The Auron MacIntyre Show - LOTR： The Last Epic Before the Woke Revolution ｜ Guest： The Middle-earth Mixer

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.660 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.280 I've got a great stream with a great guest

00:00:34.920 that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.720 Most people can agree that the Lord of the Rings trilogy

00:00:40.520 was one of the best trilogies of movies of all time.

00:00:44.440 It's a classic.

00:00:45.240 It's the kind of thing that you throw on at Christmas.

00:00:47.620 You watch over and over again.

00:00:49.760 And I think it's really one of the last great epics

00:00:53.160 that came out before we got hit with the Woke Revolution.

00:00:57.180 Obviously, subsequent parts of that project

00:00:59.600 have been touched by that in different ways.

00:01:02.220 But this was kind of the last time we were able to truly translate

00:01:05.880 a timeless vision of the good and the beautiful and the true

00:01:10.020 into a popular medium that was really a blockbuster

00:01:13.740 that everyone connected to.

00:01:15.820 I wanted to talk a little bit about that

00:01:17.860 with somebody who's an authority on the Lord of the Rings.

00:01:21.240 So I brought on a great Twitter account.

00:01:24.000 He's also got his own podcast where he discussed Lord of the Rings.

00:01:28.320 Middle Earth Mixer.

00:01:29.160 Thanks for coming on, man.

00:01:30.800 Hey, thanks for having me on, bro.

00:01:32.200 I really, really appreciate it.

00:01:33.500 That was a great intro, by the way.

00:01:35.320 Big fan.

00:01:36.200 Fan of the show.

00:01:37.180 Fan of everything you guys do.

00:01:39.460 So I was happy to jump on today.

00:01:41.900 Well, I really love your account.

00:01:43.460 It's a good one.

00:01:44.320 And I wanted to pick your brain on this topic.

00:01:46.600 But before we get too deep into it,

00:01:49.220 for people who aren't familiar with you,

00:01:51.800 can you maybe give a little bit of background

00:01:53.500 on how you got into doing what you're doing now?

00:01:55.860 Maybe how you ran into Lord of the Rings?

00:01:57.820 You know, what that's kind of meant to you growing up?

00:01:59.700 That kind of thing?

00:02:00.780 Sure.

00:02:01.400 Yeah.

00:02:01.820 So, you know, I grew up loving the Lord of the Rings.

00:02:05.740 Obviously, it was a huge part of my childhood.

00:02:09.180 I was just captivated by it.

00:02:11.700 And then as I got older,

00:02:14.640 I kind of started to fall away from a lot of these things

00:02:18.220 that I really loved as a child.

00:02:19.940 You know, and I think that happens to a lot of us.

00:02:21.640 You start sort of playing this part of kind of what you think is cool

00:02:28.380 or what, you know, you're trying to impress other people.

00:02:31.480 So you're trying to create a version of yourself

00:02:34.020 that isn't necessarily you,

00:02:35.420 but it's what you think that the world wants you to be.

00:02:38.540 And, you know, after I became an adult

00:02:44.300 and I got married and, you know,

00:02:48.680 started thinking about my life

00:02:49.980 and taking my faith much more seriously,

00:02:52.000 at the same time,

00:02:53.440 that coincided with this falling back in love

00:02:57.020 with this deeper part of myself

00:02:58.900 that had been kind of lying dormant.

00:03:00.480 So I re-got back into, you know, Lord of the Rings

00:03:04.740 and really just did a deep dive.

00:03:08.760 And I was kind of on my mind all the time.

00:03:12.000 And I was on this hike with a good friend of mine

00:03:13.860 who he's a great, fantastic guy.

00:03:17.320 He edits a lot of people's podcasts.

00:03:18.500 And we were on a hike

00:03:20.420 and I was explaining to him how the Nazgul had come about.

00:03:24.420 And we were sitting there hiking and walking

00:03:26.640 and about like 20 minutes goes by

00:03:29.700 and he turns around and he looks at me and he goes,

00:03:31.300 you know, I would really listen to you

00:03:34.220 start a podcast on this.

00:03:35.920 And I'd listen to you talk about this.

00:03:37.760 And I was like, really?

00:03:39.360 And he was like, yeah.

00:03:40.060 And I, you know, kind of thought about it for a while.

00:03:41.840 And the rest of the hike, I was like,

00:03:42.980 maybe I could be like the Barstool podcast

00:03:46.480 of Lord of the Rings, you know,

00:03:47.980 like Lord of the Rings for the layman.

00:03:50.320 Because I feel like there's a lot of great

00:03:54.160 Lord of the Rings content out there.

00:03:56.480 And it's very scholarly heavy.

00:03:59.800 And that's great.

00:04:00.780 You know, I love that stuff.

00:04:02.440 But I always thought like, man,

00:04:04.260 if I was going to talk about Lord of the Rings online,

00:04:06.680 how can I talk about it in a way that,

00:04:08.820 you know, my boys would be able to appreciate

00:04:11.820 and listen to?

00:04:12.820 So that's kind of the way that I've approached

00:04:15.960 and taken it.

00:04:18.020 And, you know, one of the reasons

00:04:19.920 why I love Lord of the Rings so much

00:04:21.960 and what I like to share with people,

00:04:24.440 you know, not just Lord of the Rings,

00:04:25.560 but the Middle Earth Legendarium as a whole

00:04:27.660 is, you know, there's an essay

00:04:32.580 that Tolkien delivered.

00:04:35.120 It's called On Fairy Stories.

00:04:36.700 And if you haven't read it,

00:04:38.660 I highly recommend that you do.

00:04:41.200 It has really articulated my love for Tolkien

00:04:46.960 and my love for,

00:04:48.140 I'm not even really a big fantasy guy,

00:04:50.200 but my love for good storytelling

00:04:52.700 is he talks about the metaphor of the smudged window.

00:04:57.520 And he says how for a religious person,

00:05:00.260 not by the fault of God, right?

00:05:01.800 Because it's not God's fault

00:05:03.060 that we become bored with our faith

00:05:06.540 or our faith can become mundane.

00:05:08.360 That's on us.

00:05:09.420 That's us being distracted by vanity.

00:05:11.740 Fantasy done proper can help bring the beauty

00:05:17.640 of the ultimate truth back into the eyes

00:05:20.440 of the person of faith.

00:05:22.260 And I've felt that happen to me in my own life.

00:05:26.000 So, you know, it's kind of one of the reasons

00:05:28.140 why I get so excited to share it with other people

00:05:30.720 because I want them to experience that as well.

00:05:33.780 Yeah, again, I think it's something

00:05:35.260 that's going to go down as a timeless series

00:05:37.440 and one that it's embarrassing really

00:05:41.120 that so much of our modern culture

00:05:43.980 stands in opposition to the things

00:05:46.120 that are brought through in this,

00:05:48.160 that it feels the need to modify it.

00:05:50.420 And that a lot of people, you know,

00:05:52.380 are continually shocked to discover

00:05:54.100 that Tolkien was, you know,

00:05:56.040 not the progressive liberal

00:05:58.280 that they would like all of their book heroes to be.

00:06:01.480 So we'll get into all of that in just a second, guys.

00:06:03.700 But before we do,

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00:06:58.800 See you in theaters this Christmas season.

00:07:00.660 So the movies are really our main focus here.

00:07:06.140 We'll, of course, talk about the books as well.

00:07:07.880 You have to, you can't, you know,

00:07:08.880 they're inextricable, but the fact that this got translated

00:07:12.780 into something earnest and wholesome in Hollywood,

00:07:15.900 I think is, is almost seems miraculous at this point,

00:07:19.460 because I remember, you know, I'm older than you.

00:07:22.220 These movies came out when I was just heading to college.

00:07:26.040 And so these books were, you know,

00:07:28.260 I remember my dad's old paperback editions

00:07:31.020 of Lord of the Rings kind of sitting in a box.

00:07:34.600 And I picked them up, you know,

00:07:36.120 at like eight years old, nine years old,

00:07:37.800 and started reading, you know,

00:07:38.960 through and that kind of thing.

00:07:40.020 And I was captivated.

00:07:41.600 I was always more of a Chronicles of Narnia guy.

00:07:44.600 You know, I'm a little more of a C.S. Lewis guy

00:07:46.180 than I am a Tolkien guy.

00:07:47.220 But of course, I really enjoyed both worlds.

00:07:50.580 And this is something that I read multiple times.

00:07:52.720 I remember the cartoon was the only real media representation of this.

00:07:57.880 I don't know if you ever saw the original cartoon

00:08:00.060 that they had of those.

00:08:02.100 But the idea that something this grand

00:08:04.720 would be brought to the screen in this way was very strange.

00:08:09.080 We were still in this moment where geek culture,

00:08:11.920 as they call it, had not taken over the media.

00:08:15.420 And so the idea that this,

00:08:17.140 and I think grouping Lord of the Rings

00:08:19.220 into like Marvel movies is not a one-to-one there.

00:08:22.260 But you know what I'm saying.

00:08:23.380 These things were still considered very niche.

00:08:25.880 It was not something that had kind of a wide understanding.

00:08:28.620 And so the idea that all of these

00:08:30.180 would kind of be filmed back to back,

00:08:32.360 they released like one year after another.

00:08:34.760 They were all brought forward.

00:08:36.100 And that the movies were, you know,

00:08:38.400 of course it's not perfect.

00:08:39.500 There are many, you know, omissions in the movies,

00:08:42.460 that kind of thing.

00:08:43.220 But the fact that the spirit of what Tolkien was trying to tell

00:08:48.800 was really translated the way that it was

00:08:51.500 into giant blockbuster movies

00:08:53.680 that just kind of took over culture

00:08:55.460 at the time they were created

00:08:57.120 was I think something very special.

00:09:00.160 Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more.

00:09:02.100 I think the word miraculous you use there is very accurate.

00:09:06.120 I definitely believe like obviously Lord of the Rings isn't,

00:09:08.520 you know, it's not biblical.

00:09:10.580 It's not, but I believe that it's been blessed by God.

00:09:15.380 I truly do.

00:09:16.300 I think that the medium and the IP has definitely,

00:09:20.500 you know, because of the themes that they reflect

00:09:23.080 and because of what they make people want to aspire to

00:09:28.720 and the messaging, I think it's been blessed.

00:09:31.220 And I think that because the messaging is good,

00:09:36.080 I think that as long as you strive to portray it accurately,

00:09:40.460 which is what Peter Jackson did,

00:09:42.920 like it can't help but reflect quality.

00:09:46.600 And that's exactly what happened

00:09:48.000 because everyone really, truly was committed

00:09:51.940 to putting this on screen.

00:09:55.280 And because what they were truly committed

00:09:58.000 to putting on screen was good,

00:09:59.560 the movies were good.

00:10:01.620 It's interesting because I'm trying to,

00:10:03.620 I'm not a huge film guy,

00:10:05.740 so I can't like, you know,

00:10:07.160 I'm not the guy who's like,

00:10:08.040 oh yeah, the 19 different things he's directed.

00:10:10.620 Cinematography.

00:10:11.300 Yeah.

00:10:11.440 Right.

00:10:11.780 Yeah, exactly.

00:10:12.800 Like there are, you know, God bless them.

00:10:14.920 I have many friends who are-

00:10:15.920 I'm not like that either.

00:10:17.780 So if I apologize for those of you who tuned in

00:10:20.960 to hear me talk about, you know,

00:10:22.540 the angles and the filming locations,

00:10:24.260 like I'm not-

00:10:25.660 You're not going to nerd out on like lenses used

00:10:28.020 and everything.

00:10:28.440 Yeah.

00:10:29.640 Lighting, saturation,

00:10:31.220 but I don't, you know,

00:10:34.340 I don't remember.

00:10:35.080 I know Jackson did the, you know,

00:10:37.720 the King Kong movie after that,

00:10:40.680 but I don't think he did a lot of non-Lord of the Rings

00:10:43.700 related movies that were particularly large.

00:10:47.060 No.

00:10:47.320 I mean, the only, the only movie I recall his big one was,

00:10:52.880 it was like a horror movie.

00:10:54.100 It was like a blood splash slasher movie.

00:10:57.820 And that's what he was really into before he got this job.

00:11:03.160 So it's, it's interesting that he was picked and it's really surprising that he did such an amazing job.

00:11:11.160 It feels like one of those situations.

00:11:13.160 It's, it's kind of like Coppola where obviously like he made some timeless movies and is an acclaimed director,

00:11:19.400 but kind of lost it after, you know,

00:11:21.420 like there was never quite able to find a rhythm after making some of these classics.

00:11:25.900 And it feels like Jackson is, you know,

00:11:28.280 it's not a one-to-one,

00:11:29.300 but it's one of those situations where like you make three beautiful movies like this that are just masterpieces

00:11:35.220 and, and kind of translate something that is so atypical in Hollywood and then just kind of disappear.

00:11:41.240 It really does give it that, that miraculous quality,

00:11:43.360 like you were talking about,

00:11:44.140 like he was, he was blessed.

00:11:45.500 He was given a dispensation for just that moment.

00:11:48.540 And he, you know,

00:11:50.280 I think recently I think came out with a world war one documentary that was really good.

00:11:59.400 But, you know,

00:12:00.340 other than that and King Kong,

00:12:01.660 I'm not really,

00:12:02.520 you know,

00:12:02.900 I'm not really,

00:12:03.540 I want to do him justice.

00:12:04.660 Cause you know,

00:12:05.440 I do love him.

00:12:06.160 I don't want to,

00:12:07.040 I don't want to bag on his directing abilities,

00:12:09.940 but yeah,

00:12:10.520 I mean,

00:12:10.820 he's never topping that free.

00:12:13.020 It's just,

00:12:13.600 it's impossible.

00:12:14.400 They're,

00:12:15.120 they are the,

00:12:18.400 the highest point.

00:12:20.620 I think that,

00:12:22.380 that,

00:12:24.820 that fantasy medium will ever reach.

00:12:27.520 It's also very interesting because of course we've had,

00:12:30.620 I'd say,

00:12:31.080 you know,

00:12:31.240 like the Harry Potter movies would probably be like the younger generations version of this.

00:12:36.460 You know,

00:12:36.800 it's in the fantastical realm,

00:12:38.840 but it's,

00:12:39.620 it's not carrying the same way.

00:12:41.180 They're fine movies.

00:12:42.000 Like it's a story.

00:12:43.040 That's okay.

00:12:43.740 You can see why a young person would,

00:12:46.560 would enjoy it.

00:12:47.740 And it would have a certain legacy,

00:12:49.440 especially among kids,

00:12:50.720 but I don't,

00:12:51.720 it doesn't feel like it connects to the grand themes in the way that Lord of the Rings does.

00:12:56.160 It's not going to echo through a generation or beyond kind of getting that kind of,

00:13:00.720 kind of kids,

00:13:01.500 you know,

00:13:02.680 crowd at that time.

00:13:04.080 And so I wonder what do you feel sets this story apart from other modern formulations of the fantasy genre that,

00:13:14.600 that really helps it to transcend,

00:13:15.980 you know,

00:13:16.760 the,

00:13:17.360 it's not stuck in trying to be the super cool,

00:13:19.920 you know,

00:13:20.840 updated modern version.

00:13:23.380 It's not too goofy.

00:13:24.880 Like it,

00:13:25.440 it feels like it hits just the right spot on a number of areas.

00:13:29.920 Yeah.

00:13:30.120 I feel like that's a tough question to answer because there's so much you,

00:13:33.880 you have to unwrap.

00:13:34.840 There's not,

00:13:35.400 there's not one answer to that question.

00:13:37.040 It's like the universe was aligned for that,

00:13:40.740 for that one moment in time to create this amazing trilogy.

00:13:43.780 I mean,

00:13:44.240 there's,

00:13:44.700 there's so much stuff that goes into why it's better than everything today.

00:13:49.720 So much.

00:13:50.760 I mean,

00:13:51.240 just the fact Lord of the Rings itself is,

00:13:55.040 you know,

00:13:56.120 better than most content.

00:13:58.240 The story,

00:13:59.600 the messaging better than most content that comes out today.

00:14:03.580 So there's,

00:14:04.360 there's that,

00:14:05.140 but there's also the woke of vacation,

00:14:07.640 if you will,

00:14:08.220 of everything.

00:14:09.160 The fact that every product comes out that comes out is just like a,

00:14:13.400 a gray blob.

00:14:14.940 You know,

00:14:15.280 it follows a formula and it's sort of just a misshapen version of the thing

00:14:19.800 that came out the year before.

00:14:22.680 It's,

00:14:23.280 there's a lot of different reasons.

00:14:25.400 And I feel like it might be proper to maybe just dissect,

00:14:29.080 you know,

00:14:29.700 one thing at a time,

00:14:30.940 as opposed to just kind of like a general blanket statement for why I think,

00:14:38.000 I think,

00:14:38.580 you know,

00:14:38.900 first I will talk mechanically.

00:14:41.600 We'll like,

00:14:42.640 we'll,

00:14:43.500 I'll be a move.

00:14:44.280 I'll put my movie guy hat on for a second,

00:14:45.960 even though I'm not a movie guy at all whatsoever.

00:14:48.960 And I can't talk shop on any of that stuff.

00:14:51.480 I have friends who are really into that and I respect that and,

00:14:54.360 you know,

00:14:54.480 good for you guys,

00:14:55.220 but I'm not good at it,

00:14:56.960 but I do have my own theory.

00:14:58.280 Like as mechanically,

00:14:59.780 I think it kind of landed in the perfect time for a CGI versus practical.

00:15:05.900 And obviously there's spiritual and philosophical reasons that are really,

00:15:10.180 they're the most important,

00:15:11.240 but I want to cover this first because this is something that I do like to talk

00:15:14.300 about.

00:15:14.520 I think at that time,

00:15:17.460 CGI was good enough that something could look really good.

00:15:22.980 You know,

00:15:23.140 you have the witch King.

00:15:24.500 He's like,

00:15:25.040 this is my hour and pulls that thing out and it lights on fire.

00:15:29.980 And when you're a kid watching that and you're like,

00:15:31.880 this is the greatest thing I've ever seen.

00:15:34.820 So you have that.

00:15:36.140 You can,

00:15:36.340 you can create those moments that have huge payoff in the movie.

00:15:40.040 But for the most part,

00:15:41.620 even though it looked good,

00:15:42.680 it was still really expensive and you could only use so much of it.

00:15:47.500 And it was actually cheaper for a guy to,

00:15:50.240 you know,

00:15:51.120 sit and build something by hand,

00:15:53.000 no matter how long it took,

00:15:54.240 it's still kind of ended up being cheaper.

00:15:56.260 And that added a lot of life to those films.

00:16:00.080 So it was,

00:16:00.400 it was kind of the culmination of technology with practical effects that arrived at

00:16:06.360 just the right moment,

00:16:07.500 like between 1999 and like 2008,

00:16:11.260 that was like a sort of a golden age of film.

00:16:13.720 Cause you didn't have too much CGI,

00:16:15.240 but you had enough CGI that you could really have like an amazing scene with a

00:16:18.680 big payoff in a big moment.

00:16:21.920 And less CGI actually required,

00:16:24.440 you know,

00:16:24.740 better dialogue and more effort and,

00:16:27.260 you know,

00:16:28.380 regular scenes.

00:16:30.740 So there's,

00:16:31.680 there's that aspect aspect of it.

00:16:33.460 It arrives at just the right moment in time.

00:16:35.840 Um,

00:16:37.600 and,

00:16:38.240 you know,

00:16:39.140 another thing about Lord of the Rings,

00:16:40.720 that's,

00:16:41.260 that's insane.

00:16:41.840 Cause you,

00:16:42.320 you have like,

00:16:43.340 you have to provide for the practicality.

00:16:46.060 So you have to actually go to film locations.

00:16:48.960 They're going to over like a hundred different locations.

00:16:52.100 And some of these things that they actually have to hike to these certain

00:16:56.160 places.

00:16:57.060 Um,

00:16:57.780 you know,

00:16:58.200 in the fellowship,

00:16:58.840 especially there was a lot of those things that they had to do.

00:17:01.120 You know,

00:17:01.280 Mordor was essentially filmed up on the side of this,

00:17:04.360 this mountain.

00:17:05.580 Um,

00:17:06.340 and that creates this weathered look,

00:17:09.160 but it not only creates a weathered look,

00:17:11.020 but it's like the actors all had to do something to get to that point.

00:17:15.440 You know,

00:17:15.600 it was,

00:17:15.880 it was work.

00:17:16.760 It wasn't,

00:17:17.160 you just show up in an air conditioned studio and there's,

00:17:21.040 you know,

00:17:21.840 it's a tray of donuts and coffee or whatever.

00:17:24.460 And then you walk out and you do your scene and you walk back and you're

00:17:27.040 done.

00:17:27.320 It was like,

00:17:27.940 people really had to lay stuff out on the line to do this.

00:17:30.820 And I think that passion is reflected on screen.

00:17:35.540 It's,

00:17:35.780 it's really,

00:17:36.280 it creates a virtue that is not present in film today.

00:17:41.120 Um,

00:17:42.120 you know,

00:17:42.360 when you have to work hard to really,

00:17:44.220 really do well in that under that stressful environment.

00:17:47.040 So that's another thing.

00:17:48.340 So mechanical aside,

00:17:50.520 that's taking my,

00:17:51.440 movie guy hat off.

00:17:53.500 Um,

00:17:54.060 it's about the best I can do there.

00:17:55.840 And then there's,

00:17:57.100 sorry,

00:17:57.480 go ahead.

00:17:58.280 Oh,

00:17:58.440 no,

00:17:58.600 I just,

00:17:59.120 if you got a list of ones you're going through,

00:18:00.560 that's why I was just going to drill on some specifics.

00:18:02.980 Uh,

00:18:03.180 if you wanted to get into it,

00:18:04.360 please.

00:18:04.740 Yeah,

00:18:04.980 please.

00:18:05.780 Uh,

00:18:06.000 well,

00:18:06.360 one thing that I think about,

00:18:07.800 uh,

00:18:08.200 you know,

00:18:08.420 is we,

00:18:08.780 we hear a lot about how difficult it is to portray earnest and heroic characters

00:18:13.860 today,

00:18:14.460 right?

00:18:14.840 People are so jaded.

00:18:16.320 Everything has to be deeply ironic.

00:18:18.320 You know,

00:18:19.040 even Marvel movies,

00:18:20.160 of course,

00:18:20.780 are famous for their quips,

00:18:22.180 constantly,

00:18:22.780 uh,

00:18:23.480 interjecting a bunch of humor into every one of these,

00:18:26.440 you know,

00:18:27.340 uh,

00:18:27.560 theoretically serious situations.

00:18:29.420 And the reason we hear for like,

00:18:31.520 why you can't get a earnest Superman or,

00:18:35.180 or a captain America is like,

00:18:36.340 these are just old characters,

00:18:37.980 right?

00:18:38.240 They're old archetypes,

00:18:39.640 uh,

00:18:40.180 for,

00:18:40.500 for a less complicated audience.

00:18:42.180 And so there's just no way that you can do them justice.

00:18:46.200 And then I think of the Lord of the Rings characters and,

00:18:49.480 you know,

00:18:49.980 obviously there are characters with very complicated arcs,

00:18:54.300 right?

00:18:54.460 You've got Boromir,

00:18:55.320 you've got Aragorn.

00:18:56.040 These are heroic in ways,

00:18:57.900 but of course,

00:18:58.360 especially Boromir,

00:18:59.400 like this is a fallen man in many ways.

00:19:01.520 But it's also being redeemed,

00:19:03.240 you know,

00:19:03.480 like those are complicated characters,

00:19:05.400 but you also have hobbits who are genuinely just known for being good

00:19:10.340 natured,

00:19:11.020 you know,

00:19:11.340 living in the shower.

00:19:12.320 And of course they're going through their own complicated arc as well.

00:19:14.980 But I just look at these characters and I say,

00:19:17.360 okay,

00:19:17.580 no,

00:19:17.920 we can obviously show,

00:19:19.780 you know,

00:19:21.300 characters that are complex,

00:19:22.980 but also heroic and earnest.

00:19:25.080 And,

00:19:25.580 you know,

00:19:25.820 they don't have to constantly be kind of poisoned by modernity.

00:19:29.980 They don't have to constantly be,

00:19:31.380 trying to break down everything,

00:19:33.200 deconstruct everything,

00:19:34.320 make every situation unserious.

00:19:36.380 You know,

00:19:36.620 everything doesn't have to be bloody or sexual to be exciting.

00:19:40.060 Like these,

00:19:40.640 there are all these things that are,

00:19:42.400 you know,

00:19:42.540 used to be critical parts of storytelling that are brought into the Lord of the Rings that a lot of modern directors and writers say are just impossible to translate.

00:19:52.480 But here they are in the modern day and doing,

00:19:55.300 I think,

00:19:55.460 an amazing job much better than any of the slop we're getting today.

00:19:59.360 Well,

00:19:59.800 it's funny.

00:20:00.340 It's like they say,

00:20:01.380 you know,

00:20:01.560 for a modern,

00:20:02.480 simpler audience,

00:20:03.380 but the audience hasn't changed at all.

00:20:06.300 You know,

00:20:06.460 we're not,

00:20:06.920 we're not a simpler audience.

00:20:08.200 We actually,

00:20:09.060 I think that the problem with,

00:20:11.820 oh,

00:20:11.920 we can't,

00:20:12.420 we can't show these earnest heroic characters is actually,

00:20:15.160 it's,

00:20:15.460 it's,

00:20:15.920 it's not just that it's a rejection of truths.

00:20:19.580 It's a rejection of universal truths.

00:20:22.200 There are archetypes that are,

00:20:26.600 and,

00:20:27.200 you know,

00:20:27.420 this gets into the metaphysical a little bit.

00:20:29.280 Like,

00:20:29.400 I can't prove this to you,

00:20:30.500 but I think that there are things that are true to our collective learned history as a human race,

00:20:37.340 as far as archetypes and different people that you meet on the street that tell your brain,

00:20:44.220 this is a good person,

00:20:45.060 or this is a bad person,

00:20:46.620 red flag,

00:20:47.380 green flag.

00:20:49.160 And those archetypes are present in the stories that we tell and the lessons that we teach to one another.

00:20:57.020 And the traditional stories of what a bird is,

00:21:00.500 what a virtuous strong man looks like are no longer valuable to modern day studios.

00:21:06.980 And,

00:21:07.220 you know,

00:21:07.380 it's not just men.

00:21:08.260 It's,

00:21:08.420 it's,

00:21:08.840 you know,

00:21:09.620 it could be a virtuous strong woman or a virtuous strong,

00:21:13.100 you know,

00:21:13.600 displays of how nature should be properly working.

00:21:17.220 You know,

00:21:17.380 if you're going to do,

00:21:18.000 there's a Chronicles of Narnia movie coming out,

00:21:20.480 things like nature and harmony,

00:21:23.100 like this,

00:21:24.280 these are ideas that don't provide value to the kind of corporate blog,

00:21:30.500 bottom line.

00:21:31.980 They aren't the stories that they want to tell.

00:21:34.060 They're sick.

00:21:34.600 A lot of,

00:21:35.020 I mean,

00:21:35.300 a lot of the people in these writers rooms are sickened by these stories.

00:21:38.360 They are,

00:21:39.980 you know,

00:21:40.360 it's a lot like the journalism industry.

00:21:42.820 The cream is not rising to the top.

00:21:45.840 The,

00:21:46.300 it's the ideologues that are rising to prominence in a lot of these writers rooms.

00:21:51.340 And so the stories that we want to tell don't really have value to them.

00:21:57.820 And that's,

00:21:58.320 that's why they're not coming out.

00:22:01.620 I want to get into the depictions of masculinity with you.

00:22:04.880 Cause I think that's another big thing.

00:22:06.460 It's,

00:22:06.720 it's one of the last movies to truly give us that kind of heroic depiction.

00:22:11.020 I want to get into that in a second,

00:22:12.100 but before we do guys,

00:22:13.460 let me tell you about ISI.

00:22:15.280 Universities today aren't just neglecting real education.

00:22:18.020 They're actively undermining it and we can't let them get away with it.

00:22:21.200 America was made for an educated and engaged citizenry.

00:22:24.740 The intercollegiate studies Institute is here to help.

00:22:27.560 ISI offers programs and opportunities for conservative students across the country.

00:22:32.740 ISI understands that conservatives and right of center students feel isolated on college campuses

00:22:37.820 and that you're often fighting for your own reputation,

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00:22:41.280 and future.

00:22:42.700 Through ISI,

00:22:43.640 you can learn about what Russell Kirk called the permanent thing.

00:22:46.440 The philosophical and political teachings that shaped and made Western civilization great.

00:22:51.860 ISI offers many opportunities to jumpstart your career.

00:22:54.940 They have fellowships at some of the nation's top conservative publications like National Review,

00:22:59.280 the American Conservative,

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00:23:03.300 ISI offers funding opportunities to sponsor the next great generation of college professors.

00:23:08.020 Through ISI,

00:23:08.880 you can work with conservative thinkers who are making a difference.

00:23:11.920 Thinkers like Chris Ruffo,

00:23:13.220 who currently has an ISI researcher helping him with his book.

00:23:16.940 But perhaps most importantly,

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00:23:35.340 To learn more,

00:23:36.300 go to ISI.org.

00:23:38.040 That's ISI.org.

00:23:41.620 All right.

00:23:42.640 So masculinity,

00:23:44.080 like I said,

00:23:44.620 is obviously this is the watch word in,

00:23:47.720 you know,

00:23:47.920 kind of the modern day.

00:23:49.060 It's,

00:23:49.220 it's toxic.

00:23:50.120 You can't have stories centered on men.

00:23:53.180 You can't focus on what it means to have,

00:23:56.340 you know,

00:23:56.500 this kind of archetype,

00:23:57.800 archetypal,

00:23:58.840 virtuous hero.

00:24:00.720 And one of the things the Lord of the Rings does is unapologetically portray a number of kind of masculine traits that are no longer popular with kind of the modern zeitgeist.

00:24:14.600 And one of them I think is a masculine friendship,

00:24:18.920 right?

00:24:19.380 Obviously we have to now endure the like,

00:24:22.600 you know,

00:24:23.280 everything is,

00:24:24.680 is gay,

00:24:26.340 you know,

00:24:26.560 at this point.

00:24:27.200 And so Sam and Frodo have a thousand memes,

00:24:29.880 but at the time,

00:24:30.840 you know,

00:24:31.340 you were able to portray not just the Sam and Frodo relationship,

00:24:35.200 but many different male friendships and mentorships throughout this series.

00:24:40.800 And they were always earnest and they were always,

00:24:44.120 you know,

00:24:44.240 they were able to be open to each other.

00:24:45.860 They were able to encourage each other.

00:24:47.420 They were able to be close in a way that you would just not see in current media,

00:24:53.160 because if you ever portray that kind of brotherhood in current media,

00:24:58.020 then it's like,

00:24:59.080 oh,

00:24:59.240 but the characters could just be gay.

00:25:00.880 So let's make them gay.

00:25:01.780 And that's,

00:25:02.340 you know,

00:25:02.500 that,

00:25:02.740 that's the way we have to retroactively go back into this.

00:25:05.060 And that's kind of destroyed the ability to depict,

00:25:07.480 you know,

00:25:08.500 supportive male friendships in,

00:25:10.320 in any of these mediums,

00:25:12.640 because ultimately they're just going to be drug into this kind of vortex of,

00:25:16.940 we've got to rewrite everything to make it,

00:25:18.480 you know,

00:25:18.860 LGBTQ centered,

00:25:20.100 that kind of thing.

00:25:21.500 Yeah.

00:25:21.900 I couldn't agree more with you.

00:25:23.020 I think this has been huge for me.

00:25:25.400 I,

00:25:25.600 I've,

00:25:26.040 you know,

00:25:26.380 I like to talk about this a lot on Twitter.

00:25:28.040 I've probably tweeted about it so many times.

00:25:30.280 So I,

00:25:30.920 it's,

00:25:31.540 I haven't mentioned anything about it recently because it's like,

00:25:34.720 I'm beating a dead horse,

00:25:35.800 but this is the,

00:25:37.480 there is something so particularly malicious about this trend to try and

00:25:43.900 deconstruct male friendship,

00:25:46.420 relationship,

00:25:47.280 brotherly love.

00:25:48.300 It's,

00:25:48.960 I think it's a huge problem.

00:25:52.100 Not just,

00:25:53.180 not just for male friendship,

00:25:54.460 but also female friendship as well,

00:25:56.040 because the stories that we teach our children are extremely important,

00:25:58.940 right?

00:25:59.160 They,

00:25:59.440 they help build society.

00:26:01.660 They,

00:26:02.160 they also,

00:26:03.880 in a sense,

00:26:04.340 build in a child.

00:26:07.920 Like when you,

00:26:08.720 when you're watching Lord of the Rings,

00:26:10.000 you are subconsciously being told kind of what is,

00:26:14.540 what are themes that I should strive to as a person.

00:26:18.900 And I think that when,

00:26:21.260 and it's all,

00:26:22.300 it's in art,

00:26:23.020 right?

00:26:23.280 A lot of this stuff is directed at children,

00:26:25.520 you know,

00:26:25.740 these,

00:26:26.060 these kind of art pages that show like Sam and Frodo and some kind of

00:26:30.280 romantic relationship or something.

00:26:31.680 what's so pernicious about it is that you're teaching people that every

00:26:41.180 relationship where a person shows love,

00:26:44.540 kindness,

00:26:44.840 and care for another person is inherently transactional.

00:26:48.260 It can't be selfless.

00:26:50.260 It can't be selfless because that,

00:26:53.180 that doesn't exist.

00:26:54.220 There's always some kind of thing that the other person is getting out of the

00:26:58.060 relationship.

00:26:58.880 And I think that when you teach that to,

00:27:01.840 to a child,

00:27:02.460 that's a,

00:27:02.840 that's a very,

00:27:03.640 that's a malicious thing to do.

00:27:06.900 So you are essentially destroying their ability to,

00:27:10.020 to trust other people or,

00:27:12.280 or to trust,

00:27:13.300 you know,

00:27:15.720 aid,

00:27:16.300 help,

00:27:17.160 love from another person.

00:27:18.440 And it also teaches them the wrong approach and look at love because love

00:27:23.940 is not,

00:27:24.520 love is not inherently transactional.

00:27:26.860 You know,

00:27:27.520 love is patient.

00:27:29.780 Love is kind.

00:27:30.740 Love is long suffering.

00:27:31.960 Love is a service.

00:27:33.060 So when you make it all about,

00:27:37.600 you know,

00:27:37.900 it doesn't even have to be a sexual thing.

00:27:39.900 It can be just like a service or,

00:27:44.320 you know,

00:27:44.940 a selfish thing in general.

00:27:46.960 It's,

00:27:47.480 it's,

00:27:47.960 I think it's really,

00:27:51.020 it's satanic at the end of the day to,

00:27:53.260 to do that,

00:27:53.940 to,

00:27:54.240 to love.

00:27:55.760 And,

00:27:56.360 you know,

00:27:56.480 some people might describe that as me being dramatic,

00:27:59.180 but these things happen subtly,

00:28:01.320 right?

00:28:01.640 It's not,

00:28:02.140 it's not in your face.

00:28:03.560 They never say exactly what they're doing,

00:28:05.520 but that's where the spirit of it comes from.

00:28:08.040 Yeah.

00:28:08.560 And to really make arrows,

00:28:10.020 the only type of love is its own problem,

00:28:13.420 right?

00:28:13.680 Not that there isn't anything beautiful or important about that relationship,

00:28:17.840 but that brotherhood itself is its own beautiful thing.

00:28:21.820 And it's its own thing that is critical and central to the formation of a

00:28:28.060 civilization that,

00:28:29.120 that without that,

00:28:30.020 without,

00:28:30.100 that when you do not have men who can stand together and share,

00:28:34.860 you know,

00:28:35.820 a deep bonds together in a situation that doesn't have to be sexual,

00:28:39.780 when you don't have that understanding,

00:28:42.160 you don't know how things are forged.

00:28:44.460 You don't know how people resist evil.

00:28:47.140 And I think that's a big reason.

00:28:48.880 And we don't want those messages on the screen anymore today.

00:28:51.760 Right.

00:28:52.040 The idea that a band of men could forge together and,

00:28:56.300 and have deep bonds and associations that,

00:28:59.340 you know,

00:28:59.640 have nothing to do with any kind of,

00:29:01.540 you know,

00:29:01.980 sexual connotations for the purpose of driving back in an evil and put in,

00:29:06.620 and,

00:29:06.840 you know,

00:29:07.160 defending that which is theirs is something that is,

00:29:11.340 you know,

00:29:11.880 it doesn't,

00:29:13.040 the current regime does not want that to be something that people are thinking

00:29:16.540 about.

00:29:17.040 They,

00:29:17.480 you know,

00:29:17.660 there's a reason you're attacking fraternal organizations.

00:29:19.720 There's a reason you're attacking in kind of male spaces,

00:29:22.700 because you want to make sure that there's never a moment where men get

00:29:26.400 together and recognize that,

00:29:27.700 Oh,

00:29:28.200 well actually we can share these bonds.

00:29:30.440 We can share these communities.

00:29:31.840 We can define that.

00:29:33.000 We don't need the state to do this for us.

00:29:35.040 We don't need it to break us apart.

00:29:36.620 I don't think it's an accident that this has fallen out of favor is

00:29:39.760 something that should be depicted for people to understand.

00:29:42.740 Oh,

00:29:42.820 for sure.

00:29:43.340 That would be the second thing.

00:29:45.360 You know,

00:29:45.940 I would,

00:29:46.640 the second point I would make about that is that,

00:29:48.860 you know,

00:29:49.880 when you get rid of these fraternal organizations,

00:29:52.460 these local,

00:29:53.940 these local communities,

00:29:55.420 groups of men,

00:29:55.940 where people can find a lot of belonging.

00:29:59.160 One of the things that happens when men walk side by side with one

00:30:03.400 another is that they actually empower one another to,

00:30:06.760 to go to heights that they wouldn't have gone.

00:30:09.720 You know,

00:30:10.000 I think that the isolated man is the dejected man.

00:30:14.440 The isolated man is,

00:30:15.780 is someone who can be easily manipulated,

00:30:19.740 controlled.

00:30:21.840 It can,

00:30:22.860 it can be really easy to wear down that person when they don't,

00:30:25.940 don't have people alongside them,

00:30:27.840 building them up.

00:30:28.780 Right.

00:30:29.100 It's the reason why it's as simple as like,

00:30:31.800 when I go to the gym with my friend,

00:30:33.400 you know,

00:30:33.720 I'm much more likely to go harder because I'm trying to beat him,

00:30:37.400 you know,

00:30:37.600 but it's,

00:30:38.200 it's in like a friendly competitive kind of way.

00:30:40.360 And,

00:30:40.780 and that's fraternal organizations do that for a society.

00:30:44.820 Right.

00:30:45.360 They,

00:30:45.700 they,

00:30:45.900 they get you to go to a place that you probably wouldn't have gone before.

00:30:51.280 You know,

00:30:51.480 it's all part of this long.

00:30:55.220 And again,

00:30:55.720 these people aren't saying outright what they're doing.

00:30:58.160 It's all subtle,

00:30:58.700 but it's a long campaign to really just create,

00:31:03.620 as C.S.

00:31:04.020 Lewis said,

00:31:04.560 men without chests.

00:31:05.580 There's also the big aspect and guys,

00:31:09.720 I'm sorry that some of these are going to be the most basic takes in the

00:31:12.060 world.

00:31:12.380 No,

00:31:12.500 no new Lord of the Rings takes here today,

00:31:14.680 probably from me.

00:31:15.780 But I do think it's critical to just kind of understand,

00:31:18.700 you know,

00:31:19.940 the,

00:31:20.140 the themes that are being brought here and why they're,

00:31:22.740 they're not popular today.

00:31:23.840 But of course,

00:31:24.480 one of the huge things,

00:31:25.560 themes of Lord of the Rings,

00:31:26.700 you know,

00:31:26.920 Tolkien himself along with C.S.

00:31:28.960 Lewis was in world war one.

00:31:30.360 He knows what it means to be pulled out of kind of the shire and into

00:31:36.100 great battles.

00:31:37.820 And,

00:31:37.900 and that's of course a depiction,

00:31:40.620 I think for a lot of people today,

00:31:41.760 so many of conservatives or Republicans,

00:31:44.680 you know,

00:31:45.160 people who,

00:31:46.140 who are kind of anti-progressive,

00:31:47.660 anti-left wing,

00:31:48.420 they live in the shire.

00:31:49.620 Right.

00:31:49.880 And that's all they want to do.

00:31:50.860 That's the meme,

00:31:51.520 the grill meme,

00:31:52.200 right?

00:31:52.440 We're going to do this.

00:31:53.360 We're going to,

00:31:53.940 I just want to,

00:31:54.580 you know,

00:31:54.820 have the,

00:31:55.300 the suburban home and I want to grill.

00:31:57.140 You want to be a hobbit.

00:31:58.140 Right.

00:31:58.400 And there's nothing wrong with recognizing the beauty of that existence

00:32:03.380 too.

00:32:04.040 But the Lord of the Rings is,

00:32:05.900 is telling you the story of a number of hobbits who recognize that the

00:32:11.000 shire cannot exist without another type of man,

00:32:14.280 without another type of existence.

00:32:16.960 And,

00:32:17.580 and if you do not have those that are willing to go through this heroic

00:32:21.520 journey and stand on the wall and,

00:32:23.820 and venture everything,

00:32:25.380 then that beautiful existence will itself evaporate.

00:32:29.240 And they have to take that home with them when they go back.

00:32:31.320 And that's another message.

00:32:32.600 You don't want the average asleep guy in the middle of the country to

00:32:37.320 learn because they might say,

00:32:38.840 Oh,

00:32:39.140 well maybe the goal in life isn't just to be the hobbit,

00:32:43.200 or at least if I am only a hobbit,

00:32:45.820 then eventually the shire will burn down.

00:32:48.280 Eventually something terrible will come for it.

00:32:50.500 That that's another thing that they really don't want men learning.

00:32:53.000 Well,

00:32:54.180 yeah,

00:32:54.640 I couldn't agree more.

00:32:55.520 And what,

00:32:56.960 what the message that Tolkien actually drives down,

00:33:00.280 he makes a point to say this is,

00:33:02.660 you know,

00:33:02.960 a lot of people look at,

00:33:04.700 maybe they just watch the movies.

00:33:06.720 And they have this impression that the shire has sort of existed in this

00:33:09.840 isolated bubble and everything was okay there.

00:33:12.700 And it just happened to be that way,

00:33:14.860 but it's no accident that it is that way.

00:33:18.080 It's because the Rangers of the North hard men were actually defending the

00:33:25.260 shire without the hobbits even knowing about it.

00:33:28.140 You know,

00:33:28.340 they went on about their peaceful life,

00:33:31.200 enjoying the fruits of their labor and their lands and their tobacco.

00:33:36.400 And these men were essentially watchers on the wall,

00:33:39.800 you know,

00:33:40.160 keeping this little area safe that they felt was worth keeping safe.

00:33:44.720 We hope you're enjoying your air Canada flight.

00:33:48.000 Rocky's vacation.

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00:33:51.340 Is this economy free beer,

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00:34:00.400 And with live TV,

00:34:01.680 I'm not missing the game.

00:34:03.200 It's kind of like I'm already on vacation.

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00:34:13.960 applies to your Canada.com.

00:34:16.120 Absolutely.

00:34:17.120 And,

00:34:17.420 and,

00:34:17.540 and I think the complexity of some of the,

00:34:21.400 again,

00:34:22.220 you know,

00:34:22.480 just staying on the,

00:34:23.300 on the,

00:34:23.700 the masculinity depiction for a second,

00:34:26.080 the complexity of some of the male characters,

00:34:28.620 again,

00:34:29.060 is fascinating.

00:34:30.380 Of course,

00:34:31.200 you've got,

00:34:31.960 you've got Aragorn,

00:34:35.360 which is kind of your,

00:34:36.180 your central heroic figure,

00:34:37.620 but I've always found Boromir to be particularly fascinating.

00:34:42.340 My wife and I were having this discussion earlier today where,

00:34:45.980 you know,

00:34:46.580 when you're young and you see Boromir,

00:34:49.200 you,

00:34:49.360 you see him almost as a villain,

00:34:50.680 right?

00:34:51.180 Because,

00:34:51.760 you know,

00:34:52.200 he's after the ring and he betrays the fellowship and,

00:34:54.920 and he's got these scary moments,

00:34:57.020 but as you get older,

00:34:58.800 you come to understand,

00:35:00.500 you know,

00:35:00.680 because it's kind of confusing when you're a kid,

00:35:02.960 you know,

00:35:03.200 the people are,

00:35:03.880 are mourning his death,

00:35:05.140 even after what he's done,

00:35:06.600 you know,

00:35:06.820 in these moments and you don't recognize why,

00:35:11.320 and then you become older and you,

00:35:12.940 you see the struggle that he was dealing with,

00:35:15.560 what he was representing and why it's so easy for him to fall to those

00:35:20.800 temptations,

00:35:21.420 but you know how he ultimately redeems himself.

00:35:24.360 And that's what people honor and respect those again,

00:35:27.700 are,

00:35:28.040 are,

00:35:28.340 this is supposed to be just too juvenile.

00:35:30.640 And,

00:35:31.160 you know,

00:35:31.720 it's a story that,

00:35:32.700 that modern audiences just won't pay attention to,

00:35:34.840 but there is this beautiful,

00:35:36.820 just encapsulated,

00:35:38.200 you know,

00:35:38.820 arc of humanity and,

00:35:40.880 and kind of a very understandable male flaw,

00:35:43.880 particularly male flaw that then gets redeemed through a male virtue that

00:35:48.500 you just wouldn't see today.

00:35:50.160 I think in most films,

00:35:51.360 you,

00:35:52.720 you honestly hit the nail on the head.

00:35:55.000 I feel like if I was to add to that at all,

00:35:57.320 I would take away from that brilliant way that you just described it.

00:36:00.140 I think that,

00:36:00.760 you know,

00:36:01.020 we are,

00:36:01.620 we are Baromir.

00:36:02.660 He's literally me,

00:36:03.900 you know,

00:36:04.140 like you,

00:36:04.860 you,

00:36:05.240 to,

00:36:06.600 to portray yourself and then to come back to the light is a story that

00:36:12.820 resonates with all of us.

00:36:14.220 And that's how Baromir went out.

00:36:16.180 I think,

00:36:17.280 you know,

00:36:18.140 how I could kind of build on what you just said is in the same way that,

00:36:22.180 that,

00:36:22.720 sort of took place with Baromir is,

00:36:25.380 you know,

00:36:26.100 you look at Aragorn,

00:36:26.960 you mentioned Aragorn.

00:36:27.860 And when you're a kid,

00:36:28.820 you look at Aragorn,

00:36:29.520 you're like,

00:36:29.820 that's the guy,

00:36:30.820 you know?

00:36:31.980 But Aragorn is really supposed to be the ideal.

00:36:34.440 You know,

00:36:34.600 we actually find ourselves connecting with more Baromir,

00:36:37.360 like you said.

00:36:38.120 And then I think the dynamic between,

00:36:41.220 you know,

00:36:41.960 a lot of people don't really talk about this much,

00:36:44.760 but one of the things I love is the dynamic between Thaedon and Denethor.

00:36:48.740 Right.

00:36:49.760 So those in the movies,

00:36:52.340 Denethor is this like repugnant person that you can't stand.

00:36:55.900 But in the books,

00:36:56.900 he's much more of a tragic and sympathetic character that you,

00:37:00.100 that you,

00:37:00.640 you,

00:37:02.360 you weep for.

00:37:03.240 And Thaedon and Denethor are essentially meant to be these sort of foils of

00:37:09.120 one another of how the two ways that men can respond in desperate times.

00:37:17.280 You know,

00:37:17.520 Denethor really reaches out into the darkness with good intentions of,

00:37:23.200 of trying to defend his people and ends up losing his,

00:37:27.000 his mind due to the despair.

00:37:28.820 And it's,

00:37:29.200 it's because he was using the Palantir.

00:37:32.760 Sauron had one and Sauron was essentially communing with his mind and giving him

00:37:37.120 these visions of death and destruction that ultimately caused him to despair and,

00:37:42.200 and go crazy.

00:37:43.620 Whereas Thaedon,

00:37:44.780 who in the same way his mind was poisoned was able to come back.

00:37:48.860 And not only did he come back,

00:37:50.420 but he,

00:37:51.820 he came back with such redemptive fashion,

00:37:55.420 you know,

00:37:55.580 in the book in the movie we see in the extended edition,

00:38:00.600 Saruman says to Thaedon,

00:38:02.660 you are a lesser son of greater sires.

00:38:05.740 But in the books,

00:38:07.100 Thaedon actually calls himself that.

00:38:10.340 So we see that Thaedon is really,

00:38:12.380 he's,

00:38:12.700 he's coming out of this poison mine infection and he's already insecure about his

00:38:18.620 own legacy because he knows that he has done nothing compared to those who have

00:38:22.260 come before him.

00:38:23.000 And in fact,

00:38:23.940 he's actually failed.

00:38:27.840 But,

00:38:28.500 you know,

00:38:29.760 he,

00:38:30.160 he comes back and finds glory on the battlefield,

00:38:33.440 like,

00:38:34.280 and fully redeems himself.

00:38:37.620 And he does that at like,

00:38:39.740 you know,

00:38:40.060 I believe he's 71 years old.

00:38:42.240 If I,

00:38:43.220 memories,

00:38:43.740 it's off the top of my head.

00:38:46.120 He does that at 71 years old.

00:38:47.820 So it's like,

00:38:48.360 it's never too late for redemption.

00:38:51.100 So his story and Denador's story is really expounding upon Boromir.

00:38:58.020 It's like,

00:38:58.360 how are these men who you connect with as the re as a man,

00:39:04.440 you know,

00:39:04.700 as like a,

00:39:05.380 a weathered man who has,

00:39:07.360 you know,

00:39:07.560 seen some things in life.

00:39:08.680 You're supposed to connect with these guys and see how these men are

00:39:11.440 responding.

00:39:11.980 And how should you respond to the things that you're facing in your life?

00:39:15.420 And it's been a little while since I've seen return of the king.

00:39:19.540 So,

00:39:19.760 but I think I'm remembering correctly.

00:39:21.680 He,

00:39:22.000 and it has that moment where he's coming out of everything.

00:39:24.360 And it's like,

00:39:24.720 what do I do?

00:39:25.640 Right.

00:39:25.860 I've been emasculated.

00:39:26.720 I've been depressed.

00:39:28.040 What do I do?

00:39:28.420 And the sword is placed in this hand.

00:39:30.220 Right.

00:39:30.640 And this is like,

00:39:32.020 Oh yes,

00:39:32.640 this is what I am.

00:39:34.360 This is the king.

00:39:35.040 This is the king.

00:39:35.760 This is how action is taken.

00:39:37.300 You know,

00:39:37.820 it just,

00:39:38.060 just a very simple,

00:39:39.540 you know,

00:39:40.340 act,

00:39:40.820 but something that I think really conveys the moment in which he kind of

00:39:45.420 is reminded of his duty and reminded how he can take that action and

00:39:49.920 change things.

00:39:50.960 Again,

00:39:51.580 just,

00:39:51.920 just these moments that are not,

00:39:55.560 nobody needed to wink in that moment.

00:39:57.900 No one needs to crack a joke.

00:39:59.280 No one needs to,

00:40:00.000 Oh,

00:40:00.300 you know,

00:40:00.760 you know,

00:40:01.320 Thor being like,

00:40:02.160 Hey,

00:40:02.380 he's back.

00:40:03.080 You know,

00:40:03.880 like there's,

00:40:04.340 there's not that,

00:40:05.100 you know,

00:40:05.380 the nobility is,

00:40:06.600 is conveyed in a very earnest manner,

00:40:09.080 but,

00:40:09.620 but,

00:40:09.940 but something that arouses the spirit and doesn't,

00:40:13.080 again,

00:40:13.660 doesn't feel the need to break the serious tension or the,

00:40:16.260 uh,

00:40:16.740 can,

00:40:17.100 you know,

00:40:17.340 convey some kind of like,

00:40:18.420 Oh,

00:40:18.640 but we're all weekend.

00:40:19.440 We're no,

00:40:19.660 one's really serious about there's no,

00:40:21.400 there's no part where,

00:40:22.460 you know,

00:40:23.000 like Aragorn looks at the camera and goes,

00:40:25.540 well,

00:40:25.640 that was awkward.

00:40:26.480 You know,

00:40:26.900 like it's just,

00:40:28.240 which is what our slop is filled with today.

00:40:31.120 Right.

00:40:32.080 So,

00:40:32.520 so,

00:40:32.580 um,

00:40:33.200 I have not seen any of the rings of power stuff.

00:40:37.020 We were talking about this a little before we got started today.

00:40:39.400 As soon as I saw,

00:40:41.040 you know,

00:40:41.560 and I don't know how much of this made on the screen.

00:40:43.600 Cause I just never watch it.

00:40:44.640 But when I,

00:40:45.100 we first got announced,

00:40:45.960 it was a bunch of like,

00:40:46.980 this one's going to be diverse and it's going to have representation and

00:40:50.220 it's going to,

00:40:50.920 you know,

00:40:51.160 maybe we'll get some nudity in there.

00:40:52.660 So,

00:40:52.920 you know,

00:40:53.080 we're,

00:40:53.280 it's,

00:40:53.480 it's going to be,

00:40:54.200 uh,

00:40:54.800 you know,

00:40:55.140 a game of Thrones,

00:40:56.620 but,

00:40:57.060 but with Lord of the Rings characters.

00:40:58.820 And so I was just immediately,

00:41:00.300 uh,

00:41:00.980 kind of pushed off of it.

00:41:02.140 But,

00:41:02.440 uh,

00:41:03.360 other than,

00:41:04.160 uh,

00:41:04.380 the fact that elves are now,

00:41:05.940 uh,

00:41:06.260 a rather multiracial,

00:41:07.820 uh,

00:41:09.020 grouping of people,

00:41:09.840 how did you feel about the,

00:41:11.700 that I don't think ultimately anything can besmirch the legacy of this,

00:41:16.400 uh,

00:41:17.300 film trilogy,

00:41:17.960 or of course the core books,

00:41:19.680 because I think they stand apart and timeless,

00:41:22.520 but how do you feel like the show handled this?

00:41:26.140 And do you think ultimately it's a,

00:41:27.700 a failure rejection of what Tolkien was trying to communicate,

00:41:31.400 or do you think it's just flawed in certain ways?

00:41:34.180 Yeah.

00:41:34.400 Yeah.

00:41:34.600 And this will,

00:41:35.240 uh,

00:41:35.440 this will get people riled up.

00:41:36.900 My mentions will be filled later with people who are mad at me.

00:41:40.540 Um,

00:41:40.920 so I'll,

00:41:42.280 I'll keep it brief.

00:41:43.140 Cause this,

00:41:43.980 this gets kind of dramatic.

00:41:45.720 Um,

00:41:46.580 so the show with the lore is a mess.

00:41:49.860 Uh,

00:41:50.300 it's all over the place.

00:41:51.620 It's really infuriating as you watch it.

00:41:55.020 Uh,

00:41:55.520 they're making lore changes that are so,

00:41:59.480 uh,

00:41:59.860 it's one thing,

00:42:00.680 like if you watch the Lord of the Rings trilogy,

00:42:02.920 which isn't a great example,

00:42:04.520 but you know,

00:42:05.380 I'll just use that as an example.

00:42:06.600 And you see like a lore change and you're like,

00:42:08.740 Oh,

00:42:08.940 okay,

00:42:09.160 well I see why that was made.

00:42:11.720 It,

00:42:11.900 it adds to the plot.

00:42:13.920 Um,

00:42:14.360 but there's stuff like for some reason I was so annoyed by the,

00:42:18.720 um,

00:42:19.500 the,

00:42:20.260 uh,

00:42:20.620 Barrow Downs sequence.

00:42:22.720 And I know you didn't watch it,

00:42:24.080 but for those of you who did,

00:42:25.320 it really,

00:42:25.900 really bothered me because I just was like,

00:42:28.740 this was not only is this insane and insane lore change,

00:42:32.140 but it's not even necessary.

00:42:34.180 Like they could have been facing like a troll or some kind of,

00:42:37.680 I don't know.

00:42:39.260 They could have done literally anything else,

00:42:40.980 but it's,

00:42:42.020 it's so it's full of that.

00:42:43.260 And then the,

00:42:44.160 um,

00:42:45.000 the Elrond Gladriel kiss is awful.

00:42:47.200 Sorry.

00:42:47.640 I'm,

00:42:47.800 I'm,

00:42:48.000 I'm venturing off now.

00:42:49.280 I'll try to stay on.

00:42:50.240 I think I went into the show knowing in my head,

00:42:54.560 like I had made peace with it before I had watched the first episode of

00:42:58.120 season one.

00:42:59.300 I knew that the lore was going to be a mess.

00:43:02.160 I knew that they would not do it.

00:43:04.700 I knew that they would make changes.

00:43:06.940 Um,

00:43:07.300 so I had kind of expected that,

00:43:09.440 but one of the things,

00:43:10.900 I was expecting was this sort of deconstruction of token of the themes of,

00:43:17.800 you know,

00:43:18.540 light and darkness.

00:43:19.900 Um,

00:43:20.420 I really thought that that was going to be chopped up and I have been

00:43:26.000 pleasantly surprised.

00:43:27.200 I think that there's been a lot of really great,

00:43:29.480 you know,

00:43:29.760 it's the acting has been kind of whack in some areas,

00:43:33.420 but,

00:43:33.760 um,

00:43:34.820 there have been some lines where I've heard it and I've been like,

00:43:37.740 wow,

00:43:37.900 I can't,

00:43:38.480 I can't believe this is coming out of a modern studio.

00:43:41.740 Uh,

00:43:42.140 I,

00:43:42.540 I appreciate that they're doing that.

00:43:44.340 And,

00:43:44.880 you know,

00:43:45.860 one of the things that I want to do,

00:43:47.700 and I differ from a lot of the burn it down folks,

00:43:51.300 you know,

00:43:51.660 everybody wants it all burned down.

00:43:53.120 And to some extent it does deserve that.

00:43:55.900 Um,

00:43:56.860 Hollywood in general,

00:43:58.140 you know,

00:43:58.460 not,

00:43:58.740 not just the rings of power,

00:43:59.760 but you know,

00:44:00.960 I do like to say when I like something or say when I think something's

00:44:05.060 good,

00:44:05.300 because in my mind,

00:44:06.180 I'm like,

00:44:06.580 all right,

00:44:06.780 well,

00:44:07.080 if somebody doesn't say,

00:44:08.360 Hey,

00:44:08.480 this is good,

00:44:09.160 do this again and provide some kind of positive reinforcement,

00:44:11.600 then it's,

00:44:12.300 it's not going to happen.

00:44:13.580 So I,

00:44:14.080 I did appreciate like off the top of my head,

00:44:16.540 um,

00:44:17.760 the,

00:44:18.260 the speech that Keller Brimboar gives about,

00:44:21.100 he's basically taking ownership for,

00:44:23.220 for what happened throughout season two.

00:44:25.040 And,

00:44:25.680 um,

00:44:26.360 you know,

00:44:26.540 it talks about the light and the darkness.

00:44:28.220 Uh,

00:44:28.720 it's,

00:44:29.400 it was really well,

00:44:30.640 it was well delivered.

00:44:31.460 And I liked how it was written because the show has more alluded to

00:44:37.940 these ideas of transcendent truth and divine providence that I really

00:44:41.940 didn't think it was going to do.

00:44:43.560 So I will say that I've liked that about the show.

00:44:46.980 It's,

00:44:47.260 that's been my one,

00:44:48.100 you know,

00:44:48.420 pleasant surprise.

00:44:49.940 Yeah,

00:44:50.380 I appreciate that.

00:44:51.160 I know,

00:44:51.580 you know,

00:44:51.840 the,

00:44:52.020 the more popular thing is to just do the,

00:44:54.220 uh,

00:44:54.680 you know,

00:44:54.920 the rip like,

00:44:55.620 Oh,

00:44:55.760 it's gone woke and it's all trash.

00:44:57.460 And there's,

00:44:58.120 there's no redeeming.

00:44:59.060 And it's,

00:44:59.340 you know,

00:44:59.500 that just doing a bunch of reactions like that,

00:45:01.760 but it is true.

00:45:03.480 That's the bills.

00:45:04.440 Right.

00:45:04.860 Oh yeah.

00:45:05.300 I know it's the content mail mill is real,

00:45:07.680 but,

00:45:08.100 uh,

00:45:08.840 uh,

00:45:09.280 but,

00:45:09.740 but it is good to,

00:45:10.720 to,

00:45:11.360 like you said,

00:45:12.380 single out the things that work and the things that should be

00:45:14.900 reinforced and do carry at least some honest level of the

00:45:18.240 themes forward,

00:45:18.960 because otherwise there's no feedback and they're like,

00:45:22.120 Oh,

00:45:22.240 well,

00:45:22.380 who are we making this for?

00:45:23.520 And they just continue to kind of,

00:45:24.680 pile their ideology.

00:45:26.040 And instead of being like,

00:45:27.020 Oh,

00:45:27.180 well,

00:45:27.360 no,

00:45:27.520 if we go down this road,

00:45:28.580 there are,

00:45:29.100 there's an audience for this.

00:45:30.400 There are people who recognize that this is good.

00:45:32.880 I wonder how you feel about the Hobbit movies too,

00:45:35.580 because I feel like they're in a scenario where,

00:45:39.180 uh,

00:45:39.520 it's like the star Wars prequels when they first came out,

00:45:42.620 uh,

00:45:43.060 you know,

00:45:43.340 the,

00:45:43.620 the long time fans were not huge on them,

00:45:46.620 uh,

00:45:47.220 because you know,

00:45:48.040 they,

00:45:48.220 they weren't as good as the originals,

00:45:49.680 but in light of all of the content that has come out afterwards,

00:45:53.460 that star Wars related,

00:45:54.800 they start to look like masterpieces.

00:45:56.680 Yeah.

00:45:57.020 And I feel like the same thing's kind of true of the Hobbit.

00:45:59.640 My problem with the Hobbit movies was simply just,

00:46:02.300 they were obviously stretched out artificially.

00:46:04.600 Yeah.

00:46:05.000 It's a story that could have been scraped over too much bread.

00:46:08.260 Exactly.

00:46:08.740 Right.

00:46:09.040 It,

00:46:09.460 that like the themes weren't offensive.

00:46:11.240 It wasn't a bunch of,

00:46:12.640 uh,

00:46:13.180 modern audience stuff.

00:46:14.480 It wasn't,

00:46:15.040 you know,

00:46:15.200 it didn't feel like it was betraying the spirit of the story.

00:46:18.680 I feel like somewhere,

00:46:20.840 you know,

00:46:21.340 that there's a,

00:46:22.500 um,

00:46:22.960 you know,

00:46:23.540 uh,

00:46:23.880 a cut of these movies that,

00:46:25.780 you know,

00:46:25.940 you,

00:46:26.160 you trim an hour out total somewhere and we get just a,

00:46:29.540 uh,

00:46:29.760 another masterpiece possibly.

00:46:31.540 Well,

00:46:31.860 there is there's,

00:46:32.680 so there's a,

00:46:33.280 uh,

00:46:33.560 there's a fan made cut that basically just puts together everything

00:46:37.420 that's,

00:46:38.120 uh,

00:46:38.780 actual lore and then cuts out everything else.

00:46:41.580 Um,

00:46:42.500 and it,

00:46:43.040 you know,

00:46:43.260 I really,

00:46:44.040 I think,

00:46:44.520 I think the Hobbits,

00:46:45.960 the,

00:46:46.480 they're,

00:46:46.700 they're,

00:46:47.120 they're fun.

00:46:47.880 You know,

00:46:48.300 they're,

00:46:49.300 I,

00:46:49.780 I was just talking the other day about,

00:46:52.480 uh,

00:46:52.880 this insane,

00:46:54.320 the insane decision to talk about how the,

00:46:56.880 uh,

00:46:57.180 the witch King was killed by the men of the North.

00:46:59.340 And then he was buried in like this birdie.

00:47:01.540 Real mound that was made to be like a prison.

00:47:04.340 Uh,

00:47:04.680 that's,

00:47:05.160 that's like an insane thing to do because you're,

00:47:08.160 you're ruining the timeline.

00:47:10.800 Like that doesn't even make any sense to the timeline.

00:47:13.180 So I don't,

00:47:14.240 I don't know why decisions like that were made.

00:47:15.740 Um,

00:47:16.280 but yeah,

00:47:16.840 there's,

00:47:17.220 there's some pretty bad lore stuff in the Hobbit,

00:47:20.860 but you know,

00:47:21.560 I do have sort of this,

00:47:22.840 like just love,

00:47:24.860 hate relationship with them.

00:47:26.100 They're,

00:47:26.640 they're cozy.

00:47:27.500 They're fun.

00:47:28.300 You know,

00:47:28.620 it's,

00:47:28.940 they're good kids movies.

00:47:30.540 Um,

00:47:31.040 you know,

00:47:31.280 like,

00:47:31.660 I feel like the Hobbit is essentially a kid's book.

00:47:36.120 Right.

00:47:36.320 Right.

00:47:36.640 That's the other thing I was going to say.

00:47:37.960 You are working with literally kids material.

00:47:40.720 Exactly.

00:47:41.320 And the,

00:47:42.320 the movie captures that spirit.

00:47:44.320 So that,

00:47:45.120 that is what I like about them.

00:47:47.000 Uh,

00:47:47.360 and I will watch them every,

00:47:48.940 every now and again,

00:47:49.660 I think that they're fun and there's,

00:47:51.040 there's gold in them.

00:47:52.080 Like there's certain parts.

00:47:53.520 I mean,

00:47:53.800 like Bilbo's,

00:47:54.740 uh,

00:47:55.280 conversation with a smog is,

00:47:57.880 is great.

00:47:58.920 I feel like it was done masterfully.

00:48:01.640 Um,

00:48:02.180 so I do,

00:48:03.880 I do like that about them.

00:48:05.860 Yeah.

00:48:06.420 I,

00:48:06.700 I think they're again,

00:48:07.860 not,

00:48:08.480 not to do the star Wars stuff too much,

00:48:10.500 but there is a parallel there where your George Lucas was saying,

00:48:13.780 no,

00:48:13.980 I always meant these movies to be for kids.

00:48:15.720 And so when I went back into the prequels,

00:48:17.160 I really leaned into the kid stuff and all the adult fans hated it.

00:48:20.380 And you know,

00:48:20.980 there could be a level of that with the Lord of the rings where it's like,

00:48:23.500 okay,

00:48:23.720 no,

00:48:23.900 this was specifically the kid's book.

00:48:26.020 And now you're like,

00:48:26.920 well,

00:48:27.020 why isn't this just like the,

00:48:29.060 uh,

00:48:29.280 you know,

00:48:29.440 the more mature book,

00:48:30.460 you know,

00:48:30.760 the,

00:48:30.980 why,

00:48:31.120 why isn't it exactly the same depth?

00:48:32.600 And it's like,

00:48:32.880 well,

00:48:33.360 the audience is specifically different.

00:48:34.840 So try not to get too butthurt about it.

00:48:37.160 Yeah.

00:48:37.720 And you know,

00:48:38.360 uh,

00:48:38.800 another thing about those is I think I,

00:48:42.740 those are really interesting movies because it's as far as like,

00:48:46.940 you know,

00:48:47.360 the discussion about woke and you know,

00:48:49.620 what makes stuff good.

00:48:50.520 I think those came in like,

00:48:53.180 right,

00:48:53.780 like right when slop started to happen,

00:48:56.820 you know what I'm saying?

00:48:57.400 Like Marvel slop.

00:48:58.580 that's like right when that started to emerge,

00:49:03.100 but woke hadn't really.

00:49:05.320 And I,

00:49:06.100 you know,

00:49:06.480 I almost hate the term woke because it's like,

00:49:09.040 what are you really saying?

00:49:10.040 You know,

00:49:10.240 people use it to describe so many different things,

00:49:12.020 but really this sort of very forced.

00:49:14.460 What I mean by woke is like very forced and shoehorned political messaging

00:49:18.640 intentionally from,

00:49:19.880 you know,

00:49:20.540 the people who are punting them out.

00:49:22.860 I always try to define it.

00:49:24.320 Like when,

00:49:24.780 when my movies started to look like afterschool specials,

00:49:27.640 you know what I mean?

00:49:28.260 Like,

00:49:28.480 like there's a conservative version to this too,

00:49:30.880 right?

00:49:31.040 That's like why so many Christian movies are bad is because they're

00:49:34.340 obsessed with pushing that as far up front as possible.

00:49:37.720 When there are plenty of great movies made by Christians that show

00:49:40.840 Christian themes and don't need to like,

00:49:43.040 just hit you with the message.

00:49:44.500 And it's the same thing.

00:49:45.460 I feel like where there was always a certain leftist bias in Hollywood,

00:49:49.340 but all of a sudden it became extremely important to,

00:49:52.540 you know,

00:49:52.720 give the altar call in,

00:49:54.440 in the middle of the movie.

00:49:55.700 Well,

00:49:55.860 what's interesting is that like these sort of,

00:49:58.140 these movies can be good.

00:49:59.860 Right.

00:50:00.320 And obviously,

00:50:01.500 you know,

00:50:02.880 I'm not going to say that the,

00:50:04.720 I'm not going to say that the left owns,

00:50:06.860 you know,

00:50:08.360 doing away with apartheid.

00:50:09.760 That's not,

00:50:10.680 you know,

00:50:11.300 I agree with doing away with apartheid and I'm on the right.

00:50:14.780 So,

00:50:15.180 but at the time,

00:50:16.880 I guess you could have considered that sort of a leftist kind of

00:50:19.680 progressive idea,

00:50:20.620 but the movie district nine,

00:50:23.220 if you think about it,

00:50:24.320 in my opinion,

00:50:25.260 that's kind of where I clock the beginning of political messaging in,

00:50:32.320 in movies,

00:50:33.140 like because there was political movies that came out prior,

00:50:36.240 but I think people saw the success of district nine,

00:50:40.300 which is essentially an allegory for apartheid in South Africa.

00:50:44.340 They saw the success of district nine.

00:50:46.160 And they were like,

00:50:46.620 okay,

00:50:46.800 how can we rep replicate this again and again and again and again,

00:50:51.420 and force it because district nine wasn't forced.

00:50:55.600 It was just a guy's dream and a story.

00:50:57.640 And he told a good one.

00:50:58.700 It's a great movie.

00:50:59.460 If you go back and watch it,

00:51:00.280 it still holds up.

00:51:01.140 And I feel like that's kind of when it started to permeate,

00:51:06.420 like the people in the corporate rooms were like,

00:51:10.380 okay,

00:51:10.980 it was really successful.

00:51:12.340 How can we kind of,

00:51:13.520 you know,

00:51:13.920 how can we kind of continue to pump out more of these progressive films?

00:51:16.860 Cause it gave them a formula,

00:51:18.700 right?

00:51:18.920 So it's like those movies can be done well,

00:51:21.360 but they're not being done well because you know,

00:51:24.140 the people who are doing them are talentless hacks and they're like forcing,

00:51:28.540 they're like,

00:51:29.360 they want it to be as in your face as possible.

00:51:31.900 And it wasn't like that for district nine.

00:51:33.760 A lot of people just went to go see it and they were like aliens,

00:51:36.360 you know,

00:51:36.740 alien movie,

00:51:37.840 let's go.

00:51:38.260 but I think kind of like that's people,

00:51:41.720 a lot of people think that the woke stuff like started with what's that movie.

00:51:48.560 The guy's stuck like in his head or something inside his,

00:51:52.460 what's the Jordan Peele.

00:51:54.120 Oh,

00:51:54.580 get out.

00:51:55.240 That's it.

00:51:56.500 And,

00:51:57.080 you know,

00:51:57.500 I think that it kind of,

00:51:58.720 the blueprint was given before it,

00:52:00.420 but it was actually given to them by films that were good.

00:52:05.440 So before we go,

00:52:07.200 I want to ask you one more question.

00:52:09.480 The,

00:52:10.260 the problem,

00:52:13.320 a lot of people today run into when they look back at the Lord of the Rings is

00:52:17.360 they don't realize that again,

00:52:19.840 Tolkien is,

00:52:20.520 you know,

00:52:20.700 they've turned the fantasy genre into like this big progressive hug fest.

00:52:24.840 And they can't imagine,

00:52:26.060 you know,

00:52:26.880 that there's,

00:52:27.560 there's anyone who has a different opinion.

00:52:29.320 They can't,

00:52:29.780 they can't grasp a world that is not just soaked in this ideology.

00:52:33.480 And so when they find out that Tolkien,

00:52:35.640 for instance,

00:52:36.500 you know,

00:52:37.000 supported Francisco Franco in,

00:52:39.440 in the Spanish civil war,

00:52:41.360 they're very confused.

00:52:42.880 And,

00:52:43.320 and I think one of the things that the Lord of the Rings does,

00:52:46.680 and the reason that it shines through is that Tolkien had to go to war.

00:52:51.480 Right.

00:52:52.040 And this is not me advocating for,

00:52:54.020 you know,

00:52:54.380 I,

00:52:54.560 I,

00:52:55.040 I'm very tired of America doing forever wars.

00:52:58.020 This is not me talking about how we need to be in wars all the time,

00:53:01.260 but there is a real thing that changes a dynamic that changes when you recognize existential conflict.

00:53:08.720 Right.

00:53:09.240 You can,

00:53:09.580 you can write it like,

00:53:10.420 obviously there's lots of violence and murder even,

00:53:12.960 and,

00:53:13.360 you know,

00:53:13.480 in,

00:53:13.620 in all of these modern movies,

00:53:15.660 but you don't understand how,

00:53:18.940 you know,

00:53:19.540 these hard choices can bring about their own nobility and the,

00:53:23.520 the qualities that arise in those moments.

00:53:26.360 And,

00:53:26.700 and it becomes very difficult,

00:53:28.040 you know,

00:53:28.700 for a lot of people to not to,

00:53:31.320 you know,

00:53:31.500 progressives to look at this.

00:53:32.680 And even though they love violent content,

00:53:34.820 they can't imagine a man fighting for the existence of his religion,

00:53:39.120 his church,

00:53:39.600 his family,

00:53:40.140 these things simply don't translate for them.

00:53:42.540 And so even though,

00:53:43.580 uh,

00:53:44.180 Tolkien was not a fascist and I don't think Franco was a fascist.

00:53:47.480 So that's a longer discussion.

00:53:48.520 Uh,

00:53:48.980 you know,

00:53:49.280 he,

00:53:49.980 he recognized that this is a man who's making hard choices to defend something that,

00:53:54.800 uh,

00:53:55.220 Tolkien of,

00:53:56.660 you know,

00:53:56.820 really loved,

00:53:57.720 which was the Catholic church.

00:53:59.160 Uh,

00:53:59.480 and so it's hard for them to grasp how a guy like that could make something that they love,

00:54:05.700 but actually the thing they love is soaked in those values.

00:54:09.080 It's soaked in that acknowledgement of protectors,

00:54:12.860 you know,

00:54:13.100 masculinity,

00:54:14.220 uh,

00:54:14.420 higher values,

00:54:15.240 transcendent things that are worth battling for,

00:54:17.420 uh,

00:54:17.940 you know,

00:54:18.200 the,

00:54:18.580 the,

00:54:18.840 the speech of course,

00:54:20.000 um,

00:54:20.540 um,

00:54:21.160 uh,

00:54:21.520 between,

00:54:22.200 uh,

00:54:22.340 you know,

00:54:22.580 Sam,

00:54:23.120 uh,

00:54:23.320 talking about,

00:54:23.960 uh,

00:54:24.200 and Frodo and,

00:54:24.880 you know,

00:54:25.400 these things are no Gandalf and,

00:54:27.340 uh,

00:54:27.500 you know,

00:54:28.000 uh,

00:54:28.540 all men who live through these moments,

00:54:30.200 uh,

00:54:30.920 you know,

00:54:31.220 don't wish it to be the case,

00:54:32.660 but it's fallen to you and you have to do it.

00:54:34.820 I'm,

00:54:35.000 I'm butchering the speech,

00:54:36.080 but you know,

00:54:36.380 the one I'm talking about,

00:54:37.100 uh,

00:54:37.700 the time that was given to you.

00:54:40.160 Yeah.

00:54:40.520 Like those things just don't translate to people who have spent their entire lives,

00:54:45.500 you know,

00:54:46.100 going from a government school to an email job to watching Netflix,

00:54:50.800 you know,

00:54:51.300 like never had a family,

00:54:52.740 never had a faith,

00:54:53.660 never understood the importance of defending a country.

00:54:56.600 Like those themes that like the,

00:54:58.900 the action,

00:54:59.580 the lore,

00:55:00.140 those superficial things that other fantasy genre stuff today share,

00:55:04.260 those tropes that have largely been defined by Lord of the Rings,

00:55:07.840 uh,

00:55:08.380 still exist.

00:55:09.140 And that's the thing that people think they like,

00:55:10.980 but they don't recognize that.

00:55:12.160 No,

00:55:12.320 it's actually those very,

00:55:14.020 uh,

00:55:15.060 transcendent truths that were worth fighting and dying for that token directly

00:55:19.860 understood.

00:55:20.420 Those are the things that actually translate in Lord of the Rings and give it a

00:55:24.460 quality that,

00:55:25.320 you know,

00:55:25.820 something like Harry Potter or,

00:55:27.600 you know,

00:55:27.860 whatever the new,

00:55:29.160 you know,

00:55:29.480 fantasy genre thing just doesn't have.

00:55:32.080 Yeah.

00:55:32.560 Yeah.

00:55:32.780 Yeah.

00:55:33.080 Precisely.

00:55:33.560 Yeah.

00:55:33.740 I don't even know how that show is doing.

00:55:35.560 Oh,

00:55:35.820 that I,

00:55:36.240 the first season is so bad.

00:55:37.580 Like,

00:55:37.780 I don't even know how I made it through one season of that show.

00:55:40.140 It was amazingly bad.

00:55:41.440 Yeah.

00:55:41.700 I heard.

00:55:42.200 And I,

00:55:42.460 I actually,

00:55:43.280 I haven't read any of those books.

00:55:44.520 I do have friends who are huge fans.

00:55:47.460 So,

00:55:47.820 um,

00:55:48.720 I I'm surprised I saw recently they were doing season four.

00:55:51.640 I was like,

00:55:52.080 Oh wow.

00:55:52.440 I thought that was,

00:55:53.200 I thought that show was done.

00:55:54.980 Um,

00:55:55.900 but yeah,

00:55:57.700 to,

00:55:58.020 to go back to what you're saying,

00:55:59.200 I think that for these people,

00:56:01.340 um,

00:56:02.240 and a lot of these,

00:56:03.440 I mean,

00:56:04.980 and we see there's,

00:56:05.840 there's little left wing token fans online.

00:56:08.500 A lot of them work for the token society and right for the token society,

00:56:12.600 you know,

00:56:13.420 and they,

00:56:13.860 um,

00:56:14.200 I can't debate with them anymore because they have me blocked,

00:56:16.840 but they are,

00:56:19.100 they're academics.

00:56:21.080 Again,

00:56:21.740 it's,

00:56:22.060 we talk about cream rising to the top.

00:56:23.760 It's like these people,

00:56:24.920 there's a societal filter that pushes a lot of these ideologues that most of them,

00:56:31.380 I won't say all of them.

00:56:32.520 Um,

00:56:33.080 but most of them really nothing,

00:56:36.440 nothing that they see of value as far as transcendence and humanity goes beyond the human.

00:56:43.120 It's,

00:56:43.280 it's humanism is essentially all that matters to them.

00:56:45.920 So anything beyond,

00:56:47.740 um,

00:56:49.020 diversity and equity,

00:56:50.140 anything,

00:56:50.700 um,

00:56:51.480 that is exclusive to,

00:56:53.740 you know,

00:56:54.160 one certain belief system,

00:56:55.740 they see no value in it and they can't comprehend that anyone else would have or see value in it unless,

00:57:01.980 unless they're a malicious person.

00:57:03.820 They believe that if you are,

00:57:06.780 um,

00:57:07.740 if you are someone who believes in a specific thing,

00:57:11.300 then you are inherently an exclusive person.

00:57:14.240 And therefore,

00:57:15.060 since you are exclusive,

00:57:16.200 you are backward because the only thing that matters to them is inclusivity and humanism.

00:57:22.080 Um,

00:57:23.120 and these are the people that are being given control over all of our content that comes out.

00:57:27.800 So they really,

00:57:30.060 I mean,

00:57:30.420 they hate you.

00:57:31.260 They hold you with disdain.

00:57:32.980 They see you as everything wrong with society and they don't even have sort of the filter.

00:57:38.620 I mean,

00:57:38.860 cause there's people we don't like,

00:57:40.100 right.

00:57:40.500 As conservatives.

00:57:41.940 Um,

00:57:42.420 but we have the filter of looking at that person and being like,

00:57:45.520 all right,

00:57:46.340 not everybody does it mind you,

00:57:48.000 you know,

00:57:48.240 I'll say that,

00:57:48.840 but all right,

00:57:49.700 you're made in the image of God.

00:57:50.980 And I have a mandate to,

00:57:52.400 to love you and see you as for that reason alone worth respect.

00:57:58.420 Um,

00:57:58.740 um,

00:57:59.240 but they don't have that same filter.

00:58:01.300 So,

00:58:01.860 um,

00:58:02.540 um,

00:58:02.900 it creates a very high level of disdain and,

00:58:08.320 you know,

00:58:10.300 uh,

00:58:10.980 it puts them at disarray when they find out that their favorite things are actually originate from these ideas that they hate so much.

00:58:19.040 And,

00:58:19.520 you know,

00:58:19.800 Tolkien was right to,

00:58:21.640 um,

00:58:22.380 he,

00:58:23.600 he is,

00:58:25.740 was a huge Catholic,

00:58:27.080 you know,

00:58:27.300 it was the most important thing to him in his life.

00:58:30.600 And I don't know how any,

00:58:32.200 any Catholic can look at what was going on in Spain at the time.

00:58:35.440 And the amount of destruction of lives of the clergy that was taking place.

00:58:40.580 Like,

00:58:40.760 I don't know how anyone,

00:58:42.000 I don't know how anyone can fault him for,

00:58:44.240 um,

00:58:45.200 for having that opinion.

00:58:46.600 Uh,

00:58:47.220 but for them,

00:58:48.080 again,

00:58:48.560 none of,

00:58:48.920 none of that really matters because they might say like,

00:58:51.420 oh,

00:58:51.620 well,

00:58:52.000 deaths were bad on both sides.

00:58:53.400 And one side was fighting for what I believe in,

00:58:55.600 um,

00:58:56.260 which is nothing beyond the human realm.

00:58:59.960 So yeah,

00:59:02.180 I think that,

00:59:02.740 I think that's ultimately correct.

00:59:04.180 All right,

00:59:04.460 guys.

00:59:04.800 Well,

00:59:05.020 we have some questions from the audience,

00:59:06.840 so we'll move over there in just a second,

00:59:08.260 but before we do,

00:59:09.780 where can people find,

00:59:10.840 uh,

00:59:11.320 your work?

00:59:11.980 If they,

00:59:12.400 anything you want to let them know is coming up,

00:59:14.220 anything like that?

00:59:15.180 Sure.

00:59:15.660 I,

00:59:15.960 uh,

00:59:16.180 so my,

00:59:18.820 my followers have been making fun of me for a while.

00:59:21.220 Cause it's been a minute since I've put out a podcast,

00:59:23.880 but you can find my podcast on Apple and Spotify.

00:59:26.480 Um,

00:59:27.380 I have been meaning to get back into it.

00:59:29.200 I have a little girl who has been keeping me very busy,

00:59:33.380 um,

00:59:33.800 just very busy time in my life.

00:59:35.340 So I haven't been able to devote as much time to it as I wanted to,

00:59:39.800 but you know,

00:59:40.440 my intention in the new year is to really get back into it,

00:59:43.420 um,

00:59:44.140 and be more disciplined with putting that stuff out.

00:59:46.680 So you can find me on Apple,

00:59:48.660 Spotify,

00:59:49.180 and then at middle earth mixer,

00:59:51.400 no ER,

00:59:52.140 just an R at the end.

00:59:53.040 Cause I ran out of space.

00:59:54.420 Maybe Elon can fix that.

00:59:56.480 Um,

00:59:56.920 yeah,

00:59:58.880 I know it's a,

00:59:59.620 it's a long title.

01:00:00.440 I had to,

01:00:00.740 I had to retitle the video.

01:00:01.980 So it'd fit on YouTube.

01:00:03.780 Adding your name,

01:00:04.740 but no,

01:00:05.260 it's,

01:00:05.440 it's,

01:00:05.680 it's a great Twitter account and I'm sure everyone would be looking

01:00:08.420 forward to a more podcast episodes.

01:00:10.860 Uh,

01:00:11.220 it sounds like you got the right kind of excuse,

01:00:12.720 uh,

01:00:13.160 you know,

01:00:13.460 for,

01:00:13.740 for being busy.

01:00:14.380 So I think people will forgive you there.

01:00:16.840 All right,

01:00:17.160 let's head over to the questions of the people here real quick.

01:00:19.760 Uh,

01:00:20.020 creeper weirdo says,

01:00:21.040 so you're saying that the Lord of the Rings is woke is the woke,

01:00:24.540 right?

01:00:24.840 Is maybe that what you're,

01:00:25.980 yeah,

01:00:26.160 the James Lindsay is very angry at all.

01:00:28.520 He would certainly,

01:00:29.180 it's,

01:00:29.420 it's a fascist,

01:00:30.220 right?

01:00:30.740 So I actually,

01:00:31.920 this is,

01:00:32.300 this is great that I have you right now because I've actually been

01:00:35.080 trying to figure out exactly what woke,

01:00:37.380 right?

01:00:37.580 Is,

01:00:38.040 you know,

01:00:38.360 I've just been,

01:00:39.060 I've just been watching the discourse kind of the,

01:00:42.000 the past,

01:00:42.780 you know,

01:00:42.900 a couple of weeks.

01:00:43.500 And I see these people and James Lindsay is involved.

01:00:46.760 I think he,

01:00:47.400 he might have me blocked.

01:00:48.480 I don't know if you can even,

01:00:49.780 he's got everybody blocked.

01:00:51.100 That's the,

01:00:51.440 yeah.

01:00:51.980 I don't see his tweets at this point.

01:00:53.760 So I don't really is woke woke,

01:00:55.960 right?

01:00:56.540 Like people who on the right who are excluding,

01:00:59.520 you know,

01:01:00.240 other people is that,

01:01:01.240 is that,

01:01:01.920 am I getting that right?

01:01:02.680 I think it's just everybody that a certain cadre of people hate,

01:01:06.260 uh,

01:01:06.580 but,

01:01:06.780 but ultimately the,

01:01:08.280 you know,

01:01:08.520 it would have been better if they had just named it the illiberal

01:01:11.340 right.

01:01:11.740 That,

01:01:12.020 that probably would have been.

01:01:12.940 Oh,

01:01:13.020 okay.

01:01:13.500 That would have been correct.

01:01:14.820 Um,

01:01:15.380 if,

01:01:16.000 if still their attempt to be hostile,

01:01:17.820 at least it would have had some content to it.

01:01:19.960 Uh,

01:01:20.280 but,

01:01:20.620 uh,

01:01:20.900 yeah,

01:01:21.200 I think,

01:01:21.740 I think at this point it's basically just yelling a racist,

01:01:24.780 fascist,

01:01:25.280 you know,

01:01:25.520 that,

01:01:25.800 that,

01:01:26.240 that,

01:01:26.340 that kind of thing.

01:01:27.480 Oh,

01:01:27.640 okay.

01:01:28.140 Okay.

01:01:28.640 Well,

01:01:29.120 uh,

01:01:30.300 was that another question?

01:01:31.420 Oh,

01:01:31.460 no,

01:01:31.580 go ahead.

01:01:32.200 I let you finish your thought there.

01:01:33.680 Oh,

01:01:33.800 I was just going to say,

01:01:34.460 so,

01:01:34.680 so you're saying that woke,

01:01:36.160 right is liberal.

01:01:37.740 What right or illiberal?

01:01:39.620 No,

01:01:39.800 I think it would be,

01:01:40.840 it would be,

01:01:41.260 it would be those who believe themselves,

01:01:43.500 uh,

01:01:44.380 to be criticizing,

01:01:45.800 uh,

01:01:46.840 illiberal right wingers,

01:01:48.880 uh,

01:01:49.560 from a classically liberal tradition.

01:01:52.500 Uh,

01:01:53.800 well,

01:01:54.180 I can tell you one thing,

01:01:55.380 folks,

01:01:55.760 let me,

01:01:56.800 uh,

01:01:57.160 as somebody who used to identify as classically liberal myself,

01:02:00.940 and has since changed that,

01:02:03.700 uh,

01:02:04.160 token was not a classical,

01:02:06.140 not even close.

01:02:07.380 Uh,

01:02:07.920 let me,

01:02:08.320 let me just get that out on the table there.

01:02:10.320 And I can say that with assurance.

01:02:12.800 Yeah.

01:02:13.600 I think you'd be correct there.

01:02:15.100 Uh,

01:02:15.400 let's see here.

01:02:16.260 Uh,

01:02:16.440 tiny stupid demon says I hereby promise to watch the extended Blu-ray,

01:02:20.380 uh,

01:02:21.200 box set.

01:02:21.900 That's been sitting next to my Blu-ray player for months now before the end of the year.

01:02:26.280 Did you ever,

01:02:27.160 um,

01:02:27.640 did you ever,

01:02:28.240 they,

01:02:28.420 they used to do this.

01:02:29.620 I think they still do every once in a while,

01:02:31.180 do like the marathon of all the extended additions in the theater in the same day.

01:02:36.340 Have you ever been to one of those?

01:02:37.600 I I've,

01:02:38.320 so I've gone back to watch them in the theater,

01:02:40.560 but I've never seen like an in theater marathon.

01:02:43.860 Uh,

01:02:44.220 I would love to go to the,

01:02:46.320 um,

01:02:46.880 they,

01:02:47.160 they do sort of the live music production.

01:02:49.340 That's,

01:02:49.840 that's my goal.

01:02:51.300 I'd like to take my wife to go see that.

01:02:52.940 Cause my wife is really,

01:02:54.520 she's really musically inclined.

01:02:55.980 Um,

01:02:56.880 and,

01:02:57.340 uh,

01:02:58.220 you know,

01:02:58.640 I,

01:02:58.880 that's kind of,

01:02:59.560 that,

01:02:59.780 that was my inroad with Lord of the Rings.

01:03:01.540 I was like,

01:03:01.800 you'll love the soundtrack.

01:03:02.980 There you go.

01:03:03.560 Yeah.

01:03:03.660 That's a good selling,

01:03:04.380 you know,

01:03:04.660 good selling point there.

01:03:07.200 All right.

01:03:08.100 Um,

01:03:08.700 and then Gortes say something nice about,

01:03:11.600 uh,

01:03:11.760 I don't even know what all that abbreviation stands for.

01:03:13.860 A song of ice and fire.

01:03:15.160 Oh,

01:03:15.520 okay.

01:03:16.100 Are you,

01:03:16.420 are you like,

01:03:17.280 uh,

01:03:17.780 are you violently against,

01:03:19.520 uh,

01:03:20.440 uh,

01:03:20.880 game of Thrones?

01:03:21.820 Is that the scenario or?

01:03:23.300 No,

01:03:23.660 I mean,

01:03:24.020 I mostly,

01:03:24.540 I like to bother people.

01:03:25.980 You know,

01:03:26.520 a little bit.

01:03:27.020 So I like to get people riled up.

01:03:28.820 Um,

01:03:29.120 I think that a song of ice and fire can't hold a candle to Lord of the Rings.

01:03:34.240 I don't think it even comes close.

01:03:36.040 I don't care how much George R.R.

01:03:38.600 Martin,

01:03:39.200 more words he's written in it.

01:03:40.760 It's like,

01:03:41.400 if the words are,

01:03:42.280 are still slop,

01:03:43.800 then it's,

01:03:44.240 it's not going to be,

01:03:45.140 uh,

01:03:45.700 you know,

01:03:46.380 it's a bigger car.

01:03:48.840 It doesn't make for a nicer car.

01:03:50.700 Um,

01:03:51.900 something nice about it though.

01:03:53.100 I will say,

01:03:53.920 um,

01:03:54.320 I think it's good.

01:03:57.100 I think it's a good whodunit,

01:03:58.500 you know,

01:03:58.800 and I,

01:03:59.100 and that's basically,

01:03:59.780 that's the value I see in a song of ice and fire,

01:04:02.480 uh,

01:04:03.040 is that it's it,

01:04:04.600 the payoff is kind of like the end of the book.

01:04:07.020 So you get done and,

01:04:09.360 or,

01:04:09.560 or even the show,

01:04:10.920 um,

01:04:12.160 you get done and you're like,

01:04:13.220 all right,

01:04:13.600 cool.

01:04:14.060 You know,

01:04:14.260 I know,

01:04:14.580 I know what happens,

01:04:15.400 but like,

01:04:16.040 as far as like,

01:04:18.300 I don't think 200 years from now,

01:04:21.280 unless they've never read it before,

01:04:22.640 someone is going to be rereading,

01:04:24.220 you know,

01:04:24.500 a song of ice and fire.

01:04:25.680 That's just,

01:04:26.600 that's just me,

01:04:27.200 but it is,

01:04:27.880 it is,

01:04:28.460 it's a fun read.

01:04:30.720 I'll,

01:04:31.260 I'll say something about that,

01:04:32.800 uh,

01:04:33.220 that book and that series.

01:04:35.200 Um,

01:04:35.580 the,

01:04:35.920 the first,

01:04:37.220 uh,

01:04:38.080 couple seasons of the show,

01:04:39.500 uh,

01:04:40.220 are obviously much better.

01:04:41.520 And,

01:04:41.920 you know,

01:04:42.100 uh,

01:04:42.400 and then it kind of wears,

01:04:43.680 wears out its welcome.

01:04:44.860 Uh,

01:04:45.460 but there are several moments in the first few seasons where they give some pretty good speeches on the nature of political power.

01:04:53.120 Uh,

01:04:53.460 the,

01:04:54.000 you know,

01:04:54.260 one of the famous ones is,

01:04:55.540 uh,

01:04:56.640 the little finger and,

01:04:58.280 um,

01:04:59.260 Oh,

01:04:59.920 amazing character.

01:05:01.280 Yeah.

01:05:01.580 But Varys,

01:05:02.620 uh,

01:05:02.780 but they're,

01:05:03.120 they're giving,

01:05:03.700 you know,

01:05:03.840 they're having that debate over power and the nature of power.

01:05:07.640 And,

01:05:08.200 you know,

01:05:08.280 he's talking about,

01:05:09.020 well,

01:05:09.180 that's the,

01:05:09.600 the,

01:05:09.920 the,

01:05:10.400 the fort,

01:05:11.200 the blades forge and Aegon's fire.

01:05:13.080 And,

01:05:13.720 you know,

01:05:13.840 what does it mean?

01:05:14.660 If we don't believe in the shared myth and then little fingers talking about,

01:05:18.500 you know,

01:05:18.640 it's chaos is a ladder and it's this ability to climb and the disruption.

01:05:21.920 And that,

01:05:22.680 that there's like a,

01:05:23.420 you know,

01:05:23.740 union themes in there.

01:05:25.020 Like that's a relatively complex piece of writing.

01:05:29.000 Like that,

01:05:29.460 that,

01:05:29.680 that's good.

01:05:30.280 My writing,

01:05:30.920 that's good delivery as everything around it.

01:05:33.340 Perfect.

01:05:33.740 No,

01:05:34.120 but you know,

01:05:34.540 the,

01:05:34.820 there are moments in that show,

01:05:36.740 uh,

01:05:37.380 that are much smarter,

01:05:38.620 uh,

01:05:39.280 than most TV,

01:05:40.400 you know,

01:05:40.860 at that time.

01:05:41.640 But,

01:05:42.140 and,

01:05:42.580 and this part of the take is I'm just ripping off,

01:05:44.600 from my buddy,

01:05:45.120 Dave,

01:05:45.300 the distributist.

01:05:45.920 It's not new to me.

01:05:46.720 Uh,

01:05:47.120 but the,

01:05:47.580 the reason that that show and that book series ultimately fails is it's a

01:05:52.480 deconstruction.

01:05:53.100 Of course,

01:05:53.480 it's just a deconstruction of the fantasy tropes.

01:05:55.360 And that's what everybody's doing.

01:05:56.660 And that's what everybody's doing.

01:05:56.740 That's all.

01:05:57.080 Yeah.

01:05:57.200 It's the deconstruction,

01:05:58.340 but it's a well done deconstruction for a good percentage of it,

01:06:01.000 but you just can't land that plane because ultimately the,

01:06:04.680 the,

01:06:05.180 you know,

01:06:05.640 the telos of that type of story is heading towards a,

01:06:09.160 a particular resolution that you can't deconstruct.

01:06:12.300 Like you need the return of the king.

01:06:14.600 You need that heroic moment.

01:06:16.100 And because you've deconstructed so thoroughly,

01:06:18.200 there's no satisfying way to end it because you've stripped out all of the

01:06:23.200 things that would make it feel complete.

01:06:25.140 All of the qualities necessary to,

01:06:27.380 to complete it.

01:06:28.040 The way that the Lord of the Rings is completed is gone because you tried to

01:06:31.280 deconstruct the hero's journey.

01:06:32.460 And now you can't return.

01:06:34.140 You can't have that moment of justice returning because you,

01:06:37.740 you deconstructed,

01:06:38.740 you destroyed the things that would need to come back together.

01:06:41.460 You shattered in,

01:06:42.680 you shattered the blade in a very real way to where it never can be

01:06:46.120 reconstructed.

01:06:47.060 Yeah.

01:06:47.560 And in all seriousness,

01:06:48.380 like in fairness,

01:06:49.860 you know,

01:06:50.280 full admission to my followers,

01:06:52.320 I have not read a song of ice and fire.

01:06:54.340 I just like to really,

01:06:55.520 Oh yeah.

01:06:55.980 Here's the skin.

01:06:56.780 I like to,

01:06:57.440 I like to,

01:06:58.440 you know,

01:06:59.240 just,

01:06:59.800 just stir the pot a little bit.

01:07:01.720 But this is the big argument that I actually like to articulate with

01:07:06.780 do something that I actually care about.

01:07:09.840 A song of ice and fire is,

01:07:11.460 you know,

01:07:11.760 it's,

01:07:12.160 it's,

01:07:12.460 if you like it,

01:07:13.020 great.

01:07:13.380 You know,

01:07:13.600 I,

01:07:13.740 I haven't,

01:07:14.340 I haven't even read it.

01:07:15.160 So I don't,

01:07:16.100 I don't,

01:07:17.440 maybe I'll read it one day.

01:07:18.360 It's just,

01:07:18.640 I don't have the time to do things.

01:07:20.860 He also sells the books by the pound.

01:07:23.080 You know,

01:07:23.240 they're like 900 pages.

01:07:24.500 So that's another problem.

01:07:26.320 But I have read Dune and I really love Dune.

01:07:30.160 And I've,

01:07:30.600 you know,

01:07:30.880 I've talked about this.

01:07:33.400 There's sort of a,

01:07:35.440 there's something that's happening with Dune where I agree very deeply with a

01:07:40.560 lot of the presuppositions of the altar,

01:07:42.780 altar author on an extremely surface level,

01:07:46.540 you know,

01:07:46.800 like everything about governance,

01:07:49.120 power,

01:07:49.920 human nature,

01:07:50.940 the sad parts of human nature.

01:07:54.420 You love it.

01:07:55.420 And the dialogue is so good.

01:07:58.320 When I read Dune though,

01:08:01.040 and you get done the first book,

01:08:03.640 right?

01:08:04.100 And Paul has,

01:08:05.980 Paul has his,

01:08:06.860 his revenge.

01:08:07.760 It's this complete story.

01:08:09.520 It's,

01:08:10.420 it's,

01:08:10.440 it's really a play out of the archetype of the stolen throne.

01:08:16.400 You know,

01:08:17.220 the,

01:08:17.680 the,

01:08:18.620 this classic story,

01:08:20.400 you know,

01:08:20.620 you could compare it to Amleth,

01:08:21.940 like the uncle steals the throne.

01:08:23.540 You know,

01:08:24.800 some family member steals the throne and the exiled prince comes back and,

01:08:30.120 and he gets his justice,

01:08:32.260 his revenge.

01:08:33.700 And,

01:08:34.420 you know,

01:08:34.740 he's essentially this chosen one who's,

01:08:37.300 who's gifted with power based off of his,

01:08:39.420 his lineage.

01:08:40.540 And that story,

01:08:43.400 which Frank Herbert was essentially trying to deconstruct.

01:08:47.000 He wanted to deconstruct this,

01:08:48.340 this traditional Western,

01:08:49.460 you know,

01:08:49.760 chosen one narrative.

01:08:50.800 In trying to do that,

01:08:54.020 he actually told a version of that story that everyone really loves.

01:08:58.140 You know,

01:08:58.320 there's a reason why the first Dune book is the most popular one.

01:09:01.760 There's a reason why the movie that we all just watched is extremely popular.

01:09:05.620 And,

01:09:06.240 you know,

01:09:06.380 we're not even really sure if Messiah is even going to come out,

01:09:09.280 right?

01:09:09.560 There's a reason for that.

01:09:10.800 It's because everyone likes the story that gets told in the first book.

01:09:15.640 And people don't really care to go beyond that because you hear,

01:09:19.480 you're like,

01:09:19.720 what happens?

01:09:20.800 He what,

01:09:21.740 you know,

01:09:21.940 like,

01:09:22.160 I don't want to hear about that.

01:09:23.280 Like,

01:09:23.420 I want to see his revenge.

01:09:24.580 I want to see his,

01:09:25.860 you know,

01:09:26.680 him sitting back in his rightful place.

01:09:30.360 And,

01:09:30.960 you know,

01:09:31.520 I think that that is,

01:09:32.540 that's a testament.

01:09:33.600 It speaks to like how Frank Herbert actually,

01:09:36.620 he,

01:09:37.160 he failed because he essentially proved the thing that he was trying to,

01:09:41.260 to disprove.

01:09:42.140 He was trying to teach everybody a lesson,

01:09:43.760 but what really resonated with all of us deeply was the actual first story of,

01:09:49.120 you know,

01:09:49.660 the villains getting justice and Paul,

01:09:53.040 you know,

01:09:53.280 getting his position back,

01:09:54.540 even if you don't fully agree with how he got there.

01:09:57.740 Yeah,

01:09:58.240 no,

01:09:58.420 I do think there's a larger point about the,

01:10:01.420 the next two books and kind of the,

01:10:03.000 the Paul trilogy,

01:10:04.220 at least the,

01:10:04.980 the,

01:10:05.140 the Atreides trilogy.

01:10:06.000 But I do think you're right that they,

01:10:08.520 at the end,

01:10:09.180 you're not supposed to like Paul,

01:10:11.560 but most people do,

01:10:12.820 right?

01:10:13.060 Like the book is supposed to be a warning about Messiah figures.

01:10:16.240 And everyone's like,

01:10:17.220 no,

01:10:17.440 actually,

01:10:17.700 that's just awesome that he like,

01:10:19.180 like he did all that stuff like that.

01:10:21.840 It's like good fellas,

01:10:22.840 you know,

01:10:23.160 like it's supposed to,

01:10:24.200 it's supposed to make gangster life look terrible,

01:10:26.220 but then most people like come out and they're like,

01:10:28.440 no,

01:10:28.580 that seems like pretty cool.

01:10:29.440 You know,

01:10:29.680 like,

01:10:29.860 well,

01:10:30.880 all the people who committed the injustices were,

01:10:33.180 were served justice,

01:10:35.700 you know,

01:10:35.900 and that's,

01:10:36.360 that's what everyone wanted to see.

01:10:37.600 And then there's that,

01:10:38.480 of course,

01:10:38.840 that,

01:10:39.340 that sort of rise to power that we all like to see as men,

01:10:44.040 you know,

01:10:44.400 and the overcoming adversity.

01:10:47.660 And that's all in there in the first one.

01:10:49.800 So I think that's kind of what's funny about doing.

01:10:52.520 And I,

01:10:53.140 you know,

01:10:53.620 I agree with Frank Herbert from the human perspective,

01:10:57.340 but ultimately,

01:10:59.420 you know,

01:10:59.860 we,

01:11:00.960 we do believe in,

01:11:01.940 in transcendent values and we have a much less cynical view.

01:11:09.460 It has a very cynical view of humanity and,

01:11:11.620 and particularly religion,

01:11:14.260 the Dune books.

01:11:15.580 So it's just interesting because like,

01:11:18.620 there's so much that I disagree with,

01:11:19.960 but there's so much that I really love about Dune.

01:11:24.260 The aesthetic is unbeatable.

01:11:25.800 We can certainly agree that Dune is the far superior,

01:11:29.460 you know,

01:11:30.720 sort of,

01:11:32.100 or song of ice and fire.

01:11:33.200 Like it is definitely the,

01:11:34.500 the far better attempt at that,

01:11:36.500 even if it also fails in certain areas.

01:11:38.920 Oh,

01:11:39.200 we've got one more question before we go here.

01:11:41.180 Life of Brian says,

01:11:42.240 where does the cream go and how does the system lift the dross?

01:11:46.540 Nepotism,

01:11:47.120 ideological fanaticism,

01:11:48.960 blackmail.

01:11:50.020 So I,

01:11:50.500 I got a little disconnected,

01:11:51.860 but I guess he was pointing out that when you're saying that the cream is not rising to the top.

01:11:56.360 Yeah.

01:11:56.760 How does it write itself?

01:11:57.920 That might be a deeper question than that is a,

01:12:00.160 the stream.

01:12:01.060 That is a really good question.

01:12:02.580 And I honestly,

01:12:03.860 I don't even think that I can try to answer that right now.

01:12:07.640 Cause there's so many,

01:12:08.640 there's a extremely entrenched system in place of,

01:12:14.320 of media that really is sick and diseased.

01:12:21.780 And I'd be lying if I said I had the,

01:12:25.620 the means to solving the problem.

01:12:29.220 I think it really all starts out with us all being better men,

01:12:33.760 better people improving what we can around us.

01:12:36.960 There's,

01:12:37.280 there's a great quote from Tolkien.

01:12:40.220 It's about really just uprooting the evil in the fields that,

01:12:43.600 you know.

01:12:46.500 And I think that's what we all need to be doing.

01:12:49.640 All right.

01:12:50.200 A good place to leave it.

01:12:51.200 All right,

01:12:51.440 guys,

01:12:51.640 we're going to wrap it up.

01:12:52.600 Of course,

01:12:53.080 make sure that you're checking out mixer on Twitter and his podcast,

01:12:57.300 which I have been assured personally,

01:12:58.840 live on air will be resuming.

01:13:01.380 And I'm sure we'll be excellent when it returns.

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01:13:19.940 And when you do leave a rating or review,

01:13:22.020 it helps with the algorithm magic.

01:13:24.120 And of course,

01:13:24.560 if you want to pick up something for the holidays,

01:13:26.300 for your family,

01:13:27.220 your friends,

01:13:27.760 make sure to pick up the total state,

01:13:30.120 my book and the new merch for the show is now at the blaze merch store.

01:13:34.760 So if you had to shop blazemedia.com,

01:13:37.140 you can pick up things there,

01:13:38.500 support the show and get something for fans in your life.

01:13:41.900 Thank you everybody for watching.

01:13:43.080 And as always,

01:13:43.700 I will talk to you next time.

01:13:45.260 Bye.

01:13:53.120 Bye.

01:13:53.640 Bye.

01:13:53.940 Bye.

01:13:54.260 Bye.

01:13:54.600 Bye.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - December 13, 2024

LOTR： The Last Epic Before the Woke Revolution ｜ Guest： The Middle-earth Mixer ｜ 12⧸13⧸24

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