The Auron MacIntyre Show - March 05, 2025


The Failed Experiment of the Modern State | Guest: Darryl Cooper | 3⧸5⧸25


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 49 minutes

Words per minute

189.27335

Word count

20,726

Sentence count

808

Harmful content

Misogyny

16

sentences flagged

Hate speech

99

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Daryl Cooper joins me on the show to talk about his time at the Department of Defense, his time as a conservative commentator at the New York Times, and what it's like to be denounced by the White House.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.000 When I found out my friend got a great deal
00:00:02.100 on a designer dress from Winners,
00:00:03.740 I started wondering,
00:00:05.380 is every fabulous item I see from Winners?
00:00:08.500 Like that woman over there with the Italian leather handbag. 1.00
00:00:11.460 Is that from Winners?
00:00:12.660 Ooh, or that beautiful silk skirt. 0.99
00:00:15.200 Did she pay full price?
00:00:16.420 Or those suede sneakers?
00:00:18.000 Or that luggage?
00:00:19.100 Or that trench?
00:00:20.220 Those jeans?
00:00:20.920 That jacket?
00:00:21.660 Those heels? 1.00
00:00:22.520 Is anyone paying full price for anything?
00:00:25.480 Stop wondering.
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00:00:27.680 Winners.
00:00:28.060 Find fabulous for less.
00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?
00:00:31.640 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.
00:00:33.360 I've got a great stream with a great guest
00:00:35.040 that I think you're really going to enjoy.
00:00:38.200 Every time I get to talk to Daryl Cooper,
00:00:40.320 we dive into an issue that I think is pretty fascinating.
00:00:43.820 One of the ones that we focused on quite a bit
00:00:46.040 is social organization.
00:00:48.180 What makes a nation?
00:00:49.340 What makes a state?
00:00:50.920 How do states centralize power? 0.72
00:00:52.940 What defines their identity?
00:00:54.980 We were talking a little bit about this on Twitter
00:00:57.640 and we decided it would be better
00:00:59.400 to be part of a longer discussion.
00:01:02.280 So Daryl, thank you so much for joining me, man.
00:01:04.460 Of course.
00:01:04.980 It's always fun.
00:01:06.400 Before we get into this,
00:01:07.780 we haven't talked in a while.
00:01:09.440 A few things have happened
00:01:10.780 since the last time you were on the show.
00:01:14.180 Small smattering of controversy here or there.
00:01:17.400 I know you've probably exhausted this to death,
00:01:22.040 but what was it like kind of having the White House
00:01:26.540 officially denounce you,
00:01:29.400 have this entire, you know,
00:01:31.060 half the conservative commentary turn on you?
00:01:34.220 You know, it seems like a big blow up
00:01:37.580 over kind of just a simple discussion
00:01:40.600 over a historical event.
00:01:42.580 You want to touch on that at all?
00:01:44.580 Yeah, I mean, looking back on it now,
00:01:47.760 I mean, at the time it's kind of surreal, right?
00:01:49.620 And it feels kind of like it's happening to somebody else
00:01:51.640 because, I mean, how do you prepare yourself for that?
00:01:53.920 Unless you're already famous or something,
00:01:57.080 maybe you're kind of already in that world,
00:01:58.400 but to go from just being kind of a normal person
00:02:01.420 who doesn't, you know, get out much
00:02:02.980 to being denounced by the White House
00:02:04.740 and major newspapers all around the Western world
00:02:07.720 was kind of surreal.
00:02:09.360 But, you know, looking back on it now,
00:02:11.500 the experience was really like an overwhelmingly positive one,
00:02:14.820 mainly because, you know,
00:02:17.540 you don't want to do this to your friends
00:02:19.780 if you can help it.
00:02:20.780 But, you know, every once in a while,
00:02:22.480 you get a chance to put everybody you know
00:02:24.160 to a loyalty test, whether they like it or not.
00:02:26.980 And to have everybody that you care about,
00:02:29.060 everybody really honestly that I've ever
00:02:31.180 spoken to face to face or even DMed with,
00:02:34.920 had any kind of like direct personal interaction
00:02:36.960 with every single one of those people
00:02:38.840 was rock solid and stood by me.
00:02:42.400 You know, I guess I was buoyed by the fact
00:02:46.440 that I knew from the very beginning
00:02:50.620 of the controversy that things were already changing
00:02:57.720 in a way that, you know, was sapping away
00:03:01.980 the power of people who were trying to come after me.
00:03:04.220 Like, I knew that.
00:03:05.860 I knew I was on like the leading edge of this change.
00:03:09.320 And so they really didn't scare me.
00:03:11.100 I mean, I know 10 years ago, even 15 years ago,
00:03:15.600 they would have destroyed me.
00:03:17.860 You know, I wouldn't have been able
00:03:18.920 to publish a podcast anywhere.
00:03:20.680 I wouldn't be able to do anything.
00:03:21.900 But I had to go crawling back to my, you know,
00:03:24.960 to my Department of Defense job
00:03:26.640 and hoping that they didn't Google me
00:03:28.280 before they decided whether to rehire me, you know.
00:03:30.480 So, but those people don't have
00:03:32.480 that kind of power anymore.
00:03:33.300 And I think that's a big part
00:03:34.320 of what their temper tantrum was all about, you know.
00:03:37.840 Yeah, it is very strange.
00:03:40.740 Again, you are in this scenario where,
00:03:44.820 again, people can look at your assessment of history,
00:03:48.440 but it feels like you were saying something that,
00:03:51.240 you know, Pat Buchanan and plenty of other people have.
00:03:54.620 Yeah, I think Greg Connolly was talking about,
00:03:56.540 like, this is a perfectly normal revisionist
00:03:59.580 kind of history approach,
00:04:00.780 even from many English historians.
00:04:03.180 But people really blew this out.
00:04:05.280 And I think the reason that you probably had
00:04:07.280 such a resounding kind of affirmation
00:04:10.800 by the people who know you is,
00:04:12.240 I mean, you know, you're great,
00:04:14.320 but you're a bleeding heart, man.
00:04:15.460 Like, you know, anyone who's listened to your work,
00:04:18.760 anyone who's heard you go on at length,
00:04:20.840 you're somebody who cares deeply about the suffering
00:04:22.680 of many different peoples on different sides.
00:04:26.420 Anybody who's paid attention to your content
00:04:28.020 absolutely knows that.
00:04:29.580 And so the assertions being made were just lazy.
00:04:32.880 It felt like a bunch of people, they saw a clip,
00:04:34.940 they know what they're supposed to think
00:04:36.420 when someone shows them a clip like that.
00:04:39.220 And so they just completely respond out of context.
00:04:42.440 But anyone who had the slightest amount of context
00:04:45.100 knows that the people who are making these accusations,
00:04:47.560 it just, it didn't hold up with anything,
00:04:49.460 any of your work, any of your character.
00:04:50.740 So it was, I think it was a pretty odd disconnect
00:04:53.560 for people who were familiar with your work,
00:04:55.160 people who knew you,
00:04:56.020 as opposed to what was being pushed around,
00:04:58.440 especially, again, I think pretty shamefully
00:05:00.700 by a lot of people on the conservative end of things
00:05:03.180 who should know better.
00:05:04.760 Like, this is the side that's been screaming,
00:05:07.780 Trump's a Nazi, Trump's a Hitler.
00:05:09.220 You know, Biden has been calling Trump supporters fascists,
00:05:13.080 so has AOC and all of these other people.
00:05:15.880 This is rhetoric that's deeply baked
00:05:17.500 in the Democratic Party and the left.
00:05:19.220 So you think you'd at least get some kind of hesitation
00:05:22.380 before just immediately throwing it back out
00:05:24.820 as someone who's on the right at this point.
00:05:27.920 Yeah, that's true.
00:05:29.100 But honestly, the people who did that didn't surprise me.
00:05:32.680 You know, they're kind of the people
00:05:33.680 that I would have predicted
00:05:34.520 even before something like that happened.
00:05:36.500 And all the people that, you know,
00:05:38.700 that I would hope would stand for me,
00:05:42.880 like, they didn't just write me private messages
00:05:44.840 saying, like, we got your back or whatever.
00:05:47.120 Like, they were out in public defending me, you know.
00:05:50.280 And there were people, I mean,
00:05:51.800 there were people out there, I won't name any names
00:05:53.360 because I don't want to cause them any more trouble,
00:05:55.040 but there were people, conservative authors,
00:05:58.520 writers that I know who were getting emails
00:06:01.760 from, you know, John Podhoritz,
00:06:04.080 like, high-level, like, donors
00:06:06.240 to the Claremont Institute and everything,
00:06:10.320 telling them that, you know, you've talked to this guy
00:06:12.580 or talked about this guy positively in the past.
00:06:14.560 You need to go out there and denounce him
00:06:16.400 or else you're not writing for this
00:06:17.700 or any other magazine.
00:06:18.900 And they told them to piss off, like, to a man.
00:06:21.780 And I really appreciate that from them,
00:06:24.460 but it's also, like I said,
00:06:26.220 a sign of the changing times, you know,
00:06:28.160 the fact that they knew they could do that.
00:06:31.540 And I still appreciate it, though.
00:06:35.380 Now, interestingly, like, right after this,
00:06:38.180 in a very Daryl way,
00:06:39.900 you decided to immediately launch a series
00:06:43.100 about World War II,
00:06:44.820 and it looks like it's coming, you know,
00:06:46.760 it's going to be centered a lot
00:06:48.020 on the German experience.
00:06:49.660 In fact, you put a video together
00:06:51.480 that, you know, looked like a History Channel
00:06:53.700 trailer to me,
00:06:55.660 but all of a sudden there is this explosion,
00:06:57.700 I think, only because people are already
00:06:59.580 kind of building on this narrative.
00:07:01.580 But a lot of people are like,
00:07:02.980 okay, well, this doesn't show the atrocities
00:07:05.100 of the Nazis, or it doesn't, you know,
00:07:06.900 it just shows them kind of being cool in uniforms
00:07:09.520 and doing military stuff.
00:07:11.900 What's your thought process
00:07:13.320 going right up the kind of the pipe with this again?
00:07:16.480 I know that one of your big themes
00:07:18.620 is trying to get people to understand
00:07:20.680 where people are coming from.
00:07:23.240 Is that ultimately the reason
00:07:25.500 that you decided to follow this?
00:07:26.860 Or is it just kind of the middle finger
00:07:28.680 that had to come anyway?
00:07:29.920 Or you were already building this series?
00:07:31.740 Where did this come from?
00:07:33.000 Yeah, no, I've been doing the background reading
00:07:34.620 for this exact series for some time.
00:07:36.940 And the reason I accelerated it
00:07:39.220 was just because, you know,
00:07:40.880 because of that Tucker interview.
00:07:43.180 I mean, he kind of, you know,
00:07:45.440 yeah, he just narrowed my options.
00:07:47.420 I had to, you know, bear down and focus on it.
00:07:50.620 So, but I've been planning it for a long time,
00:07:52.120 doing a lot of the background reading.
00:07:53.680 And yeah, I mean, you know,
00:07:55.160 this is a, it's a topic that,
00:07:57.820 you know, you can't do a podcast series.
00:08:00.480 Well, let's put it this way.
00:08:01.560 Like, are you familiar with that YouTube channel,
00:08:04.620 The Great War?
00:08:05.760 Yeah.
00:08:06.320 They talk, yeah.
00:08:07.300 So they've got like hundreds of episodes
00:08:08.780 all about World War I.
00:08:10.020 I mean, it's a great channel.
00:08:11.560 But if you wanted to do that with World War II,
00:08:13.500 like that's what you would have to do
00:08:15.140 if you wanted to cover the whole war, right?
00:08:16.820 So anytime that you're covering a topic
00:08:19.240 on which, you know, so much is written.
00:08:22.340 I mean, sometimes when you're dealing
00:08:24.360 with ancient history,
00:08:25.080 you have to figure out how to extrapolate
00:08:26.960 from just a few texts
00:08:28.440 to tell like a broad story.
00:08:31.160 Even in the case of the Israel-Palestine series
00:08:34.960 that I did, you know,
00:08:37.260 it only went up to 1948
00:08:38.580 and I was limited by the fact
00:08:40.100 that I only was able to use
00:08:41.620 English speaking sources.
00:08:43.360 But, you know, with those limits,
00:08:44.920 with that limitation, you know, in mind,
00:08:48.380 I think I read pretty much everything
00:08:50.220 there was about the pre-1948 conflict,
00:08:54.220 you know, between the Israelis 0.69
00:08:55.140 and the Palestinians.
00:08:55.700 I mean, and I could do that.
00:08:57.560 With World War II,
00:08:59.060 you wouldn't get through 1%
00:09:00.600 of what's been written about the war
00:09:02.160 if you spent your whole life doing it.
00:09:03.620 And so you really do have to pick and choose.
00:09:05.400 And by doing that, you know,
00:09:07.240 you could say you're introducing a bias
00:09:10.160 or a slant to it
00:09:11.120 by what you choose to talk about
00:09:13.120 or the sources that you use.
00:09:14.680 And I suppose that's true.
00:09:17.560 But I think, you know, that's okay.
00:09:19.340 Like this isn't supposed to be
00:09:20.480 an objective, broad view
00:09:22.020 of the entire war.
00:09:23.040 I think that everybody's seen
00:09:25.420 the History Channel documentaries.
00:09:27.200 You know, you go on Netflix
00:09:28.080 and there's always four or five documentaries
00:09:30.700 that are, they're all titled something like
00:09:32.960 Hitler, Rise of Evil, Nazis, 0.58
00:09:36.640 you know, doom in Europe,
00:09:37.900 something like that.
00:09:38.780 You know, just the mythological
00:09:40.620 kind of cartoonish stuff,
00:09:42.160 which is, you know,
00:09:44.140 the kind of thing you expect,
00:09:45.800 it's the kind of propaganda
00:09:46.620 you expect to see during a war.
00:09:48.700 But it's, you know,
00:09:50.440 in this particular war,
00:09:51.380 it's persisted for 80 more years.
00:09:53.160 And I think that it's sort of,
00:09:55.140 it's made it so that,
00:09:56.820 you know, people in Western countries
00:09:59.580 or, you know, in the allied countries
00:10:02.420 or Western countries,
00:10:03.400 just, you know,
00:10:05.820 it's the one historical topic
00:10:10.480 that, you know,
00:10:13.100 they're really forbidden
00:10:15.100 and prevented,
00:10:15.860 not just by social penalties
00:10:17.280 or anything like that,
00:10:18.220 but by deeply embedded emotional triggers,
00:10:20.640 you know,
00:10:20.880 that were put in there,
00:10:21.800 put into all of us as small children.
00:10:24.900 But if you start trying to understand
00:10:26.600 the other side's perspective
00:10:27.780 or look at it from a different point of view
00:10:30.680 to treat it like a historical event
00:10:34.140 instead of a mythological event,
00:10:36.400 you know,
00:10:36.960 then there are things like deep in people's gut
00:10:38.860 that tells them like,
00:10:40.020 what you're doing is wrong.
00:10:41.400 Like, you shouldn't be asking these questions.
00:10:43.000 You shouldn't be doing this.
00:10:43.900 And those things were put into us
00:10:45.000 at a very, very early age.
00:10:46.360 And I think when you see things like that,
00:10:49.020 you know, sometimes they're,
00:10:50.720 look, I'm not against social myths,
00:10:54.780 national myths, you know,
00:10:55.800 you need those kinds of things
00:10:57.000 to hold your people together.
00:10:58.260 You need those emotional triggers
00:10:59.720 built into people
00:11:00.660 so that when certain things happen,
00:11:02.880 they respond as a collective,
00:11:04.400 you know,
00:11:04.620 those things are important.
00:11:06.340 But you have to ask
00:11:07.440 what purpose those triggers
00:11:08.900 are being put to.
00:11:10.040 And, you know,
00:11:10.580 maybe through part of the 20th century,
00:11:12.180 you could have made the case
00:11:14.720 that there were some positive things
00:11:16.780 that, you know,
00:11:17.440 were being driven by that myth.
00:11:19.020 You know,
00:11:19.220 it did make people in the West,
00:11:22.500 you know,
00:11:22.680 it didn't stop us from invading countries,
00:11:24.380 but it did sort of
00:11:26.640 delegitimize just aggressive,
00:11:30.640 straightforward imperialism
00:11:32.280 and conquest,
00:11:33.220 territorial conquest
00:11:34.560 and domination of peoples.
00:11:35.980 It did do that.
00:11:36.700 I think it probably made people
00:11:38.920 more tolerant
00:11:40.880 in certain ways
00:11:41.940 of foreigners 0.92
00:11:43.460 and of foreigners in their midst,
00:11:44.960 which is, you know,
00:11:45.960 again,
00:11:47.220 taken to a certain point,
00:11:48.380 which is fine.
00:11:50.740 But now today,
00:11:51.680 I think, you know,
00:11:52.600 you look at it
00:11:53.760 and you say,
00:11:54.160 what is the World War II myth
00:11:55.680 really used for?
00:11:56.720 And it's used for one thing
00:11:57.880 and it's to get us
00:11:58.560 into the next war.
00:12:00.480 That is,
00:12:01.880 you know,
00:12:02.440 it's to get us
00:12:05.120 into the next war
00:12:05.800 and it's to justify
00:12:06.680 the sort of U.S.-led
00:12:08.020 rules-based order
00:12:09.320 that we all
00:12:10.560 labor under today.
00:12:12.420 And to me,
00:12:13.200 those are not
00:12:13.840 noble purposes.
00:12:15.740 And so I think
00:12:16.620 it's time to step back
00:12:17.640 and just,
00:12:18.560 you know,
00:12:18.920 look at the event
00:12:20.340 like a historical event
00:12:21.940 and understand
00:12:22.540 that the Germans,
00:12:23.920 while they,
00:12:25.200 look,
00:12:25.500 people who expect me
00:12:26.820 to just do an apologia
00:12:28.400 for the Third Reich 0.88
00:12:29.600 are going to be very disappointed.
00:12:30.780 I mean,
00:12:31.260 they were fighting
00:12:33.660 that total war
00:12:35.220 on the Eastern Front,
00:12:37.100 you know,
00:12:37.280 the largest war
00:12:38.000 in human history
00:12:38.680 by itself,
00:12:39.740 just the Eastern Front
00:12:40.840 and the,
00:12:41.840 you know,
00:12:42.000 a war of annihilation
00:12:43.040 against a genocidal
00:12:44.100 Soviet Empire.
00:12:45.880 And,
00:12:46.120 you know,
00:12:47.740 the Germans,
00:12:48.440 they did not
00:12:49.620 distinguish themselves
00:12:51.160 in terms of
00:12:52.000 their conduct
00:12:52.760 on the Eastern Front,
00:12:53.940 you know,
00:12:54.160 and whatever you think
00:12:55.760 about causes
00:12:57.440 or,
00:12:58.320 you know,
00:12:58.440 if you like
00:12:58.960 Viktor Suvarov's theory
00:13:00.280 of that the Germans 0.82
00:13:01.560 had to invade
00:13:02.380 because the Soviets
00:13:03.240 were about to invade,
00:13:04.400 whatever,
00:13:05.100 any of those things,
00:13:07.100 you know,
00:13:07.420 when you have
00:13:08.020 documented,
00:13:09.840 you know,
00:13:10.180 documentation of Hitler
00:13:11.420 giving an order
00:13:12.100 that if one of our people
00:13:13.420 is killed by a partisan,
00:13:15.580 then you kill 100 people
00:13:16.920 in that zone.
00:13:18.020 And even,
00:13:18.360 you know,
00:13:18.580 David Irving writes
00:13:19.400 about that order.
00:13:20.720 So,
00:13:20.920 I mean,
00:13:21.060 that,
00:13:21.460 no matter what kind
00:13:22.560 of an apologist
00:13:23.100 you are,
00:13:23.660 like,
00:13:23.920 that's in there.
00:13:24.540 That's a barbaric order
00:13:25.640 to give.
00:13:26.540 And it's a barbaric order
00:13:27.540 for particularly,
00:13:28.680 like,
00:13:28.940 a European,
00:13:29.520 a leader
00:13:30.620 of a European Christian
00:13:31.560 country to give.
00:13:32.500 And we have to be able
00:13:33.260 to talk about that too.
00:13:34.300 So,
00:13:35.100 at the end of the day,
00:13:36.700 though,
00:13:36.860 we have to understand
00:13:37.620 these were people.
00:13:38.700 They weren't demons.
00:13:39.900 Germans didn't suddenly
00:13:40.960 turn into demons
00:13:41.940 for,
00:13:42.900 you know,
00:13:43.260 a dozen years
00:13:44.060 and then revert back
00:13:45.020 to the nice folks
00:13:45.840 that we know now
00:13:46.680 when we visit Germany.
00:13:48.620 They were people
00:13:49.480 and their motives
00:13:50.520 were,
00:13:51.840 they were,
00:13:52.820 they could,
00:13:53.520 they could be understood
00:13:54.560 by us,
00:13:55.280 you know.
00:13:56.260 And,
00:13:56.760 I think what people
00:13:58.720 are kind of afraid of
00:13:59.840 is that,
00:14:00.620 you know,
00:14:01.840 understanding
00:14:02.560 tends to lead
00:14:05.660 to empathy.
00:14:07.140 You know,
00:14:07.680 it's really hard
00:14:08.580 for it
00:14:09.040 to not do that.
00:14:10.900 And I've done that
00:14:11.920 with all of my podcasts
00:14:12.980 and all of my series
00:14:14.020 and I,
00:14:14.440 I sort of pick
00:14:15.600 subjects
00:14:17.780 that it's very hard
00:14:18.880 to do that with,
00:14:19.760 you know,
00:14:20.040 the My Lai Massacre,
00:14:21.240 to paint those guys
00:14:22.080 as human beings,
00:14:22.980 as guys who came over there
00:14:24.240 actually idealistic,
00:14:25.720 thinking they were going
00:14:26.280 to come fight
00:14:26.800 to free the Vietnamese people.
00:14:28.720 Three months
00:14:29.680 before the massacre
00:14:31.900 at My Lai,
00:14:32.660 I mean,
00:14:32.860 they were handing out
00:14:34.080 candy to Vietnamese kids
00:14:35.960 and like really,
00:14:36.740 you know,
00:14:37.000 really loving it,
00:14:37.780 like being in that role.
00:14:39.420 So how do you get
00:14:40.240 from that
00:14:41.080 to the massacre?
00:14:42.400 These are human beings.
00:14:43.280 They didn't get possessed
00:14:44.180 by demons,
00:14:45.000 you know.
00:14:45.600 I did it with Jim Jones.
00:14:46.860 I did it with
00:14:47.560 both the Israeli
00:14:49.180 and the Palestinian sides
00:14:50.480 of that story.
00:14:51.360 But this is the one story
00:14:52.700 that you cannot do that.
00:14:54.460 You're not allowed
00:14:55.000 to do that with.
00:14:55.680 You have not been.
00:14:56.440 And so I think
00:14:58.480 it's time now.
00:14:59.240 I think it's time.
00:15:00.520 You think this would be
00:15:01.440 something that would be
00:15:02.000 a little more obvious
00:15:02.600 to people?
00:15:03.040 I mean,
00:15:03.160 didn't the Canadian
00:15:03.760 Parliament recently
00:15:04.860 honor a Nazi soldier
00:15:06.900 for fighting Russia?
00:15:08.860 I mean,
00:15:09.440 you know,
00:15:09.780 the context of that
00:15:10.940 matters, right?
00:15:11.820 Like there's a reason
00:15:12.680 that guy is a Nazi soldier
00:15:13.960 given that context,
00:15:15.240 but he is aligned
00:15:16.860 with Nazi Germany
00:15:17.700 at that time
00:15:18.580 and the Canadian
00:15:19.520 Parliament's out there
00:15:20.360 being like,
00:15:20.780 but he fought the Russians
00:15:22.360 so therefore,
00:15:23.240 you know,
00:15:23.620 you know,
00:15:24.280 give this guy a medal.
00:15:25.320 I mean,
00:15:26.240 the point is,
00:15:27.300 of course,
00:15:27.760 if you look back
00:15:28.760 at, say,
00:15:29.840 Julius Caesar,
00:15:30.760 you know,
00:15:31.080 enslaved or murdered,
00:15:32.740 you know,
00:15:32.980 what,
00:15:33.460 murdered like a million Gauls, 0.99
00:15:34.500 enslaved another million,
00:15:35.340 something like that,
00:15:35.980 right?
00:15:36.600 Yeah,
00:15:37.180 obviously,
00:15:38.460 something that's very bad,
00:15:40.000 right?
00:15:40.220 But ultimately,
00:15:41.200 if you were to write
00:15:42.780 a book about Julius Caesar
00:15:44.100 or put on a show
00:15:45.520 or play by Julius Caesar,
00:15:46.900 no one would expect
00:15:47.720 that you were advocating
00:15:49.040 for slavery
00:15:49.940 and the genocide
00:15:51.060 of a million Gauls,
00:15:52.860 right?
00:15:53.020 Like,
00:15:53.220 that's obviously
00:15:53.960 not the context there.
00:15:55.480 You could just dress up
00:15:56.500 as Julius Caesar
00:15:57.160 for,
00:15:57.480 you know,
00:15:58.180 Halloween
00:15:58.500 and no one would care,
00:15:59.660 right?
00:16:00.140 And yet,
00:16:00.800 you look at Hitler 0.66
00:16:01.740 who obviously
00:16:02.600 was a terrible person
00:16:04.100 but is a terrible person
00:16:05.540 in a historical context.
00:16:07.280 You know,
00:16:07.400 he's doing terrible things
00:16:08.640 but he's doing them
00:16:09.640 in a historical context
00:16:10.640 and understanding that
00:16:12.080 is as important
00:16:13.020 as understanding
00:16:13.580 any other period
00:16:14.580 of history.
00:16:15.300 We look at
00:16:16.300 the Armenian genocide,
00:16:17.980 right?
00:16:18.320 And this is something
00:16:19.380 that we almost never
00:16:21.000 talk about
00:16:21.560 at this point.
00:16:22.300 It's a precursor
00:16:23.000 to the Holocaust 0.94
00:16:23.700 but we don't talk
00:16:24.960 about the Turks
00:16:26.060 as demons,
00:16:26.880 right?
00:16:27.020 We don't talk
00:16:27.480 about the eternal evil
00:16:29.380 of the Turk
00:16:30.140 and how that ultimately
00:16:31.560 they have to be like,
00:16:32.760 you know,
00:16:33.280 wiped off the face
00:16:35.320 of the earth
00:16:35.760 in order to,
00:16:36.680 you know,
00:16:37.100 somehow atone for this.
00:16:39.160 I mean,
00:16:39.380 really,
00:16:39.980 ultimately,
00:16:40.440 a lot of this came
00:16:41.280 with mechanization
00:16:43.280 and scale
00:16:43.860 and that's what
00:16:44.780 took these tragedies
00:16:46.220 which have existed
00:16:46.940 throughout history
00:16:47.620 into astronomical numbers
00:16:50.400 and a level
00:16:51.340 of dehumanization
00:16:52.200 that we haven't seen
00:16:53.320 previously
00:16:53.840 and as you're well aware,
00:16:55.560 dehumanization
00:16:56.200 of any people
00:16:57.100 is always the most
00:16:58.240 dangerous thing
00:16:59.260 to enable atrocities.
00:17:00.680 So you think ultimately,
00:17:02.180 especially as a country
00:17:03.320 that seems to be,
00:17:04.660 you know,
00:17:05.380 got dangerously close
00:17:06.520 to dancing
00:17:07.060 with a lot of Weimar problems,
00:17:08.800 you would probably
00:17:09.380 want to understand
00:17:10.260 what happened there,
00:17:11.580 right?
00:17:11.820 Even if you know
00:17:12.620 ultimately what happened
00:17:14.160 involved a large amount
00:17:15.580 of evil,
00:17:15.980 you would want to
00:17:16.920 understand that context
00:17:17.980 because that's the only way
00:17:19.660 in which you avoid
00:17:20.900 those outcomes again.
00:17:22.700 We hope you're enjoying
00:17:23.640 your Air Canada flight.
00:17:24.940 Rocky's vacation,
00:17:26.180 here we come.
00:17:27.680 Whoa,
00:17:28.320 is this economy?
00:17:29.780 Free beer,
00:17:30.560 wine,
00:17:31.040 and snacks.
00:17:32.260 Sweet! 0.95
00:17:33.340 Fast free Wi-Fi
00:17:34.300 means I can make
00:17:35.000 dinner reservations
00:17:35.740 before we land.
00:17:37.360 And with live TV,
00:17:38.660 I'm not missing the game.
00:17:40.160 It's kind of like
00:17:41.200 I'm already on vacation.
00:17:43.620 Nice! 0.94
00:17:44.700 On behalf of Air Canada,
00:17:46.080 nice travels.
00:17:47.860 Wi-Fi available
00:17:48.560 to Airplane members
00:17:49.320 on Equipped Flight
00:17:49.840 sponsored by Bell.
00:17:50.640 Conditions apply.
00:17:51.340 See AirCanada.com.
00:17:52.900 Yeah, that's right.
00:17:53.760 And I mean,
00:17:54.020 it might be something
00:17:54.620 that we think
00:17:55.160 we're immune to today,
00:17:56.280 but I mean,
00:17:57.860 all you have to do
00:17:58.400 is look at the way
00:17:59.100 half the country
00:17:59.860 has been talking
00:18:00.460 about Russia
00:18:01.040 for the last several years.
00:18:02.800 And, you know,
00:18:03.240 it's not the whole country
00:18:04.400 and probably the partisan
00:18:05.960 split in our country
00:18:07.100 has maybe helped
00:18:08.560 pull us back
00:18:09.280 from the brink on that
00:18:10.360 because, you know,
00:18:11.060 it's really hard
00:18:11.780 to get the whole country
00:18:12.940 to agree on something
00:18:13.800 so passionately about
00:18:14.860 something like that
00:18:17.400 these days.
00:18:18.540 And that's probably
00:18:19.180 a good thing
00:18:20.460 in that case.
00:18:22.120 But yeah,
00:18:22.760 I mean,
00:18:22.940 you see people,
00:18:23.800 you know,
00:18:24.220 I mean,
00:18:24.660 you even have like
00:18:25.820 government officials,
00:18:28.320 you know,
00:18:28.480 it was,
00:18:29.320 what's his name,
00:18:31.120 the pirate,
00:18:31.960 Crenshaw.
00:18:32.840 Crenshaw like tweeted out,
00:18:35.040 you know,
00:18:35.700 this is a U.S.
00:18:37.340 congressman
00:18:37.820 tweeting out
00:18:38.320 to the whole world
00:18:39.160 that he doesn't see
00:18:40.560 how anybody
00:18:41.080 can be complaining
00:18:41.880 about our support
00:18:42.780 for Ukraine
00:18:43.400 because we get
00:18:44.340 to kill Russian soldiers
00:18:45.680 and all it costs us
00:18:46.800 is money.
00:18:48.280 It's like,
00:18:49.080 what kind of a thing
00:18:50.840 is that to say?
00:18:51.500 I mean,
00:18:51.600 just from a diplomatic
00:18:52.600 perspective,
00:18:53.420 first of all,
00:18:53.900 but just also like
00:18:54.740 a human perspective,
00:18:55.760 like,
00:18:56.640 you know,
00:18:56.860 imagine if,
00:18:57.560 if,
00:18:57.800 if when we were in Iraq
00:18:59.160 and,
00:19:00.540 and you could make the case
00:19:01.540 that Russia 0.72
00:19:02.460 has a lot more
00:19:03.420 legitimate interest
00:19:05.200 in Ukraine
00:19:05.740 than we ever had
00:19:06.500 in Iraq
00:19:07.080 that was worth
00:19:07.620 fighting over
00:19:08.200 that might justify
00:19:09.160 an invasion
00:19:09.720 if you're going to rank them.
00:19:10.700 but if we were in Iraq
00:19:12.440 and we found out
00:19:13.280 that the Russians
00:19:14.260 were like fully supporting
00:19:15.820 with,
00:19:16.100 you know,
00:19:16.640 long range rocket artillery
00:19:18.600 and air defense
00:19:19.740 and intelligence
00:19:20.980 telling them
00:19:21.560 where to kill
00:19:22.160 our generals,
00:19:23.140 kill our, 0.98
00:19:23.720 you know,
00:19:24.040 envoys
00:19:24.620 and Russian politicians
00:19:26.680 are just out there
00:19:27.520 saying,
00:19:27.820 yeah,
00:19:27.900 we're doing this
00:19:28.520 because we get
00:19:29.060 to kill Americans. 0.81
00:19:30.180 That's the reason.
00:19:31.900 We'd hate them
00:19:32.660 for a hundred years
00:19:33.500 and we,
00:19:33.860 and we should.
00:19:34.720 And it's just,
00:19:35.860 it's just totally
00:19:36.500 irresponsible.
00:19:37.200 And you can't,
00:19:38.700 you know,
00:19:39.820 when you get to a point
00:19:40.980 where public officials
00:19:41.840 feel comfortable
00:19:42.720 talking about
00:19:43.520 other people like that
00:19:44.380 and forget the fact
00:19:45.040 that Russia has 0.74
00:19:45.680 nuclear weapons
00:19:46.520 and all that,
00:19:47.060 I mean,
00:19:47.160 that's another layer
00:19:47.860 to it.
00:19:48.160 But any people,
00:19:49.000 when public officials
00:19:50.260 start talking like that,
00:19:51.740 it's really very dangerous.
00:19:53.120 And the only thing
00:19:53.780 that,
00:19:54.120 you know,
00:19:54.460 I think that kept us
00:19:56.160 out of a much larger
00:19:57.080 conflagration,
00:19:57.940 at least so far,
00:19:59.540 you know,
00:19:59.920 is that there were,
00:20:02.720 well,
00:20:03.280 first of all,
00:20:03.900 just the fact
00:20:04.440 that they can't
00:20:05.240 control the narrative
00:20:06.280 as strongly
00:20:06.900 as they used
00:20:08.160 to be able to
00:20:08.840 and that there
00:20:09.280 are those of us
00:20:09.940 who from the very
00:20:10.540 beginning,
00:20:11.720 you know,
00:20:13.540 just question the wisdom
00:20:15.080 of us being involved
00:20:16.020 in this
00:20:16.400 and question our
00:20:16.940 responsibility
00:20:17.440 for the whole thing.
00:20:18.540 And,
00:20:18.780 you know,
00:20:20.380 I'm very glad for that
00:20:21.380 because I think
00:20:22.700 if people like
00:20:23.540 Crenshaw had their way,
00:20:24.700 I mean,
00:20:25.420 there'd be Americans 0.96
00:20:26.200 dying in this thing too.
00:20:28.260 Oh,
00:20:28.620 yeah,
00:20:29.060 100%.
00:20:29.720 And obviously,
00:20:30.740 as you pointed out,
00:20:31.940 one of the reasons
00:20:32.640 that this whole thing
00:20:33.620 is so dangerous
00:20:34.400 is that every time
00:20:35.700 we hear we gotta
00:20:36.780 put boots on the ground,
00:20:37.880 we gotta start
00:20:38.440 killing people, 0.96
00:20:39.080 it's always
00:20:40.080 the World War II
00:20:41.240 analogy,
00:20:41.800 right?
00:20:42.040 Everyone is Chamberlain,
00:20:43.800 everyone is,
00:20:44.920 you know,
00:20:46.000 Hitler. 0.57
00:20:47.240 Trump is somehow
00:20:48.060 both Chamberlain
00:20:48.800 and Churchill
00:20:49.440 simultaneously,
00:20:50.480 or Chamberlain
00:20:51.220 and Hitler 0.82
00:20:52.420 simultaneously.
00:20:53.360 He has this amazing
00:20:54.240 ability to occupy
00:20:55.540 both historical roles.
00:20:57.460 And so this is
00:20:58.040 just a narrative,
00:20:58.740 like you said,
00:20:59.180 that's used
00:20:59.900 to bludgeon people
00:21:00.900 to death. 0.75
00:21:01.780 But that said,
00:21:03.100 you know,
00:21:03.420 rehashing a bunch
00:21:04.140 of a controversy
00:21:05.180 that has nothing
00:21:05.740 to do,
00:21:06.520 more or less,
00:21:07.500 with what we were
00:21:08.000 actually supposed
00:21:08.480 to get to today.
00:21:09.480 Let's dive into
00:21:10.240 the actual topic.
00:21:11.580 So what you were
00:21:12.740 talking about on Twitter
00:21:13.800 was the way in which
00:21:15.120 the modern state
00:21:16.480 was a experiment
00:21:20.120 in basically getting rid
00:21:21.860 of all the things
00:21:22.940 that had bound
00:21:24.680 civilizations together
00:21:26.400 previously,
00:21:27.200 things like language,
00:21:29.100 religion,
00:21:29.720 heritage,
00:21:30.880 culture,
00:21:31.800 custom,
00:21:32.560 all these things
00:21:33.520 that had traditionally
00:21:34.640 been the social fabric
00:21:36.480 that really let
00:21:37.800 people look across
00:21:38.920 the street
00:21:39.440 and recognize
00:21:40.160 themselves in someone,
00:21:42.080 do business,
00:21:43.040 you know,
00:21:43.220 have a culture
00:21:44.640 in which they
00:21:45.140 understood each other,
00:21:46.840 they shared a moral vision,
00:21:48.360 a substrate from which
00:21:49.660 the rest of their civilization
00:21:50.880 could truly arise.
00:21:52.120 And ultimately,
00:21:53.460 that this vision
00:21:54.640 had failed,
00:21:55.460 that what we're seeing
00:21:56.360 now is kind of
00:21:57.540 a large-scale failure
00:21:58.980 behavior to attempt this.
00:22:00.660 And I had kind of replied
00:22:02.540 with, you know,
00:22:03.980 that this isn't
00:22:05.020 a particularly unique,
00:22:05.980 this is a modern
00:22:06.780 variation of it,
00:22:07.900 but it's not unique.
00:22:08.660 You want to lay out
00:22:09.460 a little more about
00:22:10.240 kind of what you think
00:22:11.500 about the modern state
00:22:12.220 and its experiment,
00:22:12.860 and we can kind of
00:22:13.540 just build on that
00:22:14.520 from there?
00:22:16.260 Yeah, you know,
00:22:16.940 I wonder if it's a function
00:22:18.260 of the state itself
00:22:19.500 or if it,
00:22:20.980 you know,
00:22:21.180 the reason I say that
00:22:23.380 is, you know,
00:22:25.040 it's very interesting
00:22:25.920 that it only really
00:22:27.020 seems to be happening
00:22:28.060 in European-majority countries
00:22:30.980 and specifically really
00:22:32.700 like Western European
00:22:33.820 and Anglo countries.
00:22:35.600 It doesn't even really
00:22:37.120 seem to have taken hold
00:22:38.420 in, you know,
00:22:39.260 the former Eastern Bloc.
00:22:40.640 Those are people
00:22:41.200 who really don't mind
00:22:42.060 still saying that
00:22:43.280 Hungary is a country
00:22:44.240 for Hungarian people,
00:22:45.520 it's a Christian country,
00:22:46.600 et cetera.
00:22:47.740 And so I think
00:22:50.300 when you have a sort
00:22:51.300 of a side-by-side
00:22:53.400 like that,
00:22:54.160 you know,
00:22:54.560 Christian Europeans
00:22:55.320 and Christian Europeans
00:22:56.380 and you have them
00:22:57.720 go to just diametrically
00:23:00.360 opposed ways
00:23:01.080 in a short period of time,
00:23:02.220 I think that's
00:23:02.740 a useful experiment,
00:23:04.000 you know,
00:23:04.360 to sort of explore.
00:23:06.380 But, you know,
00:23:07.700 like I don't think
00:23:08.360 any of us could
00:23:08.960 really imagine,
00:23:10.000 like China's 0.99
00:23:10.880 a developed state,
00:23:11.680 it's a modern state.
00:23:12.980 I don't think
00:23:13.780 any of us could imagine
00:23:14.800 China just deciding 0.86
00:23:16.020 that, you know,
00:23:18.160 their Han Chinese 0.97
00:23:19.300 majority doesn't
00:23:20.140 matter and people
00:23:21.240 don't need to be,
00:23:22.240 they don't need
00:23:22.560 to speak Chinese
00:23:23.500 or care about,
00:23:24.960 you just really
00:23:25.480 can't imagine that
00:23:26.360 in Japan or China
00:23:27.320 or really anywhere else.
00:23:28.240 It's something
00:23:28.640 pretty specific to us.
00:23:30.040 So whether it has
00:23:31.520 to do with just
00:23:32.500 a natural development
00:23:34.100 of the modern state
00:23:34.940 when it reaches
00:23:35.440 a certain level
00:23:36.100 of maturity
00:23:36.580 or if it's maybe
00:23:38.560 a mix of that
00:23:39.500 and our particular
00:23:40.500 culture that we've
00:23:41.620 developed over here
00:23:42.440 even very recently
00:23:43.380 is maybe an open question.
00:23:46.340 I was interested
00:23:47.000 in your point
00:23:47.860 that you just brought up,
00:23:49.560 which is,
00:23:50.580 you know,
00:23:50.780 when you said,
00:23:52.600 I can't remember
00:23:53.600 exactly the way
00:23:54.180 you put it,
00:23:54.660 but that it was,
00:23:55.280 yeah,
00:23:55.420 that it's not unique
00:23:56.160 and this is something
00:23:56.720 that happens
00:23:57.320 when states reach
00:23:58.100 a certain level
00:23:59.200 of development
00:23:59.760 or something.
00:24:00.380 It sounds like
00:24:00.980 more deterministic
00:24:01.940 than I would expect
00:24:02.620 from somebody
00:24:03.180 who subscribes
00:24:04.740 to elite theory.
00:24:05.660 So I was interested
00:24:06.320 in hearing you
00:24:06.900 expound on that.
00:24:08.500 Sure.
00:24:09.000 So the main thing
00:24:10.040 is that there's
00:24:10.860 the combination
00:24:11.720 of factors
00:24:12.660 that you kind of
00:24:13.220 pointed to there.
00:24:14.260 There's our own
00:24:15.000 cultural disposition
00:24:16.140 and the way
00:24:16.640 in which we've decided
00:24:17.780 to arrange identity
00:24:19.280 in kind of
00:24:20.240 a post-enlightenment West,
00:24:22.000 which is built,
00:24:23.600 stacked on top
00:24:24.600 of metaphysics
00:24:26.220 of power
00:24:26.800 that I think
00:24:27.700 to be accurate
00:24:28.360 from,
00:24:29.480 you know,
00:24:29.740 I think Bertrand de Juvenal
00:24:30.780 is probably the best
00:24:31.640 at laying this out,
00:24:33.500 but we can see
00:24:34.020 this echoed
00:24:34.540 all over the place.
00:24:35.460 Oswald Spangler,
00:24:37.240 Alexander Dugan,
00:24:38.380 you know,
00:24:38.820 like many people
00:24:40.300 have iterated
00:24:41.140 on this,
00:24:42.240 you know,
00:24:43.240 this phenomenon.
00:24:45.080 Basically,
00:24:45.920 have you read
00:24:47.120 The Ancient City?
00:24:47.800 Have you read
00:24:48.220 Colange's?
00:24:48.800 Oh, yeah.
00:24:49.500 Yeah, yeah.
00:24:50.340 So he kind of actually,
00:24:52.040 and I'm sure
00:24:52.560 he didn't mean this
00:24:53.340 because it happened,
00:24:53.980 you know,
00:24:54.180 hundreds of years
00:24:54.700 before de Juvenal
00:24:56.020 wrote on power,
00:24:56.860 but it's actually
00:24:57.560 a great illustration
00:24:58.460 of exactly
00:24:59.200 the metaphysics
00:25:00.040 of power
00:25:00.420 that de Juvenal
00:25:00.980 is laying out,
00:25:01.740 right?
00:25:01.940 In that book,
00:25:02.580 he talks about
00:25:03.700 how Roman
00:25:04.780 and Greek societies
00:25:05.760 begin as incredibly
00:25:07.020 tribal,
00:25:07.760 familial,
00:25:08.640 you know,
00:25:09.560 civilizations
00:25:10.840 and then in order
00:25:12.280 to scale up,
00:25:13.800 right,
00:25:14.000 first you need
00:25:14.560 to move beyond
00:25:15.500 the tribe,
00:25:16.380 you know,
00:25:16.900 to the kind of
00:25:17.380 the city
00:25:17.800 and then beyond
00:25:18.700 the city
00:25:19.180 to, you know,
00:25:20.100 other forms
00:25:21.040 of empire
00:25:21.680 or governance.
00:25:22.880 In every level
00:25:24.280 of this,
00:25:24.720 basically,
00:25:25.040 you have to
00:25:25.720 break down
00:25:26.380 previous identities
00:25:27.720 and we actually
00:25:28.320 kind of touched
00:25:28.780 on this
00:25:29.060 in one of our
00:25:29.780 previous conversations
00:25:31.260 about the need
00:25:32.400 of the state
00:25:32.820 to collapse
00:25:33.420 familial responsibilities
00:25:34.920 and loyalties,
00:25:36.000 right?
00:25:36.500 And that's the only
00:25:37.420 way that you can
00:25:38.240 ultimately create
00:25:39.240 another level
00:25:40.080 of organization.
00:25:40.920 You have to
00:25:41.620 free people
00:25:42.220 from these
00:25:42.820 pre-political
00:25:44.000 obligations
00:25:45.240 if you want
00:25:46.180 them to
00:25:46.740 fully embrace
00:25:48.120 your more
00:25:49.020 artificial and
00:25:49.820 abstract identity.
00:25:51.960 And again,
00:25:52.820 this is something
00:25:53.480 that you see
00:25:54.460 over and over,
00:25:55.440 but specifically,
00:25:56.280 of course,
00:25:56.640 Rome famously.
00:25:57.780 At one point,
00:25:58.220 you had to fight
00:25:58.820 a war to become
00:25:59.900 a Roman citizen,
00:26:00.920 right?
00:26:01.140 You needed to have
00:26:02.300 the Latin wars
00:26:03.260 for those residents
00:26:04.820 of Italy
00:26:05.340 to become Roman.
00:26:06.740 And by the end,
00:26:07.480 you had Roman 0.59
00:26:08.100 emperors like
00:26:08.640 Caracal just hoping
00:26:09.400 that they could
00:26:09.820 throw out Roman 1.00
00:26:10.460 citizenship as a
00:26:11.780 way to unify
00:26:12.440 the larger empire,
00:26:13.680 right?
00:26:13.920 It lost any of
00:26:15.400 its city-state
00:26:16.620 connotations or
00:26:17.840 its core ethnic
00:26:18.920 connotations and
00:26:20.240 instead become
00:26:21.080 this kind of
00:26:21.980 superstructure that
00:26:23.300 was an ideology
00:26:24.640 attempting to
00:26:25.300 hold a vast
00:26:26.440 and differentiated
00:26:27.600 populations together.
00:26:29.560 And so I do
00:26:30.280 think that what
00:26:31.700 we're seeing in
00:26:33.020 modern day is an
00:26:34.400 extension of that
00:26:35.140 metaphysics of power,
00:26:36.160 right?
00:26:36.460 Like, you have
00:26:37.300 to strip out
00:26:37.900 these lower-level
00:26:39.220 identities and
00:26:40.560 attempt to, if you
00:26:41.460 want to scale up,
00:26:42.200 if you want to
00:26:42.540 organize at higher
00:26:43.800 levels, simultaneously
00:26:45.020 our Enlightenment
00:26:46.360 understanding of
00:26:47.580 discarding a lot of
00:26:48.700 these previous
00:26:49.440 identities is also
00:26:50.880 useful in that.
00:26:51.740 And so one could
00:26:52.340 say that the, you
00:26:53.900 know, the
00:26:54.620 philosophical
00:26:55.180 development became
00:26:57.240 advantageous to a
00:26:59.200 material interest,
00:27:00.140 or you could say
00:27:01.260 that the, you
00:27:02.220 know, that
00:27:02.480 development of that
00:27:04.100 philosophical
00:27:04.680 abstraction,
00:27:06.000 allowed for a
00:27:07.120 higher level of
00:27:07.800 scaling than had
00:27:09.040 ever existed
00:27:09.660 previously.
00:27:10.580 It's kind of its
00:27:11.520 own technological
00:27:12.240 development in a
00:27:13.180 political realm.
00:27:14.260 But I think the
00:27:15.560 answer is a little
00:27:16.180 bit of both of
00:27:16.840 those, and that
00:27:17.400 kind of brings us
00:27:18.260 to the modern
00:27:19.260 condition.
00:27:19.920 It's a pattern
00:27:20.580 that's repeated
00:27:21.300 throughout history,
00:27:22.440 but it's something
00:27:23.100 that has reached
00:27:24.540 its current zenith
00:27:26.020 due to our
00:27:27.220 technological and
00:27:28.740 sociological
00:27:29.520 developments.
00:27:31.420 Yeah, and I
00:27:31.700 wonder, too, you
00:27:32.720 know, I mean,
00:27:33.020 it's something that
00:27:33.880 it's something
00:27:37.140 that has
00:27:38.420 probably been
00:27:39.180 with Americans
00:27:39.920 since the very
00:27:41.020 beginning, you
00:27:41.720 know, in the
00:27:42.340 sense that
00:27:42.920 Get unlimited
00:27:45.140 grocery delivery
00:27:46.080 with PC
00:27:46.620 Express Pass.
00:27:47.840 Meal prep,
00:27:48.880 delivered.
00:27:49.760 Snacks, delivered.
00:27:51.620 Fresh fruit,
00:27:52.660 delivered.
00:27:53.580 Grocery delivery
00:27:54.260 on repeat for
00:27:55.340 just $2.50 a
00:27:56.820 month.
00:27:57.320 Learn more at
00:27:57.900 pcexpress.ca.
00:27:59.740 I mean, we know
00:28:00.920 when we look at a
00:28:01.660 map, but I think
00:28:02.520 it's hard to put
00:28:03.560 ourselves back into
00:28:04.600 the 17th and
00:28:06.120 18th century mindset
00:28:07.420 to really understand
00:28:09.120 what a vast, vast
00:28:10.560 territory the United
00:28:12.000 States is.
00:28:12.620 I mean, it's just,
00:28:13.580 if you compare it to
00:28:14.380 like European 0.94
00:28:14.980 nation states, and
00:28:17.280 I mean, it's so
00:28:18.820 huge.
00:28:19.360 And like, you can
00:28:19.880 look at Russia. 0.66
00:28:21.020 That was a giant
00:28:21.900 empire for all of
00:28:22.900 its, you know, for
00:28:24.120 all of its history.
00:28:25.160 So, you know, they
00:28:26.200 had the Russians,
00:28:27.420 sure, but, you
00:28:28.480 know, they had the
00:28:29.040 Kazakhs over there 0.91
00:28:29.920 and the Mongols and 0.58
00:28:30.800 so forth over there.
00:28:31.860 And there was an
00:28:32.760 empire that ruled
00:28:33.540 over all these
00:28:34.160 different peoples who
00:28:35.000 kind of were
00:28:35.640 self-governing to a
00:28:36.660 large extent and had
00:28:37.620 their own territory
00:28:38.520 officially or unofficially
00:28:39.640 and so forth.
00:28:40.740 Over here in America,
00:28:41.460 we weren't an empire,
00:28:42.700 like, you know,
00:28:43.280 technically we didn't
00:28:43.900 think of ourselves
00:28:44.500 that way.
00:28:45.460 But if we were
00:28:46.380 going to ever
00:28:47.120 populate this
00:28:47.960 continent and not
00:28:48.820 have it, you
00:28:49.940 know, split up by
00:28:50.640 the French and
00:28:51.200 the Spanish and
00:28:51.940 whoever else, if
00:28:52.680 we were going to
00:28:53.060 actually go push to
00:28:54.160 the Pacific Ocean and
00:28:55.280 hold on to this
00:28:56.060 continental country,
00:28:58.520 we needed a ton of
00:28:59.400 people and there
00:29:00.000 weren't enough
00:29:00.420 English people to
00:29:01.340 come do it.
00:29:01.860 We needed people
00:29:02.460 from all over
00:29:03.640 Europe to populate
00:29:04.640 this country.
00:29:05.680 And when you go
00:29:06.100 back to, you
00:29:07.400 know, those days,
00:29:09.620 you know, it was
00:29:11.440 not some simple
00:29:12.180 thing like we think
00:29:12.960 of it today to
00:29:13.860 bring Irish and
00:29:15.280 English people into
00:29:16.240 the same city and
00:29:17.500 say, play nice
00:29:18.200 together and
00:29:18.900 participate as
00:29:19.880 equals in our
00:29:20.580 democratic political
00:29:21.440 system or to
00:29:22.520 bring Jews in from, 0.96
00:29:23.580 you know, Eastern
00:29:24.340 Europe and to
00:29:25.040 bring just all
00:29:26.540 these different
00:29:27.020 people that were
00:29:27.840 that were at the
00:29:28.640 time, you know,
00:29:29.360 again, we don't
00:29:30.440 think of them as
00:29:31.020 much today, but at
00:29:31.760 the time we're
00:29:32.200 radically different
00:29:32.920 from each other
00:29:33.500 and their identities
00:29:34.240 were often rooted
00:29:35.800 in their animosity
00:29:37.240 toward each other,
00:29:38.300 you know.
00:29:38.960 And so we had to
00:29:40.020 like bring those
00:29:41.440 people over here to
00:29:42.140 fill the continent,
00:29:42.780 but we weren't
00:29:43.760 building an empire.
00:29:44.760 So, you know, there
00:29:45.320 was a time I think
00:29:46.100 back in the, it
00:29:46.800 was like the, it
00:29:48.740 was like the mid
00:29:49.320 18th century when
00:29:50.720 some Irish were,
00:29:54.500 it might have been
00:29:54.940 the early 1800s
00:29:55.780 actually, they were
00:29:56.360 asking for a big
00:29:57.780 chunk of land over
00:29:58.640 in the Pacific
00:29:59.140 Northwest and they 0.86
00:29:59.980 could go make like a
00:30:00.820 mini Ireland that
00:30:01.660 would be a
00:30:02.020 confederation with
00:30:02.900 the United States
00:30:03.600 or something.
00:30:04.400 You know, we were
00:30:04.880 never going to do
00:30:05.460 that.
00:30:05.980 We took the
00:30:07.120 attitude from the
00:30:07.720 very beginning that
00:30:08.760 we got to be able to
00:30:09.400 take all these
00:30:10.100 people who are so
00:30:11.480 radically different
00:30:12.200 from each other,
00:30:12.880 different religions,
00:30:14.440 different sects of
00:30:15.240 Christianity, different 1.00
00:30:16.040 language, mutual
00:30:17.220 national hatreds, a lot
00:30:18.640 of them come over
00:30:19.260 here and we've got to
00:30:19.960 turn all those
00:30:20.640 people into
00:30:21.180 Americans and we
00:30:24.440 had to believe that
00:30:25.460 that was possible in
00:30:26.960 order for us to get
00:30:28.240 where we got today.
00:30:29.060 We wouldn't, if we
00:30:30.160 didn't believe those
00:30:31.020 things, then we
00:30:32.420 wouldn't, America
00:30:33.060 wouldn't be here
00:30:33.600 today in the form it
00:30:34.360 is.
00:30:34.680 You know, we might
00:30:35.120 be 13 colonies or
00:30:36.260 13 states on the
00:30:37.260 East Coast.
00:30:38.460 And so, you know, I
00:30:40.900 think, you know, one
00:30:41.900 of the things that
00:30:42.540 I've noticed as I've
00:30:44.560 been doing the World
00:30:45.160 War I and II
00:30:46.280 research is, you
00:30:47.780 know, the danger
00:30:48.700 of, you know,
00:30:51.620 having top-down
00:30:53.280 like purpose,
00:30:54.220 specific purpose
00:30:55.260 driven propaganda
00:30:56.260 that you start to
00:30:58.820 buy into yourself
00:30:59.900 and when the
00:31:00.360 purpose for which it
00:31:01.160 was created is no
00:31:02.220 longer around or
00:31:03.160 relevant, you still
00:31:04.400 believe it and it
00:31:05.220 just keeps on
00:31:06.200 driving your decisions
00:31:07.200 long past the
00:31:08.000 expiration point.
00:31:09.740 And we've kind of,
00:31:11.440 yeah, and so we
00:31:12.760 kind of have done
00:31:13.800 that in the United
00:31:14.980 States where we've
00:31:17.320 taken this just
00:31:18.240 radical openness
00:31:19.480 which, you know, we
00:31:21.100 had to be if we
00:31:21.960 were going to
00:31:22.520 populate this
00:31:23.260 continent and create
00:31:24.800 a nation out of
00:31:25.500 it.
00:31:27.260 But now the
00:31:28.000 continent's full and
00:31:29.040 our economy is
00:31:29.880 mature and we
00:31:31.660 don't need, you
00:31:32.580 know, we're
00:31:32.780 transitioning away 1.00
00:31:33.740 from like a mass
00:31:34.560 industrial economy
00:31:35.520 to information and
00:31:36.520 other economies and
00:31:38.100 yet we, you know,
00:31:39.720 it's like a spigot we
00:31:40.480 can't turn off at
00:31:41.280 this point.
00:31:42.400 You know, even
00:31:42.840 conservatives, like,
00:31:43.820 you see that, I
00:31:47.180 mean, take like the
00:31:48.200 most, if you were
00:31:48.900 to go to Stephen
00:31:49.440 Miller, you know, or
00:31:50.340 whoever presents as
00:31:51.500 like a radical
00:31:52.540 conservative on the
00:31:53.480 immigration question,
00:31:54.480 for example, they're
00:31:55.800 not talking, none of
00:31:56.720 them are talking about
00:31:57.680 legal immigration.
00:31:59.640 Like, that's just not
00:32:00.300 even on the menu.
00:32:01.280 For them, this is a
00:32:01.980 law enforcement issue.
00:32:03.140 We can't be having
00:32:03.820 people running around
00:32:04.880 who we're not
00:32:05.980 tracking and kind of
00:32:07.100 working into the,
00:32:08.460 you know, into the
00:32:09.420 system and so forth.
00:32:10.460 But the idea of just,
00:32:12.200 you know, maybe our
00:32:13.140 country's full, maybe
00:32:15.040 we don't need any
00:32:16.160 more people right
00:32:17.020 now.
00:32:17.500 Maybe we should just
00:32:18.280 take some time to
00:32:19.720 look around at the
00:32:20.540 people we've got and
00:32:22.140 maybe we need to get
00:32:22.800 to know each other for
00:32:23.540 a little while, so
00:32:24.240 let's draw the drapes
00:32:25.160 and do that.
00:32:26.060 Like, that's not even
00:32:26.740 on the mind of, like,
00:32:27.800 what most people
00:32:28.400 consider immigration
00:32:29.280 hawks, you know?
00:32:30.780 And so, and I think
00:32:32.440 that's because, like,
00:32:33.700 that ethic is really,
00:32:35.020 really deeply buried
00:32:37.360 in our national sort of
00:32:38.840 consciousness, you know?
00:32:39.800 Um, and when you,
00:32:42.920 you know, I brought
00:32:43.480 up the question of,
00:32:44.680 like, why does this
00:32:46.160 seem to be happening
00:32:46.920 specifically in
00:32:47.760 Western, Northern
00:32:48.440 European countries
00:32:49.360 in the Anglosphere?
00:32:50.700 And I think it's that,
00:32:52.080 you know, um, for all
00:32:53.900 the, for all the
00:32:54.460 damage that communism
00:32:55.460 did to the Eastern
00:32:56.320 Bloc, it protected 1.00
00:32:57.740 them from American
00:32:58.560 propaganda and
00:32:59.500 influence, you know,
00:33:00.500 in this sense.
00:33:01.900 And, um, we sort of
00:33:03.280 exported that idea
00:33:04.600 that we had to have.
00:33:06.120 You know, we had to
00:33:07.000 adopt that ethic if we
00:33:08.240 were going to build
00:33:08.680 the country and fill
00:33:09.480 it up.
00:33:10.040 And we sort of
00:33:10.980 exported that to
00:33:12.400 actual nation states,
00:33:14.480 you know, real nations
00:33:15.440 in Europe so that they 0.69
00:33:16.780 have sort of adopted
00:33:17.940 that morality to the
00:33:18.880 point where countries
00:33:20.060 like Sweden, who 0.59
00:33:21.380 never colonized
00:33:22.180 anybody, they never
00:33:23.180 did anything like
00:33:24.120 that.
00:33:24.700 Or Ireland, Ireland
00:33:25.980 wasn't colonizing,
00:33:27.400 Ireland was the 0.97
00:33:28.180 colony, you know what
00:33:28.940 I mean?
00:33:29.320 Like, and yet in a
00:33:31.580 few decades, um,
00:33:34.580 we've managed to
00:33:35.340 take these countries
00:33:36.060 that were so fiercely
00:33:36.900 nationalistic, you know,
00:33:38.420 case of Ireland, that
00:33:39.440 they were just
00:33:40.200 brutally oppressed,
00:33:41.640 enslaved, murdered,
00:33:42.820 starved for hundreds
00:33:44.040 of years.
00:33:44.640 And they were still
00:33:45.320 fighting.
00:33:46.300 And then in a few
00:33:47.140 decades, you know,
00:33:49.120 they gave their
00:33:49.880 country away to the
00:33:50.940 point where, you
00:33:51.760 know, I don't know
00:33:52.360 if this will actually
00:33:53.120 happen.
00:33:53.660 We'll see.
00:33:54.140 I hope the Irish
00:33:54.760 people have, uh, you
00:33:56.640 know, um, have the
00:33:58.260 strength and, and, and
00:33:59.300 sort of collective
00:33:59.920 will to, to, to
00:34:01.240 reverse this.
00:34:01.900 But I mean, if you
00:34:02.480 go Google it online,
00:34:03.620 Ireland's supposed to
00:34:04.440 be majority non-Irish 0.97
00:34:06.480 in like 2070 or
00:34:07.800 something like that.
00:34:08.500 It's like, yeah, you
00:34:10.180 know, when you see a
00:34:11.280 revolution that takes
00:34:12.120 place, that's so
00:34:13.060 radical in that sense.
00:34:15.220 And one that if you
00:34:17.580 go talk to just people,
00:34:19.420 you know, at your job
00:34:20.620 or the people you meet
00:34:21.680 on the street, nobody
00:34:22.780 seems to want it.
00:34:24.100 Like you don't ever
00:34:25.160 meet unless you go to
00:34:26.060 like, you know, a
00:34:27.360 college in San
00:34:28.500 Francisco or just
00:34:29.340 wherever, you'll never
00:34:30.140 find anybody actually
00:34:31.340 defending the fact that
00:34:32.740 Ireland's going to be 0.98
00:34:33.740 minority Irish by
00:34:35.000 2070, nobody seems
00:34:36.740 to want it.
00:34:37.360 And yet this top
00:34:38.120 down radical
00:34:39.000 revolution is being
00:34:39.960 imposed.
00:34:40.700 And when it happens
00:34:41.580 so rapidly and it's
00:34:42.560 so successful, I
00:34:43.360 mean, we really have
00:34:43.920 to like, we have to
00:34:45.440 ask ourselves why, like
00:34:46.560 what the causes are,
00:34:47.540 you know?
00:34:48.820 Well, I mean, it
00:34:49.780 isn't Sinn Féin like,
00:34:51.140 like currently trying
00:34:52.460 to find how many
00:34:53.300 transgender immigrants
00:34:54.300 they can pack in, you
00:34:55.760 know, at this point.
00:34:56.640 Uh, but, but, uh,
00:34:57.760 yeah, I mean, the
00:34:58.400 fact that this has
00:35:00.020 gone everywhere, uh,
00:35:02.140 even in the UK, they're
00:35:03.840 currently having this
00:35:04.660 debate over whether the
00:35:06.240 English even exist, right?
00:35:08.260 Like, like the, the,
00:35:09.740 the point that, uh,
00:35:11.680 Rishi Sunak may not be
00:35:13.200 English.
00:35:13.780 He might be British in 0.85
00:35:14.880 this like abstracted, uh,
00:35:16.980 sense, right?
00:35:17.600 But it is not ethnically
00:35:19.140 English.
00:35:19.520 Like that is currently
00:35:20.580 like this massive, uh,
00:35:22.280 knockdown drag out
00:35:23.240 that's running through
00:35:23.980 this country at the
00:35:24.820 moment.
00:35:25.460 Uh, ironically, some
00:35:26.320 of the people who have
00:35:26.960 accused the woke right
00:35:28.180 of focusing on
00:35:29.280 ethnicity are now in 0.97
00:35:30.340 the thick of pointing
00:35:31.060 to the fact that,
00:35:31.720 uh, you know,
00:35:32.140 English ethnicity exists
00:35:33.620 and it's an actual
00:35:34.740 thing, but your point
00:35:36.160 is, is ultimately
00:35:37.100 validated there that
00:35:38.320 the, this idea that
00:35:39.740 originally is part of
00:35:41.620 kind of the, the left's
00:35:42.880 mythology in the United
00:35:44.000 States, uh, ends up
00:35:45.800 becoming, uh, this thing
00:35:47.660 that is now spread back
00:35:50.040 to islands like the UK
00:35:51.680 that obviously had a
00:35:53.220 European ethnicity at
00:35:54.420 some point.
00:35:55.040 And I, I guess part of
00:35:56.820 this is probably
00:35:57.880 ironically, um, a
00:36:00.700 consequence of the
00:36:01.900 nation state, right?
00:36:03.380 This was not
00:36:04.020 necessarily the way
00:36:05.000 that people understood
00:36:06.060 the relationship
00:36:07.160 between, uh, rules
00:36:09.200 and the rulers and
00:36:10.600 the rule.
00:36:11.140 This is not how people
00:36:11.880 understood national
00:36:13.140 identity previously.
00:36:14.460 Uh, but ironically,
00:36:15.820 kind of this progressive
00:36:17.020 push to, uh, free
00:36:19.020 every nation from, uh,
00:36:21.240 outside rule and
00:36:22.440 establish states in, in
00:36:24.040 the identity of the
00:36:25.300 nations has now become
00:36:27.680 basically, uh, the
00:36:29.260 destruction of what a
00:36:30.680 nation was at all.
00:36:31.800 Now that the nation
00:36:33.080 and the state have
00:36:33.720 become kind of this
00:36:34.520 coterminous thing, they 0.80
00:36:35.540 end in the same, begin
00:36:36.620 and end in the same
00:36:37.320 place, people have lost
00:36:38.740 what national identity
00:36:39.760 means at all.
00:36:41.000 And so therefore being
00:36:42.360 part of a nation is
00:36:43.460 being part of a state,
00:36:44.520 the state's action, the
00:36:45.840 governance of the
00:36:46.480 state, the legal
00:36:47.320 borders of the state,
00:36:48.260 the legal structures of
00:36:49.320 the state are national
00:36:50.860 identity.
00:36:51.560 These things are, are
00:36:52.320 not separate.
00:36:53.260 And so anyone inside the,
00:36:55.640 you know, kind of formal
00:36:56.820 governance of the state
00:36:58.520 is part of the nation
00:36:59.700 and anyone outside of
00:37:01.220 it otherwise shouldn't
00:37:02.500 be, uh, that, that is
00:37:03.680 now kind of become the
00:37:04.680 way in which people
00:37:05.520 understand national
00:37:06.960 identity.
00:37:07.580 And this is, I think
00:37:08.860 pretty disastrous
00:37:09.720 because these things
00:37:10.720 were never the same.
00:37:11.740 Uh, and now that they
00:37:13.020 have become the same,
00:37:14.040 uh, any shift in
00:37:15.540 national governments,
00:37:16.540 any, any actual state
00:37:18.060 action becomes synonymous
00:37:19.800 with national identity.
00:37:21.200 And therefore people have
00:37:22.800 a very difficult time
00:37:23.880 understanding when the
00:37:25.180 state betrays the
00:37:26.360 nation, when you're,
00:37:27.360 when your political
00:37:28.420 leaders are selling out
00:37:29.480 the actual people,
00:37:30.280 they, they can't grasp
00:37:31.260 why, because they think
00:37:32.500 they should be the same
00:37:33.280 thing.
00:37:34.900 Yeah.
00:37:35.360 You mentioned earlier
00:37:36.180 about, and this is
00:37:37.200 something I think we
00:37:37.900 probably, we probably
00:37:40.180 talk about a bit every
00:37:41.140 time we, we connect,
00:37:42.420 but you know, the, the,
00:37:44.460 the tendency of modern
00:37:47.980 states to sort of claim,
00:37:50.320 uh, every domain of human
00:37:55.060 into like social life as,
00:37:56.740 as part of the state's
00:37:57.820 prerogative to, to, um,
00:37:59.280 to govern, you know,
00:38:00.380 things like the family or
00:38:01.620 the church, the idea that
00:38:03.040 there are these semi
00:38:03.940 sovereign entities out
00:38:05.180 there that the state
00:38:06.140 really has no business
00:38:07.340 poking its nose into.
00:38:09.180 I mean, if it does, then
00:38:11.240 it's because there's, you
00:38:13.600 know, some kind of high
00:38:14.300 crime happening or
00:38:15.460 something, you know,
00:38:16.200 like, like a overwhelming
00:38:17.740 abuse in a family or
00:38:19.240 something like that.
00:38:20.120 Otherwise the state, you
00:38:21.600 know, simply had no, it
00:38:24.320 w it was just not its
00:38:25.120 business.
00:38:25.600 Right.
00:38:26.260 And, um, you know, in
00:38:28.160 our society, which is so
00:38:29.240 focused on, and again,
00:38:31.220 like this is something that
00:38:32.260 you go back to 1776 and,
00:38:34.580 uh, apply it the way it was
00:38:36.580 meant then in the context of
00:38:38.320 the world, as it existed at
00:38:39.620 the time, individual
00:38:41.080 Liberty, um, you know, was
00:38:43.360 an, it was probably a moral
00:38:44.480 advance in a lot of ways.
00:38:45.700 It was, um, you know,
00:38:46.580 brought a lot of things into
00:38:47.500 the world that you and I
00:38:48.580 and everybody else are
00:38:49.340 probably very glad are
00:38:50.380 here.
00:38:51.220 Um, but when you take
00:38:52.440 that and you run it
00:38:53.840 through to it's like
00:38:54.600 logical conclusion, you
00:38:55.880 run into the, you know,
00:38:58.340 the, the, the unavoidable
00:38:59.600 fact that individual
00:39:01.500 Liberty is, but is not
00:39:04.200 primarily inhibited by the
00:39:05.920 state, you know, the
00:39:07.380 state, most people don't
00:39:08.500 interact with the state
00:39:09.540 very much at all.
00:39:10.660 Like, okay, you can't
00:39:11.940 like, um, well, nowadays
00:39:13.220 you probably can, but
00:39:14.340 like, uh, you mean, it
00:39:15.160 gives us to say you can't
00:39:15.920 shoot heroin on the city
00:39:17.280 streets, but, you know,
00:39:18.560 maybe you can now, but,
00:39:20.040 um, but, you know, beyond
00:39:21.220 that, like the, the
00:39:22.600 inhibitions on our Liberty,
00:39:23.760 uh, are from our
00:39:25.860 families, they're from our 0.99
00:39:27.140 communities, they're from
00:39:28.100 our churches, they're from
00:39:29.360 just all the, the, the
00:39:30.980 great web of local
00:39:32.120 obligations that, uh, we
00:39:34.240 all are sort of born and
00:39:35.380 raised into.
00:39:36.140 And so the state sort of
00:39:37.800 stepped in, in the name of
00:39:39.160 Liberty and claim the 0.75
00:39:41.640 authority to step, to step
00:39:43.580 into all those things and
00:39:44.720 start, you know, governing
00:39:46.060 them at a, at a micro
00:39:47.480 level, which naturally
00:39:48.920 just delegitimizes, you
00:39:50.860 know, those, those local,
00:39:52.240 uh, obligations and
00:39:53.500 institutions because, you
00:39:55.480 know, the, uh, you know,
00:39:57.280 they derive their
00:39:57.920 authority from patronage and
00:40:00.860 just, um, the shame that
00:40:02.460 comes with, uh, with, with
00:40:03.880 betraying those obligations.
00:40:05.080 And we've sort of, we've
00:40:06.160 sort of taken those away.
00:40:07.120 Everything that those local
00:40:09.000 organizing, uh, centers, you
00:40:11.780 know, used to provide to
00:40:12.860 people, the state has
00:40:14.580 taken up all of those
00:40:15.840 things.
00:40:16.200 And so, you know, and
00:40:17.080 it's done this strangely
00:40:18.060 again, in the name of
00:40:19.060 Liberty, um, it, you know,
00:40:21.540 it's sort of taken to
00:40:22.820 itself, like the role of
00:40:24.420 being the guarantor against
00:40:25.880 the, uh, uh, the, the, um,
00:40:29.520 interference of our rights
00:40:30.860 by our family, local people
00:40:33.100 around us, you know, and
00:40:34.100 that's the state's kind of
00:40:34.920 primary role in a lot of
00:40:36.080 ways, like with regard to
00:40:37.220 our, uh, personal lives.
00:40:39.080 And so when you do that,
00:40:40.380 like you create a state,
00:40:41.440 that's like a, it's like
00:40:42.540 a hollow eggshell, you
00:40:43.940 know, the, the outer
00:40:45.000 structure is intact, but
00:40:46.640 inside there's nothing.
00:40:47.940 And therefore it's very,
00:40:49.040 very fragile, you know,
00:40:50.960 the, the, the, um, the
00:40:54.300 traditional, um, it was
00:40:55.940 really actually, I, I like
00:40:57.360 what you said about the
00:40:58.180 nation and the state having
00:40:59.140 become kind of
00:41:00.240 coterminous, uh, for
00:41:01.440 people, because that is
00:41:02.340 true.
00:41:02.840 And I think that's kind of
00:41:04.260 what happens when you wipe
00:41:05.400 out all those other
00:41:06.140 collectivities, you know,
00:41:07.720 people still want to
00:41:08.480 belong to something.
00:41:09.260 And that's the thing up,
00:41:10.700 that's the thing that has
00:41:11.500 all the power, all the
00:41:12.980 ability to distribute
00:41:14.020 patronage, all the ability
00:41:15.540 to punish all the, just 0.80
00:41:17.120 everything is collected to
00:41:18.220 there.
00:41:18.460 And so it's natural for
00:41:19.360 people to identify with it.
00:41:21.200 And, um, you know, in, in,
00:41:23.880 that was something was like
00:41:25.240 much more difficult in the
00:41:26.400 past when these, before
00:41:27.760 those local collectivities
00:41:28.920 were broken up because,
00:41:30.100 you know, people thought of
00:41:31.980 their nation as well, it's
00:41:34.460 the, um, you know, my, my
00:41:36.360 ancestors are buried here
00:41:38.460 and, um, you know, my
00:41:40.400 family and my friends and
00:41:41.580 my community exist in this
00:41:43.020 place and are able to
00:41:44.280 exist because of our
00:41:45.280 membership and these
00:41:46.080 larger, uh, political
00:41:47.800 entities and so forth.
00:41:49.120 It was like, it was a
00:41:50.020 bottom up kind of building
00:41:51.420 structure, you know, the
00:41:52.480 nation state, the, the
00:41:53.780 state was like the thing
00:41:55.600 that the, the, the star on
00:41:57.200 top of the tree, you know,
00:41:58.860 um, whereas now like the
00:42:00.840 tree's just been stripped
00:42:01.600 down and you gotta, you
00:42:02.540 gotta star up there just
00:42:03.580 sort of balancing on a
00:42:04.620 thin branch and, um, you
00:42:07.880 know, whether, again,
00:42:08.860 whether that's something
00:42:09.740 that, uh, that happens
00:42:12.240 naturally just through the
00:42:13.820 course of political and
00:42:14.880 economic and technological
00:42:16.180 development, um, that
00:42:18.420 could be the case, but I do
00:42:20.280 wonder though, because
00:42:21.100 again, I think we all would
00:42:22.600 agree that it's, it's
00:42:23.780 really hard to imagine that
00:42:25.060 happening in like Japan, 0.96
00:42:26.500 you know, no matter what
00:42:27.500 they could adopt our
00:42:28.720 constitution word for
00:42:29.920 word, all of our economic
00:42:32.120 reg, everything.
00:42:32.880 And I feel like Japan
00:42:34.380 would not go for that.
00:42:35.460 You know what I mean?
00:42:36.600 Well, I feel like Japan
00:42:37.680 could avoid it as an
00:42:39.000 island nation, but I
00:42:40.320 think a Imperial Japan
00:42:42.300 would go down this road.
00:42:43.920 Okay.
00:42:44.680 Um, I think this is, I
00:42:46.140 think this is a necessity
00:42:47.160 of scale.
00:42:48.400 Uh, you, you, uh, you
00:42:50.300 know, as we've both, you
00:42:51.860 know, again, you, you
00:42:52.940 look back to Kalanj and
00:42:54.000 you understand that the
00:42:55.180 city state was the
00:42:55.960 natural formation for
00:42:57.760 most of human history,
00:42:59.020 because really that's
00:43:00.420 about how, what you can
00:43:01.540 handle, right?
00:43:02.020 You've got Dunbar's
00:43:02.780 number, you're, you're,
00:43:03.940 you're wired to interact
00:43:05.300 with a village.
00:43:06.160 Uh, you know, anything
00:43:07.580 beyond that takes a large
00:43:09.000 degree of social
00:43:09.860 architecture that simply
00:43:10.920 didn't exist, uh,
00:43:12.860 previously.
00:43:13.400 And that's why the state
00:43:15.460 wasn't able usually to
00:43:17.340 hollow out the power of
00:43:18.380 families.
00:43:18.940 Again, you go back to
00:43:20.020 Kalanj, you think about,
00:43:20.980 you know, he says that
00:43:21.560 the gins had to be, uh, 0.99
00:43:23.300 undermined in order for
00:43:24.600 the Roman Republic to
00:43:25.680 rise because, uh, you
00:43:27.200 know, if it, for it to
00:43:28.020 transcend the tribal and
00:43:29.480 then the city state
00:43:30.240 mindset, it had to strip 0.99
00:43:32.340 away this power, but it
00:43:33.420 didn't have it previously,
00:43:34.520 so it couldn't.
00:43:35.640 And so there's always the
00:43:36.800 natural limitation on the
00:43:38.000 expansion of the power of
00:43:38.980 the state was this ability
00:43:40.280 to provide the necessary
00:43:41.600 architecture to fill in for
00:43:43.560 the social guarantors that
00:43:44.860 we're talking about, right?
00:43:45.880 If the church, the, the,
00:43:47.460 the, uh, civic
00:43:48.500 organization, the
00:43:49.320 extended family, these are
00:43:50.580 the things guaranteeing
00:43:51.820 your day-to-day rights in a
00:43:53.480 real sense, right?
00:43:54.200 Like we, you know, if you,
00:43:54.980 if you live in a tribal
00:43:55.680 society, it's your brothers
00:43:57.400 who are guaranteeing your
00:43:58.380 rights.
00:43:58.860 Yeah.
00:43:59.340 It's, it's your ability to
00:44:00.620 bring 15, 20 guys, uh, you
00:44:03.340 know, to, to a conflict that
00:44:04.960 guarantees your rights.
00:44:06.420 Um, so it, the, the family
00:44:08.080 is critical.
00:44:08.600 Those bonds are critical.
00:44:09.740 It's, it's the church that
00:44:11.380 handles charity.
00:44:12.120 They're the ones that help
00:44:13.060 you take care of your
00:44:14.220 ailing parents and the
00:44:15.280 destitute and whatever.
00:44:16.460 But the minute the state has
00:44:18.020 the ability to fill in this
00:44:19.200 architecture is the minute it
00:44:20.960 can steal that power, right?
00:44:22.020 It can undermine those ties.
00:44:23.320 It can free you from those
00:44:24.620 ties in a sense, but it's
00:44:26.240 also going to bind you then 0.99
00:44:27.460 under its power.
00:44:28.240 And by hollowing out those
00:44:29.280 identities, you create the
00:44:30.860 situation we're in today.
00:44:31.920 So you're right that I don't
00:44:33.100 think the Japanese would 1.00
00:44:34.320 adopt this in their current
00:44:35.840 formation, but if, if the
00:44:38.200 Japanese were trying to, 0.97
00:44:39.280 you know, operate a global
00:44:40.500 empire that ran half the
00:44:41.700 world, I think that
00:44:42.920 actually they would run into
00:44:44.180 this problem.
00:44:44.840 And, and I think, again, we
00:44:46.140 can see this in most
00:44:47.760 civilizations that spread to
00:44:49.340 this size, unless they
00:44:50.520 practice a high degree of
00:44:52.720 compartmentalization.
00:44:54.220 Again, much like we were
00:44:55.660 talking about with kind of
00:44:56.780 world war atrocities, the
00:44:59.100 reason that those got, you
00:45:00.560 know, genocide had existed
00:45:01.860 throughout, throughout human
00:45:03.720 history, you know, the, you
00:45:05.140 know, the Far East
00:45:05.720 slaughtered how many Romans 1.00
00:45:07.020 who were abroad on a
00:45:08.760 regular basis when they were
00:45:09.840 worried about their
00:45:10.480 influence, but they simply
00:45:12.080 did not have the mechanical
00:45:13.220 ability to just kill six,
00:45:15.080 10 million people, whatever,
00:45:16.360 right?
00:45:17.440 In the same way.
00:45:18.640 I think that's also true when
00:45:19.860 it comes to state expansion.
00:45:20.920 Like one of the reasons we've
00:45:21.940 gotten to where we are is
00:45:23.480 simply we got far up enough
00:45:25.260 the tech tree to be able to
00:45:27.180 kind of create this level of
00:45:28.880 abstraction that didn't exist
00:45:30.140 previously.
00:45:30.600 Other civilizations creating
00:45:32.280 empires would have if they 0.98
00:45:33.340 could have, but they
00:45:34.160 couldn't.
00:45:34.620 So they didn't end up in this
00:45:35.840 position.
00:45:37.820 So, but you think Rome did,
00:45:39.760 right?
00:45:40.520 To, to some extent, again,
00:45:41.880 not to the severity that we
00:45:43.800 ended up with, but you can't
00:45:45.260 tell me that Roman citizenship in, 0.72
00:45:47.300 you know, 200 BC looked the
00:45:49.420 same that it did in 280.
00:45:51.460 These are radically different,
00:45:52.580 you know, ideas of belonging
00:45:55.000 at this point.
00:45:56.380 Yeah.
00:45:56.600 Obviously they still had a lot
00:45:57.780 of the tribal infrastructure
00:45:58.760 because it just, they, you
00:45:59.980 know, they didn't have the
00:46:01.040 ability to break it apart the
00:46:02.280 same way that we do now.
00:46:03.760 Yeah.
00:46:04.620 You know, to bring up like the
00:46:06.500 Russian empire again, or even
00:46:08.140 the British up until the 20th
00:46:10.140 century.
00:46:10.520 I mean, they seem to be able
00:46:11.900 to maintain a sense of their
00:46:13.360 native, like ethnos, despite 1.00
00:46:16.060 having massive empires, like
00:46:17.800 for a long, long time.
00:46:18.860 But I mean, your point's well
00:46:19.800 taken though.
00:46:20.380 I've, I've, you know, I think
00:46:21.660 I've said before somewhere
00:46:22.660 that, uh, you know, you get a
00:46:24.900 choice between a nation or an 0.90
00:46:26.260 empire and you can't have both
00:46:27.640 because once you have an
00:46:28.760 empire, then the whole world
00:46:29.940 has a stake in how your
00:46:31.000 country's run.
00:46:32.200 And you can say, well, too
00:46:33.460 bad it's our country, but
00:46:34.660 that's just, you're, you know,
00:46:36.760 you're competing with others
00:46:37.940 for the, uh, you know,
00:46:39.940 command of your, of your
00:46:41.060 state at that point.
00:46:41.980 And so you make that choice
00:46:43.400 or you go down that road,
00:46:44.600 whether you make it or not,
00:46:45.460 and that's what you get.
00:46:47.000 So, um, you know, I wonder
00:46:50.560 though, like, um, I was
00:46:53.080 thinking about your, you
00:46:54.060 know, what you said about the
00:46:55.100 state and the nation becoming,
00:46:56.380 uh, kind of identical in
00:46:58.280 people's minds and how that
00:46:59.600 sort of, how that, how that
00:47:01.580 fits with the fact that, um,
00:47:04.860 you know, like sort of the
00:47:06.600 official, the official
00:47:09.340 morality says that like, if
00:47:11.260 you see somebody burning
00:47:12.300 an American flag, for
00:47:13.400 example, that you shouldn't
00:47:15.320 have like a big emotional
00:47:16.500 reaction to that.
00:47:17.400 You should just keep
00:47:18.060 walking and let that person
00:47:19.220 express their freedom or
00:47:20.460 whatever.
00:47:21.120 And, you know, it's, it's
00:47:22.880 not something that I would
00:47:24.700 expect if, uh, you know, if
00:47:26.860 the American state was sort
00:47:28.220 of like taken up as the
00:47:29.580 sacred cow that the nation
00:47:30.780 used to be for people.
00:47:31.840 Um, you know, it seems
00:47:34.280 like, um, I, I, I, I know
00:47:37.120 people like, um, I think
00:47:38.900 Jordan Peterson, I haven't
00:47:39.980 followed him in a really
00:47:40.600 long time, but he's always
00:47:41.600 liked to say a version of
00:47:43.240 this.
00:47:43.500 And you see a lot of, a
00:47:44.800 lot of people say something
00:47:47.160 along the lines of like how
00:47:48.740 pathetic it is for people to
00:47:50.960 pride themselves on the
00:47:52.240 accomplishments of their
00:47:53.180 ancestors instead of like
00:47:54.440 their own achievements or
00:47:55.680 whatever.
00:47:55.940 And I was always just, for
00:47:59.780 one, I think that's
00:48:00.380 ignorant, but also I just, I
00:48:01.780 find it kind of like
00:48:03.360 offensively stupid, you 0.79
00:48:04.680 know, because, you know,
00:48:06.340 the idea that, um, you
00:48:10.240 know, the, the idea that you
00:48:13.000 can hang your hat on what
00:48:15.280 little you might do in your
00:48:17.020 individual life and that that
00:48:18.400 should somehow be a point of
00:48:19.720 pride for you, uh, that
00:48:22.000 transcends like your 1.00
00:48:23.160 membership in these things
00:48:24.640 that are larger and, and,
00:48:25.920 and longer lasting than
00:48:27.020 yourself, um, you know,
00:48:29.560 taking pride in those things
00:48:30.860 seems to me a much more
00:48:32.420 legitimate form of pride and
00:48:34.100 satisfaction and a greater
00:48:35.460 sense of meaning than, you
00:48:37.260 know, I got a promotion at my
00:48:38.320 job or whatever, you know?
00:48:41.360 Um, and I think that's how
00:48:43.040 people, that's how, that's
00:48:45.240 how people did find meaning,
00:48:46.500 especially people who were,
00:48:48.000 you know, I think, uh, you
00:48:49.640 know, you see like elites
00:48:50.940 people who, you know, Elon
00:48:52.560 Musk can, he can derive 0.87
00:48:55.060 meaning from the fact that
00:48:56.160 he's shooting rockets into
00:48:57.060 space, you know, and he's the
00:48:58.520 richest man in the world and
00:48:59.880 like whatever.
00:49:01.360 Um, and at lower levels of
00:49:04.400 like elite, uh, and, and
00:49:06.080 elite aspirant behavior, you
00:49:07.380 get, you get some of that
00:49:08.860 same sort of mentality.
00:49:10.360 Um, but for people who are,
00:49:12.060 you know, down in the middle
00:49:13.280 and the bottom, you know,
00:49:14.960 they, they take their
00:49:15.920 meaning.
00:49:16.880 We, we take our meaning like
00:49:18.380 where we can find it, you
00:49:19.440 know, and, and, you know,
00:49:20.760 these stubborn, uh, attachments
00:49:22.900 of nation and family and
00:49:24.560 place and religion and, and,
00:49:26.780 uh, all of these things are
00:49:28.280 the basis of people's, uh,
00:49:30.280 meaning in their lives.
00:49:31.240 And so when the state
00:49:32.500 embarks on that project to
00:49:34.000 sort of delegitimize all
00:49:35.820 those things, you know, in
00:49:37.180 the name of, you know, having,
00:49:39.640 I guess a more openness so
00:49:41.240 that you can operate your
00:49:42.200 state at a larger scale or
00:49:43.820 whatever, um, you know, they,
00:49:46.440 at the same time, we're
00:49:47.340 taking away the basis of
00:49:48.720 meaning for the majority
00:49:50.320 of the population.
00:49:51.960 And, um, and this is being
00:49:53.120 done again by elites who
00:49:54.400 really couldn't see like why
00:49:55.900 people were so attached to
00:49:58.000 those things in the first
00:49:58.840 place, you know, like Obama
00:49:59.920 talking about these people
00:50:00.960 are attached to their guns
00:50:02.080 and their Bibles, you know,
00:50:03.760 he, he could have said like
00:50:05.100 it would have meant the
00:50:05.740 same thing.
00:50:06.720 He could have said they're
00:50:07.740 attached to their American
00:50:08.720 flags and their Bibles, you
00:50:10.200 know, it was poor people down
00:50:11.480 there.
00:50:12.300 And, um, and that's the
00:50:13.860 mentality, I think of the
00:50:14.980 decision makers, you know,
00:50:16.080 because again, they have
00:50:16.960 other things that they're
00:50:17.960 proud of other than the
00:50:18.940 fact that they're Americans
00:50:19.980 or they're part of this,
00:50:21.280 you know, long tradition of
00:50:22.900 Christianity or come from a 1.00
00:50:24.380 good family or something.
00:50:26.480 Um, you see it when you go
00:50:28.500 to DC, I'm sure you've been
00:50:29.560 there.
00:50:29.780 Like it, it always cracks me
00:50:31.520 up.
00:50:31.760 You go down to the national
00:50:32.900 mall area and walk around
00:50:34.380 and you see people, you know,
00:50:36.100 who work in like the 0.64
00:50:38.240 department of agriculture
00:50:39.320 probably or something, but
00:50:40.480 you walk all down every
00:50:42.100 street and you look at the
00:50:43.360 faces of people, you know,
00:50:44.520 you've got the Washington
00:50:45.240 monument there and the
00:50:46.400 capitals there and they're
00:50:47.700 walking down the sidewalk to
00:50:49.420 go to work at the department
00:50:50.500 of agriculture.
00:50:51.540 And they are so pleased with
00:50:53.200 themselves.
00:50:54.040 I mean, they are, they think
00:50:55.400 they are so awesome.
00:50:56.780 You know, just I'm walking
00:50:58.200 by the Washington monument on
00:51:00.160 the way to work at the, you
00:51:01.440 know, and they're so happy
00:51:02.620 with themselves.
00:51:03.240 And so, you know, you could
00:51:04.920 take people like that who
00:51:06.920 don't feel like they need any
00:51:08.180 of those other things.
00:51:09.080 They're probably wrong.
00:51:10.460 You know, they'll find out the
00:51:11.760 hard way one day that they are
00:51:13.220 wrong and they're going to be
00:51:14.400 just as alienated as everybody
00:51:15.820 else.
00:51:17.400 But those are the people who,
00:51:18.760 you know, who shape our
00:51:19.720 policies and impose this on
00:51:21.000 the rest of us.
00:51:22.460 And, you know, it's kind of
00:51:23.920 natural that, you know, like,
00:51:25.200 like Peterson would say
00:51:26.180 something like that to, to
00:51:29.460 sort of ridicule and mock
00:51:30.860 people for subscribing to
00:51:32.340 like racialism.
00:51:33.680 You know, that's what he's
00:51:34.300 talking about.
00:51:35.020 But there's really no
00:51:36.000 argument or no reason you
00:51:37.400 can't take his argument that
00:51:38.740 you shouldn't take pride in
00:51:39.880 like, you know, the
00:51:41.000 achievements of larger
00:51:42.440 collectives you're a part of.
00:51:43.500 There's no reason you can't
00:51:44.480 take that argument and apply
00:51:45.320 it to everything.
00:51:46.120 You can delegitimize
00:51:46.840 patriotism with that.
00:51:48.160 You can delegitimize faith 0.91
00:51:49.220 anything, you know, because,
00:51:50.960 well, OK, that's nice.
00:51:52.040 But what have you done?
00:51:52.960 Or how does it harm you
00:51:53.800 personally?
00:51:54.560 You know, and
00:51:55.840 and that's kind of what's
00:51:57.260 that's kind of what's been
00:51:58.400 done.
00:52:00.000 Yeah, I think most
00:52:00.940 conservatives don't
00:52:02.160 recognize the
00:52:03.380 civilizational acid
00:52:04.960 that is liberalism
00:52:06.400 when they see it.
00:52:07.860 So you're exactly
00:52:10.320 right to point out
00:52:11.160 that this that Peterson
00:52:12.360 is only echoing a
00:52:13.680 conservative talking point
00:52:14.840 that's been around for a
00:52:15.720 long time.
00:52:16.300 Right.
00:52:17.060 Simultaneously, we should
00:52:18.020 take great pride in the
00:52:19.360 founding fathers and our
00:52:20.380 founding documents and
00:52:21.820 and being
00:52:23.160 American.
00:52:23.640 But also, we should have
00:52:25.360 no pride in our
00:52:26.480 previous achievements,
00:52:28.260 our, you know, our
00:52:29.480 heritage, any of these
00:52:31.060 things.
00:52:31.420 It's all individual
00:52:32.140 accomplishment.
00:52:33.000 Obviously, those things
00:52:33.820 can't be simultaneously
00:52:34.980 true, but we're asked to
00:52:37.140 act as if they are.
00:52:38.540 And Peterson is regularly
00:52:39.880 bringing up archetypal
00:52:41.020 stories that are founded
00:52:42.480 deep in our subconscious
00:52:44.040 because of our heritage,
00:52:46.040 because of our lineage,
00:52:47.360 our language, our shared
00:52:48.420 cultures, and yet rejects
00:52:51.140 pride in those things, even
00:52:53.120 though he believes they
00:52:54.380 can ultimately define us.
00:52:55.680 And I think a lot of this
00:52:56.360 comes from the failed
00:52:58.060 conservative attempt to
00:52:59.960 juxtapose individualism
00:53:03.180 and collectivism as if they
00:53:05.360 are some kind of
00:53:06.460 differentiated force, which
00:53:07.980 of course is insane.
00:53:09.860 And a lot of it also comes
00:53:11.560 after the kind of the
00:53:12.840 post-war consensus problem.
00:53:14.400 Right.
00:53:14.680 Like there's a reason that
00:53:16.840 it's really important if
00:53:18.480 you've noticed recently
00:53:19.340 everyone's scoffing at the
00:53:20.600 great men of history.
00:53:21.440 Think again, like this is
00:53:23.060 entered the discourse yet
00:53:24.140 again, that we're, we're
00:53:25.140 not allowed to have great
00:53:26.600 men of history.
00:53:27.920 Someone was asking me on a
00:53:29.720 Twitter space recently,
00:53:30.520 like, why don't we do
00:53:31.460 that?
00:53:31.660 Like, why don't we study
00:53:32.940 the great men anymore?
00:53:34.320 Why don't we have
00:53:34.960 classical educations?
00:53:36.320 Why don't we attempt to
00:53:37.600 learn Latin and Greek so we
00:53:39.160 can have this continuity of
00:53:41.440 civilization and understand,
00:53:43.220 you know, kind of the
00:53:45.020 context in which our great
00:53:46.660 works are rendered?
00:53:47.660 And, and the answer is
00:53:49.500 because we needed to sever
00:53:50.980 ourselves from all previous
00:53:52.740 human civilizations in order
00:53:54.860 to kind of create the
00:53:56.540 highly atomized existence
00:53:59.120 we have today.
00:54:00.560 We wanted to get rid of the 1.00
00:54:02.040 strong gods.
00:54:02.900 We wanted to get, we wanted
00:54:04.040 weak bonds.
00:54:06.240 We wanted, you know, economic
00:54:07.820 bonds.
00:54:08.560 We wanted bonds of ideology.
00:54:11.680 We didn't want bonds of
00:54:12.780 heritage.
00:54:13.040 We didn't want bonds of
00:54:14.240 religion.
00:54:14.580 We didn't want bonds that
00:54:16.020 drove men towards the great
00:54:17.660 passions because great and
00:54:19.680 terrible things sit behind
00:54:20.940 those bonds, right?
00:54:22.020 The, the worst atrocities in
00:54:23.900 the world and the greatest
00:54:25.160 feats and endeavors of the
00:54:27.020 world all sit, you know, it,
00:54:29.260 but kind of behind those
00:54:30.280 forces.
00:54:30.940 And so I think that that's why
00:54:33.420 ultimately we have been
00:54:35.000 encouraged.
00:54:35.520 And, and, and I doubt you
00:54:36.720 would sit down with the, you
00:54:38.400 know, someone at the
00:54:39.460 department of education
00:54:40.360 like, oh no, we're going
00:54:41.420 with trends and forces
00:54:42.280 history because it gets rid of
00:54:43.600 like a possible great men.
00:54:45.480 Right.
00:54:45.880 But ultimately I think that
00:54:47.420 is kind of the driver is
00:54:49.100 when we wanted pacified
00:54:50.580 civilizations in which, uh,
00:54:52.480 the, these great spirits
00:54:53.720 that could animate human
00:54:54.900 action were banished.
00:54:56.560 Right.
00:54:56.920 And, and I think that's why
00:54:58.320 we did it with history.
00:54:59.320 I think that's why we did
00:55:00.240 it, uh, with our, the, are
00:55:02.060 the way that we create our
00:55:03.060 governments, the way that we
00:55:04.020 encourage people to think
00:55:04.940 about their identity and
00:55:06.500 their, their spiritual
00:55:07.440 structures and everything
00:55:08.220 else.
00:55:08.740 Religion.
00:55:09.140 We have to disinvest from
00:55:10.840 it.
00:55:11.040 Heritage.
00:55:11.540 We have to disinvest from
00:55:12.440 it, you know, a great,
00:55:13.780 the idea that great men
00:55:14.700 can drive history.
00:55:15.600 It all has to go because
00:55:16.660 if these things exist, well
00:55:18.600 then history is an
00:55:19.740 existential struggle.
00:55:20.660 It's not over.
00:55:21.560 It's not solved.
00:55:22.860 It's great powers are
00:55:23.860 moving any moment.
00:55:25.360 The, the, the, the
00:55:26.240 metaphysical animating
00:55:27.420 spirit of any given
00:55:29.060 civilization could drive
00:55:30.160 it to greater terrible
00:55:31.060 things.
00:55:31.600 And so I think that's
00:55:32.900 why we see the interest
00:55:34.700 in kind of defending all
00:55:36.320 of these disciplines and
00:55:37.340 all of these motivations
00:55:38.260 because ultimately they're
00:55:40.060 dangerous to the status
00:55:41.380 quo as we understand it.
00:55:44.420 Yeah.
00:55:44.980 And I mean, I just say
00:55:47.880 that you can't really
00:55:48.740 expect a bureaucrat to
00:55:50.320 subscribe to great man of
00:55:51.620 history theory.
00:55:52.620 You know what I mean?
00:55:54.300 So.
00:55:55.340 Yeah.
00:55:55.680 If you're, if you're, if
00:55:57.340 you know, uh, what is
00:55:58.820 it, um, uh, you, you get
00:56:00.520 to, uh, Alexander statue
00:56:02.160 and you're supposed to
00:56:02.860 weep because you've not,
00:56:04.000 uh, you have not, uh,
00:56:05.220 achieved what Alexander
00:56:06.220 has, you know, bureaucrat
00:56:07.600 can't even look at
00:56:08.460 Alexander.
00:56:08.940 You can't, can't even
00:56:09.500 acknowledge the existence
00:56:10.320 about Alexander's
00:56:11.380 statue, right?
00:56:12.660 They, they've, they've
00:56:13.460 invested in a mode of
00:56:15.000 being that denies, uh,
00:56:17.440 pretty much everything
00:56:18.180 that is great about that,
00:56:19.480 that kind of man.
00:56:20.380 And so, uh, you know,
00:56:21.800 that, that would be my,
00:56:22.780 again, I don't think
00:56:23.460 it's a conspiracy.
00:56:24.140 I don't think that like
00:56:25.120 people got together and
00:56:26.300 they're, you know, like,
00:56:27.360 yeah, okay.
00:56:27.920 They wrote the
00:56:28.380 authoritarian personality.
00:56:29.520 Like, obviously there's
00:56:30.520 some, uh, there's some
00:56:31.880 kind of, uh, interaction
00:56:33.620 there, but ultimately I
00:56:35.000 think it was that we
00:56:36.180 moved in a general
00:56:37.440 direction of thinking
00:56:38.540 that pacified populations,
00:56:40.160 uh, Paul, uh,
00:56:41.700 populations that are
00:56:42.360 deracinated, disinvested
00:56:43.940 from their heritage
00:56:44.640 and, uh, the ability
00:56:46.080 to achieve greatness, uh,
00:56:47.700 was the safest way
00:56:48.720 to avoid conflict,
00:56:49.860 was the best way to
00:56:50.760 promote the current
00:56:51.420 global order with
00:56:52.220 these kinds of things.
00:56:52.880 That's why the emergence
00:56:54.040 of Trump was always a
00:56:55.340 red flag for people,
00:56:56.460 right?
00:56:56.720 Like, even if Trump
00:56:57.920 was never the guy, uh,
00:56:59.720 people wanted him to
00:57:00.680 be the guy and, and our
00:57:01.960 elites felt that down in
00:57:03.140 their soul, right?
00:57:03.940 Like they knew it even,
00:57:05.440 even, even if the people
00:57:06.700 who wanted it, couldn't
00:57:08.060 say it out loud, even if
00:57:09.100 Trump didn't really want
00:57:10.580 it, ultimately just the
00:57:12.320 emergence of that force
00:57:14.040 back onto the world stage
00:57:16.180 onto the historical stage
00:57:17.640 was terrifying enough to
00:57:19.240 basically try to blow up
00:57:20.200 the whole system to stop
00:57:21.240 it.
00:57:21.500 Uh, that's why it's so
00:57:22.560 important to, you know,
00:57:23.260 start pairing him with
00:57:24.200 Putin and, you know,
00:57:25.400 Orban and all these 1.00
00:57:26.380 terrible guys who are
00:57:27.760 like actually thinking
00:57:28.580 about the wellbeing of
00:57:29.600 their individual countries
00:57:31.500 instead of, uh, you
00:57:32.800 know, overarching world
00:57:34.140 spanning ideologies.
00:57:35.480 The idea of
00:57:36.460 particularity is pretty
00:57:38.240 much the death knell to
00:57:39.380 liberalism and into some
00:57:41.100 extent, even the American
00:57:42.040 understanding we're
00:57:43.360 terrified of
00:57:44.080 particularity, uh, but
00:57:45.780 it's necessary.
00:57:46.980 The strong gods are
00:57:47.820 coming back either way.
00:57:48.960 I don't think we can
00:57:49.680 avoid it.
00:57:50.200 And so I think all the
00:57:51.500 mature people in the room
00:57:52.540 are really having
00:57:53.120 conversations about how
00:57:54.300 do we, uh, be
00:57:55.380 best interact with this
00:57:57.000 fact in a way that's
00:57:58.180 organic and helpful, uh,
00:58:00.040 and, and, and, and
00:58:00.860 nourishing for the people
00:58:01.880 that we care about and
00:58:03.160 all the people who are
00:58:04.280 deeply invested in the
00:58:05.200 current system are
00:58:05.880 running around screaming,
00:58:06.880 you know, at guys like
00:58:08.480 you, uh, for pointing
00:58:09.560 out that perhaps, you
00:58:10.880 know, uh, there's more
00:58:12.000 to history than this
00:58:13.060 brief window in which
00:58:14.040 we've tried to strip it
00:58:15.500 of all of its, uh, true
00:58:16.920 existential nature.
00:58:20.120 Yeah.
00:58:20.620 You know, this is, uh,
00:58:21.600 maybe a left turn.
00:58:23.100 I don't know how much,
00:58:23.620 how much time we got
00:58:24.580 left, but, um, you
00:58:26.400 know, I also feel that
00:58:27.400 like since the 1960s,
00:58:28.960 we've, uh, this is
00:58:32.340 another parallel with
00:58:33.220 Rome, maybe when like
00:58:34.220 they started importing
00:58:35.120 the ISIS cult to like a 0.97
00:58:36.600 lot of the elites and
00:58:37.460 stuff like late in the,
00:58:38.660 late in their history.
00:58:39.340 But, um, you know,
00:58:41.820 that we, we don't see
00:58:43.380 it that way now, but I
00:58:44.420 think honestly, historians
00:58:45.820 might look back at our
00:58:46.840 music or literature or
00:58:48.340 movies, just all every,
00:58:49.660 all of our cultural
00:58:50.520 output, uh, during this
00:58:52.680 era and realize that
00:58:54.400 since the 1960s, we all
00:58:55.840 kind of fell into a sex
00:58:56.940 cult and, uh, just a
00:58:58.920 cult of, of, of pleasure,
00:59:01.100 you know, and, um, and
00:59:02.320 primarily sex, but just
00:59:03.420 individual pleasure in
00:59:04.660 general.
00:59:05.020 And that became, once you
00:59:06.500 allow like the masses of
00:59:07.740 people to kind of fall into
00:59:09.280 that, um, and you pull,
00:59:11.440 you, you remove the shame
00:59:12.600 that used to, uh, prevent
00:59:14.580 people from falling into it,
00:59:15.960 you delegitimize all of
00:59:18.020 the sources of local
00:59:18.900 authority that might've,
00:59:20.140 you know, held people
00:59:20.720 back from falling into
00:59:21.740 it.
00:59:22.380 Um, it's very, very, very
00:59:23.760 hard for an individual to
00:59:26.220 not join the party.
00:59:27.620 You know what I mean?
00:59:28.260 And so since the 1960s,
00:59:30.260 like that, you know,
00:59:32.080 fulfillment of my
00:59:33.060 individual desires, even
00:59:34.440 so you saw this, even
00:59:35.260 with somebody like, uh,
00:59:36.720 like, um, like Joseph
00:59:38.220 Campbell, you know, Joseph
00:59:39.500 Campbell was like, uh, um,
00:59:43.180 you know, just sort of
00:59:44.060 constitutionally, like he
00:59:45.320 was a conservative
00:59:45.960 person, you know, he
00:59:47.120 was an old school dude.
00:59:48.400 He was an athlete.
00:59:49.360 He, uh, you know, he,
00:59:50.760 he, um, wrote a letter
00:59:52.920 to Nixon, uh, and told
00:59:54.540 him, you know, to tell
00:59:55.320 him he was supporting
00:59:56.620 what he was doing in
00:59:57.460 Vietnam and so forth.
00:59:58.700 And, um, you know, he
01:00:00.000 loves Spangler and, you
01:00:01.160 know, Schmidt, a lot of
01:00:01.940 these old guys, like 1.00
01:00:02.600 naturally a conservative
01:00:03.660 person, but then you have
01:00:05.640 him like in the sixties
01:00:06.640 and seventies, you know,
01:00:07.640 coining that phrase,
01:00:08.500 follow your bliss.
01:00:09.500 Like that, that's the
01:00:10.560 meaning of life right
01:00:11.700 there.
01:00:12.220 And it's like, once you
01:00:13.700 have the large, just
01:00:14.860 really, I mean, almost
01:00:15.960 everybody subscribing to
01:00:18.280 that and it does become a
01:00:19.360 self-fulfilling prophecy,
01:00:20.380 right?
01:00:20.680 Because the people who
01:00:21.480 still want to identify
01:00:22.780 with this larger hole,
01:00:24.200 that hole starts to
01:00:25.820 disintegrate.
01:00:26.400 Like it slips through your
01:00:27.400 fingers, whether you want
01:00:28.240 it to or not.
01:00:28.940 Um, that it becomes like
01:00:31.560 really hard to get people to
01:00:33.560 look up, you know, from
01:00:35.120 their own loins and
01:00:36.280 actually care about
01:00:38.100 anything beyond that,
01:00:39.580 beyond where their next
01:00:40.280 fix is coming from.
01:00:41.700 And, um, and I think
01:00:43.220 that's something, honestly,
01:00:44.160 that, again, I don't know
01:00:45.300 if this is necessarily a
01:00:46.380 conspiracy or if it's just
01:00:47.560 an outgrowth of our
01:00:48.500 ideology or if it's
01:00:50.160 something that happens
01:00:51.120 like, again, not as a
01:00:53.440 conscious conspiracy, but
01:00:54.640 more in like the, you
01:00:55.940 know, the system's purpose
01:00:57.260 is what it does kind of
01:00:58.500 thing, um, that, uh,
01:01:01.660 you know, it does, people
01:01:02.940 have talked about this
01:01:03.760 before, you know, um,
01:01:05.340 sexual liberation as a
01:01:06.660 form of political and
01:01:07.580 social control because,
01:01:08.800 you know, you, uh, people
01:01:11.180 who, who were slaves to
01:01:12.660 their passions and
01:01:13.500 primarily focused on
01:01:14.860 fulfilling those things,
01:01:15.920 um, can be convinced and
01:01:18.140 bought off, you know, to
01:01:19.320 surrender their political
01:01:20.400 agency, you know, as long
01:01:21.940 as they're provided with
01:01:22.700 those things.
01:01:23.600 And, uh, we've really done
01:01:24.940 that en masse.
01:01:25.740 And I think like, you
01:01:26.620 know, the, the
01:01:27.240 difficulty that people
01:01:28.320 like us have now, and
01:01:29.280 this is like, to me, the
01:01:30.220 really interesting
01:01:31.200 conversation, especially
01:01:32.380 in America, I think in
01:01:33.360 Europe, it's a little bit
01:01:34.100 different.
01:01:34.580 I think for the Irish,
01:01:36.500 their, uh, their
01:01:38.380 challenge is how do we
01:01:40.580 reverse the trend, the
01:01:42.920 demographic trend in our
01:01:43.900 country and turn this
01:01:44.740 back into Ireland.
01:01:45.620 Like that's, that's
01:01:47.040 pretty straightforward to
01:01:48.080 me.
01:01:48.680 America, because we've
01:01:49.600 always kind of, you
01:01:51.020 know, our identity's
01:01:51.800 constantly been
01:01:52.540 renegotiated.
01:01:53.420 Like every generation 0.98
01:01:54.640 is new people come in
01:01:55.760 and we have to
01:01:56.220 accommodate them.
01:01:56.920 And we'll need them
01:01:57.800 into the national
01:01:59.220 dough that, um, you
01:02:01.360 know, we're like, for
01:02:02.660 us, like our confusion
01:02:04.500 about our identity is, uh,
01:02:06.540 is, is maybe the most
01:02:08.020 natural thing about us,
01:02:09.160 you know?
01:02:09.420 And so the fact that all
01:02:10.900 of those things that
01:02:11.900 would have been, would
01:02:13.080 have provided the bedrock
01:02:14.220 for that national
01:02:14.960 identity have kind of
01:02:15.840 been swept off the board.
01:02:18.160 You know, I think it
01:02:19.160 means that like a lot of,
01:02:21.660 a lot of people on the
01:02:22.500 right, you know, we love
01:02:24.060 our Greek statues and our
01:02:25.500 Nietzsche quotes and all
01:02:26.420 these kinds of things.
01:02:27.060 They want to look back
01:02:28.160 to the past as, you
01:02:30.580 know, to find something
01:02:31.600 that we need to revive,
01:02:32.820 you know, return with a
01:02:33.840 V and, you know, um, and
01:02:35.740 all that.
01:02:36.360 But, um, and I'm
01:02:37.800 sympathetic to that, but
01:02:38.800 at the same time, I kind
01:02:40.060 of doubt that that's
01:02:42.200 really possible.
01:02:42.820 And then our real
01:02:43.660 challenge is much more
01:02:44.700 difficult because we have
01:02:45.860 to figure out how to
01:02:47.720 build something from
01:02:48.400 scratch and what that
01:02:49.640 should look like.
01:02:50.120 It doesn't mean we can't
01:02:50.900 learn from the past or
01:02:51.740 take bits of our
01:02:52.320 tradition from the past.
01:02:53.820 Um, but we have to
01:02:55.220 admit the fact, you know,
01:02:56.400 just, we have to admit
01:02:57.440 the, uh, the really
01:02:58.880 terrible, terrible state
01:03:00.300 that our people are in,
01:03:01.420 you know?
01:03:02.600 Um, I mean, our people
01:03:03.660 are, you could say
01:03:06.640 America is a Christian 0.99
01:03:07.440 country and there's a lot
01:03:08.400 of practicing Christians.
01:03:09.680 I know a lot of people
01:03:11.320 who go to church and I
01:03:12.280 don't know a lot of
01:03:12.960 people who really
01:03:13.660 believe in Christianity
01:03:14.580 anymore.
01:03:15.420 I don't know a lot of
01:03:16.540 people who really are
01:03:18.620 loyal to their families
01:03:19.960 or their communities or
01:03:21.100 anything like that
01:03:21.940 anymore.
01:03:22.840 Um, in a way that like
01:03:24.540 it's a basic governing
01:03:25.460 principle of their life,
01:03:26.840 you know what I mean?
01:03:27.420 And, um, and so when
01:03:29.480 you don't have like all
01:03:30.560 of those basic
01:03:31.320 fundamental things that,
01:03:32.540 you know, you're
01:03:33.100 talking, you're trying to
01:03:33.700 talk about how do we
01:03:34.500 keep this country
01:03:35.200 together?
01:03:35.540 How do we tie like
01:03:36.740 citizen to citizen?
01:03:38.320 You, you, we got to go
01:03:39.380 back and start figuring
01:03:40.460 out how to tie
01:03:41.220 neighbor to neighbor
01:03:42.160 again, how to tie
01:03:43.100 brother to brother
01:03:44.160 again.
01:03:44.420 I mean, that's where
01:03:45.020 we're at, you know?
01:03:46.520 And, um, and that is,
01:03:48.360 you know, and I think
01:03:49.220 honestly, like one of the
01:03:50.220 reasons we avoid that,
01:03:52.360 I don't know if we
01:03:52.920 necessarily avoid it,
01:03:53.660 but like that it doesn't
01:03:54.820 get talked about as, as
01:03:55.900 much is that, um, you
01:03:59.320 know, you can talk about
01:04:00.500 whether America is going
01:04:01.780 to balkanize or we can
01:04:02.920 find some collective
01:04:03.960 national identity to hold
01:04:05.620 us together or whatever.
01:04:06.460 Or, and that's, you can
01:04:07.900 write a book about it and
01:04:08.980 whatever, but that's not
01:04:10.560 something that there's no
01:04:11.620 barricades demand over
01:04:12.700 that.
01:04:13.220 You don't have to
01:04:13.720 actually get up early and
01:04:14.940 go do something over that. 0.94
01:04:16.720 It's really like a
01:04:17.540 theoretical conversation
01:04:18.760 that we're having.
01:04:19.440 And if it's going to
01:04:20.480 change, it'll be because
01:04:21.760 like the national mood or
01:04:23.480 just the mood of our
01:04:24.140 people changes over time
01:04:25.680 and like, you know,
01:04:26.340 things change as a result
01:04:27.300 of that.
01:04:27.700 But, but, you know, to,
01:04:29.540 to knit our communities
01:04:31.460 and our families and
01:04:32.480 everything like that
01:04:33.140 together again, you know,
01:04:35.080 it means you have to
01:04:35.900 skip, uh, playing video
01:04:37.760 games today because, you
01:04:39.000 know, you're going to go
01:04:39.640 hang out with your
01:04:40.280 neighbor who's kind of
01:04:41.120 boring and like, you
01:04:42.260 know, annoying, but he's
01:04:43.440 your neighbor and, uh,
01:04:45.020 his wife is friends with
01:04:46.140 your wife and your kids
01:04:47.340 are friends with their
01:04:47.980 kids.
01:04:48.280 So you're going to go
01:04:48.700 hang out with them, you
01:04:49.520 know, and just doing those
01:04:51.020 things that you have to
01:04:52.280 actually go out and do
01:04:53.560 instead of just talk
01:04:54.380 about, um, you know,
01:04:56.020 once we kind of admit,
01:04:57.120 uh, admit those needs,
01:04:59.500 I think that we know
01:05:00.620 that it, you know, it's
01:05:01.600 going to, it's going to
01:05:02.140 impose an obligation on
01:05:03.320 us to actually leave our
01:05:04.300 house.
01:05:05.520 Well, you know,
01:05:06.280 civilization is
01:05:07.480 indistinguishable, but,
01:05:09.040 uh, from like a
01:05:10.600 collection of low time
01:05:12.260 preference behaviors,
01:05:13.240 right?
01:05:13.640 Like you can, we could
01:05:15.460 start with, you know,
01:05:16.340 someone modern like Sam
01:05:17.640 Francis, but you can just
01:05:18.660 go right back to
01:05:19.460 Aristotle, right?
01:05:20.400 That like virtue is what
01:05:22.420 creates a civilization.
01:05:24.300 It's the ability of one
01:05:25.440 to disciplines oneself.
01:05:27.120 You know, to have a
01:05:28.200 shared understanding of
01:05:29.740 kind of what the
01:05:30.780 restrictions on behavior
01:05:31.940 should be and that
01:05:33.180 they're critical for the
01:05:34.940 perpetuation of your way
01:05:36.600 of life.
01:05:37.680 Like this is, we, we
01:05:39.120 look at, uh, kind of our
01:05:41.300 high functioning societies
01:05:42.420 now, and we think that
01:05:44.180 these things are just
01:05:45.180 kind of the way that
01:05:46.400 humans work, but of 1.00
01:05:47.380 course that's not right.
01:05:48.160 Like there's a million,
01:05:49.500 uh, civilizations in the
01:05:50.940 waste bin of history where
01:05:52.340 people just did what they
01:05:53.980 wanted to do, right?
01:05:54.960 They, or they, they, they,
01:05:56.000 they didn't put a
01:05:57.200 sufficient, uh, value on,
01:05:59.220 uh, you know, planning for
01:06:00.280 the future, denying
01:06:01.220 themselves, you know,
01:06:02.580 creating virtue.
01:06:03.760 Uh, there, there are so
01:06:04.720 many examples we can't
01:06:06.120 even begin to discuss
01:06:07.220 them now.
01:06:07.660 Right.
01:06:08.300 So, uh, what we're
01:06:09.860 looking at, I think is
01:06:11.080 just, uh, again, I think
01:06:12.540 Spengler's right.
01:06:13.220 I think civilizations have
01:06:14.300 a morphological life
01:06:15.320 cycle.
01:06:15.780 I think that entropy
01:06:17.080 acts on every collective
01:06:19.540 force of organization and
01:06:21.260 that ultimately the things
01:06:23.020 that we build up that
01:06:24.160 create great success also
01:06:25.760 get torn apart over time,
01:06:28.000 you know, being kind of
01:06:29.660 victims of their own
01:06:30.660 success.
01:06:31.460 And again, as we've kind
01:06:33.160 of discussed already, uh,
01:06:34.640 not only does entropy
01:06:35.740 wear on these things, but
01:06:37.180 the desire to modernize
01:06:38.640 and scale up is actually
01:06:40.340 pretty dependent heavily
01:06:42.140 on the annihilation of
01:06:43.400 virtue.
01:06:43.980 Uh, even though we kind of
01:06:45.260 don't recognize that
01:06:46.380 beyond a certain point,
01:06:47.420 we need to strip virtue
01:06:48.600 out of a population in
01:06:50.360 order to expand the
01:06:51.340 state's control and its
01:06:52.400 reach and the ability to
01:06:53.480 order that because again,
01:06:54.780 virtue is particular and
01:06:56.940 people are not going to
01:06:57.600 like me saying that, but
01:06:58.880 whatever, like that's the,
01:07:00.520 you know, uh, cultural
01:07:02.340 da signs are particular to
01:07:04.040 people's virtues are built
01:07:06.140 in communities.
01:07:07.080 Aristotle understood this
01:07:08.220 as well as Heidegger did
01:07:09.760 that you create, uh,
01:07:12.400 expectations and norms
01:07:14.020 that bind people together
01:07:15.500 because they live in
01:07:16.780 proximity to each other
01:07:18.260 because they recognize
01:07:19.280 within each other the
01:07:21.020 attainment of a particular
01:07:22.440 ideal.
01:07:23.540 And that's what drives
01:07:24.460 those in a community to
01:07:25.760 kind of maintain it over
01:07:27.100 time.
01:07:27.520 And once you've gotten
01:07:29.180 beyond the ability of the
01:07:30.720 community to constantly
01:07:31.920 communicate and enforce
01:07:34.240 that expectation, it's
01:07:36.040 going to atrophy.
01:07:37.200 It has to.
01:07:38.120 And so I think in a very
01:07:39.480 real sense, we can't bind
01:07:41.180 our communities back
01:07:41.860 together because we've
01:07:42.920 literally made it illegal.
01:07:44.700 Uh, it's illegal to have
01:07:46.200 real communities in the
01:07:47.260 United States because
01:07:48.420 those are dangerous to
01:07:49.880 the, I, you know, not
01:07:51.640 the, the overall imperial
01:07:53.340 identity project, right?
01:07:54.820 You can't have people who
01:07:56.420 feel specifically
01:07:57.600 Virginian because one day
01:07:58.940 they might lead a force of
01:08:00.680 Virginians against the 1.00
01:08:02.060 union, right?
01:08:02.760 Like that's, that, that's
01:08:03.920 a real problem that states
01:08:05.520 face when you have that
01:08:07.120 level of community loyalty.
01:08:08.740 And so I think we kind
01:08:10.280 of got to the natural
01:08:11.320 end of, you know,
01:08:12.340 extracting identity to
01:08:13.920 the point where we can
01:08:14.680 operate at vast scale.
01:08:16.520 But once you get there,
01:08:17.680 you recognize that, yes,
01:08:19.040 you've created, you know,
01:08:20.180 like you said, the hollow
01:08:21.220 egg or it's the Jenga
01:08:22.220 tower that we've knocked
01:08:23.280 every support, you know,
01:08:24.640 structure out of.
01:08:25.400 Yes, we built a much
01:08:26.420 higher tower of Babel, but
01:08:28.100 now we have nothing to
01:08:29.240 hold it up.
01:08:30.200 Uh, and so you're right
01:08:31.280 that ultimately we have to
01:08:32.900 find ways to bind back
01:08:34.280 together, but I don't
01:08:35.680 think we can do that in
01:08:36.860 any very abstract sense.
01:08:38.900 I think the only way
01:08:39.500 that that happens is
01:08:40.320 getting back in the room.
01:08:41.260 And I think in a way
01:08:42.680 we're at this point where
01:08:44.060 we're selecting for
01:08:45.040 something different,
01:08:45.680 right?
01:08:45.940 Like we, we were kind
01:08:47.060 of selecting for
01:08:48.080 abundance, selecting for
01:08:49.840 the ability to generate
01:08:50.960 stable calorie counts and
01:08:52.500 produce X amount of
01:08:54.380 cheap energy.
01:08:55.160 But now we're going to be
01:08:56.220 selecting for denial,
01:08:57.580 right?
01:08:58.020 Can you not hand your
01:08:58.920 kid the iPad?
01:08:59.740 Are you willing to move
01:09:01.180 across the country to an
01:09:02.220 intentional community to
01:09:03.620 live next to somebody
01:09:04.840 who's going to pray the
01:09:05.720 same way you do?
01:09:06.860 Are you willing to be
01:09:08.540 called a racist or to be
01:09:10.340 called a bigot so that
01:09:11.820 you can raise your child
01:09:13.240 in a specific way,
01:09:15.160 right?
01:09:15.460 Like you, you look at
01:09:16.600 the, uh, the Afrikaners in
01:09:19.220 South Africa, right?
01:09:20.440 Most of them just don't
01:09:21.920 want their language
01:09:22.660 annihilated.
01:09:23.340 They don't want their
01:09:23.780 culture annihilated and
01:09:25.500 they get called all kinds
01:09:26.360 of horrible names, but
01:09:27.600 they'd have to eventually
01:09:28.620 not care.
01:09:29.240 And they have to take on
01:09:30.540 their own responsibilities
01:09:31.720 of, you know, safety,
01:09:33.640 water purification,
01:09:35.000 education, all the things
01:09:36.380 the state used to do if
01:09:37.820 they want to maintain
01:09:38.400 their identity.
01:09:39.000 And those are the only
01:09:39.900 options they really have.
01:09:41.260 So ultimately I think that
01:09:42.740 those solutions get, you
01:09:44.620 know, they, they come
01:09:45.320 lower down the chain.
01:09:47.480 I don't, I don't know
01:09:48.200 that we're going to get a,
01:09:49.220 you know, empire or even
01:09:51.340 a countrywide revival of
01:09:53.480 that kind of virtue, but I
01:09:55.420 think you can build it in
01:09:56.900 specific communities.
01:09:57.920 I think you can form
01:09:58.980 communities that have that
01:10:00.200 shared vision and
01:10:01.280 understanding.
01:10:02.440 And I think we're starting
01:10:02.980 to see some of that.
01:10:03.860 I think you can see people
01:10:04.720 selecting for the ability
01:10:06.480 to deny themselves certain
01:10:08.520 things that are poisonous to
01:10:11.020 their human identity.
01:10:11.880 And that's really going to be
01:10:13.100 critical moving forward for
01:10:14.400 people who are going to kind
01:10:15.320 of transcend this post
01:10:16.760 national moment.
01:10:19.540 Yeah.
01:10:19.980 And there's also, you know,
01:10:21.100 the, um, was it Ben
01:10:22.880 Franklin or I think said that
01:10:25.020 after a few days, visitors
01:10:27.480 like fish after a few days
01:10:29.000 start to stink or something.
01:10:30.120 Right.
01:10:30.420 And, you know, that's
01:10:31.040 something everybody kind of
01:10:32.360 understands instinctively
01:10:33.640 because you could have like
01:10:34.660 your siblings or your best
01:10:36.420 friends over to your house
01:10:38.180 to stay with you for a while.
01:10:40.900 And it doesn't matter how
01:10:42.060 much you love those people.
01:10:43.860 There's going to, if they're
01:10:45.160 there for like past a certain
01:10:46.720 point, you're going to be
01:10:47.720 relieved when they're gone.
01:10:48.920 And it's not because you love
01:10:50.000 them any less or you like
01:10:51.060 them in anything like that.
01:10:52.480 It's that the people who live
01:10:53.720 in the house with you,
01:10:54.500 you guys have a rapport
01:10:56.360 that's been built up over
01:10:57.340 years that I don't have to
01:10:58.840 explain everything that I
01:11:00.800 mean to you.
01:11:01.420 You already know.
01:11:02.260 I don't have to like, you
01:11:04.220 know, avoid certain ways of
01:11:05.920 putting things because like
01:11:07.300 you don't, you're not in on
01:11:08.300 the joke or whatever.
01:11:09.320 There's just, um, all of
01:11:10.880 these unspoken customs in a
01:11:12.760 household that even your
01:11:14.040 best friends are not really a
01:11:15.240 part of.
01:11:15.640 And so, um, you have to sort
01:11:17.360 of be on more and sort of
01:11:19.240 like, you know, just you have
01:11:20.460 to be on when anybody is, is
01:11:22.260 visiting you in a way that
01:11:23.620 you don't when it's just
01:11:24.560 there with your, with your
01:11:25.440 family.
01:11:26.220 And that, but, you know, you
01:11:27.480 can take that and do it at
01:11:29.480 each kind of concentric
01:11:30.620 layer.
01:11:31.060 You know, you should be that
01:11:31.980 way with your community.
01:11:32.920 You're in your community and
01:11:34.580 yeah, not quite the same
01:11:35.600 level as like my household,
01:11:37.120 but I know these people and
01:11:38.840 they know me.
01:11:39.420 Like, because even if I don't
01:11:40.960 know that particular person,
01:11:42.320 like personally, like I go
01:11:44.120 visit their house by being in
01:11:45.740 the same community, like
01:11:46.740 there's just certain things
01:11:47.700 that we understand about each
01:11:49.040 other and like all that,
01:11:50.220 that, and then you can do
01:11:51.660 that all the way up to like
01:11:52.860 a national level.
01:11:53.780 I mean, it's like a
01:11:54.400 challenge maybe, but, um,
01:11:57.120 but I think you can do it.
01:11:58.200 I mean, you go to an, I go
01:11:59.180 to, you know, England or
01:12:00.260 something and I'm, I feel
01:12:01.500 good when I get back off the
01:12:02.680 plane in the United States,
01:12:03.860 you know what I mean?
01:12:04.980 And, uh, um, you know,
01:12:07.800 that that's the very thing
01:12:08.980 that I think is kind of
01:12:09.860 broken down at every level so
01:12:11.520 that people don't really feel
01:12:12.760 that level of comfort, even
01:12:13.860 in their own households, you
01:12:15.180 know, because everybody's
01:12:15.840 kind of an individual doing
01:12:16.920 their own thing, even
01:12:17.800 within the family, let
01:12:19.300 alone in communities or
01:12:20.440 larger collectivities,
01:12:21.480 everybody kind of, you
01:12:22.720 know, they feel like it's
01:12:23.660 exhausting just to be in
01:12:24.820 the world because you have
01:12:25.700 to be on all the time
01:12:26.920 because everybody is this
01:12:28.040 sort of, you know, uh,
01:12:29.820 half recognized, half
01:12:31.120 familiar other individuals
01:12:32.760 doing their thing that you
01:12:33.720 have to sort of adapt to.
01:12:35.080 And, um, you know, I think
01:12:37.960 we all want to live among
01:12:39.680 our people, you know, and
01:12:41.420 that what that means, you
01:12:43.820 know, can vary from place
01:12:44.960 to place.
01:12:45.520 Um, but everybody wants
01:12:47.100 to live among their
01:12:48.080 people.
01:12:48.880 And, uh, when people
01:12:50.080 don't, um, I mean, even
01:12:52.860 if you have like, you
01:12:53.740 know, traditional, like
01:12:54.420 immigrant groups or
01:12:55.560 nomadic groups or whatever,
01:12:57.060 like within a larger, uh,
01:12:59.520 polity that doesn't belong
01:13:00.720 to them, they stick together
01:13:02.000 because they want to be
01:13:02.700 among their people.
01:13:03.360 You know, it's just, it's,
01:13:04.660 it's very natural because
01:13:06.000 of the, just of the
01:13:08.360 mental and emotional work
01:13:10.600 that has to, you know,
01:13:11.620 that goes into having to be
01:13:12.740 around people who aren't.
01:13:14.280 Um, and so, yeah, I mean,
01:13:16.220 we have to reconstruct
01:13:17.160 those things, but I do
01:13:18.260 think we're, I do think
01:13:20.020 we're really like starting
01:13:21.100 from scratch.
01:13:21.560 And I like the idea of
01:13:22.640 like what you, what you
01:13:23.880 said about denial, because
01:13:25.220 I mean, that is going to
01:13:26.000 be, you know, I, you
01:13:29.240 know, you think about
01:13:29.920 like the difficulties of
01:13:32.040 raising like a kid today
01:13:33.680 in school when you can
01:13:35.300 protect them, like all
01:13:37.040 you want, you know, you
01:13:38.100 don't want to, every
01:13:39.100 parent, you don't want to
01:13:39.900 be too protective because
01:13:41.180 they'll come out weird or
01:13:42.360 they'll, you know, whatever
01:13:43.040 it is, but you can try to
01:13:44.560 protect them.
01:13:45.300 But little Johnny brings
01:13:46.540 his smartphone to school
01:13:47.540 and now you're telling
01:13:48.320 your six-year-old, you
01:13:49.280 have to answer the
01:13:50.520 question of like, you
01:13:51.840 know, what some horrific
01:13:53.620 sexual perversion is 0.60
01:13:55.280 because little Johnny
01:13:55.980 brought his phone to
01:13:56.700 school.
01:13:57.160 And so, you know, finding
01:13:58.680 other people who are not
01:14:00.340 going to give little
01:14:01.800 Johnny a smartphone to
01:14:03.020 come show your kid and
01:14:04.080 knowing, you know, that
01:14:04.880 you can trust those
01:14:05.500 people in that sense, it's
01:14:06.980 going to become more and
01:14:07.680 more important.
01:14:09.260 Yeah.
01:14:09.460 Can I send my kid to a
01:14:11.460 friend's house to an
01:14:12.340 neighbor's house for a
01:14:13.080 sleepover without having
01:14:14.500 their entire world
01:14:15.240 destroyed?
01:14:15.760 That increasingly is
01:14:16.940 impossible and you have
01:14:19.040 to find a way to make it
01:14:19.860 possible.
01:14:20.360 Literally, the future
01:14:21.140 depends on it.
01:14:22.460 And so we could try
01:14:24.200 large-scale, you know,
01:14:25.680 Luddite, you know,
01:14:27.260 action.
01:14:27.860 We could try a high
01:14:29.040 degree of government
01:14:30.480 regulation.
01:14:31.420 But ultimately, what's
01:14:32.780 going to solve this
01:14:33.460 problem is actual
01:14:35.460 organic human structures.
01:14:37.880 That's the only thing
01:14:38.780 that ever has and it's the
01:14:39.940 only thing that ever can.
01:14:42.360 And so I really do think
01:14:44.360 that is going to be the
01:14:45.260 challenge moving forward.
01:14:47.640 That said, we could
01:14:48.820 literally do this for
01:14:50.180 several hours.
01:14:50.880 In fact, we've suggested
01:14:51.800 doing a part two over on
01:14:54.080 your side.
01:14:54.720 So maybe we will do this
01:14:55.680 for a few more hours.
01:14:56.820 But we have stacked up a
01:14:58.040 large amount of super
01:14:59.280 chats.
01:14:59.640 I know you've got stuff
01:15:00.420 going on so you can hang
01:15:02.140 around for as short or
01:15:04.040 long as you are able.
01:15:05.200 But we should probably
01:15:06.000 shuffle over that
01:15:07.320 direction.
01:15:08.740 Do you want anybody to
01:15:10.020 check out?
01:15:10.500 I know you've got a new
01:15:10.960 series coming out, all
01:15:11.720 kinds of stuff.
01:15:12.340 Where should people go to
01:15:13.340 listen to what you're
01:15:14.340 doing, what you're writing,
01:15:15.260 what you're talking about
01:15:16.040 before we move to the
01:15:16.820 questions?
01:15:17.520 Yeah, the podcast is
01:15:18.620 Martyr Made. 0.89
01:15:19.740 The new series is called
01:15:21.460 Enemy, the Germans War. 0.60
01:15:23.660 The part one is out now.
01:15:25.700 Part two will be along.
01:15:27.940 Hopefully by the I think
01:15:28.800 by the end of this month,
01:15:29.740 part two will be out.
01:15:30.660 So I've got the sub stack,
01:15:32.580 which you can find at
01:15:33.340 subscribe.martyrmade.com.
01:15:35.940 Um, basically like the
01:15:38.600 way I try to use the
01:15:39.520 sub stack is, you know,
01:15:40.980 there's a lot of stuff
01:15:41.760 that goes into every
01:15:42.720 episode that I'm
01:15:43.460 researching for the
01:15:44.180 regular podcast that
01:15:45.380 either doesn't make it
01:15:46.640 into the show or it's
01:15:47.560 too detailed or kind of
01:15:48.900 a tangent that would
01:15:50.160 take me too far off the
01:15:51.540 narrative that I want to
01:15:52.560 explore in the show, but
01:15:54.040 it's interesting
01:15:54.520 information.
01:15:55.040 And so, um, I use the
01:15:56.820 sub stack for that, you
01:15:57.820 know, to kind of think
01:15:58.620 out loud and also, um,
01:16:01.080 you know, just interact
01:16:02.200 with, uh, my subscribers
01:16:03.600 and, and I, you know, I
01:16:04.500 learn a lot from my, my
01:16:05.620 subscribers actually, you
01:16:06.940 know, I just wrote, I
01:16:07.660 just, the last thing I
01:16:08.640 did was I put up a 17
01:16:09.980 page essay on, uh, how
01:16:13.180 this first world war led
01:16:14.500 to the second world war.
01:16:16.140 And, um, that's the
01:16:17.420 kind of thing that I do
01:16:18.080 there.
01:16:18.600 Um, I, I provide like
01:16:19.740 audio versions for
01:16:20.620 everything.
01:16:20.900 And I also do like
01:16:21.960 subscribers only podcasts
01:16:23.220 and stuff, but anyway,
01:16:24.480 uh, yeah, let's do the
01:16:25.180 super jets.
01:16:26.460 Absolutely.
01:16:27.120 Uh, heading over to
01:16:28.660 Gabby of Lindbergh says,
01:16:30.460 uh, old glory club,
01:16:31.620 New York city come, uh,
01:16:33.720 PS love both of your
01:16:35.240 content.
01:16:35.940 Yeah.
01:16:36.360 If you have not, uh,
01:16:37.480 checked out the old glory
01:16:38.480 club, they are doing
01:16:39.380 excellent work.
01:16:40.320 You should definitely do
01:16:41.180 so.
01:16:42.300 Robert Winesfield here
01:16:43.340 says, Martyrmead, what
01:16:44.320 is your take in response
01:16:45.860 to great Connelly's
01:16:46.940 critique?
01:16:49.220 I'm not sure what he's
01:16:50.320 talking about.
01:16:50.920 So I'm going to assume
01:16:52.800 he's talking about
01:16:53.800 gray's, uh, critique of
01:16:55.760 my position on Churchill.
01:16:57.220 Um, now gray's an
01:16:59.460 awesome dude.
01:17:00.080 He's an Australian
01:17:00.920 barrister, Navy veteran
01:17:02.720 officer, um, super
01:17:05.100 smart and very much
01:17:06.460 like, um, he's an old
01:17:08.660 school, like Commonwealth
01:17:09.720 guy.
01:17:10.200 I mean, he's like glory
01:17:11.260 of the British empire,
01:17:12.220 like in heart and soul,
01:17:13.620 you know, and, but he's
01:17:14.940 a friend of mine.
01:17:15.500 And so he didn't freak
01:17:16.440 out when I said what I
01:17:17.380 said, and, uh, we've
01:17:18.480 talked about it before.
01:17:19.640 Uh, but his critique was
01:17:21.020 interesting because he
01:17:21.840 knows about as much
01:17:22.760 about that period from
01:17:23.760 the British and
01:17:24.440 Commonwealth
01:17:24.820 perspective as anybody
01:17:25.960 I know.
01:17:26.520 And he didn't actually
01:17:28.260 criticize any of the
01:17:30.580 points that I made with
01:17:31.760 the exception of whether
01:17:33.260 Churchill personally
01:17:34.440 should be held
01:17:35.700 responsible for any of
01:17:36.820 the decisions that were
01:17:37.560 made because his, in
01:17:38.480 his point was that
01:17:39.520 Churchill could have
01:17:40.620 gotten hit by a bus.
01:17:41.500 The next guy, it
01:17:42.140 didn't matter who it
01:17:42.740 was.
01:17:42.980 If somehow Neville
01:17:44.260 Chamberlain could have
01:17:45.180 been compelled to stay
01:17:46.240 in office and stay alive,
01:17:47.600 he would have done the
01:17:48.340 same things.
01:17:48.860 Like that's where
01:17:49.660 British policy was at
01:17:50.840 the time.
01:17:51.980 Churchill was in favor
01:17:53.900 of that policy.
01:17:54.760 That's why he was put
01:17:55.580 in there.
01:17:55.960 But if he wasn't, it
01:17:57.040 wouldn't have changed
01:17:57.660 anything.
01:17:58.020 And so it's hard to
01:17:58.900 hold him so personally
01:17:59.940 responsible.
01:18:00.760 And that's a well-taken
01:18:01.780 critique.
01:18:04.320 Uh, Jose Velasquez says
01:18:06.060 unrelated.
01:18:06.880 Would love to hear
01:18:07.340 Daryl's thoughts on
01:18:08.160 Aronofsky's The
01:18:08.980 Fountain.
01:18:09.440 One of my favorites,
01:18:10.440 eight hour series about
01:18:11.420 it.
01:18:11.860 When?
01:18:12.680 Yeah, it's been a long
01:18:13.560 time since I've seen
01:18:14.240 that movie.
01:18:14.740 Are you a fan of, oh,
01:18:15.740 well, there you go.
01:18:17.700 Have you seen it before?
01:18:19.740 Yep.
01:18:20.200 I love that movie.
01:18:21.120 It's one of my
01:18:21.620 favorites.
01:18:22.040 Um, I just watched it
01:18:24.020 with my mom not too
01:18:25.640 long ago.
01:18:26.600 Uh, it's a beautiful
01:18:28.020 film.
01:18:28.540 Yeah, I really love
01:18:29.500 it.
01:18:29.820 I don't, I, if I start
01:18:31.400 talking about it, we'll
01:18:32.080 be here for a long
01:18:32.600 time, but I can write
01:18:33.740 about it if he wants me
01:18:34.580 to.
01:18:34.960 We need to put you on,
01:18:36.080 uh, my buddy last
01:18:37.100 things podcast.
01:18:37.940 He does one every year.
01:18:39.400 He does a film festival
01:18:40.600 of kind of a sorted
01:18:41.840 right wing, uh, uh,
01:18:43.520 content creators.
01:18:44.320 So we'll have to book
01:18:45.880 you there next year
01:18:46.520 with the fountain.
01:18:47.700 Sounds good.
01:18:49.380 Atraxia says long
01:18:50.480 time listener.
01:18:51.160 First time watching
01:18:52.060 live.
01:18:52.380 I at least recently
01:18:53.160 that an article from
01:18:54.300 Ryan, uh, McMakin on
01:18:56.700 LRC, uh, referring,
01:18:58.440 uh, dissolution of the
01:18:59.820 U S citizenship. 0.98
01:19:01.060 It would appear to, uh,
01:19:02.720 to this student of
01:19:03.640 history that this would
01:19:04.800 be an, uh, amazing in
01:19:06.440 terms of freedom.
01:19:10.360 Sure.
01:19:10.820 I quite picked up the
01:19:11.520 question there.
01:19:12.160 Did you?
01:19:12.480 Um, I don't know who
01:19:14.720 Ryan is or what LRC
01:19:16.860 is.
01:19:18.120 Um, I would just say
01:19:19.980 that I do not think
01:19:21.060 dissolution of citizenship,
01:19:22.440 uh, would benefit,
01:19:25.400 would benefit anybody.
01:19:26.980 Um, I think, you know,
01:19:28.840 I mean, like we've sort
01:19:31.080 of done that to a degree
01:19:32.400 already just by, you
01:19:34.680 know, devaluing it to the
01:19:36.240 point that we have.
01:19:37.120 I mean, Tripp literally
01:19:38.220 announced that we're going
01:19:38.900 to be selling it.
01:19:39.700 Right.
01:19:39.920 And you got, you got a
01:19:40.680 gold membership now.
01:19:42.120 Yeah.
01:19:42.560 We'll get it right.
01:19:43.380 Yeah.
01:19:43.560 Like, it's just, um, you
01:19:45.260 know, it's not something
01:19:46.160 that you, uh, that you,
01:19:48.860 that you work to earn and
01:19:50.340 deserve every day as a
01:19:51.820 member of a common, you
01:19:53.500 know, uh, political and
01:19:54.720 social, uh, project.
01:19:56.240 It's just sort of something
01:19:57.540 that is given to you like a
01:19:59.520 merit badge when you show
01:20:00.760 up on American soil.
01:20:01.860 Like, I think that everybody
01:20:03.060 suffers from that, you know,
01:20:04.320 including the people who do
01:20:05.560 immigrate here and become 1.00
01:20:07.060 naturalized citizens.
01:20:08.140 You know, everybody wants,
01:20:09.740 uh, their citizenship to
01:20:11.660 really mean something, you
01:20:13.100 know, and, and it should be
01:20:14.180 something that, and to, you
01:20:16.400 know, actually to, to Rome's
01:20:18.000 credit, I mean, that's one
01:20:19.340 thing you could say is you
01:20:20.440 go, you know, even up into
01:20:21.660 the Imperial period, um, people
01:20:24.120 who were Roman citizens, you
01:20:25.440 know, in Syria or something
01:20:26.600 like that, they wore that on
01:20:27.620 their sleeve.
01:20:28.140 They were very proud of the
01:20:29.080 fact that they were Roman
01:20:29.920 citizens, you know?
01:20:30.840 So, and that's something
01:20:31.960 that, uh, we've really, I
01:20:34.660 mean, we've kind of really
01:20:35.900 lost even that, you know?
01:20:38.260 Well, it's, it's, uh, you
01:20:39.880 know, having lived in, uh,
01:20:41.460 South Florida, most of my
01:20:43.080 life, I'm pretty familiar with
01:20:44.620 a large amount of, uh, you
01:20:45.940 know, immigration and people
01:20:47.360 who've come in.
01:20:47.980 And my experience is basically
01:20:49.640 every immigrant wants to be 1.00
01:20:50.960 the last immigrant. 0.85
01:20:52.400 Uh, you know, like they, they
01:20:53.580 all want to join the thing and
01:20:54.980 then they don't want anyone
01:20:55.740 else.
01:20:56.100 You know, that's why when
01:20:56.800 people were shocked that so
01:20:58.100 many Hispanic men voted for
01:20:59.360 Trump, even though he just
01:21:00.260 pushed for, you know,
01:21:01.560 closing the border and
01:21:02.400 deportation, I was like,
01:21:03.300 well, yeah, of course they
01:21:04.080 did.
01:21:04.320 Cause like they actually want
01:21:05.660 to be a part of the United
01:21:06.640 States, like as it is, they,
01:21:08.460 you know, so I think that's a,
01:21:10.340 that's a pretty common, uh,
01:21:11.580 thing actually.
01:21:13.160 Uh, philosophical thirst
01:21:14.520 worm says it's hard to sell
01:21:15.960 the disastrous American 0.93
01:21:17.020 following policy.
01:21:17.880 If you can't harken back to
01:21:19.280 the Graham brothers, scary
01:21:20.460 story about the boogeyman
01:21:22.140 that is world war two.
01:21:23.760 Yeah.
01:21:23.980 And I think we kind of
01:21:24.960 covered that, but that, that
01:21:26.140 is generally one of the huge
01:21:27.880 problems with that, uh,
01:21:29.560 period being this
01:21:30.760 untouchable, uh, uh, kind
01:21:32.820 of, uh, narrative inside is
01:21:34.760 that we, we get completely
01:21:36.700 perverted and thrown out
01:21:37.900 every time someone wants to
01:21:38.960 go to war.
01:21:39.340 Saddam Hussein is going to 0.99
01:21:40.380 conquer the entire Middle 1.00
01:21:41.360 East, Vladimir Putin.
01:21:42.820 He's losing to Ukraine, but
01:21:44.220 also he could be in Spain by
01:21:45.900 next week.
01:21:46.420 If we don't send every
01:21:47.380 dollar, uh, you know, defy
01:21:49.040 it, like these things can't
01:21:50.260 be true.
01:21:50.720 And yet we continue to repeat
01:21:52.000 them because everyone is
01:21:53.000 Hitler and everyone is going 1.00
01:21:54.520 to be marching through the
01:21:55.760 entirety of Western Europe.
01:21:57.060 If we, you know, don't let
01:21:58.520 them work out their political
01:22:00.220 differences inside different
01:22:01.460 spheres, I guess.
01:22:02.940 Yeah.
01:22:03.380 I'll just defend the brothers
01:22:04.960 grim here because they were 0.99
01:22:06.340 very strong, focused German
01:22:07.860 nationalists.
01:22:08.720 So there you go.
01:22:10.300 Easy, easy.
01:22:11.700 Uh, uh, we'll, uh, skip the
01:22:13.980 name there.
01:22:14.400 Thank you, sir.
01:22:14.960 A long time listener.
01:22:16.000 First time super chatting.
01:22:17.220 You show is the best part of
01:22:18.500 my workday.
01:22:19.180 I think, uh, I think an
01:22:20.760 interesting topic, if you
01:22:21.780 haven't yet would be exploring
01:22:23.100 why June X overwhelmingly voted
01:22:25.060 for Trump.
01:22:27.080 Well, thank you very much.
01:22:28.040 And yeah, that is interesting.
01:22:29.260 You know, I, um, I've seen a
01:22:31.660 lot of surveys saying that
01:22:32.520 actually, uh, the youngest
01:22:33.720 voters as well, uh, you know,
01:22:35.620 really like that 18 to, uh,
01:22:37.740 kind of 27 ish demographic
01:22:39.780 were the most bullish on
01:22:41.460 Trump, uh, which is another
01:22:42.980 interesting shift.
01:22:43.660 I'd have to break down that
01:22:44.600 data more to get at how
01:22:46.560 serious that is.
01:22:48.080 Uh, but, uh, it, it would
01:22:49.620 probably be worth breaking down
01:22:51.180 kind of generational, uh,
01:22:53.220 responses to Trump overall.
01:22:55.040 I think that could be an
01:22:55.900 interesting place to explore.
01:22:57.740 Yeah.
01:22:58.140 I think, um, you know, I, I
01:22:59.440 try to define generations
01:23:01.480 based on like what stage of
01:23:04.020 your life you were in when
01:23:05.180 some like era defining moment
01:23:07.200 happened, right?
01:23:07.880 Like if you were 25 and, you
01:23:10.780 know, potentially going to be
01:23:11.780 called up for service when
01:23:12.900 nine 11 happened, uh, it's
01:23:14.860 you're different than if you
01:23:16.180 were 10 when it happened.
01:23:17.400 I mean, it's just, you know,
01:23:18.480 things crystallize.
01:23:19.820 If, you know, if you happen to
01:23:21.040 be a senior citizen and your
01:23:22.240 grandson's going off to war
01:23:23.840 or, you know, your dad's
01:23:25.720 going off, those are
01:23:26.500 different things, you know?
01:23:27.440 And so your relationship to,
01:23:29.500 uh, these sort of error
01:23:31.200 defining events, like I
01:23:32.560 think separates generations.
01:23:33.820 And, you know, just the
01:23:34.580 other day on Twitter, I was
01:23:35.560 musing about the fact that
01:23:36.760 in the next midterm election,
01:23:38.700 you were going to have people
01:23:40.040 voting who were not born when
01:23:41.560 the 2008 financial crisis
01:23:43.140 happened.
01:23:44.260 And, you know, what that
01:23:45.320 means too, is those people
01:23:46.620 that you talk about, like
01:23:48.320 those youngest, youngest
01:23:49.340 generation, you know, they
01:23:51.120 were eight when Obama left
01:23:52.400 office, they missed out on
01:23:54.020 all that indoctrination and
01:23:55.340 all that excitement and all
01:23:56.580 that kind of stuff, you
01:23:57.480 know, they're, you know,
01:23:58.940 nine years old when, when
01:24:00.460 Donald Trump was like, you
01:24:02.320 know, first running for
01:24:03.760 president, you know?
01:24:04.640 And so, um, you know, and
01:24:07.180 those people are going to be
01:24:08.280 voting.
01:24:09.140 I mean, think about this.
01:24:09.920 Like I was born in 1981,
01:24:12.020 Vietnam, South Vietnam fell
01:24:13.700 to North Vietnam in 1975.
01:24:15.260 So six years before I was
01:24:16.760 born, people are going to be
01:24:18.220 voting in this next election
01:24:19.520 who were born seven years
01:24:21.080 after 9-11.
01:24:22.860 And so, um, you know, it's,
01:24:26.240 I think that's, you know,
01:24:27.200 that's the reason that it can
01:24:28.520 be hard to relate across
01:24:29.820 generations, but, um, you
01:24:32.060 know, there is something that
01:24:32.760 you commonly observe, which
01:24:33.900 is that like certain
01:24:35.440 mentalities or certain
01:24:36.480 aspects of generational
01:24:37.660 mentality sort of skip
01:24:38.940 generations.
01:24:39.740 And so you have like boomers 1.00
01:24:41.120 and millennials, I think they
01:24:42.900 recognize each other pretty
01:24:43.900 well, um, Xers and Zoomers, 0.99
01:24:46.240 maybe we recognize each other
01:24:47.720 pretty well.
01:24:48.380 You know what I mean?
01:24:49.620 Um, and I think, you know,
01:24:51.160 the, uh, I think Xers and 0.86
01:24:53.040 Zoomers are two generations 1.00
01:24:55.960 that, uh, were very much
01:24:58.800 just abandoned by the
01:25:00.040 previous generations in
01:25:01.300 really significant ways.
01:25:02.640 You know, X was like sort of
01:25:04.260 more directly, everybody's
01:25:05.200 parents got divorced and
01:25:06.460 they were partying in their
01:25:07.880 forties and every, you know,
01:25:08.980 we were all latchkey kids
01:25:10.160 running the streets as
01:25:11.100 society fell apart in the
01:25:12.400 seventies and eighties, you
01:25:13.420 know, um, Zoomers, like 1.00
01:25:16.000 they weren't, it wasn't
01:25:16.780 like that.
01:25:17.300 Like they're not allowed to
01:25:18.360 walk down to the corner
01:25:19.460 store by themselves when
01:25:20.640 they're 12 years old because
01:25:21.900 you know, the parents would
01:25:22.940 probably get arrested for
01:25:23.840 neglect or something.
01:25:24.760 But, um, but in terms of
01:25:26.960 like the moral world they
01:25:28.160 live in, the social world
01:25:29.340 they live in, you know,
01:25:30.160 just, just, they, they
01:25:32.080 were thrown completely on
01:25:33.320 their own devices to go
01:25:34.360 figure it out because the
01:25:35.580 parents, they just didn't
01:25:36.360 understand what was going
01:25:37.300 on.
01:25:37.700 You know, I mean, they're,
01:25:38.660 they, they just were not
01:25:40.220 born into the, into the
01:25:42.120 world of the internet and
01:25:43.160 modern media and everything.
01:25:44.240 They didn't understand it.
01:25:44.960 Didn't have anything to
01:25:45.520 teach their kids.
01:25:46.640 And so the Zoomers had like 0.98
01:25:47.920 the Xers had to figure life 1.00
01:25:49.180 out on their own.
01:25:50.260 And I think when you have
01:25:51.380 to do that, there's a
01:25:52.340 certain level of
01:25:53.100 conservatism that like
01:25:54.360 naturally gets embedded in
01:25:56.200 you, you know, when you've
01:25:56.980 actually had to go out and
01:25:58.080 figure out life on your
01:25:59.740 own rather than give the
01:26:01.380 teacher the right answer,
01:26:02.560 you know, which is like the
01:26:03.540 millennials, hyper protected
01:26:04.820 grew up in the nineties and
01:26:07.200 like the, the early two
01:26:08.800 thousands and, you know,
01:26:10.340 and I don't want to, well,
01:26:11.620 I shouldn't like, uh, I
01:26:14.260 don't want to, I don't want
01:26:15.100 to, um, you know, paint too
01:26:16.840 rosy of a picture of the
01:26:17.760 millennials generation.
01:26:18.760 I mean, you know, a lot of
01:26:20.080 them graduated high school,
01:26:22.500 uh, or college just in time
01:26:24.900 for the financial crisis to
01:26:26.220 happen.
01:26:26.940 Their entire lives, our
01:26:28.480 politics has been complete
01:26:29.860 insanity, you know, um, just
01:26:31.640 vulgar, disgusting.
01:26:32.860 Um, and you know, they got
01:26:35.520 their financial lives
01:26:37.540 together and their careers
01:26:38.580 and families together, maybe
01:26:39.740 by 2018, 2019 and COVID
01:26:41.740 happens.
01:26:42.200 I mean, you know, they've
01:26:43.600 had their lives thrown into
01:26:44.520 a blender a million times,
01:26:45.880 but, um, but I think like,
01:26:48.460 you know, that the, the, the
01:26:49.800 difference of, you know,
01:26:51.520 being thrown out on your own
01:26:52.920 resources from a very early
01:26:54.400 age is something that Xers and 1.00
01:26:55.820 Zoomers do share. 1.00
01:26:58.760 Robert, uh, Weinsfeld says
01:27:00.600 martyr made is the unraveling
01:27:02.440 done or paused, missed it.
01:27:04.920 Yeah.
01:27:05.360 So it's, um, paused, you
01:27:07.100 know, we're still, um, like
01:27:08.320 Jocko and I don't live in the
01:27:10.080 same city anymore.
01:27:10.780 He's still in San Diego.
01:27:11.820 I live up in North Idaho.
01:27:13.220 Um, we talk all the time
01:27:14.420 about, you know, when he comes
01:27:15.920 up to his place in big sky,
01:27:17.260 I got to come out there,
01:27:18.300 we'll record a few episodes
01:27:19.300 or something, but it's really
01:27:20.860 just a matter of making it
01:27:21.840 happen.
01:27:22.640 It was hard enough for us to
01:27:24.440 sync up our schedules and
01:27:26.540 connect when we were both in
01:27:27.720 San Diego.
01:27:28.220 So, you know, it's tough now.
01:27:31.040 Uh, Thimpler says, uh,
01:27:32.440 there were senators in Rome
01:27:33.800 who warned that buying into
01:27:35.080 Cato's blood rage would
01:27:36.380 corrupt the Roman virtue.
01:27:37.540 I think the Cyclops of DC is
01:27:40.080 like that.
01:27:42.300 Uh, Dan Crenshaw, the Cato of
01:27:44.180 his day.
01:27:46.140 Um, well, let's not get
01:27:48.380 carried away.
01:27:49.640 Yeah, let's not get carried
01:27:51.260 away.
01:27:51.680 Uh, philosophical thirst one
01:27:55.380 says, the 1930s pearl clutching,
01:27:57.040 uh, talking heads exasperated
01:27:58.920 that the current moment is
01:28:00.300 just like, uh, the Babylonian
01:28:02.520 exile.
01:28:03.420 Uh, yeah, don't get that, that
01:28:05.200 reference as often anymore, but
01:28:06.560 yeah, no, it's, it's, it's a
01:28:08.120 constant, uh, it's a constant,
01:28:09.560 uh, refrain back to the 1930s
01:28:11.820 here.
01:28:12.680 Uh, Cosmo says, liberalism is the
01:28:15.080 dynamic ideology, ideological
01:28:17.080 framework that homogenizes and
01:28:18.940 killed tradition, duty, God, in
01:28:21.060 order to lubricate commercial
01:28:22.980 aggregate capital in the ruling
01:28:25.200 class.
01:28:26.120 Uh, yeah, I mean, again, I
01:28:27.700 think there's a lot of that.
01:28:28.820 Uh, I don't think it's purely
01:28:30.040 material, uh, but if you want
01:28:31.740 to go, you know, straight to
01:28:33.540 like a, uh, D, uh, de
01:28:36.120 territorialization, re
01:28:37.300 territorialization, uh, kind of,
01:28:40.080 um, uh, uh, argument like
01:28:43.940 that, yeah, I think that there's
01:28:45.760 certainly, again, I think these
01:28:47.560 ideologies, these, uh, tend to
01:28:49.760 work in concert with both the
01:28:51.780 spiritual and the material
01:28:53.440 developments of the time.
01:28:55.040 Uh, but it's, it's certainly
01:28:56.380 true that one of the reasons
01:28:57.640 that liberalism was so
01:28:59.260 successful is that ultimately
01:29:00.660 it facilitated the ability to
01:29:02.660 meld many different commercial
01:29:03.880 spheres together, specifically
01:29:05.480 because it got, it dismissed the
01:29:07.160 particular and, and, and open
01:29:08.680 people up to kind of a minimum
01:29:10.140 basic operating, uh, procedure for
01:29:12.480 a while, which worked until it
01:29:14.060 didn't.
01:29:14.400 And we're kind of dealing with the
01:29:15.400 fallout now.
01:29:16.580 Yeah.
01:29:16.980 It kind of fits very well with
01:29:18.680 like seagoing commercial
01:29:20.160 republics, you know, whether
01:29:21.640 Athens or, um, Venice, you know,
01:29:24.760 or the Anglo countries, or even
01:29:26.540 you could look at, um, a good
01:29:27.820 one would be looking at like the
01:29:28.920 Dutch and the Germans, you know,
01:29:30.540 just blood wise, there's not much
01:29:33.080 separation between those two
01:29:34.860 peoples.
01:29:35.820 Um, but the Dutch were seagoing 1.00
01:29:37.620 commercial republic and, uh, the
01:29:40.180 Germans were continental land
01:29:41.920 power and one, you know, until
01:29:43.500 again, until they were conquered
01:29:45.140 by us in the Soviet union, um, was
01:29:47.280 naturally sort of conservative
01:29:48.600 while the other was much more
01:29:50.280 like the Anglo countries.
01:29:51.340 So yeah, that's, that's always
01:29:52.480 been interesting.
01:29:54.180 Florida Henry says, love your
01:29:55.600 podcast.
01:29:56.280 Just finished the Jim Jones part.
01:29:58.080 Any parallels of the people's
01:30:00.040 temple and the modern left?
01:30:03.140 Uh, yeah, that's, that was kind
01:30:04.840 of the, that was kind of the
01:30:06.200 theme of the podcast in a lot of
01:30:07.780 ways.
01:30:08.060 I mean, like, you know, one of the
01:30:09.960 things that I, that I thought
01:30:12.020 about and have said ever since I
01:30:13.860 did that podcast is like, you
01:30:16.060 know, I think it's like a very
01:30:17.120 real possibility and a scary
01:30:18.800 thing.
01:30:20.060 You know, Jim Jones got a
01:30:21.000 thousand people to kill
01:30:22.040 themselves out in the jungles
01:30:23.260 in Guyana with modern media
01:30:25.240 communication and the internet.
01:30:26.580 I mean, I don't think it's
01:30:28.080 entirely outside the
01:30:29.040 possibility that we wake up
01:30:30.300 one day and find that 10
01:30:31.360 million people committed
01:30:32.340 suicide because of some like,
01:30:34.160 you know, movement like that.
01:30:35.480 And my next thought after that
01:30:37.260 was that that's kind of what
01:30:38.660 transgenderism is.
01:30:39.760 You know, it's not like literal
01:30:41.420 suicide, but I mean, it, you
01:30:43.100 know, it might as well be.
01:30:45.020 Yeah.
01:30:45.240 And like, you know, we know
01:30:47.240 it's been pretty well
01:30:48.200 established now that the way
01:30:49.660 that this spreads by social
01:30:51.020 contagion and that it, you
01:30:52.660 know, it's got all the, all
01:30:53.840 the markings of like a cult
01:30:56.120 that's distinguished from like a
01:30:57.420 religion in terms of like, they
01:30:58.640 expect you to reorient your
01:31:00.440 entire life to make this new
01:31:02.540 thing, the center of your life
01:31:04.140 to the exclusion.
01:31:05.880 You know, they, it actively
01:31:07.040 works to try to separate you
01:31:08.580 from everything you knew
01:31:09.640 before, because those things
01:31:11.280 might potentially try to draw
01:31:12.600 you out of the movement.
01:31:13.740 You know, people who try to
01:31:14.980 leave the movement are punished
01:31:16.600 by people who remain in the
01:31:18.140 movement like terribly.
01:31:20.380 You know, it really wants to
01:31:21.640 control your whole life and it
01:31:22.920 pulls people in and gets them
01:31:24.520 to take a step that sort of
01:31:27.360 marks them for life and makes
01:31:28.680 it hard to back out, you know?
01:31:30.440 And so I would, you know, to
01:31:31.820 me, that's a, it's, it's an
01:31:33.420 obvious cult, you know, it's,
01:31:35.280 we don't think of it that way
01:31:36.160 because there's not a Jim Jones
01:31:37.460 up at the top, but, you know,
01:31:39.540 with modern media technology, I
01:31:41.040 mean, decentralized cults are
01:31:42.500 not a, I mean, look at even
01:31:44.540 QAnon or something, you know,
01:31:46.260 whether QAnon was being run
01:31:47.660 from Langley or whether it was
01:31:49.840 just sort of a naturally
01:31:51.980 emergent thing of people
01:31:53.460 shitposting and like it just
01:31:55.820 sort of catching on and
01:31:57.040 becoming a thing.
01:31:57.780 Like I know people who are, who
01:31:59.140 went to jail because they bought
01:32:00.460 into that stuff and like broke
01:32:01.700 into a government building, you
01:32:03.080 know, people who were not
01:32:04.720 crazy before that, by the way,
01:32:06.720 like, like, yeah, I'll just
01:32:09.580 leave it at that.
01:32:10.040 People who were, I known for a
01:32:11.380 long time, normal people who
01:32:13.560 lost their minds over that.
01:32:14.920 And like, uh, you can, that's
01:32:16.920 an example of what can happen,
01:32:18.420 you know?
01:32:19.120 I mean, look at COVID.
01:32:20.720 We literally got a global
01:32:21.700 example of this, right?
01:32:23.640 Like just got people to engage
01:32:25.860 in all kinds of completely fake
01:32:27.180 rituals for no other reason
01:32:29.200 than the TV told them to.
01:32:30.580 Uh, and you know, they were
01:32:32.000 sufficiently isolated from
01:32:33.600 friends and family and
01:32:34.640 community long enough to where
01:32:36.180 they would literally just
01:32:37.240 believe anything that the TV
01:32:39.120 told them, no matter how
01:32:40.540 ridiculous, uh, about, you
01:32:42.320 know, a disease that obviously
01:32:43.500 was not doing what they were
01:32:44.860 told it was doing.
01:32:46.140 Uh, philosophical thirstworm
01:32:47.700 said, uh, they even use the
01:32:49.340 insane rules on non-whites, 0.96
01:32:51.460 native, uh, Ghanese and nagged 0.95
01:32:54.520 for not, uh, liking the
01:32:55.700 individual black menial class
01:32:57.380 imported by their birth.
01:32:58.740 The Dominicans are nagged for 1.00
01:33:00.240 not liking the French bioweapon 1.00
01:33:01.800 left on their island.
01:33:04.940 Um, yeah, I, again, I'm not
01:33:07.100 super familiar with some of
01:33:08.500 those references, but it looks
01:33:09.840 like you're talking about
01:33:10.500 Hispaniola there at the end.
01:33:12.320 Uh, thank you for your super
01:33:14.420 chat.
01:33:14.880 Uh, Ataraxia says anyone 0.94
01:33:17.060 interested in this subject should
01:33:18.400 read Murray Rothbard's nation,
01:33:21.020 nations by consent, not read that
01:33:24.720 one by, uh, Rothbard though.
01:33:26.540 Uh, nations by consent doesn't
01:33:28.160 sound promising, but, uh,
01:33:31.100 libertarians already hate me.
01:33:32.280 So I can say that.
01:33:33.500 Um, James says what realistically
01:33:35.640 would need to happen for real
01:33:37.840 American ethnogenesis to happen, 0.87
01:33:39.460 or will we see a breakup and
01:33:41.780 several, uh, and several
01:33:43.380 ethnogenesis?
01:33:44.600 Uh, I, I would say the latter is
01:33:47.000 probably more likely.
01:33:48.380 I, I, I'm not sure how you get
01:33:50.100 an ethnogenesis over 350 million
01:33:52.060 people that share very little at
01:33:54.380 this point.
01:33:54.820 I think you really have to scale
01:33:56.140 things down for that to happen,
01:33:57.380 but any thoughts from you,
01:33:58.860 Daryl?
01:34:00.480 Um, you know, I think that, uh,
01:34:03.720 and I know I'm, I'm kind of in
01:34:05.760 the minority on this on the right,
01:34:07.420 I think, but, um, you know, I
01:34:11.280 know people look at the United
01:34:12.640 States as a sort of outpost of
01:34:15.280 Western civilization in the new 0.54
01:34:16.800 world.
01:34:17.160 Um, and certainly that's what
01:34:19.120 it's been for a lot of our
01:34:20.640 history.
01:34:21.320 Um, I sort of wonder though, if
01:34:23.620 it was destined to like really
01:34:25.040 ever be that over the long term,
01:34:26.920 because I mean, look like
01:34:28.980 Europeans got here first and we
01:34:31.020 started colonizing the place
01:34:32.180 first, but when you have this
01:34:33.220 much open land and so many, it
01:34:36.340 was inevitably going to attract
01:34:37.920 people from all over the world.
01:34:39.140 I mean, that was going to happen
01:34:40.040 unless you're going to put the
01:34:41.200 Navy on the coast and sink every
01:34:42.840 ship that wants to come in.
01:34:43.960 I mean, that's just something that
01:34:44.880 was, was going to happen.
01:34:46.580 And it has already happened now,
01:34:48.140 whether we decide to stop the
01:34:50.260 flow or not.
01:34:50.960 So we have to, we have to live in
01:34:52.880 that world.
01:34:54.160 And, um, you know, I kind of
01:34:56.400 wonder if instead of being, and
01:34:57.960 maybe this is like the only chance
01:34:59.680 we have of like a real nationwide
01:35:02.320 ethnogenesis is, um, you know, is,
01:35:05.560 is maybe we're not an outpost of
01:35:08.120 Western civilization.
01:35:09.120 You know, maybe, maybe, uh, we
01:35:11.200 were a seed planted here by the
01:35:13.240 West, uh, but that we're a
01:35:15.020 civilization in formation now, you
01:35:17.220 know, uh, a civilization of our
01:35:18.960 own.
01:35:19.400 And people are going to talk
01:35:20.540 about, you know, this is like the
01:35:22.640 argument that's gone on in Russia
01:35:24.040 for a few hundred years now is
01:35:25.700 like, is Russia a European 0.72
01:35:26.700 country or is Russia a
01:35:27.980 civilization?
01:35:29.060 And I think now, you know, um,
01:35:30.760 the civilization argument is
01:35:32.040 probably a lot more, a lot more
01:35:34.020 popular than it was a few years
01:35:35.300 ago.
01:35:35.800 But I think that's going to be the
01:35:37.000 discussion to have in America too.
01:35:38.460 You know, it's like, that doesn't
01:35:39.680 mean we should like not be friends
01:35:42.040 with Europe.
01:35:42.480 We share a lot in common with them
01:35:43.980 and the rest of the Western
01:35:45.180 countries and everything, but, you
01:35:47.340 know, uh, maybe we're our own
01:35:49.300 civilization and that our nat, our
01:35:51.040 natural role is leadership of the
01:35:53.000 Western hemisphere, you know, and
01:35:54.660 maybe that's where our foreign
01:35:56.920 policy should be primarily focused
01:35:58.680 on.
01:35:59.000 And maybe we shouldn't be taking the
01:36:00.440 side of Britain over Argentina
01:36:02.280 ever under any circumstances, you
01:36:04.560 know, because these are our
01:36:05.960 hemispheric neighbors, you know, and
01:36:07.340 maybe we should, uh, start thinking,
01:36:09.780 uh, in, in those terms.
01:36:12.360 Um, beyond that, yeah, it's really
01:36:14.360 hard to imagine how, I mean,
01:36:15.920 cause you've never really had like,
01:36:17.760 uh, you know, an ethnogenesis that
01:36:20.220 took place at a, the kind of scale
01:36:22.100 we're talking about 350 million
01:36:23.540 people on a country, the size of a
01:36:25.080 continent, you know what I mean?
01:36:26.100 Like that would be totally
01:36:28.060 unprecedented.
01:36:28.640 Now, on the other hand, you know,
01:36:31.060 if you look at the things that like
01:36:32.360 nation states did to like create
01:36:34.480 that ethnogenesis in, in places where
01:36:36.940 it has happened, you know, they
01:36:39.100 had to, they built highways, they
01:36:40.640 put up telegraph lines, they, you
01:36:42.820 know, had radio and TV, just all of
01:36:45.260 these things to tie the country
01:36:46.500 together and make it smaller and
01:36:48.060 bring people closer together, um, in
01:36:50.540 terms of communication and travel and
01:36:52.760 so forth, um, so that it homogenized
01:36:55.620 the national culture somewhat brought
01:36:57.520 everybody, you know, into that.
01:36:59.640 And, you know, today with the
01:37:01.280 communication technology and
01:37:02.540 everything we have, maybe it's
01:37:04.000 possible where it wouldn't have been
01:37:06.280 possible before.
01:37:07.740 Um, but I mean, it's a, uh, you
01:37:13.120 know, the, the, the, the person who
01:37:15.040 asked the question was right to frame
01:37:16.400 it the way they did, because we
01:37:17.600 either figure that out or eventually
01:37:19.480 this country will balkanize, you
01:37:21.480 know, that's just, those are the two
01:37:22.880 directions that this can go.
01:37:24.980 Yeah.
01:37:25.100 I think that they attempt to do that
01:37:27.120 was in the 1950s, like the post
01:37:28.740 world war two consensus was largely an
01:37:31.520 attempt to do this because we did have
01:37:33.400 radio and television and highway
01:37:35.980 systems.
01:37:36.680 And, you know, if it was going to
01:37:38.920 happen, it, that's when it was going
01:37:40.780 to happen.
01:37:41.140 And it kind of happened.
01:37:42.660 Uh, and then heart seller happened.
01:37:44.260 Uh, and so it didn't happen.
01:37:46.080 Uh, and so I, I think we, I think we
01:37:48.020 kind of threw a spanner into the 1.00
01:37:50.240 works of our own, um, technological
01:37:52.940 ethnogenesis moment.
01:37:54.300 Uh, yeah, we had, we had like a, um,
01:37:57.500 you know, we had just come off like
01:37:58.800 winning the world war and emerging as
01:38:01.180 sort of the most, the obvious, most
01:38:03.140 powerful country on earth, which is
01:38:04.600 always going to engender a sense of
01:38:05.840 nationalism in people.
01:38:06.920 Um, but also like, you know, that was
01:38:09.760 the period when, especially like
01:38:11.860 accelerating from world war two on
01:38:13.760 when all of the different European
01:38:16.180 ethnics who inhabited most of the big
01:38:18.040 cities in the country, um, you know,
01:38:19.700 the Irish and the Jews and the Italians
01:38:21.480 and everybody else who kind of had their
01:38:23.400 own quarters and neighborhoods and
01:38:24.920 different cities and stuff.
01:38:25.920 Um, they sort of all at once across the
01:38:29.340 country were, uh, confronted with this
01:38:31.860 challenge that was being brought in by
01:38:33.620 the mass migration of African Americans
01:38:35.360 out of the South, you know, and it, you,
01:38:37.500 you see this back in the fifties and
01:38:39.180 sixties, you know, a lot of these like, um,
01:38:42.760 you know, white citizens councils or
01:38:44.560 whatever else, like sounds like this super
01:38:47.380 exclusivist, like, you know, stay out of 1.00
01:38:49.740 my backyard kind of thing, but in, in a
01:38:53.040 certain way, it was, it was, uh, an, uh,
01:38:56.860 it represented a kind of openness that
01:38:58.500 hadn't existed before because, you know,
01:39:00.100 you have the white citizens council where
01:39:01.820 the Jewish guy, the Italian guy, the
01:39:03.720 Irish guy, and the Anglo guy are all 1.00
01:39:05.860 here friends identifying with each other
01:39:07.540 because they have this common challenge
01:39:09.240 that they have to respond to.
01:39:10.600 And so all those people obviously moved
01:39:12.740 out of the cities into the suburbs.
01:39:14.140 So now you're literally like just an
01:39:16.200 Anglo with an Italian neighbor and an
01:39:18.700 Irish neighbor and their kids aren't 0.99
01:39:21.800 really Italian or Irish or Anglo at all.
01:39:23.960 They're just, and so you started to get
01:39:25.880 that going, you know, as you said, from
01:39:28.340 about 45 to maybe like, you can say
01:39:30.700 heart seller, but I would say probably
01:39:32.240 like, I don't know, like the, like the,
01:39:34.620 the first shot fired in that war was
01:39:37.260 probably in Dallas in 1963.
01:39:39.320 You know, like, I think people really
01:39:41.180 lost a lot of faith in the system and
01:39:43.760 the project when Kennedy was shot and, you
01:39:46.180 know, heart seller, it was, it was, you
01:39:49.860 know, we didn't really start to get
01:39:50.860 meaningful immigration and started to
01:39:52.520 transform the demographics of the
01:39:54.000 country for a decade, probably two
01:39:55.500 decades after that.
01:39:56.540 So, um, where it was felt kind of as a
01:39:59.100 national issue.
01:40:00.620 And, um, so I don't know if it was like
01:40:02.540 necessarily the passing of the law that
01:40:04.460 did it as much as, you know, we, the
01:40:08.260 fly in the ointment of that national
01:40:10.020 identity project that we were engaged in
01:40:11.920 obviously was the fact that there were,
01:40:14.080 there was about 10% of the population
01:40:15.740 that was kind of not included in that,
01:40:17.140 at least not fully black people.
01:40:18.660 And, um, you know, in the 1960s, white
01:40:23.420 America kind of decided on Moss, including
01:40:26.600 the people who were Italian and whatever
01:40:29.120 else who weren't here, you know, during,
01:40:30.800 um, the antebellum period, weren't here for
01:40:33.480 the civil war.
01:40:34.420 Um, but everybody kind of came to a
01:40:36.900 conclusion, not every single person, but
01:40:38.740 like, you know, a large majority, I think
01:40:41.360 of, of white Americans came to the
01:40:43.500 conclusion that we gotta, we gotta help
01:40:45.740 these people up a little bit.
01:40:46.800 Like, you know, this is, um, a
01:40:48.200 responsibility and obligation we have to
01:40:50.100 our former slave population that we're
01:40:52.820 gonna, we're gonna take certain measures,
01:40:54.300 do certain things to try to, to try to
01:40:56.680 make things right.
01:40:57.840 You know, if not make them equal, at
01:40:59.160 least try to make them right and have a
01:41:00.420 gesture.
01:41:00.880 But then all of the things that we did
01:41:03.580 sort of as these emergency measures to
01:41:05.780 try to, to try to help this former
01:41:07.640 slave population got transferred over to
01:41:10.680 like every descendant of Cortez who
01:41:12.500 decides to come across the Southern
01:41:13.960 border and like, you know, they can kind
01:41:16.000 of free ride off of the, uh, off of the,
01:41:19.420 you know, the, the measures that we've
01:41:20.740 taken to, um, you know, to try to lift up
01:41:23.460 the black population and got to the point 0.88
01:41:25.780 where, you know, once you count just the
01:41:29.180 whole, uh, constituency of the civil rights
01:41:32.280 regime is like women, uh, all, all immigrants 1.00
01:41:38.320 and children of immigrants, everybody who's
01:41:40.460 not white, everybody who's not Christian.
01:41:43.460 Um, and pretty soon it's like 70% of the
01:41:46.340 country has this set of legal, legal
01:41:49.160 privileges that are, are enshrined.
01:41:51.900 Um, and 30% of the country that doesn't, and
01:41:54.080 that was never sustainable.
01:41:55.220 You can, especially when that 30% is in a 0.99
01:41:57.840 lot of ways, like the core of your, of, of
01:42:00.640 what any, you know, ethnogenesis project in
01:42:03.120 this country is going to be about.
01:42:04.400 And so, you, you know, we, we just
01:42:06.320 created a, we created a system that really
01:42:09.080 alienated like the core of our population.
01:42:12.260 And, um, but yeah, I mean, 45 to 1960, people
01:42:16.760 would have been justified in being kind of
01:42:18.220 optimistic, you know?
01:42:19.500 I mean, you had like, uh, like the city of
01:42:21.840 Vicksburg never from the time it got
01:42:24.600 conquered during the civil war, uh, never
01:42:28.080 celebrated the 4th of July again until July
01:42:31.680 4th, 1944 after the D-Day invasion, you
01:42:34.300 know, and like that, that war and just, uh,
01:42:36.980 the, the social things that were going on
01:42:38.860 across the country all at the same time, um,
01:42:41.340 really did unite at least white Americans in
01:42:43.960 a profound way that, you know, hadn't been
01:42:46.040 accomplished, uh, before that.
01:42:47.460 And of course it had been 20 years since we
01:42:49.640 had really shut down the immigration system
01:42:51.420 for the most part, you know, in 1924.
01:42:53.340 So, um, so yeah.
01:42:56.900 Anyway.
01:42:58.000 Yeah.
01:42:58.140 I meant to get into the, uh, the way in
01:42:59.840 which the dissolving of ethnic identities
01:43:01.620 brought in racial identities in a way that
01:43:04.240 now has created, you know, like you said,
01:43:06.760 it's, uh, it was an ethnogenesis of a type
01:43:09.740 at the moment, but now has become a, uh, an
01:43:12.160 even larger barrier to kind of, uh,
01:43:14.900 understanding American identity.
01:43:16.460 But, uh, that will have to be for our next
01:43:18.660 conversation.
01:43:19.240 I suppose things were already deep in this.
01:43:21.360 Uh, let's see life of Brian here says the
01:43:23.460 power dialectic, uh, allegiance broad enough
01:43:26.060 to amass a huge number yet deep enough that
01:43:28.800 the people in enlist and fight lives, love the
01:43:31.840 world, but proudly say that the world never, uh,
01:43:35.200 that they, uh, never serve while Afghans. 1.00
01:43:38.800 Okay.
01:43:39.380 Uh, yeah, no, again, uh, I think the, that's
01:43:41.920 always the trick is like the scale is obviously
01:43:46.280 huge and the larger, the more people, the more
01:43:48.820 material you can bring in under your state, the
01:43:51.980 more powerful it becomes.
01:43:53.500 Uh, but the question is, as you point out there in
01:43:55.800 the super chat, like when does that overstep, right?
01:43:58.420 Like when does that transcend, uh, the point where
01:44:00.680 it's advantageous and instead becomes a liability, you
01:44:03.820 have more and more people under your control, but
01:44:05.920 fewer and fewer of them are willing to fight and
01:44:07.880 die for the existential, uh, you know, kind of a
01:44:11.640 continuation of, uh, that way of life.
01:44:14.260 Uh, and so there, there is a, a law of diminishing
01:44:16.920 returns that, that ultimately hits us here.
01:44:19.140 Uh, and I think that is something that many different, uh,
01:44:22.280 civilizations are currently experiencing simultaneously.
01:44:25.740 Yeah.
01:44:26.100 And it makes sense too.
01:44:27.080 I mean, just, it relates to what I said earlier about
01:44:29.180 building communities, as opposed to like commenting
01:44:31.360 on what we should do from a national perspective or
01:44:35.140 something, you know, in a lot of ways, as counterintuitive
01:44:37.580 as it might sound, it's easier to love the foreigner
01:44:40.360 than it is to love your neighbor because the foreigner
01:44:43.120 can be idealized and you can love them all you want.
01:44:45.920 You don't actually have to do anything for them.
01:44:48.080 Whereas your neighbor, you may or may not love, you
01:44:50.380 know, or really like, uh, but they're your neighbor.
01:44:53.000 And, you know, there's obligations that come with
01:44:56.840 that love.
01:44:57.340 And so, you know, it's endemic to like the liberal sort
01:45:01.220 of side of American politics, for sure that, you
01:45:03.600 know, they've chosen the easy route of loving the far
01:45:07.180 away that requires nothing of them and, uh, giving
01:45:10.660 themselves a thousand reasons not to care about the
01:45:12.940 people, you know, who are close to them who might
01:45:14.960 actually impose obligations if, if, if they did care.
01:45:18.420 So the old telescopic philanthropy, you know, says, uh, the
01:45:23.000 Greek term for people purposely voting to reduce their
01:45:26.140 own representation is, uh, demo, demoistless.
01:45:30.260 I don't, not sure exactly how that would get pronounced.
01:45:32.720 Uh, but thank you for that.
01:45:35.100 Wait, how did you pronounce his name?
01:45:37.220 Uh, Templar.
01:45:38.780 All right.
01:45:40.320 I'm doing, I'm doing my best here, man.
01:45:42.720 I'm sure.
01:45:44.120 Yeah.
01:45:44.740 No, I think you're probably right.
01:45:46.020 I have no idea in my experience.
01:45:47.860 You just lower your shoulder and keep going.
01:45:49.500 I taught high school, you know, like I had to announce them, you
01:45:52.400 know, in, uh, let's say very diverse classrooms.
01:45:55.120 I had to do a lot of guessing, you know, I'm pretty used to it.
01:45:57.820 Yeah.
01:45:58.080 I'm doing this world war two series.
01:45:59.880 I'm working as hard as possible to like, uh, to steer the
01:46:04.560 story in ways that protects me from having to pronounce French
01:46:07.780 names as much as possible.
01:46:09.220 It's when you, when you change your entire, uh, way of gathering and
01:46:13.800 writing narrative simply so you can avoid embarrassing yourself with
01:46:16.820 pronunciations.
01:46:18.000 Uh, Thuggo says, Peterson is saying the accomplishments of your
01:46:21.020 ancestors are not important.
01:46:22.500 So the advantages they give, uh, they gave you can be stolen.
01:46:27.840 Uh, that's, I mean, I think, uh, you know, again, I, I wouldn't want to
01:46:31.300 speak on behalf of Peterson, but I think, yeah, he would, uh, ultimately
01:46:35.160 think that their accomplishments are not something that you owned.
01:46:38.240 And so, yes, that, that is of course, uh, the implication there of
01:46:42.180 what the line of reasoning he's following, even if he wouldn't say
01:46:45.360 that explicitly, uh, tiny Rick says, I don't know exactly what
01:46:49.160 American identity is or will become, but your average person is
01:46:52.580 absolutely starving for it.
01:46:54.080 Great show.
01:46:54.760 And yes, our guests.
01:46:56.940 Yeah.
01:46:57.100 And again, I think this is why Trump became so popular because he
01:47:00.680 really was for better or worse, uh, the last gasp of American
01:47:04.620 identity.
01:47:05.180 I think that's why he, uh, gained the amount of support that he
01:47:09.880 did.
01:47:10.280 Again, I don't think Trump could probably articulate this in any
01:47:13.300 meaningful sense.
01:47:14.180 Uh, but most people who followed him kind of recognize that whatever
01:47:18.440 it is, I need to protect, uh, this is kind of the last train out, uh,
01:47:23.040 before, before, uh, we completely lose that.
01:47:25.320 And so, um, even if you, you know, you, you probably should never be
01:47:29.020 able to completely define these things.
01:47:31.160 That's what makes them, uh, what they are, right?
01:47:34.140 It's, it's your Britishness or your America's American-ness, uh, was
01:47:39.040 something that, uh, we, you would immediately recognize in others as
01:47:41.960 you were, you know, speaking about previously, Daryl.
01:47:44.140 So I think, uh, you, you never actually want to be able to completely
01:47:47.700 pin it down though.
01:47:48.820 When you know it or when you see it, you would know it.
01:47:51.300 Um, and then again here, Templar says, uh, not to smear him too much, but
01:47:57.940 Crenshaw's, uh, glass eye is an Avenger's shield.
01:48:00.620 And I think that says a lot about millennials.
01:48:04.220 Uh, I don't know if that's a troll or if there's any truth to that, but, uh,
01:48:08.140 you know, I tried to avoid, like, he's actually tweeted at me, uh, insulting
01:48:13.240 ways a few times, like personally.
01:48:15.120 And I, um, I try to just avoid it because he and Jocko, they're not best
01:48:20.380 friends or anything, but they know each other and they have common friends
01:48:22.880 and stuff.
01:48:23.380 And so I just, I try to stay away from, uh, from, from saying bad things about
01:48:28.000 Crenshaw, but you know, not, uh, hopefully, hopefully he won't be in the
01:48:33.200 public eye much longer and I won't have to worry about it.
01:48:36.540 I mean, his continued, uh, election is a black, uh, eye on, uh, Texas.
01:48:41.680 And I think it's best if they, uh, if they move on.
01:48:44.600 Uh, that said, guys, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up.
01:48:47.240 It's been a marathon.
01:48:48.320 Uh, it's always great to talk to Daryl.
01:48:50.480 Thank you so much for coming on, man.
01:48:52.240 If anybody is not listening to, of course, the martyr made podcast, you need to
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01:49:25.620 Thank you everybody for watching.
01:49:27.420 And as always, I will talk to you next time.