The Auron MacIntyre Show - The END of Free Speech in Europe ｜ Guest： Nate Hochman ｜ 3⧸27⧸24

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00:00:29.760 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.360 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.060 I've got a great stream with a great guest that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:37.360 Now, unfortunately, it feels like there's this constant update.

00:00:40.500 Like every three to six months, I have to come on and tell you guys once again that Europe is falling apart

00:00:46.180 and every bit of free speech is being eradicated.

00:00:49.340 And you think it can't have gotten any worse.

00:00:51.220 It couldn't have gotten any farther.

00:00:52.780 It's already as absurd as it possibly could be.

00:00:55.380 But it turns out that it's not.

00:00:57.180 And there's been a number of different developments since the last time I spoke about this with Harry over at the Lotus Eaters.

00:01:03.840 And Nate Hockman did a good job of kind of bringing all this together, consolidating it, and breaking it down for everybody.

00:01:10.560 So I wanted to bring him on to go ahead and talk about his piece and free speech in general.

00:01:15.460 Nate, thanks for coming on, man.

00:01:17.240 Yeah.

00:01:17.680 Thanks so much for having me on.

00:01:18.720 Good to be here.

00:01:19.100 Absolutely.

00:01:20.100 So we've had a lot of recent free speech violations in Europe.

00:01:26.900 We, of course, had one guy who was arrested for group chats.

00:01:32.560 We had another guy who was banned from Germany for just disagreeing with mass immigration.

00:01:39.640 A guy who was arrested for stickers.

00:01:42.940 It's pretty absurd over there.

00:01:45.080 And I want to dive into all the different layers of this.

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00:03:16.000 That's ISI.org.

00:03:19.040 All right, Nate.

00:03:20.140 So like I said, there's a long list of updates on how Europe has fallen.

00:03:24.240 But let's start at the beginning.

00:03:26.140 What happened in Belgium with this guy who got arrested for being in a group chat?

00:03:31.240 Yeah, I think I've said this before.

00:03:34.940 One of the charming things about Americans is how little they care about what's going on in other countries.

00:03:39.880 But in this case, I think Americans aren't fully aware, at least your sort of average American isn't fully aware of just how insane things have gotten in Europe.

00:03:48.620 And the most recent sort of high profile example of this was this Belgian politician in a very American way.

00:03:54.700 I'm sure I'm going to butcher his name.

00:03:55.960 But Dries van Langenhoven, who is from the sort of Flemish region of Belgium, who had served in parliament and was the leader of a pretty significant,

00:04:04.380 substantial right-wing youth activist group with all the sort of normal European right-wing priors.

00:04:11.700 And he got a year in prison and a 16,000 euro fine, which I think is something like $17,500 U.S. dollars for being in a group chat where allegedly offensive memes were being sent.

00:04:25.120 And if that wasn't outrageous enough, he wasn't the person sending the memes.

00:04:28.960 It was his digital proximity to, you know, edgy, whatever, offensive memes that got him a year in prison.

00:04:36.720 Now, I think the important context in that case and in a lot of other cases that I'm sure we'll talk about is that his party that he represented,

00:04:44.420 which is like this Flemish nationalist anti-immigration right-wing party, was surging and is surging in the polls.

00:04:50.760 So, you know, maybe it's a coincidence that the Belgian state just suddenly became extremely interested in his private group chats right around the time that their actual sort of regime hegemony was threatened by the movement he represented.

00:05:04.540 But you see the same coincidence happening over and over again across Europe.

00:05:08.660 So it's pretty clear what the game is actually all about.

00:05:11.060 Yeah, man, I love Western liberal democracy.

00:05:13.200 Yeah, you're so free, you can vote for anybody you want as long as they haven't been in a group chat where someone posted a meme that your political enemies might find mildly offensive.

00:05:24.580 That's, I mean, thank God we don't live under Putin.

00:05:27.560 It's just amazing the amount of freedom that people in the West get to enjoy.

00:05:32.100 And if we're not fighting for our democracy, then really, I mean, we could fall under some kind of strange totalitarianism.

00:05:39.300 Book coming out about that on May 7th, by the way, Total State, check it out.

00:05:42.540 So, this is kind of amazing.

00:05:45.640 And you're right that the most important thing, a through line through all the people we're going to talk about today, is really the fact that they represent the possibility of any kind of pushback in Europe.

00:05:58.260 It's very clear that there is a frustration.

00:06:03.060 And when we talk about this, it's not some far right crazy pushback.

00:06:09.000 It is a pretty much basic liberals who just want the ability to say, I think maybe we shouldn't have unlimited immigrants inside our borders. 0.98

00:06:17.500 Maybe we shouldn't teach all the kids to mutilate their genitalia. 1.00

00:06:21.600 Like, just very basic things and nothing crazy for the most part.

00:06:26.760 And yet, just the simple opposition, this populist is the word that gets thrown around, which just means democracy we don't like, uprising for many people, is terrifying.

00:06:37.680 Kind of these ruling elites and the crackdown on speech is insane.

00:06:42.640 And like you said, the fact that this guy himself didn't even send the meme, it makes it very clear.

00:06:47.340 I mean, it feels like I could get arrested for having been on Xbox Live 10 years ago, right?

00:06:51.980 Like, that's the level we're at now, where any connection, any tenuous connection to someone is immediately a reason to go ahead and imprison them.

00:07:01.180 You don't need any real tangible evidence of a crime because, well, it's thought crime.

00:07:06.840 At any point, you can be picked up for it.

00:07:08.940 No, exactly.

00:07:10.580 To your point about the fact that, you know, all of these parties and movements are routinely, you know, insistently described as far right if you read any legacy media reporting on it.

00:07:19.480 It's one of the insufferable things about, you know, writing this column is you have to wade through these Washington Post and Politico pieces where it's impossible to sort of get any sort of sentence that isn't laden with these sort of buzzwords.

00:07:31.760 But it's true, and it's actually one of the distinctions between the sort of right-wing nationalist movements in a lot of these European countries and the American understanding of nationalism, conservatism, the right, whatever you want to say, is that social conservatism as Americans understand it, and that has existed as a political movement since, you know, the 70s and the 80s here, does not really have a foothold in Europe.

00:07:57.880 And that is expressed in the sense that a lot of these right-wing nationalist parties that are really anti-immigration are, in some ways, framing their sort of anti-immigration stance as a defense of a certain kind of liberalism.

00:08:11.100 You see that, you know, in, excuse me, in the Netherlands, where Geert Welders won, you know, his party just won this massive sort of upset anti-immigration wave victory, where he rose to prominence as an anti-Islam activist.

00:08:24.460 And part of his critique of Islam was that it was, like, anti-LGBT, anti-women's rights, anti-feminism.

00:08:30.560 You see the same thing with, like, Tommy Robinson in the UK.

00:08:33.500 So, you know, it's not the idiom that I would criticize, like, mass Arab immigration in, but the point is, like, a lot of these guys are a kind of sort of European liberal.

00:08:42.360 But they, I think, in some ways, correctly perceive that the defense of a specifically Western European liberalism requires keeping out, you know, the entire population of Syria from your country, especially when you live in a country that's the size of a small northeastern state. 0.99

00:08:58.740 So all that is to say, for all of the black pills about Europe, and I, you know, this entire segment is to an extent about some black pills about Europe, what is true is that the nationalist right in Europe is ascendant.

00:09:11.540 And it's ascendant across a variety of different Western countries.

00:09:15.660 You know, the legacy of Brexit was totally betrayed by the elites in Westminster.

00:09:20.100 But since then, obviously, you've got Hungary.

00:09:23.400 You've got, you know, Emmanuel Macron in the upcoming European elections is facing a viable challenge from the French Nationalist Party.

00:09:30.460 They're ahead in the polls.

00:09:31.720 The alternative for Deutschland, the alternative for Germany in Germany, which is a nationalist party, is they're talking about banning it outright in Germany because it's surging in the polls.

00:09:41.580 It's arguably the most popular party in large parts of Germany.

00:09:45.960 In the Netherlands, they just had this nationalist uprising where they won power.

00:09:50.380 You can go down the list.

00:09:51.720 You know, Belgium, we were just talking about Italy.

00:09:55.160 You know, so in most of these Western European countries, it's a potent force.

00:09:58.980 In some of them, they have actually won power.

00:10:00.940 And you can criticize each of these different nationalist movements for various reasons or for various things.

00:10:06.880 But the point is, like, that's where the small d democratic energy is.

00:10:10.180 And it is directly opposed to the sort of hegemonic regime which has governed in Europe for the past 50, 60 plus years.

00:10:18.000 And unlike America, they have hate speech laws there.

00:10:21.520 And they are increasingly willing to use them in the most draconian, the most authoritarian, the most, you know, Putinistic, whatever you want to describe it way.

00:10:31.600 And, you know, these examples I was talking about in my column are just a few of those.

00:10:35.340 Yeah, Melania, I know, has been a big disappointment to a lot of people.

00:10:39.940 Yeah, a lot of, you know, the press was hyping her up as the descendant of Mussolini, the next coming of fascism in Italy.

00:10:48.040 And she's just letting in basically a large amount of migrants.

00:10:51.820 There's not a huge change there.

00:10:53.240 And so a lot of people are skeptical.

00:10:54.320 But you're right that this is the zeitgeist, right?

00:10:57.020 Whether it is everything it needs to be, whether it is actually culminating in the current change of immigration policy necessary to arrest this massive wave, 0.90

00:11:08.440 it is at least clear that there is a desire of the people to see a significant change.

00:11:13.460 And that does matter, even if, unfortunately, currently there aren't people who are willing to go ahead and draw those bright lines.

00:11:19.980 But you spoke about Germany, and that means we should probably go ahead and get to Martin Selner.

00:11:24.080 He goes in there and tries to give a speech about immigration restriction.

00:11:28.780 He gets shut down and arrested by the police just for talking about this.

00:11:33.260 They're not even allowed to suggest in Germany that perhaps you don't need to have, like you said, the entire population of Syria moving in next door.

00:11:42.260 And not only does he get arrested, he's banned from the country for three years, I believe now.

00:11:48.060 He can't even enter it, you know, because it's so dangerous that anyone might suggest that you shouldn't have wide open immigration.

00:11:55.680 And I understand that at some level this is part of their power, right?

00:12:00.580 Like it's critical that this is the alliance, the pan-European alliance, I guess, because of the kind of the progressive status quo is mass immigration.

00:12:10.440 But at some point you have to think that this is a suicide pact, right?

00:12:15.020 Every one of these countries is dealing with this.

00:12:17.780 And they're basically at this point planning to imprison their native population just to shut them up long enough to make sure that another population can be moved in. 0.98

00:12:27.860 How long can a place like Germany continue to exist in this matter? 0.98

00:12:31.820 It's an important point.

00:12:34.140 And you could say the same thing to an extent, I think, about the quote-unquote status quo in America is one of the weird paradoxes of the sort of hegemonic regimes in the West today is that the paradigm they're defending is not just unstable, it's destabilizing.

00:12:50.620 So they are going to increasingly extreme lengths to try to defend a paradigm that in some ways is subverting their own power.

00:12:58.560 Now, whether or not the subversion of their own power leads to right-wing nationalists eventually coming into power, I don't know.

00:13:04.860 But the point is, in some ways, I don't want to give them any tips, but in some ways making certain concessions would probably serve their own interests.

00:13:13.620 Because, A, you've seen some sort of parties do this, like in Scandinavia, you've had a bunch of center-left parties make certain concessions to the anti-immigration sentiment in order to maintain power and to varying degrees of success.

00:13:26.580 But in a lot of these other places, they are just so ideologically committed, or perhaps because of material interests.

00:13:33.040 I don't know the exact motivations of each of these parties, but they are so committed to mass immigration that they are unable to make concessions to parties like the AFD in Germany, the anti-immigration wave in Belgium, in the Netherlands, et cetera.

00:13:49.780 And what you are going to increasingly see, I think this is undeniable now, is things like what you saw in Ireland at the end of last year, where there was this mass uprising of riots from native Irish people who had been holding peaceful protests for years, the better part of at least a decade, against immigration.

00:14:10.520 And these were the definition of peaceful protests, like the Irish would go out with their babies in their strollers and sing songs, and you have church groups protesting mass immigration.

00:14:21.460 And you had all of these high-profile cases of migrant attacks at various places in Ireland, which is a very small, traditionally very homogenous country.

00:14:29.400 And you had waves of migrants just getting dumped into these small rural Irish towns.

00:14:35.300 Their housing crisis is the direct result of mass immigration. 0.98

00:14:39.840 Their welfare system is about to collapse, arguably.

00:14:43.280 So you had all of these real problems, and the native Irish population had been trying to make their voice heard, and the government had been doing the opposite of listening to them.

00:14:50.900 They'd been ratcheting up the immigration levels.

00:14:53.520 And then you had this grotesque stabbing by, I think it was an Algerian national, of three young Irish children, and Ireland exploded.

00:15:02.760 Like, all of Dublin was on fire for a couple of days.

00:15:06.620 The population was increasingly incensed.

00:15:09.720 And most recently, Leo Varadkar, the head of Ireland's government, resigned, I think, in no small part because of this.

00:15:16.080 So it's a perfect example, right, where you try to keep the lid on as the boiling point continues to go up.

00:15:21.940 And eventually, it does boil over, and people in power are – their power is destabilized as a result of that.

00:15:29.020 So I don't know if a lot of these other people are going to learn their lesson, but it is – you're absolutely right that the current status quo is actually probably weakening their hold on power in some ways.

00:15:40.560 Yeah, this is – yeah, I've got an ongoing bet with my buddy Nima Parvina, academic agent, that the woke will not be put away.

00:15:46.780 And one of the reasons I'm very sure that I'm going to hold a cigar in victory in my right hand from Nima Parvini is because of this exact fact, right?

00:15:56.780 Every one of these ruling elites is – they have a suicide pact going.

00:16:01.220 Their current policies are unsustainable.

00:16:03.220 They will destroy their country.

00:16:04.920 And they only seem to be cracking down.

00:16:07.700 They only seem to be accelerating.

00:16:09.480 They seem to be becoming more and more just completely mad over the need to push this policy.

00:16:17.300 And when you're in that kind of extreme religious fervor, you're not pulling back because you're going to make smart, tactical decisions.

00:16:24.500 Like, those off-ramps are all behind you at this point.

00:16:27.560 And so I think that's actually the toughest thing for a lot of these European countries is probably to realize is that kind of the – all the easy decisions are in the rearview mirror at this point.

00:16:37.440 And that's the only thing left is very hard decisions, which makes political change even more difficult because you really have to start talking about deportations and other things that would have been a lot – it would have been a lot easier simply to slow down this process.

00:16:49.380 But now you actually have to extract foreign populations if you want to be able to save your country at this point. 1.00

00:16:55.960 And that, of course, is a far more difficult thing to do.

00:16:59.040 And so that really exacerbates the situation.

00:17:01.600 And it really is amazing to me that all of this has happened at every one of these countries at the same time.

00:17:08.820 Every one of these elites, every one of them seems to be pushing the same direction.

00:17:12.580 And the native populations are always trapped.

00:17:14.840 We have the same thing to a lesser extent in the U.S.

00:17:17.560 Luckily, we're a larger country with a lot more kind of space to breathe on this issue.

00:17:22.580 But we have the same problem where it doesn't matter if the Republicans are in power and it doesn't matter if we get a new GOP speaker.

00:17:29.480 The most important thing is how much money can we get to Ukraine?

00:17:32.220 How much money can we get to Israel?

00:17:33.600 The major priority is building border walls between Israel and Palestine and not on our own border.

00:17:39.520 And it doesn't it doesn't seem to matter which half of the managerial elite we put into power.

00:17:45.900 I mean, Trump slowed down entries, which is good that there was a notable drop.

00:17:51.060 And that kind of shows you how simple the policy change can be.

00:17:54.900 Simply letting people know that there just isn't going to be free stuff and jobs for them when you get there shuts down a large amount of your mass immigration.

00:18:02.060 You know, just knowing that you're not going to immediately be welcomed into the country because this mass immigration journey is actually very dangerous for a lot of people is very expensive. 1.00

00:18:11.840 It comes at a high personal cost.

00:18:13.540 And the only reason you're going to engage in that is if you know that there's an incentive once you get there.

00:18:19.000 And so Trump just say, no, that's not going to exist for you was enough to reduce a large amount.

00:18:22.960 There wasn't a radical change really in border enforcement. 0.96

00:18:25.860 And that's why the whole Biden, I need more money, I need more laws thing is just garbage. 0.60

00:18:30.860 It's obviously not the case. 0.75

00:18:32.620 But it feels like just every one of these every one of these governments is just captured by both sides.

00:18:39.180 You look at the UK where the conservatives have been in power, they're dominating, the Tories dominate.

00:18:46.060 And still the flow of immigration continues.

00:18:48.920 The entire Brexit referendum was about this.

00:18:51.600 The entire, you know, kind of elevation of them to power was about this.

00:18:56.180 And yet nothing happens.

00:18:57.680 The one thing that can't change is the flow of illegal immigrants into Western nations. 0.98

00:19:02.820 The exact instance.

00:19:04.580 It was much worse than nothing happening, actually.

00:19:07.180 Boris Johnson and subsequent Tory leadership presided over a unprecedented increase in immigration, which, again, is it is difficult to think.

00:19:17.140 In general, there are a lot of right wing populists in a lot of different Western countries have failed their voters in fundamental ways.

00:19:25.580 It is difficult to think of a political failure and a political betrayal so egregious, at least in modern or recent history, as that of the Tories and Brexit.

00:19:36.060 Right.

00:19:36.200 I mean, they they were smart enough to know that it was about immigration.

00:19:40.680 They can't, you know, plead ignorance on that front.

00:19:43.080 And yet they presided over a massive increase of immigration into into the United Kingdom.

00:19:50.300 And, you know, the thing to sort of remember, you alluded to it earlier, was these European countries, you know, I lived in just because of where my family was working in high school.

00:20:00.400 I lived in Amsterdam and you drive to neighboring European countries in a couple of hours, like it's like driving between states in the northeast.

00:20:09.400 So these are a lot of these countries of the size of New York City or, you know, maybe slightly bigger, slightly more landmass.

00:20:15.280 They've got some rural areas.

00:20:16.400 But when you when you talk about immigration into these little sort of nation states, the drastic effect of something like that, particularly when it's a sort of third world population that is radically different from the native population with completely different customs, practices, beliefs, et cetera, is I mean, like in some ways it's actually surprising.

00:20:38.860 There hasn't been more of a of a response from the native populations, given the drastic and radical changes that have been wrought in their countries as a result of this phenomenon in a relatively short period of time.

00:20:52.220 I mean, the Syrian refugee crisis was what, like 2014, something like that.

00:20:56.620 So so frankly, I'm surprised you haven't seen more sort of Dublin riots.

00:21:01.540 And, you know, now obviously you are seeing an expression of that in elections and the small democratic will.

00:21:07.100 But you have to wonder, like when these people keep voting this way and all they get is more immigration, like, you know, it's like that Simpson meme of the sort of 2004 Bush election where, you know, he presses the carry button and they just keep saying Bush.

00:21:21.600 When they keep voting for change and they keep getting not just more of the same, but in many cases a ratcheting up of the problem they're voting against.

00:21:29.180 That was what was true of Maloney in Italy.

00:21:31.220 She presided over an unprecedented increase in immigration.

00:21:34.580 At a certain point, like you can't blame these people for losing faith in the democratic process.

00:21:39.380 And I think, you know, everyone should be worried about what happens then, because I think that the riots like we saw in Dublin and, you know, here in America, what we saw with things like January 6th are probably only going to be the beginning unless people actually eventually get what they vote for.

00:21:55.100 Yeah, I want to go into that in more depth because I think you're exactly right.

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00:23:21.880 All right.

00:23:22.700 So in the UK, there was this crazy instance.

00:23:28.020 A guy got arrested for having stickers.

00:23:31.200 You need the sticker license in UK to do the meme.

00:23:33.940 Where's your sticker license?

00:23:35.420 So what happened here?

00:23:36.660 So he was, again, this was an anti-immigration activist.

00:23:41.100 I can't remember the specific group he was a part of, but it was, you know, right-wing nationalist, anti-immigration European group.

00:23:47.480 His name was Samuel Malia.

00:23:49.400 And he was, he was, I think he had a Telegram channel or group chat with like three or 4,000 people in it.

00:23:57.240 And he was sending out like templates for printable stickers that were anti-immigration stickers and mass immigration.

00:24:03.480 There was, I mean, it was, it was sort of a, but within the American Overton window, it was stuff like, you know, will the native British people be replaced in their homeland?

00:24:13.340 Something like that.

00:24:14.000 Right.

00:24:14.140 But it was, it was anti-immigration stickers.

00:24:17.340 It was squarely within certainly any American conception of free speech.

00:24:22.120 And he was arrested and given two years in jail for inciting racial hatred.

00:24:28.660 And I went, I mean, I read the, it's called like the Crown's prosecutor statement there.

00:24:33.040 Um, and the, just, it was sort of beyond parody if it wasn't so dark about the statement where they, they had this sort of long description of how he was found with stickers in his wallet and they opened his wallet to pull out the stickers.

00:24:47.140 And they were with the stickers had slogans expressing views of a nationalist nature and views of a nationalist nature, at least in public, uh, are, are apparently, uh, meriting two years in jail in the United Kingdom.

00:25:02.240 Now, um, and like, it was literally, it was like a drug possession charge.

00:25:07.060 It was what they were charging him with was possession of stickers with intent to distribute.

00:25:11.620 Like that was literally the language that they used.

00:25:14.360 So it's hard stuff.

00:25:16.740 Yeah.

00:25:17.020 Yeah.

00:25:17.420 Really?

00:25:17.840 Like, yeah.

00:25:18.180 It's like he had like, you know, a kilo of crack cocaine or something, you know?

00:25:22.300 Um, but, but that, that is, that is what the UK is at now.

00:25:25.980 And again, you know, just to reiterate, like this is under a quote unquote conservative government, you know, capital C,

00:25:32.120 capital P conservative party.

00:25:33.680 Um, and you know, if you look at like the headlines in, in UK, like the conservative party with a few notable exceptions is all for this, uh, just like they're all for mass immigration.

00:25:44.120 So, uh, especially in the UK, there really isn't an actual political rights at all anymore.

00:25:51.220 And, you know, I have perpetual gripes about the GOP.

00:25:54.620 I think they're constantly failing their voters.

00:25:56.740 They're certainly constantly disappointing me.

00:25:59.480 Uh, but they're, they are substantially better.

00:26:02.520 And the conservative infrastructure we have to actually apply pressure to the GOP is substantially better than anything in the UK where this stuff is happening,

00:26:10.340 not just with the consent of the governing conservative majority, but often with the active encouragement of it.

00:26:15.920 Um, yeah, you, you, you spoke about, uh, the, the need to crack down on speech because the, of the constant unrest, because both sides are just not reacting.

00:26:26.820 There is no political, uh, outlet, both sides are gung ho behind these policies.

00:26:33.520 It doesn't matter who you vote for.

00:26:34.780 And so you get this, this, uh, rage bubbling up.

00:26:38.160 That's how you get the, the protests in Ireland.

00:26:40.060 And that's how that goes, those develop into riots.

00:26:42.640 And it's interesting because of course, our own government in the United States use social media pretty aggressively to create color revolutions in other states.

00:26:54.340 That's how we ended up with, you know, the Arab spring and many of these others.

00:26:58.100 That's how Ukraine has its current government.

00:27:00.200 It's very democratically elected government.

00:27:02.280 I assure you very democratically elected, certainly not placed in charge by blue America and the CIA.

00:27:10.060 Uh, and so, uh, when, when you have this technology and you're familiar with how to manipulate, you know, you need to shut it down.

00:27:17.280 And so these Western governments who have on pretty regular basis used social media as a way to unseat anybody who wasn't going to bow to the global Western order went ahead and basically realized that they need to start cutting their own citizens off from this very same technology.

00:27:36.080 It's dangerous to have their people plugged in to the same outlets because who knows if those people might try to organize alongside them.

00:27:44.260 And that's why I think we've seen this aggressive policing of basically any anti-immigration rhetoric and, uh, you, the, in the use of social media, because they understand the power that this disruptive tool has.

00:27:56.300 And they want to make sure that there isn't any kind of organic response to the very thing that they're trying to implement in their own country.

00:28:06.020 Yeah. You never expect the color revolution to come home.

00:28:08.700 It's supposed to be something that you do to other countries. 0.94

00:28:11.000 It's not something that's supposed to happen to your regime at home, but that's exactly right. 1.00

00:28:15.100 Um, it is fascinating to, to watch the rhetoric of, you know, people like Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and sort of like quintessential regime aligned, you know, Democrats, security state technocrats, managerial elites, whatever in the sort of early 2000s in the lead up to the Arab spring, where they're talking about social media companies as these beacons of democracy, you know, this, where people can exchange information and ideas that subvert, you know, like the authoritarian regimes.

00:28:44.240 And this is how you have sort of mass democratic uprisings.

00:28:47.980 Uh, and it is, it is squarely at odds with the way that any of those people talk about social media today.

00:28:52.680 I mean, Barack Obama was out there during the Arab spring touting Twitter.

00:28:56.500 He was asked, I think in 2018 or 2019, what he thought, uh, the biggest threat to democracy was today.

00:29:02.480 He said internet disinformation, right?

00:29:04.440 So it as the, it's like a Frankenstein's monster phenomenon where they have created something, uh, that was, they correctly saw as empowering small D democracy, but they never expected that actually empowering small D democracy, uh, would lead to, to democratic uprising here as well.

00:29:22.800 So that's the, uh, the conundrum that I think they find themselves in.

00:29:26.980 And I think, um, you know, it, it is why they are increasingly hysterical about technological disinformation, et cetera.

00:29:35.260 Now, like that isn't really a word that was in our lexicon five years ago.

00:29:39.100 And now there's an entire multi-billion dollar industry dedicated to, you know, working people up into fits of hysterics about it.

00:29:45.880 And there's an obvious reason for that, right?

00:29:47.300 Which is what you were just saying.

00:29:48.280 Yeah, there's a morbid fascination, you know, I understand it's evil, but as, you know, kind of a professional word sell, I do find the, the making of the sausage fascinating.

00:30:00.020 I, I appreciate the craft of the new speak, even if I know it's, it's, you know, totally evil.

00:30:06.380 It's like, well, I got, I got to give you guys credit that that is an impressive way to, to manipulate that and manufacture that.

00:30:12.720 I'm amazing.

00:30:13.500 Amazing that you managed to spin this entire industry up in just a few years.

00:30:17.080 And, and again, just explode, of course, the, your, your left-wing patronage and everything inside of it.

00:30:23.060 It's beautiful.

00:30:24.060 It's, it's horrifying, but, but it's beautiful in a way, you know, it's like the creation of a Death Star.

00:30:29.200 You're awed by it, even if you know, it's about to blow you up.

00:30:33.020 But I have to ask you this, you know, we talk about free speech in Europe.

00:30:37.020 And I wonder sometimes if this is a projection backwards of American and specifically Anglo norms onto a continent that wasn't maybe this homogenous.

00:30:48.920 You know, obviously America has kind of the, the, the tradition carried over from the UK of kind of a, a, a more rights-based society, a bill of rights, having, having the ability to have free speech.

00:31:06.180 That's not necessarily a pan-European value in the way that I think we often pretend that it is.

00:31:13.120 We may not have God emperors in Europe the way that you did and, you know, China and other places more explicitly.

00:31:20.780 But I feel like that ability to voice your opinion and, and kind of have that limited constitutional monarchy and things really are straight out of the Magna Carta.

00:31:29.840 And, and, and the, you know, kind of the, the chain of, of custody that delivers that into the American tradition.

00:31:35.980 And in many ways, because the United States kind of conquered the world in World War II and exported its government to every European country, we now pretend like this is a long European tradition when maybe it's not.

00:31:51.100 And we shouldn't be as surprised that most of these countries kind of just went back to their norm once, you know, it became more politically convenient.

00:32:00.900 I think there's a lot of truth to that.

00:32:03.000 What I will say is that I think, I'm, I don't know exactly quite how to formulate it.

00:32:08.500 I think there is, while there is not necessarily a sort of rights-based, almost sort of libertarian in an older sense of the word, tradition that is unique to the Anglosphere.

00:32:18.440 Although we were just talking about what was happening in the UK.

00:32:20.660 So I think insofar as sort of traditional Anglo values were something that was born, that were born in the UK, you know, the situation is worse in the UK now than it is a lot of, in a lot of main, mainland European countries.

00:32:34.200 But it is certainly true that there's a sort of much more fierce, much more ardent tradition of sort of smaller Republican liberty in, in the, in the Anglo tradition.

00:32:44.920 With that being said, I think there is something that is distinctly sort of, you know, what has defined Western civilization for the last thousand years, at least, is a sort of restlessness, a dynamism, a certain amount of expansionism, which led to the West, you know, going beyond its borders to conquer the entire world and build empires.

00:33:07.220 And back home, that led to its own sort of dynamism that, that led itself, I think, to the sort of development of broadly self-governing societies, where in a lot of these mainland European countries, before you had like the effective neutering of the monarchies, you still had an enormous amount of independence, both at the individual and the communal level.

00:33:30.700 You had city states, obviously going all the way back to ancient Greece, you had various sort of developing of a conception of liberty, a conception of rights, like all of those things.

00:33:41.820 Now we talk about them as abstract ideological concepts, and they've been totally perverted and bastardized more recently, but they were originally terms that, that, you know, political theorists developed to describe conditions that already existed on the ground in Europe.

00:33:55.820 And I think that that is true in a variety of different places, but it's, it is a tradition that I think runs across the West.

00:34:02.900 It isn't unique to the Anglosphere.

00:34:05.660 And in many ways, traditionally did distinguish the West from, you know, competing or rival civilizations, like Chinese civilization, which is sort of like the, you know, the, the, the major other world civilization,

00:34:19.680 had like millennia long dynasties with very little change, you know, large sort of bureaucratic structures.

00:34:28.780 And that was just sort of the status quo.

00:34:30.760 And it was the status quo for your great grandfather.

00:34:32.600 And it would be the status quo for your great grandchildren.

00:34:35.400 You had dynasties in Europe, but there was much more dynamism, much more change, and much more of a sort of spirit of independence.

00:34:41.840 And even I would venture a form of a spirit of liberty that, that runs across the West.

00:34:48.920 So that's a long way of saying what is happening now.

00:34:51.300 I think you are right.

00:34:52.220 And other people have said this, that in places like Italy or Belgium or wherever they are, they are much more used to a level of unfreedom than like Americans or even other kinds of Anglos are. 0.86

00:35:06.980 But it is also still true that the West has been defined by a certain kind of dynamic independence, which is obviously at odds with what these regimes are trying to do today.

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00:35:31.440 For sure.

00:35:33.020 And like you said, there is a, luckily in America, there is a different dynamic.

00:35:37.140 Like you, I am very sure that if the GOP was to be destroyed tomorrow, that would actually be a problem for the Democratic problem for the party.

00:35:45.580 That would not be a solution.

00:35:46.700 That's actually one of the things that the GOP does.

00:35:50.240 However, it's true that the conservative base, at least, really does genuinely have a level of resistance to the progressive mindset that simply doesn't exist in other European countries, I think, at the same level of fervor.

00:36:06.320 In the GOP, you still pretty much have to be anti-immigration.

00:36:11.060 You have to be anti-illegal immigration for sure.

00:36:13.080 And growingly, and now it's even more okay to just be anti-immigration, even legally.

00:36:19.720 And I think that's important.

00:36:21.080 That's critical.

00:36:21.780 That's a very positive shift that we've seen inside the party.

00:36:25.460 We're getting rid of kind of this Cato Institute conservatism.

00:36:30.240 And, you know, the quicker the better.

00:36:32.680 So that is a heartening change to see.

00:36:35.460 However, you know, while we do know that the First Amendment is, you know, the Constitution isn't going to protect anything at this point, but the vestiges of it, kind of the story that we tell ourselves, or at least half the country tells itself, still lends those constitutional protections a level of legitimacy that the government kind of has to pretend is real.

00:36:58.160 They have to at least work around pretty aggressively.

00:37:01.180 And that means that we have a lot more free speech in the United States.

00:37:04.160 It's still an important kind of firebreak at some level between us and the growing totalitarianism.

00:37:10.960 And because of that, you know, it's easy for us to say, like, well, at least we've got the First Amendment and we'll be fine here.

00:37:16.500 And that's not a problem.

00:37:17.320 And we don't need to worry about that.

00:37:19.000 But, of course, as you mentioned in your piece, Douglas Mackey has been sentenced to seven months of jail for memes.

00:37:25.040 I mean, at least in our at least in the United States, they have to pretend it's something else.

00:37:28.600 It's like, oh, he he stopped people from voting or some garbage when it's like, no, he made fun of Hillary Clinton. 0.76

00:37:33.400 And too effectively. 0.73

00:37:34.400 Ricky Vaughn was was too good of a poster.

00:37:36.980 And that's why he has to be sentenced to jail.

00:37:39.520 That's really all there is to it.

00:37:40.840 Yeah, it's too powerful.

00:37:41.640 His power level is too high.

00:37:43.700 And so that that really is the long and the short of it.

00:37:45.920 But they have to at least pretend there's something else.

00:37:48.080 There's a level of formality.

00:37:49.480 Oh, it's not the speech.

00:37:50.620 It's, you know, and they move his venue because the communication went through Internet wires somewhere.

00:37:56.180 That's literally that's an amazing justification.

00:37:59.440 It's an amazing legal novelty.

00:38:01.800 But the but the fact that that's coming in the United States is still terrifying.

00:38:06.740 Make fun of, you know, Belgium for some guy getting memes in group chat.

00:38:10.600 But really, how far away is Douglas Mackey's case from?

00:38:13.420 Well, not just that, but also the introduction of these sort of quasi private, not really quite private, but still not subject to the same sort of constitutional impositions, technology platforms where increasingly that is the public square.

00:38:29.580 That is where the conversation takes place.

00:38:31.320 If you don't have access to those, then you are effectively unpersoned in large parts of American life.

00:38:37.120 Like that raises the question of, like, even if you have sort of certain vestiges, cultural, institutional, et cetera, of a sort of First Amendment framework that would protect against.

00:38:49.620 I mean, they're not fully protecting against in the case of Douglas Mackey, but are at least holding at bay the kind of direct state tyranny that you're seeing in Europe.

00:38:58.160 But if the government can outsource this to Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, it is effectively getting the same bang for its buck.

00:39:06.500 It's not you know, it might not be able to do certain things on the margins, but that's effectively the same the same effect, because the effect they're looking for, of course, is to excise these figures and their ideas from the public square so that the fewest people possible hear them.

00:39:21.000 Right. That that's what they're trying to do in Europe.

00:39:22.660 That's what they're trying to do in America. 0.78

00:39:23.960 And increasingly, where everything is online, you can do that pretty well if you have, you know, what happened post J6, where every single technology platform in uniform banned Donald Trump.

00:39:34.340 Right. Like, you know, Donald Trump is unique in that he has a big enough megaphone and profile that he can get past that.

00:39:39.740 And then you have Elon Musk coming over, coming on. He's at least allowed to be back on Twitter, even if he isn't using it.

00:39:45.520 But that level of coordination, which you have seen in smaller scale cases than Donald Trump, allows them to get 80, 90 percent of the way there, which is why I think, you know, I've become increasingly convinced that I always obviously thought censorship and free speech were issues.

00:40:01.600 I've become increasingly convinced that they are sort of the defining issues of our time.

00:40:05.680 I mean, obviously, you could make a case, a strong case, I would say, that mass immigration is the issue of our time. 0.80

00:40:11.100 I see them as as inextricably linked to one another.

00:40:13.760 But there's an argument you can make where it's like, you know, you aren't even going to be able to make the case for against mass immigration or even show people what mass immigration looks like in practice if you can't post, if you can't, you know, get your ideas and your videos and your images out there.

00:40:31.240 And and this, you know, it's I was thinking about this the other day.

00:40:35.200 It's bizarre that in the wake of 2020, there was a period where Republicans were at least talking about this.

00:40:41.260 And most of them weren't actually interested in doing anything about it.

00:40:44.440 But because it was in the zeitgeist, their feet were getting held to the fire to a certain extent.

00:40:49.180 And it is not I think it is not being discussed with the amount of urgency that is required by Republicans and to an extent by the sort of conservatives who are responsible for holding their feet to the fire.

00:41:00.700 I think it is the issue of our time, arguably, and I think it will continue to be until there's some sort of resolution.

00:41:07.700 Yeah, I think you're right that these are actually just linked together, that they are symbiotic because the the mass immigration and we'll just put our cards on the table here.

00:41:18.980 There's no hours too late to beat around the bush here.

00:41:21.600 The reason mass immigration is important is because democracy, popular sovereignty is the legitimating force in the United States.

00:41:29.500 And whatever people, you know, oh, these people can't vote, they can't vote.

00:41:33.420 Yeah, of course, they're going to vote, guys.

00:41:34.980 Absolutely.

00:41:35.660 Like they're going out of their way to make sure they don't have IDs.

00:41:37.980 They're doing all the the the balloting, you know, the mail in ballots.

00:41:42.940 They're there.

00:41:43.440 They know that once they get enough people in here, they're going to get an amnesty that the things will shift.

00:41:48.000 This is absolutely about changing the voter base, making sure that the people who provide the legitimacy, provide popular sovereignty are different and make sure that they'll vote the way that the left wants to.

00:42:00.420 And so they have to bring people in to to shut down the free speech.

00:42:03.940 If you get a critical amount of people who don't care about free speech because they're not from this tradition, they don't have that connection and that value, they will eventually just go ahead and give it up because it doesn't matter to them.

00:42:13.920 So they can get free stuff.

00:42:15.640 And the same thing, you know, and so that the free speech and the mass immigration are exactly the same issue because that's how they get rid of the free speech. 0.60

00:42:22.660 And they need to get rid of the free speech to continue that process.

00:42:25.460 And so these things are are absolutely 100 percent connected.

00:42:29.740 Now, most of the opposition to this is on the right, though, as we know, the GOP is a wildly imperfect tool for this.

00:42:38.780 And so as we both already kind of pointed out.

00:42:42.340 And so I want to go ahead and show people something that dropped just an hour before we got on here.

00:42:47.820 And what happened was Greg Abbott, Greg Abbott has been great.

00:42:52.180 And this is this is the problem.

00:42:53.300 Greg Abbott has been great on certain things like illegal immigration.

00:42:56.660 He's been good on things like like child mutilation, the trans stuff for kids. 1.00

00:43:03.660 He's been good on things.

00:43:04.840 And so Greg Abbott, in many ways, is leading the charge in a lot of areas that conservatives would like to see changes made.

00:43:12.460 However, Greg Abbott just issued today a tweet.

00:43:17.240 He proudly tweeted out that, you know, we're not going to tolerate anti-Semitism in Texas.

00:43:22.860 It's it's terrifying, blah, blah, blah.

00:43:25.540 And, you know, this has been a wave.

00:43:27.340 We've seen a lot of pressure post kind of the October 7th attacks in Israel and the horrific stuff that happened there.

00:43:35.260 And the kind of reaction by many progressives, especially Palestinian students or students aligned with the Palestinian cause.

00:43:43.780 We've seen a lot of pressure to kind of cancel, get get people fired.

00:43:49.840 The Harvard president was fired.

00:43:52.280 I want to be really clear.

00:43:53.560 You know, Claudine Gay was not fired for her plagiarism.

00:43:58.460 No one cares about her plagiarism.

00:44:00.020 She was fired because she did not protect Jewish students from Palestinian criticism.

00:44:05.720 And so, you know, there's obviously concern for safety.

00:44:10.100 And as far as you're, you know, you're securing the physical safety of students and making sure that they're not intimidated on campus.

00:44:17.360 OK, that that's entirely reasonable.

00:44:18.940 That's the job of the government is to secure people's safety.

00:44:21.520 You're on strong grounds there.

00:44:23.300 You have a legitimate case.

00:44:24.920 However, you know, there's been a wave of these.

00:44:28.680 DeSantis, I know South Dakota had some legislation involved like this.

00:44:35.840 And now Greg Abbott has gone ahead and tweeted out this.

00:44:39.700 It talks about how we have to be careful and protect, you know, our Jewish students, that kind of thing.

00:44:44.580 Anti-Semitism, very bad.

00:44:46.220 However, the last paragraph here is the chilling one.

00:44:49.780 This is again, this is the text that Greg Abbott included in his tweet.

00:44:53.980 I'm not making anything up here.

00:44:55.460 I'm not exacerbating this.

00:44:56.780 This is now I don't know what the actual text of his bill or his executive order.

00:45:01.460 Rather, this isn't a bill is going to be.

00:45:04.620 However, this is the language he tweeted out in the press release below his tweet.

00:45:08.700 And the last paragraph says the governor's executive order requires that all higher education institutions in Texas review their free speech policies to establish appropriate punishment for anti-Semitic rhetoric on college.

00:45:22.980 And university campuses, not action, not violence, not intimidation, rhetoric.

00:45:29.780 That is speech.

00:45:31.320 I want them to review their free speech policies and make sure there is punishment for speech I don't like.

00:45:38.700 Now, again, you should not be mean to people.

00:45:41.100 You should not be mean to people based on the race.

00:45:42.980 And that includes Jewish people.

00:45:44.340 However, there is a terrifying amount of the guy, the guys who are supposed to be protecting free speech, the guys who are supposed to be stopping this chilling of speech, this intimidation by the government using anti-Semitism as an excuse to say, we are going to stop explicitly.

00:46:03.620 We are going to create punishment for anti-Semitic rhetoric on college campuses.

00:46:10.160 I mean, what do you do at this point when the guys who are, again, once again, supposed to be defending us from this stuff are the very ones putting it out?

00:46:17.660 Yeah, it's been remarkable since October 7th to watch conservatives just enthusiastically embrace, at least in this specific context, like everything they spent the past five years, I think rightly denouncing DEI, censorship, anti-free speech, you know, measures, et cetera.

00:46:36.300 I understand, you know, I've seen some disturbing clips from campuses as well of, you know, kids getting targeted because they're Jewish, et cetera.

00:46:45.440 Obviously, to your point, that's unacceptable.

00:46:48.000 It's unacceptable on, like, race and religion neutral grounds.

00:46:51.640 Like, that just should be unacceptable on campuses, period.

00:46:54.840 But the, you know, stuff like this, like you were saying, you know, Abbott's move in this regard is not unique.

00:47:01.580 It's something you've been seeing and certainly has been getting full-throated support from the entire GOP.

00:47:07.440 I think Abbott a couple years ago, I don't know what ended up with it, but he banned Gab on the basis that it was, like, proliferating, you know, anti-Semitism or something like that.

00:47:17.860 Like, this is essentially exactly what the left has been doing for a very long time, just in the specific context of anti-Semitism.

00:47:25.980 And it's, among many other reasons to object to it, like, the obvious question when he says something like there'll be appropriate punishments for anti-Semitic rhetoric is what is anti-Semitism?

00:47:37.460 Because, you know, the past sort of five months or so has demonstrated there's a substantial amount of disagreement about what does and doesn't constitute anti-Semitism.

00:47:45.340 And, you know, just in terms of the left alone, we've seen what they think anti-Semitism is.

00:47:52.960 And on university campuses, who's in control? The left, right?

00:47:56.100 So you're giving the left another tool to say, well, this is what anti-Semitism is.

00:48:00.980 Thank you very much, Governor Abbott.

00:48:02.340 Like, well, we'll take that increased, you know, bureaucratic power and we're going to punish it.

00:48:06.640 Who do you think the left-wing administrators on university campuses are going to go after with this newfound, you know, DEI adjacent power? 0.98

00:48:13.760 They're going to go after people, you know, whatever, criticizing George Soros, whatever the left calls anti-Semitism.

00:48:19.460 They're not going to, you know, maybe they will go after, like, pro-Palestinian people as well.

00:48:24.780 You know, I don't know the exact text of the bill.

00:48:27.200 But the point is, like, especially, especially in the context of the universities where any sane person who's been paying a modicum of attention over the past few years knows it's not right-wingers in control.

00:48:40.260 It's left-wingers in control.

00:48:41.680 You are seeing effectively in all these different measures a beefing up of the DEI regime.

00:48:47.060 And it's crazy because the entire sort of donor war on, like, Harvard and Brown, et cetera, was framed as this anti-DEI campaign.

00:48:55.180 But if you actually look at the material effect, what it ended up doing in most of these sort of elite Ivy League schools was beefing up the DEI department.

00:49:03.760 I had a sort of – I was waging for about a month there, like, a one-man Twitter jihad against Bill Ackman because he was someone who was just driving me crazy because he was lying.

00:49:13.160 He was lying.

00:49:14.160 And he was conscripting –

00:49:14.460 Tweeting out pictures of himself as Caesar.

00:49:16.400 As a gladiator, right?

00:49:18.140 I mean, that alone was just, like, insufferable to me.

00:49:20.920 But even more fundamentally, he was conscripting good, decent conservatives who correctly and legitimately cared about DEI into his fight against Claudine Gay and Harvard on the basis of something that had nothing to do with DEI.

00:49:36.020 And, you know, that was apparent when after he got Claudine Gay fired, he turned around and gave a million dollars to, like, a Democrat who had a DEI plank on his platform, right?

00:49:43.940 So, you know, what Ackman and a lot of other sort of people in that space did was effectively in the language – adopt the language of sort of anti-DEI for a brief moment in pursuit of beefing up the DEI bureaucracy.

00:49:59.760 And that's exactly what Harvard did.

00:50:00.880 You know what Harvard did?

00:50:01.500 They didn't dismantle their DEI department.

00:50:03.420 They added anti-Semitism to the DEI sort of regime, right?

00:50:07.080 And it's like, okay, so now you have more DEI bureaucrats.

00:50:11.320 They're all left-wing.

00:50:12.800 The DEI regime is stronger today than it was on October 7th, at least at places like Harvard.

00:50:17.820 And it did the exact opposite of what all these good, decent conservatives thought they were doing by supporting this campaign.

00:50:24.080 Oh, and it's even better than that because Chris Ruffo spearheaded this.

00:50:28.580 And, you know, it's like, oh, the anti-DEI wave is defeating it.

00:50:32.680 No, that's not the power.

00:50:33.900 That's unseating the person you're unseating.

00:50:35.580 And not only that, but now all the Democrats that wanted to get rid of Claudine or punish the pro-Palestinian wing, woke wing of kind of the left-wing power structure, they get to blame the right.

00:50:49.240 They get to blame – oh, it's Ruffo.

00:50:51.280 It's the right. 0.90

00:50:52.860 It's the racist over on the right. 0.95

00:50:54.940 They're the dangerous ones.

00:50:56.200 We're not the ones that did this to you, even though we totally did.

00:50:59.200 We get to use Ruffo as our wedge, and we get to blame him.

00:51:04.180 He's the boogeyman.

00:51:05.600 And so this internecine warfare is waged with the conservative activists as the pawns in kind of this whole play.

00:51:13.860 And it's terrifying, like you said, because obviously, like, the left is going to be the ones in power.

00:51:18.620 They're the ones who are going to wield this.

00:51:20.000 They're the ones who are going to decide who is going to be destroyed, who's going to be attacked by this.

00:51:24.340 But the right is doing their job for them on every level.

00:51:26.720 We just had a discussion on Palm Sunday on conservative Twitter about whether Christ is king is an anti-Semitic phrase.

00:51:33.380 In fact, this is still going on.

00:51:35.060 There's still people just insanely blurting this out.

00:51:38.740 And if we have laws like this being put in place by conservative governors, we have commands like this being issued by the GOP.

00:51:48.260 Again, the question becomes, is there anyone with the courage to actually represent most of the conservative base who don't want this stuff, who don't want this garbage, who want to be able to speak and want to be able to show their difference and their disagreement with what is going on here?

00:52:07.700 It's very clear that across the parties, even across the activist and commentator sphere of this, that there's just no home for people who want to be able to say, maybe we shouldn't be involved with this country.

00:52:21.280 Maybe we don't have to give our money and our blood and our foreign policy around this particular foreign power.

00:52:29.300 Maybe we can care about this country and focus here.

00:52:32.360 And apparently that's a position that's not acceptable anywhere.

00:52:35.560 And the fact that the definition of anti-Semitism, like you said, can be altered by the left or the right immediately to go ahead and punish anyone is terrifying.

00:52:45.560 What I've noticed in all of these actually has been that they all mentioned the importance of linking the university's definition of anti-Semitism to a third party, to another organization.

00:52:58.960 Now, I think that most of the people who are saying that will say, oh, well, the left is going to manipulate it.

00:53:03.660 So we have to take it out of the hands of the people in the administration because they're leftists and they'll use it.

00:53:10.280 You know, they'll manipulate it. 0.97

00:53:11.500 They'll use it to like, I don't know, empower the Palestinian protesters or whatever.

00:53:14.880 But it feels like the actual answer to this is actually we're just going to link this to pressure organizations like the ADL or it probably won't be explicit the ADL because they're so obviously progressive.

00:53:25.860 But it'll be some, you know, slightly less left wing ADL variant that will then be the ones that get to define what is now apparently illegal on a college campus because a Republican said so.

00:53:38.500 I think you're even giving him too much credit, like in terms of the ADL and not being the ADL, like when the Republicans were hearing, holding these hearings on anti-Semitism on campuses, they invited the ADL to testify, you know, which is like the ADL is spent, you know, the past whatever.

00:53:55.760 I don't know how many decades advocating for everything that Republicans claim to be against.

00:54:01.840 So, you know, it was remarkable seeing Jonathan Greenblatt, the head of the ADL, go on Squawk Box or one of these TV shows, Sunday TV shows, and like pound the table and complain about the victim Olympics on campus, you know, and it was like, it should be obvious to you guys what is happening here, right?

00:54:23.520 Like, does Jonathan Greenblatt actually care about the victim Olympics on campus?

00:54:27.600 No, he wants to see, like, you know, the DEI regime beefed up.

00:54:32.540 And actually there was, they interviewed in a separate piece around the same time, the former vice president of the ADL, and she said this.

00:54:38.300 She was like, we don't want to dismantle the DEI regime.

00:54:40.920 We just want to expand it to include anti-Semitism.

00:54:44.460 So, like, every step of the way, the Greenblatt one is the most shameless because everyone knows what Greenblatt is actually about, which is not dismantling DEI.

00:54:51.240 But you had this, you know, this mass sort of mobilization of people, including, like I said, I think a lot of conservatives who are decent, smart people who just got taken for a ride on this one, mobilize in the name of deconstructing, dismantling the DEI apparatus.

00:55:08.080 And again, you look around you now, and what's the net result post-October 7th is, at the very least, it's neutral.

00:55:15.160 And in some of these places, it's that the DEI regime and its sort of attendant bureaucratic branches are more powerful than they were on October 7th.

00:55:22.460 Yeah, and the most egregious part about all of this, I think the thing that really inflames people's anger, rightfully so, is that for at least a decade, I mean, it's been more than that kind of below the surface, but explicitly over the last decade.

00:55:36.720 There's been a jihad against, you know, white straight males on college campuses.

00:55:42.220 The hate has been explicit.

00:55:44.240 Entire books and papers are written about the elimination of whiteness.

00:55:48.620 Corporate trainings are done by Coca-Cola on how this needs to be wiped out.

00:55:53.140 College professors call openly for white G word.

00:55:57.440 I don't want the YouTube trigger here.

00:56:00.300 This is not, you know, some conspiracy theory.

00:56:03.220 You can just post, you know, all of the articles and books written by academics.

00:56:09.420 Protests are held.

00:56:11.100 Things sometimes get violent.

00:56:13.400 All in the name of attacking white European, you know, descendants. 1.00

00:56:19.020 And nothing, nothing from the right. 0.92

00:56:21.160 Other than like, oh, the wacky social justice warriors, they're going crazy.

00:56:25.360 Gotta do a bunch of YouTube episodes about them.

00:56:28.040 But no action, no, no, no impetus from the GOP anywhere to put any of this to bed.

00:56:35.780 And then all of a sudden it turns out that actually Jewish people are colonizers and Jewish people are qualified as white. 0.88

00:56:44.600 And all of a sudden they get put in the same box as white people have been in the last 10 years on all college campuses. 0.69

00:56:50.820 And all of a sudden, magically, snapping to it, man.

00:56:54.800 Every, every GOP governor, every activist, you know, we're, we're on top of this, man.

00:56:59.680 We got to take real substantive action.

00:57:02.740 That's great.

00:57:03.800 What happened?

00:57:04.720 What's the lag there?

00:57:05.880 I think it's pretty obvious to people that the GOP is fine with identity politics.

00:57:10.980 They, they embrace identity politics for all of their, you know, whinging about the end of identity politics and colorblind siding and everything.

00:57:19.100 They, they play identity politics all the time.

00:57:21.720 They invest in it very heavily.

00:57:22.980 And when it comes to the type of identity politics that is pre-approved and okay on the GOP, they snap to and go ahead and jump into action.

00:57:32.360 The minute that a group that they feel needs to be protected, you know, gets in trouble.

00:57:37.920 Yeah, I wrote a column, or I guess it was like an essay for the American conservative, like a month after, after October 7th, maybe a couple months, making precisely the point that, that you just made, which is like, you had this shocking mobilization, shocking, at least from the conservative perspective.

00:57:56.200 I had never seen anything like it in my lifetime, at least as long as I've been in politics, when you started to see these like anti-Israel uprisings on these elite campuses where all of these gajillionaire donors, right?

00:58:09.320 Like you had obviously Ackman, you had Ken Griffin at, you know, at Harvard, you had a bunch of different guys at UPenn.

00:58:15.660 All of these gajillionaire Republican donors, for the most part, were pulling millions of dollars from the universities within weeks of October 7th.

00:58:27.020 And surprise, surprise, like, you know, these things have material power.

00:58:30.820 They forced concessions on the behalf of the university administrations, the administrators, the college presidents, they got a couple of them fired, those McGill at Penn, you know, Claudine Gay at Harvard.

00:58:42.180 And, like, this was their red line, right?

00:58:45.320 Like, that they were, they were not going to stand for these uprisings on campus.

00:58:50.340 And the donors were just one component of it, right?

00:58:53.260 Like, you had the Republican Party mobilized in unison to hold these hearings.

00:58:56.840 And it was the only thing Fox News was talking about for weeks on end.

00:59:00.640 And, you know, you had one of those conservative groups, I can't remember which one, like, put up the doxing truck on the Harvard campus where they were broadcasting the names of all of these kids who, like, signed this letter.

00:59:12.420 And I was like, all right, like, great.

00:59:14.220 Like, that's your cause.

00:59:15.460 You know, go for it.

00:59:16.580 But to your point, like, what's been happening on college campuses for the past two decades?

00:59:23.940 Like, I certainly can tell you from my experience that you were seeing openly G-word idol rhetoric directed towards white people, especially straight white men.

00:59:34.680 And not just in, like, the sort of most brazen, open, outrageous sense, but that sort of sentiment was embedded into the way they taught everything, right?

00:59:44.400 This is not, you know, news to anyone who pays any attention to what happens on college campuses.

00:59:49.080 And what's more, like, you were talking about corporate trainings.

00:59:51.140 Like, the sort of rolling revolution that has swept across America over the last five years exacerbated, accelerated post-BLM in 2020. 0.79

01:00:01.320 Its seat was these elite universities, right?

01:00:03.700 Like, it began the universities, the ideas that proliferated, the tactics began the universities.

01:00:07.680 And then, you know, these elite universities, they nurture the next generation of elites.

01:00:11.820 They go out into our elite institutions.

01:00:14.100 And, you know, a couple years later, you get, like, the New York Times firing its editorial board, the head of its editorial page because he published a Tom Cotton op-ed, right?

01:00:22.520 That pipeline is well sort of documented.

01:00:24.660 So it wasn't just the universities.

01:00:27.020 This extremely toxic, extremely, like, destructive anti-civilizational ideology had been festering in plain sight for a very long time.

01:00:37.480 And all these Republican donors had been giving millions of dollars to these universities while it was happening out in public.

01:00:46.780 They weren't trying to hide it.

01:00:47.660 They were very proud and open about it.

01:00:49.360 And then, yeah, within weeks of October 7th, all of a sudden, like, this was the red line, the conservative donors, the conservative activist groups, the Republican Party itself, all of them.

01:01:00.660 One of the enraging things to me about the sort of post-October 7th response was what it proved was that, like, okay, you guys were actually capable of this all along, right?

01:01:10.300 You could have done it.

01:01:11.700 You had the power to do it, and you chose not to because you didn't care enough about it.

01:01:15.340 And that, to me, is the biggest indictment.

01:01:18.040 It's not the fact that they did what they did October 7th.

01:01:20.780 It's that it showed that, actually, it was a matter of political will.

01:01:23.660 It wasn't a matter of political capacity.

01:01:25.780 They could have done this if they wanted to, and they didn't.

01:01:29.240 And I think that is a profound indictment of the entire conservative movement.

01:01:34.620 Again, it's just like the funding of border walls for foreign countries or the protection of their values.

01:01:39.840 It's not that we can't do this.

01:01:41.120 It's not that we don't know how to do it.

01:01:42.360 It's not that we can't find the money.

01:01:44.080 It's that we explicitly don't want to, and that's the very clear message that's being sent, and it doesn't matter if it's left or right.

01:01:51.700 The answer is always the same.

01:01:53.760 We can't protect you, and that's something that's only going to continue to cause incredible amounts of unrest and agitation among people, and you hope that eventually someone realizes this before things get bad.

01:02:08.180 All right, guys, we're going to go ahead and switch over to the questions of the people, but before we do, where can people find your great work, man?

01:02:16.320 Everything is just on X.

01:02:17.980 I guess that's what we call it now.

01:02:18.980 So I'm at NJHawkman, H-O-C-H-M-A-N, on X.

01:02:24.380 So find me there.

01:02:25.840 I will always call it Twitter.

01:02:28.220 That's my impulse.

01:02:29.280 Also, like you say, you still say people tweet rather than they like X, so I don't know.

01:02:34.220 What is it? 0.87

01:02:34.500 It sounds like everyone's making porn. 0.99

01:02:36.000 It's terrible. 0.99

01:02:36.580 Yeah.

01:02:37.260 What are we doing, Derek?

01:02:38.680 Elon, please stop.

01:02:39.800 All right.

01:02:40.120 So Alexandra Jean says, if the media is here to defend democracy, how is it not just state media propaganda arm for said democracy?

01:02:49.920 It doesn't let you question democracy.

01:02:52.580 Yeah, even better than that, it's not the propaganda arm of.

01:02:55.780 It is the actual power driving, but I think the order, people often call it regime media when they should be calling it media regime.

01:03:04.820 But yeah, I hear you, man.

01:03:06.220 If this is supposed to be defending free speech, but you aren't allowed to actually go ahead and question the things that are happening in the quote unquote democracy, then what are we doing?

01:03:18.120 Yeah, and also, I mean, people have commented on this, but the sort of regime itself is anti anything that could be actually accurately described as democracy, right?

01:03:29.400 So they're not really pro-democracy.

01:03:31.520 Yeah.

01:03:31.940 Not that that is in and of itself the best system, in my opinion.

01:03:35.580 However, the joke is that people pretend that we even still have that.

01:03:39.320 But all right, Creeper Weirder says, but guys, think of the racism that hasn't ended.

01:03:44.820 Yes.

01:03:45.640 Remember, guys, anywhere and everywhere, if there's if someone might do a heck in racism, you must destroy civilization to stop it.

01:03:52.000 That is that is your job as a freedom loving democracy and enjoying America.

01:04:00.300 Creeper Weirder says, are you guys questioning and voting my democracy?

01:04:03.660 Indeed.

01:04:04.220 Indeed.

01:04:04.720 Very, very dangerous behavior.

01:04:06.160 All right, guys.

01:04:07.640 Well, that's everything for today.

01:04:09.120 Thank you once again for listening.

01:04:11.380 Of course, you should be making sure to check out all of Nate's stuff.

01:04:15.420 He does great work.

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01:05:01.600 Thank you, everyone, for coming by.

01:05:02.960 And as always, we'll talk to you next time.

01:05:05.040 We'll see you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - March 27, 2024

The END of Free Speech in Europe ｜ Guest： Nate Hochman ｜ 3⧸27⧸24

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