The Auron MacIntyre Show - Rod Dreher Attacks JD Vance and the New Right ｜ Guest： J. Burden ｜ 7⧸29⧸26

00:00:00.000 hey everybody how's it going thanks for joining me this afternoon i've got a great stream with

00:00:13.960 a great guest that i think you're really going to enjoy before we begin today i just want to

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00:01:11.160 40 to get that 40 off and all those back issues today all right guys so rod drear was on jeremy

00:01:21.080 boring's podcast recently if you haven't been familiar jeremy boring left the daily wire

00:01:26.060 he started his own podcast and uh well it's kind of been um basically a place where he just kind

00:01:32.860 of attacks the new right in general anybody who doesn't agree with kind of uh the traditional

00:01:37.540 establishment conservative line is the devil and we're going to kind of bring a uh smattering of

00:01:43.320 people on but you know maybe it's uh uh what's her name uh jay the the blonde who's always on

00:01:50.320 talking about how evil the right is now that she fell out uh lauren southern lauren southern that's

00:01:55.080 it uh maybe it's i would say aren't yeah not that does not narrow it down yeah yeah yeah

00:02:01.000 not not down but anyway uh jerry tends to bring on a bunch of people who are suddenly disillusioned

00:02:06.760 with the new right uh and uh you know are there to make hay uh if you're one of these people who's

00:02:12.380 getting brought on to shows that have a strange new respect for you just remember you're probably

00:02:16.440 a tool of established powers who are trying to discredit the movement everyone's a part of i

00:02:20.940 guess some of these people know that and are more than happy to participate i think some people are

00:02:24.240 roped in either way this has basically been the theme of his show uh recently rod drear is on rod

00:02:29.880 is kind of famous for uh calling the uh you know his shot on kind of where the conservative movement

00:02:35.440 is going and then kind of denouncing everybody uh after the fact so uh he does a very similar

00:02:41.780 thing here. We're going to watch some of this episode together, but joining me today, of course,

00:02:46.620 is my Rod Dreher expert, Jay Burden. Thank you so much for coming on, man. Yeah, Aaron, thank you

00:02:51.900 so much for having me on. Look, this is one of my favorite topics, not because I have anything

00:02:58.060 personally against the guys involved, but because this interview and Rod Dreher in particular is

00:03:05.640 sort of the perfect example of many of our critiques of the conservative movement. Dreher

00:03:12.180 rose to popularity largely because he accurately made a series of predictions and diagnoses about

00:03:20.260 the ascendant woke left. And that caused many people to, well, look to him and say, wow, this

00:03:26.340 guy has some special insight. But what we saw and what we have seen in many, many cases is that many

00:03:33.820 of the opponents of the so-called woke left are not real opponents. They have certain surface

00:03:41.300 level qualms, but when it comes to actually solving these problems, solving these deep issues,

00:03:45.960 they get very uncomfortable very fast, and they are unwilling to shed a certain amount of social

00:03:53.120 respectability, to bear a certain amount of criticism from their stated enemies to actually

00:04:02.660 make a change. And so we see this sort of good conservatism, quote unquote, that is very easy

00:04:09.120 to point out in even more establishment figures. David French is a good example. But these supposedly

00:04:14.640 more radical, supposedly more fringe figures, it turns out, well, you scratch a post-liberal

00:04:20.940 and you find a neoconservative. It is a difference without a distinction. So that's why at least I

00:04:26.900 think this is important. Yeah. And it's even worse than what you

00:04:31.860 explain there somehow because as you say drear himself has described you know he said he's a

00:04:37.640 post-liberal he kind of made his bones on talking about the shortcomings of the establishment

00:04:42.840 conservative architecture and all the things that might be necessary to move around it you know that

00:04:49.000 was kind of the point of the crunchy cons thing you know finding maha before it was maha it's not

00:04:53.760 that drear has no insights it's just that he seems to have very little spine and when it comes time

00:04:59.840 to actually come up with any solutions outside of that which has already existed he kind of runs

00:05:06.420 away now the interesting thing and i to be really fair guys this was a over two hour interview

00:05:12.140 obviously if we wanted to comment on all of it it would take us four or five hours i cut about 15

00:05:18.000 minutes out of this interview to comment on so i can't say i recommend watching the whole interview

00:05:23.280 but if you want the context it is there please understand i want you to have the context we're

00:05:28.160 not trying to take any of these men out of context or manipulate their words in any way so i encourage

00:05:32.560 you to go watch uh that if you want to have that full context but some of the stuff i cut out

00:05:38.240 unfortunately because drear and boring are just so meandering on this stuff was them complaining

00:05:43.880 about the post liberals you know boring keeps going on about how the post liberals uh you know

00:05:49.020 are out there talking and of course he's he doesn't i think call patrick denean out by name

00:05:53.960 by talking about you know Aristotelian ends by Machiavellian means and these kind of things

00:06:00.020 well guess what you know Roderick was part of this crowd like he was the guy who went to Hungary

00:06:06.240 went to Viktor Orban's Hungary to to explore the possibility of non-liberal democracy and what that

00:06:12.740 might mean Roderick has called you know liberalism kind of this this failed ideology that's not going

00:06:20.000 to work in the future but in this interview roger basically recants all of that and says yeah i have

00:06:25.120 my qualms with liberalism but ultimately well america is just this multicultural society and

00:06:30.280 nothing else could solve that problem it's like well yeah rod we know like that's the problem

00:06:35.820 that we have a multicultural society and we don't want one just like victor orban didn't want one

00:06:42.180 which is why you liked hungry because it wasn't multicultural because it wasn't liberal but now

00:06:48.200 he comes back and it's well actually it turns out that what i really wanted all along was classical

00:06:54.020 liberalism i'm the man who rediscovered england and it turns out the only way we can glue america

00:06:59.640 back together is by you know basically maintaining this multicultural status quo while also re-embracing

00:07:06.860 liberalism for reasons he cannot in any way articulate well and again i realize i had the

00:07:13.540 same experience. I went through this interview as well, and it is actually pretty difficult

00:07:18.720 to find through lines. And look, I realize this is ironic coming from a professional podcaster,

00:07:25.340 but that through line, right, which you can identify of, well, what is the real problem

00:07:32.560 with the new right, the woke right? When you get down to it, he's basically making a progressive

00:07:38.480 argument. Oh, well, when I said I was anti-liberal, what I actually meant was AOC,

00:07:45.780 not anti the liberal tradition. What we really ought to be is effectively

00:07:51.260 post-war, post-1964 American conservatives, the very movement he sort of made his bones

00:07:58.920 criticizing. And one of the questions you have to keep in mind when speaking to Rod Dreher,

00:08:04.240 or listening to him rather, is that he can certainly attack. He can certainly critique

00:08:09.980 the left. That's not particularly hard to do. He's attempting to export that to the right,

00:08:15.020 but seemingly he has no answer for why his professed set of values as he defines them

00:08:21.580 have failed. And the people who are pointing out, hey, this has failed, but we care about

00:08:28.560 this country. We care about this culture. Apparently, those people are the worst,

00:08:33.960 even worse, even scarier than the woke left. And I think the reason I and others are fascinated

00:08:39.940 with Dreyer and figures like him is that I read his book. I took a lot from it,

00:08:46.200 but I believed it. I basically said, yeah, Rod, you're right. That's a good point.

00:08:51.780 We should get serious about it. And so it's somewhat annoying to see someone who made those

00:08:56.720 initial claims, but is unwilling to actually make any structural changes to fix them.

00:09:03.160 So it's sort of this position of this, this is going badly.

00:09:07.380 Yes, it is.

00:09:08.360 What are you going to do about it?

00:09:09.920 Well, we can't do anything about it because that would be me.

00:09:12.780 At which point, why are you talking?

00:09:16.200 Yeah, this is so much of the interview is, yeah, we know there's a problem, but we want

00:09:20.380 to be very, very clear.

00:09:22.000 You are not allowed to look for a solution.

00:09:24.480 We are a solution free zone.

00:09:26.720 We're going to just talk about how you need to work harder, young man, just get your bootstraps, you know, pull yourself right up, nose to the grindstone.

00:09:34.580 If you're very lucky, then by the time you're 40, you might be able to avoid a house where you won't get stabbed in the neighborhood.

00:09:42.760 And you might find some woman to marry you and crank out a kid at that point, you know, if you give it your all.

00:09:51.340 Like, that really is the entirety of it.

00:09:53.860 Obviously, we'll play for it here.

00:09:55.440 But a couple of things that are interesting that you just mentioned there. One, one of the reasons very clearly that Rod Dreher has basically abandoned all ideas of the post liberal pursuit is he's very worried that someone's critical of Israel.

00:10:10.260 And the great thing is that I've seen a lot of people like Austin Peterson, that libertarian guy, like insufferable libertarian guy, talking about how they're no longer libertarians or, you know, they're not going to follow, you know, anybody like Richard Nixon or possibly Pat Buchanan because they were too critical of Israel.

00:10:32.420 Israel I'm a Barry Goldwater conservative because they don't know what Barry Goldwater believed

00:10:37.900 about Israel they don't know that Barry Goldwater said that Israel was running the United States

00:10:42.860 Congress like so it's just been hilarious to watch these guys try to hopscotch to claim like

00:10:49.480 previous figures in the American right that they can rally around you're right like they know that

00:10:55.120 just standing on Reagan won't work anymore so they're looking for other uh opportunities and

00:11:00.020 you know they realize that other people are kind of casting about for him as well so they're trying

00:11:03.520 to denounce all these other options oh the pat buchananites oh the nixonites oh we're we're

00:11:08.740 goldwater fans oh no oh no now there's a clip of goldwater um but before we get into the video

00:11:15.700 itself i should say two things one i have met roger in real life uh he was very kind to me

00:11:22.180 very complimentary uh gave me his books it was in a trash bag a little odd but he had a trash bag of

00:11:26.900 his books ready to go um and he introduced me to ian mcgillcrest uh who i did not know at the time

00:11:32.500 and i i appreciate that because that man is brilliant and fascinating uh so i can understand

00:11:38.280 that in person rod is very affable and very likable um that that's not hard to grasp just

00:11:45.160 spending a little bit of time with him and he's been kind to me uh personally so i just want to

00:11:48.820 say that before we get into criticism of the man because i want to say all good things i can before

00:11:53.000 i get into any of that however i also have to say that you and i personally have a friend who had

00:11:57.840 their life basically ruined because roger wanted to play uh i'm one of the good one tattletale

00:12:03.280 uh and decided that that was more important than the well-being of a man and his family

00:12:09.300 or any kind of confidentiality any of these things uh so just you know things things to

00:12:15.240 hold intention uh i imagine there are lots of reasons to like roger i have experienced some

00:12:20.860 of them uh there are just also a lot of reasons to not like roger and we'll be talking about those

00:12:25.680 today but i just wanted to get those that all out in front before we dove in i'll recuse myself

00:12:32.480 from this aaron so let's get on to the clip fair fair fair all right moving on i'm keep hearing

00:12:37.820 from orthodox priests it's my own church that some of these young guys are turning up because

00:12:43.420 they've gotten turned on to orthodoxy by watching something online they show up expecting to see

00:12:49.040 white people at prayer or you know the right they want to hear anti-semitism or they want to hear

00:12:54.880 some form of racism or a sacralized racism and the priests have to deprogram them like

00:13:01.280 they say what it is guys now jay i am uh kind of skeptical that there's a large number

00:13:09.920 of young men showing up to orthodox communities and saying where where's the jew hate uh i saw

00:13:16.800 I saw no end towers being built in the middle of this sermon.

00:13:21.860 Why did no one scream out any racial slurs in the middle of the homily?

00:13:27.000 I'm sure that one or two guys, you know, has spurged out and walked in and, you know, said a lot of things that are offensive to people in those communities.

00:13:35.520 I could see that happening.

00:13:36.860 but i i i'm trying not to laugh too hard at the idea that there are just a bunch of gropers

00:13:44.020 rolling into orthodox uh you know uh uh churches demanding uh to get you know screeds about you

00:13:51.060 know the jews and their lives or something like i i just don't see that happening yeah i highly doubt

00:13:57.200 that this is happening look like i am not orthodox but i have a lot of contact with that community

00:14:03.940 right? There's a large, growing, predominantly young Orthodox parish near me, and I'm

00:14:10.940 friends with a bunch of people there. And look, are these people on average more right-wing

00:14:17.800 than most? A hundred percent. And are there the sort of edgy jokes that happen behind the scenes

00:14:24.400 in our sort of thing? Yeah. But one, church is church. The Orthodox are big on this. Again,

00:14:32.420 And I've been to like three orthodox services and I got in trouble, not big trouble, but they were

00:14:37.580 like, Hey, don't talk about other stuff in the sanctuary that happens outside. So they take that

00:14:42.760 very, very seriously. And the idea that these sort of anti-social internet groypers, and by the way,

00:14:49.160 this is another term. There are several in this that are used very tactically. Groyper is one of

00:14:54.620 them because groyper effectively means anyone I don't like who is more right-wing than me.

00:15:00.120 it does not literally mean a follower of Nick Fuentes. So you've got to understand he's using

00:15:04.940 that differently. But that's just not what I see. That's not what I believe. And there are young men

00:15:10.820 returning to religion, particularly traditional forms of religion. I see it at my church. I know

00:15:16.320 it's happening at the local Catholic parishes and at this Orthodox parish. And do those men have,

00:15:22.260 on average, different than Daily Wire approved opinions about a number of things? A hundred

00:15:28.900 100%. But those people are there because they want a form of Christianity that is undefiled,

00:15:35.720 that is connected to something older than the civil rights regime, that is connected to something

00:15:40.720 older than even the American project itself. And so the idea that they're simply going there to

00:15:47.160 have racism or antisemitism preached at them is laughable for a couple of reasons. One,

00:15:53.080 the Orthodox sure do like St. John Christostom. That's all I'm going to say there. And then two,

00:16:00.200 a lot of Orthodox churches in America are actually under Arabian or Assyrian patriarchs.

00:16:08.600 They are not wholly white quote unquote organizations. And again, not all, but the

00:16:15.360 idea that this is this virulent group of incel white nationalists, I just don't see that happening.

00:16:23.080 This seems to be something we will identify multiple times throughout this, a woke left

00:16:30.960 quote-unquote tactic of saying, everyone I don't agree with is racist, sexist, homophobic,

00:16:37.360 and horrible.

00:16:38.400 And the deep irony throughout this interview is that over and over and over again, the

00:16:42.760 critique of the new right, or the so-called woke right, is that they have adopted the

00:16:47.880 tactics of the woke left.

00:16:49.240 And those tactics are on their face illegitimate.

00:16:52.660 You can never do those things.

00:16:55.120 And then 15 minutes later, they do the same thing, showing that apparently it's completely

00:17:01.380 fine to use those tactics when your sacred cow, when your Schmidian exception has been

00:17:06.920 threatened, then you're allowed to do it.

00:17:09.680 So this pretense of morality, this pretense of having the high ground, of being better

00:17:18.540 than everyone else is paper thin.

00:17:20.820 It does not bear out, even in their own words.

00:17:25.420 100%.

00:17:25.940 And we're happy that they're showing up, but they need, they show up thinking they know everything there is to know, and they want to fight.

00:17:33.720 I'll tell you this, though.

00:17:34.960 I had a conversation with a Catholic Zoomer convert who told me that the core thing that all pastors and priests need to understand is that the church, broadly speaking, is in a fight now with vitalism.

00:17:52.160 What does he mean by vitalism with a general philosophy that worships strength and excellence, the pagan virtues?

00:17:58.380 He said, if the Christian churches don't figure out how to speak into that hunger, young men have a legitimate hunger for being able to do something, for being strong, then it's going to lose.

00:18:13.280 But this sort of moralistic, therapeutic, feel-good Christianity, a boomer-style Christianity, it's not going to cut it.

00:18:20.560 And that's something where laypeople of our generation, as well as pastors and catechists, have got to confront.

00:18:28.380 yeah i think that so here's the thing uh congratulations you caught up from 10 years

00:18:35.080 ago everybody gets a gold medal you you've identified the problem 10 years after we've

00:18:39.740 been talking about endlessly however uh while acknowledging this problem jeremy and rod will

00:18:46.860 make it clear that at no point are you a young man allowed to do any of these things they say

00:18:53.040 yeah we we need to confront this problem there's a you know you're up against vitalists uh they

00:18:57.620 have this appealing message of strong masculine uh you know uh uh action and uh we we need to

00:19:04.980 address that but we will not address it like and no at no point in this two-hour interview

00:19:11.400 after complaining endlessly and acknowledging to be fair several times over that the american

00:19:17.140 church especially the american evangelical church has been too soft has been too weak has been

00:19:21.740 emasculated they won't say feminized uh but you know they after um addressing that issue over and

00:19:28.800 over again they will decry any and every attempt to try to then masculinize it they are willing to

00:19:35.940 say yes that is a problem but at no point in this two-hour interview is there a single solution

00:19:41.820 to that problem floated by either jeremy or rod and they all they do is attack anyone who has any

00:19:49.040 idea about how that might be addressed so basically it's yes we know that modern christianity

00:19:56.200 as exists today has been completely subverted by you know this this like weak ideology but we are

00:20:03.400 not going to do anything about it and if you try to do that you are evil and as they will not just

00:20:08.740 so much imply as call you outright repeatedly in this interview you are a nazi if you believe

00:20:14.360 that christian men should take some form of action to do things in the world that's beyond the pale

00:20:22.040 that's what great well and this is truly disastrous framing and funny enough this is actually an

00:20:30.700 argument you will hear from pagans they will say the big flaw in the west the reason that we are

00:20:37.680 here now is because inbuilt in Christianity is this overemphasis of weakness, of meekness,

00:20:47.140 this kind of prioritization of the ugly, the downtrodden, and there's no place for strength

00:20:54.040 within the Christian tradition. Now, I don't hold that. This is the entire Nietzschean argument.

00:20:57.380 This is the entire Nietzschean argument. It's genealogy of morals, and they're all being

00:21:01.060 saying like, yes, well, we're just going to go with yes, that's true, and we don't have any

00:21:06.000 solution for it. Well, right. And you and I have an answer to that. We say, no, that's not true.

00:21:12.780 It is possible to be both a follower of Christ and interested in strength and beauty. That is why,

00:21:18.580 again, so many of these men are attracted to traditional, more masculine forms of Christianity.

00:21:24.060 Basically a way to say, well, how can I resist the evils of modernity? You notice he said,

00:21:29.920 so many of these men come in wanting to fight, and that is a mark against them.

00:21:34.140 But if you remember Rod Dreher's most recent book before the one that's about to come out,

00:21:39.620 Live Not By Lives, he goes over the disastrous outcomes of falling to communism, the disastrous

00:21:46.900 civilizational absolute doomsday that is existence under communism. And he says that could happen

00:21:54.960 here. And so if you read that book and you're like, wow, Rod, that's a really good argument.

00:22:00.000 This could be disastrous for me and mine, could be disastrous for my ability to practice my faith.

00:22:05.520 I don't want a sort of antichrist-esque regime. So I'm going to fight. I'm going to stop it.

00:22:13.540 Oh, no, no, no. You can't. That's not legitimate. You're not allowed to.

00:22:18.740 And so this is what's so intensely frustrating, is if Dreher in his books was making very tepid

00:22:25.700 critique saying, oh, it's not that bad. Why are you so upset? Well, that would be stupid,

00:22:30.500 but at least it would be consistent with what he says. If the stakes aren't high,

00:22:35.680 fighting doesn't matter. But if you tell me one day that this is an existential threat,

00:22:40.660 that we could be behind our own iron curtain, that we could get Stalin to, or we could get

00:22:46.200 Hitler to, as he says in this podcast. Well, does that not justify resistance? Does that not justify

00:22:54.500 a response. Again, doesn't necessarily need to be violence. These young men at these churches,

00:23:01.500 many of whom I know, are not advocating violence, but they are interested in avoiding the sort of

00:23:08.000 negative outcomes you yourself described. Couldn't be more spot on. There are a lot

00:23:15.860 of young people being drawn to Christianity, a very pagan sense of what Christianity is,

00:23:22.560 and they're doing so because they've been presented with a feckless weak watered down

00:23:29.420 christianity that has been powerless in their own lives and in their own experience to

00:23:35.980 protect them from the actual evils of the world so jeremy boring here just basically says yeah

00:23:45.160 strong christianity is pagan he literally just concedes the entire like pagan bro reddit atheist

00:23:53.840 argument of actually all strength is pagan all weakness is christianity like uh yeah you you we

00:24:00.940 know that we don't want a weak feckless christianity but uh what you think christianity

00:24:05.240 should be strong well that's very pagan of you uh it's it's a disaster it's a disaster at every

00:24:12.280 level. And that's how you know that this is an echo chamber conversation, right? This is a

00:24:18.260 conversation designed for two people who entirely agree with each other on some kind of dangerous

00:24:24.220 foe to get together and denounce that foe. It's not about addressing an issue. It's not about

00:24:29.000 having solutions. It's not about being thoughtful and trying to consider what might need to change

00:24:34.200 and ultimately be altered in the conservative movement so it can be more effective and avoid

00:24:38.820 some of the things that they're worried about. Look, it's not that there is nothing to be worried

00:24:43.800 about in bad actions on the right, but the fact that the dedication from these guys seems to be

00:24:50.600 almost entirely that actually we will stop any and all efforts to address those issues to get

00:24:56.440 the worst possible outcome. Like Rod is going to talk endlessly about why more America and why we're

00:25:01.880 so close to the edge of turning into Nazis. However, at no point will he ask the question,

00:25:07.880 well did that just happen out of nowhere and for no reason was there any kind of build-up is there

00:25:14.520 anything anyone could have done beforehand to address these issues before you reach the point

00:25:18.480 where people felt that hitler was the answer to these problems no the answer is we are going to

00:25:24.560 go down so so in a way when rod says we are doomed to head down the path of weimar america he might

00:25:30.420 be right but it's because of guys like him he is the guy guaranteeing that we get where we're going

00:25:36.360 because he and people like Jeremy Boring absolutely refuse to address any issues that

00:25:40.700 young men have, especially young white men. And therefore they leave no other option,

00:25:45.840 literally no other option, but the very extremism they say they decry it in any point they took any

00:25:52.320 of these problems seriously. There would be solutions for these problems, but they think

00:25:56.780 that taking them seriously is the most evil thing you could do. Well, and again, that's what's so

00:26:02.980 stupid about exactly the clip you just played. It was so horrible about that framing is that

00:26:09.400 they are saying, yeah, we are weak. We are useless. And I can understand why young men

00:26:16.580 would be repulsed by that. But then that's just where the conversation ends. There's no question

00:26:21.700 of, well, how do we bring those men back on side? Now, I don't think that people like me should

00:26:27.200 link arms with these guys. That's not my point. But even from their own perspective,

00:26:31.320 this is a profound admission that they have no answers and the conclusion is oh well they're

00:26:38.480 just bad they should just go away they should just stop doing that that's not a particularly

00:26:43.740 convincing argument for those guys right if their critique of you is you're weak and useless and

00:26:50.000 your retort is yeah we are weak and useless but uh you shouldn't say it it's like well what's the

00:26:57.620 point here. Why even go through this whole ordeal other than to effectively reassure yourself,

00:27:04.580 say, yeah, we are better. I know we're going to lose, but we're going to lose because of just how

00:27:09.060 good we are, which if you have read The Beautiful Losers, it's this motif over and over and over

00:27:15.960 again. And that's why this interview is sort of beautiful, because it is almost every problem

00:27:22.440 with the American conservative movement, crystallized, perfect, sort of trapped in

00:27:27.180 amber. You or I could not have written a better interview to justify everything we've ever said

00:27:33.740 about the American conservative, right? This is it in their own words. Yeah. The most vindicating

00:27:40.640 interview ever for Sam Francis in the history of the world, for sure.

00:27:44.620 That created within the hearts and minds of the people a craving for order that the Bolsheviks and the Nazis stepped into.

00:27:56.000 Now, it's also the case that it was the economic crash, the Great Depression that brought on Nazism.

00:28:02.640 But what the Great Depression did was unmask the deep, deep cultural rot that had been building or falling apart for the previous decade.

00:28:14.620 And we're there, man. It was incredible to me what I learned about my own country today from reading about Weimar history.

00:28:26.120 And can I tell you how I started that?

00:28:29.120 I wish you would, please.

00:28:30.640 Well, last fall, I was getting ready to go to Washington for business.

00:28:38.740 And a guy I know who's very active in conservative politics, an activist, a millennial, he said, listen, he doesn't live in D.C.

00:28:49.020 He said, I'm hearing that in D.C., so many young men, like 30 to 40 percent of the young men who participate and work on the right in Washington are groopers, followers of Nick Fuentes or some.

00:29:01.520 so so there we go uh so you see jay burden um the reason that the nazis came about is that too many

00:29:12.100 men were making super chats on on live streams uh we are reaching the the classic point where

00:29:20.640 there is literally no other historical reference but world war ii and the rise of the nazis but

00:29:25.400 again you'll notice that in nowhere in this discussion so far has there been any recognition

00:29:32.280 that oh that happened for a reason in Germany and yeah actually there are a lot of reasons why

00:29:40.220 people were searching for a guy like Adolf Hitler that doesn't mean he's the right solution to that

00:29:44.740 problem but if you recognize that this is something that you think is happening in your own country

00:29:50.500 because no one's ever read German history and thought all of a sudden you know the Nazis are

00:29:54.500 coming for me uh but like if if you really believe this is something happening in your country

00:29:58.960 wouldn't you want to address literally any of the issues that led to this rather than just telling

00:30:04.080 people this is not the solution and when we have to pretend that a mexican guy in his parents

00:30:09.480 basement answering super chats is the same as hitler i'm sorry i have no love lost for nick

00:30:14.940 fuentes he has been nothing but like completely dishonest and lied about me but the idea that

00:30:20.240 this guy is like i mean frankly it's insulting that people think like he would even have that

00:30:25.580 kind of real world cachet like he could even inspire people to something like that in real

00:30:30.220 life uh but the idea that you know anyone who's watching uh nick puentes on a stream is so

00:30:35.640 suddenly one step away from embracing the nazi party it is absurd beyond any kind of recognition

00:30:42.740 it. Well, and one of the other kind of interesting things about this is Rod wrote an article,

00:30:50.800 I think in September-ish of last year, going over this exact same point. And I wrote a piece

00:30:59.940 sort of examining his article, because this is really where we saw him adopt the blueprint of

00:31:07.140 the woke right. This idea that the new right people to his right are mirror imaged on the far

00:31:14.760 left. They're the same thing ultimately. And what we see again and again and again in this analysis

00:31:21.540 is the idea that the only reason young people are attracted to these sort of ideologies is that they

00:31:28.720 allow them to externalize the bad things in their life. So it's not that I am too lazy, I am too

00:31:36.220 stupid. I could not solve these issues. It's this external force. It's the cis-heteropatriarchy or

00:31:43.480 it's a certain Middle Eastern nation. This is something he says almost directly later in this

00:31:49.100 interview. And the problem with that is if that's your position, if your idea is that everything is

00:31:54.840 fine, it's just that people can't accept responsibility. Well, that analysis starts

00:32:00.600 to become more shaky when you admit that, hey, things aren't going well. Well, if things aren't

00:32:06.200 going well, if these young men are being victimized, as Dreyer himself admitted, well, what are they

00:32:12.160 supposed to do? Are they supposed to go to church? No, they're not. They're not allowed to go to

00:32:16.520 church and say the things that they say. That's illegitimate. He uses the phrase, that's like a

00:32:21.780 demon in this. Well, okay. Well, what happens if they go into politics to secure a redress for

00:32:27.740 their grievances? Oh, well, no, no. They're horrible groipers they need to be gotten rid of.

00:32:33.060 So what is the answer for these young men to simply stop being victimized, to simply

00:32:40.160 stop objecting to the situation that they are placed in?

00:32:44.560 Is that it?

00:32:45.660 Is the answer basically, you're just complaining too much and it's rocking the boat?

00:32:49.960 Because effectively, that seems to be the real critique at the basis of it.

00:32:53.540 Because any normal way someone would accept agency, accept courage to fix their issues

00:32:59.080 or to go find some place where they can be free of them

00:33:02.920 has been cut off by figures like Dreher.

00:33:06.380 Whoa, whoa, you sound like one of those vitalists out there.

00:33:09.680 You want men to take action and change things?

00:33:12.580 Don't you know that your job, Jay Burden, as a conservative,

00:33:16.960 theoretically, is to go out and be just subjugated and replaced?

00:33:22.840 That is the message here.

00:33:24.720 That is 100% the message.

00:33:26.420 do nothing die alone lose your country and don't complain too much about it because it's really

00:33:32.860 messing up our ability to ring money out of the last couple boomers who still have dollars left

00:33:38.040 in their wallet like that is the entirety of this episode and it is so sickening to see like these

00:33:44.880 guys are moral cowards they are entirely feckless moral cowards they have no solutions all they have

00:33:52.280 is vitriol and slander for people who are actually trying to do literally anything to address this

00:33:58.760 issue. And I'm very, very tired of it. I'm sorry. Like I, my, my patience on this has worn

00:34:04.560 incredibly thin. These people will do nothing. They will watch the country die and they will

00:34:10.940 shame you for thinking that perhaps your country is worth fighting for in more than, I don't know,

00:34:17.580 some kind of monologue about the incredible ways in which pencils are manufactured under

00:34:23.060 capitalism, that there might be a little more to your existence and the value of your country and

00:34:28.900 your heritage than the ability to, I don't know, bootstrap yourself into being a widget salesman

00:34:35.780 somewhere in Kentucky. Like this is just the most insane treatment of young people, but they just

00:34:42.420 don't stop and then they can't understand why these people are pushing for the most radical

00:34:47.920 political ideologies they can find because all you will tell young men the only thing you will

00:34:53.340 tell young men is you have no solutions for them and that you hate them and they can smell it on

00:34:58.920 you you can say that you don't all you want but they can smell it on you your disdain of young

00:35:05.580 men is obvious it's so obvious that they refuse to listen to you anymore

00:35:12.420 other similar radicals. And I find that hard to believe, but see what you can find out when you

00:35:19.820 get there. So I arrived there and this was not long after Tucker Carlson had platformed Fuentes

00:35:25.300 and I called Tucker out on it. I'd like to remind everybody that Donald Trump literally

00:35:30.560 met with Nick Fuentes. So however you feel about Nick Fuentes, the idea that they're going to spend

00:35:36.640 this entire time smearing anyone or everyone who's interacted with him and then conveniently

00:35:40.940 dodge trump is not a mistake it is a tactical weapon well especially especially aaron when

00:35:51.020 the grave critique of the new right is that they are woke they do the same things as the woke the

00:35:57.560 same tactics turn you into the same people this is something again that comes up in this interview

00:36:02.580 the idea that you are what you do so okay if acting like the woke left turns you into them

00:36:09.620 well are we now criticizing people by association for platforming them who else has used that

00:36:19.260 language where does this seem familiar from oh no it's different when we do it's only bad when

00:36:26.080 it's people i don't like and if your point is that well politics is politics it's simply how

00:36:31.780 the human animal operates it's just friends and enemies well fair enough then right you are on

00:36:36.920 different teams okay but if your idea is that there is some correct way to approach politics

00:36:42.920 well then surely you must be held to that standard if that is your claim to moral legitimacy that

00:36:49.940 you have a standard oh apparently not i guess yeah you you can't spend two hours saying that

00:36:57.140 all these guys are evil because they're mercenary and they want to burn it all down and they have

00:37:01.300 no principles and then the very minute you run in to something you don't like be like actually

00:37:06.380 I have zero principles and I will adopt exactly the tactics that I'm decrying literally in the

00:37:11.900 same interview. I can't go 10 minutes without decrying a tactic and then deploying it within

00:37:17.400 10 minutes of each other. But, you know, I should be taken seriously because I am a very principled

00:37:23.680 conservative. TM. Fairly well. But every young man I met in their 20s, whether they worked in

00:37:33.080 the administration, for a think tank or whatever, for a member of Congress. I asked him, they all

00:37:38.300 said yes. And one of these guys is a guy I happened to know beforehand. And he agreed 30 to 40%

00:37:45.080 sounds right. And I said, what do they want? He said, they don't want anything. They want to tear

00:37:50.980 it all down. Again, just a complete ridiculous lie. Like Ron is just the man who Rod wrote an

00:37:59.800 entire book about not living by lies and this is just the most shameless bold-faced lie a human

00:38:06.500 being could deliver young men don't have anything they want they can't you can't name a thing

00:38:12.560 nothing comes to mind like uh hey stop importing foreigners to take over my country stop handing

00:38:18.840 my positions in society to women and minorities because they check civil rights boxes while you

00:38:25.260 pretend to be conservative uh make housing something like affordable for someone under

00:38:30.860 the age of 50 those are things those are real things those are tangible issues that could be

00:38:38.640 dealt with tomorrow if we had the political will it's not that these guys don't want anything it's

00:38:44.840 not that they don't have possible solutions it's that you guys refuse to implement any of them

00:38:52.460 address any of them. You want to pretend like this is just some kind of nihilistic exercise.

00:38:58.000 It is not. Now, don't get me wrong. People looking at a long list of grievances that they find

00:39:03.320 entirely unredressed might find that they need to switch things up. I think I read a document

00:39:09.420 about that somewhere. But ultimately, pretending like there's just no issues going on and there's

00:39:16.620 nothing that young men have that they could present to you as something you could address

00:39:22.480 is just a bald-faced lie. And Rod, of course, knows that because he has interacted with,

00:39:28.900 he said, young men. There is no way that he interacted with a bunch of male staffers on

00:39:34.060 the Hill and not one of them mentioned any of these problems. That's just a lie. And he knows

00:39:39.320 he's lying, but he's lying to Jeremy Boring's audience so they can all nod together and say,

00:39:43.740 yes, yes. It's not us. It really is the kids. Well, and this is an interesting framing you'll

00:39:51.660 see oftentimes in the conservative world where they're sort of leaning on Edmund Burke, who wrote

00:39:58.740 this incredible, genuinely conservative response to the French revolution. But there's a big

00:40:06.780 difference, of course, between, I don't know, Robespierre and someone who says, maybe we could

00:40:12.800 stop importing so many people and have some semblance of meritocracy in hiring.

00:40:17.440 They are presenting that, and this is something over and over again, these claims as being

00:40:22.760 tantamount to destroying society, destroying it all, burning it all down.

00:40:29.340 Later in this, again, a sort of echo of yesteryear's progressivism, we hear about the threat to

00:40:34.860 democracy.

00:40:36.120 Again, a term which seemingly has found a new audience.

00:40:39.460 But the idea is, unless you are slavishly devoted to the current status quo, a status quo that is dispossessing you, that is making your life worse, that is pushing you into downward social mobility and dispossessing you, well, you're exactly the same as the guy who loaded up Catholics into cattle ships and drowned them in the river.

00:41:02.360 it's absurd. Basically, again, trying to tar you by affiliation with the worst

00:41:07.200 excesses of revolutionary violence. But this is clearly not the case. This is another common

00:41:13.060 point in the woke right discourse, that if you have a grievance, it's just like the grievance

00:41:20.920 studies, the absurd claims of the woke left. If you have a problem that you say is caused by

00:41:28.260 something other than your personality, you are a communist. But again, this is not true.

00:41:35.160 The foundations of this country were laid by men who said, hey, this deal isn't great. I'm going

00:41:41.320 to go find my own. Thanks, but no thanks. Let's negotiate something else. The very foundations

00:41:48.160 of the country, these men claim to deify. These sacred documents were based off of

00:41:55.120 men with a grievance. And so the idea that that claim in and of itself is illegitimate,

00:42:01.440 is revolutionary violence, is the same thing as bayonetting the Romanovs or guillotining the

00:42:07.840 entire French nobility, it's an absurd, grandiose moral claim. It makes you look ridiculous. And I

00:42:15.060 think that's another element of this, the worst parts of the kind of limp-wristed, pearl-clutching

00:42:22.000 moral conservatism right this sort of breathless tone where we invoke very serious things to talk

00:42:28.260 about well something that in the scope of human politics is pretty baseline it's almost like the

00:42:36.720 back half of the entire declaration of independence is just a list of well oh yeah grievances oh and

00:42:44.160 by the way uh the sons of liberty were not just hanging out uh commenting in internet forums they

00:42:51.320 were tarring and feathering people they were streaming them up functionally they were lynching

00:42:56.220 people in the streets um but we are pretending that like this is the most dangerous thing that's

00:43:03.400 ever happened in the world the young man might list some grievances and look for actually like

00:43:08.080 legitimately peaceful redress of those grievances by involving themselves in the political process

00:43:14.160 but no rod wants to run them out of the political process for daring to have you know issues with

00:43:19.740 the system i thought dude this is weimar i just had to leave that that's dude this is weimar man

00:43:27.880 again the fact that this all comes down to everyone i don't like is literally hitler

00:43:33.540 like internet discourse has not moved at all for these guys we are stuck in

00:43:37.840 the conservative movement has learned nothing absolutely nothing i want to make it really

00:43:43.300 clear to people conning like the core conservative movement they're still running around calling

00:43:47.920 everyone racist everyone sexist everyone a nazi trying to cancel everybody literally nothing has

00:43:53.180 changed they're just the left with a different without without the covid mask that's it that's

00:43:58.640 all it is one of the things that this country has uniquely given the world the west has for

00:44:04.620 centuries but this country in particular is the sense that you have agency the sense that you can

00:44:11.560 did you know that america invented personal agency i mean look i i love my country i think

00:44:18.540 there's a lot of amazing things about it i'm not quite so ignorant of history to believe that we

00:44:24.060 ourselves can completely generate the idea of personal agency it's it's kind of a bizarre

00:44:30.480 thing to even attempt to assert well okay oran just a a hypothetical here if the great feature

00:44:41.140 of, you know, America is this, this sort of introducer, this, this creation of the idea of

00:44:46.380 agency, particularly shown by our capacity to, you know, venture into this unmapped wilderness.

00:44:52.680 Uh, how do people get here before America existed? I guess surely that amount required a certain

00:44:59.620 amount of personal agency. Again, I like this country. I'm a big fan of it, but this is just

00:45:05.180 a laughable claim and make a major difference in your own life, in your community and in your

00:45:11.080 country. And to the extent that young people don't believe that they have agency, to the extent that

00:45:18.920 they believe that they perceive themselves as victims of a system that cannot be corrected

00:45:24.940 from the inside, I don't agree with them. I think they do have agency. I think they have been

00:45:29.940 victimized by the system, but I think that they can, within the system, make profound change and

00:45:35.080 build a better world. But to your point, what you perceive right in front of you ends up

00:45:42.140 at least being reality as far as you interact with reality. And so while it may ultimately

00:45:48.300 be true that these young people actually have great opportunity in front of them, if they

00:45:52.260 believe they have no opportunity in front of them, they're going to behave as though they

00:45:55.180 have no opportunity in front of them. And if the only outlet for agency is revolution,

00:46:00.880 if the only thing you can do to change the world is overthrow the existing order,

00:46:05.080 then we're in a really tough spot yeah yeah yeah that is a tough spot one you want to really avoid

00:46:12.700 at all costs and yet again we see jeremy boring admitting yes the system was rigged against you

00:46:19.080 now you'll notice yet again we don't get into how right we don't talk about the fact that

00:46:23.960 there was literally decades of a regime that made it functionally illegal to hire white men at any

00:46:31.700 reasonable clip uh that you had to cut uh young white men out of education out of hiring out of

00:46:37.880 advancement and it was is literally illegal it was built into the law code that you could not hire

00:46:43.480 too many white guys or else that we we have all the data we need we have supreme court cases we

00:46:49.140 have all the evidence we have great books like jeremy carl's uh book of the unprotected class

00:46:53.740 you know we have white lash these books document the concerted effort to shut white people out of

00:47:00.900 all of these opportunities and young men out of all of these opportunities but you should

00:47:07.540 understand that you can fix in the system i'm not going to tell you how i don't have any answers

00:47:11.780 there are no solutions is a solution free zone we will acknowledge that the problem kind of exists

00:47:17.540 we won't get to how deep it is or how pervasive it is but we will ban you from having any real

00:47:23.940 redress of those grievances and if you try to enter the political system

00:47:28.100 will try to ferret you out and destroy your life if you in any way speak about alternatives to this

00:47:34.240 current system we will brand you as a nazi and i can't believe it we we got to a point where all

00:47:39.800 of a sudden people want revolution i don't understand how could we have arrived at this point

00:47:43.840 well again that's the the shocking just like blindness of this is that they're on one hand

00:47:51.780 saying wow can you believe that these radical young men are trying to enter the political

00:47:55.660 system to make changes. And then also saying, can you believe these people aren't actually

00:48:00.220 doing anything to make changes? They just want revolution. It's like, well, my brother in Christ,

00:48:04.640 you're doing it. You're the reason. The deep, deep irony, and they go through later in this

00:48:11.300 a kind of interminable comparison to Weimar, talking about the weak-willed German conservatives

00:48:18.140 that allied with the far right, and that's how we got the national socialists. It's like, well,

00:48:23.380 So what you're saying is that weak-willed conservatives lay the ground for an eventual revolution, and you are also self-describing yourselves as effectively weak-willed conservatives?

00:48:38.140 Do you not see this, even from your own frame, what you were saying about yourselves, that you were basically laying the ground for Adolf Hitler too?

00:48:47.300 clearly these men oppose that but they can't bring themselves to make any of the fairly mild

00:48:54.840 changes to head that off at the pass to provide people with a non-revolutionary redress of

00:49:00.300 grievances which i will say i think that would be much better if things could be addressed within

00:49:06.400 the system but they themselves over and over again through this pattern of denunciation

00:49:10.900 this pattern of looking for people who've said something wrong who believe something wrong

00:49:14.980 and ruining them, you are creating more and more people who, whether they have been canceled or

00:49:20.720 they have seen other people canceled, say, I cannot work within the system. This must burn.

00:49:26.960 That doesn't have to be the case. We could, hypothetically, fix this with the tools presented.

00:49:34.900 But men like this, even more so than the radical left, prevent that from happening.

00:49:39.900 they are in a deeply ironic sense completely and totally right about many of their proclamations

00:49:47.160 they just have the wrong emphasis and they lack self-awareness it's like watching the crew of

00:49:54.180 the titanic lecture people about the dangers of icebergs as the boat sinks you know just like

00:50:00.160 yeah i mean you guys really need to watch out for yeah man we like we know like the boat is going

00:50:04.760 yeah but like icebergs are very serious problem okay but like should we take some drastic action

00:50:09.760 to solve the problem now that we've hit one well i mean let's not be revolutionary here that's

00:50:13.860 ridiculous turn the wheel what kind of crazy person are you right you can't just abandon the

00:50:19.820 boat go to the lifeboats like we we you know this worked for your father and its grandfather they

00:50:24.700 they were able to sail on the ship and just because it's currently taking on enormous amounts

00:50:28.980 of water and about to crack in half no like obviously we can in no way shape or form you

00:50:33.840 know address any of these issues or find a lifeboat out of this well and also you know jeremy boring

00:50:38.400 saying oh well there's there's so many opportunities for young men and i think they're wrong about this

00:50:43.560 i mean look individually you should always be fighting for your own opportunity there is it

00:50:48.560 there is a a kernel of truth to not being a victim and taking action whenever possible you are the

00:50:55.060 only thing that you can control and so ultimately you have to do the best you can even in a system

00:50:59.920 that is entirely turned against you that part is true that said jeremy boring knows perfectly well

00:51:05.920 just like pretty much everybody in the conservative movement knows that even conservatives don't hire

00:51:10.700 young white men they hire gays women and minorities that's who they hire so they won't even give people

00:51:17.720 they're talking about an opportunity in their own organizations the news daily wire host is

00:51:23.060 some black dude they hired to fill in for candace owens and he's going to get in about how he

00:51:27.840 basically hired candace owens as a dei hire later on in this interview but we're not going to address

00:51:33.460 any of that we're not going to address our own culpability in producing this problem we're just

00:51:38.080 going to attack young men for noticing it and if what dario on the day the head of anthropic

00:51:46.720 if what he says is true that within five years ai will have wiped out half the white collar jobs

00:51:53.360 we are absolutely in a pre-revolutionary situation because that will be like the great depression

00:51:59.720 for the cognitive elites.

00:52:03.280 And this is important because there's this historian,

00:52:06.220 Peter Turchin, who famously in 2010 predicted

00:52:11.060 that the 2020s would be a time of political turmoil.

00:52:13.700 And he did so based on the technique he has

00:52:17.680 of analyzing history by applying quantitative analysis

00:52:21.740 to historical facts.

00:52:23.420 And his basic historical insight is that in most cases

00:52:27.060 throughout history revolutions have been led by elite or caused by elite overproduction what does

00:52:35.300 he mean by that he means there are too many smart ambitious educated people to fill the jobs aren't

00:52:43.380 enough jobs for them aren't enough access roads accessing power so they organize a revolution

00:52:51.140 it's not the masses that do it it's the smart people who know like lenin who know how to

00:52:56.420 organize the masses and use them to get what they want well we're in a situation now where so many

00:53:04.420 college graduates graduate heavily in debt there are no good jobs for them and so they they get

00:53:10.500 sour they turn they turn on their open their phones turn their laptops and they're getting

00:53:16.420 propagandized by the anti-semitic far right the racist far right or the far left and just saying

00:53:22.260 you're a victim you're a victim what's happened to you is somebody else's fault but what happened

00:53:28.300 to you was somebody else's fault like that's the whole point like this is this is what is just so

00:53:37.520 infuriating like so we get some good elite theory here right i've done a video on turchin's uh you

00:53:44.760 know elite overproduction it's a good theory it's correct so again we're you know and he says look

00:53:49.560 it's not it's not the average people that does it it is the elites that do this yes all of this is

00:53:54.760 true all this is correct rod okay these people get out of college it's super expensive there's

00:54:00.740 no jobs for them and they think they're victims well why aren't there any jobs rod what what

00:54:07.120 happened well there seems to be a little gap in the old narrative here oh oh we've been bringing

00:54:13.020 in h1b workers to replace our knowledge economy people forget the ai revolution we're moving as

00:54:19.600 many indians into the country as possible to fill in exactly the jobs that people went to college

00:54:25.240 to earn good livings on and guess what conning's fine with it we get vivek ramaswamy everybody's

00:54:33.220 favorite conning grifter talking about how americans are too lazy because they didn't get

00:54:37.660 their you know degree you know uh some fraudulent degree in mumbai and then walk over and get

00:54:43.780 hired in some ethnic nepotism scheme it's infuriating and this is why people are ready

00:54:50.080 to revolt against you because you know that these problems are actually someone else's fault that

00:54:56.940 there was a systemic bias against these people that you have artificially limited the access

00:55:03.140 to power to prestige to these things that young men fight for on a regular basis across all

00:55:09.280 societies you know you've done this you know you have manufactured exactly this scenario

00:55:14.700 but you take no responsibility instead you blame the people who are actually yes victims now i don't

00:55:23.280 think living in victim mentality is good i think ultimately you have to make your own way forward

00:55:28.380 even when things are tough. But the idea that this is just some ridiculous notion that these

00:55:33.520 people have cooked up to excuse their own inadequacy is insane. That is not the case.

00:55:40.900 Yes, there are plenty of people with gender studies degrees who do not deserve $300,000 a

00:55:46.400 year. But guess what? A lot of those people do get $300,000 a year, while the average conservative

00:55:52.560 guy is desperately wishing they could just get through the door with a real degree and a real

00:55:57.920 area like tech but they can't because you keep importing foreigners to do the job at half price

00:56:03.360 and then mocking the people you're locking out of the system well see oran that's actually their

00:56:08.780 fault because what they should have done is be born in 1953 and because they made that choice

00:56:14.980 yes stupidly it's all their own fault you you should have just filled out a different bubble

00:56:20.600 on the form and because you didn't you're uh condemned to a life of uh you know relative

00:56:27.300 poverty and sorry but that's the way the cookie cumbers and and walk up to the you know the boss

00:56:32.980 and shake his hand and get the dot and get the marriage of his daughter and just you know uh

00:56:37.700 pay for college with a job over the summer at the pop stand like yeah what like how stupid can you

00:56:43.140 be young man and we saw this with wokeness it it was a way of coping with anxiety it allowed you

00:56:52.580 to offload all of your anxieties onto the other white male christian heterosexual but now so many

00:57:00.140 of our own young men on the right are doing the same thing that is not what wokeness was

00:57:06.240 wokeness was anti-white this is the problem if you if you sold yourself on this idea that wokeness

00:57:12.800 is just the perpetuation of some victim mentality you have an entirely incorrect understanding of

00:57:18.480 where that ideology came from. When people say intersexualism, what they mean is an intersection

00:57:23.480 of identities that are not white, straight, male, Christian. That's what they mean. It's a

00:57:29.340 coalition of people who hate that particular set of traits. That's what wokeness was. Is victim

00:57:35.420 ideology, is victim language built into their justifications for the behavior towards those

00:57:40.320 groups? Yes. But that is not what wokeness is at its essence. And it doesn't mean people can't

00:57:45.140 have legitimate grievances. The Founding Feathers were not woke for pointing out that the British

00:57:50.000 system was not fair. That is not wokeness. That is not being a victim. And especially it's not

00:57:56.540 a victim when you actively take steps to change that, which Rod is decrying in this entire thing.

00:58:03.440 Well, Aaron, it's sort of amazing the term woke, and I've compared it to patriarchy before,

00:58:08.920 because both of these are slurs or descriptors which effectively apply to everything making

00:58:16.620 them useless if the founding fathers are woke if julius caesar is woke if all of these different

00:58:24.920 things including you and i what does it matter it's similar to saying oh well you know every

00:58:30.180 society other than you know current day scandinavia is patriarchy it's like okay at this point

00:58:35.160 This term is meaningless. It could be applied to things so disparate there's no comparison being made because it isn't an argument. This isn't an actual categorization. It's an insult. It means turn your brain off. You don't have to listen. They are others. They are enemies. This is the friend-enemy distinction.

00:58:56.720 And the great irony, of course, about these people, you know, ferreting out anyone who's

00:59:02.560 read Schmidt because he is guilty by association and you're this horrible wokester, you're

00:59:08.560 this evil, vile person, is that they live by his rules, much more so than you or I do.

00:59:15.620 The deep irony about this is the most liberal place on the internet is the illiberal right,

00:59:21.140 if you really drill down to it.

00:59:22.660 And of course, pointing out the hypocrisy doesn't mean that these guys don't still get to have op-eds appear in the New York Times. It doesn't mean that they're going to win. But what it does mean is that their entire framing, their entire house of cards is that, a construction. It's not real.

00:59:42.180 This isn't a consistent ideology. It is a series of post hoc justifications for deciding that those people are gross and icky and I don't have to pay attention to them. And so when people ask, who is the audience for this? I think that that audience is surely diminishing, but it's a very attractive proposition that I haven't done anything wrong.

01:00:03.540 I don't have to make any changes. It's all the other, which is the deep, deep irony of how this

01:00:10.940 argument is being relayed deep that he's saying, Oh, look at these horrible people who can't

01:00:16.360 accept responsibility. The good news is they're just horrible. So you don't have to accept

01:00:20.820 responsibility. There's no consistency to any of it's Smitty and ism all the way down.

01:00:26.240 Well, and he's like, Oh, well they're out there trying to other people. They're trying to other

01:00:29.760 people with by by casting responsibility on them exactly like i am doing right now yes yes yes

01:00:37.200 again they cannot go 30 seconds without you know speaking about what wokeness is and how terrible

01:00:42.880 it is and then immediately engaging exactly the behavior they decry and there is a kernel of truth

01:00:47.040 to what they say we know that they have been denied job opportunities educational opportunities

01:00:53.520 because of their race and their sex that was wrong but guess what we can fix that within

01:00:59.040 liberalism the answer cannot be to therefore mimic these woke identity politics people i bring it to

01:01:07.120 our side first there is no evidence of that there is no evidence that you can fix this in the system

01:01:12.120 you have done nothing to fix this in the system you have taken zero steps you have not taken it

01:01:15.800 seriously so yeah we'll acknowledge at you know in the in the briefest most passing way that you

01:01:22.500 might have some legitimate points here but even then he can't say like and those are grievances

01:01:27.360 that we do need to address no and he won't give you any ways which it can be addressed not a single

01:01:32.520 solution yet again not a single solution in this entire interview because that i don't that corrupts

01:01:39.280 our own heart and it also gives us an excuse for not becoming men and women of virtue and integrity

01:01:48.520 and of hard work you spoke so again i think that you do need people to be men of virtue i think it

01:01:57.640 is actually important to cultivate that in people but it is rod drear's generation that abandoned

01:02:04.120 this it is his generation that did not create this did not inculcate the virtue when the time

01:02:09.860 came to stick around and solve the problems in the united states was rod drear here fighting

01:02:14.580 in the trenches no he ran away to a foreign country he adopted another religion ran away

01:02:21.200 to a foreign country and hid away from the united states until he basically lost his patronage in

01:02:26.760 that country and then came back here to throw barbs at people trying to fix things here when

01:02:31.240 the going got tough rod had no virtue he had none he cultivated none in the in the next generation

01:02:38.700 He did nothing. He ran like a coward. He abandoned his country and he did nothing. And now he's here

01:02:45.720 to lecture you about you trying to take literally any action to fight for the country that he was

01:02:51.140 too cowardly to fight for. But remember, you're the bad guy. You're the woke one.

01:02:59.260 Very briefly earlier about Tucker Carlson ending your friendship over your criticisms of his

01:03:05.460 interview with Nick Fuentes, and you've written about that experience, that this fracturing

01:03:16.300 on the right is going to have enormous political implications for Republicans in this country

01:03:22.920 going forward and our ability to win in the midterms, in the 2028 presidential election

01:03:27.320 and beyond.

01:03:30.400 I'm concerned about whether or not it can be put back together.

01:03:35.460 whether or not the Republican Party

01:03:37.500 can be a functioning national political party.

01:03:41.920 Which is a funny thing to say,

01:03:42.940 because right now we control the House,

01:03:45.460 we control the Senate, we control the Supreme Court,

01:03:47.040 we have the presidency.

01:03:48.340 You know, we have most of the state governments.

01:03:51.420 I mean, Republicans have done incredibly well since 2008

01:03:55.680 in ascending to political power in this country.

01:03:59.400 And yet right now, there's this woke riot.

01:04:03.420 I don't love that term, but for lack of a better,

01:04:05.280 We don't have a better one.

01:04:06.580 The liberal right that is ascending in this country, driven primarily by the Zoomers, and I think older millennial intellectuals seem to be doing a lot of the heavy lifting as well.

01:04:18.880 So I was listening to Ezra Klein the other day because I hate myself.

01:04:25.000 And as I was listening to Esri Klein talk to a Democratic strategist, he voiced this concern that the Republican Party is just lockstep behind Donald Trump, just 100 percent in line.

01:04:40.320 The entire conservative movement lined up right behind Trump.

01:04:42.840 And it is the disunity of the left, especially over the issue of Israel, that he thinks is going to tear the left apart and make it impossible to operate as a national party.

01:04:55.000 So. It's fascinating that both of the establishments of both parties have exactly the same narrative about each other.

01:05:04.760 That there is this idea that the other side is entirely unified and our side is entirely fractured.

01:05:10.920 And it's all because of people who are like opposed to the current war in Iran or Israeli influence the United States.

01:05:18.100 And therefore, they're the ones who are fracturing the party and making it impossible for us to win going forward.

01:05:24.140 I just thought it was amazing that there's kind of this mirror belief or at least this mirror narrative occurring in the establishment of both parties to kind of push this agenda.

01:05:41.480 You've written about and even spoken here about your trip to D.C. and speaking to young Zoomers who are working within the government, working within the administration, and you say 30 to 40 percent of them and growing.

01:05:53.180 I would add, and growing, seem to adhere to this nihilistic worldview of sort of despair and revenge.

01:06:01.900 It's not a constructive—

01:06:03.180 Tear it all down.

01:06:04.340 Tear it all down.

01:06:07.340 Who represents them politically?

01:06:12.560 Heavy sigh.

01:06:14.460 I had hoped that J.D. Vance would be the guy—

01:06:18.460 With whom you were friends.

01:06:20.360 Yeah, it was an interview I did with him.

01:06:23.120 2016 for the american conservative that launched his political career it was so there it is guys

01:06:30.520 this is a two-hour interview to link us all back to the anti-jd vance pro war op that it's the

01:06:38.080 whole thing it's the it's the entire exercise well i i hoped it would be jd vance but uh even

01:06:44.780 though all the gripers hate him and have like denounced him on a regular basis he is of course

01:06:50.480 their avatar somehow and by the way i launched his career me rod drear the humble the humble

01:06:58.420 man from louisiana uh i launched jd vance's career because i wrote an article about him

01:07:04.560 i just uh kind of amazing that uh i knew this is where this was going but even when it got there

01:07:11.160 the manner in which they arrived was still kind of amazing to me i still found myself a little

01:07:15.180 slack job well also the amount of like humble bragging and kind of cattiness throughout this

01:07:24.860 interview is really irritating we've missed a lot of it i don't recommend you go look for it

01:07:31.100 but there is the the sort of implicit claim that really he's the guy who made jd vance is like all

01:07:37.800 right it's kind of eye-rolling you know come on man but also that really is the point of this

01:07:43.920 It's a long preamble and a long postlude where they whinge on about Dreyer's personal life that's most definitely not worth your time.

01:07:50.440 But effectively, this is another salvo in the attack on, to be blunt, non-Zionist conservatives, people who have qualms about our relationship to the state of Israel.

01:08:04.140 And one of the things that they say about Vance, one of the big marks against him, that he's not being a real leader because he isn't calling these people out.

01:08:13.460 He, he, they're very careful to say, I don't think he's racist and I don't think he's anti-Semitic, but he sure hasn't condemned them, which again, if the problem with the woke is these, you know, is this sort of collection of woke tactics, guys, come on, this is insulting to me because that tactic of you need to denounce your friends.

01:08:36.940 if we demand it. You need to distance themselves whenever we ask, will you say Black Lives Matter?

01:08:45.300 What's wrong with that? Why won't you just say it? Is there something wrong with you? Are you

01:08:49.460 secretly racist? Are you secretly an anti-Semite? Again, these tactics in practice are used all the

01:08:56.380 time. When my enemy uses it, when someone I don't like, that's when it becomes illegitimate.

01:09:03.880 And again, so much of this interview is kind of honestly catty conversations about Tucker

01:09:11.500 and about Candace Owens.

01:09:15.220 And look, I don't normally love getting involved in these kind of personality v.

01:09:19.240 personality disputes.

01:09:21.040 It's sort of annoying.

01:09:23.160 I'm not involved in it.

01:09:24.760 I don't really have a dog in that fight.

01:09:26.640 But it's incredibly transparent why.

01:09:29.080 The reason is because they are not on side on this one issue.

01:09:33.880 this one issue which seemingly takes precedent over almost anything else this sort of sacred cow

01:09:43.240 yeah nobody cares if candace owens is denying the moon landing this is what actually matters to them

01:09:48.360 right it's an accident but it went mega viral and boom he was suddenly a best-selling author

01:09:54.520 we stayed friends after that i don't know that we're friends anymore he cut me off after i went

01:09:59.560 to visit late last fall to talk to him about this very thing now i'm not going to disclose

01:10:07.000 our conversation but i will just say that i i pointed out to him these people the flintess

01:10:13.960 the groypers all of them are going to destroy conservatism in the republican party and i said

01:10:19.400 to him because of your background because of your age you're uniquely positioned to draw a red line

01:10:25.560 there, say, no, we are not going to accept that. And I asked him to do it. It's not my position to

01:10:32.200 say what he said, but I will say firmly, unequitically, I do not think J.D. Vance is an

01:10:38.040 anti-Semite. I do not think he's a racist at all. But I've written a couple of things since then,

01:10:44.840 calling on him to please be a leader, take a stand, you know, take a stand for your own

01:10:53.400 Christian beliefs for your own wife, but he hasn't chosen to do it. I think that these Zoomers

01:11:01.780 hate Trump from what I'm... So a couple of things here. First, you'll notice Rod's constant like,

01:11:09.140 well, it's not for me to say what he said, but here's exactly our conversation and how he

01:11:14.940 responded. So it's all, again, as you say, this incredibly catty, highly feminine game of telephone

01:11:21.580 where well you know i i won't reveal anything but i think ultimately this is what he was trying to

01:11:26.780 say where we're going also be a leader uh by doing exactly what i tell you to do some random author

01:11:33.740 it's i get to dictate what the vice president of the united states spends his political capital on

01:11:39.140 where he focuses his efforts what he thinks is most important i should be the determiner of that

01:11:44.100 and if he does not do that well then we're probably cut off we're probably no longer friends so

01:11:48.940 i just want to make it clear i don't think he's racist i don't think he's anti-semitic however

01:11:54.020 because he won't do exactly what i said i think he's basically playing footsies with these people

01:11:59.220 uh and so therefore he he you know is persona non grata in my conservative movement you know me and

01:12:06.060 my 12 friends who think that we're running this thing over at the free press uh like that that

01:12:10.760 that's got to be the only way we can understand conservatism going forward

01:12:14.660 well i'll put it this way uh i don't want to cast aspersions onto the free press

01:12:23.660 but if you're interested why is this such a big issue for dreyer and you look at the editorial

01:12:29.940 content of the free press you'll see some overlap there uh maybe enough said but again the idea that

01:12:36.860 what's really at stake is the conservative movement and the republican party that is what

01:12:42.580 must be conserved, is sort of telling. Because when I describe myself as a conservative, I

01:12:48.740 genuinely don't, but if I identify what part of my thought is conservative, it's the idea that,

01:12:53.300 well, my people and my nation ought to be preserved. There is something there worth

01:12:58.340 saving, worth preserving. Okay, well, institutions that are associated with that people and that

01:13:04.900 nation are, well, certainly important, which has priority, which comes first. Is America just as

01:13:14.200 America and these institutions just as American if they are staffed by foreigners? No, I don't

01:13:20.860 think so. They exist to serve that nation, to serve that culture. And I think it's very telling

01:13:26.920 that the real danger, the thing we have to avoid is the disillusion of, well, the conservative

01:13:32.560 movement, TM, or the Republican Party. If I could dissolve the Republican Party and go back to the

01:13:40.360 demographics of 1962, I would do that in a heartbeat. Yeah, I don't care.

01:13:45.720 Where do I slam that button?

01:13:46.740 Yeah, exactly. There are downsides to this. But of course, the idea that this institution is what

01:13:53.040 matters, and this is the repeat problem we see with conservatives. Again, why this interview

01:13:58.700 is so perfect is that they mistake the products of a culture for the culture itself this is the

01:14:05.080 same way they view the constitution right they view these things these institutions as sacred

01:14:10.800 in and of themselves and many of them are great many of them should be preserved but they are

01:14:15.820 the flowering of a culture not the wellspring of it never let these people call you unprincipled

01:14:22.000 by the way just never let them do it never let them tell you that they're staying on principle

01:14:26.220 and you have no principles.

01:14:27.920 They are shameless.

01:14:29.480 They are shameless protectors of their own power

01:14:31.460 and their own privilege.

01:14:32.920 They want to pull the ladder up behind you

01:14:34.680 and mock you as they go.

01:14:36.080 That's it.

01:14:36.720 They have no principle.

01:14:37.620 Don't let them lie to you.

01:14:38.480 Told, you know, they're glad he was there

01:14:40.440 to tear things down,

01:14:41.680 but Trump is an aging boomer who's about to go.

01:14:45.180 I don't know who their candidate is, you know,

01:14:47.980 but this is what I fear, Jeremy.

01:14:50.960 I fear that we're going to have people like JD,

01:14:53.860 maybe Marco Rubio, whoever runs for president in 2028, they're going to think that they can bring

01:15:01.300 these people on side, these radicals on side and control them. Take away or take their energy and

01:15:09.960 activism, but harness it and keep them under control. It won't work. And we have a historical

01:15:16.020 example in 1932 the failing conservative party in germany they convinced president paul von

01:15:24.660 hindenburg to appoint hitler as chancellor of the government they told him you know this hitler guy

01:15:31.780 franz von papen was the name of the conservative leader he said we can control him we can make

01:15:37.700 make him squeak like a mouse and hindenburg did appoint hitler i'm interested in this

01:15:42.420 So you see, J.D. Vance is not Hitler. Don't be ridiculous. I'm not calling J.D. Vance Hitler. I'm just saying J.D. Vance is going to appoint Hitler. Obviously, these are very different things, Jay Burden. Don't accuse me of using the exact tactics of the woke left that call everyone Hitler. I'm just saying they'll appoint Hitler. That's where I'm going.

01:16:03.320 because of your association with the vice president.

01:16:09.360 I've never met the vice president.

01:16:11.520 I've observed before that I don't recall

01:16:14.420 ever seeing someone in high office

01:16:17.100 in my lifetime in this country

01:16:18.900 who plays their personal beliefs closer than J.D. Vance.

01:16:25.560 Now, that's a funny thing to say

01:16:26.940 for someone who's written books about his politics

01:16:29.840 and who has ascended to the office of senator

01:16:31.620 and then vice president who makes speeches it's funny to say that he plays his personal politics

01:16:36.580 close to this but i think well it's funny because it's a lie it's a lie you're a liar like that's

01:16:41.780 why it's it's funny that's why it sounds weird it sounds weird because you're lying like i like

01:16:47.940 don't get me wrong all politicians i guess are at some level hiding things right like that's what

01:16:52.500 politicians do uh they're not entirely truthful if you want to say that jd vance is a politician

01:16:57.540 like any other okay fair enough like that that's a semi-reasonable assertion but the idea that jd

01:17:04.180 vance is hiding the bald in some way that like mike pence or vivek ramaswamy is not is ridiculous

01:17:11.860 it's insane like obviously again the guy has given a ton of speeches written books articulated his

01:17:19.000 beliefs you may disagree with them you might find them to be not to your liking you can make a case

01:17:24.180 against them but pretending that this just has jd vance is uniquely cagey about where he stands on

01:17:30.860 things in a business where people are always cagey about where they stand on things is just

01:17:36.160 entirely bizarre and an obvious like falsehood especially when he's like yeah he may have

01:17:42.240 written a book about what he thinks but has he really told us what he thinks it's like i i mean

01:17:46.460 i don't know that seems like a relevant piece of information to the contrary i'm no expert i haven't

01:17:51.220 read jd vance's book but like that seems like something you should uh be forced to address i

01:17:57.500 don't know that seems relevant to that claim also he's literally given speeches like when he gave

01:18:04.400 his acceptance speech or he gave a c-pack speech i was there when he gave or not a c-pack speech

01:18:08.360 is natcon speech i was there when he gave his natcon speech right before he was uh named as

01:18:14.440 the vice presidential candidate and that speech was considered very controversial because guess

01:18:19.000 what he did he shared his views his views that were not particularly popular he talked about

01:18:24.080 america being a people being a nation not just being an idea that it's okay to make the government

01:18:29.260 to work for and benefit the people of the united states and not just foreign entities or you know

01:18:35.460 corporate conglomerates like again jeremy might disagree with all those things i think he does

01:18:39.940 i think he's pretty pro us being all about foreign countries and corporate conglomerates i don't think

01:18:45.140 he cares very much as about america as a nation or a people i think he thinks america is just

01:18:50.360 whatever makes him money at the moment but just address those ideas pretending like this has not

01:18:56.600 been something jd advance has discussed in detail is again a lie the man has been on multiple

01:19:01.820 podcasts for several hours and gone in death with multiple hosts again you can disagree with what he

01:19:06.340 said for pretending that he's just not addressed these issues this this is just lying this is just

01:19:11.360 lying on camera. He does. He makes political statements, but he never really shows you his

01:19:19.560 cards. And so I don't know what to make of the data points that I observe. They don't all trouble

01:19:29.180 me, but some of them I find very troubling. His relationship with Tucker Carlson is very troubling.

01:19:34.080 Me too. I agree. Tucker Carlson is one of the true

01:19:37.620 malign forces operating in American public life, you know, Tucker engages in rhetorical

01:19:47.520 manipulation at a scale that I haven't ever really seen, demagoguery at a scale that I haven't really

01:19:51.860 seen in a broadcaster in my lifetime. He has a very clear agenda, a deep hatred of the Jews in

01:19:59.740 Israel. I don't think that he always had a deep hatred of the Jews in Israel, but it has certainly

01:20:04.240 become unavoidable you know if you pull up the last 100 episodes of tucker's show

01:20:10.380 you're going to struggle to find 10 of them that aren't on the like headline on questions of of

01:20:17.900 american support for israel uh or or historical judaism i'm glad to hear you say that you don't

01:20:25.300 believe so the guilt by association is obviously the only thing happening here right we can't really

01:20:33.520 say anything about jd vance we can't nail down anything uh that we are gonna attack we're gonna

01:20:40.280 all just do this by proxy tucker carlson is the proxy now we're not allowed to have friends that

01:20:46.800 we disagree with because we're not woke we just cancel anybody who disagrees with us and anybody

01:20:51.820 who's friends with them you can feel how you want about tucker um i know a lot of people have

01:20:56.740 soured on him uh especially when it comes to talking about islam i think that's something

01:21:02.340 you know that i don't think is wise i said as much when he was on my show but ultimately it's

01:21:08.540 very clear that the reason that tucker is addressing the issue of israeli relationship

01:21:13.060 with the united states is it seems kind of important right now actually it's pretty pretty

01:21:17.580 central to a lot of the problems that we're having maybe you disagree with tucker about that but

01:21:22.280 let's be clear every fox news headline is also about the state of israel just in the other

01:21:27.300 direction right now every daily wire headline is also about the state of israel it's just

01:21:31.740 in the other direction right now whether again whether you agree with tucker on this or not

01:21:36.980 it is ridiculous to pretend that he's spending time on an important issue because like he has

01:21:42.800 a separate agenda that other people do not have a motivation other people don't have

01:21:47.420 by the way roger goes on to assert that tucker is possessed by a witch in the woods behind his house

01:21:54.460 in the rest of this interview so take that with you know whatever grain of salt you'd like

01:21:59.960 well especially rn when we've pointed out i don't know literally three seconds ago

01:22:08.720 a fairly clear lie right that jd vance has not made his opinions known

01:22:14.340 and then they turn to tucker and they say yeah can you believe this guy he just won't stop lying

01:22:19.160 you're like whoa whoa whoa whoa again i'll admit i don't have the best memory in the world but it's

01:22:25.500 longer than about three seconds you know i've achieved past goldfish status and so i can

01:22:31.540 remember when you yourself deliberately obfuscated something to cast dispersions on someone you don't

01:22:37.340 like you have not proven to me that you are in a position to make that moral claim especially when

01:22:44.260 you are slamming this guy for talking about israel all the time uh especially if you were one of the

01:22:50.820 guys who worked at uh the daily wire like come on man at the very least this is pot calling the

01:22:58.300 kettle black but to your point this issue is the defining issue of the times whether you want it

01:23:04.560 to be or not we are involved in a war that marco rubio a man who i think we would not characterize

01:23:12.080 as a closeted far-right anti-Semite, despite his genetic background. Sorry, when that guy says,

01:23:20.780 yeah, we did this because Israel told us to, or they were leaning on us,

01:23:24.340 that seems to be a reasonable point of conversation. That is why many people,

01:23:30.340 and they say this later in the interview, have started to raise questions. And again,

01:23:35.600 This very tactical use of thought-ending terms, racist, anti-Semite, Jew hatred, to cover up seemingly legitimate questions really does smack of another recent political tendency.

01:23:49.760 I can't just on the tip of my tongue tell you what that word is, what that word that described people who tried to demonize anyone who disagreed with them through these kind of battery of slurs claiming they were mentally ill, that they had some sort of inbuilt prejudice.

01:24:07.440 I just can't remember.

01:24:08.480 all right it is fun watching people who are basically just non-stop invoking struggle

01:24:14.800 sessions over and over again try to throw uh woke accusations at anybody but yeah let's continue

01:24:20.880 in your personal experience that the vice president himself uh has anti-semitic views you know of the

01:24:27.520 sort that some people in his association very plainly do have you know jd vance could be president

01:24:36.080 right now i mean this very moment you know he's the vice president is one heartbeat away they say

01:24:41.520 and as you and i sit here we have the oldest president the oldest man ever elected president

01:24:46.560 in uh in donald trump we have um you know no reason to think that president trump's health

01:24:56.720 is bad or anything like that but every possibility that at any moment the fate of the country could

01:25:01.760 be in the hands of J.D. Vance. And as I said, there are a lot of things about the vice president

01:25:07.820 that give you hope. He's obviously incredibly intelligent. As I say, I think his behavior

01:25:16.300 vis-a-vis Erica and TPUSA in the moments after Charlie's death were hugely admirable. I think

01:25:23.140 the way that he speaks about family and his own faith are hugely admirable. But there are these

01:25:29.980 concerning features and so i i what i hope is that um well one i hope that he isn't von poppen

01:25:37.360 that he is uh not someone who tries to cynically make a deal with the devil and gets us all burned

01:25:43.120 i'm glad to hear that you don't think that he himself is the devil and this is just so shameless

01:25:47.780 again like it's oh well you know if trump dies at any moment we could just get hitler like that's

01:25:52.940 literally what he like he he even goes back to the specific example of jd vance would give us

01:25:59.080 hitler if trump died it is i mean it's beyond immoral it's beyond um it it it's it's one of

01:26:09.820 those moments where like it's so evil and stupid and and just nakedly narcissistically opportunist

01:26:17.940 that it is almost like moves itself into parody like you're almost in a moment like you're hitting

01:26:25.440 that surreal moment where like we've broken through the barrier of like just shameless lying

01:26:31.080 and we are now on the other side of uh yeah i am i am some guy complaining about wokeness

01:26:35.940 but threatening that at any moment jd vance will bring about hitler because he disagrees with me

01:26:41.540 and his friends with a guy i don't like well it's honestly worse than being wrong it's embarrassing

01:26:47.880 this is just like profoundly unserious behavior it comes across as to be honest deeply unserious and

01:26:57.000 kind of feminine right throwing your hands up losing it completely and totally and it's

01:27:05.420 interesting that dreher is sort of a punching bag of the dirt bag left right people like chapo

01:27:11.560 Traphouse have made fun of him for a long time. And sure, are they making fun of him in some

01:27:17.660 illegitimate ways? A hundred percent. They are leftists. They do not share the same worldview

01:27:22.560 that you and I do. But many of their criticisms of this sort of soaring moral language deployed in

01:27:29.760 very ordinary circumstances, making you look completely and totally ridiculous, that's apt.

01:27:36.140 Because the idea, as someone who is on the more radical right side of things, even, that this is a legitimate possibility that J.D. Vance will usher in Hitler too, is on its face completely and totally absurd.

01:27:53.400 But what it seems to be, again, is this idea that any criticism of, or even failure to significantly denounce criticism of, our relationship to Israel is literally Hitler.

01:28:09.360 And I'm sorry, that argument was tired a long time ago.

01:28:13.880 And now it's even more tired.

01:28:16.860 I don't have any reason to think that he is either.

01:28:20.640 That would not have been my observation.

01:28:22.440 But the Von Pappen thing is a real concern.

01:28:27.300 Cynicism, in my life, in business, I've made cynical decisions.

01:28:32.440 And I've said this publicly about the hiring of Candace Owens before,

01:28:35.900 that I was hopeful when I hired Candace

01:28:40.160 that we would be able to wield Candace toward the good.

01:28:44.120 I thought that she could be a force for good in the world.

01:28:47.040 But it wasn't a decision that was free from cynicism either.

01:28:51.840 Yeah, Jeremy, because you know what you did?

01:28:54.200 You did a DEI hire.

01:28:56.000 You saw a pretty black woman, and you said, oh, well, guess what?

01:29:00.240 She can check all the boxes.

01:29:02.680 She can vomit out all of the opinions that conservatives are supposed to have back at them.

01:29:08.660 They promise boomers what they want most, which is to be told they're not racist,

01:29:12.340 and the blacks are going to start voting for them any day now.

01:29:15.280 That's what you did.

01:29:16.140 That's why you hired Candace Owens.

01:29:18.000 Candace Owens would not exist without you.

01:29:20.960 Candace Owens is a divine judgment on the completely shameless DEI hiring that you and most of the conservative movement continue to engage in.

01:29:31.940 Nothing has been learned.

01:29:33.940 Nothing has been addressed.

01:29:35.740 Absolutely none of this has been ultimately resolved.

01:29:40.700 You are still doing exactly what brought you to this point.

01:29:44.340 You created Candace Owens, and then she ate you.

01:29:47.540 And you deserve it.

01:29:48.600 not that that doesn't justify her behavior but you made this person you created her she would

01:29:53.980 not have the platform she has without you she would not be as big as she is without you she

01:29:58.100 would not be dominating podcast charts and spreading all the stuff you hate if you had had

01:30:02.960 a conscience at all but you didn't all you saw was dollar signs all you saw was the ability

01:30:08.880 to check woke boxes you hired candace owens for all the reasons woke people hire people like

01:30:15.440 candace owens but again no real accountability oh yeah i'll admit i was a little cynical of this

01:30:22.060 but you know now that i've i probably shut a bunch of people out of jobs for exactly this hiring

01:30:27.680 criteria the same kind of people who i'm crapping on in this entire interview well i guess i kind

01:30:33.520 of did that but whatever i'm not responsible in any way shape or form she's the problem tucker

01:30:37.880 carlson's the problem well and the deep irony is that this is the exact same situation with the

01:30:44.120 particular sort of switched around that we see with the new rite in and of itself. It's like

01:30:50.920 Frankenstein's monster or a golem, right? A monster of their own creation is now raining down,

01:30:57.320 you know, blows on their own head. And I feel no sympathy because again, it is the consequences of

01:31:04.140 their own action. They laid the rake out perfectly, lined it up exactly, and then jumped straight in

01:31:10.700 the air right on the end of the rake and sorry you did this it is your fault and when these people

01:31:18.160 are whining about the destruction of the conservative movement don't listen they did

01:31:23.580 it to themselves and if the conservative movement brought us here if it was weak enough to allow all

01:31:28.980 of this what good was it to begin with i i knew that there were things about candace that i didn't

01:31:36.460 like i mean obviously i didn't know what candace would become no one knew what candace would become

01:31:40.700 But I knew that Candace was a bit of a narcissist.

01:31:43.020 I knew that she was an attention seeker.

01:31:45.400 I knew that she was a pugilist in ways that I thought she would follow fights beyond the limitations of my values.

01:31:59.080 And yet, so talented, so capable, so uniquely positioned.

01:32:04.700 By uniquely positioned, he means black female.

01:32:08.180 He means DEI hire.

01:32:09.900 that's what he means she's uniquely positioned because of identity politics that i'm pretending

01:32:15.480 i don't see and we shouldn't play but i played them when i hired kind of so it's by the way

01:32:19.940 oh i had no idea where she'd go candace owens started as a left winger who was doxing online

01:32:26.300 conservatives that's where she got her start in public life this was as obvious as anything in

01:32:34.720 the world could be. Jeremy just didn't care because he had the same woke DEI hiring standards

01:32:40.840 as everyone he's now pretending to decry. Again, never let these people shame you saying that they

01:32:47.960 have principles and you do not. They are lying cowards. They have no principles. They are

01:32:54.300 completely, completely fraud. It was cynical. There were parts of the decision that were cynical.

01:33:01.600 And, of course, it blew up in my face in ways that were unimaginable.

01:33:06.480 And I've found that while not as spectacularly or dramatically,

01:33:11.560 almost every cynical decision I've ever made in my life has had a similar result.

01:33:16.420 So my prayer for the vice president is that he not make cynical decisions,

01:33:22.300 because I think that they won't do him any favors,

01:33:25.920 and because of his station, they won't do the rest of us any favors either.

01:33:29.100 No. I mean, I have so much hope for him as a president one day. I just don't know now. And it's not because I think he's a bad guy. It's because I need to see a man I'm going to support or a woman I would support as presidential candidate, draw a clear line against Jew haters and bigots.

01:33:55.140 Dude, come on.

01:33:56.620 Come on.

01:33:57.320 what do we even do here what are we doing here guys if i love the aside or a woman like all right

01:34:04.400 okay come on man yeah it's like like yeah i would support hillary clinton as long as he spoke out

01:34:11.080 against tucker carlson at this point like just just shameless just completely incapable of shame

01:34:17.260 and i'm certainly not woke you know and i don't think that criticizing the government of israel

01:34:23.720 makes you an anti-Semite, even though I can't. Here we go, guys. This is going to be the best

01:34:29.240 two minutes of this interview. Okay. So opening statement, I don't think that criticizing Israel

01:34:35.260 makes you an anti-Semite. Let's go to the tape. I consider myself a supporter of Israel. I don't

01:34:40.060 think that makes you an anti-Semite, but it sure is interesting to see how this is so often in

01:34:45.620 American political discourse, a distinction without a difference. That's right. Listen,

01:34:50.080 I often say that it is perfectly possible to criticize the government of Israel without becoming an anti-Semite.

01:34:59.580 But you never see it in the wild.

01:35:01.960 Right, right, right.

01:35:02.980 It's like the Higgs boson.

01:35:05.500 It's a theoretical particle.

01:35:08.680 Look, I'm not saying that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitism.

01:35:13.080 I'm just saying that literally every single person who ever criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite.

01:35:18.140 again like you can't make it within 10 seconds of declaring i'm not going to say that but i'm

01:35:26.240 literally going to say that immediately after there is no he says in the wild it never happens

01:35:31.980 no one has ever criticized israel without being a anti-semit by the way that means barry goldwater

01:35:37.840 is an anti-semit just want everyone to pull that together okay gary barry goldwater is an anti-semit

01:35:46.940 under this definition these people are again shameless the agenda is brutally obvious and

01:35:54.780 the entire two hours of this thing trying to pretend that it's about anything else is so

01:36:00.920 such a bizarre exercise in like just the clumsiest rhetorical tactics you can imagine

01:36:08.480 these people are supposed to be professional narrative weavers it's what they do rod is a

01:36:15.220 author. Jeremy Boring is a media company like Mogul. Neither of them are able to put together

01:36:22.720 10 seconds of coherent narrative saying, yes, I guess you could, in theory, have some level

01:36:28.360 of criticism for the government of Israel. No, it's always anti-Semitism all the time.

01:36:35.840 The actual great evidence that you can do it is, first of all, I can offer all kinds of criticisms

01:36:39.860 of the state of israel uh and almost every jew i know and every israeli that i know can offer

01:36:46.000 enormous criticisms of the state of israel uh it's it's actually all the people who who say you

01:36:52.180 know it's okay to criticize the state of israel yeah nobody ever said it wasn't okay but the

01:36:56.600 person it is functionally illegal in certain places you can lose government contracts yeah

01:37:04.280 i i i'm sorry that seems to be a relevant piece of analysis here also again the idea that he can

01:37:13.740 criticize the state of israel it's like well okay dude then then do it yeah if you can like do you

01:37:19.620 have anything make a list buddy who raises that sort of preemptive defense almost always goes on

01:37:27.680 to say really and the thing too a good test of it is okay you've criticized israel for this

01:37:33.680 where's your criticism of turkey or syria or countries that have done a million times worse

01:37:41.980 things crickets china qatar china qatar you know i just left that last part in because i'm so tired

01:37:49.900 of this argument uh oh why don't you criticize anybody else actually i did endlessly before i

01:37:55.760 said a word about israel i talked about the influence of ukraine i talked about the influence

01:38:00.600 of china i talked about the influence of russia i talked about the influence of all of these

01:38:06.380 different countries and how i wanted them out of my country and that was never a problem i even

01:38:11.880 talked about the influence of the uk when the labor party was sending people over to campaign

01:38:16.540 against trump i spoke out against all of this endlessly i never got a single bit of pushback

01:38:21.960 everyone agreed with me on the right until i got to israel so the idea that people who criticize

01:38:27.800 israeli influence do not criticize anyone else's influence or behavior is bizarre like i'm sure

01:38:33.680 that there are people who just hate israel and that's it and they only mention it but but again

01:38:39.060 the purpose here is as always to lump everyone into the worst possible basket and pretend like

01:38:44.200 people who have criticized this forward influence have criticized no other country which again just

01:38:49.200 a bald-faced lie both men know it they're lying on camera to manipulate you it's shameless it's

01:38:55.040 evil. It's stupid. And we cannot let this continue. You have to be able to criticize

01:39:00.420 foreign governments. These people are cowards. They are fighting to silence you on behalf of

01:39:05.920 a foreign power. They are betraying their country by doing it. I will not shut up about this. I do

01:39:11.080 not care. You will not scare me out of it. You will not shame me out of it. You will not call

01:39:14.980 me mean names. I will continue to criticize literally every single country, Qatar, China,

01:39:21.660 And yes, Israel, when they when they use foreign influence.

01:39:26.080 And you know who else just did that?

01:39:27.920 The Trump administration.

01:39:29.200 They sent their own social media expert out on tour to tell everybody about how Israel

01:39:35.520 was trying to bribe him so that he would spin the news in their favor.

01:39:40.040 OK, we know this.

01:39:41.880 It's not speculation.

01:39:43.540 The Trump administration knows this.

01:39:45.240 They sent out their own functionaries to explain the process to people.

01:39:49.360 so when you pretend like this is just jd vance or candace owens or tucker carlson gone crazy

01:39:54.800 when it's actually coming directly from the trump admin i i'm sorry enough is enough this

01:40:01.740 is just shameless bizarre and frankly evil all right guys we have accumulated quite a few uh

01:40:11.360 super chats uh so we're going to try to get through those as quickly as possible so i don't

01:40:15.080 trap uh jay burden here forever uh but before we do mr burden can you let everybody know where to

01:40:20.600 find your work yeah of course so my primary output is the jay burden show i actually did my own

01:40:27.080 episode on this same podcast we took a slightly different focus but if for some reason you've

01:40:33.080 decided you need to hear more of these men talking uh you can go over to the jay burden show find my

01:40:38.280 comments there i've spoken to r in a number of times and again thank you so much for having me

01:40:42.840 a pleasure as always mr burden all right let's go to the questions here uh actually let me pull

01:40:49.400 this down so it's easier to read uh he says uh juror spent three years promoting camp of the

01:40:56.360 saints but uh don't worry he's super wholesome chungus also he got fired from american con for

01:41:02.100 talking about wieners do you have it that is true you're acting as if you know what's happening

01:41:08.000 there so i'll let you leave with that one the exact phrase was a primitive root wiener talking

01:41:14.180 about being in changing room in elementary school that is that is a hundred percent true and that

01:41:20.320 did get him fired because that's a really weird thing to talk about you can find it easily on your

01:41:24.760 own yeah i'm uh i'm gonna go with not know more about that as my option uh cherry coke nixon says

01:41:31.500 drear is a reminder that gen xers are diet boomers when it comes to demographics h1b etc also nixon

01:41:36.920 rules and gold standard wasn't his fault uh i mean look i i want to avoid the broad brush

01:41:44.440 i already feel bad when i hit all boomers with the boomer question because my parents are boomers

01:41:49.440 and they're wonderful people and they didn't do any of the things that boomers are supposed to

01:41:52.920 have done wrong so i i don't want to hit all gen xers with that brush but there is certainly

01:41:57.880 it's certainly clear that guys like rod are kind of the last stand of the boomerism in

01:42:04.160 con inc that yeah there is some level of gen xers carrying that over uh i don't think that's all of

01:42:10.220 them i don't even think that's necessarily the majority of them but it is certainly a uh a

01:42:15.040 concerted segment of people inside the movement that are holding that torch yes it says orthobros

01:42:21.500 and tradcast probably feel uh feel to uh cradle believers uh like mom donnie showing up in 2018

01:42:29.720 lecturing us on what it means to be american i kind of get it uh yeah i mean again orthodoxy is

01:42:37.760 a little strange it's a far more how do i say this ethnically situated christianity than i think many

01:42:43.960 people are used to in the united states or at least explicitly so i think uh most evangelical

01:42:48.920 protestism is pretty heavily white-coated in the united states but uh that that's certainly true of

01:42:54.440 a lot of communities that have orthodox i think greek orthodox is probably the most common orthodox

01:42:58.980 in most of the United States and that's very ethnically situated. So I can definitely see

01:43:04.020 having random people run in and suddenly having some kind of perception on what the faith should

01:43:08.960 be because they saw a meme on the internet. I can see that be jarring. I just don't think a lot of

01:43:12.960 them are running in and being like, where's the antisemitism? I doubt that's probably happening.

01:43:17.680 Yeah. And I feel like this is something that neither you nor I can speak to. We're not

01:43:21.320 orthodox, but even within my friends in that community, I am hearing that there is some sort

01:43:27.660 of not even to say fight but there are there is some tension along those lines because you do have

01:43:33.560 these older uh predominantly ethnic communities and new converts and that is being negotiated on

01:43:40.920 their terms it is not my position to get into it right but i do think that part is real the

01:43:47.220 extension to which he is taking it is not and let's also acknowledge dreher himself is a relatively

01:43:55.160 recent convert to orthodoxy right so take that opinion as far as you think you should

01:44:01.200 and he says the 19th century anglicans and lutherans would frighten modern mainstream

01:44:07.040 roman catholics that's how how far all the churches have fallen in modernity yep i think

01:44:12.360 that while there are differences and ins and outs of different denominations the one thing we should

01:44:17.220 all be able to recognize is that modernity has touched all of these and we all are dealing with

01:44:22.160 it uh very significant problems uh cyber chud says yeah the weak christians and the strong vikings

01:44:29.300 what happened with that again something about castles uh conversion by the sword charlemagne

01:44:34.340 etc yeah not not to start a dust up with the pagan bros but uh you know the constant refrains

01:44:39.660 about weak christianity uh are just a historical that said uh when jeremy boring and rod uh you

01:44:45.940 know uh and rod drear run around trying to reinforce every one of those stereotypes what

01:44:50.900 are you gonna say right many you'd says if you uh had not committed great sins god would not have

01:44:57.540 a punishment like zoomers upon you a boomer uh oh boomers yes i am the punishment of god for real

01:45:04.760 for real no with the broccoli cuts the this this this time the barbarians invade with broccoli

01:45:11.940 cuts uh trick hook nixon says paganized equals the first to 19th century church yeah that is

01:45:17.880 actually exactly what they were saying there as embarrassing as that should be for everybody

01:45:22.240 involved sean wyland says the boomers will blame anything other than than anything other than

01:45:29.300 except responsibility for hollowing out the american economy for everyone under the age of 55

01:45:34.780 especially white men by offshoring all productive work to china yep there's just no there's no

01:45:40.180 escaping the fact that a lot of americans now are feeling the downstream effects of decisions made

01:45:46.300 decades ago and we're obviously not rolling those back so the only thing to do is to call you lazy

01:45:51.100 and stupid and racist and anti-semitic rather than uh be like oh actually uh maybe you can't

01:45:57.120 just get a job at the factory and work your way through college the way i did and maybe that does

01:46:01.140 have an impact on the life that you lead but yeah it's much easier to just call people lazy than

01:46:05.940 actually address their problems manny youd says it's funny to me that people who denounce thinkers

01:46:11.460 like carl schmidt are the ones who stick with their teaching to the friend enemy distinction

01:46:15.020 the closest james comes to mind on this yeah james is perhaps the most ardent schmittian i

01:46:20.240 have ever met in my life despite uh you know like just freaking out like a hysterical woman every

01:46:25.320 time the name is invoked j6 says after burning pagan idols uh hungary's uh first king and uh

01:46:34.500 canonized saint saint stephen uh fought against his own pagan brother our ancestors earned their

01:46:41.400 place in christian history these fake christians want to take it away from us yeah it is really

01:46:46.400 really important for people to erase the history of conquest uh in christianity uh but we don't

01:46:52.740 need to do that guys it's actually cool uh it's cool that we were awesome and we conquered the

01:46:56.580 world and uh you don't need to apologize for or run away from it like some kind of little coward

01:47:00.480 uh bobby bob the nabob says any favorite metalcore bands or are you into pure metal uh i i do like

01:47:10.180 some metalcore bands.

01:47:12.320 I like All That Remains. I've had

01:47:13.940 Phil Labonte on here, the lead singer.

01:47:16.300 I like Fit for a King.

01:47:17.880 I like War of Ages.

01:47:20.940 A lot of the Christian

01:47:22.300 kind of metalcore bands

01:47:24.300 that came out at the time.

01:47:26.120 There are plenty of good metalcore bands out there.

01:47:29.340 Harmsway is actually

01:47:30.300 halfway decent as well.

01:47:32.260 I don't know that one.

01:47:33.940 The guy's super jacked,

01:47:35.900 which is how I got interested in the band.

01:47:37.760 It's pretty good. Anyway, conversation for another day.

01:47:40.180 very good very good many it says uh we are in weimar okay how did we get there if the rules

01:47:46.360 have led us to this what is the point of the rules what do we do now mr boredom has no answers yep

01:47:50.960 again it's an entire podcast of no answers in the rare situations where they do acknowledge the

01:47:55.800 problem they simply hand wave it away just do better uh you have opportunity what is that

01:48:00.540 opportunity i'm not going to tell you i am going to keep hiring dei hires in place of you and then

01:48:05.320 call you a loser for not figuring it out i'm not going to address any of the problems and that but

01:48:09.820 am going to attack you the minute that you say you need to get into politics to have some kind

01:48:13.760 of redress to these issues red dragon says just finished watching jay's episode on this chat

01:48:20.340 hope your blood pressure is a healthy range once more uh yeah i'm doing my best to destroy

01:48:26.280 jay's cardiac health yeah i'll be honest man uh i'm sorry i would definitely not have watched

01:48:32.700 what is now three hours of coverage on this i would not advise anyone do that it's medic that's

01:48:38.840 just bad for your health many you says i'm so tired of these beautiful losers man yeah we're

01:48:45.460 we're all there brother we're all there uh not nostella giffer yeah i'm just gonna go with that

01:48:52.420 uh never vance uh i don't know man if you got a better option let me know is is rubio your

01:48:58.260 backup plan because i'm not feeling great about that one uh sean wyland says conservatism is

01:49:03.940 just progressivism driving the speed limit yes michael malice eternally vindicated at least

01:49:08.360 on that quote and many you'd says all politics are identity politics in at least some way that

01:49:15.620 is true right it depends on which identity is most salient salient but at the end of the day

01:49:20.080 you are correct all politics is identity politics and philosophical thirstworm says it's just nuts

01:49:27.060 how this is obviously over foreign policy despite all the obfuscation it's unbearable how they can't

01:49:32.420 even be honest about it yeah that that was again my final takeaway from this was just how shameless

01:49:37.240 it was to do two hours dancing around this issue pretending it's about something else when it's

01:49:41.760 very clear that rod rushed home from his job his sinecure with a foreign dictator uh so he could

01:49:48.380 uh suddenly find out that he opposes jd vance for having uh any criticism of uh the israeli

01:49:55.480 government even the most mild form of it yeah that's very obviously why this was done all right

01:50:01.560 guys we're gonna end it there but once again thank you everybody for coming by it's been fantastic

01:50:05.580 speaking with you. You should go check out Mr. Burton's podcast if you are not doing that right

01:50:11.780 now. If it's your first time on this channel, you need to subscribe, click the bell, notifications,

01:50:16.400 like the video, leave the comments, all the stuff that lets the algorithm know that you want to

01:50:20.280 watch more. If you want to get these broadcasts as podcasts, you need to subscribe to the Oren

01:50:24.320 McIntyre show on your favorite podcast platform. And when you do, leave a rating or review. It

01:50:29.140 really helps with the algorithm magic. Thank you, everybody, for watching. And as always,

01:50:32.940 I'll talk to you next time.

01:50:35.580 Thank you.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - July 29, 2026

Rod Dreher Attacks JD Vance and the New Right ｜ Guest： J. Burden ｜ 7⧸29⧸26

Episode Stats

Transcript