The Auron MacIntyre Show - No Country for White Men ｜ Guest： Jeremy Carl

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.660 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.240 I've got a great stream with a great guest

00:00:34.900 that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.680 So Compact Magazine recently published an article

00:00:40.820 that did a great job of laying out,

00:00:43.120 I think some pretty shocking statistics

00:00:45.680 in a way that allow people to kind of grasp

00:00:48.460 the narrative of anti-white bigotry.

00:00:50.660 A lot of people were circulating this piece saying,

00:00:53.460 okay, this is really impressive.

00:00:55.120 This is a huge revelation.

00:00:57.220 Now, I don't think it was a huge revelation to many of us

00:00:59.260 who've been talking about this for a while,

00:01:00.960 but it was very good to see it laid out in that manner.

00:01:04.100 However, I think the piece fell short in several ways,

00:01:07.440 including who ends up getting blamed

00:01:10.800 for this whole thing happening.

00:01:12.340 Somebody who's written on this issue quite a bit

00:01:14.500 and also responded to this article,

00:01:16.940 I think very thoughtfully is my friend, Jeremy Carl,

00:01:19.660 and he has joined me today to talk about it.

00:01:21.560 Jeremy, thank you so much for coming on.

00:01:23.480 Great to be on, Oren.

00:01:25.380 Absolutely.

00:01:25.920 We're going to get into the piece again.

00:01:27.280 I don't think it's bad.

00:01:28.140 I do think that it's ultimately good,

00:01:29.980 but I want to get into the things that gets right

00:01:32.140 and then some of the ways in which it falls short.

00:01:34.760 But before we do, let's hear from today's sponsor.

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00:02:38.200 All right, so for people who aren't aware,

00:02:40.980 Compact Magazine is one of these

00:02:43.620 kind of post-liberal magazines.

00:02:47.320 It's not explicitly conservative,

00:02:49.360 but it's not very progressive either.

00:02:52.020 It's kind of in that IDW,

00:02:54.860 the left left me,

00:02:56.400 I'm a disaffected liberal,

00:02:57.460 and now I find myself

00:02:58.540 talking to conservatives,

00:02:59.940 very much exists in kind of that area.

00:03:03.380 And that's good.

00:03:04.220 It's good to have those publications.

00:03:06.100 They have done some good work.

00:03:07.840 They publish guys like Nick Land,

00:03:09.420 and those have been very good articles.

00:03:13.100 The guy who wrote this one is Jacob Savage.

00:03:15.640 The piece is called The Lost Generation.

00:03:17.540 And we're going to talk about the subject more broadly,

00:03:20.180 but the reason I want to frame it inside this article

00:03:22.740 is just the amount of attention that it received,

00:03:24.780 especially from, I would say,

00:03:26.420 the right people,

00:03:27.520 the tastemakers, right?

00:03:29.160 This is a narrative that you have,

00:03:31.640 I think, put together pretty clearly, Jeremy,

00:03:33.640 especially in your book,

00:03:35.000 The Unprotected Class.

00:03:36.680 However, for some reason,

00:03:38.460 because this publication with this status

00:03:41.260 and this position kind of laid things out,

00:03:43.840 I think in a way that is more sympathetic

00:03:45.360 to the creative class, perhaps,

00:03:47.860 this one really caught on.

00:03:49.820 There's a couple of things to praise about the article,

00:03:52.240 but let's probably begin with one thing

00:03:54.440 that gets very right.

00:03:56.240 It does a good job of laying out the statistics,

00:03:58.900 just the stunning numbers,

00:04:00.400 the shift over time in these critical organizations,

00:04:03.760 showing how they move from being

00:04:06.240 not only less white and less male,

00:04:08.520 but also simultaneously,

00:04:10.200 and perhaps a little spicier,

00:04:11.900 being much worse at their jobs.

00:04:13.840 Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

00:04:18.380 It laid out those statistics

00:04:21.140 in a pretty compelling way,

00:04:22.900 and I think that was certainly

00:04:23.960 one of the good things it did.

00:04:25.640 Although, as I commented elsewhere,

00:04:27.880 I mean, I think folks like myself

00:04:29.240 and Heather MacDonald

00:04:30.040 have sort of done this in book form

00:04:32.600 at other times,

00:04:33.980 and kind of what I take away from it a little bit

00:04:36.100 is that people don't read books,

00:04:37.620 even books that sell pretty well.

00:04:41.080 But I do think that he did a good job,

00:04:43.320 and some of those were updated

00:04:44.360 and some of those statistics were new.

00:04:47.300 I think the real,

00:04:48.360 if I can kind of put on my academic hat for a second,

00:04:51.360 I think the real contribution,

00:04:53.120 the intellectual contribution that he made

00:04:55.860 that I'd sort of seen done informally,

00:04:59.040 I mean, I talked about this with folks like Lomez,

00:05:01.100 who was kind of demographically

00:05:02.600 a very similarly situated creative class millennial

00:05:06.560 like the author,

00:05:09.320 but I'd never seen done in a systematic way,

00:05:11.960 is he really does show how

00:05:13.320 there was a real generational impact.

00:05:15.760 So the millennials here

00:05:17.060 really got the short end of a stick

00:05:20.220 in the way that,

00:05:21.320 even though this was going on,

00:05:22.700 and this was one of my criticisms of the piece,

00:05:24.900 it was going on when Gen Xers like me

00:05:27.100 were coming up.

00:05:28.100 It was not as severe.

00:05:29.840 It was not as totalizing.

00:05:32.220 And so I think it's good

00:05:33.400 that he documented that.

00:05:34.880 Again, I'd say an issue, though,

00:05:36.100 where he fell a little bit short

00:05:37.220 is it's still going on for Zoomers.

00:05:39.480 They're in no better situation

00:05:41.460 than their millennial forebears.

00:05:44.420 In fact, it's arguably worse

00:05:45.800 for Zoomers out there.

00:05:47.580 And so there was a little bit

00:05:48.520 of a solipsistic nature of it

00:05:50.820 where the piece is kind of like,

00:05:52.520 well, look at all these bad things

00:05:53.800 that happened to me

00:05:55.180 and just me and my group.

00:05:56.520 Whereas, in fact, no,

00:05:58.140 it happened before you

00:05:59.680 even to a pretty significant degree.

00:06:01.420 And it's happening just as badly,

00:06:03.200 if not worse, after you.

00:06:05.180 Yeah, I mean,

00:06:06.260 I guess we'll get into

00:06:07.560 the criticisms here as well,

00:06:08.820 because I do think that

00:06:09.880 this is where the piece

00:06:11.000 repeatedly falls short.

00:06:13.420 You know, he lays out

00:06:14.420 this compelling case

00:06:15.600 about all the discrimination,

00:06:17.300 how it's been going on for decades,

00:06:19.500 how you're right.

00:06:20.800 You know, there was a great increase

00:06:23.380 and he kind of points to 2013,

00:06:25.120 2014 is the hinge moment

00:06:26.840 where this thing really started to kick in.

00:06:29.260 And then obviously

00:06:29.940 with the death of George Floyd,

00:06:31.300 it goes into just

00:06:32.380 an absolute crusade overdrive

00:06:34.420 where he describes these meetings

00:06:37.340 where like you just had CEOs

00:06:40.300 and leaders just desperately

00:06:42.000 trying to hire black people for anything.

00:06:43.560 Oh, there's just,

00:06:44.340 there's a black woman,

00:06:45.000 just hire her to do what?

00:06:45.820 I don't care.

00:06:46.580 Just put her on the payroll,

00:06:48.420 you know, so we have one more,

00:06:49.680 you know, in our cap.

00:06:51.360 And so he kind of captures

00:06:52.440 that level of like just fanaticism

00:06:54.600 that is running through

00:06:56.000 the institutions at the time.

00:06:57.560 But as you say,

00:06:58.320 this is a program that exists

00:07:00.240 well before the millennials.

00:07:01.940 And he acknowledges that

00:07:03.100 to some extent saying,

00:07:04.080 OK, well, yes,

00:07:05.040 there was an imbalance.

00:07:06.180 There was a preference,

00:07:06.920 but it wasn't that bad.

00:07:08.820 It was you could still make it

00:07:10.060 as a talented person

00:07:11.560 and then focus on the fact

00:07:13.560 that then you saw

00:07:14.400 truly talented people

00:07:15.960 kind of being ejected

00:07:17.680 from these institutions

00:07:18.880 over this racial preference.

00:07:21.220 But then at the end of the piece,

00:07:22.820 he talks about his son

00:07:24.040 and what their dreams will be

00:07:25.660 and what will he tell them.

00:07:27.420 And I'm just thinking,

00:07:28.300 you got no answer, buddy.

00:07:29.680 Like you got nothing

00:07:30.580 because ultimately

00:07:32.100 his conclusion is really just,

00:07:33.700 well, white men did this

00:07:34.860 to white men.

00:07:36.120 And so really,

00:07:37.160 you know,

00:07:37.400 this white men were in power

00:07:38.860 and then white men

00:07:39.880 handed that to someone else.

00:07:41.780 And so really,

00:07:42.360 it's just about white men

00:07:44.280 victimizing white men

00:07:45.440 and we should just do better,

00:07:47.300 which I think is just

00:07:48.420 kind of a disastrous way

00:07:50.000 to conclude what otherwise

00:07:51.280 I think is a relatively

00:07:52.780 compelling narrative

00:07:54.060 about how we ended up here.

00:07:56.440 Right.

00:07:56.960 I think that's certainly true.

00:07:58.000 So I think a he he narrows

00:08:00.460 the victim or the perpetrator list

00:08:02.540 too much because there are

00:08:05.380 a lot of other, you know,

00:08:06.440 minorities have agency.

00:08:08.480 And we when when you,

00:08:09.580 you know, dare I say it,

00:08:10.460 if you remove them

00:08:11.520 from their agency

00:08:12.280 of doing negative things,

00:08:13.640 that's kind of racist.

00:08:15.020 One might even call it

00:08:16.300 the soft bigotry

00:08:17.200 of low expectations.

00:08:19.480 The white man's burden here, right?

00:08:21.120 Right.

00:08:21.660 So so we should certainly

00:08:22.740 hold people,

00:08:24.160 even though I do think

00:08:24.820 there were a lot of boomer

00:08:26.300 in particular

00:08:26.980 and to a lesser extent,

00:08:28.000 Gen X white male

00:08:29.740 bad actors here.

00:08:30.940 They were not the only ones.

00:08:32.800 So I think that

00:08:33.720 that is a piece of it.

00:08:34.920 And I think the sort of

00:08:36.560 the two other kind of pieces

00:08:38.100 that are really the

00:08:39.420 the central piece

00:08:40.780 of my own critique,

00:08:42.060 which is on my sub stack,

00:08:43.380 sort of titled

00:08:44.320 Why the Lost Generation

00:08:45.740 is a lost opportunity

00:08:47.160 is one

00:08:50.140 that his victim group

00:08:53.340 is to me,

00:08:54.400 not the most compelling

00:08:55.240 or complete victim group.

00:08:57.100 It's really the article

00:08:58.240 he's written

00:08:58.860 is about white male

00:09:00.920 creative class liberals.

00:09:02.640 And I make the point

00:09:04.540 in my own piece

00:09:07.180 that, frankly,

00:09:08.560 those sorts of jobs,

00:09:10.320 you know,

00:09:10.840 they basically lost

00:09:11.940 a factional civil war

00:09:13.120 on their side.

00:09:14.540 And now,

00:09:15.020 like a lot of these

00:09:15.700 IDW types,

00:09:16.920 they're kind of going back

00:09:18.200 and crying and saying,

00:09:19.420 hey, this isn't fair.

00:09:21.220 And, you know,

00:09:21.460 this is awful.

00:09:22.360 But if you were conservative

00:09:23.700 and folks like myself,

00:09:25.400 this has been closed off.

00:09:27.240 These sorts of opportunities

00:09:28.140 were closed off

00:09:29.120 for quite a bit earlier

00:09:30.620 than 10 years ago.

00:09:32.980 So I think that's thing one.

00:09:34.800 Secondly,

00:09:35.760 it erases,

00:09:36.360 I think this is sort of

00:09:37.340 even more fundamental

00:09:38.300 because we shouldn't

00:09:39.100 just obsess about,

00:09:40.380 you know,

00:09:41.100 Hollywood writer jobs

00:09:42.240 and academic jobs

00:09:43.420 and some of these other things,

00:09:44.500 even though they're important.

00:09:45.520 But if you were a white

00:09:46.420 working class man,

00:09:48.140 this most certainly

00:09:49.020 did not start in 2013.

00:09:50.260 When you talk about

00:09:51.420 the destruction

00:09:52.560 of your neighborhood,

00:09:53.380 when you talk about

00:09:54.220 your job being shipped off

00:09:55.840 to a foreign country,

00:09:57.420 these sorts of things

00:09:58.120 started decades ago.

00:09:59.920 And so I think

00:10:00.440 there's a little bit

00:10:01.300 of myopia here

00:10:03.680 in his kind of outlook.

00:10:08.840 And again,

00:10:09.820 he's chosen a victim group

00:10:11.200 that I don't think

00:10:12.520 conservatives should find,

00:10:14.300 at least the most

00:10:15.060 compelling victim group.

00:10:16.600 The second problem I had,

00:10:17.760 and I think you were sort of

00:10:18.760 kind of alluding to it

00:10:20.660 in your own comments,

00:10:22.240 is that, you know,

00:10:24.260 he doesn't really say

00:10:25.280 what we should do

00:10:26.460 and he doesn't encourage us

00:10:28.320 to stand up and say,

00:10:29.920 hey, no, this is wrong.

00:10:31.340 We're not going to

00:10:31.880 put up with this.

00:10:32.560 If anything, he is,

00:10:34.540 there's a little bit

00:10:35.280 of an intellectual

00:10:35.880 battered spouse syndrome here.

00:10:37.900 You know, he is,

00:10:39.520 he is kind of too scared

00:10:42.180 to say, hey,

00:10:42.700 the people who did this to us,

00:10:44.720 they're bad, they're wrong.

00:10:46.020 These were not people

00:10:46.920 who had,

00:10:48.920 were otherwise good people

00:10:50.040 who just had

00:10:50.820 the sort of unique blind spot

00:10:54.140 that they were not so nice

00:10:55.420 to white guys.

00:10:56.760 These were really bad people

00:10:58.680 doing bad things.

00:10:59.900 And we need to call them out

00:11:01.600 for doing bad things

00:11:03.220 and take the sorts of

00:11:04.500 political and legal actions

00:11:06.360 that will get them

00:11:07.180 to stop doing those bad things

00:11:08.960 and punish them

00:11:10.100 for bad things

00:11:11.040 that they have done

00:11:11.860 in the past,

00:11:12.820 especially when those things

00:11:13.820 are frankly contrary

00:11:15.540 to American law.

00:11:16.540 Yeah, I just agree

00:11:18.720 with so much of that.

00:11:19.860 First, when you're talking

00:11:20.820 about just the class

00:11:22.000 that has been singled out

00:11:23.220 and elevated here,

00:11:24.640 you think about the fact

00:11:25.780 that this guy,

00:11:26.840 you know, again,

00:11:27.440 I don't know him,

00:11:28.280 but many people,

00:11:29.440 him and perhaps

00:11:30.240 many people like him,

00:11:31.600 have been pushing

00:11:32.180 the kind of policies

00:11:33.020 that have revolutionized

00:11:34.640 working class neighborhoods,

00:11:36.540 working class job markets.

00:11:39.120 You know,

00:11:39.460 they have been just

00:11:40.500 savaging these people

00:11:41.800 on a regular basis

00:11:42.800 with very little care,

00:11:44.000 constantly, you know,

00:11:45.660 deriding these people.

00:11:46.940 Oh, can't you just learn to code?

00:11:48.400 Can't you just learn

00:11:49.160 to do something else?

00:11:50.280 Can't you just be more competitive,

00:11:51.880 be better, figure it out?

00:11:53.460 You know,

00:11:53.680 this is the constant refrain

00:11:55.140 we've heard over and over again.

00:11:56.420 What?

00:11:56.780 You're a racist

00:11:57.580 because you want your neighbor

00:11:58.460 to speak English

00:11:59.160 and, you know,

00:11:59.880 maybe even share

00:12:00.700 a little bit of history with you.

00:12:02.180 You know,

00:12:02.400 these are the things

00:12:03.080 we get thrown around all the time

00:12:04.420 and it's only when the policies

00:12:06.720 inevitably get to them,

00:12:08.200 the revolution finally reaches

00:12:09.620 their front door.

00:12:11.120 All of a sudden,

00:12:11.600 they start to go,

00:12:12.280 oh, well,

00:12:12.700 I guess maybe there could be

00:12:14.100 a problem with this,

00:12:15.300 but it never,

00:12:16.380 there's never,

00:12:16.920 as you point out,

00:12:17.560 there's no,

00:12:17.900 you know,

00:12:18.600 retrospective here.

00:12:19.760 There's no introspection on like,

00:12:21.960 well,

00:12:22.060 how could I have contributed to this?

00:12:24.780 Where did I go wrong?

00:12:26.080 Where did I fill in?

00:12:27.440 Except to say,

00:12:28.160 I just didn't work hard enough.

00:12:29.540 He has this,

00:12:30.060 yeah,

00:12:30.260 he has this kind of lament

00:12:31.340 at the end like,

00:12:32.100 well,

00:12:32.360 you know,

00:12:32.800 geniuses can still make it.

00:12:34.160 I'm just not genius enough

00:12:35.480 because that should be the standard,

00:12:36.940 right?

00:12:37.120 Like,

00:12:37.540 no,

00:12:37.800 it's okay.

00:12:38.300 Racial discrimination is fine.

00:12:39.600 It's more than fine for like complete,

00:12:41.840 you know,

00:12:42.100 to just enshrine an attack on my own people into law because ultimately,

00:12:47.400 you know,

00:12:47.620 I should just be really working harder and that's,

00:12:49.720 that's all that matters.

00:12:50.840 And so it's,

00:12:51.580 it's kind of ultimately a gross way to kind of cop out on most of this,

00:12:55.760 but also this is what I like to call a permission piece,

00:12:58.740 right?

00:12:59.340 This is a piece that is written to give people good liberals,

00:13:03.260 the permission to actually see what their eyes have been showing them the

00:13:06.880 whole time.

00:13:07.440 Right?

00:13:07.680 So we get this with the New York times with something like COVID.

00:13:10.620 Oh,

00:13:10.860 well,

00:13:11.120 yeah,

00:13:11.320 we did call everyone who had the lab leak theory and absolutely insane

00:13:15.520 conspiracy theory.

00:13:16.700 Who should theorist who should lose their job and be locked in their home

00:13:19.340 forever.

00:13:20.180 But actually maybe it did.

00:13:22.600 And now you're why.

00:13:23.340 And I can say,

00:13:24.040 oh,

00:13:24.220 well,

00:13:24.440 of course what we knew it was,

00:13:25.880 we knew it was from the lab the whole time.

00:13:27.740 And that way they,

00:13:29.320 you,

00:13:29.740 you admit the truth.

00:13:30.880 You,

00:13:31.160 you kind of realign the narrative with,

00:13:33.380 with reality to have that cognitive dissonance go away,

00:13:36.920 but you do it in a way that says,

00:13:38.720 but we don't really need to attack any of the institutions,

00:13:41.080 right?

00:13:41.340 Like nowhere in the New York times pieces saying,

00:13:43.440 and now we should take a hard look at our viral virology programs and our,

00:13:47.720 our research programs and our health organizations.

00:13:50.640 People should get fired.

00:13:52.140 We should nothing there.

00:13:53.500 All consequences are,

00:13:54.900 are dispersed or placed back onto the victim.

00:13:57.940 And so we can acknowledge reality,

00:13:59.440 but we need to make sure that there's no,

00:14:01.320 there's no action item.

00:14:02.460 No,

00:14:02.600 we don't,

00:14:02.820 we don't want any calls to action.

00:14:04.060 We don't want anything to change.

00:14:04.960 We're just,

00:14:05.540 you have,

00:14:05.920 you now have permission to notice that the emperor is no longer wearing

00:14:09.000 pants.

00:14:10.140 Yeah,

00:14:10.580 no,

00:14:10.740 I think that's absolutely right.

00:14:11.840 Or,

00:14:12.000 and,

00:14:12.720 you know,

00:14:13.700 I should back up and I think you alluded to this at the top,

00:14:16.680 but I also want to make my own views clear.

00:14:18.600 I'm kind of beating up on this author a little bit precisely because I

00:14:23.100 think the piece is overall a very positive thing.

00:14:25.920 I'm glad it got out there.

00:14:27.140 I'm glad that the normie lib,

00:14:29.380 it's much better that they acknowledge what's going on than that.

00:14:33.320 They don't acknowledge what's going on.

00:14:35.320 It's fantastic that this is a discussion of anti-white racism,

00:14:38.820 anything to get this more into the mainstream.

00:14:42.020 That's all a good thing.

00:14:43.320 There's a lot of good things in the piece itself.

00:14:46.480 The reason why I think it's important for us to push back is,

00:14:50.660 is just the,

00:14:51.660 the problems nonetheless with the framing that you and I are talking about.

00:14:56.660 And it's fine for,

00:14:58.600 you know,

00:14:58.940 Mr.

00:14:59.220 Normie live out there to maybe kind of just have this surface level thing.

00:15:03.080 But for our guys,

00:15:03.980 I think it's really important to,

00:15:06.080 to kind of have the correct frame in terms of how we look at this,

00:15:10.460 in terms of who we want to really elevate in these sorts of discussions,

00:15:16.500 who we need to correct this for,

00:15:18.560 and how aggressive we need to be in our response.

00:15:23.160 And you know,

00:15:24.120 I'm concerned that if we kind of take the prescription that he's implicitly offering,

00:15:28.760 we may not wind up there.

00:15:31.000 And I think,

00:15:31.400 you know,

00:15:31.620 maybe the kind of one sentence critique that I would have of the piece is if we

00:15:38.220 reversed all of the trends that he's talking about since 2014,

00:15:43.280 we'd still be in a really,

00:15:44.640 really bad place.

00:15:45.660 It would just be a bunch of normie white male liberals,

00:15:48.560 who would still be pushing the same kind of BS in our elite cultural institutions and

00:15:53.300 whatever spaces they have kind of doing all the same stuff.

00:15:58.100 And so that is not what victory looks like.

00:16:00.580 That is not a condition of victory.

00:16:01.920 That's not an outcome of victory.

00:16:04.020 And so I think we just need to be very clear and clear eyed on what we're looking to get here.

00:16:11.880 Yeah.

00:16:12.320 Again,

00:16:12.560 to be clear,

00:16:13.220 this is a situation where the piece is a win.

00:16:16.120 Like,

00:16:16.320 I don't want people to misunderstand what we're saying here.

00:16:18.940 The piece is a positive thing.

00:16:20.260 The piece is a win.

00:16:21.520 You know,

00:16:22.020 when,

00:16:22.200 when,

00:16:22.460 when reality,

00:16:23.480 when the media has to realign itself with reality,

00:16:26.580 you've done something,

00:16:27.860 you've won something at that point.

00:16:29.480 But,

00:16:30.040 but as you say,

00:16:30.920 what we don't want to do is allow these IDW type guys to capture the narrative,

00:16:35.680 because that is so much of what has happened,

00:16:38.040 especially you look at kind of the,

00:16:39.640 the arrival of the IDW and the post liberals and the,

00:16:43.060 the disaffected leftists into the conservative movement.

00:16:45.900 They've done a really,

00:16:47.580 you know,

00:16:47.820 they've worked really hard to try to steer the solutions and beliefs of conservatives.

00:16:51.940 And we've seen that that is a not a good recipe that ultimately leads us to bad places.

00:16:58.520 It's good when these people acknowledge and agree and want to become co-belligerents,

00:17:02.840 but they don't get to run the show.

00:17:04.140 They don't get to,

00:17:04.700 they don't get to own the narrative.

00:17:06.260 They don't get to control the answers.

00:17:07.760 And so that that's really the key because again,

00:17:11.340 that piece showing up is going to open the eyes of a lot of people.

00:17:15.340 And the fact that that story had to be told at this point means something.

00:17:19.580 So it's,

00:17:20.060 it's a victory,

00:17:20.660 but we do not want the conclusion to then be well,

00:17:24.260 but ultimately we just have to work harder or maybe we should have some conversations.

00:17:28.940 Like,

00:17:29.440 no,

00:17:29.660 we need to see hard,

00:17:30.860 real severe action and penalties.

00:17:33.440 We,

00:17:34.000 we need to see change or we need to be driving for something.

00:17:37.280 The institutions have proven something about their quality.

00:17:40.960 The elite class has proven something about who they are and what they believe.

00:17:44.740 And we need to be telling that narrative,

00:17:46.480 showing that and not just leaving it for disaffected liberals to ultimately kind of

00:17:50.240 limp in and say,

00:17:51.180 well,

00:17:51.600 I guess this is a just part of life now.

00:17:53.700 Like,

00:17:53.820 no,

00:17:54.280 this is not part of life.

00:17:55.320 There is no destiny here.

00:17:56.860 We did not have to arrive at this position and we can reverse it.

00:18:00.240 If it was,

00:18:00.720 can be legally engineered,

00:18:01.800 it can be legally dismantled.

00:18:04.880 Yeah.

00:18:05.400 I mean,

00:18:05.840 absolutely.

00:18:06.280 I just,

00:18:06.740 I could say 15 more minutes of things,

00:18:09.260 but I agree with that entirely.

00:18:11.360 Well,

00:18:11.820 I think also it's important,

00:18:13.420 you know,

00:18:13.660 we,

00:18:13.800 we lament the fact that the creative lib kind of becomes the,

00:18:17.960 the,

00:18:18.320 the,

00:18:18.700 the person on a pedestal or the center of this story.

00:18:21.380 But in a way,

00:18:22.340 of course,

00:18:22.720 that's useful because that means they finally care.

00:18:24.960 Right.

00:18:25.260 So it's,

00:18:25.860 they didn't care when it was some guy in Omaha.

00:18:27.960 They didn't care when it was someone,

00:18:30.520 you know,

00:18:30.720 working a,

00:18:31.340 a working class job down in Georgia,

00:18:33.680 but they do care when it finally starts hitting them.

00:18:36.360 And that story is relatable to them.

00:18:38.400 And they can,

00:18:39.140 they can grasp that.

00:18:40.020 And I'll say this,

00:18:40.800 this part is real though.

00:18:41.920 The other thing he does is he breaks down the infiltration and you've done this in your book,

00:18:46.160 but helpful for,

00:18:47.240 I'm sure many of the creative libs who read this,

00:18:49.540 he breaks down the infiltration in each one of the critical parts of the cathedral,

00:18:54.360 the consensus making apparatus.

00:18:55.720 Here's how it infiltrated into the universities here,

00:18:58.800 how here's what it looked like in creative outlets like a film and television.

00:19:03.620 Here's how it controlled the news media and where that was going.

00:19:06.940 And those are of course the consensus making tools that allow the elites to control the way that people look at things.

00:19:14.100 So by laying out how all of these things infiltrated each one of these industries,

00:19:18.760 and again,

00:19:19.720 importantly,

00:19:20.260 how that made them worse,

00:19:22.180 how it notably reduced the quality of the output being produced in each one.

00:19:26.820 He's highlighting that not only are you the,

00:19:30.000 the,

00:19:30.260 the,

00:19:30.500 the good lib who's,

00:19:31.620 who's falling in line,

00:19:32.880 not only are you going to get eaten by this tiger,

00:19:34.920 but also it's going to just destroy everything about kind of,

00:19:40.000 you know,

00:19:40.320 how people perceive this,

00:19:42.460 how the quality of the ruling elite,

00:19:44.440 their grasp on the institutions,

00:19:46.280 that's all in danger.

00:19:47.940 Again,

00:19:48.840 maybe we just want to push them over,

00:19:50.540 but that,

00:19:51.600 you know,

00:19:51.740 for,

00:19:51.940 for these guys who are invested in the maintenance of those institutions,

00:19:55.080 it is a little bit of a wake up call.

00:19:57.720 Absolutely.

00:19:58.240 We don't want to be eaten by the tiger.

00:19:59.660 We want to ride the tiger.

00:20:00.780 Absolutely.

00:20:01.400 So I think,

00:20:02.780 you know,

00:20:03.380 and I,

00:20:03.600 I actually had a little bit of sort of a brief pleasant exchange that I'm hoping to

00:20:08.060 continue with the author after the piece came out.

00:20:11.620 And I think he was very receptive to the things that I would say,

00:20:14.840 I'm not implying that he necessarily agreed with them all,

00:20:16.780 but,

00:20:17.460 but,

00:20:17.660 you know,

00:20:18.200 I'm certainly not of the view that the primary stance we want to take is beat

00:20:22.760 up this guy.

00:20:23.460 Who's gotten this story more into the mainstream.

00:20:25.900 Not at all.

00:20:26.620 I just,

00:20:27.140 I'd like him to be better.

00:20:28.560 I'd like,

00:20:29.180 like his thesis to be better.

00:20:30.580 Right.

00:20:31.020 And again,

00:20:32.940 you know,

00:20:33.180 I'd like to take those,

00:20:34.320 those kind of white male creative crap class lives,

00:20:37.120 who I think would be huge assets if we can bring them into the movement to,

00:20:43.320 to feel like there is a welcome space,

00:20:45.720 but they've,

00:20:46.180 they've got to be willing to take that step a little bit themselves.

00:20:49.820 And I think again,

00:20:51.020 something I touched on in my piece,

00:20:52.680 there's a sort of aesthetic revulsion,

00:20:54.960 unfortunately,

00:20:55.500 on that side.

00:20:57.120 You know,

00:20:57.680 look,

00:20:57.980 I understand it to a slight degree,

00:20:59.620 but I can't,

00:21:00.440 I can't empathize with it or justify it at the end of the day.

00:21:04.920 I mean,

00:21:05.060 I understand where they're,

00:21:06.360 they're coming from and,

00:21:07.520 and the social background that,

00:21:09.580 that they have,

00:21:10.660 that they're like,

00:21:11.180 Oh,

00:21:11.480 those,

00:21:11.920 those kind of icky red staters clinging to their guns and religion.

00:21:15.720 You know,

00:21:15.840 we don't want to be with them partially because the whole media apparatus and

00:21:19.700 environment has taught them just like us from moment one,

00:21:23.820 that those are very,

00:21:24.580 very icky,

00:21:25.220 bad people.

00:21:26.120 Right.

00:21:26.680 So they,

00:21:27.200 they still want to be the responsible,

00:21:31.200 nice critic within the system.

00:21:33.700 They're not,

00:21:34.500 they're,

00:21:34.680 they're afraid to kind of cross the Rubicon and say,

00:21:37.780 no,

00:21:38.840 we're an enemy of this system.

00:21:41.180 That is clearly shown us to itself to be our enemy.

00:21:44.740 So they need to be willing to take that step.

00:21:47.780 And I'm always willing to step out on behalf of people who,

00:21:51.680 who will take that step and,

00:21:53.340 and encourage them and,

00:21:54.500 you know,

00:21:55.040 try to find places in our coalition for them.

00:21:57.980 But I,

00:21:58.860 you know,

00:21:59.040 we're not trying to create a new loyal opposition here.

00:22:04.800 That is really just the new Washington generals to the Democrats,

00:22:09.220 Harlem Globetrotters,

00:22:10.280 and they're,

00:22:11.440 they're going to be just fine playing basketball as long as at the end of

00:22:14.860 the day,

00:22:15.340 they always lose.

00:22:17.460 I also thought it was pretty funny that he mentioned that because of the

00:22:21.880 levels of gatekeeping and HR restriction,

00:22:24.980 so many talented white men,

00:22:27.480 like one of the reasons you've seen these two silos,

00:22:30.500 like just explode is they're going into Bitcoin and podcasting,

00:22:34.660 which,

00:22:34.960 you know,

00:22:35.180 it sounds like a joke,

00:22:36.560 but you know,

00:22:37.480 really that is one of the reasons that I think both of these things have

00:22:41.440 become so explosive and dynamic.

00:22:43.800 They've seen,

00:22:44.320 we've seen a gold rush in many ways in these areas.

00:22:47.580 And,

00:22:48.100 you know,

00:22:48.340 as somebody who personally was locked out of higher institutions and elite

00:22:53.260 culture and started a podcast,

00:22:55.100 I,

00:22:55.600 I,

00:22:56.260 you know,

00:22:56.460 I kind of,

00:22:57.180 kind of feel that to an extent.

00:22:58.740 It's funny because,

00:22:59.440 Matt Walsh and Tucker Carlson recently also had a conversation on anti-white

00:23:05.580 bigotry and the nature and how it,

00:23:07.500 and what it's compelled people,

00:23:08.880 you know,

00:23:09.080 and both of them said,

00:23:10.000 Hey,

00:23:10.100 one of the reasons that we're just like sitting on Twitter,

00:23:14.240 reading Twitter and ons and being blown away by kind of the insights that

00:23:17.880 they have is that we force so many capable young white man men out of,

00:23:22.460 you know,

00:23:23.320 the,

00:23:23.500 the institutions,

00:23:24.220 the only place they have to write,

00:23:26.080 like we have guys,

00:23:26.860 you know,

00:23:27.140 writing entire treaties just on Twitter.

00:23:29.440 Because there's just nowhere else for them to work.

00:23:31.940 It's the only way they could merit radically prove themselves in the

00:23:35.600 marketplace.

00:23:36.060 And so you have this strange moment where there's just entire,

00:23:39.900 you know,

00:23:40.120 it literally is the last generation has just moved into entirely different

00:23:44.140 places.

00:23:44.660 And so you wonder if those,

00:23:47.180 you know,

00:23:47.580 like you said,

00:23:48.120 you're not being happy warriors inside that institution.

00:23:50.680 These people are not cowed either by the,

00:23:53.020 by kind of the,

00:23:53.840 the limitations that were placed on people in those institutions.

00:23:56.980 And so you have almost this like weird guerrilla counter elite forming

00:24:00.980 outside due to this whole situation.

00:24:04.000 Absolutely.

00:24:04.660 And I mean,

00:24:04.900 I think there's so many of these good guys out here who are just running

00:24:08.060 the nominal sub stacks.

00:24:09.760 I mean,

00:24:09.940 I I'd be lying.

00:24:10.760 I don't have a time to read even a 10th of them.

00:24:13.760 Right.

00:24:13.940 But there's just people who are obviously very smart,

00:24:16.800 very learned doing great,

00:24:19.160 great work because they've been shut out of the institutions.

00:24:22.560 And you and Matt are classic examples of that.

00:24:25.740 Of course,

00:24:25.960 I mean,

00:24:26.140 Tucker's family was sort of members of the establishment in,

00:24:29.080 in good standing,

00:24:29.980 but you're guys,

00:24:31.220 and this is one of the wonderful things about the internet,

00:24:32.960 even irrespective of,

00:24:35.740 you know,

00:24:37.560 the,

00:24:37.720 the kind of situation,

00:24:38.600 micro situation we're talking about is it does just allow talent to rise,

00:24:43.800 rise to the surface.

00:24:44.920 I mean,

00:24:45.180 you,

00:24:45.420 you and Matt didn't,

00:24:46.620 I mean,

00:24:47.040 Matt didn't go to college at all.

00:24:49.500 You didn't kind of come from any particular background.

00:24:52.420 I don't know anything about your credentials at all.

00:24:55.700 It didn't matter.

00:24:56.280 You started posting stuff.

00:24:57.300 I have a very impressive bachelor's degree from a party school.

00:25:00.840 Right.

00:25:01.260 So,

00:25:01.500 I mean,

00:25:01.980 yeah,

00:25:02.140 but it didn't matter,

00:25:03.060 right?

00:25:03.440 Like you just,

00:25:04.080 you put up stuff and it was compelling and people thought it was smart.

00:25:08.680 And like,

00:25:09.680 so you,

00:25:10.140 you were able to make a profile for yourself.

00:25:12.300 You know,

00:25:12.560 I went and checked,

00:25:13.800 all of these boxes.

00:25:15.440 And so in some sense,

00:25:16.460 I'm a little bit of a class trader in,

00:25:18.720 or probably a lot of a class trader in the fact that I'm,

00:25:21.280 I'm you know,

00:25:22.420 sitting here talking to you about all these things and that I've chosen the

00:25:25.160 kind of path that I've chosen.

00:25:26.580 But I think one of the great things about the internet more broadly is,

00:25:30.520 yeah.

00:25:30.760 Okay,

00:25:31.000 fine.

00:25:31.340 Like,

00:25:31.720 you know,

00:25:32.140 it doesn't matter that you went to Yale or Harvard or wherever you went,

00:25:36.740 you know,

00:25:36.940 like how good is your work?

00:25:38.100 Like that's what,

00:25:38.840 but ultimately matters.

00:25:40.080 And so I think again,

00:25:41.900 our side,

00:25:43.460 because we are less focused on these credentials and because we don't have that

00:25:48.240 kind of credentialing ecosystem has led to great opportunities for guys like

00:25:54.320 you and Matt Walsh and many,

00:25:56.180 many others with a lot of talent to just rise to the top that having been said,

00:26:02.060 which is all wonderful.

00:26:03.120 I think it is also a challenge for us that we don't have as many credentialing sort of

00:26:11.220 groups as we'd like.

00:26:13.360 My friends at American moment are trying to do this with young DC staffers at Claremont,

00:26:18.340 where I am a fellow,

00:26:19.400 which is of course itself a,

00:26:20.640 an institution with at least some prestige in our part of the world.

00:26:23.720 But what we try to do with our fellows that,

00:26:27.280 you know,

00:26:27.440 we have,

00:26:28.240 you know,

00:26:29.020 40 to 50 or maybe a little bit more,

00:26:32.040 you know,

00:26:32.200 maybe that maybe 50 to 75 or whatever per year who come in for our programs.

00:26:36.600 But if you,

00:26:37.400 you just go through that,

00:26:38.500 even for a couple of weeks of intensive training,

00:26:41.060 you know,

00:26:41.360 you're sort of giving a signal to the broader marketplace on our side that,

00:26:45.600 Hey,

00:26:45.620 this is a capable person and it's an aligned person.

00:26:48.660 So I think we do need to come up with our own credentialing institutions to a degree.

00:26:55.120 Having said that,

00:26:56.020 I do think it's an advantage that we also have an easier time of organically elevating good talent than the left is.

00:27:04.640 Yeah.

00:27:05.100 Obviously owning institutions is better than not owning institutions.

00:27:08.220 So while it's great to,

00:27:09.600 of course,

00:27:09.880 to,

00:27:10.080 to win,

00:27:10.980 you know,

00:27:11.220 like a guerrilla war at some level,

00:27:13.240 eventually you want a regular army,

00:27:14.740 right?

00:27:14.900 Like that's,

00:27:15.400 that,

00:27:15.680 that's kind of the goal.

00:27:16.620 So it's nice that a few of us have been able to carve out a little bit,

00:27:19.840 but you want the average person.

00:27:21.420 And then I'll say this,

00:27:22.140 even though this was not my favorite moment in his article,

00:27:25.600 he points out,

00:27:26.220 well,

00:27:26.360 I'm not a genius,

00:27:27.060 but I'm,

00:27:27.720 I'm,

00:27:27.760 I'm just,

00:27:28.340 you know,

00:27:28.520 I'm,

00:27:28.680 I have a good talent and normally that would have been enough.

00:27:31.920 And while I think he comes to the wrong conclusion on that,

00:27:34.460 it's true.

00:27:35.020 And there should be a scenario where talented guys is good enough.

00:27:40.040 You know,

00:27:40.180 like everyone doesn't have to be a savant.

00:27:41.900 Everybody doesn't have to be a once in a generation talent.

00:27:44.840 You should have good,

00:27:46.540 talented people who are able to cultivate it.

00:27:49.040 And they shouldn't just be pushed out of their ability to work because

00:27:52.340 they're white.

00:27:53.160 So having institutions that ultimately can cultivate and promote people who

00:27:58.360 are doing good work,

00:27:59.380 who happen to be Caucasian that,

00:28:02.060 that those,

00:28:02.600 those are positive things.

00:28:03.660 We want that to be an available thing through the institutions.

00:28:06.520 You don't want to have to have it all be done.

00:28:08.660 There's only so many podcasts,

00:28:09.860 man.

00:28:10.020 There's only so many subsets.

00:28:11.380 Eventually you do have,

00:28:12.380 you know,

00:28:12.840 buying these people back in institutions at some level.

00:28:15.760 Right.

00:28:15.960 No,

00:28:16.320 no,

00:28:16.580 absolutely.

00:28:17.300 And,

00:28:17.740 and,

00:28:17.920 you know,

00:28:19.700 I think for,

00:28:20.760 I touched on this myself as,

00:28:22.280 as a kind of principal reason,

00:28:23.640 I left my doctoral program at Stanford.

00:28:25.580 I just didn't see a place for me that didn't involve me totally selling out,

00:28:29.920 even though I'd kind of run the gauntlet in a way that was,

00:28:33.120 very,

00:28:34.140 very difficult to do as a conservative,

00:28:35.980 but I've said this a couple of times,

00:28:38.000 not,

00:28:38.200 not a lot publicly,

00:28:39.060 but I'll say it,

00:28:40.080 say it again here,

00:28:41.040 right?

00:28:41.240 Like if the left has found me to be a little bit of a pain or difficulty,

00:28:45.460 and I certainly hope they have,

00:28:47.660 because I want to be their,

00:28:49.060 their enemy.

00:28:49.900 In a normal happy world,

00:28:53.540 I would be a history professor at Iowa state university,

00:28:57.680 right?

00:28:57.920 Like I'm not,

00:28:58.540 I'm not a Harvard talent,

00:28:59.820 right?

00:29:00.120 Like for that faculty,

00:29:01.880 right?

00:29:02.140 Like that's the,

00:29:03.260 like,

00:29:03.440 I'm not claiming that I was like God's gift to genius,

00:29:06.340 but I was a smart and capable enough guy that,

00:29:09.480 you know,

00:29:11.740 in a sort of more level playing field,

00:29:13.800 I would have been happily teaching at some,

00:29:16.540 you know,

00:29:17.280 respectable state school somewhere in,

00:29:19.720 in a history or political science department.

00:29:21.920 I would have been happy.

00:29:22.720 I would not have caused the regime any problems,

00:29:25.240 but because the regime basically told me,

00:29:28.200 you know,

00:29:28.360 Hey,

00:29:29.040 you're white,

00:29:29.920 you're male,

00:29:30.260 and you're a conservative.

00:29:31.080 We don't have any interest in you.

00:29:33.900 You know,

00:29:34.360 I had to go fight against the regime because the only other option was to

00:29:38.840 kind of shrink and just kind of accept my fate,

00:29:42.560 which is,

00:29:42.940 you know,

00:29:43.060 unfortunately,

00:29:43.560 again,

00:29:43.720 my criticism of the article is implicitly it's kind of elevating people who

00:29:49.180 have done just that.

00:29:50.400 And I think that's obviously not acceptable.

00:29:53.460 Yeah.

00:29:53.560 It's funny because I,

00:29:55.080 you know,

00:29:55.420 it,

00:29:56.020 in some ways,

00:29:56.860 again,

00:29:57.540 though,

00:29:57.680 this is far from ideal and not what we wanted,

00:29:59.640 but in some ways you end up creating even more powerful enemies

00:30:03.940 because if they had just allowed a guy of,

00:30:07.980 you know,

00:30:08.240 if they had just allowed me to,

00:30:09.860 you know,

00:30:11.260 be a staffer in some congressional office or,

00:30:13.900 you know,

00:30:14.120 be a,

00:30:14.720 be a TA,

00:30:15.860 you know,

00:30:16.060 for some professor,

00:30:17.100 I probably would just been safely contained inside the system.

00:30:19.920 I would have been more than happy with getting a middle,

00:30:22.640 modeling professorship somewhere.

00:30:24.380 And yeah,

00:30:24.760 yeah.

00:30:25.000 Like that would have been,

00:30:25.980 that would have been great.

00:30:26.700 I would have loved that.

00:30:27.400 I would have thought I would achieve my greatest goals.

00:30:30.240 Now I'm out here in situations.

00:30:31.760 I didn't even know to dream about because of,

00:30:34.440 you know,

00:30:34.700 because,

00:30:35.300 because I had to do it on my own.

00:30:36.840 I had to break through.

00:30:37.720 I had to go outside the system.

00:30:38.780 And I think that's true of a number of people.

00:30:40.500 I think they actually are honing,

00:30:42.060 you know,

00:30:42.640 you know,

00:30:43.300 it was Arrakis was made to,

00:30:44.960 to train the faithful,

00:30:45.940 you know,

00:30:46.280 it was one of those situations where ultimately we,

00:30:49.460 we become much,

00:30:50.340 much stronger because the only way to achieve his success is in the most brutal

00:30:54.680 fashion.

00:30:55.180 And I'm,

00:30:56.060 you know,

00:30:56.180 I come from a background where I'm,

00:30:59.360 I'm a,

00:30:59.800 I'm a white Southern evangelical,

00:31:01.560 you know,

00:31:02.700 from,

00:31:03.340 from a family who's,

00:31:04.360 you know,

00:31:04.480 my granddad was working on tractors and my other one was a,

00:31:07.600 was an army supply sergeant or air force supply sergeant.

00:31:10.580 It's,

00:31:11.020 it's not exactly like I,

00:31:12.520 you know,

00:31:12.660 I,

00:31:12.820 I am very familiar to this day when I walk into certain rooms,

00:31:16.340 it's like,

00:31:17.080 ah,

00:31:17.940 one of those,

00:31:18.740 right.

00:31:19.520 Yeah.

00:31:20.100 I,

00:31:20.500 I obviously do not,

00:31:21.680 you know,

00:31:22.220 whole hold the level of status that you're supposed to being in these

00:31:25.340 scenarios.

00:31:25.840 So it's just one of those things where I think when you just don't have

00:31:30.020 access,

00:31:30.380 you just have to become,

00:31:31.640 you know,

00:31:32.440 way,

00:31:33.000 way,

00:31:33.300 way,

00:31:33.600 way better at what you're doing in order to,

00:31:35.300 to make a splash.

00:31:36.040 And so they are,

00:31:36.980 they are,

00:31:37.480 even though it's not ideal,

00:31:38.680 they are kind of breeding some of their worst enemies with these

00:31:41.900 tactics.

00:31:42.620 No,

00:31:43.060 absolutely.

00:31:43.680 And again,

00:31:44.040 you know,

00:31:44.300 my,

00:31:44.520 my friend and neighbor Lomas out in Montana,

00:31:47.320 you know,

00:31:48.880 he started passage press,

00:31:50.360 which is now this thing that's having a lot of influence,

00:31:53.860 increasing influence in our world.

00:31:54.960 He,

00:31:55.420 cause he needed a job,

00:31:56.600 right?

00:31:57.020 Like nobody was going to hire him.

00:31:59.520 So he's like,

00:32:00.040 okay,

00:32:00.240 well,

00:32:00.480 I'm going to go,

00:32:01.360 or at least,

00:32:01.680 I mean,

00:32:02.060 it's not that he was not hireable.

00:32:03.200 He had been,

00:32:04.000 he'd worked at Google,

00:32:04.780 but you know,

00:32:06.040 nobody was going to hire him without him selling out.

00:32:08.560 And so he had to create his own institution.

00:32:13.120 And again,

00:32:13.860 I think you'd point out your own situation.

00:32:15.800 I just think there's so many other people in our world who are in that

00:32:20.600 kind of bucket.

00:32:21.700 And I think the next step is to really find institutions that can

00:32:26.400 aggregate,

00:32:27.160 that can credential,

00:32:28.600 that can do all these other things for people in that situation,

00:32:32.240 because we have got so much talent that is still being underutilized.

00:32:38.320 And I think it's,

00:32:39.420 it's not just something to complain about as this article did.

00:32:42.860 It's really,

00:32:43.520 we have to look at it as a tremendous opportunity that we're out here,

00:32:48.260 that we're taking a much more oppositional tactic to the regime than we

00:32:51.940 would have otherwise.

00:32:52.540 And that there's all sorts of spaces that open up because of that.

00:32:57.960 So this is not exactly the same thing,

00:33:01.340 but it's tangential.

00:33:04.220 The Vek Ramaswamy recently released an article,

00:33:08.660 I believe it was through the New York times on what is an American.

00:33:13.000 And in that piece,

00:33:14.880 he gave more or less the responses you would expect.

00:33:17.860 It's,

00:33:18.380 you know,

00:33:18.640 it's,

00:33:18.980 it's kind of the same stump speech he gives everywhere.

00:33:21.920 It's been interesting because the Vek has started to try to answer this

00:33:26.260 question after his disaster H H one B blowout.

00:33:30.580 And the fact that he seems to be losing in Ohio,

00:33:34.320 despite being a,

00:33:35.880 you know,

00:33:36.280 endorsed Republican candidate.

00:33:38.620 And so you have the scenario where it feels like he's,

00:33:41.720 he's trying to situate himself a slightly more favorably in that

00:33:47.100 discussion.

00:33:47.800 And the article really just goes through,

00:33:50.780 you know,

00:33:51.400 if you work hard and you believe in success and it,

00:33:55.740 I don't,

00:33:56.440 I don't know why he doesn't see how shallow and vapid and meaningless that

00:34:00.860 is,

00:34:01.180 but increasingly these answers are getting worse and worse and they are just

00:34:05.740 not working,

00:34:06.620 especially on younger generations.

00:34:08.260 I think the same young,

00:34:10.540 especially white men who have been pushed out of these institutions are looking

00:34:13.920 at answers like the Vek and thinking I worked hard.

00:34:16.680 I did.

00:34:16.980 I believed in all of these things and I got nowhere.

00:34:19.700 This country is not for me.

00:34:20.920 It's not for you for Americans because hardworking Americans aren't getting

00:34:24.780 anywhere.

00:34:25.580 And I think there's just a fundamental inability of a guy like the Vek to acknowledge the

00:34:33.020 situation that had,

00:34:34.620 that these guys have been placed in and ultimately find any meaningful solutions.

00:34:39.320 What,

00:34:39.840 how do you think about that,

00:34:40.980 that conversation of what is an American running alongside this anti-white

00:34:45.120 discrimination?

00:34:45.680 I mean,

00:34:46.140 these,

00:34:46.280 these conversations probably aren't happening simultaneously for no reason.

00:34:49.720 Yeah,

00:34:50.000 no,

00:34:50.260 absolutely.

00:34:50.880 And I'm going to try to respond to Vivek's article because I think it was,

00:34:55.300 I mean,

00:34:55.580 at one level it was encouraging that at least he sort of showed some awareness of

00:35:01.300 the type of critiques that were being made.

00:35:03.640 That was a little deeper than I've seen before.

00:35:05.620 And again,

00:35:06.160 just like this article getting out there,

00:35:07.820 that's great.

00:35:08.980 This is,

00:35:09.880 you know,

00:35:10.060 dare I say it,

00:35:10.720 I don't even know if it really is Gandhi,

00:35:12.440 but the first day ignore you and then they laugh at you and then they fight you

00:35:15.280 and then you win.

00:35:16.360 We're moving up that in clock.

00:35:19.020 You know,

00:35:20.280 we're somewhere between being laughed at and they're fighting us.

00:35:24.480 But yeah,

00:35:25.300 there's a resistance.

00:35:26.680 And again,

00:35:27.160 I want to be very fair here to Vivek and others kind of maybe who might be

00:35:32.440 somewhat similarly situated.

00:35:33.660 I have a human understanding of his wanting to say it's all creedal.

00:35:38.840 And yes,

00:35:39.540 you know,

00:35:40.060 I can get off.

00:35:40.860 I mean,

00:35:40.980 he was actually born in the U S but you could get off the boat,

00:35:44.220 you know,

00:35:44.520 X years ago and be just as American as somebody whose ancestry goes back to

00:35:49.860 the Mayflower.

00:35:51.140 But this pure creedal Americanism just doesn't,

00:35:55.160 I mean,

00:35:55.400 it's,

00:35:55.680 it's illogical in and of its own kind of,

00:36:00.900 even on its own terms,

00:36:01.900 it just doesn't make any sense.

00:36:02.960 If you think about it for two seconds,

00:36:04.920 that isn't to say that creedal or certain views are not part of you being

00:36:11.080 an American,

00:36:12.420 but my simple answer to Vivek would be,

00:36:15.200 okay,

00:36:15.300 well,

00:36:15.540 let's,

00:36:15.740 let's look at that list of things that he says.

00:36:17.960 And it's like free market and free ideas.

00:36:20.080 Are we kicking out people who don't believe in those things?

00:36:22.620 Are we saying that they are not Americans and then they have to go back?

00:36:26.080 And of course the answer is we're not right.

00:36:28.760 And that's,

00:36:29.340 and so it just sort of shows that this is perhaps necessary to be a good

00:36:34.320 American,

00:36:34.700 but it isn't sufficient.

00:36:36.300 And that it actually kind of does matter how much we,

00:36:40.220 you share a historical religion or historical culture,

00:36:44.200 a historical sort of social framework with the people who founded and built

00:36:49.140 this country.

00:36:49.760 And again,

00:36:50.540 to me,

00:36:51.100 I think he uses the notion.

00:36:53.860 It's not a scalar.

00:36:54.740 Now I'm going to just,

00:36:55.880 my,

00:36:56.020 my father is a physicist is going to come shoot me because I think he's using

00:36:59.520 it.

00:36:59.700 A scalar being a variable that that can have different values and it's not

00:37:04.160 just a yes or no.

00:37:05.780 But I'd say,

00:37:06.580 no,

00:37:06.780 actually that's exactly what it is.

00:37:09.960 You could be,

00:37:11.400 you could actually be,

00:37:12.720 and I have friends who I'd put in this,

00:37:14.340 particularly like friends from kind of non-traditional minorities,

00:37:18.020 but who grew up in like very traditional American places where they were

00:37:21.720 like surrounded by a bunch of chud white guys where they were growing up.

00:37:25.700 A lot of those guys culturally,

00:37:27.900 they are super American.

00:37:29.340 Some of them become Christian.

00:37:30.400 That's another thing that they,

00:37:31.500 you know,

00:37:32.360 end up holding in common.

00:37:33.500 Right.

00:37:33.700 So like I might look at that person and say,

00:37:35.880 well,

00:37:36.580 you know,

00:37:36.840 they're not from a historical American population,

00:37:38.880 but yeah,

00:37:39.380 those guys are pretty darn American.

00:37:42.200 And if they,

00:37:43.140 you know,

00:37:43.660 kind of marry somebody from a more historic American background and have kids,

00:37:47.060 those kids are going to probably be very American.

00:37:49.660 You see this a little bit with somebody like Nalen Haley,

00:37:52.280 who is Nikki Haley's son,

00:37:54.760 giving very,

00:37:55.580 very based answers on American identity on X.

00:37:59.280 So I think it's,

00:38:00.240 it's not absolute.

00:38:02.440 And by the way,

00:38:03.520 you could have the kind of perfect ethnic background,

00:38:06.720 you know,

00:38:08.100 by the standards of people who would be up there nationalists.

00:38:11.020 But if you're a communist and,

00:38:13.240 you know,

00:38:13.360 all these other things that I don't consider you a good American either,

00:38:16.700 but the reality is,

00:38:18.740 and again,

00:38:19.080 you've talked about this on your show,

00:38:20.500 right?

00:38:20.680 It's,

00:38:20.880 it's a,

00:38:21.360 it's a balance.

00:38:23.680 So,

00:38:24.300 you know,

00:38:24.640 I just kind of look at how much in various categories having to do with a,

00:38:29.480 your background,

00:38:30.280 your views,

00:38:30.960 everything else,

00:38:31.660 the more you have in common with these sort of traditional American people and

00:38:35.360 ideas,

00:38:35.980 the more American I'm going to consider you.

00:38:38.100 And it's not a sort of,

00:38:39.480 yes,

00:38:39.720 you are.

00:38:40.320 And that's great.

00:38:41.680 Or no,

00:38:42.320 you're not.

00:38:42.800 It's not just a binary variable.

00:38:44.600 It's a,

00:38:45.080 it's a spectrum,

00:38:46.140 but a lot of people,

00:38:47.660 or at least some people who are pretty prominent say,

00:38:50.320 you know,

00:38:50.560 Hey,

00:38:50.780 no,

00:38:51.580 I,

00:38:52.080 I'm not willing to wait.

00:38:54.500 I'm going to declare myself to be just as American as the people who were

00:38:59.740 ancestors were wintering at Valley forge.

00:39:01.980 And by the way,

00:39:03.780 don't look the same way while I'm seem to be very obsessed with bringing my co-ethnics

00:39:08.180 into the country.

00:39:09.060 Yeah.

00:39:09.780 You know,

00:39:10.320 which is not a thing that kind of traditional quote unquote heritage Americans

00:39:14.080 would seem to subscribe to.

00:39:18.080 So I think that's kind of where this falls down as an idea.

00:39:22.780 And the reality is I know it can be painful.

00:39:25.560 I grew up in the South from a Midwestern family and I was just never going to be as

00:39:31.000 Southern as like the people who'd lived in the South for a long time.

00:39:34.840 Now,

00:39:35.080 was I trying to be a good citizen?

00:39:36.520 Was I accepted more over time?

00:39:38.800 Did I eat a lot of barbecue,

00:39:40.240 you know,

00:39:40.580 go to listen to bluegrass music and do all this.

00:39:43.000 I mean,

00:39:43.280 sure I did.

00:39:43.860 And it made me more like them,

00:39:46.000 but,

00:39:46.320 but there were ways in which I was never going to be quite as Southern as these

00:39:50.560 folks.

00:39:51.200 That's okay.

00:39:52.040 That's not a bad thing.

00:39:53.040 It's not a bad thing that we're making people wait a little time before they

00:39:57.880 get the,

00:39:58.800 the platinum membership in the club in terms of not just their civic rights,

00:40:03.680 which everybody does need to have the same as citizens,

00:40:05.760 but in terms of how they're seen socially,

00:40:08.480 you can't just skip these steps.

00:40:10.580 And what Vivek and some of the other people who are similarly situated are

00:40:14.660 saying is don't pay any attention to whether our behavior and our values seem

00:40:20.040 to deviate from you.

00:40:21.260 We get to skip all those steps.

00:40:23.020 And I think it's totally appropriate that a lot of people are pushing back

00:40:27.140 and saying,

00:40:28.020 no,

00:40:28.320 actually you don't get to do that.

00:40:30.360 Do you have a favorite bluegrass band?

00:40:32.960 Oh my gosh.

00:40:34.400 I mean,

00:40:35.500 I love classic flat and scrugs.

00:40:39.220 You know,

00:40:40.040 that would be,

00:40:40.880 that would be one.

00:40:41.980 I'm just trying to figure out if you could stay in the South,

00:40:44.020 if they would.

00:40:44.580 Joe McCurry,

00:40:45.580 you know,

00:40:46.580 yeah,

00:40:47.040 I could do all that.

00:40:48.040 I mean,

00:40:48.180 I love bluegrass music.

00:40:49.920 But I mean,

00:40:51.700 yes,

00:40:51.880 of course,

00:40:52.340 when I got there,

00:40:53.180 I mean,

00:40:53.360 and that was where I was growing up,

00:40:54.480 by the way.

00:40:54.800 So that was the culture I was around and I adopted a lot of it.

00:40:58.520 And I,

00:40:58.880 you know,

00:40:59.140 I wouldn't say I had,

00:41:00.680 I stayed in the South.

00:41:01.640 I mean,

00:41:01.760 I live now in Montana,

00:41:02.840 like and raised my kids there.

00:41:05.340 They could have been like certainly more Southern and kind of,

00:41:08.880 I think even more part of that identity.

00:41:12.040 But I,

00:41:12.620 I remember actually one time when I was a kid listening and my parents were

00:41:17.500 sort of slightly bemoaning,

00:41:19.260 maybe even in a slightly Vivekish way to some,

00:41:22.340 you know,

00:41:23.100 you needed to live in the South for a long time before you would sort of be

00:41:27.340 fully accepted.

00:41:28.400 And I said,

00:41:29.620 yeah,

00:41:29.860 like 10 years or something.

00:41:31.620 And then everybody laughed.

00:41:32.780 And of course I was like a little kid,

00:41:34.240 so I was clueless,

00:41:35.120 but,

00:41:36.020 but no,

00:41:36.460 a lot longer than 10 years.

00:41:37.720 Sorry.

00:41:38.180 That's just the way it works.

00:41:39.860 It doesn't mean that I was bad or that my family was bad or that anybody

00:41:43.740 else was good.

00:41:44.700 It's just,

00:41:45.640 that's the way identity and culture and community works.

00:41:49.420 And there's nothing wrong with that.

00:41:50.940 There's nothing racist about it.

00:41:52.180 And there's nothing bad about it.

00:41:54.340 Yeah.

00:41:54.800 This is,

00:41:55.320 this is probably going to be my hobby horse on immigration,

00:41:58.500 assimilation moving forward is generational citizenship,

00:42:02.240 generational citizenship.

00:42:04.100 You are not an American.

00:42:06.320 Your kids might not be American,

00:42:07.660 but your grandkids,

00:42:08.800 they could be American.

00:42:10.000 Right.

00:42:10.260 And,

00:42:10.480 and as you point out,

00:42:11.780 you know,

00:42:11.980 my buddy,

00:42:12.400 Carl Benjamin,

00:42:12.900 he says,

00:42:13.440 I can tell American a mile away.

00:42:15.420 I can,

00:42:16.260 I can tell them,

00:42:17.140 but you know,

00:42:17.460 I can be around a corner.

00:42:18.480 I can hear them talking.

00:42:19.520 I immediately know who an American is.

00:42:21.980 It's actually not that hard.

00:42:23.360 You know,

00:42:23.520 it's really,

00:42:24.020 really not that difficult to tell.

00:42:26.160 And I think there's a danger in attempting to instrumentalize different aspects of the

00:42:32.740 identity.

00:42:33.200 So for instance,

00:42:34.740 you know,

00:42:35.060 Elon Musk was recently talking about transgenders.

00:42:38.640 He's like,

00:42:38.840 a woman is somebody who has a womb.

00:42:41.260 And I was like,

00:42:41.640 okay,

00:42:41.880 the minute you do that,

00:42:42.860 you're just opening yourself out.

00:42:44.000 Cause every woman who's ever had a hysterectomy is just going to be like,

00:42:46.680 well,

00:42:47.260 I don't know.

00:42:47.580 So like,

00:42:48.700 that's true.

00:42:49.720 Like,

00:42:49.880 so that's biologically correct.

00:42:51.360 But what we need to do is go back to understanding identity as a nested and complex feature.

00:42:57.280 Something that's obvious once it's assembled,

00:42:59.560 but is of many different parts.

00:43:01.440 So it's religion,

00:43:02.800 it's heritage,

00:43:04.100 it's tradition,

00:43:05.540 it's a language,

00:43:07.020 it's culture.

00:43:07.680 It's all these things.

00:43:08.840 It's not just one of these things.

00:43:10.760 Like you,

00:43:11.540 yes,

00:43:11.880 you eventually need to absorb a critical mass of these features in order to become American,

00:43:17.360 but you might adopt different.

00:43:19.620 You might not have the total heritage,

00:43:20.920 but you embrace the religion and the language and the culture and the tradition.

00:43:25.740 Maybe you,

00:43:26.200 you know,

00:43:26.420 don't have the full religion,

00:43:27.740 but you embraced all the other things.

00:43:29.240 You know,

00:43:29.660 you're,

00:43:30.040 you might be missing a feature or two,

00:43:31.580 or you might be deficient in one,

00:43:33.400 but you can kind of absorb enough of the others to,

00:43:36.180 to reach that level.

00:43:37.100 We need it to stop being a scientific category.

00:43:40.280 We need it to be something that's metaphysical and,

00:43:42.720 you know,

00:43:43.340 it's something that we acquire over time instead of just assuming it's that,

00:43:47.760 like I said,

00:43:48.040 that binary switch that comes in as soon as,

00:43:50.560 you know,

00:43:51.280 you,

00:43:51.540 I've hit these three metrics.

00:43:53.620 So therefore I am now American.

00:43:55.760 No,

00:43:56.280 absolutely.

00:43:56.900 And I mean,

00:43:57.120 I think the funny thing is,

00:43:58.400 and,

00:43:58.840 and I've actually borrowed,

00:44:00.540 it was,

00:44:01.500 it was at least with,

00:44:02.460 with you on your podcast that I first heard about it.

00:44:05.660 Although I know it's been used in many other contexts,

00:44:08.020 but the idea of citizenship as the ship of Theseus,

00:44:11.240 you know,

00:44:11.460 the idea of,

00:44:12.060 you know,

00:44:12.160 when you,

00:44:12.700 you replace certain boards,

00:44:14.440 you know,

00:44:15.100 at what point does it stop becoming the same ship?

00:44:17.940 And I think the kind of funny thing is you and I are both actually,

00:44:21.280 and we,

00:44:21.640 we should,

00:44:22.060 we should assume the center here.

00:44:23.460 We are raging moderates on this point.

00:44:26.080 Very much so.

00:44:27.460 We're not nationalists.

00:44:29.480 We're not saying that,

00:44:30.820 like we're not even,

00:44:32.820 I don't want to speak for you,

00:44:34.120 but I'm not,

00:44:34.440 I'm not saying,

00:44:35.040 oh,

00:44:35.500 you can only be an American if you have the Christian religion,

00:44:40.040 you know,

00:44:40.240 et cetera.

00:44:40.880 Like you can only be American if you know,

00:44:44.780 you were born in X place or whatever it is.

00:44:48.740 It's we're saying like,

00:44:49.940 yeah,

00:44:50.140 it's a multivariable thing.

00:44:51.860 It's,

00:44:52.340 it's like,

00:44:52.760 how well do you score at each of these things?

00:44:54.700 It's it's a process over time.

00:44:57.100 And it is a thing where we can assimilate different groups over time.

00:45:01.560 If it's not kind of this overwhelming crush.

00:45:04.900 And people might think that that view is by the way,

00:45:07.660 wrong.

00:45:08.200 I mean,

00:45:08.440 it's not that those other perspectives on this,

00:45:11.120 that would be more hardcore are illegitimate.

00:45:13.680 It's just that our view of this,

00:45:15.780 I think is totally it's moderate mainstream.

00:45:20.160 It should be common sense for most people.

00:45:23.400 And I think it would be a mistake and a danger for us to say,

00:45:26.920 this is some sort of hardcore test that we are putting on people.

00:45:30.340 I think it's a very reasonable test for,

00:45:33.140 you know,

00:45:33.340 how we're going to view you.

00:45:35.520 And you know,

00:45:36.560 like how much are you part of team America?

00:45:38.700 Right.

00:45:39.140 So.

00:45:40.660 Yeah.

00:45:40.820 I'm more than happy to be the squishy centrist moderate.

00:45:44.180 Like if I'm the moderate position,

00:45:45.300 then we're fine.

00:45:45.860 We're going to,

00:45:46.220 we're going to be just fine.

00:45:47.600 So,

00:45:48.280 so by all means.

00:45:49.240 We are.

00:45:50.060 And I think again,

00:45:50.600 it's,

00:45:50.840 it's important to assume the center.

00:45:52.260 It's fun.

00:45:52.620 I know a lot of people love to be,

00:45:54.340 Oh,

00:45:54.380 I'm the edge Lord.

00:45:55.460 You know,

00:45:55.600 I have these views,

00:45:57.080 but I think winning is about saying,

00:45:58.640 actually no,

00:46:00.360 you know,

00:46:00.720 I'm the mainstream.

00:46:01.820 You guys off there on the left,

00:46:04.320 who are trying to claim you can just,

00:46:06.020 you know,

00:46:06.760 come off the boat and you're just as American as George Washington.

00:46:09.820 You're the radical.

00:46:10.500 Yeah.

00:46:10.680 You're a radical.

00:46:11.460 That's a crazy radical view that even if you might've had the same

00:46:15.640 political rights in certain respects,

00:46:17.480 historically,

00:46:18.900 no Americans before the last,

00:46:20.880 you know,

00:46:21.100 few decades would have ever thought that way.

00:46:24.460 Right.

00:46:24.920 I think it's,

00:46:25.460 it's important for us to unashamedly,

00:46:27.340 you know,

00:46:28.060 take that view of our national identity.

00:46:30.980 All right,

00:46:31.500 Jeremy.

00:46:31.760 Well,

00:46:31.880 it's been a fascinating conversation and of course people should read

00:46:35.060 both the original piece,

00:46:36.460 the last generation that's over a compact and then your response.

00:46:39.840 I think it's a good one to punch to kind of understand the issue of

00:46:43.060 people are trying to grasp what's going on.

00:46:45.060 But where can people find your work if they want to catch what you said

00:46:48.200 about the piece?

00:46:49.460 Sure.

00:46:49.700 So the,

00:46:50.180 for this particular one,

00:46:51.220 they can go to Jeremy Carl at sub dot substack.com.

00:46:54.420 And it's the most recent piece out there.

00:46:57.420 I'm also fairly active on X,

00:47:00.180 although for various reasons,

00:47:01.740 I've been a little less active trying to be a little bit of a good boy in the

00:47:04.860 last several months because of other things outside the scope of this

00:47:09.880 conversation.

00:47:10.920 But you can find me at real Jeremy Carl there.

00:47:14.600 You can read my book,

00:47:15.700 the unprotected class,

00:47:16.880 which is a much more systematic view of anti-white racism and its

00:47:22.400 comprehensiveness in America.

00:47:23.960 than either the response that I gave or this original article that got a lot of

00:47:30.080 attention.

00:47:30.740 And so I'd say those would be the primary places that you can find me or

00:47:34.700 certainly my employer,

00:47:36.720 the Claremont Institute.

00:47:38.140 You should be following the stuff they do.

00:47:39.800 They're really,

00:47:40.460 it's a wonderful organization with a lot of the,

00:47:43.040 the boldest conservative thinkers out there.

00:47:46.100 Yeah.

00:47:46.600 And I'll just do this for,

00:47:48.480 for Jeremy,

00:47:49.820 since he might not,

00:47:50.760 you have to have read the protected class.

00:47:52.800 If you care about this issue at all,

00:47:54.600 if this means anything to you,

00:47:56.140 it said the definitive book on this basically over the last several years.

00:48:00.840 And also you should be giving it out as gifts.

00:48:03.100 This is something that this is not a bomb throwing book.

00:48:05.820 It's something that you can hand to a person who would otherwise be

00:48:09.980 uncomfortable discussing anti-white racism,

00:48:12.520 and they will find a measured,

00:48:14.480 thoughtful,

00:48:15.200 well-researched argument that I think they can be comfortable embracing,

00:48:19.580 accepting,

00:48:19.980 and discussing.

00:48:20.880 So if you've got friends,

00:48:21.940 you've got family,

00:48:22.960 you've got grandparents that are just not ready to have that conversation.

00:48:27.540 This is the kind of book you could give them for Christmas.

00:48:29.660 And in a month or two,

00:48:30.920 they'll be talking to you as if this is,

00:48:32.720 they'll be throwing around anti-white as if it's just normal nomenclature.

00:48:36.200 They should,

00:48:36.540 they should be discussing.

00:48:37.780 So make sure you do that.

00:48:39.240 Now let's head over to the questions of the people here.

00:48:42.400 We've got Cherry Coke Nixon who says,

00:48:44.080 you said woke wasn't put away.

00:48:45.520 So true.

00:48:46.040 The left sees the rights of failing sprintering and losing elections as ready

00:48:49.780 to strike.

00:48:50.180 They see the gay race communism back on the menu.

00:48:52.740 Red alert.

00:48:53.480 Well,

00:48:53.620 yeah,

00:48:53.740 I have a lot to say about the,

00:48:56.300 especially post Charlie Kirk assassination way that the right has,

00:48:59.140 has fumbled the ball.

00:49:01.640 But,

00:49:02.240 you know,

00:49:02.740 recently there was just a,

00:49:04.160 I forget which state's doing it,

00:49:06.680 but they taking down a statue of Robert E.

00:49:08.600 Lee and putting a civil rights,

00:49:09.740 you know,

00:49:10.300 a person back in where we're right back at the beginning of the woke,

00:49:13.660 you know,

00:49:13.880 statues must fall type of thing.

00:49:16.600 It's,

00:49:16.740 it's all back again.

00:49:17.620 So anyone who was telling you that the woke was going away,

00:49:20.420 the left was defeated.

00:49:21.420 It was over.

00:49:22.140 Like those people are delusional.

00:49:24.580 Yeah,

00:49:25.020 no,

00:49:25.220 absolutely.

00:49:25.700 I mean,

00:49:25.980 and we need to put the woke away.

00:49:27.900 It needs to be active voice.

00:49:29.240 Again,

00:49:29.540 that was the point of my article.

00:49:31.020 They are not going to put away the wokeness themselves out of the kindness of

00:49:34.340 their hearts.

00:49:35.140 Yeah.

00:49:35.500 You don't need this to put itself away.

00:49:37.680 You need to kill it.

00:49:38.600 You need to bury it.

00:49:39.460 You need to,

00:49:40.080 you know,

00:49:40.880 chain the coffin and burn it at sea.

00:49:44.280 You,

00:49:44.820 this is not a problem.

00:49:45.840 That's just going to work itself out for you.

00:49:47.920 Sorry.

00:49:48.380 I know conservatives hate to hear this,

00:49:49.860 but you're going to have to be political and you're gonna have to defeat

00:49:52.080 your enemies.

00:49:53.400 You can't grill.

00:49:54.860 No,

00:49:55.180 no grilling.

00:49:55.960 You earn the grilling.

00:49:57.040 Okay.

00:49:57.300 First,

00:49:57.740 first you win.

00:50:00.180 Machiavelli sucks says,

00:50:01.360 the last few companies I worked at were 80% Indian in it.

00:50:05.720 There's no way you can like Indians anymore.

00:50:09.120 Well,

00:50:09.280 I mean,

00:50:09.500 this is the problem,

00:50:10.620 right?

00:50:10.760 Everyone looks at the HB one scenario.

00:50:13.060 I think it's something like 70% of HB ones are all from one country.

00:50:16.900 At some point,

00:50:17.760 it's just ethnic nepotism.

00:50:19.180 I'm sorry.

00:50:19.780 Like,

00:50:20.320 I'm sure there's a lot of good people in India,

00:50:22.080 but there's no way that 70% of the world's talent resides there.

00:50:25.440 It's just ridiculous.

00:50:26.560 So we need to just be able to call a spade,

00:50:28.580 a spade,

00:50:28.980 right?

00:50:29.160 There are people who can contribute.

00:50:31.360 Two America who are Indian,

00:50:32.760 but we got the cognitive beachhead a long time ago.

00:50:36.380 Now we're just bringing every aunt,

00:50:37.920 uncle cousin you can possibly find.

00:50:40.240 They're obviously Britain brought in because of the color of their skin and

00:50:43.540 because of who they're related to and not because of their talent.

00:50:46.080 And we just need to be honest about that so that we can return to a place

00:50:49.300 where,

00:50:49.840 you know,

00:50:50.980 Americans can actually get job in the United States.

00:50:53.200 No,

00:50:53.640 this is exactly right.

00:50:54.640 And the H1B thing is,

00:50:56.140 is a classic example of this and where I would come back to somebody like

00:50:59.440 Vivek,

00:50:59.900 which is who's saying,

00:51:01.220 okay,

00:51:01.440 yes,

00:51:01.760 I'm just as American as you and I can be just as American as you.

00:51:05.000 Well,

00:51:05.260 what's your view on this?

00:51:06.380 Because it's a scam.

00:51:08.200 And it's,

00:51:08.800 I mean,

00:51:08.940 if you've look,

00:51:09.600 I mean,

00:51:09.740 I've researched H1Bs for years and years.

00:51:12.460 I mean,

00:51:12.740 although there's certainly some new things just in the last year,

00:51:14.940 I've discovered about just how much of a scam it's really become,

00:51:18.620 but really any objective person who has any claim to be on the right should

00:51:23.280 say the modern H1B is a scam.

00:51:25.960 And at the very least,

00:51:27.120 if you don't kill it entirely,

00:51:28.480 which would be my preference,

00:51:29.980 you would massively reform it.

00:51:31.740 But if you,

00:51:33.260 but if Vivek is being silent on that,

00:51:36.200 or what's more,

00:51:37.840 he even almost might be seen to be pushing that,

00:51:40.780 you know,

00:51:41.080 I think it's right to say,

00:51:42.320 well,

00:51:42.440 hey,

00:51:42.740 you know,

00:51:42.940 like where,

00:51:43.640 where are your loyalties here?

00:51:44.940 Right?

00:51:45.140 Like this is not me just picking on him because of the color of his skin.

00:51:50.480 It's like,

00:51:51.420 Hey,

00:51:52.040 you know,

00:51:52.300 this seems really incongruous with what other people on my coalition tend to

00:51:58.500 think about this.

00:51:59.180 And so if that happens to match up with your ethnic identity,

00:52:02.920 that you're kind of not being strong on this pretty important issue,

00:52:06.980 I think it's fine to,

00:52:08.520 to scrutinize that and say,

00:52:09.820 well,

00:52:09.920 how much are you on the team?

00:52:12.120 Again,

00:52:12.860 there are other people.

00:52:13.760 I'm not going to name them,

00:52:14.460 but I have friends of the same ethnic background as Vivek who are very

00:52:18.700 strong on this issue.

00:52:19.840 And so I feel like Nalen Haley actually also said some terrific things

00:52:24.840 about this online.

00:52:25.980 I feel like those guys are kind of aligned on team America,

00:52:29.300 but if you're not,

00:52:30.300 and you're claiming you're conservative,

00:52:32.280 well,

00:52:32.580 you know,

00:52:32.800 I'm going to look a little skeptically at that.

00:52:35.800 Yeah.

00:52:35.920 I mean,

00:52:36.220 I've lived in South Florida most of my life,

00:52:37.880 right?

00:52:38.080 So there's a lot of Hispanics in this area.

00:52:40.400 I'm pretty familiar with immigration,

00:52:42.220 many of which have been my friends.

00:52:43.640 And the ones that are predictably ones I can get along with the ones that I

00:52:46.580 actually want as neighbors are always the ones who wanted to slam the door

00:52:50.240 behind them.

00:52:50.780 They want to be the absolute last guy from Mexico in America because that's

00:52:55.840 not where they wanted to be.

00:52:56.840 They left for a reason.

00:52:58.140 They don't like that culture.

00:52:59.880 They don't want to be around people who behave that way.

00:53:02.200 They want to be around Americans.

00:53:03.500 They want to become as American as possible.

00:53:05.220 They want to behave like an American and they want to be surrounded by people

00:53:08.800 who also behave like Americans.

00:53:10.680 Those people I tend to trust.

00:53:12.360 They,

00:53:12.460 they,

00:53:12.640 they tend to have very low ethnic narcissism in group preference because they

00:53:17.180 specifically remove themselves from their in group.

00:53:20.520 Yeah.

00:53:20.920 The people who come here and are obviously like sending money back constantly.

00:53:25.000 They're sitting on the phone,

00:53:26.220 talking to people in the country the whole time.

00:53:28.720 They're only living in,

00:53:29.980 you know,

00:53:30.420 these kinds of ethnic conclaves.

00:53:31.740 It's like that's always where it becomes a problem.

00:53:34.200 Right.

00:53:34.600 Well,

00:53:34.720 I want them to have high in group preference for the in group that is

00:53:37.620 Americans.

00:53:38.360 That's what I'm saying.

00:53:39.220 Is that,

00:53:39.500 that's where I know you,

00:53:40.940 I'm not interested in shifting their in group.

00:53:43.180 Yeah.

00:53:43.280 Right.

00:53:43.580 Shift the in group,

00:53:44.260 which is appropriate.

00:53:45.120 Like that's where you are.

00:53:46.120 That's where your loyalty should lie.

00:53:48.000 Yeah.

00:53:49.460 Uh,

00:53:49.820 author in California says being a heritage American,

00:53:52.020 the 21st century is like being a hometown football game and noticing more and

00:53:56.720 more folks in the stands were wearing jerseys for an entirely

00:53:59.440 different sport.

00:54:00.360 Yep.

00:54:00.500 That's a,

00:54:01.060 that's a pretty good analogy there.

00:54:03.280 And Michael pole says great stream.

00:54:04.900 Orin Jeremy is a great guest.

00:54:06.120 Everyone join us and Orin tonight on drive time movie night.

00:54:09.460 Yes.

00:54:10.000 Please go,

00:54:10.680 uh,

00:54:10.940 and check out.

00:54:11.680 I'm going to be doing basically our best,

00:54:13.340 uh,

00:54:13.800 mystery science theater riffing,

00:54:15.280 uh,

00:54:15.780 uh,

00:54:16.280 uh,

00:54:17.120 uh,

00:54:17.780 uh,

00:54:18.120 uh,

00:54:18.180 uh,

00:54:18.680 uh,

00:54:19.680 imitation.

00:54:20.240 There we go.

00:54:20.540 I did it.

00:54:21.060 Uh,

00:54:21.360 yeah,

00:54:21.620 we're,

00:54:22.000 we're going to be,

00:54:22.560 we're going to be,

00:54:23.100 uh,

00:54:23.580 riffing on some movies here.

00:54:24.600 So make sure to go check that out tonight.

00:54:26.100 It'll be a fun time.

00:54:27.340 All right,

00:54:27.640 guys,

00:54:27.960 we're going to go ahead and wrap this up.

00:54:29.900 I want to thank everybody for coming by.

00:54:31.960 If it's your first time on YouTube,

00:54:33.820 you need to click the subscribe,

00:54:35.860 the bell,

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00:54:37.420 everything.

00:54:37.860 So,

00:54:38.020 you know,

00:54:38.440 when we go live,

00:54:39.400 YouTube hates conservatives.

00:54:40.480 So please go ahead and help us out there.

00:54:43.240 And of course,

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00:54:45.740 wanting to get these broadcasts as podcasts,

00:54:47.660 you need to go to your favorite podcast platform and subscribe to the Orr McIntyre show.

00:54:51.440 Uh,

00:54:51.680 this is going to be tomorrow.

00:54:52.700 Friday will be the last show,

00:54:53.920 uh,

00:54:54.360 before the Christmas break guys.

00:54:55.460 So if you want to get me a Christmas present,

00:54:57.580 go ahead and subscribe to things,

00:54:59.340 make sure your friends subscribe to things,

00:55:00.740 share things out.

00:55:01.320 That's the best thing you can do for me.

00:55:03.220 Thank you everybody for watching.

00:55:04.220 And as always,

00:55:04.920 I will talk to you next time.

00:55:10.480 Bye.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - December 17, 2025

No Country for White Men ｜ Guest： Jeremy Carl ｜ 12⧸17⧸25

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