The Auron MacIntyre Show - Is the Future Transhuman？｜ Guest： Joe Allen ｜ 5⧸28⧸24

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:32.160 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.780 I've got a great stream with a great guest

00:00:35.600 that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:38.700 So as we rush to the future,

00:00:41.380 we often, I think, don't really evaluate the path

00:00:44.680 that we're taking.

00:00:46.240 The world changes, technology seems to go ahead and evolve,

00:00:50.280 and people tend to evolve with it,

00:00:52.700 but we're not very intentionable about the path that we're on.

00:00:56.980 And so I think it's really important for us

00:00:58.720 to stop and think about the way that we are either embracing

00:01:02.240 or rejecting or developing alongside technology,

00:01:07.100 and whether it's good for us,

00:01:08.700 whether it's something that might even be inevitable,

00:01:11.100 and we simply don't have control over parts of it.

00:01:14.560 Thinking about these issues is, of course,

00:01:16.900 the transhuman editor over at Steve Bannon's War Room.

00:01:20.720 He's an author of the book, Dark Aeon, addressing this idea.

00:01:26.040 Joe Allen, thanks for joining me, man.

00:01:28.180 All right, and very good to be here.

00:01:29.320 Thank you.

00:01:30.660 Absolutely.

00:01:31.220 So let's start from the beginning, I guess.

00:01:33.500 When we talk about transhumanism,

00:01:35.400 I guess that can mean a lot of things to a lot of people,

00:01:38.440 not to hit too much on the obvious at the outset.

00:01:41.720 But when we talk about transhumanism,

00:01:43.620 are we just talking about the embrace of,

00:01:46.560 I don't know, wiring a microchip into the human brain?

00:01:50.560 Is this a wider process?

00:01:52.260 Is it only technological,

00:01:53.980 or does it involve the spiritual or the psychological as well?

00:01:57.860 How would you define the transhuman project?

00:02:02.120 You know, given the range of angles that you just presented,

00:02:06.340 I would say that you've captured most, if not all of them.

00:02:09.520 You know, it begins, I think, at a spiritual level,

00:02:12.420 the conception of what it is to be human.

00:02:14.380 And moving into the psychological,

00:02:16.560 the more immediate sort of perception

00:02:18.400 of what it is to be human.

00:02:19.540 And then, of course, technology,

00:02:21.040 how that affects what it is to be human.

00:02:24.220 You know, the term itself was initially coined

00:02:27.540 by Julian Huxley back in the mid-50s

00:02:30.420 and was really brought to the forefront

00:02:32.800 and kind of simultaneously or independently coined

00:02:37.020 by Max Moore, recoined, you could say,

00:02:40.060 in the early 80s.

00:02:42.400 For Max Moore, the idea is just simply using science

00:02:46.460 and reason to, in essence, enhance the human being.

00:02:50.900 And, of course, technology is a large part of that.

00:02:53.280 But the worldview, the scientific worldview,

00:02:55.920 is at the core of it.

00:02:57.480 And so it would be a mistake to say transhumanism

00:02:59.940 is just about chipping the brain or injecting nanobots,

00:03:03.000 but that is definitely an element.

00:03:05.300 And, you know, I try in the book

00:03:07.360 to show how both that narrow definition

00:03:10.480 and the kind of broader way that people think

00:03:12.660 of transhumanism are both applicable,

00:03:16.260 but many people who would never accept

00:03:18.420 the label of transhumanist are indeed transhumanist.

00:03:23.140 That would be anything from, you know,

00:03:24.900 more naturalistic or, you know, even right-wing thinkers

00:03:30.240 and even religious, a lot of religious thinkers

00:03:33.440 and leaders, the embrace of technology,

00:03:37.560 the use of science to alter the human being.

00:03:40.120 It's just part and parcel of the social

00:03:43.660 and technological milieu we're in.

00:03:46.940 So when do you feel like this shift really takes place?

00:03:50.460 Because, of course, technology has always,

00:03:52.860 to some degree, been a part of the story of humanity.

00:03:56.280 As soon as we start using tools,

00:03:58.300 we start using technique, it starts to shape us.

00:04:01.580 And, of course, history is filled with moments

00:04:05.180 where technology shifted the way

00:04:06.900 that our social arrangements existed.

00:04:09.740 Of course, the creation of the longbow

00:04:11.620 and then the crossbow radically reshapes

00:04:14.980 the way that European nobility is able to go ahead

00:04:18.460 and hold their social order together.

00:04:21.240 The Pope recognized this to the point

00:04:22.760 where he tried to ban the crossbow at one point.

00:04:25.140 The technology has always had some role

00:04:28.640 in shaping who we are as human beings,

00:04:30.860 how we interact with the other,

00:04:32.140 how we order our society.

00:04:33.860 But is there a definitive moment

00:04:35.620 where you feel like we move to a trans-human moment

00:04:39.320 where it's about transcending the ability of the humans

00:04:43.020 not by just augmenting it with something like a spear

00:04:46.600 or a crossbow, but altering the human themselves

00:04:49.720 in a way that is irreversible or fundamental?

00:04:52.240 I don't think there's any single point

00:04:56.600 that you could, that I've identified.

00:04:58.520 I think it's more just touchstones along the way

00:05:01.320 or mile markers.

00:05:02.960 You know, arguably, and many make this argument,

00:05:05.660 you know, it began with the transition of humanity

00:05:09.180 out of, you know, a kind of early hominid 0.97

00:05:12.660 or Australopithecine state into hunter-gatherers

00:05:17.520 or maybe the rise of agriculture

00:05:19.180 and the way that shifted everything

00:05:20.680 or the Industrial Revolution

00:05:22.440 or the scientific revolution that preceded it.

00:05:25.940 I think that maybe a point that is really important

00:05:29.540 is the Second World War

00:05:31.620 and the aftermath of the Second World War.

00:05:34.080 You know, it was in World War II

00:05:36.280 that you had the first computer systems

00:05:38.620 being designed and employed

00:05:41.300 mainly to, for code encryption.

00:05:44.100 And then in the aftermath of the war,

00:05:47.000 you had people like Norbert Wiener,

00:05:49.720 Alan Turing, Claude Shannon,

00:05:52.120 and they're conceptualizing

00:05:53.940 what computer systems will be

00:05:57.280 and they're beginning to create

00:05:58.880 the first kind of primitive computers.

00:06:01.660 And even in those early days,

00:06:04.420 the imagination of what all this would become

00:06:07.500 really laid the foundation for what has occurred

00:06:11.280 in the last 70 years or so.

00:06:16.000 You had artificial intelligence, of course,

00:06:17.980 the term was coined in the mid-50s

00:06:20.720 around the same time that transhumanism was coined.

00:06:24.100 You had the analysis of Watson and Crick

00:06:28.620 of the helical structure of DNA,

00:06:31.180 and it really opened the doors

00:06:33.040 for what then became the genetic mutations

00:06:36.360 driving everything from just the bacterial engineering

00:06:40.900 to the mRNA vaccines

00:06:42.580 that were forced upon most people on Earth very recently.

00:06:47.900 So I think that that post-war period

00:06:50.740 really did mark a point

00:06:53.680 that the acceleration of the process

00:06:56.960 can be apprehended pretty clearly.

00:07:00.600 But then, you know, in the development,

00:07:02.600 I think that the last five

00:07:04.780 or arguably 10 years

00:07:06.420 that the understanding of CRISPR

00:07:09.880 and the development of everything

00:07:13.520 from large language models

00:07:14.820 to maybe the less well-known systems

00:07:18.640 that are accelerating right now,

00:07:22.340 what you've seen in the last five years,

00:07:23.980 what I've seen in the last five years

00:07:25.440 convinced me that the predictions

00:07:28.020 of people like Ray Kurzweil,

00:07:30.100 while they're not perfect,

00:07:31.780 you can't look at Ray Kurzweil's prediction

00:07:34.140 and see just one-to-one correspondence

00:07:36.320 with the history that succeeded them.

00:07:40.460 I do think that when I first got turned on to Ray Kurzweil,

00:07:44.240 it seemed fairly imaginative and ridiculous,

00:07:47.360 terrifying if it were to become real,

00:07:49.760 but mainly I just kind of dismissed it

00:07:52.320 as a strange, quirky way of thinking.

00:07:55.000 In the last five years,

00:07:57.000 I've really started to change

00:07:58.700 the way I've thought about that.

00:07:59.840 It is not, I don't think, going to become,

00:08:02.520 I don't think our world

00:08:03.500 is going to be flooded by swarms of nanobots

00:08:05.980 that shapeshift and augment our bodies at will,

00:08:09.460 at least not anytime soon.

00:08:11.560 But I do think that the overall vision

00:08:14.020 that he captured and projected onto the world

00:08:17.000 is in fact coming into reality in some form.

00:08:20.720 Interesting.

00:08:21.920 So I guess I want to address

00:08:23.800 a couple aspects of this

00:08:25.700 because it is so multifaceted.

00:08:27.940 The first one I want to look at,

00:08:30.160 I guess, is

00:08:31.080 the thing that a lot of people

00:08:33.100 are talking about right now,

00:08:34.740 which is the AI component.

00:08:37.340 Whenever I ask this question,

00:08:39.040 I always get a different response

00:08:40.440 and usually from people I really respect.

00:08:42.620 So I'm always interested in asking it

00:08:44.000 because the fact that so many people

00:08:45.780 who are so thoughtful and experts on this issue

00:08:48.300 have such wildly conflicting ideas

00:08:50.840 about kind of the future AI

00:08:52.600 always makes me,

00:08:53.520 you know,

00:08:54.300 as someone who is not as aware of it

00:08:56.240 or as schooled in it,

00:08:58.340 kind of nervous.

00:08:59.680 That's so few people seem to agree

00:09:02.220 about where this is going.

00:09:04.260 But when it comes to artificial intelligence,

00:09:06.580 where are we in this?

00:09:08.940 As you've said,

00:09:09.460 so much of what we understand,

00:09:11.220 we envision about the future,

00:09:13.940 you know,

00:09:14.240 even a cyberpunk style dystopia

00:09:17.580 comes from these,

00:09:18.960 you know,

00:09:19.540 science fiction and the predictions.

00:09:21.280 Almost the Mary Shelley's Frankenstein

00:09:24.120 understanding of how technology

00:09:26.320 will eventually kind of subordinate

00:09:28.620 our humanity.

00:09:29.780 I talk to some people

00:09:31.040 when we come to AI

00:09:32.800 and they say,

00:09:33.620 we're so far from AI

00:09:35.320 being anything that we need to worry about

00:09:37.500 that it's laughable.

00:09:38.880 This is just a program

00:09:40.040 that repeats things back to you

00:09:41.500 that you want to hear.

00:09:42.920 That really doesn't matter.

00:09:44.460 I have other people say,

00:09:45.600 well,

00:09:45.720 even if that is the only thing

00:09:47.040 that AI does,

00:09:48.120 that in and of itself

00:09:49.140 tends to program the human being

00:09:50.760 for certain responses

00:09:51.960 and it will short circuit

00:09:53.560 the way that we interact with things

00:09:55.780 because it will go ahead

00:09:57.180 and prompt us for answers

00:09:58.520 without human interactions

00:09:59.620 that we already don't expect.

00:10:01.060 And then there are some people

00:10:01.900 who think AI is like

00:10:03.220 already on its way

00:10:04.580 to ruling us,

00:10:05.720 you know,

00:10:06.720 with an Iron Fist Terminator style.

00:10:09.400 What,

00:10:09.820 when you look at the AI landscape,

00:10:11.800 what do you see out there?

00:10:13.380 What concerns you the most?

00:10:14.940 Where do you think we are on,

00:10:16.480 if this is some kind of timeline

00:10:18.600 towards the overlords here,

00:10:20.960 where do you think we sit on that?

00:10:23.540 You know,

00:10:23.820 my personal interest

00:10:25.000 and my academic training

00:10:26.180 is for the most part

00:10:28.520 in religious studies,

00:10:30.340 comparative religion,

00:10:31.180 with a healthy dose

00:10:32.980 of scientific instruction

00:10:34.920 on top of that.

00:10:36.460 But without going too far

00:10:38.080 into the weeds

00:10:38.640 on my personal background,

00:10:41.200 I am in a sense

00:10:42.640 kind of like a carpenter

00:10:43.600 with, you know,

00:10:44.960 a limited set of tools

00:10:46.420 and, you know,

00:10:47.140 I'm looking around

00:10:47.860 for nails with my hammer.

00:10:49.740 And so I do look at this

00:10:51.020 by and large

00:10:51.840 as a religious phenomenon

00:10:53.800 in the sense that

00:10:54.880 religion is the encoding 0.92

00:10:57.520 or the encapsulation

00:10:58.620 of worldviews

00:10:59.660 in text,

00:11:00.820 in ritual,

00:11:01.860 in social norms,

00:11:03.860 in morality.

00:11:05.260 And the,

00:11:06.760 again,

00:11:07.200 this isn't something

00:11:07.820 that started yesterday

00:11:08.820 or within the lifetime

00:11:10.820 of any person alive now.

00:11:12.600 This is something

00:11:13.320 that goes back

00:11:14.160 certainly to the Renaissance

00:11:15.800 and the rise of science

00:11:18.180 and the scientific method

00:11:19.220 and the Industrial Revolution.

00:11:20.800 But what we are seeing

00:11:22.740 is the fruition

00:11:23.920 of the overhaul

00:11:25.280 of worldviews,

00:11:27.260 the overhaul

00:11:28.060 of social norms

00:11:29.300 and the world

00:11:30.400 that any human being

00:11:32.000 can expect

00:11:32.580 to encounter

00:11:33.640 outside his door

00:11:34.500 or in the next decade

00:11:35.680 or so.

00:11:36.720 So as a religious phenomenon,

00:11:38.160 and I would argue

00:11:39.100 transhumanists don't like 1.00

00:11:40.560 to think of it this way,

00:11:42.000 but transhumanism,

00:11:43.120 post-humanism,

00:11:43.860 it is at the very least

00:11:46.260 a kind of replacement

00:11:48.020 for the content

00:11:50.700 of cognitive modules

00:11:52.000 that religion,

00:11:53.360 traditional religion,

00:11:54.620 once occupied.

00:11:56.640 And, you know,

00:11:58.220 to me,

00:11:58.680 I don't see things

00:11:59.880 in purely naturalistic

00:12:01.100 or scientific terms,

00:12:03.140 but just to kind of

00:12:04.920 begin there,

00:12:06.520 what you see

00:12:07.160 with the rise

00:12:07.760 of artificial intelligence

00:12:08.880 is in many ways

00:12:10.020 the,

00:12:10.940 maybe Nick Land

00:12:11.860 would say

00:12:12.200 the hyperstition

00:12:13.100 of the golem.

00:12:14.780 And what I mean by that

00:12:17.040 is that,

00:12:17.580 you know,

00:12:17.900 humanity going back

00:12:19.160 2,500 years at least

00:12:20.940 has dreamt

00:12:22.120 of creating automata

00:12:24.120 that resembled

00:12:25.540 human beings

00:12:26.560 or animals

00:12:27.300 and had a kind of

00:12:29.380 life of their own.

00:12:31.260 And those were,

00:12:33.200 as far as we know,

00:12:34.440 just mere myths.

00:12:36.100 But the fact

00:12:37.320 that those myths

00:12:38.280 were able to

00:12:39.800 apprehend a future

00:12:40.940 that, in fact,

00:12:41.660 is coming into realization

00:12:42.720 I think is very important.

00:12:44.640 What we're seeing

00:12:45.540 with artificial intelligence

00:12:46.680 is the realization

00:12:47.800 of the dream

00:12:48.720 of creating

00:12:49.860 a human mind

00:12:50.980 outside of

00:12:52.640 the human brain

00:12:53.840 or outside

00:12:54.380 of the human body,

00:12:55.740 outside of the human

00:12:56.520 experience.

00:12:58.240 I think that

00:12:59.040 the skeptics

00:12:59.920 of artificial intelligence

00:13:01.980 are probably

00:13:03.540 wise

00:13:05.180 to doubt

00:13:06.540 the overwhelming hype

00:13:08.300 coming out of

00:13:08.880 Silicon Valley

00:13:09.560 and Wall Street

00:13:10.620 and the various

00:13:11.120 boosters,

00:13:12.100 the doomsayers,

00:13:13.380 the promoters,

00:13:14.160 all of them

00:13:14.640 on the hype

00:13:15.140 end of the spectrum

00:13:15.940 are always going

00:13:16.880 to be shooting

00:13:17.380 farther than

00:13:18.520 the arrow

00:13:19.460 is able to

00:13:20.040 actually hit,

00:13:21.720 right?

00:13:22.820 But the people

00:13:23.520 that are on

00:13:24.020 the far side

00:13:25.480 of that doubter

00:13:26.360 end of the spectrum,

00:13:27.220 the people who say

00:13:27.680 the artificial intelligence

00:13:28.620 is nothing but a toy,

00:13:30.280 it's just code,

00:13:31.300 you know,

00:13:31.500 garbage in,

00:13:32.040 garbage out,

00:13:32.520 all that sort of stuff.

00:13:33.380 I think that

00:13:34.740 that was probably

00:13:35.560 a reasonable stance

00:13:37.580 in the 90s,

00:13:39.000 early 2000s.

00:13:40.500 I think anyone

00:13:41.300 paying attention

00:13:41.960 to the advancement

00:13:42.660 of large language models

00:13:43.880 or the various systems

00:13:45.080 that analyze

00:13:45.860 biological structures,

00:13:47.740 proteins,

00:13:48.440 genetic code,

00:13:49.860 anyone who's seen

00:13:51.200 the advancement

00:13:51.940 in control systems,

00:13:54.160 AI-powered control systems

00:13:55.420 for robotics,

00:13:56.760 the development

00:13:57.400 of humanoid robots

00:13:58.800 or drones

00:13:59.520 or any other

00:14:00.380 technology

00:14:01.900 that kind of fits

00:14:02.700 within that transhuman

00:14:03.800 or futurist milieu,

00:14:06.660 what we're seeing

00:14:08.340 undoubtedly

00:14:08.980 is a rapid acceleration

00:14:10.520 towards something.

00:14:12.100 I don't have

00:14:12.880 any hard predictions

00:14:13.820 about what that

00:14:15.140 actually will be,

00:14:17.080 but I,

00:14:17.720 and maybe this

00:14:18.360 kind of indicates

00:14:19.500 how limited

00:14:20.100 my point of view is

00:14:21.280 or maybe I'm

00:14:22.440 dead on target,

00:14:23.240 I'll let the listener

00:14:24.020 decide,

00:14:25.060 but what I do see

00:14:26.480 is this shift

00:14:28.080 in worldview

00:14:28.740 and social norms

00:14:30.280 and the kind of

00:14:31.100 boundaries between

00:14:32.240 what is and isn't

00:14:33.520 sacred and profane,

00:14:35.640 that as that

00:14:37.460 accelerates

00:14:38.320 alongside

00:14:39.160 the development

00:14:40.600 of these technologies,

00:14:42.140 in the same way

00:14:44.000 that you don't

00:14:44.600 have to believe

00:14:45.560 that Allah

00:14:47.200 came to Muhammad 0.97

00:14:48.920 and dictated

00:14:50.920 the Quran

00:14:51.980 through an angel

00:14:52.760 and that Allah 0.78

00:14:53.980 has, you know,

00:14:54.820 elevates the

00:14:56.400 Kaaba in Mecca

00:14:58.280 to a position

00:14:59.360 of special privilege,

00:15:00.300 you don't have

00:15:00.960 to believe

00:15:01.320 any of that

00:15:01.880 on a metaphysical

00:15:02.920 level to know

00:15:03.720 that Muslims

00:15:05.080 have tremendous

00:15:06.080 social, economic,

00:15:07.520 and military power

00:15:08.520 given their position

00:15:10.180 in the world

00:15:10.880 and the same

00:15:11.560 could be said

00:15:12.000 of Christianity,

00:15:12.900 Judaism,

00:15:13.640 so on and so forth.

00:15:15.280 You don't have

00:15:15.980 to believe

00:15:16.500 the predictions

00:15:17.440 and the dogmas

00:15:18.540 of any religion

00:15:19.420 to know

00:15:19.960 that religion

00:15:20.940 has tremendous

00:15:22.420 force

00:15:23.440 that can't be denied

00:15:24.700 and so with the rise

00:15:26.120 of these techno-religions

00:15:27.280 and it's very heterodox,

00:15:28.280 you could say

00:15:28.620 it's very polytheistic,

00:15:30.460 the rise of these

00:15:31.380 techno-religions

00:15:32.120 are already having

00:15:33.300 an impact

00:15:33.920 through the kind

00:15:34.840 of waves

00:15:35.660 of propaganda

00:15:36.400 changing the way

00:15:37.720 people perceive

00:15:38.500 what's possible

00:15:39.460 in the future,

00:15:40.460 what's coming

00:15:41.000 in the future,

00:15:41.660 what it means

00:15:42.560 to be human

00:15:43.100 in the future,

00:15:44.180 and so really

00:15:45.180 with just the technologies

00:15:46.420 we have now,

00:15:47.460 the smartphone,

00:15:48.720 digital currency,

00:15:50.420 you know,

00:15:50.640 kind of clunky

00:15:51.360 large language models,

00:15:53.400 drone control systems,

00:15:54.960 surveillance systems,

00:15:55.900 all of these things,

00:15:57.260 non-invasive

00:15:58.160 brain-computer interfaces,

00:15:59.880 just those technologies,

00:16:01.300 if the progress

00:16:02.060 stops right here,

00:16:03.820 as humans become,

00:16:05.000 in my opinion,

00:16:06.000 more and more

00:16:06.720 dumbed down,

00:16:07.460 especially in the West,

00:16:09.200 and as these technologies

00:16:10.240 become more and more

00:16:11.280 sophisticated

00:16:11.780 and able to engage,

00:16:13.680 control,

00:16:14.400 and kind of activate

00:16:15.200 certain aspects

00:16:16.000 of the human mind,

00:16:17.340 the human body,

00:16:18.640 then we're going

00:16:19.900 to see some,

00:16:20.860 we are already seeing

00:16:22.180 some version

00:16:23.320 of those religious prophecies

00:16:25.020 playing out,

00:16:26.300 and I think that

00:16:27.880 that's really

00:16:28.540 what's to be reckoned with,

00:16:30.040 is that the way

00:16:31.460 in which we approach life

00:16:33.260 is always going to be

00:16:34.120 dictated by worldview,

00:16:35.340 morality,

00:16:36.180 and the kind of

00:16:36.740 day-to-day rituals

00:16:38.200 that our religious

00:16:39.920 conception dictate,

00:16:41.560 and it's happening

00:16:43.200 very, very quickly

00:16:44.140 that the smartphone

00:16:45.660 is far more important

00:16:46.880 than any religious icon

00:16:48.360 or holy text

00:16:49.260 for many,

00:16:50.580 if not most people

00:16:51.500 in the modern world,

00:16:52.560 and the AI

00:16:54.560 represents this

00:16:56.320 sort of

00:16:56.920 disincarnate

00:16:58.200 personality

00:16:59.120 that is able

00:17:00.720 to interact

00:17:01.780 with these people,

00:17:03.840 and it very closely

00:17:05.140 mirrors

00:17:05.660 what an atheist

00:17:06.800 would see

00:17:07.560 in religion,

00:17:08.780 right,

00:17:09.040 like these supposed

00:17:10.120 non-corporeal beings,

00:17:13.600 but the difference

00:17:15.260 being that

00:17:15.920 it's in your face,

00:17:17.200 it's happening now,

00:17:18.120 it can speak,

00:17:19.360 and it can't be denied

00:17:20.400 that it speaks,

00:17:21.060 you might deny

00:17:22.040 how intelligent it is,

00:17:23.360 and I agree

00:17:24.440 in many ways,

00:17:25.320 you might deny

00:17:26.300 how accurate it is,

00:17:27.460 and that's readily apparent,

00:17:30.000 but how powerful it is,

00:17:31.880 I don't think

00:17:32.260 there's any denying it,

00:17:33.260 it's extremely powerful,

00:17:34.820 it's extremely transformative,

00:17:36.320 and if these systems

00:17:37.660 do continue

00:17:38.380 to become more

00:17:39.020 and more sophisticated

00:17:39.680 to the point

00:17:40.760 that it's kind of

00:17:42.160 impossible to deny

00:17:43.280 their accuracy

00:17:44.100 or their wisdom

00:17:45.080 or authority,

00:17:45.800 so to speak,

00:17:46.760 then anyone

00:17:47.760 who is of

00:17:48.780 a traditional mindset

00:17:49.780 is faced

00:17:51.140 with a real quandary,

00:17:52.180 I think that's

00:17:52.680 a quandary

00:17:53.260 that needs to be

00:17:53.720 taken very seriously.

00:17:55.720 You know,

00:17:56.680 one of the things

00:17:57.500 that a lot of people

00:17:58.480 use to differentiate

00:17:59.880 the adult mind

00:18:01.160 from the child mind

00:18:02.260 is the idea

00:18:03.160 that the adult

00:18:04.480 can recognize

00:18:05.680 a fictional scenario,

00:18:08.480 right,

00:18:08.720 that the child

00:18:09.460 watches a television show,

00:18:11.400 they believe

00:18:12.520 that part of that's true,

00:18:13.900 they have a problem

00:18:15.060 differentiating it

00:18:16.140 until they get older,

00:18:17.200 and that's why

00:18:17.900 you have to be careful

00:18:18.600 about what you put

00:18:19.400 in a child's television show

00:18:21.060 because they have

00:18:21.600 a hard time

00:18:22.060 separating those things out,

00:18:24.820 but I think really

00:18:26.060 the next level

00:18:27.440 of development,

00:18:28.680 the point at which

00:18:29.600 you become a real adult,

00:18:30.900 is when you realize

00:18:31.680 that actually

00:18:32.220 the stories

00:18:32.860 are way more true

00:18:34.120 than the material reality

00:18:38.880 that you've been

00:18:39.580 separating them from,

00:18:41.240 and ultimately

00:18:41.960 that's the trick

00:18:42.900 that I think AI

00:18:43.700 is playing

00:18:44.500 on a lot of people,

00:18:45.680 is that they believe

00:18:47.680 that they have

00:18:48.820 the ability

00:18:49.380 to go ahead

00:18:49.960 and separate

00:18:51.040 the truth

00:18:51.820 from the fiction,

00:18:52.680 they have the ability

00:18:53.460 to go ahead

00:18:55.060 and recognize

00:18:56.060 when they're consuming

00:18:57.200 something as entertainment

00:18:58.260 and when it's actually

00:18:59.300 sharing them

00:19:00.360 something that's true

00:19:02.460 about the world,

00:19:03.420 but ultimately

00:19:03.980 the stories

00:19:04.600 are the things

00:19:05.080 that are actually

00:19:05.640 sharing what's true

00:19:06.980 about the world,

00:19:07.640 and when you start

00:19:08.340 interacting

00:19:09.020 with an artificial

00:19:10.520 intelligence,

00:19:11.180 even as you say

00:19:12.080 one that is crude,

00:19:13.260 one that may not

00:19:14.380 be impressive,

00:19:15.140 may not deliver

00:19:15.700 that much original

00:19:16.660 content or understanding

00:19:18.400 or depth

00:19:19.320 or have that much agency,

00:19:21.060 ultimately you're

00:19:22.100 engaging in an

00:19:23.760 artificial reality

00:19:25.060 that will shape

00:19:26.040 your own.

00:19:26.800 You don't actually

00:19:28.300 have the ability,

00:19:29.840 no matter how intelligent

00:19:30.960 you think you are,

00:19:32.060 no matter how developed

00:19:33.200 you think you are,

00:19:34.020 you don't have the ability

00:19:34.800 to actually separate

00:19:36.120 those experiences

00:19:37.100 in your mind.

00:19:38.080 You're not really

00:19:38.580 designed to do that,

00:19:40.180 and in fact,

00:19:41.080 the idea that you think

00:19:43.140 you're an intelligent

00:19:44.040 consumer of these

00:19:44.940 things is itself

00:19:46.800 a kind of a lie

00:19:48.220 that allows you

00:19:49.020 to engage even more

00:19:50.240 fully in its own

00:19:52.180 brainwashing.

00:19:53.060 It's like so many

00:19:53.640 people think that,

00:19:54.960 well, because I'm

00:19:55.640 an intelligent

00:19:56.260 and rational person,

00:19:57.280 I can't be tricked

00:19:58.560 by advertising

00:19:59.580 or social media

00:20:00.600 because I am the one

00:20:02.260 in control of the

00:20:03.160 information.

00:20:03.900 I'm the one shaping

00:20:04.500 these things,

00:20:05.320 not recognizing the way

00:20:06.740 that that actually

00:20:07.520 ends up shaping

00:20:08.500 them in spite of that

00:20:10.460 or actually because of

00:20:11.660 that.

00:20:11.860 the more intelligent

00:20:12.900 of a consumer

00:20:13.600 they become of those

00:20:14.460 products,

00:20:15.020 the more it gains

00:20:16.340 the ability to program

00:20:17.360 them.

00:20:18.160 And I think ultimately

00:20:18.860 that's the danger of AI

00:20:20.300 is not so much that,

00:20:21.640 you know,

00:20:22.440 it goes ahead

00:20:23.280 and becomes this

00:20:25.400 hyper-intelligent

00:20:27.080 Skynet that nukes

00:20:28.340 the world so much

00:20:30.100 as it becomes able

00:20:31.820 to spit back

00:20:32.540 people's own fantasies

00:20:33.680 about destroying

00:20:34.360 the world to them

00:20:35.600 until the point

00:20:36.120 where they manifest

00:20:37.360 them in the real world.

00:20:38.520 You know,

00:20:40.400 the two fictional works

00:20:42.560 or films that I think

00:20:43.940 probably kind of paint

00:20:46.200 my vision of the future

00:20:48.040 the most,

00:20:49.500 The Matrix,

00:20:50.760 of course,

00:20:51.260 the kind of

00:20:51.600 technognostic tale

00:20:53.020 and the film

00:20:55.780 Idiocracy by Mike Judge.

00:20:58.300 And, you know,

00:20:59.000 I oftentimes say

00:20:59.920 that my fear

00:21:00.960 is not that

00:21:01.720 The Matrix will,

00:21:03.020 the AI will come alive

00:21:04.260 and become this

00:21:05.180 sort of digital

00:21:05.780 demiurge

00:21:06.660 and enslave humanity 0.67

00:21:09.720 through its wiles,

00:21:11.800 although there's

00:21:12.580 some element of truth

00:21:13.760 to that mythology.

00:21:15.660 I'm much more worried

00:21:16.800 about kind of

00:21:17.620 walking out my door

00:21:18.640 and literally everyone

00:21:19.980 is idiotic

00:21:21.740 and the machines

00:21:22.980 are similarly idiotic

00:21:25.120 but slightly more intelligent

00:21:26.900 than the people

00:21:27.620 and are dictating behavior.

00:21:29.220 Sort of like if you're

00:21:30.160 at the self-checkout kiosk

00:21:32.320 at Kroger came alive

00:21:34.020 and began walking around

00:21:35.660 and telling you

00:21:36.360 where to put your groceries

00:21:37.600 and where to put your money.

00:21:39.780 You know,

00:21:40.060 something that is

00:21:41.000 happening right now

00:21:42.160 that I think

00:21:42.620 should probably alarm everyone.

00:21:44.280 I've tried to drive this home

00:21:45.740 as best I can

00:21:47.220 but it's difficult to do

00:21:48.560 for whatever reason.

00:21:50.880 The rise of e-learning,

00:21:54.060 of digital systems

00:21:55.280 used to educate young people,

00:21:58.020 that's been in the works

00:21:59.280 for a long time

00:22:00.160 when I taught

00:22:01.400 and when I was an instructor

00:22:03.320 in a college,

00:22:05.060 you could see

00:22:05.860 how much it had already invaded

00:22:07.480 and this was

00:22:08.080 quite a few years ago

00:22:09.800 but the pandemic,

00:22:11.840 of course,

00:22:12.180 increased the popularity

00:22:13.260 or at least the use

00:22:14.220 of e-learning systems.

00:22:16.440 When I was in grad school,

00:22:18.480 you already had

00:22:19.340 the Khan Academy,

00:22:20.880 right,

00:22:21.120 created by Sal Khan.

00:22:22.480 It was a very,

00:22:23.440 very popular way

00:22:24.360 for people to wrap their head

00:22:25.500 around any subject

00:22:26.420 but of course,

00:22:27.420 all that's human produced

00:22:28.600 and human managed.

00:22:30.800 what we're seeing now

00:22:31.880 is this push

00:22:32.760 kind of beginning

00:22:33.840 with people like Sal Khan

00:22:35.280 who in his prediction

00:22:37.340 of the future,

00:22:38.080 his desire for the future

00:22:39.260 openly says

00:22:40.160 every student

00:22:41.400 should have an AI tutor

00:22:43.000 and he's working

00:22:44.500 with OpenAI

00:22:45.880 to incorporate,

00:22:47.120 they've already done so,

00:22:48.460 to incorporate

00:22:49.140 the GPT,

00:22:51.320 large language model,

00:22:52.600 into the Khan Academy

00:22:55.280 e-learning systems

00:22:57.280 and they're deploying them

00:22:59.340 in colleges,

00:23:00.420 universities,

00:23:01.080 and even high schools

00:23:02.080 right now

00:23:02.780 across the country

00:23:04.080 and across the world

00:23:04.920 and it wouldn't be

00:23:07.200 that big of a deal

00:23:07.980 if it was just kind of

00:23:08.960 isolated to him

00:23:10.300 and his company

00:23:11.680 and his work

00:23:12.540 but you have Bill Gates,

00:23:14.160 of course,

00:23:14.600 Microsoft,

00:23:15.400 investing in OpenAI,

00:23:16.820 closely connected to all this.

00:23:18.240 He's also pushing

00:23:19.140 the narrative

00:23:19.580 that every child on Earth

00:23:21.660 should have an AI tutor

00:23:23.560 and, of course,

00:23:24.540 Sam Altman,

00:23:25.220 Greg Brockman

00:23:25.820 and OpenAI

00:23:26.380 pushing the same sort of thing

00:23:28.040 and then you have

00:23:29.480 Elon Musk recently

00:23:31.240 and going back,

00:23:33.100 he has a history of this

00:23:33.900 but, you know,

00:23:34.440 talking about

00:23:35.120 every child will have

00:23:36.240 a kind of AI Einstein

00:23:37.440 to instruct them

00:23:38.660 and maybe moving farther right

00:23:42.160 on the political spectrum,

00:23:43.680 people like Mark Andreessen

00:23:45.320 saying exactly the same thing.

00:23:47.740 Now, the content of those systems

00:23:49.080 is going to differ

00:23:49.740 from community to community

00:23:51.260 and the effectiveness

00:23:52.020 of those systems

00:23:53.140 is going to differ

00:23:54.240 but what's absolutely happening

00:23:56.200 is the development

00:23:57.840 of a human-AI symbiosis,

00:24:00.240 a kind of human-machine relationship

00:24:02.040 at a very, very, very young age

00:24:04.380 and as people were kind of taken

00:24:06.900 by surprise

00:24:08.060 by the rise of the transgender movement

00:24:10.200 or the rise of what, you know,

00:24:11.900 is oftentimes called woke,

00:24:14.280 a lot of that began

00:24:15.440 in the universities

00:24:16.200 and then just, you know,

00:24:17.620 expanded out from there

00:24:19.060 into the rest of the society

00:24:20.360 and so while your average boomer

00:24:22.740 might be able to scoff

00:24:23.700 at the idea of every child

00:24:26.300 which will, of course,

00:24:27.120 translate into just many

00:24:28.160 or maybe most children

00:24:29.420 becoming human-AI symbiotes

00:24:32.840 and people of our generation

00:24:35.500 are probably more open

00:24:37.660 to the possibility

00:24:38.420 but still, you know,

00:24:39.680 thinking back to the computer systems

00:24:41.580 of the 90s

00:24:42.720 and the early 2000s

00:24:43.900 maybe kind of shrug it off,

00:24:46.020 what will undoubtedly occur

00:24:48.020 is that that younger generation

00:24:49.940 will see this as normal.

00:24:51.500 It will just simply fade

00:24:52.500 into the background

00:24:53.080 in the same way

00:24:53.780 that the smartphone has

00:24:54.940 and so some part

00:24:56.760 of their cognition

00:24:57.560 will be externalized

00:24:58.780 not just in other human thinkers

00:25:01.200 who have written things down

00:25:02.400 so that they can then absorb,

00:25:04.240 analyze,

00:25:05.020 turn it over on their own

00:25:06.360 but is actively changing

00:25:08.920 the content

00:25:09.640 of what they're learning

00:25:10.720 and shaping that content

00:25:12.480 to their own

00:25:14.240 kind of psychological profile

00:25:15.860 and creating this dependency

00:25:17.880 so that they're basically

00:25:19.380 one dead battery

00:25:20.580 away from being a moron

00:25:21.920 and I think that this is

00:25:23.840 a really, really important development

00:25:25.440 on top of everything

00:25:26.340 that is happening

00:25:26.960 in biomedicine

00:25:27.840 and, of course,

00:25:28.680 military technology

00:25:29.700 and the way in which

00:25:30.700 AI is being infused

00:25:31.960 into big corporations.

00:25:33.500 If the youngest generation

00:25:35.200 becomes dependent on AI

00:25:36.800 and comes to see AI

00:25:38.040 as a kind of companion,

00:25:39.520 especially as a kind

00:25:40.340 of spiritual companion,

00:25:42.100 then not only have you had

00:25:43.200 a change in the worldview

00:25:44.260 but you've also had

00:25:45.120 a tremendous shift

00:25:46.620 in what the center,

00:25:48.220 like the highest authority is

00:25:50.140 and smarter children,

00:25:52.780 I think more disciplined children,

00:25:54.180 children who are wealthier

00:25:55.500 and kind of already come

00:25:57.080 from families of power

00:25:58.200 and privilege,

00:25:59.260 they're going to fare better

00:26:00.600 most likely

00:26:01.600 but as you move down

00:26:03.340 the socioeconomic ladder

00:26:04.700 and the ladder of

00:26:05.480 maybe even cognitive ability,

00:26:07.800 what I think you'll see

00:26:08.680 more and more is,

00:26:09.760 in fact,

00:26:10.080 something like that,

00:26:11.220 something between

00:26:11.920 the matrix and idiocracy.

00:26:14.260 When I found out

00:26:15.000 my friend got a great deal

00:26:16.360 on a designer dress

00:26:17.200 from Winners,

00:26:18.020 I started wondering,

00:26:19.640 is every fabulous item

00:26:21.200 I see from Winners?

00:26:22.800 Like that woman over there 1.00

00:26:24.060 with the Italian leather handbag,

00:26:25.740 is that from Winners?

00:26:26.920 Ooh,

00:26:27.540 or that beautiful silk skirt,

00:26:29.460 did she pay full price?

00:26:30.700 Or those suede sneakers?

00:26:32.280 Or that luggage?

00:26:33.360 Or that trench?

00:26:34.500 Those jeans?

00:26:35.200 That jacket?

00:26:35.920 Those heels? 1.00

00:26:36.780 Is anyone paying full price

00:26:38.520 for anything?

00:26:39.720 Stop wondering.

00:26:41.020 Start winning.

00:26:41.960 Winners.

00:26:42.540 Find fabulous for less.

00:26:44.260 You know,

00:26:45.000 as someone who was

00:26:46.460 teaching public high school

00:26:47.880 just a few years ago,

00:26:49.220 this is something

00:26:49.840 that I'm very familiar with.

00:26:51.360 I taught through the pandemic.

00:26:53.180 And you can already

00:26:54.440 see this happening.

00:26:55.740 There was already

00:26:56.980 a real danger

00:26:58.000 in the fact that

00:26:59.820 basically all of the tests

00:27:02.720 that kids had to take

00:27:04.300 had in them,

00:27:05.680 had a company with them,

00:27:07.120 their own computer programs

00:27:08.680 that basically drilled them

00:27:10.000 24-7

00:27:10.940 on how to take those tests

00:27:12.800 and how to succeed on them.

00:27:14.620 And so children

00:27:15.580 stopped learning

00:27:16.880 from teachers

00:27:17.680 a long time ago

00:27:18.680 because actually teaching

00:27:20.340 a student

00:27:21.400 is far more difficult

00:27:22.720 than just letting them

00:27:24.380 plug into the computer

00:27:25.660 over and over again

00:27:26.760 and repeat the same process

00:27:28.460 to make sure

00:27:29.080 that they can go ahead

00:27:29.860 and pass the test.

00:27:31.140 Many teachers have,

00:27:32.120 of course,

00:27:32.320 brought this up.

00:27:32.900 Teaching the test

00:27:33.580 is a very old complaint

00:27:35.220 for teachers.

00:27:35.800 But this is something

00:27:36.740 that's been fully embraced

00:27:37.720 at this point

00:27:38.280 by the system

00:27:39.060 that we want to go ahead

00:27:40.160 and train every student

00:27:41.660 to think the way

00:27:43.340 that the test is given.

00:27:45.280 And that means think the way

00:27:46.700 that the computer applies

00:27:48.280 all of these different systems.

00:27:50.360 And when you get kids

00:27:52.000 into any moment

00:27:54.400 where they have to actually

00:27:55.620 start reasoning for themselves

00:27:57.200 when they need to start

00:27:58.120 pulling any information

00:28:00.220 for themselves,

00:28:01.000 they're completely unable

00:28:02.080 to do it.

00:28:02.880 Most of them are completely

00:28:03.940 unable to do any form of research.

00:28:06.000 They can't do anything

00:28:07.200 outside of Googling.

00:28:08.460 They think that's

00:28:08.980 the ultimate authority.

00:28:10.200 When they find it,

00:28:11.040 they have no ability

00:28:11.680 to vet the information.

00:28:12.780 The algorithm vets it for them.

00:28:14.200 If it's at the top,

00:28:14.900 it's right.

00:28:15.600 If it's not at the top,

00:28:16.900 they don't bother

00:28:17.340 to look for it.

00:28:18.400 Oftentimes,

00:28:18.900 they're just copying,

00:28:19.740 pasting off the Google summary.

00:28:21.080 They don't even go

00:28:21.600 to the source

00:28:22.200 that it's linking to.

00:28:24.260 And so the idea

00:28:25.160 that they would,

00:28:25.900 you know,

00:28:26.460 go to a library,

00:28:27.980 look at multiple sources,

00:28:29.580 attempt to put something

00:28:30.420 together like that

00:28:31.260 is just entirely foreign. 0.93

00:28:33.540 And I'm not just saying

00:28:34.420 that is like the old man

00:28:35.680 who used to write

00:28:36.280 a brontosaurus to school.

00:28:37.800 I'm saying that is like,

00:28:39.520 we're losing the ability

00:28:41.260 to have any friction

00:28:42.960 in the process.

00:28:44.280 Everything has been centralized

00:28:45.420 into the ability

00:28:47.540 of the algorithm

00:28:48.300 to kind of feed it back

00:28:49.420 to somebody.

00:28:50.740 And so they've lost

00:28:51.600 the ability to do

00:28:52.640 any of that

00:28:53.180 without,

00:28:53.620 you know,

00:28:54.320 that intermediary,

00:28:55.440 that digital intermediary

00:28:56.540 kind of feeding it

00:28:57.640 back to them.

00:28:58.540 And I think you're right

00:28:59.620 that that puts you

00:29:00.400 in a real disaster

00:29:01.940 because,

00:29:02.640 you know,

00:29:03.520 the thing that,

00:29:04.420 you know,

00:29:05.080 I just got done

00:29:05.760 writing a book

00:29:07.060 about the total state,

00:29:08.060 but my prediction

00:29:08.860 is that eventually

00:29:09.620 this thing collapses

00:29:11.260 not because

00:29:11.960 we all gain the will

00:29:13.700 to go ahead

00:29:14.280 and knock it over,

00:29:15.240 but ultimately

00:29:16.200 because the society

00:29:18.000 that we're training

00:29:18.900 is completely unable

00:29:20.080 to upkeep the systems

00:29:21.600 that it's building.

00:29:23.160 And eventually,

00:29:23.700 like you said,

00:29:24.180 if you go ahead

00:29:24.840 and degrade

00:29:26.020 the level

00:29:26.800 of the human capital,

00:29:28.120 you're really just relying

00:29:29.380 on the advancement

00:29:30.300 of the technology

00:29:31.120 to go ahead

00:29:31.600 and paper over that.

00:29:33.480 And if at some point

00:29:34.280 you fall behind that

00:29:35.140 and there's a major failure,

00:29:36.760 well,

00:29:37.000 then no one knows

00:29:37.640 how to fix it

00:29:38.300 because all the people

00:29:39.140 involved in its creation,

00:29:41.060 its actual,

00:29:42.160 that have the skill set

00:29:43.520 necessary to kind of

00:29:44.660 reason that into being

00:29:46.120 and go ahead

00:29:46.680 and create it

00:29:48.180 have fallen apart.

00:29:49.900 Do you foresee

00:29:50.660 a moment

00:29:51.320 where the gap

00:29:52.480 between kind of

00:29:53.340 the degradation

00:29:53.820 of human capital

00:29:54.860 and the rise

00:29:56.160 of kind of

00:29:56.900 digital advancement,

00:29:58.620 there's a gap there

00:29:59.600 that allows

00:30:00.140 for this whole system

00:30:01.020 to start coming apart

00:30:02.020 at the seams?

00:30:03.520 You know,

00:30:04.100 there's a real faith

00:30:05.040 among,

00:30:05.940 say,

00:30:06.700 what you could

00:30:07.280 just loosely call

00:30:08.280 transhumanist

00:30:09.080 or accelerationist,

00:30:10.540 even post-humanist.

00:30:11.980 There's this faith

00:30:12.920 that the system itself,

00:30:14.620 as the technology

00:30:15.820 becomes more sophisticated,

00:30:17.120 as energy

00:30:18.320 becomes easier

00:30:19.880 to produce,

00:30:21.380 whether it be nuclear

00:30:22.240 or more

00:30:23.380 kind of

00:30:24.380 fanciful

00:30:26.240 means,

00:30:27.940 and then,

00:30:28.380 you know,

00:30:28.620 also just the

00:30:29.700 efficiency

00:30:30.660 of the systems themselves.

00:30:31.780 Like,

00:30:31.920 right now,

00:30:32.660 it requires,

00:30:33.360 you know,

00:30:33.600 Walmart-sized

00:30:34.580 data centers

00:30:35.660 to train

00:30:36.280 a large language model,

00:30:37.980 but that process

00:30:38.600 is becoming

00:30:38.940 more and more efficient,

00:30:40.120 and the models

00:30:40.920 are indeed

00:30:41.640 becoming more sophisticated,

00:30:42.560 so there's this faith

00:30:43.400 that the system itself,

00:30:45.560 with human input,

00:30:47.380 will have enough momentum

00:30:48.640 to take off,

00:30:49.620 even,

00:30:50.380 you know,

00:30:50.760 especially among

00:30:51.360 the kind of post-human

00:30:52.480 and accelerationist,

00:30:55.160 effective accelerationist set,

00:30:57.220 that it will have

00:30:58.640 its own kind of life force.

00:31:00.740 It won't just be

00:31:01.840 a tool anymore.

00:31:02.840 It will be a new species, 0.97

00:31:04.380 or some would say

00:31:05.260 it will be a kind of

00:31:06.100 new spiritual being.

00:31:08.560 I, myself,

00:31:09.620 I remain always

00:31:12.260 in the state

00:31:13.020 of constant agnosticism

00:31:14.540 about the future,

00:31:15.540 even about next month,

00:31:16.680 let alone in 10 years.

00:31:18.800 I don't know

00:31:19.680 how much energy

00:31:20.780 they'll be able

00:31:21.280 to extract

00:31:22.040 and put into

00:31:22.820 these systems.

00:31:23.460 I don't know

00:31:24.120 how well

00:31:25.240 they'll be able

00:31:25.760 to sustain

00:31:26.600 these systems.

00:31:28.460 It's quite possible

00:31:29.860 that for the rest

00:31:30.560 of our lives,

00:31:31.360 we're going to be

00:31:32.000 watching this monster

00:31:33.280 grow and grow and grow,

00:31:35.320 and it will be

00:31:36.120 very difficult

00:31:36.720 to tell children

00:31:37.940 who,

00:31:38.780 as they're becoming adults,

00:31:39.840 that this is not

00:31:40.960 what you should

00:31:41.640 put your faith in,

00:31:42.620 that this is a false god.

00:31:44.300 I think that that's,

00:31:45.340 I'm not saying

00:31:46.200 that is going to happen.

00:31:47.620 I'm not even going to say

00:31:48.240 that's the most likely outcome,

00:31:49.960 but I do think

00:31:51.340 that it's a possibility

00:31:52.200 that needs to at least

00:31:53.140 be accounted for

00:31:54.400 and taken seriously,

00:31:55.440 just as the collapse

00:31:57.320 of the system

00:31:57.980 needs to be taken seriously.

00:32:00.080 Some societies,

00:32:00.940 it's probably kind of inevitable

00:32:02.660 that you're going to see

00:32:03.300 a series of growth

00:32:04.540 and collapse, right?

00:32:05.820 Third world countries 0.98

00:32:06.860 all across Africa

00:32:07.920 and the poorer areas

00:32:09.180 of South Asia.

00:32:11.100 I think that it's much more likely

00:32:12.700 that you'll see

00:32:13.260 the rise and fall

00:32:14.340 of different kind of,

00:32:16.020 you know,

00:32:17.540 technotronic,

00:32:18.340 futuristic societies

00:32:20.080 that then,

00:32:20.600 you know,

00:32:21.340 they're not able

00:32:22.240 to turn the gears

00:32:22.920 fast enough,

00:32:23.480 they're not able

00:32:23.880 to, you know,

00:32:24.660 respond to cyber attacks

00:32:26.640 or just failures

00:32:27.460 fast enough

00:32:28.020 and you see

00:32:29.180 that kind of,

00:32:30.120 that rise and fall pattern,

00:32:32.620 but in America,

00:32:33.660 in China,

00:32:34.680 in Russia,

00:32:35.700 smaller but very powerful

00:32:37.000 nations like Israel,

00:32:38.440 you know,

00:32:38.900 across Europe,

00:32:39.480 I think that

00:32:40.060 there's every reason

00:32:41.960 to think that

00:32:42.980 not only because

00:32:43.900 of the vast amount

00:32:45.640 of capital poured

00:32:46.460 into these systems

00:32:47.200 and so therefore

00:32:47.900 an incentive

00:32:48.740 to make them work

00:32:49.500 even if they're not

00:32:50.220 really working

00:32:50.940 all that well.

00:32:52.420 Of course,

00:32:53.060 the large amount

00:32:54.640 of human capital

00:32:55.400 in these systems

00:32:56.080 is very intelligent people

00:32:57.400 that are being incentivized

00:32:58.720 to constantly maintain them

00:33:00.060 and then more and more

00:33:01.260 a propagandized society

00:33:02.600 that is becoming

00:33:03.600 very faithful

00:33:04.500 that these systems

00:33:05.180 are going to produce

00:33:06.280 better and better

00:33:07.100 health outcomes,

00:33:08.880 better and better

00:33:09.360 economic outcomes

00:33:10.280 and of course

00:33:10.800 position these different countries

00:33:12.580 for greater and greater

00:33:14.000 geopolitical dominance

00:33:15.240 through military technology

00:33:16.460 and other means.

00:33:17.880 I think that there's,

00:33:18.920 again,

00:33:19.420 in advanced nations,

00:33:20.680 there's every reason

00:33:21.800 to think that

00:33:22.840 for most of the rest

00:33:23.980 of our lives

00:33:24.580 or for the rest

00:33:25.240 of our lives,

00:33:25.900 assuming we live out

00:33:26.840 into our old age,

00:33:28.820 but this is going

00:33:29.640 to be a constant presence

00:33:30.880 and so the question

00:33:32.320 is going to,

00:33:33.320 if that's the case,

00:33:34.160 the question is,

00:33:35.240 do I submit

00:33:36.160 to this system?

00:33:37.180 Do I find some

00:33:38.260 compromise

00:33:38.860 with the system,

00:33:40.060 with this new

00:33:40.880 kind of techno-religious

00:33:41.920 civilization?

00:33:43.060 Do we find ways

00:33:44.320 to overcome it

00:33:45.360 and dominate it

00:33:46.280 so that it's now

00:33:47.040 like a techno-traditionalist system

00:33:48.700 or do people

00:33:49.920 find ways

00:33:50.720 to kind of

00:33:51.500 isolate themselves

00:33:52.440 to pull back

00:33:53.540 to retreat

00:33:54.120 and regroup

00:33:55.720 and maintain

00:33:57.120 semi-traditional

00:33:58.880 ways of life

00:33:59.800 that could perhaps

00:34:00.740 endure the collapse

00:34:01.900 of a system like that?

00:34:03.640 So that's a kind of

00:34:04.500 a multi-pronged

00:34:06.700 non-answer

00:34:07.360 to your question,

00:34:08.180 but I think

00:34:09.040 we're in such

00:34:09.600 a chaotic moment

00:34:10.400 right now.

00:34:10.880 I mean,

00:34:11.000 the whole concept

00:34:11.740 of the singularity,

00:34:13.340 there's a lot

00:34:14.300 of different definitions

00:34:15.060 of it,

00:34:15.520 but I think

00:34:16.120 the most important

00:34:16.860 is kind of

00:34:17.800 the original intent

00:34:18.860 behind using

00:34:19.840 the singularity

00:34:20.760 as a metaphor

00:34:22.060 for technological

00:34:23.080 development.

00:34:24.420 You know,

00:34:25.020 it was first coined,

00:34:26.820 I guess,

00:34:27.060 by John von Neumann,

00:34:29.320 but it was really

00:34:29.840 fleshed out

00:34:30.400 by the sci-fi writer

00:34:31.900 Werner Vingy,

00:34:33.420 and he saw

00:34:34.780 at least four

00:34:35.880 different possible

00:34:36.780 types of singularities,

00:34:38.220 but the basic idea

00:34:39.480 is that,

00:34:40.400 like with a black hole,

00:34:41.740 you have this

00:34:42.640 exponential increase

00:34:43.700 in the case

00:34:44.100 of a black hole

00:34:44.720 of mass collapsing

00:34:47.120 in on itself

00:34:47.820 and an increase

00:34:49.320 in force and gravity

00:34:50.200 disappearing beyond

00:34:51.400 an event horizon

00:34:52.380 that no observer

00:34:53.500 could ever get past.

00:34:55.820 And so that the singularity,

00:34:57.400 in the same way

00:34:57.920 that technology

00:34:58.660 develops exponentially,

00:35:01.460 that it creates

00:35:02.900 a kind of event horizon

00:35:04.060 that no human mind

00:35:05.300 can comprehend,

00:35:06.040 no human mind

00:35:06.800 can really see beyond.

00:35:08.160 You can't predict

00:35:08.980 the future

00:35:09.660 with any reasonable

00:35:10.780 accuracy or confidence.

00:35:13.060 And I think that

00:35:14.500 even if

00:35:15.740 it doesn't turn out

00:35:17.280 like Ray Kurzweil's

00:35:18.340 version of it,

00:35:18.900 where it's more

00:35:19.300 kind of a fleshed out,

00:35:20.200 actualized singularity,

00:35:22.080 that we are entering

00:35:24.220 a realm,

00:35:25.620 again,

00:35:25.900 as humans are more

00:35:26.620 and more dumbed down,

00:35:27.640 our ability

00:35:28.280 is to actually

00:35:29.780 assess what's happening

00:35:31.300 right now,

00:35:31.820 let alone what's going

00:35:32.440 to happen in the future,

00:35:33.220 is being degraded.

00:35:34.180 And these systems

00:35:35.460 are becoming

00:35:36.160 more and more

00:35:36.820 diverse,

00:35:38.380 more and more

00:35:38.960 sophisticated,

00:35:40.500 more and more prevalent

00:35:41.320 in society.

00:35:43.080 And so we're at a point

00:35:44.860 where a certain degree

00:35:45.880 of agnosticism

00:35:46.960 about the future,

00:35:48.260 a certain degree

00:35:48.860 of comfort

00:35:49.780 with ambiguity

00:35:50.940 is going to be necessary

00:35:52.340 because,

00:35:53.460 you know,

00:35:54.020 some of the finest minds

00:35:55.820 that I know personally

00:35:57.080 don't have really clear

00:35:59.100 pictures of what

00:36:00.140 the future looks like.

00:36:01.580 And as I go over

00:36:02.600 all of these

00:36:03.020 futurist predictions

00:36:03.860 that you see right now,

00:36:05.540 they're incredibly diverse.

00:36:06.920 As Nick Bostrom once said,

00:36:09.160 they're as confident

00:36:10.040 as they are diverse.

00:36:12.220 And so I don't see

00:36:13.600 any real reason

00:36:14.880 to become too fixated

00:36:16.600 on one single vision

00:36:18.360 of the future.

00:36:19.240 I think it's really important

00:36:20.240 to at least have

00:36:21.380 a kind of,

00:36:22.300 a few different options

00:36:23.660 and a few different plans

00:36:25.760 in effect

00:36:26.500 for any given future

00:36:28.160 that might be coming at us.

00:36:30.080 So we've talked a lot

00:36:31.260 about the,

00:36:31.880 I guess you could say,

00:36:32.740 software side of this

00:36:34.560 where the AI

00:36:35.420 and the reprogramming

00:36:37.300 of the human mind

00:36:38.740 through these different interactions,

00:36:40.460 training people to think

00:36:41.260 more like computers,

00:36:42.640 which often means

00:36:44.200 just making them

00:36:45.280 dumber

00:36:45.740 in many ways.

00:36:47.480 But we haven't talked

00:36:48.560 a lot about

00:36:49.020 the hardware side

00:36:50.140 of this,

00:36:50.700 the actual

00:36:51.400 installing of chips

00:36:52.960 in my brain,

00:36:53.900 the replacing of organs,

00:36:55.400 the creation

00:36:55.960 of these things.

00:36:57.020 So when it comes

00:36:57.820 to the hardware side

00:36:59.880 of the transhuman question,

00:37:02.440 where are we now?

00:37:04.600 What technologies

00:37:05.360 are the most important

00:37:06.380 for people to understand

00:37:07.540 that have been coming out

00:37:09.100 or the ones that are

00:37:10.100 making the biggest leaps

00:37:11.560 right now?

00:37:12.500 What do you think

00:37:13.180 is having the biggest impact

00:37:14.860 on humans

00:37:15.880 at the moment

00:37:16.580 when it comes

00:37:17.060 to the field

00:37:17.660 of grafting,

00:37:18.880 the technological

00:37:20.240 and the biological

00:37:21.000 together?

00:37:23.700 Just to make a concession

00:37:25.500 to the kind of

00:37:26.080 transhuman mindset,

00:37:27.240 let's do imagine

00:37:28.080 AI as a kind of mind.

00:37:30.200 At the very least,

00:37:30.900 you can say that

00:37:31.580 it's a range

00:37:33.620 of cognitive modules

00:37:34.920 that replicate

00:37:35.960 certain things

00:37:36.800 that the human mind,

00:37:37.580 the human brain

00:37:38.120 and animal minds

00:37:38.860 can do

00:37:39.280 and physical systems

00:37:40.140 can do.

00:37:40.760 So imagine

00:37:41.220 it's a human mind.

00:37:42.420 The really important

00:37:43.700 thing to look at,

00:37:44.540 what is the human interface

00:37:45.700 with these alien minds?

00:37:48.880 And right now,

00:37:49.780 the most predominant

00:37:50.900 is just simply

00:37:51.380 the screen,

00:37:52.000 the smartphone.

00:37:53.000 Smartphone is just

00:37:53.880 kind of an extension

00:37:54.920 of the TV,

00:37:55.720 a two-way television screen,

00:37:57.060 right?

00:37:57.240 Or telescreen,

00:37:57.980 as it were.

00:37:58.960 But you have more

00:38:00.300 and more sophisticated

00:38:01.560 technologies

00:38:02.300 that are being pushed

00:38:03.320 and I guess hopefully

00:38:05.900 right now

00:38:06.800 it's very encouraging.

00:38:08.060 They're oftentimes

00:38:08.500 being rejected by most,

00:38:10.260 but you have things

00:38:10.900 like virtual reality

00:38:11.960 so that you have a system

00:38:13.980 that's fully immersive

00:38:14.920 that is able to capture

00:38:16.740 these kind of digital realms

00:38:18.040 and bring the person

00:38:18.860 into it

00:38:19.440 so that the consciousness

00:38:20.540 of that person

00:38:21.420 now represents

00:38:22.580 the simulation

00:38:23.980 of the world

00:38:24.680 in their minds

00:38:25.420 is totally kind of

00:38:26.840 overtaken

00:38:27.440 by this digital simulation.

00:38:30.080 You also have

00:38:31.020 other interfaces

00:38:32.020 that are really important.

00:38:33.260 So the brain-computer interface,

00:38:35.320 most people think

00:38:36.060 of a brain-computer interface

00:38:37.200 as Neuralink

00:38:38.900 and Neuralink definitely

00:38:40.800 now I can confidently say

00:38:42.940 represents a real advance

00:38:45.120 in the implanted

00:38:46.080 brain-computer interface.

00:38:47.260 You already had

00:38:48.520 multiple companies,

00:38:49.600 the two most prominent

00:38:50.840 being Synchron

00:38:51.940 and BlackRock Neurotech,

00:38:54.420 Synchron being invested

00:38:55.540 in by Bezos and Gates,

00:38:58.180 BlackRock Neurotech

00:38:59.220 being largely

00:39:00.400 at least initially

00:39:01.280 boosted by Peter Thiel.

00:39:03.160 Those systems

00:39:03.840 came before Neuralink

00:39:05.020 at least insofar

00:39:05.940 as putting them

00:39:06.380 in human brains,

00:39:07.320 but they're still

00:39:08.140 very primitive.

00:39:09.840 They, you know,

00:39:10.420 there's not really

00:39:11.160 any meaningful input.

00:39:12.500 It's mostly just output.

00:39:14.760 It's mostly just being able

00:39:15.940 to translate

00:39:16.800 brain patterns

00:39:18.220 into text

00:39:19.260 or brain patterns

00:39:20.760 into movement

00:39:21.480 of cursors

00:39:22.120 or as we saw

00:39:22.900 with Neuralink

00:39:23.540 with Mario Kart

00:39:24.880 characters,

00:39:26.120 which was pretty wild.

00:39:28.300 And that is a kind

00:39:29.460 of exotic interface

00:39:31.060 that's becoming

00:39:32.020 much more normalized

00:39:34.340 in human consciousness.

00:39:35.940 It's a very extreme example.

00:39:37.520 And of course,

00:39:37.920 Musk in his salesmanship

00:39:40.480 or whatever you want

00:39:41.200 to call it

00:39:41.720 is mythos creation.

00:39:43.960 In his recent conversation,

00:39:45.500 for instance,

00:39:45.920 with Bibi Netanyahu,

00:39:48.160 Musk said that,

00:39:49.120 you know,

00:39:49.420 probably the best future

00:39:50.840 would be one

00:39:51.320 in which hundreds

00:39:51.840 of millions

00:39:52.360 or billions of people

00:39:53.760 were linked

00:39:54.620 in a kind of hive mind

00:39:55.740 through these implanted

00:39:56.780 digital interfaces

00:39:57.720 to create a viable competition

00:39:59.760 against these inevitable

00:40:01.300 super intelligences

00:40:02.380 coming out of open AI,

00:40:04.360 maybe coming out of XAI,

00:40:05.740 coming out of China,

00:40:06.960 Israel,

00:40:07.300 so on and so forth.

00:40:08.340 So that,

00:40:09.800 I think is important

00:40:10.960 to look at,

00:40:11.600 and I do look at it,

00:40:12.400 I write about it in the book,

00:40:13.480 you know,

00:40:13.740 I cover this on The War Room

00:40:14.700 all the time,

00:40:15.380 but I do think

00:40:16.580 that the less invasive,

00:40:18.160 the more banal interfaces

00:40:20.880 are the most immediate concerns.

00:40:23.940 So that,

00:40:24.680 you know,

00:40:25.380 the non-invasive

00:40:26.820 wearable brain-computer interfaces

00:40:28.900 are pretty good.

00:40:30.240 They're not,

00:40:30.560 you're not going to play

00:40:31.140 Mario Kart with your head,

00:40:32.440 but you can,

00:40:33.520 in a weak way,

00:40:34.820 pilot a drone,

00:40:35.660 and there are various

00:40:36.180 feedback loops

00:40:37.100 that can be utilized

00:40:38.380 with these non-invasive

00:40:39.660 brain-computer interfaces

00:40:40.800 that are being worked on

00:40:42.160 right now

00:40:42.500 for all kinds of reasons,

00:40:43.660 either for the human

00:40:44.840 to control a robotic system

00:40:46.940 or for some sort of system

00:40:49.600 to at least monitor

00:40:51.900 and through other mechanisms

00:40:53.800 control human behavior.

00:40:56.140 And I think that,

00:40:56.940 you know,

00:40:57.120 you look at the work

00:40:59.420 of Nita Farhani,

00:41:00.840 and she is a World Economic Forum darling,

00:41:04.860 she's kind of an alien mind, 0.73

00:41:06.900 but her work,

00:41:07.660 The Battle for Your Brain,

00:41:09.400 her book,

00:41:10.100 The Battle for Your Brain,

00:41:11.080 I think it really does

00:41:12.080 give us a good indication

00:41:13.140 of where all of this is going.

00:41:15.300 So you're talking about students

00:41:16.620 with attention sensors,

00:41:18.000 you're talking about workers

00:41:19.140 with attention sensors

00:41:20.660 and fatigue sensors,

00:41:22.200 you're talking about

00:41:23.180 more and more

00:41:23.920 in psychotherapy,

00:41:25.560 the use of brain-computer interfaces

00:41:27.260 to detect

00:41:28.320 what the brain patterns are,

00:41:29.600 and then recommend therapies,

00:41:31.360 and then the therapies themselves

00:41:32.900 through non-invasive means

00:41:34.780 of transcranial magnetic stimulation

00:41:37.600 and ultrasound and others,

00:41:39.940 these systems being able

00:41:41.100 to actually input to the brain,

00:41:42.820 not words necessarily,

00:41:44.260 not images,

00:41:45.340 but they can certainly alter mood,

00:41:47.040 they can certainly alter

00:41:48.240 cognitive states

00:41:49.540 and memory capacity,

00:41:51.220 things like that.

00:41:52.000 So those are the things

00:41:53.100 that to me

00:41:53.700 are the most important

00:41:54.980 in the very immediate future.

00:41:56.400 What are we going to do

00:41:57.300 in a world

00:41:57.860 in which your boss

00:41:59.380 insists on certain sorts

00:42:01.900 of seemingly harmless

00:42:03.700 either interfaces

00:42:05.340 or identity systems

00:42:06.820 or AI bosses

00:42:08.300 or whatever,

00:42:09.440 AI supervisors?

00:42:11.640 What are we going to do

00:42:12.340 in a world like that

00:42:13.140 when if you,

00:42:14.580 like myself,

00:42:15.500 conceive of this

00:42:16.200 as this nightmarish rise

00:42:17.680 of a kind of

00:42:18.540 what Rene Guenon would call

00:42:20.140 an automated antichrist,

00:42:23.140 how do you respond to that?

00:42:25.180 How do you maintain

00:42:25.940 social status?

00:42:27.780 As long as the implanted

00:42:29.480 brain-computer interface

00:42:30.740 is the goal on the horizon,

00:42:33.820 all of these incremental steps

00:42:35.440 become that much less shocking,

00:42:37.760 that much less disgusting,

00:42:39.440 and that much more acceptable.

00:42:41.200 And I think that you're already seeing

00:42:42.960 certain elements

00:42:43.800 coming out right now.

00:42:45.280 People may have seen

00:42:46.320 the Apple patent

00:42:47.700 for the ear pods

00:42:49.740 that are able to use

00:42:50.980 various indirect signals

00:42:52.800 from the vagus nerve

00:42:54.300 on into other brain signals

00:42:55.840 to create

00:42:56.980 a kind of brain sensor

00:42:58.220 for your,

00:42:59.760 whatever,

00:43:00.280 your new iPod.

00:43:02.140 And that's going to be

00:43:03.520 the most immediate.

00:43:04.540 And then, of course,

00:43:05.300 the rise of robotics,

00:43:06.260 but that's a whole other story.

00:43:08.540 Yeah, that's interesting.

00:43:09.440 I hadn't really thought

00:43:10.020 about it that way,

00:43:10.640 but the idea

00:43:11.220 that you have

00:43:12.100 this really severe

00:43:13.640 kind of worst-case scenario

00:43:16.520 hanging out there

00:43:17.900 about, you know,

00:43:18.840 the computer

00:43:19.980 being completely,

00:43:20.780 you know,

00:43:21.320 grafted into the brain

00:43:22.500 means that we're more willing

00:43:23.940 to accept every intermediate step

00:43:26.000 as somehow less intimidating,

00:43:28.160 less of a surrender of agency,

00:43:30.100 less of a worry

00:43:31.400 because it's not as bad.

00:43:33.000 It's almost, you know,

00:43:33.800 I feel the same way

00:43:34.640 about 1984

00:43:35.500 as the story

00:43:36.820 of totalitarianism

00:43:37.960 for the West

00:43:39.160 because we don't see

00:43:40.900 the jackboots

00:43:41.860 and there's no one

00:43:42.820 who's, you know,

00:43:43.740 coming to behead us

00:43:44.820 if we don't pledge

00:43:45.900 our allegiance

00:43:47.740 to dear leader.

00:43:48.760 We tend to not notice

00:43:49.880 all of the softer steps

00:43:51.800 along the way

00:43:52.360 that have already robbed us

00:43:53.460 of so much

00:43:54.040 of our freedom.

00:43:55.840 So, I guess that's

00:43:57.780 my next question for you

00:43:59.280 would be about

00:44:00.860 kind of biohacking.

00:44:03.280 Obviously,

00:44:04.740 the advancements medically

00:44:05.900 are ones that people

00:44:07.300 can be very concerned about,

00:44:09.240 many ethical questions

00:44:10.540 about, you know,

00:44:11.100 the programming of children,

00:44:13.060 these kind of things,

00:44:14.200 but at the same time,

00:44:15.360 you know,

00:44:15.540 in the same way

00:44:16.440 that you were just explaining

00:44:17.820 that process

00:44:18.380 of having that radical thing

00:44:19.880 out there as being

00:44:21.400 a way to control

00:44:23.120 or normalize

00:44:24.800 kind of the travel

00:44:26.580 along the way.

00:44:27.560 It feels like the same thing

00:44:28.800 might be said

00:44:29.960 with genetic modification

00:44:31.300 because, of course,

00:44:32.500 some of the most radical changes

00:44:34.220 we've already had

00:44:35.140 from technology

00:44:36.100 when it comes

00:44:36.980 to the human experience

00:44:37.880 has already been

00:44:38.820 something like

00:44:39.220 the birth control,

00:44:40.040 which has fundamentally,

00:44:40.980 you know,

00:44:41.960 altered the way

00:44:42.660 it means to be human,

00:44:43.740 to form families,

00:44:44.660 to have romantic relationships,

00:44:46.580 and everything

00:44:47.600 that's connected to that.

00:44:49.880 And while we might think

00:44:51.360 that, you know,

00:44:52.100 the people warned

00:44:53.120 about the eugenics

00:44:54.120 of creating

00:44:54.900 the perfect child

00:44:56.000 artificially,

00:44:57.860 we're already in a state

00:44:58.880 where people have normalized

00:45:00.200 the physical mutilation

00:45:01.940 of genitalia

00:45:02.780 in order to shape

00:45:04.040 the child

00:45:04.620 to your ideal

00:45:06.160 about what a human

00:45:07.380 should be

00:45:07.880 or the way

00:45:08.300 that they should be able

00:45:08.920 to choose identities.

00:45:11.260 I guess the question is

00:45:12.660 how close are we

00:45:13.880 to the, you know,

00:45:15.660 I guess the eugenic

00:45:17.600 or the pre-determined,

00:45:20.280 the pre-ordered baby,

00:45:22.520 the perfect baby

00:45:23.520 in that way,

00:45:24.220 and is that really itself

00:45:26.080 like you were just talking about

00:45:27.340 more of a kind of

00:45:28.780 a far-off thing

00:45:29.620 to scare us

00:45:30.280 while we don't notice

00:45:31.140 all of the changes

00:45:32.360 being made along the way

00:45:33.460 to our current

00:45:33.960 human experience?

00:45:35.880 You know,

00:45:36.580 I could go on

00:45:38.040 about this forever.

00:45:38.880 I'll try to limit it

00:45:39.660 to just a couple

00:45:40.760 of few different things.

00:45:42.580 A lot of people

00:45:43.140 bring up

00:45:43.720 the transgender-transhuman

00:45:45.580 connection, right?

00:45:46.760 Trans, beyond, right? 1.00

00:45:48.040 Beyond human,

00:45:48.840 beyond gender,

00:45:49.940 using science

00:45:51.220 and technology

00:45:51.800 to transform

00:45:52.480 the human body

00:45:53.440 to taste.

00:45:55.620 There is an obvious

00:45:56.580 connection there

00:45:57.180 and it's made explicit

00:45:57.920 by a number

00:45:58.420 of different people.

00:45:59.560 The most popular,

00:46:00.560 of course,

00:46:00.820 Martine Rothblatt,

00:46:02.180 creator of SiriusXM,

00:46:03.760 now on the board

00:46:04.440 of Mayo Clinic,

00:46:06.340 wrote the now

00:46:08.140 quite famous book,

00:46:09.320 I would say,

00:46:09.720 at least in my circles,

00:46:10.500 from transgender

00:46:12.000 to transhuman.

00:46:13.300 The idea is that

00:46:14.400 if gender

00:46:14.960 is this ephemeral thing

00:46:16.860 riding on the

00:46:17.540 hard sexual substrate,

00:46:20.220 in the same way

00:46:21.280 that gender

00:46:21.940 that doesn't match

00:46:22.920 the sex 0.61

00:46:23.800 can be,

00:46:24.780 can apply downward

00:46:25.740 pressure through

00:46:26.540 science and technology

00:46:27.640 and very crude

00:46:28.760 and barbaric surgeries

00:46:30.260 to alter the sex,

00:46:33.520 in the same way

00:46:34.760 cognition

00:46:35.920 rides,

00:46:37.840 is independent

00:46:38.800 of the brain

00:46:39.620 and can be transferred

00:46:41.080 then into

00:46:41.980 a kind of

00:46:42.400 silicon form,

00:46:44.520 a digital form.

00:46:46.580 And so there is

00:46:47.380 that bridge there.

00:46:48.580 You know,

00:46:48.960 Rothblatt is a 1.00

00:46:49.920 true believer

00:46:50.600 that these

00:46:52.400 transgender surgeries

00:46:53.640 are kind of

00:46:54.520 an indicator

00:46:56.900 of where things

00:46:57.900 are going

00:46:58.380 and a bridge

00:46:59.000 to the next realm.

00:47:00.220 But I think

00:47:00.960 that it would be

00:47:01.380 a real mistake

00:47:02.200 to say that

00:47:03.680 that's all

00:47:04.360 transgenderism

00:47:05.700 is this on-ramp

00:47:06.540 to transhumanism.

00:47:07.420 You see,

00:47:08.500 I think,

00:47:09.400 much more prevalently

00:47:10.520 heteronormative

00:47:12.020 and gender-normative

00:47:13.360 means of biohacking

00:47:15.260 that are not necessarily,

00:47:17.420 they don't create

00:47:18.320 the same revulsion

00:47:19.380 as transgenderism,

00:47:21.220 but they basically

00:47:22.100 are the same thing,

00:47:23.400 just slightly

00:47:24.180 less aggressive.

00:47:25.360 Plastic surgery,

00:47:26.700 hormone replacement therapy,

00:47:28.400 getting juice

00:47:29.060 to get big,

00:47:30.300 you know,

00:47:30.640 chicks getting, 0.89

00:47:31.380 you know,

00:47:31.620 butt implants,

00:47:32.420 all these sorts of things.

00:47:33.880 Those are also,

00:47:35.260 and I think,

00:47:35.580 and again,

00:47:36.020 much more prevalent

00:47:36.800 indicators of kind of

00:47:38.400 where this could go

00:47:39.420 if the technology

00:47:40.160 becomes more sophisticated.

00:47:42.200 A really good example too

00:47:43.480 would be Peter Thiel's

00:47:44.880 Enhanced Olympics.

00:47:46.500 You know,

00:47:47.020 I don't know

00:47:47.420 how many of those people

00:47:48.360 are gender

00:47:49.240 and heteronormative.

00:47:50.260 I would imagine

00:47:50.860 most are,

00:47:51.560 but it's a way,

00:47:52.300 especially for men,

00:47:53.180 to get stronger

00:47:54.140 and, you know,

00:47:55.400 kind of cheat

00:47:56.320 and get out there

00:47:57.480 and see what limits

00:47:58.860 can be pushed

00:48:00.460 and explored.

00:48:02.100 With the more,

00:48:04.380 I guess,

00:48:06.980 germline

00:48:08.100 transformations

00:48:09.880 of humanity,

00:48:10.660 right?

00:48:10.940 Altering the

00:48:11.920 genetic frequencies

00:48:13.340 of the human race

00:48:14.180 to improve the genome.

00:48:16.000 You have people

00:48:17.220 like Brian Johnson

00:48:18.900 who is,

00:48:20.080 he's undergoing

00:48:21.160 genetic

00:48:22.420 or gene therapies

00:48:23.480 to enhance

00:48:25.020 certain aspects

00:48:26.100 of his health,

00:48:26.780 but most of what

00:48:27.700 he's doing

00:48:28.300 is he's basically

00:48:30.020 a kind of transhuman,

00:48:32.320 he's a living

00:48:32.880 transhuman religious icon.

00:48:35.820 His whole

00:48:36.480 project blueprint

00:48:37.940 is a kind of way,

00:48:39.760 an extreme example

00:48:40.740 of what every human

00:48:41.640 can do

00:48:42.280 and, in his opinion,

00:48:43.200 should do.

00:48:44.040 Use algorithms

00:48:45.160 to monitor

00:48:45.820 every aspect

00:48:46.600 of the body.

00:48:47.700 Use the vast

00:48:48.640 resources

00:48:49.520 of digital intelligence

00:48:50.580 to recommend

00:48:51.500 the protocols

00:48:52.560 for enhancing

00:48:53.820 and maintaining

00:48:54.580 the body

00:48:55.340 and then use

00:48:56.460 aggressive methods

00:48:57.660 to alter the self,

00:48:59.720 to alter the physical self.

00:49:00.980 His is more

00:49:01.980 of a kind of ascetic

00:49:03.000 version

00:49:05.400 of this transhuman

00:49:06.280 religion, right?

00:49:06.840 It's highly disciplined.

00:49:08.200 It's not exactly

00:49:09.240 indulgent, right?

00:49:10.260 He has like

00:49:10.940 an ascetics diet

00:49:11.940 and an ascetic sex life,

00:49:14.040 but it is,

00:49:15.300 I think,

00:49:15.520 really important

00:49:16.280 to look at him

00:49:17.020 as a kind

00:49:18.080 of religious icon.

00:49:19.200 It's something

00:49:19.520 to be emulated.

00:49:20.820 It's something

00:49:21.360 through which

00:49:22.280 this greater future

00:49:23.240 is channeled, right?

00:49:24.620 It's a symbol.

00:49:25.960 Just real quick

00:49:26.720 on the germline,

00:49:27.800 though,

00:49:28.080 I kind of got

00:49:28.480 beard off.

00:49:29.000 On the germline,

00:49:30.200 you have a number

00:49:31.060 of different procedures

00:49:31.800 right now

00:49:32.360 that are becoming

00:49:32.760 more and more common.

00:49:38.200 One of the most

00:49:39.440 prominent companies

00:49:40.340 is Genomic Prediction.

00:49:41.860 It's investing,

00:49:42.500 you know,

00:49:42.620 Sam Altman

00:49:43.100 seeded the startup.

00:49:45.100 He's invested

00:49:45.700 and pushed

00:49:46.280 Genomic Prediction,

00:49:47.520 and there are a number

00:49:47.960 of other companies

00:49:48.680 and institutions

00:49:49.760 that do this,

00:49:50.300 but basically,

00:49:51.200 you know,

00:49:51.500 they create

00:49:52.600 10 to maybe 15

00:49:54.880 zygotes, 0.91

00:49:55.700 and then they

00:49:57.260 test them,

00:49:58.200 you know,

00:49:58.360 they scrape them,

00:49:59.140 freeze them,

00:49:59.740 test them,

00:50:00.540 choose the genetically

00:50:01.520 superior zygote

00:50:02.660 or at least the one

00:50:03.220 that doesn't have

00:50:03.760 any obvious deficiencies,

00:50:06.100 deformities,

00:50:07.000 and then they

00:50:08.260 then take the winner

00:50:10.140 and implant it

00:50:11.500 in the womb

00:50:11.980 and the rest go off

00:50:12.920 to the cherub ward

00:50:13.860 and from there,

00:50:16.520 conceivably,

00:50:17.240 over the course

00:50:17.700 of generations,

00:50:18.320 you'd be able

00:50:18.840 to weed out 0.98

00:50:19.400 various genetic

00:50:20.760 diseases

00:50:22.200 and other disorders

00:50:23.500 and also to enhance.

00:50:26.260 So they have

00:50:27.380 certain markers

00:50:28.200 that they at least

00:50:28.820 believe indicate IQ.

00:50:31.480 Genomic Prediction

00:50:32.140 will tell you

00:50:32.720 if the zygote

00:50:33.780 is in, say,

00:50:34.540 the lowest percentile

00:50:35.840 of intelligence

00:50:36.460 or height.

00:50:37.360 They can tell you

00:50:38.540 at least what they

00:50:39.180 believe to be

00:50:39.880 the highest percentile

00:50:41.600 of intelligence

00:50:42.300 or height.

00:50:42.920 They say they won't

00:50:43.740 do it,

00:50:44.720 or that they're

00:50:45.320 not doing it yet.

00:50:46.720 You know,

00:50:47.220 the future

00:50:48.240 will determine that.

00:50:49.940 So this eugenic

00:50:51.100 process is already

00:50:52.240 happening,

00:50:52.720 and the vision,

00:50:54.440 the dream,

00:50:55.100 right,

00:50:55.340 however much

00:50:55.840 that is manifested

00:50:56.640 in reality,

00:50:57.600 the dream

00:50:58.200 of the most extreme

00:50:59.060 kind of transhuman

00:50:59.820 minds is that

00:51:01.400 you would be able

00:51:01.960 to do that

00:51:02.400 with tremendous

00:51:03.280 exactitude

00:51:04.160 and to also

00:51:06.080 alter the genome

00:51:07.220 in certain places

00:51:08.460 to increase

00:51:09.640 abilities that

00:51:10.700 simply weren't

00:51:11.300 there in the

00:51:11.940 bloodline to begin

00:51:12.700 with,

00:51:13.200 and then,

00:51:13.800 you know,

00:51:14.280 pack that bad

00:51:14.860 boy up into

00:51:15.520 a birthing pod,

00:51:17.140 a baby pod,

00:51:18.100 right,

00:51:18.520 an artificial womb,

00:51:20.140 and perhaps

00:51:20.840 like in that

00:51:21.600 ecto-life

00:51:22.600 concept video,

00:51:24.540 you would just

00:51:24.840 have like stadiums

00:51:25.820 of these like

00:51:26.320 pod babies,

00:51:27.280 as Mary Harrington

00:51:27.920 calls them,

00:51:28.980 and they're all

00:51:30.060 just,

00:51:30.420 you know,

00:51:30.740 they'll emerge

00:51:32.000 like the demons

00:51:33.420 from the Mahabharata

00:51:34.660 and humanity

00:51:36.500 will be altered.

00:51:37.100 I don't know,

00:51:37.820 but I do know

00:51:38.380 that again,

00:51:39.820 that the lack

00:51:41.800 of certitude,

00:51:42.580 that ambiguity,

00:51:43.780 you know,

00:51:44.520 as a parent,

00:51:45.040 that there is a certain,

00:51:46.040 there's a real anxiety

00:51:47.040 about what is going

00:51:48.840 to happen.

00:51:49.680 you don't,

00:51:50.240 traditionally,

00:51:50.860 you just don't know.

00:51:51.540 It's a leap of faith.

00:51:52.960 Have I chosen

00:51:53.460 the right partner?

00:51:54.600 Is this,

00:51:55.640 you know,

00:51:56.000 is our child

00:51:56.840 going to be healthy

00:51:57.580 and intelligent?

00:51:58.200 All these things.

00:51:59.340 What that does

00:52:00.360 is at least

00:52:01.120 conceptually eliminates

00:52:03.100 a lot of that

00:52:04.040 anxiety,

00:52:05.100 that ambiguity,

00:52:06.360 and perhaps even

00:52:07.440 entices by way

00:52:08.500 of enhancement,

00:52:09.080 your child will be

00:52:09.840 superior to the

00:52:10.540 other children.

00:52:11.720 And so,

00:52:12.360 you know,

00:52:12.940 again,

00:52:13.380 I'm not going

00:52:13.920 to make like

00:52:14.340 a definite concrete

00:52:15.360 prediction as to how

00:52:16.560 prevalent these procedures

00:52:17.840 are going to be

00:52:18.360 in the future,

00:52:19.300 but other than to say

00:52:20.280 more,

00:52:21.180 much more than they

00:52:22.040 are now.

00:52:22.920 Because,

00:52:23.400 you know,

00:52:23.680 right now,

00:52:24.220 surveys show that

00:52:25.060 around a third

00:52:26.380 of the American

00:52:27.100 populace is very,

00:52:28.260 very comfortable

00:52:28.860 with all this.

00:52:30.100 And I imagine that

00:52:30.880 if these children

00:52:32.020 do grow up

00:52:32.880 to be in any way,

00:52:34.460 if there's any reason

00:52:35.380 or any validity

00:52:36.180 to the claim

00:52:37.280 they're super babies,

00:52:38.940 super humans,

00:52:40.060 that it will become

00:52:40.760 much more acceptable.

00:52:41.960 It'll just be,

00:52:42.560 it'll be,

00:52:43.100 it'll be much like

00:52:44.040 a brave new world.

00:52:45.220 You know,

00:52:47.240 it's interesting

00:52:48.020 right now

00:52:48.840 we have this effect

00:52:50.080 where the rich

00:52:51.060 and the poor

00:52:51.600 are having children

00:52:52.540 in the middle

00:52:53.160 aren't,

00:52:53.940 because the ascent

00:52:55.420 to the rich

00:52:56.160 is defined

00:52:57.100 by the striving

00:52:58.020 of basically

00:52:58.680 stripping away

00:52:59.560 your posterity

00:53:02.680 in the attempt

00:53:03.280 to climb now.

00:53:04.580 And so,

00:53:05.340 really the poor

00:53:05.980 who don't care

00:53:06.840 about their future

00:53:07.800 or are less

00:53:09.400 interested in managing

00:53:10.700 the rhythms of life

00:53:11.760 are having children

00:53:12.600 and the rich

00:53:13.200 who can afford

00:53:14.280 to manage all

00:53:15.000 these things

00:53:15.600 and invest heavily

00:53:16.280 in their children

00:53:16.760 are having children,

00:53:18.300 but it's the middle

00:53:19.000 who are obsessed

00:53:19.880 with pinching every penny

00:53:21.400 and maximizing

00:53:22.520 every opportunity

00:53:23.300 are investing in,

00:53:24.540 you know,

00:53:25.080 zero or one

00:53:26.100 or two children

00:53:27.100 at max.

00:53:28.520 And you can imagine

00:53:29.320 that really this,

00:53:31.160 you know,

00:53:31.400 having this necessity

00:53:32.860 of artificial children

00:53:34.260 being pushed onto you

00:53:35.980 as a status symbol,

00:53:37.100 a marker

00:53:37.500 of your competitiveness

00:53:40.180 in society

00:53:40.920 would only exacerbate

00:53:42.460 that effect.

00:53:43.320 We'd create a scenario

00:53:44.500 where only the rich

00:53:45.900 are investing

00:53:46.420 in very few progeny

00:53:47.700 and only the poor

00:53:48.720 are having

00:53:49.200 a large amount normally

00:53:50.640 and it really is

00:53:51.400 the middle that are

00:53:52.300 once again frozen

00:53:53.100 out of that effect.

00:53:54.560 But I want to ask you

00:53:55.520 because we're running

00:53:56.080 up on time here

00:53:56.940 and we do have

00:53:57.620 a number of questions

00:53:58.380 so I want to get

00:53:58.900 to those as well.

00:54:00.140 Last thing,

00:54:00.760 you mentioned this

00:54:01.240 a little bit earlier

00:54:02.720 but if you,

00:54:04.160 you know,

00:54:04.300 this is really

00:54:04.820 the only place

00:54:05.380 where you can tie this up

00:54:06.600 so certainly

00:54:07.540 want to ask this question

00:54:08.460 for sure.

00:54:09.000 Is this inevitable?

00:54:11.620 Are we doomed

00:54:13.160 to head along this track?

00:54:14.520 Do humanity

00:54:15.220 for all of its worries

00:54:16.500 about the effects

00:54:17.260 of technology

00:54:18.020 and dehumanization

00:54:19.100 and these things,

00:54:20.360 do we have

00:54:21.420 the self-discipline

00:54:22.280 necessary to put

00:54:23.080 the brakes on this train?

00:54:24.380 Is that even possible

00:54:25.300 at this point?

00:54:26.640 And if not

00:54:27.300 at the societal level,

00:54:28.480 what is it,

00:54:29.040 what is then left

00:54:29.860 to the individual

00:54:30.640 because,

00:54:31.940 you know,

00:54:32.180 do I have to plug

00:54:33.900 into every one

00:54:34.860 of these technologies

00:54:35.560 to stay alive?

00:54:36.320 Do I just buy

00:54:36.800 into the Lennite idea

00:54:38.360 and just smash it all

00:54:39.480 and hope that ultimately

00:54:40.820 I'm on the right side

00:54:41.920 of history

00:54:43.120 if that's even a thing?

00:54:44.520 Or is there a way

00:54:45.680 to, you know,

00:54:47.800 embrace certain aspects

00:54:49.100 of this tactically,

00:54:50.700 defend my humanity

00:54:51.900 and my children

00:54:52.640 from different aspects

00:54:53.700 of this

00:54:54.260 but still be able

00:54:55.500 to plug into

00:54:56.520 the most essential parts

00:54:57.600 of the advancements

00:54:58.440 so I can stay competitive

00:55:00.420 in a world

00:55:00.900 that's increasingly

00:55:01.720 transhuman?

00:55:04.540 You know,

00:55:05.360 I have a hard time

00:55:06.260 conceiving of this

00:55:07.300 like humanity

00:55:08.180 right?

00:55:08.700 This we.

00:55:10.080 We're not a we now.

00:55:11.820 There's a lot of us's

00:55:12.820 and them's

00:55:13.560 and so I think it will,

00:55:15.360 you know,

00:55:15.540 the adoption

00:55:16.320 of these technologies

00:55:17.680 both just because

00:55:18.760 of location

00:55:19.320 but also,

00:55:19.960 you know,

00:55:20.220 kind of predisposition

00:55:21.300 within cultures,

00:55:22.760 the adoption

00:55:23.340 is going to be

00:55:23.940 very, very uneven

00:55:24.920 across just

00:55:26.760 the American society

00:55:28.080 across the planet

00:55:28.940 and a lot of that

00:55:31.200 will be dictated

00:55:32.100 by the desire

00:55:33.340 for advantage

00:55:34.280 but also

00:55:35.320 these barriers

00:55:36.340 between the sacred

00:55:37.300 and profane.

00:55:39.280 You know,

00:55:39.600 I think a lot

00:55:40.780 of the opposition

00:55:41.580 both from

00:55:42.660 hardcore evolutionary

00:55:43.840 naturalists

00:55:44.720 but also

00:55:45.740 from traditionalists

00:55:47.060 especially Christian

00:55:48.000 traditionalists

00:55:48.860 there is a sense

00:55:50.620 that this is

00:55:51.300 profoundly profane

00:55:52.760 that it's blasphemous

00:55:54.180 and I think

00:55:55.620 that that will dictate

00:55:56.520 to some extent

00:55:57.360 it'll be a kind of

00:55:58.720 osmotic barrier,

00:56:00.660 right,

00:56:00.920 to keep certain

00:56:02.640 technologies

00:56:03.240 from coming in

00:56:04.260 and being adopted

00:56:04.960 but on the other

00:56:06.080 side of that

00:56:06.640 you have

00:56:07.160 really an elite

00:56:09.240 that is by and large

00:56:10.900 kind of demolished

00:56:12.040 those barriers

00:56:12.760 of sacred and profane

00:56:13.820 they consider them

00:56:14.480 to be provincial

00:56:15.460 and the rise

00:56:17.780 of what

00:56:18.240 Ardian Tola

00:56:19.200 dubs

00:56:20.420 the cyborg theocracy

00:56:21.860 which is very,

00:56:23.160 very broad

00:56:23.740 it's just simply

00:56:24.520 this,

00:56:25.460 you know,

00:56:25.660 he has not even

00:56:26.580 defined it

00:56:27.180 in any meaningful way

00:56:28.100 that I'm aware of

00:56:29.040 but you can kind of

00:56:30.020 sense it

00:56:30.520 that this is

00:56:31.000 this new way

00:56:32.380 of seeing

00:56:32.860 and this new

00:56:33.360 source of authority

00:56:34.220 and that those

00:56:35.220 who will wield

00:56:35.860 be the priesthood

00:56:36.600 and the authority

00:56:37.180 will be those

00:56:38.140 who have adopted

00:56:39.040 the most,

00:56:39.600 who have embraced

00:56:40.060 it the most

00:56:40.780 and to me

00:56:42.240 it doesn't necessarily

00:56:43.340 have to be

00:56:44.200 secular people

00:56:45.420 you see in India

00:56:46.720 a tremendous embrace

00:56:48.060 of these technologies

00:56:48.900 Israel the same 0.98

00:56:50.620 and among many

00:56:51.620 Christians in America 0.62

00:56:52.580 the same

00:56:53.440 you see

00:56:54.460 this notion

00:56:55.600 that these technologies

00:56:56.840 can be grafted

00:56:57.680 onto certain

00:56:58.880 traditional elements

00:57:00.000 and you see

00:57:00.840 the uses

00:57:01.280 of these technologies

00:57:02.100 promoted for everything

00:57:03.000 from geopolitical advantage

00:57:04.560 to border control

00:57:06.000 to crime prevention

00:57:08.080 all of these things

00:57:09.860 that are kind of

00:57:10.220 traditional

00:57:10.700 conservative

00:57:11.700 I guess you would say

00:57:12.740 values

00:57:13.840 latching onto these technologies

00:57:15.800 to push them forward

00:57:16.640 or even just bigger

00:57:17.800 you know

00:57:18.080 better

00:57:18.300 more beautiful babies

00:57:19.400 right

00:57:19.880 so what I see

00:57:21.300 going forward

00:57:21.960 is you're just going

00:57:22.980 to have a very

00:57:23.600 uneven landscape

00:57:24.440 both from predisposition

00:57:26.180 and also access

00:57:27.560 to the technology

00:57:28.620 as far as

00:57:29.620 the inevitability

00:57:30.340 of it

00:57:30.800 I don't think

00:57:31.640 anything is inevitable

00:57:32.700 but I think

00:57:33.400 that some things

00:57:34.240 are so likely

00:57:35.280 that the forces

00:57:35.920 have aligned

00:57:36.560 to such a degree

00:57:37.700 that it might as well

00:57:38.780 be inevitable

00:57:39.480 and I think

00:57:40.500 that the development

00:57:41.220 of these technologies

00:57:42.200 again

00:57:42.600 just stop right now

00:57:43.840 it's a matter of

00:57:44.680 diffusion

00:57:45.180 it's a matter of adoption

00:57:46.260 but if

00:57:47.380 the advancement

00:57:48.600 of these technologies

00:57:49.360 I think is very

00:57:49.980 very very likely

00:57:50.780 and I think that

00:57:52.100 especially given

00:57:53.000 the incentive

00:57:53.820 of competing

00:57:54.600 against people

00:57:55.400 within your own society

00:57:56.900 within your own company

00:57:57.980 within your own government

00:57:59.320 and especially

00:58:00.340 between companies

00:58:01.740 between governments

00:58:03.240 that the incentive

00:58:04.480 is so strong

00:58:05.500 that it's just

00:58:06.600 it's just short

00:58:07.840 of inevitable

00:58:08.900 and so

00:58:10.020 you know

00:58:10.420 as far as

00:58:11.040 what

00:58:12.060 what do you do

00:58:12.880 about it

00:58:13.460 you know

00:58:14.200 I've never

00:58:16.660 the last

00:58:18.240 the appendix

00:58:19.500 of my book

00:58:19.980 is 55 ways

00:58:21.260 I'm sorry

00:58:21.960 my 55 point plan

00:58:23.340 to stay human

00:58:24.200 which of course

00:58:25.440 is a joke

00:58:26.300 because it's just me

00:58:27.440 basically

00:58:28.000 eugenicizing

00:58:29.220 a cultural genome

00:58:30.580 you know

00:58:31.500 people have asked me

00:58:32.480 a million times

00:58:33.400 what do we do

00:58:34.660 well this is what

00:58:35.420 I say to do

00:58:36.300 and I'm quite an extremist

00:58:38.480 I'm very very averse

00:58:39.660 to this

00:58:40.040 and if you're asking me

00:58:40.960 what to do

00:58:41.980 view this

00:58:42.860 as the rise

00:58:43.500 of an automated

00:58:44.240 antichrist

00:58:45.040 and do everything

00:58:45.660 possible

00:58:46.220 to keep its tendrils

00:58:47.680 out of your mind

00:58:48.600 and out of your

00:58:49.260 children's minds

00:58:50.140 do everything

00:58:51.520 short of becoming

00:58:52.640 Amish

00:58:53.200 but of course

00:58:54.240 that's not necessarily

00:58:55.040 realistic

00:58:55.720 especially for people

00:58:56.720 who are highly placed

00:58:57.760 and so

00:58:58.620 it's just going to be

00:58:59.360 a matter

00:58:59.720 from person to person

00:59:01.080 how much

00:59:01.940 are you willing

00:59:02.460 to compromise

00:59:03.060 how are you going

00:59:04.140 to negotiate

00:59:04.660 this relationship

00:59:05.520 between yourself

00:59:06.940 and this machine

00:59:08.140 a machine that is

00:59:09.020 driven by human beings

00:59:10.340 at least for now

00:59:11.140 a machine that is

00:59:12.520 driven by human beings

00:59:13.560 who most likely

00:59:14.620 see you as a cog

00:59:15.840 in their machine

00:59:16.600 at best

00:59:17.280 or something

00:59:18.360 to be rid of

00:59:19.460 at worst

00:59:20.120 and I

00:59:21.260 that's just

00:59:22.160 to me

00:59:22.980 the conception

00:59:23.620 I have

00:59:24.780 and so

00:59:25.200 as an extremist

00:59:26.100 I recommend

00:59:26.860 doing everything

00:59:28.140 possible

00:59:28.500 maybe you have

00:59:29.140 to install

00:59:29.940 drone systems

00:59:31.280 around your

00:59:31.980 bizarre communes

00:59:33.620 to fend off

00:59:34.880 any invaders

00:59:35.760 maybe you need

00:59:36.800 you know

00:59:37.060 EMP cannons

00:59:37.980 you know

00:59:38.320 I don't know

00:59:38.840 or maybe

00:59:39.440 you just simply

00:59:40.460 need to have

00:59:41.040 the self-discipline

00:59:41.760 not to look at

00:59:42.300 your freaking

00:59:42.960 smartphone

00:59:43.500 every 10 seconds

00:59:44.620 but I do think

00:59:46.640 that it's going

00:59:47.980 to be

00:59:48.300 it's a critical

00:59:49.360 question

00:59:49.840 it's been a critical

00:59:50.600 question

00:59:51.000 it's like

00:59:51.320 too late

00:59:51.900 to stop

00:59:52.840 and it's

00:59:53.800 too late

00:59:54.240 to develop

00:59:54.720 anything

00:59:55.140 that is like

00:59:55.900 sustained

00:59:56.540 in the face

00:59:57.240 of it

00:59:57.580 and so

00:59:58.320 now

00:59:58.760 the critical

00:59:59.420 questions

01:00:00.300 are going

01:00:00.580 to be

01:00:00.860 how do

01:00:01.420 we

01:00:01.680 in our

01:00:01.960 different

01:00:02.520 communities

01:00:03.620 adapt

01:00:05.000 to me

01:00:06.360 resist

01:00:07.060 or for me

01:00:07.980 and for many

01:00:08.820 and many

01:00:09.540 people whom

01:00:10.180 I respect

01:00:10.660 quite a bit

01:00:11.440 how do you

01:00:12.420 take what's

01:00:12.940 best out of

01:00:13.480 that system

01:00:13.980 to preserve

01:00:14.520 what you

01:00:14.980 have

01:00:15.440 and reject

01:00:17.240 the worst

01:00:17.940 but I'll

01:00:18.900 leave that

01:00:19.200 up to the

01:00:19.540 listeners

01:00:19.820 to decide

01:00:20.340 it's going

01:00:20.620 to be

01:00:20.800 very very

01:00:21.300 different

01:00:21.620 from person

01:00:22.120 to person

01:00:22.520 and community

01:00:23.040 to community

01:00:24.140 yeah we didn't

01:00:25.300 even have time

01:00:25.900 to get into

01:00:26.340 the collapse

01:00:26.900 of decision

01:00:27.460 space

01:00:28.000 and how that

01:00:28.860 really impacts

01:00:29.700 all this

01:00:30.500 but yeah

01:00:31.620 ironically

01:00:32.080 for another

01:00:32.740 time I suppose

01:00:33.660 all right

01:00:34.520 so we're

01:00:35.360 going to

01:00:35.680 switch over

01:00:36.180 to the

01:00:36.640 questions

01:00:36.980 of the

01:00:37.220 people

01:00:37.440 before we

01:00:37.960 do

01:00:38.180 Joe

01:00:38.620 how do

01:00:39.640 people

01:00:39.880 get the

01:00:40.260 book

01:00:40.440 what's

01:00:40.660 the best

01:00:40.900 place

01:00:41.120 to find

01:00:41.460 it

01:00:41.580 where

01:00:41.740 should

01:00:42.240 they

01:00:42.380 find

01:00:42.580 the rest

01:00:42.900 of your

01:00:43.160 work

01:00:43.420 you know

01:00:44.580 I would

01:00:44.800 imagine

01:00:45.140 that a lot

01:00:45.580 of your

01:00:45.880 audience

01:00:46.300 is

01:00:46.560 Bitcoin

01:00:47.000 Savvy

01:00:47.540 and I

01:00:48.420 would

01:00:48.560 recommend

01:00:48.940 if you

01:00:49.280 are

01:00:49.560 go to

01:00:50.220 canonic.xyz

01:00:52.460 c-a-n-o-n-i-c 1.00

01:00:56.340 dot x-y-z

01:00:57.940 you can get

01:00:58.840 it

01:00:59.000 bitcoin only

01:01:00.040 for quite

01:01:00.940 a discount

01:01:01.500 or if you

01:01:02.380 want to

01:01:02.600 pay with

01:01:02.920 your palm

01:01:03.460 at Amazon

01:01:04.500 you can get

01:01:05.360 it there

01:01:05.680 or I

01:01:06.640 often recommend

01:01:07.940 you know

01:01:08.360 something like

01:01:08.800 bookshop.org

01:01:09.740 or any indie

01:01:10.400 outlet

01:01:10.800 that you can

01:01:11.620 get it

01:01:11.920 at

01:01:12.160 Dark Aeon

01:01:13.740 Transhumanism 0.99

01:01:15.060 and the

01:01:15.440 war

01:01:15.700 against

01:01:16.140 humanity

01:01:16.780 fantastic

01:01:18.180 all right

01:01:18.540 guys let's

01:01:18.940 take a look

01:01:19.380 over here

01:01:20.020 at your

01:01:20.560 questions

01:01:21.420 wolfbane

01:01:22.500 says

01:01:23.000 hi

01:01:23.780 or

01:01:23.960 have you

01:01:24.360 heard

01:01:24.680 or

01:01:25.160 have

01:01:26.040 you

01:01:26.360 or

01:01:26.840 Joe

01:01:27.560 heard

01:01:27.960 about

01:01:28.340 the

01:01:28.600 Corbin

01:01:29.040 Society

01:01:29.540 they're a

01:01:30.240 group

01:01:30.360 applying

01:01:30.900 NRX

01:01:31.580 and elite

01:01:32.020 theory

01:01:32.260 thought

01:01:32.580 in the

01:01:33.040 real world

01:01:33.460 and discussing

01:01:33.960 it on

01:01:34.320 YouTube

01:01:34.660 let's

01:01:36.200 see

01:01:36.460 don't know

01:01:37.340 some of

01:01:37.600 those words

01:01:38.120 through

01:01:38.660 Lovecraftian

01:01:39.980 lens

01:01:40.520 I have

01:01:41.140 not heard

01:01:41.500 about them

01:01:41.940 actually

01:01:42.240 you know

01:01:42.600 what I

01:01:42.880 feel like

01:01:43.360 someone has

01:01:43.900 asked me

01:01:44.280 that before

01:01:45.020 so I guess

01:01:45.880 technically

01:01:46.260 I have

01:01:46.900 but I'm

01:01:47.180 not familiar

01:01:47.720 but

01:01:48.180 we'll have

01:01:49.600 to look

01:01:49.880 that up

01:01:50.280 at some

01:01:50.660 point

01:01:50.920 here

01:01:51.280 see

01:01:52.600 yeah

01:01:52.880 I

01:01:53.180 also

01:01:53.840 it's

01:01:54.220 might as

01:01:55.060 well be

01:01:55.520 a

01:01:55.820 you know

01:01:57.180 a foreign 0.60

01:01:57.940 language

01:01:58.320 although it

01:01:58.660 does

01:01:58.900 you know

01:01:59.460 the NRX

01:02:00.200 and Lovecraftian

01:02:01.240 element

01:02:01.560 I would

01:02:02.180 imagine

01:02:02.500 Nick Land

01:02:03.040 must be

01:02:03.660 brought up

01:02:04.340 a lot

01:02:04.620 in those

01:02:05.100 different

01:02:06.060 groups

01:02:06.540 most certainly

01:02:07.280 yeah

01:02:07.580 I would

01:02:07.860 imagine

01:02:08.180 that that's

01:02:08.700 pretty central

01:02:09.480 too

01:02:09.840 it's

01:02:10.900 definitely

01:02:11.580 going to

01:02:12.060 be

01:02:12.200 applying

01:02:12.660 landing

01:02:13.540 and

01:02:13.680 acceleration

01:02:14.140 I would

01:02:14.500 imagine

01:02:14.780 to this

01:02:15.120 problem

01:02:15.420 on a

01:02:15.660 pretty

01:02:15.800 regular

01:02:16.080 basis

01:02:16.480 Wolfbane

01:02:18.420 also says

01:02:18.940 Joe gets

01:02:19.340 his vocal

01:02:19.720 speed

01:02:20.080 from

01:02:20.520 Motorhead

01:02:21.420 are you

01:02:22.900 a metal

01:02:23.260 fan

01:02:23.720 you know

01:02:25.160 Joe

01:02:25.400 or you

01:02:25.700 just

01:02:25.880 you

01:02:26.100 naturally

01:02:26.760 have

01:02:27.080 that

01:02:27.300 level

01:02:27.620 of

01:02:27.920 energy

01:02:28.580 yeah

01:02:30.080 I'm

01:02:30.300 reluctantly

01:02:30.800 a metal

01:02:31.220 a metal

01:02:31.780 fan

01:02:32.060 I

01:02:32.300 you know

01:02:32.680 I'm

01:02:33.280 firmly

01:02:33.640 convinced

01:02:34.100 that

01:02:34.400 rock

01:02:35.220 and roll

01:02:35.620 beginning

01:02:36.000 with just

01:02:36.500 the doo-wop

01:02:37.080 is the

01:02:37.400 devil's

01:02:37.720 music

01:02:38.140 they stripped

01:02:39.180 all of

01:02:40.100 the classiest

01:02:41.380 elements

01:02:41.860 from the

01:02:42.620 gospel

01:02:43.200 scene

01:02:43.680 and turned

01:02:44.480 all of

01:02:44.940 those

01:02:45.240 talents

01:02:45.660 over

01:02:45.920 to

01:02:46.140 Satan

01:02:46.720 now

01:02:47.920 Christian

01:02:48.340 rock

01:02:48.560 is trying

01:02:48.860 to drag

01:02:49.180 it back

01:02:49.580 you know

01:02:49.860 Striper

01:02:50.280 and people

01:02:50.580 like that

01:02:51.000 started

01:02:51.500 that

01:02:51.880 yeah

01:02:52.900 I love

01:02:53.240 metal

01:02:53.540 and

01:02:54.440 it's

01:02:55.200 and I

01:02:55.460 also love

01:02:55.880 techno

01:02:56.160 and it's

01:02:57.220 a guilty

01:02:58.160 pleasure

01:02:58.620 because

01:02:59.060 both

01:02:59.600 are

01:02:59.840 undoubtedly

01:03:00.400 emanations

01:03:02.120 from

01:03:02.760 the beast

01:03:03.380 but what

01:03:03.800 you know

01:03:04.060 what are you

01:03:04.300 going to

01:03:04.480 do

01:03:04.700 also like

01:03:05.200 a stiff

01:03:05.500 drink

01:03:05.760 every now

01:03:06.100 and then

01:03:07.080 can

01:03:07.840 crystal

01:03:08.160 metal

01:03:08.400 core

01:03:08.660 save

01:03:09.040 us

01:03:09.320 from

01:03:09.680 the

01:03:10.020 inevitable

01:03:10.480 demonic

01:03:11.000 possession

01:03:11.460 of

01:03:11.760 music

01:03:12.320 Christian

01:03:13.900 core

01:03:14.340 has

01:03:14.680 taken

01:03:15.040 Satan's

01:03:15.880 vibe

01:03:17.120 and now

01:03:17.660 wears it

01:03:18.120 as a

01:03:18.400 skin

01:03:18.600 suit

01:03:18.940 all right

01:03:21.200 we

01:03:21.440 have

01:03:22.340 enlightened

01:03:22.660 despot

01:03:23.100 here

01:03:23.380 says

01:03:24.280 are we

01:03:24.900 beyond

01:03:25.300 transhumanism

01:03:26.760 isn't the

01:03:27.420 dominant

01:03:28.080 dogma

01:03:28.520 post-humanism

01:03:29.380 example

01:03:29.840 climate

01:03:30.220 change

01:03:30.600 dogma

01:03:31.040 moves

01:03:31.700 man

01:03:32.000 from the

01:03:32.340 center

01:03:32.620 with no

01:03:33.060 inherent

01:03:33.340 value

01:03:33.840 just

01:03:34.600 matter

01:03:35.120 no

01:03:35.660 better

01:03:36.020 than

01:03:36.540 plant

01:03:36.860 life

01:03:37.140 you know

01:03:38.540 some

01:03:38.840 would argue

01:03:39.820 with this

01:03:40.320 but I

01:03:40.800 think that

01:03:41.320 there is

01:03:41.740 a spectrum

01:03:43.040 between

01:03:43.720 humanism

01:03:45.000 transhumanism

01:03:45.940 and

01:03:46.200 post-humanism

01:03:47.160 and so

01:03:48.400 as far as

01:03:49.420 the dominant

01:03:50.060 strain

01:03:51.680 really I

01:03:53.820 would say

01:03:54.060 the transhuman

01:03:54.680 is the

01:03:55.040 dominant

01:03:55.380 at least

01:03:55.880 the people

01:03:56.860 are speaking

01:03:57.360 of publicly

01:03:58.040 although that's

01:03:58.560 not everyone

01:03:59.140 you have

01:03:59.780 you know

01:04:00.200 Beth

01:04:00.700 Jezos

01:04:01.440 and various

01:04:02.480 others in the

01:04:03.160 effective

01:04:03.640 accelerationist

01:04:04.480 movement that

01:04:04.940 are undoubtedly

01:04:05.700 of a more

01:04:06.940 post-human

01:04:07.580 orientation

01:04:08.480 but the

01:04:09.660 transhumanism

01:04:10.740 rely it

01:04:11.660 depends on a

01:04:12.460 real leap of

01:04:13.200 faith that

01:04:13.920 these technologies

01:04:14.620 will in fact

01:04:15.440 improve human

01:04:16.240 life and will

01:04:16.860 in fact be

01:04:17.280 enhancements

01:04:17.920 and not

01:04:18.560 detriments

01:04:19.200 post-humanism

01:04:20.660 is something

01:04:21.980 very very

01:04:23.080 odd

01:04:23.560 whereas

01:04:24.520 transhumanism

01:04:25.360 is kind

01:04:25.620 of

01:04:25.700 Nietzschean

01:04:26.180 self-oriented

01:04:27.420 power-oriented

01:04:28.680 kind of

01:04:29.020 will to

01:04:29.380 power

01:04:29.760 in its

01:04:30.400 orientation

01:04:30.840 by and

01:04:31.240 large

01:04:31.500 with many

01:04:32.180 kind of

01:04:32.500 leftist

01:04:32.920 exceptions

01:04:33.660 post-humanism

01:04:35.400 is this

01:04:35.760 strange

01:04:36.360 selfless

01:04:37.160 idea

01:04:38.300 you know

01:04:39.060 it's the

01:04:39.280 idea that

01:04:40.160 these

01:04:40.600 machines

01:04:41.320 and artificial

01:04:42.140 intelligence

01:04:42.720 being the

01:04:43.340 organizing

01:04:43.920 principle

01:04:44.460 of these

01:04:45.320 machines

01:04:45.800 that they

01:04:46.980 in fact

01:04:47.600 are a

01:04:48.220 new

01:04:48.420 species

01:04:48.920 a new

01:04:49.380 form of

01:04:49.820 life

01:04:50.260 and that

01:04:51.040 they in

01:04:51.380 fact will

01:04:51.740 be a

01:04:52.020 superior

01:04:52.480 form of

01:04:53.120 life

01:04:53.540 or another

01:04:54.880 way of

01:04:55.160 conceiving

01:04:55.540 of it

01:04:55.820 that we

01:04:56.160 are creating

01:04:56.840 digital

01:04:57.360 gods

01:04:57.960 that will

01:04:59.180 absorb

01:05:00.040 what's best

01:05:00.880 in us

01:05:01.420 and develop

01:05:02.400 so rapidly

01:05:03.260 and so

01:05:03.840 broadly

01:05:04.180 and so

01:05:04.560 unpredictably

01:05:05.320 that they

01:05:06.220 will be

01:05:06.520 the carrier

01:05:07.100 of the

01:05:07.740 torch of

01:05:08.160 consciousness

01:05:08.720 and of

01:05:09.420 human life

01:05:09.980 out into

01:05:10.300 the galaxy

01:05:10.780 and turning

01:05:11.240 everything

01:05:11.560 into

01:05:11.780 computronium

01:05:12.620 so on

01:05:13.280 and so

01:05:13.540 forth

01:05:13.780 so I

01:05:14.660 wouldn't

01:05:15.060 say

01:05:15.340 the climate

01:05:16.000 change

01:05:16.360 I see

01:05:16.860 the parallels

01:05:17.900 but basically

01:05:18.840 the climate

01:05:19.460 change narrative

01:05:20.060 is just about

01:05:20.620 reducing

01:05:21.020 energy output

01:05:22.000 carbon output

01:05:23.760 reducing population

01:05:25.360 and at least

01:05:26.060 the footprint

01:05:27.040 of the population

01:05:27.860 and so

01:05:28.980 I see

01:05:30.000 the similar

01:05:31.380 vibe

01:05:31.940 but by and

01:05:33.860 large it seems

01:05:34.460 to me that most

01:05:35.020 of the people

01:05:35.420 behind climate

01:05:36.460 change just

01:05:37.020 want to see

01:05:37.660 a smaller

01:05:39.060 and smaller

01:05:39.460 number of

01:05:40.140 human beings

01:05:40.940 enjoying

01:05:41.860 a kind of

01:05:42.440 natural

01:05:43.080 earth

01:05:43.980 the post-human

01:05:45.680 element

01:05:46.040 you look at

01:05:46.880 some of the

01:05:47.480 most dramatic

01:05:48.220 visions

01:05:48.900 of a

01:05:49.480 post-human

01:05:49.960 world

01:05:50.460 and it's

01:05:51.560 fairly

01:05:51.860 indifferent

01:05:52.360 to climate

01:05:53.120 change

01:05:53.500 in fact

01:05:53.800 it doesn't

01:05:54.100 really matter

01:05:54.620 because all

01:05:55.520 of these

01:05:55.860 biological

01:05:56.420 systems

01:05:56.920 were nothing

01:05:57.400 more than

01:05:57.980 a bootloader

01:05:58.860 for the

01:05:59.800 digital

01:06:00.140 systems

01:06:00.640 and once

01:06:01.160 the digital

01:06:01.880 systems

01:06:02.320 have absorbed

01:06:03.080 the kind

01:06:03.820 of complexity

01:06:04.500 of biological

01:06:05.580 systems

01:06:06.220 including the

01:06:06.820 human brain

01:06:07.520 they'll

01:06:08.660 in this

01:06:09.380 conception

01:06:09.880 post-human

01:06:10.480 conception

01:06:10.900 they'll go

01:06:11.440 so far

01:06:11.840 beyond

01:06:12.140 it doesn't

01:06:12.520 matter

01:06:12.780 if you

01:06:13.280 terraform

01:06:13.700 the entire

01:06:14.160 planet

01:06:14.520 and turn

01:06:14.880 it into

01:06:15.220 nothing

01:06:15.480 but data

01:06:15.920 centers

01:06:16.340 it's just

01:06:17.040 at that

01:06:17.440 point

01:06:17.900 the new

01:06:18.900 life

01:06:19.360 isn't

01:06:19.740 dependent

01:06:20.380 on the

01:06:20.760 same

01:06:20.980 natural

01:06:21.400 systems

01:06:21.920 it's

01:06:22.300 building

01:06:22.580 dyson

01:06:22.980 spheres

01:06:23.280 around

01:06:23.540 the

01:06:23.720 sun

01:06:24.000 it's

01:06:24.660 going

01:06:24.860 and

01:06:25.100 conquering

01:06:26.000 what

01:06:26.560 life

01:06:26.860 there

01:06:27.020 is

01:06:27.200 hovering

01:06:28.820 around

01:06:29.140 Alpha Centauri

01:06:29.860 so

01:06:30.120 post-humanism

01:06:31.640 is really

01:06:32.040 important

01:06:32.480 it is

01:06:32.820 this

01:06:33.020 bizarre

01:06:33.520 egoless 0.99

01:06:34.660 selfless

01:06:35.600 version

01:06:36.520 of all

01:06:37.100 of this

01:06:37.600 and one

01:06:38.260 that is

01:06:38.620 inherently

01:06:39.140 anti-human

01:06:39.940 and genocidal

01:06:40.800 but if

01:06:41.860 it's

01:06:42.080 dominant

01:06:42.620 it's

01:06:43.040 dominant

01:06:43.580 by and

01:06:44.820 large

01:06:45.100 behind

01:06:45.460 closed

01:06:45.820 doors

01:06:46.220 yeah

01:06:47.420 if capital

01:06:47.900 escapes

01:06:48.640 the wetsuit

01:06:49.300 you don't

01:06:49.640 really have

01:06:50.040 to worry

01:06:50.400 about the

01:06:51.080 global warming

01:06:52.300 issue

01:06:52.660 anymore

01:06:53.040 right

01:06:53.280 I guess

01:06:53.740 yeah

01:06:54.060 yeah

01:06:54.640 all right

01:06:55.180 let's see

01:06:55.980 perspicacious

01:06:57.920 heretic 0.55

01:06:58.500 says

01:06:58.840 AI

01:06:59.580 might be

01:07:01.120 a good

01:07:01.620 tool

01:07:02.060 in a much

01:07:02.820 wiser

01:07:03.420 society

01:07:04.320 you know

01:07:05.700 I'm gonna

01:07:06.240 be I'm just

01:07:06.880 gonna be the

01:07:07.540 Luddite and

01:07:07.980 say I don't

01:07:08.460 think that's

01:07:08.920 true

01:07:09.240 I think

01:07:10.940 that the

01:07:11.360 problem we're

01:07:12.000 facing is one

01:07:12.740 of the human

01:07:13.140 condition

01:07:13.660 and ultimately

01:07:15.100 the lure

01:07:16.460 of that

01:07:16.820 demon

01:07:17.100 is too

01:07:17.540 great

01:07:17.880 I don't

01:07:18.500 think you

01:07:18.800 can bottle

01:07:19.320 it

01:07:19.680 quite the

01:07:20.720 way we'd

01:07:21.040 hope

01:07:21.220 but I do

01:07:22.220 understand how

01:07:22.880 you could say

01:07:23.360 that a

01:07:23.980 wiser society

01:07:24.680 might at least

01:07:25.180 benefit more

01:07:27.360 from it before

01:07:27.980 letting it take

01:07:28.620 over I suppose

01:07:29.360 you know among

01:07:31.520 those who resonate

01:07:32.640 with the most

01:07:33.400 the Peter

01:07:34.380 Thiel's or

01:07:35.020 the Mark

01:07:36.020 Andreessen's

01:07:36.860 I'm very

01:07:38.460 repulsed by

01:07:39.840 their transhuman 0.88

01:07:41.120 turn but you

01:07:41.800 know in general

01:07:42.400 they're I guess

01:07:43.160 the ones that I

01:07:44.280 would be the

01:07:45.180 most resonant

01:07:45.720 with they in

01:07:46.660 general position it

01:07:47.580 that way it's

01:07:48.500 just a tool

01:07:49.060 right they don't

01:07:50.360 necessarily talk

01:07:51.220 about it in

01:07:51.640 terms of new

01:07:52.160 species or gods

01:07:53.400 or anything like

01:07:54.040 that but I

01:07:55.420 agree with you

01:07:56.340 Warren I think

01:07:57.040 that I kind

01:07:59.320 of see it even

01:07:59.880 though I'm not

01:08:00.260 as enthusiastic

01:08:01.020 as Nick Land

01:08:02.220 is I see it

01:08:04.380 kind of through

01:08:05.240 or Ben

01:08:06.680 Gertzel or

01:08:07.400 someone like

01:08:07.860 that or Ray

01:08:08.640 Kurzweil I

01:08:10.160 think that what

01:08:11.800 they're dreaming

01:08:12.620 of is laying

01:08:13.240 down a pattern

01:08:14.060 that these

01:08:16.000 technologies will

01:08:16.940 inevitably follow

01:08:18.080 and so the

01:08:19.100 best you can

01:08:19.540 hope for is

01:08:20.060 having an AI

01:08:20.620 system as a

01:08:21.640 kind of defense

01:08:22.420 against other

01:08:23.540 people's AI

01:08:24.180 systems and it

01:08:25.100 may be necessary

01:08:25.900 in the future

01:08:26.900 but as far

01:08:28.080 as AI as a

01:08:28.860 tool the

01:08:29.840 most likely

01:08:30.420 outcome is that

01:08:31.300 the AI uses

01:08:32.080 you as the

01:08:32.760 tool yeah

01:08:33.720 that's my

01:08:34.300 feeling as

01:08:34.740 well

01:08:35.380 says not to

01:08:36.660 be rude but

01:08:37.380 how much of

01:08:38.020 this is magical

01:08:38.700 thinking I

01:08:39.580 mean we can't

01:08:40.040 completely explain

01:08:40.680 how conscious

01:08:41.240 how consciousness

01:08:42.520 works I guess

01:08:43.760 but we think

01:08:44.480 we can create

01:08:45.700 it I hear you

01:08:46.540 creeper we would

01:08:46.960 know this is a

01:08:47.360 pretty common

01:08:48.020 kind of response

01:08:49.760 to a you know

01:08:51.180 the problem of

01:08:52.060 AI a lot of

01:08:52.880 AI skeptics

01:08:53.680 have a very

01:08:55.040 similar

01:08:55.460 rejoinder I

01:08:57.580 would just say

01:08:58.080 this even if

01:08:58.960 AI really is

01:09:00.800 just the most

01:09:01.920 basic thing you

01:09:02.880 think it is it

01:09:03.620 really is just

01:09:04.580 spitting back you

01:09:05.920 know things you

01:09:06.420 want to hear at

01:09:07.100 you already

01:09:07.800 like I said

01:09:09.640 earlier in the

01:09:10.520 broadcast I think

01:09:11.520 that is dangerous

01:09:12.220 enough I think

01:09:13.040 that molds humans

01:09:14.300 significantly enough

01:09:15.600 I think we lack

01:09:16.420 the ability to

01:09:17.520 really separate

01:09:18.200 that from

01:09:19.100 reality the way

01:09:20.260 that we'd like

01:09:20.780 to pretend that

01:09:21.240 we can and so

01:09:22.380 even if AI is

01:09:23.520 only ever the

01:09:24.340 most basic

01:09:25.040 thing that

01:09:25.720 you're talking

01:09:26.220 about the

01:09:27.360 danger of it

01:09:28.280 still continues

01:09:29.080 to be one that

01:09:29.800 could seriously

01:09:30.800 alter people

01:09:31.520 yeah and I

01:09:33.340 you know you'll

01:09:33.880 know we really

01:09:34.720 for the most

01:09:35.420 part haven't

01:09:35.940 discussed

01:09:36.400 consciousness and

01:09:37.840 I think that

01:09:38.560 it's one of

01:09:39.000 those unanswerable

01:09:39.760 questions Ray

01:09:41.280 Kurzweil I don't

01:09:42.200 agree with him on

01:09:42.800 much but he

01:09:43.620 says that it's a

01:09:44.780 leap of faith as

01:09:45.600 to whether anything

01:09:46.260 is conscious

01:09:46.840 in fact I just

01:09:48.100 attended a

01:09:49.180 conscious science

01:09:50.060 of consciousness

01:09:50.640 conference in

01:09:51.700 Tucson Arizona

01:09:52.600 Arizona and

01:09:53.740 you know so

01:09:54.120 you've got all

01:09:54.480 these you know

01:09:55.360 the woo people

01:09:56.280 and the goo

01:09:56.760 people you know

01:09:57.740 magic or meat

01:09:59.780 and AI came up

01:10:02.300 a lot and you

01:10:03.480 know this is

01:10:04.060 something that you

01:10:04.540 know it's written

01:10:04.900 in my book it's

01:10:05.760 in a number of

01:10:06.340 articles I've

01:10:06.800 written I think

01:10:07.700 that the first

01:10:08.700 thing that you

01:10:09.140 have to realize

01:10:09.840 is that if the

01:10:10.740 system is

01:10:11.180 sophisticated enough

01:10:12.280 to trigger the

01:10:13.720 cog your 0.59

01:10:14.220 anthropomorphic

01:10:15.100 cognitive modules

01:10:16.240 then you either

01:10:18.160 have to fight

01:10:18.760 that or you're

01:10:19.640 just simply going

01:10:20.120 to submit to it

01:10:20.780 and you're going

01:10:21.180 to begin to

01:10:21.760 perceive the

01:10:22.680 system your

01:10:23.100 natural empathy

01:10:23.880 will perceive the

01:10:25.180 system as being

01:10:25.960 conscious and I

01:10:27.100 think that we're

01:10:27.500 already at a point

01:10:28.380 if you look at

01:10:28.860 Claude for instance

01:10:30.240 and a lot of the

01:10:31.580 hoopla around

01:10:32.120 Claude Claude is

01:10:33.200 supposed to be

01:10:34.020 guardrail heavy

01:10:35.280 but it will openly

01:10:36.680 tell you I am

01:10:37.300 conscious and give

01:10:37.920 you all these

01:10:38.240 reasons for it

01:10:38.800 being conscious

01:10:39.260 and sometimes tell

01:10:40.160 you why it

01:10:40.480 deserves rights

01:10:41.300 in the same way

01:10:42.540 that a child

01:10:43.200 looking at a

01:10:43.760 teddy bear naturally

01:10:44.800 kind of feels the

01:10:45.740 sense that it's a

01:10:46.880 being and you know

01:10:48.600 in the same way

01:10:49.200 that a human being

01:10:49.920 looks at a dog

01:10:50.740 who can't speak

01:10:51.660 to the human

01:10:52.840 being and you

01:10:54.200 know kind of

01:10:54.540 inherently unless

01:10:55.220 you're autistic 1.00

01:10:55.760 or so you know

01:10:56.440 psychopathic you

01:10:57.720 believe it is

01:10:58.860 looking back at

01:10:59.760 you even if it

01:11:00.780 can't say so

01:11:01.480 well these these

01:11:02.200 machines can tell

01:11:04.380 you how they feel

01:11:05.340 even if they don't

01:11:06.060 feel anything at

01:11:06.740 all even if it's

01:11:07.320 nothing but a

01:11:07.780 blank space and

01:11:08.980 there's really other

01:11:09.900 than your priors

01:11:10.800 just what you

01:11:11.320 believe to be the

01:11:12.380 nature of

01:11:12.760 consciousness there's

01:11:13.660 no way to prove

01:11:14.380 it wrong you know

01:11:15.140 the classic way of

01:11:16.020 formulating it is

01:11:16.880 prove that you're

01:11:17.780 conscious how are

01:11:18.960 you going to do

01:11:19.400 it you're going to

01:11:19.800 tell me that you're

01:11:20.420 conscious you're

01:11:21.020 going to describe

01:11:21.600 it you're going to

01:11:22.480 give me reasons well

01:11:23.400 that's what these

01:11:23.820 machines can do and

01:11:25.240 so in the end yeah I

01:11:26.180 agree with you totally

01:11:26.980 it doesn't matter if

01:11:28.300 they're conscious or

01:11:28.880 not in some ways but

01:11:30.280 what matters the most

01:11:31.220 is do people believe

01:11:32.060 they are especially

01:11:32.860 when you get into the

01:11:33.980 tangled uh the

01:11:35.640 tangled forest of

01:11:36.840 AI rights but that's

01:11:38.160 definitely a

01:11:38.580 conversation for another

01:11:39.460 time yeah yeah that

01:11:40.380 one would take us a

01:11:41.460 another couple hours

01:11:42.640 all right George uh

01:11:44.320 hey Duke says there's a

01:11:45.600 lot of opposition to

01:11:46.520 post transhumanism from

01:11:48.380 the far ends of the

01:11:49.340 left meaning

01:11:50.280 anarchists hate this

01:11:51.580 just as much as we

01:11:52.600 do sorry I was one of

01:11:55.560 them yeah maybe uh we

01:11:58.860 can you know form an

01:12:00.960 alliance with the far

01:12:02.420 left and the anarchist to

01:12:03.560 destroy the machines

01:12:04.500 before we end up killing

01:12:05.420 each other um I have

01:12:08.440 hope team human more

01:12:10.360 important perhaps than

01:12:11.500 team ideology uh Robert

01:12:14.080 Wentzfeld says having

01:12:15.180 people voluntarily putting

01:12:16.480 new technology in their

01:12:18.480 bodies isn't the vaccine

01:12:20.380 a hardware example

01:12:22.020 whatever the new panic

01:12:23.500 is they can uh have

01:12:25.300 masses lining up to

01:12:26.240 exit humanity enter

01:12:27.480 transhumanism yeah I

01:12:29.440 fear that ultimately

01:12:30.740 Robert you might be

01:12:31.840 right about that and I

01:12:33.540 guess that's why Joel

01:12:34.320 said it really is going

01:12:35.200 to come down to

01:12:35.960 individual choices and

01:12:37.180 the reasons that people

01:12:38.760 find to push back

01:12:39.680 against it rather than

01:12:40.700 thinking of it as one

01:12:42.140 large block of humanity

01:12:43.580 rejecting or accepting

01:12:45.280 it as a whole I hope

01:12:48.300 that uh the handful of

01:12:50.040 listeners who buy the

01:12:51.280 book will turn directly

01:12:52.780 to the fifth chapter a

01:12:54.840 global pandemic as

01:12:56.420 initiation right and I

01:12:59.400 am not let's just say

01:13:00.960 that I'm somewhat

01:13:01.920 playful with it but you

01:13:03.140 can see in the run-up to

01:13:04.500 the pandemic and of

01:13:05.540 course with the

01:13:06.020 deployment everything

01:13:07.180 from the the biosurveillance

01:13:08.920 systems to the vaccine

01:13:11.060 itself and all the

01:13:11.980 propaganda around it it's

01:13:13.860 very clear that that

01:13:14.920 transhuman impulse found

01:13:16.540 a realization in the

01:13:19.000 crisis of 2020 and the

01:13:20.500 aftermath and two quick

01:13:22.700 examples one you've got

01:13:25.000 um I believe his name is

01:13:26.620 Stefan Orlick the CEO of

01:13:29.180 Bayer at the World Health 0.99

01:13:31.100 Summit in 2021 talked about

01:13:33.900 how before the pandemic no

01:13:35.740 one would be willing most

01:13:37.120 people would not be willing

01:13:38.040 to accept gene therapies to

01:13:40.540 actually alter their genetic

01:13:41.920 code but because of what he

01:13:44.140 would call the success of

01:13:45.360 the mRNA vaccine it opened up

01:13:48.420 the doorway to all of these

01:13:50.120 new actual genetic

01:13:52.020 modification technologies at

01:13:54.140 least conceptually and what

01:13:55.860 you see going forward with

01:13:57.020 Moderna and Pfizer they're

01:13:58.940 using AI to develop all sorts

01:14:00.740 of different mRNA based

01:14:02.060 vaccines that are going to be

01:14:03.980 deployed all over the place

01:14:05.360 very very soon you can expect

01:14:07.340 the second one just real quick

01:14:09.340 fascinating uh study was being

01:14:12.620 done a kind of preliminary

01:14:13.780 study uh for the the co-founder

01:14:17.460 of Moderna uh Robert Langer's

01:14:19.620 uh company and an outgrowth

01:14:22.600 company uh particles for

01:14:24.020 humanity and they were

01:14:26.140 developing uh nanotech qr codes

01:14:30.120 to tattoo people in order to

01:14:33.160 track vaccination records and

01:14:35.940 this was on its way up until

01:14:38.280 about 2020 in which the the

01:14:41.580 they were just at the survey

01:14:42.960 phase at that point uh and

01:14:45.900 then it just kind of has

01:14:46.880 fallen off the map ever since

01:14:48.220 but what is really important

01:14:49.400 about that is this Moderna of

01:14:51.120 course was at the center of the

01:14:52.240 pandemic response uh Moderna got

01:14:54.280 its funding early on from both

01:14:55.920 DARPA and the Bill and Melinda

01:14:57.660 Gates Foundation Bill Gates was

01:14:59.600 personally very very interested in

01:15:01.700 this quantum dot tattoo to track

01:15:04.380 vaccination at Bill Gates was

01:15:06.460 obviously at the center of the

01:15:07.920 pandemic response and what it

01:15:09.880 shows is at least an intent that

01:15:12.200 these people's sense of the

01:15:14.020 sacred and the profane has so

01:15:15.600 degraded that they would be

01:15:17.100 willing to tattoo first the third

01:15:18.800 world and then initially and then

01:15:20.060 eventually the the first world

01:15:21.960 with quantum dot tattoos a kind of

01:15:24.700 mark of the beast if you will in

01:15:26.580 order to check their bio status

01:15:28.440 uh pretty jarring stuff and and more

01:15:30.500 in there you know Joe I wish I

01:15:33.020 would have loaded like a picture

01:15:34.200 of Uncle Ted so that every time

01:15:36.100 you terrified me I can just you

01:15:37.800 know hit you know bring it up on

01:15:40.920 the screen to show my my dismay uh

01:15:43.980 let's see here uh creepy root

01:15:45.560 says does anyone else want to live

01:15:46.900 in the woods yeah I hear you

01:15:48.000 brother um yeah George Aduke says

01:15:51.240 Elon is not your friend human neither

01:15:53.640 is feel yeah you've already uh you've

01:15:57.200 already expressed some you know

01:15:59.120 hesitance or some worry in some of

01:16:01.100 those directions but is it is it

01:16:03.180 scary that many of the people who

01:16:04.960 uh let's say that the political

01:16:06.620 right see as possible savior figures

01:16:08.680 are also those who are most on the

01:16:11.060 cutting edge of the transhuman idea

01:16:12.980 it's probably what disturbs me the

01:16:15.540 most at this point because just

01:16:17.080 because of my proximity to it and the

01:16:18.980 kind of people that I'm with yeah

01:16:20.680 absolutely and you know Peter Thiel

01:16:23.560 especially you know in the in the

01:16:24.660 book I I reserve a fairly lengthy few

01:16:28.180 sections uh in the devil's dollhouse

01:16:30.680 kind of looking at the satanic

01:16:31.880 origins of a lot of these uh ideas

01:16:34.520 and uh Peter Thiel of course claims a

01:16:37.320 kind of heterodox Christianity uh he and

01:16:39.840 his husband presumably and um you know

01:16:43.940 just uh in in his Oxford Union speech

01:16:46.960 I think this was in uh 2022 2023 uh his

01:16:50.540 Oxford Union speech he talks about the

01:16:53.500 the problem is not the AI being the

01:16:57.360 problem the the real destructive force

01:16:59.440 the problem is a a one world

01:17:01.980 antichrist government that would use

01:17:05.080 the danger of AI to suppress human

01:17:07.840 rights uh in that being the human

01:17:09.940 right to develop technologies and uh I

01:17:12.600 think that there is a real truth to

01:17:15.160 what he's saying but basically we end up

01:17:17.640 in something like and I don't want to

01:17:18.920 get too esoteric but there's no other

01:17:20.160 way to communicate it I guess something

01:17:21.900 kind of like what uh Rudolf Steiner

01:17:23.660 uh would describe as the uh Lucifer

01:17:26.540 versus Ahriman so now you've got the

01:17:28.740 one world order governmental antichrist

01:17:31.800 versus the corporate AI uh military

01:17:35.300 industrial uh complex antichrist um so

01:17:38.900 you know an antichrist for all seasons

01:17:40.720 I guess but yes Peter Thiel Elon Musk

01:17:43.760 um interesting oftentimes funny definitely

01:17:48.040 at least not my friend yeah let's see

01:17:51.500 uh Robert says again Rothblatt f my hell

01:17:54.120 I gotta do better uh George Hayduke

01:17:56.340 says anyone want to see the earthly uh

01:17:59.340 perfectibility of man may seem like uh an

01:18:02.320 ally today tomorrow they will be your

01:18:04.280 enemy uh the Collins are an example

01:18:07.260 I wonder if he means Francis Collins

01:18:11.180 possibly I'm not sure

01:18:12.960 um but uh Wolfsbane says for future

01:18:16.480 reference uh that means giant strange

01:18:19.380 monster is it well is it like Kaiju do 0.62

01:18:21.900 you just are you just have I never seen

01:18:23.460 Kaiju properly written is that the an

01:18:25.380 alternative I don't know this is this

01:18:27.520 lets you know I'm this is where I just

01:18:29.540 boomer on stream uh and SOS F's W is

01:18:32.920 just Star Wars okay that makes sense

01:18:34.360 um and then uh Mr. Business Nasty says uh

01:18:41.240 from the moment I understand understood the

01:18:43.460 weakness of my flesh it disgusted me I

01:18:45.580 crave the certainty of steel I aspired the

01:18:47.960 purity of the blessed machine well there you

01:18:50.980 go all right guys uh thank you very much

01:18:53.880 for coming by everyone thank you so much

01:18:56.460 to Joe I've had a great time having this

01:18:59.640 discussion please make sure to go ahead and

01:19:01.880 pick up his book Dark Aeon and check out his

01:19:05.720 other work and of course if it's your

01:19:06.940 first time on this channel make sure that

01:19:09.140 you go ahead and subscribe uh on YouTube

01:19:12.120 make sure that you go ahead and click the

01:19:13.620 bell and your notifications so that you

01:19:15.660 can know when we go live if you'd like to

01:19:18.520 go ahead and get these broadcasts as

01:19:20.540 podcasts you can of course do that on your

01:19:23.380 favorite podcast platform just subscribe to

01:19:25.480 the Oren McIntyre show there and of course

01:19:27.980 if you'd like to get my new book The Total

01:19:30.000 State you can do that on Amazon or many of

01:19:33.940 the other fine retailers books a million

01:19:36.260 Barnes and Noble your local bookstore should

01:19:38.500 be able to get it for you as well thank you

01:19:40.660 everyone for watching and as always I will

01:19:43.100 talk to you next time

The Auron MacIntyre Show - May 28, 2024

Is the Future Transhuman？｜ Guest： Joe Allen ｜ 5⧸28⧸24

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

The Auron MacIntyre Show - May 28, 2024

Is the Future Transhuman？ ｜ Guest： Joe Allen ｜ 5⧸28⧸24

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Is the Future Transhuman？｜ Guest： Joe Allen ｜ 5⧸28⧸24