The Auron MacIntyre Show - Mending the MAGA Divide ｜ Guest： Charlemagne

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00:01:31.720 So unless you have been under a rock, you probably know that there is a war raging in Iran.

00:01:38.460 And while there had already been some different back and forth issues between factions of the Trump coalition, the MAGA coalition, this war has created a far more serious divide.

00:01:52.780 We're seeing a lot of people get very hostile. Some people are swearing off Trump. Other people are saying, if you don't support any foreign war that we might get involved in and you are simply insufficiently loyal to Trump and you're trying to undermine the Republicans and put the Democrats into power, these opposing narratives are simply not helping the situation.

00:02:14.280 And we are in a, well, situation where ultimately, if we do not see victory from the right, not just in the midterms, but in the next presidential election, our country is in a very bad place.

00:02:27.540 I mean, I don't have any love for the Republican Party, but it's very clear that the Democrats are planning to throw the borders open, to imprison many of their political opponents, to undo all the work that Trump did and make things much, much worse for the American people.

00:02:41.820 And we simply can't allow that.

00:02:44.280 One of my friends, Charlemagne, wrote an article on the Old Glory Club substack about how we might be able to ultimately mend this divide in MAG.

00:02:54.120 And I think that's an incredibly important topic right now.

00:02:56.680 So, Charlemagne, thank you so much for coming on.

00:02:59.720 Well, thank you for inviting me.

00:03:01.020 I'm really glad you did because this allows us to discuss this issue off of Twitter.com.

00:03:07.240 and one of the things i was hoping to do is move this discussion off of twitter into long-form

00:03:13.700 discussions into essays where we can get into the meat of things and not be limited by the sort of

00:03:18.780 inherent hostility of twitter and 240 character tweets or i guess if you're you know on twitter

00:03:23.800 blue as much as you want but whatever no i think that's huge because look i am somebody who is

00:03:31.220 very familiar with how twitter works i know how to frame things to get certain reactions

00:03:36.620 I understand that ultimately there is a way that you're going to just bifurcate the discussion whenever you start digging in to Twitter, like the different tribes form up, the hostilities run very high, and it's very easy to take what was a moderate disagreement and turn it into a full-blown friend-enemy distinction, which I think is kind of what we are in the process of seeing happen here.

00:04:02.720 So like you, I certainly have many friends on the other side of this particular issue, ones who I think are valuable to the conservative movement, to the right wing in America.

00:04:13.320 And I would hate to see that, you know, just get completely fractured over this issue, which I think ultimately can be resolved.

00:04:21.060 So I'm very glad that you kind of made this effort to lay this out, because I really think it's important that we address this in a way that can kind of bring people back together and recognize that, no, not everyone's going to get on board with everything.

00:04:34.140 And no, not everyone is going to care about your particular most important issue in the coalition.

00:04:40.080 And we still have to find ways to keep the Democrats and the left out of control of the country.

00:04:45.580 So with that said, why don't you just give that kind of basic framework of the debate and how it is shaping up right now and where you see the fault line or the big problem here?

00:04:55.700 Right. So the main fault line is between, I guess, what you would call trusting the plan versus not trusting the plan.

00:05:05.140 Trusting the plan is the sort of idea that we just need to follow everything Trump does and very publicly, positively signal towards him and make it clear that the administration sort of always has the support of its base.

00:05:20.180 And I think that's, in short, the sort of most charitable interpretation of that angle.

00:05:26.760 And then you have the other angle, which is like, you know, basically Trump is open to criticism.

00:05:32.120 You know, he's not, you know, a god emperor, as the old meme goes or something like that.

00:05:36.360 He can make mistakes and sometimes the criticisms can go too far.

00:05:40.040 And it's important to, you know, maintain a sort of fixed position on what needs to happen in America for the good of heritage Americans and this country overall moving forward, especially in light of the fact that, yes, we can acknowledge that Trump has opened up many opportunities for the American right and has done many good things, including, you know, the deportation of many illegal immigrants and the closing of borders.

00:06:07.780 But this country has many other problems. One of those problems actually is, as you said, the threat to Americans coming from the left should they attain power again. And this threat is not illusory. After all, we saw what happened with the January 6 protesters. Many of them went to prison for years. And I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that they were tortured psychologically in that state.

00:06:31.640 So we know what these people, our enemies, are willing to do if they get into power again. And sort of the key here is that Trump is not forever, right? Trump has about 70% of his remaining term left, the second term, or about 30% of the way through.

00:06:47.660 And from my perspective, which is more from the, as you said, non-interventionist or as the term I used, hardliner perspective, is like, look, we need to be in a position where we have a highly functioning MAGA coalition that we can operate in or else existing power structures, both in the old school neocon money and the Democrats are going to come together and crush us.

00:07:14.220 It's not that everyone, everyone wants MAGA destroyed, right? The Trump movement destroyed. And if, as Trump leaves the stage, there is not an extremely tight, organized, well-functioning coalition that hasn't fractured along these sort of how much do we back everything Trump does or not lines.

00:07:35.960 If we don't have that high-functioning coalition, we're going to be in a very bad place in

00:07:42.360 2028.

00:07:43.980 Just to stop you right there, I think that's so incredibly important because a lot of people

00:07:51.000 are currently saying, look, MAGA's over.

00:07:54.200 It's been corrupted.

00:07:55.520 We need to transcend it.

00:07:56.980 We have to have some new movement.

00:07:58.920 We have to leave this thing behind.

00:08:00.480 And it's really important for people to understand that this moment is incredibly, incredibly rare where you have this fusion of vanguardist political understandings on the right that simply have had very little momentum for decades.

00:08:19.420 along with a larger popular conservative movement with great populist appeal and a singular figure

00:08:30.000 charismatic enough to compel this and that is such a valuable amount of political uh capital

00:08:38.480 political ammunition that abandoning it is incredibly foolish now that doesn't mean

00:08:45.180 that the MAGA coalition isn't in danger right now it doesn't mean that you have to believe whatever

00:08:51.940 anyone in MAGA says or you know loyalty to MAGA is the only thing that matters but you have to be

00:08:58.440 very careful about discarding that level of political capital that level of political power

00:09:05.700 in this moment because even if you think it's insufficient and right now I'd say it is

00:09:09.780 insufficient. But even if you think that's the case, you will not get more of it by going and

00:09:16.720 trying to create something else. You will only get less and you only make it more likely that

00:09:21.520 the Democrats will move into power in perpetuity. Yes. And it's also very much on us now to fill in

00:09:31.040 these gaps and heal MAGA because there is no successor to Trump, right? Whether or not we

00:09:37.980 want to look at J.D. Vance or someone else who hasn't emerged yet. Trump is an historic figure

00:09:44.100 that appears often on the American right once every few decades. People often compare him to

00:09:48.920 Nixon. But there's not going to be another Trump. No one, and this is not like a knock against Vance

00:09:54.400 or anything, no one can uphold Trump's mantle because they're simply not Trump. He is a unique,

00:10:00.560 essential figure, but he's not going to be in power forever and he's not going to be around

00:10:04.660 forever. And whoever attempts to sort of take up the mantle, be that J.D. Vance or someone else,

00:10:10.700 they need the base to actually be much more effectively self-organizing. Because once,

00:10:17.520 I'm sure Trump will continue to do his rallies after his presidency ends to help whatever

00:10:23.020 selected candidate he would like to see. But it's not going to be enough once he actually

00:10:28.140 formally leaves the stage. And we saw what happened in 2020, right, with that election.

00:10:32.960 so it's not like it's a given that we're just going to win automatically in 2028 you know jd

00:10:38.400 vance is just going to walk in the door of the white house and you know mr miller is going to

00:10:42.880 be his vp or something and they're just going to you know just roll the ball right that's not going

00:10:46.680 to happen i think that is a fantasy and we now have to be less of followers of maga as we enter

00:10:54.840 this new phase and actually leaders of it when the leader of maga will be passing into history

00:11:00.420 you know soon enough inevitably that's all men do yeah and i think that this was always an aspect

00:11:07.280 of the movement right like the the strategy that i kind of outlined and adhered to through most of

00:11:13.660 the trump presidency is you know trust the plan but chimp in in this in the you know uh trust but

00:11:20.620 verify model where as you say we know that trump says a lot of stuff we know there are a lot of

00:11:26.460 influences inside the White House and even inside MAGA that can try to draw him astray.

00:11:32.720 And so one of the things that we have tried to do, because it is very clear that the Trump

00:11:36.420 administration pays a lot of attention to social media, especially Twitter, is to praise Trump

00:11:43.140 when something good is happening and correct when we think that something is going off the rails,

00:11:49.000 but still stay within the coalition still stay within supporting because ultimately a you know

00:11:56.840 the point is not to get rid of trump or replace trump the point was to guide trump towards

00:12:02.620 something that's ultimately going to stay in line with the vision that he ran on and is ultimately

00:12:08.140 going to be good for the american right and the american people and so it was this this strategy

00:12:13.240 of kind of maintaining that tension of support but never blind support understanding okay this

00:12:19.180 is our leader in this moment and it's critical that we have him but we also need to guide this

00:12:24.120 man because let's be honest you know this is the guy who put anthony fauci in charge of the country

00:12:29.000 like this is the guy who hired john bolton like trump has a history of being highly influenced

00:12:36.680 by advisors and not making the best decision when the wrong advisors are in the room he needs to

00:12:42.180 hear that feedback he thrives on that feedback so the idea that you just close your eyes and

00:12:47.600 follow trump well that gives you fauci that gets you john bolton right that gets you mark milley

00:12:52.620 but that doesn't mean that you're abandoning trump it simply means that trump needs a certain

00:12:58.720 level of encouragement and you know uh kind of to be spurred in a particular direction but when he

00:13:05.080 does that you can achieve great things so that that has been the plan so far but i believe the

00:13:11.200 war in iran brought us to a place that was a little harder for people to square that circle

00:13:15.920 yes with the war it has uh sort of one of the reasons i wrote the article at this moment is

00:13:24.620 because the war in particular sort of is taking place outside of what maga is supposed to be

00:13:31.460 now some people have tried to you know sort of fit the square peg in the round hole and explain

00:13:37.340 like, oh, well, Trump's always been against Iran. Look at these things he said in the

00:13:40.940 1990s. It's like, come on, man. We're talking about MAGA. We're talking about what Trump is

00:13:46.900 now. We're talking about he came on board, drained the swamp. He's always been the anti-war

00:13:51.340 president. Yes, he doesn't want Iran to get a nuke. Okay, we hit them like six months ago.

00:13:57.200 They won't get a nuke anymore. Yes, we haven't put quote unquote boots on the ground. But this

00:14:02.160 is sort of this whole boots on the ground thing is sort of short-circuiting the argument in a

00:14:07.720 unproductive way because people didn't like Trump because it's like he can start as many wars as he

00:14:14.860 want as long as he doesn't put boots on the ground no we just we want no more foreign wars we want

00:14:19.120 out of the Middle East you know I've seen arguments that like oh well by finishing off Iran here then

00:14:24.980 we can get out of the Middle East no how about we just get out of the Middle East and obviously

00:14:31.700 non-interventionist understand it's like okay you can't just teleport all the soldiers away

00:14:37.120 out of the bases and stuff there has to be a reasonable plan but this the iran issue is really

00:14:43.580 picking out an open wound here because it's so increasingly obvious that it is not really part

00:14:49.780 of the plan and that uh forces neocon forces who are fundamentally against maga and want it

00:14:57.180 destroyed as i think we are seeing like today with i saw an article about how like jd vance

00:15:02.940 is talking to netanyahu which seems like an obvious attempt to sabotage him and sort of

00:15:09.020 saddle him with the you know effects of the war like why is he even involved in this um frankly

00:15:14.140 like he should i actually really like that vance has sort of stayed away from the spotlight on

00:15:19.160 this thing because it to me it looks like a disaster it's harming the mega coalition the

00:15:23.300 thing needs to come to an end and trump needs to be advised by the people who know what is best for

00:15:29.520 the coalition because this is just not it i think we can just straightforwardly say whether or not

00:15:35.100 you think that the invasion of iran is like part of maga and trump's plan it is so obviously harming

00:15:43.000 maga itself that it needs to stop and we need to go back to at least the status quo before

00:15:48.860 yeah we're in this scenario and and i understand like i guess people know this at some level but

00:15:57.540 it's been kind of interesting to watch as this has unfolded we're in a scenario where it's very

00:16:03.600 obvious that the mainstream republican party is trying to ensure that maga ends with trump that

00:16:10.980 trump becomes a lame duck and that jd vance can't run or is going to lose in a primary or will lose

00:16:18.480 in a general election and that will just kind of be the end of the insurgent populist takeover of

00:16:23.820 the republican party and we can go back to business as usual as con inc you know doing

00:16:28.280 neocon stuff all day long that's been going on for a while i think people who have been paying

00:16:33.300 attention have seen the relentless push against jd vance by many israel hardliners uh many people

00:16:39.920 who who you know really support israel and uh they have been trying to unseat him uh we've seen a lot

00:16:46.920 of you know talk against tulsi gabbard uh we had conspiracy theories that were suddenly being

00:16:53.180 spread by people like uh josh hammer and laura loomer uh saying that uh that tulsi gabbard was

00:17:00.000 part of some kind of islamic fifth column inside of the white house uh and all of that was you know

00:17:08.280 being pushed suspiciously the day before tulsi gabbard then came out with a report saying that

00:17:15.040 And it looks like much of the Ukraine war funding was recycled, laundered back into the Biden administration's efforts to keep Trump from getting elected in the U.S.

00:17:30.660 Now, we're going to see a lot more once that investigation report is really vetted. But if that's true, that is a massive, massive, earth-shattering revelation that the sitting president, or at least whoever was running his administration, was funneling war aid through this proxy war with Russia back into the U.S. to manipulate American elections.

00:17:55.800 And I think, you know, there's no small coincidence that neocons really wanted Tulsi Gabbard out of the government at the same time when this report was going to come out.

00:18:09.140 If you listen to any of Joe Kent's interviews after he left the administration, he said repeatedly that guys like J.D. Vance and people like Tulsi Gabbard were more or less kind of moved out of the room for this discussion, that their voices were intentionally muted and they were often kept out of the loop on some of this stuff.

00:18:29.320 Now, of course, that's all court intrigue. Maybe that's not true. But from the other attempts to push people like J.D. Vance out of this position, I know a lot of people have concerns that, oh, well, you know, these guys aren't the real deal. And I understand it.

00:18:45.380 I understand having doubts about pretty much any and every politician involved in the American

00:18:50.480 process. But I think the fact that neocons are routinely pushing very specific people out of

00:18:58.000 the administration or wanting them or trying to sully them, trying to hijack the movement,

00:19:02.440 that all needs to be worked into your calculus when you're then evaluating what's going on with

00:19:07.780 this conservative civil war. Because I think a lot of what we're seeing is a political struggle

00:19:14.240 happening in the background being played out in the foreground in american foreign policy

00:19:19.460 and and other actions and people are arguing about the foreign policy instead of noticing

00:19:25.260 the like obvious political machinations right behind them and if you don't if you're if you're

00:19:30.720 keeping your eye if you're playing the ball instead of playing the man you can easily be to

00:19:35.540 see right like you but but if you're keeping your eye on the man himself then that way you're going

00:19:41.120 to understand like what's really happening and i think a lot of the battle that's happening right

00:19:45.460 now inside of mag is relatively artificial and manufactured kind of by the neocons laying out

00:19:51.420 this attempt to overthrow maga yeah exactly that's why i made for this call for dialogue for

00:19:58.000 the people inside of maga to just actually cut out uh all the people trying to artificially

00:20:04.240 instigate this attack and get maga to turn against itself and it's like okay we were all

00:20:11.020 we've all been friends before and now suddenly there's this split so why don't we just come

00:20:16.240 together talk to each other and resolve whatever the dispute is between ourselves and then we we

00:20:22.340 can just uh you know then we can turn on the neocons as you you tweeted uh you know i think

00:20:27.700 yesterday or something ourselves we we need to short circuit the artificial attacks mostly coming

00:20:33.680 like probably seated on twitter you know who knows how this is being organized but it's really obvious

00:20:38.920 There's a coordinated effort to destroy MAGA. We've seen this in the first term. What happened? Trump was convinced to drop a lot of the more vanguardist people in his administration very quickly. There were tons and tons of leaks plaguing the administration. So we saw them do that.

00:20:56.800 Now, this time, Trump came in, obviously, with a much more hardcore loyalist base who made a lot of big moves early on, and then that started slowing down.

00:21:06.840 And over the last year, it looks to me like what has happened is, okay, they came in with a tight, well-coordinated team that had no leaks and had a plan, but of course, you don't just get to walk in and do whatever you want.

00:21:18.740 the you know the neocons or the empire striking back right and now they're they're using this

00:21:23.860 different strategy that's a bit more of a slow burn to try and erode trump's base and slowly

00:21:29.800 manipulate who is influencing him and we've seen it happen with iran this is the second time now

00:21:35.740 right there was the missile strike or the i think it was uh you know the bombing of that that site

00:21:40.740 you know top gun style a few months ago and now they're doing it again and this time they're

00:21:44.960 succeeding uh a lot more effectively so instead of just outright getting him to like fire people

00:21:50.920 they're being slowly isolated i think it's really obvious what's happening and we need to uh

00:21:56.560 undermine this ourselves we can actually undermine the neocons by reunifying maga behind trump like

00:22:03.800 that is kind of the whole uh what i say hardliner position it's not like anti-trump i want trump to

00:22:10.540 be freed from the confines he's being put in. For example, I think it was in the interview with Joe

00:22:18.180 Kent, Tucker Carlson, at least on a recent interview, he mentioned how, you know, he had

00:22:23.940 been to visit Trump like three times, even once recently. And now he was told like, oh, no, don't

00:22:28.320 even bother coming to Washington, D.C. to see him. Like, you can't see him. I don't know if he name

00:22:32.420 dropped, you know, Susie Wiles there in particular, but he's now being like prevented. So it's like,

00:22:38.140 okay i mean i guess you could just not believe that but why should i not believe that you know

00:22:43.100 i'm trusting the plan because i'm seeing that donald trump is not really attacking tucker

00:22:49.540 carlson or joe kent or tulsi gabbard or anyone so and he does this frequently with people who

00:22:54.540 he views as disloyal or betrays them so it's like okay if trump is not like sending fire

00:22:59.440 this way towards the people who are outwardly against neocons i'm going to kind of assume that

00:23:05.320 this is kind of something he needs to happen or have happen but trump can't like put his finger

00:23:11.300 into it because of his position he can't he can't like make the base attack the neocons outright but

00:23:17.940 he can certainly just sort of permit it to happen and maybe then that will allow them to be free

00:23:22.420 him to be free from their influence like he was when the administration first started i'm just

00:23:27.620 kind of speculating there you know reading the tea leaves seeing what's happening but

00:23:30.960 i'm i struggle to find any real other way to interpret this when you you look at how trump

00:23:36.340 treats people he doesn't like and he is not doing that to these people who are signaling against this

00:23:43.580 war yeah he's had a few words in passing about tucker's behavior or joe kent's but you're right

00:23:51.200 to say that trump is not a guy who goes lightly especially if he thinks that someone has betrayed

00:23:55.180 him in some way we all saw how he responded to the uh death of you know uh attorney generals who

00:24:01.340 might have gone after him so um so this is not a guy who's who's normally careful with his words

00:24:07.220 about people he really hates so i think that's an astute observation to say okay trump obviously

00:24:12.740 still sees value even in people who might be disagreeing with him over this issue um now i

00:24:19.840 know a lot of people are going to get angry and say well at the end of the day trump makes these

00:24:23.160 decisions that it's his fault or not and again okay fine but like do you want to be right or do

00:24:28.480 you want to win right like so if trump is very susceptible to these suggestions then you should

00:24:34.660 be working to influence trump if he's that susceptible to it uh and and i think that that's

00:24:40.240 that very clearly the case and he's willing to listen to people even when they disagree with him

00:24:45.700 and still keep them relatively close as you were saying uh with his attitude towards some of these

00:24:50.840 people who have spoken out against his current action. So I don't think that declaring yourself

00:24:56.740 against the Iran war or skeptical of the Iran war is ultimately something that can or should

00:25:02.980 drive you out of the MAGA coalition. It clearly is something that Trump is aware is a part of

00:25:09.220 the coalition that he put together. Now, that said, I think there are very different ways to

00:25:15.240 do this so uh you you laid this out in a decent amount of detail in your piece but we have those

00:25:21.940 two positions you know where you're talking about the hardliners and the non-interventionists

00:25:26.440 or the you know however we want to label that and then the plan trusters and then outside of that i

00:25:31.500 think are the true bad actors so like on one side of the kind of kind of being pro-iran war are the

00:25:37.680 hardcore neocons like the guys who are just war for war's sake the empire is what matters or you

00:25:44.360 know we we have to defend israel no matter what those guys bad actors not useful do not help the

00:25:50.700 maga coalition then on the other side of people who are against the war we have people who are

00:25:57.820 extremely hostile to the point where it's just everything that trump does is completely owned

00:26:02.960 by israel and there's no chance of ever getting him to do anything in america's interest and it's

00:26:07.320 all over and you should just go vote for kamala harris or gavin newsom next time around because

00:26:12.980 they're maybe at least anti-israel or something and i think those people are uh obviously just

00:26:20.940 in the business of hating trump have been in the business of hating trump for a long time

00:26:25.520 have kind of staked their reputation on that and so that's kind of their solution because it's

00:26:31.340 always been their solution because you know kind of walking people out of maga has been

00:26:35.500 their uh goal now the problem comes and this is what happens on twitter as we were discussing

00:26:41.680 The problem comes when the plan trusters and the hardliners start attributing the neocon and I don't know, whatever we want to call like the just anti-Trump right when they start attributing those positions to the people inside the MAGA coalition.

00:27:01.120 So you'll see people who oppose the Iran war just staple every neocon to people who are generally trying to support Trump in his military actions.

00:27:12.320 Or you'll see people who are planned trusters start trying to staple Nick Fuentes or Candace Owens or whoever, like whatever kind of rogue actor on the right who's anti-Trump to people who are still supporting Donald Trump, the hardliners, but want to see a course correction when it comes to foreign policy and war.

00:27:34.540 And by attributing those most radical or disingenuous elements to people who are still inside the coalition and trying to do the right thing for the United States, I think this is the dynamic that is most disastrous to this attempt to kind of heal this rift.

00:27:53.020 Because we can't have any discussions on the issue anymore. It's all about friend enemy. It's all down the line. It's we have to destroy the guys on the other side because they've betrayed, you know, either the United States for Israel or they've betrayed Donald Trump to side with a bunch of third worldists like that.

00:28:11.780 These are not helpful, and you especially identified a lot of slurs that were being used, and I think that's just important for people to recognize when you start seeing those thought-terminating cliches thrown out.

00:28:24.180 Again, not just at the bad faith edges, but inside the coalition, you are creating the friend-enemy wedge.

00:28:30.880 You are actively participating in the dialectical process that will tear what's left of MAGA apart.

00:28:37.340 Exactly, and that is what needs to stop, right?

00:28:41.780 It's not that everyone in the MAGA coalition needs to agree with each other.

00:28:45.680 I mean, that's like antithetical to the idea of a coalition.

00:28:49.040 A coalition is not one thing that all agrees.

00:28:52.180 It's lots of different groups working towards a shared goal.

00:28:55.360 So the good parts, the legitimate parts of the coalition need to, to use this lame term,

00:29:03.140 agree to disagree, understand that we're actually working towards the same goal,

00:29:07.000 and correctly target select who are our actual enemies.

00:29:11.400 This is why I laid out the four camps of neocon, patriot or plan truster. They call themselves patriots, so I'll use that. Hardliners or non-interventionists, you say. And then this fourth camp called maroons, which is like, these are the people who are just outright bad actors or the ones saying like, yeah, just vote for Democrats and, you know, actually destroy the Republican Party and that sort of thing, right?

00:29:35.180 So the plan trusting side needs to recognize that there's not simply one thing to their left or right or whatever you want to say. There's actual people who are skeptical or want more from Trump and criticize him, but aren't the same group of people as, you know, let's say Candace Owens, for example, right?

00:29:58.100 It's like you have to, the Candace Owens albatross is something that gets hung around the neck of people like Tucker Carlson and pretty much any hardliner.

00:30:06.540 Like, I'm sure there were people who would hang that around my neck, right?

00:30:08.760 And it's like, look, we need to identify that there are two groups here.

00:30:12.100 There are the people with legitimate complaints, concerns, and desires for a lot more out of the administration.

00:30:17.700 And then there are people who are actually trying to sabotage it.

00:30:20.380 And then from the other side, from the hardliner or non-interventionist side, which is the one I find myself in, we have to recognize that the planned trusters or patriots are not just like all one thing with the neocons.

00:30:34.300 Even if we're seeing them, you know, promote things we associate with neoconservatism or, you know, in the interest of this, you know, sort of third temple Zionist cause that's been outlined, you know, in Tucker Carlson's show and sort of Mike Huckabee, you know, basically, you know, acted as an exemplar.

00:30:53.220 Yeah, exactly. They can have it all. So the hardliners need to recognize that that's not one thing. There are. Yes, there are neocons, but there are also many people who are plan trusters, patriots who they're they're sort of positive signaling towards Trump kind of all the time is a lot more of a public strategic positioning thing.

00:31:16.360 Right. I've talked to plan trusters in person and they're not actually like they don't think like Trump is the most perfect person on the planet.

00:31:24.860 And he's he's going to solve all the problems, even though they might sort of, you know, post more exaggeratedly in this fashion on Twitter.

00:31:31.960 And this is why I want conversations to happen, because we can actually understand that.

00:31:36.340 Look, actually, we're all we all agree here that like Trump has done a lot of good things.

00:31:40.880 We don't want to get rid of him. We don't want Democrats to win. And we don't want the neocons to come back either.

00:31:46.360 So we need to look inwards. Both of these groups need to look inwards, realize there are friends on both sides.

00:31:52.640 And this is what is going to allow us to actually cut out legitimate, real neoconservative, let's say, third wave influence that's trying to, you know, necrotically resurrect itself and, you know, somehow take the White House again with like Ted Cruz or something.

00:32:06.180 And then we have legitimate saboteurs right on the other side where they want you to vote for Democrats.

00:32:11.840 So, again, it's really important to remember the four camps, neocons, patriots, hardliners, and then, as I put it, maroons, right? And the hardliners and patriots used to be friends in the middle there, and now they're getting torn apart, probably artificially, by the neocons and by the saboteur maroons who are trying to wedge this fake friend-enemy distinction between us.

00:32:35.460 that is the exact opposite

00:32:38.820 of where we need to be identifying

00:32:40.540 the friends and the actual enemies.

00:32:44.340 Yeah, and I think the most important thing about this

00:32:47.560 is people really need to turn down the temperature

00:32:50.320 in this friendly fire moment

00:32:51.880 because we're already seeing shifts, right?

00:32:56.820 And I want to be really clear,

00:32:59.200 this is not an I told you so or anything.

00:33:01.400 I'm just acknowledging the dynamic that's occurring.

00:33:05.460 We've already seen some pretty big, I guess we could call it planned trust or generals, you know, patriot generals out there like Patrick Casey, like Scott Greer coming out and saying, actually, the war doesn't seem to be going that well.

00:33:20.340 And maybe we shouldn't be involved in this. And we were trying to kind of stand up and back Trump when we when we should have.

00:33:28.340 but ultimately it's very clear that this is not going to be achieved in the

00:33:32.500 manner that Trump had wanted.

00:33:34.060 And it's not a good idea to continue to engage in this war.

00:33:38.080 So let's go ahead and figure out how to kind of sew this one up and head

00:33:41.980 home.

00:33:42.380 So we're already seeing some of the Patriots,

00:33:45.440 some of the plan trusters say,

00:33:47.200 look,

00:33:47.700 okay,

00:33:47.980 we stuck with Trump as long as we could on this one,

00:33:50.260 but it's in that,

00:33:51.760 that was our,

00:33:52.660 you know,

00:33:52.800 we're following that leadership,

00:33:53.960 but ultimately we need to do what's best for the country.

00:33:57.440 it's clear that this is not going to help us in the midterms if it continues down this road

00:34:01.240 and so we need to see that shift so the fact that we're already seeing that movement means you need

00:34:08.100 to leave space you know i said this online yesterday and like i guess people took it badly

00:34:13.100 but i don't understand why like you need to leave space for people to come back into the coalition

00:34:17.260 and not try to punish people and not try to hurt people not try to hold grudges like you just need

00:34:23.120 to allow people to come together and agree again so if you know some guys on the on the patriot

00:34:28.900 side are recognizing all right we did what we could but obviously like this is not going well

00:34:34.380 and it's time for us to move on and get back to domestic issues if they're coming over and they're

00:34:39.000 saying that great let's let's do that let's let's drive MAGA back in that direction let's focus on

00:34:44.880 our real enemies which are obviously neocons who are trying to keep us in this war we see people

00:34:52.460 like uh ben shapiro laying out how we just need to get comfortable with being there for months and

00:35:00.080 what what you you know anti-patriotic anti-semite you don't want to be at war in the middle east on

00:35:06.420 the behest of israel for the next three years you know like like like as you say the the plan

00:35:12.920 trusters they're trained they're doing their best to hold on there but like they're not idiots when

00:35:17.300 they see guys like ben shapiro come out and say that stuff they see the writing on the wall too

00:35:21.300 and they're starting to adjust there so let that happen stop trying to make people the your enemy

00:35:28.140 and instead find ways to you know stitch the coalition back together and start moving forward

00:35:33.420 because the real danger at this point is that the actual MAGA coalition gets outflanked by the

00:35:39.380 neocons through their manipulation of media and through their manipulation of the institutions

00:35:44.900 and then we're really up a creek because now maga then is truly dead it's truly been skin suited

00:35:52.080 and it is and we have no real political vehicle for uh any right-wing objectives in the united

00:35:59.360 states yeah and uh you know we're all children of gamer gate here and one of the things i wonder is

00:36:05.620 like don't people play strategy games like hearts of iron and total war it's like what happens when

00:36:10.740 you like declare war and attack literally everyone who's not in your specific faction uh you get like

00:36:16.760 destroyed by other factions who are more powerful and have more resources uh like neocons when you

00:36:22.520 can't form effective alliances with like your literal neighbors the patriots and hardliners

00:36:26.660 are neighbors with one another uh you know why don't we put some genuine beliefs from like the

00:36:33.100 the non-interventionist or hardliner perspective on the table because i think that's what sort of

00:36:36.800 clears this up, right? So, like, from my perspective, people are like, well, everything's

00:36:41.080 great, you know, or not everything's great, but things are going really well. Trump's done a lot

00:36:44.340 of deportations, right? You know, let's say 3 million looks like the official statistics. It's

00:36:48.880 a lot of, you know, self-deportations and then, like, 600K, you know, physical ones, let's say,

00:36:55.460 with ICE. That's good, right? That's like, what is the official statistic? There's, like, 11 million

00:37:00.400 illegal immigrants in the country. I think there's more. Whatever. Let's go with the official

00:37:04.560 statistic, Trump has deported like 30% of the illegals. I can't complain about that. But what

00:37:10.460 I'm looking at is 30% of his term is over. So it's like, okay, so what, what does the

00:37:18.460 administration need to do? Everything it does should really be oriented towards getting it

00:37:22.880 more power. How do you get more power? You deport your enemy's voters, which is what he's doing,

00:37:27.900 right and you need national voter id and election integrity laws the save act that's step one okay

00:37:36.480 right step one is deport your opponent's voters and also secure the elections you know coming at

00:37:44.260 it from the other angle against any residual um you know imported voters right that's like step

00:37:50.080 one to securing more power you know we're 30 percent of the way through this administration

00:37:54.580 They haven't completed step one yet. So when people sort of, people complain about this, it's not that like, oh, I'm saying they're doing nothing. It's, you know, sometimes people do exaggerate and say the administration's doing nothing.

00:38:09.940 But what that means is not that they're literally doing nothing. It's that meaningful progress toward like even step one towards securing this coalition's position in 2028 has not even been completed yet.

00:38:23.080 And that's why people get, you know, I guess hysterical sometimes, because again, we're looking at the possibility of like podcasters going to jail. Again, I referenced J6. They will put people in jail if they can. They love doing it and they want to hurt you. This is not like some made up thing. Right. And we've seen lawfare used against people like Douglas Mackey and stuff, too.

00:38:43.500 So this is a real, real concerns here that people like us have like, hey, I'd really like the Trump administration to do a lot more here because the pace here is not sufficient for like a a reset of our government.

00:38:58.680 Yeah, I've communicated this with people in the administration who said, hey, we've done so much. Why are you so negative on our accomplishments? And my point has been, no, you guys have great accomplishments. Like, you are easily the best Republican presidential administration of my lifetime. Like, it's not even close.

00:39:22.380 but that said your wins while basically historic are also wildly insufficient because things have

00:39:31.280 gotten so bad and we are at such an existential moment in our politics that if you do not fix the

00:39:37.780 entire system relatively quickly things are going to get really bad really fast and that's a super

00:39:44.280 frustrating thing to hear when you're like securing some of the biggest wins that conservatives or

00:39:49.580 right-wingers have had in american politics in a long time but even when you're doing that it's

00:39:54.480 just not enough like it the wins are impressive important serious and entirely insufficient and

00:40:01.940 that's the message that i think is important for the administration to hear it's not that they're

00:40:07.780 you're doing the worst job and we can't believe and you're just doing nothing and i think that's

00:40:12.340 also as you say you know kind of the dynamic that is also often heard by the plan trusters by the

00:40:18.260 patriots is oh well you're just saying that trump was just doing nothing and it would just be better

00:40:22.960 off if we had gavin newsom's like no i'm not one of these saboteurs i'm not one of these maroons

00:40:27.720 but at the end of the day i'm also not going to sit here and pretend like we're doing enough right

00:40:31.860 now because as impressive as these gains have been i've been you know we we heard okay give

00:40:37.660 them time give them time but as you say we're year in and yeah i mean 11 million illegals no i mean

00:40:43.360 30 million right maybe 40 million at least and uh and so we're just way behind on what needs to get

00:40:52.460 done again i am incredibly sympathetic that they are climbing an absolute mountain on this one

00:40:57.740 and that they are fighting all of these people internally as well and so there's just this

00:41:02.700 massive battle going on but at the same time there's no points for like trying like there's

00:41:09.620 no participation you know uh ribbon in this one they'll send you to jail no matter how hard you

00:41:15.080 tried like you know c plus does not get it done on this report card you've got to ace it every

00:41:20.680 single time at this point and that's really difficult because again i know these people

00:41:25.120 many of them are working hard they're trying to get this done but it's just not sufficient

00:41:29.980 that doesn't mean i'm jumping off the bandwagon that doesn't mean i'm saying well now just i'll

00:41:34.700 just vote for the democrats and that'll at least be better we'll get some accelerationism going on

00:41:39.280 here in the worst possible sense uh but but we we have to keep that reasonable pace we have to be

00:41:47.440 able to say they're doing good things but it's not enough without becoming this you know creating

00:41:52.980 this dynamic where it's well they're doing nothing or you can never ask any questions because the

00:41:58.200 trump administration has got it locked down and there's just no issue at all no that's just not

00:42:03.260 the case and i don't think it's useful to pretend it's the case i don't think it's useful to push

00:42:07.480 people into that binary and that's what i've seen there are specific actors and i'm trying not to be

00:42:13.580 mean to anybody here because the point has been resolution here but i am seeing and i have

00:42:19.920 specifically called out multiple times when i see people using language that is very obviously meant

00:42:25.420 to shove people into each one of these camps where they are lying about what people are saying or

00:42:30.180 manipulating what people are saying i saw you taking a screenshot of you know some twitter

00:42:34.820 interactions to that effect as well where like there's just an obvious lie happening with the

00:42:39.980 clear intention of moving people into these extreme camps and tearing MAGA apart and I don't know

00:42:45.980 what motivates people to do this if it's just the online dynamic by itself if there are nefarious

00:42:51.960 actors if people think that they're going to gain some level of you know status in the movement by

00:42:57.300 taking down someone else but now is just not the time like we do not have time for this things

00:43:02.620 truly are at a very critical moment and we cannot play games uh like this the status games are not

00:43:09.260 worth it in this moment no i mean some of that is a phenomenon i guess i'll call like the trump

00:43:15.200 defense force where like people will take it upon themselves like vociferously defend trump and

00:43:20.680 attack people who you know counter signal or complain about trump and it's like look guys

00:43:25.820 like trump doesn't need you to like go to bat for him on like twitter against other people in the

00:43:30.000 coalition or anywhere else. Trump is fine in relation to what's happening in these micro

00:43:37.360 disputes on Twitter. You don't have to take up his mantle and defend his honor against people

00:43:44.060 on his behalf. You can hash out differences, but I don't see the need to attack people who

00:43:50.260 are offering legitimate criticisms of Trump. I should also say that these people were elected

00:43:54.960 to office, it's like, yeah, you can complain about being attacked. Yes, it sucks to get

00:43:59.480 attacked on Twitter or social media or YouTube, whatever. People say mean things about you

00:44:03.700 everywhere. I get it. That sucks. But if you're elected, if you're Trump, J.D. Vance, or anyone

00:44:08.640 who took a job in his administration, you volunteered to be a part of this historic

00:44:13.540 and highly volatile, highly toxic, inflammatory moment in American history where the country

00:44:18.720 may undergo a reset, a very serious regime change within the U.S., right? You volunteered to be in

00:44:25.420 this position. So, you know, I've, you know, both of us, I'm sure, have made sacrifices as well for

00:44:31.180 this thing, you know, and yeah, I can complain about it sometimes, but ultimately, you kind of

00:44:35.700 have to just take it on the chin. Everyone on both sides of this and of the administration

00:44:39.880 has to just take these things on the chin, and it's because it's only going to get harder from

00:44:44.680 here uh secondarily um there's this issue you mentioned uh well we were talking about deportations

00:44:51.900 right and just to sort of hammer on this point we've kind of ended up in this like dialectic

00:44:56.320 cul-de-sac of arguing over how many deportations are actually happening is it more spectacle or

00:45:02.100 you know did really three million leave you know whatever but here's the thing this was never just

00:45:07.700 about deporting illegal immigrants that's like one part of trump's platform what about birthright

00:45:12.740 citizenship? What about all of the former illegals who are now legal who are still here? Talk about

00:45:18.240 11 million officially illegal immigrants. Think about how many legal immigrants from previous

00:45:24.580 programs have been legalized and just sort of handed American citizenship. I mean, we might be

00:45:29.700 talking north of 50 million people here that need to be deported. We already know that 50 million

00:45:35.900 people currently have legal status to enter the united states so so uh just you know forget the

00:45:42.900 illegals we know that i think it's like 55 million people right now have a visa of some kind in the

00:45:49.620 united states and because of the stat like you say birthright citizenship that means that any one of

00:45:54.940 those people who happens to be traveling into the united states or currently is in the united states

00:45:58.980 when they have a kid there that's now an american citizen and so uh you know the the fact that the

00:46:05.180 trump administration is challenging birthright citizenship is uh you know adjusting h1b numbers

00:46:11.600 again not sufficient not enough but in ways that simply would never have happened under any other

00:46:16.980 uh administration these are critical things and and again we can be appreciative that that is

00:46:23.680 happening and that we have a political vehicle to make that happen while understanding that is still

00:46:29.820 drastically not even close to what needs to get done yet and we have to take it seriously

00:46:34.920 Yeah, and don't tell me it's impossible. Oh, it's too many. It could never be done. We could never, you know, change the face of the country like that. I mean, who are we kidding here? We all saw what happened during the, you know, your ad read at the beginning, right? The whole pandemic, we saw the executive branches completely change the face of the country on a whim.

00:46:53.500 So don't tell me this is impossible. We know it is possible. We know this can be done. It is a matter of will and risk. It is extremely high risk to be involved in this sort of right wing politics right now. I respect the people in the administration from the president downward who are taking it upon themselves to do this.

00:47:12.600 But ultimately, this is what must be done. And you put yourself you volunteer to be elected to this position, you must be held to the needs of the position. That is the meaning of being a statesman. And the duty you have as an elected official to the American people, you know, whether or not you like the feedback you're getting, there is a duty to save this country upon all of us. And we all need to work together.

00:47:35.740 The good people and not the neocons or not the saboteurs need to mend these differences fast so that we can work together towards this and increase the pace.

00:47:45.500 Because the whole immigration issue, that's just like one issue.

00:47:53.000 That's just like sort of the major like this is the main issue you need to assault to like secure power.

00:47:58.600 This is the castle you need to take to secure your power going forward.

00:48:01.660 let alone all of the other major problems um just in terms of you know enemy radical organizations

00:48:09.700 like antifa and such and you know the failure to really crack down on that and you know leftist

00:48:15.200 networks in general it's like these are and this even gets aside just that like general welfare of

00:48:20.920 the country i'm willing to even put general welfare on hold okay gas prices up property

00:48:25.740 prices are way up not because of trump this has been happening for like decades it's like

00:48:29.500 inflation is out of control,

00:48:31.860 debt's out of control, groceries are expensive

00:48:33.660 now. Fine, let's put all that aside.

00:48:36.340 You have to at least

00:48:38.000 win

00:48:39.020 total victory, basically, on the immigration

00:48:41.700 issue by 2028,

00:48:43.760 or you're not going to have

00:48:45.780 the next presidency and the next presidency

00:48:47.700 after that and the Congresses after

00:48:49.700 that and the state legislatures and parties

00:48:51.540 after that to actually

00:48:53.340 complete the revolution, right?

00:48:56.980 You are on the

00:48:59.320 precipice of losing the ability to win elections with heritage americans in the united states

00:49:06.720 you are moving so many foreigners into the united states and you are so radically shifting the

00:49:11.560 demographics on purpose that the idea that you could democratically elect someone who would

00:49:18.280 take serious action in the interest of the current american population is becoming more and more

00:49:24.300 distant and that clock is ticking very quickly so the ability to as you say capture that castle

00:49:30.980 shut down the illegals and the legal immigration shift the way that uh demographics are moving in

00:49:37.660 the united states and very importantly then the politics that flows from them this is the time

00:49:43.400 like this this is it this is the frame and it's a it's probably a multi-presidential operation

00:49:49.500 you're going to need trump to get most of it done but you're then going to need someone like vance

00:49:53.900 to follow it up that just has to happen i know a lot of people are saying well it's just not

00:49:59.020 going to happen you might be right about that but does that doomerism help you here right like what

00:50:05.060 is what is the goal right like ultimately if we want to win we need some level of political power

00:50:11.520 and right now we have at least one vehicle where we could have some level of political power now

00:50:18.380 maybe it's not going to work out but if you don't use it if you don't try to find the way forward

00:50:24.120 then you just are saying i'm powerless and i'm going to be a victim and that's it okay then go

00:50:31.960 cry in the corner i guess but it's not helpful it doesn't solve any of these problems and as

00:50:37.520 we both have been very vocal about you know the iran war and the fact that we're opposed to it

00:50:43.160 We think that this is a huge mistake that is going to sideline a lot of the domestic agenda, make it very difficult to to get these things done.

00:50:52.020 The understanding, you hope, from planned trusters, from patriots, is the only reason we're saying that is our priorities remain the same, that our priorities are deportations.

00:51:02.140 They are the adjustment of birthright citizenship.

00:51:04.560 They are eschewing foreign influence and everything else that's involved with that.

00:51:08.060 And Iran really just serves as a reinforcement that we can't get the domestic priorities done because the foreign influence is so crippling that it's impossible to focus on saving the country.

00:51:21.640 And as more and more of the, you know, the patriots recognize that the war is not going well and is not going to be, you know, this this quick thing that we're in and out of and is going to have really negative impacts on domestic agenda and the election.

00:51:36.180 I think a lot of this tension will resolve itself. It'll become clear that there's one singular proper course of action moving forward. The question is, do we shred all of our coalitional goodwill on our journey to that conclusion? And my point is just, no, we should not do that. We're all going to end up in the same place here on this.

00:51:57.800 And so rather than try to burn each other down on the way to arriving at that consensus, can we just cool out and just chill out with trying to divide things as aggressively as possible and recognize that there are other more nefarious forces that I think are acting from outside on the coalition trying to produce this outcome?

00:52:21.020 yeah um why don't we put another thing on the table like this rhetoric you know destroy the

00:52:27.420 gop this is a this is a common refrain you might hear from the hardliner side right people say the

00:52:32.460 gop must be destroyed and then of course the patriot side is like okay well you're just like

00:52:37.040 these people who want to like elect democrats but you know trump uses rhetoric people use rhetoric

00:52:41.840 when when people on like the hardline side say destroy the gop what they mean is like drain the

00:52:48.020 swamp this just means drain the swamp it doesn't mean like we actually want to dismantle the

00:52:52.440 republican party and make democrats win forever no it's like there has to be some understanding

00:52:56.520 here within the coalition that both sides um who i say sides i don't even like that term because

00:53:02.180 we're on the same side this is this is actually what we need to fix is the fact that i can say

00:53:06.100 both sides right both sides um agree with this basically it's like yes drain the swamp that's

00:53:12.860 all destroy the GOP means what we want are the people who remain in the Republican Party,

00:53:18.960 apparently most of the elected congressmen and senators who have no intention on implementing

00:53:24.820 Trump's plan and want to sandbag him, you know, enemies of Trump, frankly, like Lindsey Graham,

00:53:31.740 that guy is not a friend of MAGA, guys, right? When we say destroy the GOP, it means these guys

00:53:37.580 should not be in office, right? It doesn't mean the party should be destroyed at all. That's not

00:53:41.760 what it means i wrote in the article uh actually mistakenly said the you know the gop is the only

00:53:46.900 mechanism for heritage americans to you know secure their like political future or something

00:53:51.580 i meant like i changed that later to and you know something like a very important one because

00:53:57.300 obviously there are many other ways for heritage americans to you know try and secure their futures

00:54:02.300 but in strictly political terms it's like yeah the gop is the only game in town

00:54:07.540 especially at the state level you know the gop is not uh congruent to the democrats right the

00:54:15.300 democrats are a real like ruling party whereas the gop is a lot more like 50 different parties

00:54:20.700 in 50 states that occasionally uh every four years or every you know two years for congress

00:54:27.260 has like a come together moment for federal elections but the if you when you actually

00:54:32.360 look at the GOP, the state parties are a lot more like their own independent political machines

00:54:38.440 than the way the Democrats want to. And that is a disadvantage that our side has at the national

00:54:43.740 level. And that is why at the national level, the GOP can't just walk in with Trump at the head and

00:54:49.320 just like win, because that's not how things work at the national level. I really view the national

00:54:55.480 politics as totally separate. If I say like the GOP must be destroyed, I'm just talking about

00:55:00.000 the DC swamp GOP. I'm not talking about your local party that you might be doing good things

00:55:05.260 for your state or whatever, right? So this sort of, these rhetorical points need to kind of be

00:55:11.980 understood. And this is why dialogue is necessary. You know, same thing for the other side. I totally

00:55:17.320 understand that people are not like slavishly loyal to Donald Trump or something, right? Even

00:55:21.780 if they like use rhetoric that might make you lead you to that conclusion, that's not actually

00:55:26.480 what's going on in their heads it is a it is a you know uh media positioning to like you know

00:55:32.760 potentially increase you know their ability to reach out to the trump administration on podcasts

00:55:37.700 or whatever but being very friendly to it totally totally cool with that i don't want people to stop

00:55:42.540 doing that you know my friend king pilled has like a great plan trust her podcast and yeah just do

00:55:49.140 that there's no you don't have to stop doing that and i think the i would like to see patriots also

00:55:54.340 take the same approach to the hardliners where it's like you can do your thing you can be a lot

00:56:00.040 more critical of the trump administration or just simply demand more i don't even view like what

00:56:04.360 we're talking about here is like being critical it's just saying we need a lot more of this right

00:56:08.900 yeah that needs to be okay and separate it out from the saboteurs again not everyone who is

00:56:16.420 you know kind of talking about what we're talking about here is like trying to sabotage the

00:56:20.500 administration and then all the people who are very on board with like everything the administration

00:56:25.600 is doing they're not neocons guys we have to recognize that that they i mean they were we

00:56:32.200 were they were friends like six months ago a year ago the whole coalition was like all together so

00:56:38.040 what happened here why are we not on the same page anymore i view this as an intentional attack by

00:56:43.340 mainly the neoconservative right to divide maga because if there's one thing we know

00:56:48.780 It's that they want MAGA destroyed. Everyone wants MAGA destroyed so that, you know, the Bushes can retake the Republican Party and everything can just go back to the way it was before. And we have this fake approved opposition party and everything just gets worse forever.

00:57:02.380 yeah i i really i really need people to understand what you're saying here because it is so important

00:57:08.940 and it's kind of amazing that people are watching what's happening now and not recognizing this

00:57:13.720 like this is a neocon op like you are being uh directly manipulated by people who have been

00:57:21.940 sitting in the institutions waiting for this moment to turn you against each other like that's

00:57:27.900 what's happening very obviously and so everybody needs to stop and realize who the real enemies

00:57:34.520 are in this scenario sorry but ted cruz and lindsey graham and you know mike huckabee

00:57:42.680 they're the problem like the the these people and the people behind them they're the nefarious

00:57:48.580 actors inside the republican party and they need to go again i have no love for the republican

00:57:54.380 party i am one of these people who says the republican party needs to be destroyed but as

00:57:58.480 you say i still recognize that we have to skin suit the party like there's just whether we like

00:58:03.280 it or not the american political system as long as it remains a you know democracy to the extent

00:58:09.260 that it is you can't we're not the uk you can't just like spin up a new political party like the

00:58:15.940 way our voting works you're going to have two parties they're going to be the two established

00:58:20.280 parties unless you literally have you know the last time we got a new political party was the

00:58:25.280 civil war like last time we got a new uh real substantive national political party was the

00:58:32.380 republicans and that's only because the democratic party like uh you know the different parties like

00:58:37.560 split themselves into into like democrats split themselves in two and you have like the wigs and

00:58:42.160 everything going on like that's the only reason we ended up with a new party and literally it took

00:58:47.720 a civil war for that to happen so unless your plan is to just hang out until a full-blown civil war

00:58:54.960 spawns a new republican party a new new version of a right-wing party then that's the one you've

00:59:00.240 got now it's still full of incredibly corrupt people that have to go but we should be focusing

00:59:06.600 on the ones that actually need to go which are the neoconservatives like they are the problem

00:59:10.580 and they are the ones that are ultimately driving a lot of this discourse but that said

00:59:15.660 we're starting to build up some super chats here so let's get to those before uh anything else

00:59:22.120 obviously people should go and read your piece over at the old glory club is there anything you

00:59:26.320 want to direct them to before we go to the questions of the people uh yeah you can go to

00:59:31.140 www.theoldgloryclub.com if you want to uh you know learn about the org and uh you know there's a link

00:59:37.860 to the sub stack there uh if you want to get to it and uh you know uh some uh shows we do as well

00:59:43.580 Pony Express Radio. I host American Spirits every Monday. Right now I'm hosting with George

00:59:48.840 Bagby and really diving into, you know, the history of America, going to primary source

00:59:53.780 documents. We just covered the Jefferson versus Hamilton central bank debate. So this is really

00:59:59.560 good stuff if you're interested in, you know, getting to the roots of American history rather

01:00:05.520 than just sort of talking about these things in the ether. You can really dive into it with us

01:00:10.160 on that show on mondays excellent let's go to the comments philosophical thirst worm says it's hard

01:00:18.460 to remain energized if every single bit of political capital is immediately stolen and sapped

01:00:22.800 by uh mega my local candidates i canvass for wasted 90 of their time on foreign policy

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01:01:02.720 in a local role look man i am incredibly sympathetic to this right like obviously

01:01:09.380 if you paid any attention to my show in the last uh you know few months you recognize uh that i

01:01:16.060 recognize this problem right um and i think that's my hope is that once people see how we entered

01:01:26.900 into this war and the motivations behind it which are very clearly israel wanted to start a war

01:01:33.560 and they see that ultimately this is not good for the u.s uh that that worm will turn but the

01:01:39.780 reality the political realities on the ground right now is that there's still a large amount

01:01:44.140 of engagement on the issue of israel in the united states and a lot of support among a lot of

01:01:48.920 different people for that position. And so I am extremely angry that the whole domestic agenda

01:01:57.400 has basically been hijacked by the fact that Israel wanted to go start a war. Like I'm with

01:02:03.300 you a hundred percent, but we have to move around that, right? Like there's just, that's just the

01:02:08.180 reality we're in at the moment. And I'm more than happy to point out that that's why we're in the

01:02:13.000 war i'm not shy or hesitant about that i have zero problem expressing my anger at the fact that

01:02:19.300 that's the case and that's why i've taken so many hits from a lot of people who label themselves as

01:02:24.460 plan trusters or or patriots on this issue but that has not made me cow it on on saying that

01:02:30.560 that is a huge problem all that said i still want my country to win and so i've got to figure out

01:02:35.980 how to maneuver around this fact at the moment i don't like it i don't like that it's a huge part

01:02:40.340 of our political discourse but obviously it's not going anywhere and no efforts to to remove it have

01:02:46.040 have worked so we've just got to deal with that fact life of brian io6 says i applaud uh oren's

01:02:54.320 consistency he said once that if trump blows it the move is to hunker down and take uh care of

01:02:59.360 your bag well trump's blown it and that's what oren is clearly doing at the blades uh i mean i

01:03:05.040 guess man uh there's always this desire to say that everyone's bought and paid for and is entirely

01:03:11.360 motivated by money uh if you look at my content recently um it's not exactly been pro uh you know

01:03:19.180 the current actions uh i literally had tucker carlson on who is considered incredibly toxic

01:03:25.000 to large swaths of uh kind of uh you know trump's base at the moment i mean just go check out the

01:03:30.860 comments when the blaze announced me having tucker carlson on but if you need to believe that i'm

01:03:35.540 just doing it for uh the blaze paycheck then you know whatever you need to tell yourself it's a lot

01:03:39.780 easier than like you going out and doing something or like actually having to argue the position if

01:03:44.580 that's what you need to believe despite all the evidence then by all means uh don't let me rob

01:03:49.720 you of that delusion uh cyber chud said if you can be if they can be moved to america surely they

01:03:57.840 can be moved from america probably even on the same plane they came in and yeah man that's uh

01:04:02.420 that's obviously the ideal here uh i mean a large amount of what we're seeing at the moment

01:04:07.260 is simply that trump is respecting the courts and uh i don't think you should do that but i believe

01:04:13.440 in humane deportations and i'm not sure that uh putting people on you know american uh planes

01:04:20.300 right now is actually humane given our personal experience with air travel recently uh that could

01:04:27.580 be considered a form of torture in the geneva convention uh sheriff 1776 says what's the game

01:04:36.600 plan if scotus holds up birthright citizenship seems like a pivotal issue i mean it's huge and

01:04:40.800 the the short answer is they'll probably uphold birthright citizenship i hope they don't i think

01:04:47.080 it would be foolish i think a a in any kind of actual historical context uh for the reading of

01:04:54.280 the 14th Amendment reveals that it is not meant to grant birthright citizenship, but you have to

01:04:59.180 face the reality that the Supreme Court will likely, at least the first time it hears it,

01:05:03.720 turn down this reinterpretation of the 14th Amendment. That's going to be disheartening,

01:05:10.060 but what else did you expect from the Supreme Court, right? There's always the outside chance

01:05:15.000 that they will side with the Trump administration. And to be clear, no other administration would

01:05:19.300 have had the guts to ever put this out, but it is an absolutely pivotal issue. And if we don't

01:05:23.540 adjust the 14th amendment the u.s is going to destroy itself like that's just i think ultimately

01:05:28.320 the truth and so we've got to get this done now i'm a political realist i'm not going to lie to

01:05:33.860 you about the chances of victory here but like ultimately you sometimes you just got to win

01:05:39.540 right like this is this is kind of the classic analysis by paralysis are you probably going to

01:05:45.820 win this thing no but everybody who's ever had a true victory went one against the odds like that's

01:05:53.020 just how these things work you do your best to lock in your chances and then you go for it right

01:05:58.000 that that's all there is to do it so what is the plan if they uphold birthright citizenship

01:06:02.700 to continue to try to do deportations and bring the case back before the court and try to get

01:06:10.320 even more right-wing people on the court again that could be a long slog it could it could be

01:06:15.900 a complete failure but the other option is the country tears itself apart so i guess if that's

01:06:21.080 the black pill you want to take you start planning for that one me i'm gonna keep you know trying to

01:06:26.060 find victory while we can dan says i need to address the reason why the plan wasn't just the

01:06:34.720 domestic agenda or this keeps happening you're of course right man you're you're of course absolutely

01:06:39.140 right and part of look there's a possibility that marco rubio walked out and announced that

01:06:48.180 we went to war because Israel said it was time to go to war on accident,

01:06:52.520 but I don't believe that. Do you believe it? You know,

01:06:57.300 like I think there is a recognition of the problem here at some level that said

01:07:03.840 the only way that people really get exposed to how big of a problem this is,

01:07:09.240 is our events like this. And so if nothing else,

01:07:12.880 you should see this event as a opportunity to make it clear the problems

01:07:18.060 of foreign entanglements the problems of these alliances that were warned about by our founding

01:07:24.480 fathers i think the line of argument here that wins you this discussion even with the boomers

01:07:30.200 even with people who are fox news viewers even with people who are inherently kind of dispensationalist

01:07:35.520 or pro israel in some way is to say let's just go to the founders what did george washington say

01:07:42.260 how should we be behaving because those are appeals they can't override without making

01:07:46.600 themselves look foolish he also says need to address the reason oh looks like it's the same

01:07:53.640 question trice okay yeah i think it's the same question i said well thank you dan i really

01:07:57.500 appreciate you stopping by always enjoy the lotus eaters content hail to the podcast of the lotus

01:08:03.040 eaters indeed indeed uh shaky silver says problem with giving critiques to trump is that he and his

01:08:09.740 swampy advisors have surrounded with brown nosing toadies that lie and do not contradict him yes

01:08:15.440 That is a very dangerous situation, but that's also why you don't want to become those people

01:08:20.260 too, because the desire to become obsequious so that you can have influence means you have

01:08:26.100 not, right?

01:08:26.980 So I have heard this argument that like, well, the reason Lindsey Graham has Trump's ear

01:08:31.280 and the reason you don't is Lindsey Graham tells him everything he wants to hear.

01:08:35.500 Okay, well, that's great.

01:08:36.820 But Lindsey Graham also, by doing so, leads him into terrible positions.

01:08:41.840 So we can't play Lindsey Graham's game the way that Lindsey Graham plays it.

01:08:45.440 Like, there's just no way we can just do that. Right. So we have to have some level of criticism. I think, as Sheryl Wayne pointed out, the fact that Trump has not gone part of the paint against guys like Joe Kent and Tucker Carlson, when he really could have belies that actually Trump will listen to criticism and won't become completely rejecting you as long as you don't take things too far.

01:09:06.820 So maybe don't run around saying Donald Trump is trying to destroy America, but also don't run around and say Donald Trump is perfect. Perhaps there's a happy medium somewhere.

01:09:19.060 Elijah Tymon says, if Lindsey Graham is a bad actor, should we still vote for him and people like him when they win the Republican primary? Well, Lindsey Graham is going to win in South Carolina if he wins his primary, no matter what. So that's not a problem that you need to address.

01:09:34.480 this is really important um you need to break yourself this is an old mug mold bug thing you

01:09:40.880 need to break yourself as the idea of your vote is some kind of sacred support for your principles

01:09:47.640 no it's a tactical political tool at best and usually it's even useless in that way uh if you

01:09:54.180 get enough people together voting for something maybe you could primary lindsey graham and then

01:09:58.040 your vote is useful uh but your vote is not some like sacred element totem that you hand over and

01:10:03.700 bless the politician and now you're lashed to them for eternity no that's not the case so if

01:10:09.920 lindsey graham's already going to win in south carolina because he wins his primary and you

01:10:13.760 don't want to vote for him because you find him uh vile like i do then don't vote for him it's

01:10:18.000 fine like you're not changing anything but if you're in a a neck and neck race between a republican

01:10:24.200 who isn't perfect but is like not going to open your borders and a democrat who's absolutely

01:10:29.760 going to open your borders and throw you in jail maybe vote the republican this this hits on an

01:10:35.760 important issue real quick that we didn't hit on which is that the sort of messaging we do uh on

01:10:41.500 podcast is not really aimed down towards like the general base of american voters it's a lot more

01:10:47.780 aimed upwards right towards the administration so shows like this uh pretty much any show on

01:10:53.420 the internet is just not going to like destroy your local republican party or trump's chances

01:10:59.000 in the midterms or or something like that it's like you know i've heard you mentioned on the

01:11:03.640 show before that you know the white house got in touch with you like for for this thing you

01:11:08.200 podcasted on um i think it was uh whatever but the um uh the uh civil rights division

01:11:16.720 yes so your relations so okay someone's listening right that's what to me that's what we're doing

01:11:23.580 here is we're we're trying to speak to the actual administration so you know a lot of there's a lot

01:11:29.820 of concern on the uh in in the sort of patriot versus hardliner discourse that hey this the

01:11:36.740 rhetoric you're putting forward is going to like undermine the midterms or something it's like

01:11:40.120 i i don't think we can like affect the midterms in that way i think i think five i think five or

01:11:45.300 six dollar gasoline is going to have much more impact on the midterms than my podcast yeah i

01:11:49.320 I think we can do our best to transmit ideas upwards to whoever in government is listening to try and help them understand what needs to be done.

01:11:58.900 We're not going to, like, sabotage the elections, right?

01:12:01.500 This is not going to happen from a podcast.

01:12:06.180 MK Max says, if we understand the existential place we find ourselves, the demographic depends, the GOP, etc.

01:12:12.740 Why not form a party for heritage Americans at this point?

01:12:14.880 I'm not going to get easier to do so.

01:12:16.660 uh again i guess this is probably after i've already made these comments but this is just

01:12:22.700 not how the american political system works you're way better off taking over a current party

01:12:29.080 than you are trying to build a new one from scratch and literally all we have is evidence

01:12:34.940 and data showing this to be the case before i was ever politically uh you know involved on a

01:12:41.340 national level i would teach my students in american civics why third parties always lose

01:12:47.020 like before i had i was doing any kind of you know tactical analysis for uh you know cable news

01:12:52.640 stations or political parties or anything i was just teaching you know the high schoolers that

01:12:58.300 this doesn't work and it doesn't start doing working now because we don't like the way that

01:13:03.820 something was done under the republican party again i have nothing but contempt for the vast

01:13:09.600 majority of establishment conservatives and the republican party but this is just yeah this is

01:13:15.700 just asking well if we just charge two more machine gun nests surely we'll have this right

01:13:20.420 it's like no you need a real plan and this is just not a real plan it feels good it feels good

01:13:26.160 to say let's do something let's charge a machine gun nest but i'm fine with action but we need to

01:13:31.340 have productive action it's just way easier to take over your local gop and start churning out

01:13:37.860 candidates that help heritage americans than it is to run around and try to form a new party it

01:13:42.660 just is and i think anyone who's in any way politically sensible is going to tell you that

01:13:47.580 wild speaker says enough with the candace jacketing enough with the zio jacketing yes

01:13:53.220 exactly stop stop trying to put people in these camps because it makes it easier to dismiss them

01:13:58.180 marcos says according to uh laura to larry loomer uh orin how would we pronounce that

01:14:06.800 mcatarin tire i don't yeah but anyway i see what you're saying i don't know if she's actually

01:14:14.080 running around calling me there that i i blocked her at this point she's so terrible

01:14:18.040 uh jeremy kearns says since we run based on popular software we should never trust

01:14:24.380 only chimp since he's swayed by popular opinion again my my strategy has always been stay inside

01:14:31.720 the tent don't leave the tent so you have maximum influence but then use that influence so i've

01:14:38.160 always said you know trust the plan in the sense that you're going to stay on the train so you can

01:14:42.340 have the influence but don't trust but you know still let them know when something is wrong let

01:14:47.560 them know what you want so that they know what it takes to keep you in the tent that that's your

01:14:52.760 only power in that scenario is being able to negotiate for things you want inside the tent

01:14:59.940 Once you leave the tent, you have zero power. So you need to understand that dynamic.

01:15:04.580 This is a really important point, actually, on how coalitions work, how like, you know, basically, if you're a minority in a coalition, which obviously you are, I am, we're sort of a minority, non interventionist group, if you will, right?

01:15:20.360 that's obviously not the major part of the coalition but if you're a minority in a coalition

01:15:24.720 if you simply signal that you're going to support the party no matter what and not criticize them

01:15:33.460 you give up all of your leverage you cannot ever do that if you're a minority party to a coalition

01:15:39.880 if you want to see this look at what happened to the uh you know christian right for most of

01:15:47.600 republican political history right they were promised movement on abortion for decades and

01:15:53.020 decades and decades and nothing happened because ultimately the republicans knew that they didn't

01:15:58.000 need to deliver anything except empty promises on them right right and that's not saying oh just go

01:16:03.800 vote for democrats if they don't do what you want but you can't just blindly give up all of your

01:16:09.540 leverage by just agreeing to what the coalition does no matter what you have to insist that you

01:16:15.180 be given patronage but you also can't just blow up all your influence by leaving the coalition

01:16:20.700 and right because if you do that then you have you're homeless like the democrats aren't going

01:16:24.680 to take you in and you're not going to start another political party like i'm sorry that is

01:16:28.240 not going to happen libertarians like what like when did everyone just turn into a libertarian

01:16:33.560 like what happened i thought we had some grasp of like we need real political solutions now i'm

01:16:39.320 just gonna go start my my free weed party like what what happened i don't i don't it's amazing

01:16:45.600 how short the memory can uh can be i guess marcos says uh the uh donald trump journey has been

01:16:53.140 indispensable and pulling back the curtain and breaking the system as we knew it but betrayal

01:16:57.220 of the base is hard to swallow yep man totally get it trust me i as was as furious as anyone the

01:17:03.600 minute that we launched this war and i ran i really was i promise but ultimately it's not about

01:17:11.140 my own emotional uh you know like fulfillment it's not it's not about me realizing my truth

01:17:19.580 it's about winning i'm here to win i want a future for my country i want a future for the people of

01:17:25.720 the united states and that requires getting things done and i'm just not going to get anything done

01:17:31.280 by you know ameliorating my emotional distress at this decision if i have to eventually at some

01:17:39.520 point things get so ridiculous that there's no other choice then i guess there is a moment at

01:17:45.800 which you have to like back away from trump but i'm sorry we're just not there yet as bad as this

01:17:50.460 is as much as i'm angry at this we're just not there yet there just isn't another alternative

01:17:54.920 there's no other route to victory there's just none of this and you can say oh well you're being

01:17:59.900 delusional mag is already dead it's already done okay fine then i guess it's time for you to

01:18:04.940 what start filling up your bunker securing alternative power you know do all that stuff

01:18:11.080 but yeah running around yelling at people on the internet saying that they're they're too dumb and

01:18:15.640 they're not blackpilled enough that's not helping you so why bother right like if if you really think

01:18:21.240 that the whole thing's over and there's just no way to influence anything and all you can do now

01:18:25.900 is just hunker down and protect what's yours. Well, then go do that. That's always been the

01:18:30.080 message anyway. You should not be trusting Donald Trump to fix things for you. Donald Trump is a

01:18:35.720 breather. Donald Trump is a pause button at best. That's all he's ever been for you. So go fix

01:18:42.280 things. Go do things in real life. Go make things better. Make it so you and yours can survive hard

01:18:47.640 times if you think that's what's coming. But coming around and yelling at people who are trying to get

01:18:51.920 things done and do see a path forward again if you think there's just none of that why argue

01:18:57.820 about it on the internet go go solve that problem go take care of yourself and those around you

01:19:02.780 all right guys we're going to go ahead and wrap this up i want to thank everybody for

01:19:08.840 coming by lots of good discussion and debate and that was the whole point of this was to

01:19:13.000 put us back on a track for a healthy discussion and moving forward together so i hope that in

01:19:18.880 some way that contributed to this mr charlemagne always a pleasure speaking with you guys should

01:19:23.280 go and read his sub stack piece the original one that spawned this conversation if it's your first

01:19:28.560 time on the youtube channel you need to go ahead and subscribe like bell notification all that stuff

01:19:33.980 you know when we go live if you want to get these broadcasts as podcasts you need to subscribe to

01:19:38.120 the or mac entire show on your favorite podcast platform and when you do leave a rating or review

01:19:42.560 it really helps with the algorithm magic thank you everybody for watching and as always i'll talk to

01:19:47.040 See you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - March 27, 2026

Mending the MAGA Divide ｜ Guest： Charlemagne ｜ 3⧸27⧸26

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