The Auron MacIntyre Show - The Alternative to Postmodernism ｜ Guest： Gio Pennacchietti ｜ 4⧸22⧸24

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00:00:30.180 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.860 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.320 I've got a great stream with a great guest that you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.360 So Columbia University is under siege.

00:00:40.000 It feels like every couple years we have to have a university campus

00:00:44.140 that erupts into some kind of, you know, sit-in, massive protest, lockdown, woke eruption.

00:00:50.880 And we're going to touch on that.

00:00:52.840 We're going to look at all the dynamics at play.

00:00:54.840 I also want to talk about post-modernism.

00:00:57.860 It is the greatest boogeyman of our time.

00:01:00.180 But I think it's also something that deserves to be properly understood, properly addressed

00:01:04.460 as we look for, hopefully, alternatives to many of the theories that progressives have put forward for our current situation.

00:01:12.080 And joining me to do that is one of the foremost online experts on post-modernism.

00:01:17.440 He's an artist.

00:01:18.660 He is a prolific podcaster.

00:01:20.900 Gio, thanks for joining me, man.

00:01:22.600 Oh, I'm glad to be here, Oren.

00:01:23.960 And it's always great when we get together.

00:01:26.540 I think it's a lot of fun.

00:01:28.380 You let me ramble on.

00:01:30.380 Who is in the chat?

00:01:31.280 Ruffian.

00:01:32.100 Can Gio finish two sentences without derailing himself?

00:01:34.000 No, I cannot.

00:01:34.880 No, I cannot.

00:01:35.620 Oh, I'll try.

00:01:36.240 I'll try.

00:01:36.800 I'll try.

00:01:37.640 But yeah, it's great.

00:01:38.680 Great to be here.

00:01:39.720 You're a powerful speaker.

00:01:40.960 You're a powerful, you know, presence on any live stream.

00:01:44.060 You're wearing your court-mandated fez.

00:01:46.240 And so I think, you know, people are-

00:01:48.500 There's a tracker in here.

00:01:49.440 I'm going to be under house arrest soon, according to-

00:01:51.260 Right, yeah.

00:01:52.440 The Canadian government is, you know, they're awarding fezes to all of the people they want

00:01:56.900 to make sure to prepare to move and, you know, concentrate in any specific locations

00:02:02.260 they might need to.

00:02:03.360 All right, guys.

00:02:04.400 So, like I said, we're going to get into the siege of Columbia University and post-modernism.

00:02:11.280 But before we do that, let me tell you about your absolute moral duty to hire based people 1.00

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00:03:19.060 All right.

00:03:20.000 So like I said, this stream was originally going to be about postmodernism.

00:03:23.680 We're definitely going to get to that. 0.61

00:03:24.980 But we have to talk about the news of the day, especially when it's ridiculous.

00:03:29.900 And the hot story right now is the protest. 0.54

00:03:33.220 It's been going on, I think, for five or six days at Columbia University.

00:03:38.440 It's a pro-Palestinian protest.

00:03:40.980 And a lot of people are up in arms about many of the things that are happening there.

00:03:45.500 You've got a giant tent city. 0.58

00:03:47.220 It's been declared an autonomous zone.

00:03:49.740 The students are taking over.

00:03:51.180 Are they doing the Chaz thing again? 1.00

00:03:52.660 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:03:53.280 It's all the terrible, you know, quasi-Marxist lockdown stuff.

00:03:57.940 Like, oh, you know, no one can walk through without, you know, their reparations pass or whatever.

00:04:04.060 People scream in all kinds of stuff at possibly Jewish students.

00:04:08.580 We've got a guy who, of course, looks exactly like this, you know, trying to stop a professor for coming on to the campus because he's Jewish.

00:04:18.680 A lot of people, very angry, large protests going on here.

00:04:22.440 And it's interesting because the response to this has been, oh, got rid of Gio instead of getting rid of this.

00:04:31.260 All right, there we go.

00:04:32.100 So the response to this has been very interesting.

00:04:35.700 We've had a lot of people screaming about actions that need to be taken.

00:04:40.860 We've had a lot of people saying, you know, this is the next Charlottesville, which is a very interesting framing for many people on the right to take.

00:04:48.540 Or, you know, from the mainstream conservative view to take.

00:04:53.740 But I feel like this was inevitable, right?

00:04:56.040 This has been building for a long time.

00:04:58.120 You know, there's been this back and forth of kind of inter-left-wing political discourse or, you know, infighting.

00:05:07.440 You know, are the woke going to be in charge or kind of more of the establishment left that tend to be more pro-Israel in charge?

00:05:13.960 What's going to be the dominant faction inside the left on universities?

00:05:19.740 Yeah.

00:05:19.940 And we've had, you know, the first you had the pro-Palestinian side strike with all of these protests.

00:05:26.500 And then you kind of had the pro-Israeli side, you know, kind of strike with the firing of a number of administrators or other people put under pressure to make sure that they're kind of pushing back.

00:05:36.980 And now we see kind of the reemergence of the woke vanguard.

00:05:41.240 What do you make of this, Gio?

00:05:42.680 Well, it's hard to say because, again, on the one hand, it is sort of like the importing of ethnic rivalries into the domestic politics.

00:05:53.680 Although I will say that this is different because of the relationship between the American government and the Israeli state.

00:06:02.880 Now, unlike a lot of people in political right, I tend to be more sympathetic with the Palestinians.

00:06:08.060 I think the actual things that are going on are quite terrible.

00:06:11.680 And I pray for the end of the destruction of human life as quickly as possible.

00:06:18.640 And I mean, whether you want to talk about proportionate responses to what happened on October 7th is a different issue.

00:06:27.040 But it's certainly the actions that have been taken or have been incredible and have been devastating.

00:06:33.180 But that being said, when it comes to these protests, it's one of those things that, again, to relate to the main topic about postmodernism.

00:06:39.900 And it's one of those issues where political categories tend to be shaken up and tend to be mixed.

00:06:45.920 Because on the one hand, the political discourse in America, particularly among normative conservatives and normative liberals, or what constitute the mainstream, is that, yes, of course, you know, the right wing or rather conservatives are pro-Israel.

00:07:01.880 And the left have been sort of on the pro-Palestinian side for so long.

00:07:08.220 And a criticism of that is inconceivable from the right wing because, of course, criticism of that state in the Middle East from the right is, of course, verboten and illegal and so forth.

00:07:19.760 But that being said, I think that there is a weird mix of political categories because there are numerous critics who are either the political right or even conservatives that are looking at the actions in Palestine.

00:07:32.780 But I think what's really key is to divorce the greater leftist sort of activism you see in university with the concrete issues of what's going on in the ground in Gaza.

00:07:45.560 And that's very difficult because, of course, the political left has monopolized this issue for so long.

00:07:52.000 But when it comes to university campuses, it's interesting because out of all the issues, this is the one that gets the ire of the state where they arrested Ilhan Omar's daughter, I believe, got arrested or she was escorted out of university.

00:08:10.280 Because, of course, all the elite kids, they all go to, like, Columbia or Harvard.

00:08:15.000 Yeah.

00:08:16.180 And whether, I mean, personally, I mean, oh, man, I sound so, I know what I'm going to sound like.

00:08:22.160 But as much as I do not like someone like Ilhan Omar, I do think that escorting and, you know, suspending her daughter, if she hasn't done anything wrong, that's kind of like, wow, that's pretty severe.

00:08:39.480 But I will say that the intimidation and towards professors who are Jewish or students who are Jewish, of course, that's, you know, that shouldn't be allowed.

00:08:51.840 But see, this is the problem with this inter-leptist conflict is because where do you set in the progressive stack?

00:08:59.000 Do you side with Israelis or Jewish academics or do you side with the largely student body who do side with Palestine?

00:09:10.800 Because this is one of the few times in which the elite opinion of the left do not line up with the, you know, pedestrian or the ground level grassroots opinion of most people.

00:09:21.500 Most people on the ground who are of the political left are very pro-Palestine.

00:09:26.340 But when it comes to the actual institutions, the actual fortitude and testing of it, that's what the problem is.

00:09:34.260 Now, my prediction will be that I think the political left can find a synthesis or a solution in terms of American domestic culture or politics.

00:09:45.120 What they will do is they will sort of, and evoking Charlottesville is very interesting in this regard.

00:09:52.140 I think what they'll do is they'll start, they'll focus and they'll hammer down on trying to rein in the quote unquote anti-Semitism on a cultural level.

00:10:02.520 Right. But they'll say that criticizing Israel is not in itself a criticism of Jewish people proper.

00:10:09.500 And they'll sort of try to square that circle.

00:10:11.620 Now, whether they can square that circle is difficult because, of course, nowadays, especially in university campuses, you have a lot of different people of different backgrounds that do not share the same cultural understandings or the same historical understandings of people, for example,

00:10:28.860 who have come from a Western European or even Eastern European or North American ancestry, who have grown up with the sort of the awareness and the consciousness of the last century.

00:10:41.640 Right. When you have people of vastly different cultural understandings, then then this is a very big problem when it comes to this issue in particular.

00:10:52.800 And like I say, I'm very sympathetic to people of the Palestinians themselves.

00:10:57.060 I think what's happening is, you know, very it's an atrocity.

00:11:02.060 But that being said, I mean, yeah, I mean, this is from a right wing angle.

00:11:06.580 This is a very sticky issue, though.

00:11:08.360 And I don't know if we should say any more, but I think that the political left will try to wrap it up.

00:11:15.920 And the political left will try to sort of mediate an understanding between accommodating people of one ethnicity and accommodating the vast majority of people who are pro-Palestinian.

00:11:27.480 Will it happen all of a sudden? No.

00:11:29.720 And I think these university protests are a growing pain.

00:11:32.200 And one last point, I'm very sorry for rambling.

00:11:34.660 But one last point is that you do see this sort of cultural model of university protest, the way that and the way that it was structured is coming from the boomers, coming from the 60s.

00:11:47.740 This is, you know, the 68 Democratic National Convention or this is Kent State all over again.

00:11:53.620 And, of course, I mean, I hope the police don't go out of their way to hurt protesters, obviously.

00:11:58.640 It's their right to protest.

00:12:00.440 I don't think that intimidating certain students should be, you know, allowed, of course.

00:12:06.000 That's crossing the line.

00:12:07.300 But, I mean, yeah, I mean, the reality is that it's their right to protest, of course.

00:12:12.160 But I think that there will be a number of growing pains when it comes to intra-leftist discourse.

00:12:18.940 That's pretty obvious.

00:12:20.000 Sorry, I rambled.

00:12:21.200 Yeah, there you go.

00:12:21.900 No, no, that's fine.

00:12:22.780 It's all good insights.

00:12:23.820 Yeah, I agree with you that this is just a mess all over the place because, first, you know, personally, I think this is just a, at this point, a unresolvable ethnic blood feud between two peoples who have just been brutal to each other for a very long time. 0.58

00:12:39.340 I think there's zero hope of the United States or anyone else, you know, negotiating them out of this scenario.

00:12:46.460 And so I would just like it to not be on my shores.

00:12:49.340 You know, when I say I don't want us involved, I mean, I really don't want us involved one way or the other.

00:12:55.340 I think there is a mistake.

00:12:57.480 You know, there's a lot of people who perhaps don't like, you know, the perceived influence of Israel on United States foreign policy.

00:13:05.660 And so they automatically side with Palestinians, even though, you know, many Palestinians would hate them and vice versa.

00:13:12.480 You know, a lot of people who are not paying attention to perhaps, you know, the way that the United States has, you know, involved itself unnecessarily in this situation, feel some knee jerk reaction to involve itself in kind of a neocon foreign policy aspect and immediately side with Israel.

00:13:30.080 So it's like, guys, this is this is just not productive like this.

00:13:33.400 This is not helping the United States at all.

00:13:35.420 We should not.

00:13:36.380 You know, this this is where courtesy Arvin is right in this.

00:13:39.060 And I know some people that'll make people very angry.

00:13:40.760 But, you know, you should make me angry or don't make me to see he's right.

00:13:45.640 But but but but you should not.

00:13:48.320 You we need to devise divest ourselves from this impulse to have moral outrage at every event that happens across the world.

00:13:55.120 Of course, we don't have that option because we specifically imported it here.

00:13:58.920 So we you know that that that should be the ideal.

00:14:01.540 That should be the way a normal, healthy nation would not be like, oh, wow, a random blood feud has flared up again in some country halfway across the world.

00:14:10.840 It immediately needs to, you know, result in violence and protests across my nation.

00:14:16.700 But that's where we are now.

00:14:18.280 And so it creates the scenario where, you know, like you said, there's the standard operating procedure.

00:14:23.700 It feels like now for the leftist protests.

00:14:25.860 OK, establish your autonomous zone.

00:14:28.020 Start doing these, you know, these struggle sessions, capture the sit ins and all that.

00:14:32.400 Right. Yeah.

00:14:33.000 Yeah. There's this.

00:14:34.340 And in a way, that's kind of the revolutionary reenactment.

00:14:37.320 Right. Like this is this is my this is my moment of the campus protest.

00:14:42.360 Like even if there wasn't an issue to protest, I would need there to be an issue to protest just so I can go through the formative ritual of engaging in a protest as a leftist on a campus.

00:14:51.620 You know, there's a lot of that happening.

00:14:54.160 Yeah.

00:14:54.920 And so I think the the main thing is is just the frustration from watching this result.

00:15:02.500 Let me bring this up really quick, because, you know, there have been a number of people who, like I said, you know, it's all the you know, the government needs to get involved.

00:15:10.820 They need to come in and and take action.

00:15:14.900 We've got Josh Hawley saying Eisenhower sent the hundred and first to Little Rock.

00:15:20.340 It's time for Biden to call out.

00:15:21.600 Oh, my God.

00:15:23.740 Yeah. I mean, that's a that's an interesting reference.

00:15:28.620 It would sink the Democrats.

00:15:30.720 I would say it will.

00:15:31.860 It would.

00:15:32.800 You know what I mean?

00:15:33.380 Like they're in an interesting position or because I think that, you know, the one good thing, though, is there are certain elites in the American government.

00:15:40.820 Government who realize that from a Democrat perspective, it's bad optics.

00:15:44.760 And so they want the Israelis to cool it down or settle for a negotiated peace.

00:15:48.960 And of course, Trump has said that he's he wants the conflict gone.

00:15:51.820 He thinks that Netanyahu went way too far.

00:15:55.160 And there's been a lot of, you know, there has been a lot of, you know, people used to think that Netanyahu and Trump, they were like best friends.

00:16:02.800 But unfortunately, like I believe their relationship has strained.

00:16:06.640 So at least there is solid agreement that this is a pretty negative thing on the world stage.

00:16:12.280 I mean, I will push back a little bit on you, Oren.

00:16:14.500 I would say that because of America's involvement, particularly in the in the sort of military industrial complex, the Middle East and in Israel in particular, I would say that it would be in the best interest of both Republicans and Democrats.

00:16:29.800 Democrats to settle things as quickly as especially Biden going into this election now. 0.95

00:16:36.800 But the problem is when you do have Republicans that have a very cavalier attitude towards human life and towards very complex geopolitical issues, especially in the Middle East.

00:16:47.260 The way that things are already in the Middle East is incredibly complex.

00:16:51.000 But I do see. And here's the thing, though.

00:16:54.180 There is a yearning and a will to sort of put the lid on this and to pivot back towards Ukraine versus Russia.

00:17:01.900 That is much more. Yeah. Yeah.

00:17:04.160 That's a much more salient thing for American voters.

00:17:06.400 The fact that it's sufficiently abstracted from American history and involvement, you know, of course, I mean, you know, and of course, you know, that the spending bill recently.

00:17:20.940 So I think a lot of people within the Biden administration, not Biden himself, because, well, well, let's not talk about the president of the United States, particular health and longevity situation.

00:17:33.300 But I think that a lot of people in the Democratic Party, they realize that this is not good.

00:17:39.460 And to send the National Guard to the protest, that would be that would be catastrophic, I think.

00:17:45.780 Yeah. Sorry, I cut you off. No, no, no.

00:17:48.600 I'm with you. I think the only reason I'm going to give Josh Hawley a pass is he also said that they should bring in the National Guard for the for the BLM riots.

00:17:57.740 So, OK, yeah. Then that's. Yeah. Yeah.

00:18:00.520 At least he's an equal opportunity. You know, this one isn't just for, you know, anti-Israel protests.

00:18:06.960 He's just like, when in doubt, National Guard it.

00:18:09.700 And it's like, I can respect that that level of consistency.

00:18:12.560 Well, it's not like other people who have a very unprincipled exception that, you know, they let things pass.

00:18:19.580 But when it comes to this issue. Right.

00:18:21.200 But but that being said, I mean, I think that.

00:18:24.460 The BLM riots clearly demonstrated a lot of political politically motivated violence and destruction, but I don't know.

00:18:35.480 I think. Have there been intimidations and have there been violent, perhaps?

00:18:42.020 Perhaps. And then maybe you can argue this.

00:18:45.120 But I mean, yeah, there's been a lot of a large number of protests.

00:18:48.160 But like you said, Oren, I mean.

00:18:51.760 As much as there has been involvement by the American state, I think when it comes to these ethnic conflicts, who really bears the brunt of overt protest and violence?

00:19:03.560 It's the American people, obviously. Right.

00:19:05.780 And here in Canada as well, there's been huge protests.

00:19:08.620 I mean, most of them have been peaceful, of course. And like I said, it's their right.

00:19:12.020 Like, listen, I was a big I am a big supporter.

00:19:14.480 I was a big supporter of the truckers.

00:19:17.200 And so therefore, I would be a hypocrite to say that as long as pro-Palestine protests on parliaments, you know, in downtown Ottawa, as long as they're being peaceful, then I think, you know, it's perfectly fine.

00:19:30.620 But I mean, it is an issue, though, because academics don't know what to do now.

00:19:35.120 And a lot of a huge swath of the organs of power, they're in a huge conundrum over this.

00:19:42.680 And but like you said, I mean, from from a conservative or politically rightward perspective, it just goes to show you that a lot of the political categories in the Western world have been so thoroughly mixed up and have been so thoroughly.

00:19:57.620 Um, slotted into a certain direction than what a lot of people truly feel.

00:20:04.900 Right. So it's a very complicated issue.

00:20:07.860 But guys, go on. I know you wanted to cover certain tweets here.

00:20:10.460 Well, I wanted to bring this up because I think Peachy Keenan put this pretty well.

00:20:17.060 You know, she's responding to a tweet that says American colleges and universities spent the last decade censoring conservatives, canceling events, punishing teachers, et cetera, because they wanted to ensure their students never felt unsafe.

00:20:28.740 They spent unaccountable millions institutionalizing left wing diversity programs. 0.56

00:20:33.620 And her response, which I think is a very good one, is because no one cared when they came for the whites, white kids are the default villains in academia. 0.89

00:20:42.260 No one except a few conservative voices even dared to stand up to them.

00:20:46.120 Now that Jewish kids are under attack, the institutions built to protect them are going there are doing their job. 1.00

00:20:52.440 Protecting them must be nice.

00:20:53.640 And this is the same thing that we saw at Google.

00:20:55.860 I just responded to this story yesterday on Twitter that Google is saying, oh, we can't have any more workplace politics.

00:21:02.560 Google is to remind people the company who just like last month erased white people from history with an AI bot.

00:21:09.740 Like literally just was like, we can't make white Vikings.

00:21:12.580 We can't even make white SS officers.

00:21:15.800 Like because that's how diverse our AI is.

00:21:20.960 They had to put buy POC SS officers.

00:21:23.960 Like that this company is like, oh, we have to get rid of workplace politics.

00:21:29.620 Why?

00:21:30.440 Because, you know, anti-Israel stuff is getting in a hand.

00:21:34.220 People aren't feeling safe.

00:21:35.160 We want to quiet this down.

00:21:36.780 And P.G. Keenan is pointing out the same double standard here.

00:21:39.000 Right.

00:21:39.580 I get it.

00:21:40.160 Like if people are being threatened, if there is violence involved.

00:21:44.660 Sure.

00:21:44.940 I understand 100 percent.

00:21:47.460 Yeah.

00:21:47.700 But all of a sudden I'm getting a call to put tanks in Harvard Yard.

00:21:51.840 And you know what?

00:21:52.560 But I'm pro tanks in Harvard Yard anyway.

00:21:55.200 So, you know, my deal is I'm not going to make you tell me explain your your sudden interest in putting tanks in Harvard Yard as long as you're willing to do it.

00:22:04.080 However, she makes a really good point that, you know, we have seen this kind of animus.

00:22:11.040 We've seen this level of violence.

00:22:12.920 We've seen this level of hateful speech and protest and attack towards, you know, people of European descent across college campuses in North America and the wider Western world for a decade.

00:22:24.200 And nobody cared.

00:22:26.200 Nobody cared.

00:22:27.300 It was all the kids are going woke.

00:22:29.520 We got a couple of rants.

00:22:30.680 Yeah.

00:22:31.080 Ben Shapiro owns some people with facts and logic.

00:22:34.080 But no one was talking about, oh, I need to where where is the air?

00:22:38.600 Where's the 101st Airborne?

00:22:39.940 Right.

00:22:40.580 None of that.

00:22:41.700 And all of a sudden, boom, like clockwork, this is popped up.

00:22:45.960 And yeah, you have to you have to think, OK, so I guess there was this understanding that eternally there was going to be some carve out for the, you know, the stories of colonization and all this stuff.

00:22:59.640 All those narratives that apply to broader Europe were not going to be applied to Israel.

00:23:06.720 And now they are.

00:23:07.940 And all of a sudden, boom, it's time to deploy the Marines.

00:23:11.520 It's time to shift the get rid of politics.

00:23:14.240 It all has to go because we've finally found a group worth defending.

00:23:18.080 It just seems seems pretty gross from all sides.

00:23:21.060 Oh, yeah, it is.

00:23:22.000 I mean, I think that, you know, OK, you can make the argument that the British involvement in that region of the Middle East back, you know, even before.

00:23:29.580 World War Two, you could argue that a lot of the lines weren't drawn properly.

00:23:35.100 And there was a lot of degree of.

00:23:38.580 Choose my word carefully here.

00:23:41.860 There was a lot of degree of.

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00:24:15.000 Being intimidated because of certain narratives of actually settling a lot of these issues.

00:24:21.820 Because, I mean, how long has the Israel-Palestine issue been going on?

00:24:24.780 70, 80, almost 80 years now?

00:24:26.840 Oh, I mean, yeah.

00:24:28.740 Whenever, when settlers started moving in would have been like the late 1800s.

00:24:32.680 You know, depending on when you want to start marketing.

00:24:34.900 More, right?

00:24:35.720 Yeah.

00:24:36.220 And so I think that.

00:24:37.900 But the problem is, though, when you use the narrative of like settler colonialism and all that, it feeds into domestic culture war politics.

00:24:46.300 Right.

00:24:47.200 And as much as I, you know, I mean, let's face it.

00:24:51.140 The people protesting on college campuses that are pro-Palestine, they hate us probably.

00:24:55.140 I mean, this is a fact, right?

00:24:56.600 Correct.

00:24:56.900 But that being said, like my argument is that I think you have to divorce that from what's actually going on in the Middle East.

00:25:02.880 But that doesn't give you any comfort when a lot of the policies that universities have been instituted, like you mentioned.

00:25:10.720 Now, listen, I'm no fan of a lot of the original like post-gamer gay people that were going to university campuses like Steven Crowder or Milo or like I have criticisms of Christine Off Summers. 0.88

00:25:24.500 Like I have criticisms of all these figures.

00:25:25.720 Right.

00:25:26.460 But at the same time, like they did face genuine death threats and violence and Berkeley in particular.

00:25:31.840 Like I believe they were like fire set when Milo went there, you know, like and so it was it was crazy.

00:25:40.900 Right.

00:25:41.320 You know, post Gamergate.

00:25:43.860 First of all, I don't think that going to these universities and giving a lecture.

00:25:47.680 Like I remember there was this one where I think it was Steven Crowder and Christine Off Summers and the crowd was booing them.

00:25:54.560 And it was like this big spectacle.

00:25:55.960 And so in that sense, I agree with Curtis, people like Curtis Yarvin to this in the sense that creating these big spectacles for the political right or conservatives probably wasn't the best policy.

00:26:05.960 But that being said, that older model of the university being a haven of debate and free speech.

00:26:12.940 I mean, that's just gone now.

00:26:14.540 That's over.

00:26:15.620 Right.

00:26:16.160 And so when you built.

00:26:18.600 Yeah, exactly.

00:26:19.660 Gio being an old head again, although he menachrome used a word I can't use on YouTube.

00:26:23.720 But but that being said, I think that because the universities have built up such an apparatus of unprincipled exceptions the whole way through and that really that like 1960s new left idea of free debate, like that was kind of a ruse to begin with.

00:26:41.640 But they're really suffering now when you have people of entirely different historicity and political understanding now confronting the real face of administrative power.

00:26:54.600 And in a sense, I think these universities, they've really dug their own graves when it comes down to it, like you said, Oren.

00:27:01.720 But like I said, like I even with these the Ukrainian Russia issue is a very complex one.

00:27:10.620 And I my fear is that a lot of very complex geopolitical issues when they are interpolated and taken up into the Western culture war, a lot of the actual genuine nuance gets lost.

00:27:23.080 And but because it is this giant spectacle, I mean, all protest politics, I mean, you know, you don't have to read Burnham or you don't have to read, you know, A.A.'s book right on on this issue to know that a lot of the populism, either in the left or the right, when it comes to the spectacle and the public ritual of protest is in a way a weird postmodern spectacle.

00:27:45.860 And in a way, really, besides the point when it comes to hard decisions that are made, both domestically and geopolitically.

00:27:53.640 So but but like I say, there is signs that they're going to probably put this away there.

00:27:58.800 I mean, whether or not the Israelis will listen to the Biden administration is a different issue.

00:28:03.800 But there is a lot of political will to just quiet this down.

00:28:07.700 It's incredibly embarrassing for the political left.

00:28:10.360 And they like I said, and Biden has an election to win against the evil orange Trumpolini.

00:28:18.400 So it's it's just it also, by the way, you really do have to give it to Donald Trump to break the paradigm.

00:28:25.980 Hopefully he's he keeps to it if he gets reelected.

00:28:28.620 But he really does break the paradigm of the Republican Party by saying that, you know what, I think this is bad, too.

00:28:34.020 I don't want these people to die.

00:28:35.380 You know, and I think I he wants a negotiated settlement, whether or not that's politically tenable in the Middle East is a different story.

00:28:43.420 But the fact that Donald Trump is willing to grade against the norm of Republicans that when it comes to the Ukrainian issue and the Israeli issue with Gaza have posted some very wild and very deranged things about like, let's just like let's destroy them all.

00:28:59.860 And the things I can't say on YouTube, like legitimate politicians have been posting this.

00:29:03.520 There was this Republican in Texas.

00:29:07.160 I forget her name, but she posted that, you know, if Ukraine falls, next, America is going to fall.

00:29:14.040 So you saw that, right?

00:29:15.860 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:17.820 And so but because a lot of this is really the blowback of 2000s and 90s and 80s neoconservatism,

00:29:25.560 where they do treat these very complex geopolitical issues as if they are basically defending America and the shining rock on the hill,

00:29:33.480 even though a lot of those policies we can look back.

00:29:36.240 I mean, both of us are millennials, Oren.

00:29:38.680 I mean, you're a bit older than me, but like, you know, millennial, core millennial, nevertheless.

00:29:41.900 Thanks, Gia.

00:29:42.400 I appreciate it.

00:29:43.080 Yeah, but like, we can look back on it.

00:29:45.980 Well, even as a Gen Xer, like you were the generation, your co-patriots, the young men that you grew up with, Oren,

00:29:53.420 you were the ones that went over to Iraq and Afghanistan.

00:29:56.660 And I think to live under the persistent aura of what happened in the 2000s.

00:30:04.220 I mean, it's something that millennials, of course, don't like to think about because it's very, you know, destructive.

00:30:09.120 And it has a lot of political implications that we'd rather put away.

00:30:13.680 But when you really think about it, I mean, the foreign policy of America for the last, I would say, 80, maybe 70, 60,

00:30:21.300 at least 60 years, at least 30 years, has not really served the interests of the American people,

00:30:26.640 which I know is a common point.

00:30:28.980 And maybe we should move on to more theory-driven topics because I'm just, you know, we're going into political analysis.

00:30:35.160 And then that's kind of like, but to give you a good tie-in, Oren, the politics of the spectacle has been something that's very persistent.

00:30:45.280 Even when it's divorced from hard power and the way things operate, you still have this model of protest of either left-wing or right-wing populism.

00:30:56.380 Of course, post-Charlotteville, right-wing populism in terms of public spectacle, you saw a little bit with Trump and Trump rallies.

00:31:03.880 But, I mean, let's face it, that's been effectively punished by the state.

00:31:10.420 But now that you're seeing that this is being punished by the state, or at least the workings of it are being punished by the state,

00:31:18.320 there's a whole lot of political confusion going on.

00:31:22.680 Honestly, I don't think it's going to be punished by the state.

00:31:25.000 I think that they're making a show at most.

00:31:29.920 They're slapping some people on their wrist.

00:31:31.820 I don't know if you remember when the squad got arrested for protesting and they had to, like, fake putting their hands behind them

00:31:38.820 because they didn't even handcuff them.

00:31:40.460 Or, like, Greta Thunberg getting dragged away. 0.58

00:31:42.960 And, like, every few months she gets dragged away by the police.

00:31:46.180 Like, I really, I think that they have to go through the motions because the group being attacked is considered a little more worthy of protection in the progressive hierarchy.

00:31:58.800 But, honestly, I don't think they can put this back in the box.

00:32:02.420 Of course, this is my whole debate with AA.

00:32:04.640 I think it will eventually quiet down.

00:32:06.620 I think that eventually Israel will kind of achieve its goal, and this will fall off the radar of 90% of people.

00:32:14.060 And so it doesn't really matter.

00:32:15.780 I mean, let's be honest.

00:32:16.820 Outside of college universities and super online people, if you ask the average person what's going on in Israel, Palestine right now, they'd have no clue.

00:32:26.060 Right.

00:32:26.840 Like, Ukraine is far more, like you said, salient for most Americans.

00:32:30.880 That's something everyone actually knows, at least to some degree, is happening, as where I think this barely registers for anybody who's not directly plugged in.

00:32:38.280 So I don't think you'll, I think you'll probably see the kind of the mainstream left beat back the woke vanguard slightly here.

00:32:47.380 But I don't think there'll be a definitive victory for them.

00:32:49.600 I think that's going to continue to see the rise of the world.

00:32:51.640 They're not going to crack down the way they did with those campus protests, with campus speakers, or with Charlottesville, or with Trump rallies even.

00:32:59.960 They're not going to, no, they're not going to jail any.

00:33:02.040 I mean, maybe they'll jail a few people that are actually staging intimidations of certain academics.

00:33:08.460 But, no, they're not going to crack down the way they have with a lot of, well, even recently, I mean, what was it, was it Switzerland, or was it Czechoslovak, which country they cracked down in a NAC on?

00:33:23.180 Oh, I think it was in Brussels, wasn't it?

00:33:25.800 Or no, where was it?

00:33:26.540 It was Brussels.

00:33:27.180 Yeah.

00:33:27.340 Yeah, okay.

00:33:28.240 So, no, that's not, I mean, they'll let the protests more or less try to peter itself out as the news cycle continues.

00:33:37.760 Because even still, like, people, it's very funny when it comes to the news cycle, when it comes to the sort of decentralized media apparatus you find in places like X, you know, Twitter, where people, when the Iran thing happened, people are immediately giving their takes, like, oh, something's happening, and it's going to really lead to something.

00:34:00.980 And people are hyperventilating on Twitter spaces, and some Twitter spaces have, like, 10,000 listeners, and they're, like, breaking news.

00:34:09.280 And it's really, but then, of course, what happens is this, like, what usually happens in the Middle East, where there's a lot of chest thumping, there's a lot of exchanges back and forth.

00:34:18.660 I believe Iran had to admit that one of the bases may have not been attacked, or who knows what happened, right? 0.61

00:34:25.680 Because it's all up in the air.

00:34:27.100 But then you have the cycle that gets grafted onto it, where people are almost yearning for it.

00:34:33.040 They're yearning for something to happen, even though it might, you know, drag us into a new war.

00:34:38.240 So, I think it really is kind of like a thirst for annihilation in some ways.

00:34:43.760 It's a thirst for the ecstasies of something happening, which is very, I think, politically dangerous.

00:34:49.980 And it's dangerous in terms of political discourse as well, because people are craving for a happening, and there's either frustration, or when happenings do occur, people...

00:35:03.240 I think it's sort of like what, it's sort of like in Revelation, I may be pissing off some evangelicals here, but it's sort of like when Revelation, where it is said that Christ will return like a thief in the night.

00:35:14.980 Like, the happening will occur like a thief in the night.

00:35:17.340 When a happening occurs, you're not going to hear it on a Twitter space.

00:35:21.520 It's going to be something that will catch people politically off guard.

00:35:26.460 I mean, even the Ukraine conflict, there were certain people that did predict that it was going to happen.

00:35:31.520 But, yeah, so I think happenings will occur like a thief in the night, more or less, Oren.

00:35:36.600 So, yeah.

00:35:37.500 All right.

00:35:37.880 Well, let's go ahead and try to transition to the theoretical topic of the stream today, which is postmodernism.

00:35:44.980 So, the reason I want to address this, Gio, is I feel like there's so much jargon thrown around this topic.

00:35:52.680 People rarely understand, you know, the postmodernists are after our kids and stuff, you know, like it's that.

00:35:58.820 But there's not, you know, and there's a good reason to be worried about postmodern theory and many things that postmodernists have said.

00:36:07.980 But I think it's often so far removed from the actual context of the movement and the moment we're in.

00:36:13.900 And nobody really thinks about the implications of the moment we're in.

00:36:18.220 If we're not going to embrace postmodernism, which I don't think we should, then we need to think about what else we would be embracing, where else we would be going.

00:36:25.880 So, I wanted to begin at the beginning just to lay out some basics for people.

00:36:30.620 What is modernity?

00:36:32.120 What is postmodernity?

00:36:35.360 When did this transition happen, if it happened at all?

00:36:38.240 That's a tough one.

00:36:44.420 It's tough because I think that when people think of these issues in terms of like reifying time periods, a great writer that I think we should bring up is Bruno Latour, who wrote this book called We Were Never Moderns.

00:36:59.140 Because, okay, so to set this up, the claim of modernity being that time in terms of development is more or less stable, more or less linear, and that the whole world can be sunk into a modernist understanding of things.

00:37:16.900 That we can pick apart nature, that man in relation to nature is increasingly abstract and increasingly a narrative of what a lot of postmodernists would call logocentrism.

00:37:27.160 Where the primacy of human intelligence and of human language triumphs over nature.

00:37:33.800 But what Bruno Latour is saying, and then of course postmodernity, is the criticism of the frustration of the modernist project.

00:37:41.600 Now, listen, a lot of the original poststructuralists and postmodernists, they were of the new left, of course.

00:37:47.600 There was a huge intersection there.

00:37:49.160 And they talked about how the issues of various platforms of social justice, there are certain narratives that, for example, Western education and Western thought has ignored.

00:38:02.560 And it's like trying to pick apart the various contradictions and issues that have not been highlighted and peoples that are sort of, quote unquote, left out of the equation.

00:38:12.720 And so postmodernism is really, you know, if we go to say the Leotardian definition, would be the criticism or rather the awareness of the very slippery and fibrous notions of grand metanarratives in society.

00:38:29.460 And rather these metanarratives, either very, you know, oppressive structures, or there's something that just simply does not graft onto the, quote unquote, real of what we experience.

00:38:41.980 And that when you look down at the basis of things, most of it is language, most of it is discourse, and most of it, it comes from the ideational space.

00:38:51.140 Rather than anything we can point to as a, for example, a dialectical movement in history.

00:38:57.580 So that's something that we can't really observe.

00:39:00.840 And so even postmodernism was very critical of Orthodox Marxism, for example, because Marxism has a lot of predicates of what is social justice, of what is the movement of history, because they get this from Hegel, right?

00:39:13.140 Of what we can see as a movement of capitalism.

00:39:16.200 And so if you look, for example, to Frederick Jameson, in his book, Postmodernism, The Logic of Late Modernity, sorry, The Logic of Late Capitalism, where you can also call it late modernity, he points to the fact that you have this increasing decentralization of all things.

00:39:33.860 You have a decentralization of information, and you also have, in the absence of grand metanarratives, you have a total collapse or a sort of a de-territorialization of culture.

00:39:46.960 So, for example, there's no longer the high art, low art distinction.

00:39:50.540 There's a sort of planetization of cultural products.

00:39:55.360 Capitalism, of course, is the handmaiden of this, or late capitalism, in spreading various culture industry products throughout the world.

00:40:02.220 And you don't have a sort of, a very cohesive civilizational narrative.

00:40:08.020 But let's go back to Bruno Latour now, okay?

00:40:11.120 So Bruno Latour in We Were Never Modern, he questions the assumption that we were modernist to begin with.

00:40:16.480 Because what we see is that man is still in dialogue with the natural world.

00:40:21.760 The project of the total revealing of nature has not been fulfilled.

00:40:25.680 But also when it comes to, quote-unquote, modernity, when it comes to various places throughout the world, we can see that we're living in a sort of mishmash of people that have a different awareness of what modernity is.

00:40:41.620 People live lives around the world that are thoroughly, that you wouldn't consider, quote-unquote, modern, the way that we would consider it in the West.

00:40:49.220 And so you have to really address this hard distinction between, okay, we live in a modern period, now we have post-modernity, we're criticizing it, and we're criticizing those claims towards it.

00:41:01.820 So in a sense, what Latour is trying to say, and again, I'm butchering this for time's sake.

00:41:06.860 What Latour is saying is that to say that there's a post-modernity is the sweeping assumption that we were modern, quote-unquote, to begin with, that history is a progressive linear entity that we can visibly observe, that man's conquest of nature and the deconstruction of the natural world is more or less a surety, and that all people have been lifted up into this construct we call modernism.

00:41:32.660 Whereas we don't observe any of those things. And post-modernism, as a reaction to that, Latour says, is equally something that is kind of absurd at its heart.

00:41:42.080 And so in a sense, we can see that post-modernism, in a way, is really a reification and an acceleration of a lot of the predicates of the promises of modernity.

00:41:54.400 That modernity has tried to perfect itself to the point of being an absence of itself, of going beyond itself.

00:42:01.200 But personally, I think a lot of thinkers such as Zygmunt Bauman, John David Ebert, for instance, comes to mind, they call it liquid modernity or hyper-modernity.

00:42:13.160 I think that is a more productive term for the place that we're living in currently when it comes to politics and culture in the internet age.

00:42:25.120 Hyper-modernity is, to me, more of an apt descriptor than, quote-unquote, post-modernity.

00:42:30.560 Because even post-modernity itself, for example, the claim towards relativism.

00:42:36.280 Relativism, maybe for a time in terms of academic discourse, but I don't see relativism anywhere.

00:42:43.560 I see an extension of a sort of modernist moralism or a morality complex that modern politics has been subsumed under.

00:42:53.740 So a lot of people, a lot of critics in the political right or normie conservatives that talk about post-modern relativism, I think, I don't see relativism anywhere.

00:43:03.300 Like, where is this relativism?

00:43:05.120 Right?

00:43:05.300 Like, I mean, people still believe things.

00:43:08.200 We don't live in a moral society.

00:43:11.500 We live in an incredibly moralistic society.

00:43:14.140 It's just that the morality is quite different from a lot of pre-modern traditional systems of morality and theology and so forth.

00:43:23.160 So we don't, we live in a very different form of ontological politics or, you know, moralistic politics than, say, a lot of people that criticize post-modernity, such as, who is the academic at Hillsdale?

00:43:39.280 He wrote a whole book on post-modernity.

00:43:41.120 What's his name?

00:43:42.240 I'm forgetting.

00:43:42.960 I'm blanking right now.

00:43:44.360 But he talks about, like, the relativism aspect.

00:43:46.640 I think that's probably one area in which critics of post-modernity have gotten wrong, is that the relativism claim has sort of been overemphasized.

00:43:59.200 Yeah, I think that's interesting.

00:44:01.280 You know, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about this was an article that Alexander Dugan put out, and he mentioned the fact that in many ways post-modernism had become as dogmatic as modernism,

00:44:14.220 had become as much of a, you know, a narrative and a very fixed thing, bringing forward, like you said, a lot of non-relativistic points.

00:44:22.460 You know, having a very specific idea of what the world should look like and how to prescribe it.

00:44:27.780 One of the things that happened recently, I don't know if you saw this, Chris Rufo has been tweeting out, like, everything that the new NPR CEO has said.

00:44:35.960 He just got, like, got it set on some kind of repeat every hour. 0.63

00:44:38.840 It just pumps out ridiculous. 0.92

00:44:40.560 And so this new female CEO has said many things that are, you know, pretty bog-standard leftist things. 0.66

00:44:47.120 And one of the things that she talked about was, you know, she used to be in charge of Wikipedia or one of the people in charge of Wikipedia.

00:44:54.980 And she said, one of the things we recognize is at first we went with kind of this open and free, you know, model.

00:45:01.680 But the purpose of the open and free model was to create equality.

00:45:06.280 And what we learned was that openness and freedom does not create equality.

00:45:10.680 It creates the opposite, which, you know, is a revelation that I think hurts conservatives as much as it does the leftists.

00:45:17.980 But every time there's a lack of moderation, spaces online become right-wing automatically.

00:45:22.380 Yeah, it's a weird thing that keeps happening that way.

00:45:24.620 It's like there's some kind of natural order that emerges.

00:45:29.580 But, you know, she specifically said, look, we got rid of the openness and the freedom because the primary goal was equality.

00:45:36.900 And all of these mechanisms of openness and freedom, they were these kind of liberal modern solutions to bring about this thing.

00:45:46.180 And so it feels like a lot of conservatives looked at the tools of kind of liberalism and modernity and thought that those were the ends, as where the postmoderns thought that the end was the equality or, you know, other promises made by liberalism.

00:46:02.620 And the disconnect is between the application of these tools and the ends and why the application of tools didn't bring about the ends and why it's not okay or is okay to abandon the tools if they don't bring about the ends.

00:46:17.340 And I pointed this out and then, like, wiggle distance came in.

00:46:20.180 It's like, oh, that's ridiculous. 0.91

00:46:21.400 Liberalism doesn't believe that. 0.87

00:46:22.820 It's like, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what the postmoderns have said.

00:46:26.140 But, okay, yeah.

00:46:27.680 Internet disagreements aside, it feels like there's this big disconnect.

00:46:32.320 Where conservatives don't realize that the large amount of what the postmoderns were doing and what they're trying to enforce, because like you said, it's not relative.

00:46:42.240 Like, they want a goal.

00:46:44.060 They have an end point in mind for what society should look like and what values should be enforced.

00:46:51.120 But they don't understand.

00:46:52.380 They thought that the tools to reach those ends were the actual values, as were the postmoderns, had the goals in mind.

00:46:58.380 And they're more than willing to discard the old tools if they don't reach the ends they were supposed to.

00:47:04.460 Well, right.

00:47:05.160 I mean, even Frederick Jameson in Postmodernism, Logic of Late Capitalism, he even said this, I believe, in a few introductory chapters where he said, like, even reactionaries can become postmodernists.

00:47:16.900 There's such a thing as a postmodern reactionary, and that really the open template of critique and deconstruction.

00:47:23.480 And deconstruction is a very complicated term because I think a lot of people on the political left, like we'll call distance, like James Lindsay, they take that to mean, like, just the destruction of values.

00:47:32.240 Whereas if you actually look at, if you've spent, you know, countless hours, such as I have, unfortunately, looking at a lot of poststructuralist texts from Derrida all the way up to Baudrillard.

00:47:44.240 Baudrillard does have quite a bit of reactionary talking points, by the way, in terms of his pure postmodernism.

00:47:50.120 I would say that deconstruction is responding to a philosophic tradition and doesn't necessarily mean the destruction of values per se, but rather just realizing the sort of hierarchy of texts, why certain assumptions with analyzing texts are placed upon people in terms of the reader, in terms of the relation between the other and the self.

00:48:12.600 A lot of the deconstructive method is simply that.

00:48:15.140 It's just a method of approaching the text.

00:48:17.580 And then a lot of certainly the activist class around the 1980s to the present day have sort of like ascribed a lot of weirdo political intention to the phrase deconstruction.

00:48:29.680 Now, you mentioned Dugan.

00:48:31.080 Now, let me just state, let me just clarify right off the bat that I have read a lot of Dugan.

00:48:36.820 I'm not myself a Duganist.

00:48:38.380 I have a lot of severe criticisms of Alexander Dugan.

00:48:41.560 I think that you have to recognize.

00:48:43.440 And there was a time when a lot of Western right wingers were reading him.

00:48:47.160 A lot of publications were translating his work.

00:48:50.040 But that time has passed because I think you have to recognize that.

00:48:54.800 And Michael Miller, and forgive me for saying this, but you have to recognize that Dugan has his own agenda in terms of the civilization that he has formulated in terms of Eurasianism.

00:49:07.180 Oh, absolutely.

00:49:07.600 And I think you have to be cautious of that.

00:49:10.540 Like you have to be cautious with every reader.

00:49:12.760 And I think that, you know, as a Westerner who is on the political right, who is a conservative, you have to really take what he's saying with a grain of salt.

00:49:19.880 Because, for example, when it comes to postmodernism, he is correct in terms of tracing it back to a lot of Western Enlightenment principles.

00:49:29.180 But what he's doing with that criticism is something that I wouldn't say is within the interests of Western people or even Western right wingers.

00:49:38.220 And so I think a lot of the media spectacle around Dugan being like this, you know, Rasputin-like figure or like Western right wingers or Russia shills or that Dugan.

00:49:49.340 I mean, there has been Western right wingers that have been in dialogue with Dugan.

00:49:52.240 But, for example, he mentions the nouveau droit in that article, the European new right, the French new right.

00:49:58.360 A lot of those people hate Dugan. 0.99

00:49:59.960 They think he's a clown. 0.98

00:50:01.420 A lot of them have sided with Ukraine, for instance. 0.96

00:50:03.840 A lot of Western right wingers have sided with Ukraine, by the way.

00:50:06.380 So, I mean, I'll stay.

00:50:09.260 I'm not going to go further in my position in that conflict.

00:50:11.620 But I think that you have to take what Dugan is saying with a grain of salt.

00:50:15.140 Because certainly his criticism of postmodernism is quite interesting in that he wants to find a synthesis between tradition and the postmodern condition.

00:50:25.220 But I think that synthesis relies on a lot of assumptions that run contrary to what a lot of Western people think and feel and believe.

00:50:34.260 And what a lot of people in the political right in the West also think and feel and believe.

00:50:39.600 His criticism is certainly interesting.

00:50:41.280 For example, he does mention Latour.

00:50:43.060 He mentions Heidegger.

00:50:44.520 And he's trying to create the synthesis between the traditionalist school, for example, René Gugnan and Martin Heidegger.

00:50:50.740 I wouldn't consider Martin Heidegger a postmodernist, by the way.

00:50:53.160 He's more of an existential ontologist.

00:50:55.000 But I think that a lot of assumptions he makes is sort of kind of complicated and won't really fit.

00:51:02.860 And a lot of the blame that he asserts on the West is also something not advantageous to a conservative project in North America, for instance.

00:51:13.060 For example, he has his own version of relativism. 0.61

00:51:15.220 He really harps upon this, like, third worldism and anti-racism, which is very funny how people call him, like, an evil fascist.

00:51:23.140 And he does have certain fascistic tendencies.

00:51:25.640 But in terms of, like, his third worldism, he really has sort of taken up this whole thing about Western racism and Western neocolonialism.

00:51:35.340 Oh, yeah.

00:51:35.780 It's everywhere in his work.

00:51:37.020 But I will say the reason I bring this up is because you have to really examine with a grain of salt what he says, because there's a lot of times where he says very contradictory statements.

00:51:46.500 For example, he's, you know, saying that years ago, he'll say, like, Ukrainians, we're all Belarusians, we're all brothers.

00:51:54.000 Then when the war happens, he says very kind of off the rail things about Ukrainians.

00:51:58.860 He'll say, like, there's statements he's made about criticizing multiculturalism, but then he said, well, you know, Russia has the superior multiculturalism, and we have to back our brothers in Africa and so forth.

00:52:10.160 And so, yeah, I think Dugan, I think his story is more complex when it comes to being in dialogue with the Western political right.

00:52:19.840 So I myself do not consider myself a Duganist.

00:52:22.140 But his criticism of postmodernism, he's trying to find a way to safeguard against the excesses of what he perceives as Western postmodernism.

00:52:32.160 But to do that, he's sort of like creating this weirdo Eurasianism, which is like kind of defeating the point in some ways in that article.

00:52:41.500 But nevertheless, it's very interesting because he is very well learned.

00:52:44.280 He's very well learned when it comes to Heidegger and poststructuralism.

00:52:48.340 But I think that like all critics of postmodernism, whether it be him, whether it be a lot of critics of postmodernism who are Marxist, they're going to have to contend with postmodernism as a mode of critique that is there, whether you like it or not, whether you can deal with it or not.

00:53:05.660 Because in some ways, and this is, it could be either a black pill or a clear pill.

00:53:10.440 Again, I'm not, I have severe criticism of Curtis Yarvin, but I do think the clear pill thing is an interesting concept.

00:53:16.120 So it could either be a black pill or a clear pill, which is that postmodernism as a mode of critique is not a sort of unified movement or a unified political enemy, but it's just rather the condition by which we find ourselves in an advanced technological and digital society.

00:53:33.640 And we have to realize that we're coming in, and this is what Dugan says, and you can criticize him as well.

00:53:39.680 And this is what other people, even Bruno Latour says, is that you're coming into dialogue with people that have radically different histories and radically different understandings because we live in a globalized world.

00:53:50.960 And so in a sense, postmodernism is just a natural progression of things from modernity, or rather hypermodernity is more of a natural progression of things.

00:53:59.820 And that we live in a technological society, we live in a digital society, and we live in an awareness of different peoples throughout the world.

00:54:08.260 And therefore, for example, Mbembe, who wrote Necropolitics, talks about this.

00:54:12.560 Now, I'm critical of that book as well, because it is a book of the current new left.

00:54:16.640 It is very, like, harps upon anti-colonialism and so forth.

00:54:20.400 But it's a very interesting book.

00:54:21.600 I broke that down on my YouTube channel, by the way, my podcast, General Reviews.

00:54:27.560 But Mbembe says this as well, that we have an awareness of the greater global South.

00:54:33.220 Therefore, we're going to have to question a lot of our prior ideological predicates.

00:54:38.620 So to wrap it all up, yes, I think Dugan's an interesting reader of postmodernism.

00:54:45.300 And Mbembe is an interesting critic of postmodernism as well.

00:54:49.800 But I think that all of these authors, you have to come up with a discernment and you have to take them with a grain of salt.

00:54:56.960 Because like I said, a lot of these authors, whether it be new left thinkers or current new left thinkers like Akila Mbembe,

00:55:05.340 or even people that are Eurasianists like Dugan, or people that are even on the political right, who are critics of postmodernism.

00:55:12.840 You have to all take these people with a grain of salt because it's trying to examine the conditions that we live in presently.

00:55:19.840 When it comes to the ought, though, that's different.

00:55:23.180 And I will criticize people like Will Call Distance, as I always do, in the sense that, well, you know, liberalism ought to be this way.

00:55:31.300 And we have to go back to that awareness of what liberalism is.

00:55:34.620 But if liberalism is creating the conditions of a liquid or hyper or postmodern society, then that calls into question a lot of those ideological predicates that Western liberalism coming from the Enlightenment has created.

00:55:50.180 And it's very easy to say that, well, you know, the Frankfurt School, I mean, the Frankfurt School does have a lot of impact on the new left.

00:55:57.060 I'm not denying that.

00:55:58.120 But when it comes to the sort of linear narrative of like, OK, there was modernism and that was beautiful because we were like classical liberals and that was great.

00:56:07.380 Then there was this evil postmodernism that came and destroyed everything.

00:56:11.020 And it's terrible.

00:56:12.040 Like, it's a lot more nuanced than that.

00:56:14.700 And equally, Dugan's narrative of like, you know, we were heck and wholesome Eurasianists and we did multiculturalism the right way.

00:56:22.140 But then the evil Westerners came and it's like, oh, my God, right? 1.00

00:56:26.500 They're inflicting postmodernism on our glorious Eurasian empire. 0.93

00:56:30.660 That's also a country.

00:56:31.800 Now, again, I for the sake of clarity, I'm robbing both Dugan and James Lindsay and Akilah Mbembe of nuance.

00:56:41.580 But I do think that it behooves us to criticize all of these thinkers.

00:56:45.840 Right.

00:56:46.300 And it doesn't regardless of what political political side you're on.

00:56:49.940 So, yeah, yeah.

00:56:50.340 I mean, I know it's a mouthful, but yeah.

00:56:52.480 Just echo what you're saying there.

00:56:54.040 You know, I truly wish that like Dugan was not in any way associated with Putin just because I find his I find his thought something that gets me thinking.

00:57:05.540 And I'm with you.

00:57:06.640 We like it's very in fact, it's almost sometimes comical how much of a sore thumb like his own project is in his thought.

00:57:14.780 Like it just sticks out.

00:57:15.780 It's very awkward.

00:57:16.960 Doesn't jive with other things he said and done.

00:57:18.800 It's almost like he just stopped in the middle of writing a scholarly paper, dropped the agenda in and then continued on with what he was doing and became a political polemicist for Russia.

00:57:29.040 Yeah.

00:57:29.260 Yeah.

00:57:29.780 Like and so it's a very unfortunate because, like I said, I find I do find there are certain thinkers that just I run into what they're saying and I'm like, oh, man, this opens something up for me.

00:57:38.880 This helps me to understand or grasp something or put something together.

00:57:41.260 And he he is at times one of those people. 0.99

00:57:44.340 But I'm with you that his his project is garbage. 1.00

00:57:47.340 He hates the West. 0.99

00:57:48.300 Like it's he's he's hoping for total angle, angle of destruction.

00:57:51.300 Like it's very clear.

00:57:52.480 Like, yeah, he's not he's not a fan.

00:57:55.180 And so I'm not here to, you know, to to to hold his project up or anything.

00:58:00.540 But I do think it's just interesting.

00:58:03.300 Just in case anyone's listening.

00:58:04.560 We're not do goodness.

00:58:05.860 We're not like.

00:58:06.600 No, to be very clear.

00:58:08.960 I understand that ultimately he hates the West.

00:58:12.240 No, I have my criticisms of American policy towards Ukraine, obviously.

00:58:15.880 However, I will say I pray for a negotiated settlement.

00:58:19.640 I pray for the needless destruction of people in Eastern Europe to end. 1.00

00:58:24.080 That's one.

00:58:24.880 I just want to make that clear.

00:58:26.380 Absolutely.

00:58:26.940 But when and even Akilah Mbembe, I spent multiple videos reading line for line necropolitics because necropolitics truly is a monumental work of scholarship.

00:58:37.400 But there are even instances where it's like, OK, like the whole like post-colonial leftist narrative.

00:58:43.820 It's like, oh, God.

00:58:44.560 But but, you know, you expect it.

00:58:45.940 Right.

00:58:46.000 You expect it.

00:58:46.960 It's yeah.

00:58:47.760 He comes from, you know, he comes from that understanding.

00:58:51.200 He's a post-colonial scholar.

00:58:52.720 And, you know, you have to respect where people come from.

00:58:55.380 Right.

00:58:55.680 And equally, you know, his narrative is not, you know, in the interest of certainly Western right wingers.

00:59:02.860 Right.

00:59:02.980 But it's a very interesting text, nevertheless.

00:59:04.840 But even when you said Orin, like when it comes down to it, I think that there is criticisms to be made of the of the Anglo and European and Germanic enlightenment.

00:59:13.480 But when it comes down to it, though, a lot of those concepts in a way were inevitability when you go further into the Western tradition.

00:59:24.500 And so, you know, I did my little bit back in the day in the 2000s of like being anti-enlightenment.

00:59:28.840 But I think that a lot of the Enlightenment, Western Enlightenment is a very rich source of what is like the sort of, you know, European consciousness.

00:59:37.780 And to say that all of it was evil because of what's been produced now, or rather the perversions of Enlightenment thinking.

00:59:44.260 And that's unfortunate with Dugan is that he takes up the perversions of Enlightenment thinking and he constitutes that as the whole thing.

00:59:50.220 And of course, he's very anti-Western.

00:59:51.800 And so, you know, and even when it comes right down to it, for example, like even, you know, Marxism does this as well.

00:59:57.880 They'll take the Enlightenment.

00:59:58.960 They'll, you know, predicate certain things about Hegel over others.

01:00:02.320 We all do this, right?

01:00:03.680 But I think that, for example, one last point of criticism of Dugan is that he mentioned Spangler in that article.

01:00:11.580 And he mentions that Spangler is a critic of the West.

01:00:13.840 I personally do not believe that Oswald Spangler was a quote-unquote critic of the Western Enlightenment.

01:00:20.780 I think that Spangler was recognizing the awareness of a cyclical nature to all political constructs and to all civilizations and cultures.

01:00:30.060 And so it's rather the recognition of a cyclical nature of winter, you know, eventually winter will come.

01:00:36.700 And so I don't think that Dugan necessarily is a, like, an anti-Western critic in that, like, I mean, Dugan says very interesting things.

01:00:45.360 Sorry, Spangler, Spangler, Spangler.

01:00:48.280 Dugan is definitely a critic of the West.

01:00:49.880 Yes, but Oswald Spangler, I don't think that you could claim that he's, like, an anti-Western thinker.

01:00:56.260 To me, that just doesn't make any sense.

01:00:58.300 He's rather recognizing that there is always, there's always going to be a decline in things, that it's natural.

01:01:06.860 But the sort of Faustian spirit creates certain things and has a certain awareness of itself.

01:01:12.820 And then, of course, Spangler, you know, you could, there's criticism of Spangler as well.

01:01:17.200 But I wouldn't label him as an anti-Western thinker.

01:01:20.220 I think I would say that, I would say that Dugan or that Spangler would think it almost impossible to be an anti-Western critic from inside the West.

01:01:28.560 That even your critique of Western man would be colored by your existence inside that society.

01:01:38.260 But before we go, or rather, before we transition over to the questions of the people, I know we packed this with a lot of breaking news.

01:01:46.460 So we didn't spend a lot of time on the main topic.

01:01:48.300 But I at least, and I may be asking you to the impossible question.

01:01:51.660 We'll have to do another one.

01:01:53.120 Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, we'll just roll it over.

01:01:55.040 But I may be asking the impossible question in just a few minutes.

01:01:59.220 But given what we've said here, that, you know, there are critiques that post-modernity has brought,

01:02:08.260 that it is not purely something that is deconstructed,

01:02:12.160 but it is also some, it's not something that's completely relativistic,

01:02:18.140 but brings its own expectations and its own demands.

01:02:22.180 We're in the moment we're in now, right?

01:02:24.540 And I think for so many people, you know, you've mentioned some of the classical liberals

01:02:29.500 who just want to go back to the 90s or the conservatives that just want to go back to the 50s.

01:02:34.100 And they see this as the alternative to post-modernism.

01:02:37.560 And Dugan, as you say, you know, brings in this kind of synthesis.

01:02:42.820 You know, he tries to bring in his Eurasianism to this.

01:02:45.340 But for those of the Western tradition who recognize that however you feel about the

01:02:51.320 Enlightenment or modernity or whatever, we have gone through it.

01:02:54.640 It is, it has occurred.

01:02:55.940 It is, so it's no longer, you can critique it.

01:02:58.140 You can, you can revile it.

01:02:59.480 You can embrace it.

01:03:01.100 You can do whatever you want with it, but it has happened, right?

01:03:03.280 And we are looking forward, but we do not want to embrace the post-modern structure.

01:03:09.660 We don't want to embrace the demands that they place on society.

01:03:14.940 What would an alternative look like that is Western in nature?

01:03:19.980 And again, I know that's a huge question, but even if there's just like some outline

01:03:24.320 or some general guidance, what would it look like to look forward and find something that

01:03:29.840 is not post-modernism, but it's also not just a retreat back to the nineties or the

01:03:34.380 fifties?

01:03:35.520 Mm-hmm.

01:03:36.080 Mm-hmm.

01:03:36.600 Well, the problem with retreat is that then it relies on a very kitchen-fied image of the

01:03:40.480 past, particularly, you know, boomers in the fifties and thinking that everything's 0.88

01:03:45.060 like an Orin Rockwell painting.

01:03:46.260 Um, but in terms of alternative, I think that the alternative could be a form of, I don't

01:03:56.340 want to say post-liberalism because that term has been abused by certain thinkers that, uh,

01:04:02.300 have this like weirdo communitarian stuff going on.

01:04:05.980 Uh, but I do think that in some ways you could go back to the original spirit of what those

01:04:14.920 Enlightenment thinkers were, were honing in on that is unique to, uh, you know, a lot of

01:04:21.240 Western consciousness, but I think that you're going to have to tussle with a lot of the

01:04:26.440 assumptions or rather the critique of a lot of assumptions that the post-modernists have

01:04:32.020 brought to the table, uh, which in a way is what Dugan was trying to do, but he, you know,

01:04:36.260 he has a lot of ideological blind spots.

01:04:39.080 I think that, uh, there's going to have to be an establishment of a new political order

01:04:44.140 and a new cultural order that can find a way to not necessarily go back to a different

01:04:51.360 time, not necessarily negate in total, uh, a lot of post-modern critiques of the modern

01:04:58.780 world, but rather a form of like, almost like a futurism in a way that is, I mean, I don't

01:05:05.780 have the answers.

01:05:06.400 I've thought about this for a long time, but I think in a way you'd have to find a sort

01:05:11.080 of political awareness of something that is future orientated, that has a project, uh,

01:05:18.060 that is worth building towards whatever that project may be.

01:05:21.900 But I think that you're going to have to do it without trying to, uh, either negate wholly

01:05:28.180 post-modernism or, you know, do some kind of like weirdo anti-enlightenment romanticism.

01:05:35.100 Um, I mean, there's going to have to be a form of romanticism, obviously, but in a way

01:05:39.320 that doesn't totally take us off the rails into a form of rationalism, uh, whether this

01:05:46.480 ameliatory future orientated politics and cultural project can be at hand, uh, I don't know.

01:05:54.760 I don't know.

01:05:55.920 Uh, because in a way, a lot of these things are inevitable.

01:05:58.540 So I think Spangler is correct in that sense that a lot of the decline we're seeing is

01:06:03.340 in some, yeah, demystrophuturism, uh, even when it comes to religion, I mean, I know there's

01:06:07.640 a, been a lot of debates on the E right, the online right between paganism and Christianity.

01:06:13.240 And I don't really like weighing into these things either.

01:06:16.240 Uh, but yeah, I mean, if you could find a way to have a proper hierarchical political

01:06:22.780 order that recognizes its limitations, but doesn't necessarily abandon those very things

01:06:29.180 that the Western mind has developed, um, that I think would be a heroic task, but I think

01:06:36.740 this is going to take probably generations, right?

01:06:40.740 Uh, because a lot of the stuff that we're dealing with is the consciousness of the previous

01:06:45.960 century.

01:06:46.400 And this is, you have to realize that postmodernism, and I know like, this is a liberal talking

01:06:52.560 point.

01:06:52.840 I know even people like Hannah Arendt talks about this, uh, you know, but to give credit

01:06:58.000 where it's due, cause she is, she, she was a great scholar, right?

01:07:01.060 I mean, she, again, there's a lot of criticisms of Hannah Arendt that could be had, but I think

01:07:06.300 that, um, a lot of postmodern thought came after the 20th century because the project of

01:07:15.240 modernism led to a lot of the atrocities of the 20th century.

01:07:20.020 And I think that as time goes on, you're going to have to sort of find a way to heroically

01:07:27.360 cleave ourselves out of that huge, like literal hero, you know, bomb of, of modernity in the

01:07:37.120 20th century.

01:07:37.920 And I know that she talks about this in origins of totalitarianism.

01:07:40.940 Uh, and I know that's a lot of, that's like a liberal assumption about things, but no,

01:07:45.280 I, I think that a lot of either restorative or futurist politics can only happen as time

01:07:54.760 goes on because we're still dealing with a lot of the ideological problems of the 20th

01:08:00.560 century.

01:08:00.900 We're still dealing with the, the, the sort of, uh, the mythos of a lot of those ideologies,

01:08:07.020 even the conservatives have this when they talk about communism, for instance, right?

01:08:11.460 So, yeah, I think that as time goes on, these things will become more clear because there's

01:08:17.400 going to have to be a shift in the political order or else we're just going to languish forever

01:08:22.960 in, in critique or in half-hearted, uh, social decay, uh, and, and cultural decay as well.

01:08:31.580 That's a huge thing.

01:08:32.640 That's a huge problem.

01:08:33.880 And this is a huge problem even with conservatives is that a lot of people, both in the left and

01:08:38.620 right, they go towards the sort of kitchified image of a, uh, cultural aesthetics and a political 0.88

01:08:45.060 aesthetics.

01:08:45.480 And this is what my book that I've written that I'm currently editing.

01:08:48.060 Uh, it's called, hopefully I have it out by September.

01:08:51.340 It's going to be called neoliberal kitsch online art and aesthetics in the 21st century.

01:08:57.080 A lot of the problem is that both the political left and right have this kitchified politics 0.83

01:09:01.480 that relies on a kitsch image, a kitsch aesthetic, either what we're seeing now with Columbia

01:09:07.900 university, the kitsch aesthetics of revolutionary protest or the conservative kitsch politics of,

01:09:15.640 uh, wanting to live in a Norman Rockwell painting.

01:09:18.060 So we have two rival regimes of kitsch that are sort of balloting, battling it out.

01:09:24.300 And, uh, it really, yeah, I think that we're going to have to move on from that.

01:09:28.920 I think that's not very conducive to, uh, lifting ourselves off into something greater,

01:09:34.620 whatever that greater might be.

01:09:36.100 I mean, I mean, I know I'm, I'm speaking in vague generalities because it's something

01:09:41.840 that I have yet to deal with because the problem again, is that there's a lot of like thought

01:09:47.400 terminating cliches when you do discuss the politics of futurism because people will call

01:09:52.720 you a fascist or whatever, uh, or even like a lot of people, um, you know, like we'll call 0.50

01:09:58.280 distance or whoever, like a lot of the classical liberals, they, they, they have, uh, a lot

01:10:02.640 of like the weird, like Didish D'Souza, like, you know, the communists and the fascists are

01:10:07.860 getting together to destroy liberalism.

01:10:11.100 And, uh, yeah.

01:10:12.120 So to be fair, that is the Dugan project, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:10:16.180 The, the Dazball thing, right. 0.98

01:10:17.840 But, um, whether or not, like in terms of in the West, whether that's a, a presence is

01:10:23.920 debatable to see.

01:10:25.060 No, I hear you.

01:10:26.180 And like I said, I knew that was a difficult question before I feel that to you, I think

01:10:30.080 one of the biggest problems, and this, this is going to be my drum as my, as my own book

01:10:34.620 comes out and, and just in general is, uh, I think much of it is a matter of scale.

01:10:39.600 I don't think these problems get solved.

01:10:41.720 I think the reason that you fall back on ideology and, and, and catchified culture is that you

01:10:47.320 have processed these things through giant institutions and marketing and you've abstracted

01:10:53.980 them to the point where they've, they've lost all context from like actual organic communities.

01:10:59.460 And I don't think you can solve these problems without, uh, a return not to a

01:11:04.580 particular time, but a way of being that acknowledges that, uh, you know, those things need to

01:11:09.120 be grounded in specific people and places, uh, and just to wrap up or, and like, I think

01:11:14.840 it's, it's a point worth repeating is that post-modernism really was just a reaction to

01:11:19.640 the 20th century, the late 20th century.

01:11:21.800 Um, and I, I think like a lot of that, uh, as a natural outgrowth of a lot of assumptions

01:11:29.020 of what the Western enlightenment project was gearing up towards anyways.

01:11:32.400 And, uh, but then again, there's sort of one thing I will say is that there's always, we

01:11:38.400 don't see it because like you said, we, we live in very institutionalized ideological

01:11:43.220 distinctions, but I do think that there probably was a time where things could have been different.

01:11:50.240 Things could have went, there's sort of like a, a weird, um, plasticity or conjecture to

01:11:56.720 the timeline of the 20th to the 21st century.

01:11:59.740 People like, uh, you know, I know he was a Marxist, but he's a, he was a brilliant thinker,

01:12:03.800 but people like Mark Fisher, for instance, talked about this, about how there was sort

01:12:07.900 of like a specter, you know, there was the, we're, we're haunted.

01:12:11.040 It's a hauntology.

01:12:11.980 We're haunted by the various possibilities of what could have happened.

01:12:15.520 And instead of what did happen and, and you can sort of, and with post-modernism, one of

01:12:21.560 the, I think one of the saving points is that there's a weird eclecticism when it comes

01:12:27.160 to ideas and concepts and that you can sort of like pick them out of the air.

01:12:31.380 You can bring them back.

01:12:32.500 Like all culture can come back.

01:12:34.020 All things can come back.

01:12:35.180 Or you could like selectively ignore certain things above others.

01:12:38.320 I mean, really the, the internet age that we live in, that's what we're living through

01:12:42.400 is that people can choose to, to be, uh, aware of certain things.

01:12:46.200 People can choose to adopt certain contradictory ideological positions or aesthetic positions.

01:12:50.960 There's a lot of aesthetic politics where the image is what really matters over the substance

01:12:56.060 of ideology.

01:12:56.980 And, and that's really like, it's just a recognition of the times that we're living in.

01:13:00.740 And so, uh, yeah, we could have been in a different position, but unfortunately we're

01:13:05.520 not, and we're still haunted by those possibilities.

01:13:08.060 All right, Gio, before we switch over to the questions of the people, I know you got that book

01:13:11.940 that you're working on and I feel for you because editing your own book is terrible.

01:13:16.980 I have help from a, from a good friend of mine.

01:13:18.760 Oh, good, good.

01:13:19.540 Yeah.

01:13:19.700 I also had help.

01:13:20.540 Uh, so, uh, but before we switch over to the questions, is there anything that you

01:13:24.560 want to let people know about where they can find your pod, your various podcasts and

01:13:29.760 or pieces, anything that they should be looking for in the near future?

01:13:33.700 Well, I have two flagship podcasts.

01:13:36.020 One is a content minded.

01:13:37.520 I also do general reviews.

01:13:38.860 Um, people have been paying me money to review various films and, and, and texts, but, uh,

01:13:44.780 my, my YouTube channel is general productions.

01:13:46.620 Uh, you can find me on Twitter, giant Gio, telegram, general productions, my Patreon,

01:13:51.900 patreon.com, such general productions, uh, for great content.

01:13:54.680 I try to release a lot of different stuff a week.

01:13:57.260 I have a lot of like subscriber content at different tiers.

01:14:01.100 Um, so yeah, and also, uh, we had to change times though, but my second podcast is with

01:14:06.860 Prudentialist, uh, digital archipelago.

01:14:09.880 So now the new time for digital archipelago is Tuesday at nighttime at 8 PM Eastern standard

01:14:16.700 because Prude, he he's taken on a new job.

01:14:19.260 And so we had to switch the times, uh, so tomorrow we're going to cover the rise and

01:14:25.520 the fall of the hipster.

01:14:27.040 And we're reading this article from way back in 2012 from the New York times on the hipster

01:14:33.140 and, and irony culture.

01:14:34.780 And, and it really predicted a lot of the ironic detachment that, uh, people have.

01:14:39.840 So hopefully tomorrow it's on my channel, uh, giant productions.

01:14:43.480 So yeah, uh, digital archipelago check it out and content minded.

01:14:49.020 Excellent.

01:14:49.520 All right, guys, make sure you're checking out Gio's work.

01:14:52.480 Uh, our questions here, uh, MLWiz says, good show fellas.

01:14:57.360 Thank you very much, man.

01:14:58.260 Appreciate that.

01:14:59.380 Cooper weirdo says this reminds me of the negative XP song.

01:15:02.840 I can't.

01:15:03.120 Oh, which one?

01:15:03.980 Uh, bad vibes.

01:15:06.880 Not, not familiar with that one, but thank you, sir.

01:15:09.380 Uh, he says, I poke a lot, but he did bring up two interesting books.

01:15:12.500 Jews don't count and woke antisemitism during times that we live in.

01:15:16.340 Yeah.

01:15:16.440 Those are things that current status of whether or not, uh, you know, uh, Jewish settlers

01:15:22.560 in Israel count as colonialists, whether they count as white.

01:15:26.080 Uh, this is something that's very much impacting the current narratives in schools, in colleges,

01:15:32.480 uh, with the, the, the whole woke vanguard versus the establishment on the left showdown

01:15:38.180 is based on kind of the application of this language.

01:15:40.760 So you're right.

01:15:41.300 Those are interesting subjects here.

01:15:43.960 Reagan loud, uh, lodge says, thanks for having geo on Fez gang stay winning.

01:15:49.100 It's always nice when people bring their own crew with them, you know, Jay Burton, all

01:15:52.620 the, all the beavers, uh, show up, you know, you got the Fez gang.

01:15:56.100 So, uh, uh, creeper weirdo says line dot squiggles.

01:16:00.860 All right.

01:16:01.400 Thank you.

01:16:01.920 Sorry.

01:16:03.420 Like Kandinsky painting.

01:16:04.820 Uh, Dugan sounds like, uh, like a not so sensible, uh, centrist or no sensible centrist.

01:16:11.700 Yeah.

01:16:11.800 He's not, he's definitely not a centrist.

01:16:14.000 Uh, like I said, interesting often brings a perspective that I think opens things up

01:16:19.380 for, for me to investigate.

01:16:20.980 But, uh, geo is absolutely right to warn that he needs to be read with a giant chunks of

01:16:25.280 salt because the critical eye.

01:16:26.840 Yeah, he, he definitely has a very obvious, like I said, once you're, once you notice the

01:16:32.440 project, it's everywhere and it's so obvious, it's almost painful.

01:16:35.700 So I think it's pretty easy to read him, uh, while, while keeping that in mind, but I

01:16:40.080 know it's something people do need to do. 0.99

01:16:42.160 Uh, tiny stupid demon says, pause my reading of Dugan to watch the stream. 0.99

01:16:45.400 And yes, it's a very interesting, but mixed bag. 1.00

01:16:48.060 Yeah.

01:16:48.200 That's pretty much exactly how I feel about it.

01:16:50.640 Uh, Gabe underground says geo cell uprising.

01:16:54.180 Oh man.

01:16:55.060 I hope Gabe comes back to Twitter.

01:16:56.840 Uh, check out two keys, Maga, the sidebar podcast.

01:16:59.800 They review a lot of great works of literature and they're quite fun.

01:17:03.980 So yeah.

01:17:05.060 Shout out to Gabe and, uh, the sidebar pod.

01:17:08.460 Carver, where it says, have you guys, uh, seen the lib artist reaction to AI art?

01:17:13.380 It's literally people are conservative about things they love and massively reactionary. 0.98

01:17:17.620 It makes the consumers look really dumb. 0.89

01:17:20.420 I gotta say, I haven't honestly seen a lot of left wing takes on AI art. 0.88

01:17:24.920 What, what are they feeling right now?

01:17:26.560 Are they, are they scared or they, or they think it's reactionary to be worried about

01:17:31.000 it?

01:17:31.160 What's the, Oh, they hate it because they, ironically enough, they're bringing up the intellectual

01:17:35.500 property right thing.

01:17:36.380 But I, I think what it is, is that a lot of the younger zoomer left wing people on Twitter 0.73

01:17:41.580 or on Instagram, uh, some are still on Tumblr.

01:17:45.040 They're, they're, they're threatened by it because a lot of their, like very kitschy digital art,

01:17:50.780 like a lot of their fan art or a lot of their OC original content art that has a very succinct

01:17:57.320 digital, like post Cal arts, uh, style.

01:18:00.980 They're the ones, and they all have Wacom tablets.

01:18:03.980 They're the ones that are going to be sort of, uh, taken over by AR, AI art more than a,

01:18:09.480 a lot of other, I think fine arts will be fine, but when it comes to the quote unquote

01:18:14.220 industry of illustration, animation, design, those are the fields that are mostly going

01:18:21.200 to be affected by, uh, the rise of AI art.

01:18:24.200 Other than that, I think AR it's kind of like a nothing bigger, but that's besides the point.

01:18:28.400 It's just another tool.

01:18:29.160 And Gabe Underground follows up and says, thoughts on Ellie Faye's idea of, uh, Archeofuturism?

01:18:37.460 Oh, I mean, Archeofuturism is a very interesting book.

01:18:41.440 Uh, Faye is sort of, he's got like a weird, uh, thing going on now.

01:18:49.040 I know, for example, Faye hates Tugin because Faye is a solid, like pro-Ukrainian.

01:18:53.600 Uh, but I think that, uh, Archeofuturism is certainly interesting book.

01:18:57.660 Maybe not a lot of it's tenable in the current political climate.

01:19:02.580 Uh, but nevertheless, it is trying to square the impossible circle of tradition and modernity,

01:19:11.320 which, um, yeah, I think that, uh, it's very, it's interesting nevertheless.

01:19:17.840 Yeah.

01:19:18.120 It's very interesting.

01:19:18.840 Now, whether that synthesis can be had, uh, is, is another question, but cause I really

01:19:25.240 think that a lot of people on the political right, they're trying to find that philosopher's

01:19:31.260 stone of how do you square the circle of tradition with a lot of the accoutrements or a lot of

01:19:37.220 the, uh, the spirit of, of modern world.

01:19:40.800 So, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I, it's been many years since I've read it, uh, but neither endorse

01:19:48.580 nor, uh, throw down, I think it's an interesting work.

01:19:52.560 Yeah.

01:19:53.960 And Justy says, geo or Mac approved magazines journals, please.

01:19:58.580 I don't do a lot of magazine reading this day, these days.

01:20:01.720 Uh, obviously, uh, I think I am seeing, I am 1776 is putting out good stuff.

01:20:07.140 Men's world. 0.99

01:20:08.340 Uh, actually the blaze is coming out with, uh, I believe a, uh, a print magazine here soon.

01:20:13.900 I do have an article submitted for that.

01:20:15.860 He's mag is pretty good.

01:20:17.120 Yeah.

01:20:17.340 Yeah.

01:20:17.660 Yeah.

01:20:17.880 That's a, I'm trying to think of other, uh, excellent ones.

01:20:21.940 Those are the ones that come to my mind right away, but I don't know if you have any more

01:20:25.460 geo.

01:20:26.320 Hmm.

01:20:28.340 Oh, I mean, there was asylum.

01:20:30.200 There was, uh, I'm trying to think.

01:20:34.220 Oh, I mean, passage, but of course passage prize.

01:20:36.580 They're only doing the last one now.

01:20:38.980 Yeah.

01:20:39.200 That's more of a, you know, the, the contests and everything, but those are great for sure.

01:20:43.040 I think they're going to go to this mainstream publishing now.

01:20:46.260 So yeah.

01:20:47.540 Lego says Ukraine is a Bolshevik project.

01:20:51.100 All right.

01:20:53.800 There's a, there's debate over that, the construction of Ukraine state, but I mean, that's another

01:20:58.660 stream for another time.

01:21:00.100 Yeah.

01:21:00.400 Like that could be its own, its own rabbit hole.

01:21:03.360 All right, guys, well, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up.

01:21:06.080 Thank you so much for coming by.

01:21:07.460 Make sure that you're checking out geo's excellent work.

01:21:10.040 And of course, if it's your first time on this channel, make sure you go ahead and subscribe,

01:21:13.760 turn on the notifications, click the bell.

01:21:15.380 So you can see these streams when they go live.

01:21:18.920 Of course, if you want to get these broadcasts as podcasts, then go ahead and check out the

01:21:22.360 Orin McIntyre show on your favorite podcast platform.

01:21:24.640 When you do leave a rating overview, it really helps with the algorithm.

01:21:28.120 And of course, if you'd like to go ahead and pre-order my book, the total state, you just

01:21:33.400 got a few weeks left.

01:21:34.500 You can go ahead and do that on Amazon.

01:21:36.620 Thank you everybody once again for watching.

01:21:38.840 And as always, we'll talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - April 22, 2024

The Alternative to Postmodernism ｜ Guest： Gio Pennacchietti ｜ 4⧸22⧸24

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