The Auron MacIntyre Show - The Devouring Mother and the Total State ｜ Guest： Mary Harrington

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00:00:30.260 Hey everybody, how's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.820 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:38.840 So Mary Harrington is back and she's written a very interesting piece.

00:00:42.600 Actually, she's also got a very interesting book I just got to read here.

00:00:46.340 Got done recently. It's Feminism Against Progress.

00:00:51.120 And don't freak out just because it has the word feminism in it.

00:00:54.640 I think a lot of people will find it very interesting look at kind of our modern world and what is going on.

00:01:00.000 But Mary, thanks for joining me.

00:01:01.840 Thanks for having me.

00:01:03.240 So you had a very interesting piece about the devouring mother on your substack this week.

00:01:08.560 And I want to get into that because I think, as you pointed out to me,

00:01:11.880 it ties in very well with the idea of the total state and kind of how our hypervigilant culture,

00:01:17.760 our massified culture is working to kind of, even from a very young age, from the age of infants,

00:01:26.040 normalize people to this idea of the overbearing state.

00:01:29.700 But before we jump into that, guys, let's go ahead and hear from today's sponsor.

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00:02:53.280 All right, guys.

00:02:54.220 So let's go ahead and jump into it.

00:02:56.400 So like I said, Mary had a very interesting piece that kind of dovetails with her book,

00:03:00.940 Feminism Against Progress.

00:03:02.360 But she was talking about how the devouring mother is something that is really impacting the way people interact with the surveillance state.

00:03:14.340 That kind of the tendency of our next generation to be okay with a large amount of state surveillance is tied to the way that we now rear children.

00:03:25.340 So Mary, could you kind of lay out that argument a little bit?

00:03:28.860 Sure.

00:03:29.160 My sense is often, Oren, you and I are looking at the same phenomena, but from opposite ends of the telescope.

00:03:34.860 And this is definitely one of those.

00:03:36.520 So my hypothesis is that, well, I mean, I'll come at it from another angle.

00:03:43.880 It's a classic left-wing critique of education in the conventional sense that the lesson it teaches is not just the content that's being delivered,

00:03:55.100 but also the manner of the environment that it habituates young people to.

00:03:59.740 And the classic left-wing critique of regimented Victorian-style education is that it's intentionally forming the masses to work in the factories,

00:04:09.900 the regime of bells, the regime of punctuality, the learning of, you know, the habituation to repetitive tasks of a mundane nature.

00:04:21.600 And the idea is that we should find a mode of education which isn't just norming people for the factories.

00:04:27.080 Now, if you, and I guess I sort of took that, I mean, let's set aside the critique of industrial society, because that's not where we are anymore.

00:04:36.280 But if you look at a conventional third-party childcare setting through the same lens, you've got to ask yourself, what is the environment teaching?

00:04:50.040 Right. Now, to be clear, I've used third-party childcare. I have one child, she's six now, but she spent some time, a measured and manageable amount of time in preschools and third-party childcare settings.

00:05:03.040 And I've also spent some time as a stay-at-home mum. I've done both of these things, and I've done my best to try to find a balance of these things.

00:05:10.000 But one of the things that that experience left me with just was some structural contrasts between the kind of care or the kind of environment, the environmental lessons, if you like, of third-party childcare compared to the environmental lessons that you pick up if you're in the care of a parent or somebody with more direct responsibility for you.

00:05:32.460 And the thing that really started me thinking about this was the aesthetics of the bump note, which I don't know if you have kids, but if you have kids, every time they have a minor injury or a minor accident at school or nursery or anywhere like that, they'll come home with an entire bureaucracy that emerges around the bump.

00:05:54.220 So, I mean, I don't know what it's like in the United States, but in the settings that my daughter's been in, that tends to be, it's a flimsy, sort of roughly, that's been filled out in triplicate.

00:06:05.580 You can tell because you've got one of the duplicates or triplicates or whatever, and a copy has gone into a ledger somewhere else, and it will report the time of the incident, the nature of the incident.

00:06:15.640 There's a whole bureaucracy of the bump note, and what I came to realise is that the bump note also has an emotional currency as well.

00:06:21.920 Now, you come home with a bump note, the bump note is produced from the bag, and then you relive the incident again, and some of the emotional weight of falling over and crying, and you're comforted by your parents all over again.

00:06:33.620 And there's also an emotional currency of the bump note amongst kids as well.

00:06:37.180 So there's this entire elaborate bureaucracy of minor accidents of the sort which, and I was thinking, well, this is odd, because, I mean, most of these are recounting the kind of incident where if my daughter was in my care,

00:06:48.520 when something like that happened, I'd be just like, oh, dear, never mind, kiss better, and distract her with, and we'd go off and do something else,

00:06:55.500 so it would just be like nothing really happened.

00:06:58.220 And it's not like, you know, if we were all sitting around the dinner table at the end of the day,

00:07:03.000 she would then report with great fanfare that she'd fallen over and raised her knee, because, I mean, whatever, it happens, and nobody cares.

00:07:10.120 Well, you know, mummy going for a kiss better, and then the day went on, kind of no comment.

00:07:14.120 And so I was thinking, what happens then when you scale that up?

00:07:18.880 Well, there are two things that happen.

00:07:20.460 Firstly, you have a whole bunch of parents who, for completely well-meaning and loving reasons,

00:07:27.440 will allow their kids to take risks in their own care.

00:07:31.020 And this is true of me, for sure.

00:07:33.080 I would have let, in my own, you know, when in my care, I'd let a three-year-old walk along a wall next to me without holding my hand,

00:07:39.640 and enjoy letting her take that risk and feel crazy and adventurous, even though it's like 18 inches off the ground, you know.

00:07:47.140 But if, in a childcare setting, there's absolutely no way that the person in charge of my child would have committed her to take that risk.

00:07:57.820 And I probably would have been kind of annoyed with her if she had, and she'd then come home with a bum note.

00:08:01.520 And I'd be like, why are you letting my, why are you treating, why are you watching my child this recklessly?

00:08:08.960 So when you scale that up, and you scale up the drama and the dynamics and the emotional currency of the bump note,

00:08:15.220 which is, you know, the bureaucracy of injury, if you like, and you also scale up the muted risk-taking,

00:08:21.440 and then you think about the proportion, I believe it's something that 75% of British mothers with dependent children now work at least some of the time.

00:08:31.140 I don't know what the statistics are, and I think it's a bit lower in the USA, it's 50 or 60%, thereabouts.

00:08:36.720 I forget the most recent numbers, but it's more than half in any case.

00:08:42.860 And some of these resume work very barbarically soon after their babies are born, some are back at work after only two weeks.

00:08:49.320 And essentially their babies grow up entirely in these sort of three third-party childcare settings.

00:08:54.440 And you're thinking, and quite aside from the attachment dynamic of third-party childcare,

00:09:02.180 just the bureaucratisation of safety and the norms that this inculcates from the very earliest age about what care means and what care looks like,

00:09:13.080 I think are radically different to the kind of experience and the kind of norms which are inculcated in an intimate family setting,

00:09:19.040 even with grandparents.

00:09:20.660 And really, and so my thesis, which I've expanded a bit more lengthily in the book,

00:09:27.120 but kind of compacted for this article, is that if you raise one, two, three generations in that sort of third-party environment,

00:09:37.800 they're going to assume that what care looks like is something much more impersonal, much more risk-averse,

00:09:43.860 much more safety-oriented, and much more, frankly, totalitarian, because there's no way out of it.

00:09:49.600 You know, this is an environment which is entirely focused on minimising risk, maximising the orientation on them,

00:09:54.960 and ensuring their comfort at all times, including refereeing and interpersonal quarrels.

00:09:59.800 And then you think, well, funnily enough, around 20 years after the mass entry of little children into daycare,

00:10:06.620 we find a generation-reaching university which is begging for greater authoritarianism,

00:10:13.440 is pleading for more of a focus on safety, and is demanding greater adult intervention in their interpersonal disputes and experiences of discomfort.

00:10:23.000 And you're thinking, where could this possibly come from?

00:10:25.040 I don't know.

00:10:25.600 Maybe you've got some ideas.

00:10:27.620 No, I think this is really important because a lot of us look at this kind of macro-political situation.

00:10:32.740 We look at the big picture, but we don't think about kind of these small, close-to-the-ground developmental things

00:10:39.900 that can have a huge shift in impact.

00:10:42.860 Everyone's worried about, you know, is it going to be Trump or DeSantis?

00:10:46.200 Are we going to have this policy or that policy?

00:10:48.840 But we don't think about how these pretty life-altering changes in things like childcare

00:10:53.860 can completely condition the population.

00:10:56.240 And having been on – I've seen this from both sides.

00:10:58.840 You know, I've taught public school in the United States, and I've had a little guy at home.

00:11:03.780 And so I see, you know, how this works.

00:11:06.360 We don't have bump notes, but that's a new concept for me in America.

00:11:11.280 But, of course, we do have kind of a similar – well, if, you know, the child is injured,

00:11:15.660 then there's a whole kind of bureaucracy you have to go through.

00:11:18.780 You have to take them to the nurse.

00:11:20.840 There has to be, you know, paperwork filed.

00:11:23.060 The parent has to be notified.

00:11:24.500 The teacher has to be worried about the – whatever that student was involved in kind of during that incident.

00:11:33.540 And so that means that there's a real shift away from any contact between children that could cause injury.

00:11:39.880 So, you know, a little guy wants to go to, you know, outside, ride his bike.

00:11:44.920 He wants to go to the skate park.

00:11:46.280 He wants to do those things.

00:11:47.520 I'm fine with that because I know, you know, we have the situation under control.

00:11:52.420 We can assume the risks.

00:11:53.980 That's something that's not going to be a huge deal.

00:11:55.720 If he falls down, scrapes his leg, you know, whatever, he can kind of have that autonomy, and it's not a big deal.

00:12:01.420 But at school, you have to be very careful about the type of interactions that happen.

00:12:06.480 And what happens is, very interestingly, along with that risk avoidance you're talking about,

00:12:10.660 we also get a feminization of these spaces, I believe,

00:12:13.840 because a lot of those more adolescent male activities are going to be more physical.

00:12:19.880 They're going to be more kinetic.

00:12:21.260 They're going to involve a more rough and tumble.

00:12:22.980 Not that, you know, girls don't get involved in that stuff too.

00:12:25.980 But I think this particularly has a shift in the way that the classroom or the socialization is allowed to kind of occur

00:12:33.460 because feminine activities tend to be a little less risky, tend to be a little less physical in this way.

00:12:40.920 The way that that social dynamic develops is a little less likely to produce the bump note as opposed to kind of...

00:12:50.440 This makes me think of the conversations I enjoy amongst friends who have girl toddlers as opposed to boy toddlers.

00:12:57.620 On the one hand, you hear, oh, you know, she's just so sweet and she wants to hang out and, like, play tea sets or whatever.

00:13:05.500 And I'm sorry, but, like, these things just happen.

00:13:08.560 It's not like anybody's implicating patriarchal stereotypes.

00:13:11.780 It's literally just that they're really different.

00:13:13.600 And boy mum, meanwhile, is like, oh, my God, he stuck his finger in my treadmill.

00:13:18.860 Literally, like, I switched it on and turned my back for two seconds and he'd already got his fingers in.

00:13:23.120 And then it was four hours in A&E, just hashtag FML.

00:13:25.800 Well, he's done it. Literally, that's the fourth time he's tried to kill himself today.

00:13:29.840 And he's two and a half. What do I do? Please, somebody pray for me.

00:13:34.380 And you can see how.

00:13:37.380 I mean, and this is mums who are with their toddlers.

00:13:42.820 And you can see how, you know, once you abstract that to a third-party setting

00:13:46.680 where these calculuses of insurance and liability and angry parents and risk-taking and licensing

00:13:54.220 and yada, yada, yada, yada, yada all obtain that, you know, you just have to sit very hard

00:13:59.200 on the little boys who are connected like that.

00:14:02.380 I mean, not all of them are, but a lot of them just really are.

00:14:05.140 And you basically have to sit on their heads all day to just stop them doing anything

00:14:09.540 that would get you sued.

00:14:11.620 Yeah, there's a...

00:14:13.020 I was just going to say, there's a very real dynamic in those settings

00:14:17.760 where, like, teachers actively avoid having classrooms with too many boys in them

00:14:22.240 because they just know that boys are less, you know,

00:14:26.980 likely to condition themselves this way immediately.

00:14:30.720 And so they kind of go out of their way to affect the mix or avoid those.

00:14:35.300 And so, again, I just think that has a very significant impact

00:14:38.460 on the way that these developmental spaces get shaped

00:14:41.900 with that risk avoidance that you're talking about.

00:14:44.060 Yeah, absolutely.

00:14:44.820 And I think it's completely wrong-headed.

00:14:46.420 I mean, going back to the campus thing,

00:14:48.320 I think periodically you hear the kind of anti-woke classical liberal type.

00:14:54.060 I'm sure you know that kind of spectrum of voices

00:14:57.020 who will say, oh, you know, it's another, you know, madness intensifies.

00:15:01.100 You know, here comes another bunch of woke administrators

00:15:04.640 who are inculcating young people in this insane safetyism.

00:15:10.420 You know, when will this madness end?

00:15:12.840 And I'm like, this isn't coming from the...

00:15:15.080 I mean, maybe some of it's coming from the administrators now,

00:15:17.960 but it's not coming from the academics.

00:15:19.720 It really isn't.

00:15:20.920 You know, the demand is coming from the bottom up.

00:15:22.800 And actually, you know, the norms that drive that demand

00:15:27.900 originate in kids' lives much, much, much, much, much earlier.

00:15:32.500 And I think you can trace it all the way back to even preschool

00:15:35.340 in infant daycare.

00:15:37.520 Because that paradigm of child-focused, safety-anxious management

00:15:45.380 and interpersonal refereeing is there all the way from preschool.

00:15:49.120 And once you see it in preschool, then it's very hard to unsee it

00:15:53.840 in the demand that young people have, the demands that are led

00:15:57.680 by young people for a continuation of that dynamic

00:16:00.340 into the university setting.

00:16:03.120 I remember there was one...

00:16:04.400 I'm sure you remember all the evergreen footage.

00:16:06.420 This is the first kind of eruption into consciousness

00:16:08.980 of the kids going crazy in this way.

00:16:12.260 And then there was one very obviously very distressed

00:16:15.500 and dysregulated young woman who was saying,

00:16:17.280 this is meant to be a home.

00:16:19.420 And I was thinking, what does home mean for her such that

00:16:22.580 it involves no risk and maximum management

00:16:25.420 of everybody's feelings?

00:16:26.560 And eventually it hit me that for her, home actually meant daycare.

00:16:30.960 Because that was...

00:16:31.840 Chances were...

00:16:33.380 I mean, I don't know.

00:16:34.360 I'd have to...

00:16:35.580 I'm sure somebody could figure her down and ask her.

00:16:38.140 But, you know, there's a lot of double-income families

00:16:42.600 where everybody has to work in order to afford to send their kids to college.

00:16:47.340 You know, is it any wonder that they grow up assuming

00:16:49.460 that home looks a bit like daycare

00:16:50.620 and involves the same level of interpersonal risk management

00:16:54.040 and refereeing as a daycare?

00:16:55.840 There's also an interesting kind of class dynamic here

00:16:59.120 in that while, like you said, a majority of homes

00:17:03.420 now have two parents needing to work to kind of make ends meet.

00:17:07.460 The more affluent parents

00:17:09.540 or even the more middle-income parents

00:17:12.340 will put their children in daycare.

00:17:14.900 The lower-income parents will actually often

00:17:18.060 just leave their children to their own devices

00:17:20.440 or have older children care for the younger children in this way.

00:17:26.060 And so interestingly, it is kind of this middle class

00:17:30.020 or the aspirational class

00:17:32.860 that is more likely to put their children

00:17:35.060 into these over-socialization situations.

00:17:39.480 You'll see, you know, a 10-year-old, you know,

00:17:43.500 who's in a lower-class area

00:17:45.980 will be more than used to walking themselves

00:17:48.560 down to the corner market,

00:17:49.880 picking things up for the family,

00:17:52.320 you know, occupying themselves outside for hours on end

00:17:55.240 like many of us did.

00:17:56.300 You know, when I was a kid,

00:17:57.020 I was riding my bike halfway across town

00:18:00.420 to go to a store,

00:18:02.300 that kind of thing that I wanted to go to.

00:18:04.020 That was considered very normal.

00:18:05.980 And, you know, I'm old, but I'm not that old.

00:18:08.300 And now if you have a 10-year-old out

00:18:10.700 riding their bike alone

00:18:11.920 more than a mile from the house,

00:18:13.900 you know, they're going to be calling

00:18:15.000 Child Protective Services on you

00:18:16.580 if you're in a middle-class neighborhood.

00:18:19.960 If you're in a low-class neighborhood,

00:18:21.060 they won't even think of it twice.

00:18:23.200 Yeah, yeah, for sure.

00:18:24.360 There are times when I wonder,

00:18:25.840 you know, periodically you see

00:18:27.100 these clips of footage going around

00:18:29.240 teenagers going nuts in McDonald's.

00:18:32.260 You know the genre.

00:18:34.120 You know, where there's just some completely

00:18:36.200 kind of just full-on, like, you know,

00:18:37.960 multi-person, chaotic chimp-out occurring

00:18:40.320 in a fast food joint.

00:18:41.980 And you see these periodically.

00:18:43.460 And so sometimes I wonder whether, in fact,

00:18:45.540 what we're looking at there

00:18:46.660 is a similar phenomenon,

00:18:48.600 just in a different class key

00:18:51.020 to the chimp-outs you get

00:18:52.580 inexpensive Ivy League colleges

00:18:54.800 over safety and home.

00:18:57.300 It suggests the same sort of

00:18:59.600 dysregulated relationship

00:19:01.220 to the kind of wider social setting.

00:19:05.600 And yeah, and there have been times

00:19:06.760 when I wondered how many of the kids

00:19:09.220 who are going bananas in McDonald's

00:19:10.500 are just the ones who were parked

00:19:12.060 in substandard childcare

00:19:13.080 from the age of two weeks old

00:19:14.260 and are just incredibly messed up

00:19:16.220 because they never had somebody

00:19:17.900 pick them up when they were screaming

00:19:18.920 or really paying the attention

00:19:20.620 to them at all

00:19:21.220 because they've just been warehoused

00:19:22.320 in little rows.

00:19:24.280 I mean, it messed up

00:19:24.960 the Romanian orphans under Czescu.

00:19:27.400 And you've got to wonder

00:19:28.560 what effect that has at scale

00:19:30.160 on the working class

00:19:31.020 who are the ones most likely

00:19:32.600 to be having to go back to work

00:19:34.580 and have absolutely no financial cushion,

00:19:36.240 such as to be able to take any time off

00:19:37.720 or really to have the kind of job

00:19:39.940 that comes with any maternity benefits.

00:19:42.140 I mean, I feel blessed to live in a country

00:19:44.160 where there is at least

00:19:44.880 a statutory minimum on that front.

00:19:46.220 But I mean, I'm aware that Americans

00:19:48.420 don't really see it in quite the same way.

00:19:50.120 Yeah, I think there are

00:19:51.320 there are some consequences to that, perhaps.

00:19:53.340 Yeah, I think it's something that

00:19:54.740 especially those who think of themselves

00:19:56.240 as socially conservative

00:19:57.400 need to start really reconsidering.

00:20:00.180 I understand the concern about,

00:20:01.780 you know, government intervention

00:20:03.520 in these things.

00:20:04.360 But if your if your formulation is

00:20:06.960 I want stronger families,

00:20:08.140 I want people to be able to form families.

00:20:10.240 But you're also not thinking about

00:20:12.120 how to create an environment

00:20:13.520 where women can care for their children directly

00:20:16.340 and provide the kind of,

00:20:17.640 you know, the kind of bond

00:20:19.420 that only the mother can form.

00:20:21.560 I think that you're

00:20:22.760 you're putting your priorities

00:20:23.980 in the wrong place.

00:20:25.500 Yeah, I think there's some

00:20:26.200 there's some justice to the joy

00:20:27.720 of you here sometimes

00:20:28.400 from feminists who say

00:20:30.100 that it's all very well

00:20:32.180 insisting on insisting on

00:20:34.100 caring for the unborn.

00:20:35.380 But, you know, you could maybe

00:20:36.560 spare a thought for the born

00:20:37.540 that one again as well.

00:20:39.060 Sure. And yeah, I'm with you there.

00:20:40.680 It's just sadly, once once they do,

00:20:43.180 I don't think a lot changes.

00:20:44.700 But it's nonetheless,

00:20:46.080 it is something that many

00:20:47.000 on the right need to need

00:20:48.660 to think about.

00:20:49.360 So I had considered the first part

00:20:51.960 that you were talking about

00:20:53.000 with the child care

00:20:53.900 and why that impacts people

00:20:55.820 to be, you know,

00:20:57.360 kind of more conducive

00:20:59.240 to the overwhelming state,

00:21:01.120 because that's something, again,

00:21:02.500 that I had directly experienced

00:21:04.440 with with my time teaching.

00:21:06.580 But the second one that you brought up,

00:21:08.220 which I thought was pretty interesting

00:21:09.580 that I had really considered

00:21:10.660 a whole lot,

00:21:11.720 was the kind of the digital native,

00:21:13.940 the the generation

00:21:15.280 that has been brought up

00:21:16.500 inside kind of the constant

00:21:18.460 contact the Internet

00:21:19.760 and the relationship they have

00:21:21.080 with kind of their personal information.

00:21:24.020 Many, especially as the Internet

00:21:25.520 was kind of getting on boarded,

00:21:26.760 were more than happy

00:21:27.600 to hand over large amounts

00:21:29.300 of personal information and data

00:21:31.420 to companies because

00:21:33.220 it had just never really been

00:21:34.440 collected that way before.

00:21:35.920 It just had never been

00:21:37.720 this this panopticon

00:21:39.100 of online data collection

00:21:42.540 that had allowed for that.

00:21:44.040 And so they didn't really think

00:21:44.740 they were trading anything

00:21:46.060 for these now free services.

00:21:48.920 But as many people

00:21:50.120 have now understood,

00:21:50.960 if you're not paying anything

00:21:52.520 for the service,

00:21:53.880 you're the product.

00:21:55.280 Right.

00:21:55.760 And so and so it's very interesting

00:21:57.580 that that new relationship

00:21:59.000 with handing over

00:22:00.540 my digital information

00:22:02.220 to different entities

00:22:04.740 now being kind of

00:22:06.200 my entry ticket

00:22:07.240 to being allowed

00:22:08.320 to exist in these online spaces.

00:22:10.380 Yeah, I think there are

00:22:11.420 it strikes me that

00:22:13.080 it's as plausible,

00:22:14.260 at least that there's a

00:22:15.180 there's a whole bunch of kids

00:22:16.060 who just don't really see

00:22:17.140 that as an issue at all.

00:22:18.920 I mean, to an extent,

00:22:20.220 that ship is that ship

00:22:21.240 is a dot on the horizon.

00:22:22.340 Right.

00:22:22.920 You know, I.

00:22:24.360 We hope you're enjoying

00:22:25.480 your Air Canada flight.

00:22:26.800 Rocky's vacation.

00:22:28.040 Here we come.

00:22:29.540 Whoa.

00:22:30.140 Is this economy?

00:22:31.140 Free beer, wine and snacks.

00:22:34.100 Sweet.

00:22:35.200 Fast free Wi-Fi means

00:22:36.480 I can make dinner reservations

00:22:37.600 before we land.

00:22:39.260 And with live TV,

00:22:40.540 I'm not missing the game.

00:22:42.280 It's kind of like

00:22:43.040 I'm already on vacation.

00:22:45.460 Nice.

00:22:46.620 On behalf of Air Canada,

00:22:48.260 nice travels.

00:22:49.720 Wi-Fi available to

00:22:50.560 aeroplane members

00:22:51.180 on Equip Flight

00:22:51.660 sponsored by Bell.

00:22:52.480 Conditions apply.

00:22:53.180 See your Canada dot com.

00:22:54.720 You know, those obligatory

00:22:55.780 things that you have to click

00:22:56.860 to accept cookies.

00:22:57.900 Otherwise, the website

00:22:58.660 won't talk to you.

00:22:59.560 I mean, everyone just

00:23:01.720 everyone just clicks OK, right?

00:23:03.460 And all it really does

00:23:04.440 is drive home

00:23:05.280 how often you're relinquishing

00:23:07.000 yet another little bit

00:23:07.960 of your personal

00:23:09.020 digital footprint

00:23:10.300 to whoever the data brokers are.

00:23:12.800 And periodically,

00:23:13.360 I start reading through

00:23:14.500 one of these reports

00:23:15.200 on what the data brokers

00:23:16.080 actually do

00:23:16.780 and then what happens

00:23:17.560 when your data gets aggregated

00:23:18.880 and just how

00:23:19.580 just how finally

00:23:21.120 it can be sliced

00:23:22.040 and how minutely

00:23:23.680 it's possible

00:23:24.480 to track you,

00:23:25.900 me personally,

00:23:26.840 Mary Harrington down

00:23:27.980 based on what's in that

00:23:29.980 once it's all being collected

00:23:32.040 and sliced

00:23:33.320 and aggregated.

00:23:35.220 And I think, well,

00:23:36.200 there's a bit of me

00:23:38.300 which is tempted to think,

00:23:39.180 well, I guess that ship

00:23:40.500 has kind of sailed.

00:23:41.600 But it's also just like

00:23:42.920 it's just so horrific.

00:23:45.960 It's just so horrific

00:23:46.960 to think about

00:23:47.560 how much of that

00:23:48.580 how much of that

00:23:49.220 is just kind of a done deal,

00:23:50.740 you know,

00:23:50.960 in a sense of in a sense

00:23:51.960 how much of me

00:23:52.540 is already out there

00:23:53.480 and how much of me

00:23:54.580 is just irretrievably so.

00:23:56.480 I mean, short of,

00:23:57.860 I don't know,

00:23:58.400 changing my name,

00:23:59.460 deleting all of my accounts,

00:24:00.780 you know,

00:24:00.940 going dark and, you know,

00:24:02.060 going off to live

00:24:02.680 in the woods like Uncle Ted.

00:24:03.640 I don't really know.

00:24:05.400 I don't really know

00:24:06.440 what you do about it.

00:24:08.320 You know,

00:24:08.600 if you participate,

00:24:09.900 then you're just clicking OK

00:24:10.900 on that little thing all day.

00:24:12.560 And all it really does

00:24:13.680 is tell you how much

00:24:14.420 of yourself you're giving away.

00:24:15.680 It doesn't, you know,

00:24:16.400 there's no meaningful

00:24:17.460 consent there at all

00:24:18.480 because at the end of the day,

00:24:19.380 if you don't participate,

00:24:20.640 you just,

00:24:21.660 to a significant extent

00:24:22.840 in the public square

00:24:23.820 as it is now,

00:24:24.420 you just don't exist.

00:24:26.620 So, interesting that you brought up

00:24:28.400 Uncle Ted there

00:24:29.540 because obviously

00:24:30.720 with the death of Ted Kaczynski

00:24:32.640 this week,

00:24:34.320 a lot of people have been

00:24:36.040 taking an interest

00:24:37.200 in what he had said

00:24:38.960 or having debates

00:24:40.720 about the legacy

00:24:42.060 of his thought

00:24:43.000 and kind of what he,

00:24:44.480 what he had put out there

00:24:47.120 as in relation to

00:24:48.760 kind of industrial society.

00:24:50.820 Now, just to clarify

00:24:52.060 for YouTube

00:24:52.780 and everyone,

00:24:53.820 you know,

00:24:54.340 we're obviously

00:24:55.080 not going to be promoting

00:24:56.100 Ted Kaczynski's actions,

00:24:57.680 his political actions here.

00:24:59.140 Clearly not an endorsement.

00:25:00.420 However,

00:25:00.680 you've already used

00:25:01.340 the word over-socialized,

00:25:03.120 so we were kind of

00:25:03.900 already there, right?

00:25:04.660 So we already knew

00:25:05.400 we were coming here.

00:25:06.620 But, you know,

00:25:07.600 I listened to

00:25:08.740 the old manifesto

00:25:10.200 this week

00:25:10.820 on Skeptical Waves.

00:25:12.300 Shout out Skeptical Waves here,

00:25:13.680 which is kind of ironic,

00:25:14.700 I guess,

00:25:15.120 listening to a manifesto

00:25:16.420 against technological

00:25:18.200 advancement in society

00:25:19.720 on a YouTube channel

00:25:20.780 read to me by a robot.

00:25:22.860 But it is interesting

00:25:25.660 because a lot of

00:25:27.100 what you have talked about,

00:25:28.440 you know,

00:25:28.640 for people who don't know,

00:25:30.280 kind of the thesis of,

00:25:32.020 or one of the theses

00:25:32.920 of your book,

00:25:35.000 Feminism Against Progress,

00:25:36.120 is that feminism

00:25:37.660 was more of a movement

00:25:39.460 about our relationship

00:25:40.920 to technology

00:25:41.920 than it really was

00:25:43.720 about some kind of

00:25:44.880 ideological transformation.

00:25:45.780 Yeah, I don't believe

00:25:47.720 in progress.

00:25:48.260 Progress is not a thing.

00:25:49.420 It was a,

00:25:49.920 but it was a often

00:25:51.160 legitimate response

00:25:52.440 to the way family life

00:25:53.380 changed under the

00:25:54.200 industrial conditions,

00:25:55.220 which it did

00:25:55.860 in a huge number of ways.

00:25:57.900 Right.

00:25:58.460 And so this is,

00:25:59.640 of course,

00:25:59.980 also in many ways,

00:26:01.540 Ted Kaczynski's

00:26:02.520 kind of foundational

00:26:04.100 understanding

00:26:05.020 is that

00:26:05.680 the technology,

00:26:07.760 the society's interaction

00:26:09.740 with technology

00:26:10.520 and progress

00:26:11.380 is kind of way more

00:26:13.100 important than its

00:26:13.760 actual political systems.

00:26:15.620 These are the things

00:26:16.220 that are going to shape

00:26:16.980 people far more.

00:26:19.120 And so as we kind of

00:26:20.000 look at these problems,

00:26:21.340 many of which

00:26:21.900 are linked back to,

00:26:23.540 again,

00:26:23.820 you know,

00:26:24.620 the need of people

00:26:25.700 to conform to a system,

00:26:27.200 the constant surveillance,

00:26:29.660 the constant interaction

00:26:31.220 with bureaucratic management,

00:26:33.220 the constant need

00:26:34.260 to kind of homogenize

00:26:36.980 and reduce people

00:26:38.460 into kind of

00:26:39.380 a managerial state

00:26:40.620 so techniques can

00:26:41.660 routinely produce

00:26:43.180 pre-described outcomes.

00:26:46.040 With that necessity,

00:26:48.040 it becomes very difficult,

00:26:49.560 I think,

00:26:50.140 for people then

00:26:50.720 to think about

00:26:51.500 what comes next

00:26:52.620 because,

00:26:53.220 as you pointed out,

00:26:54.760 you know,

00:26:54.980 women aren't just

00:26:55.640 putting their children

00:26:56.520 into daycare

00:26:57.500 because they really want to.

00:26:59.140 They're putting children

00:27:00.300 into daycare

00:27:01.180 right after they have them

00:27:02.420 because our system

00:27:03.820 requires them to.

00:27:05.600 Right.

00:27:05.840 And that then

00:27:07.420 puts children

00:27:08.100 into this state

00:27:09.680 where they are

00:27:10.820 immediately being put,

00:27:12.160 raised by bureaucrats

00:27:13.680 and being conditioned

00:27:14.620 to conform

00:27:15.740 to a larger

00:27:16.720 centralized management.

00:27:18.720 And I think people

00:27:19.260 have a hard time

00:27:19.940 then looking at

00:27:20.860 what's going on

00:27:21.580 and saying,

00:27:22.040 how could we possibly

00:27:23.260 escape this

00:27:24.040 without at some point

00:27:25.580 recognizing that

00:27:27.320 industrialization,

00:27:29.740 you know,

00:27:30.040 that kind of,

00:27:31.140 the advancement

00:27:31.620 has been a disaster

00:27:32.880 in many ways

00:27:34.080 to kind of

00:27:34.460 social relationships.

00:27:36.240 Right.

00:27:36.400 I think

00:27:37.560 one of the reasons

00:27:40.360 nobody ever stops

00:27:41.200 to contemplate

00:27:42.180 the social conditioning

00:27:44.460 effect of daycare,

00:27:46.260 so in particular,

00:27:47.220 I think it's striking

00:27:48.520 that very,

00:27:50.200 it's striking

00:27:51.180 how few on the right

00:27:52.420 are willing

00:27:53.280 to contemplate

00:27:54.020 the social conditioning

00:27:54.840 impact of daycare,

00:27:55.960 even as that

00:27:56.920 militates actively

00:27:57.920 against a great many

00:27:58.980 conservative desires,

00:28:00.340 you know,

00:28:00.580 not least the inculcation

00:28:02.280 of, you know,

00:28:03.160 the spirit of liberty

00:28:04.300 or, you know,

00:28:05.260 even fairly bog-standard

00:28:06.920 right liberal concerns

00:28:08.400 for the straightforward

00:28:10.380 reason that

00:28:11.300 if you,

00:28:13.460 removing kids

00:28:14.220 from daycare

00:28:14.840 means removing

00:28:15.920 a solid 30%

00:28:17.060 of your workforce

00:28:18.080 from the market

00:28:19.220 and that's just

00:28:20.760 somewhere where

00:28:21.560 your average normicon

00:28:22.760 is not willing to go,

00:28:24.200 you know,

00:28:24.400 and they'll dress it up

00:28:25.720 as women's autonomy

00:28:26.760 and, you know,

00:28:27.760 various sort of

00:28:28.260 nice-sounding,

00:28:29.020 empowering

00:28:30.180 platitudes like that,

00:28:33.700 but fundamentally

00:28:34.560 it's a significant

00:28:36.760 chunk of your

00:28:37.260 workforce gone

00:28:37.960 and for what?

00:28:40.000 You know,

00:28:40.200 some indefinable gain

00:28:41.680 that you might

00:28:42.200 or might not

00:28:42.720 obtain 20 years

00:28:43.660 down the line,

00:28:44.720 you know,

00:28:45.040 are you going to

00:28:46.500 be able to sell that

00:28:47.220 to any of your

00:28:48.700 voters or investors

00:28:49.600 or supporters?

00:28:51.220 Unlikely,

00:28:51.860 to be honest.

00:28:53.060 Unlikely.

00:28:53.640 And so,

00:28:54.320 again and again

00:28:55.060 and again

00:28:55.540 when these policies,

00:28:58.120 yeah,

00:28:58.380 it's just,

00:28:59.080 it's the third rail

00:28:59.980 fundamentally

00:29:00.540 and it gets justified,

00:29:03.560 you know,

00:29:03.700 we tell a different

00:29:04.180 story about it

00:29:04.940 on the left

00:29:05.320 and on the right

00:29:05.880 but fundamentally

00:29:06.760 it's about

00:29:07.420 the liquefaction

00:29:08.900 of family

00:29:09.460 and it's reordering

00:29:11.400 to the market

00:29:12.000 and nobody wants

00:29:14.060 to look at the

00:29:14.560 downstream impacts

00:29:15.400 on the people

00:29:16.360 who are least,

00:29:17.020 who have the least

00:29:18.060 choice of all

00:29:18.760 in the mix

00:29:19.720 which is kids

00:29:20.360 and nobody wants

00:29:21.260 to look at what

00:29:21.760 happens to them

00:29:22.340 20 years down the line

00:29:23.480 when they're adults

00:29:24.140 and I think,

00:29:25.480 yeah,

00:29:25.840 it might take

00:29:27.780 another 20 years

00:29:28.560 for people

00:29:28.920 to figure out

00:29:29.460 that there is

00:29:29.880 actually a marked

00:29:30.480 difference

00:29:30.800 but I think

00:29:31.180 eventually

00:29:31.600 we'll have

00:29:32.900 enough data

00:29:33.460 and somebody

00:29:34.180 will have

00:29:34.500 the balls

00:29:34.880 to pass it

00:29:35.480 and somebody

00:29:35.780 will have

00:29:36.020 the balls

00:29:36.400 to do the studies.

00:29:37.760 I mean,

00:29:37.960 I think,

00:29:39.400 for example,

00:29:40.120 it will be

00:29:40.480 empirically researchable

00:29:41.840 to establish

00:29:44.920 whether or not

00:29:45.600 there's any kind

00:29:46.160 of a link

00:29:46.540 between

00:29:47.080 an experience

00:29:49.480 of a lot

00:29:50.040 of early infant

00:29:51.720 daycare

00:29:52.240 and extreme

00:29:53.400 dysregulated

00:29:54.080 wokeness

00:29:54.480 by the time

00:29:54.960 you get to

00:29:55.340 young adulthood

00:29:55.960 which seems

00:29:57.100 to me

00:29:57.340 completely plausible

00:29:58.080 because I trained

00:29:59.620 once upon a time

00:30:00.300 as a psychotherapist

00:30:01.180 and we did

00:30:05.720 a fair amount

00:30:06.260 on attachment

00:30:06.840 and disordered

00:30:08.060 attachment

00:30:08.460 and so on

00:30:08.960 and so forth

00:30:09.420 and to me,

00:30:10.840 just leaving us

00:30:11.420 never mind

00:30:12.020 what they're saying

00:30:12.760 never mind

00:30:13.260 what's coming

00:30:14.040 out of their

00:30:14.480 mouths

00:30:14.800 in terms

00:30:15.320 of third

00:30:15.980 rate

00:30:16.540 cult

00:30:17.760 platitudes

00:30:18.400 what those

00:30:20.220 kids mostly

00:30:20.880 look like

00:30:21.360 to me

00:30:21.820 is

00:30:22.300 the product

00:30:25.360 of long-term

00:30:26.140 low-key

00:30:26.500 neglect

00:30:26.960 long-term

00:30:29.480 low-key

00:30:30.100 nurture

00:30:31.560 deprivation

00:30:32.240 maternal

00:30:32.540 deprivation

00:30:33.040 fundamentally

00:30:33.560 and that

00:30:35.240 might seem

00:30:35.620 counterintuitive

00:30:36.320 when we're

00:30:36.640 talking about

00:30:37.060 children in

00:30:37.500 wealthy families

00:30:38.140 but again

00:30:38.580 a lot of

00:30:39.300 wealthy families

00:30:40.460 have both

00:30:41.080 parents working

00:30:41.780 because otherwise

00:30:43.240 how are they

00:30:44.120 ever going to

00:30:44.440 afford

00:30:44.760 house number

00:30:45.520 three

00:30:45.780 and the

00:30:46.280 college bills

00:30:46.840 etc.

00:30:47.220 so I think

00:30:49.400 it's eminently

00:30:50.660 plausible

00:30:51.140 that there's

00:30:51.720 a raft

00:30:52.480 of extremely

00:30:54.160 neglected

00:30:54.580 children at

00:30:55.120 the top

00:30:55.440 and at

00:30:55.640 the bottom

00:30:56.160 emotionally

00:30:58.420 under-mothered

00:31:00.640 I think you

00:31:01.040 could say

00:31:01.400 radically

00:31:01.880 under-mothered

00:31:02.520 children

00:31:02.880 pretty much

00:31:03.620 across the

00:31:04.100 spectrum

00:31:04.400 but probably

00:31:05.860 concentrated at

00:31:07.140 the top

00:31:07.420 and the bottom

00:31:07.880 for different

00:31:08.280 reasons

00:31:08.720 and that's

00:31:10.500 part of what's

00:31:11.400 driving for

00:31:11.880 example the

00:31:12.400 George Floyd

00:31:12.880 riots but

00:31:13.420 also the

00:31:14.100 regular

00:31:15.100 chimpouts

00:31:15.560 at universities

00:31:16.200 and nobody

00:31:17.900 wants to

00:31:18.400 look at

00:31:18.660 this

00:31:18.980 across the

00:31:20.640 political

00:31:20.900 spectrum

00:31:21.280 because it

00:31:21.700 just stands

00:31:22.140 on too

00:31:22.900 many toes

00:31:23.360 like you

00:31:24.620 said it

00:31:25.660 really

00:31:26.320 strikes at

00:31:27.740 some fundamental

00:31:29.580 pillars that

00:31:30.560 would if

00:31:31.100 taken out

00:31:31.900 would disassemble

00:31:33.080 what people

00:31:34.980 look at as

00:31:35.620 our current

00:31:36.440 social situation

00:31:37.460 I think you're

00:31:38.400 right that this

00:31:38.960 is a huge

00:31:40.320 problem but

00:31:41.300 I'm less

00:31:42.460 optimistic about

00:31:43.920 the possibility

00:31:44.920 that data

00:31:45.700 will shift

00:31:46.620 anyone's

00:31:47.320 mind

00:31:48.120 we really

00:31:48.820 don't

00:31:49.400 suffer from

00:31:51.900 a lack

00:31:53.020 of social

00:31:53.880 science data

00:31:54.660 on a lot

00:31:55.360 of issues

00:31:55.920 that just

00:31:57.140 don't shift

00:31:57.780 anything

00:31:58.320 in fact we

00:31:59.880 regularly have

00:32:00.380 to bury

00:32:00.760 social science

00:32:01.720 to make sure

00:32:02.600 that we can

00:32:02.980 continue on

00:32:04.300 with the

00:32:05.260 delusions

00:32:06.000 we've drawn

00:32:07.200 around certain

00:32:07.980 subjects

00:32:08.640 and so I

00:32:09.820 think it's

00:32:10.520 unfortunate

00:32:11.360 I think you're

00:32:12.120 right that the

00:32:12.500 data will bear

00:32:13.060 this out

00:32:13.480 I think it

00:32:14.160 absolutely

00:32:14.540 will but I

00:32:15.580 just don't

00:32:15.840 think that'll

00:32:16.180 shift people's

00:32:16.660 opinion because

00:32:17.220 we're going to

00:32:18.240 shift our mode

00:32:18.720 of production

00:32:19.240 are people

00:32:19.800 going to start

00:32:20.640 taking more

00:32:21.280 responsibility

00:32:21.940 are people

00:32:22.620 going to start

00:32:23.020 accounting for

00:32:23.900 things that can't

00:32:25.080 be put on

00:32:25.580 spreadsheets I

00:32:26.480 think you're

00:32:27.320 really going to

00:32:27.600 have to see

00:32:28.020 some things

00:32:28.780 really hit the

00:32:29.700 wall hard

00:32:30.300 before anyone

00:32:31.480 kind of learns

00:32:32.260 those lessons

00:32:33.520 unfortunately

00:32:34.360 but they

00:32:35.720 certainly will

00:32:36.320 come which I

00:32:37.300 guess kind of

00:32:38.020 leads me to my

00:32:39.500 next question

00:32:40.220 can people

00:32:42.540 or I guess

00:32:44.780 well you know

00:32:45.620 two levels of

00:32:46.540 this can

00:32:46.860 individuals make

00:32:47.660 these decisions

00:32:48.640 and can societies

00:32:49.720 make these

00:32:50.180 decisions can

00:32:51.340 they look at

00:32:52.480 where we're at

00:32:53.580 see kind of

00:32:54.660 the terrible

00:32:55.440 implications of

00:32:56.880 where we're

00:32:57.240 going and

00:32:58.280 actively choose

00:32:59.880 to walk away

00:33:01.200 from certain

00:33:02.540 pieces of

00:33:03.080 technology certain

00:33:04.460 things that they

00:33:05.620 think of as

00:33:06.060 liberating but

00:33:07.140 you know kind of

00:33:08.320 put us on the

00:33:08.880 course to where

00:33:09.500 we are now

00:33:10.000 I mean the

00:33:10.620 things that

00:33:11.000 you're talking

00:33:11.400 about would

00:33:11.920 basically the

00:33:14.160 changes that

00:33:14.660 would need to

00:33:15.060 be made would

00:33:16.340 impact both

00:33:17.080 left and right

00:33:17.920 goals in very

00:33:19.500 negative ways

00:33:20.760 the left would

00:33:21.800 have to

00:33:22.520 acknowledge that

00:33:23.920 you know women

00:33:24.760 can't have it

00:33:25.540 all that they

00:33:26.880 you know that

00:33:27.400 there are

00:33:28.260 responsibilities and

00:33:29.540 ties that have

00:33:30.860 to exist and

00:33:32.700 that certain

00:33:33.160 sacrifices and

00:33:34.240 autonomy have to

00:33:35.100 be made and

00:33:36.120 the right would

00:33:36.720 have to admit

00:33:37.660 that you know

00:33:39.280 there will be

00:33:40.160 an economic

00:33:40.780 impact for

00:33:42.160 this kind of

00:33:42.760 stuff sacrifices

00:33:43.940 have to be

00:33:44.780 made GDP can't

00:33:46.240 be the driver of

00:33:47.140 all decisions and

00:33:48.640 they'd have to

00:33:49.160 admit that we

00:33:49.960 have to dedicate

00:33:50.880 a certain segment

00:33:51.780 of our society

00:33:52.660 to actually

00:33:53.500 producing the

00:33:54.780 type of families

00:33:55.460 that we pretend

00:33:56.060 like we want to

00:33:56.640 see

00:33:56.900 I'd probably

00:33:59.780 share your

00:34:00.240 pessimism that

00:34:01.920 would be that

00:34:02.820 is the short

00:34:03.340 answer I mean

00:34:04.500 it hasn't

00:34:05.260 happened yet put

00:34:05.960 it that way but

00:34:07.020 but that said I

00:34:08.120 mean cultures

00:34:10.100 change slowly and

00:34:11.320 then all at once

00:34:12.080 right you know

00:34:13.400 and I think my

00:34:15.100 hunch is it will

00:34:15.960 change probably not

00:34:16.980 in our lifetimes you

00:34:18.020 know you and I

00:34:18.480 will still be raging

00:34:19.220 about all of this

00:34:19.980 in 20 30 40

00:34:21.560 years time you

00:34:22.500 know if there's an

00:34:23.500 internet still at that

00:34:24.360 point I mean if

00:34:24.900 there isn't you know

00:34:25.480 we'll be somewhere

00:34:26.540 quite different

00:34:26.980 anyway but

00:34:28.500 cultures change

00:34:29.420 slowly and then

00:34:30.060 all at once

00:34:30.640 and what's

00:34:33.460 what's most

00:34:34.060 likely will be

00:34:36.260 that it just

00:34:37.120 becomes rapidly

00:34:38.280 apparent that

00:34:39.500 the the only

00:34:40.720 people the only

00:34:41.560 the only subsets

00:34:42.620 of the culture

00:34:43.160 which are capable

00:34:43.840 of reproducing

00:34:44.520 themselves in any

00:34:45.360 meaningful way

00:34:46.220 are the ones who

00:34:47.200 figured out how

00:34:48.060 to how to buck

00:34:48.760 some of these

00:34:49.160 trends and how

00:34:50.680 to how to how

00:34:52.400 to transmit how

00:34:53.160 to transmit healthy

00:34:54.420 personhood of some

00:34:56.000 kind and healthy

00:34:56.820 healthy social and

00:34:59.140 child rearing norms

00:35:00.180 down the generations

00:35:01.040 and that's not going

00:35:02.140 to be everybody you

00:35:03.180 know certainly not on

00:35:04.040 current trends it's

00:35:05.000 not going to be

00:35:05.420 everybody but but

00:35:08.700 chances are it'll be

00:35:09.540 some people and and

00:35:10.940 those those will be

00:35:11.760 hopefully at least

00:35:12.860 those those will be

00:35:13.740 the the means that

00:35:15.100 that that perpetuate

00:35:16.620 with the genes you

00:35:18.560 know the I mean you

00:35:19.500 know there's there's a

00:35:20.200 whole a whole load of

00:35:20.900 bumps and you know

00:35:21.440 there's a whole there

00:35:22.580 there are too many

00:35:23.080 variables really to

00:35:24.000 be able to predict

00:35:24.580 with any with any

00:35:25.760 confidence but I think

00:35:28.200 eventually people will

00:35:29.340 figure it out and

00:35:29.940 they'll figure out that

00:35:30.660 actually there are there

00:35:31.820 are limits that you

00:35:32.480 can't go beyond either

00:35:33.480 in the name of personal

00:35:34.460 autonomy or in the name

00:35:35.820 of making the line go

00:35:36.680 up and that in fact

00:35:37.900 we're pretty much at

00:35:39.020 those limits already I

00:35:40.580 mean that's that's

00:35:41.160 certainly my read on

00:35:41.960 where we are now you

00:35:43.420 know we've reached the

00:35:44.280 point where we're

00:35:45.200 trying we're trying to

00:35:45.940 bust out of the limits

00:35:46.880 of we're trying to

00:35:49.540 sever the link between

00:35:50.260 mothers and babies which

00:35:51.340 is just nuts I mean

00:35:52.860 the the idea that you

00:35:53.760 can do that and still

00:35:54.640 be producing people I

00:35:56.940 mean the the the

00:35:58.900 point the point where

00:35:59.760 you're where you're

00:36:00.200 producing human gametes

00:36:01.620 which don't have a

00:36:02.640 mother or a father and

00:36:04.400 they're like oh no no

00:36:05.300 of course we're not

00:36:05.900 going to turn those

00:36:06.380 into actual babies I

00:36:07.180 mean this was a

00:36:07.600 headline this week it's

00:36:08.460 probably it's probably

00:36:09.400 crossed your radar

00:36:10.280 they've they figured

00:36:11.440 out how to how to

00:36:12.280 create synthetic

00:36:13.140 embryos that would

00:36:14.260 that do not originate

00:36:16.060 from from the gametes

00:36:17.300 of of live human men

00:36:19.080 and women and they're

00:36:19.960 like oh we're just

00:36:20.560 going to create them

00:36:21.040 for experiments and

00:36:21.760 we're not going to

00:36:22.100 grow actual babies

00:36:22.800 from them honest we're

00:36:23.560 not and you're like

00:36:24.640 well okay but

00:36:26.620 eventually somebody

00:36:27.920 will because you know

00:36:28.820 there's there's there's

00:36:29.680 going to be somebody

00:36:30.200 who'll do it just

00:36:30.660 because they can and

00:36:32.040 then I mean we can

00:36:33.700 only speculate at

00:36:34.660 what what it will what

00:36:35.620 it would be like

00:36:36.140 growing up as a

00:36:36.760 person with literally

00:36:37.640 no mother and father

00:36:38.460 even at the genetic

00:36:39.180 level but but there

00:36:41.680 comes a point where

00:36:42.720 you where you slice you

00:36:44.060 slice human normal down

00:36:45.240 to the point where

00:36:45.880 you're just not you're

00:36:46.600 not a human anymore

00:36:47.560 and you're not producing

00:36:48.480 humans and you're not

00:36:49.280 what you what you're

00:36:49.940 you're working with

00:36:50.620 something something

00:36:51.320 much more protein

00:36:52.320 and and I think I

00:36:54.240 think we're pretty

00:36:54.660 much already at that

00:36:55.700 limit you know in a

00:36:56.820 in a functional social

00:36:58.260 at the functional social

00:36:59.520 level when it comes to

00:37:00.980 dismantling the basic

00:37:02.500 givens of the human of

00:37:04.040 the of the intimate

00:37:05.200 social fabric certainly

00:37:06.680 and and I think people

00:37:10.160 are beginning to realize

00:37:11.000 that the it the people

00:37:12.260 that the group that

00:37:13.320 pays the price is always

00:37:14.420 children you know who

00:37:16.540 are who are the

00:37:17.180 shoulders with least able

00:37:18.400 to carry it you know if

00:37:19.600 you're if you're

00:37:20.100 reordering the the

00:37:21.280 fabric of human nature

00:37:22.340 to suit adult desire

00:37:23.320 it's always children who

00:37:24.260 pay the price event

00:37:25.260 ultimately you might say

00:37:26.580 oh it's women but

00:37:27.260 actually really if you if

00:37:28.440 you if you do the final

00:37:30.140 accounting it's always

00:37:30.840 children yeah because

00:37:32.600 whether they're sacrificing

00:37:34.940 mother love and nurture

00:37:36.600 so that so that their

00:37:39.380 mothers can be

00:37:40.080 emancipated either to make

00:37:41.200 rent or to self-actualize

00:37:42.380 depending on social class

00:37:43.500 or whether it's your

00:37:44.780 babies who are being

00:37:45.700 separated from their

00:37:46.680 gestational mother at

00:37:47.620 birth so they can be

00:37:48.380 handed to chloe

00:37:48.940 kardashian who then

00:37:49.820 basically ignores them

00:37:50.780 for for six months

00:37:52.380 until she gets her

00:37:53.060 heading gear or whatever

00:37:54.540 yeah that it's children

00:37:58.500 who pay the price

00:37:59.080 yeah I think that's

00:38:01.560 absolutely true because

00:38:02.600 there's just no there's

00:38:04.460 no accounting for what's

00:38:05.480 going to happen next

00:38:06.160 especially when those

00:38:06.900 kind of when those

00:38:08.020 changes are are kind of

00:38:09.720 in the works everyone

00:38:10.980 just kind of assumes

00:38:11.860 that children will kind

00:38:12.760 of move along with it

00:38:13.660 that everything will be

00:38:14.460 fine but it's amazing

00:38:16.120 kind of how prescient

00:38:17.100 uh c.s lewis was in

00:38:19.200 the abolition of man

00:38:20.100 just kind of looking at

00:38:21.280 how social engineering

00:38:22.840 would would eventually

00:38:24.360 just kind of completely

00:38:25.640 erase the baseline of

00:38:27.540 of human nature or it

00:38:29.060 could though I think

00:38:29.920 you're right that we're

00:38:30.680 we're getting to the

00:38:31.760 edge of that and it's

00:38:32.580 weird how everyone

00:38:33.320 that every totalitarian

00:38:34.480 regime eventually just

00:38:35.540 comes to the same

00:38:36.240 conclusion that we need

00:38:37.460 to create motherless

00:38:38.380 children it is it is

00:38:40.780 amazing how often that

00:38:41.900 that is uh you know

00:38:43.880 the natural kind of

00:38:45.100 evolution of the

00:38:46.340 centralization of power

00:38:47.460 it's not it's not

00:38:48.380 really that surprising

00:38:50.180 because I mean

00:38:51.180 ultimately if you want

00:38:52.240 to create the kind of

00:38:53.660 the kind of absolute

00:38:54.940 state that that admits

00:38:57.480 of no relationships at

00:38:58.900 all except that between

00:39:00.160 the individual and the

00:39:01.360 total state then you

00:39:02.880 have to you you have to

00:39:04.220 obliterate relationality as

00:39:05.820 such right and and the

00:39:07.900 original the the first and

00:39:09.380 original template for

00:39:10.480 relationality is the one

00:39:11.660 between mother and baby

00:39:12.440 and that that's that's

00:39:13.980 the first merged

00:39:15.140 interpersonal relationship

00:39:16.380 it's it's the original

00:39:17.780 one from which all of

00:39:18.800 the others then then

00:39:19.680 emerge and differentiate

00:39:20.540 so so of course of course

00:39:22.340 you want to create

00:39:23.000 motherless children

00:39:23.740 because motherless

00:39:24.740 children have nobody

00:39:25.480 looking out for them

00:39:26.200 when they're babies so

00:39:27.000 they can be formed in

00:39:27.800 any way you you care to

00:39:28.940 form them um and they

00:39:30.540 and they have no template

00:39:31.580 for what being loved

00:39:32.360 looks like so you can

00:39:33.560 you can ask them to do

00:39:34.720 anything in return for

00:39:35.800 scraps of whatever yeah

00:39:37.700 it's it stands to reason

00:39:39.220 of course it does

00:39:39.860 yeah i think it's i think

00:39:43.540 it's a it's a difficult

00:39:44.680 thing again like you

00:39:45.540 said it's a it's a

00:39:46.500 bridge it's a problem

00:39:48.100 that is uh kind of a

00:39:50.600 slow-moving train wreck

00:39:51.800 and no one can really

00:39:53.720 create a coalition to

00:39:55.400 stop it because again

00:39:56.360 it attacks kind of the

00:39:57.920 basis of of both sides

00:39:59.700 you know that every part

00:40:01.480 of the society that has

00:40:02.780 a significant hold on

00:40:04.320 power has every incentive

00:40:06.220 to kind of completely

00:40:07.400 ignore the problem uh

00:40:09.120 despite kind of all the

00:40:10.380 the evidence that this

00:40:11.480 is going to continue

00:40:12.580 do you see i guess we've

00:40:14.660 already kind of talked

00:40:15.360 about how neither of us

00:40:16.280 are particularly uh

00:40:17.860 optimistic on the

00:40:19.160 short-term prospects

00:40:20.200 we do actually have one

00:40:21.420 tiny note of optimism

00:40:22.600 oh great good

00:40:23.480 paradoxically it's

00:40:25.080 mediated by technology

00:40:26.140 i should i should make

00:40:27.360 it clear i'm by no means

00:40:28.840 in every way a tech

00:40:30.300 skeptic i do i do think

00:40:31.940 the only way out is

00:40:32.740 through um you know we

00:40:34.240 can't we uncle ted was

00:40:35.760 wrong about that

00:40:36.460 unfortunately so i

00:40:37.860 shouldn't say you know i

00:40:38.620 didn't say you know

00:40:39.500 uncle ted was wrong um

00:40:41.000 he we're not going to be

00:40:42.260 able to unplug any of

00:40:43.340 this stuff we're not we

00:40:44.140 you can't go back there's

00:40:45.080 no there's no there's no

00:40:46.160 return there just isn't

00:40:47.400 um but we but but we

00:40:51.200 have we have to go and

00:40:52.240 the only way out is

00:40:53.020 through um and one one

00:40:54.920 positive development um

00:40:57.120 actually in in my corner

00:40:58.640 of things which is which is

00:41:00.000 the women's movement i

00:41:00.900 guess one one one

00:41:02.260 structural change which has

00:41:03.880 been brought about more

00:41:04.840 than anything by the

00:41:05.900 internet is that mothers

00:41:07.560 get a say in feminism for

00:41:09.040 pretty much the first time

00:41:10.400 since since the early

00:41:11.640 20th century yeah but up

00:41:14.440 to the at the point where

00:41:15.660 where the the editor where

00:41:16.780 campaigning was for the

00:41:17.660 vote there were a great

00:41:18.720 many mothers involved but

00:41:19.820 from the second wave

00:41:20.580 onwards they were pretty

00:41:22.060 much structurally excluded

00:41:23.260 in it you know so so much

00:41:25.280 so in fact that it was the

00:41:26.980 movement was to a great

00:41:28.320 extent about being anything

00:41:29.380 except a mother i mean

00:41:30.780 shulamith firestone

00:41:31.780 fantasized about the the

00:41:33.260 ultimate emancipation of

00:41:34.500 women being the point at

00:41:35.420 which gestation could

00:41:36.280 happen in in a piece of

00:41:37.740 technology and thereby

00:41:39.340 liberate women from from

00:41:40.900 the the basic fact of

00:41:43.200 being female and i mean

00:41:44.360 she kind of got her wish

00:41:45.240 although it didn't really

00:41:46.040 work out quite as

00:41:47.140 emancipated as she thought

00:41:49.860 it would you know is it

00:41:51.360 yeah it didn't it didn't

00:41:52.080 quite work out as she was

00:41:53.040 expecting but we're kind of

00:41:54.780 mostly there but um but

00:41:57.640 but one of the one of the

00:41:58.420 things technology has done

00:41:59.640 actually in response to the

00:42:00.840 way women have been

00:42:01.720 emancipated quote unquote

00:42:02.940 more recently from even

00:42:04.420 needing to be female um

00:42:06.180 what one of the one of the

00:42:07.740 made major groups pushing

00:42:08.940 back against that has been

00:42:09.880 mothers because we know

00:42:11.460 perfect you know anybody

00:42:12.360 who's grown and grown a

00:42:13.420 human in their literal

00:42:14.380 entrails knows perfectly

00:42:15.580 well what woman is right

00:42:16.820 and and we also know what

00:42:18.640 the temp you know we also

00:42:19.600 understand that basic that

00:42:21.100 fundamental template for

00:42:22.140 relationality and and

00:42:23.780 whereas whereas back in the

00:42:25.960 day um i remember reading a

00:42:28.260 bitterly ironic piece in an

00:42:29.720 in a radical feminist

00:42:30.780 anthology from the 90s

00:42:32.400 about a feminist group that

00:42:34.020 that had taken a vote on

00:42:35.480 whether or not to include a

00:42:36.520 crash in their women's

00:42:37.420 center and and the the move

00:42:39.060 had been voted down because

00:42:40.240 all of the feminists who are

00:42:41.720 mothers weren't able to show

00:42:42.740 up because they had kids to

00:42:43.700 look after and that that's

00:42:45.100 the basic problem right right

00:42:46.680 you know there's a there's a

00:42:48.520 set of voices which are

00:42:49.500 structurally excluded because

00:42:50.640 they're just busy um and

00:42:52.320 thanks to the internet that's

00:42:53.560 just not nearly as much the

00:42:54.980 case as it used to be there

00:42:56.040 are a lot of mothers who are

00:42:57.460 scrolling while doing five

00:42:58.680 other things as mothers

00:42:59.540 generally are and who are

00:43:01.020 tweeting and who are

00:43:01.700 mobilizing and and pretty

00:43:03.480 much the entirety of the of

00:43:05.220 the of turf island began as a

00:43:07.920 as a as a room on mumsnet i

00:43:10.400 mean it's a great deal more

00:43:11.260 than that now and it's you

00:43:12.180 know it's spawned

00:43:12.800 internationally notorious

00:43:13.860 figures such as posy parker

00:43:15.020 but but posy parker was a

00:43:16.400 mumsnetter that's where she

00:43:17.400 got her handle from yeah and

00:43:18.940 there's so there's an entire

00:43:20.440 that and and there and i see

00:43:22.100 it i see it coming through i

00:43:23.340 said there's a whole a whole

00:43:24.860 swathe of women who are

00:43:26.260 mothers and who also think and

00:43:27.940 who also take an interest in

00:43:29.000 these questions and who see

00:43:30.620 and who see the defense of

00:43:31.980 children and the defense of

00:43:33.460 women as mothers as being

00:43:35.300 absolutely central to to the

00:43:37.580 women's movement now in a way

00:43:38.640 which was just structurally

00:43:39.600 impossible even back in the

00:43:41.000 1990s and i and to me that's

00:43:42.860 an incredibly positive

00:43:43.620 development and it's one of

00:43:44.600 the way the ways in which

00:43:46.160 technology might be a way

00:43:47.220 through as well as being a

00:43:48.960 whole concatenating series of

00:43:50.800 disasters yeah you you are kind

00:43:52.820 of through the other side of

00:43:53.960 this thing where you know

00:43:55.340 everybody was sold this lie

00:43:57.300 but particularly women that

00:43:58.560 there would be this progress

00:44:00.240 you know there'd be this

00:44:01.120 liberation uh you you all bonds

00:44:03.720 could be severed all

00:44:04.660 responsibilities could be

00:44:05.960 taken off of your shoulders

00:44:07.380 everything could be alienated

00:44:09.260 and what we've learned really

00:44:11.780 is that that's a lie you can

00:44:14.460 completely liberate yourself from

00:44:16.340 traditional bonds but you'll

00:44:17.900 simply receive a whole new set of

00:44:19.820 shackles and you'll also be uh

00:44:22.620 you'll also lose all of the

00:44:24.740 protections that those bonds

00:44:26.120 once created all of those

00:44:28.200 things that you know shielded

00:44:29.580 your children uh shielded you uh

00:44:32.060 from kind of the ravages of

00:44:33.620 things that maybe didn't

00:44:34.940 understand once once kind of

00:44:36.620 those things are gone and so i

00:44:38.500 think there is a like you said

00:44:39.820 there is a growing ability of

00:44:41.820 women who now understand the

00:44:44.120 value of those things to have a

00:44:45.460 voice in that discussion to

00:44:46.880 understand that you know taking

00:44:48.940 care of women means

00:44:50.380 understanding that some of

00:44:51.900 these things were there for

00:44:53.780 their protection some of those

00:44:54.960 things were there for the

00:44:55.880 protection of their children

00:44:56.840 some of those things exist you

00:44:59.180 know that there is no there is

00:45:02.060 no just free you know there's no

00:45:03.520 such thing as a free lunch you

00:45:04.700 don't just get to trade all these

00:45:05.920 things in and just be completely

00:45:08.060 liberated that in fact actually a

00:45:10.720 more fulfilling existence might

00:45:12.620 happen inside certain confines and

00:45:15.200 that is of course again as true for

00:45:17.000 men as women you know men have

00:45:18.380 also been lied to about you know

00:45:20.120 you you don't need a family you

00:45:21.260 don't need this stuff there's all

00:45:22.180 the you know there's all these

00:45:23.140 uh you know get rid of these

00:45:24.500 duties and responsibilities uh

00:45:26.420 play the field forever you'll

00:45:27.680 you'll never you'll never uh end

00:45:29.220 up paying any kind of uh

00:45:30.800 he was advising guys to get a

00:45:33.040 vasectomy in your 20s and then

00:45:34.400 spend all spend your life earning

00:45:36.240 money and having empty sex

00:45:37.720 right i have no idea if anybody

00:45:39.660 listens to rollo tomasti but i i

00:45:41.280 looked i was like what what really

00:45:43.800 but yeah but there's no shortage of

00:45:45.960 this kind of advice and so i think

00:45:47.540 there's um i think there really is

00:45:49.760 you're right that there is the

00:45:51.100 good news is that there's this

00:45:52.280 opportunity for many people have

00:45:54.600 learned this lesson and again you

00:45:55.860 see so i think that's probably why

00:45:57.760 you see you know on both sides like

00:46:00.160 you said you see these uh women who

00:46:02.080 might have been part of the

00:46:03.000 feminist movement or would have

00:46:04.140 been shut out of the feminist

00:46:04.980 movement now having a voice about

00:46:06.820 you know why motherhood and these

00:46:08.400 things matter you also have these

00:46:10.080 guys around that's the other thing

00:46:11.960 you know if you want so if you

00:46:13.360 want to get something done give it

00:46:14.920 to a mum who's got to get it done

00:46:16.220 before before the school run

00:46:17.540 seriously um i mean america's

00:46:20.140 newest hate group mums for liberty

00:46:21.900 right that's exactly right yeah yeah

00:46:24.700 lose lose your banking privileges

00:46:26.180 you're the new extremists

00:46:27.340 congratulations right

00:46:28.440 these are literally like carpooling

00:46:32.620 sandwich making you know uh school

00:46:35.540 gate mums is completely insane but

00:46:37.580 they're incredibly effective and and

00:46:40.060 because they really care you know

00:46:41.940 they've properly got skin in the

00:46:43.200 game they understand what's at stake

00:46:45.080 and they're mums so they get shit

00:46:46.280 done yep and you also you also have

00:46:48.920 this phenomenon on the other side

00:46:50.260 of kind of these men's right

00:46:51.400 activists or these uh these pickup

00:46:53.640 artist guys who are kind of get to

00:46:56.080 the end of this chase and they

00:46:57.700 realize you know they find god they

00:46:59.900 have a family like the you know

00:47:01.180 they there's they're just i think

00:47:02.820 it's a pipeline now isn't it it's

00:47:04.540 incredible i'm sorry yeah it's a

00:47:06.400 pipeline absolutely 100 percent and

00:47:08.380 so yeah you you kind of at the

00:47:10.320 bottom of this you know at the

00:47:12.040 bottom of that uh uh that bottle of

00:47:14.520 red pills is kind of the final is

00:47:16.540 kind of that final pill which is oh

00:47:18.880 actually a somewhat traditional

00:47:21.160 existence with inside bonds of duty

00:47:23.460 and commitment is actually the thing

00:47:25.340 that will give my life meaning

00:47:27.080 really tested this to destruction i've

00:47:29.540 finally i've taken the gold pill and

00:47:31.460 you know and now you can buy my new

00:47:32.920 lecture series

00:47:33.580 well i mean if you don't get to hock it

00:47:37.180 on twitter then well you know what did

00:47:38.560 you even go through the life

00:47:39.360 experience yeah no that's right but

00:47:40.900 equally you know

00:47:41.560 everyone loves a story of redemption

00:47:44.960 and

00:47:45.580 yeah no i think i think they resonate

00:47:49.940 because a lot of people are on these

00:47:51.500 tracks it's a it's something that a lot

00:47:52.880 of people are feeling simultaneously

00:47:54.300 yeah yeah but yeah i think if there's

00:47:56.860 if there's one positive there's a one

00:47:59.040 one positive avenue it's that it's

00:48:01.080 that the mums the mums are organized

00:48:02.460 and they're getting more organized and

00:48:04.320 and and the mums know what time it is

00:48:06.080 you know to a growing a growing subset

00:48:08.340 of the m of mothers know what time it

00:48:10.000 is

00:48:10.220 and and they're taking taking action

00:48:12.640 accordingly and and and politicians

00:48:15.700 notice pretty quickly you know when when

00:48:17.920 when when a country's mothers are

00:48:20.100 mobilized against you you're in trouble

00:48:22.900 because at the end of the day mums set

00:48:26.260 the moral tone

00:48:26.820 not just not just for now and not just

00:48:29.700 you know in amongst amongst communities

00:48:31.820 in general but for the next generation as

00:48:33.560 well you know unless you can extract their

00:48:35.700 children from them at the age of two

00:48:36.880 weeks and and and and you know educate

00:48:38.980 them within a totalitarian in safetyist

00:48:41.500 environment obviously but you know to to

00:48:43.440 the extent that that mothers resist that

00:48:45.560 they they should they they form the morals

00:48:47.220 of the next generation and yeah and if

00:48:50.320 they hate you you're in trouble so yeah so

00:48:52.480 once once mothers begin to once they use

00:48:55.280 use the internet to mobilize there's a

00:48:57.360 there's some there's some hope i think

00:48:58.920 yeah yeah i think you're right like we i can

00:49:01.200 deal out uh one more piece of optimism for

00:49:03.080 everybody here you know a lot of people

00:49:04.320 like to talk about elite theory they like

00:49:06.300 to say that okay i understand these things

00:49:08.620 kind of happen top down uh but they don't

00:49:11.100 really think about the implications you're

00:49:12.440 absolutely right that of course you know a

00:49:14.200 lot of people complain about the awful right

00:49:15.800 the the affluent uh white female liberal

00:49:18.760 because they because they have this innate

00:49:21.460 ability to kind of reinforce the standards of

00:49:24.240 the society and if the standards of the

00:49:27.060 society are currently hideous and destructive

00:49:30.120 then yeah it seems like these are your

00:49:32.240 enemy but they're not your enemy these

00:49:34.120 are people who are just doing their job

00:49:35.600 they're the the the social antibodies of

00:49:38.140 the system and so that's just what women

00:49:40.780 have always done where women set the

00:49:42.060 moral tone i mean it's it's it's as

00:49:44.120 evident in in 19th century literature and

00:49:47.300 history as it is in the in in 20th and

00:49:49.900 and and it's yeah it's always the same

00:49:51.800 picture that's just that's just what

00:49:53.060 women do at scale and so if you have

00:49:55.840 women who are making the only problem is

00:49:57.400 that it's ordered to the wrong the wrong

00:49:58.860 set of morals exactly but if you can

00:50:01.620 social ones but if you can get that flip

00:50:04.000 you know if you can get the movement

00:50:05.340 you're talking about where mothers

00:50:06.640 realize oh wait no this is terrible for

00:50:09.120 me and this is terrible for my children

00:50:10.880 and this is something that i have to

00:50:13.480 work against because if i don't it's

00:50:14.820 going to destroy the future of my

00:50:16.920 children then all of a sudden you can

00:50:18.820 get that uh that change in a very

00:50:20.800 dynamic way because of the uh thing

00:50:23.620 you're talking about here yeah and i

00:50:25.520 think what what needs to be spelled out

00:50:27.860 again and again and again is that it's

00:50:30.720 always children who pay the price

00:50:31.760 absolutely without fail and i we have

00:50:34.120 we we just need to tell that story we

00:50:36.680 just need to show the receipts i mean

00:50:38.260 it's it's clear enough to anybody who's

00:50:39.760 paying attention but that but that that

00:50:41.820 message just needs to be very much

00:50:44.380 clearer and very much more front and

00:50:45.660 center it's always the children who pay

00:50:47.060 the price you know when you set out to

00:50:48.960 destroy human nature you know the the it's

00:50:51.520 the littlest shoulders who bear the

00:50:52.980 biggest load and that's just not how it

00:50:55.260 should be absolutely all right guys so

00:50:57.980 before we move over to the questions of

00:51:00.440 the people mary can you let everyone

00:51:02.600 know where to find your stuff where they

00:51:04.300 can find your book everything they need

00:51:05.660 sure the the book is feminism against

00:51:08.260 progress i imagine most of your viewers

00:51:10.780 are in the united states there it's

00:51:12.200 published with regnery books

00:51:13.420 um i can be found at reactionary

00:51:16.460 feminist on substack or at moving

00:51:18.560 circles on twitter and i'm the

00:51:19.860 contributing editor at unheard which i

00:51:21.560 think some americans at least read it's

00:51:23.600 a daily current affairs and politics

00:51:25.640 uh digital magazine based in the united

00:51:28.160 kingdom where i write a weekly column

00:51:29.580 excellent all right guys let's go ahead

00:51:32.420 and check out your questions we got one

00:51:35.140 here from creeper weirdo for five dollars

00:51:36.980 thank you very much sir all a while back

00:51:39.220 i told my younger brother about the site

00:51:41.860 redux and that there is such a thing as

00:51:44.080 reactionary feminism what a difference

00:51:46.840 some years make yeah that that would have

00:51:50.040 sounded a very odd thing i'm sure to to

00:51:51.980 most people it still is i guess a little

00:51:53.640 bit uh to some people but i think

00:51:55.960 again i think that's kind of the i think

00:51:58.240 that was a very clever uh turn of phrase

00:52:00.100 uh for your book title because it really

00:52:02.380 does give people an understanding of

00:52:04.660 looking at female well-being from a

00:52:07.620 position uh that many people would have

00:52:09.920 understood perhaps as reactionary but i

00:52:12.180 think is really essential if you're going

00:52:15.280 to address the problems that women and men

00:52:17.280 are facing today well yeah i mean if if the

00:52:19.860 progressive project is just making life

00:52:22.320 measurably and obviously worse for the

00:52:24.480 majority of women then the obvious place

00:52:27.320 for a feminist to stand is against progress

00:52:29.120 i mean duh i mean great reactionary

00:52:32.960 feminism actually it kind of started as a

00:52:34.500 meme on my twitter bio and then i had to

00:52:36.480 i had to kind of back rationalize what it

00:52:38.700 was that i actually meant by it because

00:52:40.520 a very serious magazine wrote to me and said

00:52:43.180 well what do you mean by it so then i had to

00:52:45.040 work it out and that kind of yeah so i

00:52:48.140 actually i kind of wrote my manifesto

00:52:49.980 backwards but i mean as a general

00:52:51.660 principle meme first and ask questions

00:52:53.360 later i think it's exactly it's the right

00:52:55.220 way to do it 100 this is a war of memes

00:52:58.000 don't let anyone lie to you this is not a

00:53:00.120 war of essays this is not debate club this

00:53:02.080 is a war it's mad actually i've just like

00:53:04.420 the the concentration level you know you

00:53:06.580 you come out with a meme and you're like

00:53:08.040 yeah that's funny i don't know what it

00:53:09.080 means yet but it's funny and then and

00:53:11.140 then you realize that if you tried if you

00:53:12.580 tried to explain to somebody in like

00:53:14.460 normal paragraphs what that meant it

00:53:15.980 would take at least four or five thousand

00:53:17.200 words but no it's it's just i said i'm

00:53:19.520 just gonna leave it as reactionary

00:53:20.540 feminism until like yeah as someone who

00:53:23.680 also created a meme and now has a book

00:53:26.220 title after it i understand exactly did

00:53:28.260 you want to tap the sign no that well no

00:53:30.840 that's the other the other me i had but

00:53:32.060 the total state you know i the total

00:53:34.400 state started on me as a meme on twitter

00:53:36.120 and now it's uh i made myself write a book

00:53:39.680 about it so it's the way and then and

00:53:41.260 then you you realize that explaining it

00:53:43.040 takes 50 000 words yes exactly all right

00:53:46.780 guys well i think that's everybody there

00:53:48.760 so we're going to go ahead and wrap it

00:53:50.000 up of course make sure that you're

00:53:51.360 checking out everything that mary is

00:53:52.940 doing always a fascinating take over at

00:53:55.720 her sub stack and if this is your first

00:53:58.100 time here make sure that you go ahead

00:53:59.800 and subscribe to the channel and if you

00:54:02.080 want to get these broadcasts as podcasts

00:54:04.020 make sure that you go ahead and subscribe

00:54:05.740 to the or mac entire podcast on your

00:54:07.640 favorite podcast platform when you do that

00:54:09.380 make sure to leave a rating or review it

00:54:11.720 helps with all the algorithm magic

00:54:13.520 thanks for coming by guys and as always

00:54:15.500 i'll talk to you next time

The Auron MacIntyre Show - June 15, 2023

The Devouring Mother and the Total State ｜ Guest： Mary Harrington ｜ 6⧸15⧸23

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