The Auron MacIntyre Show - JD Vance Destroys Cancel Culture ｜ Guest： Jonathan Keeperman ｜ 2⧸10⧸25

00:00:00.000 Hey everybody, how's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon. I've got a great stream with

00:00:04.420 a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy. There was an event that happened just

00:00:09.440 a few days ago and it seems somewhat innocuous with all the rapid transformations that are

00:00:14.800 happening right now in the United States, but I think this one is actually a really big deal

00:00:19.780 and it's worthy of its own episode. We need to take the time to understand how monumental this

00:00:25.080 shift has been. You know, Elon had this crack team of engineers he brought over from places like

00:00:31.100 SpaceX and they're going over the different departments in the United States government.

00:00:35.940 That's the purpose of Doge is to go through all these different departments and say,

00:00:40.260 where's the waste? Where's the fraud? Where's the abuse? And one of these guys happened to have a

00:00:45.560 few tweets under an anonymous handle that weren't so politically correct and the left started losing

00:00:51.040 their mind. He was asked to resign. All of a sudden we see this pattern of cancellation that we've

00:00:56.740 seen time and time again, but this time something very different happened. All of a sudden different

00:01:03.420 people on the right started standing up saying, you can't just go around firing everyone who misspeaks

00:01:08.620 or this administration is going to fall flat on its face. Elon started running polls about whether or not

00:01:14.480 this guy should be fired at all. And then finally, JD Vance, the vice president of the United States

00:01:19.720 jumps in and says, you know what? This guy should be rehired. I am totally against his cancellation.

00:01:26.160 I think we're looking at a very different moment on the right. And joining me to talk about this

00:01:31.060 today is Jonathan Kieperman. He is the head of the Passage Prize and Passage Press. He is very

00:01:37.980 familiar with the ins and outs of cancellation. Jonathan, thanks for coming on, man.

00:01:43.120 Warren, it is great to be here and to celebrate with you total poster victory. And I think that's,

00:01:48.860 in some ways, what we sort of witnessed over the last week and with this episode is in a kind of

00:01:56.540 formal sense, the rise of the poster, or at least there's been a kind of, I think, jubilee in some

00:02:04.480 sense that it's understood now in ways that were not true previously, that this certain category of

00:02:12.820 like discourse, and we can get into what the sort of idiosyncratic features are of this discourse

00:02:20.140 community. But this thing we call shitposting and like anonymous posting doesn't now come with a kind

00:02:27.980 of death sentence if it is discovered that you participated in this discourse. And kind of the

00:02:35.880 history of cancellations, at least in the kind like we've seen, and I think you and I are like in a

00:02:42.400 similar circle of people here, these doxing attempts, and it's always coming from the same

00:02:47.160 people, by the way, which are these far left journalists, what amount to Antifa activists,

00:02:52.640 and it's worth, I think, talking about here in the course of this conversation, who this journalist

00:02:57.800 was, Catherine Long, writing for the Wall Street Journal, where she got this information, how and

00:03:04.820 for what purpose, why was this published, etc. In any case, this routine you said of doxing,

00:03:11.960 which was supposed to kill any opportunity that the target of this doxing has to participate in public

00:03:19.540 life. I think that officially ended yesterday, or, you know, two days ago, whenever it was that JD

00:03:27.800 Vance and Elon Musk rehired this young man to come back and work at Doge. So I think it's a really kind

00:03:35.340 of monumental, you know, or let's just say symbolic episode. I do also want to like ask you, because I

00:03:45.620 know you've been in sort of back and forth with various people about, okay, is wokeness over? What

00:03:50.180 does that mean? I don't think we can go so far as to say wokeness is over. I'm guilty of maybe 0.99

00:03:56.180 participating in some hyperbole to that extent online. But I do think there is some sense in

00:04:02.360 which like this particular element of wokeism, this kind of cancel effect, which was a, I think,

00:04:09.740 like a critical load bearing pillar of what wokeness was, it was a way to enforce this sort of

00:04:18.060 ideological rigidity may have maybe over now. So like cancellation may now be on pause. And that

00:04:26.520 matters a lot, I think. No, it's absolutely huge. And to be clear, I don't believe that wokeness is 0.99

00:04:33.100 some kind of unbeatable force that it's inevitable that it's just never going to go away. My point was

00:04:38.840 always that the left could not choose to put the woke away, that they are ideologically committed

00:04:45.300 to wokeness. That is part of their belief, their religious belief, and also their political formula.

00:04:52.620 And so they can't just shove it in the closet because it becomes inconvenient. However,

00:04:56.540 wokeness can be defeated. It can lose. And I think that is what we are starting to see here. As you point

00:05:01.820 out, a critical load bearing pillar of the left strategy has been cutting the right off from its

00:05:09.340 vanguard, right? The left can say whatever it wants. Young people on the left, this is just the nature

00:05:15.180 of all young people, right? You get out there, you want to change the world, you say things that are

00:05:19.680 transgressive, you want to push the limits. That's just the definition of being a young person in general.

00:05:25.360 And when you're doing it politically, well, on the left, you're going to be saying things like,

00:05:29.560 well, Mao was right, or Stalin was right, or all these things. 0.96

00:05:33.080 Or Luigi Mangione should go kill people, okay? You should just like call for the death of anybody 0.98

00:05:38.760 you don't like. 0.99

00:05:40.160 Right. And this is what they do all the time. They do this as part of Antifa, whatever.

00:05:44.760 Bill Ayers can blow up as many buildings as he wants, kill people. It doesn't matter. He's going to 0.96

00:05:49.920 get a cozy professorship somewhere. However, anyone on the right who might have said, uh, you know,

00:05:55.860 uh, yeah, I'm racist. Ha ha ha ha. That person just becomes unhirable for the rest of their life.

00:06:01.420 And this is just an asymmetry that cannot be allowed to exist because that means all the left

00:06:06.760 wing's young talent is allowed to come in, circulate, reinvigorate their institutions and become

00:06:12.540 leaders while all the right wing's, uh, talent gets completely decimated before they even step into

00:06:18.680 the arena. They basically become unhirable before they even begin their careers. There's just no

00:06:24.240 way you can be a successful political movement when this is the way you operate.

00:06:28.460 And let's think about too, it's not just that it's like cutting out the vanguard, although it,

00:06:34.320 that it is doing that. And so it's, it's silencing or sort of eliminating a certain element of right

00:06:40.120 wing thought that can help push, you know, the sentiment on the right in one direction or another,

00:06:45.540 but you also think about, okay, what kinds of people participate in like edgy speech? Um, and

00:06:53.060 if you were a young person growing up in your formative years throughout this period of the

00:06:59.520 last decade, that we'll just like call the woke era for lack of a better term. And you didn't have

00:07:05.100 the instinct to try to upset the apple cart. Okay. That says something about you. Um, that that's not

00:07:12.680 necessarily a bad sign, but it certainly suggests that, you know, you're the kind of person you play

00:07:18.120 by the rules. You understand the constraints of different kinds of social pressures. You're very

00:07:23.140 much risk averse. And if you're talking about sort of the entirety of a political roster that you need

00:07:31.260 to make interesting things happen. And certainly given where we're at in our culture, in our political

00:07:37.040 moment, the kinds of radical changes that we need to see happen within our politics and within our

00:07:42.640 culture, what you're also removing from the, this sort of pool of people are precisely the kinds of

00:07:50.140 personalities who are going to be most likely to want to initiate the sorts of changes that need to

00:07:55.520 be made and take the kinds of risks that need to be taken in order to make sort of big things happen.

00:08:01.820 And so it's, it's, it works on so many different levels to the benefit of the left to completely

00:08:08.000 close the door, not just on the kind of speech, but the kind of person who just wants to get online

00:08:16.380 and participate with their friends, you know, like in, I don't want to just like be so dismissive to say

00:08:23.780 that it's just merely jokes. I mean, they are jokes, but they operate like in this kind of complicated

00:08:31.180 discursive space where they are funny and they use humor to sort of hyperbolize or, or highlight

00:08:38.800 certain points, but it's also a way again, to inject a kind of sentiment or opinion into the public

00:08:45.760 discourse that would otherwise be sort of impossible to contribute. And so it's really important that we

00:08:53.240 preserve people's ability to sort of make these statements, even as kind of unseemly, uh, or

00:09:00.740 uncomfortable as they might make, um, you know, our, our official sort of political spokespeople.

00:09:07.320 And this was so great about like JD Vance coming out and saying, I am not going to be

00:09:13.360 bow, breathe, uh, bow, breathe, brow beaten. And I'm not going to succumb to this kind of moral cudgel,

00:09:19.640 this moral blackmail that the left uses to get me to ostracize and condemn and disavow what this kid

00:09:27.520 said. Instead, he made the very reasonable point that this is just part of how people behave. This

00:09:33.340 is just part of how kids talk. And so that was incredibly refreshing. And I think actually took a

00:09:38.880 real amount of courage for JD Vance to do that. Absolutely. Again, you, you think about the way

00:09:45.260 that this gets approached here. You point out, well, these are jokes, but they, they're opening up a space

00:09:49.620 to have the discussion, right? They're, they're, they're wedging that window open as humor so often

00:09:54.280 does. And you can kind of see that reflected in the way that Vance has addressed other parties,

00:09:58.740 even on major news networks, right? Sorry, Margaret, I just don't care. I just don't care.

00:10:04.100 I just don't want this person in my country. I don't need another reason. I don't need to morally

00:10:09.220 justify myself to you. I am someone living in a real nation. That's not an economic zone. It's not

00:10:15.360 an office park. And I get to decide who lives here, me and the people in this nation get to care about

00:10:20.560 our families enough to say no. And you, you can sit there and try to harangue me with all your

00:10:25.260 leftists, you know, uh, you know, uh, moralizing, I don't care. We're just going to say it and move

00:10:30.800 on. Those kinds of things don't happen unless posters are posting it. You know, it's a government

00:10:35.940 of the posters by the posters at this point. And we know Vance is pretty plugged in to, to what's

00:10:41.860 happening there. But like you said, the way that he approached this was really important to me

00:10:46.340 because it's not, it's not just that he said, Hey, give this guy a pass. You know, that, that

00:10:51.080 would be one thing that would itself be impressive. He said specifically, we don't let the left set

00:10:56.920 the frame anymore. We don't let left-wing journalists decide what conservative or right-wing politics

00:11:02.340 looks like anymore. That is huge. That is massive because he recognizes the function that the

00:11:08.780 cancellation is playing. It's not just, Oh, well, we got to be careful about what people are saying.

00:11:13.080 We've got to, you know, make them do the apology tour thing. No, he says specifically, I know what's

00:11:18.020 happening here. You guys are trying to tell us who can be in our movement and you want to remove all

00:11:22.200 the most effective people, all the people who are most capable of communicating or getting the job

00:11:26.680 done. And we are not going to let you do it. We just don't care. We hope you're enjoying your Air

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00:11:59.420 See your Canada.com. Yeah. And I, you know, again, with JD Vance too, there's of course this important

00:12:05.400 dynamic that, that needs to be spoken out loud, which is he has an Indian wife and has half Indian

00:12:11.380 kids. And the, you know, the sort of, uh, rhetorical sin that this kid committed was saying

00:12:18.740 one, normalize Indian hate. That was like the big tweet that they went after. And the other one,

00:12:24.380 which was something like I was racist before it was cool to be racist or something like that. And

00:12:29.460 there may be been some other kind of spicy tweets. And I think it's really important in this episode

00:12:36.260 that what was said was, would have been clearly and unambiguously verboten under the old rules,

00:12:44.760 because this wouldn't have had the same effect if we'd be sitting here like litigating sort of the

00:12:51.080 degree to which, you know, these statements were bad or, you know, were something that we should,

00:12:58.200 we should allow and like formal public discourse. No, it's, it's actually a good thing in this case

00:13:04.340 that these are like, these are, these are pretty spicy things to say. And nobody in a government

00:13:09.720 position should be saying something like that. And it's, it's also important that JD Vance with his

00:13:16.280 Indian kids has something at stake here and can still tell these people, no, I am not participating 1.00

00:13:23.520 in this kind of witch hunt and in this dishonest, uh, uh, kind of, um, implementation and enforcement

00:13:34.320 of rules that you don't apply to your own people. Instead, what we are going to do is determine for

00:13:41.480 ourselves within the kind of circle of the right on the doge team privately, whether or not this kid

00:13:48.780 is up to perform the task that he has been charged with, um, you know, by virtue of his work at doge.

00:13:56.700 And we're going to decide if he can work with his peers and we're going to decide, you know, amongst

00:14:03.020 ourselves, whether or not this person is a liability because he might fly off the handle, or if in fact,

00:14:10.780 it is just the case that he's a young guy with an anonymous count online saying things, uh, that

00:14:17.900 anybody might say sort of privately amongst their friends or in a locker room for jokes or in this

00:14:23.980 kind of ambiguous discursive space that we spoke about earlier. So it's, it actually is really

00:14:29.360 important that what he said was, um, like struck directly at the kinds of things that, that wouldn't

00:14:35.140 have been allowed under the previous kind of moral regime. And so it, yeah, like there are so many

00:14:40.740 dimensions to this where it does in so many ways, just completely sideline. Now that tactic, that

00:14:47.220 strategy that they have to attack young, right. People. Well, and again, this is so critical because

00:14:54.420 it's taking ownership of the discipline of your side, right? Because again, has been something

00:15:01.380 outsourced entirely to the left. Oh, well, if you, if you, everyone knows this, everybody knows this.

00:15:06.820 If you want to cancel someone on the right and you're on the right, you hit them from the left.

00:15:11.860 You never hit them from the right. You never come out and be like, oh, this guy said he was a

00:15:15.060 communist in the past. That's never what happens. You always go to his, you know, to, to his left and

00:15:20.820 say, oh, at one point he went to this meeting. At one point he talked to this guy. At one point he

00:15:26.020 was associated with this thing and it, you attack them from the left. The right knows that the

00:15:31.300 power of cancellation up to this point has been on the left. And that's where they have gone time

00:15:36.820 and time again in order to like their internecine warfare gets settled by pulling the left into it. 0.96

00:15:42.820 And that is a loser tactic. I mean, you know, if you just want to make a biblical appeal here,

00:15:47.380 the Bible specifically says discipline happens inside the church. Don't appeal to Caesar. Don't appeal to

00:15:53.380 Rome. Don't appeal to the magistrate. It happens in the church first, first in between the two of you,

00:15:59.460 then to an elder, then to the church body, but you do not go outside the family to settle business.

00:16:06.980 And that is how the left handles it. They decide whether Bill Ayers is a terrorist or a professor.

00:16:13.220 They decide whether or not someone with a communist past is just a slightly overzealous, you know,

00:16:19.780 activist who has a promising future or someone they actually want to get rid of. They make those

00:16:24.340 decisions. The right never makes those decisions for them. Never. And what we're seeing is finally

00:16:31.300 the right saying the same thing. We, you know, maybe this guy gets sit down and say, Hey man,

00:16:35.300 cool it with the posts, whatever, you know, but that's what happens. It happens internally.

00:16:39.300 He doesn't get skewered. The left doesn't pull him down. He doesn't get thrown to the wolves.

00:16:44.260 It is handled internally. And then you move forward stronger.

00:16:48.340 Yeah. And, and what's important here, I think, and something that might get missed in this discourse

00:16:54.260 is that, um, you know, those of us defending this kid are also making some kind of like

00:16:59.380 nihilistic claim about there being no rules or that there's no expectations of a certain level

00:17:04.740 of decorum or responsibility. Once you get into a position of power or public prominence,

00:17:10.340 that's not the case at all. There are still rules and there are going to be norms. And there is still

00:17:15.620 an expectation that if you're working in the federal government and you are working on behalf

00:17:22.100 of the entirety of the American people, that you do so with respect that you sort of, uh, appropriately

00:17:29.860 honor the significance of that position. And one thing the left failed at was that they didn't take

00:17:35.700 that responsibility seriously. And we don't want to repeat that mistake. However, now we are making

00:17:42.820 the rules around which, uh, those expectations around norms are determined. And we are going to enforce

00:17:49.860 those on our own terms as well. We're not going to let hostile journalists come in and tell us that

00:17:56.100 we have to fire somebody. We're not going to let the, by the way, the manufactured sentiment that the

00:18:02.820 left tries to create, um, in order to provoke an overreaction, which, you know, I, okay. So I,

00:18:10.260 I think it's important to actually, I wonder what you think about this, that actually the initial

00:18:14.500 reaction was to fire him and that like following the usual script initially, they just fired him.

00:18:22.820 Okay. This bad, there's bad press. They don't want to deal with it. And the expedient thing has always

00:18:27.860 been, you just put, toss this person aside and then you move on because the work of doge is more

00:18:33.620 important than this, than this one person. I'm sort of sympathetic to that. I think it's wrong,

00:18:38.180 but I'm sympathetic to that argument. So they did that. And, but then in this case,

00:18:42.340 it was through the process of then the right on Twitter. And this is important too. It didn't happen

00:18:48.100 like in the New York times and the pages of the New York times, there's just a bunch of people on

00:18:52.180 Twitter negotiating then whether that was the right choice and then offering an alternative

00:18:57.940 and being able to explain directly to Elon Musk and to the people at doge and to JD Vance,

00:19:04.580 why it actually is a good thing for us to reassert power over and control over these decisions.

00:19:10.420 Um, so, you know, I, I don't want to like make too, maybe too much of a big deal out of it, but I do

00:19:16.900 think maybe just like Trump losing in 2020 kind of like has turned out to be a good thing. Uh,

00:19:23.860 maybe having this kid initially be fired and then us rethinking this strategy was,

00:19:30.260 is actually a good thing in the end because we can like more forcefully than demonstrate

00:19:34.660 that we're in some new era. This isn't just a continuation of the old way of doing things.

00:19:39.540 Yeah. In fact, it's almost, it's so advantageous that I'm tempted to believe it's 40 tests,

00:19:45.940 right? Like, like, like it's a faint of, okay, we put this guy out there. Oh no,

00:19:50.660 we got a fire hit, but you know, they were ready to, to, to move it. I mean,

00:19:54.820 I would like to believe that they just heard the, they heard the, you know, like you're saying,

00:19:58.820 they heard the feedback and they, they responded once kind of the, uh, you know, memetic train

00:20:03.780 got rolling, they recognize the air and they made that adjustment, but I don't know. So quick that,

00:20:08.980 you know, maybe they did, you know, kind of recognize that this is something that needed to happen.

00:20:13.140 And they let people, whether it's a trap or not, whether it's, you know, 5d chess or not,

00:20:18.580 you're right that this is a, it's critical that this happened because it really sets a,

00:20:22.500 an entirely different precedent for the right going forward. And people need to understand

00:20:26.500 that this is going to trickle down significantly. This doesn't just impact JD Vance or Doge.

00:20:32.420 This is a signal to all a conservative media outlets, think tanks, uh, you know,

00:20:37.700 NGOs, everything. This is how we do business now. This is how you're allowed to do business

00:20:42.820 that we, we don't just leave our men stranded on the field. We make sure that we go back,

00:20:47.860 we pick these guys up and we get them back on the front line. And that is a game changer.

00:20:52.980 People just don't understand when you were on the left, it meant being protected forever.

00:20:57.780 You're going to have a job. You're going to get paid. You're going to, if you, if you make a

00:21:01.780 mistake, someone's going to stand up for you. You're going to get turned around and put somewhere

00:21:05.700 else. If you end up getting bounced out of the position, being on the left, having the sinecure,

00:21:10.660 making sure that you were untouchable, being on the right, dancing on landmines all day long.

00:21:15.860 The guy right next to you, like we said, is just looking to cancel you immediately. That's all

00:21:21.300 that happened. The fact that this has changed so significantly is huge. And to your point about JD

00:21:26.980 Vance and having an Indian family, you know, the, the fact that the press didn't give a crap about 0.72

00:21:33.060 his Indian family beforehand is amazing, right? Like none of these people, oh, don't you care about 1.00

00:21:38.100 your kids? Don't you care about your wife? Like they were talking about how they were tokens,

00:21:41.940 how, you know, JD Vance is a hypocrite, blah, blah, blah. All of a sudden they care deeply about 0.99

00:21:46.260 his familiar relations and, you know, how he's standing up for them. But again, Vance was not

00:21:51.540 baited, right? He turned around and said, look, yeah. Okay. I don't want you making fun of my kid,

00:21:55.940 but you know what? I really don't want my kid being so soft that they would take that, you know,

00:22:00.260 and be offended by it, that that would destroy their lives, that they would think that they need to

00:22:03.780 destroy other people's lives for having an opinion about them. Like that is so huge. Just,

00:22:08.580 just not caving to that pressure and immediately turning around and being like,

00:22:11.460 no, actually, like my kids are resilient and I'm raising them to be able to handle a joke

00:22:16.500 and we can just take that and move on. And you're not going to guilt me into any of this.

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00:22:51.380 Yeah. And I, and I want to add on this point too, I do want to give credit to certain people, uh, who stood

00:22:58.500 up for this kid and offered him an opportunity for, you know, to go talk to them and, and sort of

00:23:05.940 explain himself. And I'm thinking specifically of some like Indian friends of mine and people who were

00:23:11.460 involved in the administration and close to doge and ultimately, you know, participated in this

00:23:17.300 decision-making. And, uh, you know, there's an old land shark tweet that comes to mind here,

00:23:22.660 which I'll just like keep on pause for now, but you know, like, uh, Indian Bronson actually was the

00:23:27.460 first person I saw sort of to tweet about this. I did see, uh, Balaji Srinivasan posted about this

00:23:33.860 and making a kind of, again, this sort of meta case for why it's important to allow this kid at

00:23:39.220 least the opportunity to apologize because we don't want to give power to the left and this kind of,

00:23:44.260 you know, uh, apparatus of Antifa activists and journalists, et cetera. And, and I'm not going to name

00:23:50.420 any names, but there were people inside of doge to, uh, Indians who realized, you know what,

00:23:54.900 there's a bigger object here. We have bigger goals than this, and we're not going to let ourselves

00:24:00.420 get distracted and sidelined by like these petty, stupid personal slights that someone might feel 0.99

00:24:07.860 over an insensitive remark. That is, uh, just a, a totally miss a misunderstanding and a miscalculation 0.99

00:24:15.300 of what our priorities are. And on the right, especially right now, there is so much

00:24:20.100 low hanging fruit for us to pick. There will be fights that, you know, might threaten to sort of

00:24:24.980 fracture the coalition in the future, and they'll run along a number of different dimensions and

00:24:30.180 perhaps even like questions over, you know, immigration and H1Bs will probably be a part of

00:24:35.460 that conversation, but we don't need to front run those, uh, potential fractures in the coalition

00:24:42.580 right now. There's plenty of us, uh, for us to do together. And there's still, you know, even though I

00:24:48.900 think sort of woke in the left and Democrats generally are clearly exhausted and clearly on

00:24:53.620 retreat, they're not like permanently defeated and we need to keep our sights set on what the

00:24:59.860 objective is here. And that's going to mean that we have a more tolerance for these coalition partners

00:25:06.260 and some, uh, like tolerance for where these disagreements are not just like insensitivities,

00:25:12.260 but then like, okay, let's also think, you know, the, the tech, right, these new people coming in,

00:25:16.340 they're going to have like a different set of values in some respect. And again, I don't,

00:25:21.380 this doesn't mean we compromise on the things we care about. People should not compromise on

00:25:25.300 the things we care about, but we should have a clear sense of where our fights are. And again,

00:25:30.500 I just want to say those people involved in getting him, his job back deserve credit for

00:25:35.540 understanding the moment and understanding what's important. Absolutely. And it's really critical to

00:25:41.940 break this idea that racism is the, just the worst thing you could possibly do. Look, right. First,

00:25:49.540 racism is fake. Okay. That's it's a fake commie word. You shouldn't have ethnic hatred for people.

00:25:54.340 Just to be really clear. Let's get, get out of the way. I don't believe you should have ethnic 1.00

00:25:57.780 hatred for people in general. That said the, what the left calls racism is just an entirely

00:26:04.340 manufactured thing. It's very modern. It's, it's specifically created to demonize many very normal

00:26:10.820 positions. Like one of the things this guy said that people were losing their mind about, he said,

00:26:14.340 I wouldn't want to really date outside my ethnicity. Now you can make a decision whether

00:26:18.900 or not you want to do that, but who are you to tell this guy who he's going to date? Like it's

00:26:23.860 entirely up to him. And by the way, his decision is very normal historically and very normal today.

00:26:30.020 Just statistically, if you look at dating patterns, most people won't say it out loud,

00:26:35.620 but he's just expressing the opinion that the vast majority of people practice in real life.

00:26:40.340 Again, you might not want to practice that and that's fine, but this guy is not saying anything

00:26:45.780 insane. And when you let people say that this is racist and therefore we have to worry about

00:26:51.300 racism and it's the worst thing, I'm sorry, but being a communist is just worst actually.

00:26:55.860 Like that's actually a much more morally abhorrent thing. Again, I don't think you should hate

00:27:00.420 people for their ethnicity, but this is just not what we're talking about here in general. And the fact

00:27:06.340 that we can defang that we can, we can move away from this hypersensitivity towards an issue that,

00:27:11.940 yeah, again, like I, you know, some behavior I I'll, you know, and when I see it, I'll tell you,

00:27:16.260 it's not good, but ultimately this is not the death knell. This is not the worst sin a human

00:27:21.060 being commit. It's not the thing that ends your career because it smells slightly of this thing.

00:27:26.100 And that's really important because again, the left is going to throw this over and over at you again.

00:27:30.660 If you allow this early on in your administration, that's how the first Trump administration ended up

00:27:35.140 with this problem, right? You had a lot of heavy hitters who came in and they wanted to make changes,

00:27:39.620 but they couldn't make it through Senate confirmation or other issues that got bounced

00:27:43.380 out of the administration. And we ended up with like John Boltons. If you want John Boltons,

00:27:47.620 then encourage this stuff. If you don't, then you need to be able to brush it off.

00:27:51.220 Yeah. And I noticed, I mean, to that point, uh, I I'm, I'm, I'm almost hesitant to say it out loud

00:27:57.380 because I don't want to draw attention to it, but you know, there are people trying to do the same

00:28:02.340 thing right now to like Darren Beattie who was pushed out of the first Trump administration for

00:28:08.660 some, uh, you know, vague associations with, um, certain groups. It wasn't even anything he said.

00:28:14.420 It was just like these vague associations with groups that were considered racist.

00:28:18.660 Now they're pointing to various tweets where you can read the tweets as being sort of racist. And

00:28:24.900 actually the, the response, I think you're right. The response to that is not to litigate

00:28:29.940 whether or not these things are racist. The response is to not have the debate over this

00:28:36.500 ambiguously, infinitely amorphous term that frankly means nothing and will never be applied

00:28:44.340 in a consistent way. And so again, I mean, you know, we, it's almost like cringe to talk about

00:28:50.420 like hypocrisy. Okay. Imagine if the other side did this, but we just went through 10 years

00:28:56.900 of the entire left institutional class telling us that we were bad people for being white. Okay.

00:29:05.060 That if you are white, you are somehow guilty of some sin that needs to be redressed, uh, through some 0.95

00:29:14.100 kind of political subservience to various people of color that just simply by virtue of being white, 0.97

00:29:21.620 that made you a bad guilty person. So we don't, we just don't have to sit here again and be lectured

00:29:29.700 by people who actually have no interest at all in like deriving any kind of moral truth or coming to some

00:29:38.660 moral understanding about what our relationship actually should be, you know, in a kind of

00:29:45.380 pluralistic democracy. No, because they're not interested in that. So don't get fooled into

00:29:50.820 engaging in that debate. You just don't have the debate at all. And I think that has to be the move

00:29:55.860 going forward. Or let me just rephrase that a little bit to the extent that that debate happens.

00:30:01.220 Again, it happens internally. We are going to create and enforce norms for ourselves.

00:30:07.380 We are not going to grant the left moral authority over us. That has to be our ethos going forward.

00:30:16.180 Yeah. I've said this many times, but it's not about not having standards. It's about making

00:30:20.580 sure that your standards are your own, that you're not outsourcing them to some other moral authority.

00:30:26.020 And you're right. The left has, it's not just that no one on the left, no one on the left will ever

00:30:31.060 be fired or canceled for their anti white bigotry. It's that the anti white bigotry was mandatory. 0.61

00:30:37.300 It's that it was institutional. You are not sufficiently racist towards white people.

00:30:42.820 Therefore, you are a bad person. That was literally the doctrine of our corporations, 0.97

00:30:47.460 our universities, our educational institutions, and our media apparatus for at least a decade,

00:30:53.380 probably more. So yeah, no, sorry. I don't give a crap what some dude tweeted. Like, I just don't

00:30:59.220 care. Is that guy running CNN? Is that guy running the department of education? Is that guy running a

00:31:04.500 major corporation? No, then shut up because you didn't care about any of those people when they 0.83

00:31:09.540 were attacking white people. You certainly don't actually care about them, you know, 0.99

00:31:13.460 endangering JD Vance's half Indian children. You don't care. If you had your way, you'd have a guy 1.00

00:31:19.060 like Luigi shooting those people. Let's be really clear. You don't give a crap about them. You don't

00:31:23.700 care about their safety. You don't care about them growing up in a world where they see themselves

00:31:28.100 reflected. It's all just garbage. It's all just moral blackmail. And that's exactly what Vance 1.00

00:31:33.780 said. I'm not falling for this moral blackmail. You can't do this to me. I don't care. And you know

00:31:38.340 what this, this revealed a lot to me because there were some people and I knew they were weak,

00:31:44.180 but it's nice for them to come out and show it guys like Aaron, Eric Weinstein coming out and oh boy,

00:31:49.940 you can't say that stuff. Oh, thanks man. Like I didn't know this was coming IDW. Oh, we're for free

00:31:56.020 speech. We're for free speech. We care desperately about free speech. The minute, the minute speech

00:32:01.700 frees up just a little bit. It's oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What are you talking about? Oh, we actually,

00:32:06.100 we were for the wokeness. We just wanted that little space where we could keep saying what we

00:32:10.260 like to say. They never cared about free speech. I knew they didn't, but it's nice for them to

00:32:14.100 announce that, you know, Sam Harris already unmasked himself, but great for Eric Weinstein to jump on

00:32:18.740 that train. Yeah. The backlash is worse than, you know, the initial crime and, and, uh, you know,

00:32:24.500 so, okay. So is it about free speech for them? Like, no, it's not about free speech. What are they

00:32:29.300 trying to do? They're trying to preserve this status quo, anti equilibrium or the illusion of the

00:32:35.460 equilibrium that, you know, and like many boomers, for example, had kind of consented to there,

00:32:41.860 there was like this tacit sort of agreement about how we would sort of treat ratios, ratios,

00:32:49.220 race issues in this country that prevailed basically through the nineties. And it was like,

00:32:54.020 we're just going to kind of ignore this stuff and not, it's like, don't ask, don't tell policy almost.

00:32:59.620 And this kind of was okay for a while. I mean, there were various problems associated with it,

00:33:05.220 but suffice to say that was the equilibrium that was in place. Um, the left, uh, defected from that

00:33:12.340 agreement, the left defected from that arrangement and the right for a long time was like stuck in this

00:33:18.660 sort of paralysis where they didn't know how to then sort of reorient, reorient their views and the way

00:33:26.020 they talk about this stuff as the left was, was breaking from the equilibrium. Someone like Eric

00:33:30.580 Weinstein or some of these, you know, quote unquote, you know, sensible centrists, all they want is to

00:33:36.900 reassert that old equilibrium and what inclusive of the left's defection from that equilibrium.

00:33:44.420 They don't actually care about that. What they, what they really care about is that the right is

00:33:48.740 going to recognize that the left defected and the right then is going to now construct our own norms

00:33:55.780 and rules about how to address these issues. And frankly, it's a long time coming. And I actually,

00:34:01.940 what's good about them revealing themselves is we don't want them participating in this negotiation

00:34:08.900 over what this new orientation looks like. They have, you know, this, this sort of model that we're

00:34:14.740 describing where we create norms and rules for ourselves. Well, that implies that there are people

00:34:20.020 within that circle, you know, the friend circle who get to participate in the negotiation of those

00:34:26.820 norms. And it's very good to know those people are not going to be allowed in. They don't get to help

00:34:32.820 participate in this negotiation that's going to happen. Yeah. I tried not to chuckle too hard when

00:34:38.660 I saw James Lindsay crying about being shut out. Like no one of the administration's listening to me.

00:34:43.060 It's like, Oh, that's gotta be terrible, man. Utterly boxed out. There's a club. There's a club.

00:34:47.860 Okay. You're just not in it, buddy. Learn to post him in mystery growth. It's tough, tough scene, tough

00:34:53.860 scene. Uh, so, uh, you mentioned the importance of discussing who Catherine long is the wall street

00:35:00.020 journal, uh, journalist. Um, I say that with all disrespect, uh, who, who, uh, ended up running,

00:35:08.260 uh, you know, the piece that kind of outed this guy. Can you give us a little bit of background? I know our,

00:35:12.580 our mutual friend, Ryan nationalists talked about it a little bit. Yeah. So definitely find Ryan

00:35:18.180 nationalist story in the spectator about this. Uh, she previously worked at business insider.

00:35:23.380 When I say work, she would just like, you know, give them docs material to work with. Um, so she 0.96

00:35:29.140 was, she participated in Ryan nationalist docs. He worked for USA ID in central Asia. She has a long

00:35:37.460 history. You can go back and find various grants that she's associated with for work in place.

00:35:42.420 Like Kazakhstan and elsewhere. Who is this person exactly? What is she doing? We don't know. How

00:35:48.820 did she dig up these archive tweets and firstly identify who this person's alt was find the offending

00:35:58.180 tweets. And what's interesting about this is that she was hired by the wall street journal one week

00:36:03.940 ago. This is the first story that she published for the wall street journal. Um, it is almost a 100%

00:36:12.100 certainty that this information was fed to her by someone else. My suspicion based on this person's

00:36:18.740 gloating about this on blue sky and previous, uh, instances of doxing that he has been, uh,

00:36:27.780 involved in is a guy named Travis Brown. Travis Brown is a former Silicon Valley tech guy. He's,

00:36:34.500 uh, I'm not sure exactly what his expertise is, uh, I'm not sure exactly what his expertise is,

00:36:37.220 but he was, uh, worked at Twitter, uh, pre Elon Twitter. He bragged about having source code for

00:36:43.780 Twitter and being able to farm Twitter for user information that otherwise wouldn't have been

00:36:50.100 public. He now works for an NGO in Germany called hate aid and the German government sponsors hate aid.

00:36:59.940 They, the German government sponsors, Travis Brown, putting together dossiers and lists of crime 0.93

00:37:07.300 thinkers that the German government can prosecute. Uh, the irony of that I'm sure isn't lost on most

00:37:14.100 people paying attention. He also gets money from an organization called the open knowledge foundation,

00:37:20.020 uh, who also have sued Twitter, um, to maintain their access to private user data. So, you know,

00:37:29.300 there's some interesting confluence of interest here and given doges targets over the last couple of

00:37:37.060 weeks, especially with this federal grant money, especially going after these bureaucracies that

00:37:43.300 we might broadly call the deep state. Uh, it's interesting now that the wall street journal of all

00:37:50.180 places has decided despite the low, uh, standards of this article, frankly, to publish this docs material as

00:37:58.740 a direct attack, obviously on Doge. So I don't have any deeper information than that. I can only

00:38:06.020 speculate based on what's publicly available knowledge, but there are suspicious elements to this, uh,

00:38:13.940 whole episode and this article that are worth exploring in more detail.

00:38:18.180 Yeah. And, and again, it's critical, critical for people to understand that there is very little,

00:38:24.660 if no air between journalists, deep state actors, globalist, uh, you know, uh, globalist alliances

00:38:32.420 and Antifa. These are the same people. These are the same people with the same goals. They are networking.

00:38:39.220 They are interacting. Like you said, we, you know, it's, it's speculation in theory, but in practice,

00:38:46.340 there's zero chance that the wall street journal just picked up this person in a week and decided

00:38:52.340 to turn around and print this basically gossip column on their behalf. If they didn't have some 0.92

00:38:58.340 kind of prompting, right? Like this, this is a paper that is very interested in the maintenance of the

00:39:03.860 status quo, the maintenance of the managerial regime. Uh, they are heavily invested in its continuance.

00:39:09.700 Uh, they are more than willing to take information from the kind of actors who would distribute it in

00:39:15.940 an attempt to peel off, take a scalp from somebody early on in an attempt to slow the momentum of an

00:39:21.380 organization that is very clearly coming for a lot of the people and, uh, you know, kind of

00:39:26.740 infrastructure that they rely on. Uh, and you should understand these people are enemies. Like these

00:39:32.020 people declare themselves, you know, when Donald Trump said they were the enemy of the people,

00:39:36.020 it was just, it was just absolutely correct. You know, that that's how they're behaving.

00:39:39.540 And that's exactly how you should perceive them. I want to just say quickly too, is the, uh, approach

00:39:45.940 to these people, the response to these people has to just be a blanket and summary. No, do anything.

00:39:51.780 They sort of recommend, uh, the right do vis-a-vis personnel or any kinds of political choices.

00:39:58.980 It is the equivalent of negotiating with terrorists. They are not, uh, acting in good faith.

00:40:04.500 They are activists and they want to do harm to the mission and objectives of the Trump administration,

00:40:11.380 of Doge, et cetera. And you cannot negotiate with them. And it's almost like no matter what they dig

00:40:17.060 up, even if it's really, really bad, you have to say, no, you cannot allow them to assert any power

00:40:25.140 at all over any of the decision-making. Uh, and that's it. There just can't be any exceptions to

00:40:32.500 this. The only way that you get rid of this over time is that you become completely unwilling to

00:40:40.100 engage with them at all. And frankly, nobody cares. There, there really isn't any consequence

00:40:46.660 for saying no to them. And so all this really requires is a certain kind of spine. It requires

00:40:53.220 JD Vance. And he's so good at this being able to go in front of, you know, whoever at CBS news,

00:40:58.740 Margaret, and just saying, I don't care. And that's it. That's the response.

00:41:03.620 And it's so critical, not because it, not only because it defangs the attack of the left,

00:41:08.580 which is extremely important. It keeps them from disrupting what the right is doing. It keeps them

00:41:12.580 from setting the frame and the standards, but you have to understand why journalists do what they

00:41:17.300 do. Okay. As someone, I just worked in local journalism. I was never in Washington DC. I never

00:41:22.500 did any of the heavy hitting stuff, but just in my experience, journalists are almost uniformly 0.90

00:41:28.100 mentally ill drug addicts who only do their poorly paid job because they are, uh, they are compensated 0.95

00:41:36.100 in influence. These are losers who would otherwise have no influence who do their job because 1.00

00:41:42.180 basically they get to stick it to people who otherwise would be superior to them because, 0.94

00:41:48.100 you know, uh, you know, because they, they wield some kind of information, some kind of platform

00:41:51.940 where they can drag them. The minute that these people lose power, the minute that they lose the

00:41:57.860 ability to cancel people, the minute that they lose the ability to destroy someone's life, the minute that

00:42:02.100 they lose the ability to redirect the direction that a government agency is going with one little

00:42:08.660 article. The minute that they lose that power, they lose everything. They lose all motivation.

00:42:13.940 All morale is destroyed. You can already see how the left is reeling. You can already see how desperate

00:42:19.540 they are to try to find some kind of foothold. Currently the hill they're trained to die on is we've

00:42:24.500 got to fund transgender operas in Columbia. Like that's the hill right now. Woke not being put away, 1.00

00:42:31.300 by the way. Uh, but, but like that, that's the hill they want to die on. Like that's how desperate

00:42:35.860 they are. If you can steal their ability to ruin people's lives and pressure people, you don't just

00:42:41.940 win a victory by protecting your own people. You also just destroy the left's morale permanently

00:42:47.300 because they are so driven by this class of hanger on these parasites who do nothing but run around and 0.98

00:42:53.700 try to destroy people in public that when that's gone, man, the whole world opens up. You just don't 0.98

00:42:59.460 realize how much of your behavior and how much of what can be done, how much of the political reality

00:43:03.940 is constrained by the existence of people like Catherine long. And once they don't have a job,

00:43:08.420 once they don't have the motivation to do what they're doing for the pennies that they do it for,

00:43:12.740 man, the whole world opens up. Yeah. I just, I want to paint like a quick visual for, for the readers

00:43:18.660 to kind of like, you know, uh, imagine like how this works and what what's happened over the last

00:43:24.660 couple of weeks, which is, you know, imagine, uh, there's like this populous sentiment and it's

00:43:30.100 created on X or like the Maga people have some desire or interest, and they want to communicate

00:43:36.260 that to decision makers, to JD Vance and Donald Trump and Elon Musk, et cetera. So the, in the,

00:43:42.340 in the old version of things, the Maga right could kind of organically, um, sort of, uh, aggregate

00:43:49.540 their interests and sentiment, but then it would pass through this, this media filter. And this is

00:43:55.380 where the sort of left comes in people like Catherine long or the wall street journal, wherever they come

00:44:00.180 in and they intercept that message and they manipulate it and they sort of scramble the signal

00:44:06.820 and then feed it to the decision makers in this kind of perverted, uh, way. And it's a kind of

00:44:14.420 degraded message. And so what the decision makers are basing their decisions on is a, is a false

00:44:21.780 assumption about the actual sentiment of their, of their base. And so what we've seen now is that

00:44:28.420 middle layer where, you know, the New York times or the wall street journal or whomever steps in

00:44:34.580 to interpret and then feed that signal up the chain to the decision makers has been totally removed.

00:44:41.620 And like, this is the magic of, of Twitter and X, like it, it is just this straight information

00:44:48.660 stream directly to the decision makers. And I think what we're seeing, part of what we're seeing

00:44:53.700 and why suddenly like JD Vance and Elon Musk have the courage to just say no to these people

00:45:01.220 is because we're able to tell them that's what we want. That that's kind of what, what, what is best

00:45:06.180 for us. And they're taking that on board to their credit. So I think we're in just like this totally

00:45:11.540 new environment where things are possible now that wouldn't have been possible, you know,

00:45:16.340 pre-Ela on Twitter. And it's, you know, it opens up all sorts of new opportunities for us.

00:45:22.340 Yeah. It really is that radical disintermediation that changes everything. And again,

00:45:29.220 the left is not inevitable. The left wasn't even popular. They won because they had a 800 pound gorilla

00:45:35.780 on the scale. They had, they were directing the entire federal government to fund them.

00:45:40.740 They were using every, you know, corporation to censor you. They were using every media outlet to

00:45:45.940 make sure that your politicians couldn't hear you and that you couldn't hear them.

00:45:49.940 All you have to do is wipe some of this stuff away and everything changes radically.

00:45:53.620 I wanted to get into the, the Kennedy center and, you know, passage press and, and, and, and a bunch

00:45:59.060 of other stuff with you, but I know you've got other commitments. So we've got a few questions from

00:46:04.500 the audience stacking up here before we switch over, Jonathan, where can people find your work?

00:46:11.060 Yeah. So I'm Lomas on Twitter, L zero M three Z. I have a publishing company passage dot press. 1.00

00:46:19.380 Um, that's at passage press on Twitter. We, you know, our goal for this publishing company is

00:46:24.820 kind of be the publisher of record for this new sort of moment that we're in. Um, Xeno systems,

00:46:31.140 Nick lands book that's available for sale as is this hat. Uh, you know, unqualified reservations,

00:46:36.660 Curtis Yarvin, Steve sailor. We got new books coming out from Paul Godfrey, uh, ride nationalists,

00:46:42.660 uh, John Derbyshire, um, all sorts of great stuff on the horizon. So go to passage

00:46:49.140 press, uh, buy the books, sign up for the newsletter. Um, yeah, I think that's, that's

00:46:54.180 everything for now. I like that. Oh, by the way, we have promo code, the blaze. Okay.

00:46:58.340 Promo code, the blaze 50, uh, I think it's free shipping, free shipping for the blaze.

00:47:03.460 There you go. I think, uh, you know, if you want to pick up Curtis Yarvin's new book,

00:47:06.580 you got that option there too. Uh, so you can, uh, get the free shipping on that.

00:47:10.420 That's right. Fascicles. Yep. Let's move over to our questions real quick.

00:47:14.900 Uh, Lord Sneed says, won't it be harder to remove lefties from institutions for spreading

00:47:21.140 anti-white, uh, hatred while keeping ELAS? I mean, they were never going to do it anyway.

00:47:28.180 I mean, I'll let you answer, but like the left was, it's not as if the right could assert control

00:47:34.500 over the left and say, well, we're going to remove our guy. So therefore you have to remove,

00:47:40.420 you know, that person who said that other thing, it's never worked like that. They were never

00:47:45.140 beholden to the preferences of the writer. And this goes back to this thing about like it being a

00:47:51.700 fair negotiation where each side is acting in good faith to congregate around some kind of shared

00:47:58.020 norms. That was never the case. So I would just say, don't worry about it. They were always going

00:48:03.060 to do whatever they wanted to do. We should still exert pressure where and how we can, but I don't see

00:48:08.740 this as a capitulation of our ability to, you know, get what we want, um, out of our own people.

00:48:17.780 Yeah. To, to mash up two passage, uh, authors here, uh, you know, Yarvin always points out that you

00:48:24.020 either can persuade people or you can do the anti-fascism crusade that Paul Godfrey talks about.

00:48:29.940 It's one or the other, right? You can, you can either try to purge everything or you can try to

00:48:35.380 persuade by making one thing socially cool and another thing, not those are your options.

00:48:39.860 Everything else is a failed half measure. You know, don't, don't do half the revolution,

00:48:43.700 either purge it all, uh, through a true like anti-fascist type, uh, crusade, or you got to

00:48:50.660 change it through the cool. It's one or the other. And so you're, you're either in the position of power

00:48:55.220 where you're just going to purge all the leftists, including all the people who used anti-weight

00:48:59.620 white rhetoric from all the institutions, or you're going to need to build the cultural

00:49:04.100 momentum to get that going. I think we're much more in the cultural momentum position at the moment.

00:49:08.660 And I think that's ultimately the healthier way to do it. Not to say that ultimately, you know,

00:49:13.060 you might not need to remove certain leftist elements from public discourse. If they are radical

00:49:18.740 enough, I don't think anyone should really be allowed to go around advocating, uh, for full scale,

00:49:23.140 like communist, uh, you know, race revolution. However, uh, at the moment we're definitely in the

00:49:28.660 cultural mode. And so I think that's where you need to be focusing when those battles take control

00:49:33.860 of your ability to dictate your terms, and then you can address these other issues.

00:49:39.460 Uh, Jeff here says New York times versus Sullivan needs to be reversed to make the media liable for

00:49:45.140 cancel culture slander. Do you think the expansion of libel laws would have any kind of positive impact?

00:49:51.060 You know, this is where I became a squish. Okay. Like I, I am unfortunately to your audience and maybe

00:49:57.460 a disappointment to you or, and I am kind of a free speech maximalist where this stuff is concerned.

00:50:02.180 I want these people to feel pain, but actually don't know if, you know, reversing or reconsidering

00:50:11.780 libel laws is the right way to do this. I have my doubts. I look at, for example, the UK,

00:50:19.780 which has much stricter laws against this sort of thing. And, you know, there was a recent case

00:50:25.060 amongst people we know there was this prominent case with Nina power and DC Miller and, uh, you know,

00:50:30.740 they were by any sort of meaningful, um, evaluation of, of the evidence innocent of the charges of like

00:50:39.220 Nazism essentially, which was what they were accused of. And it, according to UK law, that should have 0.99

00:50:45.300 been enough, but it wasn't because, you know, these decisions are made by judges who will ultimately make

00:50:52.820 determinations, um, that frankly, uh, don't match onto a common sense understanding of these terms,

00:51:00.420 but rather, you know, uh, adhere to their sort of preferred ideological interests. And in this case,

00:51:08.260 accusing all of us who have non leftist beliefs of being Nazis is just the way it's going to go. So

00:51:14.500 let me just say this. No, the, the solution I think is limiting the power of places like the Atlantic

00:51:20.420 or the New York times or the Huffington post who have called me a Nazi on multiple occasions,

00:51:24.580 a white nationalist Nazi, which has the intent, by the way, of just making it difficult for me to get

00:51:29.300 a job or to, to create reputational harm for me. The response is no, these, these things, we just

00:51:35.140 through cultural power need to limit these, the reach and significance, uh, of these outlets who engage

00:51:41.940 in this kind of behavior. Yeah. To be really clear, I'm not a libertarian at all, but when you don't

00:51:47.780 have total control over the regime, voluntarily changing the law so that the regime can flex on

00:51:54.340 you is a mistake. As you point out in Britain, yes, technically they have stronger liable laws,

00:51:58.660 but they only apply to the right. The left is immune to them, not because that's written in

00:52:02.580 the law somewhere, but you know, de facto, that is the case, whether it's de jure or not. And so we

00:52:08.180 really need to understand that until you are the one who is basically set like a generation of judges

00:52:14.180 into their, into their, uh, terms, you can't rely on them to rule in your favor. And so handing them

00:52:19.300 a weapon to bludgeon you is perhaps a mistake. Again, one of those scenarios where perhaps at some

00:52:24.260 point you have the cultural power to make those decisions, but you don't have it now. And so there's

00:52:28.020 no reason to really try to debate whether or not that's your move at the moment because you simply

00:52:32.740 don't have it either way. And by virtue of having that cultural power, let me just say, you then don't

00:52:38.100 need to change the law that becomes like a moot point. So, um, it really does just, it is just a

00:52:44.420 question of cultural power. That, that is my view on this. Yeah. Again, the law really becomes a

00:52:48.660 formalization of cultural power and perhaps an unnecessary or unproductive one, if you've done

00:52:54.340 things correctly. So ideally you don't need it, but even if you did need it now is not the time. So it's,

00:52:59.540 it's a poor tactical decision, whether it's ultimately principled or not.

00:53:03.300 Robert Weinsfeld says, if, if, uh, offensive jokes were, uh, uh, illegalized, the new Twitter,

00:53:10.180 uh, uh, awesome would be old Twitter, terrible, grow up, take a joke. Uh, how else are we supposed

00:53:16.340 to save Spider-Man? I mean, it's not just important that we can take a joke. I think actually humor is

00:53:24.420 an essential feature of who we are on the right currently. I mean, this is like where, where,

00:53:32.100 you know, roles have been reversed to some extent, but, um, you know, typically humor is

00:53:39.460 the provenance of the subaltern, the kind of like whatever group is in the weaker position,

00:53:46.340 sort of in a, in a, in a power analysis, because it's a way to sort of poke through the kinds of

00:53:53.140 platitudes and pieties of the sort of controlling regime. So it's not just that like, yes, humor is

00:53:59.860 obviously really good. I think on its own, it doesn't need any other justification beyond itself,

00:54:06.260 but it is a political tactic. And it is the case that like edgy jokes, I mean, just it's in the,

00:54:14.340 you know, it's in the description, they're edgy. They cut, they cut through the kind of

00:54:19.060 the hedge that otherwise might prevent us from being able to actually assert

00:54:24.100 our interest and get our ideas into the heads of, you know, uh, the public. And so this has been

00:54:30.980 our great advantage, by the way, on the online right for years, which is the left seated the ground

00:54:38.100 on humor. They just, they couldn't do it. I just don't think they have it in them to be funny anymore.

00:54:43.300 And so the right has used humor to its advantage and ought to continue doing so. And not, not to be

00:54:48.420 afraid. Okay. To be funny. It's still good to be funny, but context matters here. Context matters.

00:54:53.540 That's, that's what I'll say about that. 0.99

00:54:56.020 Tiny Stupid Demon says, uh, uh, that face, when you're doing a hundred miles an hour, 0.99

00:55:01.220 empty vodka bottle in your hand, stealing steering wheel out the window, 1.00

00:55:04.980 brick on the accelerator, and your opponent is not swerving.

00:55:08.180 Okay. This is a direct reference to Xeno systems. Nick lands essay chicken. You should all read it.

00:55:15.940 Very good. I have an episode on that one. So if people would like to, yeah, they can read it.

00:55:19.860 They can, they can look at the commentary. We, we got the whole, we got the whole package here.

00:55:23.220 Uh, perfect. All right. Uh, simpler says, uh, Trump needs to create tax incentives for corporations to 0.88

00:55:29.060 gut their anti white bias. Well, you know, interestingly, uh, something, you know, we've heard a lot

00:55:34.980 about colorblind, the, the, the regime being colorblind. Right. Uh, but Trump just came out

00:55:40.020 with an executive order talking about how we got to get rid of antisemitism. Now to his credit,

00:55:46.020 Chris Rufo came out and said, you know what, I've been pushing for colorblind. Uh, and this is not

00:55:50.340 colorblind. This is specifically, you know, singling out a group and saying they get special protection.

00:55:55.060 Now I think that there should generally be a freedom of association. I think people should be able

00:56:01.220 to form associations how they like, uh, and then we should be able to patronize them or not depending

00:56:06.580 on how they conduct themselves, you know? And so, uh, I think that's the way to handle that.

00:56:11.700 But if you're going to pass anti, you know, uh, Semitism executive orders, you can certainly pass 1.00

00:56:16.500 anti-white executive orders. And if you're going to do the first, then you should do the second. 0.94

00:56:20.580 If you're not going to do the second, then you shouldn't do the first. We should just have some

00:56:24.100 level of consistency when we're viewing this topic. Yeah. My own view on this, sorry. Cause I, you know,

00:56:29.460 is that carrots and sticks, uh, are just how you deploy them, uh, is, is a purely pragmatic

00:56:36.260 question based on what works and what doesn't work like providing tax incentives for anti-white bias

00:56:43.380 might work, but I don't know that that's the case. Um, if it did work, I mean, I guess. Okay. But, uh,

00:56:51.380 I don't think it's necessary. It's necessary. We just need to create sticks so that they don't

00:56:57.140 assert, uh, anti-white bias because by the way, they're already incentivized not to that sort of

00:57:02.100 natural dynamics of the market incentivize them not to have anti-white bias. Um, that's like an 0.99

00:57:07.940 important point here to make. Um, so the incentives are already there. It's just, they need sticks to

00:57:13.620 prevent them from making suboptimal decisions. Yeah. And just removing the artificial incentives

00:57:18.900 that were impressed on the market in the first place, which is part of what's happening now.

00:57:22.580 He also says, uh, Richard Harris's justice is a great book detailing how these problems were

00:57:27.540 created in the seventies. You can read it backwards as a step-by-step guide to demolishing it. Very

00:57:32.180 interesting. I haven't heard of that one, but, uh, I'll add it to my ever growing and never reducing

00:57:36.660 stack. Uh, let's see here. Matt Gertier says a huge fan of passage press. I must have bought a

00:57:42.820 dozen books from you all this past Christmas to give us gifts. Keep up the great work.

00:57:47.540 Thank you. Blast. Really appreciate it. Many, many excellent authors. They're

00:57:52.980 many friends of the show there. Definitely check it out. And Johan Richardson says,

00:57:56.660 seems like many of these problematic folks, journalists, bureaucrats, HR staff are women. 1.00

00:58:02.340 Wouldn't these gals be causing less trouble if they were home caring for their families instead? 1.00

00:58:09.140 I mean, you know, everybody in trouble. Look, it's an open question. I don't know. Uh,

00:58:15.540 uh, are they on average more likely to be women or not? I actually haven't looked at the data. I do

00:58:21.460 know in HR departments, it is the case. It's almost 70% women. Um, you know, I'm just going to say that 0.98

00:58:27.140 they should trust again. Okay. I will say on a serious note, all we have to do is remove the

00:58:32.980 artificial incentives that are imposed on people. And if we just allow people to behave, um, and sort of

00:58:41.220 follow what's in their best interest without the sort of ideological imposition of, uh, you know,

00:58:48.740 certain ideas, then we'll get the world we want to live in. Let's just put it that way.

00:58:54.260 I think you got, uh, you know, Steve sailor's next book there, you know, you can break down

00:58:57.780 stats, you know, get, turn Steve loose on this topic. I'm sure it'll be.

00:59:01.140 Yeah, maybe, maybe that's the answer guys. We're going to go ahead and wrap this up. Of course,

00:59:06.660 make sure that you are following Loma as you're checking out everything that passage press is

00:59:10.900 putting out. If it's your first time on this channel on YouTube, make sure that you're subscribing,

00:59:15.300 clicking the bell notification, all that stuff so that, you know, when these streams go live,

00:59:19.620 if you want to get these broadcasts as podcasts, you need to subscribe to the or Mac entire show

00:59:23.940 on your favorite podcast platform. And if you'd like to get my book, the total state

00:59:27.460 it's available in both print and audio book on Barnes and Noble or rather on Amazon at Barnes

00:59:34.020 Noble books, a million, and even your favorite local bookstore. Thank you everybody for watching.

00:59:38.100 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - February 10, 2025

JD Vance Destroys Cancel Culture ｜ Guest： Jonathan Keeperman ｜ 2⧸10⧸25

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