The Auron MacIntyre Show - Regime Conservatism ｜ Guest： J. Burden

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.720 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.240 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:38.060 So I think a lot of people, of course, look at the GOP in general,

00:00:43.180 but specifically a lot of conservative leaders,

00:00:46.000 and ask themselves, why is it so important to these people

00:00:50.760 that they have to be loved by their enemies?

00:00:53.440 Why are they constantly bowing and scraping for the approval

00:00:57.360 of those that seem to hate them?

00:00:59.480 What is the dynamic where people who should be representing me,

00:01:04.720 should be representing my interests,

00:01:06.800 should care about my values, my family, the place I live,

00:01:10.500 why do they seem so much more interested in signaling to the people who live in New York

00:01:15.660 or somewhere in California or in Washington, D.C.

00:01:19.440 than to trying to reach my goals, achieve the things that I elected them or paid them or listen to them

00:01:26.580 because I want them to move towards these issues.

00:01:29.920 What is this driving mechanism?

00:01:33.020 And today discussing that topic with me is a YouTube commentator,

00:01:36.660 a guy with a great interview show.

00:01:38.840 Jay Burden, thanks for coming on, man.

00:01:40.720 Yeah, thank you so much for having me on, Aaron.

00:01:42.800 Yeah, it was great.

00:01:43.500 I got to meet you when we had the Skildings event.

00:01:46.820 And of course, I've been on your show.

00:01:48.160 Lots of our friends have been on there, guys.

00:01:50.420 So make sure that you check that out.

00:01:52.160 Jay's always got great conversations going on over at his channel.

00:01:57.040 But we want to dive into this topic of regime conservatism.

00:02:02.540 Why is it so popular?

00:02:04.020 Why does it seem that the base is demanding more and more from their leadership,

00:02:10.100 more and more from their politicians, more and more from their commentators?

00:02:13.740 And yet there's this constant division, even when the base, the customers, the voters,

00:02:19.100 the people who should be driving the interests of these people,

00:02:23.640 why are they not getting a response?

00:02:25.640 Why do all of these people seem still stuck back in the 1990s or something

00:02:31.940 when it comes to political opposition?

00:02:33.700 We're going to dive into all that, guys.

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00:04:12.960 All right, Jay, so you suggested this topic

00:04:16.140 and I thought it was important because it's timely.

00:04:19.020 There's another example of this that's kind of popped up here recently.

00:04:23.300 Could you explain a little bit about kind of Rod Dreher

00:04:26.180 and his background with regime conservatism

00:04:30.020 kind of signaling in these really public ways

00:04:33.900 that he's on the right side when it seems necessary to him?

00:04:38.320 So sure thing.

00:04:39.140 So I think you and I both are on a similar page.

00:04:42.000 We don't like drama, right?

00:04:44.380 So I'm not trying to turn this into kind of a personal attack on Rod

00:04:48.360 past what it's kind of necessary to do.

00:04:50.320 So I've met him in person.

00:04:51.700 He was very kind to me.

00:04:52.940 That's not what I'm doing here.

00:04:54.560 So Dreher, for those who don't know,

00:04:56.900 has had a relatively long career.

00:04:59.940 He was at the American Conservative for quite a long time.

00:05:02.640 He had his blog there that a lot of people read.

00:05:05.180 And he had a series of books that were kind of,

00:05:07.720 at least the first two were kind of ahead of the curve for conning.

00:05:11.020 His first one, Crunchy Cons, is kind of a book about right-wing hippies, right?

00:05:16.460 So people like Joel Salatin, that kind of thing.

00:05:18.740 Now, the book that was kind of his breakout,

00:05:20.480 one that was extremely influential on me,

00:05:22.400 is a book called The Benedict Option,

00:05:24.520 which is basically a book where he makes an argument

00:05:26.820 that conservatives and particularly religious conservatives

00:05:30.480 need to change how they think about culture and the culture war.

00:05:34.440 Essentially, that just like Benedictine monks, right?

00:05:37.600 We are not in a position of power anymore.

00:05:39.600 We need to think about essentially retreating,

00:05:42.660 creating our own enclaves, our own kind of parallel societies,

00:05:45.780 and manage our own affairs like that.

00:05:49.020 Admittedly, that's now kind of a tired argument,

00:05:51.660 but at the time, it was fresh for a lot of people.

00:05:54.000 Now, most interestingly to this specific event,

00:05:56.540 you wrote a book called Live Not By Lies,

00:05:59.540 which is this kind of, to be honest,

00:06:01.960 this little bit moralizing book about how conservatives,

00:06:05.380 you know, good people need to basically

00:06:08.800 completely divorce themselves from the lies of culture

00:06:12.120 and not allow themselves to be browbeaten

00:06:14.880 into going along with lies,

00:06:17.540 hence the kind of quote from Solzhenitsyn there.

00:06:19.660 And he uses a lot of direct quotes

00:06:22.200 and kind of anecdotes from Christians behind the Iron Curtain.

00:06:25.920 Basically, Christians who were under an atheist hostile regime.

00:06:29.980 So fair enough at this point, right?

00:06:31.500 Like even if you don't like those books,

00:06:33.180 at least there's some kind of consistent line through them.

00:06:36.440 But what's interesting, right,

00:06:37.720 is that Dreher writes one thing and he does another.

00:06:42.120 So the kind of topical part is essentially

00:06:44.920 there's been a news story going around

00:06:46.940 where this traditional Catholic kid

00:06:49.460 got into a fed honeypot on the internet

00:06:52.100 and got his house raided by the feds, right?

00:06:57.260 Allegedly, the thing said,

00:06:58.760 and I should say allegedly because he's a minor,

00:07:01.340 the court documents are sealed,

00:07:03.380 Rod Reher has published them.

00:07:05.840 Yeah, that's really important to this.

00:07:07.480 Like he claimed to have the information

00:07:10.440 from sealed documents from this guy.

00:07:12.980 And he said like,

00:07:14.080 this is the reason I know everything that's going on.

00:07:17.700 And then it turned out he didn't

00:07:19.520 and it was something different.

00:07:20.640 But anyway, sorry, go ahead.

00:07:22.100 Right, exactly.

00:07:23.000 And the reason this is relevant

00:07:24.060 is because initially Dreher had said like,

00:07:26.000 go help this kid out.

00:07:27.260 Oh, wait, this kid may have said something

00:07:29.140 I don't approve of.

00:07:30.160 I'm going to publicly basically go forward

00:07:33.540 and say like, don't give to this.

00:07:35.160 This is bad.

00:07:36.440 So let's just take an aside.

00:07:38.800 I don't know what actually happened here.

00:07:41.360 There's a very real possibility

00:07:42.640 this kid does or said things

00:07:44.800 that I don't agree with, right?

00:07:46.180 But, you know, we know as both Christians,

00:07:50.100 the normal, you know, policy there

00:07:52.280 is either confront someone privately

00:07:54.440 or if you think that someone,

00:07:56.080 especially one of your people, right?

00:07:57.600 This guy's a conservative Christian.

00:08:00.340 Don't make this into a big dramatic thing.

00:08:03.160 Take it down quietly.

00:08:04.160 And if that were the case,

00:08:05.080 we wouldn't be having this discussion.

00:08:07.180 But, right, there is a significant amount

00:08:10.120 of cultural clout to be created, right?

00:08:14.960 From turning this into a mountain

00:08:18.160 where you can plant your flag

00:08:19.540 and say, I'm a conservative,

00:08:21.060 but you know what I hate more than anything else?

00:08:23.500 Those people over there,

00:08:24.960 you know, the people who are to the right of me.

00:08:27.460 And so initially, right, on the face of it,

00:08:29.800 that doesn't make sense, right?

00:08:31.340 Like if we view American politics

00:08:33.200 as a fight between two equivalent parties, right?

00:08:36.820 Left-wing America and right-wing America,

00:08:39.080 why would you want to essentially sell out to your enemies?

00:08:42.940 You know, give them a leg up.

00:08:45.780 So if you steel man the position of Dreher

00:08:48.680 and more regime conservatives,

00:08:50.260 David French, for one, springs to mind,

00:08:52.500 they would say, well, I'm just so principled.

00:08:55.620 You know, I would rather lose a thousand times

00:08:58.960 than win dishonestly.

00:09:01.600 And they may believe that.

00:09:03.580 I'm not entirely convinced, right?

00:09:05.420 But that is a thing that people have said.

00:09:07.100 But one of the things that I think

00:09:09.440 is integral to understanding this

00:09:11.360 is an idea mold bug, Curtis Yarvin,

00:09:14.380 he came up with, right?

00:09:16.580 Which is that essentially,

00:09:17.760 the Republicans and the Democrat,

00:09:18.960 the right and the left in America,

00:09:21.280 they're not the same thing.

00:09:22.980 They are two parts of a similar organization

00:09:25.020 with different functions.

00:09:26.660 So he described blue America,

00:09:29.020 the Democrats, the liberals,

00:09:30.440 whatever you want to say,

00:09:31.500 as the inner party.

00:09:33.000 And the inner party is the party of power.

00:09:35.180 Basically, the Democrats are to politics

00:09:37.900 what, you know, GM is to car reviews, right?

00:09:40.760 GM always seems to win somehow.

00:09:43.060 And he found out, well, to be honest,

00:09:44.540 it's because they own a lot of those places,

00:09:45.860 similar to the Yankees.

00:09:46.820 They're kind of the default.

00:09:48.520 And the Republicans are always

00:09:50.140 kind of playing catch up.

00:09:52.160 And so what he basically said is,

00:09:53.720 and I realize I've been talking a good bit,

00:09:55.160 Aaron, I'll throw it back to you,

00:09:56.420 is that essentially,

00:09:57.540 the Republicans aren't a real party.

00:09:59.840 They're essentially a party designed

00:10:02.600 to, one, manage dissent,

00:10:05.160 and two, to essentially gather resources

00:10:07.720 from their base.

00:10:09.280 They're not a party interested in winning.

00:10:12.060 And you see this very clearly

00:10:13.420 when these kind of regime conservatives

00:10:16.460 get into power.

00:10:17.660 What do they do?

00:10:19.300 Absolutely nothing.

00:10:20.820 What they certainly don't do

00:10:22.100 is increase their power

00:10:23.260 or the power of their base.

00:10:25.200 And so I think that

00:10:26.420 this kind of specific instance

00:10:27.920 in which Dreher makes

00:10:29.440 his true allegiances known,

00:10:31.740 right, which is to the

00:10:32.800 true party of power,

00:10:34.640 is kind of a crystallization of that.

00:10:37.260 Do you see what I'm getting at, Aaron?

00:10:38.540 Absolutely.

00:10:39.200 And yeah, I think there's a couple things here

00:10:41.180 that are important.

00:10:42.100 First, like you said,

00:10:44.040 a lot of these people

00:10:45.980 do believe this.

00:10:47.340 So I really have zero doubt

00:10:49.680 that Dreher and

00:10:51.180 David French

00:10:55.440 believe that they are principled

00:10:58.140 and that they are doing this.

00:10:59.500 In fact, I think

00:11:00.320 a lot of people

00:11:01.620 inside the GOP,

00:11:03.940 inside Republican,

00:11:04.800 you know, apparatus,

00:11:06.120 inside Conservative Inc.,

00:11:07.400 they believe what they're saying.

00:11:09.640 There's really not,

00:11:11.820 there's, you know,

00:11:13.080 when I was outside,

00:11:14.520 you know,

00:11:14.940 any of this stuff

00:11:16.060 and I had never interacted

00:11:17.120 with any of this stuff,

00:11:18.480 I thought there was a lot of,

00:11:20.280 oh, well,

00:11:20.780 someone's in on it.

00:11:21.860 Like at some level,

00:11:23.140 these people are winking and nodding

00:11:24.660 about how they're managing this stuff.

00:11:26.840 But I think a lot of these people

00:11:28.060 really do believe 100%

00:11:30.700 that they are doing something correct.

00:11:33.860 But the incentives

00:11:35.020 have lined up in a way

00:11:37.040 that creates the dynamic

00:11:38.780 that you're talking about.

00:11:40.720 And this is always confusing for people

00:11:42.320 because, you know,

00:11:43.240 they think that when I suggest,

00:11:45.260 when I say things like,

00:11:47.540 if the Republican Party vanished,

00:11:50.160 that would be the best,

00:11:51.540 that would be the most dangerous thing

00:11:53.000 for the regime.

00:11:53.760 Like that would be,

00:11:54.780 that would put the regime

00:11:55.480 in a far more dangerous situation

00:11:57.360 than a Republican victory.

00:11:59.840 They don't,

00:12:00.600 they think,

00:12:00.960 oh, well,

00:12:01.200 then you think there's some conspiracy

00:12:02.880 inside the Republican Party

00:12:04.660 to control all political dissent.

00:12:07.940 It's like,

00:12:08.400 no,

00:12:09.360 but it's,

00:12:09.940 but its existence

00:12:11.320 allows for that dynamic to exist

00:12:13.800 because it creates that situation

00:12:15.740 that you're talking about.

00:12:17.360 So I think it's difficult

00:12:18.180 for people to understand

00:12:19.660 why,

00:12:21.100 how someone could fully believe

00:12:22.620 that they're doing the right thing,

00:12:24.400 that they're fighting the correct fight,

00:12:26.560 but,

00:12:26.840 but could simultaneously then act

00:12:29.160 as a piece of controlled opposition

00:12:31.500 or could,

00:12:32.560 could show regime,

00:12:33.620 regime loyalty,

00:12:34.540 could be the outer party

00:12:36.280 in a way that is helpful

00:12:37.400 to the inner party.

00:12:38.680 Well,

00:12:39.200 definitely.

00:12:40.000 And so that default status

00:12:41.680 that I mentioned,

00:12:42.700 in addition to kind of being the,

00:12:45.320 the winner,

00:12:46.620 right,

00:12:46.980 in this game,

00:12:47.720 you also control

00:12:49.120 what is high status.

00:12:51.020 And so a lot of what we're talking about

00:12:53.340 is actually people seeking status,

00:12:55.740 right?

00:12:56.400 Like the,

00:12:56.760 the low end version of that,

00:12:57.980 like,

00:12:58.140 well,

00:12:58.220 what's cool.

00:12:58.880 And the high end version of that

00:13:00.200 is essentially what do smart people do?

00:13:02.300 And if you look at smart people,

00:13:03.800 things,

00:13:04.460 they're effectively becoming a Democrat,

00:13:07.460 right?

00:13:08.060 So for instance,

00:13:08.820 right?

00:13:09.080 Like smart people hate Trump

00:13:11.360 and why do they hate Trump?

00:13:12.820 Well,

00:13:13.040 he's backwards,

00:13:14.200 mean,

00:13:14.440 racist,

00:13:14.760 all of those things,

00:13:15.940 right?

00:13:16.080 High class.

00:13:16.960 And I'm putting all of this in quotes.

00:13:18.780 People aren't like those other

00:13:21.460 kind of like gross conservatives,

00:13:24.380 right?

00:13:24.700 And so that's kind of the dynamic

00:13:25.860 I'm talking about.

00:13:26.800 And by controlling that

00:13:28.420 kind of prestige network,

00:13:31.000 you know,

00:13:31.280 you essentially filter that out.

00:13:33.080 And it's not necessarily like

00:13:34.540 there's some mustache twirling villain

00:13:36.420 at the top saying like,

00:13:37.500 oh yes,

00:13:37.840 Rod Dreyer write this article.

00:13:39.300 Not at all.

00:13:40.140 But it's when you control

00:13:41.800 the kind of mechanisms of culture,

00:13:44.640 right?

00:13:44.860 Like,

00:13:45.060 let's be honest,

00:13:45.860 we all know

00:13:46.760 what every actor,

00:13:48.900 who do they vote for,

00:13:49.840 right?

00:13:51.280 Exactly.

00:13:52.200 Similarly to the Ivies,

00:13:53.540 anything like that,

00:13:54.840 essentially the institutions

00:13:56.420 of legitimation,

00:13:57.900 right?

00:13:58.060 Where if you're an elite,

00:13:59.100 what makes you more elite?

00:14:00.820 Well,

00:14:00.960 essentially getting more gold stars

00:14:02.700 from the regime,

00:14:03.780 admittedly in different forms.

00:14:05.240 But if you kind of follow that up,

00:14:07.220 it's not truly neutral,

00:14:09.560 right?

00:14:09.860 And so what's interesting

00:14:10.760 is you actually go to Dreyer's book.

00:14:12.580 He's very,

00:14:13.140 very good at pointing this out.

00:14:14.560 Good at pointing out

00:14:15.760 how in the Soviet Union,

00:14:17.040 you know,

00:14:17.220 if you were a person of faith,

00:14:18.340 even if you didn't feature,

00:14:20.020 you know,

00:14:20.300 face direct oppression,

00:14:22.200 right?

00:14:22.660 Even if you didn't necessarily

00:14:23.840 have to go to a gulag,

00:14:25.540 well,

00:14:26.040 you were seen as backwards.

00:14:27.800 You were seen as a rope.

00:14:29.460 You were blocked

00:14:30.960 from certain professional organizations,

00:14:32.800 even if not by law,

00:14:34.240 just because it would make

00:14:35.780 that organization less prestigious

00:14:37.760 if you were a part of it.

00:14:39.180 And so that mechanism

00:14:40.920 essentially allows

00:14:42.180 what would have been

00:14:43.460 at one time

00:14:44.260 kind of controversial

00:14:45.180 political opinions

00:14:46.340 to be relegated to

00:14:48.140 essentially the layer

00:14:50.320 of social acceptability,

00:14:52.100 right?

00:14:52.220 Where you know very well,

00:14:53.300 right?

00:14:53.540 If you,

00:14:54.020 in your previous career

00:14:54.820 as a teacher,

00:14:55.760 made what were normal opinions

00:14:58.200 on gay marriage,

00:14:59.520 you know,

00:15:00.140 25 years ago,

00:15:01.300 if you said that,

00:15:03.040 I mean,

00:15:03.420 there's a very real possibility

00:15:04.760 you'd be looking for a job.

00:15:05.980 And that's on,

00:15:07.360 and you can see that trend

00:15:09.120 applied at essentially

00:15:10.120 every,

00:15:10.820 every layer of society.

00:15:12.200 And so I guess that

00:15:13.440 my point in this

00:15:14.500 is not just to kind of,

00:15:15.580 you know,

00:15:15.800 ramble about prestige,

00:15:17.040 but it's the in controlling

00:15:18.800 what is acceptable,

00:15:20.940 what's good,

00:15:21.860 what smart people do.

00:15:23.360 You can kind of pull

00:15:24.600 all of society along

00:15:25.900 by the nose.

00:15:27.960 Absolutely.

00:15:28.760 There's a reason

00:15:29.520 that every one of these people

00:15:30.780 complains about

00:15:32.000 why they don't have

00:15:32.860 a New York Times bestseller,

00:15:34.560 or you can tell

00:15:35.360 which ones have the opportunity

00:15:36.840 to get a New York Times bestseller.

00:15:38.320 It's not the person

00:15:38.880 who would actually

00:15:39.900 sell the most books.

00:15:41.360 It's the person

00:15:42.080 who would please

00:15:43.380 or would be acceptable

00:15:44.400 to those that make

00:15:46.280 the selection at the paper.

00:15:47.720 And there's never

00:15:48.980 any interest

00:15:49.980 in finding a different way

00:15:51.880 to credential

00:15:52.800 or legitimize themselves.

00:15:55.120 They're more interested

00:15:55.840 in appearing favorably

00:15:57.600 in the pages

00:15:58.420 of already established

00:16:00.320 papers that would create

00:16:02.220 social cachet.

00:16:03.200 And that's what gives them

00:16:04.900 their status

00:16:05.800 inside the conservative movement

00:16:07.460 oftentimes, right?

00:16:08.740 That's what gives them

00:16:09.560 access to fundraising.

00:16:12.460 That's what gives them

00:16:13.120 access to establishment politicians,

00:16:16.220 the ability to suggest legislation,

00:16:19.200 the ability to be a mover

00:16:20.920 and shaker is tied to this.

00:16:22.540 That's why somebody

00:16:23.120 like Mitch McConnell,

00:16:24.200 who couldn't be further

00:16:25.740 from the interests

00:16:27.160 of the average conservative,

00:16:29.060 wields so much power

00:16:29.980 inside the Republican Party

00:16:33.100 because he holds

00:16:35.160 all kinds of positions

00:16:37.260 that give him access

00:16:38.560 to money and power

00:16:39.660 that allow him to decide

00:16:41.620 who's going to be able

00:16:42.360 to get fundraising

00:16:43.440 and financing handed

00:16:45.260 and doled out to them.

00:16:46.680 And that happens

00:16:47.220 inside the GOP.

00:16:48.300 But of course,

00:16:48.760 it also happens

00:16:49.600 inside the halls

00:16:50.540 of conservative thought leadership,

00:16:53.100 think tanks, media,

00:16:54.160 those kind of things.

00:16:55.520 And so being closer

00:16:56.760 to regime respectability

00:16:58.640 grants you this status

00:17:01.100 even inside

00:17:01.880 the opposing movement,

00:17:03.260 which then means

00:17:03.980 that the left

00:17:04.440 is always dictating,

00:17:05.540 like you said,

00:17:06.360 who's getting status

00:17:07.240 handed out to them.

00:17:09.120 Well, and definitely, right?

00:17:10.080 And you see that

00:17:11.160 that sort of is

00:17:12.720 at the core of the problem,

00:17:14.520 which is for conservative elites,

00:17:16.700 right?

00:17:16.980 These kind of like large figures

00:17:18.820 in the generally Republican

00:17:21.060 leaning sphere,

00:17:23.580 essentially who are their patrons

00:17:25.000 and who are their clients, right?

00:17:26.480 To look at it very,

00:17:27.500 very kind of like simply.

00:17:31.500 And the problem is

00:17:32.400 from one perspective,

00:17:33.660 people like you and I

00:17:34.660 are literally in some cases

00:17:37.080 they're patrons, right?

00:17:37.960 Like many of these people

00:17:38.860 receive donations

00:17:39.860 from normal conservative Americans

00:17:42.220 or from conservative businesses.

00:17:44.580 And so from that,

00:17:45.900 you would logically think,

00:17:47.140 well, I should get something for it.

00:17:49.420 You know,

00:17:49.560 I should get some representation.

00:17:50.920 And while they're very happy

00:17:52.540 to take your money,

00:17:54.360 you cannot,

00:17:54.960 you cannot give them

00:17:57.400 the prestige

00:17:58.320 that a normal organization,

00:18:00.840 quote unquote,

00:18:01.180 normal organization can,

00:18:03.040 right?

00:18:03.440 And so essentially,

00:18:04.340 you see this,

00:18:05.580 that, well,

00:18:05.980 what happens

00:18:06.500 when a conservative elite

00:18:07.720 violates some kind of core tenant

00:18:10.160 of the Republican base,

00:18:12.980 right?

00:18:13.180 Like when a conservative elite

00:18:14.600 says something like,

00:18:15.480 okay,

00:18:15.680 well, maybe,

00:18:16.700 actually,

00:18:16.980 this is a perfect example.

00:18:18.460 Gay surrogacy,

00:18:19.420 right?

00:18:19.540 The idea that two men

00:18:21.100 can get quote unquote married,

00:18:23.340 you know,

00:18:23.480 essentially smuggle a child

00:18:24.900 into the country.

00:18:26.220 Well,

00:18:26.920 if you look at the base,

00:18:27.720 that is a very,

00:18:28.480 very unpopular thing.

00:18:30.200 But you can get

00:18:32.080 all of the congratulations

00:18:33.200 you want

00:18:33.960 from profit

00:18:34.460 of conservative voices,

00:18:35.600 right?

00:18:36.400 Now,

00:18:36.820 if we kind of flip that around,

00:18:38.900 you know,

00:18:39.120 we have someone say something

00:18:40.340 that is very,

00:18:41.100 very popular

00:18:41.760 about the conservative base.

00:18:43.360 But I mean,

00:18:43.580 you can imagine

00:18:44.180 what would happen

00:18:44.820 if someone at,

00:18:45.640 you know,

00:18:46.340 Fox News on air

00:18:47.920 basically said,

00:18:49.020 you know,

00:18:49.500 I think that's,

00:18:50.480 I think that's child smuggling

00:18:51.680 and they should be thrown in jail.

00:18:53.460 I mean,

00:18:53.920 they may not be,

00:18:55.260 you know,

00:18:55.360 they may not completely

00:18:56.040 lose their job,

00:18:56.800 but they would face

00:18:57.340 much,

00:18:57.960 much more pushback,

00:18:59.640 right?

00:18:59.820 And they're probably

00:19:00.480 not getting any choice spots

00:19:02.060 on the shows

00:19:02.780 in rotation.

00:19:03.740 A hundred percent.

00:19:05.020 And when you,

00:19:06.200 the reason that I bring this up

00:19:07.300 is not just to complain

00:19:08.220 that it's not fair,

00:19:09.280 right?

00:19:09.440 That's kind of a,

00:19:10.420 that's kind of trite.

00:19:12.140 But to say that

00:19:13.000 this is not a,

00:19:14.060 this is not a dualistic system,

00:19:15.600 right?

00:19:15.760 This is not two equal

00:19:17.320 and opposite forces

00:19:18.220 pushing against each other.

00:19:19.500 It is kind of the inner

00:19:20.640 and outer party,

00:19:22.480 right?

00:19:22.640 And so that's truly the,

00:19:23.860 one of the interesting things

00:19:25.020 I think Trump brought up,

00:19:26.020 right?

00:19:26.140 Is this idea of the swamp,

00:19:28.660 you know,

00:19:28.780 the idea of rhinos,

00:19:30.340 which has existed for a while,

00:19:31.500 but very clearly delineating

00:19:33.300 the difference between people

00:19:35.040 like,

00:19:35.600 you know,

00:19:36.080 Mitch McConnell

00:19:36.660 and the base.

00:19:38.640 And so I think that that

00:19:39.560 is an interesting split

00:19:41.500 to watch take place

00:19:42.540 because you can tell

00:19:43.380 they're kind of

00:19:43.880 uncomfortable about it.

00:19:45.060 Like they don't like

00:19:46.060 talking about that.

00:19:47.480 And anytime there's a chance

00:19:48.860 to essentially close that gap,

00:19:50.900 right?

00:19:51.620 Like,

00:19:51.940 like Liz Cheney,

00:19:53.020 you know,

00:19:53.380 any,

00:19:53.700 like no matter how distant it is,

00:19:56.060 but a chance to have a Republican

00:19:57.660 who can quote unquote

00:19:58.620 save the soul of the nation,

00:20:01.000 you know,

00:20:01.620 they kind of jump on it

00:20:02.800 and give people

00:20:03.500 who have no charisma

00:20:04.960 or really traction

00:20:06.060 at the base

00:20:06.660 an absolutely inordinate amount

00:20:08.640 of screen time

00:20:09.900 and support

00:20:10.440 from kind of official,

00:20:12.200 official press outlets.

00:20:13.220 Yeah,

00:20:14.080 the Nikki Haley,

00:20:15.120 you know,

00:20:15.540 just out of nowhere,

00:20:16.840 you know,

00:20:17.020 no connection

00:20:17.520 to where we're talking

00:20:18.040 about now.

00:20:18.460 She's surging

00:20:19.340 with support among Democrats.

00:20:21.100 It's thought I'd mention that

00:20:22.180 just for no reason at all.

00:20:23.920 No reason at all.

00:20:25.060 Yeah,

00:20:25.480 no,

00:20:25.660 I want to get into

00:20:26.360 that Trump dynamic

00:20:27.140 because I think that's

00:20:27.820 that's really essential

00:20:28.920 that you,

00:20:30.740 that what you just hit on there

00:20:31.920 and why that splits away

00:20:33.540 from the machine

00:20:34.300 and why that scares

00:20:35.180 people in both the GOP

00:20:37.060 and the Democratic establishment.

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00:22:17.380 All right, Jay,

00:22:18.260 so you were talking

00:22:18.940 about this thing

00:22:20.320 that Trump introduced

00:22:21.420 with the swamp, right?

00:22:22.520 And everyone noticed

00:22:24.400 how difficult it was

00:22:25.960 for Trump

00:22:26.620 to get things done,

00:22:27.540 of course,

00:22:27.860 when he got in,

00:22:28.800 but even coming

00:22:29.500 into the conversation

00:22:30.720 it was very clear

00:22:31.600 who was arrayed against him,

00:22:33.780 how he was dangerous

00:22:34.760 to the establishment,

00:22:35.980 how they were willing

00:22:36.860 to elevate pretty much

00:22:37.980 anyone but him.

00:22:39.520 And it's very weird

00:22:40.220 because Trump is

00:22:41.400 a blue dog Democrat

00:22:42.480 at best, right?

00:22:43.180 This is a guy

00:22:43.780 who was like

00:22:44.520 waving pride flags

00:22:45.900 on stage,

00:22:46.820 like this is a guy

00:22:47.620 who still talks about

00:22:49.100 how much he likes

00:22:49.720 Caitlyn Jenner and stuff.

00:22:51.060 Like this is not

00:22:51.720 a far-right guy

00:22:53.440 by anybody's

00:22:54.940 real imagination,

00:22:56.180 but for some reason

00:22:57.480 the media

00:22:58.900 and even the GOP

00:23:00.420 establishment

00:23:01.140 treat him

00:23:02.260 like he's this crazy

00:23:03.980 radical bomb thrower

00:23:05.340 even though his positions

00:23:06.720 are at the very best

00:23:08.780 center-left.

00:23:10.560 And I think the answer

00:23:11.980 as to why that really is

00:23:14.040 is that he reveals

00:23:15.440 kind of the controlled nature

00:23:18.220 of the situation.

00:23:20.100 He doesn't have

00:23:21.380 ideological barriers.

00:23:23.020 He just says

00:23:23.840 what he thinks

00:23:24.400 the base wants to hear.

00:23:25.700 A lot of people might think

00:23:26.800 that's like a downside

00:23:27.880 of somebody.

00:23:28.660 I get that.

00:23:29.180 Like, oh,

00:23:29.420 he's unprincipled.

00:23:30.340 He just says

00:23:30.760 what people want to hear.

00:23:31.440 But that means

00:23:32.320 he ends up reflecting

00:23:33.160 the actual interests

00:23:35.300 of the base

00:23:36.080 rather than the way

00:23:37.240 that they are supposed

00:23:38.020 to be kind of herded

00:23:39.600 by the establishment.

00:23:41.600 And that means

00:23:42.240 he's kind of channeling

00:23:43.940 the zeitgeist

00:23:44.780 of actual

00:23:45.840 middle America.

00:23:47.440 And that terrifies

00:23:48.640 the establishment

00:23:49.540 at this point.

00:23:51.180 Well, definitely.

00:23:52.240 And so that

00:23:53.000 I think that a lot of people,

00:23:55.120 particularly

00:23:55.580 kind of conservative Americans,

00:23:57.580 and I just want to say this,

00:23:58.720 I'm not saying this

00:23:59.840 out of a

00:24:01.440 I'm not saying this

00:24:02.260 to punch down.

00:24:03.360 These are my people.

00:24:04.560 And part of the reason

00:24:05.220 I get so worked up

00:24:06.420 about this

00:24:06.880 is these are my people,

00:24:08.380 right?

00:24:08.580 And they're getting

00:24:09.080 a raw deal

00:24:09.700 is essentially

00:24:10.780 a lot of

00:24:11.660 red Americans

00:24:12.580 have been sold

00:24:13.540 a lie about politics.

00:24:15.600 And politics

00:24:16.880 at its most fundamental level

00:24:18.520 is punishing

00:24:19.280 your enemies,

00:24:20.240 rewarding your friends.

00:24:21.780 And essentially,

00:24:23.080 what the right

00:24:24.120 has been given

00:24:24.820 for, let's just be honest,

00:24:25.940 the last 50 to 60 years

00:24:27.860 is that,

00:24:29.060 okay,

00:24:29.760 vote us in,

00:24:30.820 we'll leave you alone,

00:24:32.520 nothing else.

00:24:33.820 And don't get me wrong,

00:24:35.240 given the alternative

00:24:36.000 of, you know,

00:24:36.720 someone sticking their finger

00:24:37.780 in your eye,

00:24:38.300 I mean,

00:24:38.460 I guess that's preferable,

00:24:39.800 but that is not

00:24:40.520 the same deal

00:24:41.200 that you get

00:24:41.600 on the other side

00:24:42.280 of the aisle,

00:24:42.840 of the aisle,

00:24:44.400 right?

00:24:44.740 You will get rewarded.

00:24:46.180 You know,

00:24:46.420 if we're being

00:24:46.920 a Democrat client,

00:24:48.860 you know,

00:24:49.040 let's take the example

00:24:49.960 of trans people,

00:24:51.080 right?

00:24:51.520 If you're transgender

00:24:52.180 right now,

00:24:52.940 you can sign up

00:24:53.820 with the U.S. military,

00:24:54.820 get your surgery paid for

00:24:56.480 and get an indefinite

00:24:58.320 waiver to deploy,

00:25:00.980 which basically means

00:25:02.140 you get a free check

00:25:02.920 from the government,

00:25:03.700 expensive medical care,

00:25:05.160 you have no uniform

00:25:06.060 registration requirements

00:25:07.300 and you don't have

00:25:07.740 to do anything,

00:25:08.660 right?

00:25:09.760 Whereas,

00:25:10.420 let's be honest,

00:25:11.100 if you're a,

00:25:11.620 you know,

00:25:12.280 if you're a white boy

00:25:13.140 from Oklahoma

00:25:13.700 and you sign up,

00:25:15.300 I mean,

00:25:15.820 are you getting

00:25:16.700 any one of those?

00:25:18.680 Exactly.

00:25:19.400 And so that's

00:25:20.160 a very crystallized example.

00:25:21.640 You see it

00:25:22.040 in other places as well,

00:25:23.680 right?

00:25:23.800 The way the college debt

00:25:24.740 is set up,

00:25:25.680 the way civil rights law

00:25:26.860 is set up,

00:25:27.900 that there is active

00:25:28.980 discrimination

00:25:29.920 for Democrat clients.

00:25:33.040 And so

00:25:33.360 when we look

00:25:34.400 at the Republican situation,

00:25:36.240 we have one person,

00:25:38.420 Trump,

00:25:38.800 and I'll be honest,

00:25:39.320 I've never voted for the man,

00:25:40.320 I don't really vote,

00:25:41.520 but who kind of teases

00:25:42.780 the idea that like,

00:25:43.900 hey,

00:25:44.000 vote for me

00:25:44.540 and I might do something

00:25:45.440 for you.

00:25:46.360 People lose their mind

00:25:47.860 and you see people

00:25:49.340 who don't have this idea

00:25:50.740 of patronage,

00:25:51.840 right?

00:25:52.100 Vote for me

00:25:52.660 and I'll do something

00:25:53.380 for you.

00:25:54.600 They kind of can't

00:25:55.320 understand the phenomenon.

00:25:56.780 They're like,

00:25:57.160 well,

00:25:57.440 why can't DeSantis

00:25:58.660 or blah,

00:25:59.280 blah,

00:25:59.420 blah,

00:25:59.660 do the same thing?

00:26:00.680 They have the same policies.

00:26:02.420 And the dirty little secret

00:26:03.420 is policy doesn't matter.

00:26:04.860 No one,

00:26:05.200 legitimately,

00:26:05.820 no one cares.

00:26:06.600 If you ever talk

00:26:07.580 to someone

00:26:08.080 who isn't a massive

00:26:09.020 politics nerd,

00:26:09.980 you'll figure this out

00:26:10.940 pretty quickly.

00:26:11.920 Unfortunately,

00:26:12.320 most of the people

00:26:13.060 who write about politics

00:26:14.020 are politics nerds.

00:26:15.540 But essentially,

00:26:16.460 right,

00:26:16.860 even the whiff of that

00:26:18.160 and people don't just

00:26:19.480 have loyalty

00:26:20.020 to the platform,

00:26:20.920 they have loyalty

00:26:21.840 to the man.

00:26:23.140 And we're seeing

00:26:23.680 a much more,

00:26:25.380 weirdly enough,

00:26:26.140 honest version of politics

00:26:27.720 than what we've been sold

00:26:28.720 for the last 50 to 60 years.

00:26:31.080 And so I think

00:26:32.080 that it's sort of

00:26:32.640 two things at once,

00:26:33.620 which is one,

00:26:34.880 Trump never really

00:26:35.640 got the memo

00:26:36.280 that the Republican Party

00:26:37.400 isn't a real party.

00:26:39.100 You know,

00:26:39.200 he's like,

00:26:39.520 oh,

00:26:39.640 well,

00:26:39.760 I'm in charge.

00:26:40.400 I guess I'm in charge.

00:26:41.240 Yeah.

00:26:41.960 And well,

00:26:42.720 I guess I'm in charge,

00:26:43.560 so I might as well,

00:26:44.780 you know,

00:26:44.940 I deliver what the customer wants,

00:26:47.480 right?

00:26:47.660 Like,

00:26:47.840 that's my job.

00:26:48.760 Like,

00:26:49.040 so I'm in the head

00:26:50.440 of the business.

00:26:50.900 My job is to serve the customer.

00:26:52.540 And yeah,

00:26:52.780 he didn't get the memo

00:26:54.040 that he's actually supposed

00:26:54.980 to be filtering

00:26:55.860 what the customer wants,

00:26:56.940 not delivering it.

00:26:58.280 A hundred percent.

00:26:59.260 And part of that

00:27:00.400 is that,

00:27:01.240 again,

00:27:01.720 it goes back to that idea

00:27:02.700 that this is not really

00:27:03.920 a two-party state.

00:27:05.500 You know,

00:27:05.600 there is one system

00:27:06.680 for power and prestige.

00:27:08.780 And alternatively,

00:27:10.340 you know,

00:27:10.600 you're essentially,

00:27:11.620 your job is,

00:27:12.620 like you said,

00:27:13.300 to filter the customer.

00:27:15.160 You know,

00:27:15.280 it's essentially

00:27:15.700 to keep a certain part

00:27:17.240 the non-client groups

00:27:19.040 happy enough

00:27:19.980 to not cause problems

00:27:21.180 and use them

00:27:22.660 as an economic battery

00:27:23.760 to power

00:27:25.100 the patronage machine

00:27:26.420 of the other side.

00:27:27.960 And so,

00:27:28.440 it's a little bit

00:27:29.240 of a simplistic model,

00:27:30.540 but it very accurately

00:27:32.020 predicts what we've seen.

00:27:33.940 And again,

00:27:35.000 it's one of those things

00:27:35.820 where you can very clearly see

00:27:38.120 in a situation like this one

00:27:39.880 where there's controversy,

00:27:40.940 there's a lawsuit involved

00:27:42.140 where someone's,

00:27:44.740 where their true allegiances lie.

00:27:46.620 You know,

00:27:47.220 when there's a moment

00:27:47.900 of crisis,

00:27:48.800 who do they default to,

00:27:50.520 right?

00:27:50.680 Do they default to saying,

00:27:51.820 I don't know the details,

00:27:53.040 I'll just shut up.

00:27:54.200 Or do they

00:27:55.440 essentially feed someone

00:27:57.780 into the maw of the beast?

00:27:59.460 You know,

00:27:59.940 use this opportunity

00:28:01.420 to increase their cachet

00:28:03.300 with this monster.

00:28:05.040 And when someone does that,

00:28:07.060 I would,

00:28:08.700 I would advocate,

00:28:09.960 don't forget it.

00:28:11.420 You know,

00:28:11.780 Dreyer's done this before.

00:28:13.560 He's canceled people before.

00:28:15.200 And when we look at like,

00:28:16.700 okay,

00:28:16.880 what should we do?

00:28:18.220 Because obviously,

00:28:19.280 you know,

00:28:19.440 in this whole conversation

00:28:20.460 about netter,

00:28:21.880 no enemies to the right,

00:28:23.000 people have brought up,

00:28:24.220 well,

00:28:24.360 what if someone

00:28:24.960 who's politically allied with me

00:28:26.520 does something morally inexcusable,

00:28:29.260 right?

00:28:29.540 Substitute your,

00:28:30.180 your favorite crime in there.

00:28:31.660 Well,

00:28:32.100 to be honest,

00:28:32.720 right,

00:28:33.540 that should be something

00:28:34.460 that you and I think about.

00:28:35.440 That does present a moral quandary.

00:28:37.380 But at the same time,

00:28:39.220 sacrificing them

00:28:40.220 on the altar of ball

00:28:41.520 to get good boy points

00:28:43.100 from the regime,

00:28:44.200 that's probably not it

00:28:45.720 to be perfectly honest,

00:28:46.820 especially when you're doing it

00:28:48.020 to get internet clout.

00:28:49.820 Yeah.

00:28:50.000 You know,

00:28:50.520 that's really critical.

00:28:52.060 This,

00:28:52.280 this is so hard

00:28:53.540 for,

00:28:54.400 for some people

00:28:55.360 because they can't draw this line,

00:28:57.560 but it's really essential.

00:28:59.160 Your moral duty

00:29:00.920 in how you're going to interact

00:29:03.060 with the situation

00:29:03.780 is not the same

00:29:05.200 as your need

00:29:06.880 to publicly,

00:29:07.740 you know,

00:29:09.540 fillet the,

00:29:10.300 the,

00:29:10.780 the administration

00:29:12.340 or the,

00:29:12.900 the regime.

00:29:13.520 Like these are,

00:29:14.280 those are not the same thing.

00:29:15.640 Like if you're looking

00:29:16.440 to increase your status

00:29:18.700 by showing how much

00:29:20.480 you can throw someone

00:29:21.360 under the bus,

00:29:22.000 you can,

00:29:22.680 you,

00:29:23.260 you can sacrifice an enemy,

00:29:25.620 how willing you are

00:29:26.320 to bend over backwards

00:29:27.420 whenever you have

00:29:28.540 the opportunity

00:29:29.260 to show

00:29:30.100 that you're,

00:29:31.240 you're ultimately loyal

00:29:32.560 or you're ultimately

00:29:33.320 capitulating

00:29:34.040 to those in power,

00:29:36.200 you're,

00:29:36.740 you're really revealing

00:29:37.640 to yourself

00:29:38.540 that this,

00:29:39.520 this is,

00:29:40.220 you know,

00:29:40.680 this is my main interest

00:29:42.560 that not the actual

00:29:43.860 worrying about like

00:29:45.720 how I should interact

00:29:47.500 with the morality

00:29:48.220 of the situation.

00:29:49.200 Your moral response

00:29:50.540 is something,

00:29:51.080 like you said,

00:29:51.660 often in a situation

00:29:53.220 it's going to be,

00:29:53.840 need to be something

00:29:54.780 that you are doing

00:29:56.160 in private

00:29:56.740 or it's something

00:29:57.520 that is held tight

00:29:58.600 inside a community

00:29:59.840 or perhaps it is

00:30:01.380 simply something

00:30:01.960 like stepping away,

00:30:03.620 you know,

00:30:03.780 removing a public support

00:30:05.040 for someone

00:30:05.800 who is,

00:30:06.560 who is behaving badly

00:30:08.600 or is beyond the pale.

00:30:10.020 That is not the same

00:30:11.660 as going to the other side

00:30:13.380 and saying,

00:30:13.840 I would like to show you

00:30:15.360 that I am worthy

00:30:16.500 of your respect

00:30:17.680 by publicly going

00:30:19.020 out of my way

00:30:20.240 to destroy this person.

00:30:22.100 These are very different behaviors

00:30:23.860 and what one is

00:30:25.300 the way that you should

00:30:26.240 actually address

00:30:27.220 something in a moral situation

00:30:28.900 and one is

00:30:29.860 the mask I'm putting on

00:30:31.800 or the demonstration

00:30:32.560 I'm putting on

00:30:33.680 for public credibility.

00:30:35.320 What's better than

00:30:37.500 a well-marbled ribeye

00:30:38.660 sizzling on the barbecue?

00:30:40.300 A well-marbled ribeye

00:30:41.640 sizzling on the barbecue

00:30:42.700 that was carefully selected

00:30:44.080 by an Instacart shopper

00:30:45.460 and delivered to your door.

00:30:47.040 A well-marbled ribeye

00:30:48.360 you ordered

00:30:48.880 without even leaving

00:30:50.000 the kiddie pool.

00:30:51.520 Whatever groceries

00:30:52.380 your summer calls for,

00:30:53.860 Instacart has you covered.

00:30:55.660 Download the Instacart app

00:30:56.900 and enjoy $0 delivery fees

00:30:58.960 on your first three orders.

00:31:00.540 Service fees,

00:31:01.200 exclusions,

00:31:01.700 and terms apply.

00:31:03.380 Instacart,

00:31:04.160 groceries that over-deliver.

00:31:06.400 Well, definitely.

00:31:07.580 And this is

00:31:08.000 the deepest irony in this

00:31:09.440 is that Dreher himself

00:31:10.760 gets this, right?

00:31:12.300 In that book,

00:31:13.200 I mentioned Benedict Option,

00:31:14.440 which is very influential on me.

00:31:16.160 He talks about that, right?

00:31:17.600 That when you have a community,

00:31:18.800 when you deliberately

00:31:19.520 create a community,

00:31:20.860 it has to be policed

00:31:22.340 from the inside, right?

00:31:24.460 Very successful parallel societies

00:31:26.420 like the Amish

00:31:27.240 and the ultra-Orthodox,

00:31:28.400 they've done this well.

00:31:30.140 And so if we look at,

00:31:31.020 like, okay,

00:31:31.580 let's say I believe

00:31:34.040 that premise, right?

00:31:35.440 That Christian conservatives

00:31:36.800 are no longer

00:31:37.980 a majority group

00:31:38.940 and they need to act

00:31:40.540 like a minority group,

00:31:42.360 like specifically

00:31:42.800 a parallel minority group.

00:31:44.380 Well, let's look at

00:31:45.360 successful parallel

00:31:46.380 minority groups,

00:31:47.840 complicated societies

00:31:48.980 that exist

00:31:49.780 kind of completely apart

00:31:51.440 from the broader

00:31:53.060 American one.

00:31:54.380 Well, what do they do?

00:31:55.400 They don't do this, right?

00:31:56.860 You don't have Amish people

00:31:57.940 writing up,

00:31:58.760 you know,

00:31:59.100 like self-flagellating

00:32:01.220 1400 word posts

00:32:02.820 on Substack,

00:32:03.880 realize the Amish part

00:32:04.860 might kind of contract,

00:32:06.300 but you understand my point.

00:32:08.900 And what's especially galling

00:32:10.380 about this

00:32:10.840 is that this is a pattern

00:32:11.860 of behavior, right?

00:32:12.900 I won't get into

00:32:13.780 the Thomas Accord affair,

00:32:15.100 but essentially

00:32:15.580 what Dreher did

00:32:16.540 is took a very,

00:32:18.380 very small instance

00:32:19.920 of,

00:32:21.000 should we say,

00:32:21.460 unbecoming behavior,

00:32:22.960 right?

00:32:23.120 The headmaster

00:32:26.060 of a small Christian school

00:32:27.280 Dreher was connected to

00:32:28.320 had an Anon account.

00:32:30.620 He was connected

00:32:31.120 to Stephen Wolf

00:32:32.040 of Christian nationalist fame.

00:32:33.860 Some Antifa account

00:32:34.840 found it,

00:32:36.040 doxed him,

00:32:36.860 and he was going

00:32:37.960 to get let go

00:32:38.580 from his job

00:32:39.180 for saying edgy things

00:32:40.100 on the internet, right?

00:32:41.600 Probably,

00:32:42.440 there's a good reason

00:32:44.300 to say that the school

00:32:45.000 had grounds

00:32:45.600 to let him go

00:32:46.220 because he lied about it,

00:32:47.640 so fair enough, right?

00:32:48.980 But if that's just that,

00:32:51.320 that is essentially

00:32:52.280 a personnel matter

00:32:53.260 at a hundred person school,

00:32:55.500 no one hears about it.

00:32:56.800 But what Dreher does

00:32:57.720 is the same mechanism,

00:32:59.040 right,

00:32:59.300 to get that prestige

00:33:00.680 as one of the good conservatives,

00:33:02.620 right,

00:33:02.800 I'm not like those guys,

00:33:04.780 is he blows it up

00:33:05.880 and now it's a story

00:33:07.180 in the New York Times,

00:33:08.560 which that's a whole

00:33:09.560 extra magnitude.

00:33:11.020 You have taken

00:33:11.500 this small problem

00:33:12.540 and blown it up

00:33:13.700 to a degree

00:33:14.100 that is in the biggest

00:33:14.820 the paper of record,

00:33:16.260 quote unquote,

00:33:17.060 and it ends up

00:33:17.760 nuking this entire school.

00:33:19.640 This man is now

00:33:20.400 literally unemployable,

00:33:21.740 cannot find a job

00:33:22.660 over the entire continental U.S.,

00:33:24.700 he's driven all over the place.

00:33:25.940 And multiple people

00:33:27.480 lose their jobs

00:33:28.300 and now this whole institution

00:33:29.600 is in flames.

00:33:30.460 It is probably going to fault.

00:33:32.000 People have nothing,

00:33:33.040 nothing to do

00:33:33.960 with the initial

00:33:34.800 quote unquote crime,

00:33:36.580 you know,

00:33:37.320 that was the point

00:33:39.320 of the witch hunt

00:33:39.960 are now being blown,

00:33:41.520 blown up by this, right?

00:33:43.040 A hundred percent.

00:33:44.020 And why was that done?

00:33:45.800 Well,

00:33:46.040 to establish

00:33:47.660 that Rod Dreher

00:33:48.640 is quote unquote

00:33:50.540 principled,

00:33:51.640 which means

00:33:52.320 he will sacrifice

00:33:54.580 his people

00:33:55.640 into the maw

00:33:56.880 of the beast

00:33:57.520 essentially

00:33:58.360 to gather

00:33:59.320 extra prestige,

00:34:01.420 you know,

00:34:01.600 to get more clicks,

00:34:02.880 to get more eyes,

00:34:03.780 because,

00:34:04.900 to be honest,

00:34:06.020 his people,

00:34:06.980 quote unquote,

00:34:07.980 and the people

00:34:08.340 he wrote his books about,

00:34:10.000 they're not his paymasters,

00:34:12.380 right?

00:34:12.580 They don't give,

00:34:13.240 they can't give him

00:34:14.320 the currency he wants.

00:34:16.420 And I think that what we see

00:34:17.280 across the board

00:34:18.060 looking at,

00:34:18.980 you know,

00:34:19.580 whether you want to call

00:34:20.120 these people rhinos,

00:34:21.580 whether you want to call

00:34:22.180 them swamp creatures,

00:34:23.480 good conservatives,

00:34:24.420 I use the term

00:34:25.280 house conservatives,

00:34:26.800 right?

00:34:26.980 To kind of,

00:34:27.400 you know,

00:34:28.500 mimic Malcolm X there,

00:34:29.620 right?

00:34:30.280 Is that essentially

00:34:31.200 it's a,

00:34:31.940 what we call elsewhere

00:34:32.800 kind of a principal agent problem.

00:34:34.780 You know,

00:34:35.260 that your representatives,

00:34:36.720 right?

00:34:36.840 The people that you give money to,

00:34:39.840 well,

00:34:40.700 they don't have the same goals

00:34:41.580 you do,

00:34:42.540 you know,

00:34:42.840 you may be thinking,

00:34:44.220 Aaron,

00:34:44.600 you know,

00:34:44.900 like,

00:34:45.200 oh,

00:34:45.660 I am conservative.

00:34:47.400 I give my money to conservatives.

00:34:49.240 Therefore they will act out that,

00:34:51.800 you know,

00:34:51.960 they will essentially respect

00:34:53.480 my end of the deal.

00:34:55.840 We don't see,

00:34:56.680 we see that in many cases

00:34:58.000 breaking down.

00:34:59.400 And I guess that in all of this,

00:35:01.160 kind of,

00:35:01.560 if you could drill it down

00:35:02.580 to my thesis statement,

00:35:03.420 it's essentially that

00:35:04.340 find better patrons,

00:35:06.340 you know,

00:35:06.960 because you're getting a raw,

00:35:08.560 the raw end of the deal.

00:35:09.900 Yeah.

00:35:10.300 And it's really important

00:35:11.620 because when you are setting up

00:35:13.760 these societies,

00:35:15.080 like,

00:35:15.380 okay,

00:35:15.600 we have a small Christian school,

00:35:17.100 right?

00:35:17.400 This is the alternative institution.

00:35:20.440 This is the thing

00:35:22.320 that we're always telling people

00:35:23.500 they should do.

00:35:24.620 Separate yourself

00:35:25.400 from the society,

00:35:26.900 put yourself in a situation

00:35:28.240 where you're delivering

00:35:29.480 an alternative education,

00:35:30.980 where there's an alternative

00:35:32.360 set of interests,

00:35:34.780 an alternative set of standards,

00:35:36.340 an alternative morality

00:35:37.560 that is being reforced,

00:35:39.140 that is removing you

00:35:40.340 from the system.

00:35:41.740 That's what you want.

00:35:42.680 That's what you want

00:35:43.340 from these communities.

00:35:45.020 And when organizations

00:35:46.740 like that know

00:35:48.160 that somewhere

00:35:49.420 inside the organization,

00:35:50.840 there's like a sleeper cell

00:35:52.520 of people

00:35:53.160 who ultimately

00:35:54.180 are seeking

00:35:55.060 the approval

00:35:56.280 of someone

00:35:56.720 outside of that organization,

00:35:58.540 they will act

00:36:00.240 in accord,

00:36:01.460 you know,

00:36:01.760 with that

00:36:02.700 instead of

00:36:03.280 with the interests

00:36:03.680 of the organization.

00:36:04.200 That means that people

00:36:05.440 are always on their toes.

00:36:07.500 They can't really

00:36:08.500 be on their own.

00:36:09.780 They can't really

00:36:10.460 have an alternative.

00:36:11.760 They can't really

00:36:12.180 have different morals,

00:36:13.140 different values,

00:36:14.060 a different culture

00:36:14.860 because ultimately

00:36:16.100 they constantly

00:36:16.820 have to be worried

00:36:17.620 about the fact

00:36:18.280 that someone

00:36:18.800 inside the organization

00:36:19.920 is really looking

00:36:21.360 to better themselves

00:36:23.200 with their enemies.

00:36:25.080 And so they're

00:36:25.700 constantly looking

00:36:26.740 over their shoulder.

00:36:27.560 They're constantly

00:36:27.960 making decisions

00:36:28.720 that are influenced

00:36:29.640 by those people.

00:36:31.480 And so this

00:36:32.840 practice of going around

00:36:34.720 and blowing up

00:36:35.960 people,

00:36:36.620 especially inside

00:36:37.580 these small

00:36:38.160 alternative organizations

00:36:39.500 for your own

00:36:40.580 aggrandizement,

00:36:41.340 it doesn't just hurt

00:36:42.460 those individual people,

00:36:44.500 though that itself

00:36:45.420 is a tragedy.

00:36:46.200 It also makes

00:36:47.480 parallel institutions

00:36:48.900 almost impossible

00:36:50.220 because those people

00:36:51.440 know that they

00:36:52.360 cannot operate

00:36:53.360 because you are

00:36:54.160 specifically drawing

00:36:55.420 scrutiny on top

00:36:57.320 of those organizations

00:36:58.280 for the amusement

00:36:59.800 and aggrandizement

00:37:01.080 for the amusement

00:37:02.620 of your enemies

00:37:04.360 and your own

00:37:05.000 aggrandizement.

00:37:06.620 And that means

00:37:07.180 that they just

00:37:07.720 have no option

00:37:08.680 to actually operate

00:37:09.740 on their own.

00:37:11.500 Well, definitely.

00:37:12.160 And that's sort of

00:37:12.800 one of the secret

00:37:14.240 power mechanisms

00:37:15.260 the regime has,

00:37:16.960 right,

00:37:17.140 is through civil rights

00:37:18.080 law,

00:37:18.440 through even just

00:37:19.340 kind of the court

00:37:19.920 of public opinion

00:37:20.900 for whatever that's worth,

00:37:22.180 they've essentially

00:37:22.760 created a nuclear option

00:37:25.120 and given everyone

00:37:26.240 a button, right?

00:37:27.540 And if you are

00:37:28.200 in an organization,

00:37:29.120 particularly an organization

00:37:30.840 that the regime

00:37:31.740 does not like,

00:37:33.100 all you have to do

00:37:34.520 is essentially

00:37:35.980 find a reporter,

00:37:39.240 you know,

00:37:39.700 make something up

00:37:40.660 and the whole,

00:37:41.520 essentially the wrath

00:37:42.360 of God will come down

00:37:43.460 and smite that person.

00:37:44.920 You saw this

00:37:45.840 with the UVA fraternity

00:37:49.720 situation, right?

00:37:50.960 Where essentially,

00:37:51.800 let's be honest,

00:37:52.620 fraternities are not

00:37:53.420 explicitly political,

00:37:54.860 but they're an

00:37:55.740 all-male organization

00:37:56.720 and the regime

00:37:58.000 doesn't like that,

00:37:58.700 right?

00:37:59.040 It's a fraternal society.

00:38:01.160 I was not in Greek life,

00:38:02.380 a lot of friends who were,

00:38:03.320 so I'm not particularly

00:38:04.120 biased on this point,

00:38:05.160 but they find someone

00:38:06.340 who,

00:38:07.460 and this is an elite

00:38:08.440 Southern school,

00:38:10.160 all-male organization

00:38:11.200 that's kind of

00:38:12.100 three ticks against it

00:38:13.020 as far as the regime

00:38:13.680 is concerned.

00:38:14.520 They get this

00:38:15.240 completely made-up story,

00:38:16.600 turns out to be

00:38:17.080 completely false,

00:38:18.480 and Rolling Stone

00:38:19.660 publishes a massive

00:38:20.760 expose about,

00:38:21.940 you know,

00:38:22.120 sexual assault

00:38:22.800 that happens

00:38:23.260 at this fraternity.

00:38:24.520 These kids have

00:38:25.080 their lives ruined,

00:38:25.920 and then we find out

00:38:27.300 three to five years later

00:38:28.160 that it was made-up

00:38:29.080 whole cloth,

00:38:29.840 right?

00:38:30.240 And so that's an example

00:38:31.120 of that nuclear option,

00:38:33.100 you know,

00:38:33.260 that if you can find

00:38:34.160 a sympathetic ear

00:38:35.380 to listen to,

00:38:36.720 you know,

00:38:36.860 essentially it's a story

00:38:37.960 people want to believe,

00:38:39.880 right?

00:38:40.220 Oh,

00:38:40.580 those are,

00:38:41.620 according to the regime,

00:38:42.340 those are bad people.

00:38:43.660 So,

00:38:44.240 this looks like

00:38:45.080 a half-decent story,

00:38:46.840 completely obliterate this.

00:38:48.820 Again,

00:38:49.100 another example

00:38:49.720 is the Kavanaugh situation,

00:38:51.460 right?

00:38:51.640 That all of a sudden

00:38:52.180 you have,

00:38:53.740 shall we say,

00:38:54.720 less than,

00:38:55.820 less than convincing stories

00:38:57.740 popping out of the woodwork,

00:38:59.220 but they're lend credence

00:39:01.740 because it is convenient

00:39:03.180 for power

00:39:04.060 to lend credence

00:39:05.660 to these stories.

00:39:06.940 This is another one,

00:39:07.940 right,

00:39:08.120 that would happen

00:39:08.540 with Accord

00:39:09.020 where it's like,

00:39:10.140 well,

00:39:10.400 to be honest,

00:39:10.940 it doesn't really matter.

00:39:11.920 Like,

00:39:12.040 this is not a big deal.

00:39:13.220 You know,

00:39:13.580 some guy said something

00:39:14.460 inappropriate on social media.

00:39:15.740 It happens all the time,

00:39:16.620 but because

00:39:18.280 small classical Christian schools

00:39:20.700 are coded as enemies,

00:39:22.640 right?

00:39:23.920 Well,

00:39:24.180 all of a sudden,

00:39:24.700 this is a New York Times story.

00:39:26.220 This really matters.

00:39:27.500 I'll have you know

00:39:28.040 there are dangerous

00:39:28.660 Christian nationalists

00:39:29.820 who are just one day away

00:39:30.980 from taking over in America

00:39:32.240 at schools like this.

00:39:33.760 And so,

00:39:34.300 again,

00:39:34.980 right,

00:39:35.480 it's another way

00:39:36.300 in which this,

00:39:37.080 this sort of

00:39:38.340 can catapult someone

00:39:39.940 to kind of stratosphere,

00:39:41.320 like,

00:39:41.900 immense fame.

00:39:43.360 You know,

00:39:43.500 like the,

00:39:43.980 I think it was,

00:39:44.380 was her name Mattress Girl

00:39:45.380 at UVA

00:39:45.880 or was that another one?

00:39:46.980 I'm trying to remember

00:39:47.760 when that,

00:39:48.460 yeah,

00:39:48.660 I don't know if that was UVA.

00:39:49.720 It might have been.

00:39:50.240 The point is,

00:39:51.380 right,

00:39:51.600 you can catapult your career,

00:39:53.880 you know,

00:39:54.040 make yourself well known.

00:39:56.060 And I hate to say it,

00:39:57.380 this is how Dreher got famous.

00:39:59.340 He got famous

00:40:00.320 by writing about

00:40:01.880 sex scandals

00:40:03.440 in the Catholic Church,

00:40:04.200 which admittedly

00:40:04.960 were a problem.

00:40:06.960 But at the same time,

00:40:08.340 you start to look back

00:40:09.420 given what we know now.

00:40:10.880 And even if everything

00:40:11.920 he did then was perfect,

00:40:13.820 you know,

00:40:13.960 it's absolutely perfect.

00:40:16.300 Nonetheless,

00:40:17.260 right,

00:40:18.040 it is a way

00:40:18.600 that a lot of people

00:40:19.460 make themselves

00:40:20.520 very famous

00:40:21.240 at the expense

00:40:22.320 of enemies

00:40:24.280 of the regime.

00:40:26.000 And you have to,

00:40:27.320 like,

00:40:27.680 for,

00:40:29.240 for the right

00:40:31.260 to finally break free

00:40:32.700 of this dynamic,

00:40:33.460 they need alternatives.

00:40:35.560 They need situations

00:40:36.980 where they can be separate,

00:40:38.740 they can be apart,

00:40:39.540 and like you said,

00:40:40.300 they can have communities

00:40:41.700 that can guard themselves

00:40:43.720 against this,

00:40:44.300 which,

00:40:44.600 of course,

00:40:44.920 again,

00:40:45.160 is the irony

00:40:45.700 because Dreher knows this.

00:40:47.380 He's written about this.

00:40:48.860 But we,

00:40:50.320 you know,

00:40:50.540 whether he understands

00:40:51.860 the implications

00:40:52.780 of his own writing

00:40:54.060 or not,

00:40:54.860 we have to understand this,

00:40:56.600 that the people

00:40:57.460 in power

00:40:58.640 are more dangerous

00:41:00.320 than bad people

00:41:01.780 to our right,

00:41:03.000 which does not mean

00:41:03.760 that there aren't bad people.

00:41:05.160 That doesn't mean

00:41:05.720 that everyone on the right

00:41:06.800 is perfect.

00:41:07.320 It doesn't mean

00:41:07.640 everyone on the right

00:41:08.300 is doing the right thing.

00:41:09.480 It doesn't mean

00:41:10.020 that no one on the right

00:41:11.000 is guilty

00:41:11.540 and no one on the right

00:41:12.860 is doing something

00:41:15.760 that should be reproached.

00:41:18.720 However,

00:41:19.580 it means that

00:41:21.040 we have to understand

00:41:21.840 that the people

00:41:22.300 in power to the left,

00:41:23.440 the people who are

00:41:24.080 fighting for child castration

00:41:26.400 and actually hold

00:41:27.740 power inside the government

00:41:30.460 and inside corporations,

00:41:31.940 inside the military

00:41:33.540 and all these

00:41:34.080 incredibly powerful organizations,

00:41:36.000 they are just

00:41:36.560 way more dangerous

00:41:38.140 than any individual

00:41:40.540 who happens

00:41:41.460 to hold bad beliefs,

00:41:42.880 which doesn't mean

00:41:43.540 those beliefs are okay

00:41:44.920 or those actions are okay,

00:41:46.660 but we have to understand

00:41:48.300 where the priorities are

00:41:49.620 and we have to understand

00:41:50.320 the cost

00:41:51.060 of expending our energy

00:41:53.080 going after people

00:41:54.360 who are of no threat

00:41:56.320 in general

00:41:57.700 to society

00:41:58.860 as opposed

00:41:59.520 to people

00:42:00.420 who wield

00:42:01.200 all of the power

00:42:02.060 in society

00:42:02.520 and are driving

00:42:03.560 the cultural incentive system

00:42:04.920 that is putting us

00:42:06.240 in this position

00:42:07.160 in the first place.

00:42:08.740 Well,

00:42:08.820 I think that if we can

00:42:09.780 distill this down

00:42:11.020 to two bullet points,

00:42:12.680 right?

00:42:12.940 Like,

00:42:13.220 why did I come

00:42:14.020 on the show?

00:42:14.660 That's point number one.

00:42:16.180 And point number two

00:42:17.100 is don't let your definition

00:42:20.360 of kind of like

00:42:21.940 what is good

00:42:23.180 and high status

00:42:23.880 come from your enemies

00:42:24.860 because if they control

00:42:26.480 what you think

00:42:27.560 is high status,

00:42:29.560 you know,

00:42:29.860 good behavior,

00:42:31.000 you're completely done.

00:42:32.940 So,

00:42:34.120 you see this

00:42:35.120 with any number

00:42:35.640 of issues,

00:42:36.360 right?

00:42:36.620 That once you have

00:42:37.840 successfully coded

00:42:39.060 something like,

00:42:40.560 for instance,

00:42:40.940 getting married

00:42:41.460 and having kids young

00:42:42.480 as backwards

00:42:43.540 and low class,

00:42:44.720 it disappears

00:42:46.260 very,

00:42:47.000 very quickly.

00:42:47.460 I'm talking on

00:42:48.220 kind of a broad scale.

00:42:50.540 And so in that,

00:42:51.520 right,

00:42:51.860 you have to wonder of,

00:42:53.460 well,

00:42:53.540 okay,

00:42:53.840 do the people

00:42:54.400 who kind of

00:42:55.900 mimic

00:42:56.380 the behavior

00:42:57.880 of high status,

00:42:59.200 you know,

00:42:59.920 progressives

00:43:00.540 in every way

00:43:01.700 except for

00:43:02.680 kind of

00:43:03.280 N number

00:43:03.920 of policy

00:43:05.240 positions,

00:43:05.940 right?

00:43:06.260 Which way

00:43:06.820 are they going?

00:43:08.440 And that's

00:43:08.980 a pretty easy answer.

00:43:10.300 And so when we talk

00:43:11.080 about building

00:43:11.640 those parallel

00:43:12.760 institutions,

00:43:13.320 we also have

00:43:14.100 to understand

00:43:14.620 that if you're

00:43:15.200 going to do that,

00:43:16.620 you will never

00:43:17.240 be seen

00:43:17.940 in a broader

00:43:18.940 context as hip

00:43:19.800 and cool.

00:43:20.560 Like,

00:43:20.680 you will have

00:43:21.180 to fully

00:43:22.500 commit to the fact

00:43:23.480 that you are

00:43:23.860 now low status.

00:43:25.420 If you're

00:43:25.960 one of the purebloods,

00:43:27.120 right,

00:43:27.320 the people who got

00:43:28.080 through COVID,

00:43:28.720 you're familiar

00:43:29.180 with this,

00:43:30.140 right?

00:43:30.300 That essentially

00:43:30.720 you had to get

00:43:31.440 to a point

00:43:31.920 where you're like,

00:43:32.500 okay,

00:43:34.140 guess what?

00:43:34.680 I'm going to be

00:43:35.120 treated like a

00:43:36.160 criminal.

00:43:36.900 You know,

00:43:37.020 I'm going to have

00:43:37.560 to,

00:43:37.960 you know,

00:43:38.300 do certain things,

00:43:39.220 go certain places,

00:43:40.000 essentially have a

00:43:40.520 parole officer if you

00:43:41.640 were at certain

00:43:42.120 universities,

00:43:42.760 like I was,

00:43:43.940 and that's

00:43:44.960 embarrassing,

00:43:45.860 right?

00:43:47.440 But if you're

00:43:48.120 going to be a

00:43:48.560 dissident,

00:43:49.060 and this is the

00:43:49.600 whole point of

00:43:50.120 Dreher's third

00:43:51.060 book,

00:43:51.640 if you're going

00:43:52.200 to be a

00:43:52.560 dissident,

00:43:52.980 you have to do

00:43:53.400 dissident things.

00:43:54.620 And part of that

00:43:55.300 is you're going

00:43:56.100 to be seen as

00:43:56.920 uncool,

00:43:57.740 you're going to

00:43:58.160 be seen as

00:43:58.720 low status,

00:43:59.580 and you're going

00:44:00.380 to face essentially

00:44:01.260 social consequences

00:44:02.340 and that's

00:44:04.500 sort of the

00:44:04.880 price of entry,

00:44:06.260 I guess.

00:44:07.300 Yeah,

00:44:07.440 Darren Beattie

00:44:07.840 calls this the

00:44:08.440 pain box,

00:44:09.460 which I think

00:44:10.520 is,

00:44:10.880 he says,

00:44:11.720 if nobody,

00:44:12.620 if the guy is

00:44:13.700 not in the

00:44:13.980 pain box,

00:44:14.560 then you

00:44:14.940 shouldn't trust

00:44:15.500 him.

00:44:16.140 If,

00:44:16.720 you know,

00:44:17.100 if someone is

00:44:18.120 just riding

00:44:18.920 high and,

00:44:19.980 you know,

00:44:21.080 receiving all the

00:44:21.700 pats on the

00:44:22.140 head from all

00:44:22.780 the major

00:44:23.140 outlets and,

00:44:23.900 you know,

00:44:24.340 is never paying

00:44:25.040 a cost and

00:44:25.900 is never being

00:44:26.900 signaled as low

00:44:28.280 status and all

00:44:28.940 these things,

00:44:29.740 then this person

00:44:30.900 is not in the

00:44:31.660 pain box.

00:44:32.060 They're not

00:44:32.420 somebody who's

00:44:32.900 actually an

00:44:33.600 enemy regime,

00:44:34.380 which doesn't

00:44:34.740 mean that,

00:44:35.180 you know,

00:44:35.560 people can't

00:44:36.060 have success

00:44:36.720 or it doesn't

00:44:37.520 mean that people

00:44:38.000 don't gain

00:44:38.400 popularity or

00:44:39.440 status because

00:44:41.260 eventually you do

00:44:41.900 want people to

00:44:42.540 have that through

00:44:43.120 the alternative

00:44:43.680 system.

00:44:45.600 But if the

00:44:46.040 mainstream is

00:44:47.140 patting these

00:44:47.580 people on the

00:44:48.000 head or if

00:44:48.380 they're making

00:44:49.100 moves that

00:44:49.680 constantly put

00:44:50.300 themselves in

00:44:51.280 that situation,

00:44:52.040 they're not

00:44:52.820 being put in

00:44:53.520 the box,

00:44:54.180 you know,

00:44:54.500 then that means

00:44:55.260 that they're not

00:44:56.100 really a threat.

00:44:56.840 They're part of

00:44:57.820 the regime.

00:44:58.340 They're not

00:44:58.580 somebody who's

00:44:58.940 actually standing

00:44:59.500 against it.

00:45:00.100 Well,

00:45:01.420 definitely.

00:45:02.780 And it is sort

00:45:03.880 of one of those

00:45:04.460 things where it's

00:45:05.180 like there are

00:45:06.260 people who I

00:45:07.920 are to my right

00:45:09.660 and who I don't

00:45:10.740 like, you know,

00:45:11.940 people who I find,

00:45:13.320 you know,

00:45:13.700 irritating or

00:45:14.700 unproductive,

00:45:15.360 but I've seen

00:45:17.580 them take hits,

00:45:19.000 right?

00:45:19.200 Seen them take

00:45:19.840 serious hits.

00:45:21.100 And when you

00:45:21.800 see someone have

00:45:23.340 a controversial

00:45:24.420 idea and really

00:45:26.160 suffer for it,

00:45:27.040 right?

00:45:27.260 Like lose a job,

00:45:28.860 you know,

00:45:29.180 lose money,

00:45:30.080 lose social

00:45:30.540 connections,

00:45:31.020 and they keep

00:45:31.660 going, it's a

00:45:33.100 pretty good

00:45:33.400 indication that

00:45:33.980 they actually

00:45:34.300 believe what

00:45:34.780 they're saying.

00:45:35.940 And I think

00:45:36.340 that one of the

00:45:36.940 things that we've

00:45:37.860 sort of realized

00:45:41.540 about the kind

00:45:43.680 of current civic

00:45:44.460 religion,

00:45:45.380 right?

00:45:46.000 Progressivism 2.0

00:45:47.060 is it essentially

00:45:48.340 there are very few

00:45:49.520 true believers,

00:45:50.840 right?

00:45:51.040 There are very few

00:45:51.740 people who if you

00:45:52.460 really like held

00:45:53.300 their feet to the

00:45:53.920 fire were like,

00:45:54.980 I would suffer

00:45:55.540 for this.

00:45:56.380 You know,

00:45:56.540 I would lose

00:45:57.440 status.

00:45:58.240 I think it's a lot

00:45:59.040 of people who are

00:45:59.640 essentially are getting

00:46:00.880 free stuff,

00:46:01.960 you know?

00:46:03.180 And that's

00:46:04.820 something you have

00:46:05.300 to admire,

00:46:05.880 you know,

00:46:06.060 that someone is

00:46:06.700 basically willing to

00:46:07.660 kind of go to the

00:46:08.240 mat for what they

00:46:08.820 believe, go to the

00:46:09.480 pain box.

00:46:10.400 And so you'd look at

00:46:11.080 that and you're

00:46:11.420 like, you know

00:46:11.720 what?

00:46:12.620 I don't agree with

00:46:13.320 him on XYZ.

00:46:14.600 You know,

00:46:14.800 he's a Greek

00:46:16.040 statue poster on

00:46:17.020 Twitter.

00:46:18.040 I'm a Christian.

00:46:19.800 Let's just not

00:46:20.580 start this.

00:46:21.480 You know,

00:46:21.640 we're fighting

00:46:22.320 Leviathan.

00:46:24.020 And, you know,

00:46:25.000 maybe the guy who

00:46:26.880 thinks that like

00:46:27.660 actually being a

00:46:29.720 gay Nietzschean,

00:46:30.540 you know,

00:46:31.620 physique poster is

00:46:32.520 the true way to

00:46:33.080 get this.

00:46:33.820 Maybe we're not

00:46:34.860 in complete

00:46:35.480 agreement.

00:46:36.760 But to kind of

00:46:38.540 paraphrase Sam Hyde,

00:46:40.200 he doesn't think

00:46:41.180 it, he doesn't

00:46:41.700 want my kids dead.

00:46:43.000 You know,

00:46:43.180 he doesn't want

00:46:43.540 to castrate my

00:46:44.280 kids and he

00:46:44.880 doesn't think it's

00:46:45.380 funny.

00:46:46.140 So that's kind of

00:46:47.680 a basic friend

00:46:48.800 enemy distinction.

00:46:51.240 Absolutely.

00:46:51.820 All right, guys.

00:46:52.420 Well, we're going to

00:46:52.980 pivot over to some

00:46:54.240 questions we've got

00:46:55.020 stacking up.

00:46:55.640 But before we do

00:46:56.360 that, Mr.

00:46:56.920 Burden, where can

00:46:57.640 everyone find your

00:46:58.660 great work?

00:46:59.840 Yeah, definitely.

00:47:00.420 Thank you for having

00:47:00.880 me on.

00:47:01.280 So the Jay Burden

00:47:01.900 show is a,

00:47:03.040 it's an interview

00:47:03.440 show, normally

00:47:04.620 about an hour long.

00:47:06.340 I've had R on

00:47:07.160 on any number of

00:47:07.900 people you may

00:47:08.440 be familiar with.

00:47:09.360 You can find

00:47:09.900 that show on

00:47:10.520 Apple, YouTube,

00:47:11.500 Spotify, anywhere

00:47:12.260 you listen to

00:47:12.760 podcasts.

00:47:13.920 And again,

00:47:14.660 RN, thank you

00:47:15.160 so much for

00:47:15.520 having me on.

00:47:16.800 Absolutely, man.

00:47:17.520 All right, let's

00:47:17.980 go ahead and

00:47:18.980 answer some

00:47:19.540 questions.

00:47:21.020 So Deuce Boogaloo

00:47:22.200 for $20.

00:47:23.200 On Friday, I saw

00:47:23.920 Shapiro react to a

00:47:24.660 clip of Tucker and

00:47:25.640 Dave Smith be

00:47:27.400 befuddled by their

00:47:29.080 shared disdain of

00:47:29.860 Bill Buckley.

00:47:30.540 Orin, could you

00:47:31.060 please make a video

00:47:31.800 explaining why the

00:47:32.700 dissident right

00:47:33.240 disapproves of

00:47:34.600 Buckley and his

00:47:36.000 legacy?

00:47:36.400 Yeah, I commented

00:47:37.580 on this.

00:47:38.260 I'm actually going

00:47:38.740 to have Dave

00:47:39.920 Smith on tomorrow

00:47:40.820 so I can do you

00:47:42.480 one better.

00:47:43.000 I could just have

00:47:43.500 a conversation

00:47:44.240 about this with

00:47:46.800 the guy responsible

00:47:47.820 for this.

00:47:49.120 To be clear,

00:47:50.200 like Bill Buckley,

00:47:51.600 it's not like

00:47:51.960 everything Bill

00:47:52.540 Buckley ever said

00:47:53.440 is wrong or,

00:47:54.380 you know, he's

00:47:54.820 like the guy all

00:47:56.720 by himself that,

00:47:58.060 you know, that

00:47:58.580 drove everything

00:47:59.460 that we've seen,

00:48:00.280 all the failures.

00:48:01.400 Let's not say

00:48:02.140 that.

00:48:02.380 Bill Buckley,

00:48:03.040 you know, there's

00:48:04.080 work he did that

00:48:04.660 was good.

00:48:05.220 There are opinions

00:48:05.640 he had that were

00:48:06.260 correct.

00:48:07.200 There are things

00:48:08.060 to say in his

00:48:09.640 defense.

00:48:10.100 However, the main

00:48:11.140 thing about Buckley

00:48:11.940 and many people

00:48:12.860 who are held in

00:48:14.600 his position inside

00:48:15.460 the conservative

00:48:15.940 movement is you

00:48:16.880 can see over and

00:48:17.780 over again the

00:48:18.480 times that he

00:48:19.120 canceled people to

00:48:20.380 his right, which

00:48:21.380 is a big part of

00:48:21.900 the conversation

00:48:22.420 that we're having

00:48:22.980 today.

00:48:23.800 Buckley ran a lot

00:48:24.340 of people out of

00:48:24.960 the conservative

00:48:25.540 movement that

00:48:26.860 disagreed with

00:48:27.600 him.

00:48:28.160 He ultimately

00:48:28.640 helped to cancel

00:48:29.600 people like Pat

00:48:30.700 Buchanan for

00:48:31.780 having anti-immigration

00:48:33.440 stances.

00:48:35.440 He ultimately

00:48:37.500 canceled a lot

00:48:38.260 of people who

00:48:38.800 warned about the

00:48:39.960 excesses that

00:48:40.660 would follow the

00:48:41.720 Civil Rights Act

00:48:42.420 and civil rights

00:48:43.920 law.

00:48:44.920 And so while

00:48:45.800 Bill Buckley is

00:48:46.760 certainly better

00:48:47.580 than the vast

00:48:48.820 majority of

00:48:49.580 obviously leftists

00:48:50.840 and maybe even a

00:48:51.700 number of people

00:48:52.420 who have called

00:48:53.260 themselves conservative

00:48:54.340 throughout time,

00:48:55.520 holding him up as

00:48:56.400 some monolithic

00:48:57.200 leader of the

00:48:58.320 right who stood

00:49:00.040 against everything

00:49:01.020 that kind of

00:49:02.180 came, I think

00:49:03.400 that's the

00:49:03.880 misunderstanding of

00:49:04.980 history.

00:49:05.540 I think that

00:49:06.660 many of the

00:49:07.180 moves that

00:49:07.480 Buckley made

00:49:07.960 pushed us in

00:49:09.140 directions that

00:49:09.920 we are now

00:49:10.540 because they

00:49:11.000 silenced voices

00:49:11.760 that brought

00:49:12.320 very important

00:49:13.160 positions to

00:49:15.280 the foreground

00:49:16.140 and those things

00:49:17.220 stayed in the

00:49:17.860 wilderness for a

00:49:18.460 very long time

00:49:19.140 until people like

00:49:19.920 Trump and many

00:49:21.120 on the distant

00:49:21.560 right were able

00:49:22.100 to bring them

00:49:22.600 back to the

00:49:23.320 fore.

00:49:23.740 And so it's

00:49:24.480 not a wholesale

00:49:25.200 condemnation of

00:49:26.200 Buckley in every

00:49:27.300 scenario, but it

00:49:28.580 is pointing out

00:49:29.680 the fact that

00:49:30.540 the positions

00:49:32.540 that he took

00:49:33.220 and the ways

00:49:34.660 that he influenced

00:49:35.440 the conservative

00:49:35.840 movement and

00:49:36.820 many different

00:49:38.180 crucial points

00:49:39.280 silenced important

00:49:40.400 voices or excised

00:49:41.940 important opinions

00:49:43.300 that put us in

00:49:44.620 the situation we

00:49:45.420 are.

00:49:46.220 If I can step

00:49:47.040 in, speaking of

00:49:48.660 people who were

00:49:49.560 canceled, Sam

00:49:50.700 Francis' book

00:49:52.080 Beautiful Losers

00:49:52.980 is probably the

00:49:55.280 resource I would

00:49:56.020 start with.

00:49:56.540 As with any

00:49:59.340 truly, quote

00:50:00.340 unquote, banned

00:50:00.940 book, it's quite

00:50:01.680 expensive to buy

00:50:02.340 a copy, but

00:50:03.520 hypothetically, if

00:50:04.900 you wanted their

00:50:05.500 places, you can get

00:50:06.140 it for free, and

00:50:06.780 I'd recommend that

00:50:07.480 as a primer on

00:50:08.140 this topic.

00:50:09.540 Yeah, absolutely.

00:50:10.380 It's an excellent

00:50:11.400 book to kind of

00:50:12.200 get you to

00:50:13.200 understand that

00:50:13.760 mindset here.

00:50:14.480 All right.

00:50:14.900 So, no,

00:50:17.280 McSlob for

00:50:17.980 two dollars.

00:50:18.540 Thank you.

00:50:19.300 Beaver Game

00:50:20.120 Gang Represent.

00:50:21.420 That's your

00:50:22.440 channel, right?

00:50:23.300 It is.

00:50:24.020 So thank you.

00:50:24.880 Thank you, Mr.

00:50:25.760 McSlob.

00:50:26.180 Yes.

00:50:27.880 All right.

00:50:29.360 Cliff Jaded here.

00:50:31.320 Keep your heads up.

00:50:32.520 The lie can't last

00:50:33.460 forever.

00:50:33.900 Hi from Singapore.

00:50:35.140 Big fan of both

00:50:36.740 of you guys.

00:50:37.500 Christ is king.

00:50:38.300 Christ is indeed

00:50:39.380 king, and thank you

00:50:40.280 very much, man.

00:50:41.260 I appreciate it.

00:50:42.220 Tell me more about

00:50:43.200 how Singapore is.

00:50:44.200 I'm very interested.

00:50:49.120 Deuce here again

00:50:50.060 for $20.

00:50:51.160 The right will win

00:50:52.300 when they realize

00:50:53.100 democracy in itself

00:50:54.680 is a system

00:50:55.400 that is left-oriented

00:50:56.460 because it's based

00:50:57.560 on who's more

00:50:58.760 willing to loot

00:50:59.480 the treasury,

00:51:00.640 and this creates

00:51:01.480 the dependence

00:51:01.980 culture that

00:51:03.160 causes progressive

00:51:04.380 de-civilization.

00:51:06.700 You're in great

00:51:07.480 company, making

00:51:08.260 that point, of

00:51:09.040 course.

00:51:09.820 Hans-Hermann

00:51:10.440 Hoppe, Nick

00:51:12.000 Land,

00:51:12.820 Mincis

00:51:13.120 Mullbug.

00:51:14.520 Many people

00:51:15.620 who we have

00:51:17.560 mentioned on this

00:51:18.940 channel, respect,

00:51:20.100 have done streams

00:51:20.960 on, have written

00:51:22.040 pieces on, make

00:51:23.100 exactly this point,

00:51:24.260 and so I think

00:51:25.180 that's a very fair

00:51:26.840 thing to point out,

00:51:28.300 sir.

00:51:31.340 John Carter here.

00:51:33.700 You could say

00:51:35.060 that Rod Dreher's

00:51:35.700 family is a

00:51:36.360 parallel community

00:51:37.220 as in his path,

00:51:38.680 and theirs

00:51:39.340 never intersect.

00:51:40.340 Yeah, I'm not

00:51:41.860 super up on

00:51:42.900 Dreher's personal

00:51:43.520 life, and I

00:51:44.200 don't want to

00:51:44.760 make that what

00:51:45.480 this stream is

00:51:46.500 about, but I

00:51:47.160 appreciate that.

00:51:49.600 Cody Browning

00:51:50.480 here.

00:51:51.560 Oren, you're in

00:51:52.240 the Beaver Gang

00:51:52.700 now, build the

00:51:53.580 dam.

00:51:54.200 Have I been

00:51:54.800 initiated?

00:51:55.620 I wasn't even

00:51:56.100 aware.

00:51:57.200 I think so.

00:51:57.620 It's a very

00:51:59.000 strange cult, but

00:52:00.200 you'll get your

00:52:01.340 benefits package

00:52:03.120 soon.

00:52:03.700 I've seen the

00:52:04.160 Beaver posting,

00:52:05.120 so I've seen

00:52:06.680 that much, but

00:52:07.300 yeah, I don't

00:52:08.580 know the secret

00:52:09.360 handshake or

00:52:09.940 anything.

00:52:10.340 Clint Barr for

00:52:13.320 $10.

00:52:13.880 Great show,

00:52:14.440 fellas.

00:52:14.820 Well, thank you,

00:52:15.280 man.

00:52:15.400 I really appreciate

00:52:16.120 that.

00:52:17.340 And yeah, guys, I

00:52:18.380 really appreciate

00:52:19.060 everybody for

00:52:19.600 coming by.

00:52:20.180 Of course, again,

00:52:20.800 you should make

00:52:21.340 sure to check out

00:52:22.800 Mr. Burden's

00:52:23.460 channel.

00:52:23.920 Does lots of

00:52:24.680 good interviews

00:52:25.260 with people who

00:52:26.380 have been on

00:52:26.800 this show.

00:52:27.340 Many people

00:52:27.700 will be familiar

00:52:28.600 with, but also

00:52:30.240 new faces that

00:52:31.460 you should

00:52:31.800 definitely learn

00:52:33.460 from.

00:52:34.740 All right, guys,

00:52:35.540 we're going to

00:52:35.840 go ahead and

00:52:36.640 wrap this up,

00:52:37.640 but I want to

00:52:38.060 go ahead and

00:52:39.140 once again,

00:52:39.740 thank Mr.

00:52:40.500 Burden for

00:52:40.820 coming on.

00:52:41.900 And if it's

00:52:42.300 your first time

00:52:42.980 on this channel,

00:52:44.160 make sure that

00:52:44.580 you go ahead and

00:52:45.020 subscribe to the

00:52:45.940 O.R.

00:52:46.160 McIntyre show on

00:52:47.380 your favorite

00:52:47.740 podcast platforms

00:52:49.340 and make sure that

00:52:50.900 you go ahead and

00:52:52.080 subscribe to the

00:52:53.120 channel here if you

00:52:53.880 want to watch these

00:52:54.500 on YouTube.

00:52:55.340 Of course, I'm

00:52:55.800 also on Rumble

00:52:56.460 and Odyssey.

00:52:57.000 You can catch

00:52:57.580 everything over on

00:52:58.360 Blaze TV, many

00:52:59.580 different places for

00:53:00.420 you to catch the

00:53:01.240 show.

00:53:02.000 But thank you guys

00:53:02.720 for watching.

00:53:03.420 And as always,

00:53:03.980 I'll talk to you

00:53:05.000 next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - December 05, 2023

Regime Conservatism ｜ Guest： J. Burden ｜ 12⧸5⧸23

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