The Auron MacIntyre Show - May 30, 2025


Does Christianity Call for the End of Nations？ ｜ Guest： Stephen Wolfe ｜ 5⧸30⧸5

Topics
connected ancestry Anglo-Protestant assimilation in America assimilation over generations
Hosted by
Auron MacIntyre
Guests
Stephen Wolfe
Mentioned
Stephen Wolf Oren Winners Josh Hawley Samuel Huntington Jonathan Pajot Abraham Lincoln William Wolfe Donald Trump Magna Carta Doug Wilson John Locke Aristotle Spangler McIntyre Scalia
That's Not Classical Liberalism ｜ 5⧸29⧸25 The Glenn Greenwald Leaks ｜ 6⧸2⧸25

Episode Stats


Length

52 minutes

Words per minute

184.08

Word count

9,641

Sentence count

520

Harmful content

Misogyny

3

sentences flagged

Hate speech

26

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Stephen W. Wolfe joins me to discuss his new book, The Case for Christian Nationalism: How to Build a Christian Identity in America, and why he believes that Christianity is the most important religion in America.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
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00:00:30.000 Hey, everybody. How's it going?
00:00:31.740 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.
00:00:33.320 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.
00:00:37.440 Unfortunately, I think there's a lot of confusion around the nature of Christianity
00:00:41.220 and the nature of national identity.
00:00:43.740 On one side, you have kind of the online pagan guys who will say,
00:00:49.220 oh, well, Christianity is a universalist religion, so you can't have nations. 0.86
00:00:53.400 It destroys nations.
00:00:54.900 It's always going to dissolve national character because it's some foreign faith, 1.00
00:00:58.540 not specifically tied to your ethnos.
00:01:01.420 But then on the other side, you have some Christians who say that American identity is
00:01:06.720 just Christianity, and that's kind of all you need to bind people together.
00:01:10.880 And why, of course, Christianity is a critical part of America.
00:01:14.880 Armenia is a Christian nation.
00:01:16.300 And there are many Christian nations, and that doesn't mean that they are like the United States.
00:01:21.560 So I thought it would be good to discuss this issue with someone who has thought deeply about it.
00:01:26.260 Today, I'm joined by the author of The Case for Christian Nationalism, Stephen Wolfe.
00:01:30.460 Thank you so much for coming on, man.
00:01:32.600 Yeah.
00:01:32.760 Thanks for inviting me.
00:01:34.240 This is great.
00:01:35.520 Of course.
00:01:36.040 Like I said, I've read your book.
00:01:37.420 I enjoyed it.
00:01:38.060 I thought it was very thoughtful.
00:01:39.320 And also, I had William Wolfe on earlier this week, so I had to collect the set.
00:01:42.920 You know, there are two wolves on the ORAM.
00:01:44.320 Oh, my brother.
00:01:45.060 You brought my brother on.
00:01:46.180 That's great.
00:01:47.180 Yeah.
00:01:47.760 So I figured we might as well double up.
00:01:50.080 So we're going to dive deep into this topic, guys.
00:01:52.200 But before we do, let's hear from today's sponsor.
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00:02:44.960 All right, Stephen, so I think we'll start at kind of the 5,000-foot view, because this might be too simple for some, but I think it's important to define our terms here.
00:02:53.520 A lot of people just use jargon without being familiar with the actual background or understanding, and I think it's important if we're going to frame this discussion to have these terms defined.
00:03:02.500 So for people who aren't familiar or maybe have only had contact with kind of an Abrahamic faith, what is the difference between a particularist religion and a universal religion, and does Christianity qualify as a universalist religion?
00:03:15.860 Yeah, that's a great question.
00:03:18.580 So I would think that a particularist religion would be one in which that is more you have local deities or you have some sort of ancestral ties to the dead that are buried and localized in the place.
00:03:32.300 And that was very common across the world before, you could say, you know, the monotheistic or the Abrahamic religions.
00:03:40.220 And so the problem with that is they're false, but the good side, the effect of that can be that people are attached to their homeland because through essentially natural affections.
00:03:55.800 So they have the long dead who are buried next to them, and there's some kind of spiritual connection that they believe.
00:04:03.500 And the benefit is it connects them to the people in place, and I do think that Christianity is a universalistic religion, meaning that it's a universal religion, meaning that it is for all people.
00:04:17.580 It is the only true religion, and that means all other religions are false, at least in their totality. 0.99
00:04:25.120 And so it is a universal religion as a religion, and so I would agree with that.
00:04:31.200 I kind of know where this is going in terms of politics.
00:04:34.740 I think in terms of politics, you can still maintain a particularist approach, that is, you have a people and a place that are distinct to that place, distinct to as a people and their cultural particularities, and yet also at the same time be Christian.
00:04:49.560 And actually a large part of my work and in the book is me trying to resolve that question because there is, as I said, there is the good of having a particular people in place.
00:05:00.420 It's also true that the true religion is a universal religion.
00:05:03.780 So, yeah, so that was my concern to try to reconcile those two things in the book.
00:05:13.100 Excellent.
00:05:13.720 Yeah, like I said, a lot of people, I think, who have just grown up in America, familiar with kind of the modern conception of Christianity, they're not familiar with any of these other faiths.
00:05:26.180 If they don't know this history, again, I've repped this book several times, but I'll do it yet again.
00:05:31.740 Festelle de Colange's The Ancient City is a fantastic book for people who want to really get a grasp of what ancient religions might have looked like and what that kind of almost ancestor worship or deities very particular to the city and commuting with deities that are specifically only to the city.
00:05:49.120 Like how that changes and shifts mentalities quite a bit.
00:05:53.040 And like you said, you know, Christianity is the true faith.
00:05:56.460 And so we're not trying to over romanticize that particular aspect of it.
00:06:00.460 But that is usually the argument I see from many like kind of online pagans.
00:06:06.360 And I don't want to give this too much airtime since I don't feel like this is a significant group that really has a huge purchase on, you know, political life in the United States or spiritual life in the United States.
00:06:17.340 But the criticism they bring on a regular basis is because of the universal nature of Christianity, it's always going to destroy nations.
00:06:25.900 It's always eventually going to lead this idea that we have to get rid of borders, that people are allowed to have their own home countries, this kind of thing.
00:06:33.460 And so if we can just purge Christianity from the West, which I think is kind of hilarious since that literally is what defines the West that they know and love. 0.96
00:06:41.800 But if we could just purge this ancient faith of our fathers from that, then we could get back to real traditions like the pagan ones that we never practice. 0.97
00:06:49.420 And that will actually save Western nations from being consumed by this globalist ideology.
00:06:54.540 Yeah, well, I will say that the people who bring that critique, they have a point to an extent.
00:07:06.800 And the point is, the point they're making is rooted in that many Christians today do have, they take the universality of the religion, and they do bring that down to nations. 0.95
00:07:17.520 They essentially make their political theology or their political theory a sort of universalist political theology.
00:07:24.740 They neglect customs, they neglect ancestry, they neglect civil traditions and that sort of thing.
00:07:32.080 And we see that online all the time.
00:07:34.200 And so if they're reacting to that in a way, if that's how they're interpreting what Christianity is, then in a way they might be correct. 0.89
00:07:43.540 And I will say that the tendency to universalize all the way down and into politics and politicalized civil life is a sort of vice that Christians can have. 0.99
00:07:52.980 I think it's false, but I can understand how someone can go from there and end up doing that.
00:07:59.680 But I think that the tradition, the Christian tradition itself, basically speaks very directly against that.
00:08:05.380 I think the tendency among modern Christians to do that is really due not to Christianity, but to basically modern life.
00:08:11.860 I think since World War II, we've had this, as we call the consensus, is there's been this push for universality to be part of every aspect of life for various reasons.
00:08:24.420 And what they've done is they've essentially brought, they've theologized that consensus.
00:08:30.240 So I think they've been socialized into a type of universality.
00:08:36.100 And then when they encounter Christian theology, they have to account for it, especially among Protestants who basically tend to want to theologize everything.
00:08:45.780 And so they bring that into their own theology.
00:08:48.800 And I think that's a mistake.
00:08:50.160 I think it's contrary to the broad Christian tradition among many different traditions, from Roman Catholic to classical Protestant and others.
00:08:59.240 And so I think it's an error, nevertheless.
00:09:02.580 I do think, and this is one of the reasons I wrote the book and my other work, is to combat what I think is a modern error.
00:09:10.360 And I think in a way it's anti-human, because I think we as humans are designed to adopt a sort of second nature.
00:09:19.140 That second nature is going to be a type of ethical life that is informed by people and place and culture, heritage traditions, parents.
00:09:26.480 And there's going to be an attachment to it.
00:09:28.680 And that's just a deeply human thing.
00:09:30.940 And so part of what I've been arguing is that actually grace does not destroy what is fundamentally human.
00:09:36.880 It does not destroy, like you accepting the gospel and becoming a Christian does not eradicate the fact that you're American or Nigerian or French or English.
00:09:46.760 It doesn't eradicate that.
00:09:49.760 It actually affirms that.
00:09:51.660 What grace does, it perfects, it completes, and it corrects error.
00:09:56.940 But it also assumes the fundamental things of our nature.
00:10:01.020 And that distinction of nature and grace is really central to my project.
00:10:05.260 It was central to the Reformers' projects.
00:10:07.940 Just across the board, everyone basically affirmed that.
00:10:10.240 And of course, it's, you know, solid within the Thomistic tradition as well.
00:10:13.980 So that's how, you know, I can get more and more detail on that.
00:10:18.940 But that's how I think that we can account for these basic human needs that we have to belong to a place across time.
00:10:28.100 And at the same time, affirm a universal religion.
00:10:31.880 They're perfectly reconcilable, if you just give a little bit of thought.
00:10:35.340 Yeah, it's always amazing to me that there are so many kind of Christian spokesmen, I guess, on, you know, the moderate right or something that they act as if real Christianity begin with the Civil Rights Act or something like that.
00:10:53.620 That's actually when Christians finally, you know, realized what the Bible actually said once it had been, you know, you got the hermeneutic of the Civil Rights Act, and that allowed you to finally truly understand what the Bible was telling you.
00:11:05.720 And that seems like so much of what is spouted at, you know, people, and we can get into this in a little bit if you'd like also a little bit later.
00:11:15.320 I have my own problems with the moniker Christian nationalism, but I'm very sympathetic to the political project itself.
00:11:22.640 You know, I obviously believe that, you know, God's word is truth and aligning ourselves with it will bring about a better nation.
00:11:29.540 And part of the fulfillment of that is reflecting it in the laws and customs of our own nation.
00:11:35.340 But, you know, a lot of the problem with guys who are really going after this hard in the paint is they seem to have just lifted up kind of, I don't know, not even particularly, you know, not even classical liberalism, but liberalism for the last 30 years and just kind of run it through a little bit of theology.
00:11:52.100 And on the other side comes this new version of Christianity that they just discovered. 0.68
00:11:56.800 And thank goodness, because all these church fathers before, they just had never, they didn't knew nothing about the Bible.
00:12:02.140 So I read someone like Joseph Demetra, who himself is a Catholic, so he even believes in the universal church.
00:12:07.960 But he's very clear as a very staunch Christian about how different nations will be governed differently, that they will have radically different governments because those will reflect the people and that the people will change over time.
00:12:19.540 And they may need new and different governments.
00:12:21.360 And there's, you know, there is a correct form of government, but is correct to each people based on, you know, their way of being, their place, their customs, these things, as opposed to just this universal system that will be impressed on everybody and that everyone joins once they recognize that your nation is actually the real instantiation of Christianity.
00:12:39.640 Christianity. And so I guess before I kick it over to you, my final thing is just when I look at a lot of these guys, they say, well, Christianity is the only thing that defines the United States.
00:12:50.580 And again, of course, it's foundational. It's critical to what the United States is.
00:12:54.480 But there are many Christian nations. And so obviously, if we're going to talk about what a nation is and avoid the errors that you already pointed out, where people just take on this universalist bent Christianity,
00:13:06.280 then we have to recognize that there are differences between Christian nations and that America is not like the one perfect instantiation of the true will of God. It can't be the same thing. 0.98
00:13:18.220 Right. I mean, we even saw this back in the Iraq war in 2003 and the decades that followed is that we can simply show up and establish, you know, these principles of freedom and liberty and a political system.
00:13:33.800 And that's all you need. Like inside every heart is just a modern liberal. And that's just been that's been theologized.
00:13:41.860 And so, I mean, you have guys that are basically saying that the more sanctified you are, the basically more American liberal you are.
00:13:49.760 And this will be true around the world. It's just a branch of the type of liberal imperialism that we've seen for a long time.
00:13:56.460 And again, just theologized. But of course, that's that's all false.
00:14:01.260 I think Protestantism is central to the the American, say, the American project or American culture, American political system.
00:14:10.220 But that itself is rooted in an Anglo tradition.
00:14:13.420 And so this is why we often talk about Anglo Protestantism as the foundation of our political system, of our culture, of our civic life.
00:14:22.120 And that that's endured for a long time. But that is very particular.
00:14:26.620 I mean, there's universalistic elements of that. We talk about natural rights.
00:14:30.020 Natural rights being natural means are universal.
00:14:32.680 And yet that doesn't mean that everyone's going to acknowledge them or is prepared to acknowledge them.
00:14:36.640 I mean, it took a long time with very particular events in, you know, the Anglo tradition for the for these things to happen, going all the way back to Magna Carta, which itself didn't just, you know, didn't appear from the sky.
00:14:49.880 What was because of very particular political situations among the people.
00:14:55.960 And so it's just kind of ridiculous to think that you could have people come over or people can just be affirm the right doctrine and all of a sudden touch the soil of the United States.
00:15:06.640 And they magically become good Anglo Protestants or they are sanctified into whatever, you know. 0.95
00:15:13.420 And so it's again, it's theologized into a form of liberalism that is not suitable for all people.
00:15:19.480 I mean, one of the most common things you'll find in the tradition is a recognition of one different political regimes, you know, going back to Aristotle and all that.
00:15:27.000 But that's all reflected in the Christian tradition.
00:15:29.780 They regularly would talk about how the characteristics of the people themselves make this or that political system more suitable.
00:15:37.420 And it's there's a type of like American liberal arrogance that's been theologized that that we have to then say that, well, every Christian is just going to just adopt in sanctification our our way of life.
00:15:51.600 And that's simply simply not not true.
00:15:53.440 And I think it's like I've been to Hungary, I've been other places, you know, there's a lot of Protestants in Hungary.
00:15:59.820 They're they're different than Americans and they they'll tell you they'll tell you straight up that they're different than Americans. 0.97
00:16:05.080 And that's fine. I really don't care.
00:16:08.140 This is one of the great aspects of the old paleo conservative tradition, which is the recognition of difference and actually mutual respect of difference.
00:16:16.640 Yes. But if you universalize everything and you think that your way of life is the universal, you end up then now import or exporting your way of life everywhere and demanding that the Christian conforms because that's the only true way of life. 0.93
00:16:30.900 And so there's an element of arrogance and arrogance to that when actually I think that we should just respect difference.
00:16:36.500 And by the way, that's just kind of the tradition that we've been in that for for millennia.
00:16:42.200 So, yeah, I agree. And I will say something that you said earlier about Christian nationalism, the label, I I understand why many people on the right don't like the word nationalism, partly because nationalism has historically been a homogenizing force among, you know, under state power.
00:17:02.260 So I actually I very much respect that disagreement on that. I also understand why people would be uncomfortable with Christian nationalism because for the universal aspects we've already talked about.
00:17:12.300 But what I've been trying to say is, again, that you reconcile universal and and and the particular.
00:17:20.720 So, yeah, that's my argument. I don't know. There might be others claiming the label who who believe differently, but at least that's that's what I'm arguing for.
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00:17:42.300 Is that from Winners? Ooh, or that beautiful silk skirt? Did she pay full price? Or those suede sneakers? Or that luggage? Or that trench? Those jeans? That jacket? Those heels? Is anyone paying full price for anything?
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00:18:00.440 Yeah. And again, for me, the label is really only a problem tactically more than anything else. The left very much the press especially seemed to want to elevate that very aggressively because what they wanted to say, it's it's white Christian nationalism.
00:18:16.080 Obviously, obviously, that's that's what they really wanted to try to push that. This is this is the same thing. But more importantly, and I think, you know, this is something you touch on your book.
00:18:26.420 So this is not a criticism of you at all, because you do have the courage to go into it.
00:18:29.900 But I think one of the problems, again, with the phrase Christian nationalism is it avoids for some people, the messier discussions of what nationalism actually is, because they can just kind of say because, you know, I was I was at NatCon when Josh, Josh Hawley kind of tried to redefine Christian nationalism live on on television.
00:18:46.360 And it looks very, very, very, very, very, very different from, you know, something that you're laying out.
00:18:51.700 And so, again, not a criticism of your work or your position, ultimately, but I think a criticism that the label is perhaps too flexible, both both for the ill when the left is trying to use it in a militant manner and for conservatives when they're attempting to actually define it.
00:19:11.060 But again, this is me being sensitive to kind of dialectic online and that kind of thing, as opposed to perhaps, you know, just talking about the truth or veracity of that particular label.
00:19:24.040 Yeah. And I've I've said actually from the very beginning, I've said that I really don't care if people adopt the label.
00:19:28.820 I just I just want them to affirm the ideas associated with it, whether they call it new Christian, right, or they call it, I don't know, Commonwealth.
00:19:36.620 Well, I don't know. I don't care what they call it. But, you know, in the end, a term is meant to capture certain ideas.
00:19:43.580 And I prefer people adopt the ideas. I will say something about the ideas is just to clear up some confusion.
00:19:49.980 I think that my project, contrary to what people say, is actually very anti-ideological or it's in ideology in the sort of negative connotation of it.
00:20:02.280 And so, you know, I don't think like I said, I don't think every place has to look the same.
00:20:07.960 I don't think that that there's there's a absolute set of laws or political systems that must be in place.
00:20:16.200 There are some people in the Protestant camp that would disagree with that, even some who might adopt the label.
00:20:22.000 But it really comes down to the the nation itself.
00:20:25.360 The reason I like the label Christian nationalism is because I could then tease out and say, OK, nationalism assumes there's this thing called the nation.
00:20:33.020 And so I spend a lot of time trying to describe and define that nation in ways where in a way, in a way, the practices are very organic to the people.
00:20:44.380 They're created over time. They're not imposed so much from above.
00:20:48.540 And it's very much an organic thing, meaning that it arises from human interaction across time through ancestry and all that.
00:20:55.760 And so it's actually grounded in very much like my Christian nationalism is grounded, actually, in a nature, in a natural law, in a fundamentally human thing.
00:21:06.060 And that fundamentally human thing is, as I said earlier, is receptive.
00:21:10.020 We are born receptive to receive the way of life of our of our people becomes a second nature such that when we left, if we went to become missionaries somewhere in a foreign country, we would be foreigners.
00:21:23.760 And not only foreigners in a legal sense, we'd be foreigners in our own.
00:21:27.340 We'd feed foreign. And I'm sure everyone who's been in a foreign country, even if you're you know, it's safe and you're excited to be there, you still feel foreign.
00:21:35.220 In fact, that's why it's exciting, because you are a foreigner in a in another land.
00:21:39.740 But you can't get rid of that. The same thing if I grew up in California.
00:21:43.540 Now I live in North Carolina. I still am Californian.
00:21:47.580 I still have I still have these great, fond childhood memories of the town I grew up in and that that'll never change.
00:21:56.340 It's hard for me to believe even living here for, you know, if I live here for decades, that I will be able to replace that sentiment I have for my hometown in California with the hometown with the town I am now.
00:22:07.720 Now my kids will be different. So there's just something that we receive.
00:22:11.440 And that's what I wanted to reintroduce into the Christian political discourse, because there's far too much of a type of like it's all about law. 1.00
00:22:23.760 You know, so you have some guys in the in the Protestant world who think it's all about God's law being imposed.
00:22:30.640 And I think actually, yeah, you have to have law, but it's but there's also that that natural cultural aspect that must be reaffirmed and preserved in our theology and in our political practice.
00:22:45.780 Well, I think it would probably be useful at this point to get into a deeper discussion about what a nation is.
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00:23:51.240 So, Stephen, one of the things that I've been trying to do is get people to be more aware of kind of the historical understanding of a nation.
00:24:04.280 The current idea that we have is, well, that nations are just ideas.
00:24:09.700 It's a free-floating set of principles that are inscribed somewhere in a piece of parchment.
00:24:14.480 And that's ultimately what it means to be a nation is to like, you know, there's this proposition and you affirm it.
00:24:21.440 And now you, too, are American or, well, this doesn't work for any other nation, really.
00:24:26.020 That's not in the West.
00:24:27.020 You can't do that with Japan. 1.00
00:24:28.120 But, you know, for some reason, there's something about Western nations that allows them to be entirely based on, like, these abstract principles that you adopt.
00:24:35.560 And what I've been trying to help people to try to grasp is that, no, those ideas come from somewhere.
00:24:42.500 Like, you believe those things because you came up somewhere and were taught them and they were part of your tradition.
00:24:49.300 They're part of your family.
00:24:50.440 Yes, they make sense alongside your faith.
00:24:52.700 You know, God's truth can be in those principles.
00:24:55.560 But those principles will often be reflected differently in different places, even if they are themselves Christian.
00:25:01.760 And so, yes, there are truths that are particular to, you know, God's truth, but there are also truths that are particular to your people and the way that those manifest can be particular to your people.
00:25:12.220 And so when you are looking at the propositions of your nation, it's not that there are no ideas behind the American founding or the founding of other nations, but that these ideas are tied to something beyond just like your abstract acceptance of that thing.
00:25:28.060 Yeah, I totally agree.
00:25:28.820 I think that, yeah, we should acknowledge that a people can have certain ideas or propositions and that often centers on the founding.
00:25:40.540 So we often go back to the founding.
00:25:42.680 We have different phrases that will, you know, talk about ideas of natural rights and inequality, self-government, all that sort of thing.
00:25:51.920 And so I do think those matter to a people on the idea front, though, I again would, you know, I guess repeat what I've already said, which is that those ideas were developed along a certain tradition and we are attached to that, that tradition.
00:26:06.980 And so we have respect for someone, maybe not everyone, but certain respect for people like John Locke and others who have produced or developed these ideas.
00:26:15.780 And of course, the tradition that Locke himself was a part of, which is also deeply Protestant.
00:26:20.940 And so we're kind of part of that tradition that we respect.
00:26:24.100 And I would not expect anyone who comes from outside that tradition to really respect that tradition, at least not fundamentally in their sort of being, like this sense of I ought to, that there's, they might come to the conclusion that people are right through rationalistic reasoning, but they don't have that sense of which this is my tradition that from which I work out my ideas.
00:26:47.300 And so I do think, yeah, ideas, but when I, when I think of what a, what a nation is, I think of it in terms of there, there's a connection of people to the place and this spans across time.
00:27:04.880 So it's intergenerational, it means, and, and this means that in a way it's like, I often speak of a, like an old family farm or an old family house.
00:27:13.700 There's a connection you have to that place, to that house or that land or the backyard or whatever it is, not only because you were there, but because your grandparents lived there.
00:27:25.620 And perhaps they don't, you don't own it, it's sold to someone else, but every time you drive past that house, you look over and you have this sort of fondness for that place.
00:27:34.900 And it might not be an exceptional house.
00:27:36.920 It might be barely standing, but you still have this sense of this connection to that place.
00:27:41.980 And you'd feel sad if that house burned down or was bulldozed or went away.
00:27:47.020 Whereas you would not feel that for some random house, you know, a few blocks over.
00:27:51.560 And so I think you can expand that out to your, your town, to your county, to your state, to your nation.
00:27:59.620 And you have these different points in time that connect you to that.
00:28:03.840 So people have their grandparents fought in World War II.
00:28:07.860 My grandparents did, one grandparent did at least.
00:28:10.000 I have connections going back to the Mayflower.
00:28:13.920 And so you have these, you have these historical moments that your ancestors participated in,
00:28:20.360 which means that it's more than just facts and figures and history and dates that you read in a book.
00:28:25.160 You're actually connected to the very people from which you sprung, you know, from, and you have a natural affection for those people.
00:28:32.920 And I think this is true for any nation.
00:28:35.060 Some, you know, many nations are much older than, than ours.
00:28:37.760 Um, and they can trace their history a lot farther than we can, uh, in this place, but that, that unites you, that connects you.
00:28:45.700 And so it's not, uh, but what I do push up, push against is that belonging is as a matter of just pure genetics, as if, Hey, let's look at your genetic picture, your percentages and say, okay, well, you're, you know, you're too Italian or something like that.
00:29:01.220 Or, you know, you're too Hispanic or whatever. 0.51
00:29:03.380 Or I think it's actually far more a matter of your experience in the world, um, that kind of communicates who your people are and who are not your people.
00:29:12.840 So when I, when I lived in California, the town I was in, had a lot, a large Hispanic population.
00:29:19.160 And since I, I didn't have any sort of ideas of race or anything like that back then, um, I, I would be friends with Hispanics who were just like me, what theme shows, what play basketball during recess.
00:29:30.580 Um, basically the same in terms of culture, except they'd have 50 cousins and I'd have maybe eight, you know, that's the only kind of difference we'd have that we'd have be perfectly perfect, perfect friends without any sort of barrier.
00:29:43.340 So in our own experience, we were one, we, we were actually together in this place, in this nation, despite having different origin or different ancestry going back.
00:29:53.900 But there was a clear distinction between those guys and Hispanics who had been there, maybe they may be their first generation, they would dress different, not speak English very well. 0.89
00:30:03.220 Um, often have a short sort of chip on their shoulder, very, very strange.
00:30:07.060 Um, but, uh, but there was a difference.
00:30:09.780 And so this is how I think just from observation experience, you could say, actually you can have a, a oneness, a sort of togetherness in a nation.
00:30:20.060 That's not so much a genetic type of, uh, you know, uh, quant, quantity, like a quantifiable genetic marker of inclusion, but actually one that's far more based in, in, in experience.
00:30:32.500 And this is why you can have people who are very German or very, um, Irish or very English in this country.
00:30:39.060 Um, you can be, have Hispanics, the same, same as I said before, and that, that I think makes a people, but I do want to emphasize though, that ancestry does matter, but it matters because that means you are united with them in the net, in the nations of, uh, key events, or even the mundane events of that nation.
00:30:57.300 And so it's across time, um, but what, what, in a way, what unites me to, uh, Hispanics who've been here a long time is the fact that their ancestors have been here a long time as well, which means that my ancestors likely interacted or in some way was together on a collective project with them.
00:31:15.740 Um, and so that unites us.
00:31:17.420 So I think that that's a far more, uh, um, non-ideological, non-abstract way of understanding who the people are and who your people, you know, not your people.
00:31:29.460 You know, that's not like a geometric sort of determination of who's in and who's out, but I, um, but something, but not everything can be measured, um, or determined geometrically.
00:31:39.360 Um, so it is, it makes things difficult and nevertheless, that that's how I understand nation connected ancestry, connected to culture, connected to, um, basic similarities of a way of life that, uh, unites you across time and in the present.
00:31:53.100 So hopefully that made some sense.
00:31:56.260 Um, I think it's better than, than an abstract ideological, like, let's just do purely racialized.
00:32:01.440 If you're white, you're in, if you're white, you're out. 1.00
00:32:03.080 But, but I think that just violates basic experience, um, that if people reflect on that, they'd realize that actually there are people who are, who are not, you know, a hundred percent white and, and yet have a type of unity with you in the, in the same place and the same project.
00:32:19.460 So.
00:32:20.460 Yeah.
00:32:20.980 Jonathan Peugeot was good on this.
00:32:22.620 He talks about how one of the problems with, uh, modernity is the desire to just draw hard boundaries on everything and not leave enough play in the joints.
00:32:31.940 Uh, you know, everything has to be ideologically rationally determined, you know, beforehand so that you can put everything into the right compartment where actually life is far more messy.
00:32:41.180 And there's a lot more of, uh, you know, sensing the way of being sensing the, the, you know, the experience rather than necessarily defining it beforehand.
00:32:50.140 And if you look at, uh, even like the perennial traditionalists, you read a guy like Spangler, he didn't like the geneticizing of race.
00:32:57.140 He didn't like the, uh, turning it entirely scientific because he thought it was too, uh, too narrow.
00:33:02.580 You know, uh, it didn't take in the more metaphysical aspects, uh, uh, of, uh, you know, identity.
00:33:08.160 And so therefore like even guys like that were like, no, you, you don't want to just turn this into like, you know, checking someone's 23 and me, uh, to, to figure out whether or not they, they belong here.
00:33:17.480 Which I guess, uh, could, could bring us to another interesting question.
00:33:21.680 Uh, obviously, uh, nationalism and nations are themselves kind of tricky questions because, uh, the, the terms change so much.
00:33:30.740 So for instance, people will talk about nations.
00:33:33.160 And I think when in the Bible, they're thinking about like an ethnos as where today people think nation and they actually literally just think the state, the state and the nation are the same thing.
00:33:43.240 They don't have an idea of these things being separate. Uh, and then there are of course, nationalistic movements, uh, in many countries, which destroyed the individual ethnos of different areas, different cultures, uh, inside what became the unified state.
00:33:58.660 So, uh, I, I don't know if there's a specific question in there, but just an observation about the, the changing, uh, use of the word nation and nationalism can make it very difficult for people to grasp.
00:34:10.160 Like what level of identity you're trying to discuss when you address nationalism.
00:34:16.880 Yeah. Yeah. I think these, these subjects are the, the terms are tricky and I I've gotten in trouble because people have interpreted when I say nation as nation state.
00:34:25.460 And, and so they think I'm advocating for a sort of ethno state and, uh, so, but yeah, I, I, the way I, I use nation, um, in, in, in, in my work is mainly the, uh, as I already described.
00:34:39.980 Um, and, but, but, but it also is the case that when you attach it, when you talk about nationalism, there has been that historically that homogenizing force.
00:34:51.100 Uh, but you certainly see it, you saw it in France, um, uh, over a couple of centuries, few centuries.
00:34:57.060 And so that, that's absolutely the case that, that, that occurred.
00:35:00.300 And so again, I, I understand that, that critique and that concern.
00:35:03.360 Um, I, I, I guess I'm thinking in terms of the, the American context where I actually think American nationalism and, you know, I'm curious what you think about this.
00:35:13.520 I think American nationalism has actually been able to preserve a lot of regional difference, um, what me, a very large country.
00:35:22.300 Uh, and yet, I mean, my experience in the army is interesting because, or my experience point where you have people from all over the country in this little place in New York.
00:35:32.240 And what's interesting is that we were, you know, different from different parts, but I, I had good friends who were from Georgia and, and, and New York and California.
00:35:41.840 And what it made me realize is that, yeah, like we can, we can make fun of each other.
00:35:46.220 I can make fun of the Southerner.
00:35:47.760 I can make fun of the New Yorker.
00:35:49.020 They can all make fun of me as a Californian.
00:35:51.160 And yet at the same time, we're still kind of the same.
00:35:53.960 Like we're still Americans.
00:35:55.000 We can, we can tease each other in the way that men do, um, in a friendly way.
00:35:59.940 And, and he goes back to Georgia and he's, he remains, you know, Georgia and the New Yorker becomes, remains a New Yorker.
00:36:05.880 So I think that we, that in the United States, our nationalism has been able to reconcile that regional difference with a nationalist, um, sentiment.
00:36:15.480 And, um, as someone who's lived in a lot of many places in the country, being, being in the army, uh, what's, I, you could go up to New Jersey and go out in the country and see flags waving.
00:36:24.880 I mean, I've been in cigar bars out in these small towns in, in New Jersey and sit down and feel just right at home.
00:36:31.140 Same thing is true down in Louisiana, where I lived for a while.
00:36:34.100 There is a type of common sentiment among, uh, Americans, particularly conservative Americans.
00:36:40.080 And yet still different accents, different food, different cultures, sometimes different music that we've been able to retain.
00:36:45.680 So, I mean, so I, the point being is that like, I'm, I'm thinking of this kind of American form of nationalism where there is national sentiment and yet also maintaining a regional difference.
00:36:54.660 So I'm, I'm curious actually what you think about that.
00:36:57.680 I think that has definitely been true in the past.
00:37:00.720 And, you know, uh, Doug Wilson used this, uh, example recently we was on, but I do agree with it.
00:37:05.620 He said, you know, I, I go to, uh, the UK, I'm a Yankee.
00:37:08.980 You call me a Yankee here, you're going to get hit, you know, like, you know, so, so there's a, there's a recognition that yes, America is at some level a people to where, if you go somewhere else, they know you're American, nobody needs to explain it to them.
00:37:22.960 They know the mannerisms, they know the attitude, they understand the overall.
00:37:26.680 However, once you start breaking down, what is America?
00:37:29.760 You find that actually there are many other identities inside of America.
00:37:33.360 Uh, and this is of course true, you know, again, of, of other nations, you know, uh, the Catalonians in Spain, these things, you know, they're very, very different, um, identities, even though they're subsumed into this like larger identity, though Catalonia is not the best example for subsuming itself.
00:37:46.860 But the point being is, um, uh, you know, when we look at the American nation, it was certainly a scenario where people understood themselves as, you know, residents of their states first.
00:37:58.220 You know, this is very hard for, you know, I taught high school and trained to explain, uh, to, to students that like, no, uh, you know, uh, general Lee decided that he had to be a Virginian before he was an American.
00:38:12.380 And that just makes no sense to them.
00:38:14.340 Like that there, that does not have any resonance with them because they've been taught that actually no, you know, America is just a bunch of widgets and you just pick them up and drop them wherever.
00:38:23.260 And it's no big deal.
00:38:24.300 And so I think probably prior to the civil war, uh, it was definitely true that America, uh, was able to preserve a high degree of particularity in regionality.
00:38:34.520 And it's, uh, I think that's also why the Republican form of government worked much better at that time because we had, uh, a true understanding of localism, uh, but, uh, you know, after the civil war and certainly after FDR, uh, I think we started to lose that, uh, that independent character.
00:38:49.460 A lot of that comes not just with ideological or, you know, political outcomes.
00:38:54.140 Also, it comes with, uh, technology, you know, the, the, the railroad, uh, the TV, the radio, these things, the university, they destroy particularity and regionality just as, if not more than the political machinations of, you know, uh, FDR or Abraham Lincoln or these kinds of guys.
00:39:12.600 And so I think that there is, um, a difficulty there in maintaining that not, not just because, oh, we, the, like the constitution didn't do its job or something.
00:39:21.600 No, because like literally modernity has this impact, I think on, on everyone.
00:39:26.420 Uh, I, I think that's right.
00:39:29.460 Yeah.
00:39:29.920 I certainly after, yeah, uh, after civil war and then in the, in 20th century, uh, FDR, there has been a tendency of homogenization from, from, through technology.
00:39:41.380 I think you're right about that though.
00:39:43.780 I, I, you can still experience the, um, some of it with that, within the, I think another element is, is, uh, mass movement.
00:39:53.640 And so a lot of people like myself have moved North Carolina and, uh, and Colorado and other places, um, from, from the Northeast and from, from the West, which is sort of diluting.
00:40:04.760 I, I can tell within my own neighborhood in a way, many people are actually from somewhere else and you can see how the, the very local, uh, identity of central North Carolina can be diluted, um, because of everyone's kind of from somewhere else.
00:40:19.040 And they've, and what do you do your commonalities in this broad kind of national culture rather than a local regional culture.
00:40:26.240 So that, that is certainly the case.
00:40:28.240 Um, and, uh, I, I don't know how to, how to fix all that, but I, but at least within my realm, which is kind of the realm of ideas, but I've tried to emphasize to people is that we do need to actually restore a sense of similarity.
00:40:41.840 And togetherness, um, along cultural lines, and those are worth preserving.
00:40:47.840 Um, and, uh, and we were under basically under assault from mass migration, from the things you mentioned already to lose our various, um, regional, local, and even national identity.
00:40:59.760 There's no demand for assimilation for newcomers.
00:41:02.960 It's just, uh, it's a matter of GDP and economic growth.
00:41:05.880 That's all anyone ever cares about because after all, we are just an economic zone and all those things need to be reasserted.
00:41:12.820 And so within my little world of, I guess, of the new right, I've tried to emphasize among Christians, actually, you do not need to adopt, um, I guess to go full circle here.
00:41:22.920 We do not need to adopt this universalistic theology that comes to impact politics and essentially like conform ourselves.
00:41:30.920 We, we do not need to conform ourselves to the spirit of the age and the spirit of an age is to universalize everything into this sort of bare humanity.
00:41:40.160 Um, but actually to love your neighbor, to love your neighbor is actually to seek the sort of community that is, um, sufficiently homogenous in culture where we can understand each other, have common social expectations, common traditions that we can actually correct one another because we have a common basis of values and morals.
00:41:59.660 And we're, we're, we're not just atomized individuals kind of floating out in the social sea, but we're actually, uh, people, uh, united with one another, uh, in a, in a, a common way of life.
00:42:11.840 And that's good.
00:42:12.900 We need that.
00:42:13.740 That's what we are.
00:42:14.380 That's how God created us.
00:42:16.480 And that all of that is under assault.
00:42:18.600 So, yeah, anyway, that's what, um, yeah, it's, it's hard to know like where to go forward,
00:42:25.360 given the, the various, uh, significant changes in our country, but we, at least at first have to get our ideas, right.
00:42:33.140 And I think there's a lot of danger, like damaging ideas that, that many evangelicals and Christians have adopted.
00:42:40.520 So, Stephen, are you telling me that there's a middle ground between, uh, you know, complete white ethno state and recognizing that nations are different and peoples are different,
00:42:51.360 and it's okay to have differences and you can find the things that you share and bond over them without like completely obliterating the like particular aspects of those cultures and those peoples.
00:43:02.260 Yeah, absolutely.
00:43:03.840 But again, it's, it's anti, this is not, um, this is not me trying to be a sort of nuanced bro.
00:43:11.340 Who's trying to get away from a type of white nationalism or white ethno state.
00:43:14.980 Um, I just, as I reflect upon experience and I won't repeat it all, but you've heard it already, I, I just can't see how these people who have different ancestry than me, who are basically me, um, for the most part are to be excluded in the future.
00:43:32.380 Um, that being said, there are a lot of people to exclude.
00:43:35.740 So this is Christian nationalism.
00:43:38.240 And so I think you can make the deduction there.
00:43:40.940 Um, but, uh, so anyway, but that's the.
00:43:44.500 Um, yeah, so there, I, I think there is a sort of middle position, a moderating position that still would label you with all the labels you can think of from the left.
00:43:55.060 Um, and yet I think it's, it's more attuned to reality itself and the, the way we live in the world.
00:44:01.780 Um, the, the way that we can acknowledge art of, you know, uh, you know, accidental difference versus more essential ones in social life that we just do every day.
00:44:10.300 Um, but that being said, I do think that we, as a Anglo-Protestant country, there is an Anglo-Protestant culture, political, all that stuff, as I mentioned, that is the core of what America is.
00:44:21.960 It is the core of what of America, what America is.
00:44:24.480 Many Roman Catholics who are obviously not Protestant have, I would say, Protestantized in their, in their various, in their thinking and have very much conformed to that Anglo-Protestant mindset.
00:44:37.320 And we, we, everyone has seen that video of Scalia acknowledging that we are, you know, not a Roman Catholic, we're actually a, this, this English Protestant country.
00:44:46.560 And, uh, and those are the sorts of things that we, we should demand people assimilate to that.
00:44:52.640 Um, and that to be fully American, dare I say, to be fully American is to be a Christian committed to assimilating at the very least into that, um, Anglo-Protestant project. 0.82
00:45:03.880 And it, it, it, it's silly to, to think that conversion itself is going to, going to bring that about, uh, people are going to remain, they're going to retain the customs, even in the third or fourth generation of the places that they came from.
00:45:17.200 It keeps, it takes a concerted effort, um, in order to conform, um, to the place around you.
00:45:22.120 I have tried as a Californian in the South to become more Southerner.
00:45:26.140 I will never be a Southerner just because it's impossible for someone to do something like that.
00:45:31.840 But I hope that my, my children and grandchildren identify as Southerners and have, uh, have that culture.
00:45:38.760 So, um, yeah, that, that's, uh, well, if you're one of the good ones, we won't run you out.
00:45:44.500 You know, I try to be the good one.
00:45:46.400 I try to keep some, we keep some of the good ones.
00:45:48.400 Um, but, uh, yeah, I think that's critical.
00:45:51.020 And like, I've, I've said the same thing from a different angle.
00:45:53.720 I always use Samuel Huntington and who are we, because I feel like he's a pretty moderate and
00:45:58.440 well-respected guy who wrote a relatively gutsy book on, on American identity.
00:46:03.500 And he said, came to the same conclusion you have, look, we're an Anglo Protestant country
00:46:07.180 and that's what people have to assimilate to.
00:46:09.720 If you don't have a unified over culture, then there is no such thing as assimilation.
00:46:14.380 You just have this multicultural chaos. 1.00
00:46:16.500 And so in, in order to assimilate, you have to identify it.
00:46:19.560 You can't just say, oh, well, whatever Americanism happens to be, no, it is this Anglo Protestant 0.87
00:46:24.220 understanding.
00:46:25.260 And that doesn't mean you have to come here as an Anglo or Protestant, though you should
00:46:28.760 become a Protestant.
00:46:29.660 Uh, but when, you know, uh, you, when you're here, you do have to conform to those norms.
00:46:34.180 And he points out Catholic and Jewish communities that have become much more Anglo Protestant in
00:46:39.700 their nature, even though they retain some of these, uh, classic understandings from, uh, their
00:46:44.220 older life.
00:46:44.740 And the big thing you've pointed to several times, and this is something I want conservatives
00:46:48.860 to grasp to assimilation is generational.
00:46:52.780 Okay.
00:46:53.400 And, and, and really, uh, you know, if I had the magic wand tomorrow, uh, no one would receive
00:46:58.660 the franchise until their family has been here three or four generations.
00:47:02.880 And that's it.
00:47:03.900 Like that, that, that's a very simple fix that allows the time to heal.
00:47:07.800 People don't immediately get the benefits.
00:47:09.000 They don't immediately get to say, you need to invest in this country.
00:47:11.720 Your children need to invest in this country.
00:47:13.220 Your grandchildren need to invest in this country.
00:47:15.840 And once you've done that, you've lived in this place, you have been a part of this culture.
00:47:20.380 You have assimilated to this.
00:47:21.980 Then you're, you know, your great, great grandchildren might have the benefit of your actions.
00:47:27.260 And that's, that's really, I think what brings true assimilation. 0.88
00:47:30.340 And I think if we, if we completely closed the borders, got rid of as many illegal immigrants 1.00
00:47:36.240 as we could, then we have the opportunity to then create that environment where there's
00:47:41.680 the chance for true assimilation over generations, because we're not just continually adding to
00:47:46.080 this flood of multiculturalism that never actually conforms to that ideal.
00:47:51.300 That is going to be the American culture.
00:47:53.340 Yeah.
00:47:53.540 And I would say to conservatives, conservatives have largely probably through the influence
00:47:58.240 of Fox news and, and other, other means of talk radio, have adopted the universalistic
00:48:02.640 mindset that the American way of life is simply the true good and beautiful only way of life.
00:48:07.860 And, and they think, well, you, you show up in it and suddenly you adopt it, or they have
00:48:14.620 this sense that actually this country is supposed to be multicultural, multi-ethnic.
00:48:18.960 It's not actually tied to a certain ethnos.
00:48:21.120 It's not tied to a particular tradition that developed.
00:48:25.240 I would, I would just, you know, encourage to use evangelical speak.
00:48:29.880 I would encourage the, the, the conservatives to treat the American culture as something that
00:48:35.800 is, that is largely particular, that is actually largely a, a, a, an outgrowth of a tradition
00:48:42.020 that people are not going to readily adopt simply by stepping foot on, on the country,
00:48:47.500 in the country, um, that it is something that is particular people have to come into.
00:48:52.640 It's not, it's not the affirmation of certain print or certain ideas.
00:48:56.820 Um, it is actually making your way of life, your being in the world as an American.
00:49:02.240 And so that has to be emphasized, it has to be understood as a particular way of life.
00:49:07.440 It's not simply universal.
00:49:09.440 It's not even just yours.
00:49:11.600 It's the core of what makes the country distinct and different from other countries.
00:49:17.040 And if we're going to retain that difference, if we're going to retain the sort of, um,
00:49:21.760 mentality and, and, and the way of life that has been here for generations and has generally
00:49:27.680 worked out for people, then you have to retain that.
00:49:30.400 And, uh, and the fact is like when people come from countries that are, that what you
00:49:36.480 would say are what we would say are socialistic and informed in a way, if it's a country that
00:49:41.520 has high fraud, if it's the countries that have all the sorts of things that we do not
00:49:45.280 want in this country, we have to keep in mind that most likely those people who come here 1.00
00:49:50.160 are going to re are going to retain the many of those sentiments as well.
00:49:54.400 And that is one reason why a lot of immigrants, there's many reasons, but one reason why a lot
00:49:58.320 of immigrants vote for the democratic party, which wants to push more socialistic programs.
00:50:02.640 Also there's, there's ethnic loyalties and the democratic party certainly plays into
00:50:06.960 ethnic loyalties very explicitly.
00:50:09.840 And so the more, the more sort of foreigners we bring in, um, one, it's going to be harder 1.00
00:50:14.800 to assimilate them all.
00:50:16.000 And at the same time, they're going to retain the various values from which they came.
00:50:19.520 So, uh, we have to keep that in mind, uh, uh, we're, we're not going to bring about the sort
00:50:24.880 of policies that we want within the conservative world, um, by importing these family values,
00:50:31.840 immigrants, that's not going to work when people get here, they tend to care about their material 1.00
00:50:37.120 wellbeing.
00:50:37.760 They tend to care about the economic side of things and also what sort of benefits they
00:50:41.280 can receive from the government, because after all, that's what they got at their home country.
00:50:45.200 Um, and so that's going to continue unless there's assimilation into the spirit of self-government,
00:50:51.440 self-reliance, a sort of American individualism.
00:50:54.960 And, uh, and that won't happen under mass immigration.
00:50:57.360 So I, I agree with what you said before.
00:50:59.040 Yeah.
00:50:59.280 You have to, there has to be re-migration and the, the adopt of a, uh, adopting a, a, a confident,
00:51:08.080 a confident angle, Protestant ethos that will then demand those around you to essentially
00:51:13.760 conform to the way of life of, uh, of America's agreed.
00:51:18.160 All right.
00:51:18.480 Well, we're going to go ahead and wrap this one up today, but it's been a pleasure talking
00:51:22.400 to you, Steven.
00:51:23.120 If people want to find your work, where can they find it?
00:51:26.800 Uh, let's see.
00:51:27.520 Well, I've, uh, so the book case for Christian nationalism, that's kind of the book.
00:51:31.360 Um, you know, I'm on Twitter.
00:51:33.120 You can find me on Twitter, Steven Wolf, uh, find me on there and, uh, yeah, we've written
00:51:37.600 other things too, but that's, those are the main two places.
00:51:41.520 Sorry, guys.
00:51:42.000 I should have said earlier, I'll put it in the chat as well.
00:51:44.000 This one is pre-taped, so we won't be able to go over your super chats today.
00:51:47.760 So if you do want to send one out, I appreciate it, but won't be able to answer it live, obviously
00:51:52.960 today, but thank you so much.
00:51:54.560 Thank you, Steven, for coming on.
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00:52:19.520 Thank you, everybody, for watching.
00:52:20.640 And as always, I'll talk to you next time.