The Auron MacIntyre Show - Responding to Jordan Peterson and David French on Masculinity ｜ 7⧸9⧸25

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00:00:30.360 Hey everybody, how's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.720 I am Oren McIntyre.

00:00:36.360 I'm feeling a lot better, but I'm still a little under the weather, so I won't be on camera again today.

00:00:41.980 Like I said, I think I'm through the worst of it.

00:00:43.820 Probably will be firing on all cylinders by Friday, but gonna keep it this way for now.

00:00:51.060 A lot of people probably saw that Jordan Peterson was talking to David French.

00:00:56.380 And frankly, after the last few guests Jordan Peterson has had, including having James Lindsay on to attack his fellow hosts at the Daily Wire,

00:01:07.720 We're probably not expecting anything great from seeing David French show up.

00:01:13.280 David French is famously kind of a hic-lib. 0.99

00:01:16.540 You know, he built himself up as this conservative stalwart and, you know, wrote for years for conservative establishment publications, this kind of thing.

00:01:26.560 But over the last, I don't know, what has it been a decade at this point, French has just gotten worse and worse and worse to the point where he famously just got completely trounced by many people.

00:01:40.300 He became a New York Times writer, clearly, basically having sold himself as this never-Trumper and even former Republican now.

00:01:49.860 He said he voted for Kamala Harris in the last election.

00:01:52.700 They talk about that a little bit in this episode.

00:01:56.840 So when we all saw this, it was like, okay, this is going to be a train wreck because the topic of the discussion was masculinity.

00:02:03.920 Now, I like Jordan Peterson, and I think that there is a version of masculinity that he does represent, but he doesn't exactly hit you as the alpha male guy, right?

00:02:15.680 Like, again, not everybody has to be, but a lot of times, you know, people discussing masculinity, they want to see someone who, you know, been in the military or, you know, done something very physical, something like that.

00:02:28.180 Jordan Peterson is masculine in other ways, but definitely not those.

00:02:31.660 And then David French is just, ironically, having served in the military, though, as a lawyer, ultimately, for a lot of people, is kind of the antithesis, I think, of masculinity in a lot of ways.

00:02:44.700 He's very focused on softening, I think, the male persona in a lot of areas.

00:02:51.700 That said, I expected to walk into this thing and just see a complete disaster, right?

00:02:56.700 Like, a lot of times, when you go into this, you're like, okay, this is going to be fun for the audience because they're going to see how terrible this is.

00:03:04.400 There's a little bit of cringe-inducing.

00:03:06.120 But then we can also, like, mine some of the important mistakes made, and we can point out all of the issues.

00:03:12.180 So we have some laughs, but we also discuss something important, and that's the balance you're often looking for when you kind of do these reviews of discussions, right?

00:03:22.640 When you're commenting on this back and forth, you're trying to show that there is obviously a lot of mistakes made here.

00:03:29.940 But at the same time, at least you can kind of understand where they went wrong and take something out of it while also kind of laughing at some of the problems that they had.

00:03:40.700 I have to say, while this was not amazing, there were still a lot of mistakes made, and we'll point out some of those here.

00:03:49.720 It was not the train wreck that I expected.

00:03:52.320 And I think a big part of that was that Jordan Peterson was actually reasonably good here.

00:03:58.040 And I'm surprised about that for a couple of reasons.

00:04:04.220 Peterson has really been harping very hard on kind of the internet crowd, the online right.

00:04:11.240 He's been making a lot of noises about how they offend him.

00:04:14.540 They hurt his feelings.

00:04:15.840 Not things that really often make you think extremely masculine behavior many times.

00:04:20.840 Also, Jordan has been very focused on pushing, you know, trying to warn young men away from bad influences.

00:04:31.220 And I actually sympathize with that part of Jordan's message.

00:04:34.720 But the way he's gone about it is very hectoring.

00:04:38.040 It's very schoolmarmish.

00:04:39.900 It's very, well, frankly, feminine in many ways.

00:04:43.900 And so this has often had the opposite effect.

00:04:46.980 Instead of driving young men away from that stuff, it usually drives them towards that stuff.

00:04:53.060 And so in a lot of ways, Jordan has been counterproductive in the way that he has approached this.

00:04:59.060 However, in this one, again, he's not perfect.

00:05:01.920 I want to be clear.

00:05:02.760 He's not perfect.

00:05:03.340 However, he does come off a lot more like an, I would say older, he's older now, but an earlier Jordan Peterson, one in which he was much more assertive and confident about some of these issues.

00:05:19.900 And he really drills down on the men's issues in this, which I think is good.

00:05:26.300 Like, he doesn't shy away.

00:05:27.620 In fact, he really becomes quite angry that people would question that men are having problems, especially young men are having problems.

00:05:36.720 It's a very refreshing thing.

00:05:38.200 Again, that's not completely inconsistent with Jordan Peterson's message through the years, but he has gotten a little cringy on this recently.

00:05:46.420 And so it was nice to see him back.

00:05:48.860 I wouldn't say back up to form, but in doing, you know, much better with this.

00:05:53.480 Now, French was not as great as you would imagine.

00:05:58.140 French made a lot of apologies in this, but he wasn't as much of a disaster as I expected.

00:06:04.420 He did acknowledge the problems that men were facing.

00:06:07.980 He very rarely pushed back, saying that they wouldn't have many of the problems that Jordan Peterson was outlining.

00:06:14.200 And I think a lot of the reasons that French was not as bad as I expected in this is basically at the outset, they kind of agree to set aside all the things they disagree on.

00:06:25.560 Maybe that would have been a more interesting conversation.

00:06:28.140 Maybe we would have seen it, or at least it would have been more lolcow, right? 0.96

00:06:31.260 We would have had more laughs from that conversation if French had actually expressed all of the ideas that he had, like the blessings of liberty that are drag queen story hour.

00:06:43.380 But they avoided a lot of that stuff, and so what we got was a conversation that was probably not as hilarious as we might have hoped or as cringe-inducing as we might have expected, but was more productive.

00:06:56.320 Now, again, French does make mistakes in here.

00:06:59.640 Unfortunately, he often plods on quite a bit, and so I really couldn't include a ton of David French in these clips because a lot of it is him kind of meandering.

00:07:08.600 Yeah, he makes a point, but he makes it over, like, six or seven minutes.

00:07:12.800 It's very hard to respond to without just playing the whole thing in its entirety for you.

00:07:17.560 So, you know, this whole video is an hour.

00:07:20.520 I think they did another hour behind a paywall somewhere.

00:07:22.940 Maybe it got much worse there.

00:07:24.280 I don't know.

00:07:24.920 But I obviously have to condense this for us to talk about it inside of my show.

00:07:30.160 So if you'd like to get the whole hour, I can't say I'd recommend it.

00:07:33.160 Most of the times I'm like, I recommend this for context.

00:07:35.400 Make sure you check out the context.

00:07:37.200 I don't know if I would do that to you this time.

00:07:39.080 I mean, I was doing this so you didn't have to, right?

00:07:41.820 Like, I was making the sacrifice so that you did not have to go through the painful experience of watching the entire thing.

00:07:50.140 That said, if you would like the context, it is there for you.

00:07:55.100 Again, I don't think I'd suggest it, but you have that option.

00:07:58.700 All right, guys, so we'll dive into this, and we'll just play it from the beginning, and I'll stop in and let you know here when we get to the important parts we're going to pull out.

00:08:14.780 I want to tell you a story about my son when he was about 13.

00:08:19.180 So I reviewed his report card, and it wasn't stellar, let's say, although it was fine, but it wasn't stellar.

00:08:30.520 And so I asked him about that, and he said, well, Dad, I'm doing pretty well.

00:08:39.340 I'm doing really well for a boy.

00:08:43.420 Right.

00:08:44.240 And I thought, I'd never heard him say anything like that.

00:08:48.080 And it was certainly nothing that he had picked up at home.

00:08:51.440 And it was quite striking to me because.

00:08:54.680 So having been a public school teacher, I know exactly what Jordan Peterson is talking about.

00:08:59.700 You know, all the movies we watch and the television we watch, it's, you know, a lot of people talking about how, oh, you know, women, the expectations are lower.

00:09:11.200 And, you know, they're, they're looked down on in a classroom and, you know, they're, you know, good job for a lady, these kind of things. 0.92

00:09:19.220 But that was just not my experience at all.

00:09:22.420 When I was teaching, women got the bulk of the attention. 1.00

00:09:26.560 They got the bulk of the praise.

00:09:28.580 They had the bulk of the assistants and were often elevated in the classroom.

00:09:33.800 And it was the boys that were seen as problems.

00:09:37.480 In fact, I distinctly remember, you know, I taught both high school and then middle school for a little while.

00:09:43.440 And obviously in middle school, you know, they're younger and they have much less attention span.

00:09:47.660 And especially in middle school, all of the female teachers, and they were mostly female teachers, of course, would openly talk about how they did not want classes with a decent amount of boys.

00:10:00.660 If they could get classes that were disproportionately female, they were very happy with that. 0.84

00:10:06.140 And there's a lot of reasons.

00:10:07.940 And we'll go into some of them here in a minute when they talk about the difficulties that the classroom environment provides.

00:10:14.540 But I think it was a huge problem.

00:10:18.480 And that mentality is very toxic.

00:10:21.980 As he said, this is not something that his son picked up at their house.

00:10:25.640 This is not the way that they talked to him.

00:10:28.040 So this is a attitude that is received from the classroom.

00:10:31.300 This is a expectation that he's getting there.

00:10:35.220 Now, Jordan Peterson is going to explain why those expectations have shifted.

00:10:39.400 But the fact that that is the default mentality that women are going to outperform and should outperform men in a classroom, especially when this has not been the case for basically all of history, tells you something is going on.

00:10:52.480 For him, that was just a matter of fact.

00:10:55.820 And of course, that's a deep rabbit hole, because when your son comes to you and says, I'm doing pretty good for a boy, if you have any sense, the first thing you think is, where the hell did that come from?

00:11:09.240 And so seriously, because now that's an implicit presupposition that the boys underperform the girls.

00:11:17.440 That was certainly not a presupposition when I was his age.

00:11:21.020 And it wasn't anything that was appropriate for him, because there's nothing wrong with his mind or his conscientiousness.

00:11:28.480 And so, you know, I've observed that boys are there.

00:11:35.840 The school system is not set up for them in the least.

00:11:39.300 The vast majority of teachers are not only female, but infantilizing female and radically left.

00:11:48.460 Boys play preferences are denigrated.

00:11:51.140 They're required to sit for hours at a time, which is not in keeping with their nature, especially.

00:11:57.240 So this is really important, and it's important on a couple different levels.

00:12:01.640 So he's absolutely right that, obviously, the modern classroom especially is very feminine in its nature. 0.94

00:12:08.960 Now, there's a lot of reasons for that.

00:12:11.240 One of them is that female teachers pretty much dominate the profession. 1.00

00:12:16.200 Now, that was always true in the younger grades, right?

00:12:19.380 Most people had female teachers when they were in elementary school, sometimes almost exclusively female in elementary school. 0.88

00:12:26.580 But as you got older, more and more men were involved in the education process.

00:12:31.300 And by the time you get to something like high school, it's not exactly even, but there were a good amount of male teachers throughout.

00:12:39.420 That has changed quite a bit.

00:12:41.440 You see fewer and fewer male teachers even at higher levels.

00:12:44.720 And more and more women are also in leadership roles, which means your administration is also usually predominantly female.

00:12:53.760 There's a female culture throughout. 1.00

00:12:56.160 Now, again, in many places, that's not necessarily bad.

00:12:59.820 Certainly in elementary education, you expect that to be the case.

00:13:04.240 And I think rightfully so.

00:13:05.540 Women have a way with younger children. 1.00

00:13:08.580 They are more adept at, you know, raising and dealing with younger children.

00:13:13.500 They have instincts towards younger children that men don't have.

00:13:17.260 And there's a reason that a lot of people, you know, even kind of raise an eyebrow at a male teacher below a certain grade level.

00:13:23.640 No one's looking at a male teacher in 11th grade as if they're strange.

00:13:27.300 But they do tend to look at, you know, first grade male teachers as a bit of an oddity.

00:13:31.580 I don't think that's, you know, necessarily correct all the time.

00:13:33.920 I think there are great male elementary teachers, but that dynamic is there for a reason, right?

00:13:39.040 It plays itself out on a regular basis for a reason.

00:13:43.040 So you expect that that's going to change, though, as you move up the grade levels.

00:13:48.220 But less and less, that's the case.

00:13:50.440 More and more, it's a completely female-dominated environment in all these scenarios. 1.00

00:13:54.960 He also talks about the way that classes are structured and how it's, you know, a lot of sitting around and not being, you know, not moving.

00:14:04.660 It's a lot of focused attention calmly in class.

00:14:07.660 Now, there was always a sense that you needed to be sitting down in a classroom at some point, and boys still manage to do okay in school.

00:14:18.440 But the big change, and they do talk about this elsewhere, but I couldn't include it in this particular clip, I don't believe, is that they talk about how they have reduced the number of recesses in a school.

00:14:30.520 And that is actually very important.

00:14:32.220 School used to be more breaks where kids could go outside and explore and play.

00:14:38.540 And that actually matters quite a bit.

00:14:40.520 I mean, don't get me wrong.

00:14:41.660 I think that we should be focusing on bettering education.

00:14:45.660 But ironically, it's not always just cramming the most amount of hours in.

00:14:49.680 And this is why I have a problem with, like, the Vivekraswamy, get rid of all play, get rid of all leisure, spend every moment memorizing words for the spelling bee understanding of education.

00:15:02.040 Because, yeah, it does yield a particular, like, tiger mom product if that's what you're looking for.

00:15:08.820 However, you know, there are things that that type of education system seriously suppresses.

00:15:17.860 And a lot of it is stuff that I think is critical to people from our culture.

00:15:23.080 Yeah, a lot of Asian cultures take to this somewhat well.

00:15:27.240 But, I mean, look at something like South Korea, right?

00:15:30.300 South Korea has this incredible grind culture where they're constantly forcing their children to just, you know, 12 hours of school and then all the side activities and everything else and go, go, go all the time.

00:15:43.960 And they don't have any kids.

00:15:45.640 Their culture is dying, right?

00:15:47.000 So, yeah, you produce the most effective widget at, like, optimizing the financialization of your economy, but your country is not going to exist in 50 years because you just your birth rate is, like, you know, 0.6 or something.

00:16:02.600 And so you have this disaster looming because you have put all of this pressure on kids to constantly learn.

00:16:10.320 So there's, like, a balance you need to create, especially, and I think it's different for every culture.

00:16:14.480 I think there are some cultures that take to it and some that take to it less.

00:16:17.920 But the Western culture has always been one of hard work, but it's also been one that gave people enough space to consider things, to grow, to explore different alternatives, right?

00:16:32.020 It wasn't just nose to the grindstone 24-7, you know, beat your brains out and then get exhausted every night to fall asleep.

00:16:40.220 You had always this understanding that it was both, you know, you learn, you need the intellectual, but you also needed the kinetic.

00:16:47.680 You needed activity.

00:16:49.340 And especially as a man, you need to do both.

00:16:52.740 You need to feel physical space while also stimulating your mind.

00:16:57.520 In fact, the actual act of going out and playing is, of course, important to children in general, but is especially important to men who kind of need that mixture of the activities.

00:17:07.760 And so, you know, Jordan is pointing out that them being stuck in a room all day with zero play or reduced to, like, maybe one session.

00:17:17.260 I mean, even the kindergartners only usually get one section of recess at this point.

00:17:23.320 And so this obsession with, like, trying to fill every moment with learning instead of understanding that if you actually let especially males go work things out in a physical environment for a little while and then come back in,

00:17:36.460 they're going to be much more productive.

00:17:38.140 This is a, a mentality that is entirely centered on kind of the way that women learn and less the way that men learn.

00:17:46.180 Actually, if they're active, in which case they get diagnosed with ADHD and get put on methylphenidate, which suppresses play behavior as one of its primary functions. 0.96

00:17:56.960 And then they're, they're told that competitive games are wrong because we should all cooperate by people who are too stupid to notice that competitive games are cooperative because everybody's playing by the same rules. 0.71

00:18:12.100 So this is actually really important from Jordan as well. 0.75

00:18:16.520 So he talks about two things here, right?

00:18:18.440 First, the fact that you are putting a lot of young men, a lot of boys on ADHD drugs who aren't necessarily ADHD.

00:18:29.620 Now, this is not to say that there is no ADHD at all.

00:18:32.880 That's not what I'm saying.

00:18:33.620 But the over, uh, the over diagnosis and especially the over medification medication is often because young boys do not work well in the classroom environment and the teachers just want them to shut up and the parents just want to stop getting phone calls home.

00:18:49.880 Right.

00:18:50.440 That that's a lot of the motivation.

00:18:51.880 The teachers are not going to take the time to rearrange the classroom setting and all of all the incentives inside inside the education system in order to better serve boys.

00:19:01.880 It's easier to medicate the boys than it is to adjust the system.

00:19:06.080 Uh, and if this sounds familiar, it's because this is a large amount of what our society does, right?

00:19:11.780 If, if you've got, uh, feelings, then the most important thing to do is to shut off the feelings, not address where they come from.

00:19:19.560 If the system is causing you distress, the most important thing is not to address the problems inside the system.

00:19:26.300 The important thing is to medicate you until you shut up about the problems of the system.

00:19:33.040 And so we get this constant desire, especially when it comes to the behavior of men, which is inconvenient for many of their teachers, especially let's be honest, because the teachers are female.

00:19:43.360 Uh, and so you end up in a scenario where a lot of boys are on medication.

00:19:47.780 They wouldn't need if the school could adjust the environment for them.

00:19:52.660 Again, this is not to say no one is autistic.

00:19:54.840 This is not to say no one has ADHD, but I think it is fair to say that this is over medicated.

00:20:01.320 And Jordan's making a good point about that.

00:20:02.980 The even more important point that I think he, he is, uh, talking about here.

00:20:07.260 And again, having taught, uh, in public school, I identify this right away.

00:20:12.440 Uh, boys want hierarchy and women want equality. 1.00

00:20:18.220 That's it.

00:20:19.060 Like that women want cooperation and equality. 1.00

00:20:21.800 Boys want structure and hierarchy. 0.99

00:20:23.900 This is, or I should say they want, they both want structure, but boys want competition and hierarchy.

00:20:29.380 Boys need to know where they are in the pecking order.

00:20:32.680 It's actually good for them to compete.

00:20:35.080 It's good for them to win and lose.

00:20:36.920 It is good for their character.

00:20:38.540 It is critical for understanding their place in society.

00:20:42.380 They need to know this about themselves.

00:20:45.500 Women want cooperation, right? 1.00

00:20:48.120 This is why women are constantly searching with their social group to ensure that everyone is okay. 1.00

00:20:54.580 That's why women tend to be better hosts, better caretakers, uh, better, uh, social coordinators, right? 1.00

00:21:00.980 Because this is their job as everyone.

00:21:03.160 Okay.

00:21:03.480 Are we all working together?

00:21:04.880 You know, they don't like conflict men create the hierarchy, establish the hierarchy working competition, right?

00:21:13.780 This is, this is how they work.

00:21:15.280 Neither of these are bad.

00:21:16.580 I want to make it clear.

00:21:17.580 Neither of these are bad.

00:21:18.920 Both of these are necessary.

00:21:20.120 This is not about the gender wars and they get into this, which I think is important. 0.92

00:21:24.060 It's not about the gender wars here.

00:21:26.280 We both need each other.

00:21:27.660 But when you try to mix both genders, both sexes, and you try to force one sex to behave entirely in the manner of the other one, which you tend to do because the system gets uniform, right? 0.90

00:21:40.640 When the system's all male, you expect male things. 0.86

00:21:44.140 And when the system's all female, you expect all female things. 1.00

00:21:46.740 Well, education is mostly dominated by female teachers, mostly dominated by female administrators, mostly, you know, curriculums written by women.

00:21:55.380 Uh, you know, it's, uh, the counselors are women. 1.00

00:21:58.020 The, the paras are women. 0.99

00:22:00.000 Everyone involved is a woman or pretty feminine.

00:22:03.520 And so the whole system skews towards female expectations and applies them to men. 0.95

00:22:09.380 And so the presence of men in a classroom who want hierarchy, who want competition, they want definitive winners or losers.

00:22:17.860 That's a problem for women. 1.00

00:22:19.220 It's not just a problem.

00:22:20.320 It's a threat.

00:22:21.200 You have to understand that for women, this becomes a threat often.

00:22:25.100 And, and, and this is why it's, it's, it's sometimes very difficult to mix gendered spaces.

00:22:29.840 This is why in many situations there, there were segregations of the sexes when it came to many things, including education, because not just, uh, we can't educate the women or something though.

00:22:41.400 Sometimes that was the case, but because importantly, they learn and operate in different modes.

00:22:46.480 And if you try to mix them, then you have to navigate the messy waters of, are we serving the female paradigm? 1.00

00:22:52.060 Are we solving the mayor paradigm?

00:22:53.860 And you end up sacrificing one for the other.

00:22:56.820 However, in the scenario with the mixed education, you got to figure it out.

00:23:00.440 Right.

00:23:00.700 And again, I don't, I don't think there's, it's entirely one side or the other.

00:23:03.820 I don't, I'm not sure.

00:23:04.440 You know, it's not, uh, the male way is the only way.

00:23:06.540 And the female way is the only way, but it's very clear that we have been completely dominated by the female way in these shared spaces. 0.76

00:23:13.160 Right.

00:23:13.600 The default is basically go with the female. 0.99

00:23:16.400 If it's a mixed space, that's kind of what has become the scenario. 1.00

00:23:20.220 And the more female the space has become, especially in education, the more that has become the dominant understanding. 1.00

00:23:25.560 And so Jordan is pointing out, I think something very important that the, the male presence and the male desire for hierarchy competition is seen as a direct threat to the female environment that has been cultivated inside the educational system.

00:23:39.080 And then they're told that men, boys, ambition is pathological and that the patriarchy is, and marriage for that matter is an oppressive institution.

00:23:50.840 And if they manage to escape from all that, then they're told that the, the activities of males are destroying the planet.

00:23:59.180 And that's pretty much a comprehensive, uh, that's comprehensive evil queen pathology, as far as I'm concerned. 1.00

00:24:06.140 And it's not bloody wells.

00:24:08.400 Then you add to that, there's an additional twist too, which we should delve into.

00:24:12.520 You know, it's a universal cultural problem to make.

00:24:19.360 So Jordan here, before he's going to get into another good point here in a second, but, uh, he gets, uh, you know, he points out that ultimately all of these messages, you know, it's not just the, uh, it's not just the way that the classroom addresses young men, but even after they escape it, if they make it through all of the, you know, the, the negativity inside the classroom.

00:24:39.360 Then they're confronted with the idea that their desires to have families and play their traditional roles inside of families is a threat to the system.

00:24:48.200 Uh, and by the way, it is right.

00:24:50.240 Like there's a reason that the system feels this way.

00:24:52.760 It's because men being actual virtuous men is a threat to the system.

00:24:57.820 Okay.

00:24:58.460 That's why they don't want men to be cultivated, to be virtuous. 0.99

00:25:02.380 They do not want this.

00:25:03.780 The system is threatened by men who are assertive, who are masculine, who are dangerous, but are also simultaneously able to temper that danger and toward, turn it towards the good and aim it at the system.

00:25:18.520 If they need to, right, that is a danger to the system.

00:25:21.460 So they do not want this.

00:25:22.740 And so this is why every male behavior is pathologized because male behavior is a threat to the system.

00:25:28.320 Female behavior, if it corrodes entirely, will eventually destroy the system. 1.00

00:25:33.960 If it's completely unchecked, just like male behavior, completely unchecked would destroy a system. 0.82

00:25:39.480 But male proper behavior is actually a threat to the system and female behavior is not. 0.94

00:25:46.080 And so that's why there, you know, even if there isn't, there's not a conscious, like we have to keep down all the men there.

00:25:51.040 There's no conspiracy, uh, probably sitting around.

00:25:54.400 I mean, there, there is a general, Hey, we should adopt, you know, female attitudes or we should promote women more, but there's probably not like an explicit cabal of like, are the purpose, uh, we are doing this for is to get rid of male behavior.

00:26:07.340 But this is part of like the larger kind of postmodern authoritarian, authoritarian personality type approach.

00:26:14.540 You know, the, the post-work consensus is terrified of strong men and strong gods, strong emotions.

00:26:23.220 They want to, everything needs to be tamped down.

00:26:25.640 Everything needs to be controlled.

00:26:26.840 Right.

00:26:27.360 And so, uh, the, the presence of virtuous men is a, is a real danger.

00:26:31.980 And so Jordan Peterson is pointing this out that, you know, the reason that they are attacking everything about men from, you know, hierarchy and competition to patriarchy, uh, to marriage, uh, you know, even the basic pursuits of manhood are a danger to the planet, right?

00:26:47.260 Like there's a reason that this language is always framed this way because they recognize that men are the threat.

00:26:53.980 Ultimately, adults out of juvenile males, that's why there are initiation route rights in so many cultures and you have to create, um, uh, responsible man.

00:27:07.660 And the reason for that is that it's a hell of a lot easier to be irresponsible and immature than it is to be responsible and mature.

00:27:14.980 And so men and women for men and women.

00:27:17.380 Yeah, right.

00:27:18.100 Well, the thing about women is once they have. 1.00

00:27:20.540 I'm really glad that Peterson pushes back here.

00:27:23.260 Cause French is trying to pull it to like, well, it's the same for men and women.

00:27:26.260 He's like, no, not really.

00:27:27.700 Like he gives, he's like for a second.

00:27:28.960 Well, maybe no, no, actually no.

00:27:31.120 And he pushes back.

00:27:32.280 An infant that, that kind of catalyzes the maturity and maybe their, uh, nature has a proclivity to initiate women a little more dramatically than it initiates men.

00:27:43.800 So the, the fundamental problem that cultures face is how to make men out of boys and how to stop young women from getting pregnant out of wedlock.

00:27:55.740 That's the anthropological evidence.

00:27:58.420 And so, uh, you know, Peterson just kind of lays this out.

00:28:01.800 There's nothing politically correct about this, but it's of course exactly true, right?

00:28:05.180 Like the, the, the, the purpose of a society as it is structured, uh, throughout most of history is to get men to turn their pursuits to something productive, to initiate them into a meaningful role in their society.

00:28:19.180 And the purpose of society is to keep women from getting themselves pregnant out of wedlock. 0.83

00:28:23.500 And the reason is very simple, as he points out, women have this moment, right?

00:28:30.620 You're, you, you didn't have a child and now you do, and you cannot abandon this child.

00:28:37.080 I mean, unless you just are really, really, uh, without, you know, any feeling about it, men, uh, whether, you know, no matter how we feel about this, you know, uh, imbalance in the system, men can walk away from a child.

00:28:53.480 For the most part, they're going to know that the mother's still going to be, they're going to provide in at least the most basic level of subsistence and care.

00:29:00.320 The man can usually not do the same for the child, especially very young.

00:29:04.360 And so children just at their youngest need mothers and they need them immediately.

00:29:10.100 Uh, that's, you know, the, the mother's body is literally, uh, you know, uh, designed to nourish the child.

00:29:16.260 Uh, so there's, there's just a very big gulf, uh, between, uh, the options that men and women have.

00:29:23.480 Uh, once a child is born.

00:29:24.960 So women are pretty much immediately, uh, you know, kind of baptized by this, uh, by this event.

00:29:31.560 Now, given our culture and the way that we approach, uh, motherhood, the fact that, uh, birth control and abortion are things that women can't avail themselves of. 1.00

00:29:41.920 There's less of that, but it's still always exists, right?

00:29:44.800 There's, there's still a certain level of that.

00:29:46.540 That's just biologically built in now for men.

00:29:49.600 There was some level of this for most of history because male strength was necessary to the survival of pretty much every tribe, right?

00:29:58.900 Your civilization and, and just really just fighting the wilderness, providing day to day.

00:30:03.320 You had to be involved.

00:30:04.800 Men were going to do combat. 0.96

00:30:06.620 You may not be an official soldier somewhere, but it was understood that when a violent system, a situation arose as a male, it was your job to solve the problem.

00:30:16.540 Right.

00:30:17.100 That, that was a very clear role for men throughout the years, or if a very dangerous situation, you know, you, you, someone's got to go out and fight the tiger.

00:30:25.040 Somebody has got to go out and, uh, you know, uh, hunt something and bring it back.

00:30:28.960 That was the male role, right? 0.99

00:30:30.780 Women foraged next to the child to stay close and care for the family and the homestead men struck out and put themselves in danger.

00:30:39.480 And so even if you weren't immediately going to war, even as a young man, you were going to run into some situation where you were going to be, uh, challenged physically.

00:30:51.440 And so that was some level of biological, uh, necessity for the initiation of men into culture that existed alongside with women.

00:31:01.140 Uh, now so much of that is gone right now.

00:31:04.240 It's a lot of is artificially gone.

00:31:06.360 Some of it is due to technology.

00:31:08.060 We don't need the strength, the raw physical strength, uh, all the time.

00:31:12.660 Like we used to, uh, some of it is because of the growth of the state.

00:31:15.920 We've grown the state so large that people assume that it should resolve every conflict on its own.

00:31:21.000 And so any amount of violence, uh, is, is forbidden, uh, as long, well, you know, depending on what neighborhood you're in and the level of policing.

00:31:29.860 Uh, but if you're in the wrong neighborhood, uh, and you do some level of violence, it can ruin your entire life.

00:31:35.600 Uh, I've, I've had friends who've gotten absurd, like police charges for getting in a small shoving match in a public place.

00:31:42.560 I mean, don't get me wrong.

00:31:43.680 I would like law and order.

00:31:44.780 I don't want, you know, I don't want a bunch of people just fist fighting everywhere.

00:31:48.760 Uh, but you know, there, there is a certain level of like minimal, uh, you know, pushback that was allowed before like the cops, you know, came and, you know, threw you in jail.

00:31:58.180 Uh, that just doesn't exist anymore.

00:32:00.480 And so a lot of these situations where men were testing themselves and being initiated just naturally, like the, just the momentum of the, uh, the experience would push you towards it.

00:32:11.500 That's not there anymore, but it is still there for a lot of women. 1.00

00:32:16.580 So, well, so the boys face, uh, I think a virtual conspiracy of demoralization.

00:32:26.340 And that seems to me to be, well, that's underneath the political, but the Democrats have been playing that hand madly for, I'd say, four generations.

00:32:40.460 And now they're reaping what they sowed.

00:32:43.600 So a lot of this articulation.

00:32:45.140 So Jordan is saying, look, a lot of this is, is outside of the political, but it manifests in the political.

00:32:50.680 And that's important.

00:32:52.240 We have, uh, I think a more symbiotic relationship than Jordan is necessarily addressing right away here.

00:32:58.900 Uh, but most of what he's saying is true.

00:33:01.240 Uh, a lot of, again, we don't spend enough time.

00:33:04.780 We don't think enough about how technology has changed our relationship of the sexes.

00:33:11.120 We just go directly to the gender wars. 1.00

00:33:13.100 Oh, it's all one side or the other who has demanded this.

00:33:16.880 And don't get me wrong.

00:33:17.800 Uh, both sides have made the mistakes here.

00:33:20.220 Uh, I think women have, uh, probably had the better end of that for, for quite a, quite a few decades here. 1.00

00:33:25.820 But ultimately, I think both sides have made mistakes in, in this, uh, exchange.

00:33:30.900 But we, uh, the fact that there is sides at all is a problem.

00:33:34.840 You know, men and women should not have sides.

00:33:36.680 They should not be in conflict.

00:33:37.880 They should be working together to form, uh, families, to form a society.

00:33:43.580 You know, these things are cooperative in a very important sense.

00:33:47.780 Uh, you have competition between different groups of men and women, but you should not have competition between men and women writ large.

00:33:55.600 Uh, that, that is a very toxic way to understand, uh, your society.

00:34:01.280 And the fact that this has been, as Jordan put out, is basically a conspiracy, uh, to undermine men, uh, has been very bad.

00:34:10.640 Now, again, I think a lot of it is technology.

00:34:12.360 A lot of it is the fact that technology has changed the nature of the household.

00:34:16.500 It's changed the nature of labor.

00:34:18.040 It's changing the nature of communication.

00:34:20.560 Um, it has changed the nature of dependency.

00:34:23.380 Uh, and, and that is a huge issue.

00:34:25.700 Much of the labor and security and, uh, financial and physical well-being that was provided by men, women can now default out and go to the state, right? 0.99

00:34:37.160 And it's not seen as being a failing.

00:34:40.280 It used to be if you were on welfare, that was a problem, right?

00:34:43.780 You had the, the, the insult of the welfare queen. 1.00

00:34:46.720 It's the woman who just had a bunch of children out of wedlock and rather than rely on one of their fathers to be a virtuous man and take care of him, she would prefer to just go around to whatever man she was feeling at the moment and then let the state ultimately be her real husband, right? 0.96

00:35:02.980 This, this has really been the key is turning that the state has acquired enough power and enough technology and enough wealth to be able to stand in for men in many of these situations.

00:35:13.200 It's created enough safety.

00:35:15.720 It's created enough prosperity to where women can kind of say, well, I don't think I really need what men used to provide anymore.

00:35:23.320 Um, and so I, I think that they're ultimately losing in that exchange.

00:35:27.420 I think it's very clear.

00:35:28.620 Uh, women are very unhappy. 1.00

00:35:30.560 Uh, many, you know, children are coming from more and more broken households.

00:35:34.080 We see what fatherlessness does to children.

00:35:36.740 The statistics are extremely clear and very damning, uh, that a fatherless, uh, child, a child, a child without a male role model in the household has significant damage done to them.

00:35:48.120 We know all this, but women could ignore those things in the short term because in the, or in the, uh, in the longterm, because in the short term, they were getting their physical needs met. 1.00

00:35:58.780 They were getting their security needs met their prosperity needs met.

00:36:02.560 And so they could kind of ignore that men were being undermined in a dangerous way.

00:36:06.180 You hear from the extreme left and you laid out the way there are folks in the extreme left who does just comprehensively demolish masculinity.

00:36:16.440 Now I'd say most boys have not been exposed to that in school.

00:36:19.440 That might be a very, that might, you might see that in some hyper progressive prep schools or whatever, but the, some degree of that, some element. 0.97

00:36:28.920 So this is just garbage from David here. 0.90

00:36:31.720 Sorry, but no, your boys are seeing this in school. 0.99

00:36:34.480 They're seeing this very much in school.

00:36:36.840 I know I was in the schools.

00:36:38.460 Your boys were in, right?

00:36:39.500 Like I was in the schools teaching.

00:36:41.100 I saw this all the time.

00:36:42.940 This is everywhere.

00:36:44.140 Now, is it more deranged in a college setting and some kind of wild left-wing prep school?

00:36:50.140 Yeah, absolutely.

00:36:51.220 Is it present in your school, your kids school?

00:36:53.920 People 100% and I'm sorry, but I don't care if you live in rural Tennessee or Alabama or something.

00:37:00.140 It's there too.

00:37:01.240 You know why?

00:37:01.960 Because guys like David French are there.

00:37:04.300 Okay.

00:37:04.900 Like guys, yeah, the Hicklips are there and they are pushing this. 0.98

00:37:09.520 Is it less, would I rather have my kid in a school that is rural and not having as much of these attitudes as one that is like deep in the heart of some progressive suburb and pushing this stuff out?

00:37:22.020 Yes, of course.

00:37:23.400 But is it not there?

00:37:24.800 No, absolutely not.

00:37:26.680 Absolutely not.

00:37:28.040 And so David is really just equivocating here.

00:37:31.340 Now, he'll point out later that this is going to be everywhere.

00:37:33.580 So even if it's not in your school, then your kid's going to still deal with it.

00:37:37.700 But he is fooling himself if he thinks the average male student is not experiencing this from their earliest years in public school.

00:37:45.120 One of the things that I have seen is that a lot of the people, when we talk about this, when we raise this issue, a lot of people in the commentary class and the academic class immediately denigrate a lot of the evidence about the struggles of young men and boys because they don't see in their milieu, they don't see men struggling.

00:38:15.100 Because they're in places where it might be, say, elite academia or high-level corporate work or in the military or government where men are still at the tip of the spear, at the apex of kind of American commercial and political and economic achievement.

00:38:34.660 Men are still doing quite well.

00:38:37.280 It's the big, giant, giant number of people who are not in that sort of tip of the spear who are really struggling.

00:38:46.340 And because.

00:38:47.900 So this is like half a good point by David French.

00:38:53.260 Like he was so close, right?

00:38:55.000 Like he was doing okay for a minute there.

00:38:57.860 So he rightly points out that a lot of the commentators, the social commentators, the elites inside wider society, not in the conservative sphere, but the wider society, they're in these bubbles where men are still doing relatively well.

00:39:15.300 Like they're in these very high-performing professions and they see a lot of men around them in management positions and leadership positions and CEOs and such.

00:39:27.060 And so they look at them and they say, look, men are doing just fine.

00:39:29.380 I don't know what you're talking about.

00:39:31.040 And then French kind of, you know, after making that good point, turns around and says, and well, you know, men are doing quite well in these areas.

00:39:38.220 Okay, but French doesn't address the basic reasons as to why there are always going to be men in these positions.

00:39:45.060 And this is just, I'm not going to rehash all this because this is so like 2015 YouTube, but this is just the gender pay gap argument all over again, right?

00:39:55.640 Why do you see men disproportionately in leadership positions, even when our entire society is incentivizing women, women are the majority of people graduating college.

00:40:05.660 They're getting the scholarships, they're getting the preferential hiring, you know, they're, they're getting all kinds of additional benefits.

00:40:13.120 Why is it that men keep showing up in the highest performing professions, the highest pressure positions, the management and leadership functions that are the most pressure?

00:40:26.220 And the answer is, this is how men and women are different.

00:40:30.080 Women, again, because they prefer consensus, don't like competition as much. 1.00

00:40:34.720 That doesn't mean there aren't competitive women. 1.00

00:40:36.740 Of course there are.

00:40:38.100 But by and large, when we're looking in the aggregate, right, when we're looking at large populations and trying to understand trends, women are going to be less interested in competition and more interested in getting along. 1.00

00:40:50.620 This is why corporations love women in the lower to middle class management tiers, right? 1.00

00:40:55.880 Because they're, they're very dedicated to the job.

00:40:58.580 They're very dedicated at keeping everybody pacified.

00:41:01.040 They're very vigilant and good at building, you know, cultures where people feel included.

00:41:06.340 But when it comes time to say, who's putting in the 85 hours, right?

00:41:11.160 When it comes time to say, who's making the high risk, high reward decision, who's willing to do this stuff?

00:41:17.360 It turns out it's usually men.

00:41:19.440 And that's because a lot of reasons.

00:41:21.740 One, men are wired to be more risk award oriented, more competitive to their life's likely to have to care for children, even with all of the ways in which women can avoid having children at this point. 0.90

00:41:33.440 A lot of women still have kids and they necessarily have to take time off of their career, even if it's only for a little while, even if it's criminally low, the amount of time they're spending with their kids, it's still an interruption. 1.00

00:41:46.020 It's still a distraction from their ability to dedicate them entirely to these positions that now, again, that makes no difference for the vast majority, the middle that David French is now talking about.

00:41:55.600 Right.

00:41:55.800 And he's back to a decent point in the middle here in the normal land.

00:41:59.620 And that doesn't matter.

00:42:01.100 And women are way outperforming men because of that, you know, all of the advantages they're receiving and all the disadvantages men are receiving in those areas.

00:42:08.580 But men still dominate at the top because they're the ones who are going to put out that level of effort. 0.85

00:42:14.440 They're willing to take on that level of risk.

00:42:16.480 They don't have to worry about raising children.

00:42:18.480 You know, they have a number of key features, competitiveness that are going to reliably place them into these positions.

00:42:27.640 And so, yes, to some extent, you can look in these bubbles and say men are doing well.

00:42:33.520 But if you don't understand why men will do well in those positions, no matter how you structure society, then you can't look at whether or not society is actually having an impact on young men.

00:42:45.120 And so many of us live in these bubbles.

00:42:49.540 We, a lot of people don't see it at all.

00:42:52.340 They don't see it at all.

00:42:53.220 And this is something that I think is endemic in our commentariat.

00:42:57.740 And that is, a lot of our commentariat lives and eats and breathes a very rarefied cultural air.

00:43:05.800 And they don't have any real world sense of the way that people are living their lives and the struggles they're facing outside of that milieu.

00:43:15.960 And so, when you walk into and you start talking about how these young men are struggling, a lot of times you get immediate.

00:43:24.300 I've been in these rooms where people immediately dismiss you.

00:43:27.760 Well, disproportionate number of men are CEOs.

00:43:30.160 A disproportionate number of men are in Congress.

00:43:32.780 You know, you name it.

00:43:34.420 And I'm like, I'm not talking about the tip of the spear here.

00:43:37.160 I'm talking about millions upon millions of people, regular Americans, who are struggling, and in many ways are not struggling because of you, but are you helping or are you hurting?

00:43:49.640 And I can tell you right now, if you're telling men that, for example, traditional masculinity ideology is inherently toxic, you're hurting.

00:43:58.520 You're not helping.

00:44:00.340 And again, right here, this is the best thing French does, right? 0.99

00:44:05.000 He's not great throughout this, but he is at least accurate here, right?

00:44:09.700 That you have the scenario where even suggesting that men could have problems is often dismissed out of hand by a lot of people.

00:44:17.820 Men don't have problems. 1.00

00:44:19.480 Men have always run society and will always run society. 0.99

00:44:22.920 Men have always had all the privilege and will always have the privilege.

00:44:25.660 It doesn't matter what the actual data says.

00:44:28.000 It doesn't matter if you look at the life expectancy of the average male or the happiness.

00:44:33.580 None of that matters.

00:44:35.700 It doesn't matter if you look at that in the middle there.

00:44:38.740 They're going to school less.

00:44:40.120 They're getting rejected for jobs more often.

00:44:42.500 None of that matters because somewhere there's a male CEO.

00:44:46.100 And so as long as there's more male CEOs than female CEOs or more male generals than female generals, then men are doing just fine.

00:44:53.380 And French points out that that mentality is absolutely disastrous.

00:44:56.940 I tend to have an explanation of the struggles of young men that's rooted in a lot more than ideology and politics.

00:45:04.580 It's rooted in changing economies and changing technologies.

00:45:08.760 A lot of things changed in a way that left men in a position where they would often feel like I'm not as necessary.

00:45:16.480 I'm not as needed as I was.

00:45:18.920 A lot of the raw strength, that raw physical strength, for example, that men have became less and less important to be a part of a vibrant economy.

00:45:29.040 Military is shrinking.

00:45:30.280 The U.S. military is much smaller right now than it was at the height of the Cold War.

00:45:34.140 A lot of these things created dynamics where men felt less needed.

00:45:39.920 And then you have another part of this cultural world that then...

00:45:44.280 So French is making a good point here again.

00:45:48.580 I don't know if he's the best person to deliver this point, but the content is the same nevertheless.

00:45:54.180 Technology has radically shifted society, and it has radically shifted some of the things that men used to do that were absolutely inescapable for society.

00:46:06.140 But very importantly, it's also enabled the state to do many of these things.

00:46:10.260 And so the state has taken over the role that men played.

00:46:13.920 And so women often look at men and say, well, I don't need you anymore because these things are obsolete. 0.61

00:46:20.380 But of course, they aren't obsolete.

00:46:21.920 It's not that those functions are unnecessary.

00:46:24.180 It's that the state is doing them for you.

00:46:26.560 And so you've made the state your husband instead of having a husband, which seems like a deal, right?

00:46:31.620 For some women who had terrible husbands, maybe even was a deal. 0.86

00:46:35.140 But ultimately, you are tying yourself to an entity that does not care about you.

00:46:40.140 Yes, it can provide these things in the short term.

00:46:42.480 But in the long term, you are just a number on a spreadsheet to these people.

00:46:47.360 They do not care about you.

00:46:48.860 Also, women have some terrible instincts when it comes to whether or not the state should be allowed to do things. 1.00

00:46:55.460 So, for instance, women have been the primary drivers in especially the last few decades of sympathetic acceptance of mass immigration, right?

00:47:05.600 Because it is in their nature to want to be compassionate and want to make everything copacetic and work everything out.

00:47:13.980 They don't understand conflict the way men understand conflict.

00:47:17.560 And so if they had husbands who cared about them specifically and their children, they would say, no, of course, we are not letting these violent strangers inside our country.

00:47:29.200 And because the woman's dependent on the man for all the things the state was providing, they'd be like, you know what? 0.63

00:47:33.720 Maybe I don't understand why you're saying that.

00:47:35.800 But you are in charge of this area of our household, and so I will trust you on that.

00:47:41.460 But when the state is the woman's husband, when it's the state that's providing the security that the man used to provide, and the state is interested in replacing the people in the country for its own political advantage and to drive down labor costs and everything else, the woman doesn't understand. 0.90

00:47:57.700 It doesn't click for her because she doesn't have that male aversion to allowing dangerous people into the society in the same way.

00:48:06.060 She doesn't understand that immediate threat because she's not meeting the threat with force.

00:48:10.220 The state does it for her, and the state is incentivized to allow these people in.

00:48:16.640 And so by replacing the man with the state, the woman does not get the same level of protection. 0.97

00:48:21.280 It feels like she does immediately, and then she also gets the freedom of not having to worry about what a man thinks, an individual man.

00:48:27.140 Or be loyal to that guy or anything.

00:48:29.360 She can do what she wants, but she is losing something.

00:48:33.060 She can't recognize it.

00:48:35.420 She can't put it on a spreadsheet somewhere.

00:48:38.140 She can't feel it immediately, but it will catch up with her.

00:48:41.280 And that's what we're seeing with mass immigration now.

00:48:44.060 There are a lot of women who are slowly but surely looking around and saying, you know, all these strange military-aged men don't seem to play by the rules.

00:48:54.600 They actually don't seem to care.

00:48:57.280 Now, don't get me wrong.

00:48:57.880 There are still a lot of women who are like, I don't care. 1.00

00:49:00.380 Love the refugees and the men.

00:49:01.980 But there's a growing number of women who are recognizing me and my children are not safe in this environment. 1.00

00:49:08.160 And there's something wrong.

00:49:09.460 But in many ways, it's too late, right?

00:49:11.980 And so that's the danger of replacing either gender. 0.98

00:49:15.760 You don't want to replace either sex. 1.00

00:49:17.000 You don't want to replace men or women because if you do, the artificial thing will have problems. 1.00

00:49:22.600 And the state, as an artificial husband, has a serious flaw.

00:49:27.000 Jumps on men who are feeling less needed, who are not elitist, who are not tip of the spear, or regular everyday folks who are just trying to do their best,

00:49:34.880 and are coming in and saying, well, a lot of the things that you feel or a lot of the way that you are is just bad and wrong.

00:49:42.180 And so that created this environment in the sense where I'm struggling and an awful lot of people don't care.

00:49:49.740 And that, I feel like, is just a giant cultural disaster that unfolded.

00:49:58.320 And now it's not unfolding everywhere the same.

00:50:00.280 That litany of things that you said about what people on the far left think and did.

00:50:05.520 Like my son and his peers, they never heard any of that in rural Middle Tennessee.

00:50:10.280 That is not their experience in rural Middle Tennessee.

00:50:12.320 But I will say that all the technological changes and the changes to career and the changes to all these other big cultural changes absolutely impact us everywhere.

00:50:23.980 And so young men are facing a world, even if they're in a very sort of man-friendly part of the country, which rural Tennessee is,

00:50:33.520 they're still walking into an economy and they're still walking into a culture that has been through a lot of generations of upheaval.

00:50:42.960 And in that circumstance, you really have to intentionally lean in to mentor young men into virtuous masculinity.

00:50:52.380 Now, I think that French is, again, deluding himself in believing that his son and boys in rural Tennessee or Alabama

00:50:59.860 haven't caught any of this stuff in their lives or in their schools.

00:51:04.520 That's just not the case.

00:51:05.940 It's not as bad there.

00:51:07.380 He probably doesn't notice it as much, but it certainly exists.

00:51:10.860 However, he is correct that when they enter the world at large, no matter how shielded they were by having a semi-traditional upbringing

00:51:19.160 from the worst of this stuff, it's going to hit them once they get to the job market, when they get to the dating market.

00:51:24.400 They're not going to be able to avoid this.

00:51:26.480 And this is why it's always good.

00:51:29.860 You know, when people say things like homeschool your kids, the solution is to get away from the cities.

00:51:36.060 Those are good instincts.

00:51:37.240 And when they're young, I think that's actually honest.

00:51:39.260 You know, I'm someone, I hate big cities.

00:51:41.320 I don't like living in blue areas.

00:51:43.620 I don't think it's good to put your family through that if you can avoid it.

00:51:47.340 Uh, and so in, uh, you know, in a lot of ways, I think it's decent advice.

00:51:52.200 However, that doesn't work forever.

00:51:54.220 Like your kid can't live in your small town forever.

00:51:58.680 Usually, unfortunately, they can't date inside the small town forever.

00:52:02.400 They're not going to never have interactions with the wider world.

00:52:05.220 So you do have to care what's going on at a wider level.

00:52:07.980 So even if you have protected your children from this at some level and you're fine, you know, that, that, that doesn't work.

00:52:14.000 You have to protect them early on so they can build up a possible immunity and the strength to push back.

00:52:19.720 But at some point you got to let the kid go out into the world, right?

00:52:22.640 At some point you can't protect them anymore.

00:52:24.780 So, uh, David French says, well, then we need to be intentional about these rituals.

00:52:30.200 Now I do think it's important that you do have intentional cultivation of virtue.

00:52:35.780 I think that is true.

00:52:37.420 However, French's argument is basically like all the natural ways in which we initiated men have gone away.

00:52:43.920 And he talks about this more at length, but again, it's, it's a very long discussion and I just don't have time to, to, you know, play all of it for you.

00:52:52.140 Uh, but he goes on about like, well, you know, we have to, we have to cultivate these things instead of having them organically.

00:52:57.040 And that's true to some extent, but like, actually you do need a level of organic interaction to create virtue.

00:53:04.600 Like virtue is cultivated in social roles and men need masculine soldier roles. 0.82

00:53:11.040 And they need to be allowed to be men in those roles in order to cultivate the virtue.

00:53:15.800 If you have a society that is inherently toxic to all masculinity and views all, especially traditional masculinity as something terrible,

00:53:25.680 then there won't be the roles that men need to actualize themselves.

00:53:30.160 Like men need, in order to be initiated, men need to feel that they mastered something.

00:53:35.340 Men need challenge and responsibility. 0.99

00:53:38.020 And when you have a society that is terrified of men who have power, terrified of men who have authority, terrified of men who have hierarchy,

00:53:47.260 the men cannot have cultivated virtue.

00:53:50.340 It would usually occur in their organic roles inside of societies.

00:53:55.060 However, if you don't have any organic roles in society for them, and you're just trying to intentionally set up these options,

00:54:01.120 well, it's better than nothing.

00:54:02.440 But if men can't go out after you've like set up these roles for them and then live those roles out in a manly way,

00:54:09.140 then they're never going to cultivate the virtue.

00:54:11.460 The society has to, at the end of the day, elevate men for being virtuous, just as it needs to elevate women who are virtuous.

00:54:20.620 If you can't look at a man who is virtuous in a manly way and honor him, then they won't perform that.

00:54:28.120 They won't go through that ritual.

00:54:29.940 It's not enough to just say, well, we're going to be intentional about it.

00:54:34.480 Again, that's good advice in the macro or in the micro.

00:54:37.620 It's good individual advice for you.

00:54:40.200 Yes, you should be intentional about cultivating virtue for yourself and your family.

00:54:45.080 However, at some point, like we said, they have to plug back into society.

00:54:49.200 And if society is going to beat them down for being virtuous or throw them in jail, look at Daniel Penny,

00:54:55.340 barely avoided going to jail for protecting people as a man.

00:54:59.220 Being a virtuous man almost ruined his life, right?

00:55:03.300 I mean, it did ruin his life.

00:55:04.580 Let's be clear.

00:55:05.100 His life is in many ways ruined, but it almost completely destroyed his life.

00:55:09.660 And you can't look at a man and say, you need to intentionally cultivate virtue and then throw

00:55:13.800 him in jail for being virtuous.

00:55:15.340 That is not going to work long-term.

00:55:19.400 It doesn't happen by osmosis.

00:55:21.240 It doesn't happen by inertia.

00:55:23.180 It happens through intention.

00:55:25.500 And the best people who do this, do it.

00:55:27.340 I want you to succeed in the right way.

00:55:29.460 The worst voices are, just go get what's yours, young man.

00:55:33.220 That's the toxic message that gets, that indulges the worst elements of our nature.

00:55:38.660 The message that says that here, train you up in a way that is much more akin to, you know, the Kipling

00:55:45.580 poem if, than sort of any kind of like blind ambition or greed or sexual conquest or sexual exploitation.

00:55:55.340 But if you're building people in virtuous masculinity, I think that that is the, that's the oasis in the

00:56:02.140 desert, whereas that toxic exploit, you know, go get what's yours, uh, sexual prowess, uh, financial 0.97

00:56:11.220 accomplishment is the be all end all.

00:56:13.280 That's the mirage.

00:56:14.500 That's the illusion.

00:56:15.320 And that just leads them deeper into the desert.

00:56:17.420 Well, we should.

00:56:18.620 So Jordan Peterson is going to push back on him here.

00:56:21.220 And rightly so, uh, you know, the, the, obviously neither of them are looking for the Andrew

00:56:26.180 Tates.

00:56:26.540 That's what they're worried about.

00:56:27.420 They're worried that Andrew Tate will come to define masculinity and to be fair, uh, I am no fan of Andrew

00:56:33.540 Tate, right? 0.97

00:56:34.120 Like, uh, like I, Andrew Tate is a gross pimp, you know, like, uh, no, he's a Muslim and no, absolutely 1.00

00:56:40.380 not. 0.99

00:56:40.680 Like not a good person.

00:56:42.200 Uh, but the fact that they're constantly afraid of guys like Andrew Tate says something, right?

00:56:48.120 And, and David French as well, you got to cultivate this virtuous masculinity and then they won't, guys

00:56:54.140 won't become Andrew Tate, but that is really missing the problem.

00:56:57.200 Right.

00:56:57.760 This is, this is always what people do.

00:56:59.760 They're like, Oh, what about the reaction?

00:57:01.580 What about the overreaction?

00:57:02.880 What if people overreact?

00:57:04.080 That'll be the bad thing.

00:57:05.180 So like, if we're, you know, if we suppress all the Christians, what if the Christians come

00:57:08.940 back and demand Christian nationalism? 0.98

00:57:10.360 If we, if we, you know, uh, call white people evil and hate them forever, what if white people 0.97

00:57:15.140 start deciding that they want to start fighting for themselves? 0.92

00:57:17.540 If we attack men constantly and we insult men constantly, what if men start, you know, standing

00:57:22.340 up for themselves and, and, and, and there's a backlash.

00:57:24.800 It's always about the backlash.

00:57:26.200 It's never about the evil being done to these groups.

00:57:30.220 It's always about, Oh, the terrible things that could happen if these groups recognize

00:57:35.680 that they are being treated poorly.

00:57:37.840 Right.

00:57:38.260 And that's what David French is doing here.

00:57:39.900 Well, we got to watch out because if we don't get in there and make virtuous men by telling

00:57:44.200 them how to be men, then they'll turn into Andrew Tate's and there'll be a bit, a terrible

00:57:48.520 backlash.

00:57:48.860 And that's true.

00:57:50.400 But the problem is you, you can't fight Andrew Tate.

00:57:53.320 Okay.

00:57:53.720 No, sorry.

00:57:54.340 But no young man is looking at David French and Andrew Tate and saying, you know what?

00:57:59.060 I'm going the David French route.

00:58:00.700 That is a 0% game, right?

00:58:03.100 That is a 0% game.

00:58:04.740 And the reason is really simple.

00:58:07.520 David French is not looking to change the system that attacks young men, that harms

00:58:12.120 young men.

00:58:13.360 His, his solution is almost entirely get ahold of young men early and treat them, teach them

00:58:20.000 to be virtuous.

00:58:20.480 And again, you should teach young men to be virtuous.

00:58:23.920 That is a correct part of the solution.

00:58:26.960 But if you do not fix a system in which men are attacked and denigrated for being men and

00:58:32.720 being virtuous men, then they will go to the Andrew Tate's.

00:58:37.600 You have to understand being virtuous means sacrificing on behalf of others.

00:58:43.040 But if others are not willing to sacrifice then on behalf of you, or they're not willing 0.99

00:58:48.580 to honor your sacrifice, then you are just a sucker. 0.99

00:58:52.720 You are getting nothing out of that. 0.99

00:58:55.040 You are sublimating yourself and receiving nothing in return.

00:58:59.480 And you cannot do that long-term in a society and ask only some portion of the society to

00:59:05.440 do that.

00:59:07.080 You can't have a situation where everything is men need to be virtuous.

00:59:12.000 Men need to discipline themselves. 1.00

00:59:14.060 Men need to do this and that, but women owe them nothing. 1.00

00:59:18.100 Society owes them nothing, right?

00:59:19.820 You can't do that.

00:59:21.160 There has to be a give and take.

00:59:22.620 Sacrifice has to be both ways.

00:59:25.860 And if you do not recognize that you are asking everything of the men and nothing of

00:59:31.160 the women, then you will set your men up for failure. 0.97

00:59:34.980 You have to have virtuous men and women.

00:59:38.000 Virtuous men have duties to women and virtuous women have duties to men. 0.77

00:59:43.660 They owe them something.

00:59:45.320 If you're just pointing out and saying, well, men, you need to be less like Andrew Tate and

00:59:50.680 oh, well, we're not going to really say anything that women owe you anything for behaving that 0.95

00:59:55.020 way.

00:59:55.680 They're going to go act like Andrew Tate because guess what?

00:59:57.820 Andrew Tate at least has money and has women.

01:00:00.020 And you can't tell men who are watching women flock to, you know, hyper aggressive guys who

01:00:08.640 are just going out and imposing their will on the world and making money.

01:00:11.560 You can't, can't look at them and be like, oh, well, I see you, you, you, I see you notice

01:00:17.440 that's working for all these other men and the thing I'm offering you is not working at

01:00:20.980 all, but you need to keep doing what I'm doing just because I said it was virtuous.

01:00:24.380 That's not going to work.

01:00:26.900 You need a society in which virtue is rewarded.

01:00:29.920 Yes.

01:00:30.200 Virtue is important.

01:00:30.980 I agree 100% that you should have virtuous masculinity, but virtuous masculinity has to

01:00:36.220 come with rewards.

01:00:37.660 It has to be in a society of virtue where women are also required to deliver on this promise. 1.00

01:00:44.600 So the problem with David French here and, and, and Jordan Peterson, you know, it will

01:00:55.260 push back on him some on this, which is good.

01:00:57.460 It is just like, you're only providing a solution where it's all on men.

01:01:02.200 And yes, a lot of responsibility will always be on men, but you're not providing any actual

01:01:06.800 incentive structure for them to do this.

01:01:08.480 You're just telling them, here's all the duties you have to sacrifice yourself and sublimate

01:01:12.800 yourself.

01:01:13.180 But nobody owes you anything.

01:01:14.880 Don't expect anything from women. 1.00

01:01:16.400 Don't expect anything from society.

01:01:17.840 We're not giving the same speech to women. 0.99

01:01:19.660 It's just for you.

01:01:20.880 And that's not going to win in a world of Andrew Tate's.

01:01:23.740 Talk about that a little bit.

01:01:25.420 I think from a psychological perspective, because there are real reasons why that more psychopathic

01:01:37.160 end of the so-called manosphere has its attractiveness.

01:01:41.840 So back in 2016, when my objection to.

01:01:54.180 Sorry, I left myself on mute there for a second.

01:01:55.800 So Jordan Peterson acknowledges here.

01:01:58.120 Look, there's a reason that you are getting this pushback right there.

01:02:02.580 Like, and this is good because I don't hear him say a lot of this.

01:02:05.760 You know, he said there's a reason that Andrew Tate's are winning.

01:02:07.860 There's a reason that this pushback is existing.

01:02:11.520 And we have to acknowledge that.

01:02:13.080 We have to understand that.

01:02:14.180 And if we avoid that part of the conversation, then we're really doing a disservice to these

01:02:20.620 young men that we're trying to mentor.

01:02:21.860 Because if you're just running around and screaming, don't be Andrew Tate, don't be Andrew Tate.

01:02:26.220 And then you're just offering them a losing strategy that will get them nowhere.

01:02:29.920 Then you're just destroying their lives.

01:02:32.000 You need to address the problem.

01:02:34.380 You know, in the micro yourself personally, become virtuous, become worthy.

01:02:38.840 But you also need a macro solution for the fact that society is actively hurting virtuous

01:02:44.400 men, because if you don't, they're, of course, going to go to the guy who's at least getting

01:02:48.580 something out of the deal.

01:02:49.860 If you if the deal is you get nothing and you just have to be virtuous and then you get

01:02:54.700 beat up all day and blamed as the world's problem, then they're not going to go to you.

01:02:59.360 They're going to go to the guy who's at least getting women and money out of the deal. 1.00

01:03:02.580 My liberal government's utter stupidity launched me into the public eye. 0.99

01:03:08.800 I told the Senate and the public in general that this conspiracy, so to speak, to weakened 1.00

01:03:22.120 men would produce a very toxic and fascist like backlash.

01:03:28.320 Now, so again, I well, I'm glad that that Jordan pushed back on the general idea that

01:03:36.900 there's just no reason that, you know, meant that men are going to like an Andrew Tate.

01:03:42.220 There's no reason there's a backlash.

01:03:44.520 You know, he did say, no, there's definitively a reason there's a reason this works.

01:03:48.220 We should acknowledge that.

01:03:50.020 Unfortunately, he goes right back to this trope of like, but the worst possible thing would

01:03:54.240 be that, like, there's this fascism, right?

01:03:56.480 Like the men come back and then there's the fascism.

01:03:59.820 Once again, it's not about the evils that are being visited on the people who are actually

01:04:05.300 getting hurt.

01:04:06.080 It's the fact that they might actually recognize that they're being hurt and that they might

01:04:10.780 respond in a way that corrects the problem.

01:04:13.420 And understand, if the problem gets bad enough, then the correction must be severe, right?

01:04:19.120 If you are actually worried about the worst possible outcome, the extremist man, the big

01:04:24.980 fascism, whatever, then the answer is always to take more extreme measures now.

01:04:30.620 You know, the strong man, these people always come into power because the more moderate people

01:04:35.460 did not take significant action.

01:04:37.360 They wanted to hedge their bets.

01:04:38.380 They were worried about the consequences of this, and so they never actually remedied the

01:04:43.780 situation.

01:04:44.480 And I fear that though Jordan and David are both putting forward, at least to some extent,

01:04:51.500 and acknowledging the problems that men face in society, they are not ready to take the

01:04:57.020 requisite action to prevent the exact thing that they're worried about.

01:05:02.120 And because they can't prevent the thing that they're worried about, it will come inevitably,

01:05:06.740 right?

01:05:06.900 They're making it almost inevitable that the very thing they're worried about will manifest

01:05:11.040 itself because they don't have the courage to truly address the issues now.

01:05:15.720 Again, I think Jordan is doing a better job than David for sure, but neither of them are

01:05:20.140 in a place where they're saying, we have to radically reform the way society operates in

01:05:25.100 order to allow men to be masculine and have their virtue acknowledged.

01:05:29.580 I don't think any of them are really ready to take the steps for that.

01:05:32.080 One of the things that man I admire greatly, that psychologist Carl Jung pointed out, was

01:05:39.660 that you can be socialized into a conformist persona.

01:05:44.800 And the way out of that is through the dark side, so to speak, to incorporate elements of the psyche

01:05:53.560 that haven't been, that have been set to the side in the domestication effort.

01:06:02.060 hyper-domesticated young men are going to find hyper-aggressive young men attractive as role models.

01:06:11.480 And the reason for that is they need that aggression.

01:06:15.760 And the fact that that's attractive is just an indication of how much demoralization has taken place.

01:06:23.140 Exactly, exactly.

01:06:25.600 This is so important.

01:06:26.680 This is so important.

01:06:28.000 If you are someone who is seriously worried, oh, the Andrew Tates are coming, the Andrew Tates are coming,

01:06:32.660 like if you're that person, the answer is taking the issues that young men are facing seriously

01:06:39.900 and being ready to address them in a pretty radical way.

01:06:43.640 Because as he points out here, if you have just overly domesticated a large percentage of the male population,

01:06:50.220 they are going to look for the most aggressive alternative because they need it.

01:06:55.260 Because they have been deprived of all those aspects of their character.

01:06:59.620 You can socially engineer men for a time, right?

01:07:04.440 You can get away with a certain amount of social engineering for a time.

01:07:07.480 But eventually, men will feel the inadequacy.

01:07:10.780 They won't be able to articulate it, and they'll be extremely frustrated about it,

01:07:15.720 and they'll channel that aggression in the wrong direction.

01:07:18.200 But the aggression will be real and for a good reason.

01:07:21.400 Because they have been robbed of something that is core to their nature.

01:07:25.320 And so because men have not had the opportunity to properly develop and channel and use aggression,

01:07:31.680 it builds up.

01:07:32.940 And that effeminization of the men, that emasculization of the men,

01:07:36.820 eventually comes with a huge backlash.

01:07:39.340 Because they will see any level of masculinity, especially a lot of aggression,

01:07:44.900 as the thing they're lacking, and they will be drawn to those people.

01:07:49.140 And, you know, again, I think Jordan is doing a much better job than David at this.

01:07:55.280 But neither of these guys are ultimately probably the guys who will inspire men to understand

01:08:01.220 and master their aggression, right?

01:08:03.240 I think there are guys out there that do that.

01:08:08.520 You know, there are guys who are former Navy SEALs and, you know, have mastered combat and confrontation

01:08:16.020 in a very real way and can deliver that in a virtuous manner.

01:08:19.660 But, you know, obviously, that's not the role either of these guys play.

01:08:23.860 And that's okay.

01:08:24.540 Not every guy needs to be, you know, SEAL Team 6.

01:08:27.640 I certainly wasn't.

01:08:28.940 But you need to understand that those guys need to be put front and center.

01:08:33.040 And they need to have real solutions to the overarching problem.

01:08:36.220 If you're just putting kind of the David Frenches of the world in front of men and saying,

01:08:41.480 you know, you need to be virtuous, probably.

01:08:44.240 I'm not going to change anything about society.

01:08:46.820 We're not going to reward that in any way.

01:08:48.340 We're still going to kind of denigrate you and tell you that you have a secondary role

01:08:52.320 and no one's going to need to respect you.

01:08:54.520 You know, you're not going to have a wife that respects you or anything.

01:08:57.180 Don't expect that. 0.97

01:08:57.840 Don't be crazy.

01:08:58.880 But, you know, you should probably be virtuous. 0.67

01:09:01.220 Like, that's not selling anyone.

01:09:02.860 Of course, they're going to go to Andrew Tate after that.

01:09:04.640 Because you can't demoralize young men without devastating young women. 0.55

01:09:08.720 You know, I don't know if you know this, but you know in the West now that

01:09:11.780 more than 50% of women at the age of 30 have no children.

01:09:17.220 It's more than 50%, right?

01:09:19.520 Half of them will never have a child.

01:09:22.500 And so on the one hand, we have the absolute radical pathological demoralization of young men.

01:09:28.880 And then we have the insistence that although all that masculinity is toxic,

01:09:34.640 and patriarchal, that's precisely what young women should pursue. 1.00

01:09:40.820 And so they pursue that in some ways displacing young men, but more detrimentally for themselves,

01:09:48.260 squandering their youth on service to the evil corporate world, bizarrely enough, given that it's a leftist trope,

01:09:56.160 and the demolition of their, not only of their fertility, but the probability of their participation in the long-term partnership of marriage.

01:10:08.900 So, I mean, you can hardly imagine a more toxic brew than that.

01:10:14.580 And how we got here is quite the bloody miracle.

01:10:17.900 The neighborhood...

01:10:18.900 So, here Jordan makes a point that is probably going to be the least popular with, you know,

01:10:26.040 the least socially acceptable, but one that is incredibly important.

01:10:28.820 And I know, look, I'm not here trying to be like, you know, at the end of the day, women are the real victims. 0.97

01:10:35.160 But, you know, his point is that ultimately, miserable men make for miserable women. 0.90

01:10:41.140 We can't... 0.98

01:10:41.820 We are not separated from each other.

01:10:43.940 We cannot have men versus women and be an actual civilization. 1.00

01:10:47.740 That's not how it works.

01:10:48.780 You'll destroy yourselves.

01:10:49.880 And so, pretending that you can address just the problems of women and ignore men or put them to the side and that'll be fine, that's a disaster. 1.00

01:10:58.620 You're going to destroy your society.

01:11:01.160 Also, when you do this and you tell women, oh, everything about a man is toxic, everything about patriarchy and masculinity was toxic,

01:11:09.920 but also, basically, feminism says being feminine is the problem, right? 1.00

01:11:16.500 Like, feminism is the most anti-feminine thing you can imagine. 1.00

01:11:19.020 They hate women's natural behavior. 1.00

01:11:21.980 They hate femininity. 1.00

01:11:23.960 They want to destroy that and they want to make women into just bad men. 0.99

01:11:28.620 And so, his point here is like, okay, so you take these women, you tell them that the men in their lives are ugly and failures and dangerous and they're the reason for all the bad things in the world. 0.92

01:11:38.480 You should just shut them out of society. 0.85

01:11:40.340 And now that those men are shut out of society, now go be men. 0.94

01:11:43.720 Like, that's all that matters.

01:11:44.880 Go work in a corporation.

01:11:46.320 Go get jobs.

01:11:47.240 Don't worry about family.

01:11:48.200 Don't worry about raising kids.

01:11:49.660 Don't worry about all these things that have traditionally given women meaning throughout life.

01:11:53.600 Don't worry about being social coordinators.

01:11:55.820 Don't worry about making your neighborhood better.

01:11:58.120 Don't worry about being the social fabric.

01:12:00.400 Just go out there and be men. 0.89

01:12:02.840 And so, men are miserable and they're put in a corner and then women are put out there and said, go be men and they hate that too because of course they do.

01:12:11.840 And now they're miserable in their jobs trying to be men, but they're also miserable when they come home because they can't find any men worth being with.

01:12:19.460 Because even if they are okay, even if they are relatively okay with working in a cubicle and being in a job, they still want a man who makes more.

01:12:27.920 They still want a man who provides more. 0.99

01:12:29.880 They still want a man who's more successful and has climbed the hierarchy higher than them.

01:12:32.740 They still want a man who can allow them to basically kind of take off their job and raise a kid for a few years and these kind of things.

01:12:39.300 And that's how it works for most women in these situations. 1.00

01:12:42.400 And so, they just become more and more miserable because they've already defined men as the worst thing in the world.

01:12:49.440 Then they've taken on this faux masculinity to live in a world that is foreign to them. 0.93

01:12:54.680 And then when they come back from that, even if they've adapted to it and somehow found meaning in it, they can't find a man anyway because they've basically turned all of them into just completely useless to them.

01:13:05.040 Everything about men is now just completely insufficient because, well, the woman has her own money and she can set her own destiny. 0.99

01:13:16.000 And so, she needs a man who's going to make more and provide her more if he's even going to be worth her time.

01:13:21.160 And so, what you get is this just deeply dysfunctional behavior where families become impossible to form.

01:13:27.340 There were a lot of women. 1.00

01:13:30.000 Oh, I should say, I jumped here to about the end, to near the end of this review because it kind of goes together with this point.

01:13:38.540 He's going to talk about what the lack of women being home does to society at large. 1.00

01:13:44.240 Who were still at home in the neighborhoods.

01:13:46.060 And so, the neighborhoods were established in known territory because they were regulated by a network of interconnected women. 1.00

01:14:03.520 And so, when you had your kids outside to play, outside wasn't hostile territory defined by the presence of no one but strangers.

01:14:13.020 It was territory defined by the watchful eye of a loose network of women. 1.00

01:14:19.200 And that all disappeared in really in the 1980s.

01:14:22.900 And it isn't obvious how that can be put back.

01:14:25.820 Like, the question is, why did people start to become fearful of the neighborhood given that there was no radical increase in the probability that your child was going to be abducted by, you know, some psychopath?

01:14:41.000 That's a really good question.

01:14:47.080 Why, yes, it is a really good question.

01:14:48.720 Now, David does not provide a good answer for it.

01:14:51.060 But, again, we don't have time to get into every one of his meandering answers.

01:14:54.700 The point is that Jordan Peterson is offering a very good problem, a very good commentary.

01:15:00.920 A lot of people now look and they say, why can't children roam the neighborhood anymore?

01:15:05.360 Why can't children go outside?

01:15:07.000 Why do we feel so unsafe throughout our society?

01:15:09.640 Why is this scenario where, you know, women are just not, you know, why do we have this issue where we just can't let people go outside and we feel unsafe? 0.96

01:15:20.620 And the answer is multifaceted.

01:15:23.040 One of them is, like he says, this lack of network, this lack of women at home.

01:15:28.120 When we took women and we just threw them in the workplace, everyone was like, well, you know, they're not really doing anything at home anyway. 1.00

01:15:35.300 You know, and that's just insane.

01:15:37.300 Like, yes, they were raising their children and that itself is extremely important.

01:15:41.700 But their constant presence in society provided a safety net.

01:15:45.600 There was a level of vigilance and understanding.

01:15:47.700 There was a true community.

01:15:49.880 You walked out the door and, yes, your child was away from your house.

01:15:53.240 But you knew Susie down the street and you knew Cindy and you knew Laura and you knew that as your child traveled from from block to block, that there would be a network of women who are staying at home, who are there looking out their window.

01:16:07.840 And if someone randomly grabbed your kid, if someone ran up and was beating up your kid, if something, you know, someone was following your kid, there would be people who knew your kid, knew you, knew that person was a stranger and would say, no, something is wrong and would get themselves involved.

01:16:24.620 They would feel like they had the right to involve themselves.

01:16:28.340 But today, what we've done is we removed all those women from the workplace and we put the kids into school as a mandatory daycare or, you know, they had people hire immigrants to watch their kids. 1.00

01:16:39.100 Now, first, that is just insufficient.

01:16:41.100 There is nothing near as good.

01:16:42.920 You can't just replace a mom with some random person from a foreign country who happens to make sure they don't burn their hands on the stove. 0.99

01:16:50.160 That is insufficient to actually raise a child.

01:16:53.260 But on top of this, you remove that constant presence, that network, that social mechanism that allows you to feel safe and have your child transverse the neighborhood.

01:17:03.420 Now, what they didn't mention for obvious reasons was also that neighborhoods have diversified and people used to have an understanding.

01:17:10.500 I knew everyone in my neighborhood.

01:17:13.000 I knew all the people down my street.

01:17:15.220 I knew everyone.

01:17:16.440 There wasn't this constant churn of new people coming in, strangers, strangers from different, you know, societies with different expectations who I didn't immediately trust, who maybe don't even speak the language, don't have the same morals as me.

01:17:29.860 I know I'm not in a society that is close knit in this, you know, set of traditions and moral understandings and language.

01:17:37.280 And so am I going to go out there?

01:17:39.580 Am I going to put my kid out there?

01:17:41.240 What if some man who walks up and doesn't speak English is assaulting my kid?

01:17:45.280 Right.

01:17:45.680 Like, can I can I communicate with that person if I try to stop them?

01:17:49.640 Will I be considered a racist?

01:17:51.040 And so all of a sudden, it's not even worth going out and trying to interact and protect in your society.

01:17:56.740 And now I don't want my kid out there because, like, if there's a confrontation and I talk back to someone who's the wrong color. 0.99

01:18:02.740 I mean, everyone saw what happened to Shiloh Hendricks right now.

01:18:05.960 Maybe you don't think that's the right response to that scenario.

01:18:09.420 But the fact that, you know, she pushed back against someone and threw an insult at them when they were the wrong color of skin. 1.00

01:18:17.180 And, you know, her life could be ruined. 0.95

01:18:19.280 Right.

01:18:19.740 Same same thing.

01:18:20.920 Everyone's out there.

01:18:21.740 You know, you look at Daniel Penny.

01:18:22.860 He goes out and he protects society against a man.

01:18:25.580 But because that man is black, Daniel Penny almost goes to jail for being a true virtuous man. 0.99

01:18:31.840 Right.

01:18:32.120 So you look at the society and you look at the diversity and you say, is it worth putting my kid out there?

01:18:37.300 Is it worth putting myself out there?

01:18:38.640 Am I going to continue to go out into that society and regularly interact with people when at any moment my life could end because I interacted with someone of the wrong color who gets the magical shield that protects them from any kind of criticism?

01:18:51.160 And so for all of these reasons, we are less and less able to interact, which means we are less and less able to have defined roles, which means we are less and less able to develop virtue, which is exactly the solution that David and Jordan are trying to reach.

01:19:06.140 Virtuous masculinity.

01:19:08.200 So, like I said, you know, this discussion is far from perfect.

01:19:12.320 We've obviously picked out many of the problems, but it is not the train wreck that I thought it was.

01:19:16.820 I thought it was going to walk into this thing and it was just going to be on fire.

01:19:19.400 Um, and, and mostly due to Jordan Peterson, a lot of it was saved again, not perfect.

01:19:25.800 There are some assumptions here that are wrong.

01:19:28.480 Um, but this is better than I've seen Jordan in a while.

01:19:31.380 I'm glad that this was not the disaster.

01:19:33.260 I thought it was again, would I tell you to go watch this?

01:19:36.340 No, but, uh, you know, I'm glad some, some strong points were made at least in these different moments.

01:19:42.680 All right, guys, let's go to the questions of the people here real quick. 0.98

01:19:46.480 Uh, tiny stupid demon says, let me get rid of this real quick. 1.00

01:19:52.760 Uh, given the hyper accelerating libertarian to NRX pipeline, uh, I'm willing to bet money 0.99

01:19:59.020 on some combination of Rogan or Peterson interviewing Yarvin by the end of the year.

01:20:03.380 Uh, so for those who don't know, uh, you know, I made the joke that, uh, Elon Musk, because

01:20:09.220 he was already moved from the, like the libertarian ish phase.

01:20:11.980 Uh, and then I'm going to start my own political party phase.

01:20:14.480 He's kind of on this libertarian to Neo reactionary pipeline that we've seen so often.

01:20:19.300 And I was joking, well, it's about like three years, uh, that he'll probably end up there.

01:20:23.380 And then, uh, he was arguing with Nick land on the internet, uh, like last week.

01:20:28.020 And I was like, okay, maybe I should have shortened that timeline quite a bit.

01:20:30.580 And now, uh, we got a story today that Elon Musk was consulting Curtis Yarvin about his

01:20:36.440 third party.

01:20:37.340 Uh, so who knows?

01:20:38.640 Uh, yeah, it could very well be the case that Curtis Yarvin will already be, you know, will

01:20:43.100 be, who's already been in the New York times and Tucker Carlson and such, but yeah, he,

01:20:46.880 he might even be interviewed on something like a Rogan here soon.

01:20:51.680 Floor Henry says in school, I could not concentrate with pretty girls around still can't. 1.00

01:20:55.820 I mean, you know, we joke about that, but that is a real thing, right?

01:20:59.020 Like once, especially you hit a certain age, uh, obviously the hormones take over.

01:21:04.340 And, uh, even, you know, in high school, obviously famously, uh, you know, you have met boys and

01:21:09.800 girls having difficulty controlling themselves. 1.00

01:21:11.840 You're just going to be distracted.

01:21:13.360 You're going to, right?

01:21:14.680 This is why we have to have dress codes is why we have to have all these issues surrounding,

01:21:18.560 uh, male and female interactions.

01:21:20.680 Uh, and so it, it, there are a lot of good arguments for why, uh, sexism,

01:21:25.820 sex specific, uh, education works, why it makes more sense. 0.79

01:21:31.960 Now, everyone's not going to support that.

01:21:33.980 I understand.

01:21:35.180 Uh, but ultimately I think that, you know, the fact that, uh, boys and girls are going

01:21:40.300 to be distracted quite severely by each other after a certain age is a real argument.

01:21:44.160 And, and it doesn't make sense if you, if your first goal really is the most effective

01:21:48.880 education of children, uh, you know, boys and girls schools do have serious upsides.

01:21:55.820 Mr. Dash here says it's tough to watch modern Peterson.

01:22:00.520 He wasn't prepared for fame.

01:22:02.020 He's, uh, uh, he's how a moderately right-wing boomer with a fried brain, his 12 rules aged

01:22:07.980 poorly.

01:22:08.580 You know, again, I'm somebody who benefited quite a bit from Jordan Peterson's work at

01:22:13.060 a certain time in my life.

01:22:14.360 And so I'm always going to have a soft spot spot for Jordan Peterson.

01:22:18.580 I still enjoy some of his work though.

01:22:21.800 I will say it has fallen off.

01:22:23.760 I think quite precipitously.

01:22:25.280 I think that's mainly due to the grind that he's required to do as a content producer.

01:22:30.060 This is a guy who's used to being a university professor and having a lot of time to think

01:22:34.320 and ruin him ruminate and, uh, develop ideas before he has to like produce serious work

01:22:39.100 and content.

01:22:39.820 And now he has to like do this constantly.

01:22:41.840 And I, I think that that along with the fame and the social media battles and obviously

01:22:46.400 his drug challenges has unfortunately put him in a place where, uh, he doesn't, his,

01:22:50.980 his work is not consistent in quality.

01:22:53.260 He still cranks out some gyms from time to time, but it certainly is buried under a larger

01:22:58.380 set of work that is not always as impressive.

01:23:00.400 Elijah time and says, uh, let's flip French's concern around.

01:23:04.520 If disaffected men did not flock to Andrew Tate, their concerns would be safely ignored.

01:23:08.460 Absolutely vile.

01:23:09.740 It's hard to argue with man.

01:23:11.260 It really is.

01:23:12.160 It's hard to argue with, uh, you know, I, again, I don't think Andrew Tate is a role model

01:23:17.380 people should pursue.

01:23:18.760 Um, I think there are serious problems again, like just from the, the most basic moral standpoint

01:23:23.420 of a guy who's out there pimping, uh, people and, and, and it is a Muslim in theory,

01:23:28.240 uh, you know, venerating that stuff.

01:23:30.020 You're like, I, I, I just, I can't, I can't endorse any of that.

01:23:33.280 And I just denounce it roundly.

01:23:35.000 That said, uh, there is a point at which people are correct for seeking a radical solution

01:23:41.980 to their problems, right?

01:23:44.520 Do you want to, you want a society that addresses those problems earlier, but there is a point

01:23:50.260 at which you do actually have to, I mean, this is the whole Reagan speech, right?

01:23:54.220 Do the conservative quoting a Reagan thing, right?

01:23:57.320 But like the time for choosing, like, should Christ have refused the cross, the cross should 0.91

01:24:02.100 Moses have stayed in Egypt?

01:24:03.900 Should, should the, you know, uh, boys not have, uh, you know, protected the, the, the,

01:24:08.760 the homeland and the, in the revolutionary war, there is a point at which things get to

01:24:13.800 be too much.

01:24:14.480 Now, I really hope we don't get there.

01:24:15.820 And I really hope that we are in a society that can, uh, you know, arrest the slide and

01:24:20.920 not turn, uh, you know, Andrew Tate masculinity into like the, the, the default that is necessary

01:24:27.560 to get anywhere, but eventually you will get there.

01:24:31.820 And if you're worried in any way about getting there, but you're not addressing these problems,

01:24:35.320 then I can't take you seriously.

01:24:36.800 Uh, because Andrew Tate is eventually the answer.

01:24:39.940 He's not the answer now, but he will be.

01:24:43.240 And, and, and, you know, you know, people, Oh, I'm worried about, you know, the, uh, Franco

01:24:47.720 good man.

01:24:48.800 At some reason, at some point, Franco is the good option because he's better than communism.

01:24:54.060 So I get you, I get, there are some extremes that you don't want to go to, but if that

01:24:58.540 is something you are really concerned about, then you better get your stuff together now and

01:25:02.420 you better be willing to take radical action now because someone will take radical action

01:25:06.360 later and it will be much worse than you, than the stuff you're playing, but that's

01:25:10.760 not the fault of the people who take it because you let it get there.

01:25:14.400 Like at some point, the radical action is the solution.

01:25:17.000 So if you want another solution, you better initiate it before we get there.

01:25:21.820 All right, guys, I'm going to go ahead and wrap this up.

01:25:24.740 I want to thank everybody for coming by as always.

01:25:27.100 If it's your first time on the channel, please make sure to subscribe, click the bell,

01:25:30.540 notifications, all that.

01:25:31.560 So, you know, when we go live, if you'd like to get these broadcasts as podcasts, make sure

01:25:35.140 to subscribe to the Orr McIntyre show on your favorite podcast platform.

01:25:38.740 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - July 09, 2025

Responding to Jordan Peterson and David French on Masculinity ｜ 7⧸9⧸25

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