The Auron MacIntyre Show - South Africa Goes Full Communist？ Land Expropriation Explained ｜ Guest： Ernst van Zyl ｜ 2⧸5⧸25

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00:00:30.400 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:32.140 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.740 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.780 I'm far from the only one to point out that South Africa is an interesting test case internationally

00:00:44.120 because in many ways it has done a speed run of the ideology that has otherwise infected many Western governments.

00:00:53.420 Now obviously South Africa has a very different political dynamic that is all its own.

00:00:58.080 But by observing what's going on there, we can really understand some of the implications of what has been happening in the larger West.

00:01:06.120 And Donald Trump this week spoke up about what is happening recently.

00:01:10.460 An expropriations bill has been passed in South Africa that would make it easier for the government to reapportion land from those that own it,

00:01:19.000 especially on a race-conscious based system.

00:01:22.720 And so discussing that with me today is Ertz Van Zeele.

00:01:26.500 He's been on the podcast a number of times.

00:01:29.060 He is the public relations manager for the human rights organization Afroforum.

00:01:34.240 Thank you for joining me, man.

00:01:35.140 Hey, Oren. Nice to be back.

00:01:37.500 And I'm looking forward to the conversation.

00:01:39.320 Some fascinating stuff to unpack.

00:01:41.580 Yeah, it's always great to speak with you.

00:01:43.260 Obviously, you're at the tip of the spear.

00:01:45.960 You are involved in an activist organization fighting in South Africa.

00:01:50.640 And you're very aware of the different events on the ground.

00:01:54.480 So while we get little snippets, little bursts of what may or may not be happening in South Africa,

00:01:59.640 it's good to discuss directly because I've already seen a number of Western outlets twisting, shaping, trying to,

00:02:06.300 especially now that Donald Trump has spoken out and brought attention to this,

00:02:09.800 give what's happening in South Africa a different shade.

00:02:14.060 And so I want you to go ahead and maybe just lay out for the basics for people.

00:02:18.760 What is this bill that has been passed in South Africa?

00:02:22.380 Right. So there's a fascinating timeline, actually a detailed timeline,

00:02:27.340 but I'll give you the cliff notes for the for the sake of time.

00:02:31.000 So it's the first important date, I think, to mention is 2018.

00:02:35.740 So what happens in 2018?

00:02:37.020 In 2018, the ANC pushes or announces that they are pushing to amend the Constitution,

00:02:44.280 specifically Section 25 of the South African Constitution, the property rights clause,

00:02:49.520 to enable expropriation without compensation.

00:02:52.380 For those that maybe don't know the lingo, expropriation without compensation just means

00:02:57.340 the government can take your property without paying you a cent.

00:03:01.560 And what happens in 2018 is the process gets started to amend the Constitution,

00:03:06.920 to pretty much abolish the private property rights clause within the Constitution.

00:03:10.380 These types of processes take a while.

00:03:13.820 So it only concludes by 2021, where the government then goes to a final vote in Parliament and it fails.

00:03:22.360 And the reason why it fails is a very big plot twist.

00:03:25.820 It actually is quite funny.

00:03:27.340 So what happened was you need two thirds majority within Parliament to pass a constitutional amendment.

00:03:33.160 The ANC had about 57% and their allies, the far left parties within the Parliament.

00:03:39.960 Yes, the ANC is a leftist party, but you can go even more far left than the ANC.

00:03:44.740 They and their far left allies were able to cobble together an alliance that's more than two thirds of the Parliament.

00:03:52.740 But that alliance crumbled and they didn't get the two thirds support because the far left thought that they're not going to vote to approve this constitutional amendment

00:04:02.860 because they didn't think it goes far enough and they think they've got enough support.

00:04:06.680 If they push the government, they can actually make it go even farther.

00:04:12.300 So what happens is, excuse me, I see there's an alarm going off here.

00:04:18.180 Just give me one moment.

00:04:20.280 No problem.

00:04:20.800 No problem.

00:04:22.740 Well, while he checks on that, hopefully everything's all right.

00:04:25.740 But as Ernst was laying out, there has been a long road to this.

00:04:29.600 We've had this discussion or discussion around this topic a number of times.

00:04:33.480 And so this is just the final step in a process that has been ongoing for a long time.

00:04:38.740 Everything OK?

00:04:39.780 Yeah, 100%.

00:04:40.580 It was just a false alarm here.

00:04:42.280 So what then happens is in a strange twist of fate, private property rights in South Africa are saved by left wing hubris.

00:04:51.720 They bite off more than they can chew.

00:04:54.500 They think we can take this even farther.

00:04:56.420 We're not going to accept the abolishment of private property rights.

00:04:59.380 We want all property to be in the custodianship of the state.

00:05:02.780 So they push the ANC and say, we're not going to vote with you for this constitutional amendment and that that opportunity fails and property rights are safe for the time being.

00:05:12.600 At the time, AfriForum warns and says, well, you guys have to understand, I know there's a lot of celebration.

00:05:19.160 Our private property rights have been saved, but these guys are going to come back.

00:05:22.540 They're going to try again to amend the con.

00:05:25.400 They're going to try again to make expropriation without compensation possible.

00:05:28.600 And we are proven right just a few days later when the then Minister of Justice, Ronald Lamola, comes out, talks to the media and says, the first attempt to make expropriation without compensation possible has now failed.

00:05:42.220 We will now move on to alternative ways to make it possible.

00:05:45.840 One of these ways will be through the pushing through of legislation to make it possible.

00:05:51.200 The legislation that he's talking about here is the expropriation bill, which now has been turned into the Expropriation Act in 2025.

00:05:59.760 The next point on that timeline that's very important is about 2022, where the president of South Africa, Sooram Aposa, is giving an address to his ANC supporters.

00:06:11.040 And he says the purpose of the Expropriation Act is to make sure or to ensure that we can expropriate property with zero or nil compensation.

00:06:22.640 2020, fast forward to about 2024, Deputy President Paul Machetile says the same thing.

00:06:29.160 He's asked about the terminology within the expropriation bill, but it says nil expropriate, it allows expropriation with nil compensation, but not expropriation without compensation.

00:06:40.220 And he says, well, we as the ANC understand nil compensation to mean no compensation.

00:06:45.900 So the goal of this bill is to enable expropriation without compensation.

00:06:51.260 And then just to tie it all together, the little bow on top, why am I underlining this nil compensation, no compensation point?

00:06:59.620 Because that's been the main angle of attack since Trump's post.

00:07:05.600 Because now Trump says, well, expropriation without compensation is going to happen in South Africa.

00:07:11.000 And now the ANC and all the entire PR and propaganda industrial complex have been mobilized to say, well, it's not expropriation without compensation.

00:07:21.360 It's expropriation with nil compensation.

00:07:24.060 It's not the same thing in quotation marks.

00:07:26.640 It is the same thing.

00:07:28.060 Nil just means it's a synonym for no.

00:07:30.960 Nil means zero. 0.99

00:07:31.940 No, it's a very cheap language game that they're trying.

00:07:35.880 And not only a lot of people are falling for it, some international outlets seem to be falling for it.

00:07:40.860 But I mean, that's why I mentioned those key quotes from the deputy president, from the president and from the former minister of justice, because they made it very explicitly clear two very important things.

00:07:52.140 Firstly, the difference between nil compensation and no compensation, there's no difference in the mind of the ANC.

00:08:02.180 It means the same to them.

00:08:03.780 And secondly, the explicit goal of the Expropriation Act is to enable expropriation without compensation.

00:08:10.860 So now they're trying to rewrite history and change the narrative.

00:08:13.980 But the Internet never forgets all of these things are there for the for the seeing.

00:08:19.240 You can go find them.

00:08:20.100 You don't have to go dig through the archives.

00:08:22.200 Yeah, this is a very strange thing I noticed when researching this through Western media.

00:08:27.140 When I was looking at this, the first thing is just anything called an expropriations act should be scary, right?

00:08:34.420 The name itself implies we are going to be taking your property by force, and that's never great.

00:08:40.440 Now, in the United States, we have eminent domain, and that requires just compensation if the government needs something for a project.

00:08:49.280 But even that, which is technically in the Constitution and the Fifth Amendment, is abused regularly by governments.

00:08:56.060 And people are very worried, even with those very strict protections inside the Constitution, that that process is being abused on the behalf of developers and others who are cozy with the government and want to eminent domain your property in order so they can.

00:09:10.960 Yeah, they have to pay you for it, but you are forced.

00:09:14.200 You are compelled to give a property you don't want to give up, even with compensation, and that is considered an abuse of the power.

00:09:20.460 So already, even with compensation, we're already talking about a power that is rife for abuse, no matter what kind of financial restitution is made.

00:09:29.620 And then when you look in the Western media, whenever I see this discussed, as you point out, they say, oh, well, with compensation.

00:09:35.940 But as you're pointing out here, that's just not the case.

00:09:39.040 Like, this is clearly not what the intention is, even if they're trying to fudge around with the language a little bit.

00:09:45.620 And I know they hate Trump, I get that that's like part of the thing, but are they really expecting to cover for what is functionally communist theft of land by just saying, well, they might throw them a few dollars or something at the end of the day?

00:10:02.480 Hmm. And I mean, that's the thing about South Africa is it is already the current legislation before the Expropriation Act already allows for expropriation with compensation.

00:10:15.180 That's it's such a key nuance, but everyone is either willingly or unwittingly just ignoring that fact.

00:10:22.840 They're saying, well, everyone has expropriation laws.

00:10:25.420 What are you talking about?

00:10:26.340 But the key thing is it's expropriation without compensation.

00:10:29.360 And as I say, the other more sneaky approach to say, well, it's not because expropriation without compensation is a very scary term in South Africa, because that's exactly the terminology that ZANU PF in Zimbabwe use.

00:10:42.040 They use the term expropriation without compensation.

00:10:45.000 So that's why they're talking about expropriation with null compensation in this act.

00:10:49.940 Try and defang it a little bit so it doesn't sound as scary.

00:10:53.900 Unfortunately for them, it doesn't seem to be working.

00:10:56.020 Everyone understands that if your boss tells you I'm going to pay you null salary this year, you're not going to be very happy about it.

00:11:03.220 So that's that's what's going on here.

00:11:05.920 And as I say, the ANC might be a weakened party, but they still have a very powerful PR and propaganda industrial complex machine out there.

00:11:15.220 And that that machine kicked into high gear this week.

00:11:18.600 I mean, we saw that happening and it's targeting my organization, Afri Forum and any other organizational individual that's standing up and saying, but you guys have been saying for the past five years that you are absolutely going to expropriate private property and you want expropriation without compensation.

00:11:35.680 And this bill is how you're going to achieve it.

00:11:38.440 We've connected all the dots.

00:11:39.960 We believe you when you say that.

00:11:41.540 But now now suddenly everything has changed.

00:11:43.940 Yeah, there's a name for work with null compensation.

00:11:48.140 It's called slavery, right?

00:11:50.020 That's the that's the terminology here.

00:11:52.820 And what we're talking about is really, you know, the theft of land by the government on a regular basis without having any need to compensate the person, pay them back in any way for what's been stolen from them.

00:12:06.360 Again, there's a word for that it's called communism, where the government can take from everyone according to what they have and, you know, redistribute it in the way that they see fit.

00:12:16.620 Now, the kind of subtext behind this is that this isn't just communism, though, as you've pointed out when you've been on the show many times, many of these South African parties have deep ties to communism, often will explicitly praise it or, you know, be adjacent.

00:12:36.240 Just a quick, quick detail there in South Africa, the ANC is actually a tripartite alliance.

00:12:42.580 And so the ANC is part of this alliance of three different parties.

00:12:47.020 One of them competes in elections, the ANC.

00:12:49.540 The other two, just like parasitically, are a tie to it.

00:12:52.780 They don't really compete in elections, but they do influence policy.

00:12:57.120 I mean, they influence the ANC.

00:12:59.100 Their members get appointed as ministers and within the state apparatus.

00:13:02.860 And that tripartite alliance are the three parties, the ANC, the African National Congress, KUSATU, which is all the labor unions in South Africa.

00:13:11.320 And the SACP.

00:13:13.980 What is the SACP?

00:13:15.180 The South African Communist Party.

00:13:17.240 That's why when you Google President Sorama Poza South African Communist Party or President Sorama Poza SACP, you get photographs of him doing speeches in front of like a backdrop of hammer and sickles that look like it's been Photoshopped, but it's real.

00:13:33.160 So just wanted to underline your point there.

00:13:35.940 I mean, communism, it's not something that you have to go down a rabbit hole to find in South Africa.

00:13:41.060 It's quite in the open.

00:13:42.600 Yeah, and on top of that, like I was saying, you know, the reason that there's such a charged atmosphere around, you know, this expropriation, it would be terrible no matter what.

00:13:55.260 The implications of this kind of communist government would be terrible no matter what.

00:14:00.340 But specifically in the case of South Africa and unfortunately, you know, for a large part across the globe, the communism is also paired with a racial bias, right?

00:14:11.940 This is race communism. 0.91

00:14:13.040 I mean, this is a lot of what is going unsaid by the media when it comes to expropriation, expropriating from who, for what cause, redistributing to whom, why, right?

00:14:25.780 So for people who don't know, is the expropriation just going to be random?

00:14:30.720 Are they just choosing people off the street?

00:14:32.880 Is it only rich people?

00:14:34.660 All the rich people are losing their property or is there a specific target for this expropriation?

00:14:40.040 Well, to answer that question, all we really have to go on is the rhetoric of the ANC itself.

00:14:46.180 So what is the rhetoric around expropriation without compensation?

00:14:49.520 Well, in South Africa, it has like an official title with capital letters.

00:14:52.940 It's called the land debate, almost like this, the sacred, the sacred thing that you take part in, where there's, they literally call it the original sin, the original sin of land theft by evil white people in the past. 0.70

00:15:07.740 And that original sin needs to be rectified by almost literally a divine intervention, which would be expropriation without compensation, redistribution of land.

00:15:19.340 And that's how they talk about these issues.

00:15:21.860 So when you ask the question of what are their intentions in regards to who's going to be targeted?

00:15:27.060 Well, if your entire rhetoric, everything you say around property and land revolves around the narrative that whites own 150% of land or 1,000% of land, then if you're making those types of claims, it's very clear that if anyone's going to be expropriated from to redistribute to fix a problem, the problem being this original sin of land theft in the past, 0.80

00:15:54.860 then by default, the people that are going to be dispossessed have to be Afrikaners and white South Africans.

00:16:02.500 Otherwise, you're not going to achieve your divine end of perfect equality in regards to land ownership and property ownership in South Africa.

00:16:10.200 And why I'm so exaggerating when it comes to the statistics that I'm mentioning is the ANC literally talk like that.

00:16:17.880 Now, they don't really use terminology like 150% of land, but they say things like white people, the 5% minority own 70% of the land or 80% of the land in South Africa.

00:16:29.620 You've probably seen that statistic in very Soviet-esque fashion.

00:16:33.620 They do these studies and these audits and they do their little ideological science, the National Democratic Revolution science in the background.

00:16:42.760 And then their prophets come forward and say, we have determined through our research that white people own this amount of land and property in South Africa. 0.71

00:16:52.680 But they can't explain how.

00:16:55.140 The research is worth less than the paper it's written on.

00:16:58.940 It's literally based on vibes.

00:17:00.820 It's literally based on, well, we looked at these statistics and we tortured the statistics a little bit and then it screamed out this answer.

00:17:07.920 That's how they go about it.

00:17:09.760 But to wrap it up, I mean, that's to give you any hints about what they intend.

00:17:14.520 If the entire conversation around land ownership in the country revolves around this grand religious narrative of white people own all the land and it's because it was stolen in the past and we need to rectify it, who do you think is going to be targeted?

00:17:31.360 There's only one logical conclusion.

00:17:33.620 Otherwise, the sums don't add up.

00:17:36.020 If the red team owns all of the resources, the only way to redistribute the resources is to explicitly depossess or to confiscate from the red team.

00:17:47.340 Anything else would not achieve anything even close to redistribution.

00:17:53.180 So we're talking about a country in which a song about killing the boar is sung from the local-

00:18:00.280 Beautiful metaphorical song.

00:18:01.660 Nothing literal about it at all.

00:18:02.880 Yeah, can't actually draw any conclusions from this.

00:18:05.420 But yeah, this genocidal statement is sung from political stages in South Africa.

00:18:12.780 And even if they're not saying explicitly in the legislation, hey, this is going to target Afrikaners or white South Africans, as you point out, the rhetoric attached to everything else they're doing makes it very clear.

00:18:25.280 There's only one conclusion if you're based on the rhetoric, yes.

00:18:28.540 Right, right.

00:18:29.200 And so that creates a scenario where they're winking to the international community.

00:18:34.420 Well, this is just about equity.

00:18:35.940 We're just making sure everyone has opportunity to these kind of things.

00:18:40.180 But internally, the politics are very clear as kind of where the shoe is going to drop.

00:18:45.620 My question for you would be what percentage of South Africa is white?

00:18:52.440 And of that, what percentage is Afrikaner?

00:18:55.660 So in South Africa, there's about four points.

00:18:58.860 And unfortunately, this is a bit outdated, these statistics, because like a lot of other things that the government does,

00:19:05.720 the census is not up there with one of the world-class pieces of research that the government conducts.

00:19:12.800 I mean, we had a new census in 2022, I think, that is not cited by anyone because it was just one massive disaster.

00:19:21.760 It's unusable so bad it was conducted.

00:19:24.880 So I have to go on the 2011 numbers.

00:19:27.360 So, but I'll adjust them a little bit based on just my gut feeling where they are at the moment.

00:19:33.460 So the white population in South Africa is in the range of about 4.5 million, between 4.5 and 5 million.

00:19:41.040 And about 2 point, between 2.7 and 3 million of that are Afrikaners.

00:19:45.460 So about 5% of the population are white, and about 2.5% or about 2.7% around there of that minority are the Afrikaners.

00:19:56.540 So the Afrikaners are a majority within the white minority, and the white minority is about 5% of the population.

00:20:04.020 Now, as you pointed out, South Africa is not the only African nation to have gone through this process to face many of these issues.

00:20:12.500 And Zimbabwe famously has had a great difficulty in getting its agriculture going and providing for its food-based needs since it made sure that white farmers basically weren't working the land anymore, weren't in possession of the land.

00:20:30.920 Does any of that reflect in the way that the South African government treats this issue?

00:20:38.000 I mean, you've seen this movie play out before, you know where it goes.

00:20:42.860 Is it just a simple, they're so corrupt that they're going to offer this, even if it starves their people?

00:20:49.400 Or what is the motivation behind this, given the context in which this has already happened in other nations?

00:20:54.880 Hmm. So there's two very important details here.

00:20:57.980 The first detail is that the ANC have no, it's no secret that the ANC praise and hail Robert Mugabe as a hero, as a revolutionary hero, a hero of the revolution.

00:21:08.960 And it's not an idealized version of Mugabe as in, well, none of these, the land grabs and the atrocities happen.

00:21:16.780 It's not an idealism based on denial.

00:21:20.300 It is an idealism based on, yes, all of that happened and it's a good thing.

00:21:24.380 And that's the type of idealism you see from the ANC.

00:21:28.560 It's not a denial of, no, no atrocities were committed.

00:21:31.200 No, land was not confiscated in Zimbabwe.

00:21:33.560 No, it is, yes, land was confiscated in Zimbabwe.

00:21:37.060 Yes, expropriation without compensation happened in South Africa.

00:21:40.140 And Robert Mugabe is a hero.

00:21:41.840 That's their stance, which, again, just destroys any form of trust that anyone will have in them when they try to assure people in 2025.

00:21:50.080 No, we deeply value the constitutional rights of private property, while at the same time hailing Robert Mugabe, a tyrant that plunged his country into chaos due to expropriation without compensation, while at the same time hailing him as a hero.

00:22:07.740 The second aspect to that answer is the fact that when it comes to particularly what is driving the ANC, my colleague Barant Ace actually summed it up very nicely.

00:22:19.780 He said about a week ago, in his words, and I quote, I think people are underestimating how far the ANC are willing to go to hold on to power.

00:22:30.080 They are willing to burn down the country in order to rule over the ashes.

00:22:34.140 I mean, that's literally what the ANC, from what I can see, are willing to do based on the policies that they're pushing through.

00:22:40.720 They're not pushing through these policies based in some deep ideological principle, even if it's in the leftist sense, ideological vision of we will bring about a utopia through these policies.

00:22:53.200 No, they're doing it out of a very, very cynical push of we need to do anything possible to hang on to power.

00:23:01.320 I mean, it's no coincidence that they pushed through this bill after they dropped to 40% below 50%.

00:23:08.520 So South Africa has been a one-party state for 29 years.

00:23:12.180 And then in 2024, in our elections, the ANC dropped to 40% and they went into coalition with a bunch of former opposition parties.

00:23:20.340 But they're still ruling as if they're a 50-plus party.

00:23:23.700 So it doesn't really matter.

00:23:24.860 It's just a little, at the moment, it's just an aesthetic.

00:23:29.140 It's just based on vibes.

00:23:32.320 It's literally called the government of national unity.

00:23:35.300 But the government of national unity is passing the most extreme policies that we've ever seen in post-1994 South Africa.

00:23:43.020 But yeah, the vibes are positive.

00:23:45.680 So just to finish up there, I mean, that's what's driving the ANC.

00:23:50.660 It's a party that idealizes Robert Mugabe and it's a party that's willing to hold on to power no matter what, even if it ruins millions of lives.

00:24:00.120 I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but South Africa was a nation with a space program at some point, right?

00:24:07.560 And with nuclear weapons that we developed ourselves, yes.

00:24:10.720 Yeah.

00:24:11.120 And dismantled.

00:24:12.940 I think South Africa has the title of the only country in the world that developed nuclear weapons and dismantled them.

00:24:20.400 I would say it's a wonder that you would look at a country that was that advanced and decided to go from a functional space program and a nuclear program to not even being able to operate an electrical grid and possibly driving themselves to the point where they might not be able to feed themselves due to this kind of ethnic hatred built around land use. 0.61

00:24:47.740 But at the same time, I'm living in the United States and we were going the same direction, but slower.

00:24:53.440 So I guess I can't be too stunned.

00:24:56.340 I mean, I hope ultimately that the arrival of Donald Trump and his desire to dismantle a large amount of the programs that have been pushing the United States that direction changes what's happening here.

00:25:08.640 Obviously, Trump posting about South Africa brought a lot of attention to what is going on there now.

00:25:15.820 You've been on the show many times kind of telling us about this journey, warning that this final step would come.

00:25:23.220 But here we are and Trump is announcing it in a way that makes it many people across the globe aware of what's going on.

00:25:30.660 What do you think about Trump making that statement and what has been the fallout?

00:25:35.160 Has that brought international awareness?

00:25:37.480 Has that just made everybody in the country double down, increase the pressure on Afroform? 0.99

00:25:45.980 What has been the fallout of Trump getting involved?

00:25:48.680 Well, that's the meat and potatoes of the conversation.

00:25:51.600 I mean, well, firstly, Russell Lombardi, my good friend and economist here in South Africa, sums it up.

00:25:56.600 He says South Africa is the leading de-developing country in the world.

00:26:01.040 I mean, we're going backwards in a lot of senses.

00:26:03.260 I mean, we had a functioning rail network.

00:26:06.220 The other day, me and my wife were driving down from the capital, Pretoria, to Cape Town, and we saw a freight train, a functional freight train.

00:26:13.200 And we both reacted like we saw a cryptid, like we saw Bigfoot.

00:26:16.640 We both like shouted out, look, a working train.

00:26:19.240 And it just is a symptom of what's happening around us.

00:26:25.040 So what's been the fallout?

00:26:26.960 Well, firstly, I think what needs to be understood is two things.

00:26:30.860 One, the ANC and the government of South Africa is in total panic stations.

00:26:37.260 The one thing that they're not very good at, well, there's many things that they're not very good at, but the one thing that they're particularly bad at is having a poker face in the face of crisis.

00:26:46.200 So the ANC are clearly panicking.

00:26:50.020 They are not even, they're trying to hide it, but nobody's falling for it.

00:26:53.240 They're lashing out.

00:26:54.420 They're looking for scapegoats.

00:26:55.780 They're attacking left and right, screaming about misinformation, screaming about words like treason and betrayal.

00:27:03.140 And Donald Trump is X, Y, and Z, all the bad words under the sun.

00:27:10.140 And I mean, my organization, AfriForum, the ANC put out an official press statement attacking my organization, AfriForum, for spreading disinformation that has now led to this.

00:27:21.040 And ignoring the fact that it's their radical policies and pushing of extremist policies and attempts to abolish private property rights that brought this on them, AfriForum just told the world, can you guys like put like one eye on South Africa?

00:27:37.580 Just come have a little look.

00:27:39.140 We have something to show you.

00:27:41.020 Just come check here.

00:27:42.200 That's all we did.

00:27:42.920 We kind of hold up a mirror to the ANC, and we tell the world, come look for yourself.

00:27:47.040 Don't believe what we say.

00:27:48.540 Come see what we say.

00:27:50.000 Come look for yourself.

00:27:51.100 Do research.

00:27:51.860 Come see.

00:27:52.400 Have a look.

00:27:53.540 And that's the one aspect, is the ANC are on complete panic stations.

00:27:57.780 They're lashing out.

00:27:58.660 They're putting out press statements, attacking civil society organizations like AfriForum, screaming about misinformation, never saying what the misinformation is, never saying how they know we're spreading misinformation.

00:28:10.200 As if, I mean, if they have such intimate knowledge about what we're telling people in the Trump administration, I mean, then they're going to have to admit that probably they have a, do they bug our meetings?

00:28:21.520 Do they listen in on our phones?

00:28:22.720 How do they know?

00:28:23.420 How do they have the secret knowledge?

00:28:25.280 But that's the one aspect.

00:28:26.760 The other aspect, which I think a lot of analysts are missing, is, yes, on the one side, the big damage to the ANC and the South African government is the retraction of funding and the threat of future funding.

00:28:38.420 That's the other thing that's critical to understand.

00:28:41.420 Yes, Donald Trump has announced that he's cutting off aid, but I mean, he's cut off aid to many other countries.

00:28:46.820 What I see, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, what I'm seeing in what Trump is doing here is he's threatening escalating cutting off of aid.

00:28:55.720 For example, ending trade agreements like AGOA that are based pretty much agricultural trade agreements based on private property rights being protected and respected and cutting off other forms of funding as well and other agreements as well.

00:29:09.480 I don't see this as Trump saying, well, we've cut off aid all across the world and in your country for special reasons.

00:29:17.260 I think the aid being cut off is something separate to much, much broader cutting off of aid and punishment coming South Africa's way, which is worrying.

00:29:27.960 Because at the same time, AfriForum does not want to see the citizens of South Africa punished.

00:29:33.260 We want to see the corrupt politicians and extremists within the government punished.

00:29:37.120 But the other aspect here that a lot of analysts are missing is that, yes, there is that one aid aspect, the aid that's been canceled and the threat of future funding that the ANC and the South African government is worried about.

00:29:54.160 But I would go as far as to say that the majority of the fuel that is fueling this outrage response, this panicked response, is not necessarily a financial drive.

00:30:06.020 It is rooted in a phenomenon that some people are missing.

00:30:10.020 It's the phenomenon or the fact that the ANC have no immune system against international criticism.

00:30:17.400 For the first 20 plus years of their reign in South Africa, they were the golden boys of the world.

00:30:25.600 They could do no wrong.

00:30:27.480 They were untouchable.

00:30:28.880 They were pretty much the party of the progressive paragon of the 21st century.

00:30:34.480 And everyone was saying how they want to emulate the ANC, the party of Nelson Mandela.

00:30:39.560 They were called, they were pretty much called the role model party.

00:30:46.080 And there's literally nothing wrong that they can do.

00:30:48.560 And that's the environment within which the ANC pretty much got used to for the past 25 plus years.

00:30:57.760 Only recently that they burned through that almost infinite mountain of international goodwill.

00:31:05.860 I think they believe that mountain was infinite.

00:31:07.940 I think they believe the international goodwill could never run out.

00:31:10.840 If I was in their position, if I looked at how I was treated by the rest of the world, I would also start believing that my international goodwill has no limit.

00:31:18.980 But it did have a limit.

00:31:20.460 And they burned through that goodwill in the past, just past five, six, seven years at a breakneck speed.

00:31:27.820 To the point where now it is running out.

00:31:30.660 And they don't know how to react.

00:31:32.360 They don't know how to function in an international setting, in an international environment where they can actually be criticized, where they can actually be attacked, where they can actually be told what you're doing here is wrong.

00:31:45.040 We don't agree with what you're doing here.

00:31:47.020 What you're doing there is destructive or extremist.

00:31:49.840 And that's why I think the main drive behind their reaction is particularly from that point.

00:31:55.220 It's like a child that grew up only with compliments.

00:31:58.800 He's never experienced any negative word in his life.

00:32:01.360 And then in his 20s or in his 30s, he gets the first real piece of substantial criticism in his life.

00:32:10.240 And he just shatters.

00:32:11.680 And he doesn't know how to react.

00:32:13.600 That's what's happening with the ANC at the moment from a Trump post.

00:32:18.420 Yeah, that's a really interesting dynamic to bring up.

00:32:20.980 Because, of course, as you point out, post-apartheid, which is the most evil thing that has ever happened to a human being in the existence of mankind. 0.93

00:32:28.880 Yeah, there was this idea that any government that follows it has to be blessed somehow, right?

00:32:35.600 It's got this dispensation to just rule in the name of progressive enlightenment.

00:32:41.660 And it's going to set all these wrongs right.

00:32:44.300 And it's going to bring everyone onto equal footing.

00:32:46.980 And the magic wand has been waved over this once racist state.

00:32:51.660 And that's going to kind of solve all of these issues.

00:32:53.900 And so when you're in this environment, when you're kind of inheriting this post-apartheid politics in a global liberal order, you're going to be the golden boy.

00:33:04.440 You're going to, like you said, you're just going to receive nothing but compliments.

00:33:07.760 You're never going to have any discipline.

00:33:09.760 All the gates of probably international financing and other things are open to you because they want to see the project succeed.

00:33:16.340 And you're the one who's supposed to bring about the right of these wrongs.

00:33:20.380 But then when you see that the performance is poor, that the corruption is high, that the abuses are real, maybe that takes a little bit of the shine off the apple.

00:33:31.140 But you've still got the backing of most of the global liberal order.

00:33:34.300 They're still kind of on your side.

00:33:35.620 But as you point out now, yes, Trump has said there's no aid to be had there.

00:33:41.680 The international aid is not just for South Africa, but many different countries.

00:33:45.800 But the fact that there could be consequences, right?

00:33:48.040 He's throwing around the idea of tariffs and trade relationships.

00:33:51.140 He's saying an investigation has begun.

00:33:53.240 An investigation implies that whatever that investigation finds could either be aggravating or be lessening on the consequences.

00:34:02.700 Right. And so you have the scenario where not only would there be consequences from the United States and, you know, Trump is evil and all those things.

00:34:09.980 So maybe you can play it off that way.

00:34:11.760 But more importantly, you can feel the global liberal order weakening overall, right?

00:34:16.620 We didn't have it to the same extent in here in America.

00:34:19.480 But very clearly over the last 10 years, progressives who were very firmly in control of the institutions of the United States basically ran through all of their goodwill as well.

00:34:29.640 Right. They burned down all of their their their credentialism and all of their moral superiority just so they could lock people in their homes and steal a bunch of their stuff and punish their political enemies, throw them in jail, hit them with all these false charges.

00:34:43.480 And so it's kind of a terrible time for the ANC to kind of double down on this because they as you say, they're kind of taking for granted this goodwill that they don't have.

00:34:55.100 They're assuming this immunity that came from the global liberal order just as that liberal order is kind of starting to fall apart.

00:35:02.500 And so it seems like they're betting on a large stock of, you know, funds and goodwill that simply don't exist.

00:35:10.260 And they're going to but they're going to continue to play as if they have those cards in their hand to their own destruction.

00:35:17.240 Well, I think that I think you're absolutely right.

00:35:20.240 And the best metaphor for that is the ANC is a nail and they're being asked to screw in a screw.

00:35:25.740 They they can't do it. All they can do is try to just hammer the screw in.

00:35:30.540 But as any carpenter will tell you, that's a terrible idea.

00:35:34.680 There's a quote by a South African investigative journalist that I actually have a lot of respect for.

00:35:39.940 Yes, they do exist here in South Africa still.

00:35:42.320 James Myberg, he's the editor of Politics Web, a fantastic publication here in South Africa.

00:35:48.540 And he summed it up so brilliantly this week in his quote.

00:35:51.820 He said that, and I quote, the Trump administration's efforts to pressure the South African government to close the door that the Expropriation Act is trying to open represents the first time in living memory that the leader of a Western democracy has sought to check the ANC's kleptocracism as it enters its final and most ruinous phase rather than excuse, enable or profit from it.

00:36:18.600 Given this history, the apoplexy that this has provoked among sections of our commentariat with cries of lies and treason is truly a breathtaking sight to behold, end quote.

00:36:31.000 And I think that that sums it up perfectly.

00:36:32.900 So people who have watched this channel before have seen you talk about this, but just in case it's someone's first time hearing about what's going on in South Africa or learning about Afroforum, can you explain just real quick what Afroforum is and why it would be the target of the ANC in a moment like this?

00:36:50.360 So Afroforum is a community-based solutions organization in South Africa that also has a human rights or a constitutional rights element to it when it comes to protecting particularly the rights of minority groups and especially Afrikaners and Afrikaans speakers in South Africa.

00:37:08.440 And it's a community, but we have a strategy that is two-pronged.

00:37:13.560 So we call it the fight and build strategies.

00:37:16.000 On the one side, the fight side, we do lawfare, we do court cases, we do international pressure, we do political pressure.

00:37:24.700 But on the other side is the build side.

00:37:28.580 The build side, you see throughout what we call the solidarity movement.

00:37:32.840 So Afroforum is just one node within what we call the solidarity movement, which is a network of 50-plus Afrikaner organizations that each specialize in a particular field.

00:37:44.300 So there's a long list.

00:37:45.900 You have, for example, Soltech, which is a technical college that we built.

00:37:49.700 There's Solidaritate, which is the Christian labor union.

00:37:52.820 There's Solidaritate, Help and the Hunt, which is our welfare organization.

00:37:57.980 There is our canton, our private construction company and property development company.

00:38:08.180 And the list goes on.

00:38:10.500 But when it comes to particularly what Afroforum does, as I said, we have the fight side.

00:38:15.600 But the build side is we mobilize communities to become what we call state proof.

00:38:19.940 If we, through any type of form of taking back responsibility, and that was so refreshing to read in your book that you come to the same conclusion, that the only way to fight the total state is to start taking back more responsibilities, the responsibilities that we've given up over the years, over the decades, over centuries, to the total state.

00:38:40.000 The only way to fight back effectively is to take up those responsibilities.

00:38:44.260 Again, it's not going to be easy.

00:38:45.880 It's going to be difficult.

00:38:47.280 You're going to have to give up a lot of luxuries, a lot of free time.

00:38:50.720 But in the end, it's worth it.

00:38:52.140 But that's exactly what Afroforum is doing, not in theory, in practice.

00:38:56.180 So we have, for example, we're pioneering a private firefighting unit at the moment, which has been very successful.

00:39:02.920 We just started it last year, and we're already planning on rolling it out to other cities.

00:39:08.200 We have a massive security network all across the country of 175-plus neighborhood watches.

00:39:14.800 And these aren't your grandma's neighborhood watch with pepper spray and a little logbook to write down crimes in.

00:39:21.820 These are well-trained and well-equipped community members that are organizing to make their community safe because the government is failing to make their community safe.

00:39:30.780 Then we also have solutions in the field of water, in electricity.

00:39:36.460 And it's still early days in regards to what we can do, but we're making major progress there.

00:39:41.700 We're putting an increased amount of resources, particularly into water, seeing as the water system, the water infrastructure in South Africa is crumbling.

00:39:50.480 So in regards to, I mean, we can get into what we're going to, how we're going to be challenging the Expropriation Act as well.

00:39:56.800 But in short, what we do is the government has in South Africa is, as Rasul Lombardi says, the world's leading de-developing, is in charge of the world's leading de-developing country.

00:40:09.800 And de-development means that the state's capacity is constantly degrading, and it's creating this massive vacuum.

00:40:16.360 And that vacuum can only be filled by one of two factions, either the good guys or the bad guys.

00:40:22.820 The bad guys are organized crime.

00:40:25.200 The good guys are communities and your own institutions and organizations.

00:40:30.860 That's why South Africa, because we have this big void, is a playground and a great case study of both the good guys and the bad guys in that binary.

00:40:43.040 South Africa has amazing success stories of state-proof solutions, but also has some of the most sophisticated, advanced organized crime networks in the world.

00:40:55.240 We have a mafia for every sector in South Africa.

00:40:57.860 We have a construction mafia, a mining mafia, we have a mafia mafia, we have a mafia within every single sector in the country.

00:41:06.540 Organized crime has infiltrated.

00:41:08.700 We have a water mafia in South Africa.

00:41:11.080 So that's the context within where AfriForum is fighting back, but we're achieving major success, and I'm very proud to be part of it.

00:41:19.680 Yeah, that's an important reminder that when people want less of the state, they have to remember that if they don't fill the void, as you say, if the good guys don't fill the void, then the bad guys will.

00:41:33.840 The state doesn't just disappear, and then everything, the perfect individual just begins to do their work and live their life in kind of this libertarian utopia.

00:41:44.900 What happens is people organize, and either the good guys organize, the communities organize, and they work for the good of the people in the area in which they live, or the bad guys organize, and they become parasitic.

00:41:57.320 But something is going to get organized, and someone's going to control an area, and so those that wish for the state to be rolled back, that they want to see less of a total state, you know, obviously South Africa is getting us in a less than ideal way.

00:42:11.180 It's not a voluntary option that the state is simply so incompetent and so corrupt that its ability to project power collapses, and these other organizations, good and bad, fill the void.

00:42:23.360 But many who would like to see it voluntarily occur need to remember the same thing, that the responsibilities that you're talking about, the organization that you're talking about, is incumbent on any people that would like to take back that power.

00:42:36.460 And so it's not enough to simply say, I want smaller government.

00:42:39.480 I want an end to these giant states.

00:42:42.160 You must become virtuous.

00:42:43.780 You must take on responsibility.

00:42:45.160 You must organize.

00:42:46.820 You must fill your time with the things that once created and maintained civilization, because you no longer have this giant state doing it for you.

00:42:56.020 And when your state is a rather evil one, in the case that, unfortunately, that South Africa is currently facing, that could be good in some areas.

00:43:04.600 But if they're going to turn their powers against you, that's something that you have to watch out for.

00:43:09.680 And that was going to be my next question, given the reality of this bill, what actions do you expect from the South African government?

00:43:20.000 And what are the responses that Afroforum is planning to fight against it?

00:43:24.340 So firstly, I think, and this is still speculative, I do think this post and action by Trump is going to have a massive effect on what's going to happen.

00:43:37.240 And I say that because the ANC up until this point has been strutting around.

00:43:42.600 They've been confident.

00:43:43.720 They've been saying, we're just going to do X, Y, and Z.

00:43:46.400 There's nothing you can do about it.

00:43:48.140 We are still in power.

00:43:49.620 We still have the power to do what we want.

00:43:52.000 They were strutting around like the world belonged to them.

00:43:56.680 And as I said, now that's completely been shattered.

00:43:59.900 They've just now, they're cowering in the corner.

00:44:02.640 And I don't think they're going to have the confidence, at least in the short and medium term, to really go full in in regards to what this act enables for them.

00:44:13.860 And I think that at least, at the very least, Donald Trump has bought us very valuable time in regards to that.

00:44:20.180 It reminds me of the social experiment that I saw a while back, long ago.

00:44:25.160 So they put a bowl of money next to the street that just says, take as much as you want.

00:44:29.800 And then within like the first hour, all the money is gone.

00:44:33.420 And they do the same experiment again, same place, bowl of money, sign that says, take as much as you want.

00:44:38.880 But they put a poster up on top of the bowl that is just a poster of two big eyes watching the bowl.

00:44:46.800 And then nobody takes any of the money.

00:44:48.940 At the end of the day, the bowl was still full of money.

00:44:51.320 Nobody was willing to take it.

00:44:52.560 But the only factor was they put the psychological fear of you are being watched into the equation.

00:44:58.040 And I truly believe that that psychological aspect is going to play a role in the future of what's going to happen with this bill or with this act.

00:45:09.760 So we're very, very thankful for Donald Trump's intervention there.

00:45:14.020 What's AfriForum going to do?

00:45:15.440 Well, AfriForum has a multifaceted strategy on how we're going to respond.

00:45:20.680 And there's a lesson in there as well that I want to impart on Americans.

00:45:24.300 But we'll get to that maybe at the end.

00:45:26.200 So our strategy is multi-pronged.

00:45:29.320 Firstly, we have a three-point plan.

00:45:31.740 Firstly, the first point is that the Expropriation Act has been signed by the president.

00:45:37.500 But for it to be enacted, for it to be proclaimed, it has to be co-signed by the minister that has to turn it into action, that has to execute it.

00:45:47.540 That minister is the Minister of Public Works, Dean McPherson, who is associated with the former opposition party, the Democratic Alliance.

00:45:56.200 The Democratic Alliance rejects the expropriation bill, or at least in their rhetoric they reject it.

00:46:01.900 So AfriForum met with the minister and sent him a letter saying that, pressing him that he under no circumstances should co-sign the bill, which will put the bill's implement or the act's implementation in crisis.

00:46:15.640 It's unknown what will happen then, but we'll see.

00:46:19.280 The president will likely be then forced to fire the minister, but he will have been fired then on a matter of principle, rather than signing a bill and legitimizing a bill that his party rejects.

00:46:29.960 And if the DA's minister does sign that bill, legitimizing it, it's a death sentence for that party, so they don't have pretty much have a lot of a choice.

00:46:40.420 That's the one angle that we're going in at, putting pressure on the minister to not co-sign the act.

00:46:47.020 The second aspect is the legal aspect.

00:46:49.340 As I said, AfriForum has a fight component to our strategy, and that is testing the bill, taking it to the high court and testing its constitutionality, taking it all the way to the constitutional court, which is the South African version of the Supreme Court, if necessary.

00:47:04.960 That's the other aspect.

00:47:05.980 And then thirdly is the international pressure aspect, which Donald Trump has already played a massive role in, informing our network of contacts and allies abroad, how they can put pressure on the South African government, how they can help and how they can spread the word, and how they can support us.

00:47:26.220 That's the three-point plan, but it's also not in isolation.

00:47:29.620 That's just the Expropriation Act fight plan.

00:47:33.180 Then there's the Build plan, where we all increasingly focus on creating state-proof solutions in our communities, following the philosophy of the hedgehog or the porcupine philosophy, rather, where you make yourself as inedible as possible.

00:47:49.620 You make your community as impenetrable as possible and in as many facets as possible.

00:47:56.980 And I think there lies one of the major lessons for Americans.

00:48:03.480 It's that story of the guy in the bar fight.

00:48:06.880 He's completely outnumbered.

00:48:08.360 There's 10 guys. 0.98

00:48:09.160 They say they're going to murder him. 1.00

00:48:10.560 And then he says, fine, you can try and kill me, but one of you is going to lose your eyes. 1.00

00:48:15.680 I'm going to poke out one of your eyes. 0.99

00:48:17.840 And who of you is going to be willing to do that? 0.84

00:48:19.840 And none of those 10 guys gang up on him is willing to take a 10% chance or a 1 in 10 chance that they're going to be blinded at the end just to kill one guy so they leave him alone.

00:48:30.120 That's the porcupine approach of making yourself actually resistant to attack from the outside.

00:48:38.660 That's why there are still porcupines in the Kruger National Park here in South Africa, the large nature reserve that has lions and leopards and any massive predator that you can imagine.

00:48:49.800 But these small porcupines are abundant because a porcupine spikes in South Africa.

00:48:54.980 Go Google or look on YouTube porcupine versus lion or porcupine versus leopard or badger versus leopard or lion.

00:49:02.300 And it's an animal that thrives on the same principle of where the porcupine has spikes, the badger has a very, very, very thick skin that's impenetrable to even a predator's bite.

00:49:14.160 So that's the way you survive, particularly as a minority, when there are predators as big as the total state out there, is you make your community as inedible and as dangerous as possible through spikes or a thick skin.

00:49:28.820 And there's many ways to do that.

00:49:30.220 As I explained, many of the operations that AfriForum do are particularly to achieve this, specifically our nationwide security network that we've built.

00:49:40.160 So, I mean, that's in the end.

00:49:42.200 The final lesson there that I think Americans can learn, and I've noticed this when I describe some of our solutions, Americans and Europeans, also Westerners in general, will zero in on one aspect of your strategy.

00:49:56.480 For example, the legal strategy, and they'll say, you're wasting your time, the courts are corrupt, the courts will never help you in any way, why are you doing this?

00:50:06.240 Because you have to use, the answer is you have to use every single avenue and every single opportunity at your disposal.

00:50:13.480 Yes, ideology has infected many of South Africa's courts, but they're far from useless.

00:50:18.980 The AfriForum have won many court cases to stop destructive policies from the ANC.

00:50:25.500 And that's the reason why we're taking this to court as well.

00:50:29.260 It doesn't mean we're putting all of our eggs in that one basket.

00:50:32.060 If that strategy fails, there's five other strategies and tactics we're also employing at the same time.

00:50:37.340 It's the metaphor of the military.

00:50:39.500 I mean, the military is not just made out, you don't win a war just with infantry.

00:50:43.540 Infantry are a powerful tool in your arsenal, but you also have a Navy, you have an Air Force, you have a mechanized unit, you have artillery, you have all these different units that act in tandem, all serving a particular role in your strategy.

00:50:58.980 I mean, it's you that always talks about you have to capture castles.

00:51:02.620 I always talk about you have to dig trenches, but it doesn't mean you just have to dig trenches or capture castles.

00:51:08.660 You can walk and chew gum at the same time.

00:51:10.540 You can capture castles, dig trenches, bombard your enemy's positions.

00:51:14.700 There's many different strategies and tactics that you can use, and you should be using them at the same time.

00:51:20.420 Because if you use them in tandem, they start dovetailing and start complementing each other.

00:51:25.280 And when they do that, they start enhancing and elevating each other to a point where when they are in sync, they are much more powerful as a sum together than as any one individual part.

00:51:37.360 Yeah, there's a lot of wisdom there.

00:51:40.700 There are so many people who said it's impossible for anyone meaningful to get elected.

00:51:47.780 And even if they get elected in the United States, they're never going to go after the deep state.

00:51:51.660 They're never going to go after all these different agencies.

00:51:54.220 They're never going to dismantle the leftist patronage networks and indoctrination and all of this stuff.

00:52:01.340 And the chance was always there.

00:52:03.020 So the answer was always you work on the national level, yes, but you also work on the local level, right?

00:52:08.880 Because it's great now that this thing that would never happen, that will never get anybody who's going to do that stuff, that it is happening now.

00:52:16.680 That avenue did at least to some degree seem to bear fruit.

00:52:20.660 But you never rely entirely on that.

00:52:23.400 You assume that at some point that might not work or Trump might not get it all done or there's some aspect of that that won't be complete.

00:52:30.140 And you still need to do the work at the community and the state level.

00:52:33.540 You still need to strengthen your community, the ability of your state to resist all your local governments, sheriffs, all these things.

00:52:40.780 They need to be ready anyway.

00:52:42.480 And so you should use this moment with Trump in the United States as a moment to secure castles, dig trenches, build more, fight, like you said, have a fight and a build strategy simultaneously.

00:52:55.200 Don't leave it to just one or the other.

00:52:56.800 But it is funny how, you know, the people who constantly complain that nothing ever happens and nothing's ever going to win and there's no victory in sight and there's no way you can overcome these things.

00:53:07.660 Well, those people are still sitting around complaining online and the people who are building and the people who are working and the people who were, you know, yes, not buying into everything, not drinking the Kool-Aid, not worshiping any individual.

00:53:18.800 But we're actively taking the opportunities that were available to them.

00:53:22.600 They're the ones that are going to succeed.

00:53:24.300 And as you're saying, in South Africa, no different, right?

00:53:27.160 You're pushing on multiple avenues.

00:53:29.220 Where you get a victory, fantastic.

00:53:31.480 Where you don't, you just redirect to one of the other tactics.

00:53:34.200 The important thing is that you're working.

00:53:36.520 The important thing is that you are planning to make a difference and that you are willing to apply across so many domains the resistance necessary to protect you, your community, your people, and everything else involved there.

00:53:49.260 So I think that is really important for people to take away.

00:53:53.280 And of course, you know, I hope, I don't want the United States, you know, militarily or financially involving itself in other nations, but to the extent that Donald Trump can bring a light to what's happening, obviously Elon Musk being a South African himself, also very aware of the dynamics of play there.

00:54:10.700 The more that they can bring the light, what's happening there, and assist you guys in any diplomatic way or media relations way possible.

00:54:18.420 I think that's excellent.

00:54:19.460 I'm glad that that's something that they can contribute.

00:54:22.440 For anybody, we were going to, we got a few questions of the people here real quick.

00:54:26.920 For anybody who wants to follow your work or know more about Afroforum, is there anywhere you want to direct them?

00:54:32.500 So I think most of your subscribers might have seen me on your show before, so they will know that I post under Conscious Caracal on X or on YouTube.

00:54:44.320 On YouTube, I just interview interesting people, both from South Africa and abroad, about topics that I think are both relevant to South Africa and the wider West.

00:54:53.840 I don't really do current events on my channel.

00:54:56.400 I talk about more lessons for the future and strategy and tactics.

00:55:00.360 And on X, I have comments on what's happening in South Africa, sometimes on what's happening abroad.

00:55:05.980 And if you want to support Afroforum, I know there's, Oren put a link in the description.

00:55:11.800 You can become an international member of Afroforum.

00:55:14.760 That's a new feature that we just added recently.

00:55:18.300 And or you can make a once-off donation.

00:55:20.920 Because the dollar is so much stronger than the rand or currency, don't tell yourself, well, what can my little small donation do?

00:55:28.100 Your small dollar donation goes a very long way in South Africa.

00:55:32.660 I mean, when it comes to international support, there's still, Afroforum doesn't even get 1% fraction of our financing from international support.

00:55:43.260 We get all of it from our membership base in South Africa.

00:55:46.640 But we've just now added this new feature where you can become an international supporter as well.

00:55:52.020 So you can follow that link in the description for that.

00:55:55.140 Just wanted to add there quickly, Oren, when you were talking about how the battlefield works, there is one lesson that we learned from the ANC that was very valuable.

00:56:06.000 And that is the concept of the balance of forces, as they call it.

00:56:09.280 They learned it from the Soviets and they still use it today.

00:56:11.680 The balance of forces is actually, it sounds very theoretical, but it's actually quite simple.

00:56:16.780 The balance of forces dictates that before you make any decision, you take into account what the weight of the different forces, the different pieces on the board are.

00:56:28.160 And if they are in your favor, you move forward.

00:56:30.400 If they are not, you regroup, you readjust, and then you do the calculation again.

00:56:35.440 And the lesson there that's so important is the fact that you need to constantly be working to increase your weight on the board, to increase the power of your little chess piece on the board.

00:56:48.020 Because the other chess pieces or the other pieces on the board, you can rest assured, are fighting to increase their weight on the board in that balance of forces.

00:56:57.040 And the best way to influence reality is to constantly use from every angle at your disposal, build up that center of power, build up that weight on the board.

00:57:07.720 And the more your value in the balance of forces, the more you can get done.

00:57:15.060 So that outlook, I mean, we're applying that lesson that we learned from the ANC in our own politics as well.

00:57:20.840 If you're still too small to make a difference, well, then you better start thinking about what are some of the basic things that I can start doing or my organization can start doing or my community can start doing to increase our resilience and to increase our hitting power or our just power in general in the larger game.

00:57:42.200 Don't just write it off.

00:57:43.760 Don't just write off, say, well, I'm too small to make any type of difference.

00:57:47.060 All the big players on the board started off small and started accumulating power, and it is really a snowball effect.

00:57:55.180 Yeah, the best political victory, the only real political victory is the one that makes the next victory easier.

00:58:02.420 Absolutely.

00:58:03.320 Yeah, but even if you have to start in a small way, if you don't think you're going to make any difference, finding a way to make the next victory easier to accumulate enough power so the next victory rolls.

00:58:14.720 Like you said, it creates that snowball effect, and that's definitely key to any form of activism.

00:58:20.140 All right.

00:58:20.740 Well, let's go over to our questions from the people real quick.

00:58:25.040 Lowbrow here says, how did you manage to find such a smart guy with a mustache that would make a free state traffic cop jealous?

00:58:33.080 And then I can't pronounce that.

00:58:35.040 I'm sure.

00:58:35.540 Yeah, he says that last word is stark to roykat.

00:58:37.900 It just means all the best to you, caracal.

00:58:41.680 Excellent.

00:58:42.280 All right.

00:58:42.660 Well, there you go.

00:58:44.220 Let's see here.

00:58:45.520 Mana Yud Susha says, in a war to impose global Zimbabwe, we are all Rhodesians now.

00:58:55.880 And then we have Lowbrow again, and he says, when this is all over and we have won, I would love to see Oren chat with Ernst Roths of Afroform about metal.

00:59:06.680 Till then, check out some Windai Wolf.

00:59:10.640 Yeah, so that's my colleague, Ernst Roths.

00:59:13.500 He is also part of the Solidarity Movement.

00:59:15.660 Dr. Ernst Roths, even though he will never introduce himself as such.

00:59:19.920 He, I mean, he's a senior figure within the Solidarity Movement.

00:59:24.360 He was from Afroform, but I mean, he's still, he's still my colleague, seeing he's still in the same constellation of organizations.

00:59:30.020 He just got a massive promotion.

00:59:32.020 But he's also a metal head, and he also has his own metal band called Somes Vendi Wolf that translates to, sometimes the wolf wins.

00:59:40.300 And their music is free, and you can find it on YouTube.

00:59:43.940 Oh, nice.

00:59:44.460 Yeah, no, he was, I met him, I believe, with you at NatCon.

00:59:48.380 He was at NatCon with me, yes.

00:59:50.100 Oh, man, we could have had the metal discussion, and we didn't.

00:59:52.760 What a shame.

00:59:53.720 But I will make sure you have his contact details so you can chat to him.

00:59:57.940 Maybe you can talk about African politics for 45 minutes and then 15 minutes of metal talk.

01:00:03.740 Yeah, it wouldn't be the first time I've pulled that trick.

01:00:06.140 It's a metal discussion thinly veiled in the guise of political theory.

01:00:11.120 Then let's see here.

01:00:12.400 We've got Robert Weinsfeld says, MZRA and a shout out to the American Tribune.

01:00:19.720 I'm not sure.

01:00:20.660 Do you have any context for that one?

01:00:24.200 No?

01:00:24.820 All right, you translated the last few messages, so I didn't know if you would know more about that one.

01:00:29.080 I don't have a context for MZRA, no. 0.92

01:00:31.600 I didn't either.

01:00:32.220 Yeah, the American Tribune is an outlet online, but I don't know about the MZRA.

01:00:37.360 But thank you very much, Robert.

01:00:38.920 And then we've got Broman Hank, which, again, I believe is something in Afrikaner there.

01:00:46.880 Yeah, he says, yes, very nice.

01:00:50.160 Yes, very nice.

01:00:51.740 How is it going with you?

01:00:53.860 All right, see, they could all be saying terrible things, and you could just be being very nice to me and protecting me from the…

01:00:59.020 No, they're being very nice and quiet.

01:01:00.660 Okay. 0.63

01:01:01.020 You know, the South Africans could have joined to troll me, you know, like, who knows? 1.00

01:01:05.340 All right, guys.

01:01:07.240 Well, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up.

01:01:09.700 But, of course, like I said, if you are not familiar with Afroforum or Ernst's work, you should most definitely check those out.

01:01:16.200 But like I said, if for no other reason than just the on-the-ground experience of building is really critical.

01:01:23.780 Again, I'm glad that Trump is doing good things.

01:01:27.060 I'm excited that he's expending his influence, not just the United States, but places like South Africa in a positive way.

01:01:33.020 But ultimately, we cannot rely on the idea that Trump himself will fix everything.

01:01:38.780 We need stronger communities.

01:01:40.160 We need stronger localities.

01:01:41.800 We need stronger states.

01:01:43.080 And South Africa gives you a roadmap for how to do that in the harshest climate.

01:01:46.820 So if you have something that isn't as harsh, it should be easier to get it done, right?

01:01:51.180 And that's a great way to study and understand what's working there and what can be applied in the United States or your nation if you're living somewhere else.

01:02:00.000 If this is your first time on the channel, of course, you should subscribe on YouTube.

01:02:05.080 Click the bell, notifications, all that stuff.

01:02:07.320 If you'd like to get these broadcasts as podcasts, you need to subscribe to The Orr McIntyre Show on your favorite podcast platform.

01:02:12.780 And if you'd like to pick up my book, The Total State, which Ernst has talked about a couple times here, you can get it in both print and now in audio book format.

01:02:21.180 Thank you, everybody, for watching.

01:02:22.580 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - February 05, 2025

South Africa Goes Full Communist？ Land Expropriation Explained ｜ Guest： Ernst van Zyl ｜ 2⧸5⧸25

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