The Auron MacIntyre Show - In Defense of Anons ｜ Guest： Mark Granza ｜ 12⧸22⧸22

00:00:00.000 We hope you're enjoying your Air Canada flight.

00:00:02.300 Rocky's vacation, here we come.

00:00:05.060 Whoa, is this economy?

00:00:07.180 Free beer, wine, and snacks.

00:00:09.620 Sweet! 0.95

00:00:10.720 Fast-free Wi-Fi means I can make dinner reservations before we land.

00:00:14.760 And with live TV, I'm not missing the game.

00:00:17.800 It's kind of like, I'm already on vacation.

00:00:20.980 Nice! 0.94

00:00:22.160 On behalf of Air Canada, nice travels.

00:00:25.260 Wi-Fi available to Airplane members on Equipped Flight.

00:00:27.340 Sponsored by Bell. Conditions apply.

00:00:28.560 See AirCanada.com.

00:00:30.000 We'll be right back.

00:01:00.000 We'll be right back.

00:01:29.980 Hey guys, how's it going?

00:01:34.180 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:01:36.060 Got a great stream with a great guest I think you'll really enjoy.

00:01:42.060 Joining me today is Mark Granza.

00:01:44.220 He is the founder and the editor of a great publication called IM1776.

00:01:50.980 If you haven't been reading that, you really should fix it because they have all kinds of great people over there.

00:01:57.040 And I'm not just saying that because he was one of the first people to publish my work.

00:02:00.780 But Mark, thank you so much for joining me.

00:02:02.580 Thank you, Grant.

00:02:03.780 It's great to be here, man.

00:02:04.680 Thanks.

00:02:04.940 Absolutely.

00:02:06.180 So we're going to get into all kinds of stuff.

00:02:08.300 We're going to talk about anonymity.

00:02:10.700 We're going to talk about Jordan Peterson and kind of his critique of it.

00:02:14.540 And kind of as someone who publishes a bunch of anonymous people, kind of what you think about it, that kind of thing.

00:02:20.680 But before we get into all of that, I want to know, how did this all get started?

00:02:25.620 Kind of what's your backstory?

00:02:26.840 How did you end up founding IM1776 and bringing so many interesting voices together?

00:02:33.660 It was kind of random, I would say.

00:02:35.720 It wasn't definitely like planning.

00:02:37.200 It wasn't like in the making for like years.

00:02:38.980 I never really like pictured myself doing this sort of thing.

00:02:42.060 Up until it was like 2020.

00:02:44.020 That's when we launched the magazine.

00:02:45.300 And, you know, by then I spent like basically that previous like couple of years like going down a rabbit hole and basically becoming like very disillusioned with the conservative movement and not encountering any sort of like meaningful resistance to what I was increasingly perceiving as some, you know, like as a threatening and very tyrannical, you know, form of like culture and by the left, essentially.

00:03:14.740 And I wasn't encountering anything in the mainstream that was like meaningfully opposing or like evenly accurately describing the nature of what was happening around us.

00:03:26.800 So I got on Twitter and I started coming across a lot of like, you know, for the purpose of the conversation as well, since we're going to talk about anonymity.

00:03:36.680 I love these people that are anonymous and or like dissident, right?

00:03:40.420 They tend to tend to be like post-liberal in the beginning, people that were just starting to criticize more accurately the essentially what the nature of the corruption that we were facing was about.

00:03:51.480 And so by 2020, obviously the lockdowns began and I was like already like very much on the fringes of the acceptable discourse, you know, like bordering on the very unacceptable one.

00:04:05.140 And then also like the riots in the summer of 2020, the Floyd riots, and I got more and more online, obviously because of the lockdowns, I became like basically a recluse and I was just like online all the time.

00:04:20.020 And I had this blog where I was completely neglecting because also like I'm not like this like super insightful writer or anything, but I built this website for some reason.

00:04:31.960 I had this blog and I thought to myself, if I'm like currently unable really to like coming up with anything really insightful myself or like potentially, you know, fruitful for the conversation, I was like, well, what am I going to do with this website?

00:04:48.960 And that's when I got the idea basically of like essentially giving it to other people.

00:04:52.320 And so I literally just got an idea like that while talking with a friend on Facebook.

00:04:56.860 And I said, I'm just going to launch a website.

00:04:58.680 I started reaching out to some of these people that basically this network of, you know, anonymous account and so somewhere anonymous, I'm not.

00:05:05.420 And I started spreading voice.

00:05:07.160 I was going to launch a website that basically like two weeks later, I started in the website.

00:05:11.540 But yeah, that was basically not nothing really in my background or my really upbringing that would ever suggest that I would find myself in this position.

00:05:24.620 Quite the contrary, actually.

00:05:26.100 I just happened, you know, to see the opportunity and I wanted to do it and I find it meaningful to do it as well.

00:05:34.520 So it's really rewarding in many ways as a work.

00:05:36.840 So that's how I got started basically.

00:05:38.220 Well, and I think that's so important because, you know, so many people ask me, you know, what can I do?

00:05:43.380 How can I be involved?

00:05:44.660 I'm not a writer.

00:05:45.940 I'm not going to make video content, that kind of thing.

00:05:48.820 You know, they think that the only thing that you can do is commentate.

00:05:52.920 But actually, there are things that are far more important.

00:05:55.880 Guys like you that are bringing people together, providing a platform, organizing.

00:06:00.400 You know, you say, okay, me, myself, I'm not going to write a bunch of these big pieces.

00:06:04.000 But you're facilitating something that otherwise wouldn't exist.

00:06:07.520 That's the great thing, I think, about IM1776 is it has this ability to bring top tier big names like, you know, Michael Anton or people like that on board.

00:06:19.100 But then you also have guys like Zero HP Lovecraft, you know, showing up on the same publication.

00:06:23.880 And that's what gives it – that's why it's always introducing something very interesting to the public and a face that I think otherwise wouldn't be available.

00:06:33.720 And, you know, like you said, even though you don't have a background in something like that, facilitating that meeting space, creating that is super important for what's going on right now.

00:06:43.060 Yeah, totally.

00:06:43.560 Thanks, man.

00:06:43.980 And also, I would say, like, I totally agree.

00:06:46.700 And also, for me personally, it was like a moment where I essentially, you know, I had the sufficient humility that I never really had in my life.

00:06:55.300 I wasn't really like a humble guy.

00:06:56.640 I was actually pretty arrogant.

00:06:57.940 And I paid a high price for that, actually, in my early 20s.

00:07:01.080 But essentially, I was going like down essentially a self-discovery path.

00:07:08.980 You know, like I had to really learn in the hard way that I wasn't going to be – that I wasn't exactly, you know, going to be neither an intellectual or like a public figure in the sense that, you know, the solution was going to come from me.

00:07:22.340 And once I found the humility to understand that, you know, that whatever I was going to do to improve the situation wasn't going to be – I was going to be at the forefront the way that I imagined I would have been, that's where basically the opportunity, like the idea came up.

00:07:34.440 I mean, so, yeah, I mean, there are many ways, you know, that we don't just need, like, people that, you know, that have the intellect to understand exactly what's going on or maybe, like, the educational background or the, you know, the skills as a writer, which doesn't mean that I cannot write or, you know, I don't understand ideas.

00:07:52.880 But, you know, if you tend to be one of those people and if you tend to think that, you know, you can't contribute any other way by commenting yourself, it's not true.

00:08:03.220 You can create, you know, you can create networks, you can facilitate, as you put it, you know, I guess outlets where people can find what you think is true,

00:08:14.180 which is really what I was, really my only, I guess, maybe if not skill or definitely my only constant, I would say, like, the only thing that I was looking at at the moment,

00:08:26.340 like, I came to the point where, like, all of the certain things that I thought was of the way they understood society and the way they understood the political landscape

00:08:37.320 and I would say the cultural landscape as well, they really, like, collapsed, you know, it was more like a, like, in the making for years, but, like, 2020 and, like, 20, I would say, period between 2017 and 2020,

00:08:47.360 everything, like, that I thought was true, not just about me, but about society and everything, really, like, collapsed.

00:08:53.380 And so I was, like, I was really open-minded. The only thing I was looking for was truth.

00:08:57.340 So if you're the kind of person who can, you know, have the, I would say, some degree of honesty of pursuing the truth and pursuing what you think is good

00:09:05.620 and there are many things that you can do. Yeah.

00:09:12.060 Yeah, no, I think that's really essential because, like, I think so many of us have that backstory, right, where we were looking at things and they didn't seem right

00:09:20.200 and over time they were wearing away, but then, like you, I hit that 2020 mark and that's when my eyes really were opened

00:09:27.000 and then we're all sitting here trying to figure out, okay, well, what's next? Like, what can we do about it?

00:09:31.200 What meaningful thing can we do to understand or take action, that kind of thing?

00:09:36.440 And so many people, I think, are just kind of sitting around on the sidelines waiting for someone to kind of, like,

00:09:41.560 pick them up off the bench and say, hey, buddy, you're going to do this or whatever, but instead, you're taking action, right?

00:09:47.040 And even if you don't know what that action is going to be and even if it isn't, maybe in the original avenue you want it to be,

00:09:53.360 you can still make a difference by just getting in there.

00:09:56.520 You never know what, you know, I know so many people in this space now who are, you know, starting conferences

00:10:01.920 and creating networks so people can find jobs if they get canceled and just doing all kinds of work

00:10:08.040 that's really essential for people to kind of survive in this space through what we're going through.

00:10:14.480 And it's not all just, you know, making videos and writing essays or whatever.

00:10:18.760 And so it's really great to hear that, you know, people like yourself are just picking up that ball and doing really important work.

00:10:25.280 So let's go ahead and get to the actual topic here.

00:10:28.300 So Jordan Peterson has a couple times gone after anonymity on the Internet.

00:10:35.340 And I think there's a lot of reasons why.

00:10:38.340 I think maybe, you know, understanding this guy is a public figure.

00:10:41.700 He probably gets a lot of hate on a regular basis.

00:10:45.320 You can kind of understand why you would kind of get fed up with this thing.

00:10:49.000 But he comes at people really harsh, right?

00:10:51.140 He's not mincing his words.

00:10:52.540 He's not just saying, hey, you should have the courage to post your name or stuff on this kind of thing.

00:10:56.700 He really goes at people who calls them trolls and demons, you know, all kinds of stuff.

00:11:03.660 And it talks about how they have dark, you know, triad personalities and they're psychopaths and that kind of thing.

00:11:09.240 And I thought you were the right person to talk about this because, again, one of the things that makes your publication different and interesting is so many anonymous people.

00:11:19.400 It's not everybody.

00:11:20.280 In fact, I don't think it's even the majority of who you publish.

00:11:22.540 I looked it up before joining the stream.

00:11:24.440 It's like 20 to 25, 20 to 30 percent of the offer that we publish are publishing with a pseudony.

00:11:30.320 Yeah, and so it's not the dominant thing of what you do, but it is a unique place that gives an outlet to some of the most interesting thinkers online right now who otherwise wouldn't be able to speak due to anonymity.

00:11:45.780 So since you're someone who gives a platform, I was hoping you could kind of open up with just what is valuable about anonymity?

00:11:54.200 How does it or why does it create interesting thinkers in a time like ours?

00:12:00.740 Yeah, totally.

00:12:02.080 I would say that actually I would start by I think there's a pretty meaningful distinction to be made that I don't think is made quite often enough between anonymous and pseudonymous accounts.

00:12:12.160 Like technically, I think like what Peterson is doing when he's going after the, I mean, letting aside the fact that I think is mostly like, as I pointed out before, I think he's mostly attacking anonymous account because it's essentially like attempting to keep promoting himself.

00:12:30.800 It's essentially gatekeeping as it was like, you guys were talking about the previous term that I listened to and it's gatekeeping and also attempting to promote himself as still like at the avant-garde of the countercultural and the most radical form of dissent possible when it really is like it's mostly expressing views that have become pretty mainstream and pretty widely accepted.

00:12:59.500 And so to some degree, I think his attack is motivated by this desire to essentially gatekeep and promote himself and not being willing to recognize that if he really wants to be still at the avant-garde of the most meaningful form of dissent, he would have to really start changing some of his opinions and maybe like making it a little bit more radical than he's not willing, more than he's willing to do.

00:13:28.880 But I think like when it comes to like anonymous account, really, I was looking at this lecture today about like, you know, essentially like breaking down the meaning of what is a name, really.

00:13:39.760 And he was talking about anonymous and pseudonymous account.

00:13:42.160 Like really what most of like these people that we defend when we talk about the anonymous, like the anonymous, right, they tend to be pseudonymous as opposed to anonymous because the technical definition of anonymous is somebody that does not have a name.

00:13:54.720 So let's say that you put something out there and you just like don't put any name and we just like put like a random name and it's not associated with anything that you ever published before and it's never going to be associated with anything that you're going to publish.

00:14:07.160 It's completely different from someone that has built some kind of identity around like a pseudonym.

00:14:13.080 And this might sound like just like semantic, but it's actually a meaningful distinction because essentially the main critique that people, that someone like Peterson has, I understand, is that there's no accountability whatsoever for what you say.

00:14:25.340 And that's not really true for like pseudonymous account because like they, there might not be accountability from like a legal perspective because they can't, there's obviously like a layer of safety when it comes to like potential repercussion from the state or even like, you know, getting canceled the way you understand, but getting canceled, like fired or having some kind of like financial repercussion.

00:14:50.840 But, but, but it still doesn't mean that there's no, there's no, there's no any form of repercussion.

00:14:55.760 Like you're still like, if you're, if you say something that is outright down, but if it's stupid or, or incorrect or immoral or just like cringe or whatever, and you get, you know, criticized for it.

00:15:06.180 And you're essentially to the point that let's say you have to delete your own account. 0.61

00:15:09.400 I mean, that's still a form of repercussion because like you, you can't just like, unless you're like an outright, like a textbook sociopath, you can just like create a new identity and just start starting over.

00:15:19.000 Like you're like, but people are going to, so supposedly you're going to be interacting with the same people, right?

00:15:23.620 You're going to want to interact with the same account, the same sphere that you were belonging to.

00:15:27.880 And so I think it's a meaningful distinction because the, the, the main critique that people, these people have is essentially Peterson have is that there's no accountability and there's no essentially incentive for people to behave in a way that is productive for the discussion.

00:15:42.580 And it's still like socially, you know, decent and not like being like an outright troll or a psychopath or like, I don't know what he calls them.

00:15:50.720 Like demons, he says. 0.77

00:15:52.660 Yeah, literal demons, he says, yeah.

00:15:54.200 No, not even like social, but like demons.

00:15:56.700 So yeah, I think, I think like that's, that's most, actually most of the offer that we publish, they tend to be like pseudonymous account.

00:16:04.540 If not all of them, actually.

00:16:05.820 We haven't, I don't really think we really like publish like an outright anonymous account.

00:16:09.240 Like someone that just like, I guess it was like a whistleblower or someone like, someone like that could be like an anonymous account.

00:16:14.680 It just like puts the information out there.

00:16:16.720 We haven't really published any anonymous account.

00:16:18.180 Most of the people, most of these accounts, they obviously have this layer of security that you can't really trace them to like a, like a real life.

00:16:26.960 And by that would mean like a legal name or like a, like a, like a in real life person.

00:16:31.460 But they still have some kind of like, if people want to double check, if people want to check what they, what they said before, what it wrote before and get some kind of like idea of these people are, there is some kind of like available personality online that you can, that you can hold them accountable to some degree.

00:16:45.740 So, yeah, that, that would be like my, my, my, my starting point for this, for this particular debate.

00:16:53.560 As to the value of like dissonant, like anonymous, I guess it was a pseudonymous account.

00:16:59.140 It's like, I mean, it's pretty obvious.

00:17:01.840 I mean, the, the main, the main argument in favor of anonymity is basically that, you know, these people tend to be less constrained and less worried about what other might, people might think of them either because they're not necessarily concerned about gaining like mainstream respectability or because like they obviously don't, they're not accountable to the same degree.

00:17:24.160 So they, they tend to be more truthful.

00:17:26.160 They tend to express their opinion more clearly.

00:17:28.540 They tend to be, express the real opinion, I guess you can say, to the degree that they felt real to them than, than like a, like a person writing on his own, his own name would.

00:17:39.380 And yeah, I mean, I've got, I've got that experience with, like we publish a few articles, like a few that comes to mind, for instance, like the, you know, Schwab, this is a kind that goes by Schwab that published like an article on MKUltra.

00:17:51.660 That's not the kind of article that you, that you would easily get out of someone who published on this, on this, on this real name.

00:17:59.160 Maybe now, yes, because like, it seems like even MKUltra is being kind of like mainstream, you know, Tucker Carlson is talking about it.

00:18:05.420 Even like someone like corporate medicine, as well as this article was a critique, essentially the, the cathedral, but like focus on the, on the, on the medical industry and the, the healthcare industry by this actually practicing physician.

00:18:18.440 Right.

00:18:19.460 And, and, and, and essentially she would have published, she used to go by Paracelsus.

00:18:24.480 If she would have published on her real name, I mean, she would get instantly fired. 1.00

00:18:28.440 And, and, and so there's, there's obviously like a value to, to, and, and, and a good reason for people to be, to publish anonymous and obviously a value for, for people in our position to find that kind of content that otherwise wouldn't be able, wouldn't be easy to find.

00:18:43.640 But, when I, I, going and asking people that write on their, their own name.

00:18:49.260 So I would say those are the obvious arguments in favor.

00:18:52.640 When does fast grocery delivery through Instacart matter most?

00:18:56.620 When your famous grainy mustard potato salad isn't so famous without the grainy mustard.

00:19:01.460 When the barbecue's lit, but there's nothing to grill.

00:19:04.140 When the in-laws decide that, actually, they will stay for dinner.

00:19:07.400 Yeah, no, I think that distinction between anonymous and pseudonymous is really important because that, that's a really good point that the idea of these people not being able to be held accountable is only true in the sense that you can't publicly destroy them, right?

00:19:36.820 If there are people who want to build a reputation, who want to have credibility, you have to consistently present something that matters, right?

00:19:48.620 You can't just go out there and say anything.

00:19:50.520 You can't just go out there and throw bombs all the time because if you do, no one's going to take you seriously.

00:19:55.960 And most of the guys that are writing, say, for IM 1776 in that way are people who have already built up a certain level of public trust.

00:20:03.780 That's why they've been asked to, to write in the first place.

00:20:06.900 So it's, it's not really, it's not true anonymity in the sense of, oh, there's just no, no one will ever know who posted this.

00:20:13.520 There'll be no chain of thought or context to what happened here.

00:20:16.980 Someone can easily destroy their reputation.

00:20:18.940 And I've seen many people easily destroy their reputation as anons.

00:20:22.960 That happens all the time.

00:20:24.100 People flame out and destroy themselves and become laughing stocks as anonymous posters.

00:20:29.760 The only difference is they don't lose their job at the end of it, right?

00:20:33.440 Like, and, and so, yeah.

00:20:35.420 And so that's really important when we have.

00:20:37.660 Unless they get boxed and then they actually do lose their job.

00:20:40.520 Yeah, exactly.

00:20:41.440 And that's the thing is we know exactly why people do this, like you said, because people, we, we do live under soft totalitarianism.

00:20:49.000 Yeah.

00:20:49.120 No one's carting you off to the gulag yet, you know, but they, you will get completely canceled.

00:20:55.600 You could get fired.

00:20:56.480 Your family could be destroyed.

00:20:58.820 People might keep you from doing banking now, right?

00:21:02.280 This is something we see, like people unable to buy or sell things, you know, because they, they have the wrong opinions publicly, right?

00:21:10.100 And so I think when a guy like Peterson looks at this, I think the reason he approaches it the way he does is his own personal experience, right?

00:21:19.660 Because Peterson did go through a kind of cancellation, right?

00:21:24.600 He was very publicly attacked for what he said.

00:21:27.360 He was called awful names.

00:21:29.160 People protested him.

00:21:30.840 People, you know, slandered him.

00:21:33.180 All kinds of stuff happened to him.

00:21:35.260 And he thinks to himself probably, hey, I did this under my real name.

00:21:39.560 I stood up and it was counted.

00:21:41.160 I did what I should do and everything was fine.

00:21:45.800 But I think the big difference for Peterson and like your average person is Peterson was already of a really high social standing, right?

00:21:53.140 He's already a guy who had a lot of prestige, taught a lot of big universities, you know.

00:21:59.420 And so when he was canceled, what he did was immediately turn that into a bunch of fame, a giant speaking tour, big book deals.

00:22:09.460 You know, he turned into a, you know, multimillionaire, I'm sure at this point off of this cancellation.

00:22:16.180 And I'm not taking anything away from his bravery or from his body of work in those times.

00:22:21.680 I actually want to take something away from his bravery.

00:22:23.560 Okay, go ahead.

00:22:24.320 Go ahead.

00:22:25.000 Because I actually, I have this, I mean, I obviously can only speculate to his real reason for doing this.

00:22:33.280 And with this, I don't mean to say that it wasn't brave at all.

00:22:35.740 But I actually remember coming across Peterson before, I wasn't exactly following, but I remember coming across him before even the whole like gender pronoun bill came up and he became vocal against it.

00:22:49.860 He was actually already quite popular online.

00:22:52.860 Like he was posting all of his lecture online, already building the following, he had a Patreon account, so a pretty dedicated following.

00:22:59.080 He had some kind of like safety net.

00:23:00.420 And obviously like Peterson is not exactly like, obviously he's not a stupid man and he must understand the dynamics of like cultural and political discourse to some extent.

00:23:11.420 And he might have, he definitely probably didn't predict it that he was going to explode this big.

00:23:15.980 Because I mean, like look at him now, it's basically probably the most, is he like the most famous guy in like cultural, political discourse ever?

00:23:24.240 I mean, I was like, I saw him like, you know, posting a picture with like Cristiano Ronaldo, which is like the most famous man on the planet, basically.

00:23:32.120 And he was, but you know, he had some kind of like safety net.

00:23:35.460 And yet, and I think like, while it was still to some degree, obviously brave, because you're still like putting your, your real, your opinion out there and you're opposing like the main cultural force of society.

00:23:47.720 And actually speaking truth to power to some degree, although he doesn't really like get that close to the truth as we might want it, want him to be, but it was still brave.

00:23:57.860 But I think I've actually was, it was, it was, I, I think it was partly called like a, more like a calculated, calculated risk.

00:24:07.160 I think he knew that he was, there was a pretty good chance that did the, whatever he did, it was going to increase his popularity and, and potentially even like, you know, elevating to the status of like an intellectual or more like a, like a counter, counter cultural figure.

00:24:24.260 I'm not, again, I don't mean to like, I don't mean to obviously say that, you know, it wasn't brave at all.

00:24:31.660 It was the opposite of bravery, like cowardice or was like complete grifting or like, or anything, but I think like, you know, you may ask most people today and the most people, the way they perceive Peterson before he became famous.

00:24:43.660 It was like, most people was like this unknown professors, you know, it just like out of nowhere, it just decided to just speak the truth.

00:24:50.680 And this, I think is like, this is, I think also like this part, part of like a related problem and most of people argue against anonymity or like Saddam's account.

00:25:02.660 They tend to actually make the argument that, that, you know, essentially what they're doing, and most of these people are obviously people that are already like engaged, like as normally people don't bother, like, you know, participating in like anonymous versus real life debate.

00:25:15.840 Most of these people are cultural, political commentators, journalists, maybe essays, or like people that are engaged, like in the content economy to some degree that we are also in.

00:25:26.560 And they sort of like make the argument, essentially what they're doing is speaking the truth to power to the same degree that let's say some like normie or like very like oppressed, lonely guy in some, some, it's like that guy from the Arab Spring, right.

00:25:42.120 You know, you know, that they basically set himself on fire, you know, they, they sort of, they sort of like, they sort of like conflate what they're doing with like some just guy who just want to speak the truth and potentially the risk is all career and life even to, to essentially criticize the regime.

00:26:00.320 I mean, there's not entirely what we're doing.

00:26:01.580 I mean, I, I, I basically use my real name and I'm not just like, I'm not just like attempting to speak the truth to some degree is like where we're gaining and we're so like profiting, not necessarily financially, but so like we're getting rewarded for our opposition to some degree.

00:26:22.060 Because like your, you get elevated to your status in the, I guess, commentary industry or the like publishing industry gets elevated, the more truthful you are and the more courageous you are.

00:26:33.080 So there's like a, there's like a return on, on your, on the risk that you take, there's actually a pretty good return, you know?

00:26:39.800 And so, and, and, and I think like Peterson was, I think Peterson was pretty much aware that, uh, he pretty, he knew or pretty much easily could predict that this was not going to be like the end of his career.

00:26:53.720 So it wasn't like entirely like 100% prey.

00:26:56.140 There was also, in my opinion, some form of like calculated risk that he took and, and probably even like for his own sake, like probably was just like sick of being in academia.

00:27:04.360 And that's commendable, right?

00:27:05.420 Because like academia is a sick place.

00:27:07.980 And so he probably thought that it was actually a pretty good opportunity to, you know, get some fresh air to sort, so to speak and, you know, uh, explore new form of, uh, venture and, and, and, um, for himself.

00:27:21.160 So, yeah, I think this is actually, I think this is the crux of the, of the whole like anonymous versus like a real life, real life debate, uh, things like we're all engaged to some degree in this like content.

00:27:34.360 Economy making essentially the only real difference is that anonymous account tend to be, uh, they tend to be more, uh, free to express opinions, like dissenting opinions and transgressive opinions that would otherwise, uh, get them in trouble if it would be published on the real name.

00:27:53.360 And the downside of that is obviously that there is true.

00:27:55.820 There is some truth to the fact that this is sort of like encourages or like incentivizes, or at least facilitate some kind of like, uh, form of like antisocial or maybe just like, you know, uh, childish behavior or, or, uh, not careful enough behavior.

00:28:12.100 And on the other side of the debate is obviously the, the, the, the, the opposite way.

00:28:15.720 I mean, obviously they're more, uh, uh, punishment only of your name makes you more cautious and makes you more, um, I guess, responsible or at least incentivizes you to be more responsible.

00:28:27.120 But the obvious downside of that is that you always have to be policing yourself, you know, not always, right.

00:28:33.000 Uh, the, I like to think that I, that I don't police myself in any way, but that's not entirely true.

00:28:37.180 Right.

00:28:38.040 Uh, and, but I also don't do it.

00:28:39.800 I don't, I police myself also because like former, as a former like tactic, because maybe I just don't think that saying out loud this, this thing right now would have any benefit.

00:28:49.320 And we'll probably, you know, put maybe the people that write for us under, you know, attack, you know, for a guilt by association and whatnot.

00:28:55.960 But these, these, I think are the, the, the upside and the downside of both running on your, your real name and pseudonymously.

00:29:03.680 Yeah, I think that's true.

00:29:05.300 You know, you're right that, you know, Peterson probably understood that, you know, he wasn't just bumbling into this thing and happened to have arrived at this moment.

00:29:13.660 I think there's probably some truth to that, but I think that the, you know, like you said, we're all, we're all limiting ourselves to some extent, right?

00:29:22.900 Like we're always checking what we should say.

00:29:24.880 Then that's a healthy thing, right?

00:29:26.180 Like that it's, it's healthy to know the limitations around you.

00:29:30.180 Like you're not a complete, you know, sociopath.

00:29:32.360 Like you notice the people around you, you care about what they're going to think about you, you care about what they're going to say, you care about the ramifications of what you speak.

00:29:40.560 But the thing is that doesn't just disappear if you're doing it anonymously, you know, or, or synonymously, like you said, you know, those, those, uh, synonymous accounts still because, well, first they have, you know, they have to work a lot harder sometimes because they have no connection to real life.

00:29:59.580 They can't like put a pretty picture up on their account.

00:30:02.660 So they have to kind of earn everything, every bit of their reputation because they don't have a fancy title or a background or a family name or, uh, you know, good looks or something to propel them.

00:30:14.560 They have to get there solely based on their ability to kind of post or, or write.

00:30:19.280 Right.

00:30:19.460 And so there, there's that aspect of it, but that means they also have to like, be careful about what they say as well, because like their audience has expectations just because your interactions are online.

00:30:30.660 Doesn't mean that they're without consequence, even if you know, your real name isn't out there, right?

00:30:37.800 Like the, the people who are reading your stuff, who are listening, who are understanding, if you want to gain their attention and have respectability and credibility and, and something to say, you have to use discretion in what you say and how you communicate.

00:30:52.580 Right. And this is especially true in a, true in a place like Twitter, which to this day is still like literally just banned Steve Saylor yesterday.

00:31:00.360 Right.

00:31:00.860 Yeah.

00:31:01.700 You know, so it's not like even under Elon, you can just say whatever.

00:31:06.360 And Steve Saylor wasn't saying anything he hasn't been saying for ever on that site.

00:31:11.420 And all of a sudden he posts something and he's banned out of, out of nowhere.

00:31:15.280 So it's not like anonymous accounts don't have to be careful what they say or how they phrase things.

00:31:20.800 I mean, there are just straight up flame accounts, right?

00:31:24.120 Like you can just go in and post all kinds of crazy stuff or scream at a celebrity or something and then just jihad your account and boom, it's gone.

00:31:32.840 Right.

00:31:33.020 Like that's the thing you can do, but that's, that's a, that's a short-term strategy, right?

00:31:37.440 Like you'll never do anything of significance doing that.

00:31:40.720 So if that's the only thing he's referring to, well, that's one thing, but I don't think that's all he's referring to.

00:31:47.040 Right.

00:31:47.180 But I think, I think it's, it's obviously conflating, it's obviously generalizing.

00:31:52.100 That's his first mistake.

00:31:54.000 There's, there are, I mean, there are actually anonymous accounts that behave like that.

00:31:58.300 I mean, I think actually what is, if I remember correctly, what basically triggered at least this last attack, which is done before against anonymity.

00:32:06.100 I had it here in front of me, like you said before, like I'm increasingly convinced that Twitter anonymity is the refuge of scoundrel and feint.

00:32:13.180 And feint is say it behind, say it and stand behind it or hold your tongue.

00:32:17.320 This was like really like last year, like more than a year ago.

00:32:20.100 But I think like what basically prompted this last attack, it was, if I remember correctly, it was in, it was in response to an interview with Netanyahu.

00:32:31.860 I think it was actually shortly after the old Kanye, you know, Nate and chocolate milk thing.

00:32:36.060 And then I probably got a lot of like trolling accounts that were commenting on YouTube, if I remember correctly.

00:32:41.880 And I think essentially what it does, what it did is basically generalize based on those comments to everyone that is basically using a pseudonymous name or publishing, having an anonymous account.

00:32:57.660 I think that's his first mistake.

00:32:58.700 But I've also, this is not in defense necessarily, because I, as I said, again, I don't, I don't think he generally believes that you can generalize.

00:33:07.560 I mean, he's a psychologist, you must know this, I mean, and he's purposely attacking and generalizing for, and he's using the name anonymous accounts, anonymous trolls.

00:33:18.540 And essentially even asking Elon Musk, if I remember correctly, I can find that, I couldn't find that tweet before, but if I remember correctly, it was asking Musk,

00:33:25.740 maybe either to ban them or maybe to like ghost ban them or something like that, or maybe force them to reveal their identity.

00:33:34.080 Or if not, they would just like being hidden from, from the time and something like that.

00:33:38.560 I can't remember exactly what it was demanding Musk to do, but I think it's real, the real motivation to do that.

00:33:43.300 It boils down to the fact that it's essentially trying to gatekeep.

00:33:46.720 I think it's essentially, it's essentially sensing some kind of vibe shift that, that if we're not in 2017 anymore,

00:33:56.420 that essentially expressing opposition to gender pronouns is not really the, the highest or like most dangerous or more effective form of dissent.

00:34:07.740 I mean, we've kind of like moved past, but most reasonable people and most mainstream people actually kind of agree.

00:34:12.340 I mean, you see, you see people like Barry Weiss and, and, and Bill Mayer, even like, you know, occasionally criticizing the work.

00:34:20.620 So I mean, we're pretty much beyond that.

00:34:22.320 I mean, JK Rowling is against us at this point, right?

00:34:24.940 Like, that's how mainstream opposition to this is.

00:34:28.480 Yeah, Elon Musk.

00:34:29.360 I mean, Elon Musk literally hates the work.

00:34:32.200 Right.

00:34:33.420 And I think like also, yeah.

00:34:34.800 So I think, I think, I think that's, that's really the real reason why he's generalizing.

00:34:38.900 I don't really think he's completely unaware of the difference between a troll that just like pretty, like some random guy that just wants to like troll or like, you know, show his worst impulses.

00:34:50.700 So just like say things without any sort of like accountability and, and, and anonymous accounts that, I mean, he must have come across some kind of like anonymous account.

00:34:59.820 I mean, he's not in our sphere, but he must be aware there are some like quite popular accounts that have been creating content that have been writing anonymously, pseudonymously, that have been like building an audience.

00:35:10.500 Like he must be aware of that.

00:35:11.620 So I think he's, he's, he's, he's, he's even more dishonest than he looks his attack on anonymity precisely because I think he's trying to gatekeep rather than actually identifying some kind of like phenomenon or not.

00:35:24.360 Yeah. And it's particularly gross for a guy who lives in a country that just stole the bank accounts of protesters, not just them, but their families and people who were trying to support them.

00:35:38.540 And actually sent like, you know, agents of the state to go beat them.

00:35:42.680 Like he, he's talking about how you need to stand behind your word and you need to have the courage of your conviction.

00:35:49.240 But when these guys were doing exactly the things that he suggested in real life under their real names, he basically told the truckers go home and he didn't have any support.

00:36:00.960 He hasn't been out there raising funds or fighting for these people's rights or any of this stuff.

00:36:05.860 He, he's willing to complain about anonymity, but he's not willing to do anything that might alleviate the cancel culture and the genuinely totalitarian state oppression aimed at people in his country who follow his advice.

00:36:20.740 And I'm sorry, that's cowardly at that point.

00:36:24.080 Like that, that's, that's just ugly.

00:36:26.020 Like it's one thing to say, okay, I disagree with this.

00:36:29.800 And so I'm going to do everything I can to support you and make sure that you have the right to speak up and do, you know, what you need to under your own name.

00:36:38.420 It's another thing to, you know, just throw shade at people and then cowardly, you know, tell them to retreat in the face of following your advice.

00:36:46.980 Once the consequences come due.

00:36:48.820 Absolutely.

00:36:51.160 Yeah, no, totally.

00:36:52.300 I mean, he's, he has done it before.

00:36:53.740 He's done it with the, I think with the vaccines, it was, I think, pro, pretty pro vaccines.

00:36:58.840 Um, I guess it makes sense because like, it's at the end of the day is a liberal and he believes in like the enlightenment, the values of the enlightenment and science and all of that.

00:37:07.140 Uh, so, but, but he has done it before.

00:37:10.580 I mean, it's, you know, it's quite telling you after he posted that tweet, like I went through his timeline, which I never do, uh, after he posts that, you know, the tweet that, you know, essentially anonymous trolls are basically like demons and they're, they're like psychopaths and they're, and all that.

00:37:24.800 It's like, well, okay.

00:37:25.720 Then what is like the most meaningful form of dissent?

00:37:28.020 And I went through his timeline.

00:37:28.960 Like the next tweet was like reply to the Babylon Bee essentially posting just another article about criticizing gender, you know, prominent people.

00:37:39.180 And he was like replying, like, well done guys.

00:37:41.140 Keep up the boot work with a smiley face.

00:37:42.940 It's like, is this like the, is this what we're supposed to do?

00:37:45.680 So is this, is this it?

00:37:47.220 This is it.

00:37:48.180 This is how the, the, how the sense should look like essentially, you know, making jokes.

00:37:53.020 So like, you know, blue haired gender people with, uh, with pronouns in their bio.

00:37:58.020 Is that, is that it?

00:37:58.980 Right.

00:37:59.780 Uh, so I think it's, it's definitely, it's definitely some, some cowardice on his part.

00:38:03.760 I don't mean to call him like a coward, like, because he has done, you know, I'm willing to recognize he has done some, some, like, in a set, some like very interesting, positive things.

00:38:11.540 I was myself actually one of the first people that came across him and actually enjoyed his lecture a lot.

00:38:17.560 And then he started like commenting on politics and he became pretty cringe pretty fast.

00:38:21.120 But, uh, it's, it's, it's, I don't know how much it's tied to this, uh, uh, tied to this, the fact that he's actually publishing, uh, there's actually using his real name.

00:38:32.600 And sort of like, he's, he's pretending to, uh, be, uh, expressing his own opinion as opposed to like, um, you know, policing himself or, or, or, or whatnot.

00:38:44.320 I don't, I don't, I don't know exactly what, what, what, what factor, the fact that he, that he's like a public figure and his own name with a face out there plays a role in this.

00:38:52.240 But it's definitely, it's definitely not willing to, it's definitely not willing to take his ideas to the, to the, to this natural conclusion and, and, and, uh, and being as intellectually honest as he can be for obvious, obvious status, um, purposes, right?

00:39:08.680 He's obviously concerned about mainstream respectabilities, obviously wants to keep appealing to the masses.

00:39:13.780 He wants to be invited to the, to all these events and, and just like most, most social climbers, political commentators really do.

00:39:21.880 And so there's, there's some, there's definitely some cowardice on, on his end.

00:39:26.380 So, uh, I think one of the things that you mentioned while you were talking about Anans is interesting too, to explore, because you mentioned having experts who otherwise couldn't speak, um, write very essential pieces, uh, uh, synonymously.

00:39:44.440 And I think that's really important because in our culture where the experts are the high priests, right?

00:39:49.900 Well, if the experts say the experts didn't say the experts believe this, and, you know, in this culture where the, the expertise is supposed to grant some kind of blessing from above on, on your words, there's a lot of pressure inside lots of these disciplines to tell people to shut up, sit down and just parrot whatever woke stuff is coming down the pipeline.

00:40:12.520 I mean, who cares what the data says, suppress the data if you need to rewrite it.

00:40:16.480 We, we have, we have, uh, you know, social scientists who have to completely like, um, uh, trash studies and papers that they've submitted and completely like rewrite the whole thing and putting emphasis elsewhere and changing the data.

00:40:31.060 Just so the reports don't say the, just so the reports don't say the things they don't want them to say.

00:40:35.320 Right.

00:40:35.920 And so when you have this kind of incredible internal pressure on experts to conform and come up with exactly the narrative that they're supposed to, the, the anonymity or the pseudonymity is really important because they can still deliver that, you know, they can deliver the data and they can deliver the knowledge in a way that makes it clear.

00:40:55.200 That they are someone who is familiar with and has expertise in there, but without having to pull their credential and put them that completely on the line, because once they're out of it, it's not like you can go practice somewhere else.

00:41:08.860 You, you've been outed as a wrong thinker and you're going to end up like, you know, Steve Saylor somewhere.

00:41:13.880 So like the, the importance of experts to be able to kind of leave that group think and actually exercise, uh, their expertise in a way that's valid and meaningful and reveals truth, I think is also a really essential part of, of anonymity in our time.

00:41:32.200 Um, yeah, and I think it also allows them to, uh, maintain some kind of like insider knowledge that would otherwise be lost the moment that they publish something because like they, they wouldn't be able to, um, provide it anymore.

00:41:45.340 I mean, the obvious example, again, is like the one that comes to mind actually, is that the article that we publish on like, um, corporate medicine and the, the way that essentially the healthcare industry functions.

00:41:57.680 I mean, um, um, you publish something like that and, and, uh, under your own name, you essentially, your career is over and whatever else you want to publish, you essentially have to rely on what you have witnessed in the past.

00:42:10.680 Uh, and, but if you're careful enough, and I know, you know, I've met enough anonymous accounts so far and interacted and I got to know, I've been met in person, a few of them.

00:42:21.120 I obviously won't make any name, but I know some of these people actually have like important positions.

00:42:25.640 That's another thing that is quietly, like pretty much misunderstood by the, by the normal, like, or even like someone like Peterson, that they tend to assume or portray these accounts.

00:42:35.760 So like, you know, they're all, you know, some irresponsible, you know, early 20 year old or teenager, teenage, like guy lives in the, in his mother's basement and just like, you know, you know, been online all day.

00:42:49.640 Uh, it's not true. Like most of, most of the accounts that I've actually, um, got to know, and it's, it might be because like most of the accounts that I got to know is people that want to publish and people that want to publish tend to be pretty decently established commentators.

00:43:04.120 And so people that, that actually, you know, uh, publish insightful things.

00:43:09.080 So it's quite obvious that these people are not just like some random, uh, or like, you know, some young inexperienced or, or, uh, guy just like, you know, ranting online.

00:43:18.400 But, um, yeah, I mean, like that, that's, that's also like another, like a lot of these people that really have pretty respectable, uh, either academic or even like government position or like very high, high up in the, in the tech industry, for instance, you know, they're, they're people that they have some kind of knowledge or maybe they have like, uh, you know, experience in like in the military or whatnot.

00:43:44.240 Uh, and so they, they can give some kind of like insider knowledge if they keep, um, if they aim to criticize the very structure that they basically are involved in, uh, and, and keep doing in the future, uh, while maintaining that position.

00:43:57.420 So it's actually, it provides the, it provides us, you know, a way to get, gain insider knowledge that otherwise what might not be available, you know, if they publish on their own name, obviously this is like a very, uh, it's more like a minor, um, benefit.

00:44:12.720 It's not like you can't really build the whole argument in favor of anonymity based on this, but it's still like something, you know, that is like, it can be quite valuable to the discussion and the whole, you know, cultural warfare.

00:44:24.400 Yeah.

00:44:24.800 It's kind of a whistleblower status, right?

00:44:26.880 Like it's someone that gets to maintain that access that otherwise wouldn't allow you to peer into those spaces.

00:44:33.780 If you just have everyone who is a wrong thinker immediately declare, you know, their, their thought crime, they all stand up, they all get filed out of the room.

00:44:43.300 And then these people get to continue doing what they're doing with literally zero chance that anyone possibly could reveal them or could, you know, uh, understand what's going on, could explain it to the masses, that kind of thing.

00:44:55.180 And so I think that is very important.

00:44:57.460 And, and I think at the same time, while you do have some of these guys who are very high profile and are in really important essential, uh, uh, positions and are sharing that kind of information.

00:45:07.980 I think it's also really important because a lot, you know, I talked to, um, you know, Peterson's not alone.

00:45:13.820 I've talked to many people at this point in mainstream conservative kind of, you know, the higher tiers of commentary and that kind of thing.

00:45:23.000 And a lot of people have expressed the sentiment to me like, well, we just need everybody to kind of go out there and speak the truth, you know, and if just everyone would go out there and say the truth in the real life and everyone would just stand up,

00:45:37.560 then, then things would get fixed.

00:45:39.540 But the thing, and maybe it's because they're kind of separated from the day to day life.

00:45:44.600 Maybe it's because they don't, you know, it's been a long time since maybe they have been in a position where, you know, their family might not eat if they get found out, you know, they're there, they might not be able to pay the mortgage, that kind of thing.

00:45:56.440 They don't realize what it's like out there.

00:45:58.220 You can't ask each person to like charge a machine gun nest alone, right?

00:46:03.620 Like you might be able to get guys to charge a machine gun nest if you can guarantee that most of them are going to survive it and they're going to do something important.

00:46:11.540 But you can't just get people one by one to run in and get mowed down and expect anything to change, right?

00:46:17.520 If you don't have a network, if you don't have a plan, if you don't have a way that the people standing up and being counted and saying something like that matters,

00:46:27.200 you can't actually advance the ball, you can't protect people who take the hit, then people aren't going to do it, right?

00:46:33.080 And you can talk about the need for courage all you want, but if you have no plan for a victory, you're just asking people to martyr themselves for nothing.

00:46:40.520 And I think that's a really important aspect of this thing that a lot of people don't get into.

00:46:45.380 If you want people to be able to speak the truth in person, then you've got to do the groundwork to make it count.

00:46:53.760 You've got to make a difference. And if you can't do that, you shouldn't be going after people who are just trying to express the truth in a way that still allows them to go home to their family at night and make sure that everybody eats and everybody's got, you know, a house, you know, a roof over their head.

00:47:09.500 Yeah, totally. But I think like this like boils down against what we're talking about earlier, I think like you say, like, and I don't mean necessarily to criticize and to generalize this sort of like criticism towards anyone in the like somewhat mainstream conservative right-wing movement.

00:47:29.540 Because actually there are plenty of people that I respect and I think they are doing like truly courageous or like they tend to be very truthful and genuine in their, in what they do.

00:47:40.120 But I mean, again, like this, this argument that you just said that you've heard people making again, it's like, like it feels under scrutiny, really, because like against the balls down to what exactly are the real consequences for you to say that.

00:47:57.620 So, you know, if someone, like if someone like, I actually can use myself as an example, which I publish, I put my face out there, I publish under my real name.

00:48:08.320 Like if I say something that is controversial, the mind attracts some like negative attention by the mainstream, but it's, and I generally try to speak truth to power.

00:48:19.920 There is a risk, but because I'm involved in like the commentary and the publishing industry and the political debate to some degree, I'm not a public figure, but some degree I'm involved with that.

00:48:33.640 There's actually also like a reward. And so you're, you can't just like say that that's, that's basically what everyone can do because most people are not involved.

00:48:42.700 So like, you can say like, before everyone just do that, you know, the, the baker, the straight, then the, the normie type, the soccer mom, and you know, the soccer mom tends to be liberal, but like, you know, like random normie people, they, they, they don't really have that kind of like reward structure that we have.

00:48:57.700 Like we get potentially, hopefully defended by other people and therefore our sort of like credibility increases among our sphere.

00:49:06.100 And then we get invited to talk to podcasts and then we get more attention to our work.

00:49:10.920 And I mean, take someone like Andy Ngo, right.

00:49:13.420 The, the, the Antifa, anti-Antifa journalist.

00:49:16.960 I mean, that the best thing that ever happened to his career was getting, you know, basically attempted to get canceled and basically, oh, it's, it's still kind of brave what it did because they almost tried to kill him.

00:49:28.660 Yeah, he got physically assaulted multiple times.

00:49:30.440 Yeah, yeah.

00:49:31.080 That was, to some degree, it's the best thing that ever happened.

00:49:33.340 So that, while there is truly a risk, and so let's take some kind of like bravery to say, to speak truth to power or like oppose the current regime.

00:49:41.460 And there's also like a reward that you can't, that there is there for those of us that are involved in the industry, but there is not, it's not there necessary for someone that either doesn't have a following already.

00:49:53.480 And therefore, it can't just like being identified as somebody by some, like some co-worker or somebody that knows him, that knows who he is in real life, or just like some normie type that essentially is not, you know, it's not, it really doesn't really have any connection to public figures or like people willing to defend himself or probably wouldn't even notice that he's getting persecuted for, for what he said.

00:50:17.920 So, yeah, I mean, like this is part of what people, this is part of the problem with the argument against, with this idea that you can just like essentially tell the truth and come out against the tyranny of our time, the soft tyranny that we're going through, that people, like the conservative movement and conservative figures make when they speak about, you know, using your name.

00:50:46.280 This is, they tend to assume that it's available to everyone and that pretty much everyone would be able to, to become who they are and some kind of like, you know, protective figure released by, but in our own circles or whatnot, but in reality, it's not available to most people.

00:50:58.980 Yeah, yeah, yeah, not everyone can spin cancellation into a book tour and celebrity and, you know, and raising their profile and becoming, you know, it's one of those things where, you know, I was a JPEG for a long time on the internet because, you know, I had a normal job that had nothing to do with media.

00:51:19.820 And if, you know, I was, you know, in a situation where that came out, I would have, you know, very likely been fired for, you know, what I was doing.

00:51:28.300 I got very lucky that, you know, kind of the skillset I had allowed me to turn that into something, you know, like you're talking about now, but the average person at my job would have just been completely devastated, right?

00:51:38.720 There just would have been none of this idea, ability to like turn that into a, you know, book or a podcast or something like that.

00:51:45.560 And so you've got to have a plan.

00:51:47.400 You've got to understand people like that.

00:51:49.380 You can't just assume that like everyone, you know, like you said, everyone's just going to launch a career off of being canceled, that that's not how it works.

00:51:58.180 But I think we've touched a lot on the whole synonymous thing and anonymity.

00:52:04.520 I want to ask you one more thing before we kind of wrap things up.

00:52:07.480 Guys, if you have any questions for myself or Mark, you can go ahead and drop those in the chat here.

00:52:12.420 I see Santa Claus is visiting us, big man.

00:52:15.800 I really appreciate you coming by.

00:52:17.620 I know you got a lot of work to do here.

00:52:20.120 Thanks for showing up at chat.

00:52:21.100 He's always a great supporter of the channel.

00:52:23.720 But Mark, before we go, you're the first physical issue because it's been mostly an online publication.

00:52:30.480 But the first physical issue that you guys did was about the need for art and kind of creativity, right?

00:52:38.700 And you guys did that in a way that, oh, yeah, I got it in front of you.

00:52:41.640 There you go.

00:52:42.160 Yeah, good salesman knows what he's doing here.

00:52:44.020 But the nice thing is you really took the time and it's very important.

00:52:50.620 You didn't just gather essays on beauty and art.

00:52:53.640 You put it together in a way that's very aesthetically compelling, right?

00:52:58.080 It's one of those things where you could pick up an issue of a very high quality fashion magazine and look for those kind of photo spreads.

00:53:07.960 And it's the same kind of thing happening, but with essays on, like, why it's important for the cultural right to produce this kind of thing.

00:53:15.600 Can you talk a little bit on the importance of kind of beauty and art and why it's not just the ideas on the paper that matter, but why those things are compelling and kind of move things forward for people in our areas?

00:53:29.360 Totally, yes.

00:53:29.880 There's actually, like, this, I guess, I don't know how popular saying, but, like, I heard it said before, like, if you come across, like, an angry website, it's probably conservative.

00:53:41.200 Yeah, Yarvin said that.

00:53:42.940 You can judge how conservative the website is about how terrible the graphic design is.

00:53:49.220 Exactly.

00:53:50.240 Right.

00:53:50.640 So it's, like, I noticed this when I began to, like, starting to think about launching a publication.

00:53:58.160 Like, I knew that I wanted to take care of the aesthetics.

00:54:01.560 I mean, it's part of, I guess, my inclination, I guess, always to, I like aesthetically pleasing things.

00:54:10.420 And so I was inclined to want to do that anyway.

00:54:12.920 But I also noticed that most of the websites that I was following, I mean, there was great content in it.

00:54:20.480 Although, as I said, like, they weren't, like, taking it as far as I wanted to.

00:54:24.000 But still, like, it was pretty good content, but it wasn't, like, necessarily supported by a look and feel or aesthetic or whatever you want to call it.

00:54:33.060 So, like, projected that kind of respectability or, I guess, credibility that, like, a good-looking website might give you.

00:54:41.440 So that's why I knew that I was going to try it at least to the best of my ability.

00:54:45.820 You might not like the way that I take care of the aesthetics of the project in general.

00:54:51.280 But whether it's, like, the print edition of the website.

00:54:53.380 But I definitely, you can tell that I definitely take a lot of care and put a lot of thought into that aspect.

00:54:58.620 And, I mean, the importance, I mean, it's pretty obvious.

00:55:02.220 I mean, like you said, if you speak about beauty and if you speak about the importance of beauty, but then you neglect the way that you present your idea about beauty, whether it is, like, online or, like, in print.

00:55:14.300 It's, like, don't you lose some kind of, like, credibility when it comes to, like, making an argument for beauty.

00:55:19.700 So that has to be combined in terms of, like, how to persuade a larger public to care about beauty and to even, like, increase your own credibility.

00:55:35.300 It's, like, people, you know, you look at, you come, you know, you go on, like, a liberal outlet and they tend to be quite nicely curated from a steady perspective.

00:55:44.740 It almost, like, instinctively gives you that extra credibility that, you know, you instantly gain by coming across this website, whatever, as opposed to, whereas, like, if you come across some, like, very purely curated website from an aesthetic perspective, you immediately, like, what is this?

00:56:03.700 Is this, like, some random dude's blog or is this, like, just some, like, student thing going on?

00:56:11.100 Like, you, it's, like, psychologically works also on a credibility level, I guess you could say.

00:56:17.340 But, yeah, I mean, like, when we decided to do the art and literature issue, like I said this before, it was actually an interview that we conducted with Mike Anton more than a year ago now.

00:56:27.420 And then we sort of, like, somewhat randomly started talking about the importance of creating art and creating, also, like, combining your political, your efforts into affecting policies as much as your effect on your efforts in creating culture that can affect opinions.

00:56:47.020 And we started talking about, like, and we started talking about that and mentioned, like, the problem of, like, Petrodesk networks.

00:56:52.560 And I was kind of, like, fascinated by the attention that that little segment in an otherwise, like, very long and very great interview because, like, Mike Anton is just, like, impressive, really, like, the way how fast he can think on his feet and all that.

00:57:05.580 So it was a great interview.

00:57:06.360 But that little segment got a lot of attention.

00:57:08.300 And that's when I knew that was going to be something that we needed to explore even more.

00:57:13.820 And it was clearly, like, a, like, I guess, like, unexpressed consensus among most of the people in a sphere that was some kind of problem with our creation and culture productivity of the right in general.

00:57:30.260 Again, like, this, obviously, like, the giant elephant in the room when you talk about this, like, you can't help but dress, obviously, the, or, I guess, to clarify,

00:57:37.920 we're not really talking about politicizing art and making art that is political.

00:57:43.040 But we are talking about creating art that can move people and that can actually be truth to human nature and, you know, touch people at their deepest level.

00:57:56.200 And, you know, I tend to make the argument that usually that kind of art tends to be art that's on our side because, obviously, we tend to think of ourselves as people that are on the side of the truth and the side of human nature and the side of God.

00:58:07.920 And all of that.

00:58:09.000 So that's basically when I, when we started thinking about the print edition.

00:58:12.980 And so, yeah, as you said, I wanted to combine something that aesthetically plays in and not just, like, some argument in favor of it, just presenting, like, the cheapest way possibly that I could find the print with the, some random images that you find on, like, free images to stock website thing or, like, the first image when you Google, like, a keyword on Google or something.

00:58:35.920 Like, I knew that I was going to be pretty selective.

00:58:38.420 It's just, like, the same way that has been pretty selective on the website.

00:58:42.180 And so, yeah, I like to think that, you know, I got pretty good reception and a lot of people, like, complimented on that.

00:58:48.880 So I guess we kind of succeeded to some degree.

00:58:50.680 Yeah, I think it might sound obvious for some people, but for those of us who are particularly naturally affected by efficiency brain, like, the need for beauty isn't, you know, it's often pushed, it's often knocked down in our society.

00:59:08.620 You know, like, you know, it's especially, you know, it doesn't matter when it matters, just the function.

00:59:14.860 You don't have to worry about the form.

00:59:16.120 You don't have to worry about the aesthetics of the thing.

00:59:18.760 You don't, you know, you don't have to have the beauty because the thing works. 0.99

00:59:23.920 And that, it might seem obvious that beauty is important, but it is something that I kind of came to a realization to in a more true way.

00:59:32.580 Like, of course, like any person, I preferred beautiful things, but thinking about beauty as something that is a good unto itself and matters and can make a stronger argument than a well-crafted essay or speech or something is not something that I think I had given sufficient enough weight until the last few years.

00:59:53.680 So even though it might feel obvious, I think that there are still lots of people who need to hear that, that, like, beauty is its own argument.

01:00:00.900 And that pairing, like you said, not politicizing that beauty, but letting that beauty speak truth into things that will then manifest themselves in the world around you, in culture, and then eventually in political movements, I think is really essential.

01:00:20.680 Yeah, absolutely.

01:00:21.360 I 100% agree.

01:00:22.540 And that's basically the reason why I try to, that's more like my end of things when it comes to, like, the process.

01:00:29.480 Like, I've written before, interviewed people, et cetera, but I do, like, my main contribution is literally taking care of, like, the aesthetics aspect, as well, obviously, like, coordinating commission and all of that.

01:00:38.640 But my input in terms of, like, creating content is more like designing the print edition and taking care of the aesthetic.

01:00:44.000 And I do it for that reason.

01:00:44.940 Like you said yourself, like, beauty is an argument in all of itself.

01:00:48.380 Like, it doesn't really need, and people, like, instinctively know, can tell what is beautiful and what is not.

01:00:54.600 You know, like, you have all these, like, modernist architecture guys, or, like, they try and make all these, like, crazy arguments in favor of, like, you know, brutalist architecture as a form of beauty or whatnot.

01:01:08.400 Then why is it that, you know, people, like, normie types when it comes to, like, I live in Budapest currently, but, like, I come from Italy.

01:01:17.680 When they come to Italy, don't photograph brutalist architecture, like, none of them.

01:01:22.500 They always go after, like, beauty.

01:01:24.240 They all go after, like, you know, traditional beauty or, like, actual, like, physical beauty.

01:01:28.620 People are just, like, naturally attracted to that.

01:01:30.160 No matter how much time, how much you try to re-engineer that, people are instinctively and naturally attracted to things that are universally beautiful.

01:01:39.800 And I think that our job, as conservative white-wingers, I would want to define yourself.

01:01:45.960 If you're on the side of beauty and you're right, if you're on the side of the truth, you cannot neglect the aesthetic and beauty aspect of, like, your content production.

01:01:59.060 It has to be central, in my opinion, as much as he put it, as much as it is the quality of the actual things that you're saying.

01:02:08.960 And those two things have to be combined.

01:02:12.160 Absolutely.

01:02:12.640 All right.

01:02:13.660 Well, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up here.

01:02:16.200 Guys, thanks for coming by.

01:02:18.260 Really appreciate the audience here.

01:02:21.160 And, actually, we've got Santa here, like I said, and we really appreciate your contribution, sir.

01:02:27.340 Merry Christmas to everybody.

01:02:28.560 This will be the last show before Christmas, so just want to wish everybody a Merry Christmas.

01:02:32.800 Really appreciate you guys, you know, sticking with the show, watching, listening, supporting, all that stuff throughout the year.

01:02:38.440 Mark, for people who want to find, obviously, you know, I am 1776, but, like, is there anything exciting coming out?

01:02:46.460 Anything you want to tell people about, promote anything coming up that they should go check out?

01:02:51.300 Well, actually, there is the, I guess, the second issue.

01:02:54.300 I sent you a copy.

01:02:54.920 You haven't received it yet.

01:02:55.900 I haven't gotten it yet.

01:02:56.720 Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to seeing it.

01:02:58.280 Yeah, I haven't gotten it yet.

01:02:59.060 So, we've got, we just released, essentially, our second issue on Florida.

01:03:04.580 If people want to buy that, they can do that and support our project.

01:03:08.740 And, I guess, really, that's it.

01:03:11.280 I mean, we've got some really good articles lined up, as usual.

01:03:14.080 So, they're going to be coming out soon.

01:03:16.040 We'll take a little break of the holiday spirit.

01:03:17.840 So, yeah, that's it, really.

01:03:20.740 They can find our work on im7076.com.

01:03:23.500 And, same on Twitter, im slash, lower slash, 7076.

01:03:30.560 Excellent.

01:03:31.100 All right, guys.

01:03:31.720 Well, thanks again for watching and really appreciate Mark coming on.

01:03:36.160 As always, Merry Christmas, and we'll talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - December 22, 2022

In Defense of Anons ｜ Guest： Mark Granza ｜ 12⧸22⧸22

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript