The Auron MacIntyre Show - Postmodern Traditionalism ｜ Guests： Last Things and Gio Pennacchietti ｜ 2⧸27⧸23

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00:01:00.000 We'll be right back.

00:01:29.980 Thanks for joining me this evening.

00:01:31.300 I've got a great stream with some great guests that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:01:36.460 We're going to be talking about the idea of post-modern traditionalism.

00:01:40.640 A lot of people want to return to tradition, but what does tradition look like after the

00:01:45.920 post-modern age?

00:01:47.100 We're going to get into all of that here.

00:01:49.640 I've got today with me two great guests going to reassemble the Dream Team from a few weeks

00:01:55.020 ago last things.

00:01:56.020 Thanks for joining me, man.

00:01:57.460 It's great to be here again.

00:01:58.900 We are the Dream Team.

00:02:00.180 That's right.

00:02:00.700 And the other half of the Dream Team, Gio.

00:02:03.160 Thanks for coming, man.

00:02:04.620 Hey, always glad to be here, Oren.

00:02:07.600 It's a good feeling, to quote the Iron Sheik. 0.99

00:02:09.860 So, there you go.

00:02:12.820 Excellent.

00:02:13.380 All right, guys.

00:02:13.880 Well, we're going to jump into this in just a second.

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00:03:56.480 All right.

00:03:58.500 So, Gio, we hear this term postmodern all the time, right?

00:04:03.000 It's the postmodern Marxists are coming for us all.

00:04:06.000 We've got to watch out for the postmodernists.

00:04:07.980 A lot of people are very wary of this term because of how loose it is, how much it gets thrown around.

00:04:13.760 But in this context, help us understand, what are we talking about when we talk about postmodernism?

00:04:21.020 Wow.

00:04:21.620 That's, like, right off the bat with the softballs.

00:04:24.560 Yeah, I try to make it as easy as possible for you.

00:04:27.160 Nothing controversial.

00:04:28.200 Nothing that's going to require serious explanation, you know.

00:04:30.600 Exactly.

00:04:31.320 I mean, that was a great commercial, by the way.

00:04:34.060 Thank you.

00:04:34.580 Do my best.

00:04:35.280 Yeah, I had a point, actually, about, like, how, like, the right wing, like, has been accused recently of, like, lifestyle stuff and how, like, that's a sign of, like, a fully integrated ideology that's sort of, like, you know, underneath, like, the lack of a political project.

00:04:51.060 What do you do next?

00:04:51.760 It's like, you know, it becomes, like, it was a very left wing thing to worry about your health back in, like, the 80s and 90s.

00:04:57.940 But now it's, like, the right wing.

00:04:59.500 Now it's, like, the, you know, the Susan Sontag album.

00:05:03.400 What was the essay?

00:05:04.060 I mean, I like Susan Sontag as a writer, but what was the essay?

00:05:07.260 Like, beauty is fascism or whatever, you know.

00:05:09.460 But anyways, besides the point.

00:05:11.800 Post-modernism, like, it's one of those, like, catch-all terms, as we all know, that's sort of, I feel, like, even, like, back in the 1990s when a lot of, how shall I say it?

00:05:24.280 A lot of, like, popular, like, critique was getting, like, pop-ified, right?

00:05:29.560 Poptimism.

00:05:30.000 There you go.

00:05:30.600 Like, you had, like, discourse poptimism.

00:05:33.140 You had, like, TV shows mentioning it.

00:05:36.940 Literary theory.

00:05:38.400 But in the internet age, we see, like, a sort of, like, a total glut of, like, academic discourse.

00:05:44.820 But that's, like, besides the point.

00:05:46.280 So the best way to describe it, like, that most people consider, quote-unquote, post-modernism is the lack of metanarratives, the sort of, the eclipsing of, like, one world civilizational picture that constitutes the majority view of reality.

00:06:05.300 Not, like, reality in terms of the real, but also the way that we construct a picture of what a civilization or truth or reality or so forth, so on and so forth, looks like.

00:06:17.240 That's, like, that's, like, much more of the leotard post-modern condition take.

00:06:22.500 Like, I tend to like Frederick Jameson's work if you read, you know, post-modernism, logically capitalism.

00:06:29.500 Of course, he is a Marxist.

00:06:30.700 And I think that there is a critique to be made in terms of, like, his emphasis on a lot of, like, his old school class dialectic Marxist type of stuff.

00:06:40.060 You know, he's much closer to certain writers of Compaq than he is about, well, he's actually best friends with Slavu Zizek.

00:06:49.140 But Frederick Jameson, he talks about how because of the rise of print media that leads into techno capital, that leads into newer telecommunications technologies and sort of, like, newer forms of media, you have what he calls, like, the collapse of the high and low distinction in culture, right?

00:07:07.140 Like, that's another big facet of post-modernism.

00:07:10.900 And that's the reason why I bring up, like, pop culture and how even the critique itself becomes, like, popified.

00:07:17.240 That's very much, like, the hallmark of at least the classic, like, 80s and 90s, you know, definition of post-modernism.

00:07:26.120 Where now it's, like, something that is very highbrow is mixed in with something.

00:07:30.640 And, of course, something very lowbrow is taken up into, quote-unquote, high culture and the distinction is sort of erased.

00:07:37.820 So, like, what would be a good example?

00:07:40.700 The millennial video essayist that talks about Marvel films as if it's, like, as if it's, like, Baudelaire critiquing Poussin, right?

00:07:48.000 Like, the paintings of Poussin.

00:07:49.540 Like, it's, that's an example of how post-modernity is sort of, like, seeped into every facet of life.

00:07:57.420 Now, the critique, of course, is, like, do we really live in post-modernity?

00:08:01.040 Do we live in hyper-modernity?

00:08:02.520 Is there, like, an extension of it?

00:08:03.740 Like, all these, in my opinion, all of these things are sort of very fluid and in together with each other.

00:08:10.640 And to say, like, there was this point in time where we entered post-modernity as opposed to modernity or, like, high-modernity and low-modernity, like, you know, higher or later-modernity, right?

00:08:20.840 Like, there's not really a clear-cut distinction.

00:08:23.580 There is, you could say, with modernism where certain artistic and cultural and philosophic trends around the turn of the century basically culminated into what we know is modernism.

00:08:36.140 But post-modernism is, like, one of those slippery things that, like, there was no, like, ground zero for post-modernism.

00:08:43.400 I was going to ask, Gio, is there any way to, like, to put a historical moment on it?

00:08:50.160 Like, I don't know if you would consider sort of, like, the fall of the Soviet Union as sort of the last kind of global meta-narrative to topple liberalism.

00:09:02.400 And with the death of communism, you sort of have liberalism giving birth to post-modernity.

00:09:08.840 Yeah, well, I would say that, like, it's funny you mention the Soviet Union because a few months ago, last year, before Christmas, me and my old man, because, you know, he's a boomer, right?

00:09:19.800 Like, he's a younger boomer, and I was showing him the newer documentary by Adam Curtis, A Trauma Zone.

00:09:28.160 And if you look at it, like, if you look at the subtext, the fall of the Soviet Union was very much, like, it very much was, like, a post-modern descent into, like, a dystopian, like, post-ideology society.

00:09:41.820 It very much was, like, the weaponization of a meta-narrative collapsing.

00:09:46.360 I think even, like, last stream, we alluded to it, right?

00:09:49.620 But, so, yeah, the Soviet Union, I think, like, equally as, like, certain international relations people, they would say that, no, I'm not saying this for certain.

00:09:58.880 This is debatable.

00:09:59.520 I'm not saying, like, this is a hard, like, academic consensus.

00:10:02.480 But I am saying that a lot of people do consider that the death of, like, that final meta-narrative that, like, pulled the rug from under a sort of, like, multipolar, not multipolar world, but sort of, like, a world in which ideological lines were pretty much set, right?

00:10:18.940 Because the Soviet Union and the United States were incredibly ideological societies.

00:10:22.920 Even the United States, I know Americans don't like to hear that, but it's true, obviously. 1.00

00:10:27.300 So, you could say that the death of the Soviet Union ushered in at least an awareness of the fact that we no longer live in a world constituted by massive ideologies that inform all aspects of life.

00:10:42.340 Now, we do live under an ideology that basically informs all of life.

00:10:48.060 We live in global liberalism, obviously.

00:10:50.220 But it's tricky because liberalism proclaims to be the terminus point of ideological and cultural battles.

00:10:58.600 And so, that is, in a way, a weaponization of post-modernity, even though it adheres to a very strict set of, like, metanarrative assumptions that it basically is now inflicting upon the rest of the world, right?

00:11:12.640 And so, post-modernity, again, is, like, one of those things that you can't, like, as soon as you try to grasp on it, it's, like, it just pours out of your hands.

00:11:22.480 But that's basically the picture, yeah, more or less.

00:11:26.180 Quick rabbit hole that has nothing to do with our topic, but now you've said something that made me interested.

00:11:31.140 So, Schmidt identifies this as a function of liberalism way back in, you know, whenever he's writing concept of the political.

00:11:37.860 So, were we already going through that process?

00:11:42.080 Was the weaponization of liberalism already something that was working on Western consciousness even well before any of these conflicts and collapses of narrative that you're talking about?

00:11:52.900 It's hard to say.

00:11:55.520 I mean, you could make an argument that it was inevitable in the sense of, like, the given cultural, technological especially, and other political developments that happened in the 20th century that culminated in that moment.

00:12:10.420 But, I mean, I know Schmidt would say that it's an impossibility because, by definition, you need that distinction of the other to really truly create a political, basically a cult of power, if you will, right?

00:12:24.220 But that's the funny thing about global liberalism is that it really purports that there is no such thing as an outside, right?

00:12:31.680 So, it goes beyond Schmidt, or at least it tries to.

00:12:34.400 But we know that in, you know, political theology that Schmidt writes about, like, we know that's impossible.

00:12:40.420 Right?

00:12:40.740 So, that's always going to be the contradiction.

00:12:43.500 It's sort of like, I would almost read in, like, to bring Schmidt into it's a very good observation because he definitely was a modern thinker, right?

00:12:52.860 He definitely saw that there still was a sort of a political project there that could be built upon.

00:13:01.900 But I think that maybe there's, later on in Schmidt, there was some inklings there that, yes, there will be a sort of order of things.

00:13:11.780 And I say order of things, not just explicitly in ideology, because liberalism very much is an order of things in terms of its all-consuming nature of, you know, basically all of life, right?

00:13:21.500 So, in Schmidt, it's very funny that he probably did see that eventually these ideological contradictions would come to, you know, come to heed, and that there would be a sort of sun setting of these other alternative systems.

00:13:34.960 And that eventually you would have to basically centralize all of these, you know, ideological quabbles into, like, one giant superstructure.

00:13:45.760 Whether that's an impossibility or not, I mean, we're seeing right now that there's always going to be resistances within that order.

00:13:52.280 So, yeah, that's a very good question.

00:13:55.440 I don't exactly know the hard answer.

00:13:58.040 But I don't know, you probably have thoughts on that word.

00:14:00.740 Well, you know, I just, I wanted to hear yours, because, yeah, I think that he did see that while liberalism would try to do this, it would ultimately fail.

00:14:09.520 Because I think that was kind of his whole point, is that while it purports to do this, it's really just obfuscating something that has to exist.

00:14:16.160 And so it's just, it's redefining, and like you said, trying to bring everything under kind of its particularities, but it can't.

00:14:23.320 And so all it can really do is hide the ball on what it's doing.

00:14:26.940 But we could go down that rabbit hole forever.

00:14:28.960 So we'll try to stay on topic here a little bit.

00:14:32.300 So last things.

00:14:34.260 You had proposed this talk because you wanted to address the idea of postmodern traditionalists.

00:14:39.880 Now, obviously, this is, for many people, a contradiction in terms.

00:14:43.620 How can you possibly look into something like traditionalism if you've already moved beyond kind of this definition of what a tradition would be?

00:14:52.600 Or many ways people look at postmodernism as a rejection of history and tradition.

00:14:57.900 So when we talk about postmodern traditionalism, what do you have in mind?

00:15:04.220 Or what do you think people are proposing when they talk about postmodern traditionalism?

00:15:09.180 No problem, Orrin.

00:15:10.400 I'll try to take my best whack at this.

00:15:12.560 But before we do that, I have a slight tangent as well.

00:15:15.780 Gio, I just want to know why you're showing your old man Adam Curtis videos and not last things videos.

00:15:21.540 I could show him that, too.

00:15:23.020 No, the reason I showed him that one is because he remembers some of that stock footage from back in the day, like in the 70s and 80s, watching it on the news.

00:15:30.520 He's like, oh, my God, I don't know they actually did that in the Soviet Union.

00:15:33.080 They didn't tell us that.

00:15:34.160 You know, I've been I've been called a right wing Adam Curtis.

00:15:38.780 Yeah, you have.

00:15:39.840 That'll be a blurb on my book when it comes out.

00:15:42.220 That's a good one.

00:15:43.140 But but but but anyway, yeah.

00:15:47.400 So, you know, I guess that this does exist as as a label.

00:15:51.940 And I do know that there are people out there that really do identify and categorize themselves as postmodern traditionalists.

00:16:00.000 And honestly, that might be slightly different from the phenomenon that I'm noticing and that I'm categorizing in this manner.

00:16:12.420 I don't I don't believe so.

00:16:13.960 But it kind of occurred to me to write to to to Oren and pitch this as a conversational topic after I caught him on Benjamin Boyce speaking with vocal distance.

00:16:28.400 And I'm not overly familiar with with vocal distances work.

00:16:32.540 And I can't even or you might be able to do a better job of sort of summarizing what the the crux of the conversation was.

00:16:39.840 I wouldn't categorize it as a debate or an argument per se.

00:16:42.440 But it seemed to me that vocal was defending and advocating this somewhat amorphous idea that that the West needs to return to the logos to logo centrism.

00:16:58.420 But was very, I think, unable to provide specific details about what precisely that looks like or programmatically how that is is undertaken.

00:17:13.420 And I think you are taking up the side of Christianity as sort of the the traditional belief system of the West, Protestantism specifically within within the context of the United States.

00:17:27.740 And I witnessed this phenomena several other places.

00:17:32.060 And I'll say that I think that it's something that that appears to me to be kind of creeping into dissident spaces, although it's something that I I originally kind of noticed within the IDW.

00:17:44.420 And I think it concerns me a little bit that it's it's it's representing itself over in our circle, you know, and it goes under many guises and many names.

00:17:55.140 I think Jordan Peterson talks about this and it's I mean, it typically goes under when people talk about it, there tends to be a lot of kind of hyphenated terms.

00:18:06.000 But, you know, when when you hear someone like Jordan Peterson talking about how the West needs to return to a low fidelity, ambient consensus of the good or, you know, I was listening to an interview with with Mary Harrington a while ago.

00:18:24.060 And that's somebody that's somebody that I really admire.

00:18:25.980 But she was talking about how that we need to reassert natural law.

00:18:32.140 And yeah, there have been a lot of examples where people maybe frame this in a lot of different ways.

00:18:37.920 But fundamentally, I think that what they're talking about is returning to the function, but not the form of some sort of religious and spiritual tradition.

00:18:50.320 And I say all of this, my criticism, I should I should mention, you know, I say all of this as a a thoroughly postmodern person.

00:18:57.900 I am not I am not embedded within a tradition.

00:19:00.780 I was not raised in a tradition.

00:19:02.100 I I suffer under my postmodern condition quite mightily.

00:19:07.400 It's part of what drives me to do my videos.

00:19:09.720 But I I think I more often than side with, you know, or I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I I think you would too would be a bit of a skeptic when it comes to these projects.

00:19:20.900 I hesitate to call them projects because postmodern traditionalists don't really have a lot of practical wisdom when it comes to this stuff.

00:19:30.760 But I find myself a lot more sympathetic to the people that are kind of trying to reassert established traditional communities, faiths, etc.

00:19:44.520 Because I don't I don't have a lot of I don't think that the post postmodern traditionalism has ever really fully presented itself as a coherent idea.

00:19:55.500 But I I see people grasping for it all over the place and in a lot of different conversations.

00:20:03.360 And the name I tagged that with is postmodern traditionalism.

00:20:07.160 And I think, you know, I know there are I think academic agent may have be even been one of the first people that kind of coins that phrase.

00:20:14.600 He might I don't want to put words in his mouth.

00:20:17.300 He may identify as a postmodern traditionalist.

00:20:22.520 But that's yeah, that's what I've I've come to observe.

00:20:25.860 I don't know if you guys have have been picking up on that as well in our sphere or if you feel like it's it's becoming kind of a more common phenomena these days.

00:20:35.180 Yes. You want to go for a story or yeah, just I'll just put the context on the local distance conversation.

00:20:41.600 Then I knew you were going to. Yeah.

00:20:43.780 So so you're right.

00:20:46.240 I've done two of these conversations with local at this point, and there's probably a third one coming up here.

00:20:51.900 And actually, the second one wasn't supposed to be on the same topic, but it ended up being on it anyway.

00:20:57.020 And and and you're exactly right to identify, I think.

00:20:59.900 The the problems, the weird thing is, like, I think we're all postmodern traditionalists.

00:21:06.020 If we're traditionalists at all at this point, we're all kind of stuck in in this moment, whether we like it or not.

00:21:11.200 And so I, you know, I joked I joked with Carl Benjamin, you know, well, now you've reached your final form as a postmodern traditionalist.

00:21:18.620 I think he's got his bio right now.

00:21:20.120 But but but I think all traditionalists at this point are exactly that just due to our moment.

00:21:25.840 But the specific phenomenon you're talking about last things is very real, because I think there is an attempt by many in the IDW sphere.

00:21:35.300 And even some guys like local who might not count themselves in it, but but are some somewhere outside of it to to rescue liberalism through this kind of disembodied form of Christianity.

00:21:48.060 Yeah, where where we can we can kind of take the Christian ethos and unmoor it from its tradition and use it as a binding agent to revivify liberalism. 0.77

00:22:00.140 And I think that's just doomed to fail.

00:22:03.100 That's what our discussion was.

00:22:04.840 Our first discussion particularly was really heavily focused on was that you have to have more moral particularity.

00:22:11.160 This is what binds a culture is what creates culture.

00:22:13.620 This is what binds a civilization, what creates people group and what makes a faith something that's lived in and allows people to draw meaning from it.

00:22:23.020 Not some kind of disembodied notion of the metaphysic behind it.

00:22:29.840 What I think a lot of these people want to do is they don't want they realize that like the religious function is essential.

00:22:38.260 Now they've kind of they kind of you know, you still got some Sam Harris is out there, but but most of the IDW types have realized like, no, we're going to have some kind of religion.

00:22:46.740 And Christianity actually turned out to be a pretty good one, but they really don't like Christianity like pre enlightenment, particularly.

00:22:55.060 And so they really want to return to some form of like loose, you know, the fumes of Christianity. 0.88

00:23:02.200 They want to go back to the part where society was like profitably sucking the blood out of Christianity and using kind of the the the cultural momentum from it to to kind of coast through this this loose thing that would bind everyone together and would still keep some guardrails up.

00:23:21.680 But without actually imposing any real limitations, any kind of real particularities onto the culture.

00:23:28.140 They want to do that for a couple of reasons, one, because it keeps liberalism alive and two, it keeps their coalition together, right?

00:23:35.760 That they want the right to be a coalition of atheists and everyone else who wouldn't necessarily sign on to some kind of traditional Christianity, but doesn't like progressivism.

00:23:48.860 And so their project is to kind of do this.

00:23:52.060 This is why Peterson has a hard time really buying into faith, but he likes all the things that faith gave.

00:23:57.940 So he's trying to find a way to take biblical truth and make it, you know, psychological or whatever the best terminology is for that.

00:24:08.040 Oh, you done already?

00:24:09.180 Yeah, yeah. Go for it. Go for it.

00:24:10.220 Oh, I hope I didn't cut you off.

00:24:11.640 No, no. I just say, yeah, that's basically what they're doing.

00:24:14.740 That's what their attempt is.

00:24:15.900 I was going to say that that, ironically enough, is very postmodern of Peterson.

00:24:19.480 That's why he's been labeled as like a postmodern right winger.

00:24:22.300 So let me clarify a few terms for, you know, you asked last things about the term itself.

00:24:29.180 It's much older than people think.

00:24:31.120 Like there were people in like, I don't know, like people in like countercurrents in 2014 talking about it.

00:24:37.720 I remember back in the day, a lot of like even NRX people that I followed, people that I wrote with in places like Thermador Magazine were talking about it.

00:24:48.480 Even before us, like, I mean, even I believe in Joe Sobran wrote something that talked about explicitly about postmodernism and not like a typical paleocon like condemnation way.

00:25:00.860 Like, I mean, ironically enough, like you could say paleoconservatism is like another, you know, selective critique of certain like liberal metanarratives of society.

00:25:10.500 But the whole like logocentrism thing, like, again, this is like one of these things where, again, I don't want to make any enemies for you, Oren, but a lot of these people like in the intellectual dark web, they take like the surface level of the word and they kind of know like the academies of it.

00:25:33.260 But they're like, no, actually, it's a good term. So, Pronomi and Chomsky asks, is logocentrism the sensible center? No, it's not.

00:25:43.540 Postmodern traditionalism is sensible centrism. I'll tell you why.

00:25:47.120 In academia, specifically, it came from Clogus, right? Ludwig Clogus, but later was basically popularized by Jacques Derrida, the term logocentrism.

00:25:56.320 Now, he calls it the metaphysics of presence, where words, in terms of a logocentric worldview, which is what he thinks that the West was basically built up on, you know, since the days of Plato, is that words have a distinct and inherent meaning, or rather they correlate and connect to a meaning that is in the presence of yourself, that is direct, that is accessible, that correlation laws equals causation, so on and so forth, right?

00:26:24.960 But he's saying that words actually, in his sort of textual universe model, if you will, they don't necessarily correlate to a signifier, right?

00:26:37.580 Sorry, a sign, right? Words can only be signifiers, meaning that they can only refer to themselves.

00:26:43.420 Words can only refer to words, and therefore, because of the intertextual nature of language,

00:26:48.820 There is no, like, hard and fast metaphysical correlate that connects the sign, or have the signifier to the sign, to the thing, to the materiality, right?

00:27:00.540 Whereas, that's what logocentrism means.

00:27:03.240 Now, I believe that local distance in most people, what they mean is, like, we need logocentrism, meaning we need, like, a logos in society that comes from Christianity, but the eternal logos in Christianity is different, right?

00:27:14.460 So, they're jumbling these academic terms, but if you were to get, to be totally fair, though, Peterson and local distance and, like, James Lindsay, they do want to go back to a world where the word, the signified, means the signifier, right?

00:27:33.120 Where the word correlates to the reality of something, the horizon of something, and the connotation that we have actually means something, right?

00:27:43.480 So, to their credit, that's probably what they mean.

00:27:46.200 They probably, like, I know James Lindsay, like, whole class says that, like, you know, Derrida was like a wizard of academia that was just spouting nonsense, more or less.

00:27:56.840 It was sort of like free jazz, but in, like, you know, academic terminology.

00:28:01.040 Technology.

00:28:02.100 So, when it comes to postmodern traditionalism, though, it's interesting because you have a world where a lot of the correlate towards what a word means and what is the truth, we know is complicated.

00:28:16.160 This is a fact, right?

00:28:17.980 You know how we know it's a fact?

00:28:19.800 I'll tell you why.

00:28:20.860 I'll tell you why, okay?

00:28:21.900 So, I have my phone here, right?

00:28:24.280 What's on my phone?

00:28:25.260 A camera.

00:28:25.680 People have access to recording technology and to information technology more than ever before, right?

00:28:33.880 But yet we live in a world where the ambiguity of what we know to be true in terms of real events, right?

00:28:42.660 There's a war going on right now.

00:28:44.480 I don't know.

00:28:45.100 I don't know if you know this, right?

00:28:46.860 I'm kidding.

00:28:47.620 I'm being shown.

00:28:49.020 I've heard stories, yeah.

00:28:50.240 Yeah, yeah.

00:28:50.980 No, but you heard stories, right?

00:28:52.380 Yeah, it is.

00:28:52.880 Now, do you know for a fact how many blue-yellow troops have been sunsetted and how many Russian troops have been, unfortunately, have passed, right?

00:29:04.500 No, like, you can't put a hard figure on it, right?

00:29:07.620 I mean, you maybe can guess, depending on what ideological persuasion you are, if you're pro-Ukrainian, you have one number.

00:29:16.400 It's like, you know, the Ukrainians, they've only lost like 20,000 men and the Russians have lost, I don't know how many, a million, right?

00:29:21.160 Or the other side, it's like, no, the Russians are like giga-chads and it's like they can, you know, they've lost no men. 0.96

00:29:28.460 They've only lost Chechians, right? 1.00

00:29:29.900 They've only lost Wagner and Chechians. 0.97

00:29:31.520 They haven't lost any men, right?

00:29:32.820 So, in other words, we have a world in which the access to information and recording technology and live streaming of events is more powerful than ever.

00:29:43.600 Like, you can hook up to Starlink and a soldier can put a GoPro cam, I've seen this, go to Telegram and you'll see this, right?

00:29:50.980 Not that I would encourage people to do so, it's terrible.

00:29:53.500 But theoretically, you could do that, yeah.

00:29:55.140 Theoretically, right?

00:29:56.060 It's barbaric and terrible.

00:29:58.300 The point being is that we can't agree upon what we see in front of our lying eyes.

00:30:04.600 And this is what the postmodernists are saying, that in terms of, like, no, like, listen, throw out all these pop culture terms that the media has been using since the age of Trump, which is post-truth or truthiness or, like, okay, there's something to that.

00:30:21.600 But, like, ignore what the media has fabulized in terms of, like, the post-truth era.

00:30:26.560 The point being is that there's always going to be an ambiguity in terms of what a word or what a narrative or what a phrase or what an ideology purports to be the real in front of us and what we actually know to be real.

00:30:52.760 There's always going to be the ambiguity.

00:30:54.280 And as we increase our ability in terms of the sort of techno-communication apparatus we live under, as our ability to record and track and view reality increases, it seems like our ambiguity in terms of what we know to be true has gone even deeper.

00:31:13.140 That doesn't make any sense.

00:31:14.280 If we, like, if we lived in the world that James Lindsay or Jordan Peterson wanted, then, I don't know, I guess, like, 1990s, like, 2000s, I don't know, like, we would still be debating creationism and they'd still be, like, BTF-ing the, you know, Venom Fang X or whoever.

00:31:32.620 Like, we would still live in a world in which, like, civilization more or less agrees upon everything and, like, the world will go in a certain direction and people will more or less agree in, like, what is prudent or pragmatic.

00:31:44.860 Like, that doesn't hold anymore.

00:31:46.840 We know this doesn't hold anymore.

00:31:48.720 I mean, listen, I'm just ranting right now.

00:31:50.180 But the point I'm trying to make is that post-modernity, you can't think of it as, like, this is an ideology that a group of people scheme together to inflict upon us.

00:32:00.900 Post-modernity is not, like, it's not an ideological position per se.

00:32:07.260 It's rather a critique and it's a way of viewing the world and it's a way of viewing a particular moment that we're living through rather than, like, I don't know, like, Jacques Derrida and, like, the Berkeley staff in the 60s got together and, like, you know, oh, we're going to, like, tell people that the reels aren't reels anymore.

00:32:28.680 We're feels, you know, feelings over facts.

00:32:31.140 We're going to tell people feelings over facts now.

00:32:33.340 And it's, like, everyone's going to be, like, their brains are going to, like, turn to mush and we're, I don't know, or something, right? 0.96

00:32:39.500 Like, it's not, this is the problem I feel with a lot of right-wing discourse that has, not right-wing discourse, I mean, like, normie-level conservative discourse that a lot of people on the outer edges of the right wing have critiqued and said, well, actually, the reason we kind of look foolish, you know, granted, our enemies are equally foolish for their own

00:32:58.680 assumptions, right, obviously, but the reason we kind of look foolish is because we think that there is an intentionality to the, like, okay, is there an intentionality to a lot of things that we live through?

00:33:10.440 Yes, obviously, like, no word of doubt, it's true.

00:33:13.340 But in terms of, like, something as all-consuming as a postmodern condition, it's not necessarily something that you can, like, go together in a smoky room and, like, inflict upon, like, the world, more or less.

00:33:27.400 It's something that have just, that has culminated through the development of a particular mode of thinking in a particular form of technology and the way in which we've gone as a civilization as a whole.

00:33:40.080 That's what real postmodernity is.

00:33:42.680 It's not like, when all these, you know, intellectual dark web people, when they, it's almost as if the way they're talking about it, it's if something like, if we just give people the right information, then all of a sudden, like, I don't know, we'll go back to high modernism or something like that.

00:34:00.580 Like, it's, I don't know, it's like the way they frame the discussion is kind of infuriating, in a sense, because it's not something that, like, has that hard and fast intentionality to it.

00:34:13.380 But we're getting, like, yeah, go ahead, last thing, because I'm just, I'm great.

00:34:16.240 Well, I think something that I, that I noticed that I think can kind of, kind of fairly define the position, regardless of, of who's, who's talking and what, what name it's, it's going under is this.

00:34:29.100 It's sort of putting literary criticism before literature, or putting the, putting the critique of the narrative before the narrative itself.

00:34:39.480 I think, in some ways, it's like, we don't need the Bible, we just need Jordan Peterson's videos about the Bible, you know, because there's.

00:34:48.760 Well, that's a very postmodern, right?

00:34:50.380 That's, that's taking away the textual nature of something for the intertextual nature of something.

00:34:56.320 So it's like, you can have the video essay instead of the actual book, right?

00:35:00.560 Sorry, I cut you off less.

00:35:01.860 Yeah, no, and I mean, I, I can roll my eyes on that at the same time as I think it's, it's actually, in fact, very challenging to, to, to simply, you know, for, for us postmoderns to just kind of.

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00:35:48.000 Read the Bible or take it, take in the Bible without, without taking in ourselves, taking in the Bible.

00:35:55.200 You know, I mean, I'm, I'm somebody who's been, uh, kind of experimenting with, with Catholicism lately.

00:36:01.240 I've been doing the rosary, uh, most every day, trying to break my way into, to some level of non-postmodern authenticity here.

00:36:10.340 But I, um, I, I, I observe myself, observing myself when I, when I'm, when I'm, um, doing the rosary.

00:36:17.460 It's, so it's, it's, it's more easily said, said than done, but it does seem like this, um, yeah.

00:36:24.040 Once you, once the meta-narratives have kind of crumbled, it's hard to, you know, put the baby back in the bathwater.

00:36:31.640 Um, so, so to speak, it's, it's hard to, um, regain a certain kind of innocence or sincerity in, in your approach to things like that.

00:36:42.840 I think another, I, yeah, one of the main reasons.

00:36:45.540 No, viewing yourself, viewing yourself, that's a perfect, like, that describes it.

00:36:49.380 You're viewing yourself trying to get at that source of authenticity, whereas in previous generations, it just came, like, not that it just came to you,

00:36:58.300 but there was a very specific set of, like, cultural and, like, civilizational assumptions that brought you to that moment,

00:37:05.740 rather than you having to, like, re-engineer it.

00:37:08.720 And then also having that sort of, like, that postmodern irony, like, I'm watching myself doing this.

00:37:15.780 That's a great term for it.

00:37:17.180 Yeah, sorry to cut you off.

00:37:18.220 You know, it's interesting, Gia.

00:37:19.620 I was going to, I'm curious to get your, your take on this.

00:37:22.540 Um, I, I've heard academic agent discuss this a number of times, so I don't, I'm not bringing anything up that I wouldn't feel fine talking about or talk about with him.

00:37:32.620 But I know he's mentioned on a few streams that, um, he's been bringing his daughter to a lot of, um, I think Anglican services.

00:37:41.740 Um, like, he's been going to Sunday, even though he, I mean, he's kind of expressed that he's, he's not really a believer.

00:37:49.020 He's, I don't think he'd call himself an atheist, just because atheism comes with a lot of specific political baggage at this day and age, but maybe technically he, he, he is that.

00:37:59.560 But I think he still sort of feels compelled to, um, give his daughter the experience of this ritual and have it be an element of her childhood.

00:38:11.400 So that it kind of, she might have a certain nostalgia for it, or at least remembrance of it.

00:38:18.520 Um, even if he's sort of in, in some sense, engaging in it cynically, or at least not, not participating in a sort of naive, uh, pre-modern faith tradition.

00:38:31.480 And, um, yeah, I'm, I, I'm not judging him for it.

00:38:37.500 I suspect that, cause I've, I've considered doing the exact same type of thing with my kids, quite honestly.

00:38:42.180 If there's a way that I could be confident that I could kind of re-mystify or re-enchant the world for my kids or, or, or set up the next generation to have some, some form of subjectivity that is not this, um, you know, hyper.

00:38:59.760 Or, uh, this, this, this postmodern, um, uh, subjectivity, I, I, I do it.

00:39:07.460 But what I suspect would happen in that scenario is kids kind of catch onto these things more quickly than a lot of adults realize.

00:39:16.460 And I think sooner or later, AA's daughter is going to kind of say like, you know, daddy, you, you, you behave kind of differently from a lot of the other people in the congregation.

00:39:25.200 Or, you know, do you like, how do you really feel about, um, this claim to truth in, in, in, in, in, in the Bible?

00:39:33.780 You know, I, I, so I'm curious, Gio, what I was going to ask you is just, do you, do you find that, how, what would you think about academic agents tactic in that, in that scenario?

00:39:50.520 Or it's, it's, it's really something that I've, I've considered, even though I don't think I'm, I'm in a place quite yet where I can sort of, you know, I haven't been baptized.

00:39:58.500 I couldn't accept communion, but I'm, I'm, I'm tempted to sort of, um, baptize my kids, even if it's not, even if it's something that I can't, um, can't fully commit to quite yet.

00:40:12.940 Well, it's a good thing. I mean, I, I feel like any, any faith, like any foundation of it can be, you know, um, can be, can be approached, even if it's not like totally sincere.

00:40:24.360 Um, I think like a lot of people that generally do like struggle with these, like, it's much different than someone like, I don't know, like, you know, again, I don't want to bash him too much, but like Peterson or like Elaine de Botton saying like, well, we have to get like the useful parts of religion.

00:40:43.260 Uh, if you generally try to make a go of it, I think that's different, but it's sort of like one of those things, like speaking of post-modernism, it's sort of like one of those things that, um, that Mark Fisher talked about.

00:40:54.820 And, uh, I believe he got this from Frederick Jameson as well.

00:40:58.200 We talked about the like cultural exhaustion and like, uh, it was, it was part of his essay that became a lecture right before he passed.

00:41:05.820 Unfortunately, uh, it was called like the slow cancellation of the future.

00:41:10.180 I don't know if you've ever heard of that or, and I think you've heard of that, right?

00:41:13.840 Yeah.

00:41:14.160 Yeah.

00:41:14.320 Like he's like, well, you know, it's like a music, right?

00:41:16.720 Like anything can come back now.

00:41:18.200 It's like now Lana Del Rey can like sell an album where it's kind of like fifties exotica music or like some like SoundCloud rapper can take a sample from like entheo jazz or whatever.

00:41:30.960 And like, you know, it can make some, in other words, like you're always haunted by the past because there's this incredible eclecticism going around.

00:41:39.860 And this is what Jameson said as well in the postmodern, in, in, uh, postmodernism, the book, you know, logically capitalism is that eventually the reason culture goes towards exhaustion is because at the same time, you have this glut of like everything of every epoch, meaning like the dead, no longer buried the dead.

00:41:58.040 Now it's like ever presently, like that's what hauntology.

00:42:00.440 Yeah.

00:42:00.640 I was going to, I was going to say you're describing hauntology as well.

00:42:03.960 Yeah.

00:42:04.160 And as, as that happens, like the future sort of like becomes an eternal present, right?

00:42:09.520 Now the reactionary and Jameson, he actually did have in his book, this was, he wrote this back in the eighties.

00:42:15.680 He said like, Oh, I'll let you finish the last bit really quickly.

00:42:19.680 He said that, you know, actually a lot of these reactionary people, they could also like come and say like, well, actually now that there's no, uh, no consensus on truth, we might as well.

00:42:29.820 So literally treat society as if it is like an aesthetic project.

00:42:35.920 And we kind of know that there was that certain regime, certain painter of Austrians in the 20th century in Germany that tried to treat all of life as a work of art.

00:42:49.940 Right.

00:42:51.680 So I think like the, the reason a lot of liberals are so threatened by post-modernity is because it's like the people on the left and like Jordan Peterson, they hate each other, but they're both like, you know what?

00:43:03.600 Post-modernism that can lead to the Austrian landscape painter.

00:43:08.140 And even in the left now, you're starting to see like a lot of like new sincerity.

00:43:14.140 Like this is another thing too, is like the left, they're not, they're not even post-modern themselves.

00:43:19.160 They, they have an incredible and nuanced level of belief in things to almost a metaphysical level.

00:43:26.420 It's just that they tend to like weaponize relativism.

00:43:30.560 It's like selective nihilism.

00:43:31.560 It's like, they'll do a little bit of it here and there just to demoralize the chuds, but actually they still have like a very solid grasp of what belief is on a very high level and a very deep level. 1.00

00:43:47.280 The political, the current political level.

00:43:48.580 But sorry, last thing, I cut you off.

00:43:50.520 So go ahead.

00:43:50.860 Oh, well, yeah, I was, I realized as I was speaking, Gio, you know, I set up this elaborate, you know, moral scenario with that, you know, baptizing my children or academic agents.

00:44:00.500 And I, but yeah, I mean, you, I mean, you yourself, I think are maybe the best kind of subject for this, because I know that you are, you are a devout Catholic and yet you are simultaneously a, a, you know, a lion of post-modern theory or, you know, this is your, this is your line.

00:44:20.660 Yeah, it's my wheelhouse.

00:44:22.160 You should 100% put that on the back of your book, Gio.

00:44:25.580 I will.

00:44:26.280 Yes.

00:44:26.580 When it comes to your next year.

00:44:28.680 This is your, this is your, this is your red and butter.

00:44:30.680 Blur from last things, a lion of post-modern theory.

00:44:33.220 Oh, I can't, well, but like, I, you, you, you.

00:44:35.920 No, it's a good one.

00:44:36.660 I'm just enjoying it.

00:44:37.840 Very good.

00:44:38.620 You can both, uh, imagine how, um, uh, I imagine that, that, that creates a fair amount of, um, I don't know, tension, cognitive dissonance, um, struggle.

00:44:52.520 But you are somebody that has maintained an identity as a Catholic, despite having read every, you know, every writer born after 1945.

00:45:08.080 Yeah.

00:45:08.960 Yeah.

00:45:10.820 What, what was, is there a question there last things?

00:45:13.940 I mean, uh, I guess, um, yeah, the, yeah, I can try to frame it as, as a question, um, has that, um, how have you weathered the post-modern critique and maintained your, um, your, your religious identity?

00:45:36.040 Cause I mean, I guess I should, well, so I guess, sorry, this should be the question I should begin by asking, do you consider yourself to be a post-modern traditionalist in any sense of that phrase?

00:45:46.100 Well, traditionalist is a very funny term.

00:45:48.260 It's a term that's come under a lot of heat recently, but I, more or less, I mean, post-modern right would be like a broad catch-all that I think is very apt.

00:45:58.740 But the reason I square that circle is because I feel like post-modernity is not relativism.

00:46:04.460 It, it, it's, it's a critique of a certain epoch.

00:46:07.660 It's not like, it's not saying that there's no truth.

00:46:12.020 It's just saying that how, as truth as it's experiential is perspectival.

00:46:18.440 So recently, um, there was a great article and he's a fiction writer.

00:46:23.060 It was one of his first, um, nonfiction, uh, works essays.

00:46:27.220 Um, my good friend, please call me Christ.

00:46:29.820 Uh, that's his actual name.

00:46:31.220 That's, uh, PFC Christ on, on Twitter.

00:46:34.460 And he wrote this book, sorry, he wrote this essay called, uh, Cthulhu's Room's Right, where he talks about this specifically.

00:46:41.500 He talks about how, as the right wing or the contemporary right or the E-right, as it realizes itself as more of an, how should he call it?

00:46:50.780 An aesthetic avant-garde, if you will.

00:46:53.960 Meaning that the sort of like coherent political project is something very complicated.

00:47:01.840 Something that is like, even just to think of terms as a political movement.

00:47:05.940 Even, like, back in 2017, there were, like, writers that said, like, well, the whole, like, mass political movement thing is kind of, like, a construct that isn't viable for, like, whatever reason at this particular moment.

00:47:19.200 So instead, what have the frogs done?

00:47:21.780 They've waged, I don't know, can I say, or can I say the word insurgency on YouTube?

00:47:26.140 Yeah, yeah, they've waged a cultural insurgency.

00:47:30.580 That's what the frogs have done, right?

00:47:32.680 And so I highly encourage people to read that article.

00:47:35.740 It's called Cthulhu Swims Right, where he talks about this.

00:47:39.520 He talks about the development of the fact that if we do live in a postmodern condition,

00:47:44.720 then the possibilities of tradition itself can come in through the back door.

00:47:50.580 Because now the field is open to embrace truth that is not, like, beholden to particular claims of, um, how shall I say it?

00:48:03.180 Like, not beholden to, like, particular claims of, like, warrant, not warranted true belief, but rather, like, hard and fast distinctions that are agreed upon.

00:48:10.840 And so, like, the medics that we've seen since, like, even before 2016, right?

00:48:16.300 Like, I know it's, like, a meme now, right?

00:48:19.300 There was this video going around, you know that song, you know, It Won't Be the Same When We Meet Again?

00:48:26.480 And it was, like, all the people from Gamergate in 2016.

00:48:29.660 And our good friend Carl Benjamin was, like, front and center.

00:48:32.840 And so I know it's a meme, right?

00:48:34.560 That, like, basically Gamergate brought us all here, right?

00:48:37.800 But it's true, it's true, because whether he knew it or not at the time, but I suspect he knows it now.

00:48:43.720 Because as we know, the saint of Swindon, Carl Benjamin, has gone through a political renaissance.

00:48:49.820 But at the time, Sargon of Akkad unleashed a post-modern force of reaction through meme culture and mimetic warfare,

00:48:59.920 the likes of which we've never seen before.

00:49:01.360 And I know, like, I realize how, like, I realize how, like, you know, how that sounds.

00:49:09.280 Like, I realize, like, people, like, that are watching this may tell me to touch grass or whatever.

00:49:15.260 But when you truly think of it, though, the way that the right wing had developed up until that point,

00:49:21.940 like, through, like, the normal, like, culture war of the 1980s, which was, you know, largely informed by, like, politics

00:49:29.020 and the way that the moral majority in America had, like, a hold over political life to an extent

00:49:35.260 until, like, that was, you know, erased in the 1990s.

00:49:39.120 When you look at the resurgence of, like, a relevance of a right wing cultural moment, right?

00:49:46.140 Like, like, the trolls, the frogs, the chuds, right? 1.00

00:49:51.860 That was really significant because it took the recognition that we live in a perspectival age

00:49:59.960 where there is no claim to an overarching metanarrative of truth that we all must conform to

00:50:07.160 and said, you know what?

00:50:09.320 Actually, maybe it's all right to entertain certain forms of mysticism.

00:50:13.700 Maybe it's all right to, you know, because at the end of the day, when you actually look at the development

00:50:18.540 of the right wing or what even, I know, like, even Moldbug talks, you know, talks about this where

00:50:24.240 it's debatable, but we can more or less agree that, like, it's from, you know, Joseph de Maistre,

00:50:29.600 French Revolution, post-French Revolution.

00:50:32.440 There always was kind of an element of both romanticism and anti-romanticism in, like, rightist thinking, right?

00:50:40.100 So, in actuality, that romanticism, that sort of even irrationalism that came about within the past

00:50:49.200 10, 15 years, especially on the internet, that was primed and ready to go.

00:50:55.320 So, the picture that, like, the dark web people have where, no, actually, we're fighting for, like,

00:51:01.560 the meta, like, the grand narratives and the left are relativists,

00:51:05.500 that all gets thrown out the window in 2016, all of it, even before that.

00:51:11.520 No longer is there a side of, like, we are capital T truth and they're relativism.

00:51:17.660 It's almost like we're just fighting, like, there's different wars of religiosity.

00:51:21.440 It's like we're living in the Hundred Years' War, but it's, like, you know, in an instant on the internet, right?

00:51:26.480 Like, so, but that's post, like, that's, like, very much of a postmodern concept of now in the absence

00:51:35.300 of collective reason and meta-narrative comes faith, comes a counter-enlightenment, right?

00:51:44.180 And so, the left has their own religions, the right, like, Sargon of Akkad basically created 0.62

00:51:50.340 the religion of emetic warfare in the right way.

00:51:53.400 So, I got to stop. That's too much. That's too much.

00:51:57.400 Let's, you know.

00:51:58.600 No, it does make, actually, quite a bit of sense.

00:52:04.240 Remind me when we're done and I'll have to tell you a funny story related to that.

00:52:07.860 But to put a little skin on that to make that a little more concrete and to answer your questions, last things.

00:52:15.840 So, I didn't come from a background of no faith.

00:52:21.400 I came from a family that was very religious and, you know, I was in the church very young.

00:52:27.700 But I did grow up in a very postmodern situation, obviously, like we all did.

00:52:34.380 And I was in a situation like so many where you had, like, you know, the atheists, you know, 1.00

00:52:39.860 and the versus the apologists and the four horsemen, you know, William Lane Craig debating, you know,

00:52:46.600 debating Christopher Hitchens or something, right?

00:52:49.920 And so, I read, like, all these books, you know, and I tried to justify my faith logically

00:52:57.920 and I tried to understand all these things.

00:53:00.640 And I was a real believer.

00:53:02.520 I, like, don't get me wrong.

00:53:04.160 I wasn't.

00:53:04.740 But there was always this, I have to have some academic backing for my faith.

00:53:09.100 I have to have this thing.

00:53:11.500 And the reason was, I had never really had to survive with it and only it.

00:53:17.560 And then I, you know, I lost my first wife.

00:53:21.240 And it was the only way to survive.

00:53:24.880 And that's, it didn't, the academics didn't matter anymore.

00:53:29.380 The, all of the arguments and all of the apologetics, it all falls away.

00:53:35.700 Because the truth is, this is real and this is necessary to my continuance as a human being.

00:53:43.700 And that's when religion really became true. 0.74

00:53:47.220 Like, I had always been a believer, but that, but that's when it became true.

00:53:51.400 And I think it's, I think it's important to have that.

00:53:54.540 I think you should bring up your children and I think you should expose them to that.

00:53:58.400 I think you should go through those things.

00:54:00.740 If only because they, at some point, might need it.

00:54:05.700 They might rely on it.

00:54:06.860 It might be the only thing, you know, that, that can get you through.

00:54:10.520 And I think that shakes you completely out of your, your postmodern condition.

00:54:14.820 When this is the only thing that can kind of bind your, your reality together.

00:54:19.600 And, you know, C.S. Lewis, you know, to, to butcher one of his quotes said something like the, you know, the, I don't actually love my fellow man, but God commands me to love my fellow man.

00:54:31.240 And then I act like I love my fellow man.

00:54:33.820 And sure enough, over enough time, I find that I actually love him.

00:54:38.460 You know, it's, it's the doing, it's the embodiment of the action that eventually brings about the completion.

00:54:44.500 You might be faking it the whole time, but by living it, eventually it becomes part of you, becomes part of your lived reality.

00:54:51.060 And then it's true because it's become true through, through action and through lived experience.

00:54:57.120 And so even if you feel like a fank, even if you feel like a phony at first, I think it's really essential to put yourself in a position where you can believe. 0.53

00:55:07.360 Even if you don't right now, because one day it will be really essential and you'll, it'll be there for you when you need it.

00:55:14.440 That's yeah. Thank you, Warren. That's all, that's all really well said.

00:55:19.200 And I, and I will say even the act of kind of faking it till you make it is still sort of, you know, I think a, a, a more of a true engagement than this kind of constantly observing of oneself.

00:55:35.580 You know, it's at least you're, you're, you're, you know, you're playing a sport, you're kicking the ball.

00:55:42.000 You're moving forward as opposed to just kind of observe, observing yourself, even if you don't really feel quite yet, like you know how to play the, play the sport.

00:55:52.000 Um, so I think that's, um, that's all very, very, uh, well said and I appreciate it.

00:55:59.200 Um, you know, one other thing I wanted to, to talk about, I, I just, some of the reasons why I'm such a skeptic or, um, uh, I, I kind of roll my, my eyes around a lot of these more postmodern traditionalist projects or, or talking points.

00:56:17.260 And, you know, or, and I think you said all of this a lot more politely than I did in your, in your conversation with, with, with local distance. 0.84

00:56:24.560 But I mean, if I could kind of boil it down and be much more grug, grug brained about it, I think that the questions that one needs to ask for any kind of, I don't know, no traditionalist spiritual project is, you know, one, can it be taught to a dumb person?

00:56:42.920 You know, can it cut, can it talk, can, can this be grokked by somebody who's like just, uh, you know, 100 IQ normie to, can it be, can it be, um, adopted by just kind of an unreflective person, you know, somebody who's not particularly interested in, who's not going to pick up CS Lewis.

00:57:05.220 Who's not going to read, who's not going to watch the Jordan Peterson videos.

00:57:09.180 Um, just somebody that's either because if that's their nature or they're too busy in their daily life.

00:57:14.540 And the third is just, can it be taught to a child?

00:57:18.440 You know, and I think that's what makes me honestly lose my patience with a lot of these postmodern traditionalist projects.

00:57:25.380 Um, as quickly as I do, because, you know, I mean, my, my, my, my son is now, is now five and I can tell you about, he is, he is not a literary critic.

00:57:37.820 He's very charming and smart, but what he, but what he does love is narratives, you know, and it's, it's very interesting because I can see him, you know, he's, he's obsessed.

00:57:48.100 Uh, and it made something that makes me feel kind of guilty for not getting him involved and invested in a, a faith tradition at this point, because, you know, Lego Ninjago has become his religion and he can talk about all the different ninjas, uh, the way that somebody could talk about the apostles.

00:58:06.940 But, um, you know, that, that, the, and I'm being, I'm being kind of glib here, but at, at the same time, I'm, I'm, I'm really not.

00:58:16.440 I think that, um, the, one of the great failures of postmodern tradition, postmodern traditionalism is that it, um, it's only available to a certain kind of, it's only available to a certain IQ.

00:58:31.880 It's only available to a certain disposition and it's only available to a certain, after a certain age and a certain kind of, um, well, go right ahead, Gio.

00:58:43.420 Sorry.

00:58:44.060 No, no, go ahead.

00:58:44.660 You, you finish your thought.

00:58:45.560 Um, well, just a certain, a certain level of, um, you know, of the kind of subjectivity that we've been talking about here tonight, a certain amount of like self-consciousness.

00:58:57.440 Yeah.

00:58:58.000 Yeah.

00:58:58.440 That's what I mean.

00:58:59.180 Like, you have to be aware of the fact that you're living in something to like embrace an antecedent of it, but not really because, okay.

00:59:06.940 So I, so I, I realized I didn't answer, I didn't answer the question, but Oren, uh, you brought it like really to the foreground where you said it became a matter of survival.

00:59:15.820 Right.

00:59:16.260 And so I, I think of like faith similarly in that it's not that the truth of a faith disappears, right?

00:59:25.840 It's just that what postmodern and postmodernity refers to as a particular set of, um, a particular condition in which the sort of modernist reliance on a very particular form of reason that has guided the West since like the post enlightenment is being called into question.

00:59:47.780 Right.

00:59:49.120 So I find it kind of funny how people say that postmodernism puts faith into doubt when really there were a lot of like artistic and literary movements and even philosophic movements that would be considered postmodernism that in a way allows for a form of anti-modernity by embracing this critique of reason.

01:00:12.200 Um, so that reason also brought faith in the West into doubt.

01:00:18.700 So when Jordan Peterson said, or like, you know, whoever, right.

01:00:21.740 Like just Harris.

01:00:24.160 Oh God.

01:00:24.800 I didn't want to mention Sam Harris, but you know, like when, when they talk about how postmodernism or like whatever postmodern Marxism, blah, blah, blah.

01:00:33.500 Uh, undermines a faith in reason.

01:00:37.200 That same reason also was if you follow like the critique of people also undermined faith in like a collectively held belief, right?

01:00:48.680 Like the sort of instrumental reason that came from the enlightenment that informed like even the minigery, like the liberal minigery, like the liberal minigery,ism that we're living under right now is very much like a product of that same reason.

01:01:00.320 So the way I would say, like the way I would frame it is like postmodern traditionalism is the full recognition of that critique of reason, right?

01:01:11.120 And from there, you can say that even though faith, particularly Christianity, no longer has a significant, like the same significance in terms of it being that which instantiates the picture of reality to the Western world, that truth is still there.

01:01:28.080 It's like, it's rather the truth of the world that postmodernity is dealing with.

01:01:33.120 So I think like, that's the way at least I think of it.

01:01:37.580 If anything, it gives me more room for faith.

01:01:40.820 Like that's even what Kant said, right?

01:01:42.180 In the absence of reason, there's room for faith, right?

01:01:44.080 I mean, you mentioned something differently, but like, yeah, go ahead, Orin.

01:01:47.560 I know you want to see, go ahead.

01:01:48.900 Yeah, no, I think that's perfect.

01:01:50.660 I think that's exactly what it is because it's funny, so many religious people, because these rationalists are currently opposing wokeness, have been convinced that postmodernism is an attack on religion or is something that religious people need to be worried about.

01:02:10.360 Funny enough, it's actually just something that rationalists need to be worried about.

01:02:13.920 And the reason they're freaking out is that it might create space for many things, including the return of mysticism or religion like you're talking about.

01:02:22.660 And so instead of being something that the religious person needs to fear, they might need to understand that the people who are most scared of postmodern thinking are those that are worried about their God of reason being displaced more than they are about, you know, the tearing apart the American tradition or the Christian tradition or something like that.

01:02:43.960 100%.

01:02:44.440 Yeah.

01:02:45.080 But sorry, I didn't mean to.

01:02:45.940 I just wanted to.

01:02:47.280 No, that's a great point.

01:02:48.340 I think that's a really critical point for you, for what you're talking about there.

01:02:51.480 I think it's really important.

01:02:53.460 Yeah, no, because, no, what you said is like really spot on that the rationalists have something to worry about, because like, if anything, even like the entertaining, the entertainment of like an anti-modernist thinking within postmodernism, I mean, even in the work of art, like, this is how you get, like, even in modernism proper, you have people like Gauguin, right?

01:03:16.000 Very, like, going back to something that, at least in his mind, was very ancient within the human experience and through the work of art.

01:03:25.480 So even within modernism, you have like the seeds of a critique of modernism.

01:03:30.300 Like, you have to realize that postmodernism comes about through the exhaustion of that, like, Western tradition, right?

01:03:37.620 So secular instrumental reason can only deliver you to, like, it can only give you so much before it just strips the human condition of, like, anything that really matters, right?

01:03:51.380 And so postmodernism is just a recognition of that.

01:03:54.280 You know, but to lead to your point, Oren, to lead to your point, let me give you a funny little anecdote.

01:03:58.900 This is something that Jordan Peterson would find crazy, okay?

01:04:02.620 So Jacques Derrida, and I believe in the early 2000s, before he died, one of his students asked him about the, I believe he asked him about Christopher Hitchens, if I recall, he asked him about the new atheists, right? 1.00

01:04:15.040 And they go, well, you know, in France, they have a very crazy, like, academic tradition, where most of them are, like, atheists.

01:04:25.120 But they're not, like, they're not, like, North American atheists.

01:04:28.280 They're not, like, Anglo atheists. 0.90

01:04:29.540 They're, like, I don't believe in God, but I hate God, because I hate the Catholic Church.

01:04:35.140 So it's very much, like, the dramatic, like, poetic rejection.

01:04:39.900 It's, like, a Nietzschean atheism in some ways, right?

01:04:42.580 But Derrida is, like, of that romantic atheist tradition.

01:04:47.760 And a student asked him.

01:04:49.340 A student said, well, what about God?

01:04:51.760 Like, you say that there's no metanarrative.

01:04:54.060 You say that there's no logocentrism.

01:04:56.640 What about Christianity?

01:04:57.860 And, of course, in academia in France, there's a huge amount of tradcasts, ironically enough, as well.

01:05:03.120 Because France is, like, the society of contradictions.

01:05:07.200 So Derrida says, when he talks about deconstruction, right?

01:05:12.020 He goes, can you not deconstruct atheism and that lack of belief and that assurity of reason that delivers you to conclude that the world is made from nothing?

01:05:22.680 Like, Lawrence Krauss nonsense, right?

01:05:25.600 Lawrence Krauss was also on the flight logs, along with Steven Pinker, by the way.

01:05:29.500 So, yeah.

01:05:31.020 In case you want to know where rationality leads you.

01:05:33.960 Yeah, exactly.

01:05:34.860 Right to a particular item.

01:05:35.780 Oh, sorry.

01:05:37.320 All of a sudden, you know, I know nothing about Hillary Clinton.

01:05:40.900 I have no documents that would lead to her arrest.

01:05:43.700 I want to clarify that I am in a great place.

01:05:47.360 I have everything to live for.

01:05:49.500 Sorry.

01:05:49.800 No, I wonder where all the research money came from, about genetics and all that.

01:05:54.080 But, no, but anyways.

01:05:55.720 So, like, you know, Lawrence Krauss has that book.

01:05:57.400 By the way, that book's terribly flawed.

01:05:59.040 Even other atheists say that it's...

01:06:01.160 Oh, it's really bad.

01:06:02.060 It's comically bad.

01:06:03.280 Yeah, comically bad.

01:06:04.660 So, Derrida said...

01:06:06.800 It's so crazy.

01:06:08.420 Derrida, the king of postmodernism, apart from, like, you know, Bougiard and all that.

01:06:13.480 He says, well, actually, maybe it's kind of true.

01:06:16.100 You can really deconstruct your way into thinking that, I don't know, maybe Christianity has a thing or two, right?

01:06:22.700 So, Derrida's like, well, you know, actually, maybe you could potentially deconstruct your way towards God again.

01:06:27.960 Right?

01:06:28.700 Because you can critique that, the sort of dialectic of, like, atheism being a rational choice, quote-unquote, because of the predicate of, like, this is the way that human evolution and, like, development of reason and so forth.

01:06:42.060 Like, that Derrida, the king of postmodernism, said himself, like, actually, you can also deconstruct the other way.

01:06:50.880 You could say that, well, actually, atheism is itself, like, a metanarrative that can be critiqued just as much as anything else.

01:06:59.460 So, there you go.

01:07:00.440 We have the Mo bartender meme where the, you know, comes back in at the end, he throws the guy out of the bar and the guy comes back in, but it's religion and rationalists.

01:07:09.960 Yeah.

01:07:10.660 Or, like, when Mo, like, redid his bar with that designer woman, he's like, you know, it's Palmo.

01:07:16.620 You're like, what?

01:07:17.800 Ah, weird for the sake of weird.

01:07:20.140 I'd do a good Mo Sizzleck, man. 0.99

01:07:22.000 That's crazy.

01:07:22.440 Have either of you, this was something else I wanted to bring up on the stream.

01:07:27.440 Have either of you been reading or keeping up with Zero HP's recent essays on, I think he's titled them, Towards a Christo-Nichean Synthesis?

01:07:40.620 Oh, yeah.

01:07:41.360 Yeah, and the first one is him laying out sort of this structure of, I guess, religious thought.

01:07:51.420 And I did not bring this up as an example of postmodern traditionalism.

01:07:57.200 And I had Zero HP on my channel.

01:07:59.560 I talked to him about this.

01:08:01.080 I don't think that's his project.

01:08:02.540 I don't think that's his intention at all.

01:08:05.080 I don't think he's presenting this, and I would not group it under one of these postmodern traditionalist examples.

01:08:11.740 But I do think it's interesting to bring it up in the context of this conversation.

01:08:16.880 And as you guys remember, but for the sake of our audience, he sort of goes through this kind of taxonomy of religious thought and presents these different kind of categories that present themselves in religious thought.

01:08:32.400 And this is religion termed very broadly.

01:08:35.200 You could fit Marxists under this.

01:08:36.920 You could fit progressive, woke theology under this, as well as Christianity.

01:08:43.780 And he uses primarily Greek terms.

01:08:46.260 So there's gnosis, right, which is the secret knowledge.

01:08:49.260 You know, the believer or the person within this specific religion has secret insight into the nature of the world, whether that's, you know, the capitalist exploitation, if you're a Marxist, or the revelation of Christ, if you're a Christian.

01:09:08.940 And then there's the nemesis, the nemesis is the kind of eternal, unvanquishable enemy that blinds the majority of the world to the gnosis.

01:09:19.520 Everybody that's outside of your faith is a victim of the nemesis.

01:09:24.420 And there are other, I think those are the kind of two major categories.

01:09:28.180 There are other ones like taboo and ecstasy.

01:09:30.780 And one thing I brought up with him in conversation privately was I felt like the one category that he had omitted was the category of the epiphany, right?

01:09:47.220 Another Greek term, which is the epiphany is the.

01:09:52.780 It's revealing, isn't it?

01:09:54.520 Yeah.

01:09:55.540 Essentially the revelation.

01:09:57.340 So you could get like Christ is the epiphany.

01:09:59.720 And I would say that, but in the same context, in, in the, using the kind of taxonomy that, that zero HP is using, Karl Marx is an epiphany.

01:10:09.120 He's an epiphany for that religious, you know, meme of, of Marxism.

01:10:14.720 There's a messianism there as well.

01:10:16.520 Like Benjamin talks about that.

01:10:18.380 Yeah.

01:10:18.680 Yeah.

01:10:19.060 Yeah.

01:10:19.260 And I kind of, and I kind of, I joked with, with zero because, you know, this is, I don't think he's concluded this series of essays and, you know, that they're, they're brilliant and they're very well executed.

01:10:28.980 And I'm looking forward to what he, he comes up with.

01:10:33.360 But I kind of joked with him, like, you know, even if you, you have the most persuasive argument on the planet for this Christo Nietzschean synthesis, we're probably going to have to crucify you before anybody buys it.

01:10:43.600 You know, you're going to have, you're going to have to be martyred or, or there's going to be, there's going to have to be some, you know, messianic figure that embodies this Christo Nietzschean synthesis.

01:10:54.020 And they're going to have to probably, you know, die in a very televised manner because that, that is something that, that I think is necessary to codify these systems is the epiphany.

01:11:09.660 That, that person which exemplifies and personifies all of the, the, the, the key insights of that religious system.

01:11:20.300 And I bring this up in the, in this context, because I, I, I wonder is part of why we are all trapped within the postmodern and what the best we can hope for is a kind of postmodern traditionalism.

01:11:32.020 Because we're kind of denied that, that epiphany, you know, and, and I think a lot of talks surrounding kind of Caesarism is in some ways a longing for the, the, the, the, the epiphanic or I think we're going to be, I think the one thing that I can conceive of that would kind of, um, break the world out of the kind of the, the, the postmodern condition, um, or.

01:12:02.020 Or create the opportunity for a, a, a, a more, um, kind of sincere traditionalism is that, that figure of, of the epiphany.

01:12:12.920 Yeah.

01:12:14.760 Yeah. So I, I just put that out there. I, I thought, um, in, in leading up to this talk, I was thinking a lot about, um, zeroes work in, in, in regards to, um, those religious, religious categories.

01:12:28.100 Well, that's great. That's amazing. Because Frederick Jameson talks about postmodernism being that a lot, like most historical, um, movements, cultural artifacts, um, religiosities, even all of them become a series of stylizations.

01:12:47.060 Like they become kitchified in a way, right? They become, uh, I think even like talked about like the sort of like big mega church stadium, like Christianity as being like a part of that sort of spectacle, right? 0.84

01:13:00.760 Like this very much is like the society of spectacle stuff. And I know ZHP in one of his threads, he talks about this, where he says that to really truly break out of it, you would need like the mix of a Caesar and a Christ and an Odin and a Nietzsche.

01:13:16.380 You would need truly like a transformative world picture, um, embodiment in a human being to transform the stylization of religion into something that is like a truly living faith. Right. Cause I feel like.

01:13:32.340 So we need, we need the second coming.

01:13:34.560 You need the second coming. Yeah. Because you would feel that like, even like within religious, like even trad circles, I hate to say this. Like, again, I don't really like, I know to like,

01:13:46.100 I'm aware of the fact that as a cradle Catholic, it's like me, like lording it over or whatever. But I do notice that there is like among like traditionalist circles on the internet specifically, it still is at the level of stylization in that the way that it's practiced.

01:14:04.480 Like, okay, why am I a trad cath? Why am I a trad ortho? Why am I an Odinist? Why am I an Nietzschean? Oh, cause I want to own the libs. Right.

01:14:13.400 Like that is still a stylization of faith that can have a building block towards sincerity. So I wouldn't want to like cast dispersions on anybody, but I do feel that we're still living within.

01:14:26.480 And that really is, I think the essence of postmodern traditionalism is not, well, not the essence of that's kind of like a strange word, right? When it's about postpartum, but it's sort of like a definition of that.

01:14:37.880 You embrace that faith will still be there, but it will have to exist in terms of worldly, it's worldly picture, not it's metaphysical picture.

01:14:48.120 It's worldly picture as a form of stylization among others. Right. Cause like in, in the sort of like 2010s culture war, that's why I brought it up before is because that really like highlighted the fact that we're in this like 30 year, 30 hundred year religious war, um, where people are fighting over their own stylizations and like the past can always come back or trends could always come back.

01:15:12.880 Like it can be like, I don't know. I mean, I'm a millennial, so I want to live in like Y2K aesthetic early 2000s world forever. That would be amazing, but I know we're not going to, unfortunately, you know, cause something happened when those towers fell that basically like, I don't know, no clipped us into a different world than the world that us millennials were promised by our boomer parents.

01:15:35.500 So yeah. So yeah. So if, if millennials are sort of like the cynical, frustrated, like postmodern driftwood generation, that's for a reason, you know, and I hope like the conversation, postmodern driftwood generation.

01:15:49.640 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, but I hope like the less we learn is that all of these things happen for a reason, right? Like they, they, they happen because of a course of development.

01:15:59.500 And, but in that course of development, that's the funny thing about postmodernism is that there's no determinism in it, right? There's no determinism. So the world that we were given by like the twin towers falling and the surge and the financial crisis and then event, who knows, eventually Gamergate, right?

01:16:20.320 And everything leads back to Gamergate, but the, the world that we were given, when you think of it almost as like a time loop or a time warp that we've entered into, but there isn't a contingency, like, sorry, there's, there's, there isn't a necessity, but it's contingency that we could have.

01:16:41.940 And this is what Mark Fisher was talking about as well, right? Postmodernism is the recognition of that. We could have lived in another time, right? And maybe there could be another possibility in another direction.

01:16:56.280 And we see this nowadays. I mean, the internet age has proven this to us, that there is always a contingency to things that there could be another path that we can all walk down and that there actually is like the whole, like, you know, liberal Whig history, the whole like universal state that Kojev talks about, right?

01:17:18.480 Like that is even equally called into question because that is another possibility among others. It's a strong one, right? I mean, a lot of the people that we interact with every day and like a lot of the things we tweet about, a lot of things we write about and talk about on podcasts when it comes to like liberalism, we have to recognize that it's brittle in one sense.

01:17:40.760 And we, we all talk about how it spiritually decimates people and it deracinates people and strips them of their faith and their heritage and so forth. 0.96

01:17:49.680 But at the same time, there is a lasting power to its assumptions, right? Now, if I would even be charitable to Moabug, I know I'm very uncharitable to Moabug, but if I would be charitable to him, he is correct in that, in that it is culminated into a series of assumptions about human nature and about politics that more or less have some sort of staying power. 0.95

01:18:10.760 Right? Like, I know that's like an old reactionary talking point, but it's true. And that's something that we have to deal with and something we have to recognize. The only way to like truly critique something is if you realize it's power, right? And liberalism, there are signs of its weakness. Like, I don't want a black pill, but it still is a all consuming and powerful force, right?

01:18:34.240 But post-modernity says that that is one among many. And there could be another thing. There could be a post-liberalism, not like, you know, the cringy, like Harvard, like Harvard, Patrick Deneen.

01:18:49.240 I mean, not the post-liberal order. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Not the integralist post-liberalism, but like genuine illiberal or post-liberal thinking could come down the pipeline, right? Like, like that's the space of possibility. You know who is a real post-modern thinker?

01:19:07.240 I know he'd like, maybe he'd unfollow me if he heard me saying this, but Nick Land, right? What is the outside? What is the force? Like, you want to talk about post-modernism. What is the force from the outside coming into the present, manifesting itself through the present into the future, right? Like that itself is another recognition of our timeline, of our reality being spliced open by all these other forces that we can't account for, right?

01:19:34.860 Because usually like the, the, the, like reason post-enlightenment liberal picture of reality is that there is no outside that eventually we're just going to evolve. And like, I don't know, uh, the, you know, the Ayatollah in Iran is going to topple. There's going to be regime change in Russia and China and North Korea, you know, and China, China will be liberal too. You know, they'll, they'll have, uh, whatever, right? Like they'll, they'll have the United Federation of Planets. Yeah.

01:20:00.580 Exactly. No, but, no, but Star Trek was incredibly, like, if you want to talk about global liberalism, like, that's why you should study Star Trek, as you know, or, and like, have you done a stream in Star Trek?

01:20:12.540 I have not, but I'll, I'll put one together. We should definitely do that.

01:20:16.160 Yeah.

01:20:16.540 Um, but, but I think we should go ahead and also turn our attention to our super checks as they are building up here.

01:20:22.840 Wow. Yeah. We've got quite a few coming up here. So, uh, let's go ahead and grab the questions of the people real quick.

01:20:30.580 Here. Uh, let's see. Uh, Maddie Ice here for $10. Thank you very much, sir. Postmodernism is not real in practice. No one lives it. The rejection of metanarratives is applauded by people who replaced Christ's American Revolution, the glorious dynam, slavery, and the big H. What do you think about that, gentlemen? There is no postmodernism. It's just a replacement of metanarratives.

01:20:54.560 Hmm. Last things you want to go ahead?

01:20:59.880 I'm still mulling it over in my head. I'm still swishing it around like, uh, some fine.

01:21:05.180 Yeah. It's, it's, it's a term that like has many meanings for many different people.

01:21:10.240 Sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I would say that we do live in a form of hypermodernity. Definitely. Um, people don't live as if they're postmodern. Yeah. That, that, that is a good critique, but I still would say that like, uh,

01:21:21.560 if you don't believe in postmodernism, postmodernism maybe, no, I'm not going to do that. But man, it's true. Postmodernism believes in you. Um, no, I, I think that, yeah, it's true in that specifically when it comes to the political left, they don't act as if they're, they're postmodern whatsoever. They, they have a very, like Gloria Steinem was a CIA operative. So, um, she had a very specific set of beliefs that she was trying to instrumentalize and weaponize.

01:21:47.560 Uh, you knew that, right? They gentlemen, you knew that she was being paid by the CIA. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the first time I've heard about Steinem, but a lot of the feminists were bankrolled. So, oh yeah, she was the, not all feminism, but I mean, she was, uh, the, the pop feminist that, uh, was receiving the glow in the dark, the, the checks glue, the, you know, had the glow in the dark ink on him.

01:22:13.640 She had enough sex appeal to kind of get the, yeah, she wasn't Dworkin, you know, I was about to say, I don't think Dworkin was on the paper. 0.99

01:22:21.980 No. Um, let's see.

01:22:25.860 Sorry. Sorry. Uh, Maddie ice here again for $5. A mentioned once they replace a story of birth with a story of death. We'd be better to highlight this more in my opinion. Uh, so just continuing off of his first super chat there. I mean, I think there is truth in, in,

01:22:42.760 in what you're saying, Maddie ice, there is, uh, it's like, uh, people who are hardcore determinists until, you know, they then tell you to stop doing whatever you're doing that they don't like. Um, no one actually, no one actually acts as if people are not responsible for their decisions, even if they, uh, their worldview dictates a hundred percent that they are. Uh, so, but I think there is also, as Gio has pointed out,

01:23:08.540 I think pretty adeptly a real, a real, uh, collapse of the meta narrative that is, that is a part of kind of our world today. So I think there, I think, uh, you're right that no one truly acts as if there's nothing. Of course, to be fair, I don't think most people, if you walked around and like bumped at the average progressive, I don't think the first thing they'd say is like, I'm a postmodernist. Like, I don't think they describe themselves like that at all. So to be fair to the left,

01:23:34.480 I don't think most leftists walk around and then announcing, I am a dedicated postmodernist. So I don't know how much of a critique that would be of their own self-description so much as it is a critique of those who apply it too liberally to, to those on the left.

01:23:48.920 I think like, that's another, like another point would be a lot of people in the political right. They don't realize that the left truly believes in this. Like they, they don't, um, a lot of like the argument that postmodernism, I don't know, led to like, um, drag time story hour.

01:24:04.480 Whatever. Like you can make a case obviously for that, but it's more of like, it's not that they're like, Oh, well actually now that we know that there's no such thing as like a commonly held reality. Now I can become like, I can change. I can basically create my life as a work of art and become like, I mean, there's certainly academics that think this way, but the average, like run of the mill, like liberal, affluent liberal woman that like takes her kid to a drag show.

01:24:30.500 They're not thinking of it that way. They actually genuinely believe that no, if you state that your identity is as such, it is as such, it's an iron law. So it's not like, Oh, there's an ambiguity about identity. They're like, no, if you, you know, so I, I feel like that's unfortunately a lot of like people in the right wing or I'm like, you know, normie conservatives.

01:24:52.040 They tend to think of everything being like, this is relativism. It's not really relativism in the sense that they don't think of things as being relativistic.

01:25:02.280 They think they have a genuinely, they genuinely believe that that Mulvaney person is like, I've only been a woman for six months. It's like, she, you know, she's only been a woman for six months.

01:25:14.180 Yeah. I mean, it's true. It's one of those kinds of asymmetrical warfare issues that I think articulates a lot that post-modernity hamstrings the right a lot more than it does the left.

01:25:28.120 Like I'm what's that. Um, uh, quote from speaking of the second coming Yates, like, um, the good do nothing. And the best lack all conviction. Yeah.

01:25:39.820 Yeah. The best last, the best, the best lack all conviction, because I do think that a lot, especially like, you know, I don't know, very like, you know, neurotic, smart, um, right.

01:25:53.740 And dissidents probably do tie themselves in knots thinking about issues of, of moral relativism.

01:26:01.580 Yeah. And that's not something that, that, that causes a single skip in the step of the mother on their way to drag queen story hour or, or the drag queen for that matter.

01:26:10.960 Yeah. It's not like they wake up in the morning and they're like, Oh, there's no truth anymore.

01:26:15.120 Or ergo, I'm going to be a different gender. Like it doesn't work that way.

01:26:19.120 I think it's really important for a lot of people who were very invested in the idea of cold rationality, defining the world to believe that there was some kind of convoluted ideological mechanism that moved people towards what they see as something that's wholly irrational.

01:26:37.460 Rather than realizing that evil exists in the world, then people are capable of holding evil beliefs.

01:26:43.040 Yeah. I think it's, I think it's, I really, it really is. It's, it's, it's a very simple, it's one of those things where if you spend, uh, you know, uh, many, many years and write enough doctoral dissertations, you can talk yourself out of the obvious, which is.

01:26:58.940 That something really nasty has taken hold of your civilization. And most people around you no longer believe in truth, uh, because of it. So don't make me tap the sign. They actually do want to, you know, sometimes it's not rocket science. It really is. All, all the really complicated explanations of the world are sometimes far less illuminating than.

01:27:23.380 What an Urgagor you've unleashed upon the world. I'm sorry. I, I dream of a, I dream of a world where the sign never needs to be tapped again. That's, that's, that's beautiful. 1.00

01:27:34.720 Um, creeper weirdo for $5. Do you guys hear about this list of scary far right media? One of the books was Leviathan. They're onto us boys. Yeah. I don't know if you guys have seen the, uh, the couple lists of, of possible far right books. I think it's, yeah. Things like Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan and John Locke's treaties.

01:27:52.580 Whoa. I thought they were talking about Sam Francis Leviathan. No, no, no, no. Yeah. I, I could at least in some ways understand that though.

01:28:03.880 Leviathan and its enemies is, is in no way, not really far right, but yeah.

01:28:08.200 I love how you have like, uh, Francis Parker, Yaki Imperium right next to, um, John Locke's like, you know, or Tokyoville is like, you know, on America, like right next to Imperium. That's amazing.

01:28:21.620 Um, yeah, that is a pretty wild, uh, creeper weirdo again here for $5. Is it like Christian nationalism where we hack at an idea? We don't fully understand, uh, how to implement or what it means. 0.68

01:28:33.140 Uh, yeah, I think that, um, it's very true that a lot of, a lot of people grasp onto this language without fully understanding as I think Gio did a really good job of kind of succinctly putting that together where they understand the technical academic definition, but they don't understand its, its usage and kind of real conversation.

01:28:57.140 And then they conflate it with other terms and you end up in a situation where, you know, conservatives or, or, or opponents of progressivism are attacking straw men they've constructed out of academic, uh, you know, cloth and thinking that that kind of will, will lead people to the truth there.

01:29:15.960 Sure. Yeah. Uh, let's see. Uh, courts ZZ seven for five Canadian. Thank you very much. Sorry about Canada. Uh, how postmodernism is Marshall McLuhan. He hated the words.

01:29:29.900 Yeah. I don't, I don't know. I don't have the context for that one Gio. I don't know if you can answer that at all.

01:29:35.020 Oh, well, actually the context is I was recently on my good friend, uh, Tyler Hamilton theme star show, uh, EBL. It was, uh, me and the boys. We talked about McLuhan's book understanding media. So you can find that, uh, theme stars channel, uh, that came out, uh, yesterday. Uh, no McLuhan, he definitely was a modern thinker. Um, he said the postmodernism is like just another label, like in the beginning of understanding.

01:29:59.900 He says it doesn't really grasp, um, what he was trying to get at, but he does. I feel like reading McLuhan, you could very easily understand the foundation of the way in which the development of media and sort of like the post Gutenberg galaxy world culminated into a postmodern condition, but he himself is not a postmodernist. Uh, he thoroughly was in a sort of like modernist tradition because he viewed, um, he wasn't like a black 0.94

01:30:29.900 black mirror skeptic. He wasn't like a Lule. He wasn't like, certainly wasn't like uncle Ted or Lincola. He wasn't like anti-technology. He very much had the modernist disposition of having a sort of like, not utopianism, but seeing like a sort of futuristic potentiality within like a fully, um, telecommunication, uh, like tech media saturated world. 0.89

01:30:55.560 And he said, like, that's just the condition we live in. And there's possibilities of something great within it as well. It can also, um, he, he would say like, as much as it can hinder the human spirit, it gives the human spirit unique possibility. That's very much a modernist thing. So I wouldn't consider him a postmodernist. No. Um, yeah. Gotcha.

01:31:14.560 All right. Uh, Maddie ice here at 10 again for $10. Thank you very much. I like the philosophy, but in many ways, democracy would be good enough, but in a society where the tremendous effort to manipulate public opinion, a real democracy enemies would agree, but not reform. Yeah. I don't know if you can avoid that big if though there, right? Like that's, that's kind of the problem is that the cathedral assembles itself.

01:31:40.560 When power leaks in the way that democracy allows it to, especially in the modern age with different, all the different technology, allowing, allowing communication dissemination of narratives and networking. So I don't know that you can ever, you got to remember the democracy is itself, not actually that long lasting of a political, uh, kind of a form. Uh, a few hundred years, not even, I'm sorry.

01:32:09.420 A few hundred years, not even. Yeah. I mean, if you want to go back and pretend like Athenian democracy is the same thing, but even then famously not exactly known for its longevity, uh, or it's actual prosperity for the Athenians funny thing about, uh, most people who reference it. Uh, but, but yeah, I don't know that the illusion of democracy can really survive the postmodern world. Uh, after, after the current narrative of popular sovereignty breaks, I don't know that you get to put it back together.

01:32:39.400 In the same way you'll still get, um, you'll still get power derived from the demand of the crowd, you know, like that, that will be what shifts us into whatever moment we have post kind of post-democratic moment we have. Uh, but I, I don't know that you're ever going to just return to the idea that you just have an organic democracy that spans an entire empire. Um, I don't think people are going to necessarily, um, invest in that in the way that they have with America.

01:33:05.020 Yeah. What do you two think of, uh, I know Scott Greer wrote about this, the idea that Caesar can come from the left. Do you feel like the, like the blue Caesar, do you think there'll be a blue Caesar?

01:33:17.220 Uh, I haven't read countered that. I mean, purple Caesar, I hear all the time, but blue Caesar, whatever blue purple Caesar. Yeah. I would have to go Brutus if that was the situation.

01:33:26.920 Well, if by, if by blue Caesar, you mean like Stalin, then sure. But then, uh, how blue is it really? Right. Um, when your communism becomes fascism, uh, to stabilize it, is it communism anymore? I mean, you know, we, you can, you can get deep in the weeds.

01:33:45.820 Um, I think you meant like, out of like the current milieu of like American, like progressive politics that there could potentially like, actually like the left has a very strong will to power, like maybe not a true will to power.

01:34:00.020 I mean, I was talking about this with ZHP, but they certainly have the conditions of like a populist progressive Stalinist, like a, let's call it a bio-Stalinism.

01:34:09.740 If you, that could be something, um, bio-Stalinism. There's a paper.

01:34:16.700 Yeah. So some, somewhere someone is launching a sub stack just to, you know, take that spandrel.

01:34:22.740 Yeah. I, I, I'm honestly, I am skeptical of this. The possibilities exist. Um, but, uh, you have a lot of problems with this narrative.

01:34:33.580 The first one being that Caesar is probably in some ways, a consolidation of, of type two residues outside of the ruling class. Um, that's, that's a condition necessary for, uh, Caesarism and your type, your type twos are very unlikely to coalesce around a blue leader. 0.65

01:34:55.920 I don't, I don't think that's probably, I think we're, I think we're far more likely to see long-term stagnation than we are to see, uh, and just descent into, into third worldism than we are to see a coalition of type twos around a, uh, around a kind of blue leader. I'm skeptical of that.

01:35:15.980 The regime will get much more authoritarian, but it will be like a third world.

01:35:19.520 Yes.

01:35:20.140 Yeah.

01:35:20.480 Type of situation.

01:35:21.840 Sorry, Orin. What's that with type twos?

01:35:23.920 I might not be going to.

01:35:25.020 Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. So the, um, uh, so Pareto has the two, uh, he has seven, six, seven residues, but the main two that we talk about for ruling elites are the lions and the, uh, and the foxes, the foxes are your type one residues and your lions are the type two. And so we're, we're totally dominated by foxes right now. We're, we're totally dominated by the crafty, the, the, the combination.

01:35:51.900 That's funny. Cause I, I was actually, I didn't realize, I didn't know the type type one, type two thing, but I was, what I was going to interject is that we need to start breeding lions before there is a Caesar. Cause I am familiar with that kind of, that, that part of Italian elite school theory.

01:36:08.800 Yeah. Even, even, even, even Trump, as much as I think a lot of, he needed to be more of a fox than a lion. I hate to say it, but, or, or was he more of a, or was the, the, the, the issue that ultimately he was a, he is a fox. He just plays a really good line on television.

01:36:28.440 That's exactly right. And when, and when the moment rose in which he needed to truly, truly roar or bear his fangs, it was, it became clear that it was, he was a fox.

01:36:39.420 Yeah. Yeah. By, yeah, there, there's definitely a lot of truth to that. He, he was a, he was a fox making lion type noises and people are so desperate for that kind of leadership that even the hint of it was enough for a lot of boomers to just like swear other allegiance.

01:36:56.960 Just to see a hint of it, which, which shows you that, that there's a serious appetite for it. But I think that is, I think that is the case with Trump.

01:37:05.880 Yeah. Trump was never a Caesar. He was a crassus for those that know you're a, you know, Roman.

01:37:11.180 Yeah. Some people say that. Yeah, it's true. 0.97

01:37:14.980 All right. Let's see. Jonathan Richardson here for $10. The tradition actually says the tradition actually says for now we see through a glass darkly.

01:37:24.260 And now I know in part, as well as many other statements that long ago collapsed under human narratives and pontifications.

01:37:32.900 What do you think Paul wrong about this?

01:37:37.260 Yeah, I think, I think there's something about that, that faith is always initially seen through a glass darkly, that there, there always has to be that struggle to, of, of clarity of vision.

01:37:47.060 And I know last thing's me, you comment better on this one.

01:37:50.720 Well, I guess I, I'm attempting to see through the glass and, and it, it, it maybe does describe my, my, my condition somewhat well.

01:38:02.460 You know, you know, I don't, if I'm taking the comment and the spirit that's meant, I don't think that I, I don't anticipate that I'm somebody that's, that, that has the kind of personality that's going to experience religious revelation.

01:38:18.260 Um, I, I, I, I do think that it will be kind of a matter of, um, of praxis more than, than any kind of, um, piercing, piercing moments of clarity.

01:38:29.200 Yeah, I think that, you know, that, that passage is conveying the fact that we're, we're, we're, we never truly know the truth at some point we will, we'll be in a situation where we will, but while we're in this world, we're never going to completely understand, uh, you know, the, the truth of these things.

01:38:50.340 But I think, um, I, I, I think that that's, you, you maybe speaks to the postmodern idea of like, you're, we're not going to be able to completely live in this world of logic.

01:39:02.440 We're not going to completely be able to define reality and quantify everything.

01:39:06.900 And so we have to make our way through life without that, you know, without that certainty.

01:39:13.400 And that's where that faith comes back in kind of at the, the end of the, the postmodern tradition there.

01:39:18.700 Uh, but let's see what else we have here.

01:39:21.900 Uh, making sure I don't miss anybody.

01:39:24.700 Uh, Quirtz, uh, ZZ7, uh, thank you very much again.

01:39:29.600 Uh, is caught postmodern with his critique of pure reason?

01:39:35.000 Has anyone, has anyone here had the misfortune of reading Kant in depth?

01:39:40.320 Oh yeah.

01:39:41.360 Okay.

01:39:42.480 Well, I've, I've read only bits of critique.

01:39:45.620 I've read more of the prolegomena, but, uh, okay.

01:39:47.780 Yeah.

01:39:48.860 I mean, well, no, because you would say that Kant was very formative in that sort of like enlightenment tradition of reason itself.

01:39:56.780 And like sort of reason being something that the understanding needs, like it motivates understanding to predicate like the noumena to like try to find a sort of like noumenal distinction within things of like mere appearance.

01:40:09.520 So yeah, Kant is very, I mean, would you consider him a modern thinker?

01:40:14.640 Yeah.

01:40:14.840 I mean, definitely he leads the way to modernism in some ways, but, um, no, nobody would consider him a postmodernist.

01:40:22.520 So, uh, super Joe's midlife crisis.

01:40:27.040 That's an excellent name for $10.

01:40:28.680 Thank you very much.

01:40:29.780 A foot in the door to deconstruct back to religion is to understand that a lot of scripture has a strong rational basis.

01:40:36.300 Don't eat fellowship, uh, shellfish makes sense in an era without refrigeration.

01:40:40.860 For example, um, actually I think that's the opposite, uh, that that's applying rational, uh, you know, like the scientific rational explanations to, uh, what are fundamentally religious, uh, dictates.

01:40:55.780 Now, don't get me wrong.

01:40:56.800 You know, that's probably part of, of what the Bible is doing there, but to follow the dictate because it's what God said.

01:41:04.940 And because that's, what's important about the dictate, irregardless of the rationalization behind it is really the, is really the key to the religious aspect of it to try to attempt to attach it to a scientific or rational necessity is the most modern thing you can do with, uh, the biblical truth.

01:41:26.800 That's kind of revealed through the law.

01:41:29.380 Yeah.

01:41:30.740 Uh, let's see here.

01:41:32.920 Um, James.

01:41:34.940 James Richardson again for $10 or sorry, uh, Johan Richardson here for $10, uh, in architecture, postmodernism led to humility and, uh, receptivity modernists were the critical reformers.

01:41:47.220 Good Robert Venturi and Tina Brown interview here.

01:41:50.620 And there's a link there with the timestamp.

01:41:52.880 Yeah.

01:41:52.980 I'm not super familiar on architecture.

01:41:54.660 I am myself an artistic heathen though.

01:41:56.980 I know I should appreciate more.

01:41:58.800 Uh, but I don't know.

01:42:00.060 So I don't know much about the idea of postmodernism in, uh, architecture, but that is interesting to know and to check out there.

01:42:08.360 Thank you.

01:42:09.260 Yeah.

01:42:09.660 It led really to the, towards, uh, again, a form of eclecticism and stylization that they really like, uh, saw the flaws and like a lot of modernist architecture being like a total project.

01:42:22.700 That consumed whole cities that was like a grand utopian, like Corbusier had a grand utopian, like vision of it.

01:42:31.220 Like a lot of people think brutalism is like postmodernism.

01:42:34.160 No, brutalism is like thoroughly modernist architecture in that it, in that it was predicated on a total vision of what living space looked like.

01:42:44.740 Even Gratius with like the new stuff, the new city style, like the glass everywhere.

01:42:51.460 You know, it's funny.

01:42:52.280 A lot of people like, because skyscrapers are so like homogenized and standardized and like really you're a bunch of eyesores.

01:43:00.280 Uh, Gratius, he thought that really like having whole cities of glass windows was a spiritual vision that it could like create like almost like an Edenic.

01:43:09.660 An Edenic sort of existence where we would live through this like crystalline city who very much was a futurist.

01:43:16.800 Right.

01:43:16.960 But unfortunately, uh, the international style became like the style of like city bug man, neoliberal business world, like world neoliberalism, unfortunately.

01:43:28.640 So, yeah.

01:43:30.660 Maddie, I said again here for $5.

01:43:32.660 Didn't mean to sound like I was disagreeing with your position.

01:43:35.340 Don't worry, Maddie.

01:43:36.140 If you did, that's fine.

01:43:37.160 That's why we're here.

01:43:38.060 It's okay.

01:43:38.500 Feel free to disagree all you like.

01:43:41.280 Uh, more than happy to hear from you.

01:43:43.040 Uh, Gio is right about glowing Steinem, uh, getting paid by the patriarchy she was fighting. 1.00

01:43:49.100 Many such cases. 0.89

01:43:51.640 The real suckers are the ones not getting paid, right? 0.52

01:43:54.020 Yeah. 1.00

01:43:55.020 Didn't secure the bag like a fool. 0.99

01:43:57.200 Um, let's see. 0.99

01:43:59.240 Oh my God.

01:44:01.000 Oh.

01:44:03.660 Uh, let's see.

01:44:07.040 Oh.

01:44:08.500 Uh, life of Brian here for $9.99.

01:44:12.040 Pomo in practice is McIntyre.

01:44:13.860 The loss of a metanerev results in incoherent and emotive manipulation.

01:44:18.480 People eventually lose the expectation of consistency.

01:44:21.640 The current thing, eternal present.

01:44:24.000 Yeah, that's exactly right.

01:44:25.020 You lose the ability to have moral conversations.

01:44:27.840 You don't even expect the consistency of more reality in a lot of ways.

01:44:33.880 So, yep, that's, that's exactly right.

01:44:35.860 You know, I'll say this, this, that's put, this puts me in mind of, I, I don't disagree

01:44:39.460 with, with Gio.

01:44:40.300 I don't consider McLuhan himself to be a postmodern thinker, but, um, a great postmodern movie.

01:44:46.440 One of my favorite movies.

01:44:47.580 I want to do a video essay on it at some point.

01:44:49.800 And what it deals a lot with McLuhan is, um, Videodrome.

01:44:54.280 Oh yeah.

01:44:55.200 I think that.

01:44:56.160 Classic Cronenberg, James Woods.

01:44:58.520 Yeah.

01:44:58.720 I think, I think it's Cronenberg's best film, but that's, that's a, that's a, um.

01:45:04.160 Classic Canadian indie Keno.

01:45:06.860 The, the Southern, the South Toronto school of filmmaking that Cronenberg.

01:45:11.760 Yeah, man.

01:45:12.660 Oh, so, so much you could say about Videodrome.

01:45:14.780 Um, yeah, but the loss of, I would say the way if I'm going to, I'll say one thing about,

01:45:18.520 uh, it, um, as we're going to move on, it's the loss of metanarrative.

01:45:24.160 That's what the theme of Videodrome is about.

01:45:26.320 Yeah.

01:45:27.380 Yeah.

01:45:28.300 Uh, enlightened despot here for five Canadian, uh, sounds like you guys might need one over

01:45:34.300 in, in Canada.

01:45:35.200 Uh, I'm just going to keep making Canada, the state of Canada jokes.

01:45:38.940 Sorry.

01:45:40.380 No offense to our leaves on stream.

01:45:42.360 Uh, so, I mean, we're, you know, we're, we're right behind just, uh, sounds like you're

01:45:48.580 saying the, uh, there needs to be a rediscovery of metaphysics.

01:45:51.900 Most people haven't had a metaphysical thought.

01:45:54.660 Yeah.

01:45:54.800 I mean, obviously that's a huge part of what we're talking about as well.

01:46:00.100 True.

01:46:01.300 All right.

01:46:01.760 So I think that's everything guys, before we get out of here, uh, last things, where

01:46:07.460 can people find you work?

01:46:08.640 Do you have anything exciting people should be looking for what's going on?

01:46:11.520 Uh, you know, I was, I was going to publish a new video essay this week, um, on my channel,

01:46:17.160 but then, um, academic agent, uh, announced a video essay contest, um, that happens to

01:46:24.140 be about mythology and my video is, um, is on mythology.

01:46:28.640 And so I'm planning to submit that to his contest and I'm doing the Babe Ruth right now,

01:46:34.840 guys, I'm pointing to the, I'm pointing to the, to the rafters and I'm saying, I'm going

01:46:40.740 to hit it out of the park.

01:46:41.580 I think I'm going to win this video essay contest, in which case my video will be, I

01:46:45.020 believe part of the prize is it will be on academic agents channel.

01:46:49.040 And I'm trying to get, they'll get my foot in the door to make him come on and do a live 0.99

01:46:52.480 stream on mine as well.

01:46:54.380 But, um, I want like a promo, like where you walk in and, you know, like, I'm going 0.93

01:46:58.180 to crush you all.

01:46:59.340 I'm going to, yeah, I want, I want to see it. 0.92

01:47:01.680 Yeah.

01:47:02.140 He needs, he needs the work to shoot promo, the pipe bomb where he like exposes the sector,

01:47:08.480 the, the YouTube reactionary, the scene, you like have the work shoot where you like Paul

01:47:14.220 Heyman in 2001, when he came to WWE and he had that pipe bomb where he like talks about

01:47:19.120 how Vince McMahon destroyed the territories.

01:47:22.120 Um, that was great by the way.

01:47:23.480 I think that was way better than the Cuckman Phil.

01:47:26.240 Oh, sorry.

01:47:26.700 CM Punk, uh, promo.

01:47:28.720 So, uh, yeah.

01:47:30.240 Hitting us with lots of wrestling deplore.

01:47:32.000 I understood about one eighth of what he just said there.

01:47:34.360 That would butter up academic agent.

01:47:36.940 That's exactly the way to go.

01:47:39.100 Stack your academic agent would know about that reference, but well, Gio, what about you?

01:47:43.980 Where should people find your stuff?

01:47:45.360 Anything exciting that you're going to be putting out?

01:47:47.820 Exciting week.

01:47:48.900 Um, yeah, uh, you can find me on Twitter, obviously, Gio, I'm almost at 30 K, but of course,

01:47:54.360 Jenna productions is my YouTube channel.

01:47:57.280 Um, my telegram channel, my, my, uh, my patron, patron.com.

01:48:03.220 So Jenna productions also, uh, Gio's content corner at sub stack.

01:48:07.340 You, if you don't want to pay me on Patreon, uh, to get access to every content minded episode,

01:48:12.900 uh, all of the backlog is also now on sub stack.

01:48:16.020 I really love sub stack.

01:48:17.340 I love how you can get, um, both the free version and the paywall of each podcast.

01:48:22.760 Now I will have a writing coming out in the later of the week.

01:48:25.180 I want to get back to my series on the E write, but this week, exciting stuff.

01:48:29.600 I have on content minded, the writer, um, uh, Apuke Crumenon, I believe that's how you

01:48:35.040 pronounce his name, Apuke Crumenon, sorry.

01:48:37.460 He's a very popular, well, he's semi-popular sub stack writer, good friend of mine, also

01:48:42.340 a fellow leaf.

01:48:43.200 And we talk about, uh, Elul and Schmidt, Carl Schmidt.

01:48:47.640 So it's going to be great.

01:48:49.200 And also this Thursday, uh, content, my, it's not cut to my, that's Wednesday.

01:48:54.180 This Thursday, the digital archipelago with me and Prudentialist is on my channel, Janet

01:48:59.220 productions, and we have a special guest for a special topic.

01:49:03.860 Although the topic's kind of terrible, my good friend, Kino corner, speaking of YouTube

01:49:09.140 video essayists, Kino corner is joining me and Prudentialist and get this.

01:49:13.960 We're going to review daily wire films.

01:49:16.900 Oh boy.

01:49:19.800 Oh, it's going to be brutal.

01:49:22.040 Um, so yeah, me Prudentialist, Kino corner on my channel, Janet productions.

01:49:26.280 I'm almost at 5k.

01:49:27.880 Please get me to 5k.

01:49:30.140 I did.

01:49:31.000 I demand that all three of you get in front of the screen and there's like a geo with

01:49:35.160 a fez doing the, uh, the mystery science thing, pointing at the, uh, pointing at the

01:49:39.680 screen as you go through the movies.

01:49:41.220 That's, that's, that's what I want the most.

01:49:42.980 Oh my God.

01:49:43.240 Yeah.

01:49:43.500 We're going to cover the one with the, the girl boss on the frontier, the one with Vincent 0.97

01:49:49.860 Gallo and especially the school, you know, what film, the school fun post.

01:49:56.880 Oh my God.

01:49:58.060 Like I actually have a lot to say about that film.

01:50:00.460 So please this Thursday on my channel, 2 PM, uh, 2 15 PM Eastern central, uh, Eastern

01:50:06.120 time.

01:50:06.820 Uh, it's going to be me Prudentialist and Kino corner.

01:50:09.820 We're going to, it's the title of the, the, the title of the stream.

01:50:13.500 It's called little Ben goes to the movies.

01:50:16.040 So there you go.

01:50:18.360 Um, man, daily, see daily wire.

01:50:21.120 See talking about post-partition daily wire has such an opportunity to create the most

01:50:26.880 mind bogglingly right-wing reactionary films.

01:50:29.840 But what do they do?

01:50:31.620 Well, you'll find out.

01:50:33.360 You'll find out.

01:50:33.860 There's only one place to go.

01:50:34.960 And that's heading to, to geo stream there.

01:50:37.700 All right, guys, we'll make sure you check out both of these guys work.

01:50:41.540 They do great work.

01:50:42.440 And if of course you are here for the first time, go ahead and subscribe.

01:50:46.760 If you have not done so, you can go ahead and check out this show as a podcast, go to

01:50:51.940 any of your major podcast platforms and subscribe to the Oren McIntyre show.

01:50:56.200 If you do make sure to leave that rating and that review, it really helps out with the algorithm

01:51:00.820 magic and everything.

01:51:02.820 Thanks everybody for coming by.

01:51:04.060 We had a lot of great questions.

01:51:05.940 Always fantastic to have the dream team back.

01:51:08.120 We'll definitely do it again soon.

01:51:09.980 Thanks for watching everyone.

01:51:11.480 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - February 28, 2023

Postmodern Traditionalism ｜ Guests： Last Things and Gio Pennacchietti ｜ 2⧸27⧸23

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