The Auron MacIntyre Show - Oswald Spengler and the Second Religiousness ｜ Guest： Morgoth ｜ 4⧸1⧸26

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00:00:15.340 Hey everybody, how's it going?

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00:01:26.180 all right guys i am probably not the only person who has noticed that there is an increasing

00:01:32.840 interest in a return to religion very specifically christianity in the west now i want to believe

00:01:39.560 that this is a religious revival i pray for religious revival because i am myself i believe

00:01:44.700 in christian but i also recognize that there are parts of the historical cycle that seem to be

00:01:50.120 playing themselves out here many of the people talking about returning to religion seem to put

00:01:55.160 first the idea that the religion undergirds something important that we've lost and not so

00:01:59.600 much their own personal faith in Jesus Christ or the resurrection. And that got me thinking about

00:02:06.320 Spengler's idea of the second religiousness and what a civilization looks like when it tries to

00:02:11.900 recapture that metaphysical animating spark that really ignited its spread, but ultimately finds

00:02:18.540 itself in this kind of end of the cycle. Joining me to talk about this is, well, the only man who

00:02:24.440 I really want to discuss Oswald Spangler with. Morgoth, thank you so much for coming back on.

00:02:30.500 Nice to be on again. Just before we went live, I was saying I take old times doing a Spangler

00:02:35.580 stream. We haven't done one for a long time. Yeah, we had to blow the dust off of the Decline

00:02:41.560 of the West copies here. I think it's important, like you and I were talking about, it's so easy

00:02:46.980 with the kind of the churn of the news and people wanting to get the new thing out there

00:02:51.340 to abandon some of these thinkers that we had been looking at previously or to pass them by

00:02:56.960 because there's something that everyone else is talking about. But of course, the whole point is

00:03:01.760 that these are timeless understanding. The reason that you read people like Spangler is the broad

00:03:07.660 view of history that they bring to this. And so even as you look into other thinkers or you get

00:03:12.680 focused on current events, it's important to tie it back into the theory to this understanding that

00:03:18.100 we've been cultivating so that you don't lose this that ultimately we're hopefully weaving

00:03:22.880 something together that will help us better understand what's going on not just having

00:03:27.000 entertainment that we blow through every time we get to a new thinker a new author a new way of

00:03:31.600 looking at things yeah that's right and the the the second religiousness is an interesting one

00:03:38.200 because it's it you it gives you a sense of uh optimism and as usual spangler takes it away

00:03:45.940 but in a way which is a little bit different to the rest of it so obviously it comes

00:03:52.400 deep into the winter of the civilizational cycle i think because it's been a while like

00:03:58.480 it's important to just maybe there's some people who haven't been exposed to spangler but

00:04:04.060 he basically compares the life and death of a civilization a lot to uh the the growth of a

00:04:12.180 tree or a plant where it has this springtime vigor and then it expires itself and it gets

00:04:18.880 itself fully formed and then it heads into the winter autumn and the winter so it's all about

00:04:24.200 seasons and cycles and the second religiousness comes in very late it's basically it's the last

00:04:32.620 act it's it's when once you're into um winter and um it comes in alongside caesarism as well

00:04:41.740 and i was reading it before and just when i went into the text and i noticed that he says it is

00:04:46.680 actually a few many generations but he was writing this uh in the early 20th century so it's you know

00:04:54.720 i think we're kind of just entering that now and i think what will be interesting to touch on is

00:05:00.160 that i do see a lot of signs of that as well so how we how he actually comes into this is that if

00:05:07.080 you then go on to the the cycle itself you you have to think that we've been through a religious 0.63

00:05:14.500 phase we've been through the civilizational phase where it expanded which was kind of like this

00:05:20.720 summer but then when you head into autumn beginning in the summer you get rationalism

00:05:26.060 and it kind of comes to dominate and overwhelm everything and this informs how people actually

00:05:34.980 exist in the world the being is a word that spengler uses a lot and likes um and there's

00:05:41.800 being and becoming becoming and being and things like that and the the second religious list comes

00:05:49.140 in when the the rationalism has played itself out that it doesn't have any more fruit to bear

00:05:57.480 that doesn't have it doesn't have any more uh interesting ideas to deliver and i think we

00:06:04.120 there's a lot of signs uh around us that this is this is actually the case like this is this is

00:06:10.380 we are kind of just going into this yeah this is actually one of my bigger videos on spangler on

00:06:17.740 the channel as i pulled out a part of this though we're gonna have a much broader discussion on it

00:06:22.980 today but one of the more interesting things that he talks about as he looks at the society that is

00:06:28.140 moving towards the second religiousness is he explains that the people the civilization have

00:06:35.000 basically become exhausted with reason that reason has become too exact too constricting

00:06:41.780 The certitude that it brings is too confining, and people long for that moment of the animation, the spirit, the motivation, the wildness that existed earlier on when the civilization was more spontaneous and more driven by its vibrant nature, its vitality, rather than its cold logic.

00:07:04.280 And that once you've been locked into this cold logic, you start to cry out for something else.

00:07:09.680 And he even goes and makes a very interesting and important prediction, which is that we will walk away as Western peoples from science because science is too exact.

00:07:22.300 It's too rational.

00:07:23.520 It's too confining.

00:07:24.480 But also, and very interestingly, something that people don't think about very much, science is not this thing that you unlock permanently.

00:07:33.160 It's not like some tech tree in a video game where once you achieve the standard number of things that meet the threshold, you just always have access to that level of science.

00:07:45.140 Science is something practiced by cultures.

00:07:47.960 And if you don't have a culture that is cultivating the greatest minds for the specific purpose of practicing science, then you might have the theoretical knowledge locked away in books somewhere.

00:08:01.300 But people don't spend the time studying those books. They don't spend the time applying themselves to the practice of that science. And so while you might have discovered these things in the scientific way, you're not going to continue to practice them.

00:08:15.360 And I think we can see that pretty much across the West.

00:08:18.800 I mean, from the fact that we already have people calling into question science as a Western idea, right?

00:08:25.360 We can't have this type of math.

00:08:26.780 We can't have this type of reason because it's white person's math or reason. 0.80

00:08:30.560 It's the Western understanding.

00:08:32.700 It's somehow, you know, chauvinistic to prefer this way of thinking and rationalizing.

00:08:39.620 It unfairly constricts people of color and the way that they think through things. 1.00

00:08:44.540 but also the fact that we are clearly training fewer and fewer people from the West in these

00:08:50.020 disciplines. More and more, we're bringing in people from other nations, other civilizations

00:08:55.600 to fill spaces like doctor or, you know, these scientific disciplines. And they're not doing it

00:09:03.080 in the way that Westerners did. We've already talked, you know, in the America about kind of 0.91

00:09:07.620 the crisis we have with different people from India and Pakistan and other places, basically 0.99

00:09:14.000 falsifying their degrees before they come to the united states to engage in this so they're not

00:09:19.440 even building on top of that they're really just filling those spaces and not actually learning the

00:09:24.640 science or practicing the science the way that it was done previously so i think we can see the very

00:09:30.040 beginnings of what is a you know pretty bold prediction from spengler all across the west

00:09:34.660 right now yeah and i think what's interesting is that when if you go back 100 years to when he was

00:09:41.800 writing um science was seen like sort of the culmination of science empirical uh data

00:09:50.520 modernism it was kind of like these things are now preserved these are now absolute truths

00:09:57.480 and what we saw with post-modernism and i think this is where you begin to see what maps onto the

00:10:04.260 into the west um that what post-modernism does is it kind of kicks away a lot of the foundations

00:10:12.220 of the science and what what the kind of institutionalized science or certainties

00:10:18.980 around identity things which were taken for granted the received wisdom is then brought

00:10:25.460 into question and and kind of deconstructed and broken apart and that this is of course

00:10:32.340 exactly where we are and spengler alludes to this although he doesn't call it post-modernism

00:10:36.980 but he it's the same it's the same process in play and so what it ends up is it reminds me of

00:10:44.660 an old youtube video i did about contrapoints um about the broken violin where at the end you're

00:10:52.360 just left with a kind of big mess uh where this has not really anything to get meaning from there's

00:10:59.300 not really any any certainties and it's within this vacuum that the second religiousness begins

00:11:05.720 to form and i think we can see it everywhere around us today the i mean there's all these

00:11:12.720 different things which first of all i think what you have to do is pass a couple of things where

00:11:19.380 you've got this schism in the winter of civilization between the metropolis and the

00:11:24.800 fellaheen and both are in the same late like winter um but what they both have different

00:11:33.620 understandings of the world but they both are moving towards a second religiousness

00:11:39.500 the metropolis which you could put in with woke uh and and the technocracy and ai and all of this

00:11:47.980 kind of thing but then you've also got the fellaheen which would represent populism in the west

00:11:53.540 This kind of exhaustion with constant progress, a yearning for the old ways, a wish to be kind of left alone on the land.

00:12:03.980 And this is a major schism within Spengler's work.

00:12:07.480 And what I think is interesting is that you see manifestations of a kind of second religiousness in both camps.

00:12:14.580 I mean, you would probably say that woke, which I would agree with is that, or just these kind of globalist highfalutin ideals.

00:12:23.540 which are based on nothing but, like, of kind of faith.

00:12:27.160 But then you also, on the Fellaheen side, 0.97

00:12:29.940 there is, of course, more interested in Christianity again,

00:12:34.020 which is the obvious one here.

00:12:36.300 But I think it's also important to say that

00:12:38.740 without the basis of rationalism and empirical truths,

00:12:44.580 you begin to get this, things begin to get unmoored.

00:12:48.040 And one of those, I would say, is just this complete scepticism.

00:12:51.480 You could say that, for example, conspiracy theories are all this kind of this idea that there's a hidden hand navigating everything, navigating.

00:13:02.320 So you begin to see these strange things.

00:13:05.000 And the hallmark of it is that it isn't entirely based in empirical truths or rationalism and is more intuitive or sort of faith based.

00:13:15.640 And all of this is like the compost, what the second religiousness will be. 0.98

00:13:21.480 Now, the most healthy, of course, would be returning to just Christianity. 1.00

00:13:26.500 But as you said earlier at the beginning, that has to come from inwards and not as a kind of sort of reactionary response because society as a whole is going to hell in a handbasket.

00:13:40.040 Well, that's why I think that Spengler's understanding here is so interesting because he actually lays out the transition into kind of some of the cults that we're talking about here.

00:13:50.040 So, you know, he kind of puts himself at the beginning of, I think, the you could say the materialistic cultish precursor to the second religiousness.

00:13:59.400 So he says that in a period of materialism, as you start to approach the second religiousness, but you're not there yet, you get this period of kind of stylish cults that aren't very serious.

00:14:12.580 They aren't taken as very deep.

00:14:15.460 They don't create deep traditions.

00:14:16.720 they don't draw on any deep spiritual tradition of the people they're more like these really

00:14:22.140 cosmopolitan uh fashionable uh elite moments and you know he starts pointing to kind of all the

00:14:29.440 different occult practices that were starting to pop up in his time and kind of urban environments

00:14:35.060 he looks at the cult of isis back in the roman republic and he says like these are things that

00:14:41.020 ultimately were like really shallow uh they're just as shallow as the materialistic stuff and

00:14:46.000 they aren't really taken deeply seriously but they kind of run through your society and i think you

00:14:51.460 could see that certainly uh through the different kind of like weird small urban cults we see pop

00:14:57.680 up uh you know especially i think of several different ones in america from different you

00:15:02.860 know like sex cults that have popped up or different occultist understandings uh that have

00:15:08.020 popped up uh you know the you could even look at maybe something like silicon valley and what

00:15:13.000 they're doing now trying to synthesize at some level uh you know a level of christianity with

00:15:18.500 kind of this techno futurism uh that they're also but they're they're definitely involving

00:15:22.960 more spirituality into this but he says that this is kind of the the precursor to the true

00:15:28.520 second religiousness where we start to see the resurgence of like old forms of religion so like

00:15:35.320 real christianity you know they can't do it exactly right we'll get into that in a little

00:15:39.580 bit i guess here but the point being is this this moment of transition from kind of the materialist

00:15:44.800 you know narrow elite cults then leading into perhaps a revival of at least attempts to revive

00:15:53.660 those classic spiritual understandings i think that might be where we're at he was at kind of

00:15:58.740 the beginning of that we're at the end of that stage and then perhaps after that follows more

00:16:05.180 the focus on the traditional because i am seeing more and more people look away from those elite

00:16:11.180 cults uh those fashionable understandings like woke i think woke you can obviously see like

00:16:16.780 echoes of a bastardized christianity it's clearly a christian heresy at some level uh but we're

00:16:22.940 starting to see that i think transition into real looks at returning or real attempts to returning

00:16:29.320 to christianity though as we both know from reading spangler that itself is going to be a

00:16:33.900 much harder task yeah i would also say um climate change has had uh sort of echoes of this as well

00:16:42.060 and i also that it's it's they they tend to be typically faustian what i mean is they'll have

00:16:49.760 they'll be um coded encoded with the traits of faustian civilization which is this sort of

00:16:56.960 universal striving towards the infinite and an endless motion particularly in machines

00:17:03.800 and so if you look at something like uh climate change it essentially it takes the world as one

00:17:11.100 who or like in the earlier era you could say it was like an organism in fact they did do that

00:17:17.760 this climate change of the 1970s with the gaia model and all of that was the world the world as

00:17:23.880 one giant organism interconnected but the more recent sort of carbon reduction schemes it's much

00:17:31.560 more mechanistic and technocratic and it essentially looks at the world no longer as one

00:17:38.100 giant organism but one giant machine which is also this kind of transition from something more rooted

00:17:45.740 more organic to something more mechanistic and industrial and rational and when you look at it

00:17:53.120 like that you and you bring in that kind of faustian element you can see that the the weather

00:17:58.900 changing climate patterns is then it becomes something to believe in but you you get that

00:18:07.080 transition you get that change from the world as an interconnected machine which we can tamper with

00:18:15.180 and we can reduce carbon emissions and we can have windmills and solar power in order to change the

00:18:21.460 weather itself we we can have a so there's there's kind of no bounds on the ambition there but then

00:18:27.600 you see that actual science seems to take a background uh go into the background and you get

00:18:34.540 this kind of apocalyptic weird scenario about the end of days you think of Greta Thunberg at the

00:18:41.380 United Nations which is I mean just the idea of the United Nations is is a western construct

00:18:47.200 from our civilization and not another one as well.

00:18:51.160 And so you can kind of lump all of these things in.

00:18:54.980 And then when you get the AI stuff, to get back to the main gist of it,

00:19:00.900 it's this kind of failure of rationalism where people will begin to view

00:19:06.180 the world more like medieval peasants, especially the Fellaheen. 0.99

00:19:12.180 But you can't undo the previous sort of journey of history

00:19:16.800 And so I remember Mark Andreessen, when he was talking about the grand future of AI, and he was saying the future, in the future, the masses, their world picture will more resemble the world inhabited by medieval peasants, because they won't understand the world around them.

00:19:40.460 they'll see things that they just can't understand and i've got to say like that describes me

00:19:46.520 perfectly when i'm talking on the phone and i get an advert on the television which is related to

00:19:53.100 what i'm talking on the phone you you and it's like how is that even possible and it's because

00:19:59.140 i don't understand the technology i'm i'm i'm a total technophobe and so i this isn't sort of me

00:20:06.440 looking down on the on the silly plebs i'm one of them like i i kind of just throw my hands up and 0.94

00:20:12.440 admit i'm part of the fella in and so eventually the the world functions in a way which you just

00:20:19.480 can't possibly comprehend and so this is where you that leads into new superstitions uh under

00:20:28.600 kind of just throwing your hands up and moving away from it all and have it in a world which

00:20:34.520 which is more like a world where a cat would put a curse on you

00:20:38.880 or there was a goblin behind a tree or this kind of thing

00:20:41.740 because you can no longer process it and make sense of it.

00:20:45.760 Yeah, that's important because he talks about this desire

00:20:49.640 to resublimate the reason to these spiritual connections.

00:20:55.260 But as you say, the science still exists.

00:20:57.320 So he kind of talks about how you used to have chemistry

00:21:00.620 and physics and mathematics and they were separate,

00:21:03.360 But then they kind of start subjugating themselves to each other because everything is interconnected and they have influence on each other.

00:21:09.460 And it creates this like larger network and everything has to like fit together.

00:21:13.500 And then finally, once this becomes far too complicated for the average person and you go through this like approach to second religiousness, the desire becomes to like kind of still have that knowledge somewhere, still recognize that you've made those scientific advancements, but to bring them in line with kind of this new spiritual focus.

00:21:31.700 And again, I think that's why you start seeing more and more Silicon Valley guys discussing AI in very spiritual terms, because we're getting to the edge of how we can unify these things and speak about them intelligently.

00:21:45.600 As you say, you know, there was a moment, you know, I love The Ancient City by Festel de Colange because it really changes your brain.

00:21:54.580 It rewires your brain because you have seen the world your entire life discussed as a rational thing.

00:22:02.880 And, of course, we understand how the processes work.

00:22:05.320 We're modern men.

00:22:06.100 We've been through the Enlightenment.

00:22:07.540 We grasp this, right?

00:22:08.680 And then you slowly realize that actually if anyone you knew had to make electricity or even in many cases repair a car or a computer, you know, the joke now is that millennials are the only people who can, you know, actually fix computers because the boomers are too old and the zoomers never learned, you know, in between like the magic box just works when they touch it. 0.95

00:22:30.740 And so like there's a sweet spot of people who can actually work on these things.

00:22:35.000 But as all everything around you becomes too complicated to actually explain through technology, technological understanding, you start to realize that you've been faking it like most of your technological explanations for how the world work are just as religious as any religious understanding.

00:22:51.780 When you look at the behaviors in the ancient city of the ancient Greeks or the Romans, their entire world view is undergirded by the spiritual understanding that metaphysics dominates their life.

00:23:04.180 And everything has an explanation in this rubric in the same way that everything we do has a scientific explanation.

00:23:10.100 And while you might look at some of those spiritual ones and say, well, those are silly, once you actually start evaluating the scientific explanations, the rational explanations for how we run our world, they don't make sense either.

00:23:20.640 And they become less and less likely to make sense as the world becomes more complex.

00:23:25.220 So you're right to say that ultimately what Spangler sees is that we kind of abandon this explanation form altogether, which is interesting because, you know, I had Nick Land and Alexander Dugan on my show having a discussion.

00:23:38.880 And these men both see us approaching kind of this moment, this possible singularity, this possible postmodern kind of bottleneck through which our civilization must pass.

00:23:50.000 And for Land, this is a moment of true Faustian transformation. Like we can do this Nietzschean trick to break the cycle of history and escape into the stars as like non-human entities that are manifestations of technological understandings.

00:24:06.980 And for Dugan, this is a moment where the technological understanding kind of collapses into itself and spirituality reenters the conversation. But both men, despite having like very different views about where humanity should or could go in this moment, we're both excited to see spirituality reenter into the conversation because it's a clear sign that something fundamental has shifted in our political understanding.

00:24:34.020 And the fact that people are running around and talking about demons and these kind of things in normal political conversation shows that we are in a radically different era.

00:24:44.120 You know, that's something that would have gotten the most religious right person of the 1980s laughed out of the room.

00:24:49.380 And now it's something that a guy like Tucker Carlson will talk about when he's talking about politics.

00:24:54.260 And that is just a fundamental shift in the attempt to rationalize everything and moves us back towards that more mystical, spiritual, peasant style understanding.

00:25:04.020 yeah i tend towards the view that there's gonna there is just to go back on the the schism that

00:25:09.780 i saw earlier is that you will see people i don't think we'll disappear into space i think it's going

00:25:15.220 to be there may be a few elites will but i think it's going to be disappearing into ai uh more and

00:25:21.220 more which again is like infinite but then you're also going to have the people who try and go back

00:25:27.220 to the land now in spenglar the metropolis is constantly making demands on the the kind of the

00:25:33.700 people of the land well i mean just a sort of minor way would be the way all their children

00:25:39.220 are expected to go into these these meat grinder cities where they won't have children they live 1.00

00:25:45.380 in apartment blocks and it's all pretty depressing but i think more and more what we see and i wrote

00:25:53.480 an article a few years ago asking if the west was an elephant on stilts is that a bit like with the

00:25:59.920 climate change you can have uh all these grand abstract ideas you can have like faust the

00:26:07.800 infinite knowledge you can unlock and learn everything but there is like material constraints

00:26:15.080 which are going to put a block on some of these things and and when i wrote the the elephant on

00:26:20.180 stilts essay i was basically looking at these you have all of these high ideas but the internet

00:26:26.780 functions for example the connection between me and you it all comes down to just a few cables

00:26:33.340 dangling over rocks in in the atlantic basically it's it's very it's all very fragile i mean this

00:26:40.800 is very topical for what's going on in the world around us today which we don't talk about because

00:26:47.000 that's all everybody's talking about but you see all of a sudden there's these uh there is these

00:26:52.560 material constraints on what you can do and so much so like as you mentioned earlier that people

00:26:59.760 just forget about this stuff like people people forget that the reason we have so many people on

00:27:06.260 earth is because fertilizer certain kinds of gas that turn into fertilizer which goes on to create

00:27:14.060 huge amounts of food all of which is unnatural and very precarious when you look at these supply

00:27:21.160 chains um or or just general connections in terms of the internet and so i think you you will see

00:27:28.680 that schism but i tend towards the kind of wandering around with goats in the ruins side of

00:27:35.480 it and that is the people who will refine a traditional christianity that is the people

00:27:42.280 who will we really sort of go back to churches i would actually it's already happening to to

00:27:49.160 to a certain degree but the difference with the the the second religious than the first

00:27:56.760 is that in springtime it comes it has a kind of spring sap and vigor to it um and it's a kind of

00:28:06.020 revealing of the world in a spiritual light whereas in the second religiousness i think

00:28:11.640 it's more of an escape i think i think it's more of a wearily opening the church door and saying

00:28:19.840 i've had enough i've had enough of the world around whereas in the past it wouldn't be that

00:28:24.800 way at all you know i was watching a gardening program uh there's a british gardener called

00:28:31.000 monty don and he was uh he went to japan it was like a special and he went to the zen buddhist

00:28:39.440 gardens anywhere one which had been around for hundreds and hundreds of years it was very old

00:28:44.880 and it's hard um the japanese don't go in for grass very much but they cultivate moss

00:28:51.520 and it looks beautiful you have these sort of lawns of moss which they carefully manicure

00:28:57.600 and it would have like one cherry tree or a bonsai tree in the middle of it and the idea was to create

00:29:03.680 this emptiness this empty space where you could meditate and just you know find a kind of your

00:29:10.760 spiritual zen if you like um and now then he went to tokyo like in in modern time just a few years

00:29:18.300 ago and on top of the the skyscrapers in tokyo they had recreated this to an extent but this time

00:29:26.280 it would have a rock in the middle and it would be surrounded by uh these fine tiny little gravel

00:29:32.860 pellets and then they would sort of rake it in such a way that it would look like the waves and

00:29:38.700 and the point that i'm making is that you you have the original sort of flourish which is connected

00:29:44.640 to the land uh and is sort of unconsciously spiritual but then you've got this in the city

00:29:52.680 they return to it they try to recreate that form again but as as almost like a coping mechanism

00:29:58.760 with the modern world because japan has had a long and troubled history and this this to me i

00:30:04.340 was watching it and i was thinking this is like the secondary literature it's a kind of perfect

00:30:08.320 little encapsulation of it and how how the form actually goes well and this is what really got me

00:30:14.600 thinking about this again and why i wanted to talk to you about it is it's you look at the

00:30:19.860 rise of someone like jordan peterson and that's very clearly a man who's attempting to approach

00:30:24.520 spiritual truth but through this like very rationalistic uh you know academic dry understanding

00:30:31.840 of an eternal thing and then you get people like Ayaan Hirsi Ali who talk about how they're becoming

00:30:38.980 Christian despite having been like one of the main forces in new atheism but when you ask about kind

00:30:45.140 of why they're doing it the answer is not I truly believe in the saving power of Jesus Christ and

00:30:50.980 what he has done in my life and what he can do in the lives of my family or my children the answer

00:30:56.520 is well it's clear that this is where our civilization comes from and it's clear that we

00:31:01.860 need something like this and i'm noticing this explanation more and more especially as people

00:31:07.160 go back to catholicism or orthodoxy or anglicanism they're not going first and foremost because

00:31:15.760 they feel a deep spiritual draw or need it becomes something that they recognize as a fundamental to

00:31:24.080 their civilization that their civilization has lost in some way you even hear guys like Richard

00:31:28.840 Dawkins who obviously still isn't declaring himself a Christian but says I'm a cultural Christian

00:31:33.500 even if I'm an atheist because like I recognize that this is where my culture comes from and I'd

00:31:38.680 rather hear church carols than the Islamic call to prayer even though he doesn't understand that

00:31:43.640 the cut flowers can't possibly drive away like actual hot religion and so you have this uh

00:31:50.180 especially in the cities i feel like the urbanites especially embracing this like tactical return to

00:31:56.820 christianity a lot of people are in especially america are moving to catholicism because it

00:32:02.060 infers some kind of status if you're in you know certain elite circles uh you know that that's the

00:32:08.060 religion that you go to if you want to have you know a network or that kind of thing so it it

00:32:13.260 kind of creates this moment where yes people are returning to religion uh but as you say

00:32:18.940 out in the hinterlands it's perhaps a weariness that returns them to that religion as where

00:32:24.560 in the urban centers in the in this in the uh you know metropolitan uh existence it seems to be this

00:32:31.780 desire to regain something functional about like a more rationalistic human approach rather than a

00:32:39.540 recognition of a deep spiritual moving vital need to plug back into what animates your society

00:32:47.000 yeah and especially in the um out in the hinterlands as you say i think that there's

00:32:54.060 still some flickers of like an actual genuine faith and what comes with that in a time of such

00:33:01.700 chronic atomization as that we live in it is actually community yeah that's become such a

00:33:08.500 it's sort of tainted word these days but you get this you get this idea well i'm not going to be

00:33:14.920 alone there um and i can it isn't just that you kind of go to the church and then you're you're

00:33:21.420 kind of bored and you're tired as you see it because you're going through the motions it's

00:33:26.540 a function but that the people that you meet there are going to be kind of of a similar mindset as

00:33:32.460 yourself and you can go for a few beers on on on a night time with some of the men and so you end up

00:33:40.240 reconnecting and i think that comes with it as well i'm speaking a little bit personally here

00:33:45.620 actually um which i mentioned on the blog the other day that there's this sense that if i need

00:33:53.040 something somebody's there and as time gets harder and harder uh that would become more acute and so

00:34:00.620 i think what that results in is a more um not like a more more investment in the church until

00:34:11.360 eventually you just kind of imbibed and it's not this well i need to save civilization uh you know

00:34:19.020 because the muslims are going to take over or everybody's degenerate but it's it's more personal 0.99

00:34:24.920 thing and i think it would come through that absolutely now another interesting aspect that 0.63

00:34:31.460 you hinted at earlier is the way that the second religiousness interacts with caesarism obviously

00:34:37.500 we know that caesarism is a critical part of the cycle uh for spangler uh that it kind of breaks

00:34:45.120 the gridlock of the bureaucratic sclerotic institutions inside of the civilization it

00:34:51.580 it reaches for a vital moment and unifies behind kind of this one figure. And obviously,

00:34:58.560 I think a lot of people are looking at perhaps Bukele or others as possible examples of a wave

00:35:05.380 of Caesarism that could be entering into Western civilization. I think a lot of people looked

00:35:10.080 at Trump initially as a possible Caesar, a precursor to Caesar. It's become very clear

00:35:15.440 that at best he would be uh perhaps a gracchi uh to to a eventual uh approach of caesar uh but

00:35:23.060 for the second religiousness and the way that this interacts is that spengler points out that

00:35:28.560 after you get the caesarism in rome or in china you start to get these imperial cults and that

00:35:35.220 becomes kind of where you know after the period of caesarism it starts to form these imperial cults

00:35:40.820 And they but they eventually kind of get reformed back into a a facsimile of the old religion. 0.69

00:35:50.040 And so what you get is this kind of synchronistic collapse of kind of the different religious motives happening happening simultaneously after the, you know, kind of Caesarean moment.

00:36:03.960 And that's what creates this kind of post-imperial cult that's kind of an amalgamation of the different successful spiritual traditions that are kind of moving through the zeitgeist of the moment.

00:36:15.820 And you could definitely see how that would occur if you have some aspect of like a hero worship with somebody who kind of brings the society together and becomes that catalyst along with remnants of Christianity and perhaps like in America, something like Mormonism or some other related religious practices that are floating around but haven't completely congealed.

00:36:41.840 Maybe you bring in some of that AI, you know, Silicon Valley religion. Maybe you bring in some of that climate religion, you know, all these different spiritual aspects and quasi spiritual aspects kind of fuse together inside a shell of like kind of the old religion and the Caesarism.

00:37:00.840 and it kind of becomes this new uh way that people kind of reach towards but obviously it's

00:37:07.320 like a very uh twisted uh and and and strange version of uh the original religion that kind

00:37:13.680 of founded everything yeah i mean i think one which i would just say as well would be this

00:37:20.660 the con what what's baked into this is distrust of institutions and then that gives rise to these

00:37:27.200 these conspiracy theories and the reason why i bring that up again is because you get something

00:37:31.300 which is almost sort of gnostic in its way where it's kind of like we we are these like little

00:37:39.080 ants that are running around and there's these higher powers which we can't comprehend

00:37:42.960 and for some reason i think that's definitely a factor in in the hinterland kind of thinking

00:37:50.060 about it there's people are looking at events in the world now and already beginning to formulate

00:37:55.260 a kind of, it's all

00:37:58.100 a great master plan type

00:38:00.160 theories on it. I think on

00:38:01.960 the kind of, what

00:38:04.000 was passing my mind as well when you were talking

00:38:06.160 about this kind of new breed of

00:38:07.960 Christianity, I think Pete Hegseth 1.00

00:38:09.880 is like that.

00:38:12.000 It's

00:38:12.080 post-modern,

00:38:16.100 but it's coded with this kind

00:38:18.020 of crusader sort of

00:38:20.120 patter and sales pitch.

00:38:22.880 And it

00:38:23.480 comes across as fake

00:38:26.200 but you

00:38:28.140 can see that he is actually

00:38:29.940 touching on something

00:38:31.360 that was there at some point

00:38:33.820 I do

00:38:36.040 actually, it's not

00:38:37.940 completely

00:38:38.800 lacking any substance whatsoever

00:38:42.140 it's just that it's

00:38:43.800 bastardised and so far removed

00:38:45.900 from any kind of healthy 0.98

00:38:47.540 spiritualism and you could say

00:38:49.900 that it's all purely cynical

00:38:51.960 and this kind of thing

00:38:53.220 But I think another aspect of a second religiousness is this kind of weariness of cynicism.

00:39:02.380 I think it's after that.

00:39:04.340 It's after you're tired.

00:39:08.300 Where do you go when you just don't trust anything?

00:39:11.360 Where do you find meaning when you don't trust anything?

00:39:14.180 And I think, again, it's this after postmodernism.

00:39:18.080 I wrote an article for Islander magazine a while ago,

00:39:24.540 in the last edition, I think it was,

00:39:26.800 and I kind of touched on the meta-modern aspects of Warhammer 40K.

00:39:35.260 And I was explaining or getting into the sort of,

00:39:38.840 what people misunderstand about the,

00:39:41.300 there's this endless debate between Game of Thrones

00:39:44.240 and Tolkien fans online.

00:39:48.080 And they bring in some of these ideas.

00:39:50.780 But what I was pointing out was that actually people think

00:39:53.280 that the Game of Thrones is of the moment, but it isn't.

00:39:55.780 It's actually of the 90s when he wrote it.

00:39:58.560 Whereas Warhammer 40K more accurately describes where we are

00:40:05.020 than what Game of Thrones, Gen X kind of fiction does.

00:40:10.180 Because it takes all of the sort of broken narratives

00:40:14.380 and deconstructions.

00:40:15.700 Everything's a lie, of course.

00:40:17.060 You know, I don't want to get into the law, but when you dig into the law, you realize that they've got all of these truths are not true, but they carry on regardless.

00:40:26.980 And I think it's interesting because of all the everything which is coming, which will come in the second religiousness, will be, as you say, these cobbled together bits and pieces.

00:40:38.180 And so you can kind of unironically enjoy something like Warhammer 40K and you can feel that it's getting at something deeper.

00:40:47.060 than other sort of popular franchises.

00:40:50.520 And that comes forth in the world of metamodernism

00:40:54.080 because it's actually after postmodern.

00:40:57.160 It's after the endlessly cynical Machiavellians

00:41:01.480 when you just need something to believe in.

00:41:06.020 And I think that's where we have...

00:41:08.040 The Zoomers are like this, I think. 1.00

00:41:10.260 The Zoomers are quite earnest and poor-faced in this regard. 1.00

00:41:15.420 who it's kind of strange i mean i i was telling i watched casablanca last night but it would be a

00:41:22.340 whole other tangent so i'll leave it there but there was there was some interesting things in

00:41:26.660 there once i get started on this stuff i tend to go on and on well i just watched casablanca a week

00:41:32.860 or two ago so maybe we'll have to reconvene for a casablanca review it's fascinating yeah it's

00:41:38.480 fascinating but um you know as you're speaking there i i think about the zoomers and the need

00:41:46.460 to kind of meme themselves into things right like that's as you say like we've gotten this moment of

00:41:52.280 like just shattered epistemology in the modern world we've scaled civilization too high we used

00:41:58.640 to have these like grand uh you know institutions that more or less helped us hold the civilization

00:42:06.060 of that scale together by mediating information and deciding what the core narrative would be

00:42:11.200 things like radio and television and movies were able to unify public opinion the the news media

00:42:18.080 were able to kind of keep us on the same page even though we had very different lives and didn't

00:42:23.540 experience the same things and were radically apart in many of these things and what has happened

00:42:28.960 now is with the internet and just the disintermediation of information all of that has

00:42:35.280 just gone out the window and so zoomers are just getting bombarded by uh just clips of different

00:42:42.100 parts of culture and religion and ideas and understandings and science and and art and music

00:42:49.760 and all this stuff and they none of it makes sense none of it's got a a core uh defining

00:42:55.000 through line that there's no institution that can hold it together we can see all our institutions

00:43:00.260 panicking because they can't hold it together and so the zoomers are this weird amalgamation 1.00

00:43:05.180 of like clips and memes and it's very easy it seems to like earnestly invest in something

00:43:12.660 through like this constant blast of like different uh disintermediated uh snippets of information

00:43:20.620 and beliefs and and spirituality and all these things and so you come out of it with like this

00:43:26.640 somewhat sincere but like ultimately wildly disjointed amalgamation of ideas and that

00:43:33.480 really creates a fascinating kind of post-modern subject to to interact with because um they're

00:43:40.940 they're they're beyond the cynicism like living in the just like complete cynicism of prior

00:43:47.040 generations like perhaps gen x or or millennials uh but they also don't seem to have like a coherent

00:43:52.660 grounded context uh to to you know there's not true community that like ultimately kind of

00:43:59.080 organically builds the world around them and so it really is this strange unscientific irrational

00:44:06.540 uh composition of the way you understand the world that could be radically different from

00:44:15.160 someone else uh in the kind of in the same area but only is really bound together by like your

00:44:21.020 shared swapping of like different

00:44:23.300 memes like having a different clip

00:44:25.260 from a TV show or a movie

00:44:27.080 or a book or a

00:44:29.260 music sample will

00:44:31.120 somehow bind you together in a way that

00:44:33.240 like a shared worldview simply didn't

00:44:35.200 yes it's

00:44:37.380 like it's like time

00:44:39.140 has been flattened because

00:44:41.220 if I mean

00:44:42.600 I'm not going to have a Zoom as 0.99

00:44:44.580 Facebook YouTube homepage

00:44:47.300 but when I mean

00:44:48.760 it's all TikTok isn't it

00:44:51.020 But then if I go on my YouTube homepage,

00:44:56.420 I would have the soundtrack from The Wicker Man would be there.

00:45:00.780 There may be some sort of 90s Britpop stuff.

00:45:04.600 There's this ambient stuff that I have on when I'm writing sometimes.

00:45:08.960 There'd be a bit of Philip Glass on.

00:45:10.880 And then there'd be the soundtrack from Rambo 2.

00:45:15.140 And it's all of this jumbled up.

00:45:17.780 up uh so it's all it's all out of sync and all over the place it's a complete mess whereas I'm

00:45:25.520 old enough where all of those different sort of things would be in their own categories they'd be

00:45:31.640 in their own place um and they'd be in sync it would be even in my mind it would be all in

00:45:38.540 different compartments in fact it still is but for a Zuma that's that isn't that it's presented

00:45:45.620 They understand that as it's been presented to them

00:45:48.840 as a big jumbled mess.

00:45:50.980 And so this is the whole culture as well.

00:45:53.940 But what's kind of scary is that assuming, you know,

00:45:58.960 we don't get the energy crisis and the collapse

00:46:01.940 and the internet goes off or the wires get cut or whatever,

00:46:07.040 it's like to get back to your sort of Nick land,

00:46:11.080 that is where it will go.

00:46:12.580 So it will go in this kind of purely sort of.

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00:46:45.880 A completely different way of imbibing reality.

00:46:52.640 It's horrifying to think of, to be honest.

00:46:55.800 And what comes out of that would be a kind of a religiousness of sorts,

00:47:01.360 because it wouldn't be rooted in any, even in terms of identity,

00:47:05.420 it wouldn't be a sort of 90s identity or a millennial identity or the 80s it would be

00:47:12.720 an amalgamation of everything but then also what's current and so what comes out of that in terms of

00:47:19.360 some kind of metaphysical being just sounds horrifying like it's i cannot this is the this

00:47:27.080 is the bad outcome yeah well this this is the bad outcome of not being able to detach ourselves this

00:47:35.360 to me is the ruin the road to complete civilization or ruin and it's actually the people of the land

00:47:43.440 uh who've got the best chance yeah and this is where it gets interesting because of course

00:47:49.440 Nick Land is drawing from uh Deleuze and Guattari who are post-modern leftist philosophers for kind

00:47:57.200 of this understanding of the flattening of the world and this this you know understanding that

00:48:02.920 can strike out in different places in different directions constantly because it doesn't have

00:48:07.320 any kind of hard center and for us that's terrifying because we believe in like a

00:48:13.240 transcendent truth a transcendent understanding of a form that does you know belong to the world

00:48:19.600 and in which we should exist but for a lot of these guys the idea is to transcend that to

00:48:25.260 escape that this is the ultimate faustian goal this is the ultimate uh you know again like

00:48:30.000 Nietzschean escape of the human into something new it transitions into something new and better

00:48:36.180 but for those of us who recognize humanity as something worth preserving we don't see it that

00:48:41.740 way we see it as oh actually this is we don't that's the worst possible outcome what we want

00:48:47.040 is this collapse back into the human which is more what Dugan is looking for and that that's

00:48:54.380 why I wanted to get them in the same room that's why I found them interacting so fascinating because

00:48:58.800 they both recognize i think the same thing we recognize here that that we're talking about

00:49:03.920 and they both want like radically different outcomes from this moment uh but it it really

00:49:09.900 does does depend on how you view uh the human subject if you think that that is ultimately

00:49:15.100 something worth preserving or if there is something about humanity that can ultimately

00:49:20.260 give birth to something greater and far uh more uh interesting to to pursue uh then perhaps you'll

00:49:26.660 side with the idea that creating this kind of messy human existence leaning towards a entirely

00:49:33.300 non-human existence is ultimately something that is worth aiming towards but that said before we

00:49:39.220 get we're gonna run out of time and we got some super chat so i don't want to run over but before

00:49:44.700 we go when we were off the air you mentioned the fact that spangler uh believed that islam is not

00:49:52.000 actually in uh this like protea this like spring moment but is itself actually going through the

00:49:59.400 second religiousness and you said this would tie in to some of the things going in in iran i don't

00:50:03.640 want to make this a current events episode but that's such an important observation and so timely

00:50:08.380 in this moment i thought it might be worth talking about this because ultimately uh we we are seeing

00:50:14.700 in some ways people saying well the islamic world is becoming less religious like they're 1.00

00:50:19.640 modernizing so quickly and becoming secular and material so quickly and it's actually people like

00:50:25.780 pete hegseth that are perhaps becoming more religious or more animated by a religious language

00:50:31.280 so i wanted you to just kind of explore that real quick yeah it's it's it's really important that

00:50:36.980 as far as the decline of the west is concerned the only real civilization which is well as of

00:50:44.980 spengler writing it and still uh just is is western civilization the others have already

00:50:51.680 gone through their cycle so in this case it would be the chinese and the muslim and the indian as

00:50:58.160 well they've all already gone through their arcs and they they are all deep into winter and so

00:51:05.480 people will say for so for example as you say like there's this kind of thing about islam's

00:51:11.920 taking over everywhere they are they are deep into their the winter they are deep into their

00:51:18.060 second religiousness of islam and it does actually kind of map on because you know they they did 1.00

00:51:25.120 actually have a proud culture you'll notice that islam did produce its own unique architecture

00:51:30.960 many books uh mathematics and and leftists never tire of telling us how much we did mathematics

00:51:37.540 so and to be honest the same of the chinese but uh and the indians and so they've all gone through

00:51:45.580 their cycles and just to sort of on on islam well what we see is that they are actually deep into

00:51:52.800 the winter of their civilization because islam has kind of calcified uh and and become something 1.00

00:51:58.680 kind of sterile uh if you like it's it's just this kind of rehashing of centuries ago vigor

00:52:07.240 uh but but it's still kind of functional it's still in this sort of zombified form that's how

00:52:13.360 spangler would see it and that would also include iran but you could also say the same for the

00:52:18.340 for the chinese now this seems kind of strange because you know they've got these wonderful

00:52:24.440 skyscrapers they've got a booming economy they're industrializing um but the thing is these are all

00:52:31.620 faustian forms these aren't actually they all had their own spirit um and so they're all in the

00:52:39.800 winter of civilization now the what's interesting here is that when you connect that back to the

00:52:46.260 internet and this kind of flattening of time that happens which what the zoomers are in 0.99

00:52:52.380 the thing about the second religiousness uh or uh i think i saw a glance in the chat

00:52:59.660 what could be a new spring would be where it is genuinely universal where the the chaos in the

00:53:08.660 world today again i would say this is a absolutely pessimistic uh outlook but it could genuinely be

00:53:16.680 that if the internet remains as it is and everybody is looking at iphones like it doesn't matter if

00:53:22.780 you're chinese or you're an arab or you're a brazilian everybody is basically the same because

00:53:28.680 they all spend their time looking at jumbled up media and they're all looking at their iPhones

00:53:33.880 all of the time it's all it's a world of screens then what you could actually see um in the in the

00:53:40.340 future the distant future when this whole thing plays out is this sort of rekindling uh a new

00:53:48.600 brew mixing which where you would have like an actual human identity to a degree because of the 0.97

00:53:56.700 connectivity of the internet and artificial intelligence again for me that's that's a

00:54:01.560 it's a really bleak uh sort of assessment or bleak look at the future but it is possible it

00:54:09.440 definitely is possible but yeah we it's western civilization which is now in its winter and

00:54:17.040 heading towards the second religions but these other places have gone and you know i know spangler

00:54:22.260 can be very bleak but one of the things that i'll point out was that when rome went down and had a

00:54:30.020 long period of chaos people sort of still walked along the beach holding hands watching the sunset

00:54:36.500 they they people still tended to their gardens and this kind of thing what horrifies me about

00:54:42.660 the trajectory of the west with the internet ai and basically transhumanism because that's what

00:54:50.180 it would be that the civilization of the future could be this transhuman interconnectivity um

00:54:56.760 but basically i've lost my train of thought there but that that's the the optimistic outlook for me

00:55:05.460 anyway is is where you actually do get a back to the land rather than the transhuman 1.00

00:55:11.300 sort of broth of the future being brewed yeah you know in a strange way we're we're almost

00:55:17.620 rooting for cyclical history here because it's better than the other outcomes as bleak as that

00:55:23.660 might that might be the blackest of any black pills i've ever dealt on this channel but yeah

00:55:28.480 civilizational collapse might be better than the alternative um but that that is you know kind of

00:55:34.040 the part of this delusian understanding of uh de-territorialization and re-territorialization

00:55:41.480 Is the idea that, you know, especially capital is creating this scenario where these things that were in the spiritual, they were highly coded ethnically and civilizationally.

00:55:53.960 They were embedded inside cultures and human understandings.

00:55:59.900 They start to get separated out as capital recognizes that it can turn these into profit centers.

00:56:05.620 It can modernize these.

00:56:07.220 It can mechanize these things.

00:56:08.520 and for them that's a that's a positive process for marx this is a positive process because it

00:56:13.640 breaks down the barriers between civilizations uh you actually have to go through the capitalistic

00:56:18.740 phase before you get to communism that's you know the whole point is that it accelerates through

00:56:24.420 the capitalist moment and then into uh this kind of communist understanding but you have to go

00:56:30.200 through that period of deterritorialization and re-territorialization to do that but as we are

00:56:35.420 pointing out that makes you less and less human because you're re-territorializing these things

00:56:40.320 into uh you know the into the marketplace into this global understanding this uh you know

00:56:45.960 non-civilizational understanding this hybridization of all the cultures and all the peoples into this

00:56:52.140 one thing and yes that can like in a way transcend the limitations of humanity but it also opens us

00:56:58.540 up to all these horrible things as you you pointed out there and so in many ways what we're really

00:57:03.660 hoping is that we can re-territorialize things into civilizations once again we could make these

00:57:10.140 things human and that is that is the dugan moment that is the other side of uh you know the

00:57:15.920 singularity where instead of the faustian escape or the you know grand homogenization of humanity

00:57:21.460 and transcending into these other identities instead we're allowed to break back down we're

00:57:27.320 allowed to return back to the land we're allowed to re-territorialize things into the frame of the

00:57:32.880 human once again and so I think that's what makes all of this so interesting no matter if you want

00:57:38.640 to approach it from Spangler or from Deleuze or from Land or from Dugan there are so many things

00:57:44.620 overlapping so many processes we can recognize in the world that are kind of acting on us today

00:57:50.440 and each one of these thinkers gives us a different way to kind of glimpse behind the

00:57:55.740 curtain and understand what might be happening to us but as Spangler you know I think correctly

00:58:00.460 points out the scribe only comes at the end of the civilization that that's that's when you get

00:58:05.100 the full explanation it's not until the civilization it's it's not the scribe who explains what's going

00:58:10.720 to happen predicts it uh drives it it's the scribe that comes after the great men of action the the

00:58:15.840 vitality is gone they're the ones that ultimately write the record of how things uh have have been

00:58:21.100 uh but they're they're not revealing anything they're only uh kind of stenographers at the end

00:58:25.980 of the decline yeah yeah exactly um yeah i don't have much much to add i think that's

00:58:33.920 it sums up perfectly in all its depressing glory to be honest well i will just preempt a super

00:58:41.100 chat that's coming in because it ties into what we were just saying well let's let's do you want

00:58:46.000 to just run through the the super chats and then that way we can uh answer those questions in order

00:58:49.620 okay all right well let's move over to the questions of the people here actually before

00:58:55.580 we do that Morgoth can you tell people where to find your stuff so I don't forget um I'm I'm quite

00:59:01.300 busy on Substack I do one or two articles and podcasts and and sometimes it's long voice notes

00:59:07.340 on Substack I've still got a YouTube channel which is gathering a bit of dust because I just prefer

00:59:12.280 Substack so that's where I am all right let's head over here we've got liturgical sooner says

00:59:19.500 question what sign does Spangler point to as evidence of a new or different culture

00:59:24.200 soul forming i know the only uh he only saw the russian uh beside the besides the west

00:59:30.700 but what indicates the first stirrings of a new soul ps love both y'all stuff well i think you

00:59:36.340 largely address that but is there any more you want to add to the idea of emerging cultures

00:59:41.500 yeah this is this is what i was going to get into and it's it's the the beginning of the culture

00:59:46.920 will not be um or of the civilization or the culture rather would not be conscious of itself

00:59:52.620 so it would people would behave and act and believe in certain things but it wouldn't be

00:59:59.860 because that's a kind of expectation of the civilization it wouldn't be within the context

01:00:05.920 of a civilization and so why is sort of connect back to what we were just talking about about the

01:00:12.080 ultimate kind of ai transhuman world identity of the future is that it wouldn't be conscious of

01:00:19.520 itself it would be a mode of being first and foremost and this is why it's it's actually

01:00:24.800 genuinely horrifying because if you look at uh wars going on around the world doesn't matter

01:00:30.880 which one what you'll notice is that everybody's watching clips on an iphone so the form that

01:00:37.340 connects them even though you've got obviously these vicious wars being waged there's something

01:00:43.280 more fundamental which is connecting all humanity together and eventually it may be where the

01:00:49.160 differences what they're fighting over in the world become less important over time because

01:00:54.320 they're all connected through this thing because you would phase out material reality whether it

01:01:00.160 was a border dispute or some oil somewhere or whatever an island which is disputed what what

01:01:08.260 would what would come to pass and you see it with these ai lego things you know iran makes ai lego

01:01:15.940 propaganda what you've come to pass is that there's something more sort of deeper foundations

01:01:21.740 connecting people which actual globalism didn't have actual globalism just thought you could do

01:01:29.120 that by raising living standards and sort of streamlining the supply chains but there could

01:01:35.260 be something more fundamental to that but it wouldn't be conscious of itself at first so this

01:01:40.060 is the kind of thing in the past it would be in german forests or on the beaches of of england

01:01:46.560 or something but this could be the stirrings of of what comes next interesting interesting all

01:01:52.800 right let's see here uh freelancer says uh supreme court seems posed to strike down trump's birth 0.97

01:02:00.040 right citizenship executive order per breaking uh 9-1-1 damn ome uh damn amy conan barrett uh 1.00

01:02:07.820 truly a sign of judgment to have a woman in authority. Uh, I mean, if you have been listening 1.00

01:02:13.640 to those arguments, especially coming out of Ketanji Brown Jackson, uh, it is embarrassing.

01:02:20.120 I'm embarrassed to be ruled by these people. Um, I'll get more, I'm sure into this ruling probably

01:02:26.420 on Friday, how it breaks. Uh, but yeah, let's just say that the, the, the current arguments are, um,

01:02:32.000 not not a place to be to be super optimistic about uh liturgical also says uh for what it's

01:02:40.620 worth i firmly believe i lack the faustian spirit but i also don't think i fit the description of

01:02:46.560 the falheen i i've read some stuff speculating about a new soul born in rural parts of north

01:02:53.460 america possible what do you think about that any like synthesis between the two is there any

01:03:00.780 halfway is there anything different that could be born or are these the hard well the faustian

01:03:06.420 spirit is is sort of the the central drive of the the civilization writ large and the the fellaheen

01:03:13.820 is just a particular type of people when what what appears towards the end of all civilizations

01:03:19.240 and so in sort of um america i absolutely yes i definitely agree with that there could be a kind

01:03:28.160 of people break because you've got the space and you've got the land um there's there's a there's

01:03:33.740 more than enough room to just kind of screw and i mean that's squirreling away is actually an

01:03:40.260 american thing that that's so there could yes i think that's absolutely a possibility that you

01:03:45.380 could get uh and the new stirrings of something in america somewhere deep in the in the midwest

01:03:52.120 or somewhere you know uh it just kind of popped in my head and since it's self-serving because

01:03:57.520 i'm a southerner i'll go ahead and put that out there uh but in a way the the the southern united

01:04:03.560 states existed much in the form that um spangler talked about when he was talking about cultures

01:04:11.180 that have constantly been refreshed you know repressed during their metamorphosis uh that

01:04:16.240 kind of gets i forget his exact wording but they get kind of like stuck in the state because they've

01:04:21.100 been under the influence of other cultures for too long perhaps there is a a post uh american

01:04:27.840 south that you know post united states south that rises once it is no longer kind of under the

01:04:34.200 oppressive influence of uh you know the yankee north that has uh shaped our our and and stunted

01:04:39.560 our growth as a separate culture this entire time yeah he describes russia uh finally breaking its

01:04:46.280 way through the permafrost of what faustian civilization to express which is interesting

01:04:51.460 when you look at the world today actually indeed so my hope is that this also exists for my

01:04:57.220 beloved uh south in the united states that we well you know once we've uh been allowed to escape

01:05:04.120 from uh the the influence of these other uh civilizations we can uh rise on our own here

01:05:09.980 treadle says uh so is post-modern pascal's wage i.e the demonic is clearly real i'm siding with

01:05:18.240 the opposite as a path to christianity a phenomenon of the second religiousness yeah largely i think

01:05:24.060 that's right i mean to be more specific the argument from evil has been something that has

01:05:29.520 been part of christianity for a long time but what you've seen very specifically the meme you're

01:05:33.420 talking about is the idea that okay i don't really believe in christianity but since all of my enemies

01:05:39.680 are like evil worshiping satan you know dedicated to pedophilia mutilating children then i'm just

01:05:47.580 on the other side of whatever that is and i think that is very much a phenomenon of the second

01:05:51.660 religiousness yeah liturgical also says the oceans are boundaries the walls that protect the core

01:06:00.320 land of north america behind two sets of mountains north america is a giant valley place yes and

01:06:05.700 again that's probably what gives us the opportunity to see a different type of soul reborn inside it

01:06:11.080 uh you know as morga said just due to the the amount of separation in the vast land that we

01:06:16.060 have available to us something i find interesting uh just a quick point is the old meme where you

01:06:23.240 had like european uh forests and it's all like cute little gnomes and dwarves and hobbits and

01:06:31.420 And then when you see North American forests and it's these horrible cryptid things, the idea, the sort of the mythology of the cryptids, I find fascinating.

01:06:41.500 And I think I think that could linger that that's the that's the kind of sort of esoteric and mythological broth that new things form in.

01:06:51.880 It's very dark, but that that is that is precisely the medieval mindset.

01:06:56.740 I mean, and America has always been hunted in this way.

01:06:58.680 like this is always how we have approached our wilderness to the point where in the south to this

01:07:04.480 day where not everybody says it out loud but it's very common and the more rural you get the more

01:07:11.260 people will say it out loud the idea that you know you you have like basically skin walkers in the 0.98

01:07:16.760 woods like people you know like creatures that will mimic uh human language and draw you in

01:07:22.660 with calls uh you're a wounded child or a scared woman uh these are things that are pretty 0.91

01:07:28.580 persistent uh beliefs uh in the south uh and and in these rural areas uh so yeah i think there is

01:07:35.000 a fascinating uh parallel there and wild speaker says 40k is real and nick land is a proto uh

01:07:43.040 mechanic mechanicus uh imperial cults technology we don't understand crusaders i've i've seen uh

01:07:49.960 this before uh yeah i i think uh it's a a fascinating way to look at the world uh certainly

01:07:56.460 uh 40k uh what's what i think it was uh bennett had that uh that tweet of uh you know we're 40k

01:08:04.980 is real and we're all just deciding uh you know which faction uh we're a part of uh that that's

01:08:10.720 something that seems to manifest itself more and more every day all right guys well we're gonna go

01:08:17.160 ahead, excuse me, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up, but I want to thank Morgoth for coming

01:08:23.480 on. It's a fascinating time speaking with him about Spangler as always. In fact, there is a

01:08:29.740 playlist of my videos on Spangler, many of them being conversations between myself and Morgoth.

01:08:36.560 So if you enjoyed, oh, excuse me, I need some tea.

01:08:40.500 just getting over a cold here uh but uh if you enjoyed this conversation you'd like to hear more

01:08:48.780 about uh spangler then you can head to that playlist if it's your first time on youtube

01:08:53.640 watching this channel of course you need to subscribe click the bell notifications all that

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01:09:10.940 and as always, I'll talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - April 01, 2026

Oswald Spengler and the Second Religiousness ｜ Guest： Morgoth ｜ 4⧸1⧸26

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