tear him apart?
00:36:49.380They sure can. And can they tear apart anyone who ever supported or worked for him?
00:36:54.100They sure can. And that's exactly what they did.
00:36:57.040And like, you know, down to like the ridiculous January 6th like fiasco.
00:37:01.280And like it just shows that like, you know, there's a sense in which you look at like the whole Trump experience and like MAGA and Twitter and all of that.
00:37:14.060And you're just like you're not tall enough for this ride.
00:37:16.680And the problem is that, you know, Ron DeSantis comes in, who's like, you know, gone to Harvard and Yale and been in the Navy and is only in his 40s.
00:37:26.860And like, you know, probably, you know, did he kill people?
00:37:29.440Has DeSantis, did DeSantis kill anyone in the military? Was he a jag?
00:37:33.520I think he was a pilot, but I'm not sure.
00:37:35.860Yeah, yeah. I worry that he was a jag because he went to law school in which instead of killing people, he got Americans killed.
00:37:41.420But I'm sure if he was a jag, he worked on the rules of engagement as best he could.
00:38:15.720Yeah, the you know, I don't believe that like blaze viewers like buy subscriptions to the blaze and like because they want to be grifted.
00:38:23.860I don't believe that anyone supports Ron DeSantis because they want to be grifted.
00:38:27.700I don't believe anyone supports Ron DeSantis because they want to basically give put a shot of energy in their enemies veins while accomplishing essentially nothing.
00:38:35.800But I like, you know, and so, yeah, like I think that, you know, the the, you know, clearly people like Chris Ruffo like see a real problem and they're like very good at like exposing that problem.
00:38:50.380They're sort of exposing it in a world where like you're exposing it to who and what are they going to do?
00:38:55.980Right. You know, and then you actually start like trying to do things and you're basically just like.
00:39:02.420You know, I don't know what they're going to plan to do to like new college, but, you know, the idea that you're going to get this board in there and they're going to like pass some like rule that says, you know, there will be no woke at new college.
00:39:16.600Right. And then, you know, all the students will like defy the rule and hold huddle little, you know, meetings in which they like get woke together.
00:39:23.540Right. You know, and it's just like it's so childish. It's so small. It's so and it's so like self-defeating and and it sort of lacks the confidence that you would expect to see in anything that had a potential to create real change.
00:39:41.660I love saying creating change when I mean regime change, but the yeah, it's it's like, you know, so it's sort of like to sort of see these existential chiliastic even ideas become sort of a little more mainstream is one thing.
00:40:02.900But it basically the problem is that it really tends to emphasize rape over seduction and when you dilute it like to, you know, one to a thousand, you basically get this formula for being like a little bit rapey, which is this like perfect sort of grift formula and it's like perfectly designed to essentially not like work.
00:40:31.760And it's not like and like as far as like the question of like sincerity of the people behind it, I don't think any of these people basically go in with like, I'm going to be a grifter. I'm going to like grift today.
00:40:45.580You know, it's just like the path of the grifter is the path of least resistance. It's sort of the path down which you flow and like you come in there trying to make a difference and do something different.
00:40:58.300And 10 years later, having followed the path that like functions and works and like gives you like momentum and like, you know, mass and like seems to be working and you look down at yourself and you notice that you have become completely a grifter because you basically followed that path of least resistance.
00:41:17.940And I mean, like if there's a sin here, it's original sin, right? You know, it's like, these are not bad people like by any means, but, you know, and it's would be very hard for me.
00:41:35.600Like, I can't imagine like being, you know, if I was in a room with Ron DeSantis, what I what would I tell him to do instead?
00:41:49.840I don't know, I wouldn't be this, but like what I have some like great optimism that there was some like great plan, I got to get next to Ron DeSantis to give him my like my like great plan, you know, like, I don't, you know, think I have anything like that.
00:42:02.800And so, you know, my extent, you know, the, the being in the position of blaming someone for doing something rather than nothing, when I think they should do nothing really is like, yeah, I don't, I, you know, I don't want to sound like too like nasty here, but I think you get where I'm coming from.
00:42:24.400Yeah, I just think for a lot of people, it sounds like saying, well, red Americans should just give up, like, sorry, Chuds, pack it up, you know, you're just going to be under this until, you know, some cadre of elites, you know, rolls in to save you and, you know, sweeps everyone off their feet until then and just kind of buckle down.
00:42:41.860And the reality is that what I'm actually saying to the Chuds is, reculer pour, I'm going to butcher some French for you, like French is going to be murder here, reculer pour mieux sauter, which means step back to jump farther.
00:42:55.060And the thing is, if you recognize that this is not a cosmetic problem, this is a serious problem, and you need to devote serious attention to it rather than, like, you know, frankly, like, hey, Chuds, like, if you treat this like a Pac-10 game, like, you're not going to win, you're not being a college football fan here.
00:43:15.860Like, you know, stop, like, feeding your emotions and feeding, like, your need for drama and things that make you go, rah, we're going to own the lips.
00:43:24.800No, no, actually, like, this matters. This is important. And, like, you actually have to, like, win in a sense that works.
00:43:31.880Because, yeah, things are just going to get worse and worse and worse. And we already know what that future looks like. It looks like the third world.
00:43:38.880It looks like the third world. And we're going to get a moment in about 10 or 20 years when the Supreme Court rules that, to use a phrase that you often hear in California, no person is illegal.
00:43:49.920And you're going to basically see that the entire idea of restricting human beings to keep them out of the North American continent is a racist.
00:44:02.760And that's at a point when basically you get about approximately, well, certainly hundreds of millions of Africans moving to this country because they can.
00:44:13.020And why wouldn't you? And at that point, you're in a completely different ballgame.
00:44:18.440And you've basically, like, lost this ballgame because you were just, like, screwing around.
00:44:24.440And, like, the, because the thing is that, like, when you look at the way that American sort of populism, the, like, the mass of the right, the people who are opposed to, like, the elites, have used their power since really the 1920s.
00:44:39.980What you basically see is that power has been diminishing since the 1920s and every point it's been basically squandered on bullshit.
00:44:50.920And so, yeah, the reality is, like, okay, Chuds, you know, maybe you might want to figure out how you can get more than 50% of you to, like, vote in an election.
00:45:01.340Maybe you can try to figure out how you can basically win every primary by actually getting primary voters to the polls, which are very sparsely attended, in order to basically produce a faction of, you know, Thomas Massey's and J.D. Vance's, essentially.
00:45:19.420And, you know, people who are, like, actually serious, capable people who are, you know, nonetheless completely determined, those people out there, you know, find them, make sure they win the primaries, make sure that every Republican voter in Florida has an app on his phone, his or her phone, that is going to send them to the primary to vote for the right person on that election.
00:45:44.220And literally, like, gives them a freaking map pop-up and tells them how to walk to the polling place, gets a mail-in ballot delivered to their house.
00:45:52.220Like, basically, yeah, like, you want to win, don't care about issues, care about power.
00:45:58.200And, you know, when you're basically caring about issues and, like, you're just showing that you're not serious and your enemies only pretend to care about issues, all they care about is power.
00:46:09.060They'll take any issue that gives them power in any direction.
00:46:13.800They'll be globalists, you know, one day and nationalists another day.
00:46:19.700You know, like, every time you hear a liberal do a land acknowledgement, I don't know if they do these in Florida or in occupied Seminole land, they're endorsing the Nazi principle of blood and soil.
00:46:30.640And, you know, what that basically tells you is that these people will say anything to win.
00:47:00.440And, like, so, for example, one of the best things that, you know, DeSantis has done, let's praise DeSantis for a moment.
00:47:07.980Like, you know, you'll notice, you might have noticed that in the 2022 midterm elections, there was a rather, one of the reasons why some early commentators got a little tripped up is that they saw the results coming out of Florida.
00:47:23.440And the results coming out of Florida were for a giant red wave.
00:47:27.740Strangely, this wave did not appear elsewhere in America.
00:47:33.640I'm sure this has nothing to do with the election reforms of Ron DeSantis.
00:48:37.280You know, so maybe a little more extreme than what DeSantis did.
00:48:41.160But basically, strangely enough, when you basically be like, you know, you put a little bit of energy into a certain kind of election security, then, I don't know, maybe it's just DeSantis' like personal popularity that caused these disparities in voting between Florida and non-Florida.
00:49:03.680All I know is that looks like it worked.
00:49:06.760And so when you basically say, I'm going to basically get some power by being elected governor of Florida, and then I'm going to use that power to, like, you know, implement election security, and that power is going to sort of pay a dividend of, like, keeping me in power.
00:49:26.200Like, you know, then you're using power in the right way.
00:49:29.920You're actually doing a thing that works.
00:49:31.520And, you know, if this country could get back to one-day elections with the secret ballot, I don't know how many extra, like, Republican, how that would change the balance of voting.
00:49:46.180I mean, it's really hard to know sort of what goes into, like, a mail-in ballot campaign.
00:49:56.020But, you know, yeah, that seemed to deliver, like, a solid Republican edge in Florida of, like, 2% to 5% of the vote or whatever in a very unimpeachable way.
00:50:06.840And so doing that sort of thing where you basically use power to build more power instead of getting power and just, like, you know, spending it immediately like a ghetto lottery winner is, like, you know, yeah, right.
00:50:24.940If you're in it to win it, the way to be in it to win it is not to be, like, rah, rah, rah, rah, rah.
00:50:30.060You know, it's to actually use your energy much, much more efficiently, you know, recognize that it's not 1776.
00:50:39.920Americans are not going to arm themselves and, like, take to the streets and, like, you know, storm the government buildings or whatever the heck.
00:50:46.580You know, no, you want basically simple and easy things that basically allow your voters who just want a grill to do one thing one time and win completely.
00:50:57.840And if that's your mindset, you're going to get, like, way better and way different results.
00:51:06.380Moreover, you know, even you have to respect the grift.
00:51:10.660It's very important to respect the grift.
00:51:13.100If, like, the world tells you that there's, like, an element of, like, grift here, like, okay, you have to basically.
00:51:20.560But the thing is doing it for real is often a better grift, right?
00:51:26.140Really, actually, like, if you're, like, okay, I'm a grifter.
00:51:31.840Like, but the thing is the more you can keep it real, like, the more real you can be, the more you will, like, feel the energies of, like, heaven moving behind you.
00:51:41.980You know, and saying, like, this grift has substance.
00:51:44.560And people will, like, hear your grift and be, like, and then compare it to the other grift, which is so much less real.
00:51:50.080And they'll be, like, wow, this is the real shit, you know?
00:51:53.400And so, again, like, you know, doing it in this sort of little grifty, like, way, which sort of seems to be scary and is just, like, provocative is, like, so different from, like, you know, you know, the future is a completely different world.
00:52:15.920And, like, the future is a completely different world can be, like, you know, there's, there's, it is possible to seduce even blue elites.
00:52:29.440It's, I know this because I'm a blue elite myself, you know, and I read the wrong books and I got seduced and I can never come back.
00:52:38.360And, you know, and, and, and, like, the, you know, these were, these were old books, right?
00:52:43.600You know, it's possible to, like, refine that message and make it more seductive and basically, you know, point yourself in the direction of, like, what used to be the dirt bag left.
00:52:57.060And you're, like, yeah, actually, these are people who, if you're selling them, sorry, if you're selling them, if you're selling elites a real future that is, like, really different, they want to be on that bandwagon.
00:53:20.320And, like, to say that that real future involves, like, peasants in the Florida panhandle who, like, believe in God and, like, just want to grill and, you know, all they got to, all they want to do is raise their children to believe in, like, the Sky Fairy like they believe it.
00:53:39.460You know, like, actually, there's a way that you can say to even blue state people, okay, I know you believe in science, science, not God, right?
00:53:50.080But actually, you can let these people be.
00:53:53.980And, and, like, you don't need to, like, persecute them.
00:53:56.420You don't need to trans their children.
00:53:59.880Are you, like, going into, like, Amish country and saying, like, all the Amish must become trans?
00:54:03.860No, you're by their beautiful furniture with your, like, you know, funny money that the Fed prints for you, right?
00:54:09.840You know, like, and, and that's, like, a much more, you know, if you basically, it's, like, you know, the, you know, being seductive versus being rapey.
00:54:19.340Being rapey is, like, okay, I'm going to, like, threaten the libs into, like, you know, they're going to fear me and they're going to do, you know, you know, what I want because I'm, like, going to make them fear me, you know, which is, like, a strategy.
00:54:33.960Reminiscent of the bad custody battle, you know, and where I'm, like, you know, like, threaten this person into, like, doing the right thing, right?
00:54:41.680You know, and, and the, like, actually, you know, if you basically say to the blue state elites, hey, like, you don't have to be afraid anymore, right?
00:54:57.820It's what the hobbits out there in Florida should want.
00:54:59.920It's also what you should want, like, because it's going to be amazing for you, too, and, like, we're not going to, like, try to turn you into hobbits and, you know, you don't have to go and take all the, you don't have to protect yourself by this, like, impossible task of turning these, like, Cajun swamp creatures into, like, Jews, right?
00:55:19.080You know, like, you could give up on that, you know, it's expensive.
00:55:24.160Just let them be hobbits, you know, and, and, and, like, that sense of, like, I'm going to take away your fear, not by, like, making you agitated, but, like, by, like, actually, like, making you more chill.
00:55:38.200And saying, okay, you can actually, here's a future where, hey, you know, when I imagine the right government for America, America has many kinds of people in it, including both progressives and conservatives.
00:55:52.720And, like, yeah, if you're a progressive, your children should go to a progressive school.
00:55:57.560And if they're conservatives, if you're a conservative parent, your children should go to a conservative school.
00:56:02.680And, like, you know, if I say that and people look at me like I'm crazy, like, I'm going to keep saying it, you know.
00:56:08.580And, and that's a very, and so in that kind of vision, basically, you're a progressive.
00:56:15.160You don't have to be afraid of, like, you know, some, like, Southern Baptist minister coming to your, like, little progressive education Waldorf school and, like, convincing your children that, like, Jesus will take you to hell or something, right?
00:56:30.200You know, and, and, like, that's actually, it's kind of more appealing.
00:56:34.960And it also involves, like, a kind of appeal to power that is actually rather attractive because, yeah, you know, standing between, like, elites want power.
00:56:52.480And if you basically offer that to them in a way that's appealing, that, like, is actually, like, real and not a stunt, and it's not like, oh, I'm going to, like, scare you into, like, supporting your enemies, like, it's actually much more appealing.
00:57:10.740It's actually, like, something that can sell.
00:57:13.820And when you basically say is, you know, okay, I want to fight, I want to attack, I want to own the libs.
00:58:01.840And the thing is, it's not, like, you know, like, what you're doing from the perspective, like, they actually, the thing that's motivating these voters on both sides is actually on the, among the libs, yeah, there's a substantial portion of hate amongst the fear, but there's a lot of fear.
00:58:27.500And, like, and so, they, you know, they're really, like, you know, the Times is, like, selling them fear every day.
00:58:34.680And the, and this has been the case since, like, the 80s when I started reading, like, the New York Times, right?
00:58:40.440I would get my daily dose of, like, being afraid of the peasants, like, every day.
00:58:44.740And it's just, it's tiresome, and it's not really consistent with their values.
00:58:50.420And because it's not really consistent with their values, where they're, like, have this weird cognitive dissonance of, like, going to their Unitarian Universalist church and being taught not to hate, and then reading the New York Times and being taught to hate, right?
00:59:03.320You know, is, like, that's a burden that they have to carry.
00:59:08.200And, you know, if you want people's, like, support, give them a way of, like, laying down that burden, and then give them something that they have to destroy to, you know, lay it down.
00:59:20.040And, you know, what you're basically, for the latter, of course, yeah, if you want to, like, overthrow anything, you need a friend-enemy conflict.
00:59:28.120Like, guess what your friend-enemy conflict is?
00:59:32.100You know, and so the thing is that, like, you know, if you basically have a viewpoint which is culturally aligned with the ruling class that basically persuades the younger members of the ruling class that the older members of the ruling class should be overthrown, that is a product that you can sell.
00:59:58.620Do you think that the United States could make it through this transition intact?
01:00:04.360There's a lot of talk about national divorce, of course, right now.
01:00:07.760I think a lot of people mean different things by it, like the self-sorting aspect or, you know.
01:00:12.080Yeah, people are sort of LARPing, like, geography, right?
01:00:14.640And the thing is, when I imagine a kind of national divorce that makes sense, like, you know, geographically, it's ridiculous.
01:00:24.080But, you know, the thing is, like, we're not really a nation in which geography matters anyway.
01:00:32.440When I imagine something close to a national divorce that works, it's more like, okay, citizen, here's a form.
01:00:42.220You're going to write on the form which group you're part of.
01:00:45.640And which group you're part of will determine whether your kids go to the blue schools or the red schools.
01:00:50.640This is called pillarization in the Netherlands, works perfectly fine, basically allows each of these groups, you know, sort of takes away their reasons to mess with each other.
01:01:04.460And it doesn't have to be, like, geographic sorting.
01:01:07.560Like, you can live, you know, next door to someone and your kids can go to different schools.
01:01:15.940You know, you can live next door to someone and you can have different laws that govern your marriage than them.
01:01:21.520And then, okay, you know, if you want to, you know, Romeo, red state Romeo wants to marry blue state Juliet, right?
01:01:27.620You know, that's a little more problematic, can be done.
01:01:31.020And, you know, but you're still basically that kind of national divorce is, like, basically makes a lot more sense than the, like, okay, Texas will become a red state.
01:01:43.260And, like, expel the entire population of Austin and, like, a new trail of tears to New Mexico or something, right?
01:01:48.700You know, just, like, retarded ideas like this.
01:01:59.100Sometimes I'll be talking in a more, you know, authorized context and I'll just say the R word, which works rather well.
01:02:05.960Or, you know, and the, or I'll say regarded instead.
01:02:11.940You can try saying regarded, people will look at you and then we'll get it, right?
01:02:15.400You know, and, and the, I'm sorry, I'm, you know, it's been kind of tone, Berkeley.
01:02:20.180But the, like, yeah, you know, like, that is, like, the difference between, like, this sort of thing that's, like, this, like, LARP-y idea based on, like, 18th century politics.
01:02:33.800And, like, a reality that, like, actually works is, like, is sort of emblematic of, like, the difference between, okay, I can see that you feel that this thing is uncomfortable.
01:02:48.900But, like, if you chuds basically hate this thing, but don't hate it enough to stop LARPing and, like, deal with it like grownups, then, yeah, actually you do deserve to lose.
01:03:02.000Because history just doesn't, has no, history has no pity for losers.
01:03:08.700And, like, and so to think in a non-LARP-y way rather than to, like, you know, sort of, conservatism has always sort of operated on this kind of unspoken principle that, like, as you, like, turn the dial up on, like, conservatism, it's, like, don't vote.
01:03:27.300Or votes, you know, joins militia, joins militia, militia storms capital or whatever.
01:03:34.540Like, the dial is basically how well organized can you be and how much are you actually determined simply to take power from your enemies.
01:03:44.160And if you focus simply on building power and taking it from your enemies, you will think in a very, very different and much more effective way.
01:03:52.940So, one thing that you've advocated for pretty regularly is kind of the tech CEO monarch, right?
01:04:09.760You can make toilet paper very well, but, like, yeah, sure, right.
01:04:12.760So, my question is this, you know, you've talked a lot about, you know, being influenced by Thomas Carlyle, you know, condition of England.
01:04:22.040You know, he's looking at these, you know, basically the spreadsheetification of our world and inability of leaders to understand these problems.
01:04:30.600But don't you feel like encouraging a tech CEO to become your monarch is just doubling down on this problem of turning everything into a spreadsheet and quantification?
01:04:40.420Do you feel like that really changes the issue?
01:04:42.740Well, I mean, anything can be done badly, right?
01:04:47.700I mean, you know, the thing is that, like, any CEO or any kind of leader, if they have any kind of competence, will, like, inhabit the problem in front of them.
01:05:00.200And, furthermore, if you're a tech CEO doing anything significant and the only way that you can make decisions is by metrics, like, you're a terrible CEO.
01:05:15.680And, like, actually, often, like, the job of being a CEO involves making decisions that are fundamentally aesthetic with, you know, completely inadequate amounts of information.
01:05:29.640You cannot, like, A, B, test your way to, like, from, like, three guys in a room to a billion-dollar corporation.
01:05:37.460And so you basically need, you know, like, all I'm saying, in a way, is, like, I really don't care if it's a, you know, tech CEO or, like, a, like, you know, construction firm CEO, right?
01:05:53.220You know, the job of, sort of, being a leader with, like, a vision and a purpose and a, like, you know, goal is, like, that's an age-old problem.
01:06:07.540And, you know, it takes a certain kind of human being.
01:06:11.940And it takes, like, and the thing that's sort of most important, like, you know, message to the Chuds, Chud, in case you don't know, is, like, a sort of, it's a racial slur that's used for, like, normal Americans by these blue state people, right?
01:06:26.360And if you don't know what a Chud is, you're a Chud.
01:06:32.260But, like, it's basically a racial slur, you know?
01:06:35.320And, but, like, the great thing to do with racial slurs is to appropriate them, of course.
01:06:39.320And so, you know, my message sort of out, you know, to the Chuds out there is that politics kind of has this, like, pornographic quality where you're just, like, you're viscerally excited by participating in this drama in the same way that you're viscerally,
01:06:56.360excited by watching, like, Alabama play Auburn, you know?
01:06:59.860But when you're watching Alabama play Auburn, you're not actually doing anything.
01:07:03.800And so, you know, everything in politics that gives you this sort of feeling of, like, emotional reward is a luxury.
01:07:15.360It's something that you're doing for yourself and not for others.
01:07:18.680And if you can basically abandon your need for that sort of emotional reward of group participation and, once again, think sort of coldly and cleanly about how to be as powerful as possible,
01:07:32.840you will, again, find yourself getting very, very different answers as to what to do.
01:07:39.700And, you know, so, you know, the mentality of, like, you know, there's this sort of classic sort of mentality of complaint that is part of the legend of American politics where, like, wow, the people are really abused.
01:07:58.820You know, the thing is, the principle of, like, we're mad as hell and we're not going to take it anymore will rise up because of the long list of oppressions that George III has inflicted on us.
01:08:10.740Frankly, that's not actually what happened in the American Revolution.
01:08:14.040That's not why the American Revolution happened.
01:08:19.760And so, you know, the luxury of basically confusing your actual, like, need to win with this kind of rah-rah costume drama stuff, you know, is, like, it's a luxury.
01:08:37.700Like, it's really not helping you out there, Chuds.
01:08:40.640And, like, it's true that, like, you know, when you look at the difference between DeSantis and Charlie Crist or whatever, you know, you sense, okay, DeSantis is a much more serious person and much more, much less of, like, just a pure GOP, Inc. grifter.
01:09:03.840But the kind of grift that he represents is arguably sort of more, like, because it takes the people that really want to do something and makes them feel like they're doing something, it's in some ways an even more dangerous grift.
01:09:29.000And, like, taking that energy, taking that desire to, like, participate in the grift, taking that, like, no, we actually need, like, a government that is not trying to destroy us and destroy our nation, which, you know, is, like, as the Bible says, you know, when I become a man, I put aside childish things.
01:09:53.860And I feel like there's still much that is, like, very childish about the way that Republican politics is conducted today.
01:10:08.120One thing I've heard you say, and it's very interesting because James Burnham obviously did a lot of work with the Machiavellians, I've heard you say that you're not a fan of the managerial revolution.
01:10:19.560Do you think the idea of the managerial class is just bunk, or what is your problem?
01:10:23.380The problem with the idea of the, you know, if you'd have called it the bureaucratic revolution, I wouldn't have had a problem with it.
01:10:30.220The fundamental, you know, like, unfortunately, the main idea of the managerial revolution is also the most wrong idea of the managerial revolution, because it's this equation between bureaucrats and managers.
01:10:43.960And, you know, as someone who sort of has seen the bureaucratic side of it and, like, knows, just from my background and knows the managerial side of it directly, these things couldn't be more different.
01:10:58.220Because bureaucracy fundamentally has this bottom-up tone of, like, diffusing responsibility, whereas management is the concentration of responsibility.
01:11:08.980And so, you know, when you look at a bureaucratic organization, it functions by process.
01:11:16.160And when you look at a kind of truly managerial organization, it works like an army, it works by command.
01:11:24.760And there's really, like, command and process are, like, the two opposed poles of how to run a large organization.
01:11:33.080There's always a little bit of process with your command.
01:11:37.320There's always a little bit of command with your process.
01:11:40.260But essentially, you know, by equating the two and by describing this, like, managerial class, which, you know, okay, it's like an educated class, is the, like, as the same as, like, government bureaucrats is, like, fundamentally not correct.
01:12:03.080So, if you just switched out the phrase bureaucratic class, would you find that the self-interest and the bureaucratic drift inside things like corporations and guarantees a compelling narrative?
01:12:17.640Well, if you look at the bureaucratization of the private sector, again, you know, equating, like, you know, if you equate a bureaucrat with a manager,
01:12:30.060you basically don't see the tension between the two and you don't see basically how, if you look at, like, Google over the last 20 years, it goes from being this very command-oriented, very startup-y kind of organization to this very bottom-up, long-house-y, bureaucratic, oligarchical structure.
01:12:51.340That's very related to Google being a monopoly and having no real competitive pressures from the outside.
01:12:59.840And the, like, I mean, monopoly should either be part of the government or they should be part of an economic order that's structured to allow competition.
01:13:10.520And, you know, when you have sort of neither, you have, like, unaccountable stuff and you have stuff that decays like Google.
01:13:17.900And when you have a monopoly that is not externally responsible in the proper way, then the, like, the, you know, it's just, like, bureaucracy grows like mold and fungus.
01:13:39.060And bureaucracy is fundamentally, unlike a command organization, bureaucracy is fundamentally self-interested.
01:13:46.060And so it basically develops these James Burnham-like things.
01:13:51.940Bureaucracy is interested in power, so it grows in HR, you know.
01:13:56.820I mean, the right doesn't work like the left, but imagine, you know, Google's HR being taken over by, like, Christians, like, really hardcore Christians.
01:14:06.220And then, you know, they basically put a, you know, a thumb on the scale, like, if you believe in God, you know.
01:14:11.620I mean, nothing's, you know, this is, like, to examine the level.
01:14:18.080I mean, revolutions, you know, have arrows.
01:14:23.220They don't work in the opposite of revolution is not revolution in the opposite direction, as Maestria said.
01:14:31.320But if we imagine, you know, I was just talking to a very libertarian, you know, California tech libertarian friend who recounted his time in the 90s protesting while he was at UC Berkeley against loyalty oaths, which were the last vestige of, like, the 1950s.
01:14:50.300Some fool in California in the 1950s, in a very DeSantis-like way, had passed a law saying, professors have to sign an oath that they're not communists.
01:14:59.720Well, what do you suppose the communist professors did?
01:15:02.620They signed an oath that they weren't communists.
01:15:08.380And basically, you know, my friend is, like, Stancy's, like, these loyalty oaths are an outrage, right, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
01:15:13.720Of course, this is, like, completely toothless, like, you know, sort of sop to the, like, idiotic voters of Tolaire County who are subsidizing UC Berkeley, right?
01:15:24.780You know, whereas the 2020s were all around and suddenly we have loyalty oaths again, except they're called, you know, inclusion statements or whatever, and they are enforced.
01:15:35.600And, like, it does matter, like, what you've done.
01:15:38.600So you want to really imagine having power over these institutions.
01:15:42.480Imagine, you know, a situation where to get hired as a mechanical engineering professor at Florida State, you have to submit a document talking about your Christian faith, what you've done for Christ, how you've helped Christians in an academic setting, you know, how you've fought back against, you know, like, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
01:16:08.460That's not the way that, sort of, diversity statements will disappear.
01:16:15.820It's sort of more of a thought experiment of just being, like, this is, these are the levels of power that we're dealing with.
01:16:23.300And the problem is that when you basically do the DeSantis thing of saying passing some, like, toothless law, you know, in the same way that was done in the 20s and the 50s, you're going to pass some toothless law.
01:16:35.140You're basically giving people all of the energy that they would have if, well, they wouldn't have this energy even, but they're sort of imagining a world where to get a job as a professor, you have to show, you know, what you did for Christ.
01:16:51.280And then, hey, you want to work in the private sector, you know, have you made any anti-Christian statements on your Twitters, right?
01:16:58.520You know, have you taken God's name in vain, right?
01:17:01.840You know, and they'll go back and they'll find something from 2018 where you took God's name in vain or something.
01:17:07.020And you'll be like, you know, how can this person, how can a person who takes God's name in vain be working with young people?
01:17:26.340Like, if you can get there with basically having your, like, Christian HR departments in every, you know, company in Florida.
01:17:35.100Like, but, you know, as soon as you say it, you realize that it's, like, not real.
01:17:39.080And, but, you know, what's even less real is basically pretending that you can get the same result with basically a stupid law that says no communism in the classroom or something.
01:17:52.460And, and, and, and, like, you know, and it's sort of, like, like, what I, like, want, like, people to hear, you know, is, like, yeah, like, actually, don't just do nothing.
01:18:16.020Like, things that seem like positive actions can have, like, negative results.
01:18:20.560But even if you're just standing there, you're not standing there just to stand there.
01:18:25.120You're standing there to realize, like, what would it mean to actually solve this problem rather than just sort of, like, you know, it's like if you're an animal and you're, like, in the teeth of a predator, right?
01:18:41.220That's a dangerous situation to be in.
01:18:43.200And your natural impulse is to, like, struggle.
01:18:46.940That predator is designed for animals that basically take out their natural impulse and, like, struggle.
01:18:53.800Struggle sort of implies, like, desperation.
01:19:04.500You basically, you know, it's like the Gom Jabbar scene from, like, Doom.
01:19:09.740Like, you know, you want to win, like, be a human, don't be an animal.
01:19:14.240And when you're basically trying to win, like, an animal, you're just, like, anything that gives me this, like, hit of dopamine of, like, we owned the libs.
01:19:21.840We sent the immigrants to Martha's Vineyard, right?
01:19:24.360You know, like, it's just, like, it's this huge, like, you know, like, like, like, it's exciting, right, to, like, hack the libs, like, that way.
01:19:32.440But it's really, like, all you're doing is, like, hacking the dopamine systems of your supporters so that they basically get another hit so that they keep coming back to your show.
01:20:20.860Actually, Haiti has actually, there are actually no elected officials in Haiti anymore.
01:20:25.600The whole thing just expired before they could hold elections.
01:20:29.080And the real power in Haiti, according to New York Times anyway, is a gang leader named Barbeque.
01:20:35.920Now, there's some debate over the name, actually, of this fellow, Barbeque.
01:20:40.460You'll see it covered on his Wikipedia page.
01:20:42.580You know, according to him, the name Barbeque was given to him because his mother sold fried chicken on the streets of Port-au-Prince.
01:20:51.900And it has nothing to do with burning his enemies alive.
01:20:54.700And, you know, like, let's choose to believe that.
01:20:57.920Let's, you know, maybe we could support, like, there could be, like, a GoFundMe for Barbeque.
01:21:02.680You know, we could support him as, like, the new leader of Haiti or something because, you know, I prefer to see the de facto become the de jure.
01:21:13.840But, you know, it's sort of interesting to look at even just the history of U.S. engagement with Haiti because you've suddenly reached the point where actually there is no appetite in the international community for another invasion of Haiti.
01:21:27.940Like, you know, they could do it in the 20s with the Marines and then, you know, they're doing it in the early 2000s.
01:21:33.940They send the Nepali UN peacekeepers in and the Nepali UN peacekeepers not only accomplish nothing, but, like, give them, like, this, like, nasty Nepali strain of cholera, which is now, like, infesting the country.
01:21:46.420And, you know, you've got to, like, and this challenge, okay, you know, like, I was talking to, this is a reference to a conversation I had with a lib in which he basically suggested that the right public policy for Haiti, like, the thing that would really fix Haiti would be to have a higher minimum wage.
01:22:03.780You know, I mean, you know, you've got to hand it to anyone who has the courage of that level of conviction, right?
01:22:11.360But the thing is, then you go to conservatives and you're like, well, you know, what would be the right thing for Haiti?
01:22:16.360And they would be like, well, they should, you know, the vision of Martin Luther King, you know, was to have the U.S. Constitution in Haiti.
01:22:23.260So, you know, what they really need is the separation of powers and, you know, wisdom of the founders.
01:22:30.540So, you know, so these, for, like, understanding political, real smash mouth political signs from, like, the ground up, like, don't think about, like, oh, what is the right political system for Norway?
01:22:44.220Like, you know, think about what is the right political system for Haiti and then, like, generalize that problem from the hard case of Haiti to the easy case of Norway.
01:22:53.080Because, honestly, Norway can pretty much basically govern itself.
01:22:56.220I mean, Norway's, like, the, like, net testosterone of, like, Norway has been, as far as I can tell, decreasing for, like, the last 2,500 years.
01:23:06.380And there's currently as much testosterone in Norway as there is in the average, like, Ohio high school football team, you know.
01:23:15.120That might mean that someone else might eventually govern Norway, but yeah.
01:23:21.040You know, really, a farsighted government of Norway would be, like, have, like, a testosterone restoration plan, you know, which might involve.
01:23:45.740Oh, yeah, that's an interesting, I guess, I think my recommendation is sort of more for, like, method than for, it's a sort of pretty broad topic.
01:24:00.920So, really, what you're looking for is one out of two things, either books published before 1940 and preferably before 1930, because really the publishing industry becomes essentially woke-ified between 1930 and 1940.
01:24:19.720Or you're looking for obscure publishers, typically between 1950 and 1975, who are basically taking, publishing books by people with pre-war educations and perspectives.
01:24:36.960And so, there you're looking for more niche presses, Western Islands, Arlington House, Devin Adair.
01:24:44.880There's probably equivalents in the UK, but I don't really know them.
01:24:48.520But, yeah, when you basically fall into, you know, the sort of, like, I mean, books from the other side did get published, and you'll know them when you see them.
01:25:01.660And they're all, I mean, you can, you know, I always recommend the fun old movie, Africa Addio, which is like this Italian pro-colonialist history of decolonization in Africa that was made in the late 60s.
01:25:15.060Might want to fast-forward some of the animal cruelty sections, but really a great movie.
01:25:23.940But, yeah, like, you basically, like, you just have to, you know, go looking in the right periods from the right publishers for stuff like that.
01:25:34.740Banned again for $50. Thank you very much, sir. Very generous.
01:25:39.460What does total victory look like? What does total defeat look like?
01:25:43.620Well, I think we touched a little bit on those, but, yeah, a lot of people, what does victory look like here?
01:25:50.700I mean, total defeat looks like, you know, what we have now, but worse.
01:25:55.500It just looks like the third world getting closer and closer and more and more, like, you know, unsolvable.
01:26:03.080I think total victory is a more, the way to sort of conceive of total victory is to imagine the way the future will look at the present, which is its past.
01:26:23.020And if you think about the way people in, like, Germany in 2005 looked at East Germany, you'll sort of have a picture of that where you basically see this, like, you look backward and you see this thing that's, like, yeah, there's, like, you know, sort of economic things wrong with it, like you can't get a banana or whatever.
01:26:44.980But it's just, like, this feeling of, like, complete depression and futility.
01:26:50.460And the number of people in our society who basically, honestly, in their, like, professional and even personal lives are not in a state of, like, depression and futility and general enemy are, like, very low.
01:27:07.420Like, you'll go and find, like, the only sector of society that feels in any sense alive is the uppermost upper class.
01:27:21.660And you'll find, like, lower Manhattan is hopping, you know, like, it's doing great, you know.
01:27:29.100And, you know, if you're part of the ruling class, life still works for you.
01:27:36.080We can't imagine a world in which life has begun to, like, work again for people who are not in the laptop class.
01:27:46.480And even for people in the laptop class, like, actually, your life could be a lot more fulfilling and enriching.
01:27:57.620Probably for at least half the people in that class, you would find a much more meaningful life doing something with your hands than with your laptop.
01:28:07.660And the, like, making all of those things, like, possible and, like, feeling, you know, it's like if people from America from 100 years ago saw this country, yes, they would be disturbed by various, you know, areas of, like, squalor and, like, decay.
01:28:27.140But the country would just seem kind of dead to them, except for these little, except for, like, lower Manhattan, right, you know, and, you know, things that look like lower Manhattan with people that are, like, lower Manhattan people.
01:28:39.900And, you know, the feeling of, like, most, I mean, a couple summers ago.
01:28:44.060I'm not sure that people from 100 years ago would be dazzled by lower Manhattanites, but go ahead.
01:28:48.460No, they'd be, they'd be, like, they'd find it acceptable.
01:28:50.940Like, you know, they'd accept, no, well, they'd find that they were dressed very badly.
01:29:17.740But, yeah, I mean, you know, sure, they would see that, they would see things that disturb them.
01:29:21.860But, like, just the level of, like, watching, like, video footage from the future and being, like, oh, my God, it's dead.
01:29:29.020Like, imagine, like, the citizens of, like, Birmingham, Alabama, you know, in 1923, seeing Birmingham, Alabama in 2023.
01:29:37.540They would just be, like, alien invasion.
01:29:40.340Like, you know, I mean, and so the thing is that, you know, what total victory looks like is just sort of a tremendous sense of, like, civilizational rebirth in which everyone's kind of excited to participate.
01:30:00.940And that feeling of rebirth is what you should have if you, if you have anything that's sort of like a regime change and it doesn't have that feeling of, like, joyous rebirth, then you're probably doing something wrong.
01:30:14.540So, Sage, here for five euros, I think.
01:30:17.920Why did you settle in the elves, hobbits analogy?
01:30:22.160What happened to the Armager's Yeoman and Lazari?
01:30:26.620Yeah, the book is, I mean, I, like, you know, the book is coming out with Passage Press.
01:30:34.640I'm recently, you know, my personal life has been somewhat in turmoil, but I'm going to release a, you know, the, I have, I sort of, I posted a bunch of drafts of a version and then I'm like, this isn't quite right.
01:30:48.360And I have a first chapter that will, of a new thing that will come out soon.
01:30:52.800As for the analogies, like, you know, you know, if I can say the same thing in a way that's more mass market accessible, but I'm still saying the same thing, like, I will.
01:31:11.320And, you know, so the sense of, like, basically, you know, I think my earlier work had sort of more of a sense of, like, creating an alternate universe and I, like, sort of focus a little more these days on, like, converging that alternate universe with, like, the real version, the real universe that we live in.
01:31:35.280Yeah, we don't get a lot of patchwork anymore.
01:31:43.960The answer is definitely I would have been a Bonapartist in 1810 if I was, if I was French.
01:31:49.700And, you know, the feeling of, like, actually Napoleon, the feeling of Napoleonic France is, like, in some ways the most accessible kind of feeling of, like, national transformation you can imagine.
01:32:06.280Unfortunately, it's associated with this, like, world war, which was not good and which Napoleon eventually lost.
01:32:12.480But still, basically, Napoleon's, like, reinvention of France is, like, so, for example, you know, one of the things Napoleon finds, Napoleon's basically a startup guy.
01:32:24.460And one of the things he finds when he looks at France is that the legal system is a complete shitshow.
01:32:30.580You know, one of the things that you may find if you look at America, have you ever been involved in a legal matter, is that the legal system is a complete shitshow.
01:32:37.580And, you know, the idea of basically taking this thing and, like, redesigning it, rebuilding it from scratch seems just, like, as impossible to us as the idea of, like, rebuilding Microsoft Windows from scratch.
01:32:50.500And basically, Napoleon rewrote the operating system of France.
01:32:54.260And France, to this day, despite many, much water that has flowed under the bridge, is still kind of basically running on the Napoleonic operating system.
01:33:02.380And that's sort of what makes it, other than Japan, I would say, France is still one of the least American countries in the Western world.
01:34:10.300And the Pharisees are, I think, historically actually quite similar to the blue state elites we have to deal with now.
01:34:23.800Not that my Bible history is all that great.
01:34:26.380You know, at the same time, you know, of course, one never steps in the same river twice.
01:34:33.520You know, the, like, I don't know what the organizing principle of the next regime will be.
01:34:45.520I think, you know, Christ has done fine for a couple thousand years.
01:34:51.400It's like, I tend to feel that we're simply in a very impious and very ironic age.
01:35:00.860And so, you know, the sort of, like, there's a way, you know, which makes it a sort of satanic age.
01:35:11.820And the question of how that satanic character of the age, because, like it or not, politics is the art of the possible.
01:35:22.580And sort of the art of kind of converting the satanic character into something that looks like the kingdom of heaven
01:35:34.540is the sort of jiu-jitsu feat that maybe, you know, involves using the forces and methods of the day for something that has got to, again, look a little bit like the kingdom of heaven.
01:35:55.380Right, you know, and that's a delicate, like, feat of martial arts.
01:36:03.120And, like, once again, there's a sort of, like, you know, in the kingdom of Satan can, like, men be seduced by Christ, you know, and how does Christ accomplish that?
01:36:18.240These are questions that I don't understand.
01:36:20.800But, like, I definitely, to say that the, like, theological echoes of the modern problem are not real is, like, you know, no, you can really, you can't.
01:36:34.980Even a person, even a completely atheistic, secular person with a completely, like, blue state background like mine
01:36:45.180can sort of parse this conflict and see the way in which it can really be seen in a deep and non-frivolous way as the contest of Satan and Christ.
01:37:03.460Credentialism was supposed to lead to real-world jobs, which no longer is the case outside of STEM and is number one burden of debt on Gen Y.
01:37:13.300Could drastic public school job internship programs help deal an effective blow to academia?
01:37:21.400Yeah, you have a serious problem there, which is, you know, elite overproduction.
01:37:25.800And so, you know, when you basically lead people on paths out of the system, your question is often, like, okay, but, like, where are they going?
01:37:35.480Right, and the thing is that there aren't really super-duper clear answers to that.
01:37:43.520It's true, for example, that we have, like, a rather large shortage of basically skilled blue-collar work in this country, and shortages lead to, like, high pay.
01:37:56.040And, you know, it's a fact that it's getting pretty expensive to call the plumber.
01:38:01.580And, you know, does that lead me to, like, want my son to be a plumber?
01:38:09.720Like, I'm thinking probably not really.
01:38:12.560And so, you know, the sense of, like, you know, I'm sort of, this is why it feels sort of more promising in some ways to, like, infiltrate these systems, you know, as, like, depressing as it is to work inside them.
01:38:33.600And you're not really, like, infiltrating them sort of in this, like, conspiracy sense.
01:38:38.320You're just sort of, like, spreading, like, you know, one of the things that I like to say is that every regime can resign.
01:38:46.520Every regime can sort of grow tired of life.
01:38:49.100You know, there's no monarchy that has, like, a provision for abdicating in it.
01:38:53.580But it somehow turns out that any king can abdicate.
01:38:56.040And so, you know, when I'm basically, like, you know, what is the path for someone who is, like, based to, like, exist in this world, you know, I want to, my answer to the question winds up always being, like, just, like, hide your power level and just follow the track that works for you.
01:39:20.540I don't know that, like, pulling people aside from that is a way that, like, actually works.
01:39:32.900Well, I was going to say, do you feel like the breaking the stranglehold of academic credentialism is an essential part of kind of shifting things?
01:39:44.660I mean, the thing is, you have, you know, there are two kinds of credentials.
01:39:47.380There are credentials that, like, mean something and credentials that don't.
01:39:51.420And so, you know, to the extent that you can basically produce, you know, credentials in the tech world that mean something without the involvement of academia.
01:40:03.320Of course, these are, like, you know, kind of, these are high status rather than low status jobs.
01:40:08.180It's not quite the same as being a plumber.
01:40:14.000And, like, and the, like, but ultimately, it's, like, when you try to, when you try to kind of take energy away from these systems, like, you have to, you know, it's like people say, well, you know, Harvard is just a hedge fund, you know, now, right?
01:40:40.360It's like, basically, people are still going to go to Harvard to get English lit in sociology degrees, let alone, like, computer science degrees.
01:40:50.040You're still, you know, these institutions being dominant institutions are still going to attract amazing people, however much they screw up the admissions, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
01:41:01.760And so, it's basically what these private sector things are doing if you look at, like, say, Lambda School, like, you know, would I rather have hire someone who had an undergraduate degree in computer science from Harvard or a graduate of, like, the sort of Lambda School boot camp?
01:41:24.360Well, and I'd rather hire the Harvard grad.
01:41:27.600Conversely, if I had the opportunity to go to either of those things when I was a kid, I'd still rather go to Harvard.
01:41:33.860You know, so breaking that is, like, breaking that is really hard.
01:41:39.100Moreover, if you're breaking it as a business, your business tends to operate around, like, the middle of the curve because it needs volume.
01:41:46.860And it doesn't really operate at, like, the peak.
01:41:49.680And, like, the peak is if I want to compete with Harvard, I need a collection of, like, computer scientists that are, like, more amazing than the average, like, Harvard professor.
01:41:59.020And, you know, that's a sort of different, you know, which can be done, right?
01:42:04.340It's a very different thing from Lambda School.
01:42:05.980And so, yeah, you know, those things, when those things come out as, like, businesses, they turn out to, like, not be the path to, like, actually competing with Harvard.
01:42:24.880Sure, but, I mean, if Harvard and Yale and stuff, you know, they turn down enough qualified, you know, really bright, like, white and Asian kids because they just don't check enough boxes.
01:42:35.600They weren't really willing to change their pronouns to kind of make that happen.
01:42:39.560Then eventually, no matter how much prestige they're handing out, like, there's a problem, right?
01:42:44.040Yeah, there's, you know, if they're doing that, well, there's not really a problem.
01:42:48.760It's just that there's, like, free energy for some opposing system to collect.
01:42:57.520You still have to basically get donors to throw, you know, tens or hundreds of millions of dollars at something that is not going to produce a return, even as a return on power for decades.
01:43:08.360And, you know, part of the problem that the right has is, like, it's just full of this, like, easy gratification kind of thinking.
01:43:19.300And so the idea of, frankly, a right wing activist saying to donors, hey, you know, you need to, like, invest money deeply for the long term, long term, rather than basically saying, how am I going to throw $20,000 at this and get a $20,000, you know, sugar rush when you're worth $20 billion?
01:43:42.060No, like, that's not, you're just, like, not serious.
01:43:46.660You're not, you know, you're playing too small ball.
01:43:50.680And just, like, all over the right, even despite the, like, escalations and, like, levels of ball playing, you know, the, like, the, the everybody's playing sort of small, quick ball rather than, you know, really trying to win the game.
01:44:08.180It is shockingly difficult to get people who are theoretically right wing to make serious long term investments and in victory.
01:44:41.720Evan Schultz, I appreciate your, your super chat, sir, but unfortunately we have to stay monetized on YouTube, so we won't be going through those.
01:45:32.860I was at a, you know, a hopping party in New York two or three months ago, and these two people come up to me on the floor.
01:45:40.220And it is literally Hakan and Mena together.
01:45:43.120And I'm like, oh, my God, like, I'm, you know, I feel like I've been visited by like Thomas Jefferson and George Washington together.
01:45:49.940And then we talk for like five minutes and then the party ends and then I direct them to the wrong after party.
01:45:56.040Like, you know, so, so I think that, you know, frog Twitter is actually a pretty good meritocracy and the people who have strong reputations there really are, have like depth and strength.
01:46:10.640But like, you have to consider the fallen, right?
01:46:13.900You know, and like the greats are not just the greats that are publishing currently.
01:46:18.500And so when I find that people are, have never heard of like Hakan, you know, who was the first, for example, to inform us that women only like camping because it reminds them of being abducted by an enemy tribe is, is like, you know, yeah, there's, there's, there's old kids.
01:46:36.680Kids don't even know the classics anymore.
01:46:38.240Kids don't even know the classics anymore.
01:46:56.160So passage, passage press is putting out, um, a, uh, a book of old unqualified reservations classics, uh, which, uh, you know, actually I haven't read this stuff since it was published.
01:47:07.260So, you know, but I'm, I'm told it's good.
01:47:09.340And then, uh, you know, my sub stack gray mirror is, uh, among other things, uh, drafting, you know, my book to be called a gray mirror.
01:47:18.020And that's gray mirror.substack.com gray with an a, the American way, check it out, read it, subscribe to it.