The Auron MacIntyre Show - February 21, 2023


Has Modernity Destroyed Marriage？ ｜ Guest： Alex Kaschuta ｜ 2⧸21⧸23

Topics
online dating changes social skills dependence
Hosted by
Auron MacIntyre
Guests
Alex Kaschuta
Mentioned
Bronze Age Alex Oren Mary Harrington Jordan Peterson Patrick Deneen Alice Kishuda Curtis Yarvin Adam Lanza Notre Dame Kierkegaard Spangler McIntyre Lomez Lomas
Why The Right Won't Fight ｜ Guest： Jesse Kelly ｜ 2⧸17⧸23 Solving the Conspiracy Theory Crisis ｜ 2⧸22⧸23

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 4 minutes

Words per minute

186.02

Word count

11,993

Sentence count

573

Harmful content

Misogyny

25

sentences flagged

Toxicity

13

sentences flagged

Hate speech

20

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Alice Kishuda is a podcaster and writer who has recently written an article that challenges the idea that men and women have to get along in order to be on the same page. In this episode, we talk about how technology and social engineering have made it harder for men to communicate with the other sex, and why this is a problem.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
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00:01:29.980 Hey everybody, how's it going?
00:01:33.900 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.
00:01:35.780 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you'll all really enjoy.
00:01:41.140 She is a podcaster and a writer.
00:01:43.700 Alice Kishuda, thank you for joining me.
00:01:45.960 Welcome for having me on.
00:01:47.380 Absolutely.
00:01:49.060 So I always love having you on.
00:01:51.700 And I thought we would get into a topic we haven't really touched on the last few times you've been on, which is something you've been writing about recently.
00:01:58.880 I really liked that you were kind of addressing a problem.
00:02:04.100 I think one of the most controversial opinions I have funny enough for people on the right is that men and women have to get along.
00:02:10.260 That seems to be something that seems to be something that is kind of shocking to a lot of people, something that maybe some people don't necessarily agree with.
00:02:18.340 And while I think there are massive problems with feminism, I do think that this is a problem that is one of coordination and technology and all kinds of stuff that you kind of touched on in your piece. 1.00
00:02:31.360 So I wanted to start with an insight that I think was a really good one, which is that a lot of the advancements through technology and social technology, social engineering that we have put a lot of time in, that a lot of men specifically put a lot of time and innovation and sweat and brainpower into, have in many ways made them obsolete and made it very difficult for men and women to kind of find a rhythm and kind of properly signal to each other.
00:03:00.800 Could you talk about that a little bit?
00:03:01.800 Could you talk about that a little bit?
00:03:02.800 Yeah, absolutely.
00:03:03.800 I mean, this whole piece comes a little bit from a frustration of mine because I spend my time obviously a lot on the dissident right and kind of, you know, even in manosphere circles.
00:03:12.800 And that's kind of a well-known sphere for a lot of listeners, my audience as well.
00:03:17.800 But I also have been spending time in the so-called rad femme circles. 0.84
00:03:21.800 And it's very interesting how much of a mirror image of the two that they, you know, you put them in opposition and the, you know, the ferocity and monstrosity of anecdotes and statistics.
00:03:32.800 And, I don't know, pretty much fear mongering about the other sex that you find in these circles is of the same caliber that you find even in the deepest, darkest MGTOW, you know, places that you can imagine.
00:03:45.800 You know, kind of a bit of a schizophrenic tone about what's even possible with the other sex. 0.99
00:03:52.800 And I thought, okay, you know, this seems like a topic that's on everybody's mind.
00:04:00.800 It's something that I've obviously considered myself quite a lot.
00:04:03.800 I mean, I feel like I've reached some form of personal equilibrium in my relationship with the opposite sex, being married and having children. 1.00
00:04:11.800 And a second one on the way, by the way, this is the first time I'm mentioning this, but yeah.
00:04:15.800 Oh, congratulations.
00:04:16.800 Thank you so much.
00:04:17.800 Yeah, in August.
00:04:19.800 So, yeah, I mean, things are going pretty well in this department for me.
00:04:24.800 So, I thought, you know, okay, I'm just going to write out my position, which is not necessarily rosy.
00:04:31.800 I mean, a lot of that article that I wrote is pretty much a kind of a, you know, darkish, black pillish type of situation.
00:04:38.800 Because it does describe a situation that, you know, we are kind of the last man and the last woman.
00:04:45.800 But what, you know, what is causal to this situation and where to point the finger and where to lay the blame, I think that's where we fail.
00:04:55.800 And I feel like people need to understand that we're in this together.
00:04:59.800 I mean, you know, there's a lot of talk about men being emasculated.
00:05:03.800 And I agree, I think men are being emasculated.
00:05:06.800 But, you know, the culprit isn't necessarily feminism or women as an entity, you know, coming in, you know, putting their foot down and emasculating men. 1.00
00:05:15.800 Women have been masculinized as well. 1.00
00:05:17.800 I mean, we've all kind of converged to this kind of androgynous unit of humanity that needs to perform in the industry and consumption modes and all of these.
00:05:26.800 Because this is what the circumstances require.
00:05:30.800 This is what you needed to do and what you could do and what you also couldn't do.
00:05:36.800 Like you described it very well.
00:05:38.800 A lot of the technologies that made life comfortable for us, you know, indoor plumbing, heating systems, electricity, running water, all sorts of things that you needed to spend quite a lot of time on back in the day.
00:05:52.800 And involved a lot of hard, you know, manual labor, lifting things, fighting off things, you know, fending, chopping, all sorts of things that required both skill and power are done by the market or the state now.
00:06:05.800 They've been taken off your hands.
00:06:07.800 The tasks that are left in the household and life in general are kind of the one-to-one tasks, you know, the caring tasks.
00:06:15.800 So washing up, you know, laundry, you know, it's done by the machine, but you still have to put the stuff in, take the stuff out, dry it, fold it, all sorts of little feminine type tasks. 0.98
00:06:26.800 And the reality is that in most households, if you don't actively decide as a man that you will fix, I don't know, what can you fix, I guess, the doors and do carpentry and things like that, which are quite skilled now.
00:06:42.800 Because there's a lot of complexity to these things, and you have to learn these skills.
00:06:46.800 They don't fall into your lab.
00:06:47.800 Your dad didn't teach you.
00:06:48.800 Most people of my generation weren't taught by their fathers directly of how to do things in the household.
00:06:53.800 So people usually just call, they call the carpenter, they call the guy to fix the TV.
00:06:58.800 You know, the cars, the cars are made out of, I don't know, IT modules now.
00:07:03.800 They're essentially, you know, are impossible to fix by someone who's not, I don't know, very highly skilled mechanics.
00:07:11.800 So I think we've kind of gotten into a little bit of a corner with technology and with the abundance that essentially, you know, you mentioned that men have created.
00:07:22.800 The men of ages past, not, you know, directly the men of now, but they're maintaining it.
00:07:26.800 So, you know, we're in this point.
00:07:29.800 And women as well. 0.99
00:07:30.800 I mean, women kind of have been left with the caring tasks of day to day. 1.00
00:07:34.800 But at the same time, they've also, for reasons, you know, you could say, okay, it's partly feminism, why are women in the workforce? 1.00
00:07:42.800 I mean, women in the workforce are also because of, you know, historical reasons. 0.96
00:07:45.800 I mean, wars, the possibility, even just the possibility of not having to, you know, fight for survival is a very easy thing to not only bring about the soft conditions of history where you can actually think about, oh, what should we be doing?
00:08:02.800 What should the relationship between the sexes be? 0.98
00:08:05.800 But also just, you know, to give people options.
00:08:07.800 I mean, if you want to do this, you can do this because you're not under the like iron rule of nature.
00:08:13.800 You're not under the insane schedule of agriculture.
00:08:16.800 You know, all of these pressures fell away and we could get, I don't know, creative in a way with what we want to do, what we should do.
00:08:24.800 And that's just, you know, fairly an organic process.
00:08:27.800 So, I mean, essentially what I, what I was reacting to with this article was this like growing sense of animosity, growing sense of feeling that, okay, we can't get together, you know, why, why should we even try?
00:08:40.800 And the reality that I know, you know, I was someone who was in a position where I was very disenchanted with the whole idea of marriage.
00:08:49.800 I mean, you know, raised by boomers and very, you know, conflict laden household. 0.61
00:08:53.800 And I just didn't understand why anyone would go through this, why put your children through this, you know, and I kind of had to have almost like a rediscovery of what it could mean and how good it could be.
00:09:08.800 It took me a while and I just don't want people to lock themselves out of this opportunity because they just load themselves with whatever, you know, divorce rape statistics or, I don't know, you know, the idea that, you know, if you get married, you're, I don't know, you're stuck in the longhouse and going to be emasculated until the day you die.
00:09:28.800 So I don't know, it's just, it just felt like there was a lot of, a lot of unnecessary blackpilling on the timeline.
00:09:38.720 So I thought, you know, maybe I'll, I'll just put my thoughts out there.
00:09:42.420 Yeah, it's something that I understand is, is very difficult for a lot of people.
00:09:46.020 Of course, many people in my generation are in exactly the position you're talking about.
00:09:50.040 I'm, I'm in now, I guess, what is the minority in that I came from a kind of a very Cleaver-esque household.
00:09:56.320 You know, my parents had a great relationship.
00:09:58.780 They were very, you know, caring to us.
00:10:00.960 It was always something that I wanted, you know, it's always something that seemed very positive to me when people looked around and said, this can't work anymore.
00:10:08.440 It doesn't work anymore.
00:10:09.440 I just never understood what they meant because I had kind of experienced it firsthand.
00:10:13.700 So I knew what it was supposed to look like, but at the same time, looking at the world around me, I can certainly understand why so many people didn't, you know, didn't know what it was supposed to look like.
00:10:23.020 How they can't even imagine someone like that even operating in the modern world.
00:10:27.480 And I think it's really important, you know, Mary Harrington also makes this point that feminism is an outgrowth of that technology, right?
00:10:34.960 It's a luxury item stacked on top of many other technological and social advances.
00:10:39.580 It's really the fact that you can even have the conversation about male and female roles is itself a very decadent thing, right?
00:10:47.060 It shows that your civilization has reached a point of security and safety where it can just generate its own problems and eat itself from the inside because you no longer are falling into, like you said,
00:11:00.040 those very clearly defined roles that no one needed to figure out or explore that came with just biological realities in a situation where you're fighting for survival.
00:11:11.340 Women don't kind of have the health care that allows them to decide, you know, all kinds of things and, you know, to enter the workforce. 1.00
00:11:19.140 And this is just not an option.
00:11:20.680 Someone had to make sure that the species continued and someone had to make sure that no one killed you in the process.
00:11:25.780 And so you didn't really have to figure all of this out.
00:11:28.320 But now, you know, way more negotiation.
00:11:31.180 And whenever we have negotiation, we end up having a lot more disarray and confusion, I think.
00:11:37.180 Yeah, I think that's the main thing.
00:11:39.820 You know, it's not just the relationships between men and women that were essentially liquefied by this.
00:11:44.360 You know, all of this is essentially the theme of the dissident, right?
00:11:48.120 I'd like the fact that a lot of a lot of pacts that we used to have with each other and with nature and which with, you know,
00:11:56.000 the hierarchies between people were dissolved by the simple fact that, you know, you didn't need to hustle for shelter and food.
00:12:03.520 And, you know, the just a sudden influx of abundance and the amenities of living in the modern world gave us a bit of leisure time
00:12:12.320 to consider all of these interesting things and spin off all sorts of ideologies from that, you know,
00:12:20.500 because the idea that, you know, men and women have equivalent strength.
00:12:26.280 I mean, just imagine, you know, historical times, you know, just positing that would just get you thrown into the loony bin
00:12:33.520 or whatever local dungeon, what have you, because it was clearly insane.
00:12:38.360 But the fact that we can even consider that means that we're so far removed from the facts of the bare facts of existence
00:12:45.060 and, you know, foraging and, you know, extracting, you know, sustenance from nature that, you know,
00:12:52.120 it's very hard to resuscitate those pressures.
00:12:56.300 I think that's the problem.
00:12:57.920 I think that's kind of the black pill here as well.
00:13:00.220 And you mentioned negotiations.
00:13:01.360 I mean, negotiations is what we have because we're in a different place.
00:13:07.140 And, you know, I know people fantasize about, I don't know, a reintroduction of the patriarchy
00:13:12.240 and in some form of another.
00:13:14.060 I mean, the patriarchy was a social technology that worked, you know, perfectly for certain conditions,
00:13:19.660 certain pressures, a certain, you know, you need a certain type, you know, you need protection,
00:13:25.340 you need the exertion of force.
00:13:27.020 All of that stuff worked within that set of pressures.
00:13:30.780 Those pressures are off now.
00:13:32.380 They might return.
00:13:33.220 I'm not saying, you know, that's another layer of black pill. 0.99
00:13:36.120 They might return quite, you know, quite sooner or maybe in a thousand years.
00:13:38.860 Who knows?
00:13:39.700 But they probably will return with a cycle of and then things will, you know, even themselves out quite quickly.
00:13:45.120 But for now, with the parameters that we have, we are in a point of negotiation.
00:13:52.180 And I can also understand if people really, you know, MGTOW level people who really are on the fringes at the end of their tether, 0.64
00:14:00.000 you know, the most disillusioned radfems and the most, you know, upset MGTOWs that they want to completely opt out.
00:14:06.900 But I don't think that should be a mainstream thing because I also believe one thing about ideology, you know,
00:14:14.060 by swimming in the sea of ideologies in the last few years is that the ideologies that I tend to believe in are the ones that bear fruit for the individual and for the communities around them.
00:14:26.600 Like literally in terms of having children, if your ideology is barren, it doesn't produce airs except for, I don't know, some interesting blog posts,
00:14:36.660 then I might not be as interested, even if the blog posts are extremely interesting.
00:14:41.740 If they, if it leads to, I don't know, desolation and despair in the lives of individuals and, you know, mental illness.
00:14:50.460 Also, maybe even if it's really interesting, you know, it's, it's not, you know, so you will know them by their fruits.
00:14:57.620 And I think, you know, maybe it's very like pragmatist type view on, on, on how to apply them.
00:15:03.760 But, you know, I, I've, I've found ideology to be very fruitful for me.
00:15:09.060 In some ways it saved me and I think it can save people.
00:15:12.860 Um, but it's, uh, you know, one has to be careful with, with what you let into your, into your heart and mind, uh, because the internet's got everything, uh, and it's quite, uh, it's quite powerful.
00:15:26.020 Yeah, that's, that's exactly right.
00:15:28.200 There's, you know, ideology is, uh, I hate saying there's, you shouldn't have ideologies because I think that's just kind of ignorant about how people work.
00:15:35.720 But I think that your belief system, uh, should be grounded very, in a very particular need and a very, like you said, it should bear fruit.
00:15:45.740 It should show a promise.
00:15:47.900 It should better you yourself, your community.
00:15:49.960 It should bring you to a better place.
00:15:52.360 And if it's not doing that, then it doesn't matter if it gives you some kind of, I don't know, uh, some kind of maze for your mind to run around in until you get tired and stop worrying about this.
00:16:03.700 It doesn't actually solve your problem.
00:16:05.900 And so I think those things, I think so many of these things are just ways for different factions to kind of break off and believe the things they want to believe or invest in the things they want to invest in.
00:16:16.440 And it just kind of gives them a narrative about why they should be able to kind of check out, kind of opt out rather than providing anything that is actually going to solve your problem is, is ever going to bring any kind of positive change into your life.
00:16:30.720 So I think it's very true that these things need to, these, these things need to be social technologies that bring you closer to a better way of life.
00:16:39.460 And, you know, something that betters the community, those around you, rather than just something that lets you escape the kind of the, the, like the black pills that keep falling into, you know, different aspects of human relationships.
00:16:51.580 Oh, sorry.
00:16:52.300 Go ahead.
00:16:52.520 No, no, I'm just saying, you know, I just want to say that the black pill is very enticing also because it absolves you of responsibility, you know, which in a way is kind of the, the opposite of, of, of masculinity.
00:17:04.600 It's the idea that, you know, things are so, so bad, you know, the, the world is on fire.
00:17:10.820 It's the end of days. 1.00
00:17:12.120 Women are demons. 1.00
00:17:13.220 Men are, you know, pigs at best. 1.00
00:17:15.420 And it's time to, it's time to, you know, throw in the towel and just sit on the sidelines and, you know, do a, do a live stream vivisection of, of, of all the ills of the world. 0.99
00:17:24.680 And, you know, what, what's, what's the responsibility on you?
00:17:28.260 Well, you know, can't really do anything, you know, have you seen, have you seen these, these people?
00:17:33.080 So, yeah, I think that's, you know, it's, it's, it's appealing.
00:17:37.520 And I feel like they're not, not only this, but there are a lot of incentives baked into just the framing of the internet and how social media works.
00:17:45.380 Because, you know, we're talking about ideology online.
00:17:47.400 This is not, you know, people picking up a book at the library and falling into some, some deep crevice.
00:17:51.660 There are specific incentives built into how leaders of ideologies organize people, how they consolidate their positions online, how they try to cleave off other people, how, you know, like Gio Panicetti described us as like the, the shark womb of, of, you know, the dissident, right?
00:18:10.440 Where you have to have someone who's extremely aggressive and culling people and builds, builds kind of a fearsome reputation from that.
00:18:18.360 So there are all sorts of little mechanisms built into this.
00:18:22.860 So, you know, it's, yeah, there, there are things here that are not just a pure ideology.
00:18:27.800 It's not just about, you know, this is our 10 point manifesto and the people who like it are ours and the people who don't aren't, there's, you know, all sorts of layers on it.
00:18:37.020 And it's not necessarily good for the ideology itself.
00:18:40.260 It's just the way the internet works and it works the same if you're in a, I don't know, pro anorexia community or, you know, you're into mommy bloggers who really like sleep training and they all kind of have these, these dynamics of, of, you know, building clout, sustaining clout, consolidating groups, you know, cleaving off dissenters, all sorts of type of stuff.
00:18:59.280 So, um, I think these things, uh, these things are just became apparent to me by being in these communities in these years.
00:19:05.200 And I feel like this is a really interesting area of study just to see, okay, there is a certain life cycle to these, to these things, you know, the independent of the truth claims of the ideologies themselves.
00:19:18.080 Um, yeah.
00:19:18.720 And I mean, this is, you know, interesting to me and I don't know, I just feel like a, a baby anthropologist of case study of one, just looking at, you know, what's, what's kind of happened through my life.
00:19:29.280 And seeing kind of what, what people are doing and how it's working for them.
00:19:34.900 Do you, do you find that kind of exhausting though?
00:19:37.000 I don't know.
00:19:37.560 It's one of those things I like, I know it's happening.
00:19:40.160 I'm aware that it's happening.
00:19:41.520 I know that technically I'm in the sphere and so I'm part of it in some way, but I just, I don't think about it a lot.
00:19:48.360 And then I like see someone and they just clearly walked by and kicked someone's sandcastle because it's time for them to, you know, stir the pot or, you know, it's, it's to defend their ground.
00:19:58.360 Or here's a new target I can leech, you know, cred off of or something.
00:20:03.120 And I'm just like, why?
00:20:05.400 Like, I, I don't know.
00:20:06.380 I, I understand why it's not that I don't understand why, but I don't know.
00:20:09.340 I, I just, I mean, I find it so boring.
00:20:11.300 I know it's, I know it's good TV.
00:20:13.220 I know it gets people excited.
00:20:14.960 I know it grows followers and stuff, but I don't know.
00:20:18.560 It's just, again, I, I get it.
00:20:21.300 I understand.
00:20:22.060 But it's, I, it just, the minute I see it, I'm immediately exhausted and want to move on to something else.
00:20:26.540 Yeah, I mean, it is a bit, you know, it is repetitive because, you know, at first when I was like on social media, on Twitter and stuff, I was really excited about the beefs.
00:20:36.140 I would kind of adjacently, you know, come in and say, say my piece about this or that person and stuff.
00:20:40.800 And then obviously the beefs kind of pulled me in or they were about me at one point.
00:20:43.920 And I was like, whoa, I don't, don't necessarily want to, you know, make this bigger than it is.
00:20:50.080 And, and now I see them, you know, sometimes I admit I lurk and I look at the beefs, but the idea of, of starting, starting something like that myself, it's just, it's, I mean, who has the bandwidth?
00:21:03.240 Because it pulls you into this, like, fight or flight thing when you're really in the middle of something like that.
00:21:07.980 Because you, you know, that, you know, thousands of people are watching, they're, they're waiting for you to say a really cool, smart thing to destroy whoever is trying to, you know, usually of, you know, narcissism is small differences type stuff.
00:21:20.820 You know, we're all, we all believe in the 10 point plan, but, you know, they have an addendum to 0.9 and then I say, no, no, no, that should be under 0.7 and then all hell breaks loose because, you know, this is, this is the most important thing ever.
00:21:32.860 So, yeah, I mean, this is, yeah, an interesting thing, but it is important because these circles are relatively influential.
00:21:41.940 I mean, how influential, I think time will tell.
00:21:45.440 I think it seems like some, some important people are listening, how much that trickles into what they're actually going to do.
00:21:52.320 I don't know, but yeah, I mean, in terms of cultural clout for the size of the group, yeah, I mean, definitely a very hefty type of endeavor.
00:22:01.180 I understand why people take it seriously and, and, you know, go, go to the mat for whatever sub, sub point of their manifesto they want to argue about today.
00:22:11.940 Yeah, it is weird how influential it can be, but, but, but here we are.
00:22:18.340 So I want to get into some more stuff.
00:22:20.760 I want to talk about, okay, so if this is a problem of technology, if it's something now that we have to navigate, what's the best way to navigate it?
00:22:29.500 How do we meet people?
00:22:30.680 How do we look at former relationships?
00:22:32.560 What's the kind of stuff to look at?
00:22:33.980 But before we do that, guys, we do need to go ahead and hear from our sponsor real quick.
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00:24:33.420 All right, guys.
00:24:34.360 So going back to the issue of meeting people, I think this is probably the biggest thing for so many right now is, you know, you're, you have remote work or you have a remote school after all the COVID stuff.
00:24:48.920 You don't have places like church.
00:24:51.280 You don't have these, these kind of normal meeting houses where people would run into each other in the culture and find somebody who's got similar values, similar tastes compatible.
00:25:01.720 You've got all these dating apps, but I think I saw you say something that I thought was very funny that I've been turning around my brain for a while.
00:25:08.740 You said maybe using the same thing that mediates your ordering of a pizza to find a mate is, is maybe not the best thing, which, which I think is a pretty good piece of insight.
00:25:19.660 How should we view this process now that, that things have changed?
00:25:24.580 Where should people turn to when it comes to finding someone?
00:25:29.100 Yeah.
00:25:29.620 I mean, this is, you know, a core question and I think, you know, the, the, the answer is not as direct as it used to be just because, okay, we need to, we need to negotiate with the situation a little bit, you know, for someone who made that, that joke to actually have met my husband on OKCupid is quite ironic, but that was just, you know, it was the beginning stages of, of online dating.
00:25:53.440 Things are still, you know, still the wild west. And, um, I can obviously say I'm not, I wouldn't necessarily discount trying to search for people on apps, especially apps that are maybe more branded towards long-term commitment.
00:26:06.460 There are some that are a bit more like, okay, this is a more serious app. Um, on Tinder, maybe not necessarily the best or Grindr as well. Don't go on there, but there are, there are directions that you could go, um, that I think are useful.
00:26:19.620 And I also gave this, uh, this advice to people who are trying to, you know, go the app route because it is the default now. So I, you know, I, I wouldn't want to exclude all your chances there, you know, obviously optimize your photographs to make you look nice. Don't edit them to, you know, make you look too nice so that people are completely appalled when they see you.
00:26:36.740 But, um, the idea and it is, you know, the bio is also important. Women do read the bio, uh, and, uh, it should be something very, um, I don't know, not just, just kind of lay out a vision for what you'd like your life to be and say, okay, you know, this is, this is my, my tenure plan.
00:26:55.280 And this is what, you know, this is, if this is appealing to you, just, just let me know. And, you know, if you're interested in something more serious, obviously. And I think that's what, that's what most people are interested in now. Um, then I think, you know, obviously church people, a lot of people say church. I mean, this is a nuanced thing. I mean, participating in church, you should probably do that for other reasons. Um, there's also the problem that if you just show up at the church and try to, you know, uh, pick up women at the church, uh, you know, the church elders. Yeah.
00:27:23.960 And other people at the church might be a little bit like put off by you and maybe the girls as well. So, um, I don't know, into trying as best as you can to integrate in the community, um, honestly, and with, uh, with openness to the community itself, not just what you can gain from it in terms of whatever networking or, or, or relationships. Um, I mean, that's a good in itself, uh, and, you know, it can have collateral benefits. Um, and there are, you know, all sorts of groups where people still meet in person.
00:27:53.380 I mean, I remember when I was in the UK, I used to go to all sorts of meetups, you know, you know, people who are, um, interested, I mean, through the meetup app, I know this is again, a very, a very app, uh, um, focused way of, of meeting people, but you know, you have, I don't know, board games, meetups, meetups about, I don't know, some area of interest.
00:28:13.160 Uh, I went to like, um, uh, I don't know, a biology microscopics class there and was filled with interesting people. So, I mean, if you're kind of an urban area, I'm sure they're like a lot. Um, you can also meet people through, uh, meetups that are geared towards some area of work that you're interested in. I used to work in startups.
00:28:31.160 So I would go to all these, you know, startup focused meetups or you'd, you know, have a beer with people in whatever industry and talk to them, sell them something. I mean, that was my job, but whatever, you know, you could, you could do whatever you, uh, you needed to do there.
00:28:43.920 So, um, I think a lot of the problems here, not necessarily that people don't exist out in the world and they don't do stuff. It's that, um, there's a certain timidity that we've, um, we've grown because of our interaction with technology.
00:29:00.020 I mean, even I realized, I mean, I used to work in sales. I used to be able to pick up the phone and just like blabber onto someone and, you know, pitch to them, be very loose with my, uh, uh, my, uh, voice and, you know, explaining things to people.
00:29:14.260 And now after, maybe after COVID and just, you know, being in, in the internet for a few years, um, I feel like a lot of those skills are, are fading and I was naturally an extrovert.
00:29:25.060 So I can imagine that people who are already kind of on the introvert side are losing these skills at an even faster rate or, you know, never building them, never giving themselves a chance to do that.
00:29:35.320 And, um, I would urge people to have maybe just a smidge and more courage in how they interact because a lot of times the people, um, at the party, you know, hanging around there, they just want someone to come up to them and talk to them.
00:29:48.180 You know, everyone's waiting for the other person to make the first move.
00:29:51.860 Um, and it is important obviously to do this tactfully with social skills.
00:29:56.820 There are ways to do this.
00:29:58.100 You know, you, the internet is full of, you know, charm school type content.
00:30:02.200 It's important, you know, to not be super creepy at first interaction and, you know, to kind of know how to comport yourself with other people.
00:30:10.800 Um, but that also comes with practice.
00:30:12.720 So I guess just, you know, maybe 5% more, um, courage to make the first move, uh, could pay a lot of dividends because a lot of people just don't have that 5% in them.
00:30:23.380 And if you were the person who, who does, you know, it, you know, it might have a good returns.
00:30:28.480 I mean, like I said, there's no silver bullet on this.
00:30:30.900 I don't think there is like a, you know, guys, I know the place, you know, there's a, there's a basement down on X street and there's all the trad wives are there. 0.99
00:30:39.040 That doesn't happen anymore.
00:30:41.220 You kind of have to become a bit more, um, resourceful and, you know, find, find your trad wife where you can, where you can, I guess. 0.86
00:30:49.480 Yeah.
00:30:49.920 It's a complicated kind of mixture of issues there because, uh, in one sense, you're exactly right.
00:30:55.960 That so many people now are, are sitting on the emotional couch.
00:30:59.980 You know, you're, you're, if you sit on the couch all day, you're going to get fat.
00:31:02.620 You're going to get out of shape.
00:31:03.400 You're not going to be able to do important things and if you're sitting home alone working or you don't have some kind of thing that forces you to go out and regularly interact with people, you're either not going to build or you're slowly going to atrophy those skills.
00:31:18.700 And you, there's really just no substitute for reps, uh, in anything.
00:31:23.640 Uh, and it's particularly true when it comes to socialization.
00:31:27.100 I was not a particular, you know, I shocked everyone here, but I was not a particularly smooth operator, uh, when I was younger.
00:31:33.400 I was not a particularly emotionally adept guy, but you know, over time you put yourself in enough social situations, you take some lumps, you you're willing to get hurt.
00:31:42.880 Cause you will. And, and you kind of figure things out and there are still, you know, I I'm in a weird place cause I met my, my late wife in church.
00:31:51.920 And then when, you know, came back out and there, there were, or, you know, at that time there was no, you know, there's no online dating apps.
00:32:00.000 There's none of that stuff. Uh, there, there's no meeting people online.
00:32:03.900 You had to do it IRL. And then when I was ready to, to date again and, you know, found my current wife also at, you know, at church through friends there.
00:32:15.700 So luckily I got to skip all of the, the electronic dating stuff, even though it was now like a more or less a prerequisite.
00:32:22.320 So, so luckily I kind of got the bypass that in either situation, but it, it really does.
00:32:29.120 You have to put yourself in those situations. You have to be willing to just constantly go out.
00:32:34.240 The difference between you and the other guy is you're the one making the effort to constantly be in those scenarios.
00:32:40.660 But there is also this really, to be fair to guys out there, a very difficult situation in that there's very hostile when it comes to approaches.
00:32:50.220 Yes. Most women do want you to, to make the move. They want you to have the confidence. 1.00
00:32:55.080 They want you to initiate the conversation again, like you said, in a non-creepy, you know, and understanding the social signals type of way.
00:33:02.620 But the problem is then you also have, you know, just really predatory behavior.
00:33:07.420 You know, everyone saw the, uh, the, the tick tock with the girl, uh, you know, trying, trying to trap guys at the gym.
00:33:14.640 There's all of a sudden this explosion of women. Oh, guys have eyeballs in a gym. 1.00
00:33:19.220 And then, you know, I can't believe they're looking in my general direction at any point.
00:33:23.160 It's like, actually, that's kind of a necessity for human beings to continue to exist, that they'll look at each other, you know, um, that, that men will look at women and women will look at men.
00:33:32.640 So you don't actually want to just punish that behavior at all times.
00:33:35.900 And so there is this set of, of, of kind of punishing signals sent to men.
00:33:40.620 Don't ever put yourself in the scenario because you could, you know, suddenly end up, you know, internet famous and lose your job because you just tried to talk to some girl at the gym.
00:33:50.260 Um, you have to, you have to get much, much better, unfortunately, reading a room.
00:33:54.500 And that's not fair to guys.
00:33:56.400 That's not fair to have that expectation of you have to make the move and you have to be able to figure out if this woman's going to suddenly like blast you on social media. 1.00
00:34:03.480 But also there just isn't another option at the moment.
00:34:06.620 So, so, uh, not particularly helpful, but the only answer to that is, you know, you got to figure it out.
00:34:12.040 Yeah.
00:34:12.520 And this is, you know, this is also kind of a hard to, to stomach idea for anyone.
00:34:18.900 Um, but you know, if you're on the right, the concept of fairness is already a little bit suspect.
00:34:24.900 I mean, men, if we accept that men and women are different and if we consider that, you know, the proportion of men who historically haven't had a chance to, to, you know, propagate their, their seed, even without feminism, even under the strictest and most iron patriarchy, um, you'll see, I mean, life is, is not fair.
00:34:44.420 There's a tragic component in life that we've been, uh, conditioned to, to, to not, um, accept because, you know, a lot of things who, you know, if, if your pizza is cold, you send it back, you know, if, if the water is not running, you call the guy who, who makes it run, you know, a lot of things are, are solvable, but the inherent issues of, of the difference between men and women, um, are not.
00:35:06.860 And obviously, you know, people say, oh, you know, women have it very easy. 1.00
00:35:09.940 They, there are certain things, you know, spend some time in, in, in Radfem Twitter and you'll see, at least they complain about a lot of, a lot of similar issues of unfairness and, and inequality and, you know, being targeted by disproportionate amounts of violence and all sorts of things.
00:35:25.800 And, um, it's, you know, there is, there is a certain tragic component to life, um, and not everyone will get it to the same degree as, um, as others.
00:35:38.360 And, um, I mean, I've been, I've been interested in kind of like internet ideologies recently, and I've been doing a lot of reading on antinatalism.
00:35:47.080 Essentially, antinatalism is the fringe most position of this lack of acceptance of the tragic dimension of life, you know, or it's, you know, it's seeing the tragic dimension of life and saying no to life, you know, and being so appalled by the fact of the unfairness, of the cruelty, of the pain of life.
00:36:04.920 And the fact that, you know, it is a struggle, there is pain inherent in life, um, that you just want to annihilate all of existence, you know, um, uh, you know, Adam Lanza was, you know, very much tied into this ideology, kind of the philosophical end of it.
00:36:21.080 Um, and he said no to life in a very, you know, very, uh, clear and painful and, and, and direct way.
00:36:27.980 And he took a lot of people with him.
00:36:29.680 So, um, you know, there is, there is a cost to this.
00:36:34.540 There's a cost to life.
00:36:36.060 Um, you know, before we, uh, we started recording, I, I remember just, I ran into the, you know, the quote by, by Kierkegaard about, you know, if you'll marry, you'll regret it.
00:36:45.580 If you kill yourself, you'll regret it.
00:36:47.500 If you don't kill yourself, you'll regret it. 0.88
00:36:48.740 You know, this, you know, this is the essence of philosophy.
00:36:51.140 Um, you know, I feel like, you know, this is, this is the essence of life.
00:36:54.720 There's a lot of trade-offs.
00:36:55.860 There's a lot of pain and a lot of, um, fighting through things that, uh, seem very lonely at times.
00:37:02.700 It seems that you're the only person or that you're in an excluded minority and that you are having the hardest time of all.
00:37:11.120 Um, but just remember that this is, this is baked into the, the pie for everyone.
00:37:16.060 You know, maybe some people have better seasons.
00:37:17.980 Maybe they have, they have a, uh, an easier time on things you find difficult.
00:37:22.000 Uh, but everyone's carrying their own burden.
00:37:25.000 And, um, yeah, I mean, you know, I don't know if this is any consolation to anyone,
00:37:31.060 but things are not supposed to be easy.
00:37:34.220 Anything that's worth getting is, is, is complicated and hard.
00:37:38.280 Um, even if it seems easy for some, especially with social media, social media is a hall of mirrors, people.
00:37:44.100 It's, it's not what it seems, you know, people, um, show themselves in their best light and it's not something you should compare yourself to.
00:37:52.400 Anyway, until I fall into more like, uh, you know, a Vogue type platitudes and stuff like that to stop me and we can move on to something more productive.
00:38:01.060 No, I think it's really true though.
00:38:02.880 I mean, people, again, as you, you have this, you know, this abstraction, right?
00:38:08.820 This, you're, you're so completely removed from reality.
00:38:11.980 You so rarely get to have genuine interactions, especially, unfortunately for many people with the opposite sex, that it's really easy to forget.
00:38:20.440 You know, we all tell ourselves, oh, I know that online's not real.
00:38:23.740 I know that the internet's not real.
00:38:25.300 I understand that it's all blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:38:27.060 But that's not how they live their lives, right?
00:38:29.340 That's not how they actually act.
00:38:30.620 That's how they adjust their expectations.
00:38:32.180 Whether we like it or not, we are constantly shaped by the things we consume.
00:38:36.940 We can tell ourselves that we don't believe TV.
00:38:39.280 We can tell, we don't tell ourselves that we don't really absorb what we're seeing online or, or what people are telling us online.
00:38:46.340 But at the end of the day, we do because we're human and, and that's just how humans work.
00:38:51.440 And so I think it's a little bit of, I think it's a little bit of cope for people to just be like, oh, well, that doesn't really, it's like, no, it really does affect you.
00:38:59.080 And you have to, unless you do put yourself in real situations, unless you actively take the steps to kind of rip yourself out of that cocoon and put yourself in the real world where you'll get bumped and bruised and hurt and, you know, and, you know, you struggle against things, then you, you will just kind of believe the things that are constantly put in front of you.
00:39:18.860 And it's one of the things I love about, you know, Spangler, yeah, the, the famous quote, you know, optimism is cowardice, you know, it's, it's like, look, but I mean, again, people hate this, but it's so true.
00:39:31.200 Like, life is hard.
00:39:34.520 Congratulations.
00:39:35.740 You too have learned this, right?
00:39:37.640 Like, you know, and, and it's, and it's not to discount the things you're going through.
00:39:42.500 Your life may legitimately be difficult, but it's, but the answer is not to just sit there and like you said,
00:39:48.180 dig in either on the Radfim side or on the, on the MGTOW side and say, well, it's all just the opposite side. 0.75
00:39:54.840 It's like, yes, absolutely.
00:39:56.120 There are things, again, there are serious problems, serious institutional problems, serious problems of approach.
00:40:03.300 There are things that both men and women are told that are absolute lies that they completely internalize and it makes things absolutely toxic.
00:40:09.620 And you can blame all those things every single day.
00:40:12.620 But for you, you still have to change things.
00:40:15.220 It's like the, you know, the Jordan Peterson thing.
00:40:17.960 Like just clean up your room is a terrible piece of advice collectively.
00:40:22.820 It doesn't solve problems.
00:40:24.660 It doesn't lead your, your society to collectively solving issues and navigating issues, but it's really good advice personally, because it's the thing you can most directly do to change what's going on in your life.
00:40:37.460 And so it's not a great thing to just blurt out anyone going through something difficult, but at the end of the day, it is the first step to any kind of change that's going to make a difference in your life.
00:40:45.480 And relationships are no different.
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00:41:16.860 Yeah, I don't want to also not discount, you know, the insights coming out of the so-called manosphere and, you know, even the radfemmes sometimes have a point.
00:41:28.640 And especially because, you know, the manosphere brought a lot of stuff that was culturally taboo.
00:41:34.940 I mean, there's, you know, there's this feeling, you know, the women are wonderful effect. 1.00
00:41:38.480 And, you know, this is kind of an illusion that culture kind of wants to maintain, you know, that, you know, everyone has that feeling about their own mom. 0.99
00:41:46.600 You know, you don't want to be, you don't want to be an asshole, essentially. 0.98
00:41:49.140 That's kind of what happens a lot of times in relation to making broad statements, generalizations about women. 0.98
00:41:55.900 The fact that the manosphere made generalizations about women and they were correct a lot of times does give them some power and some leverage.
00:42:04.000 And I feel like, you know, some cultural cachet, that's well-deserved.
00:42:07.120 But at the same time, like I said, you know, there is a, there are intrinsic mechanisms in how information is propagated online, how things get viral, how people find them, find out about them, how you become a personality online that are not necessarily good for finding out the truth, for crystallizing what is actually there.
00:42:28.620 But for hard, hardening factions around certain, you know, coordinating ideas, you know, which in real life is good, you know, it makes a nation, it makes a tribe, it makes a family, it makes religion.
00:42:42.180 But online, you know, the stakes are low and the only direction that things can take is a ratchet.
00:42:49.180 It's always like more and more and more and then cleaving off the naysayers and push it, push it, push it.
00:42:55.140 And then you just get to positions that are just like a bit, you know, it's just, you know, who, who is your audience here?
00:43:01.860 You know, there's like 10 guys around you who are that hard line that they, you know, want, I don't know, the total female annihilation or whatever, you know, is the newest click on the ratchet. 0.99
00:43:11.520 So anyway, it's, like I said, good insights, bad incentives in the places where these insights are found and where they grow and where they propagate.
00:43:24.820 So speaking of good insights, I don't know if you caught some of the current drama, but Lomez had an article in First Things, I don't know if you saw that on The Longhouse.
00:43:37.780 Mm-hmm.
00:44:07.780 There just seemed to be a real reaction to the fact that anyone would broach the topic of a culture that might be too feminized, that might be too feminine.
00:44:17.660 All of a sudden just sent all these guys into kind of a tizzy and it's really disappointing because some of these people are people I respect, but just their, their knee-jerk reaction to dismissing and, and, and just, you know, defaming some piece that, you know, characterizing a way that just, I don't think was in any way accurate.
00:44:37.720 What do you think about this, this reaction of people who are kind of supposed to be leading some section of the right, but just immediately recoil at the suggestion that like men might need spaces where they can kind of have, you know, male leadership and, you know, have the ability to exercise kind of their natural proclivities as men.
00:44:56.960 Yeah.
00:44:57.240 Yeah, I think in that case, it did seem a little bit like a, you know, guilt by association type situation because I think everyone knows that the, the Longhouse meme comes from Bronze Age mindsets, associated Bronze Age pervert.
00:45:10.300 You know, you know, maybe some preexisting negative associations with the larger Bronze Age pervert phenomenon is what they were reacting to.
00:45:18.300 And the fact that I think maybe it was jarring for a lot of people, because first things is, I mean, as far as I know, it's a Christian magazine, it's got.
00:45:25.120 Yeah, it's a Catholic magazine, I believe.
00:45:26.400 Yeah, Catholic magazine, obviously, you know, the, the Integralist would probably bristle at the fact that, you know, some anonymous person who's, you know, maybe interesting, but they probably follow him, but he's from a different section.
00:45:38.600 You know, there's, you know, there's, you know, there's a cordon sanitaire around this, this section, and that they're now being pulled into the, into the mainstream, the mainstream of Catholicism, Integralism, whatever, and that they're given a, given a platform there in, in, you know, the, the, the sacred center of, of, you know, a place where, yeah, where they usually publish.
00:46:02.680 And I think there is obviously a tension between, I don't think necessarily what, what Lomas wrote in that particular article, though, you know, obviously the longhouse is Babs meme.
00:46:12.440 But between, you know, Vita, pagan vitalism, I mean, I don't know exactly how pagan it is, but, you know, vitalism, Nietzschean vitalism, and the Christian part of the post-liberal right.
00:46:23.160 I mean, this is pre-existing tension, it's been there since the beginning.
00:46:26.720 Now the battles are being fought a little bit more, and I think this is just one of the, kind of the spin-off battles, okay?
00:46:33.260 This is our turf, you know, why is the Catholic magazine publishing this, you know, associate of the, of the pagan vitalists, has nothing to do with Catholicism.
00:46:44.480 And it, I mean, as far as I understand, Bab does reject Christianity as any sort of, he, he, he's not anti-Christian, he accepts Christians, he respects Christianity in some ways,
00:46:54.820 but as a political solution, which most of these Catholic-associated people would, would think, okay, Christianity comes first, he rejects that completely,
00:47:03.900 and, you know, he believes that that's going to open the doors to, you know, third world universalist mayhem, and fair, fair criticism.
00:47:13.160 I mean, you could be Christian and also accept that that is probably what's going to happen, and, you know, it's kind of like the, the fact with integralism.
00:47:21.360 I mean, you can be Catholic and, you know, be kind of interested in the idea of integralism, when you contrast that with the actual composition of the church,
00:47:27.880 and, you know, especially with the things that came out recently, I don't know exactly what the book was called,
00:47:32.020 but there's kind of a tell-all type situation about the Lavender Mafia.
00:47:35.880 I mean, no offense, but they're pretty much all homosexuals, especially in the higher echelons, and, you know, what that trickles down into, 1.00
00:47:44.020 and how abuse was covered up, and all sorts of just absolutely vile things, 0.98
00:47:49.060 and the idea that we're just going to organize our state around this cabal of degenerates.
00:47:57.080 Yeah, I don't know.
00:47:58.200 I don't necessarily think that's a great, whatever, what's it called, shelling point for civilization.
00:48:04.740 So, yeah, I mean, I think that's kind of what happened there.
00:48:08.120 To be honest, I kind of read the article diagonally, but I understand, I feel like I understand the meme,
00:48:12.380 and I feel like, I think it was a really good descriptor of a word that is commonly used, and it's out there,
00:48:19.560 and people are using it, and people want to understand what it is, and I think it's a useful concept as well.
00:48:25.060 I mean, do I agree?
00:48:26.780 I think the problem when you have something like that, oh, the longhouse, you know, matriarchal societies, 1.00
00:48:31.300 gynocentrism, it tends to, like any meme, it tends to, when at the top where it's sophisticated and people understand it,
00:48:41.100 it's okay, but it trickles down to the midwits and people who kind of tangentially understand it,
00:48:46.320 and essentially they, you know, think that women rule the world, 0.81
00:48:48.900 and they're both, you know, hyper-agentic people who, you know, just pull the strings in the background of society,
00:48:55.720 but also completely incompetent, and, you know, barely know how to, you know, 0.57
00:48:59.680 put their pants on in the morning, and you kind of have to hold that strange contrast in your mind,
00:49:05.420 but yeah, I think very useful meme, you know, it's kind of like no enemies to the right,
00:49:10.040 you know, it's really nice and sophisticated at the top, when it trickles down to the grunts of the movement,
00:49:15.900 it can get all sorts of strange, so yeah, I mean, that's kind of my two cents on this.
00:49:23.020 Yeah, it's, I don't know, it's weird, because you're right, like there are very, you know,
00:49:27.400 you see this with like the friend-enemy distinction all the time, it's a pretty relatively deep piece of thought
00:49:34.480 that suddenly just comes to like my team good, their team bad, which isn't wrong,
00:49:39.680 but it's the, there's a lot more to it, and when these things trickle down,
00:49:44.420 people do get confused about the more they do just become blunt instruments,
00:49:49.120 but I don't, you can't avoid that, right, like that, that's how it works,
00:49:53.300 so I think like that's just, that's a part of the discourse, I think that's a part of the memes,
00:49:58.900 they're always going to do this, and so pointing to one meme or another and saying this happened to it,
00:50:04.720 just, of course it did, like that, that's just how it works,
00:50:07.740 and I think you're right that there was a big, like a home court problem there,
00:50:12.500 of like how dare they just, you know, besmirch my, you know, very, very highbrow magazine
00:50:19.340 with some anonymous NRX poster guy, you know, but, you know, it's also like,
00:50:24.960 sorry guys, like this is, this is going to happen, there's going to be a lot more of this,
00:50:28.960 you're going to see, you're going to see Anon, you know, popping up and explaining
00:50:32.380 weird terminology and all your favorite conservative, you know, sites,
00:50:37.840 so just, just kind of, you know, grab on for the ride, because that's, that's going to happen,
00:50:41.320 but it's just very interesting, if you're, if you're trying to dissuade people from the idea,
00:50:49.520 or like if you, if you're trying to avoid men pursuing some kind of Nietzscheanism,
00:50:55.960 some kind of Nietzschean, you know, Bapist philosophy, then isn't like the worst thing you 0.63
00:51:02.740 can possibly do is just look at the most mildly, you know, masculine critique of a feminine space
00:51:10.860 and be like, well, that's Nietzschean, like, because then immediately every guy who,
00:51:16.360 every young guy who's looking at that is like, I see some problems with this,
00:51:19.940 who's this Nietzsche guy, why is this Nietzschean, and all of a sudden, you know,
00:51:23.440 you've, you've launched a thousand ships, you know, and it just, it seems like a very foolish way,
00:51:28.280 you're, you're Streisanding, Streisand affecting your, your, your objection to the longhouse
00:51:33.260 meme in this situation, I feel like. Yeah, I think it's, you know, there's a, there's also kind
00:51:40.820 of a, a lot of, there are a lot of followers around Bap who Streisand everything that comes out
00:51:46.300 from the, from, from anyone who has any sort of criticism around, around him, and I think it's,
00:51:51.560 you know, it's a, it's good, you know, that's kind of the following you want to have,
00:51:55.140 and, you know, that's a good on him for, for building that type of loyalty, you know,
00:52:00.320 Nietzschean, in, in a way, the, the esprit de corps that, that he, he built around him, but,
00:52:06.600 yeah, I mean, I don't know, I think people just don't know how to, how to react to this.
00:52:13.900 It's, obviously, this is meme magic, it comes from a different place, it is intellectual,
00:52:18.380 but it's also, you know, a little bit, you know, outside of the parameters of normal
00:52:23.180 intellectual discourse, I mean, the, you know, call it what you want, the, the baby talk aspect
00:52:27.520 of it, the, you know, the, the strange fact that, you know, you can't put a face to these,
00:52:32.080 you can only put, you know, a nice set of, of traps and a, and a back on a beach to, to whatever
00:52:38.200 communication comes out of this. I mean, it's, it's, you know, for someone like, you know,
00:52:44.200 like Patrick Deneen was the person who was kind of said to, you know, have reacted very badly to this,
00:52:49.440 you know, he's Professor Notre Dame. I mean, how, how should he negotiate these waters? Obviously,
00:52:56.100 he's dismayed at, at what he sees. I know, should one be dismayed? I'm not. I think it's, you know,
00:53:04.520 it's, it's just the way this stuff works. And, you know, I'm, I'm kind of glad that these,
00:53:12.020 these memes are out there and people are curious about them and they're listening to them. And this
00:53:17.300 is a new type of putting philosophy out there and putting, thinking about the world out there
00:53:22.540 that's more digestible to people who maybe haven't read, you know, how liberalism failed.
00:53:28.340 There's also a lot of echoes, obviously, in the post-liberal space and BAPA space and,
00:53:33.380 you know, NRX and all this type of stuff. We're kind of talking about the same stuff,
00:53:37.660 obviously, different conclusions and maybe different genealogies. Everyone's got their pet theory
00:53:42.340 about what it is, but we're on similar grounds. So I think it's, it's a mixture of just being,
00:53:48.440 I don't know, surprised and disconcerted about this new landscape, you know, a little bit of
00:53:54.480 kind of boomer energy here. But also just a bit of a turf war, I think, you know, like who is the
00:54:02.140 heir to post-liberalism? You know, obviously the, the, the Catholic integralists want, want it to be
00:54:07.220 them. I don't know. NRX wants, wants their CEO, Red Caesar type, you know, the different factions 0.54
00:54:14.860 want different outcomes. And I guess this is the time where there's enough clout in the space
00:54:19.380 for us to be fighting it out. Maybe that's why also all these beefs are intensifying and the hit
00:54:23.940 pieces and this and that. And it's interesting and fascinating, but it's also a little bit,
00:54:28.560 a little bit tiresome to just see this like churning infighting about the dumbest stuff. 0.62
00:54:33.860 But yeah, I mean, you know, it is what it is. Well, I wanted to get to one more thing that, 0.88
00:54:40.520 but we went that round a bunch of rabbit holes. So we'll, we'll kind of pull it back to, to the
00:54:45.760 male, female relationships here real quick. But guys, if you have any questions for myself or Alex,
00:54:51.440 go ahead and drop them. We'll get to those here before we go. This'll probably be kind of our last
00:54:56.680 topic here. But one of the big things getting back to your, your original piece that you talked about
00:55:02.520 was dependence, right? And we, we talked about kind of that the technology and the welfare state,
00:55:11.300 the, the, the social engineering freed people of that dependence. And when you don't have to fall
00:55:18.140 into those roles, naturally, everything gets confused. Everything gets mixed up. Is there a way
00:55:26.320 to return to dependence or is there another framework with which men and women can negotiate
00:55:33.140 and have successful relationships and marriages kind of in the modern mindset or are, are the,
00:55:40.780 is the plethora of ways in which one can avoid dependence just too tempting? And there's, there's
00:55:47.760 no way kind of to go, to go back, to put this back into Pandora's box. Now that we, we have all these
00:55:53.460 things that you just have to kind of wait for the, the welfare state to collapse before men and women
00:55:57.840 can, can once again, depend on each other and form kind of more natural, uh, bonds.
00:56:04.660 Yeah. I think, um, before, before the welfare state collapses, cause it might, it might be a little
00:56:10.240 bit of time and just putting that aside. Cause that's, you know, legitimate option, you know,
00:56:14.060 I won't discount it. Black pill. There is a math thing involved there. Yeah.
00:56:17.800 So it might be coming. Um, I, I think, you know, this, you, you put it very well. The,
00:56:24.340 the idea there's just kind of, there's something haunting about the, the cultural idea of independence.
00:56:31.360 I mean, the fact that it's been shoved down our throats by every sort of, you know, media, I mean,
00:56:36.180 maybe less so for men, cause men kind of are independent, but for women it's, it's, you know,
00:56:40.440 the theme of, of every sort of show, you know, just the living alone, having your job, doing this and
00:56:45.840 that, um, you know, there's that force. And then on the other hand, it's just the reality that,
00:56:50.880 um, you know, women really did have to be tied into, uh, you know, structures provided by their 1.00
00:56:58.200 father, structures provided by their husband, you know, protection by their brothers. And now they
00:57:03.220 don't. And I mean, this is obviously part of the state, you know, cause people say, oh, the nanny
00:57:07.000 state just married the women, but it's also their jobs. I mean, you know, some, some jobs suck. And I 0.98
00:57:12.580 know this is a big meme, you know, the women, you know, working girl bosses and, you know, crying
00:57:17.100 their, their nights into whatever ramen noodle soup they make for themselves alone at night,
00:57:21.700 whatever, sleeping with their cats and stuff. It's true. And I think, um, I think a lot of people
00:57:26.200 are waking up to the fact that, you know, can being completely independent is a, is a, is a barren and
00:57:31.800 psychologically exhausting existence. Um, but at the same time, um, it really is the case that a lot of
00:57:39.040 women end up preferring that, you know, they convince themselves, you know, through cultural 1.00
00:57:43.940 forces and all that then. So those women have opted out, you know, essentially fem cells, 1.00
00:57:48.620 MGTOW type, type situations. But I feel like the vast majority of people, um, are starting to
00:57:56.600 have a few understandings about dependence, maybe not necessarily explicitly, you know,
00:58:01.280 they couldn't write an essay about what they're feeling, but they, they seem to, to understand that,
00:58:06.920 okay, you can't go on like this. Um, and I feel like that's a, that's a good chance for,
00:58:12.540 um, you know, programs like yours or mine to start filling in the gaps. Okay. What exactly is
00:58:18.380 happening here? You know, you know, we feel terrible. What is this? Why, you know, I did
00:58:23.700 everything that was asked of me, uh, and still here I am, you know, battling whatever anxiety,
00:58:29.460 depression type, type stuff. Um, and I feel like, you know, a good narrative can, can serve, um, um,
00:58:39.620 a serious purpose here. I mean, it did, like I said, it did for me, um, you know, call it a narrative,
00:58:45.300 call it ideology. Um, it, it really served me well to, to realize, okay, this, my existence is,
00:58:51.420 you know, it's either I figure out a way to get out of this, or I'm probably not going to be alive
00:58:55.540 in the next five years. We'll, we'll just, you know, have to sort this out some way. Um, so yeah,
00:59:01.220 I mean, I do think there is space for kind of a spiritual awakening in that sense. And, you know,
00:59:08.400 the problem is that we really, we have to choose dependence now and we have to choose it. Like I
00:59:14.420 said, with the backdrop that life is tragic because there's something haunting about the possibility of
00:59:20.780 independence is, you know, it's the swiping on the apps as the idea that, you know, maybe someone
00:59:25.520 else is out there. It's the problem that it's hard and people don't expect things to be hard
00:59:31.320 anymore, like marriage or, you know, essentially anything, um, you know, it's, it's hard to,
00:59:35.460 to get past the hard part. Um, but I feel like this is, you know, there's power in narrative that
00:59:42.600 teaches people that, okay, this is, this is the way life is. And beyond this, there is an abyss and you
00:59:51.580 either put, put up and build and, um, I don't know, put brick after brick on the life you want
00:59:59.920 to have, even if it's hard, even if it's raining on the day. Um, or you essentially confront the abyss
01:00:07.080 and there are many ways to confront the abyss. You know, you can do that for hedonism. You can do
01:00:11.420 that through just like, I don't know, falling into, you know, unsavory ideologies. There are all sorts
01:00:16.020 of ways to do it. Um, but you know, dependence is chosen. Unfortunately, there's no, there's no
01:00:23.440 other way to, to have dependence now. I mean, sure in the third world or whatever, but here in the
01:00:28.020 West, even in Eastern Europe, dependence is chosen. And I feel like it's a good choice if you have the 1.00
01:00:34.140 opportunity to make it and you should, you know, get yourself in the situation to have that
01:00:38.320 opportunity, even if that itself is hard. So, I mean, yeah. And more and more people want
01:00:43.840 dependence. More and more people I know, cause they, they talk to me, you know, I get lots
01:00:47.380 of messages from women and men and they're like, okay, I've, I've changed my life around.
01:00:52.900 I was on a bad path. Um, it involved a lot of sacrifice. It's going to involve a lot of sacrifice,
01:00:57.980 but, um, it's worth it. So, yeah, I mean, I don't know. This is also like a Jocko Willink
01:01:04.600 thing, but you know, like, uh, enjoy the suck or something like that. You know, it's, it is 0.96
01:01:09.960 part of it. And yeah, I mean, make, make, make your peace with the fact that this is
01:01:14.520 it.
01:01:15.900 Yeah, no, again, I think it's true. It's not, it's not what anyone wants to hear and it's
01:01:21.560 not a long-term solution for a overarching social problem, but it is the truth for the
01:01:29.320 individual. And while you can sit around forever waiting for these problems to kind
01:01:35.520 of write themselves, or you can just understand that you're going to make these choices and
01:01:40.880 those are going to impact your life. And you, like you said, you can either choose to find
01:01:45.780 a way to, you know, incorporate yourself into a relationship with someone, build dependency
01:01:51.920 on each other, choose those options, or you can, you know, sit around and, you know, enjoy
01:01:59.360 hedonism and play video games all day or whatever, and try to escape it. But there, there isn't
01:02:03.900 really another option where you can just sit around hoping that like someone hits the society
01:02:08.060 collapse button tomorrow and this all gets solved for you. So you really do have to, you
01:02:12.400 have to make those conscious choices. And again, I think like with so much that's going on today,
01:02:17.620 whether it be, you know, uh, people who are unable to escape the, uh, you know, electronic
01:02:23.520 devices, you know, kids who are stuck on, uh, on iPads all day, or when it comes to, you know,
01:02:29.900 religion, just, there are so many things in your life where the people who make this through,
01:02:34.900 who make it through this are the people who intentionally choose, uh, the option that is
01:02:40.380 less, that is harder, that is more difficult, that is more unpleasant, uh, that is fraught with,
01:02:46.180 with possible, uh, peril, but at the end of the day is going to have a much better outcome than the
01:02:50.780 people who just take the kind of the slicked road, right down kind of the path of, of dopamine drips
01:02:55.740 and, and kind of easy outs. Uh, and there's really, there's really just no way to avoid that as much
01:03:00.240 as, as other people would like kind of a system that, that does all that for them. Uh, but that
01:03:06.040 said guys, we're going to go ahead and wrap things up here. Alex, can you let everyone know about your
01:03:11.140 wonderful podcast and where to find what you do? Of course. Yeah. I mean, if you type the subversive
01:03:16.580 podcast, uh, into any sort of browser of your choice, you'll find my podcast. Uh, I do early releases
01:03:22.840 on Substack and Patreon. I do some exclusive stuff. I got some articles on my Patreons. If you enjoy
01:03:27.460 my rambling way of talking, please do subscribe to my Patreon and, uh, or Substack and you'll get
01:03:33.740 everything early and exclusive, all sorts of goodies and stuff. Um, so yeah, that's, uh, at, uh,
01:03:39.500 alexkashuta.substack.com. Uh, and Patreon is, yeah, just subversive podcast. You'll find it. Um,
01:03:47.260 yeah, that's, that's about it. Excellent. And guys, of course, if this is your first time here,
01:03:51.780 make sure that you subscribe. And if you want to listen to this on, uh, you know, all of your
01:03:56.660 major podcast platforms, you just go and type in the Oren McIntyre show. If you do subscribe,
01:04:02.360 make sure that you leave a rating review on Apple, Spotify, all that stuff. It really helps out.
01:04:06.720 Uh, should be having Curtis Yarvin on this Thursday. I think a lot of people will enjoy that. So make sure
01:04:12.680 that you are, uh, you know, checking your notifications and subscribing, all that stuff. So you get to catch
01:04:18.460 that. Uh, but that said, thanks for coming by guys. Always appreciate it. Alex, thanks for coming on.
01:04:24.640 And as always, I will talk to everybody next time.