The Auron MacIntyre Show - Did Christ's Resurrection Seal Away the Old Gods？｜ Guests： Andrew Isker and Alex Petkas ｜ 6⧸23⧸25

00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, how's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon. I've got a great stream with some great guests that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:21.940 Before we get started, let me tell you about the Share the Arrows conference. You've heard us talk about this, and it's for a good reason.

00:00:28.200 Share the Arrows is one of the most powerful women's events happening this year, and it's hosted by Blaze TV's own Alliebeth Stuckey. 0.70

00:00:35.600 It's happening October 11th in Dallas, Texas. If there's a woman in your life that's been craving real encouragement and biblical truth, your wife, your daughter, your sister, this event is for her.

00:00:46.900 It's a full day of worship, teaching, and powerful conversations.

00:00:50.160 We all know how loud the culture can get, and this is a chance to push pause, lean into truth, and get re-centered in purpose.

00:00:57.500 Send someone you love or go yourself. Tickets and details are available at sharethearrows.com, and yes, the VIP options are still available.

00:01:07.320 All right, guys, so I have been re-reading Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan. It's actually one of the first major political works I read in college.

00:01:15.700 I did my first, like, big research paper on this, but it's been 20-plus years at this point since I actually read it, and a lot has changed since then, so I wanted to revisit it.

00:01:26.000 One of the things that struck me about it was during the text, Hobbes just, out of nowhere, mentions that Christ obviously, with his resurrection, ended the old gods.

00:01:40.140 He sealed them away. They no longer can speak to us or influence us anymore, and I found that interesting because he dropped it very casually, as if this is just a fact that, of course, everybody knows.

00:01:49.900 And, you know, I was familiar with it. It's actually something of a fascination with my wife.

00:01:54.500 She's read a couple different kind of accounts of this, and she's really fascinated by this concept, so it's always something that's been in conversation with us about, you know, kind of what has happened in the spiritual realm since Christ's victory.

00:02:07.520 And so I thought it would be really interesting to talk about this because, honestly, this is something that I eventually learned about, but I never heard about in church growing up, and I think the majority of modern Christians are probably not super familiar with this idea of both history and theology.

00:02:22.740 And so today I've got a great opportunity because I've got two returning guests, one a historian. Alex Petkus is here from the Cost of Glory podcast, and then I have Andrew Isker, obviously pastor, and he has his own podcast over with CJ Engel. Thank you both for coming on.

00:02:43.120 Yeah, thank you for having us.

00:02:44.040 Absolutely. So, like I said, I wanted to hit this from both angles because I think what's really interesting about this is that it's something that shows up in the historical record in multiple places from multiple sources who I don't think are particularly motivated to tell the story that it tells.

00:03:00.540 And that's always a good sign of historical veracity when you have people who would rather not admit something talking about it along with those who are celebrating.

00:03:09.260 It gives us a cross-section of people who observe the event.

00:03:12.040 And then, obviously, it also has deep theological implications, which I thought would be very good to have Andrew on since he's more familiar with that aspect.

00:03:20.420 So, let's start from the historical to set the frame. Alex, can you give us a little bit of an idea of where this comes from?

00:03:28.440 Who is talking about this event of the old gods being sealed away, no longer being able to contact them?

00:03:34.180 Where is this recorded in history?

00:03:36.420 Well, one of the most famous instances of this is the Emperor Julian that we discussed on an earlier episode.

00:03:43.740 And he, so the story goes, was interested in reviving the Oracle of Delphi because it had fallen on bad times.

00:03:53.920 He was, you know, the famous apostate emperor, a generation or so after Constantine in 361.

00:04:01.040 And he wanted to revive the old gods.

00:04:03.100 And so he's rebuilding temples all around the empire.

00:04:05.100 And he sends a friend of his, Oribasius, this doctor, you know, vizier sort of figure, to go, you know, inquire, how can we rebuild the temple?

00:04:15.560 And he gets this oracle back that says, go and tell the emperor the ornate hall has fallen.

00:04:23.360 No longer does Phoebus Apollo have his chamber, nor prophetic laurel, nor prophetic spring.

00:04:28.580 And the speaking water has been silenced.

00:04:30.620 And this is an interesting event.

00:04:35.020 There's some interesting multiple interpretations of this.

00:04:37.520 But essentially, it's seen as kind of the last oracle of Delphi being offered.

00:04:43.300 And yet, this was the end of a long process that you can see in earlier sources.

00:04:51.120 One of the earliest sources that we have for an actual decline in oracles and in prophecies is Plutarch, who was a first century AD philosopher, biographer, very dear to my heart, who wrote a treatise on the decline of oracles.

00:05:11.520 He wrote several treatises on the shrine of Apollo at Delphi.

00:05:17.320 He was, you know, from the neighborhood.

00:05:19.060 He ended up later in life becoming a priest there.

00:05:21.180 So he's, you know, very knowledgeable about the goings on at the oracle of Delphi.

00:05:26.020 And he, you know, asked this question.

00:05:27.760 Why is it that?

00:05:29.480 Well, for one thing, the oracle seems to be not speaking in the way that it used to speak.

00:05:35.360 So if you read Herodotus or a lot of the earlier ancient historians, the typical process was when you consult the oracle at Delphi, which is in central Greece, about this or that issue, you get in response, usually a verse of hexameters, which is the epic meter that you use by Homer and Hesiod and this very ancient dialect.

00:05:59.980 And what probably happened is, you know, as a petitioner, you go and consult the Pythia, the prophetess, and maybe they let you watch as she sits on this tripod and, you know, kind of mutters something interesting but incoherent in this trance-like state, possibly brought on by ethylene gas emitting from the cracks.

00:06:23.060 This is interesting theories about this.

00:06:24.380 And then the priests are there, and they kind of, you know, listen and go consult among themselves, and I'm sure that rituals are offered, but they come back to the petitioner with this hexameter.

00:06:37.500 They kind of process it into something slightly more rational, but usually also ambiguous, that is supposed to guide your action.

00:06:45.720 And Plutarch says, well, now the prophet or the oracle doesn't speak in hexameters anymore.

00:06:53.780 It's just, you know, normal language.

00:06:55.880 What happened?

00:06:57.120 And he says, well, kind of tying in with this broader theme that you see in Plutarch of the decline of the oracle of Delphi and of other oracles, you know, the prophet or the oracle doesn't have the same kind of

00:07:14.500 needs that he's serving today because in the archaic and classical periods, the oracle of Delphi was this very important, not just a religious shrine, but a political shrine.

00:07:26.520 You know, city-states would come.

00:07:28.900 They would send ambassadors.

00:07:30.800 You know, should we go to war?

00:07:32.080 Should we try to topple this tyrant?

00:07:34.300 Should I slaughter all of my enemies?

00:07:36.260 Et cetera.

00:07:36.760 And then the oracle would give something, you know, action guiding.

00:07:41.320 And part of the way that this worked, if you're, you know, a cynical rationalist, is the oracle of Delphi, the priests there get embassies from all over the Greek world.

00:07:50.580 They have the pulse on everything that's going on, the broader political spectrum.

00:07:53.960 And they're kind of able to actually offer some real concrete third party neutral advice.

00:07:59.100 But in Plutarch's day, the oracle is, you know, in the Roman Empire, the Greeks are, you know, they have some modest liberty and within their city-states, but they're basically subjects of Rome.

00:08:14.560 And, you know, you have the Pax Romana, it's peaceful, great, we can build wealth and stuff, but there's not the same kind of political stakes operative in the Greek world.

00:08:24.980 And so the oracle doesn't have the same kind of charge over human affairs.

00:08:31.240 And so now mostly people are going there and asking, you know, should I get married to XYZ?

00:08:37.000 Should I travel?

00:08:38.060 Should I lend money to this guy?

00:08:40.360 And it's all kind of tedious.

00:08:41.580 And Plutarch says, well, that's why, in point of fact, there are fewer priestesses operative. 0.98

00:08:47.980 There's, they went from three in the glory days down to one, and they managed to get all the work done.

00:08:55.520 It used to take three priestesses to see all the petitioners, and now it's only one. 0.98

00:09:00.140 So it's not that the oracle was totally silent at that point, but it clearly declined in political significance.

00:09:06.120 And so Plutarch is an important source, but beginning with the second, third centuries, and especially the fourth century, you start to have debates among Christians and pagans.

00:09:18.420 You know, as Christians are becoming more prominent, some of the pagan intellectuals are saying, this stuff is nonsense, and we've got to do something.

00:09:27.320 And one of the sources of evidence that they use, actually, is the veracity of oracles that prove that the pagan gods are still operative in the world.

00:09:37.800 And a lot of the Christian church fathers push back, and they cite other pagan sources that talk about how the oracles are declining.

00:09:48.280 And there are various prophecies that they cite where somebody will petition, say, the oracle at Delphi or Klaros or Didyma.

00:09:55.600 I mean, there's many of these, and some of them have already been shut down by this point, like the famous oracle at Dodona in central Greece.

00:10:02.280 It's just not operative anymore.

00:10:04.980 And, you know, a lot of people are getting back oracles saying, sorry, the god doesn't have anything to say.

00:10:10.440 Maybe you should just offer a sacrifice and kind of pious contrition and hope that things will change someday.

00:10:17.400 I mean, you get the sense that these priests are sort of starting to see a decline in their finances because people are consulting the oracles less.

00:10:24.080 One of the explanations that some scholars have offered that's very interesting on this is you get the rise just kind of organically within paganism in the second and third centuries of astrology and various forms of, you know, magic, divination, you know, becoming a medium.

00:10:44.160 You can, you know, if you perform certain rituals, a philosopher will, you know, be able to offer you some kind of, you know, rubric where you can just sit in your triclinium and consult the gods on your own, kind of become your own oracle.

00:10:59.520 And, you know, clearly this would take from the market share of an important oracle like Delphi, especially if it's just, you know, what god should I sacrifice to to make the crops grow this year?

00:11:11.220 Kind of petty, as it were, personal private matters.

00:11:15.960 And so the Christian apologists are able to draw on this tradition.

00:11:18.480 They also are reading Plutarch.

00:11:21.400 Eusebius quotes from Plutarch's Decline of Oracle's Treatise extensively.

00:11:27.600 And one of Plutarch's theories that Eusebius quotes is the idea that maybe, Plutarch himself says this, maybe the god Apollo kind of can't be bothered with these, you know, petty private affairs.

00:11:44.320 And he sends a subordinates, subaltern, you know, emissary in the form of daimones, you know, lesser spirits, the daimones, as the actual producers of these prophecies. 0.95

00:11:59.720 Like it's like a lesser divinity because, you know, Plutarch is already in this sort of early Neoplatonic world of seeing the gods as sort of above material concerns, which is a new thing compared with the classical period.

00:12:12.360 And so Eusebius takes this and says, well, actually, the oracles are, just like Plutarch says, demons.

00:12:22.420 Because daimon has this very different resonance in the context of the Christian tradition and, you know, starting with the Septuagint, the demons are bad, right?

00:12:32.560 For the pagans, the daimon is, you know, just like a hero, maybe, or a demigod, a lesser divinity. 0.92

00:12:40.740 So that's one way to take it.

00:12:42.280 Or you can take it the way that Athanasius takes it on the incarnation.

00:12:46.760 He talks about, let me see if I can pull up the quote here.

00:12:49.620 He says, whereas formerly every place was full of deceit of the oracles and the oracles of Delphi and Dodona and the Boeotia and Lycia and Libya and Egypt, et cetera, et cetera,

00:12:59.620 that they were held in high repute in men's imagination.

00:13:03.220 Now, since Christ has begun to be preached everywhere, their madness has also ceased, and there is none among them to divine anymore. 0.51

00:13:11.420 So I think he's, you know, on the one hand, these things, these archaeology does tell us that these centers are still, you know, somewhat operative, at least as economic and political centers.

00:13:23.080 I mean, there's still like, you know, settlements and cities around these temples.

00:13:26.960 But there's also a lot of evidence that people are not consulting them anymore, and sometimes they're consulting them and not getting any answers.

00:13:34.880 And so the Christians really pounce on this until at the very latest you get, you know, the last oracle of Delphi or, you know, Theodosius in 391, 0.94

00:13:44.960 the emperor, the great Orthodox emperor, Theodosius, puts a stop to all pagan ritual and sacrifices. 0.51

00:13:53.660 And so he sort of outlaws the going to of temples for the sake of, you know, consulting the divinities.

00:14:00.860 So it is a very real, well-documented phenomenon.

00:14:03.060 There's a lot of, and one could say more about kind of internal pagan skepticism of oracles and jugglery, as Hobbes talks about.

00:14:13.340 And Hobbes is, you know, very funny when he talks about the way that pagans divinize things like snakes and onions and such.

00:14:22.680 But he's actually drawing on this tradition kind of within paganism of saying, you know, these guys are mostly just charlatans, aren't they?

00:14:30.140 So it's kind of a complicated story.

00:14:32.780 We could talk about the reasons further on.

00:14:34.560 No, absolutely.

00:14:36.500 I think it's fascinating as well that it, you know, of course, we will go into more depth on this.

00:14:42.440 But from, you know, that beginning there, it does sound that like, yes, we see from multiple sources, you know, that the great God Pan is dead and the oracles are no longer speaking the way they used to.

00:14:53.960 But it's not exactly slamming the door shut.

00:14:56.580 It seems to be more of a process that is occurring, you know, notably right after Christ's death and resurrection, but continues along a progression of a few hundred years before we hear what might be complete silence.

00:15:11.540 And we can speculate on this a little bit, but, you know, my understanding at least is that, you know, while this veil is much more closed than it ever was, this is the reason that many people, well, not many people, but the people who do interact with these spirits today basically do so through occult practices.

00:15:29.740 Because it's a more difficult, I guess you have to go a little harder in the paint.

00:15:34.100 You have to commit yourself to something more evil, I think, and unfortunately for the people who decide that they want to go down that path.

00:15:40.640 And so perhaps the veil is never completely sealed, but it becomes much, much more difficult.

00:15:46.160 But those are just my speculations.

00:15:48.360 Andrew, we have multiple sources.

00:15:50.900 We've got, you know, historians.

00:15:52.600 We've got Roman emperors.

00:15:54.240 We've got the day-to-day lives of those who used to worship these gods.

00:15:57.840 We've got, you know, early church fathers.

00:16:01.060 What are some of the theological implications?

00:16:03.380 I know that not all of this is just in the Bible 100%, but, you know, many different traditions have a howering,

00:16:10.640 of hell-type understanding of what happened with Christ.

00:16:14.180 How does this apply to the theological realm?

00:16:17.740 Oh, quite a bit, actually.

00:16:20.940 Yeah, I guess this is a long, it'll be a long answer for you, Oren.

00:16:26.960 That's okay.

00:16:27.580 You just got 15 minutes.

00:16:28.800 Yeah, that's right.

00:16:29.720 We got the history.

00:16:30.420 Now we get the theology.

00:16:31.700 Yeah, I'll try to keep it to 15 minutes then.

00:16:33.700 But, yeah, I think, I mean, just to start with, I mean, growing up in the church, you know, I grew up in, you know, barely normal, regular evangelicalism.

00:16:47.980 And, you know, you would read in the Bible or you'd read in Sunday school about, like, ancient Israel and how, right, all throughout the Old Testament,

00:16:58.340 they are tempted by worshiping the foreign gods, the gods of the Canaanites, Baal and Ashtoreth and all of them. 0.57

00:17:08.060 And, you know, I think it was just a very materialistic, you know, sort of impulse that's just present everywhere that it was always read in such a way where it's like, that's really stupid because everybody knows those are fake.

00:17:25.600 Yeah, everybody knows that's not real.

00:17:26.980 So why would you worship just, you know, idols of stone and metal and things like this?

00:17:32.720 And it wasn't until much later, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, reading, reading things like Hobbes or early church fathers and things like that, that I was like, wait a minute, what if, what if all those were real, right?

00:17:49.280 What if Israelites were burning their children to Molech because they saw their neighbors doing it and then, yeah, they sacrificed their baby and their firstborn and then they get 10 more kids and all their crops grow really well. 0.91

00:18:03.240 And everybody else not doing that isn't doing quite as well, right?

00:18:06.640 You could see the incentive, right?

00:18:08.760 Just the bare material incentive that would exist if those things were real, right?

00:18:16.220 Why someone would be tempted or an entire nation would be tempted to do such things.

00:18:21.960 And it's like, well, then it really like changes your whole perspective on the Old Testament where it isn't just like, oh, they're doing this stupid, stupid, silly, superstitious thing that everyone knows is fake.

00:18:32.860 Like, they're actually doing a real thing that, that is very evil and, and you have to, you know, maintain the faith and hold the faith strong in order to resist those temptations.

00:18:46.700 Then it, then it becomes very, very different, those stories.

00:18:48.980 And, and, and just, you know, biblically, like you see, you see all sorts of stuff.

00:18:53.880 You see, you know, a material, you know, modern, you know, materialistic Christian might read, you know, the Old Testament law, right?

00:19:05.780 The law of Moses and see, you know, that witchcraft is punished by death.

00:19:10.100 Divination is punished by death.

00:19:12.460 Things like, you know, idolatry are, are faced to death.

00:19:15.400 And you think, well, that's really extreme for just, for just something that is silly superstition, like going to a palm reader or something.

00:19:22.700 Right.

00:19:23.460 But it's like, well, wait, what if it's real?

00:19:25.560 And it's a real thing.

00:19:26.820 Then it, then it, then you can see why it merits such severe punishment in the Old Testament.

00:19:32.260 And, and then you also see things like, like Moses in, in Egypt doing, doing miracles and Pharaoh's magicians and priests, right, are able to replicate the first few of them themselves.

00:19:44.860 Or you look at, you know, like the, the Magi in, in the gospels and they're able to, they're able to discern something from the heavens to be able to know, okay, Jesus is being born.

00:20:00.620 And we need to go over here, right?

00:20:01.840 These guys are astrologers that are able to read the sky in some, some way that people can't anymore.

00:20:09.220 And, or in, in the book of Acts where a girl who's possessed by a demon is being used to do fortune telling, much like Alex describing the orca of Delphi.

00:20:21.680 And it's like, whoa, like the Bible's treating this stuff as real.

00:20:25.260 It's not, it's not like modern people do where it's like, oh, it's just hokey, silly, superstitious stuff.

00:20:30.280 Like, no, it's very, very, very real, much less all like the, the man possessed by, it was actually our lectionary reading on Sunday, the man possessed by demons.

00:20:38.900 And it's like, he has so many, he's not in his right mind.

00:20:44.080 He's living out in the tombs and, and, and stoning himself.

00:20:48.440 And Jesus cast them out and the people make him leave.

00:20:52.280 I mean, this is actually, right.

00:20:53.620 That's something that, you know, Rene Girard points out as like the, the reason for that is they needed, they needed that guy to be demon possessed for their whole society to function.

00:21:04.940 Um, and, and, and yeah, Girard makes a lot of hay with, with, uh, those points.

00:21:10.300 Uh, and so, yeah, once you realize that the world is not, not just mere matter and stuff, uh, that it is, that there, there are things behind it, that they're very real things, or, or at least there, there were, um, then, then so much of the Bible makes a whole lot more sense.

00:21:27.900 Um, but from a larger, you know, theological, you know, almost metanarrative, um, I mean, the way of, the way of looking at, at, at all of these things is that, okay, you have, you have the fall where Adam, uh, prior to the fall is, is created as, as a son, right.

00:21:47.640 Inheriting the entire world and ruling over the entire world, giving, giving, has been given rule of, of the creation.

00:21:54.720 Uh, but he falls and he's no longer, he's no longer in that position to rule.

00:22:00.220 And so someone, someone else does rule.

00:22:03.120 And, and, uh, and you begin to see some of these things, especially like if you take, um, you know, the, the Septuagint translation of Deuteronomy 32, that, that all the nations are divided at Babel and each of them is given their own God, right.

00:22:19.680 Lowercase g God, uh, then, then the ancient world, the old Testament world makes even more sense, right.

00:22:26.960 That they have, they have all their own particular gods that, that rule over them.

00:22:31.900 Uh, and it makes like the book of Daniel make a whole lot of sense as well.

00:22:35.900 Right.

00:22:36.380 Where, um, where the archangel Michael is like, yeah, I had to stop.

00:22:41.100 I could, I had to, I had to take a break.

00:22:43.860 Uh, I couldn't get to you right away, Daniel, because I was busy fighting the Prince of Persia.

00:22:49.080 And, uh, and it's like, Oh, I wonder what that is.

00:22:52.260 Like, it's not, it's not a human being that he's fighting.

00:22:54.900 He's fighting the, um, this principality, this, this power that rules over Persia.

00:23:00.320 Uh, and you, you see that in, in Paul's, uh, Paul's epistle to the Ephesians, uh, to the church at Ephesus, that he says like explicitly, right.

00:23:10.520 You're, you're not doing battle against flesh and blood.

00:23:12.540 You're doing battle against principalities and powers and, and, uh, the spiritual forces of darkness in, in the heavenly places that, that there are, there are things far beyond what we can see.

00:23:24.940 The GMC employee pricing event is on now.

00:23:28.960 Get a big cash purchase discount of up to $12,300 on the 2025 GMC Sierra 1500 and the 2025 Sierra HD.

00:23:38.280 With Sierra 1500's premium interior and advanced tech or Sierra HD's impressive power and capability, you'll have everything you need to get from work to play with confidence this season.

00:23:49.400 Hurry in.

00:23:50.140 Employee pricing is on for a limited time.

00:23:52.140 Visit your local GMC dealer for details.

00:23:55.320 And they exist in the real, um, and so right within, within Christian theology, like the, the fact that, that Christ comes, takes on flesh, uh, dies on the cross and is raised again.

00:24:08.480 And then, um, he ascends to heaven to rule, right.

00:24:13.280 That is the, that's the thing, especially like modern American Christianity is very, very much downplayed, right.

00:24:19.380 We don't have many categories to think through the ascension and what it, what it actually means.

00:24:23.820 Uh, but he is, uh, a man, right.

00:24:27.320 The God, man, a hundred percent God and a hundred percent man is reigning from heaven at God's right hand over everything over.

00:24:35.440 He's taking the, the throne that, that Adam lost at the fall.

00:24:40.960 And he has, uh, like he, like he says in the gospels, he's bound the strong man and plundered his goods, right.

00:24:48.320 He's bound Satan and taking everything away from him.

00:24:51.860 I mean, I think there's another clue there as well.

00:24:55.080 Um, you know, in, in the, in Matthew's gospel, um, in, in the temptation in the wilderness where Satan is offering him these temptations.

00:25:05.940 Right. And, and the last one is I'll give you all the nations and all of their glory, right.

00:25:10.600 If you, if you would just bow down and worship me.

00:25:14.060 And yeah, oftentimes I would hear that explained like, well, Satan is a liar.

00:25:17.800 He's lying about stuff.

00:25:18.960 Like he doesn't actually possess all the nations and all their glory.

00:25:22.300 And, and that never really held much water for me because it wouldn't be much of a temptation if it was fake.

00:25:29.800 Right. If it wasn't real.

00:25:30.880 Right. It's a real temptation that Jesus was facing, uh, that he wouldn't have to go through all of this or, or the other thing that people will say is, well, he doesn't really want it.

00:25:40.620 Right. My kingdom is not of this world.

00:25:42.520 I don't really want it.

00:25:43.240 It's not, it's not, I don't want it.

00:25:44.900 It's like, well, that's not a temptation either.

00:25:46.300 If it's not a thing that he wants.

00:25:47.880 Right.

00:25:48.280 And so if you take what Satan tempts Jesus with in, in the wilderness, uh, as real, as something he actually possesses and as something Jesus wants, then, and you can see why you want it.

00:26:02.340 Like you look at all the Psalms, like Psalm, Psalm two, asking me, right.

00:26:07.200 Uh, uh, the father is saying to the son in that Psalm, uh, ask of me and I'll give the nations to you as an inheritance.

00:26:13.220 It's like, ah, it seems like he really wants it.

00:26:16.200 Uh, so, uh, he wants it.

00:26:18.260 Satan is offering it and it's, and he resists the temptation by saying, no, I'm not going to just accept it from you.

00:26:23.820 I'm going to take it from you.

00:26:25.120 Right.

00:26:25.520 I'm going to, I'm going to die and be raised again and, and ascend to heaven to rule, um, which is precisely what he did.

00:26:32.720 And, and then, especially like, if you get into, or you get into the book of revelation, which is always precarious because, you know, there are,

00:26:43.220 all sorts of different ways, uh, to read the book of revelation that many people do.

00:26:47.060 Uh, it's, uh, currently probably a very, uh, contentious, uh, political issue right now at this exact moment, as we saw with, you know, Tucker and Ted Cruz, uh, last week.

00:26:57.420 Uh, but, uh, in the book of revelation, right.

00:27:01.700 You see in chapter five, right.

00:27:04.260 You see the, um, the Ascension from, from the perspective of heaven, right.

00:27:08.860 That the lamb, uh, comes and takes the throne and, um, all of the, you know, the ancient ones surrounding the throne, the 24 ancient ones and all of the angels, right.

00:27:20.740 What do they do?

00:27:22.160 They, they take off their crowns and set them at his feet.

00:27:26.440 Right.

00:27:27.440 And so if you think about like the, the spiritual theological symbolic meaning of what that is, is, right.

00:27:34.760 You have this, this interregnum almost, um, from Adam to Christ, where the rulers of the world were, were, um, you know, the, the, uh, the smaller, you know, lowercase g gods, uh, or the, you know, created being the angels and demons, right.

00:27:55.180 All of the, all of the spiritual beings are ruling over the world and he ascends to heaven and they take off their crowns and, and give them to him.

00:28:03.640 Now, now all of that power belongs to him.

00:28:06.400 Uh, and it isn't just like the heavenly ones.

00:28:08.460 It's, it's all of them, right.

00:28:09.800 All of their power belongs to Jesus. 0.78

00:28:12.760 And, and you see that transition from, from the heavenly host ruling the creation to, to humanity in Christ, in Jesus and in, in his, in his church and his people.

00:28:25.600 Um, and you also see this later in revelation where, uh, the, the instruments, right.

00:28:32.440 The instruments of spiritual warfare that the heavenly host has, um, are, are their instruments that they're singing with, uh, in, in heaven.

00:28:40.660 But, uh, the, the transition takes place where the saints now pick up the heavenly instruments.

00:28:47.260 I think it's in chapter 17, uh, where they, they take up the heavenly instruments.

00:28:51.060 They, they're replacing, right.

00:28:52.960 The angels.

00:28:53.660 Right.

00:28:53.840 So people always, you know, people always accuse me of like, you believe in replacement theology.

00:28:58.420 And I'm like, yes, I do.

00:28:59.720 Right.

00:28:59.980 Humans, human beings replace angels. 0.89

00:29:02.120 Uh, that's who I believe, uh, that's, that's the great replacement that's taking place in, in the Bible.

00:29:07.140 Uh, that, uh, that, that, um, the, the powers of, of, of the heavenly host, both the ones faithful to God and the ones in rebellion against him, um, are replaced.

00:29:19.820 They're replaced by the church and they're replaced, uh, by Christ himself.

00:29:24.120 Um, and so, uh, yeah, you, you, you see this, uh, and, and it, it makes, it's, it's particularly important, especially with a lot of the things that, that, that Alex just said, um, to look at like the book of Daniel and what's taking place there.

00:29:38.800 And you have, especially like within dispensationalism, you have people reading the book of Daniel as though it's describing, you know, today things taking place today.

00:29:46.700 But what it's actually describing is, is that period, um, of what's often called the intertestamental period, those hundreds of years between the end of the old Testament and the beginning of the gospels, where you have a Babylon take over, then, then Persia, then Greece, then Rome.

00:30:04.200 And, and, and you see that this is, this is part of God's plan to build, uh, what's called in the New Testament, the Oikimene, right?

00:30:12.060 The, the known world, um, right?

00:30:14.840 This Greco-Roman world, right? 0.98

00:30:16.440 This, this huge empire, um, that it begins to be consolidated.

00:30:21.800 And in Nebuchadnezzar's vision that Daniel describes, right?

00:30:26.800 The thing that, that finally replaces it is this stone that grows into a mountain, um, which is the kingdom of Christ.

00:30:34.660 And, and so, right, if all of these great world empires are, you know, backstopped by, by demons, right?

00:30:43.600 Um, like you see in sort of glimpses in, with, um, the vignette about the Prince of Persia fighting Archangel Michael, uh, ultimately the thing that replaces them and is handed over, uh, to, uh, handed over is, is, um, is to the church, is to the kingdom, kingdom of God.

00:31:03.660 Yeah. And so, uh, that's like it, within this period, like that, that is the thing that is, is taking place that, that God is raising these, these peoples up.

00:31:12.680 Right. And it makes it like, when you have this understanding of, of what's actually going on, it makes, it actually makes reading about Alexander and it makes reading Herodotus and it makes reading all of, all of the ancient histories, uh, take on a completely new life.

00:31:28.320 Uh, because it's like, well, actually God is the one orchestrating all of this to hand over that world to his son.

00:31:35.840 Um, and, and, and then, right. So you can extrapolate from that, um, all, all of the conquests of over, over paganism by, by the church, by the gospel, uh, to, to the rest of the world, beyond the Okimene, right?

00:31:51.060 The barbarian world, right? The world of, of my ancestors, uh, in, in Northern Europe, uh, because like Norse paganism kept going on for another maybe thousand years, but it too was, was conquered.

00:32:04.680 Um, and it's, I mean, it's fascinating reading, you know, reading the stories about, um, about the wars between the Danes and the Anglo-Saxons in England.

00:32:15.680 I mean, they completely conquered England except for, except for Wessex and, and yet they were defeated ultimately.

00:32:23.800 And, and so many of the, the Danes converted to Christianity. It's, it's wild stuff. And it's like, well, why did they? And it was the same kind of thing. It was, uh, their gods started going silent.

00:32:37.300 They, they wouldn't, they wouldn't speak anymore. And, and the only conclusion they can have is that the, the Christian God is more powerful.

00:32:44.460 Um, and I mean, yeah, even, I'm, I'm glad that like, uh, yeah, that Alex brought up Julian the apostate, uh, because it's also fascinating too, that, uh, one of the things that Julian did in his, you know, program to try to, you know, try to return, um, is he really wanted to spite the Christians by rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem. 0.80

00:33:07.040 And so he gave a whole bunch of money, uh, to, to the Jews and the empire to return to, uh, return to Judea, rebuild the temple. 0.69

00:33:16.180 And like, you can go on Wikipedia of all places and read about, about the, uh, attempted reconstruction of the temple in, in the fourth century.

00:33:25.660 And like day one of construction, they get all the materials together. They spend all the, you know, spend all the money to, to get it ready, uh, get it planned.

00:33:33.460 And like day one, the earth opens up and swallows everything up and, and fire comes from heaven and destroys all of it.

00:33:41.380 And it's like, and these are pagan sources.

00:33:44.980 Alex and I actually already did a episode on this, like a full episode on it. It's amazing. But yeah, you're the fact that this is reflected again, once again, in pagan sources, uh, you know, across all of this is really fascinating.

00:33:57.700 And the world you're describing is one that I think is itself, you know, a lot of people in, uh, kind of the online, right. We'll talk about the need to re-enchant the world, right.

00:34:07.540 Like to re-understand it in a way like this. And I think that is increasingly important because when we look, you know, the funny thing about Hobbes is while he is making this casual reference, most of Hobbes is him kind of trying to say, well, angels and demons, these are just kind of delusions.

00:34:23.760 You know, these are ultimately not, uh, direct forces. They're not material. It's kind of, kind of demystifying the Christian. And this is of course the, one of the first steps down the enlightenment path of, okay, the world is just this clockwork mechanism. 0.93

00:34:36.320 And if God does exist, he just kind of made it and walked away and it kind of runs by itself.

00:34:41.640 But when you look in these ancient sources, like when you, when you look at a work like the ancient city by Kalanj, he talks specifically about how each God is particular to those nations, how important it was for them to be personal in particular and how they bound the nations together.

00:34:57.380 And if you could go in and trick the God of one city state into, you know, taking your sacrifice, then that would open them up to attack. And these are not minor things. These are not just like stories that they told. These are very real and important beliefs and that, that were held and understood.

00:35:12.960 And it really jives with this idea that there are these spiritual entities that these nations have been given over to until they were defeated by, by God's instruments.

00:35:23.540 And, you know, I always think of CS Lewis's out of the silent planet, right?

00:35:27.580 And you, you think about that book and he says, you know, the, the humans go to all these planets and the natives there seem so simple and they're so backwards and we can control them because ultimately, and they don't realize that all of those people look at them with a sadness because actually their ruling angel, Lucifer fell. 0.72

00:35:46.740 And so your planet is silent. All the other planets get to communicate with God. All the other peoples get to sing with God.

00:35:53.540 But you're silent because your guardian spirit fell and is now corrupted you.

00:35:58.440 And this is why everyone looks at you with pity because you don't really understand what it means to be communing with God in a very real way.

00:36:06.040 And so I just find that fascinating because, you know, we, we see this concept echoed in non-Christian thinkers as well.

00:36:12.800 You look at someone like, like Spangler talking about metaphysical, you know, animating spirits of different civilizations.

00:36:20.720 There, there, everything about this isn't necessarily always Christian, but it's recognized across many different disciplines.

00:36:27.000 And so I just think it's hitting on something really critical that we've lost in the modern day.

00:36:31.420 But the more we look at events around us, I think it becomes more and more obvious that the spiritual warfare in my mind is ramping back up.

00:36:39.560 Not, not, not toning back down.

00:36:40.900 Yeah.

00:36:41.540 Yeah.

00:36:41.920 You know, to, to go on one of these points with, with regards to Hobbes, you know, he's a rationalist.

00:36:50.180 He's maybe Epicurean sympathetic.

00:36:52.360 It's important to note that this option was available very much to ancient thinkers.

00:36:57.920 And, uh, there's a philosopher Oinimaeus of Gadara that Eusebius quotes at length.

00:37:04.840 And this guy wrote a treatise, um, like, uh, you know, go a tone for, uh, the, the exposure of the charlatans.

00:37:12.940 And so he goes around to all these oracles and, uh, he goes, I think he, it's, it's the Oracle of Apollo that he goes to where he, he asks the priest, okay, I bought some land.

00:37:23.400 I'm trying to figure out what, what I should plant in the land.

00:37:26.140 And, and the priest comes back with this Oracle, like, oh, in the, in the fields of Hercules, the, the, the flowers bloom and the plants are rich and the rains ever, ever fall.

00:37:37.600 And it's kind of like ambiguous and vague, but maybe encouraging if you're, if you're a man of faith.

00:37:43.500 And then Oinimaeus says, well, this, this was encouraging at first until I started asking around other people were there.

00:37:49.400 And, oh, it turns out Callisthenes got exactly the same Oracle.

00:37:53.320 And, you know, upon further research, he discovers that dozens of people got this exact same Oracle.

00:37:58.840 And it, it seems like, as he tells the story, the priests kind of have this, you know, uh, fishbowl of various.

00:38:05.580 Yeah.

00:38:05.940 My fortune cookie came out the same.

00:38:07.380 Yeah, exactly.

00:38:09.220 And so, you know, so he's saying, well, this is all nonsense.

00:38:12.180 These are charlatans, uh, you know, that the, the gods may exist, but, uh, they don't really do this sort of thing.

00:38:20.600 That's not the line that a, a lot of the pagans took, uh, about the, the, the decline of Oracle's.

00:38:27.840 And it's certainly not the line that the Christians took, you know, Eusebius, like we said earlier, certainly thinks that there are spiritual forces operative at these, at these sites.

00:38:36.740 They're just bad.

00:38:37.640 And I think Athanasius would take the same.

00:38:39.660 And it's the, the, the fact that they're falling silent is not some kind of, uh, you know, historical process of purely at least of, you know, you know, declining Greco-Roman liberty and political independence.

00:38:51.000 There's, there's like a lot more going on there, um, despite the, what the, what the demystifiers would tell you.

00:38:57.380 Um, and I think this kind of connects to, you can kind of have it both ways actually, because there is on the one hand, this very lively ancient economy.

00:39:08.620 I'd say a modern economy too, of kind of charlatanry and, you know, um, I don't know, getting people to go on ayahuasca trips and, you know, my, my ayahuasca startup and stuff like that.

00:39:23.340 There is a kind of economic force driving this and, you know, the, the, the crystal sellers on Etsy and that kind of thing has an economic dimension to it.

00:39:33.760 Kind of kind of grift to it, but that could be precisely the very effective tool that malign spiritual forces use to kind of draw you in.

00:39:45.020 There's all these people out there who have a stake in persuading you to experiment and contact the dead and they can make some money on it.

00:39:53.360 And that might make you think that it's fake.

00:39:55.500 That's what Hobbes would say, right?

00:39:57.200 In that passage, he's talking about how, um, religious authority kind of becomes less credible when it, when it's seen to be upholding the personal interests of the, the religious authority itself.

00:40:09.500 Of course, this has to do with this critique of the Catholic church, but it could also be both and, you know, overdetermined that there are spiritual forces that kind of use that as a hook to draw you in and, uh, send you down the slippery slope.

00:40:21.200 So, Andrew, um, looking at all these different sources and the, the, the, the possibility of ability of this, you know, uh, process that has started with the death and resurrection of Christ, but continues on, as you point out, even in, you know, a century later with some of these other pagan peoples that are being contacted.

00:40:44.120 What do you think? Uh, and, and again, this might just be speculation, you know, if, if, if, if it's not something that you want to go into, or if you're, it's something that, you know, you feel is, uh, you know, on some level of speculation, just feel free to make that clear.

00:40:58.100 But, uh, do you think ultimately that whatever spirits be they, the old gods, demons, you know, whatever was being contacted previously through these religious rituals, do you think they have been removed from contact with this plane?

00:41:13.400 Do you, do you have the inclination that I have that they're still contactable through, through evil, buried evil rituals that require more, you know, uh, effort?

00:41:22.320 I think by some, do you think that they could come back? Is there, is there any indication, uh, that any of these things might be something we still interact with on a regular basis?

00:41:31.460 Yeah, that's, that's a good question. It's a question I get a lot. It's one I've thought about a lot as well. Um, no, I, I think that, that it isn't, it isn't so much that like, okay,

00:41:43.240 now they're, they're completely gone. They're eradicated. They are totally defeated forever and, and sealed away.

00:41:51.080 But, uh, I do think that their, their power is greatly attenuated, uh, by, by the victory of Christ that, um, I mean, if you take,

00:42:01.600 if you take my, my perspective on, on the book of revelation, that, that, you know, Satan is power sealed, right.

00:42:10.400 That we're living in, in that period, um, after the Ascension. And, uh, but, uh, within that, um, right. They, they're still, there still is something there.

00:42:22.320 Right. Even, even though they are not, um, they don't have the power to, to dominate entire civilizations any longer.

00:42:31.120 Um, uh, and, and, and you see it as it's played out in history, right. First, first in the Greco Roman empire, then, then throughout all of Europe, you have, you have Christendom, you have the, the destruction of the power of the old gods everywhere, everywhere that, that Christianity went. Um, and I mean, you even look at, at things like, I mean,

00:42:53.240 it's interesting to me, uh, in college, I had to, I had to read, uh, you know, uh, African history. Uh, there isn't, you know, obviously a whole lot of, of sub-Saharan African history, but we read, I had to take this class for my degree.

00:43:09.240 And, and one of the things that had us read was, uh, was Chinua Achebe's, um, uh, things fall apart. Maybe you had to read that too, uh, when, when you were in school and, and Achebe is a Christian.

00:43:23.240 And he's describing the period of Christianity coming to Nigeria, I believe. And, and one of the, one of the things he describes is like when the missionaries came, uh, the, the people there are like, oh yeah, you can, you can set up your church or your hospital or school or whatever over there.

00:43:40.580 And that part over there, not telling them, well, that's, that place is haunted. That's full of evil spirits. And it's going to, they're going to be cursed and, and, um, tormented.

00:43:50.320 And what happened when he described is not only were they not cursed and tormented by, by the demons that resided there, the, uh, all of the magic of the witch doctors in the village just ceased, just stopped.

00:44:07.300 Right. They'd, they'd roll the chicken bones or whatever, and to do divination. And, and it was like taking the magic eight ball and saying, ask again later every single time. And it's like, that's interesting. Uh, that's fascinating. Or even, even if you think about, uh, the Spanish conquistadors, uh, like Cortez, uh, conquering the Aztecs.

00:44:28.120 Right. And, and how miraculous that was. Right. Um, how the, you know, this tiny little band of Spanish conquistadors that don't have massive technological superiority over, over the Aztecs. Yeah. They have horses and cannons, but it's not like they had.

00:44:45.120 Yeah. Yeah. M249 saws and, and, uh, no attack helicopters spring. Yeah. It's not like when you play civilization on easy mode and you're like two ages ahead of all the other civilizations and you're, you know, using stealth bombers against, uh, you know, against, uh, swordsmen or something. Uh, and, uh, and so anyway, uh, they, they, they completely overturned the, the Aztec empire.

00:45:10.120 Like overnight. Right. It's, it's really this miraculous story. And it's like, well, what caused that? Why did that happen? And you think about the Aztecs and what their civilization was and how it was dominated by these just disgusting gods that sacrificed, I don't know, hundreds of thousands or millions of people, you know, building entire, uh, pyramids of skulls, things like that. And then boom, they're gone. They're done. And, and like all of their own prophecies had said, like,

00:45:39.940 this is going to happen is fascinating stuff, man. And so, um, you, you think, you think about those things or even, I mean, even the conquest of the Americas, it's very similar. Um, that, that, um, as, as Europeans came, as European Christians came, uh, that all, all of the power, uh, all of the, the witchcraft and, and things like that just stopped working.

00:46:05.140 It doesn't work anymore. Um, but even, so I say all that, but even, even as like Christendom came in, in Europe, there still was an undercurrent of folk religion and occult practices and witchcraft and things like that.

00:46:19.180 That was very real. Um, we, uh, we often look at like the Salem witch trials and the things that happened there as, as like, Oh, all of these superstitious people just started to burn women for no reason.

00:46:29.900 And it's like, no, like weird stuff really did happen. That was testified by multiple people. And that has no rational explanation whatsoever. And, uh, and it's like, yeah, like the Americas was a, was a very dark place, very evil place that, that Christianity, uh, helped to, um, mostly eradicate. 0.82

00:46:52.520 Um, but is the question though, is like, can these things come back? I think it's, you know, I think it's ultimately a spiritual battle and, and the fact that some of these things appear to be coming back shows, it shows the weakness, uh, of the church.

00:47:10.680 And it shows, um, the decline of, of Christianity as a public religion, um, that, that it's, uh, yeah, that the fact that it's coming back, I think is, it points to that, that we are, you know, rapidly de-Christianizing and, and it is funny that, that like the new atheism that existed in like the early two thousands.

00:47:35.320 Like, like, like when we were in college, um, like that's not really a thing anymore. I mean, the, the fedora Shrek meme really killed it. Uh, but, uh, but, uh, well, and the fact that like the, the, the, the guys who pushed it are now opining about waiting. Oh, what happened to my Christianity? Yeah.

00:47:53.600 Being like, Oh, I got rid of Christ. And all of a sudden, you know, these Muslims control every building and they're just talking about civilization. What happened? Yeah. 1.00

00:48:01.100 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Uh, yeah. And, and, and some of it too is like, it just created a vacuum, uh, that is filled by something. Right. And so, uh, all of these people, right. That profess to be atheist or agnostics or whatever. Now they're, yeah, now they're like, I mean, like Aaron Rogers, for example, I think is like kind of the poster child for this, like grows up in an evangelical Christian home.

00:48:24.000 Then becomes, uh, this kind of like neckbeard atheist. Um, and, uh, and, and, but then from there it progresses to like Ayahuasca trips and, and sweat lodges and things like that. Right. Like, yeah. Like demons filled that vacuum. Like that's what happened. And, and that's like, he's a microposm of, of all of these things. Um, and so, right. Why, why, why is it happening? Well, it's, it's because Christianity has lost its teeth.

00:48:54.000 Right. It's, it's no longer, um, operates as a very potent spiritual force in our society. It's really just this kind of self-help thing for many people. Um, it's not a real powerful, um, actual religion, right. Where you are communicating with God, where God is, is, uh, bestowing his grace upon you and in, in very tangible, real ways. Right. We don't, we don't view it that way anymore because, uh, I think, uh,

00:49:23.360 we've been given over to the same enlightenment thinking, uh, created by men like Bobs.

00:49:28.740 Yeah. Well, you know, uh, it, it is interesting, you know, you point out here that in a lot of ways, perhaps it's not immediately just the death or resurrection of Christ, but it is when, you know, when God decides to move a civilization towards Christianity, when the Christians arrive and it's, it's time to, uh, uh, you know, be witness to the magic shuts down. Right. 0.78

00:49:50.460 That all of a sudden the, the, the power is stolen. Uh, but you know, if it's, if that vacuum is created again, then that evil can rush back.

00:49:59.520 And it's very interesting because I obviously talk a lot about people doing political theory, doing very pretty radical out there, uh, understandings of political philosophy.

00:50:08.860 And a lot of these guys are talking about hyper agents, uh, you know, and hyper agents is a fancy word for demons.

00:50:16.280 That's right.

00:50:17.080 It's right.

00:50:17.700 It's what rationalists want to call demons because all these people who don't have a word for spiritual warfare are looking at what's happening around them.

00:50:25.980 And the, there are, there are entities that are not human that seem to be reassembling themselves before our eyes.

00:50:33.700 We're, we're starting to watch powers that we cannot totally grasp and understand who are very different on our own start to mobilize people in different directions.

00:50:43.240 Uh, and that's one of those things that I, you know, again, people who are totally unconnected to religious traditions are trying to describe to me.

00:50:51.140 And I'm like, yeah, I feel like I'm doing the Michael J. Fox.

00:50:53.820 I mean, like I've seen this one before.

00:50:55.020 Like, I know, I know what this is, you know, this is, I know something you don't know here.

00:50:59.380 And so, uh, you know, I know some people out there just tuning out.

00:51:02.680 They're like, okay, these guys are nuts or whatever, but I don't care.

00:51:05.420 Like, sorry, I've seen around these corners and this is, this is very real.

00:51:09.440 I've talked to people who completely have no idea about Christianity, completely are disconnected from theological traditions and are still recognizing exactly this pattern.

00:51:18.700 Very serious, very learned people repeatedly coming to this conclusion.

00:51:23.340 And so, uh, Alex, I know we've, we've kind of been deep into the spiritual side on this, but I don't know if you have anything that you, you want to, uh, kind of bring up in reference to this process of, uh, you know, the possibility of these different powers or these different forces returning in different areas.

00:51:38.180 Well, there's certainly, you know, this story about Africa that, uh, Andrew was talking about, it's, it's the kind of thing occurs a lot in the early saints lives.

00:51:47.080 Um, and in fact, in, I think it's in Ammianus, the emperor Julian has this, uh, half brother Gallus, who was a Christian kind of nuts, but you know, he was a Christian and he, uh, transferred the relics of the martyr Babelus.

00:52:03.180 Babelus to right in the neighborhood of the temple of Apollo at Daphne, which is an Antioch and it silenced the Oracle and Julian, you know, took this seriously enough that when he got there to Antioch, as Gallus had died by this point, he took the remains of Babelus and moved them way far away again.

00:52:27.960 And then, and hit, I think he hid them or something, but you know, it actually worked, you know, there's all these instances of, you know, planting a church near a pagan, um, Oracle or, you know, burying some martyrs remains near, near a pagan Oracle.

00:52:42.720 And it kind of, you know, the, the pagan priests are like, what the hell is going on? 0.99

00:52:46.080 And they find who did it.

00:52:46.980 Maybe it's a saying that they, you know, execute him, things like that recur all over the place.

00:52:52.420 And, you know, it can't just be all a trope.

00:52:55.300 Um, but there's a really interesting story about Julian, um, this specific Oracle that we were talking about that I'm not sure how to make sense of it, but one interpretation of the prophecy, uh, that was given to Julian by Apollo.

00:53:10.180 And there's some debate might, it might've been Apollo at Daphne actually, but either way, um, one way of reading the prophecy, if you change the punctuation, it goes from being, uh, no longer does Phoebus have his chamber, nor prophetic laurel, nor prophetic spring.

00:53:25.300 And the speaking water has been silenced to something like, um, Phoebus no longer has his chamber, but he has not fallen silent with regard to the prophetic laurel or the prophetic spring and speaking water.

00:53:37.460 So there's a kind of a grammatical ambiguity that essentially if on the second interpretation, the Oracle is kind of positive, like, yes, okay.

00:53:47.860 The roof fell in, but Hey, Apollo is still there, Julian.

00:53:51.320 So if you, if you want to repair his temple, he's going to come back and the Oracle is going to be restored.

00:53:56.820 And, um, this is a, uh, a modern scholarly conjecture, but if that's right, then, um, essentially what happened is the story you could tell is the, the, the Oracle is doing the same thing that it's always done, which is deliver these ambiguous kind of tragic prophecies.

00:54:16.600 Like famously the Oracle delivered, uh, to, to Croesus, uh, of Lydia, when he was thinking about invading Persia, you will topple a great empire.

00:54:26.920 If you invade Persia and certainly no modern residences today. 0.97

00:54:30.380 Um, uh, and of course the empire that he toppled was his own empire when Cyrus, uh, you know, retaliated and toppled Lydia and captured Lydia.

00:54:40.080 Um, so, so this could be, you know, if you wanted to go on this line, this is like the, the kind of this, this, the forces of good co-opting the, the, the Oracle of, of Apollo to kind of drive Julian deeper into his tragic blindness and misinterpretation.

00:55:01.220 Oh, I got a good sign from the God.

00:55:03.260 He's probably on my side.

00:55:04.440 I can go march into Persia as he does. 1.00

00:55:07.020 And then he dies famously on a Persian campaign again, no modern resonances at all.

00:55:13.180 Um, but, um, but actually the, the prophecy was saying the Oracle is dead and it's not, this is not true anymore.

00:55:21.700 I, it's, it's just like such a fascinating, strange, ambiguous episode.

00:55:25.600 So I think these forces are still, still at work in the world today for sure.

00:55:30.020 And, you know, it's like CS Lewis said, the devil's greatest trick is to make you think that he doesn't exist.

00:55:34.600 Right.

00:55:35.920 Absolutely.

00:55:36.440 And guys, I know there are big world events happening today.

00:55:39.220 I know this is the only podcast that's not talking about them right now.

00:55:43.000 Everyone else is monitoring the situation.

00:55:44.980 Yeah.

00:55:45.180 Well, yeah.

00:55:45.560 Well, so two, two reasons for this one, obviously just, we scheduled this previously because you know, the world ended up right after I asked you guys to do this.

00:55:52.780 But also, you know, um, you know, this is not a breaking news podcast.

00:55:56.940 There's a lot of people who do that and you know, they, they, you know, obviously it's a huge niche and there's, there's, there's big audiences there.

00:56:03.900 But right now I've got a very large stream count.

00:56:07.140 You know, this is one of the larger streams I've done in quite a while watching this.

00:56:10.900 I think people, you know, we, we can sit there and wring our hands about what's going on, but we don't know everything that's happening.

00:56:16.840 And it's a lot of knee jerk.

00:56:18.100 Look, I have the same impulse as everybody else.

00:56:20.160 I'm concerned, but ultimately, you know, we're, we're not sure how this is all going to shake out.

00:56:24.620 And I could sit here and speculate and throw out a lot of useless stuff.

00:56:27.400 That's going to be wrong in two minutes, or we could talk about eternal and powerful things.

00:56:32.380 And then when the dust settles and we have a better idea of what's going on, we can delve into the geopolitical issues and their implications.

00:56:38.200 So I, and honestly, like we're talking about here, and as Alex just pointed out, there are plenty of parallels inside this story that apply to our current situation.

00:56:47.220 We don't have to run out there and look for the breaking news in order to kind of better understand our world.

00:56:52.840 In fact, in some ways, understanding these foundations and these eternal truths are just as, if not more important than the current relevant facts for grasping what's happening.

00:57:01.980 But before we go to the questions of the people, Andrew, I want to ask you this.

00:57:07.100 One problem, and I feel this a lot, not to insult our beloved boomers, but, you know, I did the episode on boomer eschatology and I've made this point before, but I want your take on it.

00:57:18.540 I think one of the big problems we have, especially as Christians and especially as American Christians, is because American Christian, you know, Christianity has been so central to America.

00:57:29.380 It's been so powerful. America has been so deeply blessed and has not really like we've faced difficulties, but compared to other nations, we're isolated.

00:57:38.640 We're not being invaded all the time. No one's coming to massacre us here. Let's be real.

00:57:43.060 You know, we're, we're, we're financially powerful. We have a world spanning empire.

00:57:46.200 And so it's been very easy to take the Christian story of God wins in the end, right? Christ wins in the end, which is of course true. 0.99

00:57:54.500 And I believe, and I affirm, but it's been easy to take that story and graft it into the United States that United States and Christianity are one thing.

00:58:02.680 And like, of course the United States will always be Christian and the, and the, and the victory of America will be the victory of Christianity and America can't lose because Christianity doesn't lose. 0.83

00:58:11.920 And I think this creates a hubris in the American spirit, but also it creates a, a lax understanding for Christians of their duty because they look around and say, well, God's going to win at the end. 0.65

00:58:27.220 And so, uh, you know, maybe I play with the Ouija board. Maybe it doesn't matter if, you know, uh, my kid ends up, you know, practicing a little witchcraft, maybe, maybe, you know, if the, the spiritual forces around me that are attacking, they're, they're all probably just, you know, bonk.

00:58:41.860 They're all, that's, that's a bunch of nonsense from the old days. And we rationally arrived at this Christian understanding. And so we got that locked down and now just Christ wins. And I never have to worry about that again. 0.97

00:58:52.220 What do you think about the complacency that I think is sometimes bred by what I believe is a true fact that of course, eventually Christ will conquer all, but at this moment, we still have a duty to be mindful of the spiritual forces around us. And the fact that that battle is ongoing.

00:59:07.640 No, I, I think you're absolutely right that, uh, there is a tremendous amount of complacency, right? It, it, I mean, there's, there's so many factors involved. I mean, some of it is, yeah, just, um, uh, being born on third base and thinking you hit a triple, uh, that, that, you know, the, the peace and order and stability that we enjoy is really like all we've ever known.

00:59:34.920 And so you just assume that's the baseline. Um, I think part of it also is, is the, the impact that the enlightenment has had on all of us and all of our thinking that, um, a lot of us like functionally are deists, right? Even though we, we don't profess to be at all, uh, our day-to-day lives are very deistic where it's like, yeah, God just winded up the clock and he's not really involved at all.

01:00:02.820 Um, and so part of the, the effort, you know, yeah, when people, and I, I actually hate like using, uh, the language of enchanting the world, things like that, even though I maybe said that in my book, uh, but I don't, I, I, I, I've grown to not really like it so much, uh, because it, uh, it, it takes on a certain flavor, uh, that, that sometimes is very silly.

01:00:28.400 But, um, but the reality is like the people that, that are beginning to look at the world in a, in a different way and, and, and paying attention to metaphysics and, and thinking about the world, that, that, that it is more than just matter and stuff.

01:00:46.100 That, that there are things, uh, far beyond what we can, what we can know and see.

01:00:50.920 I mean, so much of it too, is like, you have a massive amount of the population that is suffering from various degrees of mental illness, right?

01:01:03.420 Um, whether it's anxiety or depression or things, you know, even more severe than that.

01:01:08.820 And, uh, coupled with that, uh, a tremendous amount of drug use, right?

01:01:13.340 Whether it's, you know, uh, just, you know, marijuana or whatever, or, or, or many other things, uh, that like that stuff, like pharmakia, man, like that is, uh, it is not just like ayahuasca, you know, uh, going, going to the shaman in, in, in Belize or something.

01:01:30.800 But it's, it's like, like, like drug use is a real thing.

01:01:34.320 Like it's, it's like pharmakia, uh, that is talked about in the new Testament.

01:01:38.700 Like you are, you're opening yourself up to who knows what, um, and, and rather than looking at it in materialistic terms, like, oh, well, different chemicals are affecting your brain, uh, and altering your mind.

01:01:51.780 It's like, well, yeah, on the material side, yes.

01:01:54.800 But like what, what's happening in the spiritual side with, with these things, like, um, all of these things.

01:02:00.540 Um, I, I think have, have caused many people to begin looking at the world differently, uh, begin looking at it, uh, from, uh, a non-enlightenment perspective.

01:02:12.060 And there definitely is a need and a demand for answers.

01:02:16.920 And, and it's one thing that, that I think the majority, or at least the mainstream of the, of at least American evangelicalism is very reticent to, to give, right.

01:02:28.660 They don't want to get into sort of speculative theological things, even though, even though all the stuff that I've said, isn't like, it isn't really on the skinny branches of speculative theology.

01:02:39.600 It's like right there in the, in the new Testament, right there in the, in the old Testament.

01:02:43.740 Like it's, it's, it's right there for you to see if you're just willing to take off, you know, your enlightenment goggles for one second.

01:02:51.260 And, and, and so, yeah, I think, I think the big part of it is right.

01:02:57.160 If you, you, you begin understanding that, all right, the, the things that I'm doing, the life that I'm living, the, the, the day-to-day Christian piety that I pursue, that, that my family pursues, worshiping on the Lord's day, all of that is, isn't just like, oh, this is good stuff to do because God wants us to do it.

01:03:15.060 But it's also going on the offensive, right?

01:03:18.040 It's also, I mean, it's, it's like, it's, it's like the story of Achebe's, of the missionaries going to Africa and going on the offensive against their gods.

01:03:29.440 Like that's what's happening.

01:03:30.480 And you have no idea what, what the effect is of, of faithful living and faithful worship and how, how it silences these old gods that then in many ways are, are coming back to haunt our world.

01:03:46.320 And, and, and I just look at it from like the broad, broad, like geopolitical side of things as well, right?

01:03:53.680 It's just so interesting to me that it's, there's this like demonic screeching at the idea of Christians who want Christianity to be a very public religion and to have, you know, political and societal impact, right?

01:04:10.180 That's like the only thing they freak out about more than anything else is like, we can't have that anything, anything but that.

01:04:16.200 And it's like, oh, that's interesting.

01:04:17.620 Why is that?

01:04:18.900 Right.

01:04:19.300 Well, it's, it's probably because you worship demons, right?

01:04:22.160 That's, that's why.

01:04:23.820 So, yeah, I think, I think there, just as there are big, massive geopolitical things happening right now in the world that, that we're living in, right?

01:04:34.260 There's stuff beyond that, that we can't see that just by, you know, to, to throw a bone to the, the, the sweet old boomer folks that were just, you know, living a faithful Christian life for, you know, 60, 70 years, right?

01:04:49.940 Them, them, them praying and worshiping and, and following Jesus, right?

01:04:55.600 Had this massive impact on the world that they can't even see or know, or, and maybe are not willing to recognize.

01:05:01.240 I just wanted to jump on that, the way you put that beautiful, Andrew, and like the, speaking of people that were born on third base and thought they hit a home run.

01:05:15.740 And, you know, the ancient Israelites, for example, did that and God sent plagues and chastised them and he, you know, burned their temple down and sent them off to, to, to Babylon. 0.89

01:05:25.240 And I, I've just read, uh, recently Ernst Junger's On the Marble Cliffs and if you want a kind of depiction of what that might look like when you, when a society thinks it's fine and kind of allows itself to slip and lose faith and the encroachment of terror and chaos and tyranny and lesser divinities, hostile divinities, kind of creeps in and sweeps through a land.

01:05:55.240 And it's, uh, a chilling depiction of that.

01:05:58.000 I really enjoyed it.

01:05:58.560 It's a quick read, less than 150 pages.

01:06:01.380 So, um, and of course, you're Ernst Junger, you know, writing in the thirties, of course, but he eventually becomes a Catholic, uh, seriously.

01:06:10.020 And these things, these things really have material historical consequences when you, when you lose faith, even if you're unsure about whether it's God's chastisement, which I think is very reasonable to think.

01:06:22.780 You know, they, just because you have a Christian nation that might actually hold you up even more intensely to, um, the punishment of God. 1.00

01:06:32.320 If you turn away, uh, the, the ensuing chaos that comes from the collapse of an incredibly ordered system is much, much worse than, you know, just typical village destruction.

01:06:45.840 I mean, it's, it's just catastrophic.

01:06:48.080 So I think that it starts with just upholding the dignity of these things in your own personal life.

01:06:53.760 First and foremost, that's, that's something that we all can do at least.

01:06:58.000 Great.

01:06:58.380 Another excellent book that I have to add to my incredibly tall stack that I might get through.

01:07:03.040 If, if God is kind enough to me, I keep trying to write a book about this.

01:07:06.180 And every time I get a chapter or two done, I'm like, Oh no, now I have to read an entire, another book to understand the next chapter I'm going to write.

01:07:12.680 All right, guys.

01:07:13.560 Well, I appreciate both of you coming on.

01:07:15.220 I think this has been a fascinating discussion.

01:07:17.520 Uh, I, I'm really happy that we were able to pull this off and that both of you were able to make it.

01:07:21.720 Andrew, obviously working, working from the, uh, you know, uh, uh, from the hotel room.

01:07:25.880 So he's dedicated to his craft.

01:07:27.140 Uh, but before we go, or at least before we start taking questions from the people, Alex, can you tell people where to find your great work?

01:07:34.680 Yes.

01:07:35.200 Cost of glory on all the podcast players, including YouTube.

01:07:38.360 Um, if you go to costofglory.com, that's my website.

01:07:41.220 It's got links to stuff.

01:07:43.620 Excellent.

01:07:44.240 And then at cost of glory on Twitter, I should say too, or on X.

01:07:47.700 Yeah.

01:07:50.020 Uh, yeah, for me, uh, just, uh, at Boniface option on, on X.com.

01:07:56.820 And, uh, uh, the podcast is, uh, Contra Mundum, uh, with CJ Engel.

01:08:02.240 Uh, and that's, yeah, YouTube, uh, Spotify, Apple, wherever, wherever people get podcasts.

01:08:08.880 Excellent.

01:08:09.400 All right.

01:08:09.700 Let's look at the question of the people and both of you guys just jump in or not as you feel.

01:08:15.040 Uh, Simplar says, oh, wow.

01:08:17.180 My favorite topic.

01:08:18.280 Well, thank you very much for coming by, sir.

01:08:19.940 It looks like you've got a few questions about it.

01:08:22.040 Uh, he says, you fine gentlemen might enjoy the sibling oracles.

01:08:25.480 It's a collection of lore and prophecies from, uh, monarch era Rome, supposedly from Troy.

01:08:31.640 The Christians preserve the verses that most aligned with the Bible.

01:08:37.360 Yeah.

01:08:38.180 This was a really popular text in late antiquity and, uh, I can't, I'm, I'm rusty on the actual

01:08:43.820 late antique reception of this, but you know, the, the fourth eclog of Virgil was, was another

01:08:49.040 one of these texts that was written, you know, 30 or 40 AD, I'm sorry, BC and mentions the,

01:08:57.100 the birth of a, of a new, you know, chosen ruler, King, you know, historians think this

01:09:03.920 is the, a child of Augustus or, uh, uh, like a nephew of Augustus Marcellus, but the Christian

01:09:11.620 church fathers saw this as well.

01:09:13.120 Obviously he's talking about Christ.

01:09:14.800 It's like right around the corner.

01:09:16.480 So there, there's all kinds of prophecies that maybe it's not all demons or maybe the

01:09:24.480 way that the church fathers were thinking about it, but there, that there is room for seeing,

01:09:29.380 let's say angels speaking through these, these prophecies in a way that, you know, in a way

01:09:34.860 that some of the church fathers talk about, like, even though the, um, the, like the Babylonians

01:09:40.680 conquering Israel, God is going to punish the Babylonians anyway, but there's still instruments 1.00

01:09:46.380 of God, you know, working in the world.

01:09:48.180 So there's, there's, there's ways of thinking about this that are, um, that are kind of coherent

01:09:52.980 and holistic, but, uh, yeah.

01:09:54.840 Or it's like the, uh, the pagan philosopher that Paul quotes and, and also, you know, references,

01:10:01.560 um, the trine in Athens to the unknown God and like the backstory behind that, right?

01:10:07.080 Where it's, it's someone who said, okay, offer a sacrifice according to this way.

01:10:11.760 And it was, it was offered in the exact same way as like a Levitical sacrifice and the law

01:10:17.400 of Moses and the plague that had been afflicting Athens was lifted.

01:10:21.720 Uh, and it's like, that's interesting.

01:10:25.000 Like, where did that come from?

01:10:26.120 How did he know to do that?

01:10:28.280 Right.

01:10:28.840 Uh, there's all sorts of weird stuff like that.

01:10:31.080 Um, and so it, yeah, uh, and Paul's referencing it.

01:10:36.180 So it's, you know, somewhere between neutral to good.

01:10:42.480 Templar says also Enoch and Jubilee, uh, give lifespan of false gods at 300 to 500 years.

01:10:48.700 So once, uh, they were cut off and sealed from sacrifices in this world, they started dying.

01:10:54.060 That's why oracles gradually faded over 300 years.

01:10:57.500 Wow.

01:10:59.540 That's fascinating.

01:11:00.620 I did.

01:11:00.960 I've never heard that.

01:11:02.720 Yeah.

01:11:02.960 Right.

01:11:03.320 Me neither.

01:11:03.820 Yeah.

01:11:05.340 Hey, it's possible.

01:11:06.240 I don't know.

01:11:06.740 Yeah.

01:11:07.260 Yeah.

01:11:07.500 Well, and, and the, uh, the Olympian gods of the Greeks, um, around, you know, their,

01:11:13.500 their heydays in the fifth century BC.

01:11:15.540 And by, by the time you get to the Roman empire, they're kind of on the out as far as actual objects

01:11:21.460 of faith.

01:11:22.020 I mean, they're still there in the poets and in the shrines, but, but people are starting getting

01:11:25.800 interested in Mithras and Sibylle and, you know, the cabroids, a lot of weird stuff starts

01:11:32.160 happening right around that four to 500 year mark, um, from the, the, the classical 12

01:11:38.840 gods of Greece.

01:11:39.600 So I'm gonna have to chew on that.

01:11:42.960 Philosophical thirst worm says the Jesuit figures, uh, case that the Taoists anticipated the Christ

01:11:50.660 via shim and had a conceptualization of the Trinity is interesting.

01:11:56.980 We're going to get all of the most, uh, esoteric references.

01:12:00.740 Yeah, it is.

01:12:02.460 I'm glad to know that we have that kind of autistic horsepower in the chat.

01:12:05.520 I'm proud of you.

01:12:06.060 That's right.

01:12:06.580 Yeah.

01:12:07.060 No, that's, that is fascinating.

01:12:09.280 I mean, I saw one, maybe it was Eltham Flores and one of his other comments too.

01:12:13.440 Like there is, there is interesting stuff about, uh, like the sons of Noah, for example,

01:12:19.660 being demonized.

01:12:19.960 Let's just read this one.

01:12:20.740 Yeah, here it is.

01:12:21.120 He says, uh, my personal suspicion is that most gods began as great men, sons of Noah.

01:12:25.960 Some may have been saints that when they died, demons disguised themselves as their spirits

01:12:30.760 and subverted their memories.

01:12:33.100 Hmm.

01:12:33.460 Um, yeah, I mean, there's, there's tons of fascinating stuff about like, um, you know,

01:12:40.040 various like Japhethites, like, like Scythians and the people that preceded them and, and their 0.99

01:12:45.420 particular religion.

01:12:46.440 And it's like, it really does seem like, like, cause they were, they're sort of monotheistic

01:12:51.860 and, and it's like, they divinized Japheth and made him, you know, made him the, the main

01:12:59.060 God, um, or, or their God or the conception of God.

01:13:02.520 And it, it's, it's fascinating stuff.

01:13:04.620 And it's like, yeah, that, I mean, that seems very plausible to me.

01:13:07.700 And I mean, so much of this stuff though, it's like, well, I don't really know.

01:13:10.640 It's weird.

01:13:11.060 And, and, and so many of these peoples and, and their histories, there's, there's just

01:13:17.320 not much there that, that we have, that's extant, you know, to, to know what is it they

01:13:23.600 really believed or, or where, and where did it come from?

01:13:27.220 And I think it's important to remember, you know, a lot of us get uncomfortable when we're

01:13:30.660 talking about spiritual matters and doctrine, uh, you know, if it's not directly in the

01:13:34.940 Bible, then, you know, we can't, we can't talk about it.

01:13:37.800 But of course that wasn't true for most of Christian history.

01:13:40.460 There are things that are canonical that are, you know, divinely inspired that we know to

01:13:45.660 be, you know, very important, but that doesn't mean that there isn't other, you know, uh, items

01:13:50.180 that we can think about, that we can explore, that we can use historical and spiritual texts

01:13:54.500 to, to try to better understand without giving them, elevating to the level of like God breathed

01:14:00.060 scripture in, in our eyes.

01:14:01.340 Absolutely.

01:14:02.280 Absolutely.

01:14:02.780 On, on the Tao, there's a book that was often recommended to me that I never actually read

01:14:06.920 called Christ, the eternal Tao.

01:14:09.160 Uh, I've heard that one too.

01:14:10.340 Yeah.

01:14:10.820 Or, like Orthodox convert who was a practicing Taoist or something.

01:14:14.720 So that might be good.

01:14:16.100 Check that out.

01:14:17.140 I, I've never read it, but it sounds fascinating.

01:14:19.540 Possibly connected there from Zwingle says, uh, there are still places in the world where

01:14:24.700 the spirits are wild and hostile to men.

01:14:27.180 Best example is the American West.

01:14:29.480 And yeah, I mean, if you look guys again, you know, we're, we're, we're not going to

01:14:33.660 get new agey on you here, but if you haven't been in the deep, dark places of America and

01:14:37.700 felt something stirring, I, I don't know either.

01:14:41.020 You're not connected.

01:14:41.620 I think you're making stuff up or you're denying your, you know, I don't know.

01:14:44.500 Yeah.

01:14:44.820 Yeah.

01:14:45.020 There's a lot of weird stuff out there and, and it's true.

01:14:49.220 Right.

01:14:49.880 Like, I mean, I, I don't know.

01:14:52.240 I mean, I think, uh, like the best modern prophet, uh, was probably, uh, the late David

01:14:58.680 Lynch.

01:14:59.760 Right.

01:15:00.160 Uh, like there's some weird stuff, man.

01:15:04.380 Yeah.

01:15:04.540 That's right.

01:15:05.240 Yeah.

01:15:05.900 Yeah.

01:15:06.220 And I mean, did you see, I think it was Tucker on Bannon talking about like, yeah, nuclear

01:15:10.680 weapons came from demons, man.

01:15:12.260 Like that's just, yeah, I guess.

01:15:14.120 Which is funny.

01:15:14.540 Cause I think it was like, he stole that take from Gio Pancetti.

01:15:16.900 No, maybe he did.

01:15:19.420 Maybe he stole it for Gio.

01:15:20.340 Maybe Gio got it from watching, uh, twin peaks, the return or something.

01:15:24.620 I was just, he's, he's just hit that before multiple times.

01:15:28.080 And so the minute I heard that, I was like, I've heard that before.

01:15:31.400 There it is.

01:15:32.240 Yeah.

01:15:33.960 Uh, Senator Brundle fly says, I don't think it's coincidence that Oppenheimer thought of

01:15:38.200 Vishnu when, uh, first dropping atomic bomb, uh, shows, uh, fashioned from the torn up

01:15:44.420 floorboards of reality.

01:15:47.760 Yeah.

01:15:47.940 There we go.

01:15:48.740 Uh, we just, we're thinking about it.

01:15:50.960 Yeah.

01:15:51.120 Like it's weird.

01:15:52.760 Many of the great scientists, uh, wasn't, uh, well, a lot of chemistry comes from alchemy,

01:15:58.980 right?

01:15:59.280 Like a lot of these science, early scientists, like, I don't know.

01:16:02.000 I don't want to accuse Newton of being, uh, a Mason, but you know, he was, he was not

01:16:08.220 a, you know, Orthodox Trinitarian, right?

01:16:10.900 Um, yeah.

01:16:12.000 Experimenting in the occult realms and, uh, probing into the secrets of nature seemed to

01:16:17.440 go hand in hand and dangerous.

01:16:18.580 I mean, he spent much as, uh, just as much time, if not more investigating the spiritual

01:16:23.160 world than he did the physical world, even though that's all we talk about now.

01:16:26.120 People often discard a large part of the enlightenment being called cultic.

01:16:30.600 Like there's just like, Oh, it's all about everybody.

01:16:32.460 So you're rational.

01:16:33.100 It's like, no, actually not at all.

01:16:34.700 If you look into it.

01:16:36.000 Yeah.

01:16:36.420 I remember in high school having to take AP calculus and now, uh, now I know that was

01:16:42.480 just, uh, was just demon stuff, man.

01:16:46.780 I knew that even though I had none of the spirit, I just, that was my, uh, you know, intuition.

01:16:52.540 I didn't need any of the spiritual underlying to grasp that, uh, philosophical thirst one

01:16:58.360 says, uh, God uses the trappings weakness of, uh, uh, paganry to bring people to him.

01:17:04.040 He works through evil.

01:17:05.060 So I assume he works through fire gods too.

01:17:10.040 Very fair.

01:17:11.220 Yeah.

01:17:11.740 He also says Christ's victory makes a special, uh, makes people complacent, but the Zoroastrians 1.00

01:17:16.820 had a good conceptualization that worship is an active struggle alongside your God.

01:17:21.620 And of course, to be very clear, Christianity has exactly this conception as well, right?

01:17:26.360 It is about running the race.

01:17:27.820 It is the, there is a path set before you.

01:17:30.400 You are not some, you know, uh, you're not just riding in the sidecar of the Disneyland

01:17:35.340 amusement park.

01:17:36.360 That is your life.

01:17:37.620 Uh, you know, and God's just put you on the track.

01:17:39.480 Like you, of course, God has a plan, but you are an active participant.

01:17:42.980 You are someone who is charged with the struggle.

01:17:45.640 Uh, and so, yeah, don't, yes, the victory is inevitable because of Christ's overcoming, but

01:17:51.300 that doesn't mean you don't have a very real role to play.

01:17:54.040 And that doesn't mean that the, the spiritual conflicts that you are experiencing or that

01:17:58.020 you're trying your best not to notice aren't real.

01:18:00.400 They are very real.

01:18:02.740 Yeah.

01:18:03.140 The cult of Mithras was, um, you know, Zoroastrian religion that was very popular among the Roman

01:18:08.360 soldiery.

01:18:09.020 And I think that it might've had something to do with this.

01:18:11.780 It's, it's like a high agency version of salvation.

01:18:14.960 And, uh, you know, in Christianity, right, is it's also a very high agency version of

01:18:19.960 salvation.

01:18:20.460 You know, the, the militia Christi and this sort of thing like appeals to, to, to people

01:18:26.900 who, um, who have a lot of responsibility and have high stakes placed on them.

01:18:32.020 So interesting parallel.

01:18:33.520 So, uh, we're, uh, not trying to say this weird e-curb says, uh, first Corinthians eight

01:18:40.500 four does say that an idol has no real, uh, existence.

01:18:43.860 Where does this fit in with all this?

01:18:45.380 Hope that makes sense.

01:18:46.020 Either way, five bucks or, well, thank you very much.

01:18:47.920 You guys, uh, uh, I'm assuming that, uh, Andrew is far more likely to know that particular

01:18:53.880 address, but I don't want to put you on the spot.

01:18:56.180 I don't have, we haven't Googled this.

01:18:57.840 No, I think it's, I think it's a good point.

01:19:00.280 I mean, it's one that, um, that people often make, and it's a difficult thing to balance

01:19:04.400 because in the same epistle, right.

01:19:06.660 Paul is talking about, you know, people that, uh, eat food offered to idols and, um, or that

01:19:14.260 go to, you know, temple cult prostitutes, things like that, that you are, you are having 0.81

01:19:20.020 communion with demons, right.

01:19:21.480 That if you eat food offered to idols, you are, you are, you're eating with demons is what

01:19:27.740 you're doing.

01:19:28.180 And, and so, so it's very real, but like, uh, I think that in particular is like reference

01:19:34.240 to idol itself, like the, the physical object.

01:19:36.740 And it's like, yeah, just destroy those things, man.

01:19:38.880 Like, don't, don't even suffer them.

01:19:41.160 Uh, they, yeah, good.

01:19:43.480 This is also something that I just did not understand until I read the ancient city.

01:19:47.340 Again, just talking about the seriousness with which, you know, uh, the pagan religions

01:19:52.000 were taken in these times, you know, that, that the, the joint eating of the sacrificial

01:19:56.440 meal is what bonds the society together.

01:19:59.260 It's what makes you part of that society.

01:20:01.480 And that's what closes you to communion with other societies that because you have taken

01:20:06.380 that sacrifice and become part of that, you are not subject to other gods.

01:20:10.860 You're not subject to other peoples.

01:20:12.420 And so when the Bible in these instances, you know, I just thought, oh, well, you know,

01:20:16.560 uh, sacrificing meat to a false God is bad.

01:20:19.160 And so that's why you don't eat it.

01:20:20.400 No, no, they were warning you very specifically, like by consuming this meal, you are forgoing

01:20:26.020 your connection to Christ and your connection to your Christian brotherhood or to, or in

01:20:30.980 the old Testament to Yahweh.

01:20:32.720 And instead you are embracing the gods of the city.

01:20:36.020 You are closing yourself and becoming part of that particular people in their tradition

01:20:40.220 and their worship, uh, which, which is just a much heavier, like, I mean, you know, it's

01:20:44.880 always important part of the Bible, but that really added an additional weight to that

01:20:48.640 decision and that, uh, the, that, uh, uh, command to not engage in that behavior because

01:20:53.640 it's not just a like, oh, idols are bad thing.

01:20:56.180 It's like, well, yes, but also there's a deep spiritual power to consuming this meal that

01:21:00.300 you might not understand as a modern person, but would have been very apparent to the ancients.

01:21:05.900 Yeah.

01:21:06.420 And it's, and it's, and it isn't just, uh, spiritual.

01:21:08.960 I mean, it is ultimately spiritual, but it's also like political and sociological, right?

01:21:14.120 If the, um, the, the sociological impact of, of idolatry is, is like maybe the main thing,

01:21:23.800 like, and that's what you're bringing up that, um, and like a book, uh, that is great is really,

01:21:29.800 really good on this is, is Peter Lightheart's, uh, delivered from the elements, um, where a

01:21:35.060 lot of the stuff we've been talking about, he, he goes over and, and so like you're, you're

01:21:41.540 being bonded to the rest of the society in, in participating in these things.

01:21:46.440 So really like the modern analog to that is like, if you're eating at the cafe that has

01:21:52.440 the, the gay trans flag hanging over the front, like, yeah, don't eat that food, right? 1.00

01:21:58.840 Don't, don't eat there.

01:22:00.080 You're not, you're, you're taking that food into your, so you're saying I'm good with

01:22:03.200 this.

01:22:03.480 I'm part of this society, this thing.

01:22:05.800 And I, I'm implicitly agreeing with everything.

01:22:08.900 All these people agree.

01:22:09.780 I'm, I'm one of them and don't, don't do that.

01:22:12.860 Um, so.

01:22:14.720 Yeah.

01:22:15.180 And I mean, that's like one of the reasons that Christianity was so polarizing is because 1.00

01:22:21.420 so much of the actual meat eaten is these public festivals.

01:22:25.160 That's like when you have all the meat coming in, you sacrifice the bulls, uh, all of these,

01:22:32.300 you know, hecatombs that you talk about in, in ancient history and, uh, all like every

01:22:37.780 Roman festival.

01:22:38.540 And there's like one practically every day in Rome in some corner of the city in a big

01:22:42.640 city like that.

01:22:43.580 It's, you know, it's meat sacrificed to idols first and foremost, and then shared, maybe

01:22:48.040 sent off, sold to the meat markets.

01:22:49.820 And it's, this stuff is just everywhere.

01:22:51.900 They're kind of like, at least, you know, recently we had a cafe near, near our house

01:22:56.720 that, that stopped doing the pride flag for, for pride month.

01:23:02.540 I think they, they, uh, they sort of, you know, stuck their thumb in the air and figured

01:23:07.220 out which way the wind was blowing.

01:23:08.760 Thanks for it.

01:23:09.500 It was a big relief.

01:23:11.380 Yeah.

01:23:11.980 But yeah, it's hard to get away from this stuff.

01:23:13.840 Well, and it really is important.

01:23:15.380 Like you said, that this is why, you know, first the Jews were such a problem for the Romans 1.00

01:23:19.700 and then the Christians is they had specific requirements that allow, that, that mark them

01:23:25.240 apart from Imperial subjects, right?

01:23:27.500 You, you can have whatever gods you want, as long as you're going to sacrifice to Caesar,

01:23:31.000 as long as you'll, you know, you, you just need to add it to your festivals, but we need

01:23:34.800 you to take on some of the Imperial cult so that we know you're subject to us, that you're

01:23:39.240 fitting in, that you're part of this.

01:23:40.800 And so by rejecting this, you know, it's not just, uh, the ceremony you're showing a civic

01:23:46.820 disobedience, but also a unwillingness to integrate into the community, unwillingness to conform

01:23:53.180 and unwillingness, uh, to assimilate as so many Americans want, you know, immigrants to

01:23:58.540 do today.

01:23:58.920 You're, you're, you're staking your flag and saying, no, you know, this is not something

01:24:02.940 I will participate in.

01:24:03.980 And that's going to create a rift in that kind of social fabric, um, in it for the good

01:24:09.540 for, for those of us who want, you know, believe that ultimately the good is Christ.

01:24:13.700 But, uh, that was a real civic concern, real political concern also being, uh, addressed

01:24:19.560 when, uh, people would not participate in those rituals.

01:24:23.200 Uh, Thimplar says, uh, Virgil, how do I say that one guys?

01:24:28.260 Ecologues.

01:24:29.080 Ecologues are, uh, especially cool because Virgil begs for a few more years.

01:24:33.980 Of life to live, to see the child.

01:24:36.440 He sadly died only 20 years before Jesus.

01:24:40.820 Yeah, man.

01:24:43.680 That stuff's everywhere.

01:24:44.880 If you're looking for it, um, William Womble says, uh, the AI aren't demons, just oracles

01:24:50.220 that we seek truth from whose minds their creators don't fully understand.

01:24:55.680 They're not demons.

01:24:56.740 They're just exactly demons.

01:24:57.860 Yes.

01:24:58.160 Yeah.

01:24:59.340 Yeah.

01:25:00.080 They're often raw.

01:25:01.160 It's weird.

01:25:01.680 Yeah.

01:25:02.080 And then, uh, cage, uh, Minowara says, why are we assuming that all gods, the pagans

01:25:09.840 worshiped were demons when you read the Bible or when you read the stories of the

01:25:14.040 Tuthadana, uh, they, uh, the, the way they tell humanity, uh, humanity to live is pretty

01:25:21.800 much the same as mosaic law.

01:25:25.160 Andrew, I'll let you handle that one.

01:25:26.520 Um, yeah, that's, that's like a really good point, uh, as well.

01:25:29.840 And, and the book that I referenced by Lightheart, um, is really fascinating because it gets in

01:25:34.980 into these things that, that basically like you go, he describes life in like ancient Egypt

01:25:41.180 or ancient Persia or Greece, uh, Rome and, and shows that they all had, um, you know, very

01:25:50.100 similar, you know, uh, societal structures where, um, there were, there were different foods.

01:25:58.020 You couldn't, could not eat.

01:25:59.140 There were different, uh, you know, there are different sexual practices that, that were 0.75

01:26:03.580 prohibited and reviewed as, as profane, um, or other ones that were reviewed as very good.

01:26:10.380 Um, there were, uh, there's different clothes you could and couldn't wear, like all sorts

01:26:14.980 of things that like you see in the mosaic law.

01:26:17.080 It's just that all of these various, um, civilizations, right.

01:26:22.160 It was like looking at the mosaic law, but through like a fun house mirror.

01:26:25.340 Right.

01:26:26.340 So it's just a little bit distorted.

01:26:27.340 It's a little bit off.

01:26:28.340 It's a little bit different.

01:26:29.340 And you see that.

01:26:30.340 And it's like, uh, and, and they also had, you know, gave people like moral law and, and

01:26:37.200 most of, most of it was, was actually like, don't steal.

01:26:41.720 Don't, don't lie.

01:26:42.840 Don't commit adultery.

01:26:44.080 Don't do all these things.

01:26:44.820 Like it's very similar to the 10 commandments, but sometimes it's just a little bit different.

01:26:49.060 It's just a little bit off.

01:26:50.460 And I feel like those who are familiar with natural law would recognize this, right?

01:26:54.400 There's, there's, there's a, there is a level of natural law built into the universe because

01:26:58.960 God created it.

01:27:00.000 There's a certain amount of it that we can rationally or spiritually into it, but there's

01:27:04.740 also a revelatory part that goes beyond what we can into it.

01:27:08.280 And so the mosaic law might be echoed in civilizations that are observing some aspect of natural law,

01:27:14.760 but it may not be correct.

01:27:16.700 And it certainly of course, isn't fulfilled without Christ.

01:27:19.640 And so, you know, this is why so many, uh, you know, the early church were able to draw

01:27:25.320 on, you know, pagans still point out that they were making, you know, Aristotle famously

01:27:30.360 is a huge part of Catholic theology because Aristotle is observing things that are true

01:27:35.620 about the world because God put them in there.

01:27:37.680 That doesn't mean that Aristotle had the entire truth, but that doesn't mean you need to throw

01:27:41.300 out everything that Aristotle understood because he was grasping something that Christianity could 0.94

01:27:45.980 further elucidate once it was applied.

01:27:48.740 Yeah.

01:27:49.200 You don't throw out the math textbook because it's not in the Bible.

01:27:51.620 Right.

01:27:52.120 Right.

01:27:52.500 Like things like that.

01:27:53.620 And, and, and, and, and with that too, it's like, I mean, it's interesting, right?

01:27:59.000 I'm preaching through Genesis right now with my church and the early parts of Genesis, right?

01:28:04.540 You see things like, uh, one, like Cain and Abel are expected to know how to sacrifice properly.

01:28:10.660 Um, or Noah is expected to know what clean and unclean animals are.

01:28:16.420 And this is, you know, centuries or millennia before the Mosaic law is given to Moses where

01:28:21.220 all of it is elucidated.

01:28:22.540 And so you're left with like one of, one of two conclusions.

01:28:25.700 One is that, right.

01:28:27.600 They should have been able to deduce all these things on their own, which I think is difficult

01:28:31.680 to get to.

01:28:32.920 Um, or it's like, well, they had angels tell them what to do and that's just not written

01:28:38.760 down, right?

01:28:39.780 And, and the place where it is written down is Paul says in Galatians that, that, um,

01:28:48.100 uh, that Israel was kept under, under the angels, right? 0.70

01:28:52.320 That the, that rather that the law was, was administered to them to be the hand of the

01:28:56.400 angels.

01:28:56.740 And it's like, oh, that's interesting.

01:28:58.840 So if like the angels that are faithful to God and carrying out his will are doing that,

01:29:06.120 right?

01:29:06.340 Well, what is it the, the fallen ones where they, uh, throughout the rest of the world,

01:29:10.340 what are they doing?

01:29:11.640 And it's like, well, they're doing a counterfeit version of that.

01:29:15.340 Right.

01:29:15.660 And so a good counterfeit, right?

01:29:19.260 Like if I was going to counterfeit a $20 bill, uh, not that I'm, I would, but if I was going

01:29:24.680 to, right, you want to make it as close to the real thing as possible.

01:29:29.200 Right.

01:29:29.680 Uh, you don't want it to look like it was made in crayon.

01:29:31.840 And so that's, that's, I think what, what they were doing.

01:29:36.040 Um, and so, uh, when, when the commenter brings this up, right.

01:29:40.980 I think that's, that's what took place in, in the ancient world is right.

01:29:45.140 Demons were ruling, were really, truly actually governing the societies and, and you don't 0.52

01:29:50.320 want to govern a society that is totally, um, you know, totally messed up and chaotic

01:29:55.680 and there's no order or anything like that.

01:29:57.580 Like, no, all of these societies that were ruled by demons were like strong and powerful.

01:30:03.040 And, and the thing that actually happened is the gospel comes and takes away all of the

01:30:07.960 order and stability and, um, and, and, and security that it had like the, this big powerful

01:30:15.100 Roman empire now falls apart.

01:30:17.480 Right.

01:30:17.720 Why it's, it's because the thing that's holding it together is gone, right?

01:30:21.800 This power that holds it together has, has been eradicated.

01:30:25.340 Uh, and the same thing happens with, with the Aztecs or the same thing happens everywhere

01:30:29.360 else, uh, that right.

01:30:32.160 Demonic power actually gives a lot of power and stability to, to these, think of how long

01:30:37.260 the Aztec empire lasted.

01:30:37.720 People were worshiping this stuff for a reason.

01:30:39.420 They're not just doing it.

01:30:40.040 Hundreds of years.

01:30:41.040 Yeah.

01:30:41.280 Like millennia at last.

01:30:42.940 Right.

01:30:43.300 Um, and so there was real power there, real like sociological power to hold up, uh, hold

01:30:49.040 up an entire civilization together for a very, very long period of time.

01:30:52.740 And then it goes away.

01:30:54.000 It disappears.

01:30:54.680 It collapses.

01:30:55.220 It's gone.

01:30:56.000 Um, and, and so like, I think that's why, right.

01:30:59.520 They're not going to do stupid things.

01:31:01.220 They're going to do clever and smart things.

01:31:03.680 And yet, you know, natural law can, you know, shine through and lead people to good deductions.

01:31:10.180 I like this formulation that was made by an Orthodox Bishop.

01:31:13.760 I think he's talking about non-Orthodox Christians, but you know, he said that I know where the 1.00

01:31:17.860 church is.

01:31:18.720 I know where Christ is, but I don't know where he isn't.

01:31:21.620 And that signals a kind of openness that, you know, if you, if you look outside in the

01:31:26.200 pagan world of pre-Christianity or, you know, in other religions, you might, you might find

01:31:31.640 things that, that might indeed be good and might be some kind of preparatio evangelica,

01:31:36.920 you know, like preparation for the gospel in some economy that you don't understand.

01:31:41.820 And it kind of brings me back to Elphampleur's, uh, comment on Virgil, you know, Virgil, if

01:31:46.760 you read his, his Aeneid, um, just as a historian or, or kind of a Roman scholar, it's this incredible,

01:31:52.840 uh, prophetic, um, or, or story of providence in history that I think the Romans, uh, needed

01:32:01.860 to feel at that time after a period of great civil war and transition from Republic to empire.

01:32:06.360 But you can see a lot of that prophecy in a different light.

01:32:10.300 If you look at it as preparing the way for, uh, you know, a political Pax Romana that could

01:32:16.900 allow the spread of Christianity to take hold and in this more powerful way and allow, allow 0.81

01:32:21.580 a greater trans transformation and fulfillment, uh, in the history of, of the West through the

01:32:27.140 gospel.

01:32:27.920 So, you know, I, I, I say the more, the merrier, but that's kind of, you know, you have to know

01:32:34.220 what, what is in the inner circle and what is on the fringes and just be wary as you go

01:32:39.360 along.

01:32:41.500 Well, once again, guys, I want to thank you, say thanks to both of you for making the time.

01:32:45.840 I know some of you were taking a very important time out of, uh, you know, uh, having a kid

01:32:51.000 and congratulations, Alex, and being on vacation, Andrew.

01:32:53.900 So, uh, really appreciate you guys making, uh, the time.

01:32:57.660 If you're not checking out both of their work, obviously you should be, this has been absolutely

01:33:01.780 fascinating and great questions from, uh, the, uh, audience this time too, you know, always

01:33:06.620 great to hear from you guys, but really elevated, uh, the conversation as well with that question

01:33:10.660 and answer period.

01:33:11.220 So really appreciate you guys putting in the effort as well.

01:33:14.880 If it's your first time on this channel, of course, please make sure you subscribe on YouTube,

01:33:18.460 click the bell notification because he, as you might imagine, uh, you know, uh, this form

01:33:23.340 of discussion gets a little less traffic from Google, uh, then, uh, oh my gosh, we're going

01:33:27.920 to war with Iran.

01:33:28.580 So, uh, you know, help out, get people in here, uh, drive, drive some people over to

01:33:32.560 the channel.

01:33:32.920 If you want to get these broadcasts as podcasts, remember you need to subscribe to the Oren

01:33:37.620 McIntyre show on your favorite podcast platform.

01:33:40.020 If you do leave that rating or review, it helps with the algorithm.

01:33:43.200 And once again, everybody really appreciate you listening as always.

01:33:46.780 We'll talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - June 23, 2025

Did Christ's Resurrection Seal Away the Old Gods？｜ Guests： Andrew Isker and Alex Petkas ｜ 6⧸23⧸25

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

The Auron MacIntyre Show - June 23, 2025

Did Christ's Resurrection Seal Away the Old Gods？ ｜ Guests： Andrew Isker and Alex Petkas ｜ 6⧸23⧸25

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Did Christ's Resurrection Seal Away the Old Gods？｜ Guests： Andrew Isker and Alex Petkas ｜ 6⧸23⧸25