The Auron MacIntyre Show - Someone Will Rule

00:00:00.000 Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded,

00:00:04.720 so you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a

00:00:09.180 whole new version of you. Like tea time you. Or this tea time you. Or even this tea time you.

00:00:18.680 So did you hear about Dave? Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you.

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00:00:30.600 Hey everybody, how's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon. I am Oren McIntyre.

00:00:35.600 Before we get started today, just want to remind you that one of the ways we keep the lights on

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00:01:03.140 $20 off today. All right guys, today I want to talk a little bit about power and its abuses.

00:01:10.760 We all know that government power can be abused, right? This is kind of the core principle of the

00:01:16.560 American founding that we need to control the abuse of power. The king has abused his power and we need

00:01:23.140 to make sure that that doesn't happen again in the United States, or at least that's kind of the story

00:01:27.900 we're told about the amount of American founding at least. And this is very core in the conservative

00:01:33.500 DNA, the idea that ultimately we need to figure out ways to restrict government power. But what we

00:01:40.160 don't realize is actually we've taken this teaching about government power and we've applied it to

00:01:45.140 legitimate authority in things like families and communities and churches and all kinds of other

00:01:51.580 spheres of life. And whether conservatives recognize it or not, but by going along with this kind of

00:01:57.480 libertarian notion of there should be no authority in these spheres, we ended up moving all of that

00:02:04.260 power onto the government. And this has created a serious problem. As much as we hate to admit this,

00:02:11.220 the very presence of power cannot be removed. Power will always be conserved. You cannot get rid of

00:02:17.580 power. You cannot destroy the one ring of doom. Power will always exist. And the only question is,

00:02:23.520 where will it be vested? Who will wield it? And if you invest it properly, then these different types

00:02:30.140 of power will push back on each other. But that means we also need to be prepared for the fact that

00:02:35.140 if we devolve these powers back down to these different social spheres, they could also be abused.

00:02:41.200 That's a difficult thing to understand. Nobody likes to hear that. Abuse of power, especially in some of

00:02:46.100 these scenarios, is particularly ugly. And we prefer if there was some kind of super authority that could

00:02:52.080 reign over every one of these and objectively decide when someone will or won't be stepping out

00:02:58.520 of line with their authority. But true authority, true sovereignty means either these different

00:03:04.160 organizations, these different levels of social spheres can make their own decisions or not. And if

00:03:09.000 the government can ultimately step in in any of those situations, then none of those spheres are

00:03:13.820 ultimately sovereign. Again, very difficult thing to hear, but an important thing we need to

00:03:18.060 understand. Because if we give up this understanding of power, then we will inevitably move all of our

00:03:24.120 power into the government, whether we grasp that or not. So I want to get into the details of how

00:03:29.340 power works, how abuse of power works, how it can be avoided, but to some extent, but ultimately will

00:03:36.100 always be tied inherently to the existence of true sovereignty. We'll get into all that in a second,

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00:04:44.480 All right. So like I said, let's talk first about the nature of power, authority, and their abuses.

00:04:50.720 Now, if power exists, then obviously it can be abused. That's basically the nature of power.

00:04:58.220 Power is the ability to make one man move, right? The political power is about the ability to tell a man

00:05:05.240 to move and he must move. And your ability to do that can obviously be abused. As soon as you have

00:05:11.100 authority over someone, the ability to move a man, there is always the possibility that you might use

00:05:16.320 it for your own advantage and not someone else's, right? That ultimately the person wielding that

00:05:21.260 power is not doing it. They're not telling the man to move because the man is standing under a falling

00:05:25.320 anvil or about to be hit by a train, but they're telling that man to move into a position that will

00:05:30.440 ultimately harm that individual. And really that is an extricable from the exercise of power.

00:05:36.860 And so that's why we know that you have to be careful about who you vest authority in and how

00:05:42.280 much authority you vest them with. That is in the minds of many people in America, especially on the

00:05:48.260 right or conservatives, that is kind of the main point of the constitution to vest at the minimum

00:05:53.040 amount of power possible into the government and divide what power you do give them up to avoid

00:05:58.900 its abuses. And of course the mixed constitution, which is what our founders were actually going

00:06:05.240 for, right? That there would be elements. A lot of people say, oh, well, you're just kind of a

00:06:09.540 democracy or whatever. No, no, not at all. Our mixed constitution, well, the type of constitution that

00:06:14.840 was suggested by all kinds of philosophers in antiquity up to our founders was one which mixed some

00:06:22.440 elements of monarchy, some elements of aristocracy, and some elements of democracy together,

00:06:27.240 right? Aristotle's three main forms, the rule of the one, the rule of the few, and the rule of the

00:06:31.800 many, these need to ultimately be represented simultaneously inside our society. And by allowing

00:06:38.300 representation from each level of these groups, we can keep one group from ultimately overruling the

00:06:44.900 entire thing. We kind of get maybe the best of each of these worlds without the downsides, or at least

00:06:49.740 that's the thought. Now, ultimately, when we recognize that we can't get rid of power, that power will be

00:06:55.880 vested in one way or another inside of these different places, we have to recognize, again,

00:07:00.700 the truth that ultimately it will be abused. Now, one way you can avoid this abuse, and this is the

00:07:07.220 way that a lot of people think of our constitution, the way it's supposed to work, is you set power

00:07:12.480 against power, right? This is Federalist 51. This is Hamilton talking about the different passions,

00:07:18.320 the different ambitions, checking ambition inside the government. That's great, right? That's important.

00:07:24.460 But we need to recognize that power does not just exist in the government. Now, the founders knew

00:07:28.820 that, and I'll talk about that more in a second. But we have forgotten that there are all kinds of

00:07:33.960 levels of power in the society. And if you're obsessed just with government power, you will forget that

00:07:40.560 actually it is these outside forces, these non-governmental powers, that are really meant to

00:07:45.980 check the power of the government itself. Yes, the branches of the government are great, and the checks and

00:07:50.360 balances. Yes, these are all good, right? We want to separate those powers, of course. But that is not

00:07:57.120 sufficient to actually hold government power at bay. Because once all the power is pushed up into

00:08:02.960 government, then those little ideas about separating the powers and checking and balancing each other,

00:08:08.860 they start to break down. Because they're not sufficient to a powerful government that has really

00:08:13.520 brought all of society's authority unto itself, right? And this means that all the abuse can just

00:08:19.280 occur at a higher level. And this is the classic, what's called the Odysseus problem, right? The

00:08:24.540 desire to bind authority. Can you ultimately bind sovereignty? Or is sovereignty ultimately always

00:08:33.300 going to have that final say, that final exercise of power? And that's kind of what I wanted to talk

00:08:40.420 to you about today. So when we think about these different types of power, these different social

00:08:47.720 spheres, I want to talk to you a little bit about Bertrand de Juvenal. If you're playing your Oren

00:08:52.300 bingo card at home, you can check the Bertrand de Juvenal box off for today. And Bertrand de Juvenal is

00:08:58.440 this French philosopher who talks about the metaphysics of power. And one of the things that de Juvenal says

00:09:05.120 is that the only thing that's ever really stopped power is opposing power. Once again, I'll remind you,

00:09:09.740 that's not just his creation. That's something that our founders knew as well. That's why they set

00:09:14.380 power against power. But de Juvenal wants to zoom out and say, it's not just the government power

00:09:19.360 that we need to think about. It's the other social spheres, the spheres of church, the spheres of family,

00:09:24.840 the spheres of community, tribe. These are the things that actually control the different powers

00:09:30.980 and balance each other inside your society. And the government just becomes one of these many

00:09:36.080 spheres of power. So yes, you have state authority, but you have church authority. You have religious

00:09:40.520 authority. You have family authority. You have the authority of community and tribe. And each one of

00:09:45.420 these has different interests. The power of family is different from the power of community, which is

00:09:51.100 different from the power of church, which is different from the power of the state. And so the

00:09:55.620 way that they hold these powers, the way that they engender their loyalties, the way that they push back

00:09:59.300 against each other, these things are all unique. And because the power is unique and comes from

00:10:04.740 different places that are critical to your society, each sphere can only ask for so much.

00:10:11.220 The church can only ask for so much. The family can only ask for so much. The tribe can only ask

00:10:15.100 for so much. The state can only ask for so much, because if any one of those asks for too much,

00:10:20.180 the other critical pillar of society will start to crumble. If you ask for too much in the state,

00:10:24.920 then the family is going to start to crumble. The tribe is going to start to crumble. If the church

00:10:28.140 asks for too much, then the family might crumble. If any one of these demands too much of the

00:10:34.060 individual, then the entire society starts to come apart because they were interconnected

00:10:38.800 and essential on levels. The government was not just the be-all and end-all of communal

00:10:45.120 authority. And that's what we need to understand. Today, we have this really, really atomistic

00:10:50.000 relationship with the state. We, as individuals, interact with this Leviathan state. And this is

00:10:56.180 why you see movies like Brazil or stories like 1984 and these people trying to overcome these

00:11:02.480 insane technocratic bureaucracies and just failing at every level, right? Because they, as an

00:11:07.960 individual, even though they might know something's wrong, they might recognize errors in the system,

00:11:12.560 they might wish to be, you know, something else. They, as one person, cannot push away from the

00:11:19.100 state. They simply do not have enough power. Collective forces are the only thing that actually

00:11:24.640 push back against state power. But if you eliminate all these collective forces, then you end up a

00:11:30.580 scenario where you don't have the ability to push back. This is really important because a lot of

00:11:35.980 conservatives will frame right and left battles, conservative and liberal battles, in the idea of

00:11:42.120 individualism versus collectivism. And that is dumb. That is very dumb. Okay? Yes, there are parts of

00:11:48.900 leftism that are toxic collectiveness, right? The communism and these other things, not helpful.

00:11:54.700 However, collective action is the only thing that ever gets anything done, including making

00:12:01.340 governments smaller. And this is unfortunately why libertarians often fail in their quest to make

00:12:06.640 governments smaller because they don't understand this. They think it's all individualism. We're

00:12:10.660 individual libertarians, right? So we all have our own notion of what libertarian is. This is the

00:12:14.840 problem with libertarians. You get 10 of them in a room and everyone will tell you that the other ones

00:12:19.100 don't believe in real libertarianism, but they do, right? Because they have the real libertarianism.

00:12:23.660 So it's very difficult for the libertarians to collectivize and push back against power because

00:12:28.540 every one of them is trying to define their own special plan. And even though they all know they're

00:12:32.520 in opposition to the government at large, it's very difficult for them to then collectively push

00:12:37.340 back against it, right? So this is a huge issue. Now, one of the things that guys like Alexis

00:12:43.660 de Tocqueville realized was that ultimately it is the voluntary associations in the United States

00:12:50.000 that allowed our government to be small. He pointed out that it was the social clubs and the churches

00:12:56.660 and the fraternal organizations and the fire departments and like all of these things that

00:13:02.380 Americans were constantly volunteering for, they became kind of their own little power centers,

00:13:07.380 right? You might think of the fire brigade as no big deal, the voluntary fire brigade, until you

00:13:13.920 realize that several influential men of the city are involved in the fire brigade. And actually being a part of

00:13:19.600 the fire brigade means you have a certain level of cachet and influence inside and access to power

00:13:25.660 through that. And you have access to the power through the fire brigade in a way you don't have

00:13:29.760 it if you just go straight to, say, the government. And so this fire brigade acts as kind of like its own

00:13:35.420 ad hoc little check against government power because it's not just the government that has the power,

00:13:40.180 it's also this fire brigade. The same is true of church, of course. Church should primarily be a place

00:13:45.300 where you worship God, but you're naturally going to grow connections there. And everyone knew through

00:13:49.920 most of American history that if you wanted to make valuable social connections, you would go to church

00:13:55.040 because that's where you met people of influence inside the town and settings that weren't necessarily,

00:14:00.000 again, official government functions. And every time you have these voluntary associations,

00:14:05.400 you're creating basically little cabals inside your community. We used to call this the old boys network.

00:14:11.240 Now, that's a dirty word today because, again, we have this idea that anyone doing power, having power

00:14:19.100 outside official government operations is bad, right? But not necessarily. Actually, this is what created

00:14:26.020 those pushback against the state controlling all the power because, of course, never did any one of

00:14:32.100 these voluntary associations have all the power. Yes, you had the church, but you also had the fire

00:14:36.000 brigade and brigade and you had your fraternal organization and you had your community organization,

00:14:40.920 your rotary club. All of these things were involuntary associations that created spheres of power

00:14:47.520 that could influence government, but were not part of government. And they pushed back against the idea

00:14:53.580 that all your effort needed to be in influencing, controlling the operation of the state itself. They also took

00:15:00.440 on a lot of duties that the state would later take on. So if the state is feeding you and putting out

00:15:06.260 all your fires and personally responsible for your protection and responsible for the education of

00:15:11.280 your children and responsible for your health care and everything, well, then the state has all of the

00:15:16.060 eggs in its basket, right? There's nothing that these other organizations can do for you that the state

00:15:20.460 can't do. But that wasn't available through most of history. There wasn't this level of scale and

00:15:25.140 infrastructure that allowed the state to provide all those things. So it had to rely

00:15:28.800 on churches. It had to rely on fraternal organizations. It had to have voluntary fire

00:15:34.540 brigades because it couldn't fund a military throughout most of history, much less individual

00:15:40.700 police forces and fire brigades. In a lot of America, you didn't even have the office of sheriff

00:15:46.800 because it was seen as an abusive office from England. Instead, you had a constable. And if the constable

00:15:53.880 wanted to make an arrest, he didn't even go to arrest the person by himself. He had to go

00:15:58.620 to the men of the city and convince them that this guy needed to be arrested. And then he would go

00:16:05.620 with basically a mob to arrest that person. And that was the way that policing was done in that it

00:16:13.040 was a community thing. Every man had to be involved. You had to compel these different people,

00:16:19.360 these private citizens into public action. And that meant that the office was not really

00:16:24.680 something that you could easily abuse, right? This is how you avoided an abuse of power.

00:16:30.220 It's not by just dividing the sheriff's power up. No, instead, you had a system where the average

00:16:35.600 person had to be directly involved in the action. It wasn't just the state separate. No, if you wanted

00:16:42.820 to make this arrest, you needed to bring the rest of the community in and utilize them in order to make

00:16:48.580 that happen. But of course, it's not just the voluntary associations, right? It's also the

00:16:54.320 involuntary associations. In fact, in many ways, the involuntary associations are even more important.

00:17:00.720 I can't break the bonds of family. I can't break the bonds of religion that I was born into. As easy

00:17:09.100 as I can, I can just leave my, I don't know, loyalty to Walmart or, you know, some job I'm working at.

00:17:15.980 Those voluntary associations, those, you know, the blood and the religion and the tradition and the

00:17:22.700 heritage, those things are far more difficult to simply leave behind and break and betray than all

00:17:29.620 these, you know, voluntary associations of market and commerce and even loyalty to the state, right?

00:17:37.120 And these things are critical because when you have these associations, they are so deeply ingrained

00:17:43.540 in human nature and more importantly, so ingrained in human existence, like they are necessary for

00:17:48.840 human flourishing, that it's very difficult for people to abandon them for some benefit from the

00:17:55.640 state or someone else, right? And this is what really ends up binding government power. Yes, again,

00:18:01.880 constitution, division of power, all great, all great, right? But ultimately, it is truly the loyalty to

00:18:08.160 these non-voluntary associations and voluntary associations that ultimately is what really

00:18:14.060 restricts the state. And it's not just me saying that. That's what Alexis de Tocqueville said. That is

00:18:18.940 what Bertrand de Juvenal said. We have a long history of Frenchmen telling Americans about American,

00:18:23.460 how America works, but nonetheless, these parts are true.

00:18:26.860 So now we need to talk about what is going to be probably the more controversial part or the more

00:18:37.380 difficult part, right? So far, we're kind of recapping things we've talked about on the channel

00:18:41.480 before bringing them all together, but this part is really critical. So a lot of times people will look

00:18:47.860 at these different associations or these, you know, involuntary and voluntary, and they will say,

00:18:53.920 well, if they have authority, they could abuse them, right? And we see this, of course, with the

00:18:58.420 family, right? We see it with the church. Of course, we can all think of scandals when it comes to

00:19:05.580 abuse of children in homes or even, you know, child abuse in churches, though, to be very clear, that is

00:19:11.560 much lower, for instance, than abuse in public schools that nobody talks about. But obviously,

00:19:17.460 people are more likely to do something like hate a Catholic church than they are to hate a school.

00:19:23.020 And to be clear, like, you know, pedophiles should be, well, it's on YouTube, but, you know,

00:19:28.820 the Bible has solutions for this problem. I'll just put it that way. You know, millstone futures,

00:19:34.220 very bright. So I want to be clear, like, all these abuses are not okay. I'm not justifying them.

00:19:39.560 The people who do them should meet a biblical penalty for that crime. But what I'm saying is,

00:19:45.820 as long as authority exists inside those institutions, the possibility of abuse will be

00:19:54.240 there, right? We simply can't get rid of these two things. If a parent has authority over a child,

00:19:59.100 they could abuse the child. If the church has authority over its flock, then someone in the

00:20:04.720 flock could be abused by someone in a position of power in the church. It shouldn't happen.

00:20:08.280 No parent should ever abuse their child and no church leader or anyone on authority should abuse

00:20:14.800 their power inside the flock. I mean, that is, these are the highest of crimes, right? Like,

00:20:19.680 these are, again, I believe very staunchly in the severest penalty for them being done

00:20:25.040 because they are the deepest betrayal. But the reason they're the deepest betrayal,

00:20:28.440 this matters, this really matters. The reason that they are the deepest type of betrayal

00:20:33.280 is that ultimately, these are betrayals of true trust, right? Like, the most direct divine

00:20:41.680 authority available to us, right? The reason that these are such heinous crimes, some of the worst

00:20:48.240 crimes we can imagine, is specifically because those are God's structures in our life. And we know it.

00:20:55.320 We know the family and the church are directly divinely ordained. And they are given a sacred duty to watch

00:21:02.560 over these children, these parishioners, right? Like, these members of the congregation.

00:21:08.420 And so the violation of that relationship, even though, you know, we could think of other abuses

00:21:12.980 that are similar in, like, technical sense, somehow those people committing those abuses are the most

00:21:20.880 vile. And it's because they are the most divinely ordained positions. And if you can't trust those

00:21:27.380 things, you can't trust anything else. And this is why people who are abused as children by parents or

00:21:32.460 family members, when they're abused by churches, this is usually the thing that is the most devastating

00:21:37.420 to them, right? Like, this is the thing most likely to scar them for life, to make all of their

00:21:41.540 relationships terrible, to give them deep psychological conditions, destroy trust. Because

00:21:47.160 once those most core relationships are violated, it is very, very difficult for people to regain a normal

00:21:54.500 sense of trust, right? And so that's why these have come with some of the most heinous penalties,

00:22:00.480 and rightly so. This is why these things are most hated and seen as the greatest betrayal. And again,

00:22:05.440 very rightly so. However, we do need to realize something here. And again, very difficult, but very

00:22:11.040 true. If a sphere is to be sovereign, then abuse must be a possibility. And that is scary, but it's true.

00:22:22.440 If another authority has the ability to step in and override your authority, you are not sovereign.

00:22:27.820 That's it. And so that's why there's always a very high standard for any part of society stepping in

00:22:38.180 and involving itself in these relationships, right? The parental relationship was considered sacrosanct

00:22:45.980 throughout most of history, especially in Western cultures, right? It's very difficult to step in and

00:22:53.100 say that you should involve yourself in family affairs. One, because A, it was just very difficult

00:22:59.280 for the state to do that. They didn't have the level of scale to involve themselves in every single

00:23:03.760 family and hash out their problems, right? However, it was also because these were such sacred

00:23:12.840 positions that violating them was seen as extremely taboo. So if you look at something, a lot of people

00:23:18.940 will point at the Bible, they'll look at the Old Testament and they'll say, well, there's an injunction

00:23:24.580 in the Bible that says you can take your son, you can take your child to the front gates of the city

00:23:29.980 and stone them to death, right? You can stone them to death. How barbaric, how barbaric that the Bible

00:23:35.760 has this understanding that you can go in and stone your own child, right? But they need to understand

00:23:42.700 that actually, historically, this is quite the revolution. Because in, for instance, the Roman

00:23:47.760 understanding, the patriarch was the head of the household. And through much of Roman history,

00:23:54.280 until a son or daughter had come of age, they were basically the property of the paterfamilias,

00:24:01.340 right? The head male of the house. They could be sold into slavery, they could be beaten, they could be

00:24:07.360 killed at the whim of the father. He is the ultimate sovereign inside that family. And that

00:24:17.420 means whatever he says, and literally whatever he says, for the most part, goes, right? Very little

00:24:23.020 oversight over what a father could or couldn't do to his children, right? When the Bible is establishing

00:24:31.200 this idea that you need to bring the son to the gates of the city, it's walking a fine line. It's

00:24:37.040 saying the authority of the father still exists. However, there are levels of severity that you

00:24:44.840 must prove before the tribe, right? So this is the next step. The tribe becomes the next check on this,

00:24:53.240 right? So you go to the gates of the city, that means the tribal elders, right? And the tribal elders

00:24:59.200 will hear your case against your son. You still have the authority, you're still the head of the

00:25:03.140 household. But the tribal elders need to check this very severe action. And if they agree, then you

00:25:10.300 can take the action that you want. But there is, there is a check on the final step. You still have

00:25:15.420 vast power inside the house as the head of the house is the father. But there is a check, there is a tribal

00:25:21.600 check, right? On whether or not you can ultimately kill your kid. And this is a, again, people look at this

00:25:29.400 as barbaric, but it's not. If you look at, if you actually look at the context, it's quite a change

00:25:34.200 in how families were run and how communities were run and how authority was understood, right? But

00:25:41.360 you'll notice that that authority still just goes to the tribal level. And this is important because

00:25:46.060 these intermediate institutions kept everything from going directly to the state. This was also true

00:25:52.340 if you read a book like Fustel de Colange's The Ancient City. He talks about the ancient Roman

00:25:58.100 and Greek cultures. And he says that ultimately people did not take most of their disputes to the

00:26:04.680 state. It was not the job of the Roman or Greek governments to handle these different problems.

00:26:14.020 If something happened inside your tribe and it couldn't be solved inside the family,

00:26:18.700 you took it to the patrician, the head of the djinn, the person who ran your tribe.

00:26:24.920 And that patrician, that elderly figure, that patriarch, that person was the one that decided

00:26:33.840 what happened, right? They were the first judge. So if you had two people who had a dispute inside a

00:26:40.380 tribe, you couldn't work it out. You take it to not the government, not the state, but to your

00:26:46.840 patriarch. And that patriarch sits in judgment and says, this is what happens. Here's how we

00:26:51.940 dissolve this. If you went directly to the state, this was seen as a serious problem.

00:26:56.960 And this was seen as a huge violation of tradition, of authority, of betrayal, of loyalty,

00:27:02.960 very, very immoral, right? To take this out of its context and take it to the state. And again,

00:27:09.760 this really limits the power of the state because you have this intermediate layer that resolves

00:27:16.360 conflict inside the tribe without taking it to the over state, right? And it's interesting because

00:27:23.940 Colange kind of echoing what would later be DeJuvenal's understanding was that before the

00:27:32.480 different tribes could be forged into a true state and eventually an empire, the power of the

00:27:39.480 families had to be dissolved. They had to get rid out of this idea that the families had the power,

00:27:45.980 that the patriarchs had the power, that the tribes had the power. And they had to move that power into

00:27:51.180 the hands of the different leaders, right? The emperor or the two consuls. You had to strip power

00:27:58.400 away from the families and move it into the state before you could scale up and really become

00:28:02.800 this large government apparatus. So if you want to avoid big government, quote unquote, big government,

00:28:09.680 the thing to do is not to get rid of authority. Authority will exist. Someone will decide. Someone will

00:28:16.940 rule. Someone will rule. The question is, will the state rule or will the families rule? Will the tribes

00:28:26.060 rule? Will the church rule, right? And the answer properly balanced is yes, all of these will rule

00:28:32.260 in their domains. Each in their own place, they will have primacy. And that's what actually keeps

00:28:38.160 the government small. It's not just the division of into branches or the checks and balances, the

00:28:43.860 architecture of the constitution, though that stuff's great. But that's not actually what keeps

00:28:48.560 government small. It's the power of these intermediate authorities. But if the state can step in at any

00:28:54.560 time as it does today with families and say, we have the authority to step in and regulate, not just

00:29:01.080 like really bad child abuse, right? But all kinds of stuff, right? If you don't want to trans your

00:29:07.200 child, states like California will steal your kid from you. So if you don't want to abuse your child,

00:29:12.500 they'll step in and take your child. If you are teaching the wrong religious beliefs, if you don't

00:29:19.840 think your child should go to a government school, the government can step in and take charge, right?

00:29:26.000 Now, in some cases, we feel good about that because, of course, there are abusive parents. Look, I was

00:29:30.380 a public school teacher in one of the worst public schools in my area, the worst public school in my

00:29:36.060 area. And trust me, I know about child abuse. I've unfortunately seen it. I've had to be a part of

00:29:44.720 people reporting it. I am aware of the neglect that ultimately, you know, family members can have.

00:29:51.880 So I don't say this by like, oh, I've just never seen that. That's not a real thing. No, no, no. I

00:29:56.880 know I've got an up close and personal seat to how bad that can be. But ultimately, you have to

00:30:03.500 recognize that if the government is regularly involving themselves in families, those families

00:30:09.020 have lost authority. Now, and I think a lot of these situations, the problem is there is no

00:30:13.520 intermediate authority in these children's lives. There is no wider family connection who can come

00:30:18.740 in and say, look, that father is not taking care of our nephew or our niece, and we need to get

00:30:23.800 involved. Actually, that guy is part of our tribe, and we're not going to let him abuse his children.

00:30:29.480 We're going to step in. Those authorities are now gone. In fact, if someone tries to invest

00:30:34.160 themselves, if an intermediate institution tries to stop child abuse, they could be held viable, right?

00:30:40.080 They could be the one. So you have to give the power to state. The state is the only one who's

00:30:44.640 allowed to step in and stop the family abuse, which means it is the only one with authority. And that

00:30:49.440 means it has the true sovereignty inside every family relationship. Now, this is also true of

00:30:58.300 the church. Now, obviously, I am a Christian. I've been in the church my entire life. I've had a very

00:31:03.740 positive experience with church. However, I do know people who have been abused in church, have

00:31:09.320 been taken advantage of in church. And that is horrific, again, for all the reasons we just

00:31:13.640 talked about at the beginning of this, that this is one of the most sacred relationships that a human

00:31:18.040 being can have. And someone coming in and abusing it is one of the greatest violations, one of the

00:31:22.700 grossest violations we can understand. But one of the things that the Bible says very clearly

00:31:28.540 is that actually most issues should be solved inside the church. It says, don't take a Christian

00:31:35.680 to court. Do not sue another Christian. Do not let a secular agency solve your problems. Do not let

00:31:45.020 the state solve church issues. Much like with the family, you go to the church first. The elders of

00:31:52.340 the church are the ones that decide whether or not there should be discipline, whether there should be an

00:31:57.300 issue. That's where you should go first to resolve that dispute. First, you go to the person, then you

00:32:04.540 go to the church, the wider church body and ask for restitution, ask for this problem to be solved.

00:32:12.320 Now, again, that can be very scary because, of course, churches could abuse their authority. They could

00:32:17.940 gather around and protect an individual instead of turning them over for justice, right? Like that could be

00:32:25.400 a really serious problem inside a church. And yet it is very specifically what the Bible asks us to do.

00:32:33.140 And why? Well, because God recognized that ultimately you needed authority that wasn't state

00:32:39.540 authority. And of course, the church authority can be abused and the state authority can be abused and

00:32:45.280 the family authority can be abused. But when you put the state in judgment of both the church and the

00:32:50.360 family, then you're saying that those don't have sovereignty and you're vesting all of the power in

00:32:55.100 the state. And the problem is that most conservatives would agree with this. They would say, yeah, you

00:33:00.140 should go to the state, go to the police, go, go, go and resolve your problem in court. They would not

00:33:07.140 follow the biblical injunction. Most conservatives agree with this. And they're, they, they agree with

00:33:12.180 this because they're worried that someone will think they're okay with child abuse or something like

00:33:16.780 that. As if the state does not facilitate child abuse. Again, let me tell you, as someone who worked

00:33:21.260 in state agencies, who worked in public schools, the state facilitates plenty of child abuse,

00:33:28.500 plenty of child abuse. The state removing a child from an abusive home often means they just drop them

00:33:33.800 in a new abusive home. Again, more child abuse happens in public schools, even per capita than it does

00:33:40.320 in places like the Catholic church. So public sector government run institutions are rife with

00:33:47.280 abuse. And of course we recognize this. We recognize that government is abusive. We know this. And yet

00:33:52.900 we say this should be the final arbiter, right? Because what we really want, and this is the core

00:33:57.920 of this problem. This is kind of my ultimate point in where I'm going with this is we all want an

00:34:04.040 authority outside the current authority to resolve our problems without the interest of that authority,

00:34:09.100 right? If it's the, if it's a family, we want the tribe. It's, if it's tribe, we might want the

00:34:13.720 church. If it's the church, we might want the state. And if it's the state, we might want something

00:34:18.380 above the state. Often this is why people are calling for international law and, you know, global

00:34:23.720 governance and, you know, these universal entities to step in and run our governments because they might

00:34:30.580 be abusive. In fact, the United States acts like, like one of these authorities, right? Oh, well, yeah,

00:34:36.960 I know your state is technically sovereign, but we don't like how you're treating your people. So we're

00:34:41.200 going to go bomb you, or we're going to get you, we're going to start a color revolution and replace

00:34:47.040 you. We're going to mess with your finances. We're going to sanction you. We're going to take all your

00:34:52.480 money in these international banks. We're going to act as this like wider authority that should be able

00:34:58.900 to capture everything and control it ultimately. And you as a leader, you shouldn't really have

00:35:04.800 authority. We see this all the time, right? And the reason for this is very simple. People don't

00:35:09.760 like to be ruled. They don't like to have authority over them. They don't like to submit

00:35:15.720 to authority. So they want to feel like there's always one more appeal. There's always one more

00:35:21.240 place they can go, right? And to be fair, appeal is a significant part of the American system.

00:35:26.480 But ultimately, you have to recognize that the buck stops somewhere. And when you get to the point

00:35:38.320 where it stops, someone will make that decision. Anyone who tells you it's a system, it's rule of

00:35:45.280 law. No, it's rule of a person. When it gets to the judge, the judge decides. When it gets to the

00:35:52.600 police officer, the police officer decides. When it gets to the president, the president decides.

00:35:56.500 When it gets to the king, the king decides. When it gets to, you know, the head virologist,

00:36:01.080 Anthony Fauci, Anthony Fauci decides. But someone always decides. This is the point of people like

00:36:08.920 Carl Schmitt or Joseph DeMaestro. Someone always decides. And systems are an obfuscation for human

00:36:16.860 power. So if someone has told you the constitution is the highest authority,

00:36:21.180 authority or, you know, the, you know, the, the system, the, the, the experts are the highest

00:36:26.200 authority. No, there's a human being, the human being with real flaws and real understandings and

00:36:33.560 real biases. And they will decide. Someone's going to decide. And the worst part about believing that

00:36:39.900 a system is in charge is then that the person who decides can be like, oh no, it's the system.

00:36:45.260 It's not me. It's because your neighbor voted for something. It's not my fault. An expert said I had

00:36:52.980 to do it. Oh, it's not, it's not me. It's, it's, it's your neighbor across the street. They're,

00:36:57.900 they're the one that supported the guy who's making this happen. There's no accountability.

00:37:01.820 There's still people making decisions, but they're not accountable because we've rejected the idea that

00:37:06.700 they have any authority, even though they obviously do. And this is where we can't really escape the need

00:37:12.380 for virtue. At the end of the day, a real society, a society that truly is interested

00:37:19.200 in liberty, that's truly interested in a real order, they're going to need virtuous people

00:37:28.880 at every step along this way. And again, this is what Alexis de Tocqueville recognized. This is what

00:37:35.540 all of these different philosophers recognize that the reason the United States worked is that very

00:37:40.440 virtuous people along every step were manning the heads of households, the heads of the church,

00:37:46.480 the head of the community organization, the fraternal organization, uh, the fire brigade that,

00:37:51.440 you know, and then the state itself, there is virtue at every step of the way. And because every man

00:37:57.220 understood virtue, they were able to remain sovereign in their domain. The virtuous father doesn't need

00:38:05.940 correction from the tribe and the virtuous tribal leader doesn't need correction from the church and

00:38:10.100 the virtuous church leader doesn't need correction from the state and the virtuous, uh, official at

00:38:15.000 the state, they have the final say, but they are acting for the good of the people. And you simply

00:38:22.060 cannot, you cannot avoid the fact that you must have virtue. It's inescapable. If you don't recognize

00:38:31.680 this, you don't get the problem. The problem is not the system. The problem is not that we have not

00:38:37.160 properly distributed government powers across number of branches, uh, that there's some flaw in,

00:38:44.540 I don't know, the commerce clause of the constitution that creates undue power for Congress. No, that's not

00:38:50.600 the issue. The issue is that the people weren't virtuous enough to stop Congress and the judiciary from

00:38:57.140 deciding what that clause meant. They didn't have the power to restrict the government through their

00:39:02.800 own will, through their own virtue. That's the problem. They were willing to give that power over.

00:39:10.860 And again, this is very scary because we think about places where like, okay, all the families and all

00:39:17.840 the governments and all these institutions in the South and the United States, they were fine with

00:39:22.040 segregation. So like, of course we have to go in and stop them at gunpoint. Well, okay. But none of

00:39:28.560 those things are sovereign anymore. You might disagree. You might say, oh, they were abusive.

00:39:33.820 They were abusing their power. They were unfair. Okay. But let's not pretend anything, but the state is

00:39:38.880 in charge at that point. Your federalism is gone. Your small government is gone. Your idea of checks and

00:39:44.720 balances, it's all gone because the state just tells people what to do at gunpoint. And what are you going to

00:39:50.120 do about it? Nothing. Right? Like that's it. Once you get to that point, once the state has that level

00:39:55.880 of power, then they make the decision. And maybe you agree with it. Like a lot of people did with

00:40:00.980 ending segregation, but make no mistake. You're saying the state has the final say in all systems,

00:40:07.440 in your business, in your church, in your social organizations, your personal business,

00:40:13.300 the government owns it all. The government has the authority to step in at any time. And once you've said

00:40:18.660 that, you've just ceded all more of the authority of the state. And remember, conservatives are on

00:40:22.660 board with a lot of this. They talk about small government, but ask them if they'd be okay with

00:40:28.580 the government stepping away and getting rid of something like the Civil Rights Act. All of a sudden

00:40:33.360 you get a whole lot of people. Oh no, we can't do that. We'll get Jim Crow back. Well, first, no,

00:40:39.700 we won't. Come on. Don't be ridiculous. Being racist is considered like the most evil thing you can do

00:40:43.960 in America. We're not going back to Jim Crow just because the government stops forcing people to

00:40:48.200 hire felons. But conservatives are still very, very scared of very simple things like scaling back

00:40:56.100 that kind of government interference. And the reason is simple. They have ceded all moral authority to

00:41:01.500 the government. And so any conservative who tells you, oh, well, I'm for small government, but I'm

00:41:06.340 keeping the Civil Rights Act. No, they're a liar. They're just a liar. Oh, I believe in liberty,

00:41:11.920 but we can't. No, no, you don't. Not at all. Not even a little bit. Because here's the truth.

00:41:18.620 If you want to keep government small, you have to put authority somewhere.

00:41:21.900 And that means that that authority might be abused by something that isn't the government.

00:41:25.600 And if you think the government is your only guarantor against these abuses, well, then you're

00:41:31.240 just a statist. You're just a big state guy. Like you're just a big government guy with extra steps

00:41:35.440 and you don't recognize it. You have to realize that if you're going to shrink the government,

00:41:41.120 if you're truly going to reduce the power of government, someone else has to rule. And if

00:41:45.260 someone else has to rule, they could abuse that power. They might make decisions that you don't

00:41:49.280 like and the government can't force them to change it. And that's how it actually has to work.

00:41:54.120 And if you don't understand this, if you don't allow for this, then you will inevitably get these

00:41:59.140 massive Leviathan states that we have. Now, a big part of this is, of course, also that our states

00:42:03.600 finally have the logistics to make this happen.

00:42:05.940 I wrote a whole book on this called The Total State, where once the government has built up

00:42:13.640 this technological ability to kind of managerialize everyone, squish them down, turn them into this

00:42:20.340 gray goo, apply these managerial different strategies to them because they have made them

00:42:27.220 all little automatons. If that's where you get to, the government can scale up almost infinitely,

00:42:32.120 but it does so by basically breaking down all these other spheres of influence.

00:42:36.540 The family no longer has authority because the state can do everything the family can do.

00:42:40.420 The tribe no longer has authority because the state can already do everything the tribe does.

00:42:45.300 The church no longer has authority because the state already does everything that the church does.

00:42:50.500 So the state does it all. It is the total state in every sense of the word.

00:42:55.220 And you have to get rid of that. You have to allow for that because power is no safer

00:43:01.500 inside the state. It's no more legitimate inside the state. Just because some of the badge walks in

00:43:07.800 and says, hey, stop doing that. It doesn't mean that they're going to use that ethically as the final

00:43:13.860 judge. But this is the problem. Again, conservatives, right-wingers, we look at power abuses by the

00:43:20.480 government in the UK right now, which are just insane and out of control, or even in America,

00:43:24.740 and we say, oh, we're against that. We're against, we're for small government. Are you really?

00:43:30.820 Would you really do what it takes to get rid of that authority and move it down other places?

00:43:37.540 Are you really willing to say, ultimately, the father is the head of the household and what he says

00:43:42.680 goes? The head of the tribe is the head and that's what goes. The head of the church is the head and

00:43:47.460 that's what goes. Are you really willing to say that? Are you willing? Are you willing to allow

00:43:53.120 decisions to be made at the fire brigade meeting and the fraternal order that aren't made at the

00:44:00.560 state level? Because if you're not willing to do that, then you're not conservative and you're not

00:44:06.060 for small government. You just want a different version of big government. And that's honestly what

00:44:12.100 most conservatives want. And that's what most libertarians actually end up creating.

00:44:17.060 Because the great thing about Bertrand de Juvenal is he's often called a libertarian. I have some

00:44:23.260 issues with that, but that's often the way that he is labeled. But he's creating this ordered liberty.

00:44:28.360 And by the way, this is why Hans Hermann Hoppe is the best libertarian, because he stole everything

00:44:32.560 from Bertrand de Juvenal. So if you enjoyed Democracy, the God that Failed, great. I enjoyed it too.

00:44:36.680 Great book. Now go read Bertrand de Juvenal because that's who he's ripping off. He's not just ripping

00:44:40.700 it off. I don't want to undersell Hoppe. He is adding important things, though I will say the

00:44:45.720 two thirds of his book where he's quoting Bertrand de Juvenal, I think is much better than the one

00:44:49.500 third of his book where he then tries to go off and create his own covenant communities. But even in

00:44:53.240 the libertarian paradigm, one of the points of Hoppe is that ultimately the community must be

00:44:58.700 willing to discriminate, right? It must be willing to discriminate. And that's why Hoppe is the most

00:45:05.800 based libertarian, because he recognizes that like, no, the community has the right to tell people

00:45:10.640 get out. You may remove them by force if necessary, right? This is the classic meme

00:45:17.260 with Hoppe. You have the right to select who's going to be there, because if you don't have that

00:45:21.960 right, you don't have sovereignty at all. And that means that ultimately you have to allow for the fact

00:45:27.440 that the community might expel people that you might have no problem with. But that's just how it

00:45:33.500 works. There's an authority, a sovereignty that exists in that scenario. And so if you're someone who's

00:45:38.960 talking about the dangers of big government, I want you to understand that, yes, I ultimately do

00:45:44.380 agree that a large government is a problem, but not in the way that you might be thinking. Because

00:45:49.200 I'm not saying get rid of this authority. I'm not saying that there should just not be authority.

00:45:53.800 No, authority will exist. It must exist. It must exist for order, and it must exist to keep larger

00:45:59.980 government under control. But the only way this happens is if we return authority to the places

00:46:06.080 where it belongs. We can't just be a libertarian who says, well, I want to be able to smoke my meat,

00:46:10.900 weed, and get gay married, and blah, blah, blah. No. No. Like, it doesn't mean that it's a free-for-all.

00:46:17.500 It's not libertine. It's ordered liberty. You have the liberty to pursue the good inside your

00:46:23.320 tradition and your religion as it is understood by your people. That is liberty. And it will be

00:46:30.000 governed by people inside your community who follow that tradition. And they will have legitimate

00:46:34.460 authority over you. Your father will have authority over you. Your tribal leader will have authority

00:46:38.720 over you. Your church leader will have authority over you. And then finally, if they must, the state

00:46:45.440 will be there. But if you don't have those intermediate institutions, you will never have small government.

00:46:50.260 And no conservative telling you about cutting a budget somewhere or eliminating government

00:46:54.960 programs. I'm in favor of all those things. But those are not the actual solution to the problem.

00:47:01.560 That's like treating an arm being blown off with a Band-Aid. Like, yes, I guess at some level,

00:47:09.580 at least you're stopping some bleeding. But you are not getting to the root problem here.

00:47:13.820 So yeah, cut USAID and get rid of these programs, the Department of Education, all that stuff.

00:47:19.460 I'm on board with all of it. But do not pretend this is the final answer to small government because

00:47:23.820 someone's going to rule. And if you ignore the fact that someone's going to rule, then the people

00:47:28.560 who do rule will do so without accountability. And that is how you definitely get big government.

00:47:35.600 All right, guys, I'm going to head over to the questions of the people here real quick. We've got a few.

00:47:39.900 Ram Zwingel says, someone is going to rule. So why shouldn't it be our guys? Let's have corruption

00:47:48.940 work for us for once. Well, again, I totally agree that we should have people who believe what we

00:47:55.260 believe, who have our traditions, have our faith, have our understanding of the good in charge. Now,

00:48:00.940 I wouldn't call this corruption. I would just say that it is okay to have a certain level of affinity

00:48:07.460 for people who share your beliefs, your tradition, your way of life. There's nothing wrong about that.

00:48:14.260 There's nothing immoral about that. People call this nepotism in a lot of instances, right? Oh,

00:48:19.120 he's hiring his son. He's hiring people from his community over the best candidate. Good.

00:48:23.680 Good. You should. You should do that. You should pass your things on to your children.

00:48:30.700 You should pass your traditions and your power and your abilities on to the people who are related

00:48:36.240 to you, who share your faith, who share your beliefs, who share your way of life, who you are bound

00:48:42.160 together by deep roots. You should prefer them. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, optimizing by

00:48:48.460 bringing in other people is a huge problem, and that's how you got to where you are.

00:48:53.680 So actually, yes, you should absolutely be doing it. Again, I wouldn't call that corruption. I would

00:48:56.620 just say that's just, you know, the way that every other society has existed throughout history.

00:49:04.540 Treadle says, uh, Stephen Wolf's observation in gynocracy ethics is not good and evil, but safe and

00:49:10.900 scary. Power is often scary, rarely safe. Clearly we must, uh, HR fight. Well, yeah, this is right. This is

00:49:17.380 kind of a classic male, female dynamic. Uh, Helen Andrews has just, uh, released kind of a piece and a

00:49:23.560 speech that have gone pretty viral on this issue, right? She talks about the difference between how

00:49:27.420 men and women perceive power. Men are more likely to embrace conflict and then bury it as where women

00:49:32.940 are more likely to try to avoid conflict, but never forgive it if it occurs. So a woman will, uh, just,

00:49:39.920 just kind of evolutionarily try to make sure she's constantly safe because having a child, having to

00:49:45.960 care for children is incredibly, uh, you know, vulnerable, uh, thing. And so she will try to

00:49:51.800 like be agreeable with as many people around her as possible. And if someone is disagreeable to her,

00:49:56.620 she automatically sees that as a threat because she's so vulnerable that any level of disagreement,

00:50:00.820 any disagreeableness could like blow back on her and put her in a terrible situation. By the way,

00:50:05.620 there are a lot of guys who'll be like, well, then that means, you know, no, that that's perfectly

00:50:09.600 reasonable. Like you need to value this aspect of, of being a woman, right? Like that doesn't mean you

00:50:15.800 want it to rule your society, but don't pretend that they didn't develop that proclivity for a

00:50:20.660 reason, right? This is a successful strategy for women across the board. That's why they do it.

00:50:27.720 Okay. So it's not, it's not that this is wrong at a certain scale. This is the right way for women

00:50:32.600 to behave at a certain scale. It's just that scale shouldn't be the power of the state, right? That that's

00:50:38.540 where the problem is. It's not that women have this instinct. It's that if that instinct is

00:50:42.300 misapplied at the wrong scale, then it creates a problem. Men are much more willing to wield power,

00:50:49.900 take these chances, right? Because that's what we're designed to do. The man is really honestly

00:50:54.720 supposed to be disposable. More men die than women. We know this. We know this because they tend to be

00:51:00.740 bigger and stronger. That's going to shorten your life. They're more likely to engage in acts that are

00:51:06.280 risky, like physical combat or labor that is more intensive. You don't hear a lot of women saying,

00:51:11.080 Hey, I really wish that I could get involved in those jobs where you're more likely to get

00:51:15.360 electrocuted or fall off ladder, that kind of stuff, right? Like it's, it's just not a thing.

00:51:19.820 Now the upside is that means that like when big dangerous or big powerful things get done,

00:51:26.180 it's usually met because men are more willing to take those risks and put themselves in those

00:51:31.320 positions. But it also means that when like the worst things in the world are done,

00:51:35.580 it's also because men kind of did them, right? Like greatness can be both uplifting and terrible,

00:51:40.420 but it tends to be masculine in the sense, again, not every time there are of course,

00:51:45.020 women who are called very capable of greatness. And there are men who will live their entire lives

00:51:50.000 trying to be as safe as possible, right? Like these are not hard and fast individuals, very quite,

00:51:56.260 quite widely, but as an observable trend, that's true. And so when we do have this search for power

00:52:02.640 that is more feminine, then yes, you will get the more feminine social expressions. Again, not because

00:52:07.800 women are evil or anything, but because that's just a natural manifestation of who they are playing

00:52:12.840 itself out. And that can be very valuable in settings like family or community, but it can be a

00:52:19.000 real hindrance when you're looking at a nation where you must wield decisive power, when you must often

00:52:24.840 kill or punish people. You must do radical things that, that are, that are very aggressive and very

00:52:31.120 transgressive and will create a lot of hate for you. A lot of blowback. That, that is something that

00:52:36.160 a lot of women do not like and cannot handle very well. Some women can, there are women out there

00:52:40.900 going to do it, but that is just an observable reality. So when you have women in charge in those

00:52:45.040 ways, you will see less of that behavior, which ultimately for something at the scale of state power

00:52:49.840 can be quite the issue. All right, guys, we're going to go ahead and wrap it up. Looks like that's

00:52:56.040 all of our questions for today. I want to say thank you to everybody for stopping by and watching. If

00:53:00.860 it's your first time on this channel, of course, you need to subscribe on YouTube, click the bell,

00:53:05.160 notifications, all that stuff. So, you know, when we go live, if you want to get these broadcast as

00:53:08.900 podcasts and you just subscribe to or Macintyre show and your favorite podcast platform. And if you do

00:53:13.520 leave a rating or review, it really helps with the algorithm magic. Thank you everybody for watching.

00:53:18.060 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - October 27, 2025

Someone Will Rule ｜ 10⧸27⧸25

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