Mark Granza is the founder and editor of the excellent publication IM1776. He's also a writer, blogger, and podcaster. In this episode, we talk about anonymity, Jordan Peterson, and why it's important to have a voice.
00:02:45.300And, you know, by then I spent like basically that previous like couple of years like going down a rabbit hole and basically becoming like very disillusioned with the conservative movement and not encountering any sort of like meaningful resistance to what I was increasingly perceiving as some, you know, like as a threatening and very tyrannical, you know, form of like culture and by the left, essentially.
00:03:14.740And I wasn't encountering anything in the mainstream that was like meaningfully opposing or like evenly accurately describing the nature of what was happening around us.
00:03:26.800So I got on Twitter and I started coming across a lot of like, you know, for the purpose of the conversation as well, since we're going to talk about anonymity.
00:03:36.680I love these people that are anonymous and or like dissident, right?
00:03:40.420They tend to tend to be like post-liberal in the beginning, people that were just starting to criticize more accurately the essentially what the nature of the corruption that we were facing was about.
00:03:51.480And so by 2020, obviously the lockdowns began and I was like already like very much on the fringes of the acceptable discourse, you know, like bordering on the very unacceptable one.
00:04:05.140And then also like the riots in the summer of 2020, the Floyd riots, and I got more and more online, obviously because of the lockdowns, I became like basically a recluse and I was just like online all the time.
00:04:20.020And I had this blog where I was completely neglecting because also like I'm not like this like super insightful writer or anything, but I built this website for some reason.
00:04:31.960I had this blog and I thought to myself, if I'm like currently unable really to like coming up with anything really insightful myself or like potentially, you know, fruitful for the conversation, I was like, well, what am I going to do with this website?
00:04:48.960And that's when I got the idea basically of like essentially giving it to other people.
00:04:52.320And so I literally just got an idea like that while talking with a friend on Facebook.
00:04:56.860And I said, I'm just going to launch a website.
00:04:58.680I started reaching out to some of these people that basically this network of, you know, anonymous account and so somewhere anonymous, I'm not.
00:05:07.160I was going to launch a website that basically like two weeks later, I started in the website.
00:05:11.540But yeah, that was basically not nothing really in my background or my really upbringing that would ever suggest that I would find myself in this position.
00:05:45.940I'm not going to make video content, that kind of thing.
00:05:48.820You know, they think that the only thing that you can do is commentate.
00:05:52.920But actually, there are things that are far more important.
00:05:55.880Guys like you that are bringing people together, providing a platform, organizing.
00:06:00.400You know, you say, okay, me, myself, I'm not going to write a bunch of these big pieces.
00:06:04.000But you're facilitating something that otherwise wouldn't exist.
00:06:07.520That's the great thing, I think, about IM1776 is it has this ability to bring top tier big names like, you know, Michael Anton or people like that on board.
00:06:19.100But then you also have guys like Zero HP Lovecraft, you know, showing up on the same publication.
00:06:23.880And that's what gives it – that's why it's always introducing something very interesting to the public and a face that I think otherwise wouldn't be available.
00:06:33.720And, you know, like you said, even though you don't have a background in something like that, facilitating that meeting space, creating that is super important for what's going on right now.
00:06:43.980And also, I would say, like, I totally agree.
00:06:46.700And also, for me personally, it was like a moment where I essentially, you know, I had the sufficient humility that I never really had in my life.
00:06:57.940And I paid a high price for that, actually, in my early 20s.
00:07:01.080But essentially, I was going like down essentially a self-discovery path.
00:07:08.980You know, like I had to really learn in the hard way that I wasn't going to be – that I wasn't exactly, you know, going to be neither an intellectual or like a public figure in the sense that, you know, the solution was going to come from me.
00:07:22.340And once I found the humility to understand that, you know, that whatever I was going to do to improve the situation wasn't going to be – I was going to be at the forefront the way that I imagined I would have been, that's where basically the opportunity, like the idea came up.
00:07:34.440I mean, so, yeah, I mean, there are many ways, you know, that we don't just need, like, people that, you know, that have the intellect to understand exactly what's going on or maybe, like, the educational background or the, you know, the skills as a writer, which doesn't mean that I cannot write or, you know, I don't understand ideas.
00:07:52.880But, you know, if you tend to be one of those people and if you tend to think that, you know, you can't contribute any other way by commenting yourself, it's not true.
00:08:03.220You can create, you know, you can create networks, you can facilitate, as you put it, you know, I guess outlets where people can find what you think is true,
00:08:14.180which is really what I was, really my only, I guess, maybe if not skill or definitely my only constant, I would say, like, the only thing that I was looking at at the moment,
00:08:26.340like, I came to the point where, like, all of the certain things that I thought was of the way they understood society and the way they understood the political landscape
00:08:37.320and I would say the cultural landscape as well, they really, like, collapsed, you know, it was more like a, like, in the making for years, but, like, 2020 and, like, 20, I would say, period between 2017 and 2020,
00:08:47.360everything, like, that I thought was true, not just about me, but about society and everything, really, like, collapsed.
00:08:53.380And so I was, like, I was really open-minded. The only thing I was looking for was truth.
00:08:57.340So if you're the kind of person who can, you know, have the, I would say, some degree of honesty of pursuing the truth and pursuing what you think is good
00:09:05.620and there are many things that you can do. Yeah.
00:09:12.060Yeah, no, I think that's really essential because, like, I think so many of us have that backstory, right, where we were looking at things and they didn't seem right
00:09:20.200and over time they were wearing away, but then, like you, I hit that 2020 mark and that's when my eyes really were opened
00:09:27.000and then we're all sitting here trying to figure out, okay, well, what's next? Like, what can we do about it?
00:09:31.200What meaningful thing can we do to understand or take action, that kind of thing?
00:09:36.440And so many people, I think, are just kind of sitting around on the sidelines waiting for someone to kind of, like,
00:09:41.560pick them up off the bench and say, hey, buddy, you're going to do this or whatever, but instead, you're taking action, right?
00:09:47.040And even if you don't know what that action is going to be and even if it isn't, maybe in the original avenue you want it to be,
00:09:53.360you can still make a difference by just getting in there.
00:09:56.520You never know what, you know, I know so many people in this space now who are, you know, starting conferences
00:10:01.920and creating networks so people can find jobs if they get canceled and just doing all kinds of work
00:10:08.040that's really essential for people to kind of survive in this space through what we're going through.
00:10:14.480And it's not all just, you know, making videos and writing essays or whatever.
00:10:18.760And so it's really great to hear that, you know, people like yourself are just picking up that ball and doing really important work.
00:10:25.280So let's go ahead and get to the actual topic here.
00:10:28.300So Jordan Peterson has a couple times gone after anonymity on the Internet.
00:10:35.340And I think there's a lot of reasons why.
00:10:38.340I think maybe, you know, understanding this guy is a public figure.
00:10:41.700He probably gets a lot of hate on a regular basis.
00:10:45.320You can kind of understand why you would kind of get fed up with this thing.
00:10:49.000But he comes at people really harsh, right?
00:10:52.540He's not just saying, hey, you should have the courage to post your name or stuff on this kind of thing.
00:10:56.700He really goes at people who calls them trolls and demons, you know, all kinds of stuff.
00:11:03.660And it talks about how they have dark, you know, triad personalities and they're psychopaths and that kind of thing.
00:11:09.240And I thought you were the right person to talk about this because, again, one of the things that makes your publication different and interesting is so many anonymous people.
00:11:20.280In fact, I don't think it's even the majority of who you publish.
00:11:22.540I looked it up before joining the stream.
00:11:24.440It's like 20 to 25, 20 to 30 percent of the offer that we publish are publishing with a pseudony.
00:11:30.320Yeah, and so it's not the dominant thing of what you do, but it is a unique place that gives an outlet to some of the most interesting thinkers online right now who otherwise wouldn't be able to speak due to anonymity.
00:11:45.780So since you're someone who gives a platform, I was hoping you could kind of open up with just what is valuable about anonymity?
00:11:54.200How does it or why does it create interesting thinkers in a time like ours?
00:12:02.080I would say that actually I would start by I think there's a pretty meaningful distinction to be made that I don't think is made quite often enough between anonymous and pseudonymous accounts.
00:12:12.160Like technically, I think like what Peterson is doing when he's going after the, I mean, letting aside the fact that I think is mostly like, as I pointed out before, I think he's mostly attacking anonymous account because it's essentially like attempting to keep promoting himself.
00:12:30.800It's essentially gatekeeping as it was like, you guys were talking about the previous term that I listened to and it's gatekeeping and also attempting to promote himself as still like at the avant-garde of the countercultural and the most radical form of dissent possible when it really is like it's mostly expressing views that have become pretty mainstream and pretty widely accepted.
00:12:59.500And so to some degree, I think his attack is motivated by this desire to essentially gatekeep and promote himself and not being willing to recognize that if he really wants to be still at the avant-garde of the most meaningful form of dissent, he would have to really start changing some of his opinions and maybe like making it a little bit more radical than he's not willing, more than he's willing to do.
00:13:28.880But I think like when it comes to like anonymous account, really, I was looking at this lecture today about like, you know, essentially like breaking down the meaning of what is a name, really.
00:13:39.760And he was talking about anonymous and pseudonymous account.
00:13:42.160Like really what most of like these people that we defend when we talk about the anonymous, like the anonymous, right, they tend to be pseudonymous as opposed to anonymous because the technical definition of anonymous is somebody that does not have a name.
00:13:54.720So let's say that you put something out there and you just like don't put any name and we just like put like a random name and it's not associated with anything that you ever published before and it's never going to be associated with anything that you're going to publish.
00:14:07.160It's completely different from someone that has built some kind of identity around like a pseudonym.
00:14:13.080And this might sound like just like semantic, but it's actually a meaningful distinction because essentially the main critique that people, that someone like Peterson has, I understand, is that there's no accountability whatsoever for what you say.
00:14:25.340And that's not really true for like pseudonymous account because like they, there might not be accountability from like a legal perspective because they can't, there's obviously like a layer of safety when it comes to like potential repercussion from the state or even like, you know, getting canceled the way you understand, but getting canceled, like fired or having some kind of like financial repercussion.
00:14:50.840But, but, but it still doesn't mean that there's no, there's no, there's no any form of repercussion.
00:14:55.760Like you're still like, if you're, if you say something that is outright down, but if it's stupid or, or incorrect or immoral or just like cringe or whatever, and you get, you know, criticized for it.
00:15:06.180And you're essentially to the point that let's say you have to delete your own account.
00:15:09.400I mean, that's still a form of repercussion because like you, you can't just like, unless you're like an outright, like a textbook sociopath, you can just like create a new identity and just start starting over.
00:15:19.000Like you're like, but people are going to, so supposedly you're going to be interacting with the same people, right?
00:15:23.620You're going to want to interact with the same account, the same sphere that you were belonging to.
00:15:27.880And so I think it's a meaningful distinction because the, the, the main critique that people, these people have is essentially Peterson have is that there's no accountability and there's no essentially incentive for people to behave in a way that is productive for the discussion.
00:15:42.580And it's still like socially, you know, decent and not like being like an outright troll or a psychopath or like, I don't know what he calls them.
00:16:05.820We haven't, I don't really think we really like publish like an outright anonymous account.
00:16:09.240Like someone that just like, I guess it was like a whistleblower or someone like, someone like that could be like an anonymous account.
00:16:14.680It just like puts the information out there.
00:16:16.720We haven't really published any anonymous account.
00:16:18.180Most of the people, most of these accounts, they obviously have this layer of security that you can't really trace them to like a, like a real life.
00:16:26.960And by that would mean like a legal name or like a, like a, like a in real life person.
00:16:31.460But they still have some kind of like, if people want to double check, if people want to check what they, what they said before, what it wrote before and get some kind of like idea of these people are, there is some kind of like available personality online that you can, that you can hold them accountable to some degree.
00:16:45.740So, yeah, that, that would be like my, my, my, my starting point for this, for this particular debate.
00:16:53.560As to the value of like dissonant, like anonymous, I guess it was a pseudonymous account.
00:16:59.140It's like, I mean, it's pretty obvious.
00:17:01.840I mean, the, the main, the main argument in favor of anonymity is basically that, you know, these people tend to be less constrained and less worried about what other might, people might think of them either because they're not necessarily concerned about gaining like mainstream respectability or because like they obviously don't, they're not accountable to the same degree.
00:17:24.160So they, they tend to be more truthful.
00:17:26.160They tend to express their opinion more clearly.
00:17:28.540They tend to be, express the real opinion, I guess you can say, to the degree that they felt real to them than, than like a, like a person writing on his own, his own name would.
00:17:39.380And yeah, I mean, I've got, I've got that experience with, like we publish a few articles, like a few that comes to mind, for instance, like the, you know, Schwab, this is a kind that goes by Schwab that published like an article on MKUltra.
00:17:51.660That's not the kind of article that you, that you would easily get out of someone who published on this, on this, on this real name.
00:17:59.160Maybe now, yes, because like, it seems like even MKUltra is being kind of like mainstream, you know, Tucker Carlson is talking about it.
00:18:05.420Even like someone like corporate medicine, as well as this article was a critique, essentially the, the cathedral, but like focus on the, on the, on the medical industry and the, the healthcare industry by this actually practicing physician.
00:18:19.460And, and, and, and essentially she would have published, she used to go by Paracelsus.
00:18:24.480If she would have published on her real name, I mean, she would get instantly fired.
00:18:28.440And, and, and so there's, there's obviously like a value to, to, and, and, and a good reason for people to be, to publish anonymous and obviously a value for, for people in our position to find that kind of content that otherwise wouldn't be able, wouldn't be easy to find.
00:18:43.640But, when I, I, going and asking people that write on their, their own name.
00:18:49.260So I would say those are the obvious arguments in favor.
00:18:52.640When does fast grocery delivery through Instacart matter most?
00:18:56.620When your famous grainy mustard potato salad isn't so famous without the grainy mustard.
00:19:01.460When the barbecue's lit, but there's nothing to grill.
00:19:04.140When the in-laws decide that, actually, they will stay for dinner.
00:19:07.400Yeah, no, I think that distinction between anonymous and pseudonymous is really important because that, that's a really good point that the idea of these people not being able to be held accountable is only true in the sense that you can't publicly destroy them, right?
00:19:36.820If there are people who want to build a reputation, who want to have credibility, you have to consistently present something that matters, right?
00:19:48.620You can't just go out there and say anything.
00:19:50.520You can't just go out there and throw bombs all the time because if you do, no one's going to take you seriously.
00:19:55.960And most of the guys that are writing, say, for IM 1776 in that way are people who have already built up a certain level of public trust.
00:20:03.780That's why they've been asked to, to write in the first place.
00:20:06.900So it's, it's not really, it's not true anonymity in the sense of, oh, there's just no, no one will ever know who posted this.
00:20:13.520There'll be no chain of thought or context to what happened here.
00:20:16.980Someone can easily destroy their reputation.
00:20:18.940And I've seen many people easily destroy their reputation as anons.
00:20:58.820People might keep you from doing banking now, right?
00:21:02.280This is something we see, like people unable to buy or sell things, you know, because they, they have the wrong opinions publicly, right?
00:21:10.100And so I think when a guy like Peterson looks at this, I think the reason he approaches it the way he does is his own personal experience, right?
00:21:19.660Because Peterson did go through a kind of cancellation, right?
00:21:24.600He was very publicly attacked for what he said.
00:22:25.000Because I actually, I have this, I mean, I obviously can only speculate to his real reason for doing this.
00:22:33.280And with this, I don't mean to say that it wasn't brave at all.
00:22:35.740But I actually remember coming across Peterson before, I wasn't exactly following, but I remember coming across him before even the whole like gender pronoun bill came up and he became vocal against it.
00:22:49.860He was actually already quite popular online.
00:22:52.860Like he was posting all of his lecture online, already building the following, he had a Patreon account, so a pretty dedicated following.
00:23:00.420And obviously like Peterson is not exactly like, obviously he's not a stupid man and he must understand the dynamics of like cultural and political discourse to some extent.
00:23:11.420And he might have, he definitely probably didn't predict it that he was going to explode this big.
00:23:15.980Because I mean, like look at him now, it's basically probably the most, is he like the most famous guy in like cultural, political discourse ever?
00:23:24.240I mean, I was like, I saw him like, you know, posting a picture with like Cristiano Ronaldo, which is like the most famous man on the planet, basically.
00:23:32.120And he was, but you know, he had some kind of like safety net.
00:23:35.460And yet, and I think like, while it was still to some degree, obviously brave, because you're still like putting your, your real, your opinion out there and you're opposing like the main cultural force of society.
00:23:47.720And actually speaking truth to power to some degree, although he doesn't really like get that close to the truth as we might want it, want him to be, but it was still brave.
00:23:57.860But I think I've actually was, it was, it was, I, I think it was partly called like a, more like a calculated, calculated risk.
00:24:07.160I think he knew that he was, there was a pretty good chance that did the, whatever he did, it was going to increase his popularity and, and potentially even like, you know, elevating to the status of like an intellectual or more like a, like a counter, counter cultural figure.
00:24:24.260I'm not, again, I don't mean to like, I don't mean to obviously say that, you know, it wasn't brave at all.
00:24:31.660It was the opposite of bravery, like cowardice or was like complete grifting or like, or anything, but I think like, you know, you may ask most people today and the most people, the way they perceive Peterson before he became famous.
00:24:43.660It was like, most people was like this unknown professors, you know, it just like out of nowhere, it just decided to just speak the truth.
00:24:50.680And this, I think is like, this is, I think also like this part, part of like a related problem and most of people argue against anonymity or like Saddam's account.
00:25:02.660They tend to actually make the argument that, that, you know, essentially what they're doing, and most of these people are obviously people that are already like engaged, like as normally people don't bother, like, you know, participating in like anonymous versus real life debate.
00:25:15.840Most of these people are cultural, political commentators, journalists, maybe essays, or like people that are engaged, like in the content economy to some degree that we are also in.
00:25:26.560And they sort of like make the argument, essentially what they're doing is speaking the truth to power to the same degree that let's say some like normie or like very like oppressed, lonely guy in some, some, it's like that guy from the Arab Spring, right.
00:25:42.120You know, you know, that they basically set himself on fire, you know, they, they sort of, they sort of like, they sort of like conflate what they're doing with like some just guy who just want to speak the truth and potentially the risk is all career and life even to, to essentially criticize the regime.
00:26:00.320I mean, there's not entirely what we're doing.
00:26:01.580I mean, I, I, I basically use my real name and I'm not just like, I'm not just like attempting to speak the truth to some degree is like where we're gaining and we're so like profiting, not necessarily financially, but so like we're getting rewarded for our opposition to some degree.
00:26:22.060Because like your, you get elevated to your status in the, I guess, commentary industry or the like publishing industry gets elevated, the more truthful you are and the more courageous you are.
00:26:33.080So there's like a, there's like a return on, on your, on the risk that you take, there's actually a pretty good return, you know?
00:26:39.800And so, and, and, and I think like Peterson was, I think Peterson was pretty much aware that, uh, he pretty, he knew or pretty much easily could predict that this was not going to be like the end of his career.
00:26:53.720So it wasn't like entirely like 100% prey.
00:26:56.140There was also, in my opinion, some form of like calculated risk that he took and, and probably even like for his own sake, like probably was just like sick of being in academia.
00:27:05.420Because like academia is a sick place.
00:27:07.980And so he probably thought that it was actually a pretty good opportunity to, you know, get some fresh air to sort, so to speak and, you know, uh, explore new form of, uh, venture and, and, and, um, for himself.
00:27:21.160So, yeah, I think this is actually, I think this is the crux of the, of the whole like anonymous versus like a real life, real life debate, uh, things like we're all engaged to some degree in this like content.
00:27:34.360Economy making essentially the only real difference is that anonymous account tend to be, uh, they tend to be more, uh, free to express opinions, like dissenting opinions and transgressive opinions that would otherwise, uh, get them in trouble if it would be published on the real name.
00:27:53.360And the downside of that is obviously that there is true.
00:27:55.820There is some truth to the fact that this is sort of like encourages or like incentivizes, or at least facilitate some kind of like, uh, form of like antisocial or maybe just like, you know, uh, childish behavior or, or, uh, not careful enough behavior.
00:28:12.100And on the other side of the debate is obviously the, the, the, the, the opposite way.
00:28:15.720I mean, obviously they're more, uh, uh, punishment only of your name makes you more cautious and makes you more, um, I guess, responsible or at least incentivizes you to be more responsible.
00:28:27.120But the obvious downside of that is that you always have to be policing yourself, you know, not always, right.
00:28:33.000Uh, the, I like to think that I, that I don't police myself in any way, but that's not entirely true.
00:28:39.800I don't, I police myself also because like former, as a former like tactic, because maybe I just don't think that saying out loud this, this thing right now would have any benefit.
00:28:49.320And we'll probably, you know, put maybe the people that write for us under, you know, attack, you know, for a guilt by association and whatnot.
00:28:55.960But these, these, I think are the, the, the upside and the downside of both running on your, your real name and pseudonymously.
00:29:05.300You know, you're right that, you know, Peterson probably understood that, you know, he wasn't just bumbling into this thing and happened to have arrived at this moment.
00:29:13.660I think there's probably some truth to that, but I think that the, you know, like you said, we're all, we're all limiting ourselves to some extent, right?
00:29:22.900Like we're always checking what we should say.
00:29:26.180Like that it's, it's healthy to know the limitations around you.
00:29:30.180Like you're not a complete, you know, sociopath.
00:29:32.360Like you notice the people around you, you care about what they're going to think about you, you care about what they're going to say, you care about the ramifications of what you speak.
00:29:40.560But the thing is that doesn't just disappear if you're doing it anonymously, you know, or, or synonymously, like you said, you know, those, those, uh, synonymous accounts still because, well, first they have, you know, they have to work a lot harder sometimes because they have no connection to real life.
00:29:59.580They can't like put a pretty picture up on their account.
00:30:02.660So they have to kind of earn everything, every bit of their reputation because they don't have a fancy title or a background or a family name or, uh, you know, good looks or something to propel them.
00:30:14.560They have to get there solely based on their ability to kind of post or, or write.
00:30:19.460And so there, there's that aspect of it, but that means they also have to like, be careful about what they say as well, because like their audience has expectations just because your interactions are online.
00:30:30.660Doesn't mean that they're without consequence, even if you know, your real name isn't out there, right?
00:30:37.800Like the, the people who are reading your stuff, who are listening, who are understanding, if you want to gain their attention and have respectability and credibility and, and something to say, you have to use discretion in what you say and how you communicate.
00:30:52.580Right. And this is especially true in a, true in a place like Twitter, which to this day is still like literally just banned Steve Saylor yesterday.
00:31:01.700You know, so it's not like even under Elon, you can just say whatever.
00:31:06.360And Steve Saylor wasn't saying anything he hasn't been saying for ever on that site.
00:31:11.420And all of a sudden he posts something and he's banned out of, out of nowhere.
00:31:15.280So it's not like anonymous accounts don't have to be careful what they say or how they phrase things.
00:31:20.800I mean, there are just straight up flame accounts, right?
00:31:24.120Like you can just go in and post all kinds of crazy stuff or scream at a celebrity or something and then just jihad your account and boom, it's gone.
00:31:54.000There's, there are, I mean, there are actually anonymous accounts that behave like that.
00:31:58.300I mean, I think actually what is, if I remember correctly, what basically triggered at least this last attack, which is done before against anonymity.
00:32:06.100I had it here in front of me, like you said before, like I'm increasingly convinced that Twitter anonymity is the refuge of scoundrel and feint.
00:32:13.180And feint is say it behind, say it and stand behind it or hold your tongue.
00:32:17.320This was like really like last year, like more than a year ago.
00:32:20.100But I think like what basically prompted this last attack, it was, if I remember correctly, it was in, it was in response to an interview with Netanyahu.
00:32:31.860I think it was actually shortly after the old Kanye, you know, Nate and chocolate milk thing.
00:32:36.060And then I probably got a lot of like trolling accounts that were commenting on YouTube, if I remember correctly.
00:32:41.880And I think essentially what it does, what it did is basically generalize based on those comments to everyone that is basically using a pseudonymous name or publishing, having an anonymous account.
00:32:58.700But I've also, this is not in defense necessarily, because I, as I said, again, I don't, I don't think he generally believes that you can generalize.
00:33:07.560I mean, he's a psychologist, you must know this, I mean, and he's purposely attacking and generalizing for, and he's using the name anonymous accounts, anonymous trolls.
00:33:18.540And essentially even asking Elon Musk, if I remember correctly, I can find that, I couldn't find that tweet before, but if I remember correctly, it was asking Musk,
00:33:25.740maybe either to ban them or maybe to like ghost ban them or something like that, or maybe force them to reveal their identity.
00:33:34.080Or if not, they would just like being hidden from, from the time and something like that.
00:33:38.560I can't remember exactly what it was demanding Musk to do, but I think it's real, the real motivation to do that.
00:33:43.300It boils down to the fact that it's essentially trying to gatekeep.
00:33:46.720I think it's essentially, it's essentially sensing some kind of vibe shift that, that if we're not in 2017 anymore,
00:33:56.420that essentially expressing opposition to gender pronouns is not really the, the highest or like most dangerous or more effective form of dissent.
00:34:07.740I mean, we've kind of like moved past, but most reasonable people and most mainstream people actually kind of agree.
00:34:12.340I mean, you see, you see people like Barry Weiss and, and, and Bill Mayer, even like, you know, occasionally criticizing the work.
00:34:20.620So I mean, we're pretty much beyond that.
00:34:22.320I mean, JK Rowling is against us at this point, right?
00:34:24.940Like, that's how mainstream opposition to this is.
00:34:34.800So I think, I think, I think that's, that's really the real reason why he's generalizing.
00:34:38.900I don't really think he's completely unaware of the difference between a troll that just like pretty, like some random guy that just wants to like troll or like, you know, show his worst impulses.
00:34:50.700So just like say things without any sort of like accountability and, and, and anonymous accounts that, I mean, he must have come across some kind of like anonymous account.
00:34:59.820I mean, he's not in our sphere, but he must be aware there are some like quite popular accounts that have been creating content that have been writing anonymously, pseudonymously, that have been like building an audience.
00:35:11.620So I think he's, he's, he's, he's, he's even more dishonest than he looks his attack on anonymity precisely because I think he's trying to gatekeep rather than actually identifying some kind of like phenomenon or not.
00:35:24.360Yeah. And it's particularly gross for a guy who lives in a country that just stole the bank accounts of protesters, not just them, but their families and people who were trying to support them.
00:35:38.540And actually sent like, you know, agents of the state to go beat them.
00:35:42.680Like he, he's talking about how you need to stand behind your word and you need to have the courage of your conviction.
00:35:49.240But when these guys were doing exactly the things that he suggested in real life under their real names, he basically told the truckers go home and he didn't have any support.
00:36:00.960He hasn't been out there raising funds or fighting for these people's rights or any of this stuff.
00:36:05.860He, he's willing to complain about anonymity, but he's not willing to do anything that might alleviate the cancel culture and the genuinely totalitarian state oppression aimed at people in his country who follow his advice.
00:36:20.740And I'm sorry, that's cowardly at that point.
00:36:26.020Like it's one thing to say, okay, I disagree with this.
00:36:29.800And so I'm going to do everything I can to support you and make sure that you have the right to speak up and do, you know, what you need to under your own name.
00:36:38.420It's another thing to, you know, just throw shade at people and then cowardly, you know, tell them to retreat in the face of following your advice.
00:36:53.740He's done it with the, I think with the vaccines, it was, I think, pro, pretty pro vaccines.
00:36:58.840Um, I guess it makes sense because like, it's at the end of the day is a liberal and he believes in like the enlightenment, the values of the enlightenment and science and all of that.
00:37:07.140Uh, so, but, but he has done it before.
00:37:10.580I mean, it's, you know, it's quite telling you after he posted that tweet, like I went through his timeline, which I never do, uh, after he posts that, you know, the tweet that, you know, essentially anonymous trolls are basically like demons and they're, they're like psychopaths and they're, and all that.
00:37:28.960Like the next tweet was like reply to the Babylon Bee essentially posting just another article about criticizing gender, you know, prominent people.
00:37:39.180And he was like replying, like, well done guys.
00:37:41.140Keep up the boot work with a smiley face.
00:37:42.940It's like, is this like the, is this what we're supposed to do?
00:37:59.780Uh, so I think it's, it's definitely, it's definitely some, some cowardice on his part.
00:38:03.760I don't mean to call him like a coward, like, because he has done, you know, I'm willing to recognize he has done some, some, like, in a set, some like very interesting, positive things.
00:38:11.540I was myself actually one of the first people that came across him and actually enjoyed his lecture a lot.
00:38:17.560And then he started like commenting on politics and he became pretty cringe pretty fast.
00:38:21.120But, uh, it's, it's, it's, I don't know how much it's tied to this, uh, uh, tied to this, the fact that he's actually publishing, uh, there's actually using his real name.
00:38:32.600And sort of like, he's, he's pretending to, uh, be, uh, expressing his own opinion as opposed to like, um, you know, policing himself or, or, or, or whatnot.
00:38:44.320I don't, I don't, I don't know exactly what, what, what, what factor, the fact that he, that he's like a public figure and his own name with a face out there plays a role in this.
00:38:52.240But it's definitely, it's definitely not willing to, it's definitely not willing to take his ideas to the, to the, to this natural conclusion and, and, and, uh, and being as intellectually honest as he can be for obvious, obvious status, um, purposes, right?
00:39:08.680He's obviously concerned about mainstream respectabilities, obviously wants to keep appealing to the masses.
00:39:13.780He wants to be invited to the, to all these events and, and just like most, most social climbers, political commentators really do.
00:39:21.880And so there's, there's some, there's definitely some cowardice on, on his end.
00:39:26.380So, uh, I think one of the things that you mentioned while you were talking about Anans is interesting too, to explore, because you mentioned having experts who otherwise couldn't speak, um, write very essential pieces, uh, uh, synonymously.
00:39:44.440And I think that's really important because in our culture where the experts are the high priests, right?
00:39:49.900Well, if the experts say the experts didn't say the experts believe this, and, you know, in this culture where the, the expertise is supposed to grant some kind of blessing from above on, on your words, there's a lot of pressure inside lots of these disciplines to tell people to shut up, sit down and just parrot whatever woke stuff is coming down the pipeline.
00:40:12.520I mean, who cares what the data says, suppress the data if you need to rewrite it.
00:40:16.480We, we have, we have, uh, you know, social scientists who have to completely like, um, uh, trash studies and papers that they've submitted and completely like rewrite the whole thing and putting emphasis elsewhere and changing the data.
00:40:31.060Just so the reports don't say the, just so the reports don't say the things they don't want them to say.
00:40:35.920And so when you have this kind of incredible internal pressure on experts to conform and come up with exactly the narrative that they're supposed to, the, the anonymity or the pseudonymity is really important because they can still deliver that, you know, they can deliver the data and they can deliver the knowledge in a way that makes it clear.
00:40:55.200That they are someone who is familiar with and has expertise in there, but without having to pull their credential and put them that completely on the line, because once they're out of it, it's not like you can go practice somewhere else.
00:41:08.860You, you've been outed as a wrong thinker and you're going to end up like, you know, Steve Saylor somewhere.
00:41:13.880So like the, the importance of experts to be able to kind of leave that group think and actually exercise, uh, their expertise in a way that's valid and meaningful and reveals truth, I think is also a really essential part of, of anonymity in our time.
00:41:32.200Um, yeah, and I think it also allows them to, uh, maintain some kind of like insider knowledge that would otherwise be lost the moment that they publish something because like they, they wouldn't be able to, um, provide it anymore.
00:41:45.340I mean, the obvious example, again, is like the one that comes to mind actually, is that the article that we publish on like, um, corporate medicine and the, the way that essentially the healthcare industry functions.
00:41:57.680I mean, um, um, you publish something like that and, and, uh, under your own name, you essentially, your career is over and whatever else you want to publish, you essentially have to rely on what you have witnessed in the past.
00:42:10.680Uh, and, but if you're careful enough, and I know, you know, I've met enough anonymous accounts so far and interacted and I got to know, I've been met in person, a few of them.
00:42:21.120I obviously won't make any name, but I know some of these people actually have like important positions.
00:42:25.640That's another thing that is quietly, like pretty much misunderstood by the, by the normal, like, or even like someone like Peterson, that they tend to assume or portray these accounts.
00:42:35.760So like, you know, they're all, you know, some irresponsible, you know, early 20 year old or teenager, teenage, like guy lives in the, in his mother's basement and just like, you know, you know, been online all day.
00:42:49.640Uh, it's not true. Like most of, most of the accounts that I've actually, um, got to know, and it's, it might be because like most of the accounts that I got to know is people that want to publish and people that want to publish tend to be pretty decently established commentators.
00:43:04.120And so people that, that actually, you know, uh, publish insightful things.
00:43:09.080So it's quite obvious that these people are not just like some random, uh, or like, you know, some young inexperienced or, or, uh, guy just like, you know, ranting online.
00:43:18.400But, um, yeah, I mean, like that, that's, that's also like another, like a lot of these people that really have pretty respectable, uh, either academic or even like government position or like very high, high up in the, in the tech industry, for instance, you know, they're, they're people that they have some kind of knowledge or maybe they have like, uh, you know, experience in like in the military or whatnot.
00:43:44.240Uh, and so they, they can give some kind of like insider knowledge if they keep, um, if they aim to criticize the very structure that they basically are involved in, uh, and, and keep doing in the future, uh, while maintaining that position.
00:43:57.420So it's actually, it provides the, it provides us, you know, a way to get, gain insider knowledge that otherwise what might not be available, you know, if they publish on their own name, obviously this is like a very, uh, it's more like a minor, um, benefit.
00:44:12.720It's not like you can't really build the whole argument in favor of anonymity based on this, but it's still like something, you know, that is like, it can be quite valuable to the discussion and the whole, you know, cultural warfare.
00:44:24.800It's kind of a whistleblower status, right?
00:44:26.880Like it's someone that gets to maintain that access that otherwise wouldn't allow you to peer into those spaces.
00:44:33.780If you just have everyone who is a wrong thinker immediately declare, you know, their, their thought crime, they all stand up, they all get filed out of the room.
00:44:43.300And then these people get to continue doing what they're doing with literally zero chance that anyone possibly could reveal them or could, you know, uh, understand what's going on, could explain it to the masses, that kind of thing.
00:44:55.180And so I think that is very important.
00:44:57.460And, and I think at the same time, while you do have some of these guys who are very high profile and are in really important essential, uh, uh, positions and are sharing that kind of information.
00:45:07.980I think it's also really important because a lot, you know, I talked to, um, you know, Peterson's not alone.
00:45:13.820I've talked to many people at this point in mainstream conservative kind of, you know, the higher tiers of commentary and that kind of thing.
00:45:23.000And a lot of people have expressed the sentiment to me like, well, we just need everybody to kind of go out there and speak the truth, you know, and if just everyone would go out there and say the truth in the real life and everyone would just stand up,
00:45:39.540But the thing, and maybe it's because they're kind of separated from the day to day life.
00:45:44.600Maybe it's because they don't, you know, it's been a long time since maybe they have been in a position where, you know, their family might not eat if they get found out, you know, they're there, they might not be able to pay the mortgage, that kind of thing.
00:45:56.440They don't realize what it's like out there.
00:45:58.220You can't ask each person to like charge a machine gun nest alone, right?
00:46:03.620Like you might be able to get guys to charge a machine gun nest if you can guarantee that most of them are going to survive it and they're going to do something important.
00:46:11.540But you can't just get people one by one to run in and get mowed down and expect anything to change, right?
00:46:17.520If you don't have a network, if you don't have a plan, if you don't have a way that the people standing up and being counted and saying something like that matters,
00:46:27.200you can't actually advance the ball, you can't protect people who take the hit, then people aren't going to do it, right?
00:46:33.080And you can talk about the need for courage all you want, but if you have no plan for a victory, you're just asking people to martyr themselves for nothing.
00:46:40.520And I think that's a really important aspect of this thing that a lot of people don't get into.
00:46:45.380If you want people to be able to speak the truth in person, then you've got to do the groundwork to make it count.
00:46:53.760You've got to make a difference. And if you can't do that, you shouldn't be going after people who are just trying to express the truth in a way that still allows them to go home to their family at night and make sure that everybody eats and everybody's got, you know, a house, you know, a roof over their head.
00:47:09.500Yeah, totally. But I think like this like boils down against what we're talking about earlier, I think like you say, like, and I don't mean necessarily to criticize and to generalize this sort of like criticism towards anyone in the like somewhat mainstream conservative right-wing movement.
00:47:29.540Because actually there are plenty of people that I respect and I think they are doing like truly courageous or like they tend to be very truthful and genuine in their, in what they do.
00:47:40.120But I mean, again, like this, this argument that you just said that you've heard people making again, it's like, like it feels under scrutiny, really, because like against the balls down to what exactly are the real consequences for you to say that.
00:47:57.620So, you know, if someone, like if someone like, I actually can use myself as an example, which I publish, I put my face out there, I publish under my real name.
00:48:08.320Like if I say something that is controversial, the mind attracts some like negative attention by the mainstream, but it's, and I generally try to speak truth to power.
00:48:19.920There is a risk, but because I'm involved in like the commentary and the publishing industry and the political debate to some degree, I'm not a public figure, but some degree I'm involved with that.
00:48:33.640There's actually also like a reward. And so you're, you can't just like say that that's, that's basically what everyone can do because most people are not involved.
00:48:42.700So like, you can say like, before everyone just do that, you know, the, the baker, the straight, then the, the normie type, the soccer mom, and you know, the soccer mom tends to be liberal, but like, you know, like random normie people, they, they, they don't really have that kind of like reward structure that we have.
00:48:57.700Like we get potentially, hopefully defended by other people and therefore our sort of like credibility increases among our sphere.
00:49:06.100And then we get invited to talk to podcasts and then we get more attention to our work.
00:49:10.920And I mean, take someone like Andy Ngo, right.
00:49:13.420The, the, the Antifa, anti-Antifa journalist.
00:49:16.960I mean, that the best thing that ever happened to his career was getting, you know, basically attempted to get canceled and basically, oh, it's, it's still kind of brave what it did because they almost tried to kill him.
00:49:28.660Yeah, he got physically assaulted multiple times.
00:49:31.080That was, to some degree, it's the best thing that ever happened.
00:49:33.340So that, while there is truly a risk, and so let's take some kind of like bravery to say, to speak truth to power or like oppose the current regime.
00:49:41.460And there's also like a reward that you can't, that there is there for those of us that are involved in the industry, but there is not, it's not there necessary for someone that either doesn't have a following already.
00:49:53.480And therefore, it can't just like being identified as somebody by some, like some co-worker or somebody that knows him, that knows who he is in real life, or just like some normie type that essentially is not, you know, it's not, it really doesn't really have any connection to public figures or like people willing to defend himself or probably wouldn't even notice that he's getting persecuted for, for what he said.
00:50:17.920So, yeah, I mean, like this is part of what people, this is part of the problem with the argument against, with this idea that you can just like essentially tell the truth and come out against the tyranny of our time, the soft tyranny that we're going through, that people, like the conservative movement and conservative figures make when they speak about, you know, using your name.
00:50:46.280This is, they tend to assume that it's available to everyone and that pretty much everyone would be able to, to become who they are and some kind of like, you know, protective figure released by, but in our own circles or whatnot, but in reality, it's not available to most people.
00:50:58.980Yeah, yeah, yeah, not everyone can spin cancellation into a book tour and celebrity and, you know, and raising their profile and becoming, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, I was a JPEG for a long time on the internet because, you know, I had a normal job that had nothing to do with media.
00:51:19.820And if, you know, I was, you know, in a situation where that came out, I would have, you know, very likely been fired for, you know, what I was doing.
00:51:28.300I got very lucky that, you know, kind of the skillset I had allowed me to turn that into something, you know, like you're talking about now, but the average person at my job would have just been completely devastated, right?
00:51:38.720There just would have been none of this idea, ability to like turn that into a, you know, book or a podcast or something like that.
00:51:47.400You've got to understand people like that.
00:51:49.380You can't just assume that like everyone, you know, like you said, everyone's just going to launch a career off of being canceled, that that's not how it works.
00:51:58.180But I think we've touched a lot on the whole synonymous thing and anonymity.
00:52:04.520I want to ask you one more thing before we kind of wrap things up.
00:52:07.480Guys, if you have any questions for myself or Mark, you can go ahead and drop those in the chat here.
00:52:12.420I see Santa Claus is visiting us, big man.
00:52:42.160Yeah, good salesman knows what he's doing here.
00:52:44.020But the nice thing is you really took the time and it's very important.
00:52:50.620You didn't just gather essays on beauty and art.
00:52:53.640You put it together in a way that's very aesthetically compelling, right?
00:52:58.080It's one of those things where you could pick up an issue of a very high quality fashion magazine and look for those kind of photo spreads.
00:53:07.960And it's the same kind of thing happening, but with essays on, like, why it's important for the cultural right to produce this kind of thing.
00:53:15.600Can you talk a little bit on the importance of kind of beauty and art and why it's not just the ideas on the paper that matter, but why those things are compelling and kind of move things forward for people in our areas?
00:53:29.880There's actually, like, this, I guess, I don't know how popular saying, but, like, I heard it said before, like, if you come across, like, an angry website, it's probably conservative.
00:53:50.640So it's, like, I noticed this when I began to, like, starting to think about launching a publication.
00:53:58.160Like, I knew that I wanted to take care of the aesthetics.
00:54:01.560I mean, it's part of, I guess, my inclination, I guess, always to, I like aesthetically pleasing things.
00:54:10.420And so I was inclined to want to do that anyway.
00:54:12.920But I also noticed that most of the websites that I was following, I mean, there was great content in it.
00:54:20.480Although, as I said, like, they weren't, like, taking it as far as I wanted to.
00:54:24.000But still, like, it was pretty good content, but it wasn't, like, necessarily supported by a look and feel or aesthetic or whatever you want to call it.
00:54:33.060So, like, projected that kind of respectability or, I guess, credibility that, like, a good-looking website might give you.
00:54:41.440So that's why I knew that I was going to try it at least to the best of my ability.
00:54:45.820You might not like the way that I take care of the aesthetics of the project in general.
00:54:51.280But whether it's, like, the print edition of the website.
00:54:53.380But I definitely, you can tell that I definitely take a lot of care and put a lot of thought into that aspect.
00:54:58.620And, I mean, the importance, I mean, it's pretty obvious.
00:55:02.220I mean, like you said, if you speak about beauty and if you speak about the importance of beauty, but then you neglect the way that you present your idea about beauty, whether it is, like, online or, like, in print.
00:55:14.300It's, like, don't you lose some kind of, like, credibility when it comes to, like, making an argument for beauty.
00:55:19.700So that has to be combined in terms of, like, how to persuade a larger public to care about beauty and to even, like, increase your own credibility.
00:55:35.300It's, like, people, you know, you look at, you come, you know, you go on, like, a liberal outlet and they tend to be quite nicely curated from a steady perspective.
00:55:44.740It almost, like, instinctively gives you that extra credibility that, you know, you instantly gain by coming across this website, whatever, as opposed to, whereas, like, if you come across some, like, very purely curated website from an aesthetic perspective, you immediately, like, what is this?
00:56:03.700Is this, like, some random dude's blog or is this, like, just some, like, student thing going on?
00:56:11.100Like, you, it's, like, psychologically works also on a credibility level, I guess you could say.
00:56:17.340But, yeah, I mean, like, when we decided to do the art and literature issue, like I said this before, it was actually an interview that we conducted with Mike Anton more than a year ago now.
00:56:27.420And then we sort of, like, somewhat randomly started talking about the importance of creating art and creating, also, like, combining your political, your efforts into affecting policies as much as your effect on your efforts in creating culture that can affect opinions.
00:56:47.020And we started talking about, like, and we started talking about that and mentioned, like, the problem of, like, Petrodesk networks.
00:56:52.560And I was kind of, like, fascinated by the attention that that little segment in an otherwise, like, very long and very great interview because, like, Mike Anton is just, like, impressive, really, like, the way how fast he can think on his feet and all that.
00:57:06.360But that little segment got a lot of attention.
00:57:08.300And that's when I knew that was going to be something that we needed to explore even more.
00:57:13.820And it was clearly, like, a, like, I guess, like, unexpressed consensus among most of the people in a sphere that was some kind of problem with our creation and culture productivity of the right in general.
00:57:30.260Again, like, this, obviously, like, the giant elephant in the room when you talk about this, like, you can't help but dress, obviously, the, or, I guess, to clarify,
00:57:37.920we're not really talking about politicizing art and making art that is political.
00:57:43.040But we are talking about creating art that can move people and that can actually be truth to human nature and, you know, touch people at their deepest level.
00:57:56.200And, you know, I tend to make the argument that usually that kind of art tends to be art that's on our side because, obviously, we tend to think of ourselves as people that are on the side of the truth and the side of human nature and the side of God.
00:58:09.000So that's basically when I, when we started thinking about the print edition.
00:58:12.980And so, yeah, as you said, I wanted to combine something that aesthetically plays in and not just, like, some argument in favor of it, just presenting, like, the cheapest way possibly that I could find the print with the, some random images that you find on, like, free images to stock website thing or, like, the first image when you Google, like, a keyword on Google or something.
00:58:35.920Like, I knew that I was going to be pretty selective.
00:58:38.420It's just, like, the same way that has been pretty selective on the website.
00:58:42.180And so, yeah, I like to think that, you know, I got pretty good reception and a lot of people, like, complimented on that.
00:58:48.880So I guess we kind of succeeded to some degree.
00:58:50.680Yeah, I think it might sound obvious for some people, but for those of us who are particularly naturally affected by efficiency brain, like, the need for beauty isn't, you know, it's often pushed, it's often knocked down in our society.
00:59:08.620You know, like, you know, it's especially, you know, it doesn't matter when it matters, just the function.
00:59:14.860You don't have to worry about the form.
00:59:16.120You don't have to worry about the aesthetics of the thing.
00:59:18.760You don't, you know, you don't have to have the beauty because the thing works.
00:59:23.920And that, it might seem obvious that beauty is important, but it is something that I kind of came to a realization to in a more true way.
00:59:32.580Like, of course, like any person, I preferred beautiful things, but thinking about beauty as something that is a good unto itself and matters and can make a stronger argument than a well-crafted essay or speech or something is not something that I think I had given sufficient enough weight until the last few years.
00:59:53.680So even though it might feel obvious, I think that there are still lots of people who need to hear that, that, like, beauty is its own argument.
01:00:00.900And that pairing, like you said, not politicizing that beauty, but letting that beauty speak truth into things that will then manifest themselves in the world around you, in culture, and then eventually in political movements, I think is really essential.
01:00:22.540And that's basically the reason why I try to, that's more like my end of things when it comes to, like, the process.
01:00:29.480Like, I've written before, interviewed people, et cetera, but I do, like, my main contribution is literally taking care of, like, the aesthetics aspect, as well, obviously, like, coordinating commission and all of that.
01:00:38.640But my input in terms of, like, creating content is more like designing the print edition and taking care of the aesthetic.
01:00:44.940Like you said yourself, like, beauty is an argument in all of itself.
01:00:48.380Like, it doesn't really need, and people, like, instinctively know, can tell what is beautiful and what is not.
01:00:54.600You know, like, you have all these, like, modernist architecture guys, or, like, they try and make all these, like, crazy arguments in favor of, like, you know, brutalist architecture as a form of beauty or whatnot.
01:01:08.400Then why is it that, you know, people, like, normie types when it comes to, like, I live in Budapest currently, but, like, I come from Italy.
01:01:17.680When they come to Italy, don't photograph brutalist architecture, like, none of them.
01:01:24.240They all go after, like, you know, traditional beauty or, like, actual, like, physical beauty.
01:01:28.620People are just, like, naturally attracted to that.
01:01:30.160No matter how much time, how much you try to re-engineer that, people are instinctively and naturally attracted to things that are universally beautiful.
01:01:39.800And I think that our job, as conservative white-wingers, I would want to define yourself.
01:01:45.960If you're on the side of beauty and you're right, if you're on the side of the truth, you cannot neglect the aesthetic and beauty aspect of, like, your content production.
01:01:59.060It has to be central, in my opinion, as much as he put it, as much as it is the quality of the actual things that you're saying.
01:02:08.960And those two things have to be combined.