The Auron MacIntyre Show - How Non-State Actors Capture Power ｜ Guest： Bennett's Phylactery ｜ 3⧸2⧸23

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00:01:00.000 We'll be right back.

00:01:30.440 I've got a great stream with a returning guest who I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:01:35.940 He's the head of the excellent organization, Exit, and he's also a very good writer who

00:01:40.080 does some very interesting podcasts and sub-stacks.

00:01:43.280 Bennett's Phylactery, thanks for joining me, man.

00:01:45.720 Thanks.

00:01:45.980 Good to be here.

00:01:46.320 So you had this really good piece on kind of your latest episode, latest piece out of your

00:01:53.080 sub-stack that I think is really important because it does a great job of taking a lot

00:01:58.840 of things that people in our sphere talk about, but really has a lot of application, a lot of

00:02:04.720 practical application and practical ways that you can apply these theories of power or the flow

00:02:11.280 of power, these kind of things, analysis to kind of what's actually going on today.

00:02:16.220 And you started with, by kind of making this review of this book.

00:02:20.800 Is it Robert McLuhan?

00:02:22.940 I was trying to remember his name real quick.

00:02:24.620 David Kilcullen.

00:02:25.900 Kilcullen.

00:02:26.580 Yeah, I just did.

00:02:27.500 Okay.

00:02:28.300 Kilcullen.

00:02:28.860 But yeah, he did this book about kind of how the Taliban won and then kind of how the

00:02:36.800 modern warfare is moving these insurgents out of the mountains and these far off places

00:02:44.460 and kind of into the cities and integrating into the population and competing with other

00:02:51.500 people who are supposed to be kind of the legitimate leaders of their country.

00:02:55.880 But you also talk about how this isn't related just to, you know, Afghanistan.

00:03:00.360 This happens in many other countries and can happen in with non-militaristic, non-insurgent

00:03:07.340 organizations as well.

00:03:09.180 And that's the stuff that I want to focus on a little bit.

00:03:12.940 But to start at the beginning, can we talk a little bit about kind of setting the table?

00:03:18.780 How does one of these factions end up capturing power?

00:03:24.460 Or how does one of these non-state actors end up capturing power flows in maybe some of

00:03:29.100 these third world countries and then we can kind of translate it over to how it happens

00:03:32.980 in first world countries?

00:03:35.920 Yeah.

00:03:36.180 Well, I think it actually starts by hiding out in the power flows.

00:03:40.740 It doesn't begin with, I think often it doesn't begin with a conscious effort to capture them.

00:03:49.100 It's to give you an example.

00:03:52.560 Basically, a lot of things have to be going wrong.

00:03:55.520 There have to be sort of the, ideally, if it's a really strong state, what will happen is

00:04:03.460 all of the tax revenues will be adequately collected and they'll be collected by the right

00:04:09.920 people and they'll go to the right places.

00:04:11.660 And then the benefits of the taxation, the food stamps and the tuition subsidies and all those

00:04:19.800 things will go to the appropriate people determined by policy.

00:04:23.620 And that's kind of what we call like in the West anti-corruption, like a function, like

00:04:33.200 good governance basically means the state collects all of the resources and it distributes them

00:04:40.120 to exactly who it intends to distribute them to.

00:04:42.760 But in these cities, his thesis is that basically the crowding and the chaos and the limitations

00:04:54.580 on state capacity in cities, especially like cities in the developing world, they make it

00:04:59.940 so that those power flows leak, right?

00:05:02.700 Like the police force can't watch all the cops.

00:05:07.560 And so the cops start collecting bribes and they start moonlighting as protection forces

00:05:12.760 for some gang.

00:05:15.360 And in that way, you know, in that case, it would be the gang.

00:05:20.140 They begin to capture the state's ability to prosecute violence.

00:05:25.260 But it can also be just any place where the state is dropping the ball, like, or even if they're

00:05:32.700 not deliberately dropping the ball, where the state is just failing to deliver on a basic,

00:05:37.560 thing that we expect states to do, like keep track of property rights.

00:05:42.920 And so one of the important things the Taliban did was even in environments where they were 0.97

00:05:48.140 not in power, like where they were literally like an underground cell in some community, they

00:05:57.360 would start building like a shadow county recorder's office, a shadow ledger of property rights.

00:06:02.680 And they would adjudicate and actually, from what people said, adjudicate fairly, like

00:06:09.340 they would really try to determine who had the best claim on, you know, these water rights

00:06:14.860 or this pasture or whatever it was.

00:06:17.500 And what that did was it made it so that the people who basically adjudicated their property

00:06:25.260 rights through the Taliban were, had skin in the game for the Taliban to succeed.

00:06:31.100 Like when, when the, the old man sends his son to go pick up a rifle and fight for the

00:06:37.420 Taliban, he doesn't have to like be bought into the Taliban's ideological program and

00:06:42.820 neither does his son.

00:06:43.840 It's, it's really a question of like, well, if the Taliban doesn't win here, then the warlord

00:06:48.920 who usurped our property rights and took them away 20 years ago during the post-Soviet

00:06:54.840 period, he's going to ride back into town and take away our farm.

00:06:58.420 So the Taliban better wins to go pick up a rifle and it's just fighting for the family 0.90

00:07:01.140 farm.

00:07:01.880 And you think about like, um, the way that Shelby Foote characterized the civil war in

00:07:07.820 that Ken Burns doc, you ever see the Ken Burns civil war?

00:07:10.320 I don't know, but, uh, the, the union soldiers, they're talking to some captured rebel and,

00:07:18.560 uh, they ask him like, you know, you're, you're a dirt farmer, just like us.

00:07:22.360 You don't need slaves.

00:07:23.200 Why are you fighting?

00:07:23.840 And he's, his answer is because you're here, like he's fighting for his little, little,

00:07:29.840 uh, uh, patch.

00:07:32.380 And, and in that guy's mind, the, the, the insurgent, the Confederacy, uh, you know, it

00:07:40.520 depends on how you look at it in his, in his mind, they weren't the insurgents, but the

00:07:43.280 insurgent party is the guarantor and the defender of his rights. 0.86

00:07:48.700 And so, uh, you get, you get alignment and, and I guess the fundamental, uh, the way this

00:07:57.760 book helped me see the world differently was he was like, they're not actually competing

00:08:01.840 over resources or competing over, um, turf.

00:08:07.520 They're competing for, uh, the, the compliance and cooperation of the population.

00:08:13.380 Um, if I set the rules, who listens both because, and, and it comes down, I don't know how, how

00:08:21.680 far you want me to go with this, but, but it comes down to building a bubble that is very

00:08:27.520 safe on the inside and very dangerous on the outside.

00:08:30.440 And the Taliban had the benefit of like Afghanistan just being an incredibly dangerous place. 0.87

00:08:34.940 So like, they didn't have to make things much safer to, to make a bubble that felt pretty

00:08:40.880 cozy to people.

00:08:42.180 And, uh, yeah.

00:08:43.800 Yeah, no, sorry.

00:08:45.400 Yeah.

00:08:45.520 I definitely want to get deeper into that, uh, that aspect as well.

00:08:48.660 Cause I think that's really important, but I do want to spend a second, a little bit on,

00:08:52.860 on that capturing of power flows first, because I thought that was very interesting that the

00:08:58.460 way, you know, you kind of frame that was obviously a lot of these organizations do start out as

00:09:04.540 basically just gangs, you know, they're, they're just, they're just, uh, you know, coercing

00:09:08.320 compliance, but over time you realize that actually that's not the best game in town and

00:09:15.300 providing things that people need, like you said, making them feel safe inside your bubble

00:09:19.660 is far more valuable to get them on your side than necessarily just showing up with a bunch

00:09:26.700 of guns and breaking things until someone gives you money.

00:09:29.500 And so the, uh, you know, the, the ability to kind of capture those essential factors

00:09:36.380 from a government, especially governments that aren't able to do those things is really

00:09:40.720 important.

00:09:41.220 And another point you made that I liked was that a lot of times they will specifically

00:09:45.380 while they might need to be capable of violence, while they're this proto state inside the state,

00:09:50.460 while they are non-state actors at that time, they are careful about the things they usurp

00:09:55.960 as to not trigger certain defense mechanisms inside the existing state.

00:10:00.540 So if you're distributing food or aid, or you're, you're the one that makes sure that people get

00:10:07.660 jobs or, you know, certain benefits from the government get handed down, you become an essential

00:10:13.220 part of the power flow of the government.

00:10:16.340 So they need you and they can't just dispose of you immediately, but you also are building a

00:10:22.560 power base inside that sphere because those people see you as the actual guarantor of the

00:10:30.380 thing that's being distributed.

00:10:31.900 And so you can build power inside without necessarily having to directly compete with, for instance,

00:10:38.920 a monopoly on violence of the state.

00:10:41.560 I mean, you've watched, we've watched NGOs do this, right?

00:10:45.520 They capture so much power just by routing the flows.

00:10:48.640 And, um, and people are very grateful for that.

00:10:52.340 And I actually, I mean, I think even, even street gangs, primarily, uh, to the extent that

00:11:01.000 they do have the buy-in of the population, it's, it's because they're, uh, they're coercing

00:11:07.200 coercers.

00:11:08.460 It's like you, you, you join the gang, like it's like a prison gang.

00:11:11.800 Like, uh, you, you join the gang because if you don't join a gang, then you're all alone

00:11:17.740 and you're a, you're a target.

00:11:19.540 But, um, inside, inside the gang, there's protection.

00:11:23.580 And then like, even things like a protection racket, those are, uh, characterizes really

00:11:29.360 negative parasitic thing, uh, in developed countries because we, we, we think that we

00:11:33.980 have, um, that taken care of by the police, but in an environment where that's not being

00:11:39.400 taken care of by the police or the police are even, uh, uh, executing some, some extra

00:11:44.460 legal violence.

00:11:46.660 Then a protection racket, uh, it's sort of just a competitive provider for security services.

00:11:53.260 And, and, and, you know, when they, when they say like, you know, nice shop would be a shame

00:12:00.060 if something happened to it.

00:12:01.080 They're not just talking about like, we're going to break your windows.

00:12:03.600 It's like, well, there's a couple other gangs around here who might shake you down.

00:12:07.180 And, and if, if they come to you and you're paying us your protection money, then we'll

00:12:12.700 go get them.

00:12:13.740 And so like, there's a, I think basically it's a mistake to characterize these institutions,

00:12:20.920 even these like informal illegal institutions is totally parasitic because it misunderstands

00:12:25.720 why people, why people defend them, why they protect them, why they, you know, tolerate

00:12:30.960 them.

00:12:31.260 Yeah, no, absolutely.

00:12:34.080 And, and so you, you call this the, the system of competitive control, right?

00:12:39.460 Is that, that you have these, these different, uh, actors that are working inside the same

00:12:46.220 state simultaneously.

00:12:47.460 One is officially the state.

00:12:49.340 One is the non-state actor.

00:12:51.120 And, and, and they might be in, in many ways, butting up against each other.

00:12:56.860 They might, they might be hostile, but in many ways, they might also be, like I said, uh,

00:13:01.980 or like you, you say in the piece that they might be reliant on each other in certain areas.

00:13:05.980 It might be certain areas of overlap where one of the power flows has been captured, but,

00:13:10.660 and now you have these spheres of competitive control because the state can't actually provide

00:13:16.500 the thing that the, you know, the warlord or the Taliban or the, you know, political machine

00:13:22.720 inside New York can provide to the people and, or the NGO, you know, all these, all these,

00:13:29.120 uh, actors are not necessarily the, the, what makes them hard to discard is the fact that

00:13:35.160 they do provide a aspect of the state that is expected that no one else can, can provide.

00:13:43.040 Um, now you also talk about the importance of media top cover, um, which I think is very

00:13:49.480 essential because, uh, as you point out in the piece, it's very easy for, uh, two different

00:13:56.020 conflicts to have two groups with competing spheres of control.

00:14:00.080 One of those, uh, conflicts, the insurgent will get very favorable, uh, media coverage every

00:14:07.020 time the state actor has some kind of violence that tries to enforce its control of the area.

00:14:12.760 In the other one, they'll just get completely destroyed in the press as like horrific terrorists

00:14:18.000 who are, who are just taking out children.

00:14:20.920 So can you talk a little bit about the importance of media top cover and why it's important for

00:14:26.800 these organizations that don't get favorable media top cover to understand how to work without it?

00:14:32.600 Uh, yeah, I mean, I think it just, it just drastically limits what you can safely do.

00:14:37.500 I mean, you, you look at like the Arab spring and because those people had, uh, favorable

00:14:45.660 attention, not from, not just from mass media, but from social media companies, uh, they were

00:14:51.680 able to like, there was, there was a Russian missile launcher that the Libyans were using

00:14:57.000 and like, they were sharing, uh, the intimate details of that missile launcher on Twitter

00:15:04.060 and like how to take it out.

00:15:07.100 And obviously, uh, anyone who didn't have favorable, uh, top cover from, from not just the media,

00:15:14.480 not just social media, but also American intelligence, uh, there's no way.

00:15:18.780 I mean, that, that would be, uh, you know, imagine if the situations were reversed, imagine if

00:15:24.880 somebody, if somebody, uh, uh, uh, you know, who was, who was an opponent of, of that intelligence

00:15:30.760 bureaucracy tried something like that.

00:15:32.680 Um, and, and I mean, it, it changes how you can, how you can coordinate.

00:15:38.600 I also think like it's, it's not just that, um, outside actors co-opt or usurp elements of

00:15:49.020 state capacity.

00:15:50.080 In a lot of cases, these are rogue components of the state.

00:15:54.280 I mean, that's, that's essentially what, what the IC has become the intelligence community.

00:15:59.080 That's essentially what, uh, I, I tell a story of this Jamaican gangster who was basically

00:16:04.400 like, uh, a community organizer for the, the, uh, right wing, whatever that means party in Jamaica.

00:16:11.720 Uh, they sort of have a Republican Democrat split, like most sort of, uh, bipartisan systems do.

00:16:18.220 But, um, he, he essentially was like the, uh, the, the, the door knocker for those guys.

00:16:23.840 And, and by securing the ability to get votes, he ended up securing all kinds of lucrative

00:16:28.960 government contracts and favorable housing and, and, and by so doing became the, uh, they

00:16:37.980 didn't think of those things as services they were getting from the Jamaican government.

00:16:40.740 They thought of them as things they were getting from the Don.

00:16:43.700 And, uh, and that, that turned out to be true because if the other party won the election,

00:16:48.220 they would come in like bulldoze, uh, the, the housing developments and, and, and shut off

00:16:53.120 your water and your sewer and all kinds of things.

00:16:54.700 So, um, so like it, it, it can begin either outside or inside the state.

00:17:00.960 It's basically just, does the state have the power to like monitor and control every step

00:17:07.740 of the power flow?

00:17:08.900 And, and that ultimately like where, where we're at right now, it, the thing that, the thing

00:17:17.640 that dissident groups are afraid of has almost nothing to do with like, like, uh,

00:17:24.700 uh, uh, Biden and, and, and like Eric Swalwell talk about like, you know, your AR-15 isn't

00:17:30.360 going to mean much if there's an F-15 or a, or a, uh, a predator drone circling overhead.

00:17:35.320 Right.

00:17:35.720 So why bother like give up your, your AR-15, but nobody's worried about being struck by a

00:17:43.780 predator drone.

00:17:44.640 They're worried about being targeted by the intelligence community.

00:17:47.260 They're worried about being targeted by the media and, and surveilled.

00:17:50.840 And, and those are the, those are the aspects of state power that are still really ironclad.

00:17:59.940 Like nobody can hack into your, uh, discord like the NSA can.

00:18:06.260 Nobody can watch you from orbit like the national reconnaissance office.

00:18:11.280 Like there's, there's just, uh, um, those are the, like, it used to be like states were

00:18:18.660 in power because they were the only people that could field tanks and jets and aircraft

00:18:22.380 carriers.

00:18:23.640 But the, the, actually the media has sort of replaced that tool, uh, because if you use

00:18:30.220 tanks and jets and aircraft carriers and the media is going to have something to say about

00:18:33.220 it, positive or negative.

00:18:34.120 And that, um, that sort of drives how useful those tools are to you, as you see with, uh,

00:18:42.280 Gaddafi and, and, uh, and, and, uh, Bashar al-Assad, like they, they, they pay a much higher

00:18:49.620 price for, uh, for going through neighborhoods and blowing holes in things than for instance,

00:18:57.360 the IDF does in, in Gaza or the West bank.

00:18:59.580 Um, and that's, that's the importance of, of media top cover.

00:19:04.120 Yeah, it really is.

00:19:05.840 Uh, like you said, the optics really do matter even for a government like ours, which theoretically

00:19:11.780 controls all of these, uh, these media institutions.

00:19:16.220 You still have to be very careful, careful.

00:19:18.140 Like you said, the, the, you know, Joe Biden, you know, uh, dropping a bunch of bombs on some,

00:19:24.260 you know, chud neighborhood in, in, uh, Alabama is still going to have a huge impact, right? 0.63

00:19:29.440 Like that's still a lot of media fallout.

00:19:32.120 And so, uh, those, those, uh, finesse instruments are really key.

00:19:37.820 They, they allow people to be, uh, targeted very specifically, very surgically.

00:19:43.220 Uh, and, and this is a part that I really liked that I think is very important without that

00:19:49.120 you talked about, without disrupting the idea that there are rules, right?

00:19:53.880 Everybody wants to know that there are rules.

00:19:56.460 There's things I can do to avoid being targeted.

00:20:00.600 And most people need to know that there's a stability inside the system where even if I

00:20:06.400 think these rules are totalitarian, even if I think these rules are in a, you know, some

00:20:10.800 infringement on my constitutional rights, whatever that's worth at this point, at least there are

00:20:15.840 rules that I can hold you to.

00:20:18.020 Right.

00:20:18.140 And, and the, and, and so these soft implements allow people to say, well, I didn't cross this

00:20:24.020 very specific line.

00:20:25.540 So the IRS won't be odd than me.

00:20:27.560 The FBI won't be knocking on my door.

00:20:29.560 And the more the regime is willing to violate that certainness and stability in rules, even

00:20:36.920 if there are rules that are harsh and unfair is the more that it makes the, the safety inside

00:20:42.220 its sphere, uh, feel less secure.

00:20:44.460 And what media can do is they can frame you as out of, out of harmony with the rules that

00:20:54.080 what, like, because, uh, uh, essentially if you believe that, like, for instance, Waco,

00:21:02.960 uh, if you believe that they were just targeted because they were sort of conservative and Christian

00:21:10.200 and, and, and, and all that stuff, then it's like, well, that, that could have been us.

00:21:14.760 Just anybody who, anybody who tries to, uh, build something separate from the system, some

00:21:21.880 like, uh, compound in the woods is going to get Waco'd.

00:21:26.200 But there's another, uh, voice in that conversation that's saying like, no, actually there was like,

00:21:33.520 you know, he married an underage kid and that was like technically legal, but like super weird.

00:21:38.060 And like, he was stockpiling guns and, and, and since I don't do that, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm

00:21:42.720 probably okay.

00:21:43.200 Like, like there's, there's specific sets of things that he did that like triggered that

00:21:46.980 response.

00:21:47.460 And we go, well, I just won't do those things.

00:21:49.540 I can still be a conservative Christian.

00:21:51.080 I can still be, you know, um, it's a question of like, even if you're the hegemon and you're 0.59

00:21:57.320 in control of everything, including the media, uh, you, you are limited in your ability

00:22:02.520 to just target anybody you don't like, because like you say, and the more you do that, the,

00:22:10.600 the, the more people start to think, I have no idea how to be safe within this system.

00:22:17.960 And so my buy-in to my, what the state provides me essentially is predictability is order.

00:22:25.460 And, and if, and if, if the state becomes to me the equivalent of like just a gang that

00:22:33.980 hasn't shook me down yet because I haven't caught their attention yet, um, then you start

00:22:41.980 looking for alternatives.

00:22:44.060 You start looking outside that system.

00:22:46.480 And the more dramatic that violation is, uh, the more of those types of alternatives prop

00:22:53.540 crop up and the more, uh, extreme they become in their methods.

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00:23:29.380 Now, another thing related to this that you talked about is how people just want equilibrium.

00:23:36.340 Like we're talking about, they just want a system where they know they're safe, they

00:23:39.740 know they're secure, and a large amount of people are just non-political.

00:23:44.360 They just want the state to resolve these state, these questions for us.

00:23:48.580 And that's really weird for a lot of people to hear, I think, because today we look around

00:23:52.380 and we're like, everything's political.

00:23:53.860 Everyone has an opinion.

00:23:55.260 Everyone is charged.

00:23:56.320 Everyone has to be an activist all the time.

00:23:58.300 And we feel like this is just a natural state of humanity that like every person is just walking

00:24:03.740 around hypercharged up with this obsession about politics and ready to just, you know, disown

00:24:09.180 their family and their friends and leave their church and never see anyone again if they have

00:24:14.740 the slightest disagreement on some kind of, you know, trade policy or whatever.

00:24:19.460 And so I think it's hard for people to understand that.

00:24:22.780 But I think that a big part of that, like you said, is the lack of equilibrium.

00:24:29.160 It's that our system is specifically designed to constantly be in revolution, in a state

00:24:36.180 of revolution.

00:24:37.080 That's how our system is designed.

00:24:39.200 And because of that, we're just tricked into believing that actually everyone wants to

00:24:43.620 constantly be involved in this democratic process.

00:24:45.800 When the vast majority of time, you don't need to win everybody all the time.

00:24:49.800 You don't need to convince everyone all the time.

00:24:53.760 The vast majority of people will just go where power is going as long as they know that that

00:24:57.600 power is going to be stable and reliable, and they're not going to get got by that quick

00:25:02.120 shift of frame and rule when they're just going about their day.

00:25:07.940 Yeah, because if you live in the 90s in America, or like almost any time besides right now, freedom

00:25:19.140 to you is like low and stable inflation and low taxes and, you know, being sort of left

00:25:35.680 alone because you're ambitious.

00:25:37.180 Like, you're not trying to change the world.

00:25:38.340 You're trying to, like, make money.

00:25:39.160 You're trying to raise a family.

00:25:40.440 Like, freedom is a question of what you want to do in the world.

00:25:44.480 Like, are you free?

00:25:45.740 It depends on what you want, right?

00:25:47.180 Like, am I free to do what?

00:25:50.020 So for most people, the First Amendment is almost irrelevant to them because they don't

00:25:57.760 actually want to talk about politics, certainly not in public.

00:26:01.580 And, you know, some of them want to go to church, and, you know, it's important to them,

00:26:05.600 I guess, that they are allowed to go to their church.

00:26:07.660 But, like, the big, like, philosophical questions of, like, of, like, what rights do we have

00:26:15.160 as Americans?

00:26:17.280 They're not concerned about that.

00:26:18.560 They're just concerned about, like, tell me what I got to do to be able to ignore all

00:26:23.480 that.

00:26:24.440 Like, to not have to think about it so that I can get back to what I actually care about,

00:26:27.680 which is making money and raising a family.

00:26:29.180 And I think what's increasingly happening in our system is the basics are being interfered

00:26:41.440 with, the basics of being able to raise a family, the basics of being able to find a

00:26:47.300 maid, the basics of being able to get an education and a job.

00:26:49.960 Like, it's starting to hit apolitical people where it hurts.

00:26:56.200 And then they all, and then they get interested in politics, right?

00:26:59.060 Because politics is interested in them.

00:27:02.260 But ultimately, yeah, I mean, it's the same group of people who are shrieking on social

00:27:11.400 media about whatever the current thing is, especially, like, the 40, 50-year-old white

00:27:19.360 women, like, in the 90s, they were, like, 20, 30-year-old white women. 1.00

00:27:25.640 And they weren't like this.

00:27:27.240 Like, this is new.

00:27:28.740 This is something different.

00:27:29.520 This isn't, like, part of their genetics.

00:27:30.960 It's not part of their, like, soul.

00:27:33.940 It's, there's, something's happened to the incentive structure.

00:27:37.400 And I think, yeah, it's a search.

00:27:43.680 It's, in fact, a search for equilibrium.

00:27:45.240 They're trying to find what the rules are and stabilize them so that they can be safe.

00:27:53.600 And so, paradoxically, you've got conservatives who are trying to find equilibrium by saying,

00:28:01.340 wait, wait, wait.

00:28:03.940 We already agreed on some things, and I'm asking you to hold to your agreement.

00:28:07.980 I want to, I just want to live in the America of the 90s, or the America of the 2000s, or

00:28:12.680 the America right after Obergefell, which is a lot of what these, where these conservatives

00:28:17.080 are at.

00:28:17.560 Like, just take me back to the golden days of 2016.

00:28:22.340 And, and, and that's how they're searching for equilibrium.

00:28:26.220 And then, and then progressives, their search for equilibrium is, is more like, just tell me

00:28:32.300 what you want.

00:28:33.440 Do you want me to, the trans flag?

00:28:35.320 Are we putting more stuff on the trans flag?

00:28:36.840 Like, oh, like, okay, okay, sure.

00:28:38.740 Just let me, just let me get back to work.

00:28:40.660 You know, and one sympathizes kind of, like, there's, there's like a, there's a, there's

00:28:45.280 a, they, they do, I think most of them have a belief that, like, because they're not, they're

00:28:51.000 not, again, they're not political.

00:28:52.240 They're not really considering the long view.

00:28:54.540 They've been told that there's this injustice, and once this injustice is rectified, then it'll

00:28:59.740 be rectified, and we can all just, we can, we can live in a better world.

00:29:03.380 And, and, and what they are failing to, to understand is that it's never going to stop.

00:29:12.640 And, and it's, it's not going to equilibrate.

00:29:16.700 So, yeah, that's, that's, that's how that works.

00:29:21.380 Seems to.

00:29:21.880 Well, yeah, one of the things about why it won't equilibrate that you bring up is the,

00:29:26.940 the need to optimize inclusion, right?

00:29:29.620 Is, is the, the system is optimized to bring the most number of people under the mediating

00:29:34.120 power of not just the United States, but the actual Western hegemon, right?

00:29:40.620 And so the, so this need to, to kind of destroy the equilibrium is, is always because you're

00:29:48.440 trying to include more and more people being able to negotiate the needs of more and more

00:29:53.340 subgroups in order to kind of add them under the coalition.

00:29:56.820 This is kind of a dovetails into one of the, the general liberal critiques of liberalism that

00:30:01.900 it can't possibly mediate all these, that eventually you hit these existential conflicts and you will

00:30:07.640 get necessary, you know, that kind of these necessary conflicts will occur.

00:30:13.800 But I think it was very interesting that like the, the search to bring as many people under 0.82

00:30:19.580 the control of the system is the thing that is constantly forcing it to actually destabilize

00:30:26.200 or de, de-equilibrialize, however the best proper way to say that is.

00:30:31.600 Disequilibrate?

00:30:32.440 Yeah, that's probably right.

00:30:33.640 We'll go with that.

00:30:34.280 Yeah, and it becomes a procrastinate bed, right?

00:30:37.940 Because in order to make, in order to make Muslims and Christians and Jews and Buddhists 0.99

00:30:43.880 and Satanists all get along, you have to like chop off all the rough edges of all those, 0.59

00:30:49.480 of all those belief systems.

00:30:51.520 And you have to say like, well, okay, like you can be Christian, but you can't, you can't 1.00

00:30:54.540 like be that Christian, right? 0.84

00:30:56.480 You know, you can be Muslim, come on, like you gotta, you gotta compromise with us. 1.00

00:31:00.280 And the more people you bring into that tent that have more diversity of, of opinion and

00:31:05.980 values, the more you have to chop off of everybody to, to, to make them fit.

00:31:11.220 And yeah, it's, it's, and it is, I mean, it's the essence of democracy, really.

00:31:17.540 One of the things that is interesting about this, like this Jamaican gangster is he had 1.00

00:31:25.880 immense power because there were like tens of thousands of people whose, whose vote was

00:31:38.040 worth a lot, like, especially as you bundled them, right?

00:31:42.920 And so he could go to these people who have essentially no, um, no economic role in the

00:31:49.240 society, right?

00:31:50.080 And, and, and never have intergenerationally and say, you got to vote and, and, and, and

00:31:57.220 I'll get you, I'll get you the housing project and I'll get you the food stamps and we'll,

00:32:00.780 you know, you know, school supplies and all this stuff.

00:32:04.540 And by its nature, sort of this, this, this democratic meme, this democratic system of,

00:32:13.300 of, of elections with one person, one vote, it, it, it almost has to expand because whichever,

00:32:21.120 whichever component of that system can pull in new people gets power over the other side

00:32:28.080 of the system, you know, uh, uh, one political party says, well, we ought to let, uh, white 0.69

00:32:33.740 males vote, even if they don't own land and then they win tons of elections.

00:32:36.580 And then they, well, we ought to probably let, um, these freed slaves vote. 0.99

00:32:40.560 And that's a massive boon to them.

00:32:42.660 And we ought to let women vote. 1.00

00:32:43.740 And, you know, ultimately, and, and now basically it's like, well, we're not gonna, probably

00:32:48.580 not gonna let kids vote.

00:32:50.120 So, uh, how are we gonna, how are we gonna gain power over our enemies?

00:32:54.040 Well, we'll just import, uh, voters and that's how we'll do it.

00:32:58.080 And then it becomes, uh, rather than, um, sort of borders of, of, of gender, borders

00:33:06.060 of ethnicity, borders of, of, of class, uh, being sort of, uh, dissolved in the soup.

00:33:13.200 Now it's the, now it's the borders of the nation, uh, because, you know, you have to talk to them

00:33:19.740 as if they matter just as much as Americans, uh, to you personally.

00:33:23.660 Like, even if it's your job to care about Americans, well, it's no longer your job to

00:33:28.420 care about Americans.

00:33:29.000 It's your job to care about Ukraine. 0.91

00:33:32.060 Well, yeah, just, just, just, just hoover up whatever power there is in the system.

00:33:35.640 Right.

00:33:36.080 It's Ukrainians.

00:33:37.100 It's, but it's Mexicans and Guatemalans. 0.73

00:33:38.780 It's, it's, it's sort of you, uh, so yeah, there's, there's no equilibrium in that system.

00:33:44.100 And, and the, uh, the benefits that you can throw to like a weird minority group, for 1.00

00:33:55.520 instance, um, I, a lot of the, a lot of the like sexual culture war stuff is that the, the

00:34:03.200 little minority, I mean, it works the same as like sugar subsidies.

00:34:06.040 You got, I don't know if you know this, we have like, we have like outrageous sugar subsidies

00:34:09.000 in the U S and it's because, uh, the sugar farmers care way more about sugar subsidies

00:34:15.700 than anybody else.

00:34:16.860 So like, there's not a coherent constituency that's like real mad about sugar subsidies,

00:34:22.760 but the, but the, but there is this huge incentive gradient to support sugar subsidies because

00:34:27.560 the, the, you get the farmers on your side and, um, and lobbying dollars, et cetera.

00:34:33.580 And I think it's the same with these like boutique sexual minorities. 0.98

00:34:39.100 It's like, like they're gonna, they're gonna go to the mattresses for that stuff.

00:34:43.600 And right up until very recently when it became about kids, there wasn't, uh, there wasn't

00:34:52.680 like a really headstrong constituency against any of that stuff.

00:34:55.880 And now it's, it's like, it's really up against the wall of like, all right, but, but, but

00:35:01.680 these are my kids were not like, they're starting to be a, an, an opposing constituency to some

00:35:07.020 of this stuff.

00:35:08.240 Um, but yeah, that's, that's kind of how democracy eats all of these distinctions.

00:35:15.480 Cause there's power in breaking them down.

00:35:17.320 There's, there's, uh, an, an activation energy.

00:35:19.780 It's like, it's like, uh, it's like burning fuel.

00:35:23.280 Yeah.

00:35:23.800 This was actually, it was just talking to Paul Gottfried about this, that the Carl Schmidt

00:35:28.160 coined the term, the total state by saying that this is something.

00:35:31.500 That's going to happen in any democracy because by necessity, now the state, which used to

00:35:37.400 have monopoly on the political now must penetrate the social.

00:35:42.660 And now that these two spheres have crossed, there's no way to keep the state from eventually

00:35:46.880 just consuming every other sphere of influence because every one of these is a possible way

00:35:52.680 in which it can generate more power.

00:35:54.520 And leaving it alone is a play is a way that another non-state actor could secure one of the

00:36:01.080 power flows.

00:36:02.260 And so the total state has to come eventually into democracy, because if you don't control

00:36:07.260 every power flow as the state, then someone else does and you could lose sovereignty.

00:36:13.420 And so you really have to do this.

00:36:15.000 And like you said, they have to chop off all these rough edges, which again is, is also

00:36:21.460 something predicted by the man, you know, managerial revolution that the managers would

00:36:27.460 need to kind of remove all these rough edges.

00:36:30.080 So you can mediate most of these conflicts and you can also manage most of these people

00:36:34.520 with, with similar, uh, with similar plans.

00:36:37.180 Though I do think it is funny that, uh, while everything else, it seems to have the edges

00:36:41.540 that needs to get chopped off Satanism. 0.93

00:36:43.380 I don't know.

00:36:43.660 It seems to fit just fine into this, into this scene.

00:36:46.100 So it seems, seems like every aspect of Satanism from, you know, uh, from transgender surgeries 1.00

00:36:51.360 to the sacred ride of abortion fits right into the whole managerial scheme.

00:36:55.640 Quite, quite the coincidence.

00:36:58.800 Yeah, it's, uh, it, well, I mean, ultimately it's the, the only rule is there's no rules.

00:37:05.160 Do what thou wilt should be the whole of the law.

00:37:07.180 Like, I mean, that's, those are, uh, kind of two ways, like the, the paradox of tolerance

00:37:15.280 is basically the same thing as do what thou wilt should be the whole of the law.

00:37:18.640 Like that's, they're the same thing.

00:37:21.760 And, and, and yeah, it's, it's, it's necessary to the survival of liberalism that, uh, that all,

00:37:29.900 all, uh, personal and institutional boundaries be abolished.

00:37:37.180 So one other thing that you talked about that I wanted to make sure that we got to was the

00:37:44.160 importance of aggression framing, uh, this, this dovetails with, uh, media top cover, but

00:37:50.860 how important it is for people, uh, who are, who are doing this stuff to frame, uh, themselves as

00:38:00.560 kind of the defender and the other person as the aggressor.

00:38:03.180 So for instance, as we see with the United States, uh, in kind of this Russia crane conflict,

00:38:10.060 it doesn't matter if the United States and NATO in general have broken like a large number of their

00:38:14.960 promises in the attempt to like hedge in Russia.

00:38:18.000 Russia, if Russia throws the first punch, even though this punch was going to happen inevitably,

00:38:22.340 they're the bad guy.

00:38:24.380 And so it's really important for these non-state actors or just even state actors to be very careful

00:38:31.620 about their, their aggression framing and show it, you know, showing casting is who's the one who's

00:38:36.580 actually throwing the first move, move, especially if you don't have that media top cover that can

00:38:41.720 frame it the way you want it to.

00:38:44.520 Yeah. And it, it takes a lot of effort, even for a state actor to engineer the circumstances such that

00:38:51.820 they don't look like the aggressor. I mean, you know, uh, I don't know that, I don't know that

00:38:58.500 necessarily there's any nefarious plan to, um, to hurt Russia, uh, on the, on the part of NATO.

00:39:08.200 I think, I think NATO is an anti-Russian alliance. Yeah. And so it's just doing its job. Yeah.

00:39:13.680 It's just doing its job. And, and, and there's not, there's not like a, not like a person at the

00:39:18.780 wheel of that thing to say like, maybe this is stupid. Like, why are we, why are we mad at the 0.99

00:39:22.800 Russians again? I don't know. But it's just like, this is our sort of mission is to, is to oppose 1.00

00:39:27.960 these people. And, and, um, and this absorption of new allies, um, who then get access to all sorts

00:39:38.660 of new, uh, weapons manufactured by the, uh, military industrial complex. You know, there's

00:39:45.920 just, there's just this really strong incentive gradient to find it's, it's finding markets,

00:39:49.860 basically, uh, uh, markets for markets for fighter aircraft, markets for artillery and

00:39:55.300 missiles. And, and, uh, the more you can expand that sphere of influence, the more you sell

00:40:01.520 and, and just by vert, like they framed it in this really interesting way. It's like,

00:40:06.180 oh, we're not, you can watch the map of like NATO, like creeping East toward Russia. And it's

00:40:12.000 like, oh no, no, we're not, we're not, uh, actually like becoming the hegemon of these. It's

00:40:16.540 just, we're just protecting this guy and we're protecting this guy. We're protecting, we're

00:40:19.420 just keeping everybody safe. We're just in the business of keeping everybody safe.

00:40:23.020 And, um, and so, yeah. And, and, and then, and then Russia, uh, hits one of them and it's 0.88

00:40:28.900 like, ah, we're, we're vindicated. You know, we, we, uh, we told these Eastern European countries

00:40:34.180 they had to watch out for you and, and here, look what you did. You, you, uh, you earned all

00:40:40.180 of this, uh, all of this effort on our part retroactively.

00:40:46.540 So yeah, it makes them look like the, uh, it makes them look from, from, uh, the perspective 0.98

00:40:52.740 of an idiot in a hurry, you know, just sort of watching the news and sort of accepting 0.99

00:40:56.860 whatever the framing is. It, it, it, it makes them look like the good guy and it makes the 1.00

00:41:01.880 Russians look like the bad guy. 1.00

00:41:04.080 Yeah. And so that means it's, it's really important for anyone who's doing this to, to

00:41:08.040 kind of understand. And again, not all this needs to be military. Again, one of my favorite

00:41:12.900 points that you made in here is that how effective the, you know, the, again, the NGO type stuff

00:41:18.360 is, right. That has nothing to do with, with any kind of, uh, any kind of violence. They're

00:41:24.100 just people who are, you know, in, who are insinuating themselves in the core actions of

00:41:28.980 the state without, you know, uh, with that are, that are totally peaceful, but the state

00:41:33.900 can't, can't completely control. And therefore these people kind of gain power. But I wanted to

00:41:39.460 talk a little bit now transitioning to, uh, the practical application of this in our

00:41:44.340 scenario. Cause for instance, I, we do have people, I think finally in the conservative

00:41:49.860 or right-wing movement that are understanding and taking action on pieces of this. Uh, Chris

00:41:55.120 Rufo is probably the most prominent, but people like Corey DeAngelis are also doing this. They've

00:42:01.480 really targeted, especially the education system, which is, I think really important because

00:42:07.740 it's, it's a power flow. People expect the state at this point for better or for worse

00:42:14.100 to educate their children, to, to basically create childcare, uh, to, to credential their

00:42:20.000 children, uh, so that they can get, uh, employment opportunities, socialize their children. They

00:42:26.040 expect all of these things. And the fact that the democratic party, the left, the progressives

00:42:31.080 have a almost entire monopoly on this and that there's an entire NGO complex.

00:42:37.440 I mean, you know, uh, Bill Gates builds common core so he can basically just standardize and

00:42:43.580 monopolize education policy throughout the United States, uh, means that there's just a vast amount

00:42:50.440 of power that is controlled by these organizations and guys like DeAngelis and Rufo understand this

00:42:58.240 and they're actively targeting this monopoly and trying to wrest control of it from the state

00:43:06.580 through, you know, uh, uh, vouchers and through conversion of, of, uh, you know, legislation,

00:43:12.980 this kind of thing in order to, to, to kind of create, uh, a parallel or, or a, or a, a, some

00:43:20.500 kind of option outside of the system so that the state doesn't, doesn't completely control this.

00:43:25.400 Do you think that's a, an example? Do you see other examples where this is happening?

00:43:29.760 Yeah. I mean the, the sexual revolution, women, women, uh, going into the workforce, I mean, 0.96

00:43:36.480 that was like the splitting of the atom in terms of the energy that was released by that, because

00:43:40.600 what did that do? It all of a sudden made like every American family dependent on, uh, childcare

00:43:47.060 and the state had this apparatus of like, oh, we would be happy to acculturate your children

00:43:54.700 for 12 years of their lives. Uh, like by all means to go to work and, and, and leave your kids with us.

00:44:02.040 And, um, for a long time, I, you know, I don't, I don't think it was, I don't think in my lifetime,

00:44:07.820 that's been the smart move. Uh, like I don't, I don't, I think, I think a lot of what I was taught

00:44:12.060 in school was pretty screwed up too, but now it's becoming this like really existential problem

00:44:16.300 of like, wow. Um, I need to, I need to be able to support my family on a single income

00:44:21.220 because I cannot send my kids to these schools. And I, I mean, it's, it's an enormous, enormous

00:44:28.680 power flow, both, both in terms of the, the activist apparatuses that it, that it nourishes 1.00

00:44:35.320 both, you know, because there's so many academics, there's so many like stupid 0.98

00:44:41.800 master's degrees that the only way those master's degrees earn a living is because there's a public 0.99

00:44:48.100 school system. And, and so there's that, the activist network in the universities, and then

00:44:54.120 you've got the sort of activists on the ground, which is the teachers, um, who, uh, you know,

00:45:00.460 they, they get paid to basically, um, inculcate the state's values into your kids. And if you take

00:45:07.600 that power flow, I've said this more than once, if I could get them to just take my education tax

00:45:14.760 dollars and light them on fire, it'd be a massive improvement, a massive improvement, because then

00:45:20.880 at least that power flow is not being captured by people who are inimical to everything. I like,

00:45:26.620 they, they hate my guts and want me to die. Like just light it on fire, please. But, but yeah, 0.99

00:45:32.660 I mean, it, from, from, from Rufo's perspective, he's got this really interesting, he's placed a

00:45:39.820 wedge between what people are told about the purpose of the school system and what its actual

00:45:45.200 purpose is. And, um, I think, I think what I said was it's, it's bullshit, but it's load bearing 0.99

00:45:51.140 bullshit. I don't know if we can, but anyway, um, it, it's, uh, because what people are supposed 0.99

00:45:59.200 to believe about the schools is that the schools are employed by you, the taxpayer, right? Like

00:46:04.620 you're in, there's the PTA and you're, you're in, you're in control of what your kids are,

00:46:09.300 are learning. It's just, uh, you know, you don't have the time and you maybe don't have the expertise

00:46:14.180 to teach them, you know, uh, uh, derivatives and, and, and, and so, uh, or, or, or history or

00:46:22.180 whatever. So, so you, you, you outsource that to people who basically share your interests.

00:46:27.080 Um, and so Rufo is saying like, well, there's all kinds of people who could teach your kids that.

00:46:32.280 And, uh, you know, these, these, these tax monies ostensibly belong to you. They're for this

00:46:35.980 purpose of, of, uh, educating your children the way you want them educated. Right. So let's,

00:46:39.880 let's just take those monies and let you, uh, decide where you want them.

00:46:44.180 And he's daring the state to go like, actually, you're not allowed to do that because it's

00:46:49.500 really important to us to be able to tell your kids about butt stuff. And, um, and, and, and so,

00:46:57.000 uh, so that's, I mean, that's genius. And I think, um, another power flow that is being,

00:47:05.520 uh, left on the ground, so to speak, there's a massive amount of talent.

00:47:14.180 In the corporate, uh, employment system that is being, uh, either explicitly forced out

00:47:25.260 through like, Hey, we're just not hiring any white guys anymore or implicitly forced out

00:47:31.000 through, you got to get the jab and you got to wear the flare and you got to put your pronouns

00:47:35.640 and you got to do like, there's, there's a massive outflow of talent. Um, and I think

00:47:41.720 it was, uh, I think it was on your show, uh, uh, mold bug was saying, you know, I'd still

00:47:46.940 rather go to Harvard than, uh, than Lambda school. Um, but I think you were right to say,

00:47:54.880 um, there is an inflection point at which the people outside there are so high quality and

00:48:02.620 the people inside there are so mediocre, uh, that if you want anything meaningful accomplished,

00:48:08.720 you have to look outside and it would be good to be one of the people who was running the

00:48:15.180 institution that's, that's outside. Um, I think, I mean, uh, ultimately, um,

00:48:21.320 um, the, the capital that, that it's about owning your capital, right? Like on an individual level,

00:48:28.260 personal level, uh, I'm not thinking about like the big political system, but like,

00:48:32.060 um, and, and, you know, there's just endless debate on like right-wing Twitter about like,

00:48:37.560 should we all go be plumbers, uh, you know, or farmers or whatever. And I, I think that's a stupid 1.00

00:48:42.660 argument because nobody who shouldn't be a plumber is, is, is trying to be a plumber right now. 0.98

00:48:47.400 But, but, uh, but basically what a plumber has, what a homesteader has, what a software developer

00:48:55.580 has that like a project manager at Amazon does not have is ownership of their capital. Um, they own

00:49:03.680 the tools that allow them to do their job. They own their book of business, their customer base,

00:49:07.300 they get to decide, um, whether or not and how they make money. And that's immensely liberating.

00:49:13.900 And so, uh, I mean, my whole thing, the, the, the way that I'm trying to, uh, to, to, to capture

00:49:21.940 some of those power flows is I'm, I'm getting guys together to, to learn, uh, how to build those

00:49:27.520 kinds of businesses and, and, and, and be more sovereign in terms of their income so that they

00:49:32.400 can go, uh, they can send their wife home to raise the kids so that they can get their kids out of the 0.98

00:49:37.760 government schools so that they can move jurisdictions if they need to, uh, all of the

00:49:43.840 things that put pressure on, uh, these, these institutions that really that, that, that take

00:49:50.420 our compliance completely for granted.

00:49:53.920 Is there a name for this organization? Someone, you know, if they were interested in this

00:49:57.900 group, exit group.us. Yeah. Come check us out. It's, it's, uh, it's basically, um, it's fraternal

00:50:09.100 organization where we're working on both individual projects and group projects. Uh, some of the guys

00:50:13.880 are trying to start a shrimp farm, doing a literary competition. We're doing, uh, a, uh, um, we're doing

00:50:21.920 a code bootcamp. There's a bunch of different projects. Uh, we're launching a conference later

00:50:25.980 this year. Um, but like on the individual level, it's like meet people who can explain SEO to you,

00:50:34.160 explain marketing, explain web design, like get in touch with people who are like-minded, who,

00:50:39.160 who have answers to some of your questions about, uh, about starting a business or, or a side hustle

00:50:44.420 or whatever it is. So, um, so yeah, I mean, that's like, and, and, uh, is that the, um,

00:50:50.520 is that going to save America? Uh, maybe I, it's, but I'm trying to tend my little garden,

00:50:58.300 you know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to carve out my little slice. And, um, and ultimately what I see

00:51:05.400 happening is you get enough people who are, are sovereign in that respect. And again, freedom is

00:51:11.560 a question of what you want to do, right? Um, but, but, but sovereign enough to speak their minds.

00:51:17.340 And, and this is something that I talk about and that, that Kill Cullen talks about in his book

00:51:20.840 is the ability to absorb punishment and how important that is to the, um,

00:51:28.060 to the framing of yourself as the good guy and, and, and the other, the bad guy is the aggressor,

00:51:35.340 right? Is if you can, if you can take the first punch and that's, that's why the strong horse is so

00:51:41.260 powerful in like, in like, uh, Ukraine, right? Part of the reason that Russia is in the situation 0.81

00:51:47.140 they're in is that they really couldn't afford to take the first hit. Like they wouldn't survive

00:51:53.800 that. And, but, but the U S could, they could, they could let Ukraine kind of absorb that first

00:52:00.440 blow and then just pump, pump. I mean, just like they did with the Russians in world war II, 1.00

00:52:04.360 you know, let, let the Nazis get all the way to Stalingrad, but then there's just Bradley after

00:52:10.000 Bradley after like just, just tons of, of, uh, American material to, to win the war.

00:52:14.260 And that ability to, to, to absorb the, uh, the, the blitz, the initial attack, um, really changes

00:52:21.300 the framing. And so I want to create a world where there's lots of people who can absorb that

00:52:26.300 initial attack. Somebody, somebody, uh, was talking about libs of Tik TOK. Uh, it was some,

00:52:31.880 some journalist was like mad because, because, um, the libs of Tik TOK lady is now making all kinds 0.99

00:52:39.540 of money and, and, and very successful and much, much happier and better off than she was before.

00:52:43.980 And I was like, yeah, I want every one of those guys to have this like sick feeling in their gut,

00:52:48.240 this rock that's like, oh no, if I expose this person, uh, I might just make them like way happier

00:52:54.500 and like blow them up. And, and I, I want them to be like looking over their shoulder for that.

00:52:59.640 And, and so, uh, so yeah, the ability to, to, to, to absorb and metabolize punishment, um, is,

00:53:07.940 is really powerful as far as, as far as the, the optical channel, like if you're, if you're dealing

00:53:13.060 with hostile media, the more you can engineer a situation, you know, where you, uh, I mean,

00:53:19.620 that's what Trump did, right? He, he just metabolized hostile media attention all day long. That was,

00:53:23.820 that was his magic. That was his power. Yeah. It is really important to learn those strategies.

00:53:29.180 Like you said, you know, you're going to have a hostile media, you know, you're going to have

00:53:32.520 this lack of media top cover. So you need to develop your strategies with that in mind,

00:53:37.280 not only in mind, but you need to be judoing that, right? You need to be turning that against

00:53:42.000 your opponent and then using that to your advantage. So Rufo knows that just asking for the formalization

00:53:49.640 of what the school system already does hurts the school system. So just going to them and saying,

00:53:56.120 Hey, can you just admit, can we, can we just do the thing you're doing or can you admit what you

00:54:01.400 actually do? And just that simple thing is really damaging. It is, he doesn't have to do anything

00:54:08.160 and there's no escape. There's no, there's no way to spin it. Like it's, it's either they say,

00:54:12.820 no, you can't take care of your child and it's really important to teach them butt stuff, 1.00

00:54:17.000 like I said, or, or they have to say, yes, we will hand you this power flow.

00:54:22.020 There, there's only, there's only two, there's only two ways to do that unless they just do

00:54:26.840 billion dollars. Yeah. Right. And so, um, and so, uh, you know, Trump says, okay, you know, just,

00:54:34.500 yeah, just, just punch yourself out screaming at me so that I can just come back and embarrass you 0.92

00:54:39.980 with one quick jab, you know, and, and just, just collapse you. And so developing that on, 0.98

00:54:46.000 obviously those are, those are particular media tactics that are important for, for the,

00:54:49.340 for the macro game, but in the micro game, like you're saying, just having that situation where

00:54:55.180 people have avenues, they have mutual aid societies, they have fraternal orders, they have organizations

00:55:01.780 that are setting them up for success. They're networking, they're building alternatives when

00:55:06.760 the media comes for them, when, you know, the, the, those weapons that have replaced the F-15

00:55:12.060 are being turned on them, they can go, you know, okay. And then they can just go back to making

00:55:19.980 way more money and maybe have their life improved. And all of a sudden the, that weapon that was so

00:55:24.640 essential to your enemy is now sitting there useless in their hand or making, or they're hesitating to

00:55:31.740 pull the trigger because it doesn't have a reliable effect anymore. And they might just, they might just

00:55:36.580 making raise someone's power level by freeing them from the shackles of the system. So I think that is

00:55:42.980 really important. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's incredible. The, the effect that, I mean, our

00:55:52.500 whole, our whole, uh, HR secret police situation is created by a, an incentive structure generated by like

00:56:02.740 a handful of lawsuits, right? It only took a handful of lawsuits for every, every corporation in America

00:56:10.540 to understand like, oh, I'd better have an internal investigatory service to like, to like look for

00:56:19.360 crime thinkers and root them out before I get a lawsuit. And, and it was, it was this very

00:56:26.000 straightforward thing to, to generate this like multi-billion dollar, uh, like, like what a,

00:56:33.200 what a flex that the state, the state could get them to hire their, like on their own dime, hire

00:56:38.020 their own political officers. And, uh, and it was just a handful of, um, bad consequences to those

00:56:47.520 corporations. And, and that system now has those corporations hamstrung there. They are, they are,

00:56:53.900 they are absorbing enormous amounts of cost to keep up with all that nonsense. They're making

00:56:59.760 terrible hiring decisions that they know are terrible and they're making bad investments.

00:57:04.500 They know are bad investments because of this incentive structure. And so anybody who's operating

00:57:08.920 outside of that system, you only have to be like halfway competent to compete. Um, you know,

00:57:15.640 obviously they have the benefit of like economies of scale in a lot of these industries, but there's like

00:57:19.520 so much outside the system that, uh, if you're, if you're light and quick, uh, you can give them a

00:57:27.280 run for their money. I think that's especially true in creative fields. I mean, like, I don't,

00:57:32.360 I don't think it's a, I think it's like a policy choice that Hollywood's as bad as it is. Um,

00:57:38.480 I think that's, that's rooted in like, it's like some bad hiring practices that are,

00:57:42.320 that are sort of mandatory. And, and, you know, our guys like, you know, I think of like passage

00:57:48.940 prize Loma is running that, that literary competition. And he, he posted a link about

00:57:53.020 like how Pulitzer winners on average, they sell like 300 books. If you won the Pulitzer, which used

00:57:58.400 to be this enormous, huge deal. It's like these, these institutions are rotting from the inside.

00:58:04.320 And, and, uh, you know, um, I know, I know mold bugs like expecting a thousand year bug man, right?

00:58:11.300 I'm really not. I, I think, uh, I, I think we're already seeing a lot of, a lot of holes that you

00:58:19.300 could cracks in the concrete that something could grow through. And, uh, that doesn't mean that it's

00:58:25.760 going to be like storming the Bastille and like the day is saved, but I think there's going to be lots

00:58:31.120 of maneuver, uh, in the next, in the next 10 or 20 years. And, and so, so yeah, that's, that's,

00:58:39.400 that's where I want to be. And that's where I want my guys to be is, uh, in those spaces where we are

00:58:44.380 not bound by the rules that these people are bound by and, and people see us, they watch us operate

00:58:51.480 outside that framework safely. And then you've got, and then you've got your bubble. Like we talked

00:58:56.980 about your, your, your safe zone where, uh, it's, it's possible to operate and, uh, and we don't

00:59:03.740 have to do anything like that's, that's where the violence comes in, right? Like, uh, uh, how are you

00:59:07.720 going to make the world outside your bubble dangerous? You don't have to do anything to

00:59:10.480 make that outside the bubble dangerous. Cause it's already dangerous. It's already chaotic and screwed

00:59:13.920 up. And if you just create a political formula, go ahead. Sorry. Yeah. I was just going to say the

00:59:19.240 political formula of the state is almost required to make it unsafe for you specifically. So yeah,

00:59:25.040 it's already doing that job. Yeah. Right. And that's, and that's, that's the beauty of it is

00:59:28.940 we get to be unambiguous good guys. We don't have to hurt anybody. Um, and, and I, I honestly

00:59:34.900 think that, uh, I honestly think that, that these like, these like billions must die guys, um,

00:59:42.900 are, are making both a moral and a political error that like you, you can be the good guy. You,

00:59:52.260 you, you, you don't have to hurt anybody. Well, you know, this is, you know, South Africa,

00:59:57.180 you know, I've had Ernst, uh, on conscious caracal, um, uh, Ernst Van Zell, he's been on

01:00:03.600 from Afroforum and what are they doing down there? They're, they're building universities.

01:00:08.400 They're, they're creating alternative power plants. They're making sure that neighborhoods

01:00:13.020 have water and they fill potholes because the governments just can't do it anymore. They don't

01:00:17.960 have the capacity. And so as you know, rolling brownouts turn into just complete blackouts

01:00:23.560 and people have an inability to just get safe access to utilities and stuff that, you know,

01:00:30.360 they, they look like the heroes because they are, they're doing the work that no one else

01:00:35.760 is doing. They're planting the trees so other people can sit under them, you know? And, and,

01:00:40.960 uh, like you said, I, I, I am, I am also skeptical of, uh, of mold, uh, mold bugs, a thousand year

01:00:49.660 bug man, right? I, I really, he's got this idea that the only way any of this gets solved it like,

01:00:55.600 like blue state, like blue state, uh, you know, tech CEOs will reign in perpetuity. So the only,

01:01:02.860 the only way they can possibly, uh, have that, have any kind of good, uh, thing happen in the United

01:01:08.620 States if there's some kind of revival among blue state aristocrats. Uh, but I just don't think

01:01:13.080 that's true. Like, I, I, I don't think that in many ways they're capable of it. And I don't think

01:01:17.460 that they're the only people capable of, of making positive change. Um, no, I, yeah, it's, it's,

01:01:23.960 I think he has a lot of faith in the capacity of the system to select for excellence.

01:01:31.680 And I think he's probably right. Uh, but like his information is a little old. Like I, I think,

01:01:39.080 I think, uh, we used to be pretty good at selecting for excellence. And so there's a lot of, uh, there's

01:01:44.280 a lot of ruin in a nation, right? And there's a lot of still really excellent people in the elite,

01:01:48.520 but there's also a lot of really excellent people who are not. And, uh, to some extent,

01:01:53.560 because they've always been hard to find, but to some extent, because they're getting,

01:01:57.980 uh, the system is deliberately making itself worse at identifying them and elevating them.

01:02:03.460 Yeah. Um, but I do, I, I love what he says about seduction and revival. I, I, I do think

01:02:12.860 that, uh, when change comes, it's going to be a beautiful thing. It's going to be something that,

01:02:18.180 that, that is, uh, is joyous and, and, and beautiful. And I think, um,

01:02:23.440 um, he's, he's, he's, he's right about, uh, our situation, like, like the, the South Africa,

01:02:34.560 you know, if, if those guys took this really, um, aggressive, hostile tack to, I mean, you know,

01:02:43.260 the South African government's Marxist and hideously corrupt. And if they took this like really

01:02:50.840 aggressive, like justifiable tack against that state, um, it would go worse for them than if 0.99

01:02:58.360 they were to just build shit and make things better. And, uh, I, I, uh, yeah, I, I think that, 0.99

01:03:08.640 I think that has to be the approach and it's more fun anyway. Yeah. Well, we are going to pivot over

01:03:14.840 to the questions of the people here real quick, but before we do, can you tell everybody where to

01:03:18.920 find your stuff, exit all that? Yeah. So, uh, uh, it's extra dead JCB.substack.com is the

01:03:25.380 sub stack exit group.us is for the group. Um, there's exit group.substack.com if you want to do

01:03:30.520 that. And then, um, extra dead JCB on Twitter. Awesome. And let's go to creeper weirdo here for

01:03:37.400 $5. People get interested in politics because politics becomes interested in them. So like

01:03:43.320 gamer gate. Yeah, absolutely. Actually I have an old video, uh, that specifically says that,

01:03:48.740 uh, gamer gate was, uh, kind of the instance that revealed the total state for a lot of people,

01:03:53.840 a lot of people, uh, who otherwise would have been completely apolitical, wouldn't have thought

01:03:57.920 about this. It wouldn't have mattered to them as silly as it might seem in some ways. Um, 0.85

01:04:03.200 gamer gate was the thing that opened their eyes because if this theoretically, totally trivial

01:04:07.480 thing had to be completely permeated with state propaganda, then what else had to be completely

01:04:14.040 delusioned state propaganda. And once you've seen it, once you've noticed, it's hard to take that

01:04:18.720 blue pill again. It's like, you know, and the accusation of like, uh, the sort of basement

01:04:24.520 dwelling chud, right. It's like, like lean into that. Like, like, okay. Yeah. I'm, I'm an unemployed. 0.97

01:04:33.460 I live with my mom. I sit in my basement and you can't leave that guy alone. Like, what do you got to

01:04:39.900 do to be left alone? I just wanted a game. Yeah. I just, just wanted to play video games.

01:04:45.400 All right. Uh, creeper, we go again for $2. Hey, groomer, leave those kids alone. Yep. It's,

01:04:51.560 it's not rocket science. All right. So let's see here. No, we got a few more,

01:04:58.600 uh, super Joe's midlife crisis for $10. Thank you very much. The problem is that the total state

01:05:06.140 wipes out all voluntary legal attempts to exit, uh, skip homesteading, uh, go straight to mafia

01:05:12.680 triad, Yakuza, Omerita. So you're right that eventually they, they try to do this, right?

01:05:19.680 This is a slow thing, but as Bennett pointed out every time they do, uh, their power gets more brittle

01:05:26.300 and it becomes more obvious. And, uh, if you, if you get rid of every option to exit, if you get rid of

01:05:34.500 every option to stabilize and create, create that equilibrium, then as Bennett pointed out, people

01:05:40.600 will be looking for something else. Right. So, so the very act of trying to shut all the exits down

01:05:46.280 creates the desire to find power flows outside. And that's, that is where, that is where mafias come 1.00

01:05:52.580 from. I mean, that's like, they, they do, they, they, they grow in response to the inability or

01:05:59.120 unwillingness of the state to create security. Uh, and I would say, you know, everybody's got to

01:06:05.360 manage their own business, but like, don't, don't show up early to that party. That's all I can tell

01:06:09.580 you. It seems like a bad, bad move. Don't be the first one on that. Yeah. Uh, Cooper weirdo for

01:06:15.640 $5. Even if the world would end tomorrow, I would still plant a tree today. Let's see.

01:06:23.580 And then Maddie ice here for $10, uh, building alternatives is the way to go, but it seems to

01:06:30.180 me that they will come after your successful institution doing its own thing shows a failure

01:06:34.600 of the ruler. Your success equals legitimacy. Yeah. I hear this a lot. I've asked, uh, I've asked

01:06:39.560 Ernst this when he's been on, um, and, and we'll definitely get your response, but his response is

01:06:44.500 like, okay, so we just give up. We just pack it in. We just call it a day. Like, are you going to be

01:06:49.660 the last generation? Are you the last man because you're so weak that you're, you're scared? Like,

01:06:54.160 yes, of course, there's a possibility that the state will come for you, but if you don't do

01:06:58.500 something, there will never be an alternative if people need it. If the state is unable to,

01:07:04.320 you know, to do its job. I, you can make their lies ridiculous. You really can like, they'll, 0.98

01:07:12.600 they'll lie about you. Sure. But you can make those lies silly and, and you can, you can,

01:07:17.400 uh, you can make their propaganda job harder. And I would say, yeah, fundamentally any, anybody

01:07:29.340 who, who, who comes into my replies on Twitter and is like, you know, give up cope what like

01:07:36.560 they love cope. It's like, it's like, all right, then go crawl in a hole, man. Like, get out 0.89

01:07:41.500 of my, like, why is it so important to you that like nobody else tries anything? Like

01:07:48.280 why, like, why do you, like, if, if it doesn't matter, then it doesn't matter. Get out of my 0.78

01:07:53.120 mentions.

01:07:55.140 I used a cope in an article today and, uh, the, the blaze was like, we don't know what

01:08:01.220 that means. I was like, yeah, I guess that is a little online, isn't it? I should probably

01:08:08.000 use a different, different phrasing there. Um, but, uh, KG there for $5. Uh, thanks guys.

01:08:16.360 Great chat. Well, thank you, KG. Really appreciate it. Really appreciate everybody, uh, who came by

01:08:21.480 everybody who donated. Your questions are always great. A lot of fun. Um, great talking to, uh,

01:08:27.620 to Bennett, of course, as well. I think this is a really excellent piece. You should go check out

01:08:31.600 the original. It's a hundred percent worth listening to, uh, all the way through to, to, to make sure you get

01:08:37.760 all the nuances, uh, make sure you're checking out stuff, make sure you're checking out exit. Uh, so,

01:08:42.840 you know, you, you can't complain about, uh, not being able to do something if you're not taking those,

01:08:48.020 those really basic step guys, steps guys. So make sure that you're looking into options like that.

01:08:53.960 Anything else you wanted to plug or anything we should be looking for anything like that before we go,

01:08:58.680 Mr. Bennett? Uh, well, there's also the exit podcast where I interview some of the guys in the

01:09:03.640 group. I interview, uh, I posted this episode on there as well. Um, it's pretty easy to find on

01:09:09.500 Spotify. I don't know if you want to put in the show notes or something, but, uh, but yeah, that's,

01:09:12.760 that's the other one. Sure. Absolutely. All right, guys. Well, again, if you, it's your first time

01:09:17.200 here, of course, make sure to subscribe. If you haven't gone ahead and joined the podcast,

01:09:22.380 you can do so at any of your major podcast platforms, Apple, Spotify, all that stuff.

01:09:26.900 If you do make sure you leave a rating and a review, uh, should have a new piece up on the

01:09:32.020 blaze, probably like right now ish. So you can go check that out. If you want talking about the

01:09:37.540 lab leak theory, the COVID ratchet and all that stuff that has been coming out recently this week.

01:09:43.180 Thanks for coming by guys. And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - March 02, 2023

How Non-State Actors Capture Power ｜ Guest： Bennett's Phylactery ｜ 3⧸2⧸23

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