The Auron MacIntyre Show - Is the MOU Dead？｜ Guests： Darryl Cooper and Ronald Dodson ｜ 7⧸10⧸26

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00:00:30.000 hey everybody how's it going thanks for joining me this afternoon i've got a great stream with

00:00:41.620 some great guests that i think you're really going to enjoy so believe it or not we may or

00:00:46.460 may not be back at war with iran again it's always an exciting you know thing to speculate about uh

00:00:52.360 can we actually close this deal are we actually going to win this thing are we going to get

00:00:57.400 some kind of peace agreement or are we actually just stuck in another forever war also is israel

00:01:04.440 about to integrate with the american military what does that mean for national sovereignty

00:01:08.840 we're going to talk about all this with daryl cooper with the host of the martyr made podcast

00:01:14.620 daryl thank you so much for coming on of course anytime brother and ron i'm probably writing for

00:01:20.200 your favorite think tank dotson thank you once again for joining us sir oh good to be here

00:01:24.840 all right guys so first things first uh it seemed that the trump administration had made a significant

00:01:32.520 pivot it seemed that the intention was realizing look we're heading towards midterms this did not

00:01:39.700 go as we planned this is going too long gas prices straight of hormones all of the political blowback

00:01:45.920 in one of those moments that is pretty rare for a sitting president it seemed like trump was ready

00:01:51.420 to pivot away from a conflict and look for peace at pretty much any cost he was willing to give up

00:01:57.120 quite a bit uh to ultimately secure this deal now it seems like we're back in a scenario where

00:02:02.780 we're exchanging fire uh what is going on what is the what is the situation here is the mou even

00:02:09.220 salvageable at this point or is the trump administration now locked in to military action

00:02:14.020 matter what go ahead ron well i mean i'm having a heart i don't have any uh i haven't had any

00:02:23.860 visibility in a little bit into the act you know what's going on in the cabinet as far as what

00:02:30.420 specifically triggered this deal other than what we all can assume which is israeli action against

00:02:38.820 hezbollah uh just you know was the was kind of the spark and trump was unable to he's not able

00:02:47.220 to control israel and he certainly can't control uh the iranian response um but something you know

00:02:56.020 eventually ultimately it comes down to his personality and he you know had somebody said

00:03:01.860 something that he'd and he'd had enough so uh do is the is the mou salvageable probably not

00:03:11.140 but i don't think at this point at least i don't think it this touches off into a

00:03:16.820 into anything other than what it was which is going to be some type of north korea south korea

00:03:23.140 long term hey we're we're gonna you know kind of agree to be you know hostile frenemies that's my

00:03:30.500 take at least yeah i think um you know there's a few like key things that you have to you have

00:03:38.260 to be thinking about uh the main one is that you know if you look at the what we learned uh

00:03:48.100 in the early weeks of this war about the survivability of our air defense network

00:03:53.460 uh it was a lot of information we probably um needed to know but honestly would have rather

00:03:59.060 just continued to be ignorant of because we we realized what people who are in that field have

00:04:05.600 known for a long time which is that offense is easier and cheaper than defense and um when you

00:04:13.860 look at the systems that iran was able to successfully target and destroy especially

00:04:19.720 the early warning systems uh you know those are these are billion dollar systems with five to

00:04:28.660 seven-year lead times. So it's not like you can ramp up production and get a new one whenever

00:04:33.500 you want. And they destroyed one of those many THAAD systems. The THAAD system that we brought

00:04:39.060 over from South Korea survived about a week and a half. And so we now know that we're much weaker

00:04:48.660 now than we thought we were going into this thing. And so to restart another round of high-intensity

00:04:56.320 operations with a high-intensity response. I don't think Trump wants that. I know for a fact

00:05:04.020 that, at least at the uniform level in the Pentagon, they've been really pushing the

00:05:12.980 Secretary and the White House hard, telling them essentially, if you want us to continue doing this,

00:05:19.580 let alone escalate, you've got to give us a mission so that we can tell you how and if it's

00:05:24.540 realizable through military means because right now we don't have one and that sounds crazy of

00:05:29.420 course we do right now like at a certain point ron's right it comes down to the personality

00:05:33.760 of the guy making the calls and you know with with with trump it's funny you have like uh

00:05:40.000 in the old days of the soviet union the cia would have their little kremlinology you know desk where

00:05:45.800 they would try to figure out and parse like what they actually mean or like how the federal reserve

00:05:51.640 chairman is expected to go out before Congress and make his report. And he's supposed to be as

00:05:57.340 vague and both sides as possible to say nothing without saying what they should have done is just

00:06:03.860 gone and gotten an actual crazy person and had them go give the briefings and let the criminology

00:06:08.680 or, you know, the economists try to figure that out. Cause that's what we've got with Trump. I

00:06:12.100 mean, you don't know. I mean, you don't know if he's stretching the truth. You don't know if he

00:06:17.020 is completely making something up or you don't know if he's just telling you what he's going to

00:06:21.020 do like all of those things are equally possible at any time and it's it's you drive yourself crazy

00:06:26.800 trying to keep up with him you know so you have to just look at like the brass tacks military

00:06:31.260 reality which is unless we want to go in there with a lot of troops and a serious commitment

00:06:38.480 which nobody does you know uh yeah i i don't think most proponents of you know like pro-israel

00:06:46.620 anti-Iran people like most of them don't want that if only for Daryl how do you even get them there

00:06:51.800 well yeah exactly I mean when we uh when we prepped for uh the second Iraq war we were staging

00:06:57.240 in you know Bahrain and Kuwait for I mean a year beforehand you know bringing all our gear 0.89

00:07:04.320 and they were able to just sit there because right up until the very last second Saddam was hoping he

00:07:09.180 could get out of this you know Iran's not going to allow us to do that um and where yeah like

00:07:13.940 like you said where are we going to stage kuwait and go into iraq and then drive a thousand miles

00:07:18.980 across open or not even open across mountainous terrain to tehran are we going to go take a piece

00:07:24.660 of afghanistan back and like coming from the east and there's you know it it's it's very it's

00:07:31.700 completely untenable and so the question becomes uh you know have we achieved everything that can 0.96

00:07:38.900 be achieved militarily because we have degraded their capability some uh not in a way that's not

00:07:44.500 going to be everybody seems to say uh replaceable in you know in the the near term um but really

00:07:52.500 i mean you know i i do think that as much as we really stepped in it by getting into this thing at

00:07:58.580 all um you know the iranians they lost some negotiating leverage when they agreed to the

00:08:04.740 the ceasefire because when you go back to when it first began when the ceasefire first went into

00:08:10.700 effect quote unquote ceasefire um you know what if you ask yourself at that point in time what is

00:08:18.320 the number one thing trump needs right now and at that point in time trump needed the shooting to

00:08:24.440 stop that's what he needed politically he needed that but militarily we needed that we were running

00:08:28.980 low on interceptors we were having trouble i mean we were we were starting to talk about like at the

00:08:34.520 pentagon they were starting to talk about pulling munitions and air defense systems from seriously

00:08:41.200 important strategic regions you know we took that dad system from south korea and nobody really

00:08:46.800 thought north korea was going to use the opportunity to you but they were talking about we're going to

00:08:51.320 have to take from ukraine we're going to have to do like some things that we really don't want to

00:08:54.940 do and that are really gonna not go over well with the countries we do it too and so that's

00:09:00.360 where we were and trump needed that to take a breath so that uh you know um so that if the war

00:09:08.840 were to reignite or if it were to just continue at a low boil um he would have an opportunity to

00:09:15.040 sort of reframe the narrative as this isn't us this is the iranians this time being intransigent

00:09:19.720 you know that kind of thing and so they gave him the number one thing he wanted right off the bat

00:09:23.720 And so, you know, I think the real question that we have to confront here is, you know, whether our political system, like the incentive structure, and you'd be the best to talk about this, Oren, like the incentives built into our political system really allow a president or even a group of leaders to make a sensible choice.

00:09:52.380 when it's going to be easily demagogued and used against them you know it's it's very very

00:09:59.680 difficult especially in this day and age where i mean look let's just be honest um you know if

00:10:05.480 trump were to really fall out of favor you know if he were to uh lose his momentum and have even

00:10:13.020 a lot of republicans start to turn on the consequences for him are not losing a midterm

00:10:16.820 election you know they're benjamin net yahoo consequences like he might go to jail his kids

00:10:21.640 might go to jail they might lose what they have and so when you put somebody in that position

00:10:26.840 you know you force them to make choices uh based on their own on their own fate and or you know

00:10:32.600 possible fates and so that's where we're at with that and you know i think it's i think it's unlikely

00:10:39.080 that we unless the iranians decide that the ceasefire is not working for them and um they decide

00:10:44.680 their best well i have a frozen daryl there well well i'll just return quickly i'll just jump in

00:10:57.600 real quick daryl was talking about you know basically the idea of blocking force how do you

00:11:02.400 how do you stage without protection and it's impossible the other thing that we've shown

00:11:08.880 in this uh uh in this deal is that oh daryl's back so how long was i gone sorry uh about 20

00:11:16.980 seconds is all okay yeah i was just saying that uh adding to your point about staging

00:11:25.060 the our our force projection uh has has been based you know since world war ii on on uh on

00:11:36.400 you know, on carrier, our carrier battle groups being able to put basically mobile seaborne

00:11:44.820 airports anywhere we want and have great immediate pressure on any coast with good range. Well,

00:11:56.820 the calculus has completely changed because now we have to keep our carrier battle groups

00:12:05.460 further back than our strike packages have without refueling, it's beyond their range.

00:12:14.760 And so you can't keep up a sortie rate without exposing very soft targets to fire.

00:12:24.260 It's a, basically our entire naval projection doctrine has been called into question.

00:12:32.040 And a lot of folks have been saying this time was coming, but we just put on a case study for the world. And that's really, hopefully, over the next, you know, the rest of this administration, the next administration, and so on, we got to get our heads around that.

00:12:50.840 because that impacts, you know, how do you think about your near versus, you know, middle and far

00:12:56.180 broad? How do you think about the Pacific Rim, your entire alliance structure? And that's really,

00:13:05.800 it would have been nice to at least to keep the charade going while we rebuilt our doctrine and

00:13:11.980 our forces to better reflect the new reality. And the new reality is now right in our face.

00:13:19.480 And I saw a commercial sat put a picture up that we were sailing one of our carriers, which one escapes me now, into the Gulf of Oman.

00:13:34.080 So who knows what we're, but it didn't have a strike force attached to it, which is, I don't understand that.

00:13:41.280 I don't know if you saw any of that, Daryl.

00:13:43.420 Maybe I can pull up my iPad and see if I can get something further.

00:13:46.600 But I'm really confused as to the coherence of how we're thinking about these things right now, because I'm not seeing a lot.

00:13:58.360 And they're good people, you know, but I'm really confused as to what we are doing with regards to how policy and doctrine are matching up.

00:14:12.740 yeah this seems like a calamity on several fronts so first you know we don't seem to have a mission

00:14:20.040 as you said uh you know the the the military itself is struggling with you know what they

00:14:25.560 should actually be doing with what the uh you know sequence of actions that need to be taken to

00:14:30.040 reach the different objectives are i think it's pretty clear that in general the mission is run

00:14:35.180 cover for israel while it fights in lebanon like that seems to be more or less the actual mission

00:14:40.320 But obviously, we can't say that out loud. Marco Rubio only gets to make that illusion one time, not twice.

00:14:46.300 When it comes to the military technology, also, this is a big problem, as you're saying, because, you know, you can think of it this way.

00:14:53.940 We spent a lot of time investing in basically Death Star systems, right?

00:14:57.200 Like we poured all of our time and money into like these unbeatable, you know, it's like French knights, right?

00:15:05.300 Like they were an incredible force on the field.

00:15:07.720 You know, nobody can touch them until you get the longbowman.

00:15:10.980 And then all of a sudden, the entirety of the entire idea of investing in a nobility

00:15:15.860 that spends their whole life training to fight and play now makes no sense.

00:15:19.660 But you're still going to get, you know, 50 years of people dying in this kind of combat

00:15:24.260 before people make that adjustment.

00:15:26.240 And so you really want to learn that lesson as quickly as possible.

00:15:29.660 And it seems like in warfare we have hit that moment where the idea of investing just these billions and trillions of dollars into weapon systems that are meant to kind of completely dominate in this one area, that's just no longer efficient in a world of drones and cheaper strike forces, these kind of things. 0.69

00:15:46.420 the ability to leverage economic disruption, Iran understanding that their real target was always 0.52

00:15:52.160 the American economy and never the American military. These are things that when I talk to

00:15:57.040 average people, the average Fox News viewer, they're just blown away because when I talk to 1.00

00:16:01.840 them, they say, well, why don't we just get rid of everything in Iran? I don't understand. We're 0.99

00:16:06.140 the American military. We hit a button and everything explodes. They don't have any realistic

00:16:11.840 understanding of limitations of capacity, or that there might be some kind of trade-off when we

00:16:16.780 invest in these insane weapon systems, that there could be a vulnerability that could be exploited.

00:16:22.220 They just think that, well, we have the best technology with the button, our best guys go

00:16:25.900 do the thing, and it's over. It's very hard for the American public to process the idea that we're

00:16:30.820 in a paradigm shift of technology that might turn our current doctrine into something that is not

00:16:35.980 the best for us in this conflict. Well, in our lifetime, we can think of an example of this.

00:16:41.300 remember the long-term fascination way beyond the useful shelf life of the, you know, Missouri-class

00:16:51.900 battleship, and to the point where still people say, man, if we could just throw some tonnage,

00:17:00.140 you know, if we could park 25 miles offshore and just bombard, and still not being cognizant of

00:17:09.660 the fact that this is, that it's a different world now. And I love aircraft carriers. I think

00:17:16.120 they're cool. I have some of the guys that I'm friends with that I think are the coolest people

00:17:21.340 to walk the earth are naval aviators, especially before, uh, you know, uh, the magic carpet came

00:17:28.420 online. Uh, these guys are, you know, I'm a pilot, but, and these guys are like the, you know,

00:17:35.540 the platonic ideal of, of, uh, you know, technological soldiers to me, it's still,

00:17:43.380 that doesn't, the, the, the amount of cool factor doesn't make up for the fact that the world

00:17:48.900 presses on, history marches on, and it's tough. I mean, Daryl can speak way more cogently about

00:17:54.880 this than, than I can, but, but I think it's, it's just very difficult for people, uh, to, 0.81

00:18:03.040 to especially once you get you know my age and you're the ruling class age it's it's hard to

00:18:10.760 stay mentally flexible especially when it comes to guarding your country's you know

00:18:17.540 treasure and honor and all those things you just get stuck yeah and there was a um you know

00:18:25.480 unfortunately we uh you know one of the factors that got us into the second iraq war was the first

00:18:32.540 Iraq war in the sense that it gave us this sense of invincibility that the U.S. military is so

00:18:38.160 technologically advanced that, you know, there's nothing that it can't do. So, of course, we can

00:18:43.260 go transform the Middle East into a democracy. We're not sure how yet, but who can stop us,

00:18:48.000 right? And the problem, you know, something you wish hadn't happened, to your point,

00:18:54.360 about learning lessons, is that the, you know, the war on terror would have taught us the

00:18:58.180 limitations of that but it really didn't because what it taught us is that counterinsurgency is

00:19:03.880 super hard and going into countries that are just radically different culturally and trying to

00:19:08.060 transform that at gunpoint is really hard and nobody really feels like going through the process

00:19:13.540 necessary to do that's what we kind of learned we did not really learn the lesson that the

00:19:18.240 american military doesn't just have a magic button that says win war on it that you can just go do

00:19:23.820 anything you want and you know and i'm talking in terms of like just just uh basic destructive

00:19:30.320 capacity even right like to give you an example like um a destroyer or a cruiser which is you

00:19:39.920 know those are our two those are the ships that we would we would drive in with a carrier that

00:19:43.880 would fire tomahawk missiles right which are our main strike missile um they'll carry you know

00:19:50.420 because they're primarily air defense platforms.

00:19:52.480 They're there to defend themselves and the carrier and whatever, uh, you know,

00:19:56.260 area of interest they're, they're assigned to. And so if they've got, uh, you know,

00:20:01.020 they probably two thirds to three quarters of the missiles that they have loaded

00:20:05.060 on board or air defense missiles, their SM twos, SM threes, SM sixes for long range

00:20:09.800 stuff. And then they've got some Tomahawks and some, uh, sea sparrow missiles and

00:20:13.440 things like that. But you're talking, even if they're like sort of loaded out

00:20:16.940 for strike packages. You're talking like 40 to 60 Tomahawk missiles. 60 would be a huge amount

00:20:23.680 on a destroyer especially. And so to put that in context, it was like, well, 60 missiles,

00:20:28.480 that sure is a lot, right? Back in, it would have been like 2017, 2018, when Trump struck

00:20:36.460 a Syrian airfield because of chemical weapons, you know, supposedly whatever. He fired 80

00:20:43.240 something tomahawk missiles at that airfield and it was back in service a week later okay so these

00:20:49.340 things are not nuclear weapons they're not these just gigantic massive you know four thousand pound

00:20:55.640 jdams that can go in and destroy a city block they're not that powerful and so if you've only

00:21:01.640 got 40 to 60 of them on a care on a on a destroyer or a cruiser what happens when you run out of 0.91

00:21:08.200 those well another ship comes right you just uh you know just like hit the magazine release and

00:21:13.640 pop a new one in right no you drive all the way back to uh crete or diego garcia if they still

00:21:20.980 have some left and you go through a three or four day long operation with hard hats and cranes and

00:21:27.040 everything else to reload your your mat your missile magazines and so it's a big operation

00:21:31.940 it takes you know back and forth to get to and from if you do go to diego garcia or crete's

00:21:37.220 going to take you you know a week and a half probably if you're really really pushing hard

00:21:43.300 and so it goes to that to the to the point ron was making about uh when you have to run your

00:21:50.260 sorties from so far away you know part of the problem with that is yeah you have to expose

00:21:54.880 uh platforms to enemy fire that are not really you know designed to be you know uh easily

00:22:02.520 defensible, but it's also just slows down your sortie rate so much that it, to the point that

00:22:09.640 it changes, you know, the whole, the whole doctrine of what you can actually accomplish

00:22:13.800 with that method. And so, you know, this is, this is definitely the case with our strike missiles.

00:22:18.740 And when you limit yourself to standoff weapons, as we have, you're just going to run into this

00:22:27.880 basic problem which is that you just cannot destroy enough things fast enough in a country

00:22:32.880 like iran to make them feel like they have no choice but to give give you what you want i mean

00:22:38.740 you just can't do it you can't overwhelm them you can't you can't do any of that there's just not

00:22:43.260 enough firepower the end of the day if you're not willing to drive tanks into their country and put

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00:23:18.000 details. Terms apply. There's just extreme limitations on what you can accomplish with,

00:23:23.480 far away, blow them up stuff. And even if you are willing, which we're not,

00:23:31.540 you've still got to be capable to our earlier point. And I can't imagine a scenario where

00:23:38.960 that capability, again, where's your path? This is the most impenetrable piece of real estate on

00:23:47.220 earth i mean other than alexander who's who's conquered the persians you know on home turf

00:23:54.160 um anyway yeah i mean the only thing that's even remotely plausible is getting turkey to go along

00:24:02.140 with it and letting us do things there but i mean even then that presents massive problems and turkey

00:24:07.100 would never allow us to do it and so well yeah and then yahoo announcing every 10 minutes that

00:24:14.040 he plans to fight turkey is probably not going to help persuade them to you know like i i don't like

00:24:19.100 seeing any of these wars happen innocent people get killed in modern warfare like at a very tragic

00:24:24.600 rate and everything but there is a part of me that would love to see israel pick one with turkey

00:24:29.640 how quick would that be done it depends on how far the turks wanted to take it you know short of the

00:24:37.520 short of short of uh nuclear weapons from israel they could drive tanks into tel aviv i mean it's

00:24:43.400 not a matter of like not accomplishing objectives the turks are a very serious military that trains

00:24:48.880 to fight and if the turks move you got to think there's a big temptation in uh cairo for them to

00:24:58.820 move as well a lot of pressure yeah i mean a lot of pressure i don't know if they would uh and i

00:25:04.800 mean i don't think this is going to happen i think we still have uh enough carrots to offer

00:25:09.540 you know countries like turkey and uh in egypt to avoid anything like that but that also does

00:25:15.520 that doesn't mean that we have enough sticks to threaten them into allowing us to do things that

00:25:21.300 they don't think are in their interest you know well how it's just how long are they going to put

00:25:25.280 up with netanyahu saying yeah we're good we're getting ready to move on you guys i i you know

00:25:31.160 we get we get frustrated with the iranians saying death to america and you know we were looking the

00:25:37.560 other way in the 80s while uh uh while uh our supposed allies uh hussein was you know using

00:25:45.880 chemical weapons on them so i i don't know it's it's all a mess that i wish we would have a much

00:25:52.640 lighter touch with this entire sandbox um i know that's not going to happen i know that's a right

00:26:00.240 wing larp but uh it doesn't keep me from wanting that i mean the thing is ron like that i think

00:26:07.580 from a just a if you're looking at it from a pure political standpoint that's definitely true

00:26:12.080 like from a just pure political standpoint getting people in office who are going to make

00:26:18.280 the right decisions and move in that direction just because they understand it's the right thing

00:26:22.520 that is completely unrealistic but as you guys are talking about i mean what we are learning

00:26:29.020 right now in real time and you wish we would have learned it watching russia and ukraine but we

00:26:33.620 didn't apparently is that warfare has fundamentally transformed and it makes running an empire much

00:26:40.680 much much more difficult because they're you know parity exists um you know not if you just sort of

00:26:48.460 line things up on a balance sheet it you know you don't see parity but in terms of do you does a

00:26:54.400 larger, more powerful country have the ability to go in there and compel action, to coerce action

00:27:00.440 from weaker powers? And the answer is, if they have their own industrial base and a stable

00:27:06.580 government, man, you better be ready to take serious losses. It's World War I. It's the World

00:27:13.900 War I transform all over again. Most of the objectives of the wars that we fought in recent

00:27:19.780 memory are not worth the kind of losses that you're going to have to suffer i mean look at

00:27:25.380 russia i'll bet you i mean you know at the time i'm sure they felt cornered like they had no choice 0.72

00:27:30.200 or like it was just the best course of action to go into ukraine i'll bet they could they wish they

00:27:35.120 could go back and undo that now i mean especially with the bar it's just it's incredibly costly

00:27:43.140 just because you know again like it doesn't matter how much bigger of an economy you have

00:27:48.940 I mean, maybe there is some upper limit where this isn't true. But at the end of the day, shooting down $40,000 drones with $2 million air defense missiles is just not a sustainable strategy. You just can't keep that up forever. And the other sides know that.

00:28:06.040 You know, part of the problem with running a world empire, and this goes to Oren's point about just all these Death Star systems that we that we focus on, which, you know, part of that just has to do with our corrupt procurement process here at home.

00:28:19.240 But another part of it is, you know, the way that the defense companies sell these things is they say, look, we got to be able to show up on the polar ice cap at a moment's notice.

00:28:31.080 We got to be able to go to the South Pacific and do standoff attacks on, you know, just our mission is the entire world.

00:28:39.600 And anything that can possibly emerge as a problem, even conceivably, that's our mission.

00:28:44.880 And so that's what we have to sort of try to prepare for.

00:28:47.500 Well, everybody else in the world doesn't do that. Everybody else in the world says, what does America have and how do we overcome that? That's it. You know, that's all they have to do. And so, you know, the Iranian military just kind of on paper. Yeah, it's weaker than the United States, but ours is a generalist military and theirs is specifically designed to, you know, to overcome the natural advantages we have.

00:29:11.540 yeah you think that a country who really was founded on this idea that you know our troops

00:29:17.820 were so much better during a revolution against a world power empire because we understood the

00:29:23.300 terrain and we understood the land and we had all these tactics adapted for our homeland you think

00:29:27.980 that would maybe transfer somewhere into our into our doctrine but unfortunately as you say this is

00:29:33.120 the nature of you know general empire you don't get to prepare for particular theaters you don't

00:29:37.720 get to have particular tactics, particular strike options. You have to be ready for anything at any

00:29:42.680 moment, which means you're never the best at any given thing. And I think, you know, as you were

00:29:47.640 saying, there was this moment, I thought we'd all learned this lesson. You know, I was an idiot. I 1.00

00:29:52.340 turned around and I thought we had all learned after the GWAT that like, actually, this doesn't

00:29:56.700 work. And we all know that this is bad. And I think a lot of us learned that lesson. I think

00:30:00.100 that's what, you know, Trump wrote in on this lesson. I think the, you know, while I'm very

00:30:04.900 happy that we had a successful mission in venezuela just because of you know protecting

00:30:09.200 the lives of american soldiers i think that victory might turn out you know go down in history

00:30:13.760 as one of the more disastrous victories america's ever secured because for some reason it just lit

00:30:19.500 up in the neocons eyes that actually once again we were back to being able to just win a war

00:30:25.260 through bombing even though that's literally never happened in our entire existence it just has a

00:30:30.540 it's up there with rent control as being like one of the most perfectly uh failed strategies

00:30:37.520 in human history it's a disaster every time you implement it it never works and yet somehow we

00:30:42.540 managed to sell it over and over and over again and the truth is you know this feels like late

00:30:47.940 imperial stuff you know again i don't want americans dying in any of this to be really clear

00:30:52.260 but if you have if you're going to engage in this stuff you got to be willing to say yeah we're just

00:30:56.880 going to put 100,000 guys somewhere and just completely obliterate you and completely control

00:31:01.720 you if you don't listen to us. And without that real backing, you're just not a serious military

00:31:06.860 threat. You're just not a real empire. And it's getting incredibly obvious to people that America

00:31:13.420 simply does not have the will to do that. We're just not going to put 200,000 guys on the ground

00:31:18.540 and completely dominate any given country. Americans do not have the political will.

00:31:22.960 And it doesn't matter how many trillions of dollars you pour into advanced weaponry. 0.51

00:31:27.460 If you just won't put a soldier on the ground, you're just not going to win.

00:31:31.280 And we are not going to do it.

00:31:32.700 So it'd just be better to not engage with it at all.

00:31:34.920 But again, this was not the lesson learned.

00:31:36.700 Instead, the lesson learned was we just had we, you know, we just need to hit them hard and fast enough. 0.66

00:31:41.680 As long as the American people don't see anyone bleed, we're fine.

00:31:44.400 And I think this was going to end up being a really costly realization for most Americans.

00:31:49.840 How many soldiers, how many rifle carriers did we have at the height in Vietnam? Half a million?

00:31:59.360 Close to 600,000, yeah. Yeah, right. Vietnam is what, a tenth the size of Iran? 20% the size of

00:32:10.680 ran uh i and we had the ability to stage b52s much closer i i that just were continually pounding

00:32:24.120 uh especially linebacker two so i this this lesson should have been learned a long time ago

00:32:32.600 um i'm you know i i get what you're saying aren't about the about the venezuelan op

00:32:40.600 But I am for, hey, if we're going to do anything, shoring up the near abroad, because I think that's where this is all going.

00:32:48.160 I think you're going back to a, because of where technology is, I think you're going back to a sphere of influence.

00:32:55.620 There's a system and you better shore up your near abroad because that's all you're going to be able to shore up.

00:33:04.860 The problem is we've always seen the Atlantic and the Pacific as our hegemons, you know, are it that's so I don't know where this ultimately goes.

00:33:17.580 But but the status quo is ended. 0.75

00:33:20.200 To be clear, if if the lesson from Venezuela is let's stick to the Monroe Doctrine, I mean, I would still have some quibbles about foreign intervention, but I would feel much better about that.

00:33:29.580 I would feel like, OK, this is something that's manageable. This is something directly in our interest or at least adjacent to our interest on a regular basis. 0.72

00:33:36.480 You know, these are, you know, theaters that we could prepare for specifically bring things in closer.

00:33:41.940 That would all be great. But what I'm saying, my problem is not the Venezuelan operation itself.

00:33:46.900 You know, it's that that operation very clearly seems to have sold the idea that now, well, we just take that map and we move it to wherever we take it to Iran.

00:33:55.920 we take it to you know cuba we take it to wherever we're going next and that's that's just how it's

00:34:00.900 going to be uh and that that's my problem with it ultimately but before we move on to our next topic

00:34:06.440 um i just want to get you guys general prediction here do we are we in a scenario now where

00:34:12.840 basically we're just going to be exchanging missile fire every week or two for you know an

00:34:21.260 indeterminate number of months is there any significant uh development that you see on the

00:34:25.760 horizon anyone making any real move or are we are we just in a literal forever war that we call

00:34:31.940 not a war because we have like a memorandum of understanding somewhere i mean yeah so i i i don't

00:34:39.940 think i would be surprised if um another high intensity uh series of operations flared up but

00:34:46.460 i don't expect the back and forth tit for tat stop anytime soon you know because it's something that

00:34:53.100 that the u.s side can do at relatively little cost politically and militarily you know one

00:35:00.220 of the things that we would always talk about uh when i was with the department of the navy the um

00:35:06.060 you know the destroyer they're amazing platforms you know two billion dollar ages destroyer they're

00:35:12.060 great platforms but for a long time it's like what is the mission here exactly you know we're

00:35:17.580 not going anywhere where anybody's gonna shoot a volley of cruise missiles at our carrier like

00:35:22.380 that's not the cold war and so we would literally have a two billion dollar ship uh that costs a

00:35:29.580 million dollars a day to keep at sea floating around off the coast of yemen or the cape of

00:35:35.100 the horn of africa you know pulling over like little wooden dows and like searching them for

00:35:41.500 hashish and stuff, right? And so they can, you know, they can stand off, you know, at 800 kilometers

00:35:49.460 around the Arabian Sea and the Gulf of Oman and picket that area and occasionally do standoff

00:35:57.360 strikes and stuff forever, you know, because, you know, again, like they, it's either that or

00:36:05.180 go chase dows around, you know. And so we can do that. And nobody seems particularly bothered by

00:36:10.880 it back home except for you know scott horton i mean like the people who are really like engaged

00:36:15.940 with this stuff care but as long as you know it's uh not driving up gas prices and no americans are

00:36:20.980 dying people don't really care it's just not a hot issue and so i think that and it doesn't have to

00:36:26.360 make sense if afghanistan taught us anything at all it's that it doesn't have to make sense

00:36:30.360 it just has to you know you can be in a situation where um you know you put the president and the

00:36:38.100 people around him in a position where the only course that actually makes sense politically

00:36:43.260 is to kick the can down the road and let the next guy lose the war.

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00:37:20.420 the uh gas prices you know oil prices are are are huge so anything any action that doesn't

00:37:30.420 propel that up. You know, I think if you can get oil down in the low 60s to where gas is

00:37:39.380 back in a quasi-affordable range, I think that's good for the president. And, you know, I think

00:37:51.580 that he's, he's, he's got the, he's got the gas thing on one hand and any type of saving face on

00:38:00.600 the other. And what's the, the real hardcore reality about all of it is, is the Persian Gulf

00:38:07.700 is going to remain Persian, uh, in for the foreseeable, you know, I think for our lifetimes, 0.94

00:38:15.220 They've just, and that reality, all we've done is cement that reality. 1.00

00:38:21.980 I do think the Iranians, as Daryl said, have lost a little bit of leverage. 0.99

00:38:26.400 But all they want, all they want is de facto control so that they can keep irritants out. 0.95

00:38:34.320 And they want to trade the cards they have to get rid of sanctions.

00:38:41.020 Because, and that's it.

00:38:43.800 That's all they want.

00:38:44.760 So there's some game theory stuff. If everybody, if there weren't midterms and, you know, which there are, and there wasn't the MIC with amazing procurement control, but there is, then there's ways to game.

00:39:01.620 and there wasn't the the lobby which is pushing the irrationality button at every opportunity

00:39:09.140 um you know then i think there's ways to game out of this to where everybody kind of

00:39:14.980 wins a little bit at least or at least or loses the least yeah i mean and so but you're not going

00:39:24.540 to change the reality that the Persian, that Iran just has that armored coastline all up and down

00:39:32.780 the Persian Gulf, and that the strait has one tiny little channel that you can navigate that

00:39:38.960 they control. You're just not going to change that. So how can, you know, cooler heads would

00:39:45.340 be saying, so how can we leverage a way that makes it better for everyone? Well, the problem is

00:39:49.860 our, we've got a so-called ally that wants none of that. And so, uh, you know, in, in the old days,

00:39:58.820 in, in the Nixon era, we had a guy who was kind of a bad guy. Um, but he was, but, but he provided

00:40:06.320 a great balance to, uh, Israel, uh, Turkey and Egypt. And we just don't have that now. And,

00:40:14.980 And and that's the that's what makes this the, you know, kind of unsolvable if you want to win at every point.

00:40:24.320 Yeah. And unfortunately, the Iranians and I can understand why, but unfortunately, they don't seem to be in any mood to give Trump a dignified off ramp, which I wish they would do. 0.97

00:40:36.380 I understand, you know, well, assassinating leadership in the middle of negotiations. 0.66

00:40:42.200 Yeah. Imagine, you know, if during the Pearl Harbor attack, which Trump on camera, you know, compared our initial attack on Iran to imagine if they had also blown up a school full of little girls and killed the president in the most popular preacher in the country.

00:41:01.660 I mean, we would be in no mood. I mean, even all they did was attack military targets and we were in no mood for forgiveness, burn down their capital city over that. 0.59

00:41:10.920 So, I mean, I understand why the Iranians are feeling this way, especially since they're kind of feeling their oats and probably feel pretty confident in their position and their ability to withstand whatever we can throw at them. 0.94

00:41:23.500 But, yeah, I wish they would, you know, I wish they would give us an out.

00:41:27.700 A lot of people have suggested that one of the goals for Israel here is not just to degrade Iran, but is also to degrade at some level the American presence in the Middle East, that they see America as a ally in flux, one that they've leaned on very heavily to maintain their current geopolitical status, 0.62

00:41:51.600 but ultimately recognize either America may wane in power or others may rise or it may just be that the unpopularity of Israel in America is going to grow as the generational turnover occurs. 0.87

00:42:04.320 And so it would be best if America expended all of its blood and treasure, kind of burning Iran as hard as possible, but also kind of putting it in a place to where it has to flee the region and allow Israel and perhaps other allies to kind of reconfigure their defense strategy there. 0.82

00:42:24.740 Do you think there's any truth to that? Or is that just kind of adding sinister motive to Israel? Do they ultimately are just too reliant on America to believe that they could somehow switch over to another ally or go it on their own? What do you guys think about that theory? 0.92

00:42:37.800 i mean if they if they do believe that and if that is something that it's on their list of

00:42:46.120 uh you know of positive outcomes then that is hubris in the extreme i mean look if you go back 0.85

00:42:53.860 to the days of the british mandate there was a period where the zionists were building up their 0.97

00:42:58.320 forces training their people taking you know strategic territory and then once they felt 0.96

00:43:04.200 like they were strong enough they started attacking the british right alongside the 0.98

00:43:07.540 palestinians because they wanted the british out because the british were going to stop them from 0.99

00:43:10.940 going full hog the whole hog against the palestinians and so they were successful there

00:43:16.680 this said this is a totally i mean again like there's there's no way short of nuclear weapons 0.56

00:43:25.360 that israel could win a one-on-one fight with iran if anything's become clear from this conflict

00:43:31.120 it's that you know they're taking they're taking damage with jordan the united states uh you know

00:43:38.240 missile defense batteries in turkey the whole region is defending israel and they're still

00:43:43.680 you know they're still taking damage and um if they really believe that i mean i don't

00:43:50.000 you know you know common friends of ours do do think that's what's going on but um

00:43:56.000 i just have to imagine that you know there's some rational people in israel who understand that

00:44:01.120 that that is an absolute pipe dream, especially after this conflict. I don't know what you think,

00:44:05.420 Ron. Yeah, I mean, I think their ability to project power has to have that full force

00:44:16.420 multiplication of the U.S., mainly U.S. cooperation, I don't see how, you know, Iran is far. 0.63

00:44:31.140 They don't have a real, you know, independent refueling capability.

00:44:40.780 You know, they don't have a huge ground force.

00:44:43.440 um yeah i i don't think that i mean i i was skeptical of this idea in general of this

00:44:50.460 this kind of line of reasoning but i think to do it justice i don't think the idea is that it would

00:44:56.200 just be israel one-on-one with iran i think the the the just the thrust of this kind of line of

00:45:02.400 reasoning is you get kind of u.s and iran to degrade themselves as much as possible you know

00:45:08.320 at the cost of kind of the US military, Iran becomes less and less of a threat. The US realizes 0.80

00:45:14.660 that it can't continue to kind of impose its will, but also can't prove some level of hindrance

00:45:19.900 to Israeli ambition. And then you bring in some other, you pair with some other, you know, India

00:45:25.120 or China, I don't know, someone else, some other geopolitical giant to kind of take over the role

00:45:30.560 of America for Israel. Yeah, I think the more interesting question, which is maybe this is

00:45:35.760 kind of a, a corollary to is, is without the United States, is there a steady state, uh, in the,

00:45:46.100 in the, in the region, in the entire region that is self-balancing? Um, that's a more interesting

00:45:54.340 question. And I, I don't really know the answer to that. I, I know that the Turks, uh, have been

00:46:03.740 and well and shoot and the you know uh have have have tried to increase their their presence in 1.00

00:46:11.680 their middle abroad you know around the horn uh and um you know i don't i i really don't know what

00:46:19.620 the saudis really want to be up to as far as being able to project force so but um it's it's a real

00:46:27.820 theoretical question, but that's interesting to me. If you could game out the U.S., let's say we

00:46:34.000 completely left the region and just shook the dust off our hands, so to speak, is there a steady

00:46:42.720 state that is achievable over there? I'm skeptical, and I don't think there's any scenario where

00:46:53.020 uh israel becomes the the the middle power regional hegemon over that area i don't know

00:47:00.720 daryl what do you think no absolutely not i mean not without us there i mean right i don't i don't

00:47:06.960 think i don't think even egypt could sustain their relationship with israel if we weren't there

00:47:13.380 putting our thumb on the scale and this is the problem we run into when you have an external force 0.52

00:47:18.240 sort of putting their thumb on a scale of a given region, you create a whole set of

00:47:24.360 possibilities and incentives that wouldn't exist absent that outside force. And you build up over

00:47:31.080 time just more and more and more in a given direction that is completely unnatural. And so

00:47:36.460 there are people who are very serious people who look at it and say, yeah, it'd be great to get 0.99

00:47:42.940 out of the Middle East. And maybe there is a stable order that is possible. But there's a 1.00

00:47:48.040 couple million corpses uh between here and there yeah and if we leave at this point it's like

00:47:54.080 pulling the last thing out of the jenga tower because this thing is just an unnatural construction

00:47:57.960 to begin with yeah that's all right guys that's really good well i want to move on to our next

00:48:04.920 topic here which is of course very much related um ron you just wrote a piece about uh this

00:48:11.040 very interesting uh kind of clause being inserted into a bill that's working its way through the

00:48:17.420 Congress. There's a lot of overstatement and hyperbole on this. And I think it's important

00:48:22.320 that we get the actual scope of what this agreement would look like down because I think it is itself

00:48:29.820 very bad. I think that inserting something like this into the American kind of intelligence and

00:48:37.280 military system is very bad. However, when people completely say things like, well, this just hands

00:48:42.900 over control of the american military to bb netanyahu uh when you when you say things like

00:48:47.220 that it uh you know it makes it hard for people to then take the the actual problem seriously uh

00:48:54.280 you don't want to blow it out of proportion because it's really important the details matter

00:48:59.020 on this one so can you lay out what's going on where did the suggestion come from it sounds

00:49:03.960 insane even when you give the realistic explanation of what it is so can you tell us what it is and

00:49:09.700 how it emerged? Sure. Well, there's, um, let's leave how it emerged to somebody who's willing

00:49:18.080 to be a lot more spicy than me. I write for the Claremont Institute and I don't want to, uh,

00:49:25.820 no. Um, well, you've got two, you've got two separate sections. There's section 219 and

00:49:30.520 section 622, and they do two different things, but towards the same goal. But let's back up

00:49:36.620 authorization act defense reauthorization bill remember uh we we it's uh we we do this kind of

00:49:46.280 legal uh not a fiction but kind of a legal miracle every year in order to get around some of the

00:49:52.880 constitutional provisions of a standing army and so we kind of recreate our defensive structure

00:50:00.300 every year. Um, that's, uh, I mean, that's settled law and all, but it's, it is kind of funny when

00:50:07.600 you think about it. Uh, let's step, take a step back and realize what it, cause this all goes to

00:50:13.620 the, the theoretical idea of what an alliance is now in, in, we have, we have cooperation with

00:50:22.340 other countries at a pretty deep level through NATO. Um, the, I mean, shoot, Daryl can speak

00:50:29.200 really well. He, he, he worked for, you know, uh, uh, for, uh, the defense department and all that

00:50:37.140 for, for a long time doing this very thing, this integration with other countries. So that in and

00:50:42.440 of itself is not new or weird. Um, it, we, I think it's due for a rethink. And I think a lot of

00:50:50.920 people on the intellectual right are calling for a rethink. That's why there's kind of a pushback

00:51:00.060 against the whole purposes of what are we doing with NATO and so on and so forth. The specifics

00:51:06.460 with Israel are Israel is not an official, there's not an official alliance structure that's there. 0.59

00:51:14.640 It's kind of this weird netherworld that we deal with. And so there's these two provisions

00:51:19.720 and the defense reauthorization.

00:51:22.000 First of all, let's deal with Section 219.

00:51:25.280 And that's defense and industrial integration.

00:51:28.280 And so what it would do is,

00:51:30.380 and I'm just reading from my notes here

00:51:32.120 because I want to be very specific.

00:51:34.020 It would deepen the U.S.-Israel cooperation

00:51:36.680 in research, development, systems integration,

00:51:39.360 procurement, programs of record, co-production,

00:51:42.740 training, and information sharing, okay?

00:51:45.860 And so that goes into mental defense, drones,

00:51:48.960 artificial intelligence cyber warfare and these are things that are pretty hard to you start

00:51:54.700 mixing uh ones and zeros it's pretty hard to do any kind of extraction once it gets started it

00:52:02.500 does not formally merge the militaries or create an automatic mutual self-defense guarantee but it

00:52:08.720 is institutional lock-in and so um you got training that adapts to it contractors invest in it

00:52:16.280 supply chains get built around it, and then you get congressional districts acquiring the

00:52:22.660 economic interest and the whole MIC thing, okay? So what you're creating is a quasi-mini-NATO

00:52:34.160 buildup between the two countries. And now 622, so that's an issue, but that's an issue with NATO

00:52:42.040 as well. So we just, I think there's a realistic rethink that needs, that is going on, that this

00:52:49.740 is trying to forestall and by putting another, what did Daryl say a minute ago, a Jenga piece

00:52:57.320 in, you're inserting a Jenga piece rather than pulling one out to make the whole structure

00:53:02.740 more comprehensive. Section 622 is intelligence integration. And this scares me. I'll just

00:53:12.020 be honest, because on the ground, I know Daryl's heard stories about this. I know on the ground,

00:53:18.240 Mossad and, um, you know, are not guys are, are no official cover guys and are, and are, uh, you

00:53:26.240 know, are, are guys who have official cover, who go and do the official things when they visit

00:53:31.660 israel that that that's not a fun integration there um but so six section swish 622 basically

00:53:41.180 mandates rather than rather than keeping it a uh a discretionary uh uh uh eventuality where it

00:53:53.660 mandates integration between our and their uh intelligence apparatus and that's

00:54:01.420 that's weird and problematic to me so what it does is it uh it it it directs the executive branch so

00:54:10.060 it's anti-article two to expand intelligence sharing with israel across uh uh terrorism

00:54:19.100 sanctions evasion cyber threats missiles drones air and space warning so all the palantir stuff too

00:54:24.860 uh technology proliferation and it basically says you can't uh you can't end this without specific

00:54:33.020 cause and congressional approval so it basically so that's an issue to me so those are two separate

00:54:42.300 provisions uh one is uh towards kind of making israel and the u.s into the kind of this mini

00:54:49.900 nato kind of sharing deal and the other is saying our intelligence apparatus has to

00:54:55.980 really integrate uh in a mandatory rather than a discretionary way so so this is just insane on

00:55:03.420 several levels like first uh the the fact that uh you're you're talking about the need to end nato

00:55:09.820 how terrible it is to be just completely intertwined with these fossil like, you know, national or international organizations that no longer benefit you.

00:55:21.060 You have all these free riders on the system. You know, it doesn't make sense. It impinges on your sovereignty.

00:55:27.320 This is something every American on the right pretty much agreed with, you know, again, after GWAT and everything else. 0.78

00:55:33.740 uh and now it's like no we're gonna build a tiny smaller nato with israel uh is itself uh pretty 0.82

00:55:40.840 nuts but the second one the latter one is is the truly insulting one where you have to integrate

00:55:46.440 you have to give things to israel by statute and if you don't the executive who should be you know

00:55:52.540 commander-in-chief has to go justify to congress why we're not giving something to an ally i mean

00:56:00.900 this there is no sovereignty here this is just putting israel in charge of our intelligence

00:56:06.140 right like am i crazy here daryl this seems no it's giving them the key to the city and

00:56:11.080 you know that last part really gives away the game of what's going on here right which is

00:56:16.600 they see the polling they see the direction things are going uh in the united states and this is an

00:56:22.860 attempt to take our military and intelligence support for israel uh out of the democratic 0.74

00:56:30.140 process before it turns on them because it's going to very soon. That's all this is. And 1.00

00:56:35.900 like, you know, you've even, you've seen recently, for example, like people love to talk about the

00:56:40.360 $3 billion in aid we give them every year. I wish people wouldn't focus on that so much because

00:56:44.120 they're going to get rid of that. And guess what? They're going to get their money one way or

00:56:48.260 another. They'll figure it out, how to get it, you know, how to get it over there. And, but

00:56:53.500 they'll be able to say, Hey, you know, we're not having aid anymore. So I thought that's what you

00:56:57.180 wanted you know and so we only spent 50 billion dollars on israel this year so it's fine i think

00:57:02.580 the key question here because there's probably a lot of people who are hearing this who are like

00:57:06.260 oh so what we're like um elevating them to the level uh you know giving them the privileges

00:57:11.900 that we give like our like like england right austria oh no this is unprecedented no we don't

00:57:18.260 have anything like this with our oldest closest allies and um it's beyond five eyes right wouldn't

00:57:25.400 you say oh yeah yeah because it gives them statutory rights i mean you know right now we

00:57:30.380 have uh integration but you know with five eyes but everything literally everything is discretionary

00:57:36.920 you know and to take to remove that i mean it's it's a okay so so the first thing that you have

00:57:44.800 to like really think about when you consider something like this is want to see your rewards

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00:58:24.360 doing this with, have they proven themselves over years to be trustworthy partners? 0.73

00:58:28.860 And of all of our quote unquote close allies, by far in a way, the biggest answer no is Israel.

00:58:37.160 They have spied on us. They have stolen technological secrets. Back in the 1980s, 0.86

00:58:41.780 They had a sub agency in their military intelligence directorate that was basically entirely tasked with with stealing technology from the United States.

00:58:52.500 You know, Jonathan Pollard was being run by Rafi Aitan when he ran that sub agency.

00:58:57.460 And, you know, the who is the movie producer Arnon Milchan helped, you know, he he got with a nuclear engineer here and got him to send a bunch of nuclear components over to Israel, you know. 0.88

00:59:09.300 and this was something that was like a real operation this law is you guys can get rid of

00:59:16.100 that sub agency like you don't have to have that anymore you know you're just gonna have access to

00:59:21.420 all of these things no matter what and it also gives them the uh you know because just like with

00:59:27.860 our procurement process in general now you know the way that they always very smartly i guess uh

00:59:34.260 The defense companies make sure that the nuts and bolts are made in this district and, you know, the the steel is milled in this district and whatever else so that everybody has a stake in making sure, you know, this program continues and they can go and say, hey, you're not trying to cut a military program.

00:59:52.900 You're trying to cut jobs in this vital district.

00:59:55.820 You know, how dare you? And they want our support to Israel to be able to be made and argued in those terms.

01:00:01.560 and finally i mean you guys both mentioned like a sort of mini nato situation it's way worse than

01:00:07.760 that because this is this is elevating israel to uh the status of like a super nato member really

01:00:15.140 with privileges our nato members don't have but without any of the obligations you know that's

01:00:20.460 they don't they don't have any obligation under a treaty law to uh to support us to say yeah i mean

01:00:27.040 and the thing is say well we can always you know just continue to do what we want to but obviously

01:00:32.400 like as we've shown the fact that this law exists at all that is extremely difficult to do here in

01:00:37.000 the united states and it's not for them and you know they can still make conscious decisions

01:00:41.640 whereas over here you know they just have uh they have their hand deep up the backside of

01:00:47.060 you know the the american government so again the the key thing to know about this really is

01:00:54.460 all this is like at its base at its base level is an attempt to get ahead of shifting American

01:01:00.380 opinion and take our relationship with Israel, support with Israel out of the democratic process

01:01:04.700 before that ship sails. Daryl, was there a, is there truth to the, uh, uh, to the story of

01:01:13.500 Netanyahu being involved in the timers being stolen, uh, the timers that were, you know,

01:01:19.340 So in an implosion device, you have to have a very specific timing sequence in order to collapse the plutonium pit into super criticality.

01:01:31.720 I've had people tell me that Netanyahu, when he was much younger, was part of a program that a bunch of American-made timing mechanisms disappeared, and that was critical to their movement.

01:01:48.300 have you heard about anything of this no not that specifically but you know if that uh would

01:01:54.140 if that would surprise anybody at this point i think you probably haven't been paying enough

01:01:58.260 attention you know uh i i of course yeah i think everybody uh you know are currently on this uh

01:02:06.580 stream understands uh the difficulties of speaking about israel it goes into all kinds of strange

01:02:12.860 uh welcome to the rn mcintyre show

01:02:18.660 yeah so i looked up real quick yeah if he uh while while we're uh i don't know how this is

01:02:28.520 working if this is going out or not i think we're the show right now so keep okay so so uh in the

01:02:34.300 1980s uh there was and this was reported by time magazine uh there was a major controversy that

01:02:41.640 erupted between israel and the usa concerning krytons yeah the high speed gas building yeah

01:02:48.240 exactly and so that was uh that's what i was referring to yeah um and it was richard kelly

01:02:56.020 smith who uh who smuggled 810 of these timing devices out of the united states you know the uh

01:03:04.820 This whole thing is really like it's just the platonic example of what Washington was warning us about in his farewell address when he talked about entangling alliances.

01:03:15.640 Like the whole point of it was if we do that, then we're going to make their problems our problems.

01:03:23.440 And now it's one thing if you're really good friends with a country and you say, look, if you get attacked ever or anything like that, then we've got your back.

01:03:30.920 You can count on us.

01:03:32.200 It's a totally different thing.

01:03:33.440 It's like if if you have a friend who every weekend he goes out and he gets in a bar fight every single weekend and he says, hey, I need you to come out with me this weekend.

01:03:43.180 I might get in a fight. You have to tell that person, no, even if they're your friend and like he calls you and says, hey, I'm surrounded by 10 guys.

01:03:50.580 I really need backup. Maybe you go. But every time you just decide to go out with him on a Saturday night, you're making his problems, your problems.

01:03:58.060 And Israel is that guy. You know, you're making an alliance with somebody who's already in a hot war with like most of its own region. And it's just a crazy thing to do. And, you know, again, like there was a part of me when they first said this that thought, you know, maybe this will actually in a weird way be a good thing because it'll make this so upfront and blatant that nobody can kind of deny what's going on. 0.62

01:04:24.880 but I think the opposite is what would happen is it would disappear into the

01:04:28.520 halls of the bureaucracy and it wouldn't even come up as a political issue.

01:04:32.600 And you know, we, cause once that happens, you know, look at the,

01:04:37.240 whatever the Snowden revelations or anything like that,

01:04:40.460 all that stuff's still going on. Nobody cares.

01:04:42.220 It just sort of disappeared into the bureaucracy and we got over it.

01:04:45.140 And that's what would happen here. And so hopefully we're able to defeat this.

01:04:49.700 Hopefully there's enough Democrats that just wreck it because the Republicans

01:04:52.500 aren't going to stop it but um hopefully there's enough democrats who realize their careers are on

01:04:56.900 the line maybe that'll help but i don't know it's a bad idea for sure well i managed to survive the

01:05:03.840 direct strike on my uh power by florida thunderstorms uh so we have returned uh we had

01:05:10.800 the show going it was great i i appreciate it yeah i knew i knew i was in good hands uh while

01:05:16.220 i attempted desperately to get things back and running uh but yeah it sounds sounds like you

01:05:21.320 continued the conversation that we were on there, but I just wanted to finish my thought in saying

01:05:25.820 that we all know the difficulty of discussing this issue. We all know that it's a hot button.

01:05:30.340 We all know that, unfortunately, people get crazy on both ends of this, and it makes it very

01:05:35.260 difficult to have just a rational conversation. And I never really wanted to be focused on the

01:05:39.980 subject in the slightest, but I keep running into the problem that when I'm discussing American

01:05:43.800 sovereignty, when I'm trying to do things like get illegals deported out of my country, I can't do it. 0.99

01:05:49.260 And the reason I can't do it is in no small part because so much of the political energy in my country is directed towards some stupid country in the Middle East. 0.96

01:05:58.580 And, you know, I wish them well and hope they do fine. 0.81

01:06:00.860 But the idea that I cannot, you know, do basic things in my country because actually the real focus of my government is everywhere and always, you know, being vigilant for the borders of some foreign country while I'm watching my country be invaded.

01:06:15.480 It's too much, man.

01:06:16.400 It's too much.

01:06:16.980 as much as I don't want to talk about it, as difficult as it is, and as ugly as it gets for

01:06:21.260 some people taking it too far, I just don't know what else to do about this. We can't let things

01:06:26.220 like this happen. We can't let our country get entirely hijacked. I've done nothing if not talk

01:06:31.000 endlessly about the importance of not letting things get disappeared into this managerial

01:06:36.420 bureaucracy, not let them get cordoned off into the space where they are never once again touched

01:06:41.960 by any kind of actual movement of representation, as much as I'm skeptical of democracy, if we're

01:06:47.940 going to pretend that we're doing this, at the very least, let our votes actually be able to

01:06:52.620 touch things like foreign alliances, don't just entirely enshrine them into law to ensure that

01:06:57.860 even the president himself does not get to make decisions about these things. Again, try not to

01:07:03.860 engage in hyperbole, but what is conquest, if not the complete control of another country over

01:07:10.880 certain aspects of your the operation of your military i mean it is truly insane that we are

01:07:16.420 having any kind of discussion about this or even worse that there seems to be almost no discussion

01:07:21.420 about this uh while you know we're obviously in a war that is not helping our country out at all

01:07:26.820 and it was obviously sparked by the very country that is now seeming to be put at least at some

01:07:31.060 level in charge of critical parts of our intelligence well why can't i see uh it seems

01:07:38.540 to me that a that a skilled political actor here could at least get uh co-opt the lobby in order

01:07:46.600 to get some of your things that look if we're going to do all these if we're going to trade

01:07:51.900 right we're getting nothing back you know oh okay so you want to you want to have this

01:07:58.200 ultra-nationalist state where you are and we're going to get drug around okay well can you help

01:08:03.840 us with, uh, uh, can you help get some of our, uh, political goals met over here? If you carry all

01:08:10.860 this massively big stick politically, um, can we, can we, can we put our heads together? You know,

01:08:19.080 I wish, look, I'm saying that kind of in jest because a, a, you know, and I got no, I say all

01:08:27.340 this and i know you know it it feels almost untoward because uh why are we talking about 1.00

01:08:36.080 a two and a half percent minority like this it ends up sounding kind of gross you know i mean 0.87

01:08:43.200 i got no problem with i i don't know i uh the uh italian americans or whatever you know what

01:08:51.920 italians are probably more than two and a half percent i don't know what if russian americans

01:08:56.660 were like significantly leveraging their influence to ensure that we spent the most of our time

01:09:01.720 sharing intelligence with and protecting russia's geopolitical ambitions you would have a problem

01:09:06.340 with that too right like it's not the country itself it's no behavior that would be bad across

01:09:11.900 any diaspora right right and it's it's just the whole thing is i think part of the problem is

01:09:20.440 the whole thing is so again kind of untoward that no that that you can't deal with it head on 0.51

01:09:27.400 for instance i've told and i got you know i got a lot of uh jewish friends who i you know write with

01:09:33.980 and talk to and everything but we're very open uh about hey look you've got a certain set of

01:09:41.320 presuppositions that are different from mine because i'm a christian who's got very specific

01:09:48.100 way, I think, that the U.S., the whole United States project was and what it was for. And that's

01:09:55.520 great that you can live here freely and everything, but there's a certain set, we have a certain set

01:09:59.460 of presuppositional disagreements. Those are magnified in this foreign policy situation,

01:10:05.080 but we can't speak openly about it because it turns into this, the other side ends up

01:10:14.380 leveraging the fact that there's this this ugliness about it that just normal folks don't

01:10:21.580 want to deal with and and that's but at some point it's going to get dealt with well yeah

01:10:26.620 and i think that that's kind of the the job that people like us have is um you know we is offering

01:10:34.780 people uh ways of talking about these issues that uh that doesn't that don't doesn't trip off those

01:10:43.740 uh, you know, um, those emotional switches in their brain that got implanted when their sixth

01:10:49.060 grade teacher made him watch Schindler's List in class, you know, like is, is, you know, they're,

01:10:53.800 they're good impulses. People like have a fear of like, am I being unjust? Am I, you know,

01:10:57.900 nobody wants to do that. Good impulse. And, um, but those good impulses very often are manipulated,

01:11:03.960 you know, by bad people. And so it's, you know, it can be tough to talk about at a certain point

01:11:10.020 though, like if you know you're operating in good faith and you're coming at the issue, you know,

01:11:15.920 in terms of the interests of your own country and not your animosity towards some other group of

01:11:20.100 people, then you just got to let people say what they're going to say. You know, I feel like we've

01:11:25.620 outlasted the worst of it. And, you know, we, as Oren said, if there were Russian-Americans, I mean, 1.00

01:11:32.660 just imagine when, you know, if you were, um, watching Fox news panel and there's six people

01:11:40.300 up there, uh, including the host and of the six people that are up there, um, they're all discussing

01:11:46.660 whether our, what our relationship with Taiwan should be. And five out of those six people are

01:11:52.500 Han Chinese Americans for sure. If you were to be like, is there an issue here? Nobody would be

01:11:57.620 like how dare you how could you possibly say that it would be obvious right and if they were arabs 0.85

01:12:03.820 or persians then the neocons themselves would be the ones going crazy over it right and so we have

01:12:10.400 to be able like we have to have the moral courage to be able to talk about this stuff openly when

01:12:14.680 we know our intentions are good um but from you know the standpoint of like the job we do it's

01:12:20.240 figuring out how to formulate these things in a way that an ordinary person with you know maybe

01:12:25.320 lot to lose or just uh friends that they don't want to lose even um can can actually discuss

01:12:31.640 these things well i love that and real quick or it's why i've spent so much time in the past year

01:12:39.960 really focusing on like the classical political philosophy that that says ultimately we're

01:12:46.600 pursuing what is good and right, what is just. And if you do that, then it does keep you above

01:12:55.660 the, it's just me against them, man. And them, I just hate them because it's them, right? And

01:13:05.720 I want to recover that. I want to recover that classical, you know, maybe it's corny,

01:13:13.040 But I want to recover that classical ideal of there is justice and it's an objective reality.

01:13:26.440 And part of what is just isn't tooling another country's foreign policy around.

01:13:43.040 Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit wayfair.ca.

01:13:47.740 Wayfair, every style, every home. 1.00

01:13:50.280 You know, when I talk about the need to ban Chinese immigration, especially from American universities because of the spying problem that is obviously present in that population here, for the most part, nobody bats an eye. 0.99

01:14:05.220 Conservatives are like, yeah, at some level that makes sense. That's perfectly reasonable, right? 1.00

01:14:09.280 And all I'm asking is that we apply that logic equally across all groups, you know, not that we need to isolate one group, not that we need to see one group as somehow more subversive or, you know, that we can interact with.

01:14:20.580 but that the same logic that applies to China or Russia, you know, if we had, you know, a large

01:14:25.940 amount of people, you know, coming in and influencing our politics in either of those

01:14:30.220 directions in the interest of those countries, we would immediately recognize. And we do recognize

01:14:34.480 the need to stop that. Many people agree with me, even if I talk about care and how I really don't

01:14:38.880 want to see that in the United States either. Again, heads nodding all across the Republican

01:14:42.920 side of the aisle. But then, you know, you get to, you know, the Israel question, all of a sudden

01:14:47.940 that becomes a much much larger issue even though nothing has changed none of the logic has changed

01:14:52.900 none of the justification has changed at the end of the day like you say ron we're looking towards

01:14:56.820 what is just what is good for america across the board you don't need to you don't need to randomly

01:15:02.380 create this special exception for one country you can just apply those principles be reasonable and

01:15:07.900 if if someone has a problem with that if they want to call you a name when you're applying the

01:15:11.600 same standard to china as you did israel that's their problem like that that's very clearly an

01:15:15.980 issue for them, not something that you've done wrong. But that said, guys, I probably should

01:15:19.580 not tempt my power any longer, having already withstood one salvo. We do have a number of

01:15:25.740 super chats. So if we can get to those real quick, that'd be great. But before we do, Ron,

01:15:30.200 is there anywhere that you want people to look for your stuff? I write, you know, I write my

01:15:35.400 sub stack, the eyes of pillies. I write for the American mind and for American reformer and for

01:15:43.820 responsible statecraft and daryl um i've got the martyrmaid podcast and i do a weekly podcast with

01:15:52.140 scott horton called provoked uh if you really really really like those you can pay me five

01:15:57.580 bucks a month to subscribe to my sub stack which is subscribe.martmaid.com yeah just do it if you

01:16:03.420 don't it's the best content it really is other than the orrin mcintyre show that's right yeah

01:16:10.060 But neck and neck, we're fighting there.

01:16:11.920 It's very difficult.

01:16:13.020 I will once again compliment your episode on Nietzsche and Dostoevsky.

01:16:17.220 I'm going back and reading some Nietzsche here,

01:16:19.500 and that episode is just always kind of echoing in the back of my head.

01:16:22.820 Man, the Nietzsche stans hate me for that episode.

01:16:26.680 They should. 0.81

01:16:27.920 They should because you're right.

01:16:30.540 It's so good.

01:16:32.320 That's the most important thing.

01:16:33.360 Oh, my gosh, it's so good.

01:16:35.120 All right.

01:16:35.780 So Adam Keeney says,

01:16:37.760 Trump was right.

01:16:38.580 we're getting tired of winning yeah uh you know many victories of the trump administration but

01:16:44.500 it would like to would have liked to continue to see far more domestic victories and not so much

01:16:49.200 of this uh base tillbilly says the decapitation strikes didn't work even if they uh well didn't

01:16:55.560 work but even if they would have we wouldn't have uh uh wrapped russia first now russia makes more

01:17:02.100 money and europe is screwed i mean it is so strange the continued the so in addition to uh

01:17:10.200 everything going on with israel and iran and all that stuff trump also recently announced that

01:17:14.420 we're just going to start selling licenses to ukraine to like make patriot missiles so we

01:17:20.400 promised campaigned entirely you know with there's sorry there's no equivocation on this one you can't

01:17:25.020 tell me oh he always wanted to go to war with iran okay garbage but you can find a clip somewhere

01:17:30.000 there's no way we can justify the fact that we're still funding Ukraine right I think we just wrote

01:17:35.140 a nine billion dollar check to them again at this point so I don't know if you guys have any thoughts

01:17:39.960 on the continuation of that conflict but that that one also seems absolutely ridiculous and

01:17:44.700 the fact that no one talks about it is utterly bizarre yeah you know we took uh the the lesson

01:17:51.180 that we should have learned for ourselves and the rest of the world uh by watching how uh the the

01:17:57.300 early part of the russia-ukraine war went you know um we instead the lesson we took from that 0.97

01:18:03.780 is wow russia man they really suck they can't even beat little old ukraine instead of realizing that 0.71

01:18:09.140 no warfare has changed and this is really really hard now and um we you know so we took that idea 0.97

01:18:14.420 and you know when this whole thing started to kick off you know you had people saying almost

01:18:19.860 as a you know it was like a it was like a quip that europe and the united states are prepared

01:18:24.980 to fight to the last Ukrainian. And that just seems to be the case. I mean, it really does

01:18:28.900 seem to be the case at this point. Postmo says, I knew it was BS when a day or two after the MOU

01:18:37.140 it was was signed. Ben Shapiro and Marco Levin were saying, I trust the president. Yeah, that's

01:18:41.620 that's not a good sign. We really should have a Shapiro Levin monitor, you know, right up there

01:18:47.220 with Calci for prediction markets on kind of how any given thing is going to go for the United

01:18:51.940 states uh based hillbilly says israel versus turkey is the ultimate let them fight yeah i

01:18:57.020 don't think that one's going to happen i don't think uh i don't think israel is ultimately

01:19:00.600 crazy enough to go after turkey without america's backing but uh you know who knows uh you know

01:19:05.940 we've seen insane things from them before uh baloo says not the first time the persian

01:19:12.020 purposely built a military specific military specifically to counter the west just ask

01:19:18.520 crassus yep uh conquering conquering persia always a dangerous uh dangerous game for any western

01:19:24.760 power yeah and it's kind of funny too because crassus was the wealthiest man in rome and he

01:19:29.560 made his money as a real estate speculator but is the fire department story uh apocryphal is that

01:19:36.460 not as far as i know i've read it in real sources um i don't know what the original

01:19:40.540 source for it is but i've read it in uh like reputable books so

01:19:44.660 uh author uh arthur in california says iran gives uh flashbacks to covid two weeks to flatten the

01:19:52.980 curve talk it's all done in sideline u.s domestic issues we have long iran uh syndrome now yeah i

01:19:59.800 mean this is exactly what i worried about this is what i warned everybody in the world about

01:20:03.140 you know i there is now this contingent of uh dissident right uh neocon cutouts uh who are

01:20:09.780 like constantly pushing like oh it'll be fine it'll be okay don't worry about it with neocons

01:20:14.640 you're going to win they'll give us whatever we need and then as as Ron pointed out we got nothing

01:20:18.500 in the deal uh and of course the war went much longer than you know anyone uh on that side would

01:20:24.360 admit they're still you know even when we got the MOU they're like oh look guys it was only three

01:20:28.800 months it's fine and of course now it's collapsed and so uh I mean they're never going to eat crow

01:20:33.500 on this obviously but at some point uh you wonder how many times Charlie Brown can you know run at

01:20:38.720 that football and then end up on his backside uh before you know he either has just shattered his

01:20:43.400 tailbone or he figures it out but it seems like we're going to learn that lesson it seems like

01:20:47.120 we're going to put that theory to the test yeah and you really like whenever you read uh you know

01:20:51.860 tweets or see articles or or listen to podcasts from people like ben shapiro or will chamberlain

01:20:57.360 any of these people you have to understand they're not trying to convince you of their point of view

01:21:02.560 what they're trying to do is get through the news cycle and next week if what they said last week is

01:21:07.700 obviously wrong whatever who cares they don't care at all that it's totally wrong they've moved

01:21:13.140 on to the next thing they've gotten the war one more week ahead got us enmeshed a little bit more

01:21:18.340 until they get us to the point that it's really hard to extract from and that's the goal that's

01:21:23.140 the goal this is it's they're trying to move things along they're not trying to convince you

01:21:26.420 of anything the churn is real and you can always just post through it you know uh people will

01:21:31.960 forget they'll move on and you're absolutely right the goal is to sit there long enough 0.59

01:21:35.780 for iran to like really kill some american troops like really land that one missile you know

01:21:41.180 actually cause like a you know 50 casualties somewhere and then we're in it and that's that's

01:21:46.380 what they want that's the entire that's the entire game here if you can't see that if you think that

01:21:50.740 that's crazy if you think that's conspiratorial buddy you have just not paid attention to history

01:21:54.760 man i don't know what else to tell you okay it's it's it's the guy with a loaded rifle in front of

01:21:59.500 a bunch of protesters throwing rocks okay it's the beginning of every revolution of history that's

01:22:04.160 just how it is um florida henry says uh mongols conquered iran i've been there those mountains

01:22:11.000 are no joke exhausting for infantry fighting yeah well maybe we can get our guys with a you know

01:22:16.840 bows and uh you know uh forces and uh a good set of stirrups and we can we can also take over 0.74

01:22:23.500 i ran there uh spartan says uh you may not hate israel but israel hates you again i would avoid

01:22:30.980 using those terms i understand uh but you're not helping yourself out in that framing um there are

01:22:36.680 real significant issues of sovereignty at play here. As good American nationalists, as America

01:22:41.960 firsters, as people who really do believe we're making America great again, we should stand in

01:22:46.340 that frame. We should own that frame in that position. America is sovereign and Israel is

01:22:51.660 impeding on that sovereignty. And that's the issue. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, I would say that 0.98

01:22:56.180 that if that what we're supporting ultimately is best long term for Israel. I mean, I think

01:23:03.840 Israel's really backing itself in a corner that it doesn't want to be in. And that's due to some

01:23:13.400 of its own domestic incentive structures that have been built up and Netanyahu's long-term

01:23:19.800 mess that he's made for himself. But if they want that to be a long-term enterprise,

01:23:27.060 realize something's something better change.

01:23:31.820 Most Mo says, there's nothing now that I could hear about Israel that is so despicable or

01:23:36.220 immoral that I wouldn't think of on hearing it. Yeah, I could see that. I mean, unfortunately, 0.99

01:23:40.300 you know, I was talking to Mark Hemingway about this when he was on recently. You know,

01:23:44.620 Daryl is going to have more of a bleeding heart for the Palestinian situation. But 0.93

01:23:48.400 very clearly, Israel is not doing itself any favors here. It has ruined its reputation across

01:23:53.660 the board um it's going to have a hard time standing on anything from human rights to national

01:23:58.340 sovereignty to any of this um so as ron said you know the longer this goes on the worse it actually

01:24:03.120 is for israel and if you do actually care about the country or the people in it you know the most

01:24:07.400 important lesson they can get is uh-oh the weather in florida is

01:24:18.900 yeah i mean there are there are like reasonable you know pragmatic people let's say out there

01:24:28.400 like did you see um ram emmanuel's speech that he just delivered in israel it was basically telling

01:24:33.540 them what you guys are just talking about it's like look this is this is headed nowhere good

01:24:39.240 and you need to adapt the reality of the situation that's going on in the united states

01:24:43.820 because you know but the problem is you know you you run into this problem whenever you have like

01:24:49.100 a pathological paranoid narcissistic personality either in individuals or groups right where

01:24:54.820 just like that guy said israel hates you hates america right i used to go to israel all the

01:25:02.680 time for work when i was with the dod individually they do not hate you they know love americans

01:25:08.680 actually like you know they would breeze me through airport security and like it was

01:25:13.320 um it was very very positive sort of reaction but incredibly entitled incredibly like touchy

01:25:22.520 like if they sense at all that um you know maybe you're not fully on board then it's just a 180

01:25:29.800 kind of flip thing and so you know when you have a situation where

01:25:34.040 Where sort of at a personality level, at a sociological level, they're incapable of sort of recognizing the role that they themselves are playing in the negative situation that they find themselves in, then you have to be extremely careful with those people because they will eventually turn on you.

01:25:54.840 That's true. But again, the point is, was I think like Trudeau back in the day, he said that ridiculous quote about like, if you hate your enemies, they win or something like that.

01:26:05.500 And that's a stupid idea if you've got the Mongols invading your country or something. 0.92

01:26:11.300 But on some level, there's there is some truth to it, which is once they get you in that mode where you're not thinking clearly and you're coming from a place of hatred and animosity, you know, 0.98

01:26:21.720 and making it so that your resistance to whatever's going on is dependent upon this heightened level of emotion that you have to have in order to,

01:26:29.760 then you're going to, you're, you're, you're not going to be as effective as you, as you could be.

01:26:34.540 All right, guys, sorry about that.

01:26:36.000 We'll, we'll try to wrap this up as quickly as possible before my power goes out again.

01:26:40.900 Corbin here says base panel in the past.

01:26:43.460 If someone asked me who Daryl Cooper or martyr maid was, 0.98

01:26:46.780 i would say he's infamous on the e-right for thinking blacks souls geez man and should be 0.55

01:26:51.940 treated with dignity thank you for it mr cooper all right brother well we're gonna go ahead and

01:26:57.880 wrap this up guys uh been a pleasure speaking with daryl and uh and ron thank you both for

01:27:03.580 holding down the fort as i have been assaulted by thunderstorms uh guys if it's your first time

01:27:08.700 on this channel please make sure you subscribe click the bell notifications all that stuff so

01:27:12.440 you know when we go live and if you want to get these broadcasts as podcasts you need to subscribe

01:27:16.020 to the Oren McIntyre show on your favorite podcast platform. When you do, leave a rating

01:27:20.200 or review. It really helps with the algorithm. Thanks for watching. And as always, I'll talk

01:27:24.140 to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - July 10, 2026

Is the MOU Dead？｜ Guests： Darryl Cooper and Ronald Dodson ｜ 7⧸10⧸26

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

The Auron MacIntyre Show - July 10, 2026

Is the MOU Dead？ ｜ Guests： Darryl Cooper and Ronald Dodson ｜ 7⧸10⧸26

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

Is the MOU Dead？｜ Guests： Darryl Cooper and Ronald Dodson ｜ 7⧸10⧸26