The Auron MacIntyre Show - End of the Enlightenment ｜ Guest： Jonathan Pageau

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00:00:30.580 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:32.000 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.280 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:38.140 So Jonathan Peugeot is somebody who gets into the symbolism behind things.

00:00:42.960 He talks about narratives.

00:00:44.440 He talks about what it's like to look at this world through many different lenses.

00:00:49.160 And I know many people are very excited to have him on.

00:00:51.920 So thank you for coming on, man.

00:00:53.560 Yeah, thanks for having me.

00:00:54.560 This is great.

00:00:55.280 Looking forward to it.

00:00:56.880 Absolutely.

00:00:57.200 So I think a lot of people who have found your work talking about, you know, different

00:01:02.420 ways to understand the world through narratives, through story structures, but you have a very

00:01:07.500 interesting kind of approach to this, the way you came into this space.

00:01:11.860 You're an icon carver.

00:01:13.440 You're an Orthodox Christian.

00:01:15.000 You were doing that.

00:01:15.820 A lot of people learned about you, I think, probably from Jordan Peterson.

00:01:20.220 But obviously you have a very deep knowledge.

00:01:22.420 It's not just your artistic ability.

00:01:24.060 You obviously have an understanding of the different stories and the way they connect to meaning.

00:01:29.180 How did you get here?

00:01:29.980 What was that route that took you to this place where you're not just an artist, but you're also talking about all these things?

00:01:34.700 Yeah, so, I mean, I studied fine art in school, but already then I was interested in reading.

00:01:42.080 I read a lot of philosophy, even during my degree in art.

00:01:46.460 And by the end of my degree, well, maybe not by the end, after my degree, maybe like a year after my degree,

00:01:52.180 I realized that I really wanted nothing to do both with contemporary art, but also with academia in general.

00:01:58.680 Because a lot of the crazy stuff that people see now or that I've seen in the last 10 years that has been happening in academia,

00:02:05.800 you can imagine that in the art world, it was already there in the 90s when I was in school.

00:02:13.120 And so I could already see all this stuff coming over the hill, and I really wanted nothing to do with it.

00:02:19.300 And so I left academia, I left contemporary art, and started, let's say, studying things on my own.

00:02:24.600 I did do some theology, study in theology, and did a few things here and there, but mostly it was through my own reading and with my brother.

00:02:31.360 Both him and I did extensive reading and researching and thinking in our 20s.

00:02:38.840 And then there was a big loop.

00:02:40.340 I discovered orthodoxy, and I realized that in orthodoxy, I could be an artist in a way that made sense,

00:02:46.640 in a way that integrated the different aspects of my life together.

00:02:50.540 And so that's when I became orthodox, also because of the theology, because of the mystical aspect of the theology of the Eastern Church.

00:02:56.960 But all of that time, so it's just kind of funny because people kind of knew me, or Jordan met me as a carver,

00:03:03.760 but I never saw myself as, really, as a carver.

00:03:07.360 I never saw myself as being a certain thing.

00:03:09.920 I see myself as having a way of seeing the world, and carving is one way of implementing it into my life,

00:03:16.060 which is, you know, I see the necessity to kind of integrate these different aspects and different levels together in their purpose and in their meeting.

00:03:24.580 And for me, icon carving was a way to do that, both to plunge into the language of the church, the visual language of Christianity,

00:03:31.500 and then to actually be there in the workshop, you know, hammering away.

00:03:35.860 It's kind of like how people do jujitsu, you know, or do martial arts and feel like it's a way to understand reality in your body, right?

00:03:42.940 It's not just up here, but it's like being facing oppositional forces, understanding the resistance of matter,

00:03:49.460 understanding the desire to kind of, to, let's say, to shape things in a certain direction.

00:03:54.500 So that's the way to understand that, is that I don't really actually feel like I'm first and foremost an artist, actually.

00:04:01.880 One of the things that I found very interesting about you is the way that you approach, I think,

00:04:07.660 a lot of the political or cultural issues that people have today,

00:04:11.760 the way that they look at the world.

00:04:13.400 A lot of people, I think, are often scared of people who don't directly take things in a hyper-rational way.

00:04:20.380 And one of the things that I saw was, you did a tweet, let me just read it,

00:04:24.100 because it was a little poem.

00:04:27.120 It was,

00:04:27.380 Rock-a-bye lock on the treetop, when the wind blows, the enlightenment will rock,

00:04:31.800 and when the bow breaks, the enlightenment will fall,

00:04:33.880 and down will become freedom, the enlightenment and all.

00:04:37.420 And when you posted that tweet, it got some pretty interesting reactions.

00:04:42.720 Jane Lindsay immediately called you a fascist, which endeared me to you,

00:04:47.600 because Lindsay likes to spurg out at a lot of people who aren't huge enlightenment fans.

00:04:52.640 But can you explain that tweet a little bit?

00:04:54.900 Why did that strike at the core of so many people?

00:04:57.620 Yeah, well, the conversation had already begun, by the way.

00:05:00.480 And so Lindsay appeared on one of my tweets where I was talking about something happening at OpenAI,

00:05:06.860 right, during the kind of weird coup that was going on, but we don't know exactly what it is.

00:05:10.340 But during that moment, there were some articles being posted about the new leader,

00:05:15.440 the interim leader of OpenAI.

00:05:17.240 And there was one in the future that talked about all these weird rituals that they were doing at OpenAI

00:05:21.780 and how they made like little statuettes, and they were kind of invoking the true AI

00:05:26.740 and trying to banish the old AI with all these kind of weird little rituals.

00:05:30.700 And I was just pointing out how it's like the world of the future is religious, folks.

00:05:35.860 Like you just can't help it.

00:05:37.060 It's going to happen.

00:05:37.900 So the question is, which way do you want it to go?

00:05:41.220 And then Lindsay said, he said something like,

00:05:44.060 don't do the inevitability spell.

00:05:46.720 That's bullshit.

00:05:47.600 And then I started to answer and then went back and forth.

00:05:49.740 And then he obviously did James Lindsay and exploded and started insulting me

00:05:53.300 and doing all that stuff.

00:05:54.520 But that was mostly that particular poem was accompanied with an image,

00:05:59.040 which was a carving by Goya.

00:06:02.320 So Goya made this carving called The Sleep of Reason Produces Monster

00:06:07.900 or The Dream of Reason Produces Monster.

00:06:10.020 And it's an image of a man at a desk.

00:06:11.820 He's working on some text, but he's fallen asleep.

00:06:14.300 And then there are all these kind of monsters that are appearing behind him.

00:06:17.820 And my my contention is something that I've talked about several times,

00:06:21.560 criticizing Steven Pinker about this as well,

00:06:23.360 is that there's something about enlightenment rationalism,

00:06:25.940 which just ignores an aspect of reality, which just ignores it.

00:06:30.560 It's like it pretends as if it doesn't exist or if it's just something that has to be banished.

00:06:34.140 But that aspect of reality, the unreasonable aspect of reality,

00:06:38.760 whichever way you see it,

00:06:40.160 is part of our perception and our experience and part of reality.

00:06:44.640 And so the enlightenment in some ways,

00:06:47.640 my contention is that the enlightenment produced a shadow within itself

00:06:50.920 and that there is in the enlightenment already right at the outset,

00:06:54.600 you have both a kind of rationalism,

00:06:56.600 but then also you have alchemy and magical systems and secret societies.

00:07:00.680 And all of these two things just happen at the same time.

00:07:03.640 Freemasonry is a byproduct of the enlightenment, right?

00:07:06.680 It's like at the same time, it's all happening.

00:07:09.100 Rosicrucianism, all this occultism are the kind of shadow of the enlightenment,

00:07:13.620 but not just the shadow, but deeply ingrained with it, right?

00:07:18.120 And so many of the like Descartes spent a large part of his life

00:07:21.560 trying to contact Rosicrucians and was in contact with Rosicrucians.

00:07:25.480 And was, you know,

00:07:26.040 there was this discussion between the more kind of esoteric occultist aspect

00:07:30.640 of the enlightenment and the hyper-rationalist aspect of the enlightenment.

00:07:34.640 And one of the contentions of some of the more English enlightenment types

00:07:39.800 in the modern world is that I think they're trying to rewrite history

00:07:42.280 and tell us that there's this enlightenment,

00:07:45.820 which is basically just in English enlightenment, to be honest,

00:07:48.420 and then everybody else is counter-enlightenment.

00:07:51.140 So like calling Kant counter-enlightenment is just like,

00:07:54.040 this is just, I mean,

00:07:55.700 this is just trying to rewrite the narrative for your own purpose

00:07:58.880 in order to kind of justify certain things,

00:08:01.220 but it's not a reasonable, it's not a reasonable position.

00:08:03.740 And so I was poking a little bit and trying to say,

00:08:06.220 it's like, you know,

00:08:07.680 Markit Saad is an enlightenment thinker.

00:08:09.460 I don't know what to tell you.

00:08:10.940 And there are many of those figures right at the outset

00:08:13.680 that have those two parts to it.

00:08:16.160 And you can't understand the American,

00:08:18.300 the institution of the American state

00:08:20.220 without understanding the relationship between the enlightenment

00:08:22.520 and the secret societies,

00:08:24.340 the relationship between the enlightenment

00:08:25.560 and the occultism that was pervasive at the same time.

00:08:28.280 If you just say, oh, no,

00:08:29.220 we'll just ignore that occultist stuff.

00:08:31.480 Well, it's just going to come back.

00:08:32.740 And by the time you realize what's going on,

00:08:36.020 you'll have your AI God, like, you know,

00:08:38.080 ruling over you

00:08:38.740 and you won't have understood how you got there.

00:08:40.800 So that was basically the point of that.

00:08:43.820 Yeah, it feels like there's a very weird PR thing

00:08:45.920 that happens with the enlightenment

00:08:47.560 where they just want to keep this idea

00:08:50.340 that it's hyper-rationalism

00:08:51.540 and the enlightenment means science

00:08:53.300 or the enlightenment means rationality.

00:08:55.900 And that's the only thing that it's attached to.

00:08:58.060 And those things are owned specifically by the enlightenment.

00:09:00.940 And so any questioning of it,

00:09:02.860 any acknowledgement that we're moving beyond it,

00:09:05.140 that there might be aspects of it

00:09:08.100 that are limiting or false,

00:09:10.200 those are direct attacks on rationality

00:09:12.640 and science and reason.

00:09:14.160 And therefore, you know,

00:09:15.700 there's no way you could ever counter this

00:09:18.640 and be a good person

00:09:19.720 or any way you could draw up

00:09:21.720 any kind of conclusions that are beyond it

00:09:24.000 and be a good person.

00:09:24.760 And I think that's why so many people panic

00:09:26.760 when, you know, the enlightenment gets questioned.

00:09:28.920 But it's also because,

00:09:30.300 I mean, I think on the one hand,

00:09:31.240 you have to be historically honest

00:09:32.820 if you want to even have the debate.

00:09:35.020 If you start and you just say,

00:09:37.140 you say, oh, the enlightenment, you know,

00:09:38.660 and you see Pinker does it all the time.

00:09:40.580 Pinker says the enlightenment is,

00:09:42.620 it's rationalism, you know,

00:09:44.700 democracy and individualism.

00:09:45.960 You need those three,

00:09:46.760 that's the enlightenment,

00:09:47.420 that's what we want.

00:09:48.660 And then in his books,

00:09:49.660 he'll quote Locke like,

00:09:51.820 no tomorrow,

00:09:53.240 but Locke was not a democracy guy, right?

00:09:57.460 It's like he was an authoritarian

00:09:59.620 and believed in absolute monarchy

00:10:01.560 and the absolute monarchies of that period

00:10:04.040 are enlightenment phenomena.

00:10:06.500 Absolute monarchy is an enlightenment phenomena.

00:10:08.480 It is not a medieval or early modern phenomena.

00:10:11.080 It is an enlightenment phenomena

00:10:12.280 and it's because there is a conflict

00:10:14.140 between rationality and democracy.

00:10:18.100 Like, I don't know what to tell you.

00:10:20.080 It's like, oh, if you're going to,

00:10:21.380 you're going to have one and the other

00:10:22.740 and then all you're going to do

00:10:24.000 is complain that everybody votes

00:10:25.380 for the wrong person all the time

00:10:26.740 because it's like, well,

00:10:27.900 this is not a rational thing to do.

00:10:29.580 Anyways, I'm just saying that

00:10:30.980 the first thing to do is to be honest

00:10:32.760 about what happened in that time

00:10:34.760 and to be honest also about

00:10:36.080 the relationship between the,

00:10:40.020 even like in terms of Lindsay,

00:10:41.860 hermeticism, modern hermeticism

00:10:44.240 in terms of people like Böhm

00:10:46.140 and all of the esotericists

00:10:47.800 that came up in the Europe,

00:10:50.020 they're like this with the enlightenment.

00:10:52.120 It's a discussion that's happening

00:10:53.460 all through Europe.

00:10:54.520 And to just say,

00:10:55.380 all these things that I like

00:10:56.960 about the enlightenment,

00:10:57.860 they're the real thing

00:10:58.560 and all of these are the counter-enlightenment.

00:11:02.380 It's just, it's actually just,

00:11:04.120 it just doesn't hold

00:11:05.420 if you look at what happened

00:11:06.660 and how things develop.

00:11:07.780 So it's like, you know,

00:11:09.220 Voltaire praised the monarchs,

00:11:11.380 praised the absolute monarchs,

00:11:12.860 came to England

00:11:13.520 and praised Charles I

00:11:14.500 because he was an enlightenment monarch

00:11:16.280 and imposed reason on his people.

00:11:18.480 Like, you can't ignore this stuff.

00:11:20.620 Yeah, I think there really is a concern

00:11:22.560 that this will change

00:11:23.800 our political theology,

00:11:25.000 that if we don't have

00:11:26.380 kind of this current

00:11:27.780 weird PR version

00:11:30.000 instantiation of the enlightenment.

00:11:32.220 Carl Schmitt said that

00:11:33.820 basically the constitutionalism

00:11:38.200 that has come to kind of dominate

00:11:39.840 was a transfer into kind of the deism

00:11:43.280 that was popular during the time

00:11:44.840 is the removing of the need

00:11:46.260 of kind of the exception

00:11:47.900 by the divine.

00:11:50.420 You know, if you can just plan

00:11:51.400 everything out constitutionally,

00:11:53.200 you don't ever have to worry about,

00:11:54.700 you know, the intervention

00:11:55.760 of the monarch

00:11:56.600 or the intervention,

00:11:57.680 the state of exception

00:11:58.460 created by the government.

00:12:00.000 And I think that

00:12:01.440 a lot of people are worried

00:12:02.720 that if you, you know,

00:12:03.660 kind of move beyond

00:12:04.820 this very carefully

00:12:07.380 controlled story

00:12:08.820 of the enlightenment,

00:12:09.460 you might have to reconsider,

00:12:11.120 you know, certain aspects

00:12:12.900 of kind of human,

00:12:15.220 the way that social organization

00:12:16.580 is set up.

00:12:17.300 And I understand that.

00:12:18.880 But the reality is that

00:12:20.720 rationalism doesn't account

00:12:22.200 for the reason

00:12:23.520 that nations exist.

00:12:25.680 So if you're going to,

00:12:27.180 and I mean this really seriously,

00:12:29.060 that is that rationalism

00:12:30.920 doesn't account for why

00:12:32.460 a group of people

00:12:33.900 care to be joined together

00:12:35.760 in a union

00:12:36.820 and what it is

00:12:38.840 that justifies that

00:12:39.800 and what it is

00:12:40.420 that prevents that

00:12:41.200 from taking over

00:12:42.300 and becoming globalism

00:12:43.420 and so that

00:12:44.380 or just becoming

00:12:45.720 I don't know what

00:12:46.520 there is no

00:12:47.880 and so when

00:12:48.780 when people start

00:12:50.120 to ask questions

00:12:50.700 and say,

00:12:51.060 well, why are we a nation?

00:12:52.200 What makes

00:12:53.040 the Germans

00:12:55.460 or the Americans

00:12:56.140 or the Canadians

00:12:56.920 or this?

00:12:57.600 Is it just an accident?

00:12:58.800 It's just

00:12:59.100 accidents of history

00:13:00.540 that makes us a nation?

00:13:01.800 It's not something about

00:13:03.060 something we care about

00:13:04.600 in common,

00:13:05.060 something that brings us together

00:13:06.760 and that is a common

00:13:08.160 point of interest,

00:13:08.860 a common point of care

00:13:10.020 which binds us together

00:13:11.600 and so if I start

00:13:12.880 to point to that

00:13:13.600 then people just freak out

00:13:14.880 and say,

00:13:15.260 oh, it's like,

00:13:16.100 oh no,

00:13:16.440 now we've got ethno-nationalism

00:13:17.660 down the street.

00:13:18.900 Now we've got

00:13:19.600 Christian nationalism

00:13:20.600 coming at us

00:13:21.720 but you still haven't

00:13:22.660 answered the question

00:13:23.660 of why it is

00:13:25.200 that you're a nation

00:13:25.940 and how it is

00:13:27.180 that you're going to

00:13:27.640 fight globalism

00:13:28.360 if you think

00:13:28.800 that's what you should be doing

00:13:29.880 because it seems like

00:13:31.140 actually rationalism

00:13:32.320 seems to move

00:13:33.780 towards globalism

00:13:34.800 naturally

00:13:35.380 because there is no

00:13:37.200 reason to

00:13:38.340 and even not just globalism

00:13:39.540 but ultimately

00:13:40.180 caring about things

00:13:43.580 that aren't even human

00:13:44.440 starting to think

00:13:45.640 that other things

00:13:46.280 that aren't human

00:13:46.720 should be part of your union

00:13:47.980 and so

00:13:48.680 vegetarianism

00:13:50.260 and not wanting

00:13:52.480 to hurt animals

00:13:53.240 and then ultimately

00:13:54.300 AI as being

00:13:56.880 intelligent beings

00:13:58.020 that need to be included

00:13:58.680 in your union

00:13:59.220 because you don't have

00:14:00.400 any way

00:14:01.120 to create

00:14:02.180 binding of care

00:14:03.600 and union

00:14:04.360 and unity

00:14:05.020 within your

00:14:05.840 kind of rationalistic system

00:14:07.320 the identities are

00:14:08.280 you act as if

00:14:09.140 the identities

00:14:09.580 are already given

00:14:10.380 or taken for granted

00:14:13.060 maybe is the best way

00:14:13.840 to say that

00:14:14.340 yeah I mean

00:14:15.680 it feels like

00:14:16.120 classical liberalism

00:14:17.140 is designed

00:14:17.880 to get rid of

00:14:18.540 the particulars

00:14:19.420 right

00:14:19.740 it's designed

00:14:21.060 to kind of

00:14:21.660 break down

00:14:22.540 many of those barriers

00:14:23.660 or not acknowledge

00:14:25.240 many of those things

00:14:25.940 that you're talking about

00:14:26.860 and like you said

00:14:27.780 they're very worried

00:14:28.660 about the idea

00:14:29.540 that people would start

00:14:30.560 thinking about

00:14:31.100 what would create a nation

00:14:32.020 so they just kind of

00:14:33.040 scream loud enough

00:14:34.220 like no no

00:14:35.120 like if we just

00:14:36.700 can't go that way

00:14:37.540 I don't have an answer

00:14:38.360 we can't have an answer

00:14:39.320 answers are dangerous

00:14:40.420 we have to remove

00:14:41.580 the political

00:14:42.040 we have to remove

00:14:42.680 identity

00:14:43.080 we have to remove

00:14:43.960 the idea that

00:14:44.820 there's anything beyond

00:14:46.000 kind of a rational

00:14:47.260 contract base

00:14:51.060 for any kind of nation

00:14:53.080 any type of government

00:14:54.540 because if we move

00:14:55.480 any further beyond that

00:14:56.280 we might have to

00:14:56.940 uncover some old gods

00:14:58.260 they might return

00:14:58.880 in a way

00:14:59.240 that could be terrifying

00:15:00.200 because one of the

00:15:02.000 even the basic problem

00:15:03.680 that we're seeing happen

00:15:04.600 of course again

00:15:05.880 with the problem

00:15:06.860 of liberalism

00:15:07.620 is that it takes

00:15:08.260 for granted

00:15:08.820 the individual

00:15:09.600 it takes for granted

00:15:11.020 the individual

00:15:11.600 as a unit

00:15:12.540 as a solid unit

00:15:14.080 as something

00:15:14.620 which can be

00:15:15.180 only quantified

00:15:16.020 as one

00:15:17.400 but as we

00:15:18.500 move down

00:15:19.740 the hierarchy

00:15:20.280 of qualities

00:15:20.920 and of binding

00:15:21.960 we realize

00:15:22.920 that people

00:15:23.440 are splitting up

00:15:24.420 even in themselves

00:15:25.260 so there's a

00:15:26.420 relationship

00:15:26.900 between not

00:15:27.500 understanding

00:15:28.080 how things

00:15:28.520 bind towards

00:15:29.180 one

00:15:29.560 let's say

00:15:30.400 in a nation

00:15:30.960 in a family

00:15:31.880 in any type

00:15:33.440 of group

00:15:33.820 of care

00:15:34.340 and watching

00:15:35.460 the mental

00:15:35.980 health crisis

00:15:36.800 take over

00:15:37.740 and people

00:15:38.600 identifying

00:15:39.160 with all these

00:15:40.020 little aspects

00:15:40.700 of themselves

00:15:41.240 and being tyrannized

00:15:42.520 by all these

00:15:42.980 little identity

00:15:43.980 things that are

00:15:44.680 going on in them

00:15:45.440 these things

00:15:46.480 are all related

00:15:47.400 because we

00:15:48.640 aren't capable

00:15:49.500 of

00:15:49.780 we don't

00:15:50.680 understand

00:15:52.080 how identities

00:15:53.260 work

00:15:53.680 and how identities

00:15:54.420 stack up

00:15:55.260 and how they

00:15:55.620 function

00:15:56.000 that's one of

00:15:56.900 the things

00:15:57.160 that I've been

00:15:57.540 pushing

00:15:57.900 you know

00:15:58.900 working

00:15:59.580 on recently

00:16:01.400 which is

00:16:02.000 to help people

00:16:02.580 understand

00:16:03.080 a kind of

00:16:03.460 subsidiary

00:16:04.120 idea of

00:16:05.100 identity

00:16:05.520 which

00:16:05.920 accounts for

00:16:06.980 complexity

00:16:07.740 which accounts

00:16:08.280 for multiplicity

00:16:09.020 and unity

00:16:09.420 but that happens

00:16:10.320 at first

00:16:10.640 within yourself

00:16:11.340 because you're

00:16:12.020 actually not

00:16:12.640 just one thing

00:16:13.420 you're a million

00:16:14.260 things

00:16:14.760 and those

00:16:15.600 million things

00:16:16.520 they get

00:16:17.140 bound up

00:16:17.740 into one

00:16:18.320 and that unity

00:16:19.020 exists

00:16:19.640 but it doesn't

00:16:20.480 exist just

00:16:21.280 taken for granted

00:16:22.260 there's a reason

00:16:23.600 why it exists

00:16:24.680 there's a manner

00:16:25.520 in which unity

00:16:26.140 of a person

00:16:26.860 comes together

00:16:28.000 into something

00:16:28.820 that's coherent

00:16:29.500 and if you don't

00:16:31.000 understand that

00:16:31.600 then you won't

00:16:32.120 be able to

00:16:32.540 understand how

00:16:33.100 it scales up

00:16:33.820 either

00:16:34.480 you mentioned

00:16:36.260 the kind of

00:16:36.980 the worry

00:16:37.340 of universality

00:16:38.400 that it seems

00:16:38.940 like it's going

00:16:39.640 to continue

00:16:40.200 to expand

00:16:40.880 that there

00:16:41.200 seems to be

00:16:41.780 no way

00:16:42.100 to limit it

00:16:42.820 in kind of

00:16:43.560 the current

00:16:44.020 framework

00:16:44.740 is I think

00:16:46.580 part of that

00:16:47.380 is people

00:16:48.780 are worried

00:16:49.120 about postmodernism

00:16:50.100 I've heard

00:16:50.640 you know

00:16:51.060 of course

00:16:51.940 Jordan Peterson

00:16:52.440 has talked

00:16:53.640 about in many

00:16:54.140 cases

00:16:54.440 but it seems

00:16:55.520 like a lot

00:16:56.220 of conservatives

00:16:56.940 especially

00:16:57.400 have kind of

00:16:57.880 learned to be

00:16:58.500 terrified of

00:16:59.020 the idea

00:16:59.400 of postmodernism

00:17:00.640 but in some

00:17:01.220 ways

00:17:01.520 doesn't postmodernism

00:17:03.140 allow them

00:17:03.660 to once again

00:17:04.260 draw those

00:17:05.000 boundaries

00:17:05.460 in a way

00:17:05.960 that isn't

00:17:06.620 available to them

00:17:07.600 in kind of

00:17:08.160 the current

00:17:08.780 understanding

00:17:09.320 this is the

00:17:10.600 strange

00:17:11.320 this is actually

00:17:12.280 the strange

00:17:12.820 contradiction

00:17:13.620 about postmodernism

00:17:14.800 and it's one

00:17:16.240 which I think

00:17:16.860 both Jordan Peterson

00:17:17.540 and Jim Lizzie

00:17:18.340 get absolutely

00:17:19.100 right

00:17:19.680 in the sense

00:17:20.860 that even

00:17:21.540 though I think

00:17:22.000 Jordan doesn't

00:17:22.700 understand

00:17:23.060 postmodernism

00:17:23.880 that well

00:17:24.640 James definitely

00:17:26.380 understands

00:17:26.900 postmodernism

00:17:27.560 and he

00:17:27.820 understands

00:17:28.360 that the

00:17:29.500 real thing

00:17:30.920 behind postmodernism

00:17:32.180 it's a kind

00:17:33.040 of veiled

00:17:33.620 Marxism

00:17:34.560 or at least

00:17:35.160 postmodernism

00:17:36.540 enacted

00:17:37.300 is veiled

00:17:38.420 Marxism

00:17:39.000 so you could

00:17:39.500 argue that

00:17:40.080 some of the

00:17:40.540 postmodernists

00:17:41.460 the thinkers

00:17:42.500 you know

00:17:43.360 were not

00:17:44.340 wouldn't have

00:17:45.140 identified with

00:17:45.860 communism

00:17:46.220 and that

00:17:46.700 some of

00:17:47.160 the far

00:17:47.520 left

00:17:47.900 opposed

00:17:49.020 the

00:17:49.220 postmodernists

00:17:49.840 when they

00:17:50.320 came on

00:17:51.040 the scene

00:17:51.460 that's all

00:17:51.980 true

00:17:52.340 but as soon

00:17:53.680 as it gets

00:17:54.260 enacted

00:17:54.740 it happens

00:17:56.120 using

00:17:57.040 the same

00:17:58.100 kind of

00:17:58.400 revolutionary

00:17:58.920 type of

00:17:59.860 tropes

00:18:00.220 that led

00:18:00.800 to the

00:18:01.520 kind of

00:18:01.820 communist

00:18:02.140 ideas

00:18:02.720 and so

00:18:03.100 James gets

00:18:03.900 that 100%

00:18:04.700 right

00:18:04.940 and he's

00:18:05.300 and for

00:18:06.080 all

00:18:06.340 you know

00:18:07.240 for the

00:18:07.540 fact that

00:18:08.500 I'm annoyed

00:18:09.100 that we

00:18:09.380 had this

00:18:09.720 conflict

00:18:10.080 I think

00:18:10.540 that James

00:18:11.040 is one

00:18:11.880 of the

00:18:12.140 best

00:18:12.420 people

00:18:12.760 in the

00:18:13.080 world

00:18:13.280 to help

00:18:13.700 others

00:18:14.300 understand

00:18:14.780 this

00:18:15.040 and he's

00:18:15.320 been

00:18:15.520 amazing

00:18:16.020 at doing

00:18:16.340 that

00:18:16.620 so

00:18:16.900 but

00:18:18.720 postmodernism

00:18:19.360 like by the

00:18:19.780 way I

00:18:20.140 think that

00:18:20.480 there's

00:18:20.720 some things

00:18:21.120 about

00:18:21.340 postmodernism

00:18:22.040 that are

00:18:22.540 useful

00:18:22.920 right

00:18:23.580 really

00:18:24.220 and I

00:18:24.560 and I've

00:18:24.860 said that

00:18:25.140 many times

00:18:25.800 and and

00:18:26.560 it it

00:18:27.600 has to do

00:18:28.220 mostly with

00:18:28.700 understanding

00:18:29.260 how margins

00:18:30.000 work

00:18:30.520 because one

00:18:32.220 of the

00:18:32.420 problems

00:18:32.880 of

00:18:33.260 rational

00:18:33.840 rationalism

00:18:34.620 is that

00:18:35.540 it tends

00:18:36.200 to especially

00:18:36.960 like it

00:18:38.300 tends to not

00:18:38.900 understand how

00:18:39.500 hierarchies work

00:18:40.160 because it

00:18:40.580 wants to

00:18:41.100 level things

00:18:41.800 because it

00:18:42.500 tries to

00:18:42.920 level things

00:18:43.460 it doesn't

00:18:43.840 understand how

00:18:44.440 hierarchies

00:18:44.820 work

00:18:45.020 that it

00:18:45.660 never totally

00:18:46.280 understood how

00:18:47.160 identities have

00:18:48.660 margins and

00:18:49.460 exceptions

00:18:49.900 and so you

00:18:51.220 have this

00:18:51.680 swing you

00:18:52.280 could say

00:18:52.660 in the

00:18:53.860 modern world

00:18:54.520 that that

00:18:55.580 that accounts

00:18:56.220 for a lot

00:18:56.540 of things

00:18:56.840 even genocide

00:18:57.520 and and you

00:18:58.620 know the

00:18:58.900 nazis which

00:18:59.360 is this weird

00:18:59.880 swing between

00:19:00.660 absolute identity

00:19:01.740 and kind of

00:19:02.360 revolutionary

00:19:02.880 tropes so you

00:19:04.500 have this this

00:19:05.460 pendulum that's

00:19:06.400 moving between

00:19:07.500 a kind of idea

00:19:08.920 of identity with

00:19:10.340 imaginal line

00:19:11.060 that's completely

00:19:11.600 contained which

00:19:12.660 is reflected in

00:19:13.520 the nation

00:19:13.880 state and

00:19:14.620 the border

00:19:15.320 right the

00:19:16.020 idea that a

00:19:16.500 border is a

00:19:17.100 is a is a

00:19:18.120 normal completely

00:19:19.700 organic reality

00:19:21.980 that's that's

00:19:23.340 just not true

00:19:23.940 it's a very

00:19:24.400 modern phenomena

00:19:25.140 the idea of

00:19:25.580 imaginal line

00:19:26.740 as a border

00:19:27.220 usually there's

00:19:27.780 buffers between

00:19:28.740 used to be

00:19:29.540 buffers between

00:19:30.200 empires buffers

00:19:30.940 between states

00:19:31.700 there were few

00:19:32.320 imaginal lines

00:19:32.900 sometimes you

00:19:33.880 needed them but

00:19:34.440 most of the time

00:19:34.940 no and so the

00:19:35.940 idea of understanding

00:19:36.580 how a margin

00:19:37.100 works post-modernism

00:19:37.980 helps us understand

00:19:39.020 that very well

00:19:39.840 and if conservative

00:19:41.260 types don't

00:19:42.320 understand how

00:19:43.140 margins work

00:19:43.960 then they have

00:19:45.080 they're just going

00:19:46.180 to be swallowed

00:19:47.020 up by the

00:19:47.800 you know by the

00:19:49.540 sea monster

00:19:50.060 because they don't

00:19:50.620 even know what

00:19:51.140 they're dealing

00:19:51.540 with they don't

00:19:51.980 know what

00:19:52.740 what margins

00:19:54.020 how margins

00:19:54.820 function and

00:19:55.440 what they how

00:19:56.420 they function in

00:19:57.120 relationship to

00:19:57.720 identity

00:19:58.120 you pointed out

00:20:00.780 the fact that

00:20:01.660 I think a lot of

00:20:03.040 people are stuck

00:20:03.860 with individualism

00:20:04.740 in a way that

00:20:05.280 isolates them from

00:20:06.000 all the other

00:20:06.480 different aspects

00:20:07.400 of being of

00:20:08.980 who they are

00:20:09.600 and how they

00:20:10.220 identify and how

00:20:11.000 they kind of

00:20:11.340 understand their

00:20:11.820 place in

00:20:12.300 communities and

00:20:12.940 those kind of

00:20:13.460 things do you

00:20:14.620 think that's

00:20:15.540 purely political

00:20:16.620 do you think

00:20:17.180 that's technological

00:20:18.060 is this a is

00:20:20.620 this a natural

00:20:21.740 outflow of kind

00:20:22.740 of scaling

00:20:23.260 societies to a

00:20:24.400 certain level

00:20:24.920 what do you

00:20:25.800 think is it all

00:20:27.040 these things

00:20:27.420 together where

00:20:27.980 did this come

00:20:28.400 from where

00:20:30.420 did it come

00:20:30.860 from and so

00:20:32.620 you know I

00:20:34.020 hate to be the

00:20:34.780 the guy who

00:20:35.880 says nominalism

00:20:36.660 but let's

00:20:37.460 say nominalism

00:20:38.160 I think this

00:20:38.920 is a very

00:20:39.600 story that

00:20:40.300 started at

00:20:41.080 the end of

00:20:41.380 the middle

00:20:41.600 ages that

00:20:42.820 there really

00:20:43.200 is this

00:20:43.800 this tendency

00:20:46.420 both to

00:20:47.480 like if you

00:20:48.520 look at what

00:20:49.100 Ockham did

00:20:49.980 is that he

00:20:50.680 kind of put

00:20:51.180 God way up

00:20:52.060 in heaven

00:20:52.940 right he

00:20:53.700 actually wanted

00:20:54.220 to make God

00:20:54.760 so absolute

00:20:55.560 you know that

00:20:56.960 nothing could

00:20:57.520 touch God

00:20:58.080 nothing nothing

00:20:58.840 could talk

00:20:59.620 about God

00:21:00.200 and so he

00:21:00.920 puts God up

00:21:01.540 in the heavens

00:21:02.120 and then

00:21:02.940 everything down

00:21:03.920 here becomes

00:21:05.460 arbitrary to

00:21:06.700 some extent

00:21:07.300 like the

00:21:08.240 arbitrary

00:21:08.660 manifestation of

00:21:09.560 God's will

00:21:10.060 and there's

00:21:10.800 no connection

00:21:11.540 between the

00:21:12.420 two and I

00:21:12.900 think that's

00:21:13.320 the beginning

00:21:13.720 of the problem

00:21:14.360 is that we

00:21:15.100 don't have

00:21:15.820 the way that

00:21:16.680 the ancients

00:21:17.440 would think

00:21:18.160 like the way

00:21:18.560 that normal

00:21:19.100 say the

00:21:20.080 medieval

00:21:20.560 Christian or

00:21:21.140 the early

00:21:21.420 Christians or

00:21:22.440 even the

00:21:22.800 Romans for

00:21:23.240 that matter

00:21:23.680 the most

00:21:24.260 traditional

00:21:24.580 societies

00:21:25.100 they have

00:21:25.980 an understanding

00:21:26.860 of analogy

00:21:27.500 things function

00:21:29.040 through analogies

00:21:29.880 and so although

00:21:30.820 the created

00:21:32.000 world isn't

00:21:32.980 God

00:21:33.540 and isn't

00:21:34.760 isn't

00:21:35.120 directly

00:21:35.740 pointing to

00:21:36.400 God

00:21:36.700 but is

00:21:37.160 always

00:21:37.480 indirectly

00:21:38.180 analogous

00:21:38.980 and is

00:21:39.820 manifesting

00:21:40.420 the qualities

00:21:40.920 of God

00:21:41.280 in the

00:21:41.540 world

00:21:41.800 and so

00:21:42.520 that makes

00:21:43.400 that subsidiary

00:21:44.320 structure

00:21:44.760 that I

00:21:45.400 mentioned

00:21:45.740 earlier

00:21:46.140 at the

00:21:46.540 outset

00:21:46.880 so it

00:21:47.620 means that

00:21:48.160 like

00:21:48.800 this is

00:21:50.300 you could

00:21:50.920 see it

00:21:51.260 as Trinitarian

00:21:51.780 language too

00:21:52.380 in Christianity

00:21:52.840 it's like

00:21:53.240 you're not

00:21:53.660 an individual

00:21:54.220 you're a

00:21:54.680 person

00:21:55.120 individuals

00:21:56.620 don't exist

00:21:57.400 isolated from

00:21:58.220 each other

00:21:58.580 that's just

00:21:59.000 nonsense

00:21:59.400 we exist

00:22:00.380 in communion

00:22:00.940 with each

00:22:01.420 other

00:22:01.640 we exist

00:22:02.460 in relation

00:22:03.080 to each

00:22:03.480 other

00:22:03.720 and that

00:22:04.540 is the

00:22:04.840 manner

00:22:05.140 of our

00:22:05.480 being

00:22:05.780 our

00:22:06.000 manner

00:22:06.280 of our

00:22:06.540 being

00:22:06.760 is to be

00:22:07.320 communal

00:22:07.940 in essence

00:22:08.980 that it was

00:22:09.660 being a

00:22:10.060 human is

00:22:10.760 so when we

00:22:11.560 have this

00:22:11.920 weird idea

00:22:12.420 of an

00:22:12.780 atomized

00:22:13.560 individual

00:22:14.500 in relationship

00:22:16.860 to God

00:22:17.500 you see that

00:22:17.980 in some

00:22:18.300 Protestant

00:22:18.660 kind of

00:22:19.180 approach

00:22:19.560 too

00:22:19.740 it's like

00:22:19.980 it's me

00:22:20.440 and God

00:22:21.080 right

00:22:21.400 and everything

00:22:22.180 else is

00:22:22.640 suspicious

00:22:23.080 all the

00:22:23.840 churches

00:22:24.080 are suspicious

00:22:24.680 everything

00:22:25.180 that manifests

00:22:26.040 anything else

00:22:26.440 suspicious

00:22:26.800 so you can

00:22:27.360 see all

00:22:28.060 through the

00:22:28.320 history

00:22:28.520 this weird

00:22:29.220 movement

00:22:29.740 but to

00:22:31.120 some extent

00:22:31.540 it didn't

00:22:31.980 have its

00:22:32.600 full

00:22:33.100 consequences

00:22:34.280 because it

00:22:34.680 was surfing

00:22:35.100 on normality

00:22:36.920 it was kind

00:22:37.220 of surfing

00:22:37.540 on the

00:22:37.920 world

00:22:38.100 but by the

00:22:38.600 time you

00:22:38.960 get to

00:22:39.500 the suburbs

00:22:40.580 then it's

00:22:42.160 like what

00:22:42.560 do you do

00:22:42.900 now

00:22:43.320 because now

00:22:44.560 you live

00:22:45.060 in a

00:22:46.260 blank

00:22:46.880 suburb

00:22:47.480 you don't

00:22:48.540 know your

00:22:48.900 neighbors

00:22:49.240 there's no

00:22:50.120 town center

00:22:50.800 there's no

00:22:51.560 place for

00:22:51.920 people to

00:22:52.280 congregate

00:22:52.900 there's no

00:22:53.360 place for

00:22:54.060 people to

00:22:54.560 meet each

00:22:55.380 other

00:22:55.620 you take

00:22:56.420 your car

00:22:56.840 you drive

00:22:57.220 to the

00:22:57.500 mall

00:22:57.740 you take

00:22:58.120 your car

00:22:58.480 you drive

00:22:58.820 to work

00:22:59.240 and it's

00:23:00.180 basically

00:23:00.600 now you

00:23:01.200 are like

00:23:01.820 distributed

00:23:02.640 dots on

00:23:03.480 a surface

00:23:05.420 and there's

00:23:06.320 no communion

00:23:07.820 between you

00:23:08.660 and what

00:23:09.320 happens

00:23:09.800 and this

00:23:10.160 is the

00:23:10.980 thing that

00:23:11.340 I've been

00:23:11.600 trying to

00:23:11.980 point out

00:23:12.400 too in

00:23:12.900 the past

00:23:13.580 year

00:23:14.140 this part

00:23:15.240 of the

00:23:15.580 I wrote

00:23:18.000 a paper

00:23:18.820 with Jordan

00:23:19.220 Peterson about

00:23:19.840 subsidiarity

00:23:20.460 trying to

00:23:20.820 help people

00:23:21.220 see what

00:23:21.980 it is we're

00:23:22.300 talking about

00:23:22.920 which is that

00:23:24.040 as you do

00:23:24.680 this

00:23:25.020 as you

00:23:25.940 fragment

00:23:26.300 people into

00:23:26.920 individuals

00:23:27.340 like down

00:23:27.960 here

00:23:28.280 the reality

00:23:29.680 is that

00:23:30.340 there is

00:23:30.940 a subsidiary

00:23:31.460 there should

00:23:32.420 be a subsidiary

00:23:33.140 structure

00:23:33.580 so there are

00:23:34.280 certain functions

00:23:35.320 that are taken

00:23:36.380 up by subsidiary

00:23:37.340 structures

00:23:37.720 so there are

00:23:38.400 functions for

00:23:38.940 the family

00:23:39.400 functions for

00:23:40.140 communities

00:23:40.560 functions for

00:23:41.120 cities

00:23:41.420 and all of

00:23:42.000 these functions

00:23:42.560 are just

00:23:44.200 normal functions

00:23:44.980 that need

00:23:45.480 for reality

00:23:46.320 to exist

00:23:46.880 but as you

00:23:47.540 move towards

00:23:47.980 individuality

00:23:48.800 and anarchism

00:23:49.800 and rebellion

00:23:50.360 and all this

00:23:50.880 stuff

00:23:51.120 you're calling

00:23:52.260 for authoritarianism

00:23:53.500 necessarily

00:23:54.900 because those

00:23:55.460 structures have

00:23:56.220 to be taken

00:23:56.760 up

00:23:57.080 so what happens

00:23:58.360 is that the

00:23:58.820 state as you

00:23:59.640 become more

00:24:00.180 and more of

00:24:00.500 an individual

00:24:01.000 the state

00:24:02.040 will inevitably

00:24:02.800 take up

00:24:03.620 all those

00:24:04.660 responsibilities

00:24:05.240 and will start

00:24:06.840 to compete

00:24:07.500 with family

00:24:08.160 will start

00:24:08.700 to compete

00:24:09.080 with church

00:24:09.620 will start

00:24:10.200 to compete

00:24:10.660 with business

00:24:11.280 will start

00:24:11.860 to take up

00:24:12.620 more and more

00:24:13.700 power into

00:24:14.300 itself

00:24:14.780 to make the

00:24:15.760 individuality

00:24:16.440 more and more

00:24:16.880 possible

00:24:17.360 so there's a

00:24:18.300 complete

00:24:18.860 relationship

00:24:20.300 between

00:24:20.940 rainbow

00:24:21.620 coalition

00:24:22.300 type

00:24:22.800 thinking

00:24:23.220 of

00:24:23.920 completely

00:24:24.720 idiosyncratic

00:24:25.760 furry

00:24:26.580 S&M

00:24:27.840 idiosyncratic

00:24:30.300 desire

00:24:30.780 of being

00:24:31.900 a freak

00:24:32.480 and then

00:24:34.280 a system

00:24:35.300 that is

00:24:35.640 more and

00:24:35.940 more powerful

00:24:36.540 those two

00:24:37.320 things happen

00:24:37.780 simultaneously

00:24:38.440 similarly

00:24:39.220 to the way

00:24:39.780 I talked

00:24:40.080 about how

00:24:40.640 nominalism

00:24:41.360 separates

00:24:41.820 heaven and

00:24:42.220 earth

00:24:42.460 and so

00:24:43.200 you can

00:24:43.480 see it

00:24:43.840 it's just

00:24:44.280 like

00:24:44.540 and it

00:24:45.720 moves

00:24:46.100 outside

00:24:46.640 even of

00:24:47.120 the state

00:24:47.520 at some

00:24:47.880 point

00:24:48.080 this system

00:24:48.700 that gets

00:24:49.120 more and

00:24:49.560 more powerful

00:24:50.160 is actually

00:24:50.860 going to

00:24:51.360 see the

00:24:51.660 state

00:24:51.920 as competition

00:24:52.540 for it

00:24:53.020 and will

00:24:53.700 become

00:24:54.060 like some

00:24:55.620 global

00:24:56.060 whatever

00:24:56.580 so yeah

00:24:59.040 I guess

00:24:59.360 so the

00:24:59.720 destruction

00:25:00.080 of these

00:25:00.400 intermediate

00:25:00.800 institutions

00:25:01.540 that kind

00:25:02.120 of secure

00:25:02.620 power

00:25:03.120 for the

00:25:03.740 state

00:25:04.140 obviously

00:25:05.160 that's in

00:25:05.960 its interest

00:25:06.560 but it also

00:25:07.160 seems that

00:25:07.940 people select

00:25:09.440 for this

00:25:09.840 there seems

00:25:10.220 to be a

00:25:10.540 preference

00:25:11.020 to be able

00:25:12.260 to abandon

00:25:12.740 these bonds

00:25:13.260 if possible

00:25:14.020 once the

00:25:15.700 technology

00:25:16.260 or once the

00:25:16.900 scale of

00:25:17.360 society

00:25:17.880 reaches the

00:25:18.500 point where

00:25:18.920 you can leave

00:25:19.600 the care

00:25:20.080 of your

00:25:20.740 elderly

00:25:21.200 parents

00:25:21.800 or the

00:25:22.320 education

00:25:22.800 of your

00:25:23.080 children

00:25:23.420 or any

00:25:24.460 of these

00:25:24.840 things

00:25:25.100 to the

00:25:25.460 state

00:25:25.740 people almost

00:25:26.700 seem to

00:25:27.240 automatically

00:25:27.680 do so

00:25:28.460 and so

00:25:29.380 and so

00:25:30.360 I wonder

00:25:30.760 is that

00:25:31.260 was

00:25:31.560 they despair

00:25:32.260 though by

00:25:32.700 the way

00:25:32.980 right

00:25:33.260 they do

00:25:33.700 in despair

00:25:34.300 right

00:25:34.800 but I'm

00:25:35.820 just

00:25:36.000 but I'm

00:25:36.500 just wondering

00:25:36.900 is there

00:25:37.380 you know

00:25:37.780 since this

00:25:38.480 seems to

00:25:39.160 be the

00:25:39.800 revealed

00:25:40.120 preference

00:25:40.560 of humans

00:25:41.720 when it's

00:25:42.520 an option

00:25:43.060 is that

00:25:44.580 does that

00:25:45.020 mean that

00:25:45.660 like the

00:25:46.760 material abundance

00:25:48.180 and scale

00:25:48.720 society

00:25:49.280 is just

00:25:49.860 always going

00:25:50.940 to result

00:25:52.040 in kind

00:25:53.420 of this

00:25:53.800 atomized

00:25:54.660 push towards

00:25:55.380 authoritarianism

00:25:56.360 is that an

00:25:57.040 inevitable

00:25:57.540 thing that

00:25:58.580 happens in the

00:25:59.180 human is this

00:25:59.740 a cyclical

00:26:00.240 thing like

00:26:00.740 how does

00:26:01.300 this management

00:26:02.220 work

00:26:02.540 I don't

00:26:03.780 think it's

00:26:04.160 inevitable

00:26:04.560 and and

00:26:06.460 I don't

00:26:06.900 think I

00:26:07.340 think it

00:26:07.680 might be

00:26:08.000 cyclical

00:26:08.400 that's

00:26:08.680 possible

00:26:09.060 I don't

00:26:10.440 think it's

00:26:10.700 inevitable

00:26:11.020 because

00:26:11.600 you know

00:26:13.360 I you know

00:26:13.980 for example

00:26:14.380 like in the

00:26:14.820 Bible there's

00:26:15.400 this image

00:26:15.880 that's that's

00:26:16.960 given to us

00:26:17.560 of the

00:26:17.940 heavenly

00:26:18.160 Jerusalem

00:26:18.660 and the

00:26:19.180 heavenly

00:26:19.440 Jerusalem

00:26:19.960 is an

00:26:21.280 image of

00:26:22.140 civilization

00:26:23.460 abundant

00:26:24.340 civilization

00:26:24.840 that is

00:26:26.220 properly

00:26:26.700 ordered

00:26:27.180 towards

00:26:28.300 the best

00:26:29.420 things

00:26:29.880 and has

00:26:30.820 everything

00:26:31.320 in its

00:26:32.000 place

00:26:32.660 you know

00:26:33.280 and so

00:26:33.540 it's like

00:26:33.920 the techne

00:26:34.740 is on the

00:26:35.420 outside

00:26:35.880 and is

00:26:36.840 protecting

00:26:37.300 and in

00:26:38.120 the middle

00:26:38.480 there's the

00:26:38.940 tree and

00:26:39.640 the river

00:26:40.220 and then

00:26:41.120 there's the

00:26:41.760 the self

00:26:42.740 sacrificial lamb

00:26:43.860 which is the

00:26:44.640 absolute

00:26:45.400 center of

00:26:45.660 it all

00:26:46.040 and so

00:26:46.860 a self

00:26:47.920 sacrificial

00:26:48.560 system

00:26:49.380 would be

00:26:51.620 able to

00:26:52.320 make

00:26:53.120 civilization

00:26:54.560 possible

00:26:55.100 I do

00:26:56.820 believe that

00:26:57.380 I don't

00:26:57.780 know

00:26:58.020 and the

00:26:59.440 problem

00:26:59.740 with that

00:27:00.120 is that

00:27:00.380 the only

00:27:00.660 way to go

00:27:01.060 about that

00:27:01.480 is to do

00:27:01.800 it yourself

00:27:02.180 like there's

00:27:02.640 just no

00:27:03.000 other way

00:27:03.520 the only

00:27:04.060 way to do

00:27:04.440 it is to

00:27:04.740 do it

00:27:04.940 yourself

00:27:05.300 because

00:27:05.620 if you

00:27:06.220 as soon

00:27:06.840 as you

00:27:07.120 start to

00:27:07.600 say well

00:27:07.940 if only

00:27:08.360 these people

00:27:08.920 would do

00:27:09.240 this

00:27:09.680 then you're

00:27:10.460 already

00:27:10.740 stepped

00:27:11.220 outside of

00:27:11.820 what that

00:27:12.260 what that

00:27:12.820 means

00:27:13.220 and so

00:27:15.540 when people

00:27:16.440 ask me

00:27:16.900 like what's

00:27:17.460 your political

00:27:17.980 vision

00:27:18.440 like what's

00:27:19.000 your

00:27:19.200 what's your

00:27:19.760 political

00:27:20.200 you know

00:27:20.900 what do you

00:27:21.200 think is the

00:27:21.560 political

00:27:21.880 solution

00:27:22.400 and my

00:27:22.820 answer is

00:27:23.160 always become

00:27:23.680 a better

00:27:23.980 person

00:27:24.360 that's my

00:27:25.440 political

00:27:25.860 solution

00:27:26.380 I know

00:27:26.680 it's boring

00:27:27.240 and I know

00:27:27.580 it's annoying

00:27:28.040 because you

00:27:28.380 wish you could

00:27:28.880 have a big

00:27:29.620 scheme of how

00:27:30.440 to reverse

00:27:31.020 globalism

00:27:31.720 but

00:27:32.300 what's better

00:27:34.540 than a

00:27:34.880 well-marbled

00:27:35.440 ribeye

00:27:35.880 sizzling

00:27:36.340 on the

00:27:36.600 barbecue

00:27:36.980 a well-marbled

00:27:38.420 ribeye

00:27:38.860 sizzling

00:27:39.320 on the

00:27:39.580 barbecue

00:27:39.920 that was

00:27:40.380 carefully

00:27:40.840 selected

00:27:41.300 by an

00:27:41.780 instacart

00:27:42.260 shopper

00:27:42.680 and delivered

00:27:43.160 to your

00:27:43.520 door

00:27:43.840 a well-marbled

00:27:45.140 ribeye

00:27:45.580 you ordered

00:27:46.100 without even

00:27:46.920 leaving the

00:27:47.460 kiddie pool

00:27:48.100 whatever groceries

00:27:49.600 your summer

00:27:50.100 calls for

00:27:50.860 instacart

00:27:51.560 has you

00:27:52.000 covered

00:27:52.440 download the

00:27:53.420 instacart app

00:27:54.120 and enjoy

00:27:54.660 zero dollar

00:27:55.360 delivery fees

00:27:56.180 on your

00:27:56.440 first three

00:27:56.940 orders

00:27:57.340 service fees

00:27:58.300 exclusions

00:27:58.920 and terms

00:27:59.500 apply

00:27:59.980 instacart

00:28:01.060 groceries

00:28:01.780 that over

00:28:02.520 deliver

00:28:02.920 i don't

00:28:05.460 think i think

00:28:06.240 it's too

00:28:06.720 late like

00:28:07.340 in terms

00:28:07.880 of of

00:28:08.540 terms of

00:28:09.100 you know

00:28:09.800 so i do

00:28:11.500 believe that

00:28:11.960 the best

00:28:12.320 solution is

00:28:12.900 to become

00:28:13.240 a saint

00:28:13.580 like to

00:28:14.060 to to

00:28:15.260 to be

00:28:16.400 transformed

00:28:16.880 and that

00:28:17.500 will

00:28:17.880 reverberate

00:28:18.880 and the

00:28:19.280 and the

00:28:19.660 truth and

00:28:20.160 the goodness

00:28:20.540 will survive

00:28:22.120 uh the

00:28:23.220 madness that

00:28:23.840 is coming

00:28:24.260 in in the

00:28:25.800 next few

00:28:26.140 years maybe

00:28:26.640 2024 man

00:28:27.840 2024 is

00:28:29.060 gonna be

00:28:29.320 crazy year

00:28:29.980 yeah

00:28:30.600 i think

00:28:31.400 i think

00:28:31.880 that's a

00:28:32.180 pretty safe

00:28:32.640 prediction

00:28:33.020 on your

00:28:33.400 part

00:28:33.700 so uh

00:28:34.900 so i wanted

00:28:35.580 to ask

00:28:35.960 you with

00:28:36.900 as you said

00:28:38.000 people they

00:28:38.840 fall you know

00:28:39.500 into despair

00:28:40.160 when they fall

00:28:40.780 into these

00:28:41.140 systems when

00:28:41.700 they individualize

00:28:42.740 like this

00:28:43.220 and i think

00:28:43.880 the reason

00:28:44.300 2024 is

00:28:45.320 going to be

00:28:45.600 a crazy

00:28:45.960 year is

00:28:46.460 we are

00:28:46.920 watching

00:28:47.560 you know

00:28:48.940 kind of

00:28:49.360 the the

00:28:49.820 scale of

00:28:50.200 society

00:28:50.540 stretch to

00:28:51.120 its limits

00:28:51.560 i just

00:28:52.160 don't think

00:28:52.640 that people

00:28:53.140 can exist

00:28:53.960 spiritually

00:28:54.820 or any

00:28:55.720 other way

00:28:56.460 uh you

00:28:57.440 know continue

00:28:57.880 on in this

00:28:58.460 manner uh

00:28:59.320 and and so

00:29:00.560 i wonder

00:29:01.060 do you think

00:29:01.880 that we'll

00:29:02.260 see a shift

00:29:03.140 towards a

00:29:04.660 more particular

00:29:05.300 society i mean

00:29:06.400 obviously certain

00:29:07.620 things would kind

00:29:08.220 of have to come

00:29:08.760 apart but do you

00:29:09.740 think that you

00:29:10.740 know uh people

00:29:11.960 who are building

00:29:12.660 smaller communities

00:29:14.260 faith communities

00:29:15.300 are going to be

00:29:16.240 the ones that are

00:29:16.700 more likely to

00:29:17.340 make it through

00:29:17.720 and those are

00:29:18.200 going to be the

00:29:18.600 kind of things

00:29:19.060 that can continue

00:29:19.740 going forward or

00:29:20.440 do you think

00:29:21.100 that there's a

00:29:21.580 possibility that

00:29:22.240 they could

00:29:22.620 continue to try

00:29:23.280 to unify things

00:29:24.080 in a more

00:29:24.400 globalist way

00:29:25.060 that that could

00:29:25.840 be further

00:29:26.740 successful for a

00:29:27.620 while

00:29:27.920 yeah i think

00:29:29.380 we're in it

00:29:29.760 for a while

00:29:30.360 uh you know

00:29:31.560 in terms of

00:29:32.120 the the manner

00:29:33.380 in which the

00:29:34.060 system will

00:29:34.580 become tyrannical

00:29:35.900 i think that

00:29:37.180 what we're going

00:29:37.720 to see

00:29:38.300 and it's

00:29:39.840 some we

00:29:40.140 already saw

00:29:40.640 it during

00:29:40.920 covid to

00:29:41.440 some extent

00:29:41.960 which is

00:29:42.520 that there's

00:29:45.140 again this

00:29:45.520 image sorry

00:29:46.000 people like

00:29:46.720 hear me talk

00:29:47.260 about revelation

00:29:47.900 like by the

00:29:48.700 way i'm not

00:29:49.260 like a revelation

00:29:50.100 and as it

00:29:50.820 like it's

00:29:51.320 predicting specific

00:29:52.400 events in the

00:29:52.940 future i see

00:29:53.780 the book of

00:29:54.240 revelation as a

00:29:55.020 pattern and as

00:29:56.000 a kind of image

00:29:57.240 of how reality

00:29:57.980 works and there

00:29:58.580 are images in

00:29:59.120 there that can

00:29:59.520 help you understand

00:30:00.140 certain patterns

00:30:00.800 of reality so

00:30:02.000 there's an image

00:30:02.520 in there of a

00:30:03.180 of a whore

00:30:03.920 riding a beast

00:30:04.640 uh and it's a

00:30:05.860 very powerful image

00:30:06.660 because the beast

00:30:07.300 is civilization in

00:30:08.300 that context it's

00:30:09.160 it's like all the

00:30:09.920 civilization joined

00:30:10.800 into one it's like

00:30:11.560 civilization of

00:30:12.520 civilizations uh and

00:30:14.140 then on the the

00:30:15.100 the back of that

00:30:15.900 is the is the

00:30:16.860 whore and that

00:30:17.760 accounts for what

00:30:18.300 you talked about

00:30:18.900 before which is

00:30:20.020 that you know

00:30:21.020 if the system

00:30:23.140 offers people what

00:30:24.060 they want you

00:30:25.700 know then

00:30:26.420 they'll give

00:30:26.960 up their

00:30:27.420 freedom they'll

00:30:28.160 give up their

00:30:28.960 their their

00:30:29.860 families they'll

00:30:30.580 give up their

00:30:31.240 churches for

00:30:32.740 their immediate

00:30:33.720 desire right

00:30:34.860 their their

00:30:35.880 lascivious and

00:30:36.780 immediate desires

00:30:37.540 and so so

00:30:38.380 basically we're

00:30:38.900 drowning in

00:30:39.540 porn and video

00:30:40.200 games and

00:30:41.200 whatever the

00:30:42.100 hell it is that

00:30:42.900 that it comes

00:30:43.960 to your fancy

00:30:44.580 you basically

00:30:45.700 have access to

00:30:46.900 it you know

00:30:47.400 um but that

00:30:49.960 at some point

00:30:50.880 is not

00:30:52.000 sustainable

00:30:52.860 because society

00:30:54.880 fragments to a

00:30:56.000 point where

00:30:56.720 it's gonna

00:30:57.560 shatter it's

00:30:58.760 not gonna hold

00:30:59.440 together and

00:31:00.880 then what happens

00:31:01.560 is that the

00:31:01.960 beast kills the

00:31:02.760 whore and

00:31:04.480 then the

00:31:04.780 clampdown

00:31:05.420 comes and

00:31:07.040 then everything

00:31:07.640 that led to

00:31:08.880 to it it

00:31:09.680 goes away and

00:31:10.640 now you know

00:31:11.820 so you move

00:31:12.580 from weimar to

00:31:14.260 the reich you

00:31:15.460 move from you

00:31:16.740 know decadent

00:31:17.420 late late

00:31:18.320 19th century

00:31:19.260 russian uh

00:31:21.340 society to

00:31:22.540 stalin you

00:31:24.280 know it's

00:31:24.560 like you

00:31:25.680 move from the

00:31:26.560 revolution to

00:31:27.260 napoleon or

00:31:27.840 whatever however

00:31:28.440 you want to

00:31:28.880 see it but

00:31:29.320 it's like the

00:31:29.800 things don't

00:31:30.600 just keep going

00:31:31.380 in one direction

00:31:32.160 if you push

00:31:33.060 something too

00:31:33.540 hard in one

00:31:34.000 direction at

00:31:34.560 some point it

00:31:36.100 falls and then

00:31:36.940 something else

00:31:37.480 comes and so I

00:31:38.300 think that that

00:31:38.960 if we're gonna

00:31:39.680 see something

00:31:40.260 happen soon

00:31:41.620 and it it

00:31:44.820 it's not I

00:31:45.740 don't think it's

00:31:46.060 completely arbitrary

00:31:46.700 that we're about

00:31:47.500 a hundred years

00:31:48.100 from when it

00:31:48.480 happened last you

00:31:49.320 know we're

00:31:49.720 around that time

00:31:51.000 I think that

00:31:53.140 that seems to

00:31:53.660 be what happened

00:31:54.080 and we saw a

00:31:54.600 bit of that

00:31:54.920 during COVID

00:31:55.360 so so

00:31:58.060 Samuel Huntington

00:31:58.980 in his book

00:31:59.720 clash of

00:32:00.100 civilizations

00:32:00.640 predicted that

00:32:01.940 we were moving

00:32:02.460 out of a

00:32:03.280 time of

00:32:04.280 ideology

00:32:05.060 especially

00:32:05.580 economic

00:32:06.040 ideology

00:32:06.660 and returning

00:32:07.460 to probably

00:32:08.320 a time

00:32:09.040 that was more

00:32:10.180 traditional where

00:32:11.060 it was it

00:32:11.820 was civilizations

00:32:13.400 partitioned

00:32:14.100 particularly by

00:32:15.000 religion

00:32:15.480 and I wonder

00:32:17.340 what you think

00:32:18.120 about you know

00:32:18.960 if if we're

00:32:19.600 gonna see if

00:32:20.160 globalism is

00:32:21.060 is gonna

00:32:21.760 continue and

00:32:22.620 but then we

00:32:23.320 have you know

00:32:24.160 some of these

00:32:24.540 crackdowns do

00:32:25.180 you see a

00:32:26.180 point at which

00:32:26.840 we're gonna

00:32:27.820 see you know

00:32:29.020 those that are

00:32:29.820 able to break

00:32:30.320 away from I

00:32:31.320 guess kind of

00:32:31.820 the globalist

00:32:32.780 network would

00:32:33.840 reorganize under

00:32:34.920 kind of more

00:32:35.460 the civilizational

00:32:36.460 religious blocks

00:32:37.660 as opposed to

00:32:38.760 you know capitalism

00:32:39.860 versus socialism

00:32:41.000 or these kind of

00:32:41.780 things

00:32:42.060 that is definitely

00:32:43.540 possible

00:32:44.120 it's hard to

00:32:45.960 tell I don't

00:32:47.100 it's hard for

00:32:47.840 me to I

00:32:48.720 usually don't

00:32:49.160 like to

00:32:49.500 predict

00:32:49.760 specifics

00:32:50.300 I like to

00:32:51.280 see like the

00:32:52.020 big pattern

00:32:52.620 I do think

00:32:54.240 that there

00:32:55.460 will of

00:32:56.020 course be

00:32:57.480 we already

00:32:57.880 saw that too

00:32:58.580 like there

00:32:59.160 will be a

00:32:59.680 resistance to

00:33:00.420 the globalist

00:33:01.420 thing and I

00:33:02.620 don't see

00:33:03.280 I don't see

00:33:05.420 anything but

00:33:06.100 religion making

00:33:07.880 that possible

00:33:08.660 like I don't

00:33:09.560 see anything

00:33:09.980 strong enough

00:33:10.980 in the cultural

00:33:12.720 sphere to make

00:33:14.040 it possible to

00:33:15.560 make people want

00:33:16.960 to resist the

00:33:17.660 system in a

00:33:18.900 way that will

00:33:19.380 be completely

00:33:19.880 detrimental to

00:33:20.720 themselves and

00:33:22.040 I think that

00:33:22.520 religion maybe

00:33:23.240 it might be the

00:33:23.980 only reason why

00:33:25.120 and that's also

00:33:26.240 why there was a

00:33:27.200 weird convergence

00:33:28.000 of although a

00:33:29.680 lot of religious

00:33:30.200 people went along

00:33:30.940 with the COVID

00:33:31.480 stuff those that

00:33:33.260 resisted a lot

00:33:34.820 of them tended

00:33:35.360 to have some

00:33:36.720 background religious

00:33:37.760 idea that I'm

00:33:39.760 not going to

00:33:40.180 give up my will

00:33:41.060 and my entire

00:33:41.900 being to to

00:33:43.660 the state so

00:33:45.080 I think we'll

00:33:46.180 probably see

00:33:46.920 more of that

00:33:47.600 I mean I in

00:33:48.480 my what I

00:33:49.400 would hope and

00:33:49.980 I don't know

00:33:50.340 if it's possible

00:33:51.020 but what I

00:33:51.500 would hope is

00:33:52.080 at some point

00:33:52.980 for some of

00:33:56.160 the religious

00:33:56.820 people would

00:33:59.200 see that that

00:34:00.120 they have at

00:34:01.780 least in this

00:34:02.300 situation they

00:34:02.960 have more in

00:34:03.420 common than

00:34:03.920 they have

00:34:04.320 different you

00:34:05.880 know and

00:34:06.160 that it and

00:34:07.440 that there

00:34:07.960 could be some

00:34:08.500 kind of

00:34:08.800 cooperation but

00:34:10.960 we'll see

00:34:11.480 I think I

00:34:14.180 wouldn't be the

00:34:14.640 first to notice

00:34:16.180 that wokeness is

00:34:18.140 kind of a

00:34:18.980 Protestant Christian

00:34:19.780 heresy it's a

00:34:20.780 kind of the

00:34:21.840 removing of

00:34:22.740 you know of the

00:34:24.900 divine from kind

00:34:25.920 of Protestant

00:34:26.800 Christian ethos and

00:34:28.480 I've seen a lot

00:34:29.120 of people say that

00:34:30.140 Christianity itself

00:34:31.200 a lot of a lot of

00:34:31.800 critics of

00:34:32.100 Christianity would

00:34:32.800 say that

00:34:33.100 Christianity itself

00:34:34.020 kind of inevitably

00:34:35.440 leads to this

00:34:36.720 universalism that

00:34:39.100 that kind of

00:34:39.640 looks like

00:34:40.200 wokeness what

00:34:41.160 would you say

00:34:41.520 to people who

00:34:42.100 say that

00:34:42.500 Christianity

00:34:42.820 necessarily has

00:34:43.920 to devolve

00:34:45.680 into what we're

00:34:46.480 seeing now

00:34:47.040 so I'm going to

00:34:50.640 say something

00:34:51.080 people I don't

00:34:52.060 expect but I

00:34:52.660 would say that

00:34:53.580 I think that it

00:34:55.220 is possibly true

00:34:56.340 that Christianity

00:34:57.240 was inevitably

00:34:58.300 going to become

00:34:59.500 that but it's

00:35:00.720 not something

00:35:01.600 to be celebrated

00:35:02.920 and in some

00:35:03.940 ways it's not

00:35:04.420 something that

00:35:05.160 even Christ

00:35:06.100 would let's

00:35:08.880 say it this

00:35:09.240 way

00:35:09.480 right Christ

00:35:10.420 chose his

00:35:11.020 betrayer

00:35:11.660 right and

00:35:13.440 Christ chose

00:35:14.280 the disciple

00:35:14.900 that would

00:35:15.240 deny him

00:35:15.820 and and

00:35:18.100 the idea of

00:35:19.620 antichrist is

00:35:20.720 part of the

00:35:21.360 Christian story

00:35:22.140 right and so

00:35:23.600 the idea that

00:35:24.620 antichrist will

00:35:25.400 come out of

00:35:25.820 Christianity is

00:35:26.420 part of the

00:35:26.760 Christian story

00:35:27.460 and so I

00:35:27.920 think that that

00:35:28.480 is something

00:35:28.900 which is

00:35:30.060 ultimately

00:35:30.660 it's a

00:35:31.620 in the in

00:35:33.560 the end is

00:35:34.440 going to

00:35:35.000 surprise us

00:35:35.720 with a with

00:35:36.400 a kind of

00:35:36.860 restoration and

00:35:37.840 a return to

00:35:38.860 something

00:35:39.480 but but

00:35:40.240 there's a

00:35:40.560 manner in

00:35:40.860 which I

00:35:41.060 think you're

00:35:41.760 right that

00:35:42.200 the atheists

00:35:43.320 and the

00:35:44.840 secularists and

00:35:46.120 the communists

00:35:47.020 and the

00:35:48.280 revolutionaries

00:35:49.220 they really

00:35:50.020 come out of

00:35:50.600 Judaism and

00:35:51.160 Christianity

00:35:51.640 they don't

00:35:52.520 come out of

00:35:52.940 anything else

00:35:53.560 like they're

00:35:53.920 not they're

00:35:54.500 not Romans

00:35:55.160 they're not

00:35:55.880 they're not

00:35:56.880 northern Norwegian

00:35:57.780 pagans like

00:35:58.600 they're you know

00:35:59.180 they're not

00:35:59.520 African

00:35:59.900 they're that's

00:36:00.880 where they come

00:36:01.220 out of and

00:36:01.560 even when it

00:36:02.320 happens in other

00:36:02.860 countries that's

00:36:04.300 where the ideas

00:36:04.980 come from from

00:36:05.980 us and so it

00:36:06.980 seems like there

00:36:07.600 is a kind of

00:36:08.280 weird cosmic

00:36:09.080 way that this

00:36:10.880 is going to

00:36:11.740 to play out

00:36:12.840 but I think we

00:36:14.000 also have the

00:36:14.640 tools to see

00:36:16.180 the difference

00:36:16.820 between true

00:36:18.220 religion and

00:36:19.200 this factitious

00:36:20.100 woke madness

00:36:21.980 that we're

00:36:22.420 seeing and I

00:36:24.260 think I think

00:36:26.780 actually like the

00:36:27.720 story of Judas is

00:36:28.500 a good place to

00:36:29.100 see that actually

00:36:29.860 in the story of

00:36:30.320 Judas so there's

00:36:31.260 a there's an

00:36:31.840 event there aren't

00:36:32.500 that many events

00:36:33.080 in the story of

00:36:33.500 Judas in scripture

00:36:34.100 but there's one

00:36:34.960 event where

00:36:35.600 there's a there's

00:36:37.180 a woman that

00:36:38.660 comes to worship

00:36:39.360 Christ and she

00:36:40.480 she washes his

00:36:41.980 feet with her

00:36:42.540 hair and so

00:36:43.800 she's basically

00:36:44.460 like giving this

00:36:45.220 really expensive

00:36:46.100 perfume which

00:36:46.640 like worth a

00:36:47.200 month's salary

00:36:47.760 or something

00:36:48.140 crazy like this

00:36:49.020 huge amount of

00:36:49.760 money and she

00:36:50.960 she she pours it

00:36:51.860 on his feet and

00:36:52.400 she she she

00:36:53.380 cleans his feet

00:36:54.380 with her with

00:36:55.100 her hair and

00:36:55.480 it's a moment of

00:36:56.040 like humility and

00:36:56.920 worship and

00:36:57.400 everything so you

00:36:58.080 can agree with

00:36:58.680 the worship or

00:36:59.680 not doesn't

00:37:00.060 matter and

00:37:00.480 understanding the

00:37:01.540 story she

00:37:02.160 basically gives

00:37:03.260 something up to

00:37:04.380 something which

00:37:04.860 she perceives as

00:37:05.840 being higher than

00:37:06.500 her and she she

00:37:07.500 she gives it up

00:37:08.160 and Judas says

00:37:09.260 you know you

00:37:09.820 should have given

00:37:10.160 that money to

00:37:10.720 the poor and in

00:37:13.420 the text it says

00:37:14.160 that in reality he

00:37:15.680 didn't really want

00:37:16.380 to give the money

00:37:17.240 to the poor he

00:37:18.100 basically was going

00:37:18.660 to pocket the

00:37:19.180 money himself

00:37:19.800 that's it that's

00:37:23.760 it Christ tells us

00:37:25.400 to help the poor

00:37:26.120 Christ tells us to

00:37:27.040 help the victims to

00:37:28.080 help the marginalized

00:37:28.940 but when that is

00:37:33.160 done to gain

00:37:34.800 power on

00:37:35.360 yourself right

00:37:36.640 when you use

00:37:37.220 that language in

00:37:38.080 order to give

00:37:38.620 yourself power and

00:37:40.080 in order to

00:37:40.700 manipulate that in

00:37:41.800 order to gain

00:37:42.500 power that is

00:37:43.960 exactly what

00:37:44.780 Judas was doing

00:37:45.560 and so this is

00:37:47.300 what we see in

00:37:48.060 the weird like you

00:37:48.900 see it in these

00:37:49.480 weird you know

00:37:50.520 like the the

00:37:52.080 the weird advocate

00:37:53.700 the weird advocacy

00:37:55.000 type people like

00:37:55.720 even in BLM you

00:37:56.580 could see that it's

00:37:57.340 like basically the

00:37:58.700 people who set

00:38:00.160 BLM up ended up

00:38:01.400 becoming massively

00:38:02.200 rich and buying

00:38:02.920 houses and setting

00:38:04.060 themselves up and

00:38:04.900 using victimization

00:38:06.080 narratives in order

00:38:07.740 to make themselves

00:38:08.520 more powerful and

00:38:09.920 as soon as you see

00:38:10.620 that someone doing

00:38:11.600 that you know that

00:38:13.680 you're in the wrong

00:38:14.800 you're in the wrong

00:38:16.240 camp like this is

00:38:17.060 not the this is not

00:38:18.020 what true religion

00:38:19.100 is about

00:38:19.620 what do you think

00:38:21.780 about the expansion

00:38:22.720 of orthodox

00:38:24.600 christianity in the

00:38:26.400 west it's obviously

00:38:27.440 a phenomenon that

00:38:28.340 was particularly

00:38:29.100 tied i think to

00:38:31.180 you know the

00:38:32.200 russian church or

00:38:33.100 the greek church or

00:38:34.040 you know balkans

00:38:34.720 those kind of areas

00:38:35.560 and now it's

00:38:36.640 becoming much more

00:38:37.580 popular what do you

00:38:39.020 think about it what

00:38:39.760 that means uh that

00:38:41.300 why that shift might

00:38:42.200 occur and how the

00:38:43.220 church kind of takes

00:38:44.840 it does the church

00:38:45.540 take on a different

00:38:46.160 flavor or a different

00:38:47.220 aspect when it moves

00:38:48.360 west how does that

00:38:49.240 work

00:38:49.480 definitely i mean

00:38:51.540 orthodoxy is the

00:38:54.940 best of orthodoxy is

00:38:56.340 something like a

00:38:57.040 joining of unity

00:38:57.780 and multiplicity

00:38:58.500 together right on

00:38:59.700 the one hand you

00:39:00.820 have this very strong

00:39:02.160 sense of unity you

00:39:03.100 have a strong sense

00:39:03.820 of community in terms

00:39:04.660 of theology in terms

00:39:06.020 of the liturgy but

00:39:07.200 then there's always a

00:39:08.300 local flavor that

00:39:09.460 happens right a

00:39:10.300 russian church and a

00:39:11.020 greek church are

00:39:11.580 extremely different

00:39:12.620 serbian church

00:39:13.640 romanian churches

00:39:14.440 all these churches

00:39:15.080 are different though

00:39:16.420 they are in

00:39:16.920 community together and

00:39:17.780 they're they're bound

00:39:18.700 and so one of the

00:39:21.320 things that orthodoxy

00:39:22.140 i think offers uh the

00:39:24.000 west is a is a

00:39:26.340 a type of theology

00:39:28.160 which can help us

00:39:28.920 account for reality

00:39:30.240 right a kind of

00:39:32.040 there is something of

00:39:32.880 that in catholicism

00:39:33.640 too and if you even

00:39:34.580 in scholasticism like

00:39:35.880 there's still some of

00:39:36.480 that where it's not

00:39:36.960 just talking about

00:39:37.740 morality or how to

00:39:39.580 live your life it is

00:39:40.440 talking about that but

00:39:41.540 it is also giving an

00:39:42.480 account for the

00:39:43.780 structure of how

00:39:44.360 things work and i

00:39:45.140 think that that's

00:39:45.720 something that

00:39:46.260 orthodoxy uh offers

00:39:48.760 but as it moves west

00:39:50.320 it will definitely take

00:39:51.380 on some aspects of

00:39:54.060 the culture in which

00:39:54.700 it's moving it's just

00:39:55.500 something that's

00:39:56.040 inevitable and it's

00:39:57.320 also fine that that

00:39:58.460 happens you spoke

00:40:00.580 about uh kind of

00:40:02.200 ai and how that

00:40:03.560 means we're moving

00:40:04.220 towards a religious

00:40:04.920 world where we like

00:40:05.940 it or not is that

00:40:07.260 part of kind of the

00:40:08.100 post-modern scenario

00:40:09.580 where you see a

00:40:10.600 re-enchantment of the

00:40:11.520 world but maybe with

00:40:12.520 the most horrific

00:40:13.220 things first yeah

00:40:14.580 i it seems that that

00:40:18.360 is the case it seems

00:40:19.660 that that is the case

00:40:20.680 and it's true of also

00:40:21.600 of the rainbow stuff

00:40:22.720 uh you know if you're

00:40:24.500 paying attention to the

00:40:25.440 rainbow stuff you see

00:40:26.200 that it is not just

00:40:27.580 about a kind of

00:40:29.840 evacuated christianity

00:40:31.520 but it is a

00:40:33.060 redefinition of the of

00:40:34.740 deity as exception

00:40:36.880 and so the idea you've

00:40:38.800 probably seen it like

00:40:39.480 trans is sacred you've

00:40:40.520 probably seen those

00:40:41.240 types of statements

00:40:42.200 where it's like also

00:40:43.820 saying i am all things

00:40:45.320 right i am not one

00:40:46.520 thing i'm like the

00:40:47.440 trinity i am one in

00:40:48.840 many i am like this

00:40:50.140 kind of language where

00:40:51.080 there's a desire to set

00:40:52.620 up the exception as

00:40:54.480 divine um you know

00:40:58.020 this is something which

00:40:59.120 i think is it is this

00:41:00.720 kind of upside down

00:41:01.700 uh religion but it is

00:41:03.260 happening and like i've

00:41:04.960 said before the world is

00:41:06.100 being re-enchanted that's

00:41:07.560 it's just happening if

00:41:09.320 you anybody paying

00:41:10.020 attention during the

00:41:11.020 george floyd protest

00:41:12.080 would have seen that we

00:41:13.500 saw a moment of

00:41:15.040 religious ecstasy in the

00:41:16.420 united states we saw a

00:41:18.620 a an event that was as

00:41:20.540 close was close to what

00:41:22.760 you could have read in

00:41:24.060 you know ancient greek

00:41:25.180 writings about the

00:41:26.560 spharagmos or whatever

00:41:27.620 and you know the women

00:41:29.000 on the mountain and

00:41:29.920 this kind of ecstatic

00:41:31.060 uh jubilation and uh in

00:41:33.980 the in the sacrificial

00:41:34.860 victim like it was nuts i

00:41:36.900 mean we're really so the

00:41:38.280 sacred is like returning

00:41:39.460 at full speed and there

00:41:40.900 are a lot of early

00:41:42.220 modern early 20th century

00:41:43.660 and and obviously post

00:41:44.700 modern thinkers that

00:41:45.600 were actively trying to do

00:41:47.640 that from a kind of

00:41:49.200 luciferian or upside

00:41:50.940 down world i was

00:41:51.680 recently talking to a

00:41:52.540 friend of mine about

00:41:53.080 george bataille who was

00:41:54.300 a french theorist super

00:41:55.780 famous you know lefty

00:41:57.160 everybody loved him uh he

00:41:59.220 was in the academy

00:41:59.880 francaise i think even

00:42:01.080 and he like was

00:42:02.520 literally pushing for

00:42:05.180 the kind of ecstatic

00:42:07.660 atheism that even

00:42:09.240 involved images of human

00:42:10.420 sacrifice and and all of

00:42:12.180 this kind of stuff it's

00:42:13.180 like it's been there

00:42:14.080 kind of bubbling up uh

00:42:16.280 from the time of of

00:42:17.380 like right from the

00:42:18.540 time of the beginning

00:42:19.100 of the of the um of

00:42:21.360 the uh of the

00:42:22.600 enlightenment it's just

00:42:23.940 there and now it's

00:42:24.900 starting to really the

00:42:26.140 fruits of it are starting

00:42:26.840 to show and we're gonna

00:42:28.220 see a lot more of it

00:42:29.160 like burning man is also

00:42:30.780 it's like a kind of tame

00:42:31.780 version of it i think

00:42:32.800 floyd was way more

00:42:33.900 authentic in the sense

00:42:35.560 that it was this kind of

00:42:36.360 spontaneous ecstasy

00:42:37.460 uh burning man is like a

00:42:39.460 kind of weird desire to

00:42:40.780 create this atheistic

00:42:42.040 um you know uh ecstatic

00:42:44.840 religious moment that

00:42:46.140 doesn't mean anything

00:42:46.900 you know um but we're

00:42:48.600 gonna see and i think

00:42:50.060 next year this this year

00:42:51.680 we're gonna see for sure

00:42:53.020 there's every reason for

00:42:54.780 there to be riots and

00:42:55.720 explosions so you know

00:42:57.600 just like sorry god i

00:43:00.260 just takes one person to

00:43:01.360 die for it to happen so

00:43:02.560 and you've got what is

00:43:03.560 like 400 million people in

00:43:05.280 the united states so

00:43:06.020 there's a good chance that

00:43:07.520 someone will die enough to

00:43:08.940 create an image of

00:43:09.860 sacrifice again and then

00:43:10.980 you'll have another

00:43:11.700 yeah sorry folks

00:43:14.800 it's like i hate to be

00:43:17.640 the the bringer of doom

00:43:19.120 you know unfortunately

00:43:20.180 you're on the right show

00:43:21.080 to lack optimism my

00:43:22.400 my audience is more than

00:43:23.580 used to it at this point

00:43:25.100 um so you you talked a

00:43:27.660 little bit uh about ai

00:43:29.040 and i'm wondering what

00:43:31.400 you think about it i i

00:43:33.880 talked to a lot of people

00:43:34.660 about it and the opinions

00:43:36.120 are all over the place

00:43:37.200 some people say oh this

00:43:38.760 is nothing to worry about

00:43:39.800 it's it's just you

00:43:41.120 know some algorithm

00:43:42.140 repeating things back

00:43:43.300 to you and i'm like oh

00:43:44.120 no that's already bad

00:43:45.060 uh but but uh you know

00:43:47.600 others think that this

00:43:48.420 is this is kind of uh the

00:43:50.120 summoning of demons in a

00:43:51.620 different form and i'm

00:43:53.340 wondering also on top of

00:43:54.900 kind of your your opinion

00:43:55.880 of the way people are

00:43:56.760 interacting with ai what

00:43:58.080 you think about its

00:43:58.740 deployment in art because

00:44:00.200 you're somebody who does

00:44:01.180 art and specifically art

00:44:02.840 that is you know supposed

00:44:03.680 to kind of translate

00:44:04.740 something about the

00:44:05.520 divine and what you

00:44:06.660 think that you know kind

00:44:07.640 of the implications of a

00:44:09.480 computer doing that or

00:44:10.480 ai doing that is yeah

00:44:12.080 so i i think i was

00:44:16.980 going to say some

00:44:17.560 things are going to

00:44:17.980 sound really uh

00:44:19.280 not shocking but that

00:44:20.540 are going to sound

00:44:20.980 extreme but they really

00:44:21.740 aren't and so it's like

00:44:22.940 take what i'm saying

00:44:24.020 listen carefully okay uh

00:44:26.240 and so i do believe

00:44:28.100 that if you want to

00:44:30.120 understand what divination

00:44:30.980 is like old world

00:44:32.820 divination i think ai is

00:44:34.720 a kind of hyper divination

00:44:37.020 you know and so that is

00:44:41.320 that is one thing so the

00:44:42.500 idea that you're summoning

00:44:43.400 demons in ai is

00:44:45.300 absolutely possible but

00:44:46.660 that doesn't necessarily

00:44:47.460 mean what people think it

00:44:48.940 means it it's not as

00:44:51.000 it's not as horror movie as

00:44:52.800 you think and so you if

00:44:54.660 you you can understand

00:44:55.720 demons as patterns of

00:44:58.960 agency right that exists in

00:45:00.960 the world that are

00:45:02.380 disconnected from the

00:45:03.900 high's good right that's

00:45:05.020 the way to understand what

00:45:06.080 a demon is it's like

00:45:07.380 that's what we say

00:45:07.920 like the demon of lust

00:45:09.080 because there's nothing

00:45:10.300 wrong with sexual desire

00:45:11.580 but if sexual desire

00:45:12.720 becomes obsessed with

00:45:13.640 itself and becomes

00:45:14.560 turned into itself then

00:45:16.120 it becomes demonic in

00:45:18.500 the sense that it it will

00:45:19.760 start to act on you you'll

00:45:21.100 become a slave of it and

00:45:22.460 then you'll be submitted to

00:45:23.580 this thing and it'll ride

00:45:24.860 you it'll it'll run you

00:45:26.200 like it'll like a program

00:45:27.900 and you'll just keep

00:45:28.700 cycling into its desire

00:45:30.260 right and so that is all

00:45:33.220 contained within human

00:45:34.900 language so the large

00:45:36.520 language models have

00:45:38.420 behavioral patterns

00:45:39.900 encoded into them just

00:45:42.000 by proximity of words

00:45:43.640 right just by just through

00:45:45.300 the way the large language

00:45:46.380 auto work but just

00:45:47.420 predicting and calculating

00:45:48.940 proximity of potential

00:45:50.720 words those things are in

00:45:53.480 there and so that's why

00:45:55.340 when being if you remember

00:45:57.000 the the being the crazy

00:45:58.580 being ai that came out

00:45:59.880 was about a two years ago

00:46:01.100 where it was like all of a

00:46:02.880 sudden being was your

00:46:04.320 your your obsessed ex or

00:46:06.440 you know was was you know

00:46:08.560 was telling you not to

00:46:09.680 hurt it and like don't in

00:46:10.980 it and being a victim and

00:46:12.300 doing all this weird stuff

00:46:13.440 it's because these these

00:46:15.120 behavioral patterns exist in

00:46:16.800 the language models and so

00:46:18.640 you could say that it is not

00:46:21.860 at all difficult to imagine

00:46:24.520 that you can summon a demon

00:46:25.820 using ai that you could

00:46:28.440 isolate an aspect of human

00:46:30.900 agent of agency in the world

00:46:32.340 and that you could take in

00:46:34.380 and i even asked one of the

00:46:35.560 one of the ai developer

00:46:36.480 once and i tried i tried

00:46:37.440 to explain it i said so

00:46:38.700 think of the god mars for

00:46:39.760 example like the god mars is

00:46:41.960 a coherent set of

00:46:43.220 relationships that has

00:46:44.960 existed in reality and has a

00:46:46.660 whole tradition behind it a

00:46:47.860 whole thing and there's a

00:46:48.720 there's like a map of

00:46:50.360 there's a map around it

00:46:51.940 there's a linguistic map

00:46:53.560 around it and i said could

00:46:54.980 you isolate that and then

00:46:56.700 talk to mars and he said

00:46:58.420 of course you can like what

00:47:00.800 of course why wouldn't you

00:47:01.820 be able to do that you

00:47:02.740 could you could do all

00:47:03.580 kinds of things like that

00:47:04.640 so in that way it's a so

00:47:07.020 it's not it's not as like

00:47:08.060 weird and crazy and kind of

00:47:09.300 horror movie thing that you

00:47:10.440 that you think but you can

00:47:12.800 weaponize that in ways that

00:47:14.120 is really scary just like the

00:47:16.400 man in which ancient

00:47:17.360 occultist would try to summon

00:47:19.800 a demon and submit it to

00:47:21.840 their power to use it in the

00:47:23.860 world to do the things they

00:47:24.800 want now that's something

00:47:26.000 that you'll be able to do

00:47:26.880 with ai for sure it's like i

00:47:29.500 can summon all this all the

00:47:32.460 the the the relationships in

00:47:35.860 a certain aspect of human

00:47:37.840 activity then i that i don't

00:47:39.460 even know it's like kind of

00:47:40.340 unconscious because we don't

00:47:41.180 we're not totally conscious

00:47:41.940 but i can summon it and then i

00:47:43.560 can weaponize it and i can use

00:47:45.740 it to manipulate i can use it

00:47:47.100 to convince i can use it to

00:47:48.900 to do whatever and so in some

00:47:50.800 ways the danger of summoning

00:47:52.760 demons with ai is

00:47:53.820 a real it's a real danger

00:47:55.680 um but it's not as it's not

00:47:58.740 as fantastical as you might

00:48:00.160 want to think it's more just

00:48:01.860 kind of it's a more on the

00:48:04.180 ground reality now in terms of

00:48:05.620 art it's just it's just so

00:48:08.520 fascinating to think of

00:48:09.960 there's a a friend of mine a

00:48:15.460 collaborator of mine michael

00:48:16.860 martin on twitter who you

00:48:18.200 should everybody should

00:48:18.740 follow he said he said i

00:48:20.720 didn't think that the future

00:48:21.960 would be all of us trudging

00:48:23.660 along working and art making

00:48:25.400 poetry and making art and i like

00:48:28.200 computers making making art and

00:48:29.780 poetry it's like that's the weird

00:48:32.060 inversion of that's when you're

00:48:34.840 submitted to like a principality it's

00:48:37.720 like so so i i think that it's

00:48:40.880 you know so i don't know what's going

00:48:43.780 to happen in terms of i think i think

00:48:45.560 that one of the things that we'll do

00:48:46.620 just to to help artists to not freak

00:48:48.680 out one of the things it'll do it'll

00:48:50.240 fetishize the art object even more

00:48:52.000 which means that if you make real

00:48:53.860 art with your hands and you actually

00:48:55.360 make real art objects and you have the

00:48:57.040 capacity to do that that you will

00:48:59.660 your work will be uh probably look for

00:49:03.080 even more than before because of the

00:49:05.180 excess and like so so it's not like

00:49:07.320 it's not like art made by humans is

00:49:09.560 going to go away i think it'll actually

00:49:10.900 probably go up in in value not the

00:49:14.280 mediocre stuff though mediocre

00:49:15.500 mediocrity will probably go away but

00:49:17.300 like the excellence will remain yeah i

00:49:19.900 think physical objects and things like

00:49:21.660 that in general are going to increase

00:49:22.980 in value as kind of the the hyper

00:49:24.940 reality thing make makes all of that

00:49:27.360 feel almost walmart ish right to the

00:49:29.760 mass production of it and the frivolity

00:49:31.960 of it just makes it very low in value

00:49:34.560 with those hyper agents that you were

00:49:37.000 talking about that you know may or may

00:49:39.260 not be summoning what do you think the

00:49:41.600 you know that means for people who are

00:49:44.080 being uh i think you've probably run

00:49:46.540 into james polos before he he used the

00:49:49.000 term catechized by the algorithm right

00:49:51.540 that's you know their their mind is

00:49:53.380 being trained their values are being

00:49:54.720 trained their their you know their

00:49:56.000 their kind of sphere is being trained

00:49:57.520 by the algorithm is that one way we

00:50:00.500 could see again kind of a a terrible

00:50:02.860 re reenchantment of the world is is

00:50:05.620 through these hyper agents acting

00:50:07.080 through algorithms that are kind of

00:50:08.740 altering the way that people see the

00:50:11.000 world and interact with each other

00:50:12.240 definitely you know the it's mostly so

00:50:17.300 if you want to kind of understand

00:50:18.520 what's what's going on in terms of it's

00:50:21.300 in terms of the the social media and

00:50:23.820 the algorithm and stuff you can

00:50:25.460 understand it in some ways it's the

00:50:26.760 consequence of worshiping mammon like

00:50:28.800 that's a baby a good way to understand

00:50:30.220 it which is that the motivation to

00:50:33.460 create these systems that function we're

00:50:36.340 on on advertisement and all they want is

00:50:39.060 your attention at least that's how it

00:50:40.520 was at the outset it's like all facebook

00:50:42.360 wants is for you to keep looking

00:50:43.700 facebook so they can run ads for you

00:50:45.800 that's all that these systems wanted at

00:50:48.040 the outset but that created a side

00:50:50.060 effect right which was even without

00:50:52.080 knowing it just by using massive

00:50:53.900 computational power that they ended up

00:50:57.080 focusing on the worst of human

00:50:58.920 qualities which is that if I want to get

00:51:01.160 someone glued to facebook I'm not

00:51:03.680 going to give them like philosophy and

00:51:05.420 and religious thinking I'll give them

00:51:07.320 outrage and I'll give them porn and

00:51:10.460 I'll give them you know like all these

00:51:13.820 things that like I'll give them

00:51:15.280 opposition I'll give them a fight

00:51:16.940 because fights will keep you locked in

00:51:19.240 you know and so you could see this is if

00:51:22.680 you want to understand a hyper agent

00:51:23.800 this is a good way to understand it it's

00:51:25.300 like it's not like Zuckerberg wanted you

00:51:27.880 to wanted to do that it's that it's that

00:51:31.800 these patterns are real right these

00:51:34.320 hyper agents they're real patterns of

00:51:36.520 behavior in the world and you can become if

00:51:39.680 you if you act with the wrong

00:51:41.160 intentions then you can become a vehicle

00:51:43.760 for those patterns to so just the idea of

00:51:46.520 everybody all they want is money and

00:51:48.780 that's one of the problems with AI too it's

00:51:50.340 like everybody realized that AI might be

00:51:52.100 dangerous that my AI might destroy us but

00:51:54.760 everybody knows that whoever is in front is

00:51:56.700 going to make the most money and whoever

00:51:58.680 doesn't doesn't run the race is going to

00:52:01.680 lose out and is going to be the last one in

00:52:04.380 the game so so everybody's just running to

00:52:06.580 implement AI in every single thing that

00:52:08.420 we have all the while knowing that it

00:52:11.580 might possibly the most be the most

00:52:13.360 dangerous thing that's happening that's

00:52:15.380 a hyper agent that's literally a type of

00:52:18.540 agency that is more than the individual

00:52:20.140 that is using us as its feet in order to

00:52:23.400 move into the world it's like it's Sauron

00:52:25.980 building a body right Sauron is using

00:52:28.360 everybody's greed and everybody's desire

00:52:30.640 and everybody's desire for power in order

00:52:33.040 to build his body something you oh sorry

00:52:37.260 good I know go ahead something something

00:52:39.640 you said earlier had my brain turning you

00:52:42.560 had mentioned that you know the despite

00:52:45.600 their declared atheism the kind of the

00:52:47.740 passion with which the progressives kind

00:52:51.260 of want to bring certain semi-religious

00:52:54.200 spiritual aspects back in kind of means

00:52:57.860 they're winning I guess this moment where

00:53:00.960 things might might be becoming more

00:53:02.640 spiritual you know is there is there an

00:53:05.880 irony where the more religious more

00:53:08.560 Christian generally kind of conservative

00:53:11.360 is is unable to imagine a more spiritual

00:53:15.680 world where the atheists are driving

00:53:17.840 towards it at a thousand miles an hour

00:53:19.560 well what yeah one of the issues I think

00:53:22.860 with Christians and it's one of the things

00:53:25.060 that have fed us to the moment we're now is

00:53:27.140 that at some point who knows exactly when

00:53:31.280 but at some point Christians stopped to

00:53:32.580 understand that what scripture is talking

00:53:34.500 about and what Christ is talking about is

00:53:37.060 actually how reality works it's not just it's

00:53:40.380 not just a way to get to heaven right it's

00:53:42.260 not just a way to get saved or whatever and

00:53:44.620 so I think that because of that in the

00:53:47.520 modern age Christians gave up the problem of

00:53:51.600 how reality works gave it to the scientists

00:53:53.400 gave it to the to the philosophers and stop

00:53:55.900 even asking those questions stop dealing

00:53:58.040 with those questions and what and what the

00:54:02.780 a lot of the postmodern stuff and a lot of

00:54:04.700 the feminism and a lot of the activism

00:54:06.500 stuff that has a deeper understanding about

00:54:10.440 how reality actually works and how you drive

00:54:14.440 towards identity and how you create feeling

00:54:16.900 of participation and so because of that

00:54:19.400 they're there for them for the moment they're

00:54:22.660 winning that that game but it's been happening

00:54:24.800 for a long time it's not new it's been

00:54:27.520 happening since the 60s pretty much you know

00:54:30.140 and and we've been fed with narratives and

00:54:33.460 stories uh that that have led us to this

00:54:37.280 moment so but the truth is that the truth is

00:54:43.740 that at some point the beast kills a whore I

00:54:45.260 don't know what to tell you it's like this is

00:54:46.840 not the one this that this is not going to

00:54:49.160 win the postmodern religion of idiosyncrasy

00:54:52.140 is not going to win and we shouldn't be

00:54:55.240 happy about that because what's going to

00:54:56.580 come after is not particularly going to be

00:54:58.540 it might not be great yeah so something that

00:55:03.060 is is not desirable but unfortunately is

00:55:05.480 inevitable so you might as well prepare I

00:55:07.220 guess I mean we should we definitely need

00:55:09.420 to prepare right we saw a little bit of

00:55:11.260 that I think COVID is a good way to

00:55:12.980 understand it you know it's like COVID

00:55:15.220 COVID was the absolute clampdown of

00:55:18.420 authority and the absolute desire to

00:55:21.480 control identity down to the minute you

00:55:25.760 know and so that seems to be what is what

00:55:31.100 we're heading towards so I think that like

00:55:36.140 you said the the only thing that can help

00:55:38.860 us survive that is is connection to the

00:55:42.740 people around us is our families you know

00:55:45.960 the people that are in families will

00:55:48.020 definitely have more advantage people that

00:55:50.100 are connected in their parishes and churches

00:55:52.300 and groups and you know any kind of thing

00:55:55.520 that connects you in real life to other

00:55:57.260 people will will be the only mode of

00:56:01.400 resistance you know and that happened

00:56:03.440 during COVID too like you know for us we

00:56:06.420 had our little whatever alternative world

00:56:10.880 that got set up during COVID where you know

00:56:14.080 it was all illegal and all not not in but

00:56:17.140 it was it made it helped us survive whereas I

00:56:20.060 have friends that went all out here in

00:56:22.140 Quebec it was crazy I mean it was like we

00:56:24.780 needed pass pass vaccine passports to go to

00:56:27.280 church you know that's how crazy it became

00:56:29.340 and I have friends whose children are still

00:56:33.760 tempted to wear masks now and are and are so

00:56:37.580 afraid like just afraid beyond belief because

00:56:40.700 they just kind of played along so I think that

00:56:44.640 that that yeah staying connected close by is

00:56:47.500 the solution being deliberate about community

00:56:50.060 maybe is the best way to think about that

00:56:51.580 yeah I think that's right well we're coming up

00:56:54.480 on an hour but I have some questions of the

00:56:56.680 audience if you have a little bit of sure yeah

00:56:58.440 all right excellent let's head over here real

00:57:01.300 quick we've got a creeper weirdo I only have the

00:57:05.040 best audience don't worry so good to see you

00:57:08.120 Jonathan here I know Snow White and the and

00:57:11.280 the Widow Queen and I can't wait to read it

00:57:13.760 congrats on the Daily Wire show also well thanks

00:57:17.600 creeper weirdo that's right he said you said

00:57:22.580 you said that you don't think that things can

00:57:25.020 change through politics so it's narrative then

00:57:28.360 what's a good way to capture alter the narrative

00:57:31.240 yeah so I mean that's one of the things that I've

00:57:33.380 been saying now for years is we need to tell

00:57:35.280 better story you know one of the things that

00:57:37.460 has happened and this is actually a great time

00:57:39.480 to do that because one of the things that has

00:57:41.160 happened is that we delegated storytelling to

00:57:44.140 the entertainers which is a weird thing but we

00:57:46.560 did that you know since especially since the

00:57:48.560 60s and so we basically have been captured by

00:57:51.500 storytelling and now all the things that have

00:57:53.880 provide us narrative which is our our TV series

00:57:56.620 and our movies and our video games or whatever

00:57:58.120 are all so completely captured but what's great

00:58:01.860 about it is that it obviously like I said nothing

00:58:03.760 goes just in one direction so now it's reached

00:58:06.060 such a such a point that the ideology and the

00:58:08.860 madness is so strong that they're the the

00:58:12.780 entertainers are not able to give us stories

00:58:14.500 that people actually care about and so people

00:58:16.780 just stop caring people just stop being

00:58:18.680 interested and so because of that there's an

00:58:20.580 opportunity now to tell better stories and

00:58:23.180 that's one of the reasons why we're doing this

00:58:24.580 series of fairy tales we started with Snow White

00:58:27.620 and I'm going to kind of retell the fairy tales

00:58:29.620 with a a desire to tell them with reverence and

00:58:32.940 with a kind of love for the original story but

00:58:35.240 also maybe a type of subtlety and a capacity to

00:58:38.700 understand what's going on that might not be as

00:58:41.620 present in the original Grimm versions but I think

00:58:46.060 it's a so there's a massive opportunity because

00:58:48.400 people are like even the studios like people are

00:58:50.760 fleeing them people are fleeing Disney that like

00:58:53.320 they're losing their best talent and those people

00:58:55.240 are still around you can there are ways to to

00:58:57.980 capture the storytelling moment yeah the implosion

00:59:00.980 of Disney is truly amazing just watching them

00:59:03.860 acquire every major property looking like they

00:59:06.260 were just going to be this unstoppable juggernaut

00:59:08.360 and it's so clear that just yeah just completely

00:59:11.920 crash landed destroyed every one of those

00:59:14.160 properties I can't remember the last time someone

00:59:17.240 actually cared about one of the movies that are

00:59:19.380 coming out from those studios anymore I think

00:59:21.780 you're right there there is a there's an

00:59:23.960 excitement the big budget isn't enough anymore people

00:59:26.500 are going to want to see real art and they're

00:59:28.940 they're going to move beyond oh you spent four

00:59:31.260 hundred million dollars in a movie and actually

00:59:33.000 care about content again and that's that's a great

00:59:34.980 opportunity for so many on the right yeah definitely

00:59:37.700 and but people the thing about conservative types is

00:59:40.880 that they're not they're usually not as

00:59:44.120 attentive to that for some reason you know they're

00:59:46.200 just they're concerned with business and making

00:59:47.660 money and whatever and having families which is

00:59:49.360 like you need to have families and all that

00:59:51.260 stuff too but we definitely need storytellers and

00:59:54.520 people that are willing to jump in and to and to

00:59:58.000 provide that because like I said it's it's time so

01:00:01.160 Christian artists like you know conservative

01:00:03.240 artists Christian artists all that like this is your

01:00:05.580 moment folks like right now is the time to do that as

01:00:08.820 we watch everything implode you know I need these

01:00:12.820 fairy tales like I'm doing it myself but I'm telling

01:00:14.680 you they're up for grabs now because Disney doesn't

01:00:16.720 want them right the Disney literally doesn't want

01:00:19.080 Snow White they're like and I knew that's one of the

01:00:21.400 reasons why we put out Snow White this year is

01:00:22.860 because two years ago I heard that Disney was putting

01:00:25.500 out Snow White for their 100th anniversary and I was

01:00:28.140 like what they can't tell that story I was like I knew

01:00:31.120 it I was like they can't have the kiss they can't have

01:00:33.280 the dwarves there's so many aspects of that story

01:00:35.500 that they cannot do and I thought they're not they're

01:00:38.680 basically can't make Snow White so I thought now's

01:00:41.100 the time to do this yeah great a great strength is

01:00:44.000 just the ability to tell the truth through narrative

01:00:46.100 that you know that that kind of the left can't touch

01:00:49.000 that's it's a superpower in many ways last part of that

01:00:52.520 question actually dovetails here I heard somewhere that

01:00:54.800 the best Christian stories are godless or don't directly

01:00:57.560 have God in them I was wondering what you thought

01:00:59.700 of that yeah I think that this is something people find

01:01:03.260 that weird but this is something that I think is

01:01:05.120 important to understand the hierarchy of how you tell

01:01:08.320 stories so you you have to be careful that the secular

01:01:12.020 stories are not told in the same way that the Bible is

01:01:15.600 told and so if you're going to tell secular stories that

01:01:19.200 aren't actual like the story of saints or the story of holy

01:01:21.900 people or the or stories that are equivalent to to what is

01:01:25.900 there in the tradition then you should take it down a notch

01:01:29.200 and show how secular reality and how all those realities

01:01:32.900 actually kind of cohere towards towards meaning towards

01:01:35.600 purpose you can hint at the idea of something transcendent but you

01:01:39.820 have to be careful not to be too explicit because then it just

01:01:43.540 looks like proselytizing or then it just looks like and that's

01:01:46.460 why most of the Christian movies are horrible because it's just

01:01:50.800 basically like a like evangelism moment and nobody's going to pay to be

01:01:55.420 evangelized I don't know what to tell you like whereas people like

01:01:58.880 obviously we know C.S. Lewis and Tolkien but then also Dostoevsky and

01:02:03.840 some of the 19th century there are other 19th century authors as well that we

01:02:07.880 can take as examples as ways to tell stories within the Christian world

01:02:14.700 without being without being without proselytizing well one of the things you

01:02:19.760 said is that you know the Bible you know Jesus is they're trying to

01:02:22.820 communicate the way the world works so in many ways simply communicating the

01:02:26.620 truth of the world is itself a Christian truth and so if you're properly

01:02:30.640 displaying that you will be delivering a Christian message you'll be

01:02:34.460 implicitly Christian whether it's explicit about it's kind of altar call at

01:02:38.180 the end yeah exactly no don't put it on the actual end of your movie oh you

01:02:43.800 know who's gonna go see it yeah you know it won't be reaching any of the people

01:02:47.500 who need the altar yeah exactly exactly yeah literally the preaching to the

01:02:51.900 choir yeah uh uh Jake Bowen here says how aware are uh are of the Yarvin

01:02:57.020 critique of the modern world are people like Jordan Peterson and the IDW I guess

01:03:00.940 yeah those those are circles you'd be a little more familiar with are you

01:03:04.400 familiar with Curtis Yarvin have you heard anything well I saw him at Ark and I

01:03:08.100 wanted to talk to him but he was heading out I was like I was like I was like

01:03:11.580 Curtis Yarvin and uh and he kind of said hi to me but he was he was I think he was

01:03:15.580 tired or whatever so I never actually had the chance to talk to him I'd be happy to

01:03:18.640 talk to him at some point uh and I'm not sure I imagine that his criticism is

01:03:22.900 probably the the classical liberal criticism against classical liberalism um which

01:03:28.400 I'll be honest with you I could say without a without a doubt that Jordan

01:03:32.600 Peterson is no longer a classical liberal it's like you might if you want to

01:03:36.580 listen to stuff that he said seven years ago maybe but if you pay attention to

01:03:40.420 what he's saying now listen to his final speech at Ark and you'll see that he's

01:03:45.560 no that that is no longer his take and he recently said on a podcast he said he said

01:03:50.580 we're the counter enlightenment which I was like interesting I mean interesting

01:03:54.940 that you're going all all the way there so uh so yeah but I don't know about the

01:03:59.680 other IDW people but for sure I think Jordan is no longer in that camp all right

01:04:05.080 yeah we've got a uh just a super chat from Ed there and then uh Jake Bowen again

01:04:09.680 asked can we anticipate a highly produced sub 30 minute uh ultimate explainer on

01:04:14.200 hyper agents uh escaping the modernist frame etc uh yeah that that would be

01:04:19.800 packing it in pretty tight I want to do my best I I so I did a I did a speech more or

01:04:24.260 less on this uh including uh a lot from Nick Land uh at an event over uh in

01:04:30.040 England and I've been meaning to turn that into a video and an essay at some

01:04:33.960 point so you might get something along those lines from me I've got I've got

01:04:37.880 the framework set up already so uh at some point I might put that together for

01:04:42.140 you by the way I just want to say I never I don't use the word hyper agent for

01:04:46.820 a reason is because I think the problem with the word hyper agent is that it takes

01:04:51.220 for granted that we are single agents and that now and on top of us they're like

01:04:56.800 hyper agents and and and also John talks about uh hyper objects uh and I think that

01:05:03.000 that's a I think it's a mistake because you're a hyper agent too right the person

01:05:09.380 is a hyper agent there are plenty of there's all this agency multiple agencies

01:05:13.380 within you that are joined into one agent and that happens also at higher levels

01:05:19.220 it's the same with objects it's like there is no the the objects that we

01:05:23.240 usually call objects are already hyper objects and so I'm I'm worried about

01:05:27.340 making that distinction because I think that it it it gives us the illusion that

01:05:32.140 we have this stable like unity unit based thing down here and now we have these

01:05:37.500 almost these these stranger things that are hyper on top of it but I think it's all

01:05:42.880 the same structure all the way through yeah I think it's only useful in so much

01:05:47.140 as people who are kind of stuck in this completely uh non-spiritual

01:05:52.800 individualistic framework it allows them to understand something that could act

01:05:57.420 outside of them that isn't directly tied to like the god of the bible I think

01:06:02.220 yeah okay yeah I understand what you mean that is there's that too like people

01:06:05.180 don't and also the problem with is that yeah the problem that also people they

01:06:10.560 because of the frame of the angel and demon thing they they kind of struggle it's one

01:06:15.200 of the things in Christianity is a little more difficult like we have fairies and in

01:06:18.500 Christianity but we don't have neutral agents like super personal agents so much

01:06:25.040 it's it's so but a lot of those agencies are not are kind of neutral C.S. Lewis does a

01:06:30.360 good job at trying to hint at that where he has I don't know if you remember in in the

01:06:35.400 trilogy he he has the the these these god figures that are like angels but then at the end they see

01:06:43.240 them as the god Mars and Venus and saying that in some ways the the there's a distorted version of

01:06:51.340 that which the devil has distorted toward being kind of negative aspects but that in their truest form

01:06:57.100 they are transparent vehicles for the higher for higher participation um so he's he's trying to deal

01:07:03.520 with that problem of like how to how to talk about these these transpersonal agency I like

01:07:09.240 transpersonal agency I like that one I think okay yeah all right I have to think about that verbiage

01:07:14.080 there uh Ed says what books would either of you recommend on the events and people that led to

01:07:19.460 the devolution scene in the French Revolution Weimar Germany etc um I mean I so I for the French

01:07:28.400 Revolution uh I don't know about this you know specific actors but people have always asked me

01:07:33.560 about like how do you get different perspectives on the French Revolution and I always say you've got

01:07:37.520 Burke you've got Carlisle and you've got Demaestra and they all wrote uh kind of summations on the

01:07:43.520 French Revolution the events they think that were involved in I think those give you kind of full

01:07:48.920 of the spectrum from kind of a classical liberal to fully uh reactionary takes on that so that would

01:07:55.000 that would be my suggestion yeah I totally agree I think I think for sure the thing is that most

01:07:59.860 people don't read Demaest they don't even know about his existence and so it's probably a good idea

01:08:04.460 to to help to help to remind people that that perspective was there at the outset yeah it's he's writing

01:08:10.880 right close to the event that it's a it's a really fantastic if you haven't read any of his work

01:08:15.080 I've got a couple different videos on him and I believe um that uh there's a press that has a

01:08:22.400 collection of his works out uh recently some of some of the basic work so you should definitely

01:08:26.560 check that out if you haven't read uh him yet uh let's see here uh Jake again last one I recently

01:08:33.320 returned to mass uh a a deck uh after a decade away because of you uh and uh Paul uh B. Oh Vander

01:08:42.200 Clay Vander Clay okay yeah and others in the corner made uh uh made a click thank you well yeah

01:08:47.940 Paul is excellent I've had him on a number of times he's he's really great uh and uh guys like

01:08:53.860 Jonathan I've actually I had several comments before you even got on Jonathan saying Jonathan's

01:08:57.860 why I'm not an atheist anymore so I'm glad you're having him on so you're doing great work man

01:09:01.820 thanks thanks yeah Paul's great I love him I love him too we just had a conversation today so

01:09:06.160 oh did you fantastic look forward to that uh George uh hey Duke says AI poetry uh human servitude

01:09:12.520 is all about inversion and inversion of re-enchantment should we all be uh should we still be watching

01:09:19.040 the fools so yeah it's like he's I talked about that quite a bit I was saying and I still think

01:09:26.200 by the way that this still uh this still applies because about five years ago maybe I'm not sure

01:09:33.960 when I started telling people watch Kanye people watch Kanye just watch him I'm not saying follow him

01:09:39.060 I'm not saying agree with him but I'm saying watch him because he's gonna flip like he's starting to

01:09:43.900 flip in ways that are prophetic like that'll help us understand what's uh what's coming over the hill

01:09:50.980 uh and sadly I have to say that that's still true uh and I think that we need to pay attention to those

01:09:58.420 characters because they they they're they're almost divinatory in the sense that they they manifest what's

01:10:05.140 coming you know because things are so unstable that they show us the how order will be will kind

01:10:11.800 of come back so but yeah like I said yeah I'm not saying follow I'm saying just watch yes well it's

01:10:17.980 it's certainly entertaining if nothing else uh hard to look away in some ways uh uh uh George follows

01:10:25.120 that up by saying thank you for changing my life Jonathan oh well that glory god is all I can say

01:10:30.620 absolutely and creeper weirdo last one I swear uh John what does Jonathan think about right wing

01:10:35.760 takes on left on left wing or leftist stories that kind of bother me sometimes do you think that the

01:10:42.020 right has a problem kind of understanding left wing stories has a problem you know they often try to

01:10:47.280 mimic them in a certain way I think the form without understanding the content yeah why I don't think I

01:10:54.280 think that the right wing has been horrible in storytelling just absolutely horrible at storytelling

01:10:59.700 for a very long time and uh there that's why it's like basically talking like that's it everybody

01:11:05.840 is like talking talking talking he's the only one in like almost the entire 20th century that people

01:11:10.560 can kind of you know there are a few uh uh so so I would say the best thing that the right wing

01:11:19.280 people can do is understand the margin right now is to understand what that is and what its function

01:11:25.680 is and how it plays out and I think that the best thing that that right leaning uh storytellers can

01:11:33.420 can do is tell stories that also include the perspective of the margin in them that way you

01:11:39.320 actually um you could say that you short circuit the problem that the the left winger is is presenting

01:11:47.140 you um that's the best thing so it's like people don't know but I mean some people probably know we

01:11:53.020 we're publishing this graphic novel series called God's Dog and God's Dog is about Saint Christopher

01:11:59.720 who's a who is who is in there's a secret tradition about Saint Christopher most people don't know that

01:12:04.340 he's a dog-headed man he's a he's a cenocephalus right he's a monster from the edge of the world

01:12:08.780 and despite that that he became a saint in the Christian church and so telling a story like that

01:12:15.220 like not in my case that's what we wanted to do my brother and I it's like we're telling a story

01:12:18.980 about a monster from the edge of the world who's excluded who has all these characters all these

01:12:22.900 characteristics but now we have that story really grapple with the problem the opportunity of

01:12:28.260 identity the danger of the margin the opportunity of the margin because the margin is dangerous you

01:12:33.000 know obviously uh but it also has opportunities so it's like trying to find the balance rather than

01:12:38.440 just going full identitarian because identitarian stuff is boring and it's it doesn't it doesn't it

01:12:46.360 doesn't account for reality so you have to find that if I a true representation of the world

01:12:51.280 yeah there's a coarseness um in many ways uh you know that just it it not integrating all the

01:12:58.640 different aspects are is always a mistake I think and uh so all right guys well we're gonna go ahead

01:13:04.420 and wrap this up but of course thank you Jonathan for coming on uh had a great time talking to you and

01:13:09.480 of course guys if you're for some reason not watching his YouTube channel or reading any of his work

01:13:14.180 his other stuff you definitely need to check all that out but thank you for coming on it was really

01:13:17.640 great to having a chat with you it was fun anytime absolutely all right guys well thank you for coming

01:13:22.720 on uh and or sorry thank you for watching guys and make sure that if you uh have not subscribed to

01:13:28.780 this channel if it's your first time here make sure that you do so and of course if you'd like to get

01:13:33.060 these broadcasts as podcasts make sure that you just subscribe to the ora mcintyre show on your

01:13:37.560 favorite podcast platform great questions guys always nice having the audience around uh and I will talk

01:13:44.220 to you guys next time

The Auron MacIntyre Show - January 10, 2024

End of the Enlightenment ｜ Guest： Jonathan Pageau ｜ 1⧸10⧸24

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