The Auron MacIntyre Show - Reparations： A Prescription for Disaster ｜ Guest： Jeremy Carl ｜ 3⧸20⧸23

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00:01:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:01:36.960 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:01:38.660 I've got a great stream with a great guest I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:01:43.340 Now, joining me once again from the Claremont Institute, it's Jeremy Carl.

00:01:47.760 Thanks for coming on, man.

00:01:48.540 Thanks so much for having me, Oren.

00:01:51.200 Absolutely.

00:01:51.960 So, I already saw some people, you know, they're already getting wound up here as we were getting ready for this episode.

00:01:58.860 They're like, reparations?

00:01:59.920 Why are you talking about reparations?

00:02:00.920 Why are you talking about reparations?

00:02:01.860 This is so tired.

00:02:03.140 This doesn't make any sense.

00:02:04.580 This is such a distraction.

00:02:05.740 But I think the really interesting thing and the reason I wanted to talk to you about this is that while a lot of conservatives rightly treat this as a ridiculous issue, what they don't understand is that this is already happening now, right?

00:02:18.580 We know that the wider conversation about national reparations or some kind of federal level, some kind of wholesale 50-state reparations thing, that's kind of stalled out in many ways.

00:02:29.580 It's a political football that never really resolves into anything meaningful.

00:02:34.300 But what is happening is that we have individual municipalities, individual states, governors talking about this now, and it's having an impact on the country in ways that people, I think, don't understand.

00:02:46.600 Could you talk a little bit about this more individualized city-level attempt at reparations?

00:02:53.360 Yeah, well, I think the most egregious example, and just because it's San Francisco, people also focus on it, is what's going on in San Francisco.

00:03:00.040 But there are a number of other localities that I mentioned in my piece.

00:03:06.580 I think Evanston, Illinois, has actually paid out at this point something.

00:03:10.480 And I think it's actually quite – I understand the temptation because you read over this stuff and it's so nuts that you're like nobody could actually do it.

00:03:19.320 But in fact, I think this is a very real issue.

00:03:21.620 It's happening, and what's more, I think unless we get really serious, it's going to happen in a lot more places locally and potentially even nationally where we're going to see these sorts of reparations, these types of payouts.

00:03:37.920 I mean, this is not a fake issue at all to me.

00:03:40.400 It's something that is very much real and is very much going to happen.

00:03:43.900 The only question is what form it's going to take and how much the conservatives are going to be able to push back.

00:03:49.480 So for people who don't know, what exactly is a place like San Francisco doing specifically?

00:03:56.280 How are they planning to go about this?

00:03:58.660 Well, they have this plan that they've put forth, and it was put together by this reparations task force.

00:04:05.280 And the task force itself is virtually all made up of African Americans.

00:04:09.180 And they've done a great deal of work internally to get somebody who's formerly incarcerated.

00:04:15.280 And there's all this almost like farcical to any sane person, bean counting they've done to make sure that they're representing every possible subsect of the African American community in San Francisco. 0.99

00:04:29.840 And they put together this task force to make these recommendations and the $5 million, you know, kind of lump sum payment to effectively every San Francisco African American resident has gotten the headlines.

00:04:42.940 But there's a number of other things that are almost as crazy, you know, from kind of mass debt cancellation to selling people their houses, you know, if they're renting for a dollar, you kind of name it, you know, counseling, you know, free counseling for emotional harm to African Americans. 0.74

00:05:02.020 I mean, it sort of goes on, and they've come up with this whole laundry list of things that they are presenting to the San Francisco Board of Supervisors.

00:05:10.760 And subsequent to me writing my article, the first meeting at the Board of Supervisors happened, and everybody basically agreed that this should go forward.

00:05:20.760 Now, there's a lot of, you know, there's a lot of fakery that's going on with this.

00:05:26.140 And do I think that we're going to actually see a $5 million payout?

00:05:29.280 No, but I think it's very indicative of where a very elite space in an elite city, whether or not we like it, is kind of going on this issue.

00:05:40.400 Yeah, and I'm glad that you pointed out kind of the difference between the lump sum payment, which is what gets the headlines, what gets everybody riled up, you know, oh, how would you determine, how does it get divvied up, you know, where does it come from, all that kind of stuff.

00:05:52.740 But what I think is far more insidious and what is far more likely and really is already happening that a lot of people don't understand is kind of this institutional creep of different areas in which this different standard, this handing thing, these handouts, these different allowances that are made into specific communities.

00:06:14.100 And people don't even realize this is going on.

00:06:16.460 So, like you said, forgiveness of, you know, lowering, I believe, of taxes I saw in there at certain areas.

00:06:21.060 You don't have to pay certain taxes, paying off certain mortgages that, you know, all that stuff that's being floated.

00:06:26.180 People laugh at that stuff, but we already know that private institutions are in many ways already taking these steps, saying we have specific loan programs only for people of particular races, particular backgrounds, particular, you know, the Burger King Kids Club collection of, you know, disabilities or other things that you were talking about before.

00:06:48.660 And they're already implementing this in high level banks and other things like that.

00:06:56.600 And so it won't necessarily be, I think, when we see reparations happening, it won't be this mass cash payout.

00:07:04.820 It will most likely be along those lines where favorable opportunities are given to people based on their race, on their level of oppression that is supposed to be, you know, given to them.

00:07:15.120 And that's the stuff that's going to creep its way in, not only because it's easier for people to pass, it's less shocking than the direct cash payment, but actually because it's also more valuable to the Democratic Party and our wider ruling class because it creates a number of clients, right, big patronage clients who are then, you know, one lump sum, you could go become independent with that.

00:07:37.640 You might actually be able to do something valuable and build some kind of generational wealth that could be valuable to your community to that.

00:07:44.320 But if you can keep people on a drip feed of entitlements, that makes them political clients for a much longer period of time.

00:07:52.680 And so I think that's the thing that's far more likely to get instituted under people's noses.

00:07:58.140 Well, I think that's exactly right. And I think there's two different things that are going on.

00:08:02.920 And the first is what you mentioned, this kind of notion that it's much more useful to create a client base over the long term.

00:08:11.180 And in fact, sort of some of the more savvy people involved.

00:08:14.500 I mean, there's two things going on here.

00:08:16.440 One is the fact that these sorts of crazy things could actually make it into a proposal.

00:08:22.600 And I would expect that very few conservatives other than me, I'm sure there are a few others, have actually read through this entire proposal.

00:08:29.940 Maybe you can link to it in the show comments.

00:08:32.140 But I mean, it's like an 80 page, 90 page document, you know, kind of documenting the full sorts of things that they're proposing to do.

00:08:39.960 But I think it's interesting that there's a guy, Amos Brown, who is a longtime African-American minister, NAACP leader and and kind of activist in San Francisco.

00:08:52.940 And he's kind of looking at it just how you say he's basically saying, look, this five million dollar number is fake.

00:09:00.280 And what we really need to be doing is all of these programs, which, oh, by the way, coincidentally, are going to run through me and my allies.

00:09:08.280 And that's where the real game is going to play.

00:09:11.440 And he's kind of putting a stake in the ground to the board of supervisors.

00:09:15.800 So I think that's one element of it.

00:09:17.420 I think the other element of it is that the five million, the absurdity of that number serves as a psychological anchor.

00:09:23.540 And you actually see this, unfortunately, there's a guy, John Dennis, who I actually know a little bit and a nice guy and the head of the San Francisco Republican Party, which, as you could imagine, is a sort of beleaguered entity.

00:09:35.740 He kind of he kind of is falling victim to this anchoring.

00:09:42.000 Excuse me. Problem in that he's out there saying, oh, well, you know, if we just had some better empirical studies, you know, this five million is is crazy.

00:09:52.680 But he doesn't shoot down the concept of it as fundamentally un-American, as fundamentally unrealistic, as fundamentally not something that is actually owed.

00:10:04.060 He you know, he sort of gives the sense from his comments that, well, you know, if we ran some detailed studies and we arrived at, you know, one hundred and eighty thousand dollar per person number, that this would somehow be acceptable.

00:10:16.220 He doesn't say that, but that's the implicit notion of what he's saying.

00:10:21.900 And I think it's interesting that California, which is running a simultaneous reparations thing, which I think is going to be harder for Gavin Newsom, especially with presidential aspirations to kind of push under the rug.

00:10:36.320 They have thrown out a much lower top line number per person, something like two hundred and fifty thousand.

00:10:42.180 Now, of course, that's still absurd. It's not going to happen.

00:10:45.280 At least I don't think it's going to happen.

00:10:46.640 But it's it's indicative of, you know, they say there's a kind of a famous saying, I think it's from Winston Churchill being drunk and somebody will forgive me.

00:10:58.380 I'm sure I'm getting the actual figures wrong.

00:11:00.200 And he goes up to a woman and asks whether he'd sleep with her him for a million pounds.

00:11:05.200 And she says, well, that's certainly a lot of money.

00:11:08.260 I'd have to think about it, you know, but I'm like, I'm not sure about that.

00:11:13.460 You know, so, well, how about a shilling?

00:11:14.940 And she says, certainly not.

00:11:17.040 What sort of woman do you think I am?

00:11:18.580 And he says, well, I think we've already established that, madam.

00:11:21.560 We are merely dickering about the price.

00:11:23.080 And I think that's kind of where we are with this.

00:11:26.580 I mean, if we don't kind of reject the proposal root and branch, we're really just dickering about the price.

00:11:33.280 And I think that is a huge mistake.

00:11:36.580 Yeah, I think it's really important to bring in the concept of anchoring.

00:11:39.420 I've been meaning I've been doing these these episodes on kind of progressive rhetoric.

00:11:43.380 And anchoring is what is a big idea people need to grasp because that is so much of what the the reparations discussion is.

00:11:51.680 It's a it's a huge anchor to put something way out there that people attack and reject.

00:11:56.640 But then they end up, you know, accepting three fourths of the premise that gets you to reparations in their attempt to deny the last quarter mile of the reparations argument.

00:12:07.880 And they don't realize how much they've lost in that.

00:12:10.580 And so I think we definitely need to address this because, you know, as you pointed out, one of the guys here is a reverend, you know, and is so often the case with reverends in this movement.

00:12:21.260 We have to hear a lot about sin and particularly we have to hear about the generational sin of America and how America has some kind of unique debt that it owes to the African-American population or other populations that are considered disadvantaged or put upon or or or benighted by kind of the historic the history of the United States.

00:12:45.040 And it's amazing how much of the conservative movement seems to be willing to on board the vast majority of that argument and is only really dickering over the the things that we use to pay that debt off.

00:13:02.000 Right. How willing they are to get on board with almost all of the the the parts of that argument that are being floated by the left, except for the part where it's cash payments.

00:13:13.160 There should just be some other method or we can't we probably do owe this debt, but we can't properly delineate who would receive it or, you know, who has the right amount of blood mixture or whatever in this.

00:13:22.920 Right. And so therefore, we just can't do it. But they're never attacking the premise of this.

00:13:26.900 And I think that's something that you said is a huge problem.

00:13:29.920 Right. And I tried to do that in my piece. And, you know, just to put my cards absolutely on the table.

00:13:35.100 And I assume this is something I would share with you and a number of your listeners.

00:13:40.000 The U.S. does not owe any person anything, period, based on the color of their skin or some sort of community they belong to.

00:13:51.260 There may be very unique, particular situations where you had something like the Japanese internment folks from the 1940s, where you had actual individuals who'd suffered, you know, very, very specific harm and then were compensated in some clear way where you had a clearly defined group.

00:14:14.760 But that just doesn't exist for for any group in the United States.

00:14:19.660 And if we start playing this racial bean counting about, you know, who is a victim and who is a perpetrator, that is simply incompatible with anything resembling having a functioning multiracial democracy in this country.

00:14:35.760 And it's not going to turn out, I don't think, for the left in quite the salubrious way that they think it's going to.

00:14:42.700 So do you think that there is a way for conservatives to talk about this or it just has to come completely because it's it's this generational guilt, this idea that there's that that one group is going to constantly owe others that and that that is that is somehow unique in the United States or unique to the United States that I think is so destructive.

00:15:08.560 Is there a way in which conservatives or the right can talk about this profitably or is there is it just completely abolishing this discussion from the beginning, just never engaging in it because it's impossible?

00:15:20.280 Well, I think, you know, we need to be strategic.

00:15:23.100 There's a lot of people in a lot of fora where you just don't want to engage because the game is rigged when you walk in.

00:15:28.740 I think what I would say is we don't want to engage in a discussion with maybe our opposition on this because they're just in bad faith.

00:15:35.500 OK, they're just they're out for they're out for a shakedown.

00:15:40.100 But, you know, when we're out kind of communicating to the unwashed masses, I think we do need to talk about it overtly to explain that, of course, you know, there's all sorts of injustice that's happened to all sorts of groups and individuals in the U.S.

00:15:53.880 history, we can talk about how none of that essentially is unique to the U.S.

00:15:59.960 story, whether it be slavery, whether it be discrimination, whether it be, you know, you name it.

00:16:06.460 And kind of as Thomas Sowell has written, and I quoted this in my piece, you know, the quest for cosmic justice kind of always leads to a greater injustice, pretty much.

00:16:17.240 So we simply, you know, we do need to make that argument, even if we're not directly engaging with the bad faith folks on the other side.

00:16:24.080 I do think it's important to explain our position.

00:16:27.580 But then even more provocatively, I think you need to talk about and again, I did this in my piece.

00:16:32.120 Well, if we're going to do this type of racial bean counting, you know, we can start looking at decades of interracial crime victimization. 0.68

00:16:39.360 Right. And what direction does that flow?

00:16:42.420 And by that, I'm not suggesting that this is, in fact, you know, that we should be doing, you know, kind of tallying up those sorts of things and attempting to quantify them.

00:16:52.180 It's just a way of saying, like, this type of group discussion is just not something, it's not, it's a Pandora's box that you can't open.

00:17:02.600 As soon as I start saying, well, one group did this bad thing, somebody else can go say, well, this other group did this bad thing.

00:17:08.540 And there is no end for that in a functioning democracy.

00:17:15.880 I mean, it just, it will, it will end in disaster.

00:17:19.440 You know, we already have an incredibly fraught democratic discussion going on in this country because, you know, I think it's really tricky.

00:17:28.540 I mean, I would never have chosen to diversify our democracy in the way that we've done it.

00:17:32.960 I think it's, it's really hard to hold together these sorts of diverse polities in a democratic regime.

00:17:39.260 But we're here.

00:17:40.940 We're not going to undo the fact that we're here.

00:17:42.980 So let's look for things that can unify us ultimately and not kind of further divide us in some sort of Hobbesian war of all against all.

00:17:51.560 Yeah.

00:17:52.040 It's always interesting when someone starts to try to have that discussion on Twitter, you always see a progressive start doing that because you just know Steve Saylor is going to show up in the, in the mentions.

00:18:01.720 You can, you can, you can, yeah, I would think someone said Steve Saylor is like the boss music for progressives attempting to discuss crime statistics.

00:18:09.760 Yeah.

00:18:09.920 Um, so, so yeah, it seems, it seems like something that you, if, if you're interested in trying to have a functional, uh, like you said, multi-ethnic community, then you probably don't want to go back and try to rehash every single time that one, one side made the other side of victim.

00:18:25.000 Because you might discover that it's not quite the neat narrative that, you know, the left wants to frame it as it's not this direct flow of one group to another that they hope to, uh, impress on people.

00:18:36.460 And yet we do, I think we do have to talk about that amongst ourselves, not because we're looking to go, you know, hand some list of grievances to some other race or some other community or anything like that.

00:18:47.800 But because if you don't make the argument, then people don't even, aren't even thinking about it.

00:18:52.880 They're not even aware it's there.

00:18:54.140 I think you have to concretize it and say, look, there are, there's, here's lots of things that go both ways in this discussion.

00:19:01.620 And the correct way is not to have somebody adjudicating it, but just to say, look, we're going to always try to treat everybody, regardless of race, regardless of, uh, sex, regardless of community in a fair and, and, uh, a fair and just way with equal protection of, of the laws.

00:19:19.620 And that's really the only way to, to go forward.

00:19:22.920 Yeah.

00:19:23.360 Cause you can see what happens when you don't, right?

00:19:25.980 Like you have discussions.

00:19:27.400 I mean, we just saw the Scott Adams situation, right?

00:19:30.880 And Scott Adams just says really simply, like, if there's a group of people who are being taught to hate me, then maybe it's best that I don't end up in a situation where I'm interacting with people who are being trained by the media to hate me.

00:19:44.200 Like that just seems like a really, a really silly thing to put myself in a situation.

00:19:48.660 And of course, like he just got destroyed, right?

00:19:50.560 He got canceled from everything and you know, there's this, you know, nobody, nobody can carry his comments, but then we just had Robin DiAngelo like yesterday.

00:19:58.180 And the video came out of her basically saying, well, this is exactly what people of color should do, you know, which I think is a fascinating tournament itself, people of color, but I don't know if I want to dump down that rabbit hole.

00:20:10.120 But anyway, but this is exactly, she said basically what Scott Adams said, like you just should, except even actually maybe, maybe less so, but, but you know, she said, you know, that people of color should separate themselves from, from white people.

00:20:25.040 And we see that actually now this is a new big part of, uh, of kind of this woke counseling.

00:20:30.720 I wrote down the name of it cause it was so weird.

00:20:33.000 What was the name of the, um, Oh, uh, uh, affinity spaces.

00:20:37.040 So affinity spaces is kind of a new term for segregating people.

00:20:42.180 Um, and, and everybody needs their own affinity spaces.

00:20:44.860 And the really interesting thing about the creation of these affinity spaces is of course the, the affinity spaces created by kind of these woke racial counselors are, uh, of firming for people of color.

00:20:58.480 It's where they talk about how great they are and how they've been oppressed and how they, how they can overcome it and the affinity spaces for whites. 0.65

00:21:06.640 And they do create affinity spaces for, for, for, uh, white people in their organizations are there for struggle sessions.

00:21:13.420 They're there for, so they can all get together and talk about their privilege and how much they've hurt everybody.

00:21:17.860 And so it seems, it seems that when we start having these discussions there, all of a sudden, both sides of this come up with kind of a similar solution, except one says, I just don't want people to be taught to hate me.

00:21:29.260 And the other one says, no, we should actually segregate groups so we can talk about how much they're victim.

00:21:35.220 One group can talk about how much to victimize and the other group talk about how sinful they are for victimizing.

00:21:40.120 Absolutely.

00:21:40.960 And I think there are two things going on.

00:21:43.240 I mean, first with the Robin D'Angelo, uh, versus Scott Adams thing is, as Steve Saylor says, my pronouns are who, whom, and that's, I think what's going on here, right?

00:21:52.780 It's like the exact same space or as, as my, uh, Claremont colleague, Michael Anton, uh, talked about the celebration parallax, right?

00:22:00.500 It's not happening and it's good that it is right.

00:22:02.820 The, the observation is either something that we celebrate and is wonderful.

00:22:07.920 If one group, uh, says it, or if a disfavored group says it, we totally deny that it's even happening.

00:22:14.240 So I think that's one thing.

00:22:16.260 And I think the second thing is to understand, unfortunately, how long this has been going on in some form and it really flows from elite spaces.

00:22:24.820 And I'll give you an example of this.

00:22:26.500 I entered Yale as a freshman in 1991 as a kind of very naive to the ways of elite world, uh, kid from, uh, North Carolina.

00:22:36.400 And when I showed up, one of my freshman roommates was from Puerto Rico and we kind of had, uh, and we're still friends, but, uh, we, we sort of had, uh, freshman orientation.

00:22:48.040 Um, but before the regular freshman orientation, he had had his own affinity of freshman orientation for just Puerto Rican students.

00:22:56.520 And of course the message is like, he shows up and before he's on campus, um, he's already got whether or not he even really desired this, this affinity space that he's been told he needs to be a part of.

00:23:10.940 And these are, you know, his initial friends and everything else.

00:23:13.800 And of course, you know, depending on the student, they may drift more or less from that.

00:23:17.720 But that was the direction even 30 plus years ago of where elite discourse and elite institutions were saying that you should go.

00:23:28.080 And nobody really questioned other than, you know, a few cranky right-wingers on campus, whether, and I say that obviously tongue in cheek, I mean, they were totally correct.

00:23:37.120 Um, whether this was something we should be doing, right?

00:23:40.820 Like whether this was good, whether we should be making these sorts of racially essentialist, uh, sorts of arguments about what affinity groups and things like that, uh, were salient to people and where they wanted to participate.

00:23:54.240 Um, uh, so, you know, now 30 years downstream, we're seeing this spread out into much, uh, broader segments of society.

00:24:03.520 Absolutely.

00:24:04.140 And we're going to get deeper into that.

00:24:05.700 I'm also going to ask Jeremy about kind of the news of Trump and everything that's going to be going on.

00:24:10.400 Will he be charged?

00:24:11.420 What will that mean?

00:24:12.400 We'll get all into that in just a second, but first let's hear from our sponsor for today's show.

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00:25:51.640 So before we move from this topic to kind of the news with Trump, I wanted to hit on one more aspect of your piece, which I thought was very interesting.

00:26:03.100 You came out and just said directly that a big part of this is kind of disenfranchising white citizens, white voters in the American political process.

00:26:13.080 And that, you know, a lot of this stuff, a lot of what happens during these discussions is a rewriting of American history.

00:26:20.700 We get all of a sudden a lot of, frankly, black supremacy where there's, you know, it turns out that African-Americans invented and created basically everything that is good and right in America. 0.99

00:26:31.840 And it's only the influence of white Americans that have just destroyed everything that the that, you know, the wholesome creation of, you know, the African-American community would have made.

00:26:42.220 Obviously, there are amazing contributions to America that come from this community.

00:26:46.560 But it seems like there's a very particular interest in removing basically all accomplishments that might have come from people of European descent and replacing them all from favored pieces of the progressive coalition, rewriting the American narrative into one in which, you know, basically there's this racial separatism.

00:27:07.780 And it was always white Americans just robbing other ethnicities of their amazing inventions and heritage and those people like somehow, you know, soldiering through and creating the America we know and love today. 0.90

00:27:20.920 Yeah, it's sort of the mainstreaming of what I might call a nation of Islam historiography where, you know, the evil Yaakub, the white devil sort of controls everything. 0.99

00:27:30.860 And I mean, obviously, that's a little bit of an exaggeration, but it's not it's not much.

00:27:34.640 I mean, it's funny because that was always seen of of all of the very controversial aspects of the nation of Islam back when it started as kind of the most almost toxic and crazy and and, you know, in unpalatable, unrealistic. 0.99

00:27:49.980 And yet, in some ways, so many of those assumptions and this get back to your earlier comments have really become baked into a lot of the mainstream discourse now.

00:28:00.200 And, of course, of course, I'm writing about this in my book that looks at the rise of anti-white discrimination and and racism in America in a variety of fields.

00:28:08.340 And I have a whole chapter in there on history and how we are rewriting our history in that way, not in a way that, you know, realistically acknowledges the contributions of individuals and groups that are sort of outside of, you know, kind of white Europeans, but just a kind of wholesale rewriting of American history that is no more factual.

00:28:32.740 In fact, probably even a less factual account than sort of a turn of the 20th century account of, you know, U.S. history would have been that would have left out a lot of people who are not European Americans from the American story.

00:28:48.240 So it's it's it's really quite shocking. It does have a a very overt political component in attempts to use moral shame as as kind of and Zach Goldberg, who's at the Manhattan Institute, has done some very interesting work on this and how the media in particular kind of inculcates this sense of moral shame in white people to then kind of prime the ground for various political demands to be made.

00:29:18.980 But that's really what's what's going on. And it's really toxic. And again, I don't think we should engage really directly with the people making these arguments because they're just in bad faith.

00:29:28.120 The people are in bad faith. The arguments are in bad faith. But I think that we are mistaken if we just kind of la dee da, you know, we'll ignore it. It'll go away.

00:29:37.360 We know we have to at least to folks who are listening to us, certainly on our side, but also to the great American middle out there.

00:29:45.520 We need to kind of put forth the arguments for why these statements are wrong and why they're damaging.

00:29:51.100 Yeah, because, you know, like you said in your piece, what happens in California transfers to the rest of the country.

00:29:59.260 You know, the the the great red hot chili pepper song of Californication. Right.

00:30:03.620 But but that does affect everything. And it feels like there really is a very sustained and push to really South African eyes the our system here.

00:30:15.860 The racial quotas in every scenario, this generational guilt, this endless blame and at every turn, like you said, there's always this incredibly bad faith demand for wealth transfer.

00:30:28.260 Like, yeah, this is just the key. It turns out that the solution for every bit of this is always, you know, wealth transfer and always an exclusion of opportunity for the oppressor class.

00:30:40.480 You know, in in in in service to the victim class that that is that is created here.

00:30:46.400 And I think that's just incredibly dangerous. It's going to it's going to take us down.

00:30:50.500 It can only create more division. It can only create more hostility.

00:30:54.160 It seems like a good short term solution for power now, but it's just incredibly devastating.

00:30:59.780 Again, as we're seeing in places like South Africa in the long run for just everyone involved, it just deteriorates the the ability of society to function.

00:31:08.680 And it really brings you to a really critical situation. But it doesn't seem that that the conservative movement has a narrative on this.

00:31:18.400 It doesn't it isn't like you said, you the people involved on in progressives from those parts, just bad faith.

00:31:24.200 But it seems like conservatives themselves don't are so terrified of this issue.

00:31:28.660 They don't have a narrative on this. They don't have a way which to process race relations other than to say, like, well, the dims are the real racist. 0.68

00:31:35.880 That's really the only the only club in their bag here is actually it turns out the dims are the real KKK.

00:31:41.380 So we're just going to take the democratic narrative on race and say, yeah, we agree with this one, but they're the bad guys. 0.96

00:31:48.040 Yeah. And we have to get bolder or we're going to going to lose.

00:31:51.300 I mean, I don't enjoy personally talking about a lot of this stuff, not just because it's contentious.

00:31:55.480 And I'm not like an inherently I'm not like one of these guys.

00:31:59.060 I mean, there are people who just delight in, you know, like a guy like James O'Keefe just loves going out there and being confrontational.

00:32:07.280 God bless him. You know, we need we need people like that. That's not me.

00:32:10.440 I mean, I don't I wish there were I didn't have to be out here talking about this stuff.

00:32:15.320 But if we don't, the consequences are so much worse that we're morally and and politically obliged to kind of correct these false narratives that are being put out, to put out the truth,

00:32:27.520 to accept that you're going to be called like a racist or a fascist or a KKK member or whatever else.

00:32:32.740 Frankly, if you're not getting that type of epithet from the left, nothing you're doing is probably mattering at all, quite frankly.

00:32:39.180 You know, if they're not going after you and they've gone after me in other contexts and fairly prominent ways,

00:32:46.080 you know, then you're just you're not trying hard enough. You're not pushing hard enough.

00:32:51.100 So we do need to move beyond the Dems are the real racist kind of rhetoric that just reifies their Dem frame of all these questions in the first place.

00:33:04.200 And I mean, I think the good news is South Africa.

00:33:08.020 I mean, obviously, if you followed South Africa closely from kind of the last days of apartheid to where we are today,

00:33:16.260 I mean, it's a very sort of you went from great promise to something that is pretty bleak and looking like it's going to get bleaker.

00:33:23.500 I don't think we are for a variety of reasons in that apocalyptic a scenario, nor are we likely to be.

00:33:30.180 I think it's there's just a variety of historical and cultural and different groups involved.

00:33:35.820 So I don't think we'll wind up there, but we can still wind up in a very, very bad place.

00:33:40.600 And if you look at for people who are just, you know, obviously not on our end, but for the people who are horrified by the existence of Donald Trump,

00:33:50.380 they need to understand. And again, this has been pretty clearly documented.

00:33:54.120 We have this great awokening as it were, you know, kind of emerged from about 2012 to 2014, where the left,

00:34:02.020 which has always been kind of radical on these issues, but just got much, much more radical really quickly.

00:34:06.780 Um, and Trump's rise was a response to that. I mean, Trump was, uh, not the instigator. He was the, the response.

00:34:17.060 Um, and I, I kind of say jokingly, but I think it's, it's absolutely true. Um, we are headed on a path where in 15 or 20 years,

00:34:26.760 the libs are going to have strange new respect for Donald Trump.

00:34:30.140 And they are going to look back to the halcyon days of Donald Trump, uh, you know, who was a patriot, who, uh, you know,

00:34:38.220 put together the platinum plan, who, you know, cared about, uh, you know, whatever. I mean, he, you know,

00:34:44.480 we are headed toward a world where if there keeps being this type of racial pushing, there's going to be pushback

00:34:52.360 in ways that are alarming and really damaging because people are going, a certain group of people,

00:34:58.520 even if it's not the establishment are going to defend themselves. And some of them will do that

00:35:03.060 in ways that are appropriate and socially responsible and others won't in the ways that

00:35:09.380 we're seeing right now from the left. And when we have two playing at that game, uh, things are going

00:35:14.040 to get very ugly, very quickly. And, uh, you know, I worry that that's, that's a road that we're headed

00:35:19.360 down if we don't course correct pretty quickly.

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00:35:52.060 Well, speaking of reactions to Donald Trump, uh, let's, let's go ahead and get more.

00:35:56.860 Yes, I appreciate those. That was a pro move on your part. Well done. Um, let's go ahead and,

00:36:02.280 uh, talk a little bit about the news of the day here. Now, uh, obviously we heard from Trump's own

00:36:08.160 truth social account, uh, and Donald Trump, just go on Twitter, please, please just do us all a favor.

00:36:13.260 Just go back on Twitter. Elon, just, just pay the man, whatever, whatever truth social is,

00:36:17.220 is got him locked into contractually, just buy out the clause and put them, it'll be worth your,

00:36:21.880 you'll, you'll, you'll make it back tenfold immediately. I promise. Um, but, uh, but from

00:36:26.340 what we saw, he is saying that he's going to be, uh, arrested on Tuesday over charges of misuse of

00:36:35.040 funds to pay off stormy Daniels and hush money and whatnot. Um, now I'm not sure because it's Donald

00:36:42.140 Trump, whether there's some level of hyperbole here, it sounds like there are actually some,

00:36:46.880 there is actually some, some truth to this. I don't know. They're, they're going to show up and

00:36:50.660 try to perp walk Donald Trump out of Mar-a-Lago, but it does seem like the, you know, the, the DA in

00:36:56.140 Manhattan might be, might be willing to go ahead and pursue this. Do you think they're crazy enough 0.50

00:37:01.600 to do this? What do you think about Trump's response asking for protests? Is this just campaign 0.70

00:37:07.340 fodder or, or are we really looking at a constitutional crisis here? Well, I don't

00:37:12.860 know that we're yet at a constitutional crisis because I don't think there's going to be anything

00:37:16.860 that, um, they're likely to do that will really keep Trump from being able to run. Although it's

00:37:23.360 always clearly been the game of the folks within the democratic coalition who wanted to pursue the

00:37:29.280 criminal, uh, strategy with Trump to kind of take him off the playing field. But I think the savvier

00:37:35.400 folks in the democratic party realize, and we're already seeing this, that this helps Trump. I

00:37:40.880 mean, it helps Trump a lot with a, you, you know, if you're on Twitter and not just truth, which you

00:37:46.120 are, of course, excuse me, you see lots of people, uh, you know, on our side, some of them saying,

00:37:52.760 yeah, well, you know, I've got some reservations about Trump, but this is outrageous. Right. And which

00:37:57.600 it is, of course, it's totally outrageous. It's totally political. And so everybody is kind of

00:38:02.700 rallying around Trump to defend it. And I think Trump is also a very savvy guy, obviously about

00:38:07.400 media and about politics and understands this and understands that, um, kind of making this a, um,

00:38:14.960 a media story helps him. Um, obviously while there's not a direct constitutional crisis,

00:38:21.360 it is a reflection of the very dark place we are in as a country that, uh, Trump could become the

00:38:29.900 first ex president to be criminally charged in this way. It's, it's an indication that our opponents

00:38:36.080 kind of don't respect the rule book at all, um, that they're willing to basically, uh, take down

00:38:42.900 Trump by any means necessary. And it's, it's, you know, it's kind of another, uh, you know, kind of

00:38:49.000 another mark for the accelerationist black pill, um, kind of, uh, view of where we're going, uh, in

00:38:55.600 America right now. Yeah. You, you really do wonder if the left understands the gravity of this level of

00:39:02.700 acceleration, right? Like it, they didn't need to do this. They really don't. And so by, by applying

00:39:13.160 this pressure, like you said, it benefits Trump politically, but it puts their power in a really

00:39:18.720 tenuous place. Like you're right. Like it's probably not going to come to this, but I mean, if you're in a

00:39:24.100 scenario, you know, someone already asked Ron DeSantis about this and he kind of, well, I'm not 0.59

00:39:29.320 going to get involved in this kind of clown show. You know, I don't know about paying off porn stars. 0.94

00:39:33.780 Well, you know, got a little dig in there and you know, fair, fair for Ron. It's not like, uh, it's

00:39:38.260 not like Donald Trump has been particularly kind to run DeSantis lately. So I, I, I, I think both sides

00:39:44.260 get a little whiny about this. I, I kind of get tired of the DeSantis stands being like, Oh, I can't

00:39:49.480 believe that, uh, you know, he's not coming out and forcefully, you know, uh, defending

00:39:54.540 Trump at every opportunity. It's like, well, yeah, if you, if I was Ron DeSantis and Trump

00:39:59.000 talked about me like that, I would not respond. I mean, look at, you know, look at Ted Cruz

00:40:03.900 and the way he responded to Trump after Trump talked about his wife. Like, I'm sorry. That's,

00:40:08.120 that's just a demasculating scenario. Sorry guys. I know people out there. I love Ted Cruz,

00:40:11.880 but, uh, once you, once you've done that, it's hard to respect you as a, you know, but so I,

00:40:16.600 at, at some level, I totally get Ron DeSantis's point, but on, on, on the other side, you know,

00:40:22.300 you, you do leadership is saying this is wrong. Like leadership is saying, uh, you, no matter

00:40:29.700 who Donald Trump is and what he said to me personally, this is not how we operate and

00:40:35.460 allowing this in our, in our country is just absolutely horrific. And there is a, there is

00:40:40.880 a, a scenario. I'm not saying this is the scenario, but there is a scenario where extradition

00:40:46.580 says, you know, they got to deliver Trump to New York and, uh, Ron DeSantis says no.

00:40:52.580 Right. Or, or is asked to say no, DeSantis politically. I mean, DeSantis in a difficult

00:40:58.980 situation, you know, I think, uh, he kind of tried to thread the needle with his response,

00:41:03.900 depending on whether you're pro DeSantis or pro Trump, he either did that pretty well,

00:41:07.560 or he didn't do it pretty well. Um, but I think that's clearly what he was trying to do.

00:41:11.140 I think in many ways, a dream scenario for DeSantis would be if he were put in a position

00:41:17.380 where he has to extra extradite Trump or approve of it. And he just says, no, I'm not going to do it

00:41:23.080 because then he also, he looks like he's in charge and, uh, he looks like he's, uh, you know,

00:41:29.000 kind of standing by Trump, but it's a little difficult because, uh, you know, he doesn't

00:41:32.540 necessarily want to rally around this particular flag for his own reasons. And he doesn't want to be,

00:41:37.420 uh, emasculated, uh, Ted Cruz style. And I have to say, I mean, this is one of these

00:41:42.340 weeks where, um, I am really kind of tired of the various partisan sniping on Twitter. And I,

00:41:49.480 I've not, you know, endorsed a candidate, uh, for 2024. I I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, fond for different

00:41:54.860 reasons of both, uh, Trump and DeSantis. And then there's a pretty sharp fall off after that,

00:41:58.920 in terms of my, uh, enthusiasm for folks. Um, but not buying the Nikki Haley t-shirt.

00:42:04.940 Yeah, no, no, I'm not buying the Nikki Haley t-shirt. I've, uh, I'm, I'm not, uh, I'm not

00:42:10.440 a Pence stan. Uh, so, uh, you know, I don't have a dog in the fight, uh, per se. Um, but

00:42:18.680 the kind of sniping back and forth and the, the kind of essential eyes to go, you know, this,

00:42:23.600 even Elon did it, you know, this, this is absolutely, you know, Trump will cakewalk into

00:42:28.320 election if he's perp walked today. We're 10 months away from the first primary votes.

00:42:35.080 Chill. Just chill. I mean, like we are, I mean, it's like just because something's happening

00:42:41.080 does not require you to have a hot take about it. Um, we are so far away from votes where

00:42:48.140 this matters. There's going to be so much water under the bridge between this time. I mean,

00:42:53.380 I do think that the one thing DeSantis has done that's judicious is kind of not immediately

00:42:57.820 jumping in, you know, full, you know, there's no percentage in that for him. Um, you know,

00:43:04.200 and at the same time, you obviously, uh, you know, he doesn't want to look like the villain

00:43:08.560 in terms of doing anything to, uh, validate the government's actions in this regard. But,

00:43:15.740 um, there's just so many things that are going to happen. Um, this is a good thing for Trump

00:43:21.020 politically that it's happening. It's a bad thing for our country that, uh, the Democrats

00:43:25.320 have kind of sunk to this low, but how it's going to play out in a primary, we just don't

00:43:31.740 know. There's so many other things that are going to happen between now and then. And we

00:43:36.100 just need to sit back and not rush to have a hot take on how this is going to determine

00:43:42.260 everything. Cause it's not. Yeah, it is. It is very interesting. A lot of people,

00:43:47.900 you know, saying, Oh, well, if he gets arrested, then that's, you know, he, he's a lock, you know,

00:43:52.020 it's, it's over. It's like, I don't know, guys, like, have you been paying attention to how

00:43:56.440 Democrats have been able to destroy plenty of people with this process? Like,

00:44:00.900 especially when there are other viable, like, uh, you know, candidates out there. I'm not sure that

00:44:05.740 this is, this is necessarily the gift. Um, you know, long-term people think this is though.

00:44:10.900 You're right that it becomes a very interesting scenario over who, if DeSantis says no to some

00:44:16.440 kind of extradition, then, then who really benefits from that. And while they're both like

00:44:20.260 kind of doing this frenemy showdown in the middle of the whole thing of like, who's going to, who

00:44:24.940 of these two people who are battling against each other and are probably going to be hating each

00:44:29.640 other, you know, even more at that point, who's going to benefit more from the defense of

00:44:33.420 Donald Trump is, is, is kind of a very interesting dynamic, but it, it is a really bad sign for the

00:44:39.180 Republic that that is the most pertinent political, uh, uh, political question is like who would

00:44:46.900 benefit more from a highly political prosecution of opponents by our insanely corrupt federal

00:44:54.600 government, who is more than willing to wield the DOJ as a weapon to just destroy their political

00:45:00.160 enemies. No, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's just, it's, we, we can't know. Um, so we're just

00:45:05.520 going to have to see how it plays out. Um, and, uh, you know, I think Trump is a guy who's good at

00:45:13.080 being the center of attention and he's grabbed the media attention. And I think that's helped him in

00:45:18.320 the polls, uh, right now, but there's just still, there's a long way to go. There's a long way to see

00:45:23.620 how this plays out, what the Democrats can throw at him and, and how, how much it's going to matter,

00:45:28.860 uh, for those who are going to vote in this primary, who are not necessarily fanatical partisans of one

00:45:35.360 candidate or the other. And while that is not a large group on Twitter where everybody, you know,

00:45:40.280 seems to have a life or death take, I think it's still a very large number of Republican voters.

00:45:44.980 Yeah. I'm just in this weird scenario where like, I am a Ron DeSantis fan. I live in, in the kingdom

00:45:50.860 of Ron DeSantis and I am a beneficiary of his, of his rule. Um, but I just don't think he should

00:45:56.660 run, but obviously, you know, because I just, I don't think, I think he can do more good regionally

00:46:01.120 than he can nationally at this moment. But, um, but you know, that, that makes, so it puts me in a

00:46:06.340 weird position of like, I liked Ron DeSantis. I think he's good. I just, you know, I just think

00:46:10.000 that Trump firing that Trump missile at the media is, is usually the best thing you can do with an

00:46:15.760 election cycle at this point is, is my personal opinion. So I, so it's kind of like, I like both

00:46:20.460 for different reasons. I, you know, and, and so I, I'm not really hostile to either one. And so

00:46:24.980 I'm just like, like you, I'm like, come on guys, settle down. Like, let's pretend like we care about

00:46:29.080 a country for 10 minutes. Well, and it's just, it's so, I mean, look, there's paid partisans out

00:46:35.100 there on each thing and bless their hearts as they say back in the South, you know? Um, but for

00:46:42.440 everybody else, this sort of sniping, like, you know, Trump is the antichrist or DeSantis is the

00:46:47.700 antichrist or whatever. I mean, it's just, it's so low IQ, just stop. I mean, these are candidates 0.75

00:46:53.300 with both some very strong positives, um, some, some negatives that are also out there and, and,

00:47:01.660 you know, you can wait however you want to. Um, the notion that kind of either one of them is kind

00:47:07.400 of a simp or a total failure or an establishment creature. It's just, I mean, people really do believe

00:47:14.200 this, but it's, it's not, to me, it's not intellectually serious. It's not an intellectually

00:47:18.160 serious look at either one of their records. And so I hope that, um, at least among people

00:47:23.920 who are not paid partisans of one or the other that will tone the temperature down on some of

00:47:28.060 these discussions. Absolutely. All right. Well, let's go ahead and run to some questions here

00:47:33.040 real quick before we go. But, uh, but before we do get to the questions of the people, is there

00:47:38.840 anything you want to let people know about? You got a piece coming out or something that people

00:47:42.820 should check out before we start taking questions? Well, I've got, I might be writing

00:47:47.260 some more pieces in this vein. Uh, I've got one I'm working on right now about, uh, that I'm kind

00:47:52.540 of tentatively calling the coming collapse of the democratic party coalition. Um, and I'm actually

00:47:57.480 arguing that partially because of some of this insane racial stuff that they're doing, that the 0.74

00:48:02.200 democratic coalition is much less, um, coherent and stable than it looks like right now, that, that in

00:48:08.920 fact, this is going to break upon the shores of reality and that's going to be a big trend.

00:48:13.320 I've got my book that I mentioned that's, that's not going to be out for, for probably a year plus,

00:48:17.640 but, uh, certainly want to push it. And then obviously, uh, my Twitter handle, Jeremy Carl

00:48:21.740 four, uh, is, uh, that's number four, uh, J E R E M Y C A R L is a great place to follow 1.00

00:48:28.420 me. I post all my, my work there or at my website, jeremycarl.com. I've got links to a lot

00:48:33.520 of my stuff. So, uh, that would be a places to go to look for, for more from me. Excellent. All

00:48:38.640 right, let's go ahead and take a look at our questions. Uh, Ronald McNuggets, uh, thanks for

00:48:43.700 your super chat, but you did it right before we got started. So I can't throw up on the screen,

00:48:47.680 but I'll go ahead and read it out. We appreciate it. Uh, the regime is trying to provoke a non-peaceful

00:48:52.080 reaction to justify further clampdowns and revoking rights of regime dissidents. Is it, uh, is it

00:48:57.340 possible to escape this Hegelian dialectic dialectic economic meltdown is only the only

00:49:03.960 idea I've got. And yeah, this is, so this is a real interesting problem. I talked to

00:49:07.920 Trish woods, uh, about this, uh, on her show over the weekend, but we're in this really,

00:49:13.460 uh, difficult scenario for the right where, you know, we're, we're told the story about

00:49:17.700 protests, right? Protests are what you do to get your voice heard. You got the right to

00:49:21.960 assemble. You got freedom of speech, you get everybody together and you let the government

00:49:25.660 know that you don't like what they're doing. And so obviously with this announcement of

00:49:28.980 what's going on with Trump, you know, he urged there to be, uh, you know, uh, kind of protests

00:49:33.840 on his behalf, that kind of thing. There's, there are two camps, people saying, okay, we

00:49:38.800 got to take some kind of action. If you sit around this whole time and you don't do this

00:49:42.340 kind of popular political organization, then the left is just going to crush you because

00:49:46.900 you sat around and tried to be too smart about this and did nothing. And other people saying,

00:49:50.760 look, the protests won't change anything. And these are just going to be fed traps.

00:49:53.960 We already know that the security state is interested in infiltrating these things and

00:49:57.740 leveraging for leveraging them in order to justify more attacks on, you know, the right

00:50:03.180 and Trump supporters and others in general. What do we do in this scenario? Is there even a good

00:50:08.500 answer to this? You know? Well, it's tricky. And I actually, a Twitter thread that got a little

00:50:13.300 bit of attention about this very subject where I said, look, I'm, you guys are all adults. You're

00:50:18.600 smart people. Uh, you're listening to the show. I'm sure you can make your own decisions.

00:50:22.260 The only thing I would caution people is to just understand. And I put this in the Twitter

00:50:27.020 thread, the power relations that you're not, if you're thinking of doing this in a really blue

00:50:32.280 city, you need to view yourself as like a Soviet regime dissident or a Chinese dissident. Almost

00:50:37.660 you don't have full rights. You don't, I don't care what the nominal stuff is. If you watch what

00:50:42.380 happened with January 6th, even for people who are not participating in anything violent. Um,

00:50:48.260 so you just need to go in if you decide, I mean, if you decide to go in either non-violently

00:50:53.020 or full brave heart, you know, no matter what it is, um, uh, you need to understand kind

00:50:58.340 of how you're going to be treated if you're in a blue jurisdiction. And I kind of did this

00:51:03.320 and then it was actually interesting. I put this out, it got a little bit of attention.

00:51:06.020 And I heard from a friend of mine who had been one of the student leaders of the Velvet

00:51:10.720 Revolution in Czechoslovakia, where they'd overthrown the communists. And I heard from

00:51:15.720 him in months, he's like, dude, you're exactly right. This is what, uh, you know, we were

00:51:21.080 always cognizant of this when we were student leaders against the communists. And what he

00:51:25.000 really advised was doing things that confused them. And this is almost like an Alinsky type

00:51:29.280 take he had where he's kind of like, I mean, he even said, and this is obviously not quite

00:51:33.300 relevant to the thing, but he's like public Dungeons and Dragons tournaments. I mean,

00:51:37.180 do, do tactics that are fun for your guys that flummox and make fun of their guys that

00:51:43.300 you don't, when the regime controls every institution, you know, he said in the way that

00:51:49.020 the left does today, a frontal assault is usually, and I mean that metaphorically, not physically,

00:51:54.980 just to be clear, it's, it's usually a risky losing strategy. I mean, sometimes, uh, if you

00:52:01.020 do it the way the civil rights leaders did it, where, you know, you have kind of grandmothers

00:52:05.260 being clubbed down on TV, then that can sometimes play in your favor if you can get the other

00:52:10.060 guys to be egregious enough, but a lot of times it doesn't work. And so what he sort of said

00:52:14.680 is, you know, you almost have to have a judo strategy where you're kind of using the enemy's

00:52:20.240 strength and power against them. And I do think that quietism per se is a mistake. I mean, I'm

00:52:26.160 not a Curtis Yarvin guy in that particular respect, but I do think that we need to, any,

00:52:31.780 any tactic we do, we need to think about what's smart, what's strategic, what is likely to leave us

00:52:39.100 with more power than we have it. And it shouldn't be about feeling good. It's about what gives us

00:52:44.220 more power, more authority, more ability to fight back and take the next step.

00:52:49.040 Yeah, I think that's a really good point. You know, we don't, we just don't have the media top

00:52:52.360 cover for hoping that the egregious crackdowns of the regime play out well across, you know,

00:52:58.240 sympathetic groups. And so having, you know, one of the things that made the me magic of kind of

00:53:05.000 2016, so, or 2015, 16, so powerful was that it was, it was kind of pushing the envelope and, and,

00:53:11.860 and working on the edges in ways that the regime, it was making fun of them. You know, they were just

00:53:17.920 so trapped by it constantly and they didn't know how to address it because none of it was really

00:53:23.240 aggressive. None of it was really illegal, except, I mean, obviously check with Douglas Mackey on that.

00:53:28.220 So I'm not saying that none of this has costs, but I, I think it's a really good point to say,

00:53:33.300 rather than putting together things that look threatening, that, that give the appearance

00:53:37.740 of the dog biting back after being kicked a million times, think of things that, that,

00:53:43.380 that are funny, that are subversive, that, that delegitimize, delegitimize, I can do this,

00:53:50.340 the regime in a, in a way that is completely inert, that has, is very optical, that doesn't have any,

00:53:58.560 any way for them to kind of paint this as a, as a dangerous activity. So rather than dressing up

00:54:03.620 and grabbing a bunch of shields and face masks and, and, and donning your FBI windbreaker,

00:54:08.300 maybe you go ahead and put together a group that is a little more able to, you know, play with and

00:54:15.080 mock and, and, and, and subvert the regime and, and kind of their institutions and their credentials

00:54:20.280 and those kinds of things, rather than bring them that pressure, you know, head on and give them the

00:54:25.400 enemy that they're looking for. Yeah. You, you want to make them look as uncool and as totalitarian

00:54:30.040 as they actually are. And you want all of the people who want to be with, with the people,

00:54:36.740 with, with the momentum, with, with the integrity to kind of flock to your side. And that's, and I

00:54:42.520 think that's how you do that. That's exactly right. Glow in the dark here for $10. I think we're

00:54:47.500 starting to see, to reach Zimbabwe or South African levels of black Marxist grievance. Don't tell 0.81

00:54:53.780 anyone that we bought the slaves a country for themselves and they still chose to stay. Well, I think 0.69

00:54:59.320 that you're, I think Jeremy kind of already spoke to the fact that he doesn't, he doesn't think we're

00:55:03.900 quite there when it comes to reaching South African levels, but there is obviously, uh, as we addressed

00:55:11.060 a, a, a growing push for this, like this is a core of, uh, of a lot of this. And I think it's just

00:55:19.400 incredibly destructive. I'm not sure how much of it is Marxist, but, uh, but, but, uh, certainly in,

00:55:25.020 in South Africa it is. Um, but, but there is obviously a real push for this and it is very

00:55:30.480 ugly and, uh, it does have very serious consequences like Jeremy had pointed out.

00:55:35.240 Yeah. And a lot of this is just, uh, you know, we need to tell particularly some of these,

00:55:40.380 and I don't want to, I think it's too reductionistic. I mean, we've talked a lot

00:55:43.480 because this is a reparations article about African Americans and whites, but it's not just

00:55:48.680 a biracial dynamic. I mean, there's lots of other groups that are involved and we're seeing this

00:55:53.400 in, you know, playing out in less dramatic ways elsewhere. But particularly with this,

00:55:58.880 there is a radical, entitled, privileged African American class that is never told no, you know, 0.99

00:56:06.940 like they're never told no. So I am, I am, you know, my one voice, uh, you know, right there in

00:56:11.920 front of the camera saying, no, you know, you don't get to do this. This isn't in fact the way American 0.94

00:56:17.000 history played out and you're not entitled to stuff from me. Sorry. And I think

00:56:22.460 having us speak boldly and apologetically, unapologetically, um, with that voice really

00:56:30.540 helps. Even if I don't think, you know, I think our, our bad scenario looks a little more like

00:56:35.760 Brazil than South Africa, but, uh, and I've written about the Brazilianization of America,

00:56:41.780 but I think it could be worse than Brazil and Brazil is not such a great outcome. If you look at

00:56:45.940 what's going there right now, and it's certainly not, uh, the outcome that we fought at Bunker Hill,

00:56:50.740 uh, to get. And so we, we need to do better and demand more.

00:56:55.520 We've got creeper weirdo here for $5. Whether it's silly entertainment stuff or reparations, 0.77

00:57:00.540 it's all, uh, all has one thing in common. It's cultural revenge. I want, uh, I want it. So you

00:57:06.860 don't, uh, can't have it. And yeah, I mean, obviously there is a, a large amount of punishment

00:57:12.140 necessary, right? This is, this is basically the glue that holds the progressive coalition together

00:57:17.060 is, is grievance and punishment. We get to, we get to hurt people. We get to tell people they're

00:57:23.560 wrong. We get to lecture down to them. And if they, if they weren't able to do that, then I don't know

00:57:28.640 that the coalition would hold together at all, which sounds like you're putting a piece together

00:57:32.560 on possibly, but I do think that's a really central part of that coalition. And I, it's a,

00:57:37.120 it's a cult of power. If there wasn't power to be generated by, by gluing these groups together

00:57:43.200 due to their ability to claim grievance, then I don't think they would hold together at all.

00:57:47.060 Yeah. And jealousy and grievance. I mean, there's lots of, you know, that you can talk about the

00:57:50.480 seven deadly sins, but to me just jealousy in general is just, maybe I'm lucky that I just

00:57:55.040 don't really particularly suffer from this myself, but it's, it's sort of the deadliest and worst of

00:58:00.280 sins to me to, to not kind of be appreciative, almost whatever position you're in in life of

00:58:06.560 the things you have and the tremendous privilege of just being alive and to kind of,

00:58:12.180 you know, lash out at some other person or group for having something. And it's actually

00:58:16.760 something I've been thinking about with respect to my own book, which is, I mean, I could go on

00:58:20.960 with hundreds of pages of complaints here, but how do I not just make it about complaint? Much as

00:58:27.680 that complaint is, is totally justified. How do we, you know, have a more positive common vision of,

00:58:33.340 Hey, you know, we're all, we're all stuck in this country together, barring something

00:58:36.760 really dramatic, uh, happening. Uh, so, you know, how can we, um, you know, speak, speak truth to

00:58:43.620 power, which is really what we're doing. You know, the left is speaking power to truth. Um,

00:58:48.080 how can we, uh, to use their language, speak truth to power, but yet same time, uh, you know,

00:58:52.980 do it in a way that, that ultimately does extend an olive branch to, you know, those on the other side

00:58:58.540 of things and invite, uh, the reconciliation that we're going to need to function as a country going

00:59:03.760 forward. Yeah. It's really interesting. Cause I have a few, uh, kind of internet friends. I'm,

00:59:08.820 I'm in regular contact with in South Africa and, uh, and Ertz van Zell on, uh, uh, uh, conscious

00:59:15.200 caracal on Twitter, you know, he said to, uh, people multiple times and think it's really important.

00:59:19.780 He said, look, I know a lot of people are just, they get caught up in this grievance and they, and,

00:59:24.600 and rightly so that, you know, their communities are attacked and this kind of thing. But, you know,

00:59:29.520 South Africa is whether, no matter what you think about it, it's a, it's a multi-ethnic society and

00:59:35.060 it's going to be governed that way. And so you've got to find allies and you've got to build bridges

00:59:40.160 and you have to find a narrative that, uh, that works, uh, for everyone there, there is no, there's

00:59:46.800 no other option. And I think a lot of people need to hear that in America too, is, is you, you might

00:59:52.440 have a valid point about what's being done and the way your community is being targeted. But at the end

00:59:57.780 of the day, this, that there is a reality of the, of the, you know, political situation and, and the

01:00:04.280 body, the political body in the United States, and it's not going away. And so you have to figure out

01:00:09.140 a way to, like you said, create a, a narrative and a future that people can get behind, want to be on

01:00:15.800 board with. They want more than the, the destruction that's being preached to them by the other side.

01:00:22.480 That's right. And I think, I mean, ultimately we are in a Hobbesian war of all against all,

01:00:26.720 against say the 10% of the activist left. I mean, we have to beat them and crush them and there's

01:00:32.100 no way to sugarcoat it. And there's no way to kind of, I mean, you'll get some defectors from 0.86

01:00:36.660 their side. We'll figure out, eventually figure out what's up, but there's no way that we are going

01:00:40.100 to have a modus of vengeance to them. We just have to beat them. However, there's the 80% of folks who

01:00:45.360 are not in the 10% of activists on our side or the 10% on their side, um, who are in the middle,

01:00:51.440 who are just kind of trying to live their lives. And they're listening to the mainstream narrative.

01:00:56.480 A lot of them, not all of them, but a lot of them, and they're saying and doing some stupid 1.00

01:01:01.080 things. And maybe they even believe some of these stupid things, but if they're given a different 1.00

01:01:05.440 vision and somebody reaches out to them, they could say less stupid things and believe smarter things. 1.00

01:01:11.320 And you have to do that. You have to, you have, those guys are not the enemy, or at least they're not 0.96

01:01:15.080 the enemy unless you want to go back to the year zero and, and Pol Pot and kill, uh, 25% of the 0.80

01:01:21.240 people in your country, including anyone with glasses, uh, which is certainly not a political

01:01:24.800 program that I am signing up for. Um, I appreciate you not declaring my genocide here on camera.

01:01:30.680 There's no genocide of any type, uh, being, uh, uh, propounded during the, uh, the filming of this show.

01:01:36.660 The glasses, uh, great glasses genocide. Yeah. Yeah. Um, um, but, but, you know,

01:01:42.780 you have to realize that even some of these people, a lot of them, in fact, who are in various 0.96

01:01:47.740 ways, complicit, uh, in, uh, in being involved in a lot of bad and stupid stuff, we can bring them 0.99

01:01:54.680 around. I can save them, right. You know, I could save her, right. But that really is true in this 1.00

01:01:59.200 case. Um, and I think it's important that we don't start a political movement for both moral and

01:02:05.480 practical reasons that sort of declares the, you know, large, large number of people in America who still

01:02:11.040 don't quite get it as the enemy. We've got a smaller group. That's the enemy. We will take

01:02:15.500 care of them in due time. I hope, uh, we're, you know, I don't mean that in some sort of, uh,

01:02:20.200 you know, non-legal way, but just, you know, we're going to have to fight a political struggle

01:02:23.740 against them. But there's also a lot of people who are not on our side right now, who we need to have

01:02:28.700 a positive vision, uh, where we can bring them over. Yeah. You got to remember if you're adherent to,

01:02:33.880 uh, to elite theory, which many people who watch this are, then you know that that's what guides

01:02:39.040 things. And the vast majority of people are just going to reinforce the ruling ideology.

01:02:44.420 And so you don't need to, you know, like you said, uh, you know, somehow, you know, manhandle

01:02:50.180 every single person who disagrees with you. You just need to go ahead and convince a, the right

01:02:56.380 people and move the right levers. And most people will go ahead and say, this looks better than what

01:03:01.680 we were doing. And this works better than what we were doing. And actually we'll just do this instead.

01:03:05.280 You really don't have to convince every single, most people are actually just conservative in

01:03:10.960 the sense that they want the rules observed. They went equilibrium in the system. They want to be

01:03:15.580 able to have a life where they can have predictable outcomes that are positive for them and the people

01:03:20.180 around them. And if you offer that to them, they'll follow you. Yeah. The, the, the rest will

01:03:24.960 follow from there. Absolutely. Couldn't agree more. Uh, creeper weirdo again here for $2. So Trump

01:03:30.960 will be looked at like Reagan, you know, it's funny enough. I was, I was talking about this a

01:03:34.540 little bit, but, uh, I think there's a, a high likelihood of actually zombie Trump ism, uh, in

01:03:41.340 the same way that we have zombie Reagan is. I think there really is a high likelihood if, uh, if,

01:03:46.240 if things don't turn around of kind of the MAGA movement, uh, just being captured and becoming

01:03:50.820 a zombie Trump ism once, you know, Trumpism without Trump in that case.

01:03:55.060 Yeah. Well, and let me give, let me do my old guy thing here for a second. Is it got somebody

01:03:59.020 you just turned 50 this year? Because I do think among a lot of young, well-meaning sort

01:04:04.740 of more radical guys on our side, there's a temptation to hit Reagan. I grew up under

01:04:11.240 Reagan. Did Reagan have shortcomings? Absolutely. Did he have flaws? Absolutely. Did he not see

01:04:19.500 everything that was coming down the pike? Absolutely. He was beset with a certain set of political

01:04:26.740 problems that were not necessarily the same political problems that we have today.

01:04:31.540 And he handled those problems for the most part really well and moved a lot of people

01:04:38.340 in a very effective way. And that's why he was so popular. And that's why he was able to win

01:04:43.760 elections the way he did. And again, I mean, there are plenty of legitimate things that one can

01:04:48.460 criticize Reagan about, but, you know, indicative again, for, for a lot of folks who, for whom

01:04:54.000 pitchfork, pitchfork, pitchfork, Pat Buchanan is kind of the lodestar. There's a reason Buchanan

01:04:59.080 was Reagan's press secretary. Okay. And I'm sure if you were to ask Pat Buchanan about Reagan today,

01:05:04.180 he would be largely complimentary while certainly, you know, not kind of eliding over some of the ways

01:05:09.540 in which Reagan fell short. But, but in the same way that I think we're doing with this racial debate,

01:05:15.660 where we make a big mistake to judge people from the past with the standards we have today,

01:05:20.920 it's a big mistake to judge Ronald Reagan, you know, 40 plus years ago, facing a totally

01:05:27.460 different set of what I can assure you having lived then were very real problems that people

01:05:31.580 were worried about and say, well, you know, he didn't do all this other stuff that we care about

01:05:35.940 today. Yes, he didn't. And that's our job to do that. But, but this kind of, you know,

01:05:41.680 everybody who was before was horrible is it's, it's just kind of a little bit of a naive take in my

01:05:47.380 view. There's always, there's always a credit to be gained by kind of destroying the past

01:05:53.420 standards of something. And so, yeah, the, the people who take easy, I think there are legitimate

01:05:57.240 points of, of, of, of contest with kind of some of Reagan's choices, but obviously he, he could

01:06:04.860 have, he, no, no president's going to see into the future. If you, you know, what are you going to do?

01:06:09.120 You go back and you say, oh, well, Nixon was great. Well, Nixon made plenty of mistakes too,

01:06:12.360 as well. You know, he was wrong on, on, on a whole host of issues as well. You're, you go back,

01:06:17.200 you're always going to find some problem, some problem with each president because, you know,

01:06:20.960 they had to make decisions and you didn't. And so. Right. Well, and Reagan's political amnesty

01:06:25.060 of illegal aliens, it was horrible, but I can tell you it wasn't a central thing at the time

01:06:29.200 for the most part. And there wasn't like everybody, it wasn't like the whole right was saying

01:06:34.200 this was horrible and Reagan pushed it forward. Anyway, people somewhat naively, as it turned out,

01:06:39.220 I thought, oh, well, you know, this will solve the issue. And they, they probably took the left

01:06:44.380 at a much better fate than they should have. So it's a, you know, I, again, I just, I think it's,

01:06:49.760 it's a mistake to, to, to kind of be judgmental in that way. Although I, I am definitely not a fan

01:06:55.900 of zombie Reaganism in any way. And I do share your concerns that we're going to have a zombie

01:07:00.940 Trumpism at some point in the future. Yeah. My whole point was that is not, was that the,

01:07:05.420 once you've disembodied the movement from the leader that for forged the coalition,

01:07:09.680 it just becomes a political placeholder for whoever's ideology. You know, they did. Well,

01:07:15.580 this is what Ronald Reagan would do. Would it, you know, I don't know. Like, you know, and then

01:07:19.280 I think we're going to get that with Trump too, of, of very soon here, depending on how all the 0.90

01:07:24.600 shakes out, of course, a creeper weirdo here for $2. I don't think they have the nards to go after 1.00

01:07:29.240 Trump. Uh, you know, again, I, it'll be very interesting. Well, we, uh, I wouldn't bet against the

01:07:34.760 stupidity of the democratic party or the audacity of the democratic party at this point. Uh, those, 1.00

01:07:40.140 those seem like losing bets, not saying they're going to make the move, but, uh, uh, they've done

01:07:44.740 many things. I, I would never have expected them to, to be foolish enough to do. So, um, one more 0.99

01:07:51.140 thing, Adam E for $2, I assume reparations for non-indirgian groups is a no. Yes. I think that's 0.79

01:07:57.300 pretty safe to bet that, uh, you will not be seeing any reparations for anyone who is not in a, uh,

01:08:03.600 uh, who is not in a favored group there. Um, although I think, again, when you talk about

01:08:09.320 strategies, this is something I've thought of. I'm, I'm part of lots of groups from which I could,

01:08:13.560 uh, legitimately claim reparations, you know, for various, uh, you know, wrongs that the American

01:08:20.060 state has done to, to ancestors of mine or groups of mine. Now, this would be totally insane. I'm not

01:08:26.120 actually suggesting this as a legitimate political strategy, but as a sort of way of, of having fun and

01:08:32.260 poking fun at the regime, you know, it's sort of like these affirmative action bake sales, which 0.54

01:08:36.020 I actually think, uh, you know, the left always loses their marbles when we do it. And I think

01:08:39.940 it's actually a pretty effective political micro strategy. I think, yeah, I'd love reparations.

01:08:45.380 I'm, you know, I'm due when are, when is, uh, when is Al Sharpton going to start paying me my

01:08:49.380 reparations? Uh, you know, if done in the right way, that could actually be a fun tactic, even if

01:08:54.680 it's not, you know, politically where the country is going to go.

01:08:56.960 Mm-hmm. Uh, life of Brian here for 49, 499. Pedro Gonzalez really jumped the shark on this one.

01:09:03.360 Uh, so like, yeah, Pedro was definitely out there, uh, you know, kind of pushing against Trump

01:09:08.680 on this one. I'll say this. I, I, I mean, I like Pedro. He's been on the, uh, show multiple times,

01:09:14.740 obviously. Uh, I think he has a fair point that he is worried that a lot of people think that Trump

01:09:20.420 is as conservative as things can get. And that's that anchoring mechanism we talked about, right?

01:09:25.100 Trump is a blue dog Democrat. And so if you think that Donald Trump is the most radical right-wing

01:09:30.520 thing imaginable, then that means blue dog Democrat is as radical as right-wing politics

01:09:34.980 can get in America. And I think he has an understandable concern that like,

01:09:39.300 that's not how people should view our political situation. That said, I do think there is a

01:09:44.320 little hyperbole. I think it was a little overblown for a lot of people as far, you know, many,

01:09:49.900 as Jeremy said, a lot of hot takes in a moment that maybe we didn't need that many hot takes.

01:09:54.520 Yeah. And Pedro is, I mean, Pedro is a friend of mine. He's a tough guy. He's a fighter. Um,

01:09:59.620 I think some of the Trump folks pushed him in just the way that you said, and his reaction was to kind

01:10:05.800 of double down on maybe the exact opposite. Right. Um, and, uh, maybe not the strategy that,

01:10:12.580 that I would have personally pursued, but that's kind of why he's, you know, who he is. And just like

01:10:17.920 everybody else, I think you need to, to take the good things and the bad things and just sort of

01:10:22.300 sift them out for yourself. What makes sense for you. And, and Pedro has done a lot of the best and

01:10:27.100 toughest writing on this. I mean, certainly, I mean, he had a really, really edgy stuff on,

01:10:31.220 on MLK and some of his shortcomings. He went further than, than I would do by a lot in terms

01:10:36.640 of, of really critiquing him. But, but in terms of, of really blasting apart the Democrats completely

01:10:41.840 fake racial narrative, uh, he's been very good on that. And, you know, I'd rather focus on that 0.99

01:10:47.400 rather than like sniping about whether he's pro Trump or anti Trump, which is not going to

01:10:52.060 ultimately decide whether Donald J. Trump is in the white house in 2025.

01:10:56.120 Yeah. That position on MLK is certainly a far more, uh, is a far braver stance than,

01:11:01.560 than anyone's taking on either Trump or, or DeSantis at this moment. Uh, you, you can,

01:11:06.020 you can see similar, uh, points brought up by both myself and Ryan, uh, turn up seat. If you want to go

01:11:10.200 back and visit our conservative, uh, is MLK a conservative, uh, icon episode, you can find that in the

01:11:16.300 backlog. If you want to get, uh, all the, uh, he he's got the receipts. Ryan's very good at that.

01:11:21.200 So everyone can check that out. Uh, life of Brian here for 499 Brazil will be a paradise compared to

01:11:27.760 what's coming here. There's still respect, uh, competence. No white Brazilian is crying over the

01:11:33.040 favelas. Uh, I'm, I can't say that I'm super up on the kind of all the political goings on in Brazil.

01:11:39.640 I have a general understanding of the situation, but I couldn't say that I'm familiar enough that I would

01:11:44.660 then, uh, or then be able to make judgments on whether or not, you know, Brazil is a positive

01:11:49.580 example as to what would be coming in the United States. I do think that in the United States,

01:11:54.120 it's largely going to break down by States. The federalism of the United States is going to make

01:11:58.300 a big deal as a kind of the central government's ability to kind of push this stuff on each individual

01:12:03.460 state kind of falls apart. And so I think that's going to make a big difference in the United States.

01:12:08.180 I don't know how that plays out compared to Brazil, but.

01:12:10.600 Well, I do know a little bit about Brazil. My wife's parents actually grew up there,

01:12:14.680 although they were Americans growing up in Brazil and they were sort of there in the heyday of the

01:12:18.180 1950s and sixties. I wrote about this, uh, for a piece in IM 1776 called the Brazilianification of

01:12:24.380 America, I believe, uh, for those of you who want to check it out. Um, and I do think that you're right

01:12:29.320 and sort of implicitly what I think the, the commenter is getting at, which is important is, um,

01:12:35.540 there's this weird self-hatred that is probably not present among white Brazilians,

01:12:39.420 that is present in a significant number of white liberals in America. And again, uh, our friend

01:12:46.020 at the Manhattan Institute, Zach Goldberg has done a great job of really quantitatively demonstrating

01:12:51.320 just how crazy, I mean, how, how the attitudes of white liberals in America are just, they are

01:12:58.460 totally stand apart from every other group in terms of their own self-hatred, their outgroup 0.98

01:13:03.860 preferences, their level of mental illnesses. And, you know, I have a number of friends,

01:13:08.820 unfortunately, who fall under this group. So again, I don't say this with any joy,

01:13:12.460 but the data, you know, the, the, the data is not lying here. And it's really weird to me that

01:13:17.520 it has this level of, um, kind of racial and privileged pathos, uh, that we have. And,

01:13:26.560 and ultimately those folks are going to have to be politically marginalized for us to make any

01:13:30.500 progress at all as a country. Yep. I think that's absolutely the case. All right, guys. Well,

01:13:35.580 thank you so much for, uh, coming by. Jeremy is a great guest. Always a great time to talk to him,

01:13:40.640 make sure that you read his work. You can read his original piece over at the American mind.

01:13:45.260 And of course, if this is your first time here, please make sure that you are subscribing. Uh,

01:13:50.360 if you would like to go ahead and get these episodes in podcast form, of course,

01:13:54.400 you should subscribe to the Oren McIntyre podcast on all your favorite podcast platforms. You can go

01:14:00.360 ahead and make sure that you leave a review and a rating while you're there. That really helps out

01:14:04.340 with all the algorithm algorithms and everything. And I just want to say thank you to everybody who

01:14:09.820 was, uh, commenting. We got some really good questions, some really thought provoking ones.

01:14:13.880 Really appreciate it. You guys always kind of, uh, bring out some of the best parts of the show.

01:14:17.480 So really appreciate you guys stopping by and asking those. Thanks for coming everybody. And as always,

01:14:23.420 we'll talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - March 20, 2023

Reparations： A Prescription for Disaster ｜ Guest： Jeremy Carl ｜ 3⧸20⧸23

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