The Auron MacIntyre Show - May 22, 2024


Replacing the Deep State ｜ Guest： Andrew Kloster ｜ 5⧸22⧸24


Episode Stats

Length

47 minutes

Words per Minute

188.16277

Word Count

8,943

Sentence Count

420

Misogynist Sentences

6

Hate Speech Sentences

11


Summary

In this episode, I sit down with Andrew Kloster, who worked in the first Trump administration, and is now working to set up organizations that will help ensure that if Trump is re-elected, they are prepared to hit the ground running.


Transcript

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?
00:00:31.620 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.
00:00:33.360 I've got a great episode with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.
00:00:37.860 The number one question I get asked when people are talking about the possible next Trump term is,
00:00:45.340 has he learned his lesson?
00:00:46.960 Does he understand the importance of staff?
00:00:49.460 Does he understand the necessity of turning out the deep state,
00:00:52.180 replacing the deep state with capable people,
00:00:55.280 and being ready to fight the inevitable legal battles that will come,
00:00:58.640 as we're obviously seeing all the different legal attacks that are happening to Trump,
00:01:02.740 and have happened to his staff since his first administration.
00:01:07.180 And I think that there is a real effort.
00:01:09.660 I think there are people who are aware of that problem.
00:01:12.160 Today, I'm bringing you Andrew Kloster, who is one of those guys who worked on the first Trump camp,
00:01:18.000 or rather the first Trump administration,
00:01:19.960 and is very aware of these situations,
00:01:21.380 and is working to set up organizations that will help make sure that next time,
00:01:25.780 if Trump is elected, that they are prepared to hit the ground running.
00:01:29.260 And we want to talk about these different organizations that he's set up,
00:01:32.400 including the Legal Defense Fund,
00:01:34.000 that will help new administrative personnel protect themselves in the case of any kind of legal situation.
00:01:40.760 But before we get to all that, guys,
00:01:42.560 really quickly, I want to remind you that, of course, the Blaze has great merch.
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00:02:23.620 All right.
00:02:24.120 So, Andrew, we've talked before, and I think people understand,
00:02:30.240 like we've said in the previous episode we had,
00:02:32.900 that the biggest issue that it felt like the Trump administration faced
00:02:37.920 was the staffing issue, that in so many different places,
00:02:42.260 the president's agenda was blocked by people who were in the administration
00:02:46.780 or people who were left over from previous administrations who were hindering policy
00:02:50.800 weren't really on board with the vision of the administration trying to move the ball forward.
00:02:55.920 I know that you've recently started a legal defense fund,
00:02:58.960 and I really want to get into that,
00:03:00.720 but I think we first have to lay down kind of the groundwork.
00:03:04.420 What is the people around Trump,
00:03:07.900 the people who are involved in the idea of a new Republican administration,
00:03:11.820 what are they doing to address those issues that so many people are worried about,
00:03:15.320 that if Trump gets reelected,
00:03:16.700 it's just a reenactment of him fighting the deep state the entire time?
00:03:19.700 So, I've paid a lot of attention to personnel.
00:03:23.580 I was at the Heritage Foundation for years,
00:03:25.620 and I would write papers on the civil service and other things,
00:03:29.580 and, you know, it's a tough issue because,
00:03:33.060 like so many issues where the majority has strong opinions,
00:03:36.340 but there's no concentrated minority,
00:03:38.080 it's really tough to get policy enacted.
00:03:41.780 You know, if you want a gimme, if you want an oil or a tax cut,
00:03:44.860 you know, an oil rag or a tax cut,
00:03:46.560 there's a lot of money, and it's a concentrated issue.
00:03:48.680 But personnel and the civil service is so broad,
00:03:52.280 it's kind of impossible,
00:03:53.860 and everyone understands it's important now,
00:03:55.540 but it's kind of impossible to get your head around.
00:03:57.200 So, I'm just very pleased.
00:03:58.880 I think we're in a way better position than we were in 2016.
00:04:02.040 You know, I was at Heritage, you know, and I was surrounded.
00:04:04.480 I mean, the building was split in half.
00:04:05.920 It was Cruz people, and it was Rubio people, really.
00:04:08.100 And they just didn't understand kind of what was needed.
00:04:14.180 And they're, you know, and I've now gone back and looked at transition plans,
00:04:18.460 really going all the way back to Nixon,
00:04:20.740 and I've seen how people have done the staffing,
00:04:22.960 and I got a lot of inside information when I was in the White House
00:04:25.820 doing personnel under Trump.
00:04:27.900 And I guess, I just think, you know, it's 2024 now,
00:04:32.860 and it's sort of let a thousand flowers bloom, to quote Mao.
00:04:36.180 We've got lots of orgs that are great, staffed with great people.
00:04:40.560 You know, some are sideways on this issue or that issue
00:04:42.760 or this personality or that personality
00:04:44.420 or kind of what they're doing.
00:04:45.980 You know, no one's perfect,
00:04:47.060 but it's just there's just so much better stuff out there
00:04:49.960 that Trump will have and his team will have
00:04:52.860 really the universe to pick from.
00:04:54.960 Whereas in 2016, we didn't really have that many people to pick from.
00:04:58.540 You know, the lobbyists came in, McConnell came in,
00:05:01.120 Trump did the thank you tour,
00:05:02.540 and instead of staffing went and fundraised again,
00:05:05.340 you know, in late 2016.
00:05:08.440 So I think everyone understands the issue now,
00:05:10.640 and we've got a lot more work product done,
00:05:12.540 and we've got much better data on personalities as well,
00:05:15.160 and we have a much clearer idea of what the Trump agenda is.
00:05:18.760 Do you think that this shift has been felt in,
00:05:23.300 I know Heritage has kind of focused on the importance
00:05:27.060 of making sure you have, excuse me,
00:05:29.720 you have a competent bureaucracy moving in,
00:05:31.560 you have people who are ready to take over those jobs.
00:05:34.080 Do you feel like the, that the wider party,
00:05:37.360 not just some of these think tanks,
00:05:39.580 but do you feel like congressmen and others
00:05:41.660 who are involved in this process
00:05:42.820 are starting to understand that their battle
00:05:44.780 is not just at the legislative level,
00:05:46.640 it's not just going ahead and, you know,
00:05:48.920 winning an election or passing any specific agenda,
00:05:52.280 though that is critical,
00:05:53.600 but making sure that they are training up
00:05:55.520 a new leadership class
00:05:57.040 so that we're not just looking at this election
00:05:59.800 or looking at this particular staff,
00:06:02.460 though that, of course, that'll be critical,
00:06:04.120 but that there is a generational learning process,
00:06:08.240 there's a way to raise up leaders
00:06:09.960 where you're going to have those competent people
00:06:12.380 moving into these positions on a regular basis.
00:06:14.580 Do you think that understanding
00:06:15.460 is widening in the movement?
00:06:17.560 I definitely think the base gets it,
00:06:20.460 and I think a number of, you know,
00:06:23.440 members of Congress, senators,
00:06:24.880 and other folks get it.
00:06:25.820 Trump certainly gets it.
00:06:26.920 I think people get it now,
00:06:28.360 but look, when you poll Americans,
00:06:32.300 what's your opinion of Congress?
00:06:33.940 It's like really, really low.
00:06:35.640 But then when you poll their individual congressperson,
00:06:37.880 they're like, well, I like that guy.
00:06:38.940 And it's the same with hiring.
00:06:40.420 Everyone understands hiring is so important
00:06:42.120 and every decision matters,
00:06:43.680 but every single personnel decision you make
00:06:46.400 involves so many personalities.
00:06:48.620 And while I like, you know,
00:06:49.340 I know that guy's not great,
00:06:50.480 but I like him or I owe him a favor
00:06:52.240 or it's going to get me a favor over here or over there.
00:06:54.900 So the fact that we understand
00:06:57.600 the big picture problem
00:06:58.620 doesn't necessarily operationalize.
00:07:01.120 So there are a lot of things
00:07:02.560 that we need to see be done.
00:07:04.500 But I think that base interest
00:07:06.600 and the issue is really heartening.
00:07:08.200 Again, I'm writing papers in 2014, 2013
00:07:10.420 with James Shirk,
00:07:12.080 who, you know, I linked up again
00:07:13.720 with in the White House.
00:07:14.640 We worked on Schedule F and stuff
00:07:16.120 and implementation.
00:07:17.040 And then now he's at AFPI.
00:07:18.700 Great guy.
00:07:19.480 I wrote papers with the former general counsel.
00:07:22.000 And then I later was acting general counsel at OPM.
00:07:24.700 No one cared.
00:07:25.620 Like, you know, at Heritage,
00:07:26.540 I wrote enough that I could kind of
00:07:28.000 do these vanity projects
00:07:29.780 or things I was interested in.
00:07:31.940 But, you know,
00:07:32.880 you don't raise money off of that.
00:07:34.280 I think now, actually,
00:07:35.720 as soon as you can raise money
00:07:36.880 off of Drain the Swamp,
00:07:37.940 it actually becomes a real thing.
00:07:39.660 So we're seeing a lot of groups,
00:07:42.080 you know, Heritage is,
00:07:43.140 I think, the big bear in the room.
00:07:44.320 I've been very involved
00:07:45.120 and it's a lot of our former White House
00:07:46.560 and other teams.
00:07:47.220 They're great people.
00:07:48.420 I think Kevin's done great work fundraising
00:07:50.020 and boosting the project
00:07:51.520 and helping manage it.
00:07:52.840 So I'm very optimistic,
00:07:55.020 not because I think,
00:07:56.660 I'm a stoic about these things.
00:07:58.480 So it's not that everything is perfect.
00:08:00.980 It's that we're actually doing
00:08:02.940 objectively correct things,
00:08:04.640 which will give us
00:08:05.540 a better chance of success.
00:08:07.960 So let's dig a little bit
00:08:09.200 into those things
00:08:10.080 because I've seen the media
00:08:11.580 start to get worried.
00:08:12.600 And I think that's always a good sign
00:08:13.940 when you start getting
00:08:14.680 these different think pieces
00:08:16.640 from different outlets
00:08:18.180 like Politico and whatnot.
00:08:19.920 And it's the,
00:08:20.980 oh, the scary understanding
00:08:22.200 that Trump will turn out
00:08:23.540 the bureaucracy,
00:08:24.220 that he'll replace everybody
00:08:26.540 with his own people.
00:08:27.840 It's like, yeah, right.
00:08:28.880 What he should do,
00:08:29.840 like how you actually take control
00:08:31.380 of the executive branch there.
00:08:33.700 They're starting, you know,
00:08:34.660 to tell this horrible story
00:08:36.620 of a guy who goes in
00:08:37.760 and switches out
00:08:38.760 all of the people
00:08:39.380 who are dedicated
00:08:40.080 to their current progressive agenda
00:08:42.380 and actually replaces them
00:08:43.620 with somebody.
00:08:44.360 But what does that look like?
00:08:45.560 I know, obviously,
00:08:46.220 that you're trying
00:08:46.840 to identify talent
00:08:47.900 and raise up talent
00:08:49.120 inside organizations
00:08:50.400 attached to places
00:08:52.100 like the Heritage Foundation.
00:08:54.000 You talked a little bit
00:08:54.980 about Schedule F,
00:08:55.880 but what are some
00:08:56.360 of the mechanisms
00:08:57.000 or what are some
00:08:58.040 of the maybe particular
00:08:59.280 areas of focus
00:09:00.920 where you would work
00:09:02.000 to immediately try
00:09:02.920 to strip out
00:09:03.720 entrenched leftist ideology
00:09:06.540 and go ahead
00:09:07.340 and deploy some
00:09:08.940 of the people
00:09:09.260 who you think
00:09:09.840 would be able
00:09:10.260 to manage things
00:09:10.940 in Trump's interest,
00:09:12.760 his agenda?
00:09:13.740 Well, I think
00:09:14.180 with many projects,
00:09:15.740 there's a scoping problem
00:09:16.840 because you're building
00:09:17.520 multiple things at once
00:09:18.500 that implicate
00:09:19.200 multiple things at once.
00:09:20.840 And I think on this,
00:09:21.800 it's personnel
00:09:22.440 and it's policy.
00:09:23.460 And we understand
00:09:23.900 if you have bad personnel,
00:09:24.700 you can't get the policy,
00:09:25.680 but you also kind of need
00:09:26.660 to know the policy
00:09:27.360 to be able to identify
00:09:28.940 what personnel you want
00:09:30.180 because we're not liberals.
00:09:31.960 We don't believe
00:09:32.400 that every person's fungible
00:09:33.560 just with managerial,
00:09:34.700 technocratic know-how.
00:09:36.820 So I think,
00:09:37.820 and that's kind of,
00:09:39.040 I think,
00:09:39.460 sort of how Heritage operated.
00:09:41.300 You know,
00:09:41.560 first they did
00:09:42.480 sort of a somewhat
00:09:44.340 lowest common denominator
00:09:45.460 giant policy wish list
00:09:47.020 and then sort of worked
00:09:48.520 on a database of people.
00:09:51.100 They're continuing
00:09:51.460 to work on a database
00:09:52.280 of people.
00:09:53.000 And you also have
00:09:54.340 to identify
00:09:54.960 really what target
00:09:57.280 components or agencies
00:10:00.880 are very important.
00:10:03.360 You know,
00:10:03.520 I have instincts,
00:10:04.160 we all have instincts on that.
00:10:05.320 So you're kind of
00:10:06.320 building everything at once.
00:10:07.460 I think at the highest level
00:10:09.220 what you want is,
00:10:11.560 I mean,
00:10:11.840 I would say
00:10:12.180 the number one thing
00:10:13.060 that you want
00:10:13.800 government-wide
00:10:15.020 is an understanding
00:10:17.780 that personnel
00:10:19.160 is difficult
00:10:20.120 and will get you
00:10:20.880 a lot of blowback.
00:10:21.860 So you need to have
00:10:22.980 the willingness
00:10:23.460 to see it through.
00:10:25.000 I heard time and again
00:10:25.860 from agency heads,
00:10:26.700 I interviewed a bunch of them.
00:10:28.100 You know,
00:10:28.200 I did all these,
00:10:28.860 you know,
00:10:29.120 loyalty test interviews,
00:10:31.300 which that's not
00:10:31.940 what they were,
00:10:32.500 but I would get a lot
00:10:33.380 of data from agency heads
00:10:34.540 and it's time and again
00:10:35.760 you hear the refrain,
00:10:36.840 I can either spend my time
00:10:38.380 working on policy
00:10:39.600 or I can spend my time
00:10:41.200 cleaning house
00:10:42.960 and I can't do both.
00:10:44.100 And I think
00:10:44.540 that needs to be broken.
00:10:46.800 People need to understand
00:10:47.660 that they need
00:10:48.260 to clean house.
00:10:48.880 So we need,
00:10:49.380 we need barn burners,
00:10:50.820 people with backbone,
00:10:51.680 it needs to be government-wide
00:10:53.020 so that everyone
00:10:53.580 has air cover.
00:10:54.880 It needs to be thoughtful
00:10:56.100 and we also,
00:10:57.900 for most of the planning
00:10:58.780 that I do in politics,
00:10:59.900 you need to understand
00:11:00.920 two or three
00:11:01.960 or four steps down
00:11:02.940 and you also need
00:11:04.200 to understand
00:11:04.740 and plan for failure
00:11:06.220 because there will be failure.
00:11:07.580 Someone will get fired
00:11:08.360 who shouldn't get fired.
00:11:09.600 Someone will not get fired
00:11:10.500 who should get fired.
00:11:11.200 Someone will get hired
00:11:11.900 who shouldn't get hired.
00:11:12.820 There's going to be
00:11:13.300 media snafus
00:11:14.220 and you need to preload
00:11:16.960 because politicians
00:11:18.260 and political appointees
00:11:20.600 or politicians
00:11:21.320 to a large degree.
00:11:23.920 You know,
00:11:24.160 their instincts
00:11:24.820 are often really bad
00:11:26.720 off the cuff
00:11:28.140 and so they need
00:11:29.160 to have a battle plan
00:11:30.340 that kind of explains
00:11:31.400 to them the up
00:11:32.180 and the downs
00:11:32.720 and so when something happens
00:11:33.720 it's not a shock to them.
00:11:36.160 So, you know,
00:11:36.800 if they hire someone
00:11:37.520 who gets media blowback
00:11:39.340 for saying something
00:11:40.160 based on Twitter
00:11:40.960 eight years ago,
00:11:42.380 their immediate instinct
00:11:43.580 is not going to be
00:11:44.180 fire the person.
00:11:45.000 They will have a piece
00:11:45.620 of paper in front of them
00:11:46.360 that tells them,
00:11:47.960 you know,
00:11:48.300 call so-and-so
00:11:49.920 at the White House
00:11:50.580 or call so-and-so
00:11:51.560 or, you know,
00:11:52.640 convene a meeting about it
00:11:53.720 and just kind of discuss it
00:11:54.880 and don't respond,
00:11:56.320 wait and see,
00:11:57.420 wait two weeks
00:11:58.220 and then it'll blow over.
00:12:00.080 You know,
00:12:00.260 if they have that kind
00:12:01.020 of reasonable plan
00:12:02.360 then they are
00:12:02.980 on much better footing.
00:12:04.080 So I think
00:12:04.400 the number one thing
00:12:05.060 is just planning
00:12:06.320 to provide the training
00:12:07.380 and the thumos
00:12:08.180 to a lot of these people.
00:12:10.260 But then beyond that,
00:12:11.080 obviously all of what Heritage
00:12:12.240 and other groups
00:12:12.780 have done AFPI
00:12:14.480 or on group PPO,
00:12:15.940 there are a lot
00:12:16.380 of groups out there
00:12:17.020 that are,
00:12:17.940 you know,
00:12:18.300 every little group
00:12:18.880 now has a personnel database,
00:12:20.980 American Moment.
00:12:22.080 There are just so many groups
00:12:22.980 out there that have,
00:12:24.220 that make a serious effort
00:12:25.360 at identifying
00:12:26.420 and vetting
00:12:27.060 with a lot of different metrics
00:12:28.580 people
00:12:29.820 and then training them up.
00:12:30.960 So I think the movement
00:12:31.840 is in a much better place.
00:12:35.280 I know that a lot of people
00:12:36.660 have looked at
00:12:38.000 different organizations
00:12:39.320 inside the executive branch
00:12:41.360 and the kind of
00:12:42.000 the wider swamp
00:12:42.720 as we'd call it
00:12:43.540 and said,
00:12:44.460 okay,
00:12:44.820 maybe you can swap
00:12:45.840 in the base personnel.
00:12:47.200 You're obviously,
00:12:47.840 that's your main goal
00:12:48.580 is to go ahead
00:12:49.180 and replace
00:12:49.840 a lot of this bureaucracy
00:12:51.100 with people
00:12:51.700 who are going to be loyal
00:12:52.420 to Trump
00:12:52.800 are going to
00:12:53.880 faithfully execute
00:12:55.080 his vision
00:12:56.300 and the policy correctly.
00:12:58.500 But often we look
00:12:59.780 at some of these things,
00:13:00.620 some people look
00:13:01.180 at the FBI
00:13:01.660 and say this organization
00:13:03.200 is so corrupt
00:13:04.060 to its core.
00:13:05.000 Obviously,
00:13:05.340 I'm not going to ask you here
00:13:06.340 if you plan to shatter
00:13:07.100 the FBI.
00:13:07.900 But my question is,
00:13:09.780 have you guys
00:13:11.040 identified any organizations
00:13:12.760 or any structures
00:13:13.900 inside the executive branch
00:13:15.280 that are just unsalvable,
00:13:17.500 unsalvageable in your eyes
00:13:19.080 that that personnel
00:13:19.800 would not solve the problem?
00:13:21.440 And so a complete restructuring,
00:13:23.200 dismantling,
00:13:24.020 and recreation
00:13:24.720 of certain operations
00:13:26.600 might be necessary
00:13:27.900 if you're really going
00:13:28.820 to get the agenda done.
00:13:30.340 Yeah,
00:13:31.000 you know,
00:13:31.540 I'm not,
00:13:32.200 I'm more of a Vermillion
00:13:33.580 about the,
00:13:34.040 I'm not,
00:13:34.440 there's nothing
00:13:34.780 that I can really say
00:13:35.380 that I think
00:13:35.700 is structurally gone,
00:13:37.260 but I can certainly
00:13:38.240 identify
00:13:39.000 what I consider
00:13:40.860 to be choke points
00:13:41.840 and I'm speaking
00:13:42.520 for myself
00:13:43.100 because I don't think
00:13:44.420 any org has come out
00:13:45.420 with a hit list yet
00:13:46.340 of this is the priority list.
00:13:48.380 I think they should,
00:13:49.280 I think they will,
00:13:50.180 different groups.
00:13:52.320 And certainly that,
00:13:53.260 ultimately,
00:13:53.800 ultimately I should just say
00:13:54.720 all of this is up to Trump
00:13:56.120 as the,
00:13:56.860 you know,
00:13:57.560 presumptive Republican nominee
00:13:58.960 and presumptive
00:13:59.960 or hopefully next president.
00:14:01.780 He'll have to run the transition,
00:14:03.020 he'll have a transition lead,
00:14:04.020 they will identify
00:14:04.860 their landing,
00:14:05.460 you know,
00:14:06.300 they may not even call it
00:14:07.040 a landing team
00:14:07.660 because that's sort of
00:14:08.320 Bush era stuff,
00:14:09.180 but they'll have to identify
00:14:10.400 their transition plan.
00:14:11.420 So,
00:14:12.180 but I do have my own hit list
00:14:14.120 for different things
00:14:15.680 sort of based on,
00:14:16.880 you know,
00:14:18.160 the ease of getting
00:14:19.100 someone in there
00:14:19.880 and the authority
00:14:20.800 that they control
00:14:21.520 and the ability they have
00:14:22.620 with good people
00:14:23.340 to juice each other.
00:14:24.700 Because if you've got
00:14:25.380 one awesome agency head
00:14:27.400 at the top of
00:14:28.280 pick your agency,
00:14:29.600 DOJ,
00:14:30.060 let's say we have
00:14:30.500 the best person,
00:14:31.360 Jeff Sessions,
00:14:31.940 really a great person,
00:14:33.080 I think personally,
00:14:34.380 not in some ways
00:14:36.740 the best manager,
00:14:37.680 had surrounded himself
00:14:38.640 not with great people,
00:14:41.100 you know,
00:14:41.980 and we saw the results of that.
00:14:44.020 So you really need a team.
00:14:45.500 And the more people
00:14:46.340 you get in different choke points,
00:14:47.580 the better,
00:14:48.640 they can kind of force multiply.
00:14:50.020 So if you get a good guy
00:14:50.740 at personnel,
00:14:51.840 they can lean on someone
00:14:52.900 on regulations,
00:14:53.700 who can lean on someone
00:14:54.740 on legislation,
00:14:56.040 and the next thing you know
00:14:56.760 you get a snowball effect.
00:14:57.840 So I,
00:14:58.220 you know,
00:14:58.620 my personal view is
00:14:59.820 I think places like OIRA,
00:15:01.680 which is the Office
00:15:02.560 of Information
00:15:03.160 and Regulatory Affairs
00:15:04.200 at OMB,
00:15:05.160 they have government-wide,
00:15:06.340 they can hold up regulations
00:15:07.480 until the admin
00:15:09.060 wants them to go out.
00:15:10.400 So any secretary
00:15:11.640 can propose a rule
00:15:12.920 and put it out,
00:15:13.660 but it's got to get approved
00:15:14.720 by OIRA.
00:15:15.780 That's not precisely
00:15:17.620 mandated by law,
00:15:19.640 you know,
00:15:19.820 it's kind of wiggle room.
00:15:21.100 So this person
00:15:21.640 isn't really exercising authority,
00:15:23.280 they're just a hold up.
00:15:24.480 And so I like to look
00:15:25.500 at these hold up places
00:15:26.460 where you can exercise
00:15:27.440 political authority.
00:15:28.420 OIRA is one,
00:15:29.200 White House Counsel's another,
00:15:30.120 I think the Office
00:15:31.580 of Legal Counsel at DOJ
00:15:32.920 that reviews executive orders
00:15:34.340 and other stuff,
00:15:35.580 that's another one.
00:15:37.700 There are just a lot
00:15:38.320 of these governments,
00:15:38.860 OPM is certainly
00:15:39.660 a big, huge one
00:15:40.780 because they have,
00:15:42.120 they can delegate out
00:15:43.080 accepted service authority
00:15:44.640 and other hiring authorities
00:15:45.800 and they have,
00:15:46.820 they get reports and things.
00:15:47.900 There are a lot
00:15:48.360 of these choke points
00:15:49.460 where,
00:15:50.720 which I would personally
00:15:52.240 prioritize,
00:15:53.340 often because these people
00:15:54.820 aren't even Senate confirmed
00:15:55.820 or you can have someone acting,
00:15:57.200 their job is not
00:15:57.920 to put stuff out
00:15:58.600 but to hold stuff up
00:15:59.520 and holding stuff up
00:16:00.760 often is a bigger,
00:16:02.320 there's just as big a deal
00:16:03.360 as putting something out.
00:16:05.580 Yeah, so I'll just stop there.
00:16:07.280 No, I mean,
00:16:07.720 it's great that you guys
00:16:08.580 are identifying those choke points,
00:16:10.160 like you said,
00:16:10.600 those critical nodes
00:16:12.160 because even if you can't
00:16:13.100 reform the whole system
00:16:13.920 right away,
00:16:14.980 taking control of those,
00:16:16.480 being aware of how power flows
00:16:17.880 and where you can best
00:16:19.020 exert your influence
00:16:19.820 is critical.
00:16:20.780 And I would just say,
00:16:21.600 like on the FBI,
00:16:22.540 I think the FBI,
00:16:23.780 you know,
00:16:23.940 I always heard different people,
00:16:25.980 you know,
00:16:26.300 we've got lots of whistleblowers
00:16:29.420 at the FBI
00:16:30.080 and that's still the case.
00:16:30.960 There are a lot of great people
00:16:31.940 at the FBI,
00:16:32.760 particularly in the field offices,
00:16:34.000 but we've definitely seen a lot
00:16:35.240 come out of Congress
00:16:36.120 related to the weaponization
00:16:38.240 of the FBI,
00:16:39.500 you know,
00:16:39.660 the Foreign Interference Task Force,
00:16:41.100 the Washington Field Office,
00:16:42.140 a lot of these places
00:16:43.100 were definitely stacked.
00:16:44.980 And certainly,
00:16:45.460 I think the HR manager,
00:16:48.180 the operations and HR manager
00:16:50.320 at FBI
00:16:51.300 is particularly bad.
00:16:53.040 We kind of know that now,
00:16:53.960 retaliating against people
00:16:55.440 and things like that.
00:16:56.620 So that might be an easier fix,
00:16:59.700 but then there are
00:17:00.280 big, huge delegated authorities
00:17:01.740 to them
00:17:02.140 that you get almost no view on
00:17:04.680 that's really difficult.
00:17:05.400 Like if you're looking at
00:17:06.520 Section 702 FISA
00:17:08.440 or anything else classified,
00:17:09.800 I mean,
00:17:09.960 classification in the intel community
00:17:11.520 is really, really difficult
00:17:12.700 because, you know,
00:17:14.320 senators and members of Congress
00:17:15.720 and I mean,
00:17:16.240 I'm just looking at
00:17:16.980 Speaker Johnson
00:17:18.300 and how he was opposed
00:17:20.600 to warrantless wiretaps.
00:17:23.000 And then he says,
00:17:23.460 well, I suddenly became Speaker
00:17:25.000 and got some super
00:17:25.780 double-secret briefing.
00:17:27.440 It's like,
00:17:27.740 well, first of all,
00:17:28.580 why aren't other members
00:17:29.600 getting that super-secret briefing?
00:17:30.960 They're presumably
00:17:31.420 all on the same footing.
00:17:32.660 And second of all,
00:17:34.080 you know,
00:17:34.460 why, you know,
00:17:35.980 what could have possibly
00:17:36.820 changed your mind?
00:17:37.460 So I think there are
00:17:38.640 certainly black boxes too.
00:17:40.760 So some places
00:17:42.180 that look really bad,
00:17:43.460 it might just be
00:17:44.680 kind of a surface-level thing
00:17:46.340 that with a little bit
00:17:47.080 of attention and care
00:17:48.200 you can fix it.
00:17:49.860 But some of it may be,
00:17:51.000 some of it may
00:17:51.620 sort of be structural.
00:17:52.800 If they're delegated
00:17:53.740 this authority
00:17:54.280 to warrantlessly
00:17:55.040 wiretap on people,
00:17:56.680 we've already seen
00:17:57.360 they spy on their girlfriends.
00:17:59.360 You know,
00:17:59.500 they spy on,
00:18:00.240 you know,
00:18:01.180 donors to political campaigns
00:18:02.420 and things like that.
00:18:04.160 So I want to talk to you
00:18:05.580 a little bit
00:18:05.960 about the Catch-22
00:18:06.960 of expertise
00:18:08.560 because
00:18:09.240 in some sense,
00:18:11.000 obviously,
00:18:11.640 you have to have
00:18:12.780 people
00:18:13.500 with a degree
00:18:14.860 of competence
00:18:15.660 be familiar
00:18:16.760 with how power works
00:18:18.140 and how the procedure works
00:18:19.900 if you're going
00:18:20.480 to go ahead
00:18:20.940 and operate
00:18:21.440 the machine
00:18:21.980 in Washington.
00:18:23.280 But at the same time,
00:18:24.500 I think the justifiable
00:18:26.180 concern of a lot
00:18:27.260 of people
00:18:27.620 who listen to plans
00:18:28.620 like this
00:18:29.260 is, well,
00:18:30.040 everyone who knows
00:18:30.720 how to do this
00:18:31.360 has already bought
00:18:32.020 into the system.
00:18:33.040 They already
00:18:33.560 are invested in this.
00:18:35.340 They don't want
00:18:35.740 real change,
00:18:36.760 especially, you know,
00:18:37.480 you hear organizations
00:18:38.400 like Heritage
00:18:39.060 get thrown in there.
00:18:40.440 I know that Heritage
00:18:41.820 has had a pretty,
00:18:43.520 I've heard a lot
00:18:44.100 of good things
00:18:44.580 about the base shift
00:18:45.940 there,
00:18:46.640 but a lot of people
00:18:48.000 get concerned
00:18:48.660 about these legacy
00:18:49.360 organizations
00:18:49.980 and their influence.
00:18:51.400 What would you say
00:18:51.860 to people
00:18:52.160 who are concerned
00:18:52.920 about this tension
00:18:54.960 because they understand
00:18:56.020 the need
00:18:56.740 to have expertise,
00:18:58.160 but when you're
00:18:58.680 putting experts
00:18:59.480 who are already
00:19:00.200 part of the system
00:19:00.980 into these positions
00:19:01.900 through organizations
00:19:02.880 who are already
00:19:03.420 familiar with
00:19:04.260 the operations,
00:19:05.300 there's a high
00:19:06.220 degree of concern
00:19:07.180 that they will
00:19:07.700 simply continue
00:19:08.900 the same priorities
00:19:10.280 of previous
00:19:11.820 kind of containment
00:19:13.140 conservative
00:19:13.880 administrations
00:19:15.060 with just a new
00:19:16.120 code of MAGA paint?
00:19:18.620 That is such
00:19:19.220 a big question
00:19:19.880 and it's kind of
00:19:20.540 like what I've
00:19:21.300 sort of considered
00:19:21.960 to be my
00:19:24.300 professional life's
00:19:25.540 work and interest
00:19:26.200 has been expertise
00:19:27.280 sort of as an issue.
00:19:31.760 What do we mean
00:19:32.760 by expertise?
00:19:34.160 Expertise...
00:19:35.720 What's better
00:19:36.760 than a well-marbled
00:19:37.660 ribeye sizzling
00:19:38.560 on the barbecue?
00:19:39.760 A well-marbled
00:19:40.640 ribeye sizzling
00:19:41.540 on the barbecue
00:19:42.160 that was carefully
00:19:43.060 selected by an
00:19:44.000 Instacart shopper
00:19:44.920 and delivered
00:19:45.380 to your door.
00:19:46.480 A well-marbled
00:19:47.360 ribeye you ordered
00:19:48.320 without even
00:19:49.140 leaving the kiddie pool.
00:19:50.960 Whatever groceries
00:19:51.820 your summer calls for,
00:19:53.300 Instacart has you covered.
00:19:55.100 Download the
00:19:55.640 Instacart app
00:19:56.340 and enjoy
00:19:56.880 zero-dollar delivery
00:19:58.020 fees on your
00:19:58.660 first three orders.
00:19:59.980 Service fees,
00:20:00.640 exclusions,
00:20:01.220 and terms apply.
00:20:02.720 Instacart.
00:20:03.600 Groceries that
00:20:04.400 over-deliver.
00:20:05.160 And neutrality
00:20:07.200 are two words
00:20:08.220 that are kind of
00:20:08.720 used in tandem
00:20:09.440 in the law,
00:20:10.620 in the administrative
00:20:11.320 law,
00:20:12.040 in the case law,
00:20:14.080 justifying why
00:20:15.240 agencies get
00:20:16.020 deference,
00:20:16.760 justifying different
00:20:18.420 policies and things
00:20:19.380 like that.
00:20:20.320 And expertise
00:20:22.620 in this case,
00:20:24.220 when you're talking
00:20:24.800 about knowledge
00:20:25.740 of rules
00:20:27.340 and procedures,
00:20:29.320 that is,
00:20:30.020 you can call
00:20:32.420 it expertise.
00:20:34.060 I would call it,
00:20:35.500 and like,
00:20:35.760 what is the function
00:20:36.320 of a lawyer?
00:20:36.940 It's to be small c
00:20:37.800 conservative.
00:20:38.460 It's to understand
00:20:39.120 a culture, right?
00:20:40.320 And so all of these
00:20:40.980 fights over targeting
00:20:41.980 on bar licenses
00:20:43.940 is really about
00:20:44.840 using,
00:20:46.040 it's trying to
00:20:46.860 sort of artificially
00:20:47.740 or top-down
00:20:48.280 change the legal culture.
00:20:50.540 Expertise in this
00:20:51.340 context with
00:20:51.920 administrative rules
00:20:52.620 is understanding
00:20:53.540 the culture
00:20:54.900 because having been
00:20:55.860 at the tops of
00:20:56.500 agencies and run
00:20:57.540 these things through,
00:20:58.480 there are always
00:20:59.920 formal exceptions
00:21:02.800 to process.
00:21:03.820 Like,
00:21:03.940 it has to go
00:21:04.400 through this process
00:21:05.320 and you have to
00:21:06.680 wait this many days,
00:21:08.240 you know,
00:21:08.560 unless there's an
00:21:09.140 emergency,
00:21:09.700 for example.
00:21:10.220 So you see Biden
00:21:10.880 declaring a lot
00:21:11.480 of emergencies.
00:21:12.200 So when we say
00:21:13.220 expertise,
00:21:13.760 we really mean
00:21:14.180 people who have
00:21:14.700 been around the
00:21:15.180 block,
00:21:15.580 who have some
00:21:16.100 understanding
00:21:16.620 of the Washington
00:21:17.400 culture.
00:21:18.600 That doesn't
00:21:19.420 necessarily mean
00:21:20.180 that they're
00:21:20.460 of the culture.
00:21:21.560 Definitely people
00:21:22.280 go native,
00:21:22.940 and I think,
00:21:24.000 you know,
00:21:24.320 in the senior
00:21:24.700 executive service,
00:21:25.720 it's this,
00:21:26.160 you know,
00:21:28.940 70s era
00:21:29.720 reform of the
00:21:30.420 civil service
00:21:30.880 that creates
00:21:31.280 a top layer
00:21:32.040 with fewer
00:21:32.880 protections and
00:21:33.600 tries to move
00:21:34.060 them around and
00:21:34.660 say it's kind
00:21:35.160 of movable
00:21:36.100 management.
00:21:36.520 I think that
00:21:36.960 maybe could be
00:21:37.580 applied as a
00:21:39.100 practical matter
00:21:39.740 to politicals as
00:21:40.520 well.
00:21:40.680 They go through
00:21:41.020 rotations.
00:21:41.660 You don't get
00:21:41.980 stuck in one
00:21:42.620 place because you
00:21:43.720 can go native
00:21:44.280 and get captured.
00:21:45.020 You know,
00:21:45.160 people that work
00:21:45.660 at Treasury
00:21:46.120 want to go work
00:21:47.420 at Goldman Sachs,
00:21:48.340 right?
00:21:48.900 So you maybe put
00:21:50.200 them at Treasury
00:21:50.760 after they've done
00:21:52.680 a tour working
00:21:54.220 on immigration stuff
00:21:55.320 or, you know,
00:21:57.080 you rotate people
00:21:57.940 and you rotate
00:21:58.480 them fast enough
00:21:59.380 that, you know,
00:22:00.320 slow enough that
00:22:00.880 you can get
00:22:01.200 stuff out of
00:22:01.720 them and they
00:22:02.000 can learn but
00:22:02.560 fast enough that
00:22:03.180 they don't go
00:22:03.600 native.
00:22:04.040 So I guess I'll
00:22:05.100 just say there's
00:22:05.560 no silver bullet
00:22:06.380 in life.
00:22:07.180 You know,
00:22:07.380 you see that with
00:22:07.860 relationships too
00:22:08.720 and there's no
00:22:09.080 silver bullet here.
00:22:10.040 You've identified a
00:22:11.040 totally real problem
00:22:12.360 but it just requires
00:22:14.860 sustained attention
00:22:15.920 by the base.
00:22:18.880 And, you know,
00:22:19.360 there are lots of
00:22:20.060 political checks for
00:22:20.800 people to get to say
00:22:21.920 that the dial is not
00:22:22.700 set correctly.
00:22:23.280 Oh, they are still
00:22:24.160 too swampy, for
00:22:25.460 example.
00:22:26.000 Or, you know,
00:22:27.020 as we saw right
00:22:27.620 out the gate with
00:22:28.240 the first Trump
00:22:28.880 term, they tried
00:22:30.520 to run around
00:22:32.360 the Office of
00:22:32.920 Legal Counsel
00:22:33.400 with some of
00:22:33.760 the immigration
00:22:34.360 executive orders.
00:22:35.260 There's a lot
00:22:35.900 more to that story
00:22:36.720 but part of the
00:22:37.380 story certainly
00:22:37.920 was they just
00:22:39.600 tried to do an
00:22:40.120 end run around
00:22:40.760 this and lean
00:22:41.660 less on expertise
00:22:42.620 and more on
00:22:43.440 being based and
00:22:45.160 then they kind of
00:22:45.740 got burnt for that.
00:22:46.620 And I'm not at
00:22:47.180 all justifying what
00:22:48.060 ended up happening.
00:22:48.880 I'm just saying
00:22:49.300 like, you know,
00:22:50.520 the dial sometimes
00:22:51.260 gets set a little
00:22:52.040 bit inappropriately
00:22:52.940 and it just
00:22:54.000 takes time.
00:22:55.860 For guys who
00:22:56.440 maybe are outside
00:22:57.380 the system but
00:22:58.180 they think to
00:22:58.640 themselves, hey,
00:22:59.360 I'm young,
00:22:59.860 energetic, I'm
00:23:00.640 passionate about
00:23:01.260 this, I'm based,
00:23:03.020 I have some level
00:23:03.800 of expertise,
00:23:04.940 where would you
00:23:05.620 suggest that they
00:23:06.340 try to plug in
00:23:07.200 so they can
00:23:07.900 possibly be
00:23:09.020 available, you
00:23:10.000 know, offer
00:23:10.340 their skills if
00:23:11.220 there's an
00:23:11.640 opportunity?
00:23:12.720 I still, I feel
00:23:14.060 like I'm sort of
00:23:14.580 shilling for
00:23:15.080 heritage, which
00:23:15.800 no, it's just, I
00:23:16.700 do think that the
00:23:17.300 best thing going
00:23:18.000 right now in
00:23:18.720 terms of that
00:23:19.140 kind of level of
00:23:20.400 that low of a
00:23:21.780 barrier of entry
00:23:22.500 with something
00:23:22.920 that you know
00:23:23.400 you're going to
00:23:23.700 get eyes on
00:23:24.240 you at some
00:23:24.820 point is probably
00:23:25.740 their Project
00:23:26.280 2025 database.
00:23:29.640 You know, you
00:23:29.820 can go online, you
00:23:30.600 can apply, you
00:23:31.340 can upload a
00:23:31.820 resume and stuff,
00:23:32.540 they've got really
00:23:33.380 good data security
00:23:34.240 and all of that
00:23:35.280 and, you know,
00:23:38.140 I've seen it, I've
00:23:39.140 been in it, I can,
00:23:40.520 you know, that's a
00:23:42.600 good tool and lots
00:23:44.160 of other orgs have
00:23:44.860 that too, like I
00:23:45.460 said, American
00:23:45.860 Moment, everyone has
00:23:46.620 their own
00:23:46.920 proprietary, so if
00:23:48.460 you're very
00:23:48.880 interested in one
00:23:49.620 particular area of
00:23:50.840 the law, you're
00:23:51.940 kind of asking the
00:23:52.420 question, like, how
00:23:52.940 do you get plugged
00:23:53.600 in?
00:23:55.600 At the end of the
00:23:56.400 day, it's the same
00:23:57.640 thing for everybody,
00:23:58.600 it's connections are
00:23:59.620 ultimately going to do
00:24:00.400 it, but you can
00:24:03.520 volunteer on the
00:24:04.160 campaign, I think
00:24:05.100 that's always a
00:24:05.660 great leg up, you
00:24:07.480 can volunteer with
00:24:08.240 your, you know,
00:24:08.840 local party, that's
00:24:10.480 always a great leg
00:24:11.180 up, you can work on
00:24:13.440 an issue and get
00:24:14.320 connected to people,
00:24:15.560 there are all sorts
00:24:16.160 of different orgs out
00:24:17.040 there that do
00:24:17.600 different policy work,
00:24:18.480 if you're, you
00:24:19.100 know, it can even
00:24:20.100 be one that's not
00:24:20.840 totally, you know, in
00:24:22.540 Trump orbit, like the
00:24:23.220 Manhattan Institute or
00:24:23.960 whatever, there are
00:24:24.560 lots of places where
00:24:25.520 you can just, like,
00:24:26.600 throw an article, you
00:24:28.520 know, at someone and
00:24:30.580 get a name for
00:24:31.280 yourself and start
00:24:31.800 working an issue and
00:24:32.840 be, and, and from the
00:24:35.140 right direction and get
00:24:36.720 a name for yourself.
00:24:37.680 Obviously, be careful
00:24:38.560 about that, you know,
00:24:39.640 paper trails and all
00:24:40.420 that, but, you know,
00:24:43.100 there are just so many,
00:24:43.820 so many ways to enter,
00:24:45.340 and obviously, I think if
00:24:47.620 Trump wins in
00:24:48.920 November, there are
00:24:50.700 going to be, there are
00:24:52.460 going to be numerous
00:24:53.020 entry points for, for
00:24:54.700 anybody, and you'll see
00:24:55.680 it, you'll see it
00:24:56.240 online, and a lot of
00:24:57.660 it's going to be fake,
00:24:58.540 you'll, you know, you'll
00:24:59.420 have some hits and
00:25:00.040 misses, it's just like
00:25:01.280 getting any job, you
00:25:03.820 know, reach out to
00:25:04.680 people that you know,
00:25:05.840 who might be connected,
00:25:07.360 strategize, but it's
00:25:08.500 just, it's hard to give
00:25:09.220 one answer to them.
00:25:11.200 All right, so let's
00:25:11.760 transition to the new
00:25:13.680 development that you've
00:25:15.440 helped to found.
00:25:16.160 Now, a lot of people
00:25:17.380 obviously are watching
00:25:18.860 what's happening with
00:25:19.560 Trump, what has
00:25:20.440 happened to many
00:25:21.440 people who have
00:25:21.960 been part of his
00:25:22.560 staff, part of his
00:25:23.420 administration.
00:25:24.360 It's very clear that
00:25:25.540 lawfare are more
00:25:29.080 common use, or far
00:25:31.820 more common weapon
00:25:32.580 that is going to be
00:25:34.140 leveled at people on
00:25:35.600 the right.
00:25:35.960 Anybody who joins the
00:25:36.960 Trump administration
00:25:37.960 could possibly come
00:25:40.120 under legal fire.
00:25:41.440 There's constantly this
00:25:42.660 effort to basically
00:25:43.800 terrify people out of
00:25:45.220 civil service, because
00:25:46.520 yeah, okay, maybe if
00:25:48.060 you're somebody who
00:25:48.940 spent a lot of years
00:25:50.300 lobbying, or you're
00:25:51.940 a distinguished general
00:25:52.880 or something, you can
00:25:54.040 stand up to this, you've
00:25:55.060 got the money, you've
00:25:55.780 got the reputation, you
00:25:56.980 can kind of stand in
00:25:57.980 the breach, but even
00:25:58.620 for those people, it's
00:25:59.900 difficult.
00:26:00.440 It's really terrifying
00:26:01.340 for kind of average
00:26:02.460 people who are just
00:26:03.400 pulling a government
00:26:05.040 service type of salary
00:26:07.460 and don't really have
00:26:08.520 that kind of
00:26:09.540 independence, that level
00:26:10.940 of security.
00:26:11.860 So what is the plan
00:26:14.360 going forward for
00:26:15.220 that?
00:26:15.400 I know you have
00:26:15.980 started, helped to
00:26:17.320 start a new fund to
00:26:18.980 kind of fight back
00:26:20.340 against this constant
00:26:21.460 attempt of the left to
00:26:22.540 use lawfare to scare
00:26:23.500 people out of serving in
00:26:25.100 a Trump administration.
00:26:26.640 So I'll just say that
00:26:28.180 the org that I co-
00:26:31.700 founded, you know, did
00:26:33.420 the IRS application, all
00:26:34.500 that, it's a couple
00:26:34.940 years old now, actually.
00:26:36.000 So it's not new, it's
00:26:36.800 just newly sort of
00:26:38.300 getting out there.
00:26:39.120 Um, we've already
00:26:40.720 run, you know, seven
00:26:43.020 figures of, of donations
00:26:44.880 for people, you know,
00:26:46.200 vetted attorneys and
00:26:47.040 things like that.
00:26:48.280 Um, it's the org is
00:26:49.640 personnel policy ops dot
00:26:51.360 org.
00:26:52.080 So the, you know, takes
00:26:53.380 the PPO from the
00:26:55.480 White House, uh, sort of
00:26:57.360 acronym.
00:26:58.460 And, uh, basically the
00:27:00.220 org was set up to do
00:27:01.160 programming and policy for,
00:27:03.540 uh, future conservative
00:27:05.040 America first, uh,
00:27:07.700 prospective civil
00:27:08.580 servants, right.
00:27:09.660 And really we've looked
00:27:11.540 at it from an economic
00:27:12.400 perspective and what the
00:27:13.480 left does is totally
00:27:14.300 rational.
00:27:14.980 I mean, they raise the
00:27:15.960 costs on us even getting
00:27:18.040 to the table, right.
00:27:19.620 And they lower the costs
00:27:21.080 for their people.
00:27:21.760 So I remember I was so
00:27:23.000 frustrated where there
00:27:24.260 was a, you know, graduate
00:27:25.720 of my law school and then
00:27:27.340 another woman who firebombed
00:27:30.220 a, um, you know, a cop
00:27:32.540 car during the summer of
00:27:33.640 love, uh, uh, and then
00:27:36.060 got eventually like only
00:27:37.220 after a long public
00:27:39.600 outcry, they got
00:27:40.280 prosecuted, but then
00:27:41.240 they got a sweetheart
00:27:41.800 deal and they're all out
00:27:42.740 and blah, blah, blah,
00:27:43.200 blah, blah, blah, blah.
00:27:44.020 And they were on
00:27:45.120 Skadden fellowships and
00:27:46.200 they were getting free
00:27:46.860 legal counsel.
00:27:48.060 You know what I mean?
00:27:48.580 Like the left protects
00:27:49.760 their own, even when
00:27:50.560 they're literally throwing
00:27:51.440 Molotov cocktails to
00:27:53.280 police cars that could
00:27:54.620 light someone on fire and
00:27:56.440 they could die.
00:27:57.220 Okay.
00:27:57.620 This is a thousand times
00:27:59.700 more violent than anything
00:28:00.560 that happened to chase
00:28:01.680 sex.
00:28:01.920 Okay.
00:28:02.660 Um, and they're
00:28:04.140 defending these people
00:28:04.940 like it's some kind of
00:28:05.640 racial thing or there's
00:28:06.620 some kind of justification
00:28:07.500 for what they were
00:28:08.300 doing.
00:28:08.560 No, no, no, no, no.
00:28:09.320 And the left protects
00:28:10.060 them.
00:28:10.280 We don't protect our own.
00:28:11.600 We don't have an ACLU.
00:28:13.400 Um, you know, Trump and
00:28:14.840 a lot of these people,
00:28:15.600 they have single donors
00:28:16.820 that will help them.
00:28:18.820 Um, and, uh, but
00:28:20.820 there's no pro there was
00:28:21.780 no programmatic class
00:28:23.920 wide, um, legal defense
00:28:26.340 fund.
00:28:27.980 So that's why we set this
00:28:29.140 up.
00:28:29.380 And so it's really just
00:28:30.360 for any sort of
00:28:31.180 conservative America
00:28:31.940 first Patriot who's sort
00:28:33.520 of targeted for acts
00:28:35.660 that they preserve, you
00:28:36.600 know, uh, do in the
00:28:38.120 service of their, of
00:28:39.740 their public, uh, office.
00:28:42.220 Um, and that we believe
00:28:43.920 are unjustifiably,
00:28:45.160 unjustifiably targeted.
00:28:46.380 So it's people that we've
00:28:47.140 supported like Peter
00:28:47.780 Navarro or, or, uh, or
00:28:50.200 Mark Meadows or, uh, uh,
00:28:52.820 John Eastman, you know,
00:28:53.860 there's a whole litany.
00:28:54.580 You can find them on the
00:28:55.140 website and in public.
00:28:56.340 Um, but it's, it's
00:28:57.300 really people like that
00:28:58.200 and it's a C3, so it
00:28:59.240 is tax deductible.
00:29:01.160 Um, and that was a
00:29:02.120 part of reason why we
00:29:02.920 didn't, you know, we
00:29:03.780 weren't really public is
00:29:04.800 because you want to,
00:29:06.280 it's a, it's a, you
00:29:07.520 know, you can't set up
00:29:08.300 a C3, which is the C3
00:29:10.520 to protect, you know,
00:29:12.200 or on McIntyre and
00:29:14.140 then expect to get tax
00:29:15.180 exempt status because
00:29:16.060 no, that's a class of
00:29:17.020 one.
00:29:17.320 That's one person.
00:29:18.060 That's not a public
00:29:18.680 interest.
00:29:19.020 So we wanted it to be
00:29:19.820 public interest, but you
00:29:21.120 kind of got to get
00:29:21.660 started before you can
00:29:22.780 like demonstrate really
00:29:24.020 that, uh, that it's
00:29:25.460 actually a class and not
00:29:26.800 just one or two
00:29:27.440 people.
00:29:27.780 So we do have a
00:29:28.400 class now.
00:29:29.180 We've got almost no
00:29:30.080 overhead.
00:29:30.500 I'm not taking a salary.
00:29:31.440 You know, the, our
00:29:32.060 president's not taking a
00:29:32.880 salary.
00:29:34.000 Um, you know, the money
00:29:35.200 goes to people.
00:29:36.540 We've done a lot of, a
00:29:37.400 lot of money, a lot of
00:29:38.640 money, and we hope to
00:29:40.360 continue to grow.
00:29:41.120 So we hope that it's not
00:29:42.000 just a Trump thing.
00:29:42.720 It's not just an
00:29:43.300 election 2020 thing, but
00:29:45.100 that it's an institutional
00:29:46.020 thing that for years to
00:29:47.340 come can provide at least
00:29:49.200 some source of comfort to
00:29:50.520 these people.
00:29:51.580 Um, you know, whether
00:29:52.640 they're, you know, my
00:29:53.900 grandma, you know,
00:29:54.880 volunteering at the Cook
00:29:55.820 County Republican, you
00:29:57.140 know, God bless her for
00:29:59.020 however many years, you
00:30:00.280 know, these poll workers
00:30:01.100 are being targeted in some
00:30:02.160 cases, whether it's in
00:30:03.200 Michigan or, or Georgia.
00:30:05.920 So really it's just a hope
00:30:07.240 to kind of ease that fear,
00:30:10.380 put up the flag because
00:30:11.760 putting up the flag is so
00:30:12.680 important.
00:30:13.100 It's not perfect.
00:30:14.040 You know, it's not going to
00:30:14.760 be able to support
00:30:15.240 everybody.
00:30:15.680 I mean, what we could do
00:30:17.100 with, you know, another
00:30:18.020 hundred million is, you
00:30:19.400 know, how much do you need
00:30:20.180 to like fully make
00:30:20.960 everybody whole, right?
00:30:21.880 So it's not, and you
00:30:23.240 know, and it's, and it's
00:30:23.960 slower because a lot of
00:30:25.720 people, you get a subpoena
00:30:26.920 or something.
00:30:27.360 I've represented people
00:30:28.420 who've gotten J6 subpoenas
00:30:29.620 or whatever, Georgia
00:30:30.920 subpoenas, et cetera.
00:30:32.240 And, um, you know, it's
00:30:33.980 scary.
00:30:34.440 You got to pay out money.
00:30:35.320 You don't want to go
00:30:35.820 public.
00:30:36.340 You're not even thinking
00:30:37.160 about the cost yet.
00:30:38.820 You're like, I just got to
00:30:39.460 protect myself.
00:30:40.860 Um, so yeah, it's not,
00:30:42.700 it's nothing, nothing is
00:30:43.640 perfect, but I guess it's
00:30:44.820 just, it's, it's largely
00:30:46.040 a signaling, it's not
00:30:46.960 largely a signaling advice,
00:30:47.980 but part of it is that it
00:30:48.820 signals to people, you
00:30:50.220 know, we've got your back,
00:30:51.140 we've got your back.
00:30:51.820 And I think we need to
00:30:52.640 tell our people that.
00:30:54.160 And I think your audience
00:30:55.860 should also understand it's
00:30:57.200 not just, you know,
00:30:58.700 obviously the org and these
00:30:59.840 people could use support,
00:31:01.180 but in the future, when
00:31:03.560 Trump is reelected and he
00:31:05.520 starts putting people in
00:31:06.860 and the people get blown up
00:31:08.480 in Newsweek or MSNBC or
00:31:11.720 CNN, your first instinct
00:31:14.480 should not be to take
00:31:16.380 what they say is true or
00:31:17.600 if they're indicted or if
00:31:18.580 they're subpoenaed, your
00:31:19.920 first instinct should not
00:31:21.000 be to take what they say
00:31:22.020 is true and start
00:31:23.020 shunning that person or
00:31:25.480 taking what they say less
00:31:26.700 seriously.
00:31:27.540 Your first instinct should
00:31:28.420 be, you know, who
00:31:30.020 benefits, why are they
00:31:30.980 being targeted?
00:31:31.840 Like who's, who's got an
00:31:33.260 interest in targeting this
00:31:34.380 person?
00:31:35.460 Um, start from that
00:31:37.480 position.
00:31:37.840 I think we need a real
00:31:38.760 attitude shift among the
00:31:39.800 base just to be stronger.
00:31:40.720 And the more we give
00:31:41.940 support to these people,
00:31:43.080 the more personnel there
00:31:44.560 are available to Trump or
00:31:46.080 any future Republican
00:31:46.900 administration or
00:31:47.640 conservative administration.
00:31:49.180 Um, yeah, the left is
00:31:50.580 definitely trying to drain
00:31:51.680 the field, the farm team.
00:31:53.620 They're trying to drain the
00:31:54.540 farm team on the right.
00:31:55.840 That's the lawyer stuff.
00:31:57.360 That's the targeting of
00:31:58.340 election workers.
00:31:59.060 They don't even want, I
00:32:00.220 mean, why did Youngkin win
00:32:01.140 in Virginia?
00:32:02.220 Not because he had the
00:32:03.320 smartest people, but because
00:32:04.300 he had a thousand grandmas
00:32:05.820 that volunteered to like,
00:32:07.240 they didn't even know what to
00:32:08.160 do, but their mere presence
00:32:09.360 would just would deter
00:32:10.300 conduct.
00:32:11.380 Um, and you know, they
00:32:12.540 don't want those eyes on
00:32:13.780 and they want to deter and
00:32:15.100 they want to scare grandma
00:32:15.900 and make her stay home.
00:32:17.020 And so that's why we started
00:32:18.220 the org to let grandma know
00:32:19.960 someone's there.
00:32:21.140 Yeah, I think it is really
00:32:22.760 critical for people to have
00:32:23.780 that mentality shift that
00:32:24.940 you're talking about where,
00:32:26.560 and I think we're seeing it
00:32:27.460 more and more, which is a
00:32:28.480 good sign that cancellations,
00:32:30.200 you know, bounce off.
00:32:31.460 They don't work.
00:32:32.080 People don't assume the
00:32:33.260 worst.
00:32:33.560 They don't assume the
00:32:34.180 accusations.
00:32:35.140 They know that someone is out
00:32:36.640 to get these people that
00:32:37.620 smear tactics are there for
00:32:38.820 a reason.
00:32:39.620 You know, every once in a
00:32:40.260 while, obviously people do
00:32:41.440 make mistakes.
00:32:42.240 There is wrongdoing, but
00:32:43.740 ultimately having that
00:32:44.880 attitude of first, we
00:32:46.060 defend our friend.
00:32:47.300 First, we rally the
00:32:47.920 troops.
00:32:48.520 First, we make sure that
00:32:49.700 this person's okay.
00:32:50.820 And then if discipline needs
00:32:52.460 to come because something
00:32:53.260 wrong happened, well, that
00:32:54.140 happens, you know,
00:32:55.120 separately.
00:32:55.480 But the first reaction is
00:32:56.900 not to throw somebody out
00:32:57.700 of the bus, try to appease
00:32:58.740 the media, try to appease
00:33:00.060 the mob, but instead to
00:33:01.300 realize that most of these
00:33:02.600 attacks are coming simply
00:33:03.960 because the person is
00:33:05.720 standing next to the wrong
00:33:06.780 guy and that really is
00:33:08.300 enough for them to go
00:33:09.620 ahead and attack them.
00:33:10.860 What do you think about
00:33:11.680 this general mentality
00:33:13.000 shift, though?
00:33:14.040 Do you think that this
00:33:15.420 constant attack, personal
00:33:17.540 assault, lawfare, do you
00:33:19.820 think that this relentless
00:33:21.500 attack by the left on
00:33:22.840 people who would join the
00:33:23.700 Trump administration, who
00:33:24.680 would dare to be a part
00:33:25.900 of it, do you think that's
00:33:26.580 just a feature of public
00:33:28.200 service now?
00:33:29.220 Do you think that there's
00:33:29.900 anything that's going to
00:33:30.580 reign this in?
00:33:31.620 And if it's here to stay,
00:33:33.740 there's the right need to
00:33:34.380 begin engaging in this
00:33:35.460 because obviously if
00:33:36.620 you're not doing a tit
00:33:37.340 for tat, if you're
00:33:38.160 sitting there and it's
00:33:39.300 always, hey, one side,
00:33:41.260 you know, always pays the
00:33:42.360 price when they're in
00:33:43.600 power and then the other
00:33:44.320 side gets away with
00:33:45.060 murder when they're in
00:33:46.280 power, then you realize
00:33:47.860 that they're never going
00:33:48.900 to stop doing this,
00:33:49.680 right?
00:33:50.260 Yeah.
00:33:50.680 So I've had hundreds of
00:33:52.900 interns now and I always
00:33:54.080 recommend Robert Axelrod's
00:33:55.680 Evolution of Cooperation,
00:33:57.380 which is like a really
00:33:58.040 great intro to game
00:33:58.940 theory.
00:33:59.940 And it basically and quite
00:34:01.400 frankly, you know, any
00:34:02.700 it's helpful for coding
00:34:04.640 too.
00:34:04.960 It's just a great book.
00:34:06.200 Anybody can understand
00:34:06.960 it.
00:34:07.200 And I would say the
00:34:07.740 fundamental point is that
00:34:09.600 the foundation of all
00:34:10.880 cooperation as an economic
00:34:13.360 matter is tit for tat.
00:34:15.400 So you have to have repeat
00:34:17.160 interactions with the
00:34:17.940 person because if you never
00:34:18.920 see him again, you can
00:34:19.700 steal from him.
00:34:20.860 You can steal from him.
00:34:22.220 And the police is there
00:34:23.720 to the police are there to
00:34:26.180 basically be that repeat
00:34:27.600 interaction on behalf of the
00:34:29.140 public.
00:34:29.400 Like you may not interact
00:34:30.760 with the guy that you just
00:34:31.480 stole from ever again, but you
00:34:32.500 but the police are still
00:34:33.280 there.
00:34:33.500 They might catch you.
00:34:34.680 So you've got to fight
00:34:36.540 back.
00:34:37.000 If you let someone get away
00:34:37.840 with something, they will
00:34:38.900 continue to do it.
00:34:39.660 So the dog does have to be
00:34:40.740 trained.
00:34:41.660 I think that is applicable
00:34:42.800 to politics.
00:34:43.640 I did, you know, the
00:34:44.460 Courage Under Fire Legal
00:34:45.600 Defense Fund as a part of
00:34:47.280 the PPO org is the, you
00:34:49.620 know, the major project for
00:34:51.100 sure, certainly by funds.
00:34:52.480 It's not the only project.
00:34:53.740 We do have other projects,
00:34:55.280 you know, vetting career
00:34:56.780 civil servants that are
00:34:57.700 positive and some that are
00:34:58.680 negative, too.
00:34:59.340 So we definitely are aware
00:35:01.180 and in that space.
00:35:02.500 I definitely talk all the
00:35:04.060 time with people who do
00:35:05.220 these sorts of campaigns
00:35:06.800 against people.
00:35:07.760 I mean, you see, you do see
00:35:09.420 real bad acts like that,
00:35:11.220 you know, that guy who was
00:35:14.040 stealing all the luggage,
00:35:15.140 right, in the Biden.
00:35:16.360 I mean, like he deserved to
00:35:17.340 be, he deserved to be
00:35:18.120 targeted.
00:35:18.580 And the fact that he just
00:35:19.220 looked so ridiculous made it
00:35:22.020 a great story, too.
00:35:22.960 So, yeah, I do think we should
00:35:26.000 be continuing to do that.
00:35:27.060 But I will say, on the other
00:35:28.000 hand, there is, it should not
00:35:31.560 always be open season.
00:35:32.760 Like, I do aspire to a culture
00:35:34.780 of understanding what matters.
00:35:37.300 I'm pretty connected to the
00:35:38.480 euro right.
00:35:39.080 For example, I talk with a lot
00:35:40.120 of people in French and other
00:35:41.400 politics, and this Trump stuff
00:35:43.860 in New York has them, like,
00:35:45.520 pulling their hair out.
00:35:46.920 They're like, okay, so, and
00:35:49.580 they're assuming the worst.
00:35:51.060 Like, assume it's all true.
00:35:52.340 They're like, they're like,
00:35:53.700 okay, so why is this in the
00:35:55.640 media?
00:35:56.200 You know, it's like an affair,
00:35:57.780 allegedly, of a politician.
00:35:59.100 Like, this is stupid.
00:36:00.520 So I do think there is some, we
00:36:03.420 do need to kind of focus on the
00:36:04.720 core function of public service.
00:36:07.480 We don't really have a theory of
00:36:09.440 what it means to be public
00:36:10.800 spirited, particularly on the
00:36:11.800 right, because we're very money
00:36:12.820 focused.
00:36:13.360 The left, they'll have a guy
00:36:15.340 living on a mattress, eating
00:36:17.580 beans, and he'll still want to
00:36:19.600 throw his life away.
00:36:21.820 For the cause.
00:36:22.840 We don't really have that on
00:36:23.700 the right.
00:36:24.060 So we do need a mentality shift
00:36:25.200 about public service, what the
00:36:26.340 country means, and that has to
00:36:29.280 happen before you can even talk
00:36:30.380 about what the public square
00:36:31.780 should look like.
00:36:33.520 What do you think the trickle
00:36:35.260 down effects will be of, like
00:36:38.280 you said, the trial in New York
00:36:40.140 and the targeting of Trump?
00:36:41.540 Obviously, this is putting us in
00:36:43.920 pretty dangerous waters.
00:36:45.600 We understand that you probably
00:36:47.600 can't continually run a country
00:36:49.640 that puts its political
00:36:51.180 opponents, it's the major
00:36:52.560 opponent of the sitting
00:36:53.540 president, on trial on what are
00:36:55.780 pretty obviously fallacious
00:36:56.920 charges.
00:36:58.280 Do you think that this trial is
00:37:00.320 going to hurt Trump ultimately?
00:37:02.780 Do you think that this is going
00:37:04.600 to damage the way that elections
00:37:06.360 work going forward?
00:37:07.920 Or do you think that this is
00:37:09.640 ultimately going to help Trump?
00:37:10.840 It's going to propel him.
00:37:11.780 People are going to recognize the
00:37:13.420 unfairness of this, and he's going
00:37:15.060 to be able to use this to kind of
00:37:16.780 bolster his numbers going into
00:37:18.140 November.
00:37:19.020 I'm not a professional
00:37:20.240 pollster type.
00:37:22.560 I have instincts about that.
00:37:24.060 I've certainly looked at the polls,
00:37:25.260 and it doesn't look like it's
00:37:26.000 hurting Trump at all.
00:37:27.180 I think people are tired of it.
00:37:28.780 And I think when the campaign
00:37:29.980 actually opens up and you have
00:37:31.480 debates or you have policies
00:37:32.740 coming out or you have real plans
00:37:34.280 and serious stuff, I think people
00:37:37.020 will largely forget about it.
00:37:39.000 I think it's clear that Merchan wants
00:37:40.320 a conviction, and I think he wants
00:37:42.220 it quick, I think that's
00:37:44.840 irresponsible.
00:37:45.860 But the public generally, okay,
00:37:48.040 so we've got the MAGA base, right?
00:37:51.000 They're going to be with Trump
00:37:51.940 either way, and any time he's in
00:37:54.240 court just makes him look cooler.
00:37:55.840 And then there's the absolutely
00:37:56.900 crazy left people.
00:37:59.320 They're going to hate him no matter
00:38:00.320 what.
00:38:00.620 It's those people in the middle,
00:38:01.660 and I think a large chunk of
00:38:03.100 America doesn't, you'd be
00:38:04.820 surprised.
00:38:05.400 People, like, they're not
00:38:06.260 watching, yeah, CNN's on at a
00:38:09.300 lot of restaurants or the airport
00:38:10.800 or blah, blah, blah, but people
00:38:12.280 aren't watching this, and to some
00:38:14.900 degree, they're aware of it but
00:38:16.020 don't care.
00:38:16.960 It's not a part of their life.
00:38:18.300 And it's those people you want to
00:38:19.460 ask.
00:38:20.200 And I think, so, like, this stuff
00:38:23.780 about Cohen stealing money, I
00:38:25.520 think that's a big possibility for
00:38:27.420 the narrative shift.
00:38:28.180 It's, like, almost not relevant.
00:38:30.740 I mean, it goes to his credibility,
00:38:32.120 so it is relevant, but I do think
00:38:33.540 it's a great story for the public
00:38:35.920 consumption to be like, you know,
00:38:38.360 who the hell is this guy?
00:38:39.360 Why are we even here?
00:38:40.340 This is all ridiculous.
00:38:42.920 So, yeah, I can't speak to, my
00:38:47.480 interest really is not how it
00:38:49.440 affects the electorate.
00:38:50.580 It's more how it affects Trump
00:38:52.000 because I want him to be, you
00:38:56.680 know, Trump too, out for
00:38:58.780 vengeance, you know.
00:39:00.360 I want him to understand this
00:39:02.880 person screwed me, that person
00:39:04.640 screwed me.
00:39:05.300 I, you know, when I sit down and
00:39:08.420 say, get me the best lawyer on
00:39:09.660 X, it doesn't work.
00:39:11.700 Like, why did I hire Michael
00:39:13.180 Cohen?
00:39:13.600 What was the, what was the, what
00:39:15.800 was the error that I made there
00:39:16.960 in correcting it?
00:39:17.620 Like, my real hope is that a lot
00:39:19.420 of lessons for our tragic hero
00:39:21.640 are learned.
00:39:24.720 That's kind of my takeaway from
00:39:26.020 all of this.
00:39:26.860 Yeah, you really hope he's
00:39:27.700 drafting the Sulla-style
00:39:29.080 prescription list somewhere.
00:39:30.340 No, no, no.
00:39:36.940 I do, I kind of want the shoe
00:39:38.780 on the other foot.
00:39:39.360 I want that moment where we
00:39:41.880 force the left to step forward
00:39:43.540 and say, I am Spartacus.
00:39:45.340 I want them all to be
00:39:46.280 Spartacus.
00:39:48.980 So, when you look at public
00:39:51.720 service, like I said, a lot of
00:39:53.240 people, very skeptical, I think,
00:39:55.840 understandably, of kind of the
00:39:57.960 culture, who steps into these
00:39:59.780 positions, how they end up
00:40:01.240 shaping people.
00:40:02.460 Very skeptical that things can
00:40:04.600 change.
00:40:05.360 But I wonder, do you think that
00:40:07.580 ultimately there is a way for
00:40:09.500 people to go to Washington,
00:40:12.300 continue to hold the beliefs
00:40:14.900 and the priorities of the rest
00:40:18.400 of America?
00:40:19.000 Or do you think that there does
00:40:20.640 eventually have to be a
00:40:22.140 devolution or a shift where we
00:40:24.900 get to a place where more
00:40:26.140 agencies are outside of
00:40:28.280 Washington, more representatives
00:40:30.340 are spending time outside of
00:40:31.880 Washington, where there's a way
00:40:33.620 to kind of decentralize, at
00:40:36.420 least, or reduce the amount of
00:40:38.340 time people are spending in this
00:40:40.020 milieu?
00:40:40.600 Or do you think that people
00:40:41.360 really can continue to hold
00:40:42.820 those priorities if you have the
00:40:44.800 right culture, attitudes, the
00:40:46.480 right way that you're
00:40:48.160 structuring, I guess, the
00:40:50.360 culture inside those
00:40:51.660 institutions?
00:40:52.440 As it is now, I don't see a
00:40:56.100 structural solution because it's
00:40:59.060 wild, you know, seeing scandals in
00:41:02.820 other countries where someone
00:41:04.140 leaves the civil service and takes
00:41:05.420 a lobbying job and they go nuts.
00:41:08.080 In this country, money rules.
00:41:10.060 We have, and part of that is we
00:41:13.220 can, on the right, we're like,
00:41:14.360 well, that's constitutional.
00:41:15.340 You have a right to free contract
00:41:16.560 and da-da-da-da.
00:41:17.080 We really need, I think, stronger
00:41:20.240 rules, ethics rules and other
00:41:22.260 rules, not because I think we
00:41:24.300 should be delegating it to
00:41:25.400 pointy-headed bureaucrats, but
00:41:26.760 because I really want, like, if
00:41:28.060 you take a job, like, I'm happy
00:41:30.840 that many of the best candidates
00:41:33.500 for president are very wealthy.
00:41:35.400 You know, I don't want them
00:41:36.680 beholden to what happens during
00:41:39.600 their job.
00:41:40.160 And I'm unhappy when I see people
00:41:41.780 like Hunter Biden making money off
00:41:43.920 of what their father does in
00:41:45.020 public service.
00:41:45.600 We need a lot of rules changes,
00:41:47.660 I think, to fix that.
00:41:49.260 So I don't think that we can
00:41:50.860 solve it.
00:41:52.280 There are structural incentives,
00:41:53.480 no matter how good people are
00:41:55.000 right now, that swampify people.
00:41:58.460 Moving agencies out to the
00:42:00.240 boonies, you know, we moved BLM,
00:42:02.420 the Bureau of Land Management, out
00:42:03.460 to Grand Junction, Colorado.
00:42:05.140 Made a lot of sense because that's
00:42:07.000 where most of the federal lands are
00:42:08.240 out west.
00:42:09.540 When you move a big agency, you are
00:42:12.300 teleporting a bunch of blue voters
00:42:14.340 into an area.
00:42:15.040 So I think you should always be
00:42:16.740 very careful with that.
00:42:18.860 The real question you're asking is
00:42:20.200 there's a disconnect between the
00:42:22.020 government and the governed.
00:42:23.180 Like, there's an elite that's
00:42:24.740 culturally very different.
00:42:26.640 I don't know.
00:42:27.260 There's no one silver bullet to fix
00:42:29.320 that.
00:42:29.600 It takes sustained attention,
00:42:30.880 multiple elections,
00:42:32.480 and people mad.
00:42:34.360 And I think the best thing that I see
00:42:37.360 is, you know, the generational shift
00:42:39.960 among Zoomers to the right, among
00:42:43.840 young Blacks to the right, things like
00:42:46.320 that.
00:42:47.160 It's not all perfect, but that to me is
00:42:50.520 much more sustainable.
00:42:51.320 And yeah, obviously, for those of us
00:42:55.460 thinking on the right, that are in
00:42:56.760 positions of authority, that have
00:42:58.480 these views, many of whom you can make
00:43:01.660 your bank during the day and then work
00:43:04.080 shadowy on, you know, public-spirited
00:43:06.720 right-wing stuff at night, you know,
00:43:09.060 those people do need to be doing that.
00:43:11.080 We need to be coordinating and having,
00:43:12.400 you know, an all-front sort of domestic
00:43:15.780 housecleaning.
00:43:18.540 I don't have an answer for that.
00:43:20.040 Like, it's a really tough issue that's
00:43:21.460 going to take years and years and lots
00:43:23.060 and lots of locuses of attention.
00:43:25.440 State legislators, legislatures,
00:43:27.560 everything down to your HOA.
00:43:29.620 Like, dealing with my family with their
00:43:31.220 HOAs, my sister and my mother, it's
00:43:35.660 lib stuff, even in deep red areas.
00:43:37.740 So, like, this stuff permeates.
00:43:39.360 Or school boards, local school boards.
00:43:41.320 Reagan launched so many
00:43:44.540 people to enter local politics,
00:43:48.100 even at dog-catcher level.
00:43:49.980 I don't think anybody elects dog-catchers
00:43:51.460 anymore, but, like...
00:43:53.140 Mosquito control board down here in
00:43:55.600 Florida.
00:43:56.200 Trump hasn't done that yet, but I think
00:43:57.920 that's, like, the next institutional
00:43:59.840 step is, like, people need to see it as
00:44:02.080 a part of their fun, as a part of their
00:44:05.040 non-economic day to volunteer and go
00:44:11.420 into public service at the local level
00:44:12.940 and apply the sort of Trumpist, populist
00:44:15.720 principles, America first, conservative
00:44:17.520 principles there.
00:44:19.380 And I think that will help a lot.
00:44:22.540 No, I agree.
00:44:23.500 Yeah, I think of Louis the Sun King and
00:44:26.360 how he uprooted the entire French
00:44:29.340 nobility and moved them to Versailles just
00:44:31.380 so he could make sure to maintain control
00:44:33.700 because if he could separate these people
00:44:35.280 from their lands and, you know, the areas
00:44:38.220 that they traditionally ruled, then he could
00:44:40.380 become an absolutist and now that's just
00:44:42.760 what we do every day and treat it as if
00:44:44.480 it's normal.
00:44:45.140 We just dump everybody in the capital
00:44:46.720 city and assume that they're going to
00:44:48.240 continue to represent the areas they were
00:44:49.920 supposed to be from.
00:44:50.880 Hopefully there will be some reassignments
00:44:52.660 to Alaska, which I would be really happy
00:44:54.900 with, but I know a lot of little swamp
00:44:57.120 creatures would be very unhappy with.
00:44:58.460 So hopefully it's a shock and awe campaign
00:45:00.180 bigger than any particular policy with
00:45:04.640 respect to the civil service or any issue
00:45:06.260 under Trump.
00:45:06.620 Like, I think the main thing is shock
00:45:09.620 and awe.
00:45:10.840 So, well, well, Andrew, I'll say this.
00:45:13.400 I'm glad that you and many others are
00:45:16.080 working on this.
00:45:17.160 Obviously, it's easy to throw pot shots
00:45:18.680 from the outside.
00:45:20.200 Nothing's perfect.
00:45:20.940 And this is a very long process that's
00:45:23.920 going to take a lot of work.
00:45:25.380 So I'm glad that you guys have the shoulder
00:45:27.680 to the wheel on this early, because obviously
00:45:29.640 this is going to be a huge effort.
00:45:32.520 If people want to donate to the fund or
00:45:34.800 if they otherwise want to get involved,
00:45:37.660 where can they donate?
00:45:38.720 And is there any other part of your work
00:45:40.660 that you want to point people to?
00:45:42.620 No, I'll just point to that.
00:45:44.120 I have my hand in a lot of pots, but I think
00:45:46.320 this is probably the most direct and worthwhile
00:45:48.560 cause that I work on.
00:45:49.960 So it's personnel policy, ops, O-P-S dot O-R-G.
00:45:54.520 And you can find us.
00:45:55.660 And there was that nice Washpo hit piece last week
00:45:59.700 about Trump alumni raising millions for,
00:46:02.680 I forget what the title is, but Trump alumni
00:46:04.760 raising millions for, basically for legal defense.
00:46:07.980 Yeah, yeah.
00:46:08.480 Some kind of fascist takeover.
00:46:09.880 That's every headline, but yeah.
00:46:11.440 No, it's literally letting people eat
00:46:13.280 while they're having FBI up their business
00:46:16.320 for nothing.
00:46:17.700 To be fair for the left, that is the definition of fascist.
00:46:19.600 That is fascism.
00:46:20.400 Yes, that is fascism.
00:46:22.980 Well, thank you so much, Andrew.
00:46:24.680 I appreciate you coming on.
00:46:26.420 And of course, guys, if it's your first time
00:46:27.980 watching this channel, please make sure
00:46:29.940 that you go ahead and subscribe to the YouTube channel.
00:46:33.020 Turn on the notifications so that you can catch
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00:46:37.500 If you want to get the broadcast as a podcast,
00:46:39.880 make sure that you go ahead and subscribe
00:46:41.060 to Orr McIntyre Show on your favorite podcast platform.
00:46:44.620 And if you're catching this as a prerecorded episode,
00:46:46.860 that's because I'm going to be on Dr. Drew.
00:46:49.140 Here at 3 p.m. talking about my new book,
00:46:51.820 The Total State.
00:46:52.680 It's over on Rumble.
00:46:53.800 So if you want to go ahead and catch me there live,
00:46:55.980 you can do that as well.
00:46:57.320 Thank you for watching, guys.
00:46:58.380 And as always, I'll talk to you next time.
00:47:00.920 Thank you.
00:47:01.180 Thank you.
00:47:01.620 Thank you.
00:47:01.700 Thank you.