The Auron MacIntyre Show - Gilles Deleuze and Societies of Control ｜ Guest： Last Things ｜ 6⧸19⧸24

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00:00:30.280 Hey, everybody. How's it going?

00:00:32.260 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.820 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

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00:01:24.240 So joining me this afternoon is one of my favorite guests.

00:01:29.160 He did a great job at the recent OGC conference, the great old Glory Club conference,

00:01:35.560 giving a talk on Gilles Deleuze and a lot of the different concepts that are involved with that philosopher.

00:01:43.460 Today, I want to drill down specifically on the idea of control societies.

00:01:48.240 It dovetails pretty well with what I've been outlining in the total state.

00:01:52.860 I think it'd be very valuable to explore the concept from a different angle,

00:01:57.940 from a philosopher that is oftentimes associated with postmodernism,

00:02:02.320 which I think is something that will scare some people,

00:02:05.480 but I think is essential to investigate as we try to understand the world around us.

00:02:10.720 So joining me today is YouTuber LastThings.

00:02:13.440 Thanks for coming on, man.

00:02:15.600 Oren, it's always an honor and a pleasure.

00:02:17.920 And I think this may very well be the most TheoryCell live stream that you will have posted to date.

00:02:25.120 We might even be giving like Gio a run for his money.

00:02:28.200 I was going to say, man, I don't know.

00:02:29.480 I've had some pretty hardcore TheoryCell interviews.

00:02:33.560 I myself have delivered a few of them,

00:02:36.300 but you definitely gave one of those TheoryCell talks at the Old Glory Club.

00:02:40.240 But it was unanimously considered one of the best.

00:02:43.840 I think you did an excellent job.

00:02:46.200 We're only going to be exploring one aspect of that,

00:02:48.480 but I really hope that you flesh out the rest of it on your own channel

00:02:50.900 because it really was a fantastic talk.

00:02:53.420 You covered a lot of ground.

00:02:55.020 I think it's very valuable information for people to understand.

00:02:58.420 But before we dive into all that, guys,

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00:04:10.100 All right, guys, let's hit the ground running because we've got a lot of ground to cover.

00:04:14.360 So last things, obvious question here.

00:04:17.240 First, what are societies of control?

00:04:20.500 How do they differ from the way that societies have always existed?

00:04:23.240 Isn't there always some level of control in societies?

00:04:26.800 Yeah, totally.

00:04:27.740 Let's do this, Oren.

00:04:29.500 We're going to make all of this obscure French theory as legible as humanly possible.

00:04:37.680 Oh, sorry.

00:04:38.240 Before we get into that, I should have started here because I think it's important to address

00:04:42.200 real quick since we are talking about obscure French theorists.

00:04:45.960 Gilles Deleuze is a postmodernist by most understandings.

00:04:51.020 Why are we looking at his stuff?

00:04:53.060 Isn't he dangerous?

00:04:54.700 Isn't this the postmodern traditionalist right that I've heard so much about that's so dangerous?

00:04:59.220 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:05:02.240 Yeah, no, I think it's I've kind of made it a little bit of a pet project of mine to attempt

00:05:07.980 to I call it like I call it the based baptism to take some of these postmodern ideas or postmodern

00:05:15.460 thinkers and try to investigate how they're actually in many ways kind of more useful and even credible

00:05:23.600 for people with right leaning dispositions.

00:05:27.840 So the concept of the control society is actually a bit of an improvisation and an evolution that Deleuze makes off of a few ideas of Michel Foucault's, another French postmodernist.

00:05:43.800 So Foucault had these these two notions.

00:05:47.620 The first is the sovereign society and the discipline society.

00:05:52.840 And these kind of map up more or less easily with what you could center could consider feudalism for a sovereign society and industrialization with a disciplinary society.

00:06:05.780 So sovereign societies were very interested in sort of taxing their subjects.

00:06:11.880 You can think of sort of, you know, fiefdoms or agrarian kind of feudal culture.

00:06:18.340 And the disciplinary society really evolves alongside industrialization and the industrial revolution.

00:06:25.240 And Foucault uses he has these concepts of what he calls institutions of enclosure that that typify the kind of institutions for a disciplined society.

00:06:37.820 So he he names like the factory, the school, the barracks, the hospital, all of these institutions that subjects of disciplinary societies sort of pass in and out of throughout different stages of one's life.

00:06:55.760 But it's very sort of linear.

00:06:58.040 It's very sequential.

00:06:59.900 You can just he actually there's this kind of famous experiment that Foucault runs.

00:07:03.980 It's rather depressing. But if you look at aerial photographs of prisons versus hospitals versus public school buildings versus, you know, military barracks, that it's it's impossible to differentiate them.

00:07:19.960 They're all just sort of architecturally, visually synonymous, which explains how depressing most of us found high school.

00:07:27.480 But so Deleuze takes these these ideas and he's not he's not counter signaling these.

00:07:34.460 He's not saying that that Foucault's model is incorrect.

00:07:37.040 But what he what he did do is he came out with this essay in the early 90s called Postscript on Societies of Control.

00:07:45.140 And what he was pointing out in this essay is essentially that Foucault's model of the disciplinary society was very quickly becoming extinct.

00:07:54.840 And this is happening as the West and America deindustrializes.

00:08:00.820 This is happening alongside the the rise of the computer.

00:08:05.460 This is still, you know, early 90s.

00:08:07.040 It's not like the Internet is ubiquitous or computer technology has really taken over the way it has now.

00:08:14.020 But he posited the control society to say that this is that we're entering sort of a new stage of political power where power and and power's subjects are going to be organized in a very, very different manner.

00:08:30.360 It's no longer this sort of sequential sort of assembly line domination that you see coming out of industrial societies.

00:08:40.200 And he calls it the control society because he feels that the methods of control are becoming much more sort of continuous and and diffuse and elusive and what he would call cybernetic.

00:08:57.520 And I think it's a bit telling that this is just a few years before films like like The Matrix came out.

00:09:05.280 You could sort of consider The Matrix as something that a bit of a synonym for a control society.

00:09:11.380 So a control society is not it is not interested in controlling its subject or disciplining its subjects, I should say, in the manner of a disciplinary society where where they they want to extract, you know, 10 hours of labor for from you per day in an assembly line.

00:09:31.140 They're not concerned with production or energy because that's no longer really the economy of the West.

00:09:39.240 Control societies are are societies that do not want to give their subjects the impression that they are denying you any possibilities or or preventing you from doing something, something they and this this is what is somewhat Matrix like about them.

00:09:57.300 They want to get provide you with a certain kind of illusion of freedom and and decision making and choice.

00:10:06.720 So it's it's it's it's far more complicated.

00:10:11.140 He also used words words like, you know, a a network and a web to control society.

00:10:17.460 Again, very kind of prescient and telling given given given the rise of the Internet.

00:10:22.500 But essentially he I mean, Deleuze always uses machines conceptually.

00:10:27.100 That's that sort of symbolism, his imagery.

00:10:29.320 And he would say that we're sort of we're moving away from the the the the machinic symbol of society being like, you know, industrialized equipment, per se, or like a fact, a factory machine, like a mill or a lathe into a society that's its closest sort of machinic analog is that of that of the computer.

00:10:52.380 I do find it interesting, the shifts here, you know, you talk about the sovereign society and obviously this is feudal, mostly agrarian production is the way that this is ordered.

00:11:05.460 And of course, people are bound to the land in many cases, their serfs or they're bound to the Lord.

00:11:11.380 But the the idea that kind of the state itself needs to have a direct day to day kind of say over every one of your thoughts and your feelings is is kind of outrageous.

00:11:24.740 Right. That doesn't really exist. And then it shifts to these societies of control and the industrial society.

00:11:30.300 And in this scenario, humanity is more concentrated.

00:11:34.120 Everyone has to pour through these institutions.

00:11:36.060 There's only so many ways to organize masses of humanity, which is why prisons and schools look the same, because whatever you can, you know, schools are functionally prisons for children.

00:11:47.160 But even if they weren't, like just the necessity of housing that many people and organizing them and rotating them through different stations and everything that's involved in a factory or prison or a school shares this.

00:12:00.360 And this is the one Foucault book everybody has to read in college.

00:12:02.500 I had to read it, you know, when he talks about this and the way that all of these these different architectures are driven by the function of these different institutions to manage society in this particular way.

00:12:16.380 But then the shifts to the control society seems to be one of dematerialization.

00:12:22.320 It's the way in which we no longer need to exist inside perhaps these shared spaces on a regular basis, the institution and the idea that we would share as a mass man, these institutions starts to go away.

00:12:34.920 But we need we still need to share the same idea space.

00:12:38.240 And so the freedom like you're talking about from the control society comes from the idea that perhaps there's an illusion of constant choice.

00:12:46.060 There's this, you know, the dematerialized institution no longer governs every one of your actions and no longer guides you in a physical sense from one place to another.

00:12:57.280 But it hurts you mentally through the narrowing of these different ideas.

00:13:01.820 Yeah, that's that's that's very well put.

00:13:03.720 I think this is especially true since since COVID, since at least, you know, a very large share of sort of, you know, white collar information economy employees are just kind of working remotely from from home.

00:13:18.240 So a lot of people's lives don't don't even sort of superficially resemble resemble this discipline society where you you're passing in and out of these discrete institutions of, you know, the office where you go from nine to five before you return to the to the household.

00:13:36.220 You might, you might, you might, you might, you might, you might, you might, in some ways, physically, and superficially have more more freedom, and that you just have a home office, or what have you.

00:13:46.080 But we are kind of dealing with this panopticon of being monitored via things like, like social media.

00:13:59.740 And, yeah, so people's sense of being being watched and being monitored is not just simply limited to, to a factory or an assembly line.

00:14:14.500 And the way I think the most helpful image that Deleuze offers as a means of kind of understanding that the control society, it's one I mentioned in my talk is the concept of, of the freeway, right?

00:14:30.200 And I think the freeway is, it's the freeway, it's, especially within sort of like American mythos, it's got this kind of really powerful association with freedom and independence.

00:14:43.720 You know, you know, you could, you just think of your standard sort of sports car commercial of somebody, you know, cruising down a, you know, five lane freeway.

00:14:53.420 And, you know, seeing these beautiful vistas, you can, you can switch lanes, you can go at incredible speeds.

00:15:01.600 However, it is, nonetheless, this, this mechanism, which is only really steering you in a certain direction, you're only provided, you know, certain exits.

00:15:16.740 You know, you know, the, the freeway is usually kind of a donut, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's circular.

00:15:25.860 So that there is actually sort of very limited prescribed creativity when it comes to something like a tree, a freeway.

00:15:34.920 And yet it's presented to people as this, this image of, of kind of complete liberation and, and freedom when it's nothing but.

00:15:45.920 You're a film guy, right?

00:15:47.360 You've seen, you've seen Terry Gilliam's Brazil.

00:15:49.880 Oh yeah.

00:15:50.680 Yeah.

00:15:50.940 Yeah.

00:15:51.560 It's one of my favorite things about that movie is he's so is the main character is so excited to like get out of the bureaucracy.

00:15:58.020 He gets into his car, he's going to get to drive somewhere.

00:16:00.660 So he doesn't have to, you know, sit inside the, you know, kind of the bureau and he gets under the highway and it's just a tunnel, you know, like he's out, but you could like, they show from the outside, you can see that he's out.

00:16:13.180 It's, you know, he's outside, but inside the freeway, it's just nothing but billboards, you know, there's no way to see outside of the billboards.

00:16:20.000 Yeah.

00:16:20.360 You're on the highway, but you're, the entire experience is still enclosed.

00:16:24.600 You're, you're, you know, theoretically choosing your path, but every moment is still completely tunneled and guided into particular direction.

00:16:31.680 Yeah, no, I would count Brazil.

00:16:34.540 I mean, it's earlier.

00:16:35.600 I think it came out in the eighties, but there are a lot of films that I think are helpful tools for, for discussing and articulating the control society that came out in, in the nineties.

00:16:47.880 Um, the other two, there's kind of a, a Trinity, um, alongside the matrix, um, there's fight club, which I discussed in my talk and, uh, office space.

00:16:57.420 All of those movies actually came out in, in 1999, but Brazil was kind of ahead of its time.

00:17:03.020 Um, George Bagby actually selected that, uh, film to discuss in the, the last picture shows film festival this year.

00:17:10.460 Um, and it was, it was one of my favorites, but that, that absolutely is, you're, you're right, Oren, to, to have that come to mind.

00:17:18.080 Cause it's 100% a control society kind of, uh, um, story.

00:17:24.500 Um, but yeah, so, um, although there's not much, yeah, I mean, it's, it, it doesn't have a lot of internet, um, internet imagery.

00:17:35.480 Right.

00:17:36.160 Yeah.

00:17:36.560 It doesn't, it doesn't capture maybe some of, some of the matrixes, uh, techno flare, but it, it is a precursor to a lot of that.

00:17:44.280 So what are some of the mechanisms beyond, uh, you know, kind of the obvious that we've talked about that would indicate that you're, you're in a control society.

00:17:55.440 How is it, you know, we, we've talked a little bit about the dematerialization there, but what specifically is making sure that you're following kind of the ruling order while feeling like you have this,

00:18:06.380 additional, uh, additional, uh, level of freedom?

00:18:09.660 That, that's a really good question.

00:18:12.220 I think in some ways it's, it's almost easier to, um, to, to, to define the moments when you know that you, you are not.

00:18:22.460 Um, I mean, really anything that, uh, I mean, I get, I mean, well, two, two concepts that Deleuze has, and I'm not going to get too deep into, you know, the theory cell waters here,

00:18:34.500 but these are maybe useful concepts.

00:18:36.560 Uh, Deleuze has the, the idea of two sciences that he presents, but there's one, which he calls royal science and another, which he calls nomad science.

00:18:46.400 And royal science is really sort of science, like capital S science, as you would come to know it, which would be any sort of, um, any discipline, any, any STEM, uh, uh, discipline or, or subject matter expertise that has a kind of instrumental purpose within society.

00:19:08.400 Whether we're talking about, you know, engineering or, uh, or chemistry or, or what have you, if it has a sort of, um, instrumental mechanistic utility, um, for a control society, uh, if it will kind of land you a job, if it will, if it will, um, you know, get you, get you a mortgage.

00:19:31.540 If it will, um, you know, help, um, help support the economy.

00:19:36.820 Those are all things that he groups under royal science.

00:19:41.620 And I would say, even if you, and then that's not, and this is not to say royal science, bad nomad science, good, because there's, there's plenty of, you know, instrumental sciences, is, is, is necessary and good much of the time.

00:19:53.900 Um, but the other category, which is a bit more elusive and strange is, is what he terms nomad science.

00:20:02.420 And this is really, it's, it's difficult and it's elusive because he, he does mean, he is approaching this as, as a science.

00:20:11.540 He's not, he's not, he's not labeling it science to be, to be, to be glib, but it is sort of what Deleuze considers to be the, the systematic study of liberation and, uh, non-instrumental subjectivity for human beings.

00:20:32.700 Sort of how, like studying a human, uh, how humans can maximize their, their freedom and potential.

00:20:40.500 Um, but he goes about it in a very, very, uh, systematized kind of scientific programmatic way.

00:20:48.820 He does believe that sort of, um, um, one can study and articulate how to escape the machinations of a control society, um, in the same manner that you would study to earn like an, an, an engineering degree.

00:21:05.280 There is, there is something, there is a like facticity about it.

00:21:10.020 Um, there's a concreteness to the science.

00:21:12.080 So what he's calling nomad science is really anything's, anything that maximizes one's, uh, escape velocity or freedom from a, a control society.

00:21:24.760 Yeah.

00:21:25.220 I feel like Deleuze just kind of throws nomad in front of anything like when he, when he wants to talk about escaping.

00:21:31.240 That's the, that's his kind of watch word.

00:21:33.700 If you pop up, then, then that's, that's, uh, his go-to, uh, it's weird too.

00:21:39.940 I mean, nomad, sorry, sorry to jump on you.

00:21:42.220 No, no, go ahead.

00:21:43.260 I know nomad is a, a, a.

00:21:46.520 Ooh, French lavender soy blend candle.

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00:21:52.140 Hmm.

00:21:52.860 Well, I don't know.

00:21:54.880 Ah, mom's going to love it.

00:21:56.220 She'll take one sniff and be transported to that anniversary trip you took to Saint-Tropez a few years ago.

00:22:01.160 Forget it.

00:22:01.720 She complained about her sunburn the whole trip.

00:22:04.420 It's only $14.

00:22:06.560 $14?

00:22:07.040 Now that's a vacation I can get behind.

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00:22:12.240 Everyone approves only at home sense.

00:22:15.760 It's something a little bit hard to pin down as well.

00:22:18.160 Cause he, he talks about various different kind of nomadic groups.

00:22:22.660 Um, he and his co-writer, uh, Guattari were very interested in like, like Genghis Khan.

00:22:28.620 I got, that's probably the early instances of the, the nomad.

00:22:32.780 Um, because he sort of juxtaposed the, the kind of nomadic, um, you know, uh, Mongol hordes that were very kind of fluid and, um, uh, occupied flat spaces.

00:22:47.640 You know, the flat, uh, land of, of the Mongols, flat spaces are usually like, you know, a sign that it's something that Deleuze is keen on.

00:22:56.240 And he can kind of contrast that to the, like highly bureaucratized and mechanistic sort of like Chinese empire that they were kind of constantly, um, at war with.

00:23:07.060 But he also talks about, um, no, the nomadic people who like the journeyman nomads who, uh, in the medieval period built many of the, um, like the greatest sort of, uh, Gothic cathedrals.

00:23:23.260 Um, I didn't actually know much about this in history at all until I, I, I started reading Deleuze, but a lot of the people, the, the most beautiful kind of, um, cathedrals that you see in, in Europe were created by these sort of the, these journeymen who would just travel from, you know, country to country or principality to principality and deploy, um, their, their art.

00:23:46.860 And, and, and, and their science, um, and his point in kind of, uh, focusing on them is they are these, on the one hand, they have this very concrete skillset.

00:23:56.500 You know, you don't build the Sistine Chapel just by being this kind of, um, uneducated, unrefined nomad.

00:24:06.240 Um, but it is this level of artistry and engineering that is kind of deployed, uh, creatively, I mean, or in that sense.

00:24:16.860 In that particular circumstance, like, you know, for the, for the glory of God, it's this beautification.

00:24:22.020 It's just attempting to create the most sort of elevated, beautiful, um, structures that they can, that they can fathom or that they can achieve.

00:24:32.800 And then they sort of go on and try to outdo themselves with, with the next cathedral that they, that they build.

00:24:38.800 Um, no, no etymological relation between this Deleuzian Cathedral and like Moldbugs cathedrals. 1.00

00:24:45.740 That's a different, uh, schema, but so I, that's, that's part of what a couple examples of why he's always fixated on like the, the nomadic as the, like the truly, the truly liberated, um, person or tribe.

00:25:01.380 Well, I definitely want to dive deeper into some of these, uh, connections to the total state.

00:25:07.480 I think that we're, uh, approaching a observation from two different directions with it, which I think is always useful, but I also want to talk about what he suggests possibly to escape these societies of control.

00:25:18.700 Because obviously, uh, you know, he's not going to introduce this term in this understanding, uh, unless he's going to tell us that there's an alternative or a way to, to kind of rupture this, this current status quo.

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00:26:59.120 All right, so something I was thinking about, of course, when I was looking at the societies of control is that this observation probably wouldn't sound strange to most right wingers.

00:27:13.380 This is not in this increasingly while this would have been a mostly left wing critique of our current society when it was first made in the 90s.

00:27:23.700 I think that it became, you know, became pretty obvious to everybody that this is a real thing.

00:27:29.660 You know, most when I talk about the shift, you know, we obviously we talk about, like you said, these sovereign societies.

00:27:38.260 This is usually the feudal model that this original understanding a lot of people have.

00:27:43.980 And that gets undermined by the control society or, you know, Sam Francis would see this as the shift between the feudal and the bourgeoisie order and the way that that shifted into kind of the original capitalistic mode of production.

00:28:00.040 But then, you know, Sam Francis identifies the shift into what we're now calling the society of control as a shift into managerialism.

00:28:09.180 Right. And and this is where bourgeoisie capitalism because something becomes something different.

00:28:14.380 It becomes a different mode of production, a different mode of control, a different way to order society.

00:28:20.520 I wonder what Deleuze would would call this shift, like how he would see this, who he thinks is now in control.

00:28:27.500 Would he identify the managers?

00:28:29.040 Does he specify who he thinks the shift belongs to?

00:28:33.240 Or is this just kind of the general like leftist?

00:28:35.920 That's the you know, it's the man.

00:28:39.840 That's a great question.

00:28:41.000 And yeah, I mean, obviously, I've been reading your book, Oren.

00:28:44.700 I'm almost through it.

00:28:46.340 And there are plenty of through lines that there's plenty of resonance with a lot of Deleuze's ideas with some of the the thinkers that you profile.

00:28:58.240 Well, in your various chapters, and I think that it's it's it's it's a challenge.

00:29:06.840 I don't think that Deleuze would necessarily.

00:29:12.760 Point the finger at a specific human human agency in the way that, you know, the capitalist is the boogeyman or for for Marx or other leftists.

00:29:26.380 It's it's it's really just sort of the the fact that a control society and the the systems.

00:29:34.940 The machine itself just kind of takes on a logic of its its own.

00:29:42.300 And so people are things aren't driven so much as so much by by conscious actors who are, you know, delighting and exploiting people's labor.

00:29:55.680 As it's really just everybody attempting to kind of keep pace with the control society.

00:30:03.320 It is this. It has it has, I guess, this lack of formalism, like you talk about in the book where there's not.

00:30:11.520 But I mean, there are certainly, you know, very powerful people, there are entrepreneurs, there are, you know, people that own.

00:30:18.620 Corporations, but I think he does kind of differentiate between the, you know, I guess the the factory owner of the disciplinary society or sort of like, you know, maybe the big if you're in like a company town and the big man in town is a just the one that happens to own the factory where everybody works.

00:30:41.620 Works, whereas the control society, it's much more about the, you know, the entrepreneur that has this sort of portfolio of various companies across different industries that he uses the imagery of surfing quite often, which is a bit a bit strange as well.

00:31:04.720 But, you know, but, you know, the most powerful people within the control societies are sort of people that exist above and outside the means of production in some way.

00:31:17.800 So I think it's it's much harder to for anybody to to to point the finger at anybody as as somebody that's that's holding the reins.

00:31:28.260 So with this distributed system, when you don't have a particular person to target or a class to target, what then does he think should be the solution here?

00:31:39.980 Does he offer one? Does he give any kind of escape, any kind of way to reorder things or for the individual to take action?

00:31:47.780 Great, great, great question, Oren.

00:31:49.360 So I would I would I would say that I think at least from my reading of Deleuze and I'm not trying to claim to be a Deleuze scholar or an expert, I would sort of describe him as somebody who is a pessimist for the many, but an optimist for the few.

00:32:08.540 I think he he does always feel like there is a minority of individuals or tribes or groups of people that can achieve a kind of escape from the the control society.

00:32:25.720 I mean, the other major concept and one I touched on in my talk that he sort of sets in in juxtaposition and contrast to to the state or the machine or the control society is this concept of the nomad war machine.

00:32:44.240 And again, one thing that's very complicated in Deleuze is with most thinkers, whether they're right wing or left wing, it's like, you know, machine bad, you know, non machine good.

00:32:54.620 Right. Like, you know, we're human, we're human beings, we're, you know, we're part of nature.

00:32:59.820 If there's anything that's trying to render us into a machine, it's it's it's usually, you know, a sign, a sign of evil.

00:33:08.500 But for Deleuze, whether he has machines of captivity and he has machines of liberation.

00:33:14.060 So even when he's describing something that is, you know, a positive trajectory for people,

00:33:21.440 it's still couched in this kind of technological language.

00:33:25.880 But but the nomad war machine is essentially, again, a very slippery concept.

00:33:32.900 I'm not going to get to theory cell here, but the idea, broadly speaking, is it's.

00:33:41.080 Well, the first thing to say about it is that it doesn't actually have anything to do with with war.

00:33:45.180 I know, like nomad war machine, it sounds like a rage against the machine album or something.

00:33:50.720 Right. Like you would immediately think, oh, like the war machine, like, you know, Raytheon or the Pentagon.

00:33:57.600 But I would like to see it as the as the next Mad Max movie.

00:34:00.840 Yeah. Oh, totally. Right.

00:34:01.920 It's it should be the title of a Mad Max movie, but he's not he's not using the term war here in any kind of typical manner.

00:34:12.940 In fact, like war as we know it, like, you know, like militarized violence.

00:34:17.100 That's something that is is part of the state apparatus or the mega machine.

00:34:22.360 And what what he's talking about with war is really more are sort of just kind of primal, wild.

00:34:36.260 On on.

00:34:40.020 Yeah, I'm always tempted to use concepts like, you know, like the the the id or libido to talk about it, even though like Deleuze hated Freud.

00:34:48.880 He wrote a book called Anti-Oedipus, which is about how he's not a Freudian.

00:34:52.360 But it is it is sort of this aspect of human nature that just rebels and recoils and refuses from instrumentality or being becoming mechanized.

00:35:06.240 It's this kind of primordial force that that people always have that just tries to shake off any kind of chains of of control or or or discipline.

00:35:19.560 So that's the nomad war machine is sort of what he describes.

00:35:25.380 And I guess they're kind of different kind of subroutines to it or different aspects to it.

00:35:30.300 But the nomad science, for example, I suppose, would be the study of the nomad war machine and how it operates.

00:35:38.980 It's I don't know if you have a different take on it or in or if you've I know you've read a fair amount of Deleuze.

00:35:46.780 I don't know if you've read into the nomad war machine.

00:35:49.040 I really only read Anti-Oedipus, but I guess the main thing that I think about is when I kind of hear his strategy.

00:35:59.600 Is this this makes me think of perhaps kind of the Bapians right on Twitter? 0.99

00:36:06.700 Yes.

00:36:07.140 Yeah, they're they're creating this chaos.

00:36:10.060 They're creating, you know, very much the nomadic planes raid, you know, just raid things. 0.78

00:36:15.500 Don't worry about society.

00:36:17.800 Don't worry about order.

00:36:19.640 Just just kind of embrace this kind of Nietzschean will and drive out.

00:36:25.660 And and this will allow you to escape kind of the society of control.

00:36:32.260 That's why so much of this is done anonymously.

00:36:35.500 It's done online.

00:36:36.260 It's done in spaces where it's still safe to be absurd or it's you know, you can push these limits and you can generate these contradictions without, you know, that's that's.

00:36:47.800 That's not a problem.

00:36:48.740 That's, you know, that's a solution, you know.

00:36:51.360 Yeah.

00:36:51.800 Yeah.

00:36:52.000 And so that's what I think about.

00:36:54.140 Yeah, I think that's a that's a that's a great example.

00:36:57.020 You know, part of why I talked about Fight Club in my talk is that, you know, this Fight Club and eventually Project Mayhem and even sort of the figure of Tyler Durden to do to some extent present us with these kind of nomadic kind of kind of elements.

00:37:17.160 I do think that one other term that we could introduce is Deleuze's notion of the line of flight and the line of flight is I've found no better way of just articulating it than than than Justin Murphy does.

00:37:34.520 I think he does it in his book based Deleuze where he did basically describes a line of flight as the the galaxy brain moment.

00:37:42.360 Like if you remember the meme or essentially a line of flight is when you have an idea, it could be an idea.

00:37:50.240 It could be an idea to become like a anonymous Internet philosopher.

00:37:56.420 It could be the idea for a startup company.

00:37:59.900 It could be the, you know, love for a group of people or or a woman.

00:38:08.120 But it is basically a an idea that is not instrumental or is not systematized and and exists.

00:38:17.820 It's it's sort of this eruption of creativity and what Deleuze calls kind of an affective drive, A-F-F-E-C-T, affective, like it's coming from within you.

00:38:30.100 If you go back to Brazil, think about all of those kind of dream sequences where the protagonist is has wings.

00:38:37.100 Right. He's kind of engaging in this daydream of this this line of flight.

00:38:40.680 But it's it's a creative endeavor. It's some sort of vision that exists completely outside of the structure of the control society.

00:38:52.040 It's not something like, you know, becoming more effective at your job.

00:38:56.100 It's something that really does break through, gets you off of the freeway.

00:39:00.540 I think the thing that Deleuze cautions us about is that a lot of line lines of flight do ultimately prove to be kind of doomed, like they don't achieve an escape velocity.

00:39:16.980 Um, another example of this is in in Fight Club, um, Tyler Durden's sort of initial creative energy, his line of flight devolves into this project mayhem, which really kind of becomes this, uh, it becomes what Deleuze would call re-territorialized.

00:39:35.980 Um, they just sort of become these vandals and this terrorist organization, um, and instead of kind of continuing to pursue a real kind of authentic existence and autonomy free from the control society, they just become completely destructive as opposed to truly creative.

00:39:58.920 Um, and I think Deleuze, to tie that back into Deleuze's concept of, you know, pessimism for the many, uh, and optimism for the few, um, a lot of, a lot of lines of flight do end up getting, uh, re-territorialized, uh, by, by the state, um, becoming, um, reincorporated into the freeway system of, uh, of the logic and, and mechanistics of a control society.

00:40:28.340 But, um, but he does feel like there are, are people out there, unfortunately, because he was writing, you know, in a time of kind of hegemonic left-wing thinking, the only examples that I, concrete examples that I know that he gave were of like burgeoning, like hippie communes in Europe, which have probably all completely disintegrated.

00:40:50.820 Um, but he does have, I, I, I do consider him to be a bit more of an optimist than somebody like Nick Land.

00:40:58.240 Um, I don't think that Deleuze is, uh, an accelerationist, but I do think he, he, he feels like there are just these kind of pockets of potential freedom for, for very kind of creative and wit and willful individuals or groups.

00:41:13.940 Not to challenge your authority as the, as the movie guru, but I always, uh, thought of the moment of re-territorialization in Fight Club being when he basically kills that drive in himself to like rejoin himself to Marla, right?

00:41:30.540 Like that's, I feel, it feels like that's the end of the, uh, the end of that.

00:41:36.380 See, I think that that, that, that's, I mean, that's a very common interpretation of the film.

00:41:41.000 And, and I think, uh, a more pessimistic interpretation of the film than I have, Oren, um, I think that part of there's, it's actually a, a kind of a victorious moment.

00:41:52.580 And when his, when his line of flight achieves escape velocity, when he kills Tyler Durden, um, or when he kind of turns the gun on himself, because if he stayed, if he stayed kind of tied to Durden and tied to, um, project mayhem, which again, like it's sort of, there's two slaveries that the narrator experiences in that there's like, you know, he, he's a slave to his job at the insurance company.

00:42:19.320 You know, he's, uh, you know, very unhappy, caught in this control society, but then, um, project mayhem, which eventually, which kind of becomes this line of flight.

00:42:31.200 It gets born out of fight club.

00:42:32.900 Uh, it too turns, it starts to become, uh, what Deleuze would call axiomatized or re-territorialized and that it becomes like really bureaucratic.

00:42:44.800 And the members of project mayhem are still acting very slavish.

00:42:50.260 It's just now, um, uh, Edward Norton is their dear leader and they're looking, I mean, I've read Paul Gottfried or, and I know we both have.

00:42:58.500 So I understand that like fascistic is a like pretty overused term, but there is something that becomes very fascistic about project mayhem.

00:43:08.500 Um, you know, they're just, they can't seem to make any decisions without their dear leader.

00:43:12.620 They've sort of just become slaves to, um, this, this arbitrary authority of Tyler Durden, as opposed to the diffuse authority of, um, of the control society.

00:43:26.020 And I think that, um, you know, if that's one sort of step towards his liberation, the second step towards liberation that, uh, Edward Norton has in that film is when he sort of, um, leaves Tyler Durden, leaves the, the kind of ego ideal that he's created for himself, uh, through that, um, that, that, that character and the, um, and, and project mayhem.

00:43:52.680 Um, and, uh, you know, uh, I, I think that I have an optimistic reading of the film and that I think that he and Marla Singer, um, are going to become, uh, a kind of a nomadic couple.

00:44:07.040 Like, I don't think they're going to return.

00:44:09.140 I don't think that he's going to return and just rule in Tyler's stead as the, um, you know, supreme dictator of project mayhem, nor do I think that he's going to go back to his insurance company job.

00:44:22.000 And they're going to get a house in the suburbs and he's going to have a 90 minute commute while Marla chain smokes. 0.97

00:44:27.740 I think, um, maybe I'm being too romantic, uh, feel free to tell me if I am, but I think that, uh, a positive reading of the film is that he, he now has a sort of, um, an understanding of him, circumstance, his circumstances, and he's been empowered to, uh, bring.

00:44:48.360 His kind of full creativity and, um, effective drives to bear on his life.

00:44:55.560 And it's a life that he's going to, um, to go forward and, and, and make with Marla.

00:45:02.160 Um, I know, and like when I saw it as a, I mean, the movies, I've been watching it since I was a teenager.

00:45:07.400 I probably had a very similar reading on it when I was younger.

00:45:10.840 I think it's only after reading a lot of Deleuze and being middle-aged that I've, I've come to consider what the film points to.

00:45:20.140 And granted, it's not, it's not conclusive, but, um, the older I get, the more of an optimistic read I have on Fight Club.

00:45:27.500 Um, last thing I want to ask you about before we go to the questions of the people, uh, you know, a lot of Deleuze is about liberation, as you say, uh, it's about, you know, basically shattering all these connections.

00:45:39.740 Deleuze is not a fan of territorialization.

00:45:43.460 In fact, you said you don't think he's an accelerationist, but of course, the, the several accelerationism is born inside of his quote about the, uh, you know, maybe, maybe we need to increase the flows.

00:45:55.920 Maybe things are not de-territorialized enough.

00:45:58.860 Maybe we need to, uh, move, you know, move even deeper into this process in order to go ahead and, uh, create the, the level of kind of, uh, schizophrenic, uh, interactions that we need to, to break free of this.

00:46:14.700 Ultimately, he's hoping that enough radical, you know, de-territorialization will allow you to basically have none of this.

00:46:21.980 Because we, as people who are on the right are, I think, ultimately looking for a territorialization.

00:46:29.560 We are looking for a grounding.

00:46:31.100 We are actually not looking to escape all control.

00:46:35.260 We are not looking, you know, while we may disagree with the current control society and its ends and maybe even its means, we're not looking for a complete liberation from our duties to each other.

00:46:47.400 And our hierarchies and the things that kind of make us human, I mean, land in, you know, Nick land is in, in many ways, talking about an acceleration of this process that leaves the human behind, uh, which is not.

00:46:59.820 The way in which Deleuze was hoping to liberate people, but is, I think probably the more realistic understanding of where this process takes us.

00:47:08.980 So as people who are not looking for actually the radical liberation of society, but actually the, the healthy regrounding of it, the, the healthy territorialization and things that, uh, could, could survive the kind of current onslaught.

00:47:23.620 Uh, what do we make of Deleuze's, uh, solutions and how, how could we think about them?

00:47:29.920 Yeah, that's a great, I mean, that's a great question.

00:47:32.980 Or, and I guess I would say we're all, we're all looking for territory, but I don't know if we're looking to be re-territorialized or at least not, not re-territorialized in the sense that we get kind of re-subsumed back into the, uh, you know, the grid or, or the, the mega machine.

00:47:54.300 Um, you know, and I know it's, I've, I've caught a bit of flack for this and granted, you know, nomad, the word itself just implies this very kind of transient, um, you know, people that like, you know, follows, uh, herds of, of, of buffalo or is, is, you know, uh, uh, constantly in, in, in, in motion.

00:48:15.580 Um, but you know, a lot of people nowadays talk about, um, digital nomadism.

00:48:21.540 Um, um, I think that the, the concept of the nomad, given the fact that we're in a digital, uh, era does not need to imply, um, like physical mobility.

00:48:36.100 Um, or being constantly in, in, in, in flux.

00:48:39.860 I think there is something, I know it sounds kind of like a paradox, but there is something slightly nomadic about, you know, digging your heels in somewhere.

00:48:52.080 And, and, and forming a, a community or, or a micropolity.

00:48:56.460 Um, I think that Deleuze would be, would be sympathetic to that.

00:49:00.260 And I guess I'd also just turn people back to that example of these, you know, these journeymen, um, uh, nomadic craftsmen that built the, the cathedral.

00:49:11.920 Cause like these were certainly, uh, traditionalists, you know, these were people that were building, um, building churches and, and, and cathedrals and, um, monuments to their very, uh, very traditional society.

00:49:27.580 So, um, I don't think that there's anything at odds with, uh, looking to the past or, um, maintaining a tradition that's, that's directly at odds.

00:49:41.920 With, with, with Deleuze's concept of, um, escape.

00:49:48.580 It doesn't have to be future oriented, I guess is what I'd say.

00:49:52.580 Interesting.

00:49:53.620 All right, guys, well, we're going to go ahead and transition, transition over to the questions of the people before we do, uh, last things, where can people find your excellent work?

00:50:02.380 Yeah, well, I should mention, I believe old glory club is planning to, um, uh, publish my speech on their sub stack.

00:50:09.840 Um, I don't know if they've done that quite yet, but if you, um, if people want to keep their eye on the old glory club sub stack, um, they should be publishing the talk.

00:50:18.540 It's called, uh, uh, uh, becoming the nomad war machine.

00:50:22.180 You guys can also just find me on, um, on YouTube.

00:50:25.620 If you just type in last things, um, I think I'm, um, uh, top result along with a handful of, uh, uh, Catholic, uh, YouTuber, you know, old Catholic videos.

00:50:37.440 So not, not too hard to find.

00:50:39.940 Excellent.

00:50:40.500 All right, guys, let's take a look here. 0.99

00:50:42.180 Tiny stupid demon says, I suspect a lot of modern churches would fit in with prisons, schools, hospitals, et cetera. 0.99

00:50:48.880 Yeah. 1.00

00:50:49.080 Unfortunately, with the massification of everything, including the mega church, uh, I think that you're right.

00:50:54.540 That in many ways, uh, sadly, even places of worship, uh, have adopted.

00:51:00.120 This is a, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm a Protestant, uh, but there, there is a little something to the, uh, you know, the, the way that, uh, you know, Catholic churches or others that have that specific structure where there's only going to be, uh, so many, you know, uh, institutions inside a parish or something that there's a, there's a particular way that those things get divided means that you don't perhaps have this accumulation of humans into these, these mega organizations in quite the same way.

00:51:30.120 Yeah, I think, I mean, I think you could probably find some churches that in church communities where you, you, you sense readily that these people are, are on a light of line of flight, or you can kind of sense that, that these people are captured.

00:51:43.860 I mean, one thing to mention quickly in response to that is, you know, one, one thing that Deleuze points out for knowing when you're on a line of flight is, um, is just, uh, a sense of love.

00:51:54.620 Like, and if people, uh, if you're, if you're involved with the church community or you're beginning to attend a particular church, I think, you know, check your own affects, check your own motives and attitudes and, and those of your fellow parishioners.

00:52:10.340 Um, and that, that could kind of help determine what sort of, uh, environment you're, uh, you're getting involved with.

00:52:17.000 Hello in the dark here says anything overly artificial isn't good for humans.

00:52:22.520 Even if we seek comfort of, or luxury, as much as people want to deny it, we are part of the ecosystem.

00:52:29.140 Uh, there is certainly a lot of truth to that.

00:52:31.200 There is a rhythm, uh, to people's lives that is tied to the land that is tied to the ecosystem.

00:52:37.020 Um, there, there is, uh, there's a reason that Spangler always said that the end of the civilization is always the return to the land.

00:52:44.500 People get exhausted with the artificial constructs, uh, that have, uh, pulled them away and pulled them deep into these sclerotic, uh, societal phases.

00:52:53.580 And they yearn to go back to something that is, uh, more, more in tune with the rhythm of the land.

00:52:58.240 Spago says, uh, what should be done about central banks financing the evil, corrupt central government without collecting taxes or borrowing from the, uh, real people?

00:53:11.480 Well, uh, this is one of the reasons that, uh, you know, a lot of people are big on Bitcoin, right?

00:53:16.400 Because it allows, uh, freedom from this mechanism.

00:53:20.080 But as long as you have mass scale production and consumption, you're going to have centralization, uh, and, and long-term planning inside of states, uh, which also necessitates, uh, central banks, right?

00:53:32.960 That's, that's, as long as we, we have our current setup, I don't see, uh, that ending, uh, it might have a natural end.

00:53:40.180 It might naturally implode on itself, but until there's a radical shift and maybe Bitcoin is part of that destabilization, but until there's something like that, uh, then I think you're going to probably see that.

00:53:50.080 Continue for a long time.

00:53:51.820 Yeah.

00:53:52.260 I'd only add to that, Oren, that like many people, many theory cells, let's say, consider, uh, cryptocurrency to be like the biggest sort of de-territorialization or, or potential de-territorialization, um, in, you know, that's, that's happened since we've entered the control society.

00:54:11.600 Uh, Nick Land has a paper on this called Crypto Current.

00:54:15.320 Um, you can find many, many people, um, spurging out about, uh, the implications of, uh, of Bitcoin for, uh, philosophy and, uh, um, this kind of stuff.

00:54:27.840 If you, if you just kick around YouTube for a while.

00:54:31.020 Yeah.

00:54:31.060 There's a video of him, like, uh, desperately trying to like squeeze into some kind of talk about Bitcoin, like why it establishes the Kantian, uh, understanding of Apple.

00:54:40.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's, it's, Bitcoin is a currency to you, to Nick Land, it's an entire, uh, like metaphysic.

00:54:48.800 Yeah.

00:54:48.900 Uh, let's see, glow in the dark, uh, says nature as the Greeks described, it was like, uh, outside of town, the wild, uh, uh, the wild grown, not complete, uh, not complete other entity, uh, most see it as today, removing yourself from nature too much will not have good results in mass society.

00:55:09.540 Uh, again, I would, I would largely agree with that, uh, kind of commented on that already, but yeah, I think that that's, there's, there's a lot of truth to that.

00:55:17.620 Uh, Robert Weinsfeld says, uh, fight club, uh, can I move it be, uh, incubated in the jujitsu community?

00:55:24.360 Uh, from my grappling experience, it's quite a right wing group.

00:55:27.220 Uh, Gordon Ryan equals Tyler, Tyler Durden.

00:55:30.840 Uh, yeah, there's always, you know, it's, it's funny.

00:55:32.940 There's always like this attempt for several guys at, uh, at the conferences, you know, like the old glory club conferences to like find a place where people can roll because so many guys are jujitsu guys.

00:55:44.140 Um, it is of course a great practice to get, to get into, I did jujitsu and judo for, for several years.

00:55:50.880 Um, it is a, it is just an excellent discipline.

00:55:53.740 It's good for you.

00:55:54.760 It's a great for confidence.

00:55:56.640 Uh, great.

00:55:57.440 And you're right that it is, there's a inherent right wing bias.

00:56:00.200 There's simply, uh, there's, there's only so long that you can continue to throw people, uh, you know, and choke them out and continue to be a leftoid.

00:56:07.660 There's a limiting factor there.

00:56:10.000 Yeah.

00:56:10.140 Every, every other guy I meet is, uh, is a BJJ guy, uh, in this space.

00:56:14.740 I would just add to that, that I think in some ways you get the virtual, the virtual analog for fight clubs is just like, you know, Twitter group chats where men are with men yelling at one another.

00:56:26.480 I don't know, man.

00:56:27.320 I feel like, uh, Twitter group chats are like, uh, the most feminine spaces, you know, like it's, it, they, there's, because there's no actual, uh, physical contact.

00:56:37.140 It's a lot of people complaining.

00:56:38.180 It depends on the group chat.

00:56:39.360 There are some.

00:56:39.840 Yeah.

00:56:40.220 Yeah.

00:56:40.680 That's true.

00:56:41.320 They can, they can get a little, uh, um, pouty, but yeah, the, the ad mixture matters a lot, you know, that, that can change it significantly.

00:56:50.480 Uh, Paladin YYZ says, uh, you can read about the Archons, watch the Star Trek episode on the Borg, or just smoke a ton of D&T.

00:57:00.040 The shock is not that these allegories all involve machine intelligence, but that their presence is unfolding as described.

00:57:06.280 Yeah.

00:57:06.920 Uh, Nick Land would call that hyperstition.

00:57:09.060 Um, and so, or, you know, the, did, did observations about, uh, the inevitable nature of humanity, uh, create these narratives or did these natures create a, uh, a future that humanity eventually, uh, brought into reality?

00:57:24.280 These are the questions that will leave you scratching your head, uh, or doing a lot of drugs.

00:57:31.360 All right, guys, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up.

00:57:33.920 Thank you so much for watching today, guys.

00:57:36.660 Of course, you should be checking out last things.

00:57:39.120 Excellent work.

00:57:39.940 Uh, he also had the movie festival.

00:57:41.660 I was a part of, if you didn't catch those, make sure to do so.

00:57:44.660 There's a lot of fun interviews there that I found very fascinating.

00:57:48.340 Of course, if it's your first time on this channel, make sure that you go ahead and subscribe, click the bell, turn on the notification.

00:57:54.260 So you can catch the streams when they go live.

00:57:56.520 If you'd like to go ahead and get these broadcasts as podcasts, you need to go ahead and subscribe to the or Macintyre show on your favorite podcast platform.

00:58:03.740 And when you do leave a rating or review, it really helps with the algorithm magic.

00:58:07.840 And of course, if you would like to pick up my book, the total state, you can go ahead and do that on Amazon.

00:58:13.360 It's also at Barnes and Noble's books a million.

00:58:15.340 You can probably order it through your favorite local bookstore if you'd like to support them as well.

00:58:19.320 Thank you so much for watching guys.

00:58:20.620 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

00:58:24.260 Thank you.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - June 19, 2024

Gilles Deleuze and Societies of Control ｜ Guest： Last Things ｜ 6⧸19⧸24

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