The Auron MacIntyre Show - Does Liberalism Dissolve Societies？｜ Guest： Carl Benjamin

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00:00:30.000 Hey, everybody. How's it going?

00:00:32.300 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:34.360 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:38.860 So I saw Carl Benjamin post a really interesting post over on Twitter about liberalism, classical liberalism,

00:00:46.700 some of the challenges that it faces and some of the adjustments it has to make if it wants to survive.

00:00:51.760 And I thought it was really fascinating.

00:00:53.440 I thought it would be great to bring him on.

00:00:55.060 Carl's, of course, the head of the Lotus Eaters.

00:00:56.920 If for some reason you are not checking out all of that content, you most assuredly should.

00:01:01.860 Carl, thanks for joining me.

00:01:03.280 Anytime, man. It's a real pleasure to be here.

00:01:05.700 Absolutely.

00:01:06.100 So I saw this post and I definitely wanted to have this conversation because it kind of opens up all kinds of different stuff that I've been talking about,

00:01:14.240 but things that I've noticed that you have been exploring and I think really tie into a lot of the kind of zeitgeist around a lot of political movements that we saw online throughout the years.

00:01:24.780 Now kind of arriving at a conclusion that scares some worries others, many are not sure how to address this.

00:01:31.000 So we'll just go ahead and dive right into it.

00:01:33.880 Your post talked about kind of the problems that classical liberalism faces, that it made some assumptions that a lot of people have forgotten about.

00:01:43.000 And now those things leave it vulnerable to some real problems.

00:01:46.260 What are some of those issues that you're talking about with classical liberalism?

00:01:50.780 Well, I think the one that is at the very bottom, that it is difficult for an atheist such as myself to admit,

00:01:59.800 is that it was always presupposed by the classical liberals, say Locke and the cohort around that sort of time, late 17th century, early 18th century,

00:02:09.480 is that they would be Christians.

00:02:10.920 Christians, that was always presupposed, and therefore you get a Christian social morality as a substratum to the very notion of classical liberalism.

00:02:21.860 And this made classical liberalism work in its own day, and for many, many years afterwards, obviously,

00:02:30.640 because it really is a form of kind of game theory against the state.

00:02:35.060 It's a legalistic doctrine that only has a very narrow focus on what areas of life that it should actually have any control over,

00:02:46.120 any influence over.

00:02:47.480 And it made sense.

00:02:48.640 It makes sense to have a doctrine of rights, natural rights, when dealing with the government,

00:02:53.680 because it's not just that you as an individual benefit from that.

00:02:57.380 Everyone will benefit from a general softening of the hard edge of state power,

00:03:05.260 because if the people in charge also believe in a doctrine of natural rights that is underpinned by God,

00:03:11.440 then you have a much more stable society that is less prone to political purges, to the confiscation of property.

00:03:19.940 It's much more amenable to liberal ideals.

00:03:23.560 And honestly, I think there have been many people who have said this over the years,

00:03:29.400 but the idea that classical liberalism is kind of an extraction of the Christian English tradition,

00:03:34.700 political tradition, and just a codification of it, and that's why it works,

00:03:38.300 I am genuinely at the point where I think that that's probably true.

00:03:41.100 And without the underpinning of what we can just broadly term conservatism,

00:03:48.460 the liberal tradition becomes what has been known in academic circles as comprehensive liberalism.

00:03:55.120 And that's liberalism applied to every aspect of life,

00:03:58.220 where the only moral factor is whether a person consents to the social contract or not.

00:04:03.380 And you can imagine what applying a doctrine of consent does to all of those things in our lives

00:04:09.560 that we didn't actually consent to, but still consider to be a public good,

00:04:14.400 such as being born, such as having a family, such as having a country.

00:04:18.740 All of these things are things that we inherited or gifted without anyone asking us

00:04:25.180 whether these were right or wrong and whether we wanted them.

00:04:27.780 And we are habituated and raised into them, and they are good things,

00:04:31.960 but they're not liberal things.

00:04:34.420 And so if you apply a comprehensive view of liberalism to all things in life,

00:04:38.140 you get a universal acid that eats away at every social institution imaginable.

00:04:43.520 And I think that's happened, and I think that's where we are now.

00:04:47.500 Yeah, obviously, I'm in agreement with that.

00:04:49.680 And there's a lot of different parts of that that we probably want to unpack.

00:04:53.620 But let's just go ahead and start at the beginning.

00:04:55.820 Like you said, a lot of this seems really rational to a bunch of people

00:04:58.580 who are kind of obsessed with contract law,

00:05:00.600 because there's this substrate of Christianity,

00:05:04.480 particularly in America and other places,

00:05:09.280 kind of a Protestant Christian substrate that everything kind of arises out of.

00:05:13.920 And there's these assumptions we can make.

00:05:15.700 We can liberalize some of these interactions in the public square

00:05:20.280 because we know at the end of the day,

00:05:21.580 people will still be bound by these other social spheres in really important ways.

00:05:26.540 And in fact, the American founders were really clear about this.

00:05:29.800 You have people like John Adams saying,

00:05:31.940 the Constitution is only good for governing immoral and religious people.

00:05:36.920 It's not good for anybody else.

00:05:38.280 So they weren't unaware of this issue.

00:05:40.840 This is not something that we've just reverse engineered and discovered.

00:05:44.500 This is something that many of the people enacting what was happening there

00:05:47.480 understood kind of as a foundational necessity for liberalism going forward.

00:05:52.640 What do you think it is, though,

00:05:54.840 that allowed this to kind of break free of that base understanding,

00:06:00.160 this understanding that this has to be part of this?

00:06:03.500 Why do people feel that they were able to expand the sphere of liberalism

00:06:07.240 in a way that would eventually kind of erode that basis of Christian consensus?

00:06:11.680 That's a really good question.

00:06:13.820 And there's probably no one route to it.

00:06:16.700 But incidentally, I was reading this just before the stream,

00:06:21.260 which if you can't see, is just an overview by a chap called Jonathan Darcy

00:06:25.080 of Berkeley's contentions with Locke.

00:06:28.500 And he had many contentions with Locke because Locke was what we could call

00:06:31.460 an empiricist realist and Berkeley was an idealist.

00:06:34.160 But Berkeley has a good point on one particular thing, in my opinion,

00:06:40.380 which is the role of God in both conceptions of the world.

00:06:45.220 And John Locke, just to be clear, was a deeply religious man.

00:06:48.340 He thought atheism should be made illegal.

00:06:50.300 He was that religious, right?

00:06:52.220 So it isn't that John Locke wanted atheism.

00:06:56.900 It's just, and I think this is a habit that many liberals have,

00:07:00.040 they're very optimistic.

00:07:01.120 Whereas you can get a slightly more cynical person like Berkeley.

00:07:04.400 And he says expressly that if you create a worldview in which the universe is mechanical,

00:07:12.580 so it's kind of like a clock and it's wound up by God and then just left to mechanically

00:07:18.680 operate on its own merits from that point onwards,

00:07:23.460 then you don't actually need God to be a part of your worldview.

00:07:27.900 And I think that is the general, the genuine sort of beginning of bifurcation into atheism.

00:07:34.480 Because if the universe is mechanical, all you need then is a doctrine that can replace

00:07:39.200 God as the prime mover.

00:07:40.980 And again, I just want to make it, I'm saying this as an atheist who has studied these things

00:07:45.040 and come to these conclusions.

00:07:46.720 I don't have an emotional need to drive to this point.

00:07:50.880 Because a lot of people say, well, Christians would say that,

00:07:53.480 or Muslims would say that, or whoever.

00:07:55.420 But I'm neither a Muslim nor a Christian, and I've never been,

00:07:58.860 and I don't have any animus against either of the religions really at base.

00:08:03.140 I'm just someone who has done the reading and has looked into it

00:08:07.620 with what I hope is a fairly impartial perspective,

00:08:12.860 and come to the conclusion, well, actually Berkeley is right on that.

00:08:16.480 Because, of course, we develop the doctrine of the Big Bang,

00:08:19.820 and I'm not challenging any of the science or anything like that.

00:08:21.900 I have no idea.

00:08:22.620 I'm not a scientist.

00:08:23.980 But what you can see philosophically is what happens is that easily replaces God,

00:08:28.680 or actually it kind of kicks the ball further down the field, or it kicks the can.

00:08:33.100 Because, of course, you know, well, what's the origin of that?

00:08:35.180 And we've got no answers.

00:08:36.120 But for the modern rational person, the rationalist person,

00:08:41.420 what that does is fully brings about Berkeley's prediction that, in fact,

00:08:47.960 we will have a mechanical universe that does not require God,

00:08:50.440 and therefore atheism will become predominant, and religion will die.

00:08:55.820 And how was he wrong?

00:08:59.500 That's the answer.

00:09:01.020 Yeah, I find that really interesting because, of course,

00:09:03.460 Carl Schmitt came to a similar conclusion when he talked about political theology.

00:09:08.080 He said that kind of the deism that was popular during kind of these liberal periods

00:09:14.620 was an attempt to remove God in many ways, you know, the removal of the miracle.

00:09:20.460 And so he tied the transition from monarchy to liberal democracy

00:09:24.560 to the same transition between the need for the miracle and the need for the mechanical universe,

00:09:29.640 that the removal of the executive and their ability to will things into existence

00:09:35.260 was also removal of kind of the power of God and his need for the divine intervention and the miraculous.

00:09:41.400 The state of exception gets removed, and instead you're governed by mechanisms and constitutions

00:09:45.920 rather than divine providence.

00:09:48.480 And that kind of slowly but surely kind of shifts people into a mindset of,

00:09:53.200 sure, maybe God's out there somewhere creating something,

00:09:55.820 but he's not really necessary for our day-to-day function.

00:09:58.160 We've rationally instituted a mechanism that will govern us objectively without the need

00:10:03.820 for kind of the divine wisdom, you know, imparted into a king or someone else.

00:10:08.460 And therefore, we are now able to kind of avoid this necessary miracle,

00:10:13.300 this necessary connection to the divine.

00:10:15.840 And even that on its own, I don't think is the worst thing that could have happened.

00:10:21.000 And the presuppositions that were put in place by deeply religious and Christian people

00:10:28.460 have carried on for generations through which people became atheists.

00:10:34.000 Like, literally, for the last, like, three or four generations, you can see religiosity on the decline.

00:10:39.800 And yet things still carried on, because at least the presuppositions of what it is to be a good and noble and decent person

00:10:46.000 and to have an orderly country to follow the laws, all of these assumptions were all at least baked into the culture.

00:10:53.160 But with the proliferation of this comprehensive liberalism that has gone through the educational system,

00:11:00.600 through academia, from academia, and now into the educational system as we see it,

00:11:05.340 we are now seeing generations of people who are simply not tethered to those religious presuppositions,

00:11:12.260 even though we haven't been religious for some time, right?

00:11:16.260 And so that's where it becomes a real problem, because at least before,

00:11:21.160 you had a kind of unspoken anchoring in a reality of the universe.

00:11:27.200 But now we've come to the point, well, actually, the universe, if it doesn't conform to our moral choices,

00:11:34.760 the choice of our free wills, then the universe itself is the thing that is wrong,

00:11:38.800 not the will that is fighting against creation.

00:11:42.640 And therefore, I was born in the wrong body.

00:11:45.020 Therefore, I was born in the wrong race.

00:11:46.800 Therefore, you get all of these sorts of movements that are striving against the natural order.

00:11:53.040 And that's quite a big challenge to take on.

00:11:57.480 And it might actually be a lot easier if you come to peace with that which you are

00:12:01.620 and change your mind rather than change your body.

00:12:04.500 But I think it's all a bit late for that now, isn't it?

00:12:07.960 Do you think that healthy restrictions on the human can be removed from an investment in metaphysics?

00:12:18.160 Sorry, healthy restrictions on...

00:12:22.600 Sorry, go on.

00:12:23.900 Do you think that people are able to self-regulate from individuation and liberation

00:12:30.860 if they are not invested in an idea that the hierarchies around them naturally established

00:12:37.620 are somehow based on something transcendent and metaphysical?

00:12:41.160 I think, yes, that is possible because you could have a very practical and down-to-earth view of the world.

00:12:52.980 Honestly, a rather English view of the world that isn't really very metaphysical

00:12:57.400 but is based in real-world practicality that is just a bit unthinking but realistic

00:13:06.460 and would say, look, you're obviously a boy, you're obviously a girl, you need to do this, you need to do that.

00:13:10.560 And you don't necessarily have to have a dogmatic transcendent view.

00:13:16.160 However, there are other things that come along with that

00:13:20.480 because then you do have, again, another valid argument

00:13:25.040 against what essentially just collapses into utilitarianism

00:13:29.200 which is, well, why wouldn't you just live at the level of an animal then?

00:13:33.860 And of course you had the Epicureans through to Mill saying,

00:13:38.580 well, surely the argument will go that the finer things in life are above animals to the intellectual pleasures

00:13:46.320 and so people will naturally strive towards them

00:13:48.720 to which we can look around at modern culture and say that's clearly not happened.

00:13:53.500 That was clearly wrong.

00:13:55.760 People aren't striving for anything and we're in a clear decline at this point.

00:13:59.240 So that argument I don't believe holds up

00:14:02.880 even though conceivably it could have done

00:14:05.980 but no, I do find myself having difficulty refuting the point

00:14:13.240 that actually having a higher ideal to strive for

00:14:17.160 might actually be genuinely healthy for mankind.

00:14:19.860 Yeah, I would say beyond just healthy

00:14:23.640 like absolutely necessary for kind of one to order themselves

00:14:27.960 and orient themselves kind of towards something like that

00:14:30.900 but let's get back to comprehensive liberalism before we go too deep

00:14:34.680 let's define our terms before we kind of go a little too deep here

00:14:37.300 you noted the difference here between classical and comprehensive liberalism

00:14:41.900 what is that practical difference

00:14:44.720 and can we really keep one from transitioning into the other?

00:14:51.480 Well, right, to answer the second question

00:14:53.620 no, I don't believe you can actually

00:14:55.560 unless you have a strong religious doctrine

00:14:58.540 that underpins your liberalism

00:15:00.640 I don't believe

00:15:01.740 so the classical liberal position

00:15:03.820 is

00:15:05.860 in the 20th century

00:15:07.860 most well represented in academia by Rawls

00:15:10.120 the Rawlsian political liberal

00:15:12.240 says well liberalism is purely a political doctrine

00:15:14.440 and therefore

00:15:15.120 if the act that we're talking about

00:15:19.400 such as female gentle mutilation or something

00:15:21.600 if that is illiberal

00:15:23.180 then we can make arguments to ban it

00:15:25.880 but the thing is

00:15:26.500 the same arguments therefore go further

00:15:28.500 and a comprehensive liberal would say

00:15:31.000 well, why do we stop at any one particular point?

00:15:35.020 you may have an inherited narrow band of things

00:15:38.440 that liberalism should consider

00:15:40.260 but why should liberalism therefore permit, say, a nunnery to exist

00:15:44.780 where you have a set of illiberal rules

00:15:47.420 that a person consents to

00:15:48.700 going into the nunnery

00:15:49.760 but then has illiberal practices imposed upon them

00:15:54.520 or a person might willingly choose

00:15:56.760 to have female gentle mutilation

00:15:58.480 in order to take part in a particular community

00:16:01.040 that requires that for membership

00:16:03.080 in order to gain the other benefits of being in that community

00:16:06.580 and the political liberal would say

00:16:08.500 well, it's just because it's outside of the purview of the state

00:16:10.900 that person's made an informed choice to join the convent

00:16:13.140 to get female gentle mutilation

00:16:14.780 and therefore it's not my issue

00:16:16.180 but there's a definite moral hole there

00:16:20.380 because people will be looking at

00:16:23.020 whatever illiberal practice they can see going on

00:16:25.620 and say, well look, I don't really agree with that

00:16:27.400 and in fact it isn't so much that

00:16:30.060 that should be permitted to happen

00:16:31.600 in fact I don't think that should be permitted to happen

00:16:33.300 but also maybe we should start interrogating

00:16:35.540 the formation of the beliefs that led to

00:16:38.940 that being the choice that that person would make

00:16:42.040 so the question of informed consent actually becomes

00:16:44.860 well, actually illiberal institutions formed the desire

00:16:48.540 for that person to go into that social institution

00:16:52.460 and therefore they didn't really consent to it

00:16:56.340 and so the comprehensive liberal starts challenging

00:16:58.860 absolutely everything that they do in their life

00:17:01.820 and of course there isn't any social institution in the world

00:17:04.900 that can withstand non-stop constant critiquing

00:17:08.060 of everything you were asked to do

00:17:09.560 because at some point you're going to be asked to do

00:17:11.080 something you don't want to do

00:17:12.060 and then the social institution breaks down

00:17:14.080 so yeah, I don't think actually

00:17:17.060 without a, what again I'm just going to broadly call

00:17:22.240 a conservative, a very firm conservative base

00:17:26.060 liberalism can prevent itself from bleeding

00:17:28.620 into comprehensive liberalism

00:17:30.560 because when you have a strong conservative religious base

00:17:35.020 you have a suite of moral values that are important

00:17:38.980 these things matter all the time

00:17:41.160 and you are weighing up these values

00:17:43.440 with the liberal values which conflict

00:17:44.980 well if you take these away

00:17:46.040 then you are left only with the liberal values

00:17:48.560 of consent, liberty and equality

00:17:50.240 and all of those can be used to liquidate any institution

00:17:54.140 in fact that's kind of what Rawls relies on entirely

00:17:57.600 right, completely removing the person

00:17:59.880 in the original position from any tradition

00:18:02.300 from any tie, from any standard or boundary

00:18:05.520 and then yes, anything of course can

00:18:08.080 and this is why I think, you know

00:18:09.660 Alistair MacIntyre makes a great point

00:18:11.440 in After Virtue about how basically

00:18:13.520 liberalism had to abandon any kind of attempt

00:18:15.540 to actually rationally determine

00:18:17.320 comprehensive morality

00:18:19.320 and basically has to default to utility

00:18:21.560 there's no other option

00:18:22.740 because they've completely freed themselves

00:18:26.280 from any ability to have a shared moral language

00:18:29.340 around which you could then build

00:18:32.000 anything of significance

00:18:33.600 and so the only thing left to do

00:18:35.180 is kind of say

00:18:35.820 well have you consented to this

00:18:37.120 and what leverages the best for the most

00:18:39.120 who happened to consent in that way

00:18:41.820 and so I think it is a situation

00:18:44.060 in which if you liberate people from this

00:18:47.440 if you make sure that you remove them

00:18:49.280 from any way to like bind that

00:18:51.560 definition and bind that language

00:18:53.480 around kind of a common vision of the good

00:18:55.780 then there's really just no argument to be had

00:18:58.340 like you said

00:18:59.340 everything simply becomes

00:19:00.600 subject to this acid

00:19:02.160 in which it's like

00:19:03.000 okay well did you sign up for this

00:19:04.660 are you bound to this

00:19:05.540 and a big part of this

00:19:07.140 which we haven't touched on yet

00:19:09.040 but I think is essential here

00:19:10.200 increasingly we have the technology

00:19:11.960 to liberate people from all of these bonds

00:19:14.480 that didn't exist beforehand

00:19:16.000 yeah you might in theory

00:19:17.840 have not consented to your family

00:19:19.340 but that didn't matter before

00:19:20.420 because you die

00:19:21.440 if you didn't follow the rules

00:19:23.160 but now the state will come

00:19:24.760 and pick you up

00:19:25.480 you know that you

00:19:26.120 you no longer have to be bound

00:19:27.500 by your parents

00:19:28.500 you're no longer completely dependent

00:19:29.840 on your church

00:19:30.920 or your community

00:19:31.760 or your tribe

00:19:32.460 for your continuation

00:19:33.340 you can just wait

00:19:34.860 for the Leviathan state

00:19:35.820 to come along

00:19:36.460 and fill those holes for you

00:19:38.500 and so now

00:19:39.580 there's a whole nother level of this

00:19:41.580 that did not exist previously

00:19:43.340 when these institutions

00:19:44.880 were more robust

00:19:45.740 yeah this is really concerning actually

00:19:49.940 because it not

00:19:51.380 not only does the comprehensive liberal position

00:19:53.660 attack the social institutions

00:19:55.620 it ends up attacking the human body itself

00:19:59.000 the drive towards

00:20:01.340 and this is something that both

00:20:02.720 Julius Evola and C.S. Lewis

00:20:04.280 both picked up on

00:20:05.280 is there's got to be a kind of science

00:20:07.860 that doesn't end up

00:20:09.060 with the desire to remake

00:20:10.760 the human being itself

00:20:12.160 right

00:20:12.720 because the

00:20:13.940 through

00:20:14.740 what we can just call

00:20:16.100 the liberal lens

00:20:16.920 science ends up

00:20:18.260 redirecting its own

00:20:21.320 point of focus

00:20:23.160 onto the human body

00:20:24.720 and saying

00:20:25.020 well hang on a second

00:20:25.680 this person didn't choose

00:20:26.600 to be born a man

00:20:27.300 they want to give birth

00:20:28.940 well we need

00:20:30.140 to modify the human body now

00:20:32.040 now the human body

00:20:33.200 is up for debate

00:20:34.320 now the human organism

00:20:36.080 the very nature of what it is

00:20:37.600 well men

00:20:38.620 I mean it's going to come

00:20:40.040 where there are going to be

00:20:40.920 implanted wombs

00:20:42.080 at some point

00:20:42.740 so men can give birth

00:20:43.660 it's going to happen

00:20:45.000 because science is desperate

00:20:46.660 for it to happen

00:20:47.560 to fulfill

00:20:48.480 the fantasies

00:20:50.560 of a very very small number of people

00:20:52.680 and

00:20:53.660 this seems to me

00:20:55.420 to be kind of grotesque

00:20:56.660 actually

00:20:57.140 it's

00:20:58.500 I mean

00:20:59.880 I'm

00:21:00.620 so far off of this reservation

00:21:02.980 at this point

00:21:03.800 that I

00:21:05.100 I've found myself

00:21:06.400 just

00:21:07.120 returning to a very basic

00:21:08.740 scheme of

00:21:09.780 Aristotelian virtue ethics

00:21:11.480 or am I right

00:21:12.280 what is it just to be a good human

00:21:13.680 to live a good life

00:21:14.800 to have human flourishing

00:21:15.800 to just

00:21:16.560 be

00:21:17.680 you know

00:21:18.400 be a good person

00:21:19.880 and do the right thing

00:21:20.860 you know

00:21:21.280 I'm

00:21:21.820 I can see where

00:21:23.740 liberalism is going

00:21:24.840 and I'm like

00:21:25.140 no I'm just

00:21:25.560 I'm just going to be

00:21:26.620 thousands of years

00:21:27.580 before that

00:21:28.160 just start

00:21:28.780 start back at the beginning

00:21:30.000 of what it is to be a good person

00:21:31.180 you know

00:21:31.920 we hope you're enjoying

00:21:33.300 your Air Canada flight

00:21:34.400 Rocky's vacation

00:21:35.560 here we come

00:21:36.800 whoa

00:21:37.740 is this economy

00:21:38.960 free beer

00:21:39.980 wine

00:21:40.500 and snacks

00:21:41.400 sweet

00:21:42.500 fast free wifi

00:21:43.860 means I can make dinner reservations

00:21:45.400 before we land

00:21:46.620 and with live TV

00:21:48.120 I'm not missing the game

00:21:49.660 it's kind of like

00:21:50.860 I'm already on vacation

00:21:52.540 nice

00:21:53.980 but again

00:22:03.140 the key for that

00:22:03.960 and I think that

00:22:04.500 this is the problem

00:22:05.420 of what liberalism has done

00:22:06.640 the key to Aristotelian virtue

00:22:08.100 is that it exists

00:22:09.540 inside a community

00:22:10.480 it exists

00:22:11.460 inside these institutions

00:22:13.000 that are going to define

00:22:14.920 who you are

00:22:15.740 it's going to

00:22:16.580 orient you

00:22:17.380 towards a vision

00:22:18.220 of the good

00:22:18.840 and liberalism

00:22:20.240 has eradicated

00:22:21.460 those

00:22:22.220 you no longer have

00:22:23.880 these small communities

00:22:25.440 in which you can be defined

00:22:27.140 by your social bonds

00:22:28.720 that you're

00:22:29.200 who you are

00:22:30.160 to these people

00:22:30.900 or at least

00:22:31.400 I know they're not

00:22:32.100 completely eliminated

00:22:32.860 but they're doing their very best

00:22:34.140 to make that the case

00:22:35.360 they certainly are

00:22:36.620 I would definitely say

00:22:37.520 that's too strong

00:22:38.140 communities do still exist

00:22:39.900 real communities do still exist

00:22:41.400 and I think the institution

00:22:42.920 of the family

00:22:43.520 is the place to begin

00:22:45.140 there obviously

00:22:46.160 as a husband

00:22:47.700 and father myself

00:22:48.620 I find myself

00:22:50.120 spending a lot of time

00:22:51.060 just thinking about

00:22:51.960 how to be a dad

00:22:53.120 what's the best

00:22:54.500 that I can do

00:22:55.140 and yeah

00:22:56.360 investing yourself

00:22:57.720 in your local community

00:22:58.860 going

00:22:59.100 I mean in England

00:22:59.800 it's not too bad

00:23:00.480 you can go down

00:23:00.880 to the local pub

00:23:01.640 and you can still

00:23:03.440 engage with people

00:23:04.780 in real life

00:23:05.360 now

00:23:05.940 I'm 43

00:23:07.520 so maybe it's because

00:23:08.860 of my station in life

00:23:09.940 that that's possible

00:23:10.740 if you are some

00:23:11.960 21 year old zoomer

00:23:13.180 who has no idea

00:23:14.340 what a pub is

00:23:15.360 and has community

00:23:17.480 only in online groups

00:23:19.140 well

00:23:20.280 it's a different thing

00:23:21.700 but

00:23:22.500 and I'm not saying

00:23:25.080 have an answer

00:23:25.620 for that either

00:23:26.400 but it's not gone

00:23:28.020 completely

00:23:28.480 but you are right

00:23:29.640 that it's under siege

00:23:30.820 and it is being attacked

00:23:32.340 and the universal acid

00:23:33.860 is working its way in

00:23:35.320 and it's something

00:23:36.280 we have to be conscious of

00:23:37.840 if nothing else

00:23:38.860 now it's interesting

00:23:41.100 because you shot me

00:23:41.940 a tweet here

00:23:44.540 right before we got started

00:23:45.800 because you'd already

00:23:47.040 talked about

00:23:47.560 kind of how

00:23:48.140 you wanted to address

00:23:49.560 this a little bit

00:23:50.520 to kind of the conceit

00:23:51.440 of the new atheism movement

00:23:52.640 but you were sending me

00:23:54.140 a tweet from

00:23:54.760 from a new atheist

00:23:55.540 and they came to a conclusion

00:23:57.080 that you've talked about

00:23:59.700 I've talked about

00:24:00.680 a lot of people

00:24:01.460 in our sphere

00:24:02.060 have talked about

00:24:02.920 it's not unpopular now

00:24:05.200 for people to understand

00:24:06.100 that wokeness is a religion

00:24:07.480 that it's connected

00:24:08.260 to these things

00:24:08.940 that it's filling the hole

00:24:10.240 left by you know

00:24:11.680 a lack of God

00:24:12.800 or an understanding

00:24:13.820 of divine

00:24:14.600 and he's raging on

00:24:16.800 right

00:24:17.020 he's raging on saying

00:24:18.040 well how could the plebs

00:24:19.500 you know

00:24:20.400 have fallen for this

00:24:21.880 you know

00:24:22.100 we gave them the answer

00:24:23.200 Prometheus delivered fire

00:24:24.600 unto them

00:24:25.120 and they were kind of

00:24:25.740 returned

00:24:26.260 back to their squalor

00:24:28.200 so can I

00:24:29.480 can I speak

00:24:30.020 somewhat in defense

00:24:31.200 I'm just going to get

00:24:31.680 the tweet up

00:24:32.260 because I know

00:24:34.460 who this is

00:24:35.180 this is David Silverman

00:24:36.880 the president of

00:24:38.340 Atheists for Liberty

00:24:39.020 he's a Republican atheist

00:24:40.640 and years ago

00:24:42.940 he

00:24:43.540 I essentially became

00:24:45.100 friends with him

00:24:45.660 because I was like

00:24:47.140 well look

00:24:47.580 all of this woke

00:24:48.680 SJW nonsense

00:24:49.860 not exactly very liberal

00:24:52.160 is it

00:24:52.540 we should probably

00:24:53.580 not be going down

00:24:54.260 this road

00:24:54.760 and he

00:24:56.280 got

00:24:57.180 hit with me

00:24:58.100 to allegations

00:24:58.720 which were obviously

00:24:59.440 spurious

00:24:59.940 and

00:25:01.300 became

00:25:02.000 came over

00:25:03.760 much more to our

00:25:04.660 side of the fence

00:25:05.480 and I do think

00:25:07.060 that his tweet

00:25:08.140 is a reflection

00:25:09.340 of that journey

00:25:10.220 that he personally

00:25:10.980 has been on

00:25:11.620 as well

00:25:12.200 so it's

00:25:13.900 it's not that

00:25:14.820 sorry I'm just

00:25:15.680 trying to get the tweet up

00:25:16.760 I can bring it up

00:25:18.300 if you'd like here

00:25:19.040 right yeah

00:25:20.760 so it's not that

00:25:22.040 I don't think he's

00:25:23.860 saying this with arrogance

00:25:24.800 and actually I think

00:25:26.480 there's a

00:25:26.860 quite a lot of humility

00:25:28.240 in this

00:25:29.480 because I think

00:25:30.580 one of the things

00:25:31.180 that the atheists

00:25:32.020 forgot

00:25:32.740 and

00:25:34.200 this I think

00:25:35.080 is an important point

00:25:36.500 is that

00:25:37.080 they were all smart people

00:25:39.120 they're all genuinely smart people

00:25:40.920 and

00:25:41.940 they forgot

00:25:43.060 that actually

00:25:43.940 half of the population

00:25:45.200 are not smart

00:25:46.740 not even average

00:25:48.200 lower than average

00:25:49.700 in fact

00:25:50.340 which

00:25:51.140 meant

00:25:52.140 that in fact

00:25:53.080 as David

00:25:54.120 says here

00:25:55.120 the masses

00:25:58.160 yearns

00:25:58.580 to be told

00:25:59.300 what to think

00:26:00.180 not the freedom to learn

00:26:01.340 and do scepticism

00:26:02.420 that

00:26:04.060 is actually

00:26:04.920 a statement

00:26:05.700 that

00:26:06.080 contains

00:26:07.220 quite a few assumptions

00:26:09.060 and

00:26:09.880 really comes from

00:26:11.360 a position of privilege

00:26:12.200 doesn't it

00:26:12.780 because

00:26:14.040 I've

00:26:15.880 my family

00:26:16.980 are working class

00:26:17.660 I've

00:26:18.100 known

00:26:18.460 I've got lots of friends

00:26:19.340 and family who are working class

00:26:20.600 and I was lucky enough

00:26:22.020 to be

00:26:22.480 middle class

00:26:23.300 because my father

00:26:23.980 went to the RAF

00:26:24.760 but it was

00:26:27.380 it's evident that

00:26:28.400 when he says

00:26:29.440 it's not

00:26:29.900 it's what they

00:26:30.560 they yearn to be told

00:26:31.620 what to think

00:26:32.180 not the freedom to learn

00:26:33.040 and read and do scepticism

00:26:33.860 well

00:26:34.460 it's an uncomfortable thing

00:26:36.420 to think about

00:26:36.920 but

00:26:37.160 you have to have

00:26:38.260 a certain level of intelligence

00:26:39.580 to be able to grasp

00:26:40.800 certain arguments

00:26:41.680 and

00:26:42.600 if

00:26:43.080 you aren't

00:26:44.100 intelligent

00:26:44.640 then

00:26:45.700 it's not necessarily

00:26:46.980 that you yearn

00:26:47.960 to be told

00:26:48.500 what to think

00:26:49.240 it's that

00:26:50.540 David is assuming

00:26:52.540 that everyone is as smart

00:26:53.640 as he is

00:26:54.320 and there is

00:26:55.400 going to be a large segment

00:26:56.680 of the population

00:26:57.200 that just simply

00:26:57.880 isn't academically minded

00:26:59.320 they aren't

00:27:00.280 people who are

00:27:01.620 doing well

00:27:02.360 cognitively

00:27:03.300 but they may

00:27:03.820 you know

00:27:04.260 and when you say that

00:27:06.040 it makes it sound like

00:27:06.820 that person is somehow

00:27:07.640 inferior or a failure

00:27:08.960 or something like that

00:27:09.680 and that's not what I'm saying

00:27:10.640 I know lots of smart people

00:27:12.240 who are not good people

00:27:13.320 and I know lots of people

00:27:14.420 who are not smart people

00:27:15.500 who are good people

00:27:16.640 and are successful

00:27:17.440 through the use of their hands

00:27:19.380 through the use of doing

00:27:20.660 things that are

00:27:21.760 real and physical

00:27:22.940 and manual

00:27:23.580 and actually useful

00:27:24.620 to the world

00:27:25.320 so I don't want people

00:27:26.800 to think I'm

00:27:27.580 in any way pouring scorn

00:27:29.420 or anything like that

00:27:30.620 yeah I

00:27:31.260 sorry I just want to step in here

00:27:32.460 real quick to clarify

00:27:33.200 because I think it's important here

00:27:34.520 so I hear what you're saying

00:27:36.280 but most of the people

00:27:38.680 who were on the front lines

00:27:40.160 of adopting this

00:27:41.100 were the most learned people

00:27:43.700 the most academically minded people

00:27:46.360 the most quote unquote

00:27:47.740 skeptical people

00:27:49.180 they are the people

00:27:50.720 who were at the forefront

00:27:51.700 of falling for this

00:27:53.300 and the people who are arguably

00:27:54.460 most resistant

00:27:55.660 to this

00:27:57.100 were people who are not

00:27:58.820 those people

00:27:59.960 who were not academically gifted

00:28:02.460 who were not placed in this position

00:28:04.660 I don't think that people

00:28:06.360 are not intelligent enough

00:28:07.520 is really an explanation

00:28:09.340 for what happened here

00:28:10.480 no that's not what I'm trying to say

00:28:11.960 what I mean is

00:28:12.940 the people who are on the lower end

00:28:18.280 of the bell curve

00:28:18.980 are not inclined to read

00:28:20.720 and do skepticism

00:28:21.680 right

00:28:22.220 they're not actually very bothered

00:28:23.720 about that

00:28:24.120 they've got you know

00:28:25.060 things going on in their lives

00:28:26.260 that they want to worry about

00:28:27.100 and so what David did

00:28:29.460 is applied the template

00:28:31.480 of himself

00:28:32.320 to the the broader population

00:28:34.880 and assumed that they would

00:28:35.820 just all be like him

00:28:37.080 because at base

00:28:38.860 he is a liberal

00:28:39.580 and that is the very root

00:28:41.520 liberal assumption

00:28:42.360 is that all human beings

00:28:43.960 are the same

00:28:44.440 and what he's arrived at

00:28:47.360 is the discovery

00:28:48.100 that in fact

00:28:48.700 actually they're not

00:28:49.680 there are lots of differences

00:28:50.960 between human beings

00:28:52.140 and IQ is one of those differences

00:28:53.860 and so what he's interpreting

00:28:56.020 in a rather dismissive way

00:28:57.000 they're sort of like

00:28:57.420 well they don't want the freedom

00:28:58.500 to learn and read and think

00:28:59.440 is a sort of cognitive privilege

00:29:02.400 and assumption

00:29:03.360 that everyone would want

00:29:05.280 to get to that point

00:29:06.160 and actually that's just not true

00:29:07.520 they don't desire it

00:29:09.280 and even if they did

00:29:10.140 you know

00:29:10.560 maybe they wouldn't be capable of it

00:29:11.940 and even if they were

00:29:12.800 people have a plurality of interests

00:29:15.260 and so they attacked religion

00:29:17.660 on materialist grounds

00:29:20.540 have destroyed

00:29:22.520 the public reputation

00:29:24.640 of religion

00:29:25.180 and now find themselves

00:29:27.140 looking at the void

00:29:28.280 being filled

00:29:28.880 as he says

00:29:29.520 by woke ideology

00:29:30.760 which as you said

00:29:31.560 is absolutely

00:29:32.580 a form of religion

00:29:33.460 because it has a comprehensive

00:29:35.380 totalizing world view

00:29:37.880 that it's trying to explain

00:29:39.760 every single thing from

00:29:40.800 now you know

00:29:42.080 I'm not trying to

00:29:43.080 cast aspersions on religion

00:29:44.720 but the fact of the matter

00:29:46.020 and he makes a good point

00:29:47.360 that it's like

00:29:47.740 look this is a religion

00:29:48.520 without a church now

00:29:49.440 so it's not even violating the law

00:29:51.700 when it's being put into schools

00:29:53.060 put into the government

00:29:56.020 and whatnot in America

00:29:56.980 so it's kind of a bear trap

00:30:00.560 that the new atheist stepped into

00:30:02.320 that he is recognizing

00:30:03.400 has caught his leg

00:30:04.920 and it I think comes from

00:30:07.220 a bit of hubris actually

00:30:08.420 but this is the position

00:30:10.700 that they're in

00:30:11.200 I think it comes from something

00:30:13.680 a little more important

00:30:14.820 which is a complete

00:30:16.120 if not a complete denial

00:30:19.380 an absolute scorn

00:30:20.760 for human nature

00:30:21.700 this is

00:30:24.440 I'd be more charitable

00:30:25.940 I'd be more charitable

00:30:27.120 I would not

00:30:28.820 but that's fine

00:30:29.480 you're more than welcome

00:30:30.660 I understand

00:30:31.140 and as a former new atheist

00:30:34.380 speaking to a Catholic

00:30:35.680 I can understand

00:30:37.040 why you wouldn't be

00:30:37.980 more charitable to them

00:30:39.000 to be fair

00:30:39.960 I'm Southern Baptist

00:30:40.680 but I understand

00:30:41.680 right okay

00:30:42.460 but I

00:30:43.600 they thought they were

00:30:46.040 doing the right thing

00:30:46.860 sure

00:30:47.460 of course

00:30:47.880 they really thought they were

00:30:49.120 and they thought they had

00:30:50.700 all of the answers

00:30:51.420 and you are

00:30:52.640 you are right

00:30:53.200 that it's hubris

00:30:53.860 and

00:30:54.340 but I

00:30:55.620 I wouldn't want to

00:30:56.800 I wouldn't want to

00:30:58.120 impute malice

00:31:00.480 right

00:31:00.880 it's

00:31:01.260 it's not

00:31:02.380 I would

00:31:03.200 I wouldn't say malice

00:31:04.700 but I would say

00:31:05.860 and there's

00:31:06.400 there's an important thing here

00:31:07.640 when you say

00:31:11.460 humanity is not

00:31:12.500 enlightened enough

00:31:13.480 to kind of embrace

00:31:14.420 what I embrace

00:31:15.380 you're sitting like

00:31:16.960 right in the middle

00:31:17.620 of the bell curve meme

00:31:18.640 right

00:31:19.080 like

00:31:19.840 like Grug is at the bottom

00:31:21.220 saying we need religion

00:31:22.240 and then like

00:31:23.280 somewhere Aquinas

00:31:24.320 is on the other end

00:31:25.300 and you're sitting in the middle

00:31:26.200 saying

00:31:26.560 why can't everyone

00:31:27.500 just be as rational as me

00:31:28.980 right

00:31:29.300 that is kind of

00:31:30.760 the new atheist position

00:31:31.780 yeah

00:31:32.040 right

00:31:32.400 right

00:31:32.800 and so

00:31:33.560 it's not just

00:31:35.060 that

00:31:35.820 people

00:31:36.700 embraced

00:31:37.660 didn't get the point

00:31:38.900 and embraced a new

00:31:39.940 religion

00:31:40.500 it's that new atheists

00:31:42.300 were

00:31:42.820 too much in denial

00:31:44.860 about the nature of reality

00:31:46.940 to understand that the metaphysical

00:31:48.740 is real

00:31:49.460 and spirituality

00:31:50.700 is an aspect of human life

00:31:52.740 and your inability

00:31:54.200 or refusal

00:31:55.220 to interact with that

00:31:57.000 does not make you

00:31:58.200 a better person

00:31:59.220 or a more enlightened person

00:32:00.660 than those that do

00:32:02.760 and I think

00:32:03.800 that's kind of

00:32:04.360 what's being revealed here

00:32:05.460 is like

00:32:05.800 oh well

00:32:06.220 we destroyed the church

00:32:07.740 that was already there

00:32:08.900 but we just empowered

00:32:10.220 another church

00:32:11.080 because the masses

00:32:12.160 couldn't go without

00:32:13.440 their precious opiate

00:32:14.600 and so now we're stuck

00:32:15.980 with something even worse

00:32:16.780 than what we destroyed

00:32:17.560 and yeah

00:32:17.940 in some sense

00:32:18.540 you're right

00:32:18.840 it is like a

00:32:19.560 kind of a maya couple

00:32:20.560 of well I guess

00:32:21.200 we kind of messed up here

00:32:22.000 because we didn't actually

00:32:22.640 do a good thing

00:32:23.420 by destroying what was

00:32:24.600 kind of working

00:32:25.300 and replacing it

00:32:26.000 with something that wasn't

00:32:27.360 paving the way

00:32:27.880 for something that

00:32:28.460 that is worse

00:32:29.440 but it's still a denial

00:32:31.060 to understand

00:32:31.760 like a core part

00:32:33.000 of humanity

00:32:33.480 that isn't going away

00:32:34.560 and in the end

00:32:35.260 that is far more

00:32:36.800 of a failure

00:32:37.520 than being like

00:32:39.480 oh well

00:32:40.520 the book said so

00:32:41.800 so I'm going to be

00:32:42.400 a good person

00:32:43.080 it's definitely a product

00:32:45.520 of their liberal ideology

00:32:46.960 it makes them very blind

00:32:48.920 to well the reality

00:32:51.520 of the world

00:32:52.080 and I think this is

00:32:53.080 just something you can see

00:32:54.160 honestly with all liberals

00:32:55.540 because it's based

00:32:57.580 on faulty presuppositions

00:32:58.860 of a universal man

00:33:00.520 then everything

00:33:02.020 essentially boils down

00:33:03.020 to that

00:33:03.380 where again

00:33:04.200 he thought that

00:33:05.380 okay let's assume

00:33:06.500 that David's 120 IQ

00:33:08.580 so he's a smart guy

00:33:10.340 and he wants to improve humanity

00:33:13.320 which I'm sure he did

00:33:14.140 and therefore

00:33:15.500 assuming that everyone

00:33:16.400 could be like him

00:33:17.700 is just not fair

00:33:19.200 actually

00:33:19.700 like you said

00:33:20.440 it's a denial

00:33:20.900 of human nature

00:33:21.620 and so Grug

00:33:22.720 is actually correct

00:33:24.520 when he says

00:33:26.060 no I need God

00:33:27.440 and I don't care

00:33:28.580 I'm not going to listen

00:33:29.860 to your

00:33:30.420 you know

00:33:30.860 namby pamby

00:33:32.260 arguments

00:33:33.480 I'm going to church

00:33:34.900 Grug is actually

00:33:36.600 correct

00:33:37.740 whereas the 120 IQ

00:33:39.460 skeptic

00:33:41.040 is wrong

00:33:41.580 there

00:33:42.080 and

00:33:42.920 there is something

00:33:44.760 mildly amusing

00:33:45.560 about it

00:33:45.840 I tell you

00:33:46.120 the religious folks

00:33:47.580 must be enjoying this

00:33:48.820 quite a lot

00:33:49.660 it's weird

00:33:51.540 eating crow

00:33:52.320 about these things

00:33:53.200 as a former liberal

00:33:54.320 and new atheist

00:33:55.140 but

00:33:57.020 no no

00:33:57.740 the bell curve meme

00:33:59.800 is correct

00:34:00.500 basically

00:34:00.920 it's real

00:34:01.420 right

00:34:02.180 the Aquinas

00:34:03.060 and Grug

00:34:03.740 coming to a harmony

00:34:04.780 on a point

00:34:05.220 that means that point

00:34:06.740 is probably true

00:34:07.380 yeah

00:34:08.440 and to be clear

00:34:09.560 like

00:34:09.860 I mean

00:34:10.680 it's always nice

00:34:11.660 to have someone say

00:34:12.540 yeah okay

00:34:13.020 this was right

00:34:13.600 but that's not the point

00:34:14.840 you know

00:34:15.460 here

00:34:16.320 the point is

00:34:17.220 simply

00:34:17.720 I hear

00:34:19.060 I'm hearing a lot

00:34:19.980 of what you're saying

00:34:20.680 from a lot of people

00:34:21.600 and that's a great

00:34:22.540 step forward

00:34:23.300 that realization

00:34:24.480 that understanding

00:34:25.440 I think is really

00:34:26.520 essential

00:34:27.020 but I'm also hearing

00:34:28.740 a lot of people

00:34:29.940 who are kind of

00:34:31.960 in the

00:34:32.560 I didn't leave

00:34:33.580 the left left me

00:34:34.500 camp

00:34:35.160 say like

00:34:36.500 but we can't

00:34:37.640 recognize

00:34:38.380 that like

00:34:40.180 actually we do

00:34:41.200 need this stuff

00:34:42.700 we have to pretend

00:34:43.860 like okay

00:34:44.680 we made a tactical

00:34:45.540 error somewhere

00:34:46.420 there was a

00:34:47.080 you know

00:34:47.280 we drew the lines

00:34:48.740 in the wrong place

00:34:49.580 but if we could

00:34:50.080 just roll it back

00:34:51.000 10 years

00:34:51.640 and do it all again

00:34:52.940 we could probably

00:34:53.820 throw up enough

00:34:54.380 barriers to keep

00:34:55.320 people from pretending

00:34:56.040 that men can become

00:34:56.860 windmen

00:34:57.200 and it would all be

00:34:57.940 fine at the end

00:34:58.580 of the day

00:34:59.040 well I mean

00:35:01.160 it would be nice

00:35:01.700 to close the door

00:35:02.520 after the horse

00:35:03.120 is bolted right

00:35:03.940 right right

00:35:04.600 but it's way

00:35:05.960 too late for that

00:35:06.820 and

00:35:07.220 I mean

00:35:10.540 I think

00:35:14.840 an argument

00:35:15.520 could be made

00:35:16.040 that it would be

00:35:16.480 nice to return

00:35:17.200 to Fresh Prince

00:35:17.940 but I don't think

00:35:19.140 it's going to happen

00:35:19.680 and I don't really

00:35:20.900 see given the

00:35:21.820 framework that

00:35:22.560 already existed

00:35:23.280 even then

00:35:24.140 how we would

00:35:25.620 prevent another

00:35:26.480 intersectional

00:35:27.560 and comprehensive

00:35:28.600 liberalism from

00:35:29.360 merely arising

00:35:30.120 it kind of feels

00:35:32.140 like an inevitability

00:35:33.060 out of the logical

00:35:33.920 premises

00:35:34.320 that have been

00:35:35.420 assumed

00:35:35.800 and really

00:35:37.020 all you're doing

00:35:37.700 is waiting

00:35:38.220 for a monster

00:35:39.300 like this

00:35:39.780 to come up

00:35:40.280 and start

00:35:40.740 devouring

00:35:41.380 everything

00:35:41.840 so

00:35:42.780 but I hear

00:35:44.480 what you're saying

00:35:44.980 and I think

00:35:45.820 you are

00:35:46.480 hitting on a point

00:35:47.440 which is

00:35:47.900 a lot of the

00:35:49.420 rationalist skeptic

00:35:50.480 types

00:35:50.900 I think

00:35:52.180 are going to

00:35:52.620 have trouble

00:35:53.260 admitting

00:35:53.920 that actually

00:35:54.620 being on this

00:35:56.100 road

00:35:56.580 is the problem

00:35:57.740 and choosing

00:35:59.040 a different path

00:36:00.040 is actually

00:36:00.580 a necessary one

00:36:01.740 because

00:36:02.760 essentially

00:36:03.380 it's going

00:36:03.700 to undo

00:36:04.040 all of their

00:36:04.440 life's work

00:36:05.140 and that's

00:36:06.440 not an easy

00:36:06.880 thing to have

00:36:07.380 to admit

00:36:07.700 that you're

00:36:07.980 going to do

00:36:08.220 I mean

00:36:08.380 to be honest

00:36:08.720 with you

00:36:08.860 this is why

00:36:09.180 I'm speaking

00:36:09.960 in defence of

00:36:10.480 David here

00:36:10.940 for him to

00:36:12.300 have posted

00:36:12.940 this

00:36:13.480 is actually

00:36:14.420 very brave

00:36:15.040 and very honest

00:36:15.860 because

00:36:16.240 you remember

00:36:17.380 the way

00:36:18.820 David Silverman

00:36:19.640 became a meme

00:36:20.360 when he was

00:36:21.160 talking to

00:36:21.800 Bill O'Reilly

00:36:22.840 about the moon

00:36:23.620 and how the

00:36:24.640 tide goes in

00:36:25.380 and out

00:36:25.580 and no one

00:36:25.800 can explain it

00:36:26.460 and he's just

00:36:27.240 like actually

00:36:27.960 we can explain

00:36:28.780 that

00:36:29.060 anyone can

00:36:29.800 explain that

00:36:30.380 and if you

00:36:32.940 think back then

00:36:33.800 the cultural

00:36:34.580 capital that

00:36:35.360 the new

00:36:35.600 atheists had

00:36:36.140 compared to

00:36:37.120 now

00:36:37.580 where they're

00:36:38.720 basically

00:36:40.400 admitting

00:36:40.860 yeah we

00:36:41.300 were wrong

00:36:41.960 it's not

00:36:44.620 been a very

00:36:45.240 long time

00:36:46.420 but it has

00:36:47.540 been a very

00:36:48.140 dramatic shift

00:36:49.300 no and

00:36:51.280 that's for sure

00:36:52.160 I guess

00:36:52.640 the thing

00:36:53.800 like I said

00:36:54.460 I'm glad

00:36:54.960 that a lot

00:36:55.680 of these

00:36:55.980 people

00:36:56.400 understand

00:36:57.400 kind of

00:36:57.960 where we

00:36:58.280 are now

00:36:58.700 the reality

00:36:59.400 of kind

00:37:00.360 of the

00:37:00.660 situation

00:37:01.140 on the

00:37:01.360 ground

00:37:01.600 and they're

00:37:02.180 not too

00:37:02.620 proud

00:37:02.980 to admit

00:37:03.640 that

00:37:03.860 okay

00:37:04.140 there's

00:37:04.520 an issue

00:37:05.360 here

00:37:05.720 and if

00:37:06.220 I continue

00:37:06.700 to deny

00:37:07.220 this

00:37:07.660 then

00:37:08.660 I'm going

00:37:09.840 to lose

00:37:10.120 to something

00:37:10.500 far worse

00:37:11.060 reality

00:37:11.560 right

00:37:12.100 yeah

00:37:12.420 so I guess

00:37:14.200 the issue

00:37:14.820 here's the issue

00:37:15.460 I see now

00:37:16.140 going forward

00:37:16.840 there's a

00:37:18.000 an anti-woke

00:37:19.060 coalition I guess

00:37:20.300 if you want to

00:37:20.860 call it that

00:37:21.400 that is now

00:37:22.380 formed

00:37:22.840 and the thing

00:37:23.760 that I keep

00:37:24.200 seeing people

00:37:24.940 spinning their

00:37:25.480 wheels on

00:37:25.920 over and over

00:37:26.700 and over

00:37:27.040 again is

00:37:27.900 how do we

00:37:28.940 actually resist

00:37:29.940 and it feels

00:37:31.960 like people who

00:37:32.560 are trying to

00:37:33.100 do a push-up

00:37:34.000 in the air

00:37:34.820 right

00:37:35.400 they have

00:37:35.780 nothing to

00:37:36.320 push up

00:37:36.800 off of

00:37:37.560 because

00:37:38.200 they have

00:37:39.640 at the

00:37:40.740 kind of

00:37:40.980 the core

00:37:41.560 of their

00:37:41.900 being

00:37:42.460 a denial

00:37:43.500 of a

00:37:44.660 system

00:37:45.080 that would

00:37:45.700 be required

00:37:46.660 to have

00:37:47.640 any kind

00:37:48.200 of actual

00:37:48.860 structure

00:37:49.460 to society

00:37:50.320 and so

00:37:51.320 I see a lot

00:37:52.120 of people

00:37:52.520 who you know

00:37:53.480 they don't want

00:37:54.220 kids getting

00:37:54.960 trans

00:37:55.400 they don't

00:37:56.060 want you know

00:37:56.880 people getting

00:37:57.440 fired because

00:37:58.040 they're white

00:37:58.520 they don't want

00:37:59.240 people screaming

00:38:00.440 at people

00:38:00.920 you know

00:38:01.380 that because

00:38:02.000 they're the wrong

00:38:03.040 skin color

00:38:03.880 but

00:38:04.880 they also

00:38:06.160 don't have

00:38:06.600 any understanding

00:38:07.760 of like how

00:38:08.380 you would forge

00:38:09.100 a polity

00:38:09.620 moving forward

00:38:10.300 how you

00:38:10.700 would create

00:38:11.420 a community

00:38:12.740 and a moral

00:38:13.640 basis

00:38:14.100 that would

00:38:14.820 allow you

00:38:15.720 to kind of

00:38:16.560 advance that

00:38:17.520 and so they

00:38:18.320 spend a lot

00:38:19.200 of time

00:38:19.680 going like

00:38:20.260 well we have

00:38:21.300 to oppose

00:38:21.720 this we have

00:38:22.240 to oppose

00:38:22.680 that but

00:38:23.440 then the minute

00:38:23.800 someone's like

00:38:24.540 okay well the

00:38:25.100 way we oppose

00:38:25.660 that is we

00:38:26.120 ground that

00:38:26.860 in the fact

00:38:27.380 that like this

00:38:27.940 violates some

00:38:29.500 kind of religious

00:38:30.060 presupposition

00:38:30.800 like oh no

00:38:31.640 I can't have

00:38:32.280 that that would

00:38:32.860 be insane

00:38:33.340 that would be

00:38:33.740 crazy it's like

00:38:34.320 okay what are

00:38:34.980 you gonna

00:38:35.240 ground it in

00:38:35.880 reason and

00:38:37.300 logic how'd

00:38:37.840 that go last

00:38:38.320 time

00:38:38.680 really poorly

00:38:39.800 okay what's

00:38:40.500 the new plan

00:38:41.160 in fact in fact

00:38:42.680 it's that they

00:38:43.560 never seem to

00:38:44.280 ask themselves

00:38:44.880 why are we on

00:38:46.100 the defensive

00:38:46.620 why are we

00:38:47.440 constantly losing

00:38:48.260 the argument

00:38:48.760 why are the

00:38:49.560 people in power

00:38:50.280 constantly doing

00:38:51.200 the woke thing

00:38:52.100 rather than the

00:38:53.000 90s liberal

00:38:53.680 thing and that's

00:38:54.800 because as you're

00:38:55.700 saying the reason

00:38:56.800 and logic of the

00:38:58.100 premises that you

00:38:59.160 begin with arrive

00:39:00.520 at the comprehensive

00:39:01.600 liberal position

00:39:02.300 because you have

00:39:02.860 no competing value

00:39:03.840 set and you have

00:39:04.880 no competing value

00:39:05.720 set because you

00:39:07.260 jettisoned

00:39:08.220 christianity but

00:39:09.500 kept the

00:39:10.460 assumptions without

00:39:11.780 admitting you

00:39:12.460 kept the

00:39:12.820 assumptions like

00:39:13.760 the question why

00:39:14.540 why can't you

00:39:15.160 trans children

00:39:16.140 well that requires

00:39:17.480 a very conservative

00:39:18.580 and probably at

00:39:19.540 base a kind of

00:39:20.220 religious view of

00:39:20.940 the creation of

00:39:21.580 man and woman

00:39:22.100 that just happened

00:39:23.740 to have persisted

00:39:24.540 throughout society

00:39:25.180 and of course

00:39:26.180 reflects real life

00:39:27.500 right we can see

00:39:28.420 what men and

00:39:28.880 women are but

00:39:30.060 if you're a

00:39:30.640 liberal and you

00:39:31.980 don't have

00:39:32.900 this you don't

00:39:34.940 you can't be

00:39:36.140 authentic about

00:39:36.880 that then

00:39:37.920 ultimately you

00:39:39.700 can say well I

00:39:40.480 just don't think

00:39:40.980 it's right and

00:39:42.000 then you lose

00:39:42.720 every argument

00:39:43.380 going forward

00:39:44.380 because you're

00:39:45.240 afraid to appeal

00:39:46.020 to the thing

00:39:46.540 you would have

00:39:46.900 to appeal to

00:39:47.320 which is that

00:39:47.820 conservative

00:39:48.280 grounding and

00:39:49.480 you're absolutely

00:39:50.140 right pushing on

00:39:50.840 air is a good

00:39:51.600 push-ups on air

00:39:53.000 is a good way of

00:39:53.580 putting it because

00:39:54.400 they don't like it

00:39:55.040 and they know they

00:39:55.520 don't like it

00:39:55.960 because they know

00:39:56.360 it's wrong to do

00:39:57.360 but they don't

00:39:58.000 know why it's

00:39:58.640 wrong to do and

00:39:59.160 they can't articulate

00:40:00.080 why it's wrong

00:40:01.040 and you're

00:40:02.500 absolutely right

00:40:03.020 they need to

00:40:03.920 think of

00:40:04.240 something and

00:40:05.100 they I don't

00:40:07.680 think will be

00:40:08.260 coming to

00:40:08.740 Christianity not

00:40:10.060 because they're

00:40:10.780 again they're

00:40:11.160 hateful people

00:40:11.640 or anything just

00:40:13.060 I think they're

00:40:14.300 too far down the

00:40:15.600 rabbit hole

00:40:16.140 basically well

00:40:17.800 and that's always

00:40:18.340 possible but then

00:40:19.280 it kind of leaves

00:40:19.860 us in a quite a

00:40:21.120 terrible position

00:40:22.060 here right because

00:40:22.820 then we really

00:40:23.420 don't have yeah

00:40:24.880 well I guess we

00:40:25.480 should we should

00:40:26.100 probably dig a

00:40:27.740 little deeper on

00:40:28.240 that first then

00:40:28.840 before we join

00:40:29.360 conclusions so if

00:40:32.300 that's the

00:40:32.840 situation if

00:40:33.740 liberalism and

00:40:34.980 its need to

00:40:36.400 kind of allow

00:40:38.360 for an

00:40:38.740 individuation is

00:40:41.000 something that

00:40:41.960 has a hard time

00:40:43.240 drawing barriers

00:40:44.380 around things that

00:40:45.940 are kind of

00:40:46.460 essential to our

00:40:47.740 identity and our

00:40:48.460 well-being is

00:40:49.960 there a version of

00:40:50.880 this that can

00:40:51.880 continue and exist

00:40:53.420 can we contain

00:40:55.660 liberalism to

00:40:56.520 specific spheres

00:40:57.780 of our societies

00:41:00.200 without them

00:41:01.000 spilling over and

00:41:01.820 eventually just

00:41:02.540 becoming that

00:41:03.100 civilizational

00:41:03.680 asset and if

00:41:05.320 so what can

00:41:06.600 be used to

00:41:07.600 do that

00:41:08.160 well it would

00:41:10.460 have to be a

00:41:11.300 competing value

00:41:12.200 set that was

00:41:13.240 imbued with

00:41:14.520 sincere belief

00:41:15.660 that we could

00:41:17.680 use to leverage

00:41:19.860 against liberalism

00:41:21.340 because the

00:41:22.460 problem with

00:41:23.140 liberalism and

00:41:24.400 not many people

00:41:25.620 on the right

00:41:25.900 want to admit

00:41:26.340 this is that it

00:41:27.460 has virtues

00:41:28.200 there are

00:41:28.820 virtues in

00:41:29.600 liberalism it

00:41:30.340 is able to

00:41:31.220 muster a

00:41:32.200 convincing argument

00:41:33.280 against oppression

00:41:34.160 and for agency

00:41:36.160 and this is one

00:41:37.400 thing that

00:41:37.740 conservatives

00:41:38.100 actually do

00:41:38.540 believe in

00:41:38.980 is personal

00:41:39.520 agency and so

00:41:41.340 liberalism does

00:41:42.380 have grounds to

00:41:44.520 make its own

00:41:45.040 arguments it

00:41:46.520 however can't

00:41:47.840 stop itself from

00:41:48.540 going too far

00:41:49.220 and so the

00:41:50.400 conservative

00:41:50.980 perspective has

00:41:52.120 to ground

00:41:52.840 itself and

00:41:53.560 essentially be

00:41:54.100 able to resist

00:41:55.600 and overcome

00:41:56.400 liberalism and

00:41:57.080 return it to

00:41:57.540 its proper

00:41:57.880 place and that

00:41:59.280 means essentially

00:42:02.320 the conservatives

00:42:03.000 I think should be

00:42:03.760 arguing that you

00:42:04.340 can't really be a

00:42:05.120 liberal without

00:42:05.620 being a

00:42:06.260 conservative

00:42:06.620 without being

00:42:07.380 in some way

00:42:08.360 if not religious

00:42:09.140 yourself

00:42:09.800 enthrall or

00:42:11.560 admitting the

00:42:12.700 roots the

00:42:14.500 religious roots

00:42:15.280 of conservatism

00:42:16.700 that grounds

00:42:17.760 liberalism in

00:42:18.880 what would be

00:42:20.120 a healthy

00:42:20.700 polity as in

00:42:21.920 something that

00:42:22.700 could be given

00:42:24.080 healthy boundaries

00:42:25.120 because again

00:42:25.900 the liberal

00:42:26.980 argument against

00:42:27.660 state power is

00:42:28.540 a good one

00:42:29.060 and it works

00:42:30.180 and it is good

00:42:31.040 and you would

00:42:31.740 rather live in a

00:42:32.800 state that had

00:42:33.340 liberal restrictions

00:42:34.160 on state power

00:42:34.880 than not I've got

00:42:35.880 no doubt

00:42:36.420 essentially it

00:42:38.560 means the

00:42:38.920 conservatives need

00:42:39.780 to be able to

00:42:40.440 find a way of

00:42:41.200 arguing the

00:42:42.480 moral legitimacy of

00:42:43.560 their own case

00:42:44.260 and one problem

00:42:45.820 that they've had

00:42:46.600 all of this time

00:42:47.720 is being called

00:42:49.020 names

00:42:49.360 they can't take

00:42:50.420 it

00:42:50.600 they just can't

00:42:51.540 take being called

00:42:52.220 racist or

00:42:52.940 sexist or

00:42:53.600 transphobic or

00:42:54.580 blah blah blah

00:42:55.260 they have to

00:42:57.160 just go well

00:42:57.820 if that's what

00:42:58.660 you think

00:42:59.280 that's fine

00:43:00.280 but I'm not

00:43:01.240 changing my

00:43:01.740 position and

00:43:03.060 we are going

00:43:03.880 to have this

00:43:04.600 we are going

00:43:05.560 to have these

00:43:06.180 boundaries

00:43:06.560 and that's the

00:43:07.560 only thing that

00:43:08.060 I personally can

00:43:08.940 see if anyone's

00:43:10.760 got any better

00:43:11.220 ideas I'm more

00:43:12.160 than willing to

00:43:12.620 hear them

00:43:12.940 so I think

00:43:15.180 you're right

00:43:15.640 about some

00:43:16.220 good chunk

00:43:17.160 of that

00:43:17.440 I would say

00:43:17.980 that liberal

00:43:18.820 restrictions on

00:43:19.920 government power

00:43:20.680 is a bit of a

00:43:21.420 misnomer

00:43:21.900 I think what

00:43:23.280 actually restricts

00:43:24.220 government power

00:43:25.020 is competing

00:43:26.340 spheres of

00:43:27.020 authority

00:43:27.580 sure

00:43:28.560 and so

00:43:29.500 so just to

00:43:30.700 just to make

00:43:31.460 clear I do

00:43:32.180 agree with you

00:43:32.700 what I'm

00:43:33.120 what I'm

00:43:35.280 suggesting is

00:43:35.840 there is a

00:43:36.660 an interest

00:43:38.560 group that is

00:43:39.760 created by

00:43:40.520 liberalism that

00:43:41.160 is concerned

00:43:41.820 about executive

00:43:43.480 authority and

00:43:44.780 therefore produces

00:43:45.820 that competing

00:43:46.940 class of people

00:43:49.500 who will oppose

00:43:51.160 government's

00:43:52.120 overreach so I

00:43:53.760 do agree with

00:43:54.520 you but it's

00:43:55.300 the belief to

00:43:56.620 animate them to

00:43:57.400 action is what

00:43:58.500 I'm arguing for

00:43:59.100 there

00:43:59.320 yeah fair enough

00:44:00.820 I just I think a

00:44:01.700 lot of times and

00:44:02.820 for most liberals

00:44:03.640 it turns into a

00:44:04.960 mechanical thing

00:44:05.820 or a constitutional

00:44:06.520 thing

00:44:07.020 the law of

00:44:07.460 the universe

00:44:08.020 exactly

00:44:08.620 rather than

00:44:09.340 understanding that

00:44:10.300 what that that

00:44:11.220 what creates the

00:44:11.960 magic of competing

00:44:12.760 powers that

00:44:13.980 monoscue's checks

00:44:14.920 and balances

00:44:15.340 isn't like oh

00:44:16.360 well because we

00:44:17.160 have a tripod

00:44:17.900 government that's

00:44:18.720 not actually what

00:44:19.300 matters

00:44:19.800 it's descended

00:44:20.740 from the heavens

00:44:21.440 right it's the

00:44:23.000 fact that you

00:44:23.600 have the church

00:44:24.560 and the nobility

00:44:25.500 and the average

00:44:26.320 person and the

00:44:27.160 merchant class

00:44:27.840 all with different

00:44:29.280 and disparate

00:44:30.080 interests working

00:44:31.280 through representation

00:44:32.880 inside that

00:44:34.560 separation of

00:44:35.180 powers that is

00:44:35.760 actually what's

00:44:36.440 supposed to

00:44:36.800 restrict you

00:44:38.060 know the the

00:44:38.500 power of

00:44:38.960 government it's

00:44:39.600 not just because

00:44:40.300 you I created a

00:44:41.360 new branch of

00:44:41.860 government and

00:44:42.360 now it checks the

00:44:42.980 other one but

00:44:43.500 that's not how

00:44:43.980 that works at

00:44:44.500 all yeah

00:44:44.980 actually Rousseau

00:44:46.880 is right on

00:44:47.540 this there's no

00:44:48.500 point having a

00:44:49.040 constitution unless

00:44:49.860 it's inscribed on

00:44:50.800 the hearts of the

00:44:51.260 people right and

00:44:52.540 you know something

00:44:53.920 that's the one

00:44:54.720 thing he and

00:44:55.200 de Maester agree

00:44:56.280 on yes it's the

00:44:57.220 one thing he got

00:44:57.860 right basically

00:44:58.700 ultimately he can

00:45:01.620 write down whatever

00:45:02.180 he likes but if

00:45:02.800 people don't

00:45:03.220 genuinely believe

00:45:03.900 it then it won't

00:45:04.400 work and he's

00:45:05.560 right and and

00:45:06.460 this this is

00:45:07.260 liberalism is good

00:45:08.260 at getting people

00:45:08.800 to genuinely

00:45:09.320 believe that the

00:45:10.400 state should have

00:45:10.900 limits I mean

00:45:11.580 that's that's

00:45:12.120 fair you know

00:45:12.880 it's totally in

00:45:14.100 line with the

00:45:14.480 political traditions

00:45:15.240 that people inherit

00:45:15.960 in the English

00:45:16.780 speaking world so

00:45:18.100 it's not that

00:45:18.760 liberal doesn't

00:45:19.260 liberalism doesn't

00:45:20.060 have a strong

00:45:20.400 argument it's that

00:45:21.540 there has to be a

00:45:22.940 slightly stronger

00:45:24.380 argument from the

00:45:25.900 conservative side

00:45:26.780 to say well look

00:45:28.280 we are willing to

00:45:29.040 exercise authority in

00:45:30.300 order to protect

00:45:31.240 the sanctity of

00:45:32.680 marriage the

00:45:33.260 innocence of

00:45:33.880 children the

00:45:35.300 orthodoxy of a

00:45:38.040 good western

00:45:38.900 education for

00:45:40.000 example the all

00:45:40.800 of these things the

00:45:41.740 conservatives need

00:45:42.640 and and honestly in

00:45:43.760 America there are

00:45:44.560 there are conservatives

00:45:45.460 doing this actually

00:45:46.920 just actively

00:45:47.700 legislating against the

00:45:49.100 excessive liberal

00:45:49.840 liberalism which is a

00:45:51.600 good thing and

00:45:52.480 honestly in my

00:45:53.300 country we look on

00:45:54.520 it in envy like

00:45:56.180 about half of

00:45:56.920 America at this

00:45:57.660 point that seems to

00:45:58.380 have woken up to oh

00:45:59.300 there's something

00:45:59.820 terribly communist

00:46:01.300 going on here and

00:46:02.100 we don't like it

00:46:02.880 it's not necessarily

00:46:04.900 communist in in the

00:46:06.180 way that people think

00:46:06.900 of communism but I'm

00:46:07.880 I'm happy to let the

00:46:08.760 boomers call it

00:46:09.380 communism same thing

00:46:10.160 I have the same

00:46:11.320 I'm not going to

00:46:12.580 correct them yeah it's

00:46:13.200 basically communism

00:46:13.980 mate sure man

00:46:14.660 absolutely as long as

00:46:15.940 you're ready to crush

00:46:16.560 it that's exactly

00:46:17.460 exactly exactly

00:46:18.340 it's exactly I feel

00:46:19.660 about it 100% the

00:46:20.820 only time I make that

00:46:21.540 argument is when I

00:46:22.220 have to do the like

00:46:23.040 the James Lindsay

00:46:24.000 like well if we just

00:46:25.240 get rid of communism

00:46:25.940 we can go back to

00:46:26.680 liberalism thing it's

00:46:27.440 like no that that's

00:46:28.740 not right but but

00:46:29.740 yeah for the for the

00:46:30.560 average boomer who's

00:46:31.180 like it's communism

00:46:31.900 sure man let's let's

00:46:33.040 just blow it up

00:46:33.520 together yeah yeah

00:46:34.980 yeah 100% so so

00:46:36.880 I'm gonna make I'm

00:46:38.440 gonna make the

00:46:39.100 dejuval the

00:46:40.940 juvenilian slash

00:46:43.260 Hoppian argument

00:46:44.020 here and you let me

00:46:45.080 know what you think

00:46:45.680 liberal democracy

00:46:47.920 does not restrict

00:46:49.260 the power of

00:46:50.840 government ultimately

00:46:51.700 it allows for the

00:46:52.960 centralization and

00:46:53.980 control of government

00:46:54.920 by destroying

00:46:55.740 competing spheres

00:46:57.180 of authority so as

00:46:59.540 the authority of the

00:47:00.260 church and the

00:47:00.700 authority of family

00:47:01.400 is is inevitably

00:47:03.720 destroyed by the

00:47:05.440 elective process of

00:47:06.460 liberalism it is the

00:47:08.380 state that has to

00:47:09.920 then pick up the

00:47:11.140 political energy that

00:47:12.400 is kind of loosened

00:47:14.040 by the destruction of

00:47:15.240 these traditional bonds

00:47:16.200 and ultimately this is

00:47:17.900 why liberal governments

00:47:19.320 produce the levay on

00:47:20.800 mass that's why they

00:47:21.940 produce the income

00:47:24.060 tax this is why they

00:47:25.760 produce you know

00:47:28.000 that liberalism

00:47:29.360 liberal democracy was

00:47:30.460 necessary for the

00:47:31.260 massification of

00:47:33.120 civilization the will

00:47:35.200 of the people enables

00:47:36.880 tyrannies are more

00:47:38.820 plentiful than those of

00:47:41.220 singular kings and so

00:47:43.480 what we've seen is

00:47:44.760 liberalism's growth not

00:47:45.900 just because it makes

00:47:46.960 people feel good but

00:47:49.220 because it actively

00:47:50.540 enables the growth of

00:47:51.880 the state and

00:47:52.960 ultimately it is it is

00:47:54.500 kind of this hyper

00:47:56.060 liberalization that

00:47:57.900 has allowed basically

00:47:59.260 this global empire to

00:48:01.740 assemble itself in under

00:48:03.720 the virtue of liberalism

00:48:04.780 and eventually wokeness

00:48:05.640 and progressivism

00:48:06.400 there could be some

00:48:08.060 truth to that

00:48:08.720 again if we begin back

00:48:11.400 at Locke creating the

00:48:13.400 mechanical universe

00:48:14.440 without God then it

00:48:18.420 seems inevitable that

00:48:19.680 eventually the let's

00:48:21.860 just take the church

00:48:22.740 as a bulwark against

00:48:24.120 total centralization of

00:48:26.320 state power even

00:48:27.320 though there's a lot

00:48:29.120 that can be picked

00:48:29.840 holes picked in the

00:48:31.180 idea of an actual

00:48:32.520 separation of church

00:48:33.280 and state especially

00:48:33.900 in say my country where

00:48:34.920 we don't have such a

00:48:35.740 thing but let's say

00:48:37.320 the church itself is

00:48:38.260 just a separate

00:48:39.920 institution around

00:48:42.600 which sincere belief

00:48:44.160 can gather into a

00:48:45.960 politically powerful

00:48:47.060 force if liberalism

00:48:49.780 did at bottom create

00:48:51.740 that cleavage between

00:48:53.360 the universe and God

00:48:55.040 and has acted as the

00:48:57.560 kind of acid that has

00:48:58.660 broken it open then

00:49:00.320 sure you could

00:49:00.980 definitely say that

00:49:01.980 liberalism has reduced

00:49:03.540 a power block that

00:49:05.520 would challenge its own

00:49:06.560 centralizing authority

00:49:07.760 but moreover if it's

00:49:10.380 created a sincere belief

00:49:11.800 in the minds of its

00:49:12.660 adherents in place of

00:49:14.860 the sincere belief that

00:49:15.820 would have engaged with

00:49:17.700 the church and created

00:49:19.820 that as a power block

00:49:20.680 then yeah you could

00:49:22.580 say it's kind of sucked

00:49:23.400 up all of that energy

00:49:24.180 and centralized it all

00:49:25.780 in the state and then

00:49:28.260 you are absolutely right

00:49:29.020 I mean the liberalism

00:49:31.100 being a materialist

00:49:32.120 philosophy means that

00:49:33.640 harm means needs to be

00:49:35.360 mitigated and therefore

00:49:37.120 why wouldn't you use the

00:49:38.200 state to do that it's

00:49:39.120 a particularly powerful

00:49:39.880 object entity that can

00:49:42.160 be used to all sorts of

00:49:43.660 things and you are again

00:49:45.300 correct I think in saying

00:49:46.380 there's no way any kind of

00:49:48.480 pre-modern kingship could

00:49:50.720 have arrived at the

00:49:51.840 levels of tyranny we've

00:49:52.920 seen in the 20th century

00:49:54.020 and God only knows what

00:49:55.280 we'll see in the 21st so

00:49:56.840 it's it's definitely an

00:49:58.420 argument I think has

00:49:59.320 merit and honestly I it's

00:50:03.180 hard to think of a good

00:50:04.320 counter-argument off of the

00:50:05.520 top of my head because it

00:50:09.560 doesn't seem to be one

00:50:10.440 well I just it's something

00:50:12.660 that I found very compelling

00:50:13.980 you know because I'm a look

00:50:16.080 man I'm a I'm a talk radio

00:50:17.960 GOP Republican for my for

00:50:20.520 all of my life up until

00:50:21.660 about three years ago I

00:50:23.020 believed in all of this

00:50:24.160 stuff 100% so so I believed

00:50:27.300 in liberalism up until about

00:50:28.500 three years ago right so I'm

00:50:30.440 just saying like I'm not I'm

00:50:31.820 not you know just throwing

00:50:32.980 this out here as no no I

00:50:34.540 beat up on because I made a

00:50:36.220 you know a similar not the

00:50:37.420 same journey but a similar

00:50:38.380 journey in that I'm not sure

00:50:40.480 that any of this stuff really

00:50:42.180 the the things that I

00:50:43.580 thought were liberal

00:50:44.200 restrictions on government

00:50:45.940 I'm not sure that they ever

00:50:47.320 were that they were

00:50:48.660 momentarily but but the the

00:50:51.620 argument that I think the

00:50:53.120 juvenile makes and and I

00:50:54.600 really again I have a hard

00:50:56.140 time refuting it is that

00:50:57.900 really sovereignty is based

00:50:59.620 on dependency and once we

00:51:03.200 liberated ourselves from

00:51:05.720 dependency on community and

00:51:07.240 church and family we didn't

00:51:09.920 become independent we simply

00:51:11.820 became dependent on

00:51:12.760 something else and because

00:51:14.360 those small competing

00:51:15.900 spheres all made massive

00:51:17.860 demands on our time we felt

00:51:20.600 more liberated right because

00:51:21.980 I don't have to raise

00:51:22.780 children or please a wife or

00:51:24.540 go to church and pay a lot of

00:51:25.960 money or blah blah blah now I

00:51:27.460 can play all the video games I

00:51:28.580 want right but of course

00:51:29.540 that's not a good life

00:51:32.300 obviously and that's not free

00:51:33.840 to me no it's not at all but

00:51:35.660 on top of that are we still

00:51:39.640 need people in our old age or

00:51:41.740 when we get sick we still need

00:51:43.820 people to care for us in these

00:51:45.880 scenarios and it's not that we

00:51:47.480 just become liberated from that

00:51:49.260 need it's simply that the state

00:51:50.740 becomes that person so the woman

00:51:53.440 doesn't become independent of her

00:51:54.880 husband she simply makes the

00:51:56.500 government her husband the the

00:51:58.420 the the university student doesn't

00:52:00.600 the new atheist doesn't become

00:52:01.780 independent of religion the state

00:52:03.480 simply becomes the new religion and

00:52:05.620 we never really actually free

00:52:08.380 ourselves because there is no

00:52:09.720 such thing as freedom there's

00:52:11.300 only duty and dependence and

00:52:13.120 when we place ourselves inside of

00:52:15.360 those smaller more subsidiary

00:52:18.620 dependencies then we have what we

00:52:21.800 think of as a good life that can be

00:52:23.360 oriented towards virtue but when we

00:52:25.160 dissolve it all into one leviathan

00:52:27.720 dependence on state then it simply

00:52:31.120 becomes what we have now I mean I

00:52:33.440 think that's a fairly accurate

00:52:35.420 representation of what we've got and

00:52:36.660 in fact you can look to early

00:52:39.140 liberal thinkers and see that this

00:52:43.840 was kind of inevitable anyway I mean

00:52:46.080 Rousseau does have a particular line

00:52:48.120 in the social contract that

00:52:49.600 expressly says the whole purpose of

00:52:51.460 liberalism is to make man as

00:52:53.640 independent of one another as

00:52:55.820 possible and as dependent on the

00:52:57.940 state as possible and I mean Locke

00:53:01.100 obviously wasn't in favor of this but

00:53:02.860 he clearly has lost the argument and

00:53:05.540 maybe it was definitively going to

00:53:08.800 happen from the premises of

00:53:10.120 liberalism that we would arrive at

00:53:11.800 this point as you've just described

00:53:13.160 but there are some who just embrace

00:53:15.080 it and say no the mask doesn't need

00:53:16.840 to be on for this that's the point

00:53:18.080 because and maybe maybe you can

00:53:20.680 understand in their own day where

00:53:21.820 you have a very thick cloying

00:53:24.440 society where you have recognized

00:53:26.840 social ranks and you have these sort

00:53:30.920 of imposed duties and obligations that

00:53:32.920 you can't escape and maybe aren't even

00:53:35.600 fair in some ways and so the argument

00:53:38.300 for liberalism to break social bonds I

00:53:40.300 mean this is literally the very

00:53:41.300 beginning of the social contract

00:53:42.600 everywhere is man man is born free and

00:53:44.600 is in chains the chains weren't the

00:53:46.340 state the state wasn't nearly powerful

00:53:48.140 enough to do that it was society that

00:53:49.800 was the problem and so the purpose of

00:53:52.280 liberalism is to break these chains of

00:53:54.380 society so that man could be a self

00:53:56.920 authoring creature well we've

00:53:59.060 discovered that man is not a self

00:54:00.560 authoring creature and never can be you

00:54:02.960 are whatever you are the product of

00:54:05.000 your environment basically whatever that

00:54:06.400 happens to be and it could well be that

00:54:10.220 there is no way in liberalism to

00:54:14.360 establish any of the goods that we're

00:54:17.500 talking about other than total

00:54:19.280 dependence on the state because

00:54:21.080 liberalism itself is oriented to breaking

00:54:23.300 social bonds and it looks like we're

00:54:28.040 arriving at that point doesn't it

00:54:29.200 yeah quite yeah quite quickly and in a

00:54:32.040 terrifying manner yeah so I'm gonna

00:54:35.380 throw one more possibility out to you

00:54:37.140 and this won't be any white pill for

00:54:38.480 anybody so sorry about that but here we

00:54:40.020 go

00:54:40.280 there aren't many around though are we

00:54:42.020 no no you know we get this on the

00:54:44.960 podcast every day it's like don't you

00:54:46.260 have any good news like do you see any

00:54:48.120 good news

00:54:48.720 if you find me let me know yeah exactly

00:54:51.420 right yeah no yeah but yeah if you if

00:54:53.760 you can't be if you can't be positive at

00:54:55.740 least be right I suppose but yeah so

00:54:59.060 Nick Land kind of pointed out his

00:55:03.320 understanding and he called this capital

00:55:05.800 so we can yell at him for his his early

00:55:08.040 Marxism if we like but I think his his

00:55:10.780 point here is is strong he looked at

00:55:13.880 capital or liberalism as we would we

00:55:16.180 would see it and he said basically

00:55:19.100 traditional cultures are like kind of

00:55:22.480 the rods on a nuclear reactor they're

00:55:25.400 there to contain this capital reaction

00:55:29.740 this liberal reaction and allow it to be

00:55:32.360 like used to the good of society but

00:55:35.040 kind of once one of these rods is

00:55:37.380 ripped out we start to just see a chain

00:55:40.820 reaction that builds upon itself and it

00:55:43.060 kind of consumes everything it gives

00:55:44.420 kind of the example of like gunboats

00:55:46.460 opening you know up Asian countries you

00:55:49.680 know China wants to it doesn't it

00:55:52.160 doesn't care if it doesn't modernize

00:55:53.600 because it's chosen to be Chinese and

00:55:55.960 not a world citizen but eventually those

00:55:58.860 that advance do come around and kind of

00:56:01.380 destroy that the power unleashed is too

00:56:03.540 great to resist exactly and so the

00:56:05.640 question is is the dissolving power of

00:56:09.120 liberalism unavoidable not because we're

00:56:12.000 not virtuous because we stop believing in

00:56:14.920 God because we're not morally capable of

00:56:17.960 the things our forefathers were but that

00:56:20.300 we're caught in a historical and

00:56:22.260 mechanical inevitability and that kind of

00:56:25.500 the only thing that can happen is that

00:56:27.320 eventually these things just have to run

00:56:29.200 through and burn their way through

00:56:31.320 society is there even a way to hedge

00:56:33.720 against what has now become this

00:56:36.120 completely out of control reaction of

00:56:38.380 liberalism I think it was noted

00:56:42.140 political philosopher Robbie Williams the

00:56:44.680 musician who recently said that he

00:56:47.420 doesn't really understand what's

00:56:48.740 happening but he knows that there's

00:56:50.340 good and truth in his own family and so

00:56:52.320 he commits to them and honestly I think

00:56:54.380 at this point that's a pretty safe bet

00:56:56.340 yeah it probably is that we simply have

00:56:59.140 to ride the tiger of modernity until it

00:57:01.060 burns itself out and we collapse into the

00:57:03.760 new golden age until then I think the

00:57:07.560 best thing really is to make sure that

00:57:09.200 you and your loved ones are just cared

00:57:11.120 for and taken care of as best you can

00:57:13.040 I mean the forces that we are watching

00:57:17.640 play out at the moment are legitimately

00:57:20.240 titanic and I mean that in every sense

00:57:23.300 of the word when I say titan they are I

00:57:27.680 can totally understand why a lot of

00:57:29.460 Christians like well I think we're kind

00:57:31.460 of living in Satan's world it seems that

00:57:33.120 demons are running around everywhere and

00:57:35.140 you know as an atheist it's like well that

00:57:36.580 sounds stupid and then you see like

00:57:38.740 literally people you know dressing up as

00:57:41.060 demons and you know trying to mutilate

00:57:42.940 children you're like well yeah and yeah

00:57:45.760 yeah yeah exactly and you're like okay

00:57:47.380 well it's I don't agree that they are

00:57:50.440 quote-unquote demons but I totally see

00:57:52.520 why you're calling them demons and it

00:57:54.740 becomes less ridiculous by the day but

00:57:57.140 the the the forces that have been

00:57:58.640 unleashed are genuinely enormous you can

00:58:00.680 see it in all of the West that this the

00:58:04.320 the gay pride flag wherever that flies

00:58:06.960 which is literally the entire American

00:58:09.300 empire at this point and all of its

00:58:11.880 vassal states this is a massive force I

00:58:16.340 can't imagine what it would take I mean

00:58:18.080 if you just name some other movement to

00:58:20.760 get the entire Western world to be flying

00:58:23.100 your flag that's such a colossal

00:58:26.860 undertaking right and it's it's

00:58:28.860 everywhere it's in every layer of

00:58:30.780 society I mean there was a clip going

00:58:33.220 around from a Canadian school where a

00:58:35.240 Muslim student was like well I don't

00:58:36.540 really believe in all of this stuff and

00:58:37.720 the Canadian teacher was like we should

00:58:39.160 leave like the country they meant leave

00:58:41.500 you should one thing that will get them

00:58:43.200 to expel immigrants the one thing yeah

00:58:46.820 exactly base expel based immigrants

00:58:49.740 you know great the the the the religion

00:58:54.040 of inclusion strikes again and you can

00:58:56.840 tell the teacher was really upset by this

00:58:58.560 as well this was genuine like oh I'm

00:59:00.400 hearing heresy right that was that was

00:59:02.660 the teacher's tone of voice and that

00:59:05.200 that is that is mad and that is enormous

00:59:08.300 and we should and we ought to do what we

00:59:12.180 can obviously to push back against it I

00:59:13.880 mean the Bud Light boycott go do everything

00:59:16.220 you know do all of these things you know

00:59:18.040 legislate as much as you can but there

00:59:20.660 does feel like there is something the

00:59:23.880 nuclear reactor example why am I

00:59:30.300 forgetting the word analogy is a good

00:59:34.200 one because it is a colossal amount of

00:59:36.780 force that is currently being

00:59:37.900 uncontrolled I don't think we can put it

00:59:41.660 back in the bottle I don't think that we

00:59:43.280 can stop it I think we do have to write

00:59:45.800 it out for as long as we can and just

00:59:47.640 try and make sure that we are okay so

00:59:49.500 when the final the when the the reactor

00:59:53.220 finally burns itself out and all of the

00:59:55.600 fallout has polluted all of the world we

00:59:58.420 might be in a bunker somewhere and can at

01:00:00.900 least have protected ourselves no I think

01:00:04.280 that's absolutely right and I you know

01:00:05.920 again a lot no no massive white pills

01:00:08.680 here but if you're gonna take one away

01:00:09.920 guys this is it like I obviously I'm a

01:00:13.400 little different in that I grew up with

01:00:15.220 a religious tradition I've always found a

01:00:16.840 deep amount of meaning in it so I can't I

01:00:19.300 can't be like ah I figured this out no

01:00:21.280 not at all I'm insanely lucky and I

01:00:23.800 believe it entirely without without a

01:00:25.880 doubt so you know lucky me I can't I

01:00:28.780 can't I can't put take any credit for

01:00:30.360 this one at all but my parents get all of

01:00:32.240 it and my my community get all of it but

01:00:34.820 but even beyond that like I find an

01:00:37.880 incredible amount of meaning in my family

01:00:40.140 and I this is and I know that's and I

01:00:45.200 know I'm a I'm now basically a boomer

01:00:47.860 telling this Gen Z kids about this like

01:00:50.060 you know back when you can meet a girl

01:00:51.800 without being online so they're like I

01:00:54.180 can't help but notice we're both basically

01:00:55.800 silver fox yeah yeah you've got me by

01:00:57.860 like three years I think not much man we're

01:01:00.680 right there but um uh but yeah so we're I

01:01:04.060 know we're now it's grandpa Carl and

01:01:06.160 Oren sitting on the on the porch telling

01:01:07.800 the kids to gather around kids because

01:01:09.980 together it's happening no matter what

01:01:12.160 so um I I know it's really easy and

01:01:15.500 flippant to just say start a family or

01:01:18.540 you know find find find a woman you

01:01:20.900 know whatever like I know that's not an

01:01:22.980 easy thing I'm not trying to belittle

01:01:24.480 that at all guys but there's just no

01:01:29.060 other good answer for this like if you

01:01:34.060 can find a religious tradition if you can

01:01:36.940 find God do so if you can have a family

01:01:40.860 do so if you can't do the best to get

01:01:44.140 yourself in a position where you can do

01:01:45.920 at least one of those two things if if

01:01:48.300 nothing else build a community of people

01:01:51.200 around something beyond yourself and

01:01:53.900 above beyond some kind of pop you know

01:01:56.640 entertainment and if you can do those

01:02:00.260 things it will help you weather this

01:02:03.880 thing the only way out is through like I

01:02:06.080 think that's absolutely right and but I

01:02:08.700 think there there is a good news good

01:02:10.940 news is that the things the forces

01:02:13.120 around us can't go on forever they will

01:02:15.900 fall apart and the people who plant seeds

01:02:18.520 now will prepare things for those down

01:02:21.840 the road you know you you plant the

01:02:23.280 trees now even though you won't sit

01:02:25.000 under them because at some point your

01:02:26.680 children will and you have to have that

01:02:29.460 mentality it's not an easy place to be but

01:02:32.560 it is an essential you you are part of a

01:02:35.200 cycle of history and you have to find

01:02:37.380 your meaning and place in it and this I

01:02:40.020 think is is a really key part of it I like

01:02:42.560 Alexander Dugan has a has a bit where he

01:02:46.940 says you know modernity was about the

01:02:49.160 death of God but after the death of God and

01:02:52.440 post-modernity people ask the question the

01:02:55.420 death of who because there's no reference

01:02:57.440 point and at that point you're actually in a

01:03:00.680 position where the world can be re-enchanted

01:03:02.960 where you're no longer struggling these

01:03:05.060 things because you've actually gone

01:03:06.660 through the crucible and on the other side

01:03:09.800 there's a possibility of the resurrection of

01:03:12.060 meaning and purpose and spirituality that

01:03:15.540 on boards this understanding of modernity and

01:03:18.260 liberalism but takes it into a direction that

01:03:20.520 is more robust and meaningful and the you

01:03:24.020 know I can't help but think of a line from

01:03:26.040 Fight Club being that old about how Tyler

01:03:29.980 Dugan is just lecturing about how we don't

01:03:34.220 have a great war to fight how a great war

01:03:36.280 is a spiritual war against consumerism and

01:03:38.360 modernity and looking back I remember

01:03:41.420 watching this when I was about 21 years old

01:03:42.980 in the cinema or something like that and I

01:03:44.800 was just like yeah that's a profound man

01:03:46.620 but obviously I didn't understand what was

01:03:49.360 being said in that line and it's only in

01:03:52.240 later years when I'm like actually that

01:03:54.100 genuinely is the problem because I mean at

01:03:55.540 the time I could still find a woman who was

01:03:57.640 respectable enough to make a wife right and

01:04:00.140 it is genuinely harrowing to watch young

01:04:03.340 men now who are good upright decent young

01:04:06.160 men and and they message me all the time

01:04:09.080 saying you would not believe the options

01:04:11.620 that I have you wouldn't pick a single one

01:04:13.540 and I can't pick any of them what am I

01:04:16.380 supposed to do all right man I do not know

01:04:19.040 I do not have an answer for you but I

01:04:22.020 totally co-sign what you said that even

01:04:24.640 if it seems impossible well the great

01:04:27.720 struggle for you is to do that that is

01:04:30.340 the great struggle that you have to face

01:04:32.100 I'm afraid and there's nothing we can do

01:04:34.600 to change that and there's no other way

01:04:36.960 around it like you say you've got to go

01:04:38.660 through absolutely well we have some

01:04:41.460 questions of the people stacking up here

01:04:43.000 is there anything that we didn't get to

01:04:44.240 that you want to touch on before we go

01:04:45.560 over there I think things a good good

01:04:47.200 discussion all right well I think

01:04:49.260 everyone knows where to find what you're

01:04:51.080 doing but just in case can you let people

01:04:53.160 know what they should be checking out

01:04:54.640 see more of Carl well I would suggest

01:04:56.740 going to lotuses.com which is doing very

01:04:59.080 well thank you and you can follow me on

01:05:01.680 Twitter sargon of a cad absolutely yeah

01:05:05.640 they demonetized you guys on YouTube yeah

01:05:07.820 they did but yeah so we were we were

01:05:10.020 expecting it I yeah totally but it's still

01:05:12.700 guys just remember you know take care of

01:05:14.380 people you know if you find the content

01:05:16.220 valuable absolutely just understand those

01:05:18.760 things aren't automatic and if you if you

01:05:21.360 want alternatives you got to support them

01:05:22.960 all right let's jump in here real quick

01:05:25.040 new golf for $20 or and Carl are you

01:05:29.700 familiar with Augusto Del Nose's work

01:05:32.540 specifically the problem of atheism the

01:05:35.200 Christian view of man views man as a

01:05:37.000 necessary relationship with God

01:05:38.680 contingent one with society Marxism flips

01:05:42.120 this from my inability to pronounce the

01:05:44.120 gentleman's name you can probably tell I am

01:05:45.640 unfamiliar but it does sound like a good

01:05:49.160 work I'm not familiar with it but it's

01:05:53.420 interesting how he is right that Marxism

01:05:56.340 puts man in a necessary relationship with

01:05:58.160 society I haven't read it but it's

01:06:03.720 interesting all right let's move on here

01:06:07.380 for 10 euros selfish neuron what is worse

01:06:12.880 liberalism Yarvin's model or democracy

01:06:15.460 AA's model or something deeper like

01:06:17.680 mismatch of biology human nature and

01:06:20.180 lightning ideals or even Uncle Ted was

01:06:22.840 right that's quite a wish mishmash there

01:06:25.860 what's worse I am ultimately it comes down

01:06:31.280 to the enlightenment ideals failing to

01:06:33.640 understand the reality of human beings

01:06:35.460 right and that's a base of all and to be

01:06:39.200 really fair guys I know it's is we have an

01:06:41.680 incredible force of hindsight we are not in

01:06:46.700 the situation these people were in we had

01:06:48.520 not lived under oppression we had in in the

01:06:51.580 way that they had we had not lived in the

01:06:53.900 kind of experiences they did and so it is

01:06:56.400 really easy to look back from a relatively

01:07:00.140 materially plentiful modernity and say how

01:07:04.160 could anyone fall for all of these things

01:07:05.860 how could anyone be so foolish as to assume

01:07:08.180 but you got to remember a lot of these

01:07:10.400 people were very smart and they were making

01:07:13.160 assumptions that made perfect sense at the

01:07:14.700 time and it you know many of them yielded

01:07:18.660 many benefits from which we now enjoy and so

01:07:22.280 just you know remember at the end of the day

01:07:24.420 while it's easy to be hard on people in

01:07:26.840 retrospect you know understand that all of

01:07:30.700 these things are connected they're all of

01:07:32.320 their time they are connected to history and

01:07:35.240 and great forces around them and you are to

01:07:38.360 the things that that will seem obvious to

01:07:40.420 people in 200 years uh when that had been

01:07:43.020 obvious to you so i think a really strong

01:07:46.600 example of that is almost everyone that we've

01:07:49.160 referenced today uh lived before anesthetic

01:07:52.360 imagine that right so it's not that the

01:07:56.200 enlightenment and science and liberalism have

01:07:58.560 not done good things uh it's that we didn't

01:08:02.060 realize what was going to be lost along the

01:08:03.760 way and there's no really it's kind of unfair to

01:08:07.160 have expected them to have known that in

01:08:08.520 advance as well you know even though as

01:08:10.660 berkeley was saying well there are there are

01:08:12.280 people pointing out the hang on a second

01:08:14.200 there are there are problems here and it's

01:08:16.360 like yeah but uh the solution seemed necessary i

01:08:20.300 think right and and you know again this is

01:08:22.960 why i think demestra is so powerful carlisle

01:08:25.600 is so powerful because these were guys

01:08:27.160 writing around the inception of this stuff

01:08:29.040 they are more contemporary and so i think

01:08:32.180 their objections hold more weight uh because

01:08:34.700 they are people who who are prescient about

01:08:37.000 the problems that would follow um and many of

01:08:40.180 those are things that uh to be fair like

01:08:42.880 especially with carlisle that um kind of uh

01:08:46.040 conservatives or right-wingers today uh would

01:08:48.620 have a hard time admitting when he talks about

01:08:50.700 the the grinding human toll that will come from

01:08:53.060 liberalism and capitalism things that i think a

01:08:55.920 lot of people would would uh would be scared to

01:08:58.400 to look at today uh from the right so just

01:09:01.020 remember again that those you know those things

01:09:03.940 are not easy to to understand but they are

01:09:06.620 connected and those people are going through

01:09:07.980 crucibles that that you don't have to go

01:09:09.880 through you're sitting at the end of what was

01:09:11.920 a benefit of a movement and saying well here

01:09:13.920 are the weak points so yeah even if i think

01:09:16.740 those are worth pointing out and significant

01:09:18.140 that that is a good thing to keep in mind

01:09:20.060 all right david here once again thank you very

01:09:23.280 much sure uh should the right build new

01:09:25.920 institutions or simply take them back in the

01:09:27.980 case of a new right is in uh indeed my

01:09:30.360 opinion as the conservatives are too weak sadly

01:09:33.820 uh yeah i think you do need a new right i think

01:09:36.220 you do need a movement that is outside of

01:09:38.160 traditional uh conservatism uh the gop uh you

01:09:42.300 know uh is not going to save you guys if

01:09:44.720 you're sitting around waiting for uh

01:09:46.620 conservative political parties uh to kind of

01:09:49.040 do uh do their thing that's that's never

01:09:51.160 going to happen i don't think entryism works

01:09:53.560 for the most part uh for the right now i think

01:09:55.720 you do need parallel institutions you need

01:09:57.980 do need institutions and alternatives that

01:10:00.440 provide something new and different um

01:10:03.400 eventually at some point those might turn

01:10:05.160 into the establishment institutions that's

01:10:07.540 kind of the goal so in that way you could

01:10:09.760 replace them but i don't think you're just

01:10:11.200 going to step in to say like the current fbi in

01:10:14.180 the united states and turn that ship around

01:10:16.120 that they know what they're about and they're

01:10:17.700 not going to be changing that i just want to

01:10:20.260 add though both are important right entryism

01:10:22.960 where you can uh build build institutions where

01:10:27.280 you must right so um both but you are right we

01:10:32.140 are going to need to build the institutions well

01:10:34.460 and i think this is again where it's a failure of

01:10:37.460 understanding i think uh regionalism versus you

01:10:40.540 know centralization uh you might be able to enter

01:10:43.660 into institutions locally or regionally that you

01:10:47.780 otherwise could not at a national level so again i live

01:10:50.980 in florida i live under the beneficence of king

01:10:53.100 desantis um and in florida because we did not have a

01:10:57.420 deep state apparatus uh ron desantis was able

01:11:01.240 basically able to walk in and just conquer institution

01:11:04.600 after institution inside the florida uh ecosystem

01:11:07.860 because of that so just because you know you can't

01:11:11.540 enter an institution on the national level and

01:11:13.400 completely reform it from the top down

01:11:15.080 doesn't mean that you can't gain control of the

01:11:17.660 school board or a sheriff's seat or something

01:11:20.200 and reform that institution and make a very significant difference for the

01:11:24.360 place that you and your family live

01:11:25.800 all right we got creeper weirdo here for a ten dollars thank you very much

01:11:30.340 sir uh people want big important things god family nation and

01:11:33.960 uh and uh sorry and small fun distractions movie books uh video games etc

01:11:39.880 the two contradicts sometimes but that's what people want so yeah i think

01:11:44.200 it's can i can i take it i think this is interesting like this this hits on

01:11:48.100 something i've been thinking about recently because these things are not

01:11:50.780 separate you know um the question is the the the question

01:11:55.700 is of order and liberty right they want the order of god family and nation and

01:11:59.980 the liberty that that provides to enjoy movies books and video games etc

01:12:04.340 uh in the comfort and safety of having the established order

01:12:08.020 and i was reading scrutin the other day

01:12:11.560 just because i enjoy reading scrutin because he's nice to read

01:12:14.640 and uh he makes a good point that the the the main sort of dichotomy intention

01:12:19.880 in modern politics is kind of down to to an assumption that look from the

01:12:25.060 liberal perspective order comes from liberty but from the

01:12:28.060 conservative perspective liberty comes from order

01:12:30.220 and it's demonstrable that the liberal assumption is wrong

01:12:34.140 right it's demonstrable like they they assume that in the state of nature they

01:12:38.240 have perfect liberty and therefore they come together to form an order

01:12:40.940 well that's not true that's never how things have been and actually uh what

01:12:45.380 they would if we look back historically you what the liberal would judge to be

01:12:48.720 a hideously oppressive hierarchical society existed before the liberty that the

01:12:55.440 liberal eventually uh molds it into right into into the modern world where we

01:13:01.020 have too much liberty and so the conservative position that liberty comes

01:13:06.060 from order is undoubtedly true and order does not come from liberty

01:13:10.480 uh it is in fact um just the other way around

01:13:14.200 and so the the conservatives have got quite a strong um

01:13:17.600 thing to stand on their foundation stand on there

01:13:20.580 uh by saying look you do have to have the big things

01:13:24.140 before you can have the fun distractions uh but the fun distractions come after you

01:13:29.460 establish the big things and the big things themselves

01:13:31.220 are made up of small things like the family the nation uh they they are scaling

01:13:36.960 things and once you have them correct once you can be

01:13:41.040 a decent family man and be uh appropriately patriotic to your country you have the

01:13:46.860 fun distractions then you can go and grill that's literally the end goal right so

01:13:50.740 these aren't necessarily intention and it's just about the way that we look at how

01:13:54.960 these are constructed that's important i think

01:13:56.760 it's hard to describe to people because like you understand it theoretically but until you've

01:14:02.560 done it it's hard to describe to people the joy of passing a hobby that you love

01:14:07.680 onto a child it it sounds so insignificant but it is really truly one of the like the great

01:14:16.340 joys of life and this is part of the experience like this is part of the thing yes you have to

01:14:23.440 have the family you have to have a nation of stability you have to have a god

01:14:27.360 that ties you to these things before you then have the family which you can pass these things

01:14:32.700 on to but when you do it will be almost as significant as the other things you are doing

01:14:38.220 in a way honestly right so one one of the things i am is a stern disciplinarian when it comes

01:14:46.740 to playing video games uh i am worse than communist china for letting my children play the video

01:14:51.520 games right which sucks because i love playing video games and what's more is i love playing

01:14:56.940 video games with my son and so i've got a desk just next to this one uh in which uh for a few

01:15:03.420 hours on the weekends uh we will sit and play some video games together and it's the best part of my

01:15:08.740 week and i look forward to every week right and the thing is he looks forward to it as well because

01:15:12.660 he loves playing the video games and so i use this as a method of keeping him in line if you do

01:15:18.520 something naughty no video games this weekend and it always kind of breaks my heart when he does do

01:15:23.320 something naughty because then you don't get to do it yeah exactly yeah exactly because then i don't

01:15:27.740 get to play video games either and that's the hardest thing is it's like it's like realizing that

01:15:32.020 the discipline of your child is more important than your enjoyment of a moment with that like

01:15:38.040 that's actually way harder than some of the other stuff that people don't realize but sorry i

01:15:41.600 didn't know no no you exactly you're exactly right and you just exactly finished the thought

01:15:45.440 because that was completely correct it can be heartbreaking yeah but um but you are exactly

01:15:50.780 right passing on the things you love to your children has a genuine magic about it and like

01:15:56.060 40k is again another great i was wondering when we were getting here yeah we were gonna get there

01:16:00.340 because man the the so when when i first me and my son first started playing with necrons and space

01:16:05.740 marines that came in the box i really wanted thousand suns so i got the thousand suns codex and when my son

01:16:10.680 first saw it man the look on his face he was like daddy can these be for me i was like oh no

01:16:15.020 yeah i wanted those you know and he was just like blown away by it so you know i got him

01:16:20.280 chaos demons instead but like there's genuine magic there and i'll never forget the face you

01:16:26.080 know he was like it was the you can't describe it until it's happened to you uh but man when it

01:16:31.680 happens to you it's just genuinely the best thing the best thing absolutely yeah and i i think so i

01:16:36.360 think it there is a there's a no fun brigade that runs around on twitter and stuff you know these

01:16:41.720 people oh how could you you know play these games how could you do this stuff you should only be

01:16:46.380 lifting weights and earning money and and and whatever but uh but yeah don't listen to those

01:16:52.100 people like yes order yourself correctly go after the big things first but don't lie to yourself about

01:16:57.500 the essential nature of the small things because when you do get to share those that will be something

01:17:02.540 that's beautiful totally all right so we've got uh coney current year very nice well done uh for

01:17:08.640 five pounds here uh former new atheist here where uh where uh were we to return to christianity

01:17:15.100 would it stop another death of god situation in society that nietzsche pointed to again an excellent

01:17:20.160 question and i think a legitimate challenge to religious people that's kind of why i uh mentioned

01:17:26.640 kind of dugan's uh post-modern religious uh moment uh where you move beyond the death of god and into

01:17:33.960 a situation where this is kind of no longer the struggle this is no kind of the defining under

01:17:38.460 the the disenchantment of the world is no longer the defining feature of kind of your epoch and you

01:17:44.140 move into one in which i think you're asking different questions because you understand that the death of god

01:17:49.140 was not a positive step for your society and you move into something that that onboards that and so

01:17:55.940 you're right that i don't think i think that religion will shift it will be eternal because

01:18:01.780 its truths are eternal um but i think there will be an approach that will be somewhat different

01:18:07.060 onboarding the lessons of modernity and post-modernity when we kind of turn that corner

01:18:11.620 i don't really have a lot to add to that it's it is i just feel bad for nietzsche to be honest

01:18:20.260 like the the the misunderstood uh like prophet of modern age you know oh he's a nihilist no

01:18:28.240 shut up you know it was not a good thing that god was dead to me yeah well that's that's what

01:18:34.780 happens when people read a quote and that's all they know about you know precisely or even half a

01:18:39.500 quote really with that one he talks about the the blood you can never wash away from your yeah but

01:18:44.140 anyway and to be honest with you nietzsche did make himself deliberately impenetrable

01:18:47.940 and i tell you it took me years to be able to actually read anything that he'd written

01:18:51.600 so i actually don't blame people for not having read it um you know maybe there's a question about

01:18:57.440 methods of delivery there nietzsche yeah it's still a slot for me when i get into it i'm still it's

01:19:03.020 not still not something i enjoy reading even though yeah yeah uh all right here uh johan richardson

01:19:09.320 999 thank you very much i'd sooner in uh interpret anglo-american liberty as a function of the

01:19:15.160 reformation rather than the enlightenment luther and cromer republics uh explain more of what

01:19:20.560 historically made free men uh many people uh will make a similar argument that's not the first time

01:19:26.460 i've heard that one but what do you think carl

01:19:27.960 not that you have to formulate a incredibly no no yeah that is a deep a large question there but

01:19:35.440 there's there's a part of me that thinks that maybe it's not even worth separating anything

01:19:43.040 when it comes to this sort of uh the historical trend because

01:19:49.060 you can see the same impulses and trends have been happening for literally hundreds of years

01:19:58.060 before anything we would call liberalism and it was probably inevitable just given like geographic

01:20:04.140 circumstance and the procedure of events that something like this would end up happening

01:20:10.420 uh but then you start getting into a kind of deterministic frame where nothing that happens

01:20:16.880 is changeable and it was all inevitable and you can never identify a starting point for anything and i

01:20:22.900 don't really like getting into those sort of discussions because it kind of takes away the

01:20:26.160 agency of the person examining it right and so and it kind of implies that we were not responsible

01:20:31.420 for anything as well i don't like that either so you know i i mean you you definitely probably could

01:20:37.100 point to luther and cromwell but then like you know well it's kind of the dramatic view on personal

01:20:42.460 responsibility and industry and blah blah blah and then you get into other conversations aren't really

01:20:46.860 very productive in my opinion so i try to avoid them fair enough yeah i'm always in a position where

01:20:52.060 like i don't like the deterministic view but then i just keep staring at everything spangly gets right

01:20:56.440 i'm like well this gets harder and harder to disagree with all right um cody here again thank you very

01:21:03.620 much sir is liberalism just the ideology of merchant rule so yeah i mean for for there there's certainly

01:21:09.460 a huge part to that right and but merchant rule what does that mean it really means the alienation

01:21:14.180 of things right the ability of to to move things and make them quickly interchangeable um that's if you've

01:21:21.040 ever read nick land's meltdown that's basically just as while it seems indecipherable if you just read it

01:21:26.740 by understanding the beginning it's just him explaining merchant rule uh then it quickly becomes

01:21:31.380 far more understandable um so so in many ways yes it it is um and money power again to to reference

01:21:39.000 spangler is something that always rules at kind of the the late winter stage of civilizations uh so that

01:21:45.860 should really become you know something that's not too surprising if you're kind of following that pattern

01:21:50.740 i i think there's a there's an argument to be made that it's not as bad as it sounds at least in the

01:21:55.700 time that it existed because you didn't have international conglomerate corporations that owned

01:22:02.860 everything in your country most well unless it was the unless it was the east indian trading company

01:22:08.100 sure unless you're in india but but you know when napoleon's like well england's a nation of

01:22:13.460 shopkeepers he wasn't wrong you know most most people owned a small business and they they ran it

01:22:18.520 themselves and so they had their own sphere of independence and uh productivity that was closely

01:22:26.360 linked to the success of their own country and so being you know having a merchant ideology wasn't

01:22:32.120 necessarily a bad thing in the time and place of course we lived 200 years on from that and uh now

01:22:37.840 everything's owned by black rock so yeah that's the thing again like if if you view history as a like a

01:22:44.840 series of connected mistakes that are keeping you from progress then you can see how this is a problem

01:22:51.240 but if you don't have this whiggish view of history if you understand that these are these are cycles

01:22:57.100 these are things that all civilizations go through these are inevitable patterns of humanity and social

01:23:02.200 organization then it's less about them being good or bad in and of themselves as part of of the growth

01:23:09.120 and maturity and then eventually aging of a society i think that merchant you know power is gonna come

01:23:16.080 i think the reason we're seeing it's you know bad effects now is that our classes work so hard to continue

01:23:24.080 it beyond its natural life cycle and the reason it looks so ugly and deformed now is it's being kind of

01:23:29.520 kept alive on life support through the most drastic use of uh of kind of uh state and ideological power

01:23:35.280 uh available but eventually it too will pass and a new cycle will begin again and merchant power will

01:23:41.680 transform into something else and i think that so so so there there are highlights of each one of

01:23:46.480 these phases and i think it's just a mistake to look at any one of them and say this is inherently wrong

01:23:50.960 and if we could just defend against this then it would be all up from here like i don't think that's

01:23:54.560 how it works i mean imagine if you're living in like you know 19th century england in a small town

01:23:59.120 and everyone you know owns their own shop you'd be in favor of that right you that's the conservative

01:24:04.640 dream in america right that's what people talk about when they talk about america yeah this

01:24:09.040 benefits all of my friends and family and local community for for this ideology to be in ascendance

01:24:15.600 so you would agree with it it would be morally correct because you're not thinking 200 years down

01:24:19.840 the line how will this look of course you're not thinking that right and then then this is why

01:24:25.760 the encoding of knowledge and wisdom in traditions is always essential because even when you move through

01:24:31.520 these patterns if you can hold closer to those things that your society has kind of found valuable

01:24:38.880 encoded in something deep and meaningful then you're much more likely to reap the benefits of

01:24:43.920 where you are rather than falling off of that entirely and going too far taking that to its its logical

01:24:50.240 conclusion spinning out of control to where we're at at this moment i think and just just a thing to add

01:24:54.640 on to that and that that that begins with humility actually absolutely that which is we i we i knew

01:25:00.800 i knew you'd agree but like a lot of people don't think about it right they're not it's not at the

01:25:04.800 forefront of their mind and i have to say for many years it wasn't at the forefront of my mind either

01:25:08.800 you know but there is a humility that builds up in these traditions because they have been through the

01:25:12.720 cycles you know the the traditions have survived the cycles the rise and the fall and so

01:25:17.920 beginning with i don't know is actually a much more reassuring and successful position and i'm sure

01:25:27.120 we've got it figured out this time uh no no you don't yeah i did both both chesterton and lewis

01:25:33.840 captured this really well you know democracy is or tradition is the democracy of the dead you know and

01:25:39.360 then lewis talking about uh chronological snobbery you know us looking yeah looking at everyone behind

01:25:44.400 us and realizing you know perhaps they they might have something some wisdom to say we're not we're

01:25:48.560 not better just because we're further along the timeline all right guys i've come to really hate

01:25:53.280 the wig view of history yeah it's it is it is absolutely the worst yeah it's just wrong it's just

01:25:58.800 wrong you know all right guys well i think we got through all of the questions here thank you everybody

01:26:04.640 who came by i think this was a great talk uh again carl thank you so much for coming on it's always

01:26:09.280 a blast to talk with you my pleasure man really really good to have uh to have a conversation on this

01:26:14.000 with you absolutely all right guys well if it's your first time by the channel make sure that you

01:26:17.840 go ahead and subscribe like all that stuff and of course if you want to get these broadcasts as

01:26:22.400 podcasts you can check out the orton mcintyre podcast on all your favorite podcast platforms

01:26:27.280 when you do that make sure that you leave a rating or review over there and uh guys again really

01:26:32.320 appreciate it lots of great discussion great questions thank you for coming by and as always

01:26:37.360 we'll talk to you next time

The Auron MacIntyre Show - June 09, 2023

Does Liberalism Dissolve Societies？｜ Guest： Carl Benjamin ｜ 6⧸9⧸23

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