The Auron MacIntyre Show - The Failed Experiment of the Modern State ｜ Guest： Darryl Cooper ｜ 3⧸5⧸25

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.640 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.360 I've got a great stream with a great guest

00:00:35.040 that I think you're really going to enjoy.

00:00:38.200 Every time I get to talk to Daryl Cooper,

00:00:40.320 we dive into an issue that I think is pretty fascinating.

00:00:43.820 One of the ones that we focused on quite a bit

00:00:46.040 is social organization.

00:00:48.180 What makes a nation?

00:00:49.340 What makes a state?

00:00:50.920 How do states centralize power? 0.72

00:00:52.940 What defines their identity?

00:00:54.980 We were talking a little bit about this on Twitter

00:00:57.640 and we decided it would be better

00:00:59.400 to be part of a longer discussion.

00:01:02.280 So Daryl, thank you so much for joining me, man.

00:01:04.460 Of course.

00:01:04.980 It's always fun.

00:01:06.400 Before we get into this,

00:01:07.780 we haven't talked in a while.

00:01:09.440 A few things have happened

00:01:10.780 since the last time you were on the show.

00:01:14.180 Small smattering of controversy here or there.

00:01:17.400 I know you've probably exhausted this to death,

00:01:22.040 but what was it like kind of having the White House

00:01:26.540 officially denounce you,

00:01:29.400 have this entire, you know,

00:01:31.060 half the conservative commentary turn on you?

00:01:34.220 You know, it seems like a big blow up

00:01:37.580 over kind of just a simple discussion

00:01:40.600 over a historical event.

00:01:42.580 You want to touch on that at all?

00:01:44.580 Yeah, I mean, looking back on it now,

00:01:47.760 I mean, at the time it's kind of surreal, right?

00:01:49.620 And it feels kind of like it's happening to somebody else

00:01:51.640 because, I mean, how do you prepare yourself for that?

00:01:53.920 Unless you're already famous or something,

00:01:57.080 maybe you're kind of already in that world,

00:01:58.400 but to go from just being kind of a normal person

00:02:01.420 who doesn't, you know, get out much

00:02:02.980 to being denounced by the White House

00:02:04.740 and major newspapers all around the Western world

00:02:07.720 was kind of surreal.

00:02:09.360 But, you know, looking back on it now,

00:02:11.500 the experience was really like an overwhelmingly positive one,

00:02:14.820 mainly because, you know,

00:02:17.540 you don't want to do this to your friends

00:02:19.780 if you can help it.

00:02:20.780 But, you know, every once in a while,

00:02:22.480 you get a chance to put everybody you know

00:02:24.160 to a loyalty test, whether they like it or not.

00:02:26.980 And to have everybody that you care about,

00:02:29.060 everybody really honestly that I've ever

00:02:31.180 spoken to face to face or even DMed with,

00:02:34.920 had any kind of like direct personal interaction

00:02:36.960 with every single one of those people

00:02:38.840 was rock solid and stood by me.

00:02:42.400 You know, I guess I was buoyed by the fact

00:02:46.440 that I knew from the very beginning

00:02:50.620 of the controversy that things were already changing

00:02:57.720 in a way that, you know, was sapping away

00:03:01.980 the power of people who were trying to come after me.

00:03:04.220 Like, I knew that.

00:03:05.860 I knew I was on like the leading edge of this change.

00:03:09.320 And so they really didn't scare me.

00:03:11.100 I mean, I know 10 years ago, even 15 years ago,

00:03:15.600 they would have destroyed me.

00:03:17.860 You know, I wouldn't have been able

00:03:18.920 to publish a podcast anywhere.

00:03:20.680 I wouldn't be able to do anything.

00:03:21.900 But I had to go crawling back to my, you know,

00:03:24.960 to my Department of Defense job

00:03:26.640 and hoping that they didn't Google me

00:03:28.280 before they decided whether to rehire me, you know.

00:03:30.480 So, but those people don't have

00:03:32.480 that kind of power anymore.

00:03:33.300 And I think that's a big part

00:03:34.320 of what their temper tantrum was all about, you know.

00:03:37.840 Yeah, it is very strange.

00:03:40.740 Again, you are in this scenario where,

00:03:44.820 again, people can look at your assessment of history,

00:03:48.440 but it feels like you were saying something that,

00:03:51.240 you know, Pat Buchanan and plenty of other people have.

00:03:54.620 Yeah, I think Greg Connolly was talking about,

00:03:56.540 like, this is a perfectly normal revisionist

00:03:59.580 kind of history approach,

00:04:00.780 even from many English historians.

00:04:03.180 But people really blew this out.

00:04:05.280 And I think the reason that you probably had

00:04:07.280 such a resounding kind of affirmation

00:04:10.800 by the people who know you is,

00:04:12.240 I mean, you know, you're great,

00:04:14.320 but you're a bleeding heart, man.

00:04:15.460 Like, you know, anyone who's listened to your work,

00:04:18.760 anyone who's heard you go on at length,

00:04:20.840 you're somebody who cares deeply about the suffering

00:04:22.680 of many different peoples on different sides.

00:04:26.420 Anybody who's paid attention to your content

00:04:28.020 absolutely knows that.

00:04:29.580 And so the assertions being made were just lazy.

00:04:32.880 It felt like a bunch of people, they saw a clip,

00:04:34.940 they know what they're supposed to think

00:04:36.420 when someone shows them a clip like that.

00:04:39.220 And so they just completely respond out of context.

00:04:42.440 But anyone who had the slightest amount of context

00:04:45.100 knows that the people who are making these accusations,

00:04:47.560 it just, it didn't hold up with anything,

00:04:49.460 any of your work, any of your character.

00:04:50.740 So it was, I think it was a pretty odd disconnect

00:04:53.560 for people who were familiar with your work,

00:04:55.160 people who knew you,

00:04:56.020 as opposed to what was being pushed around,

00:04:58.440 especially, again, I think pretty shamefully

00:05:00.700 by a lot of people on the conservative end of things

00:05:03.180 who should know better.

00:05:04.760 Like, this is the side that's been screaming,

00:05:07.780 Trump's a Nazi, Trump's a Hitler.

00:05:09.220 You know, Biden has been calling Trump supporters fascists,

00:05:13.080 so has AOC and all of these other people.

00:05:15.880 This is rhetoric that's deeply baked

00:05:17.500 in the Democratic Party and the left.

00:05:19.220 So you think you'd at least get some kind of hesitation

00:05:22.380 before just immediately throwing it back out

00:05:24.820 as someone who's on the right at this point.

00:05:27.920 Yeah, that's true.

00:05:29.100 But honestly, the people who did that didn't surprise me.

00:05:32.680 You know, they're kind of the people

00:05:33.680 that I would have predicted

00:05:34.520 even before something like that happened.

00:05:36.500 And all the people that, you know,

00:05:38.700 that I would hope would stand for me,

00:05:42.880 like, they didn't just write me private messages

00:05:44.840 saying, like, we got your back or whatever.

00:05:47.120 Like, they were out in public defending me, you know.

00:05:50.280 And there were people, I mean,

00:05:51.800 there were people out there, I won't name any names

00:05:53.360 because I don't want to cause them any more trouble,

00:05:55.040 but there were people, conservative authors,

00:05:58.520 writers that I know who were getting emails

00:06:01.760 from, you know, John Podhoritz,

00:06:04.080 like, high-level, like, donors

00:06:06.240 to the Claremont Institute and everything,

00:06:10.320 telling them that, you know, you've talked to this guy

00:06:12.580 or talked about this guy positively in the past.

00:06:14.560 You need to go out there and denounce him

00:06:16.400 or else you're not writing for this

00:06:17.700 or any other magazine.

00:06:18.900 And they told them to piss off, like, to a man.

00:06:21.780 And I really appreciate that from them,

00:06:24.460 but it's also, like I said,

00:06:26.220 a sign of the changing times, you know,

00:06:28.160 the fact that they knew they could do that.

00:06:31.540 And I still appreciate it, though.

00:06:35.380 Now, interestingly, like, right after this,

00:06:38.180 in a very Daryl way,

00:06:39.900 you decided to immediately launch a series

00:06:43.100 about World War II,

00:06:44.820 and it looks like it's coming, you know,

00:06:46.760 it's going to be centered a lot

00:06:48.020 on the German experience.

00:06:49.660 In fact, you put a video together

00:06:51.480 that, you know, looked like a History Channel

00:06:53.700 trailer to me,

00:06:55.660 but all of a sudden there is this explosion,

00:06:57.700 I think, only because people are already

00:06:59.580 kind of building on this narrative.

00:07:01.580 But a lot of people are like,

00:07:02.980 okay, well, this doesn't show the atrocities

00:07:05.100 of the Nazis, or it doesn't, you know,

00:07:06.900 it just shows them kind of being cool in uniforms

00:07:09.520 and doing military stuff.

00:07:11.900 What's your thought process

00:07:13.320 going right up the kind of the pipe with this again?

00:07:16.480 I know that one of your big themes

00:07:18.620 is trying to get people to understand

00:07:20.680 where people are coming from.

00:07:23.240 Is that ultimately the reason

00:07:25.500 that you decided to follow this?

00:07:26.860 Or is it just kind of the middle finger

00:07:28.680 that had to come anyway?

00:07:29.920 Or you were already building this series?

00:07:31.740 Where did this come from?

00:07:33.000 Yeah, no, I've been doing the background reading

00:07:34.620 for this exact series for some time.

00:07:36.940 And the reason I accelerated it

00:07:39.220 was just because, you know,

00:07:40.880 because of that Tucker interview.

00:07:43.180 I mean, he kind of, you know,

00:07:45.440 yeah, he just narrowed my options.

00:07:47.420 I had to, you know, bear down and focus on it.

00:07:50.620 So, but I've been planning it for a long time,

00:07:52.120 doing a lot of the background reading.

00:07:53.680 And yeah, I mean, you know,

00:07:55.160 this is a, it's a topic that,

00:07:57.820 you know, you can't do a podcast series.

00:08:00.480 Well, let's put it this way.

00:08:01.560 Like, are you familiar with that YouTube channel,

00:08:04.620 The Great War?

00:08:05.760 Yeah.

00:08:06.320 They talk, yeah.

00:08:07.300 So they've got like hundreds of episodes

00:08:08.780 all about World War I.

00:08:10.020 I mean, it's a great channel.

00:08:11.560 But if you wanted to do that with World War II,

00:08:13.500 like that's what you would have to do

00:08:15.140 if you wanted to cover the whole war, right?

00:08:16.820 So anytime that you're covering a topic

00:08:19.240 on which, you know, so much is written.

00:08:22.340 I mean, sometimes when you're dealing

00:08:24.360 with ancient history,

00:08:25.080 you have to figure out how to extrapolate

00:08:26.960 from just a few texts

00:08:28.440 to tell like a broad story.

00:08:31.160 Even in the case of the Israel-Palestine series

00:08:34.960 that I did, you know,

00:08:37.260 it only went up to 1948

00:08:38.580 and I was limited by the fact

00:08:40.100 that I only was able to use

00:08:41.620 English speaking sources.

00:08:43.360 But, you know, with those limits,

00:08:44.920 with that limitation, you know, in mind,

00:08:48.380 I think I read pretty much everything

00:08:50.220 there was about the pre-1948 conflict,

00:08:54.220 you know, between the Israelis 0.69

00:08:55.140 and the Palestinians.

00:08:55.700 I mean, and I could do that.

00:08:57.560 With World War II,

00:08:59.060 you wouldn't get through 1%

00:09:00.600 of what's been written about the war

00:09:02.160 if you spent your whole life doing it.

00:09:03.620 And so you really do have to pick and choose.

00:09:05.400 And by doing that, you know,

00:09:07.240 you could say you're introducing a bias

00:09:10.160 or a slant to it

00:09:11.120 by what you choose to talk about

00:09:13.120 or the sources that you use.

00:09:14.680 And I suppose that's true.

00:09:17.560 But I think, you know, that's okay.

00:09:19.340 Like this isn't supposed to be

00:09:20.480 an objective, broad view

00:09:22.020 of the entire war.

00:09:23.040 I think that everybody's seen

00:09:25.420 the History Channel documentaries.

00:09:27.200 You know, you go on Netflix

00:09:28.080 and there's always four or five documentaries

00:09:30.700 that are, they're all titled something like

00:09:32.960 Hitler, Rise of Evil, Nazis, 0.58

00:09:36.640 you know, doom in Europe,

00:09:37.900 something like that.

00:09:38.780 You know, just the mythological

00:09:40.620 kind of cartoonish stuff,

00:09:42.160 which is, you know,

00:09:44.140 the kind of thing you expect,

00:09:45.800 it's the kind of propaganda

00:09:46.620 you expect to see during a war.

00:09:48.700 But it's, you know,

00:09:50.440 in this particular war,

00:09:51.380 it's persisted for 80 more years.

00:09:53.160 And I think that it's sort of,

00:09:55.140 it's made it so that,

00:09:56.820 you know, people in Western countries

00:09:59.580 or, you know, in the allied countries

00:10:02.420 or Western countries,

00:10:03.400 just, you know,

00:10:05.820 it's the one historical topic

00:10:10.480 that, you know,

00:10:13.100 they're really forbidden

00:10:15.100 and prevented,

00:10:15.860 not just by social penalties

00:10:17.280 or anything like that,

00:10:18.220 but by deeply embedded emotional triggers,

00:10:20.640 you know,

00:10:20.880 that were put in there,

00:10:21.800 put into all of us as small children.

00:10:24.900 But if you start trying to understand

00:10:26.600 the other side's perspective

00:10:27.780 or look at it from a different point of view

00:10:30.680 to treat it like a historical event

00:10:34.140 instead of a mythological event,

00:10:36.400 you know,

00:10:36.960 then there are things like deep in people's gut

00:10:38.860 that tells them like,

00:10:40.020 what you're doing is wrong.

00:10:41.400 Like, you shouldn't be asking these questions.

00:10:43.000 You shouldn't be doing this.

00:10:43.900 And those things were put into us

00:10:45.000 at a very, very early age.

00:10:46.360 And I think when you see things like that,

00:10:49.020 you know, sometimes they're,

00:10:50.720 look, I'm not against social myths,

00:10:54.780 national myths, you know,

00:10:55.800 you need those kinds of things

00:10:57.000 to hold your people together.

00:10:58.260 You need those emotional triggers

00:10:59.720 built into people

00:11:00.660 so that when certain things happen,

00:11:02.880 they respond as a collective,

00:11:04.400 you know,

00:11:04.620 those things are important.

00:11:06.340 But you have to ask

00:11:07.440 what purpose those triggers

00:11:08.900 are being put to.

00:11:10.040 And, you know,

00:11:10.580 maybe through part of the 20th century,

00:11:12.180 you could have made the case

00:11:14.720 that there were some positive things

00:11:16.780 that, you know,

00:11:17.440 were being driven by that myth.

00:11:19.020 You know,

00:11:19.220 it did make people in the West,

00:11:22.500 you know,

00:11:22.680 it didn't stop us from invading countries,

00:11:24.380 but it did sort of

00:11:26.640 delegitimize just aggressive,

00:11:30.640 straightforward imperialism

00:11:32.280 and conquest,

00:11:33.220 territorial conquest

00:11:34.560 and domination of peoples.

00:11:35.980 It did do that.

00:11:36.700 I think it probably made people

00:11:38.920 more tolerant

00:11:40.880 in certain ways

00:11:41.940 of foreigners 0.92

00:11:43.460 and of foreigners in their midst,

00:11:44.960 which is, you know,

00:11:45.960 again,

00:11:47.220 taken to a certain point,

00:11:48.380 which is fine.

00:11:50.740 But now today,

00:11:51.680 I think, you know,

00:11:52.600 you look at it

00:11:53.760 and you say,

00:11:54.160 what is the World War II myth

00:11:55.680 really used for?

00:11:56.720 And it's used for one thing

00:11:57.880 and it's to get us

00:11:58.560 into the next war.

00:12:00.480 That is,

00:12:01.880 you know,

00:12:02.440 it's to get us

00:12:05.120 into the next war

00:12:05.800 and it's to justify

00:12:06.680 the sort of U.S.-led

00:12:08.020 rules-based order

00:12:09.320 that we all

00:12:10.560 labor under today.

00:12:12.420 And to me,

00:12:13.200 those are not

00:12:13.840 noble purposes.

00:12:15.740 And so I think

00:12:16.620 it's time to step back

00:12:17.640 and just,

00:12:18.560 you know,

00:12:18.920 look at the event

00:12:20.340 like a historical event

00:12:21.940 and understand

00:12:22.540 that the Germans,

00:12:23.920 while they,

00:12:25.200 look,

00:12:25.500 people who expect me

00:12:26.820 to just do an apologia

00:12:28.400 for the Third Reich 0.88

00:12:29.600 are going to be very disappointed.

00:12:30.780 I mean,

00:12:31.260 they were fighting

00:12:33.660 that total war

00:12:35.220 on the Eastern Front,

00:12:37.100 you know,

00:12:37.280 the largest war

00:12:38.000 in human history

00:12:38.680 by itself,

00:12:39.740 just the Eastern Front

00:12:40.840 and the,

00:12:41.840 you know,

00:12:42.000 a war of annihilation

00:12:43.040 against a genocidal

00:12:44.100 Soviet Empire.

00:12:45.880 And,

00:12:46.120 you know,

00:12:47.740 the Germans,

00:12:48.440 they did not

00:12:49.620 distinguish themselves

00:12:51.160 in terms of

00:12:52.000 their conduct

00:12:52.760 on the Eastern Front,

00:12:53.940 you know,

00:12:54.160 and whatever you think

00:12:55.760 about causes

00:12:57.440 or,

00:12:58.320 you know,

00:12:58.440 if you like

00:12:58.960 Viktor Suvarov's theory

00:13:00.280 of that the Germans 0.82

00:13:01.560 had to invade

00:13:02.380 because the Soviets

00:13:03.240 were about to invade,

00:13:04.400 whatever,

00:13:05.100 any of those things,

00:13:07.100 you know,

00:13:07.420 when you have

00:13:08.020 documented,

00:13:09.840 you know,

00:13:10.180 documentation of Hitler

00:13:11.420 giving an order

00:13:12.100 that if one of our people

00:13:13.420 is killed by a partisan,

00:13:15.580 then you kill 100 people

00:13:16.920 in that zone.

00:13:18.020 And even,

00:13:18.360 you know,

00:13:18.580 David Irving writes

00:13:19.400 about that order.

00:13:20.720 So,

00:13:20.920 I mean,

00:13:21.060 that,

00:13:21.460 no matter what kind

00:13:22.560 of an apologist

00:13:23.100 you are,

00:13:23.660 like,

00:13:23.920 that's in there.

00:13:24.540 That's a barbaric order

00:13:25.640 to give.

00:13:26.540 And it's a barbaric order

00:13:27.540 for particularly,

00:13:28.680 like,

00:13:28.940 a European,

00:13:29.520 a leader

00:13:30.620 of a European Christian

00:13:31.560 country to give.

00:13:32.500 And we have to be able

00:13:33.260 to talk about that too.

00:13:34.300 So,

00:13:35.100 at the end of the day,

00:13:36.700 though,

00:13:36.860 we have to understand

00:13:37.620 these were people.

00:13:38.700 They weren't demons.

00:13:39.900 Germans didn't suddenly

00:13:40.960 turn into demons

00:13:41.940 for,

00:13:42.900 you know,

00:13:43.260 a dozen years

00:13:44.060 and then revert back

00:13:45.020 to the nice folks

00:13:45.840 that we know now

00:13:46.680 when we visit Germany.

00:13:48.620 They were people

00:13:49.480 and their motives

00:13:50.520 were,

00:13:51.840 they were,

00:13:52.820 they could,

00:13:53.520 they could be understood

00:13:54.560 by us,

00:13:55.280 you know.

00:13:56.260 And,

00:13:56.760 I think what people

00:13:58.720 are kind of afraid of

00:13:59.840 is that,

00:14:00.620 you know,

00:14:01.840 understanding

00:14:02.560 tends to lead

00:14:05.660 to empathy.

00:14:07.140 You know,

00:14:07.680 it's really hard

00:14:08.580 for it

00:14:09.040 to not do that.

00:14:10.900 And I've done that

00:14:11.920 with all of my podcasts

00:14:12.980 and all of my series

00:14:14.020 and I,

00:14:14.440 I sort of pick

00:14:15.600 subjects

00:14:17.780 that it's very hard

00:14:18.880 to do that with,

00:14:19.760 you know,

00:14:20.040 the My Lai Massacre,

00:14:21.240 to paint those guys

00:14:22.080 as human beings,

00:14:22.980 as guys who came over there

00:14:24.240 actually idealistic,

00:14:25.720 thinking they were going

00:14:26.280 to come fight

00:14:26.800 to free the Vietnamese people.

00:14:28.720 Three months

00:14:29.680 before the massacre

00:14:31.900 at My Lai,

00:14:32.660 I mean,

00:14:32.860 they were handing out

00:14:34.080 candy to Vietnamese kids

00:14:35.960 and like really,

00:14:36.740 you know,

00:14:37.000 really loving it,

00:14:37.780 like being in that role.

00:14:39.420 So how do you get

00:14:40.240 from that

00:14:41.080 to the massacre?

00:14:42.400 These are human beings.

00:14:43.280 They didn't get possessed

00:14:44.180 by demons,

00:14:45.000 you know.

00:14:45.600 I did it with Jim Jones.

00:14:46.860 I did it with

00:14:47.560 both the Israeli

00:14:49.180 and the Palestinian sides

00:14:50.480 of that story.

00:14:51.360 But this is the one story

00:14:52.700 that you cannot do that.

00:14:54.460 You're not allowed

00:14:55.000 to do that with.

00:14:55.680 You have not been.

00:14:56.440 And so I think

00:14:58.480 it's time now.

00:14:59.240 I think it's time.

00:15:00.520 You think this would be

00:15:01.440 something that would be

00:15:02.000 a little more obvious

00:15:02.600 to people?

00:15:03.040 I mean,

00:15:03.160 didn't the Canadian

00:15:03.760 Parliament recently

00:15:04.860 honor a Nazi soldier

00:15:06.900 for fighting Russia?

00:15:08.860 I mean,

00:15:09.440 you know,

00:15:09.780 the context of that

00:15:10.940 matters, right?

00:15:11.820 Like there's a reason

00:15:12.680 that guy is a Nazi soldier

00:15:13.960 given that context,

00:15:15.240 but he is aligned

00:15:16.860 with Nazi Germany

00:15:17.700 at that time

00:15:18.580 and the Canadian

00:15:19.520 Parliament's out there

00:15:20.360 being like,

00:15:20.780 but he fought the Russians

00:15:22.360 so therefore,

00:15:23.240 you know,

00:15:23.620 you know,

00:15:24.280 give this guy a medal.

00:15:25.320 I mean,

00:15:26.240 the point is,

00:15:27.300 of course,

00:15:27.760 if you look back

00:15:28.760 at, say,

00:15:29.840 Julius Caesar,

00:15:30.760 you know,

00:15:31.080 enslaved or murdered,

00:15:32.740 you know,

00:15:32.980 what,

00:15:33.460 murdered like a million Gauls, 0.99

00:15:34.500 enslaved another million,

00:15:35.340 something like that,

00:15:35.980 right?

00:15:36.600 Yeah,

00:15:37.180 obviously,

00:15:38.460 something that's very bad,

00:15:40.000 right?

00:15:40.220 But ultimately,

00:15:41.200 if you were to write

00:15:42.780 a book about Julius Caesar

00:15:44.100 or put on a show

00:15:45.520 or play by Julius Caesar,

00:15:46.900 no one would expect

00:15:47.720 that you were advocating

00:15:49.040 for slavery

00:15:49.940 and the genocide

00:15:51.060 of a million Gauls,

00:15:52.860 right?

00:15:53.020 Like,

00:15:53.220 that's obviously

00:15:53.960 not the context there.

00:15:55.480 You could just dress up

00:15:56.500 as Julius Caesar

00:15:57.160 for,

00:15:57.480 you know,

00:15:58.180 Halloween

00:15:58.500 and no one would care,

00:15:59.660 right?

00:16:00.140 And yet,

00:16:00.800 you look at Hitler 0.66

00:16:01.740 who obviously

00:16:02.600 was a terrible person

00:16:04.100 but is a terrible person

00:16:05.540 in a historical context.

00:16:07.280 You know,

00:16:07.400 he's doing terrible things

00:16:08.640 but he's doing them

00:16:09.640 in a historical context

00:16:10.640 and understanding that

00:16:12.080 is as important

00:16:13.020 as understanding

00:16:13.580 any other period

00:16:14.580 of history.

00:16:15.300 We look at

00:16:16.300 the Armenian genocide,

00:16:17.980 right?

00:16:18.320 And this is something

00:16:19.380 that we almost never

00:16:21.000 talk about

00:16:21.560 at this point.

00:16:22.300 It's a precursor

00:16:23.000 to the Holocaust 0.94

00:16:23.700 but we don't talk

00:16:24.960 about the Turks

00:16:26.060 as demons,

00:16:26.880 right?

00:16:27.020 We don't talk

00:16:27.480 about the eternal evil

00:16:29.380 of the Turk

00:16:30.140 and how that ultimately

00:16:31.560 they have to be like,

00:16:32.760 you know,

00:16:33.280 wiped off the face

00:16:35.320 of the earth

00:16:35.760 in order to,

00:16:36.680 you know,

00:16:37.100 somehow atone for this.

00:16:39.160 I mean,

00:16:39.380 really,

00:16:39.980 ultimately,

00:16:40.440 a lot of this came

00:16:41.280 with mechanization

00:16:43.280 and scale

00:16:43.860 and that's what

00:16:44.780 took these tragedies

00:16:46.220 which have existed

00:16:46.940 throughout history

00:16:47.620 into astronomical numbers

00:16:50.400 and a level

00:16:51.340 of dehumanization

00:16:52.200 that we haven't seen

00:16:53.320 previously

00:16:53.840 and as you're well aware,

00:16:55.560 dehumanization

00:16:56.200 of any people

00:16:57.100 is always the most

00:16:58.240 dangerous thing

00:16:59.260 to enable atrocities.

00:17:00.680 So you think ultimately,

00:17:02.180 especially as a country

00:17:03.320 that seems to be,

00:17:04.660 you know,

00:17:05.380 got dangerously close

00:17:06.520 to dancing

00:17:07.060 with a lot of Weimar problems,

00:17:08.800 you would probably

00:17:09.380 want to understand

00:17:10.260 what happened there,

00:17:11.580 right?

00:17:11.820 Even if you know

00:17:12.620 ultimately what happened

00:17:14.160 involved a large amount

00:17:15.580 of evil,

00:17:15.980 you would want to

00:17:16.920 understand that context

00:17:17.980 because that's the only way

00:17:19.660 in which you avoid

00:17:20.900 those outcomes again.

00:17:22.700 We hope you're enjoying

00:17:23.640 your Air Canada flight.

00:17:24.940 Rocky's vacation,

00:17:26.180 here we come.

00:17:27.680 Whoa,

00:17:28.320 is this economy?

00:17:29.780 Free beer,

00:17:30.560 wine,

00:17:31.040 and snacks.

00:17:32.260 Sweet! 0.95

00:17:33.340 Fast free Wi-Fi

00:17:34.300 means I can make

00:17:35.000 dinner reservations

00:17:35.740 before we land.

00:17:37.360 And with live TV,

00:17:38.660 I'm not missing the game.

00:17:40.160 It's kind of like

00:17:41.200 I'm already on vacation.

00:17:43.620 Nice! 0.94

00:17:44.700 On behalf of Air Canada,

00:17:46.080 nice travels.

00:17:47.860 Wi-Fi available

00:17:48.560 to Airplane members

00:17:49.320 on Equipped Flight

00:17:49.840 sponsored by Bell.

00:17:50.640 Conditions apply.

00:17:51.340 See AirCanada.com.

00:17:52.900 Yeah, that's right.

00:17:53.760 And I mean,

00:17:54.020 it might be something

00:17:54.620 that we think

00:17:55.160 we're immune to today,

00:17:56.280 but I mean,

00:17:57.860 all you have to do

00:17:58.400 is look at the way

00:17:59.100 half the country

00:17:59.860 has been talking

00:18:00.460 about Russia

00:18:01.040 for the last several years.

00:18:02.800 And, you know,

00:18:03.240 it's not the whole country

00:18:04.400 and probably the partisan

00:18:05.960 split in our country

00:18:07.100 has maybe helped

00:18:08.560 pull us back

00:18:09.280 from the brink on that

00:18:10.360 because, you know,

00:18:11.060 it's really hard

00:18:11.780 to get the whole country

00:18:12.940 to agree on something

00:18:13.800 so passionately about

00:18:14.860 something like that

00:18:17.400 these days.

00:18:18.540 And that's probably

00:18:19.180 a good thing

00:18:20.460 in that case.

00:18:22.120 But yeah,

00:18:22.760 I mean,

00:18:22.940 you see people,

00:18:23.800 you know,

00:18:24.220 I mean,

00:18:24.660 you even have like

00:18:25.820 government officials,

00:18:28.320 you know,

00:18:28.480 it was,

00:18:29.320 what's his name,

00:18:31.120 the pirate,

00:18:31.960 Crenshaw.

00:18:32.840 Crenshaw like tweeted out,

00:18:35.040 you know,

00:18:35.700 this is a U.S.

00:18:37.340 congressman

00:18:37.820 tweeting out

00:18:38.320 to the whole world

00:18:39.160 that he doesn't see

00:18:40.560 how anybody

00:18:41.080 can be complaining

00:18:41.880 about our support

00:18:42.780 for Ukraine

00:18:43.400 because we get

00:18:44.340 to kill Russian soldiers

00:18:45.680 and all it costs us

00:18:46.800 is money.

00:18:48.280 It's like,

00:18:49.080 what kind of a thing

00:18:50.840 is that to say?

00:18:51.500 I mean,

00:18:51.600 just from a diplomatic

00:18:52.600 perspective,

00:18:53.420 first of all,

00:18:53.900 but just also like

00:18:54.740 a human perspective,

00:18:55.760 like,

00:18:56.640 you know,

00:18:56.860 imagine if,

00:18:57.560 if,

00:18:57.800 if when we were in Iraq

00:18:59.160 and,

00:19:00.540 and you could make the case

00:19:01.540 that Russia 0.72

00:19:02.460 has a lot more

00:19:03.420 legitimate interest

00:19:05.200 in Ukraine

00:19:05.740 than we ever had

00:19:06.500 in Iraq

00:19:07.080 that was worth

00:19:07.620 fighting over

00:19:08.200 that might justify

00:19:09.160 an invasion

00:19:09.720 if you're going to rank them.

00:19:10.700 but if we were in Iraq

00:19:12.440 and we found out

00:19:13.280 that the Russians

00:19:14.260 were like fully supporting

00:19:15.820 with,

00:19:16.100 you know,

00:19:16.640 long range rocket artillery

00:19:18.600 and air defense

00:19:19.740 and intelligence

00:19:20.980 telling them

00:19:21.560 where to kill

00:19:22.160 our generals,

00:19:23.140 kill our, 0.98

00:19:23.720 you know,

00:19:24.040 envoys

00:19:24.620 and Russian politicians

00:19:26.680 are just out there

00:19:27.520 saying,

00:19:27.820 yeah,

00:19:27.900 we're doing this

00:19:28.520 because we get

00:19:29.060 to kill Americans. 0.81

00:19:30.180 That's the reason.

00:19:31.900 We'd hate them

00:19:32.660 for a hundred years

00:19:33.500 and we,

00:19:33.860 and we should.

00:19:34.720 And it's just,

00:19:35.860 it's just totally

00:19:36.500 irresponsible.

00:19:37.200 And you can't,

00:19:38.700 you know,

00:19:39.820 when you get to a point

00:19:40.980 where public officials

00:19:41.840 feel comfortable

00:19:42.720 talking about

00:19:43.520 other people like that

00:19:44.380 and forget the fact

00:19:45.040 that Russia has 0.74

00:19:45.680 nuclear weapons

00:19:46.520 and all that,

00:19:47.060 I mean,

00:19:47.160 that's another layer

00:19:47.860 to it.

00:19:48.160 But any people,

00:19:49.000 when public officials

00:19:50.260 start talking like that,

00:19:51.740 it's really very dangerous.

00:19:53.120 And the only thing

00:19:53.780 that,

00:19:54.120 you know,

00:19:54.460 I think that kept us

00:19:56.160 out of a much larger

00:19:57.080 conflagration,

00:19:57.940 at least so far,

00:19:59.540 you know,

00:19:59.920 is that there were,

00:20:02.720 well,

00:20:03.280 first of all,

00:20:03.900 just the fact

00:20:04.440 that they can't

00:20:05.240 control the narrative

00:20:06.280 as strongly

00:20:06.900 as they used

00:20:08.160 to be able to

00:20:08.840 and that there

00:20:09.280 are those of us

00:20:09.940 who from the very

00:20:10.540 beginning,

00:20:11.720 you know,

00:20:13.540 just question the wisdom

00:20:15.080 of us being involved

00:20:16.020 in this

00:20:16.400 and question our

00:20:16.940 responsibility

00:20:17.440 for the whole thing.

00:20:18.540 And,

00:20:18.780 you know,

00:20:20.380 I'm very glad for that

00:20:21.380 because I think

00:20:22.700 if people like

00:20:23.540 Crenshaw had their way,

00:20:24.700 I mean,

00:20:25.420 there'd be Americans 0.96

00:20:26.200 dying in this thing too.

00:20:28.260 Oh,

00:20:28.620 yeah,

00:20:29.060 100%.

00:20:29.720 And obviously,

00:20:30.740 as you pointed out,

00:20:31.940 one of the reasons

00:20:32.640 that this whole thing

00:20:33.620 is so dangerous

00:20:34.400 is that every time

00:20:35.700 we hear we gotta

00:20:36.780 put boots on the ground,

00:20:37.880 we gotta start

00:20:38.440 killing people, 0.96

00:20:39.080 it's always

00:20:40.080 the World War II

00:20:41.240 analogy,

00:20:41.800 right?

00:20:42.040 Everyone is Chamberlain,

00:20:43.800 everyone is,

00:20:44.920 you know,

00:20:46.000 Hitler. 0.57

00:20:47.240 Trump is somehow

00:20:48.060 both Chamberlain

00:20:48.800 and Churchill

00:20:49.440 simultaneously,

00:20:50.480 or Chamberlain

00:20:51.220 and Hitler 0.82

00:20:52.420 simultaneously.

00:20:53.360 He has this amazing

00:20:54.240 ability to occupy

00:20:55.540 both historical roles.

00:20:57.460 And so this is

00:20:58.040 just a narrative,

00:20:58.740 like you said,

00:20:59.180 that's used

00:20:59.900 to bludgeon people

00:21:00.900 to death. 0.75

00:21:01.780 But that said,

00:21:03.100 you know,

00:21:03.420 rehashing a bunch

00:21:04.140 of a controversy

00:21:05.180 that has nothing

00:21:05.740 to do,

00:21:06.520 more or less,

00:21:07.500 with what we were

00:21:08.000 actually supposed

00:21:08.480 to get to today.

00:21:09.480 Let's dive into

00:21:10.240 the actual topic.

00:21:11.580 So what you were

00:21:12.740 talking about on Twitter

00:21:13.800 was the way in which

00:21:15.120 the modern state

00:21:16.480 was a experiment

00:21:20.120 in basically getting rid

00:21:21.860 of all the things

00:21:22.940 that had bound

00:21:24.680 civilizations together

00:21:26.400 previously,

00:21:27.200 things like language,

00:21:29.100 religion,

00:21:29.720 heritage,

00:21:30.880 culture,

00:21:31.800 custom,

00:21:32.560 all these things

00:21:33.520 that had traditionally

00:21:34.640 been the social fabric

00:21:36.480 that really let

00:21:37.800 people look across

00:21:38.920 the street

00:21:39.440 and recognize

00:21:40.160 themselves in someone,

00:21:42.080 do business,

00:21:43.040 you know,

00:21:43.220 have a culture

00:21:44.640 in which they

00:21:45.140 understood each other,

00:21:46.840 they shared a moral vision,

00:21:48.360 a substrate from which

00:21:49.660 the rest of their civilization

00:21:50.880 could truly arise.

00:21:52.120 And ultimately,

00:21:53.460 that this vision

00:21:54.640 had failed,

00:21:55.460 that what we're seeing

00:21:56.360 now is kind of

00:21:57.540 a large-scale failure

00:21:58.980 behavior to attempt this.

00:22:00.660 And I had kind of replied

00:22:02.540 with, you know,

00:22:03.980 that this isn't

00:22:05.020 a particularly unique,

00:22:05.980 this is a modern

00:22:06.780 variation of it,

00:22:07.900 but it's not unique.

00:22:08.660 You want to lay out

00:22:09.460 a little more about

00:22:10.240 kind of what you think

00:22:11.500 about the modern state

00:22:12.220 and its experiment,

00:22:12.860 and we can kind of

00:22:13.540 just build on that

00:22:14.520 from there?

00:22:16.260 Yeah, you know,

00:22:16.940 I wonder if it's a function

00:22:18.260 of the state itself

00:22:19.500 or if it,

00:22:20.980 you know,

00:22:21.180 the reason I say that

00:22:23.380 is, you know,

00:22:25.040 it's very interesting

00:22:25.920 that it only really

00:22:27.020 seems to be happening

00:22:28.060 in European-majority countries

00:22:30.980 and specifically really

00:22:32.700 like Western European

00:22:33.820 and Anglo countries.

00:22:35.600 It doesn't even really

00:22:37.120 seem to have taken hold

00:22:38.420 in, you know,

00:22:39.260 the former Eastern Bloc.

00:22:40.640 Those are people

00:22:41.200 who really don't mind

00:22:42.060 still saying that

00:22:43.280 Hungary is a country

00:22:44.240 for Hungarian people,

00:22:45.520 it's a Christian country,

00:22:46.600 et cetera.

00:22:47.740 And so I think

00:22:50.300 when you have a sort

00:22:51.300 of a side-by-side

00:22:53.400 like that,

00:22:54.160 you know,

00:22:54.560 Christian Europeans

00:22:55.320 and Christian Europeans

00:22:56.380 and you have them

00:22:57.720 go to just diametrically

00:23:00.360 opposed ways

00:23:01.080 in a short period of time,

00:23:02.220 I think that's

00:23:02.740 a useful experiment,

00:23:04.000 you know,

00:23:04.360 to sort of explore.

00:23:06.380 But, you know,

00:23:07.700 like I don't think

00:23:08.360 any of us could

00:23:08.960 really imagine,

00:23:10.000 like China's 0.99

00:23:10.880 a developed state,

00:23:11.680 it's a modern state.

00:23:12.980 I don't think

00:23:13.780 any of us could imagine

00:23:14.800 China just deciding 0.86

00:23:16.020 that, you know,

00:23:18.160 their Han Chinese 0.97

00:23:19.300 majority doesn't

00:23:20.140 matter and people

00:23:21.240 don't need to be,

00:23:22.240 they don't need

00:23:22.560 to speak Chinese

00:23:23.500 or care about,

00:23:24.960 you just really

00:23:25.480 can't imagine that

00:23:26.360 in Japan or China

00:23:27.320 or really anywhere else.

00:23:28.240 It's something

00:23:28.640 pretty specific to us.

00:23:30.040 So whether it has

00:23:31.520 to do with just

00:23:32.500 a natural development

00:23:34.100 of the modern state

00:23:34.940 when it reaches

00:23:35.440 a certain level

00:23:36.100 of maturity

00:23:36.580 or if it's maybe

00:23:38.560 a mix of that

00:23:39.500 and our particular

00:23:40.500 culture that we've

00:23:41.620 developed over here

00:23:42.440 even very recently

00:23:43.380 is maybe an open question.

00:23:46.340 I was interested

00:23:47.000 in your point

00:23:47.860 that you just brought up,

00:23:49.560 which is,

00:23:50.580 you know,

00:23:50.780 when you said,

00:23:52.600 I can't remember

00:23:53.600 exactly the way

00:23:54.180 you put it,

00:23:54.660 but that it was,

00:23:55.280 yeah,

00:23:55.420 that it's not unique

00:23:56.160 and this is something

00:23:56.720 that happens

00:23:57.320 when states reach

00:23:58.100 a certain level

00:23:59.200 of development

00:23:59.760 or something.

00:24:00.380 It sounds like

00:24:00.980 more deterministic

00:24:01.940 than I would expect

00:24:02.620 from somebody

00:24:03.180 who subscribes

00:24:04.740 to elite theory.

00:24:05.660 So I was interested

00:24:06.320 in hearing you

00:24:06.900 expound on that.

00:24:08.500 Sure.

00:24:09.000 So the main thing

00:24:10.040 is that there's

00:24:10.860 the combination

00:24:11.720 of factors

00:24:12.660 that you kind of

00:24:13.220 pointed to there.

00:24:14.260 There's our own

00:24:15.000 cultural disposition

00:24:16.140 and the way

00:24:16.640 in which we've decided

00:24:17.780 to arrange identity

00:24:19.280 in kind of

00:24:20.240 a post-enlightenment West,

00:24:22.000 which is built,

00:24:23.600 stacked on top

00:24:24.600 of metaphysics

00:24:26.220 of power

00:24:26.800 that I think

00:24:27.700 to be accurate

00:24:28.360 from,

00:24:29.480 you know,

00:24:29.740 I think Bertrand de Juvenal

00:24:30.780 is probably the best

00:24:31.640 at laying this out,

00:24:33.500 but we can see

00:24:34.020 this echoed

00:24:34.540 all over the place.

00:24:35.460 Oswald Spangler,

00:24:37.240 Alexander Dugan,

00:24:38.380 you know,

00:24:38.820 like many people

00:24:40.300 have iterated

00:24:41.140 on this,

00:24:42.240 you know,

00:24:43.240 this phenomenon.

00:24:45.080 Basically,

00:24:45.920 have you read

00:24:47.120 The Ancient City?

00:24:47.800 Have you read

00:24:48.220 Colange's?

00:24:48.800 Oh, yeah.

00:24:49.500 Yeah, yeah.

00:24:50.340 So he kind of actually,

00:24:52.040 and I'm sure

00:24:52.560 he didn't mean this

00:24:53.340 because it happened,

00:24:53.980 you know,

00:24:54.180 hundreds of years

00:24:54.700 before de Juvenal

00:24:56.020 wrote on power,

00:24:56.860 but it's actually

00:24:57.560 a great illustration

00:24:58.460 of exactly

00:24:59.200 the metaphysics

00:25:00.040 of power

00:25:00.420 that de Juvenal

00:25:00.980 is laying out,

00:25:01.740 right?

00:25:01.940 In that book,

00:25:02.580 he talks about

00:25:03.700 how Roman

00:25:04.780 and Greek societies

00:25:05.760 begin as incredibly

00:25:07.020 tribal,

00:25:07.760 familial,

00:25:08.640 you know,

00:25:09.560 civilizations

00:25:10.840 and then in order

00:25:12.280 to scale up,

00:25:13.800 right,

00:25:14.000 first you need

00:25:14.560 to move beyond

00:25:15.500 the tribe,

00:25:16.380 you know,

00:25:16.900 to the kind of

00:25:17.380 the city

00:25:17.800 and then beyond

00:25:18.700 the city

00:25:19.180 to, you know,

00:25:20.100 other forms

00:25:21.040 of empire

00:25:21.680 or governance.

00:25:22.880 In every level

00:25:24.280 of this,

00:25:24.720 basically,

00:25:25.040 you have to

00:25:25.720 break down

00:25:26.380 previous identities

00:25:27.720 and we actually

00:25:28.320 kind of touched

00:25:28.780 on this

00:25:29.060 in one of our

00:25:29.780 previous conversations

00:25:31.260 about the need

00:25:32.400 of the state

00:25:32.820 to collapse

00:25:33.420 familial responsibilities

00:25:34.920 and loyalties,

00:25:36.000 right?

00:25:36.500 And that's the only

00:25:37.420 way that you can

00:25:38.240 ultimately create

00:25:39.240 another level

00:25:40.080 of organization.

00:25:40.920 You have to

00:25:41.620 free people

00:25:42.220 from these

00:25:42.820 pre-political

00:25:44.000 obligations

00:25:45.240 if you want

00:25:46.180 them to

00:25:46.740 fully embrace

00:25:48.120 your more

00:25:49.020 artificial and

00:25:49.820 abstract identity.

00:25:51.960 And again,

00:25:52.820 this is something

00:25:53.480 that you see

00:25:54.460 over and over,

00:25:55.440 but specifically,

00:25:56.280 of course,

00:25:56.640 Rome famously.

00:25:57.780 At one point,

00:25:58.220 you had to fight

00:25:58.820 a war to become

00:25:59.900 a Roman citizen,

00:26:00.920 right?

00:26:01.140 You needed to have

00:26:02.300 the Latin wars

00:26:03.260 for those residents

00:26:04.820 of Italy

00:26:05.340 to become Roman.

00:26:06.740 And by the end,

00:26:07.480 you had Roman 0.59

00:26:08.100 emperors like

00:26:08.640 Caracal just hoping

00:26:09.400 that they could

00:26:09.820 throw out Roman 1.00

00:26:10.460 citizenship as a

00:26:11.780 way to unify

00:26:12.440 the larger empire,

00:26:13.680 right?

00:26:13.920 It lost any of

00:26:15.400 its city-state

00:26:16.620 connotations or

00:26:17.840 its core ethnic

00:26:18.920 connotations and

00:26:20.240 instead become

00:26:21.080 this kind of

00:26:21.980 superstructure that

00:26:23.300 was an ideology

00:26:24.640 attempting to

00:26:25.300 hold a vast

00:26:26.440 and differentiated

00:26:27.600 populations together.

00:26:29.560 And so I do

00:26:30.280 think that what

00:26:31.700 we're seeing in

00:26:33.020 modern day is an

00:26:34.400 extension of that

00:26:35.140 metaphysics of power,

00:26:36.160 right?

00:26:36.460 Like, you have

00:26:37.300 to strip out

00:26:37.900 these lower-level

00:26:39.220 identities and

00:26:40.560 attempt to, if you

00:26:41.460 want to scale up,

00:26:42.200 if you want to

00:26:42.540 organize at higher

00:26:43.800 levels, simultaneously

00:26:45.020 our Enlightenment

00:26:46.360 understanding of

00:26:47.580 discarding a lot of

00:26:48.700 these previous

00:26:49.440 identities is also

00:26:50.880 useful in that.

00:26:51.740 And so one could

00:26:52.340 say that the, you

00:26:53.900 know, the

00:26:54.620 philosophical

00:26:55.180 development became

00:26:57.240 advantageous to a

00:26:59.200 material interest,

00:27:00.140 or you could say

00:27:01.260 that the, you

00:27:02.220 know, that

00:27:02.480 development of that

00:27:04.100 philosophical

00:27:04.680 abstraction,

00:27:06.000 allowed for a

00:27:07.120 higher level of

00:27:07.800 scaling than had

00:27:09.040 ever existed

00:27:09.660 previously.

00:27:10.580 It's kind of its

00:27:11.520 own technological

00:27:12.240 development in a

00:27:13.180 political realm.

00:27:14.260 But I think the

00:27:15.560 answer is a little

00:27:16.180 bit of both of

00:27:16.840 those, and that

00:27:17.400 kind of brings us

00:27:18.260 to the modern

00:27:19.260 condition.

00:27:19.920 It's a pattern

00:27:20.580 that's repeated

00:27:21.300 throughout history,

00:27:22.440 but it's something

00:27:23.100 that has reached

00:27:24.540 its current zenith

00:27:26.020 due to our

00:27:27.220 technological and

00:27:28.740 sociological

00:27:29.520 developments.

00:27:31.420 Yeah, and I

00:27:31.700 wonder, too, you

00:27:32.720 know, I mean,

00:27:33.020 it's something that

00:27:33.880 it's something

00:27:37.140 that has

00:27:38.420 probably been

00:27:39.180 with Americans

00:27:39.920 since the very

00:27:41.020 beginning, you

00:27:41.720 know, in the

00:27:42.340 sense that

00:27:42.920 Get unlimited

00:27:45.140 grocery delivery

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00:27:54.260 on repeat for

00:27:55.340 just $2.50 a

00:27:56.820 month.

00:27:57.320 Learn more at

00:27:57.900 pcexpress.ca.

00:27:59.740 I mean, we know

00:28:00.920 when we look at a

00:28:01.660 map, but I think

00:28:02.520 it's hard to put

00:28:03.560 ourselves back into

00:28:04.600 the 17th and

00:28:06.120 18th century mindset

00:28:07.420 to really understand

00:28:09.120 what a vast, vast

00:28:10.560 territory the United

00:28:12.000 States is.

00:28:12.620 I mean, it's just,

00:28:13.580 if you compare it to

00:28:14.380 like European 0.94

00:28:14.980 nation states, and

00:28:17.280 I mean, it's so

00:28:18.820 huge.

00:28:19.360 And like, you can

00:28:19.880 look at Russia. 0.66

00:28:21.020 That was a giant

00:28:21.900 empire for all of

00:28:22.900 its, you know, for

00:28:24.120 all of its history.

00:28:25.160 So, you know, they

00:28:26.200 had the Russians,

00:28:27.420 sure, but, you

00:28:28.480 know, they had the

00:28:29.040 Kazakhs over there 0.91

00:28:29.920 and the Mongols and 0.58

00:28:30.800 so forth over there.

00:28:31.860 And there was an

00:28:32.760 empire that ruled

00:28:33.540 over all these

00:28:34.160 different peoples who

00:28:35.000 kind of were

00:28:35.640 self-governing to a

00:28:36.660 large extent and had

00:28:37.620 their own territory

00:28:38.520 officially or unofficially

00:28:39.640 and so forth.

00:28:40.740 Over here in America,

00:28:41.460 we weren't an empire,

00:28:42.700 like, you know,

00:28:43.280 technically we didn't

00:28:43.900 think of ourselves

00:28:44.500 that way.

00:28:45.460 But if we were

00:28:46.380 going to ever

00:28:47.120 populate this

00:28:47.960 continent and not

00:28:48.820 have it, you

00:28:49.940 know, split up by

00:28:50.640 the French and

00:28:51.200 the Spanish and

00:28:51.940 whoever else, if

00:28:52.680 we were going to

00:28:53.060 actually go push to

00:28:54.160 the Pacific Ocean and

00:28:55.280 hold on to this

00:28:56.060 continental country,

00:28:58.520 we needed a ton of

00:28:59.400 people and there

00:29:00.000 weren't enough

00:29:00.420 English people to

00:29:01.340 come do it.

00:29:01.860 We needed people

00:29:02.460 from all over

00:29:03.640 Europe to populate

00:29:04.640 this country.

00:29:05.680 And when you go

00:29:06.100 back to, you

00:29:07.400 know, those days,

00:29:09.620 you know, it was

00:29:11.440 not some simple

00:29:12.180 thing like we think

00:29:12.960 of it today to

00:29:13.860 bring Irish and

00:29:15.280 English people into

00:29:16.240 the same city and

00:29:17.500 say, play nice

00:29:18.200 together and

00:29:18.900 participate as

00:29:19.880 equals in our

00:29:20.580 democratic political

00:29:21.440 system or to

00:29:22.520 bring Jews in from, 0.96

00:29:23.580 you know, Eastern

00:29:24.340 Europe and to

00:29:25.040 bring just all

00:29:26.540 these different

00:29:27.020 people that were

00:29:27.840 that were at the

00:29:28.640 time, you know,

00:29:29.360 again, we don't

00:29:30.440 think of them as

00:29:31.020 much today, but at

00:29:31.760 the time we're

00:29:32.200 radically different

00:29:32.920 from each other

00:29:33.500 and their identities

00:29:34.240 were often rooted

00:29:35.800 in their animosity

00:29:37.240 toward each other,

00:29:38.300 you know.

00:29:38.960 And so we had to

00:29:40.020 like bring those

00:29:41.440 people over here to

00:29:42.140 fill the continent,

00:29:42.780 but we weren't

00:29:43.760 building an empire.

00:29:44.760 So, you know, there

00:29:45.320 was a time I think

00:29:46.100 back in the, it

00:29:46.800 was like the, it

00:29:48.740 was like the mid

00:29:49.320 18th century when

00:29:50.720 some Irish were,

00:29:54.500 it might have been

00:29:54.940 the early 1800s

00:29:55.780 actually, they were

00:29:56.360 asking for a big

00:29:57.780 chunk of land over

00:29:58.640 in the Pacific

00:29:59.140 Northwest and they 0.86

00:29:59.980 could go make like a

00:30:00.820 mini Ireland that

00:30:01.660 would be a

00:30:02.020 confederation with

00:30:02.900 the United States

00:30:03.600 or something.

00:30:04.400 You know, we were

00:30:04.880 never going to do

00:30:05.460 that.

00:30:05.980 We took the

00:30:07.120 attitude from the

00:30:07.720 very beginning that

00:30:08.760 we got to be able to

00:30:09.400 take all these

00:30:10.100 people who are so

00:30:11.480 radically different

00:30:12.200 from each other,

00:30:12.880 different religions,

00:30:14.440 different sects of

00:30:15.240 Christianity, different 1.00

00:30:16.040 language, mutual

00:30:17.220 national hatreds, a lot

00:30:18.640 of them come over

00:30:19.260 here and we've got to

00:30:19.960 turn all those

00:30:20.640 people into

00:30:21.180 Americans and we

00:30:24.440 had to believe that

00:30:25.460 that was possible in

00:30:26.960 order for us to get

00:30:28.240 where we got today.

00:30:29.060 We wouldn't, if we

00:30:30.160 didn't believe those

00:30:31.020 things, then we

00:30:32.420 wouldn't, America

00:30:33.060 wouldn't be here

00:30:33.600 today in the form it

00:30:34.360 is.

00:30:34.680 You know, we might

00:30:35.120 be 13 colonies or

00:30:36.260 13 states on the

00:30:37.260 East Coast.

00:30:38.460 And so, you know, I

00:30:40.900 think, you know, one

00:30:41.900 of the things that

00:30:42.540 I've noticed as I've

00:30:44.560 been doing the World

00:30:45.160 War I and II

00:30:46.280 research is, you

00:30:47.780 know, the danger

00:30:48.700 of, you know,

00:30:51.620 having top-down

00:30:53.280 like purpose,

00:30:54.220 specific purpose

00:30:55.260 driven propaganda

00:30:56.260 that you start to

00:30:58.820 buy into yourself

00:30:59.900 and when the

00:31:00.360 purpose for which it

00:31:01.160 was created is no

00:31:02.220 longer around or

00:31:03.160 relevant, you still

00:31:04.400 believe it and it

00:31:05.220 just keeps on

00:31:06.200 driving your decisions

00:31:07.200 long past the

00:31:08.000 expiration point.

00:31:09.740 And we've kind of,

00:31:11.440 yeah, and so we

00:31:12.760 kind of have done

00:31:13.800 that in the United

00:31:14.980 States where we've

00:31:17.320 taken this just

00:31:18.240 radical openness

00:31:19.480 which, you know, we

00:31:21.100 had to be if we

00:31:21.960 were going to

00:31:22.520 populate this

00:31:23.260 continent and create

00:31:24.800 a nation out of

00:31:25.500 it.

00:31:27.260 But now the

00:31:28.000 continent's full and

00:31:29.040 our economy is

00:31:29.880 mature and we

00:31:31.660 don't need, you

00:31:32.580 know, we're

00:31:32.780 transitioning away 1.00

00:31:33.740 from like a mass

00:31:34.560 industrial economy

00:31:35.520 to information and

00:31:36.520 other economies and

00:31:38.100 yet we, you know,

00:31:39.720 it's like a spigot we

00:31:40.480 can't turn off at

00:31:41.280 this point.

00:31:42.400 You know, even

00:31:42.840 conservatives, like,

00:31:43.820 you see that, I

00:31:47.180 mean, take like the

00:31:48.200 most, if you were

00:31:48.900 to go to Stephen

00:31:49.440 Miller, you know, or

00:31:50.340 whoever presents as

00:31:51.500 like a radical

00:31:52.540 conservative on the

00:31:53.480 immigration question,

00:31:54.480 for example, they're

00:31:55.800 not talking, none of

00:31:56.720 them are talking about

00:31:57.680 legal immigration.

00:31:59.640 Like, that's just not

00:32:00.300 even on the menu.

00:32:01.280 For them, this is a

00:32:01.980 law enforcement issue.

00:32:03.140 We can't be having

00:32:03.820 people running around

00:32:04.880 who we're not

00:32:05.980 tracking and kind of

00:32:07.100 working into the,

00:32:08.460 you know, into the

00:32:09.420 system and so forth.

00:32:10.460 But the idea of just,

00:32:12.200 you know, maybe our

00:32:13.140 country's full, maybe

00:32:15.040 we don't need any

00:32:16.160 more people right

00:32:17.020 now.

00:32:17.500 Maybe we should just

00:32:18.280 take some time to

00:32:19.720 look around at the

00:32:20.540 people we've got and

00:32:22.140 maybe we need to get

00:32:22.800 to know each other for

00:32:23.540 a little while, so

00:32:24.240 let's draw the drapes

00:32:25.160 and do that.

00:32:26.060 Like, that's not even

00:32:26.740 on the mind of, like,

00:32:27.800 what most people

00:32:28.400 consider immigration

00:32:29.280 hawks, you know?

00:32:30.780 And so, and I think

00:32:32.440 that's because, like,

00:32:33.700 that ethic is really,

00:32:35.020 really deeply buried

00:32:37.360 in our national sort of

00:32:38.840 consciousness, you know?

00:32:39.800 Um, and when you,

00:32:42.920 you know, I brought

00:32:43.480 up the question of,

00:32:44.680 like, why does this

00:32:46.160 seem to be happening

00:32:46.920 specifically in

00:32:47.760 Western, Northern

00:32:48.440 European countries

00:32:49.360 in the Anglosphere?

00:32:50.700 And I think it's that,

00:32:52.080 you know, um, for all

00:32:53.900 the, for all the

00:32:54.460 damage that communism

00:32:55.460 did to the Eastern

00:32:56.320 Bloc, it protected 1.00

00:32:57.740 them from American

00:32:58.560 propaganda and

00:32:59.500 influence, you know,

00:33:00.500 in this sense.

00:33:01.900 And, um, we sort of

00:33:03.280 exported that idea

00:33:04.600 that we had to have.

00:33:06.120 You know, we had to

00:33:07.000 adopt that ethic if we

00:33:08.240 were going to build

00:33:08.680 the country and fill

00:33:09.480 it up.

00:33:10.040 And we sort of

00:33:10.980 exported that to

00:33:12.400 actual nation states,

00:33:14.480 you know, real nations

00:33:15.440 in Europe so that they 0.69

00:33:16.780 have sort of adopted

00:33:17.940 that morality to the

00:33:18.880 point where countries

00:33:20.060 like Sweden, who 0.59

00:33:21.380 never colonized

00:33:22.180 anybody, they never

00:33:23.180 did anything like

00:33:24.120 that.

00:33:24.700 Or Ireland, Ireland

00:33:25.980 wasn't colonizing,

00:33:27.400 Ireland was the 0.97

00:33:28.180 colony, you know what

00:33:28.940 I mean?

00:33:29.320 Like, and yet in a

00:33:31.580 few decades, um,

00:33:34.580 we've managed to

00:33:35.340 take these countries

00:33:36.060 that were so fiercely

00:33:36.900 nationalistic, you know,

00:33:38.420 case of Ireland, that

00:33:39.440 they were just

00:33:40.200 brutally oppressed,

00:33:41.640 enslaved, murdered,

00:33:42.820 starved for hundreds

00:33:44.040 of years.

00:33:44.640 And they were still

00:33:45.320 fighting.

00:33:46.300 And then in a few

00:33:47.140 decades, you know,

00:33:49.120 they gave their

00:33:49.880 country away to the

00:33:50.940 point where, you

00:33:51.760 know, I don't know

00:33:52.360 if this will actually

00:33:53.120 happen.

00:33:53.660 We'll see.

00:33:54.140 I hope the Irish

00:33:54.760 people have, uh, you

00:33:56.640 know, um, have the

00:33:58.260 strength and, and, and

00:33:59.300 sort of collective

00:33:59.920 will to, to, to

00:34:01.240 reverse this.

00:34:01.900 But I mean, if you

00:34:02.480 go Google it online,

00:34:03.620 Ireland's supposed to

00:34:04.440 be majority non-Irish 0.97

00:34:06.480 in like 2070 or

00:34:07.800 something like that.

00:34:08.500 It's like, yeah, you

00:34:10.180 know, when you see a

00:34:11.280 revolution that takes

00:34:12.120 place, that's so

00:34:13.060 radical in that sense.

00:34:15.220 And one that if you

00:34:17.580 go talk to just people,

00:34:19.420 you know, at your job

00:34:20.620 or the people you meet

00:34:21.680 on the street, nobody

00:34:22.780 seems to want it.

00:34:24.100 Like you don't ever

00:34:25.160 meet unless you go to

00:34:26.060 like, you know, a

00:34:27.360 college in San

00:34:28.500 Francisco or just

00:34:29.340 wherever, you'll never

00:34:30.140 find anybody actually

00:34:31.340 defending the fact that

00:34:32.740 Ireland's going to be 0.98

00:34:33.740 minority Irish by

00:34:35.000 2070, nobody seems

00:34:36.740 to want it.

00:34:37.360 And yet this top

00:34:38.120 down radical

00:34:39.000 revolution is being

00:34:39.960 imposed.

00:34:40.700 And when it happens

00:34:41.580 so rapidly and it's

00:34:42.560 so successful, I

00:34:43.360 mean, we really have

00:34:43.920 to like, we have to

00:34:45.440 ask ourselves why, like

00:34:46.560 what the causes are,

00:34:47.540 you know?

00:34:48.820 Well, I mean, it

00:34:49.780 isn't Sinn Féin like,

00:34:51.140 like currently trying

00:34:52.460 to find how many

00:34:53.300 transgender immigrants

00:34:54.300 they can pack in, you

00:34:55.760 know, at this point.

00:34:56.640 Uh, but, but, uh,

00:34:57.760 yeah, I mean, the

00:34:58.400 fact that this has

00:35:00.020 gone everywhere, uh,

00:35:02.140 even in the UK, they're

00:35:03.840 currently having this

00:35:04.660 debate over whether the

00:35:06.240 English even exist, right?

00:35:08.260 Like, like the, the,

00:35:09.740 the point that, uh,

00:35:11.680 Rishi Sunak may not be

00:35:13.200 English.

00:35:13.780 He might be British in 0.85

00:35:14.880 this like abstracted, uh,

00:35:16.980 sense, right?

00:35:17.600 But it is not ethnically

00:35:19.140 English.

00:35:19.520 Like that is currently

00:35:20.580 like this massive, uh,

00:35:22.280 knockdown drag out

00:35:23.240 that's running through

00:35:23.980 this country at the

00:35:24.820 moment.

00:35:25.460 Uh, ironically, some

00:35:26.320 of the people who have

00:35:26.960 accused the woke right

00:35:28.180 of focusing on

00:35:29.280 ethnicity are now in 0.97

00:35:30.340 the thick of pointing

00:35:31.060 to the fact that,

00:35:31.720 uh, you know,

00:35:32.140 English ethnicity exists

00:35:33.620 and it's an actual

00:35:34.740 thing, but your point

00:35:36.160 is, is ultimately

00:35:37.100 validated there that

00:35:38.320 the, this idea that

00:35:39.740 originally is part of

00:35:41.620 kind of the, the left's

00:35:42.880 mythology in the United

00:35:44.000 States, uh, ends up

00:35:45.800 becoming, uh, this thing

00:35:47.660 that is now spread back

00:35:50.040 to islands like the UK

00:35:51.680 that obviously had a

00:35:53.220 European ethnicity at

00:35:54.420 some point.

00:35:55.040 And I, I guess part of

00:35:56.820 this is probably

00:35:57.880 ironically, um, a

00:36:00.700 consequence of the

00:36:01.900 nation state, right?

00:36:03.380 This was not

00:36:04.020 necessarily the way

00:36:05.000 that people understood

00:36:06.060 the relationship

00:36:07.160 between, uh, rules

00:36:09.200 and the rulers and

00:36:10.600 the rule.

00:36:11.140 This is not how people

00:36:11.880 understood national

00:36:13.140 identity previously.

00:36:14.460 Uh, but ironically,

00:36:15.820 kind of this progressive

00:36:17.020 push to, uh, free

00:36:19.020 every nation from, uh,

00:36:21.240 outside rule and

00:36:22.440 establish states in, in

00:36:24.040 the identity of the

00:36:25.300 nations has now become

00:36:27.680 basically, uh, the

00:36:29.260 destruction of what a

00:36:30.680 nation was at all.

00:36:31.800 Now that the nation

00:36:33.080 and the state have

00:36:33.720 become kind of this

00:36:34.520 coterminous thing, they 0.80

00:36:35.540 end in the same, begin

00:36:36.620 and end in the same

00:36:37.320 place, people have lost

00:36:38.740 what national identity

00:36:39.760 means at all.

00:36:41.000 And so therefore being

00:36:42.360 part of a nation is

00:36:43.460 being part of a state,

00:36:44.520 the state's action, the

00:36:45.840 governance of the

00:36:46.480 state, the legal

00:36:47.320 borders of the state,

00:36:48.260 the legal structures of

00:36:49.320 the state are national

00:36:50.860 identity.

00:36:51.560 These things are, are

00:36:52.320 not separate.

00:36:53.260 And so anyone inside the,

00:36:55.640 you know, kind of formal

00:36:56.820 governance of the state

00:36:58.520 is part of the nation

00:36:59.700 and anyone outside of

00:37:01.220 it otherwise shouldn't

00:37:02.500 be, uh, that, that is

00:37:03.680 now kind of become the

00:37:04.680 way in which people

00:37:05.520 understand national

00:37:06.960 identity.

00:37:07.580 And this is, I think

00:37:08.860 pretty disastrous

00:37:09.720 because these things

00:37:10.720 were never the same.

00:37:11.740 Uh, and now that they

00:37:13.020 have become the same,

00:37:14.040 uh, any shift in

00:37:15.540 national governments,

00:37:16.540 any, any actual state

00:37:18.060 action becomes synonymous

00:37:19.800 with national identity.

00:37:21.200 And therefore people have

00:37:22.800 a very difficult time

00:37:23.880 understanding when the

00:37:25.180 state betrays the

00:37:26.360 nation, when you're,

00:37:27.360 when your political

00:37:28.420 leaders are selling out

00:37:29.480 the actual people,

00:37:30.280 they, they can't grasp

00:37:31.260 why, because they think

00:37:32.500 they should be the same

00:37:33.280 thing.

00:37:34.900 Yeah.

00:37:35.360 You mentioned earlier

00:37:36.180 about, and this is

00:37:37.200 something I think we

00:37:37.900 probably, we probably

00:37:40.180 talk about a bit every

00:37:41.140 time we, we connect,

00:37:42.420 but you know, the, the,

00:37:44.460 the tendency of modern

00:37:47.980 states to sort of claim,

00:37:50.320 uh, every domain of human

00:37:55.060 into like social life as,

00:37:56.740 as part of the state's

00:37:57.820 prerogative to, to, um,

00:37:59.280 to govern, you know,

00:38:00.380 things like the family or

00:38:01.620 the church, the idea that

00:38:03.040 there are these semi

00:38:03.940 sovereign entities out

00:38:05.180 there that the state

00:38:06.140 really has no business

00:38:07.340 poking its nose into.

00:38:09.180 I mean, if it does, then

00:38:11.240 it's because there's, you

00:38:13.600 know, some kind of high

00:38:14.300 crime happening or

00:38:15.460 something, you know,

00:38:16.200 like, like a overwhelming

00:38:17.740 abuse in a family or

00:38:19.240 something like that.

00:38:20.120 Otherwise the state, you

00:38:21.600 know, simply had no, it

00:38:24.320 w it was just not its

00:38:25.120 business.

00:38:25.600 Right.

00:38:26.260 And, um, you know, in

00:38:28.160 our society, which is so

00:38:29.240 focused on, and again,

00:38:31.220 like this is something that

00:38:32.260 you go back to 1776 and,

00:38:34.580 uh, apply it the way it was

00:38:36.580 meant then in the context of

00:38:38.320 the world, as it existed at

00:38:39.620 the time, individual

00:38:41.080 Liberty, um, you know, was

00:38:43.360 an, it was probably a moral

00:38:44.480 advance in a lot of ways.

00:38:45.700 It was, um, you know,

00:38:46.580 brought a lot of things into

00:38:47.500 the world that you and I

00:38:48.580 and everybody else are

00:38:49.340 probably very glad are

00:38:50.380 here.

00:38:51.220 Um, but when you take

00:38:52.440 that and you run it

00:38:53.840 through to it's like

00:38:54.600 logical conclusion, you

00:38:55.880 run into the, you know,

00:38:58.340 the, the, the unavoidable

00:38:59.600 fact that individual

00:39:01.500 Liberty is, but is not

00:39:04.200 primarily inhibited by the

00:39:05.920 state, you know, the

00:39:07.380 state, most people don't

00:39:08.500 interact with the state

00:39:09.540 very much at all.

00:39:10.660 Like, okay, you can't

00:39:11.940 like, um, well, nowadays

00:39:13.220 you probably can, but

00:39:14.340 like, uh, you mean, it

00:39:15.160 gives us to say you can't

00:39:15.920 shoot heroin on the city

00:39:17.280 streets, but, you know,

00:39:18.560 maybe you can now, but,

00:39:20.040 um, but, you know, beyond

00:39:21.220 that, like the, the

00:39:22.600 inhibitions on our Liberty,

00:39:23.760 uh, are from our

00:39:25.860 families, they're from our 0.99

00:39:27.140 communities, they're from

00:39:28.100 our churches, they're from

00:39:29.360 just all the, the, the

00:39:30.980 great web of local

00:39:32.120 obligations that, uh, we

00:39:34.240 all are sort of born and

00:39:35.380 raised into.

00:39:36.140 And so the state sort of

00:39:37.800 stepped in, in the name of

00:39:39.160 Liberty and claim the 0.75

00:39:41.640 authority to step, to step

00:39:43.580 into all those things and

00:39:44.720 start, you know, governing

00:39:46.060 them at a, at a micro

00:39:47.480 level, which naturally

00:39:48.920 just delegitimizes, you

00:39:50.860 know, those, those local,

00:39:52.240 uh, obligations and

00:39:53.500 institutions because, you

00:39:55.480 know, the, uh, you know,

00:39:57.280 they derive their

00:39:57.920 authority from patronage and

00:40:00.860 just, um, the shame that

00:40:02.460 comes with, uh, with, with

00:40:03.880 betraying those obligations.

00:40:05.080 And we've sort of, we've

00:40:06.160 sort of taken those away.

00:40:07.120 Everything that those local

00:40:09.000 organizing, uh, centers, you

00:40:11.780 know, used to provide to

00:40:12.860 people, the state has

00:40:14.580 taken up all of those

00:40:15.840 things.

00:40:16.200 And so, you know, and

00:40:17.080 it's done this strangely

00:40:18.060 again, in the name of

00:40:19.060 Liberty, um, it, you know,

00:40:21.540 it's sort of taken to

00:40:22.820 itself, like the role of

00:40:24.420 being the guarantor against

00:40:25.880 the, uh, uh, the, the, um,

00:40:29.520 interference of our rights

00:40:30.860 by our family, local people

00:40:33.100 around us, you know, and

00:40:34.100 that's the state's kind of

00:40:34.920 primary role in a lot of

00:40:36.080 ways, like with regard to

00:40:37.220 our, uh, personal lives.

00:40:39.080 And so when you do that,

00:40:40.380 like you create a state,

00:40:41.440 that's like a, it's like

00:40:42.540 a hollow eggshell, you

00:40:43.940 know, the, the outer

00:40:45.000 structure is intact, but

00:40:46.640 inside there's nothing.

00:40:47.940 And therefore it's very,

00:40:49.040 very fragile, you know,

00:40:50.960 the, the, the, um, the

00:40:54.300 traditional, um, it was

00:40:55.940 really actually, I, I like

00:40:57.360 what you said about the

00:40:58.180 nation and the state having

00:40:59.140 become kind of

00:41:00.240 coterminous, uh, for

00:41:01.440 people, because that is

00:41:02.340 true.

00:41:02.840 And I think that's kind of

00:41:04.260 what happens when you wipe

00:41:05.400 out all those other

00:41:06.140 collectivities, you know,

00:41:07.720 people still want to

00:41:08.480 belong to something.

00:41:09.260 And that's the thing up,

00:41:10.700 that's the thing that has

00:41:11.500 all the power, all the

00:41:12.980 ability to distribute

00:41:14.020 patronage, all the ability

00:41:15.540 to punish all the, just 0.80

00:41:17.120 everything is collected to

00:41:18.220 there.

00:41:18.460 And so it's natural for

00:41:19.360 people to identify with it.

00:41:21.200 And, um, you know, in, in,

00:41:23.880 that was something was like

00:41:25.240 much more difficult in the

00:41:26.400 past when these, before

00:41:27.760 those local collectivities

00:41:28.920 were broken up because,

00:41:30.100 you know, people thought of

00:41:31.980 their nation as well, it's

00:41:34.460 the, um, you know, my, my

00:41:36.360 ancestors are buried here

00:41:38.460 and, um, you know, my

00:41:40.400 family and my friends and

00:41:41.580 my community exist in this

00:41:43.020 place and are able to

00:41:44.280 exist because of our

00:41:45.280 membership and these

00:41:46.080 larger, uh, political

00:41:47.800 entities and so forth.

00:41:49.120 It was like, it was a

00:41:50.020 bottom up kind of building

00:41:51.420 structure, you know, the

00:41:52.480 nation state, the, the

00:41:53.780 state was like the thing

00:41:55.600 that the, the, the star on

00:41:57.200 top of the tree, you know,

00:41:58.860 um, whereas now like the

00:42:00.840 tree's just been stripped

00:42:01.600 down and you gotta, you

00:42:02.540 gotta star up there just

00:42:03.580 sort of balancing on a

00:42:04.620 thin branch and, um, you

00:42:07.880 know, whether, again,

00:42:08.860 whether that's something

00:42:09.740 that, uh, that happens

00:42:12.240 naturally just through the

00:42:13.820 course of political and

00:42:14.880 economic and technological

00:42:16.180 development, um, that

00:42:18.420 could be the case, but I do

00:42:20.280 wonder though, because

00:42:21.100 again, I think we all would

00:42:22.600 agree that it's, it's

00:42:23.780 really hard to imagine that

00:42:25.060 happening in like Japan, 0.96

00:42:26.500 you know, no matter what

00:42:27.500 they could adopt our

00:42:28.720 constitution word for

00:42:29.920 word, all of our economic

00:42:32.120 reg, everything.

00:42:32.880 And I feel like Japan

00:42:34.380 would not go for that.

00:42:35.460 You know what I mean?

00:42:36.600 Well, I feel like Japan

00:42:37.680 could avoid it as an

00:42:39.000 island nation, but I

00:42:40.320 think a Imperial Japan

00:42:42.300 would go down this road.

00:42:43.920 Okay.

00:42:44.680 Um, I think this is, I

00:42:46.140 think this is a necessity

00:42:47.160 of scale.

00:42:48.400 Uh, you, you, uh, you

00:42:50.300 know, as we've both, you

00:42:51.860 know, again, you, you

00:42:52.940 look back to Kalanj and

00:42:54.000 you understand that the

00:42:55.180 city state was the

00:42:55.960 natural formation for

00:42:57.760 most of human history,

00:42:59.020 because really that's

00:43:00.420 about how, what you can

00:43:01.540 handle, right?

00:43:02.020 You've got Dunbar's

00:43:02.780 number, you're, you're,

00:43:03.940 you're wired to interact

00:43:05.300 with a village.

00:43:06.160 Uh, you know, anything

00:43:07.580 beyond that takes a large

00:43:09.000 degree of social

00:43:09.860 architecture that simply

00:43:10.920 didn't exist, uh,

00:43:12.860 previously.

00:43:13.400 And that's why the state

00:43:15.460 wasn't able usually to

00:43:17.340 hollow out the power of

00:43:18.380 families.

00:43:18.940 Again, you go back to

00:43:20.020 Kalanj, you think about,

00:43:20.980 you know, he says that

00:43:21.560 the gins had to be, uh, 0.99

00:43:23.300 undermined in order for

00:43:24.600 the Roman Republic to

00:43:25.680 rise because, uh, you

00:43:27.200 know, if it, for it to

00:43:28.020 transcend the tribal and

00:43:29.480 then the city state

00:43:30.240 mindset, it had to strip 0.99

00:43:32.340 away this power, but it

00:43:33.420 didn't have it previously,

00:43:34.520 so it couldn't.

00:43:35.640 And so there's always the

00:43:36.800 natural limitation on the

00:43:38.000 expansion of the power of

00:43:38.980 the state was this ability

00:43:40.280 to provide the necessary

00:43:41.600 architecture to fill in for

00:43:43.560 the social guarantors that

00:43:44.860 we're talking about, right?

00:43:45.880 If the church, the, the,

00:43:47.460 the, uh, civic

00:43:48.500 organization, the

00:43:49.320 extended family, these are

00:43:50.580 the things guaranteeing

00:43:51.820 your day-to-day rights in a

00:43:53.480 real sense, right?

00:43:54.200 Like we, you know, if you,

00:43:54.980 if you live in a tribal

00:43:55.680 society, it's your brothers

00:43:57.400 who are guaranteeing your

00:43:58.380 rights.

00:43:58.860 Yeah.

00:43:59.340 It's, it's your ability to

00:44:00.620 bring 15, 20 guys, uh, you

00:44:03.340 know, to, to a conflict that

00:44:04.960 guarantees your rights.

00:44:06.420 Um, so it, the, the family

00:44:08.080 is critical.

00:44:08.600 Those bonds are critical.

00:44:09.740 It's, it's the church that

00:44:11.380 handles charity.

00:44:12.120 They're the ones that help

00:44:13.060 you take care of your

00:44:14.220 ailing parents and the

00:44:15.280 destitute and whatever.

00:44:16.460 But the minute the state has

00:44:18.020 the ability to fill in this

00:44:19.200 architecture is the minute it

00:44:20.960 can steal that power, right?

00:44:22.020 It can undermine those ties.

00:44:23.320 It can free you from those

00:44:24.620 ties in a sense, but it's

00:44:26.240 also going to bind you then 0.99

00:44:27.460 under its power.

00:44:28.240 And by hollowing out those

00:44:29.280 identities, you create the

00:44:30.860 situation we're in today.

00:44:31.920 So you're right that I don't

00:44:33.100 think the Japanese would 1.00

00:44:34.320 adopt this in their current

00:44:35.840 formation, but if, if the

00:44:38.200 Japanese were trying to, 0.97

00:44:39.280 you know, operate a global

00:44:40.500 empire that ran half the

00:44:41.700 world, I think that

00:44:42.920 actually they would run into

00:44:44.180 this problem.

00:44:44.840 And, and I think, again, we

00:44:46.140 can see this in most

00:44:47.760 civilizations that spread to

00:44:49.340 this size, unless they

00:44:50.520 practice a high degree of

00:44:52.720 compartmentalization.

00:44:54.220 Again, much like we were

00:44:55.660 talking about with kind of

00:44:56.780 world war atrocities, the

00:44:59.100 reason that those got, you

00:45:00.560 know, genocide had existed

00:45:01.860 throughout, throughout human

00:45:03.720 history, you know, the, you

00:45:05.140 know, the Far East

00:45:05.720 slaughtered how many Romans 1.00

00:45:07.020 who were abroad on a

00:45:08.760 regular basis when they were

00:45:09.840 worried about their

00:45:10.480 influence, but they simply

00:45:12.080 did not have the mechanical

00:45:13.220 ability to just kill six,

00:45:15.080 10 million people, whatever,

00:45:16.360 right?

00:45:17.440 In the same way.

00:45:18.640 I think that's also true when

00:45:19.860 it comes to state expansion.

00:45:20.920 Like one of the reasons we've

00:45:21.940 gotten to where we are is

00:45:23.480 simply we got far up enough

00:45:25.260 the tech tree to be able to

00:45:27.180 kind of create this level of

00:45:28.880 abstraction that didn't exist

00:45:30.140 previously.

00:45:30.600 Other civilizations creating

00:45:32.280 empires would have if they 0.98

00:45:33.340 could have, but they

00:45:34.160 couldn't.

00:45:34.620 So they didn't end up in this

00:45:35.840 position.

00:45:37.820 So, but you think Rome did,

00:45:39.760 right?

00:45:40.520 To, to some extent, again,

00:45:41.880 not to the severity that we

00:45:43.800 ended up with, but you can't

00:45:45.260 tell me that Roman citizenship in, 0.72

00:45:47.300 you know, 200 BC looked the

00:45:49.420 same that it did in 280.

00:45:51.460 These are radically different,

00:45:52.580 you know, ideas of belonging

00:45:55.000 at this point.

00:45:56.380 Yeah.

00:45:56.600 Obviously they still had a lot

00:45:57.780 of the tribal infrastructure

00:45:58.760 because it just, they, you

00:45:59.980 know, they didn't have the

00:46:01.040 ability to break it apart the

00:46:02.280 same way that we do now.

00:46:03.760 Yeah.

00:46:04.620 You know, to bring up like the

00:46:06.500 Russian empire again, or even

00:46:08.140 the British up until the 20th

00:46:10.140 century.

00:46:10.520 I mean, they seem to be able

00:46:11.900 to maintain a sense of their

00:46:13.360 native, like ethnos, despite 1.00

00:46:16.060 having massive empires, like

00:46:17.800 for a long, long time.

00:46:18.860 But I mean, your point's well

00:46:19.800 taken though.

00:46:20.380 I've, I've, you know, I think

00:46:21.660 I've said before somewhere

00:46:22.660 that, uh, you know, you get a

00:46:24.900 choice between a nation or an 0.90

00:46:26.260 empire and you can't have both

00:46:27.640 because once you have an

00:46:28.760 empire, then the whole world

00:46:29.940 has a stake in how your

00:46:31.000 country's run.

00:46:32.200 And you can say, well, too

00:46:33.460 bad it's our country, but

00:46:34.660 that's just, you're, you know,

00:46:36.760 you're competing with others

00:46:37.940 for the, uh, you know,

00:46:39.940 command of your, of your

00:46:41.060 state at that point.

00:46:41.980 And so you make that choice

00:46:43.400 or you go down that road,

00:46:44.600 whether you make it or not,

00:46:45.460 and that's what you get.

00:46:47.000 So, um, you know, I wonder

00:46:50.560 though, like, um, I was

00:46:53.080 thinking about your, you

00:46:54.060 know, what you said about the

00:46:55.100 state and the nation becoming,

00:46:56.380 uh, kind of identical in

00:46:58.280 people's minds and how that

00:46:59.600 sort of, how that, how that

00:47:01.580 fits with the fact that, um,

00:47:04.860 you know, like sort of the

00:47:06.600 official, the official

00:47:09.340 morality says that like, if

00:47:11.260 you see somebody burning

00:47:12.300 an American flag, for

00:47:13.400 example, that you shouldn't

00:47:15.320 have like a big emotional

00:47:16.500 reaction to that.

00:47:17.400 You should just keep

00:47:18.060 walking and let that person

00:47:19.220 express their freedom or

00:47:20.460 whatever.

00:47:21.120 And, you know, it's, it's

00:47:22.880 not something that I would

00:47:24.700 expect if, uh, you know, if

00:47:26.860 the American state was sort

00:47:28.220 of like taken up as the

00:47:29.580 sacred cow that the nation

00:47:30.780 used to be for people.

00:47:31.840 Um, you know, it seems

00:47:34.280 like, um, I, I, I, I know

00:47:37.120 people like, um, I think

00:47:38.900 Jordan Peterson, I haven't

00:47:39.980 followed him in a really

00:47:40.600 long time, but he's always

00:47:41.600 liked to say a version of

00:47:43.240 this.

00:47:43.500 And you see a lot of, a

00:47:44.800 lot of people say something

00:47:47.160 along the lines of like how

00:47:48.740 pathetic it is for people to

00:47:50.960 pride themselves on the

00:47:52.240 accomplishments of their

00:47:53.180 ancestors instead of like

00:47:54.440 their own achievements or

00:47:55.680 whatever.

00:47:55.940 And I was always just, for

00:47:59.780 one, I think that's

00:48:00.380 ignorant, but also I just, I

00:48:01.780 find it kind of like

00:48:03.360 offensively stupid, you 0.79

00:48:04.680 know, because, you know,

00:48:06.340 the idea that, um, you

00:48:10.240 know, the, the idea that you

00:48:13.000 can hang your hat on what

00:48:15.280 little you might do in your

00:48:17.020 individual life and that that

00:48:18.400 should somehow be a point of

00:48:19.720 pride for you, uh, that

00:48:22.000 transcends like your 1.00

00:48:23.160 membership in these things

00:48:24.640 that are larger and, and,

00:48:25.920 and longer lasting than

00:48:27.020 yourself, um, you know,

00:48:29.560 taking pride in those things

00:48:30.860 seems to me a much more

00:48:32.420 legitimate form of pride and

00:48:34.100 satisfaction and a greater

00:48:35.460 sense of meaning than, you

00:48:37.260 know, I got a promotion at my

00:48:38.320 job or whatever, you know?

00:48:41.360 Um, and I think that's how

00:48:43.040 people, that's how, that's

00:48:45.240 how people did find meaning,

00:48:46.500 especially people who were,

00:48:48.000 you know, I think, uh, you

00:48:49.640 know, you see like elites

00:48:50.940 people who, you know, Elon

00:48:52.560 Musk can, he can derive 0.87

00:48:55.060 meaning from the fact that

00:48:56.160 he's shooting rockets into

00:48:57.060 space, you know, and he's the

00:48:58.520 richest man in the world and

00:48:59.880 like whatever.

00:49:01.360 Um, and at lower levels of

00:49:04.400 like elite, uh, and, and

00:49:06.080 elite aspirant behavior, you

00:49:07.380 get, you get some of that

00:49:08.860 same sort of mentality.

00:49:10.360 Um, but for people who are,

00:49:12.060 you know, down in the middle

00:49:13.280 and the bottom, you know,

00:49:14.960 they, they take their

00:49:15.920 meaning.

00:49:16.880 We, we take our meaning like

00:49:18.380 where we can find it, you

00:49:19.440 know, and, and, you know,

00:49:20.760 these stubborn, uh, attachments

00:49:22.900 of nation and family and

00:49:24.560 place and religion and, and,

00:49:26.780 uh, all of these things are

00:49:28.280 the basis of people's, uh,

00:49:30.280 meaning in their lives.

00:49:31.240 And so when the state

00:49:32.500 embarks on that project to

00:49:34.000 sort of delegitimize all

00:49:35.820 those things, you know, in

00:49:37.180 the name of, you know, having,

00:49:39.640 I guess a more openness so

00:49:41.240 that you can operate your

00:49:42.200 state at a larger scale or

00:49:43.820 whatever, um, you know, they,

00:49:46.440 at the same time, we're

00:49:47.340 taking away the basis of

00:49:48.720 meaning for the majority

00:49:50.320 of the population.

00:49:51.960 And, um, and this is being

00:49:53.120 done again by elites who

00:49:54.400 really couldn't see like why

00:49:55.900 people were so attached to

00:49:58.000 those things in the first

00:49:58.840 place, you know, like Obama

00:49:59.920 talking about these people

00:50:00.960 are attached to their guns

00:50:02.080 and their Bibles, you know,

00:50:03.760 he, he could have said like

00:50:05.100 it would have meant the

00:50:05.740 same thing.

00:50:06.720 He could have said they're

00:50:07.740 attached to their American

00:50:08.720 flags and their Bibles, you

00:50:10.200 know, it was poor people down

00:50:11.480 there.

00:50:12.300 And, um, and that's the

00:50:13.860 mentality, I think of the

00:50:14.980 decision makers, you know,

00:50:16.080 because again, they have

00:50:16.960 other things that they're

00:50:17.960 proud of other than the

00:50:18.940 fact that they're Americans

00:50:19.980 or they're part of this,

00:50:21.280 you know, long tradition of

00:50:22.900 Christianity or come from a 1.00

00:50:24.380 good family or something.

00:50:26.480 Um, you see it when you go

00:50:28.500 to DC, I'm sure you've been

00:50:29.560 there.

00:50:29.780 Like it, it always cracks me

00:50:31.520 up.

00:50:31.760 You go down to the national

00:50:32.900 mall area and walk around

00:50:34.380 and you see people, you know,

00:50:36.100 who work in like the 0.64

00:50:38.240 department of agriculture

00:50:39.320 probably or something, but

00:50:40.480 you walk all down every

00:50:42.100 street and you look at the

00:50:43.360 faces of people, you know,

00:50:44.520 you've got the Washington

00:50:45.240 monument there and the

00:50:46.400 capitals there and they're

00:50:47.700 walking down the sidewalk to

00:50:49.420 go to work at the department

00:50:50.500 of agriculture.

00:50:51.540 And they are so pleased with

00:50:53.200 themselves.

00:50:54.040 I mean, they are, they think

00:50:55.400 they are so awesome.

00:50:56.780 You know, just I'm walking

00:50:58.200 by the Washington monument on

00:51:00.160 the way to work at the, you

00:51:01.440 know, and they're so happy

00:51:02.620 with themselves.

00:51:03.240 And so, you know, you could

00:51:04.920 take people like that who

00:51:06.920 don't feel like they need any

00:51:08.180 of those other things.

00:51:09.080 They're probably wrong.

00:51:10.460 You know, they'll find out the

00:51:11.760 hard way one day that they are

00:51:13.220 wrong and they're going to be

00:51:14.400 just as alienated as everybody

00:51:15.820 else.

00:51:17.400 But those are the people who,

00:51:18.760 you know, who shape our

00:51:19.720 policies and impose this on

00:51:21.000 the rest of us.

00:51:22.460 And, you know, it's kind of

00:51:23.920 natural that, you know, like,

00:51:25.200 like Peterson would say

00:51:26.180 something like that to, to

00:51:29.460 sort of ridicule and mock

00:51:30.860 people for subscribing to

00:51:32.340 like racialism.

00:51:33.680 You know, that's what he's

00:51:34.300 talking about.

00:51:35.020 But there's really no

00:51:36.000 argument or no reason you

00:51:37.400 can't take his argument that

00:51:38.740 you shouldn't take pride in

00:51:39.880 like, you know, the

00:51:41.000 achievements of larger

00:51:42.440 collectives you're a part of.

00:51:43.500 There's no reason you can't

00:51:44.480 take that argument and apply

00:51:45.320 it to everything.

00:51:46.120 You can delegitimize

00:51:46.840 patriotism with that.

00:51:48.160 You can delegitimize faith 0.91

00:51:49.220 anything, you know, because,

00:51:50.960 well, OK, that's nice.

00:51:52.040 But what have you done?

00:51:52.960 Or how does it harm you

00:51:53.800 personally?

00:51:54.560 You know, and

00:51:55.840 and that's kind of what's

00:51:57.260 that's kind of what's been

00:51:58.400 done.

00:52:00.000 Yeah, I think most

00:52:00.940 conservatives don't

00:52:02.160 recognize the

00:52:03.380 civilizational acid

00:52:04.960 that is liberalism

00:52:06.400 when they see it.

00:52:07.860 So you're exactly

00:52:10.320 right to point out

00:52:11.160 that this that Peterson

00:52:12.360 is only echoing a

00:52:13.680 conservative talking point

00:52:14.840 that's been around for a

00:52:15.720 long time.

00:52:16.300 Right.

00:52:17.060 Simultaneously, we should

00:52:18.020 take great pride in the

00:52:19.360 founding fathers and our

00:52:20.380 founding documents and

00:52:21.820 and being

00:52:23.160 American.

00:52:23.640 But also, we should have

00:52:25.360 no pride in our

00:52:26.480 previous achievements,

00:52:28.260 our, you know, our

00:52:29.480 heritage, any of these

00:52:31.060 things.

00:52:31.420 It's all individual

00:52:32.140 accomplishment.

00:52:33.000 Obviously, those things

00:52:33.820 can't be simultaneously

00:52:34.980 true, but we're asked to

00:52:37.140 act as if they are.

00:52:38.540 And Peterson is regularly

00:52:39.880 bringing up archetypal

00:52:41.020 stories that are founded

00:52:42.480 deep in our subconscious

00:52:44.040 because of our heritage,

00:52:46.040 because of our lineage,

00:52:47.360 our language, our shared

00:52:48.420 cultures, and yet rejects

00:52:51.140 pride in those things, even

00:52:53.120 though he believes they

00:52:54.380 can ultimately define us.

00:52:55.680 And I think a lot of this

00:52:56.360 comes from the failed

00:52:58.060 conservative attempt to

00:52:59.960 juxtapose individualism

00:53:03.180 and collectivism as if they

00:53:05.360 are some kind of

00:53:06.460 differentiated force, which

00:53:07.980 of course is insane.

00:53:09.860 And a lot of it also comes

00:53:11.560 after the kind of the

00:53:12.840 post-war consensus problem.

00:53:14.400 Right.

00:53:14.680 Like there's a reason that

00:53:16.840 it's really important if

00:53:18.480 you've noticed recently

00:53:19.340 everyone's scoffing at the

00:53:20.600 great men of history.

00:53:21.440 Think again, like this is

00:53:23.060 entered the discourse yet

00:53:24.140 again, that we're, we're

00:53:25.140 not allowed to have great

00:53:26.600 men of history.

00:53:27.920 Someone was asking me on a

00:53:29.720 Twitter space recently,

00:53:30.520 like, why don't we do

00:53:31.460 that?

00:53:31.660 Like, why don't we study

00:53:32.940 the great men anymore?

00:53:34.320 Why don't we have

00:53:34.960 classical educations?

00:53:36.320 Why don't we attempt to

00:53:37.600 learn Latin and Greek so we

00:53:39.160 can have this continuity of

00:53:41.440 civilization and understand,

00:53:43.220 you know, kind of the

00:53:45.020 context in which our great

00:53:46.660 works are rendered?

00:53:47.660 And, and the answer is

00:53:49.500 because we needed to sever

00:53:50.980 ourselves from all previous

00:53:52.740 human civilizations in order

00:53:54.860 to kind of create the

00:53:56.540 highly atomized existence

00:53:59.120 we have today.

00:54:00.560 We wanted to get rid of the 1.00

00:54:02.040 strong gods.

00:54:02.900 We wanted to get, we wanted

00:54:04.040 weak bonds.

00:54:06.240 We wanted, you know, economic

00:54:07.820 bonds.

00:54:08.560 We wanted bonds of ideology.

00:54:11.680 We didn't want bonds of

00:54:12.780 heritage.

00:54:13.040 We didn't want bonds of

00:54:14.240 religion.

00:54:14.580 We didn't want bonds that

00:54:16.020 drove men towards the great

00:54:17.660 passions because great and

00:54:19.680 terrible things sit behind

00:54:20.940 those bonds, right?

00:54:22.020 The, the worst atrocities in

00:54:23.900 the world and the greatest

00:54:25.160 feats and endeavors of the

00:54:27.020 world all sit, you know, it,

00:54:29.260 but kind of behind those

00:54:30.280 forces.

00:54:30.940 And so I think that that's why

00:54:33.420 ultimately we have been

00:54:35.000 encouraged.

00:54:35.520 And, and, and I doubt you

00:54:36.720 would sit down with the, you

00:54:38.400 know, someone at the

00:54:39.460 department of education

00:54:40.360 like, oh no, we're going

00:54:41.420 with trends and forces

00:54:42.280 history because it gets rid of

00:54:43.600 like a possible great men.

00:54:45.480 Right.

00:54:45.880 But ultimately I think that

00:54:47.420 is kind of the driver is

00:54:49.100 when we wanted pacified

00:54:50.580 civilizations in which, uh,

00:54:52.480 the, these great spirits

00:54:53.720 that could animate human

00:54:54.900 action were banished.

00:54:56.560 Right.

00:54:56.920 And, and I think that's why

00:54:58.320 we did it with history.

00:54:59.320 I think that's why we did

00:55:00.240 it, uh, with our, the, are

00:55:02.060 the way that we create our

00:55:03.060 governments, the way that we

00:55:04.020 encourage people to think

00:55:04.940 about their identity and

00:55:06.500 their, their spiritual

00:55:07.440 structures and everything

00:55:08.220 else.

00:55:08.740 Religion.

00:55:09.140 We have to disinvest from

00:55:10.840 it.

00:55:11.040 Heritage.

00:55:11.540 We have to disinvest from

00:55:12.440 it, you know, a great,

00:55:13.780 the idea that great men

00:55:14.700 can drive history.

00:55:15.600 It all has to go because

00:55:16.660 if these things exist, well

00:55:18.600 then history is an

00:55:19.740 existential struggle.

00:55:20.660 It's not over.

00:55:21.560 It's not solved.

00:55:22.860 It's great powers are

00:55:23.860 moving any moment.

00:55:25.360 The, the, the, the

00:55:26.240 metaphysical animating

00:55:27.420 spirit of any given

00:55:29.060 civilization could drive

00:55:30.160 it to greater terrible

00:55:31.060 things.

00:55:31.600 And so I think that's

00:55:32.900 why we see the interest

00:55:34.700 in kind of defending all

00:55:36.320 of these disciplines and

00:55:37.340 all of these motivations

00:55:38.260 because ultimately they're

00:55:40.060 dangerous to the status

00:55:41.380 quo as we understand it.

00:55:44.420 Yeah.

00:55:44.980 And I mean, I just say

00:55:47.880 that you can't really

00:55:48.740 expect a bureaucrat to

00:55:50.320 subscribe to great man of

00:55:51.620 history theory.

00:55:52.620 You know what I mean?

00:55:54.300 So.

00:55:55.340 Yeah.

00:55:55.680 If you're, if you're, if

00:55:57.340 you know, uh, what is

00:55:58.820 it, um, uh, you, you get

00:56:00.520 to, uh, Alexander statue

00:56:02.160 and you're supposed to

00:56:02.860 weep because you've not,

00:56:04.000 uh, you have not, uh,

00:56:05.220 achieved what Alexander

00:56:06.220 has, you know, bureaucrat

00:56:07.600 can't even look at

00:56:08.460 Alexander.

00:56:08.940 You can't, can't even

00:56:09.500 acknowledge the existence

00:56:10.320 about Alexander's

00:56:11.380 statue, right?

00:56:12.660 They, they've, they've

00:56:13.460 invested in a mode of

00:56:15.000 being that denies, uh,

00:56:17.440 pretty much everything

00:56:18.180 that is great about that,

00:56:19.480 that kind of man.

00:56:20.380 And so, uh, you know,

00:56:21.800 that, that would be my,

00:56:22.780 again, I don't think

00:56:23.460 it's a conspiracy.

00:56:24.140 I don't think that like

00:56:25.120 people got together and

00:56:26.300 they're, you know, like,

00:56:27.360 yeah, okay.

00:56:27.920 They wrote the

00:56:28.380 authoritarian personality.

00:56:29.520 Like, obviously there's

00:56:30.520 some, uh, there's some

00:56:31.880 kind of, uh, interaction

00:56:33.620 there, but ultimately I

00:56:35.000 think it was that we

00:56:36.180 moved in a general

00:56:37.440 direction of thinking

00:56:38.540 that pacified populations,

00:56:40.160 uh, Paul, uh,

00:56:41.700 populations that are

00:56:42.360 deracinated, disinvested

00:56:43.940 from their heritage

00:56:44.640 and, uh, the ability

00:56:46.080 to achieve greatness, uh,

00:56:47.700 was the safest way

00:56:48.720 to avoid conflict,

00:56:49.860 was the best way to

00:56:50.760 promote the current

00:56:51.420 global order with

00:56:52.220 these kinds of things.

00:56:52.880 That's why the emergence

00:56:54.040 of Trump was always a

00:56:55.340 red flag for people,

00:56:56.460 right?

00:56:56.720 Like, even if Trump

00:56:57.920 was never the guy, uh,

00:56:59.720 people wanted him to

00:57:00.680 be the guy and, and our

00:57:01.960 elites felt that down in

00:57:03.140 their soul, right?

00:57:03.940 Like they knew it even,

00:57:05.440 even, even if the people

00:57:06.700 who wanted it, couldn't

00:57:08.060 say it out loud, even if

00:57:09.100 Trump didn't really want

00:57:10.580 it, ultimately just the

00:57:12.320 emergence of that force

00:57:14.040 back onto the world stage

00:57:16.180 onto the historical stage

00:57:17.640 was terrifying enough to

00:57:19.240 basically try to blow up

00:57:20.200 the whole system to stop

00:57:21.240 it.

00:57:21.500 Uh, that's why it's so

00:57:22.560 important to, you know,

00:57:23.260 start pairing him with

00:57:24.200 Putin and, you know,

00:57:25.400 Orban and all these 1.00

00:57:26.380 terrible guys who are

00:57:27.760 like actually thinking

00:57:28.580 about the wellbeing of

00:57:29.600 their individual countries

00:57:31.500 instead of, uh, you

00:57:32.800 know, overarching world

00:57:34.140 spanning ideologies.

00:57:35.480 The idea of

00:57:36.460 particularity is pretty

00:57:38.240 much the death knell to

00:57:39.380 liberalism and into some

00:57:41.100 extent, even the American

00:57:42.040 understanding we're

00:57:43.360 terrified of

00:57:44.080 particularity, uh, but

00:57:45.780 it's necessary.

00:57:46.980 The strong gods are

00:57:47.820 coming back either way.

00:57:48.960 I don't think we can

00:57:49.680 avoid it.

00:57:50.200 And so I think all the

00:57:51.500 mature people in the room

00:57:52.540 are really having

00:57:53.120 conversations about how

00:57:54.300 do we, uh, be

00:57:55.380 best interact with this

00:57:57.000 fact in a way that's

00:57:58.180 organic and helpful, uh,

00:58:00.040 and, and, and, and

00:58:00.860 nourishing for the people

00:58:01.880 that we care about and

00:58:03.160 all the people who are

00:58:04.280 deeply invested in the

00:58:05.200 current system are

00:58:05.880 running around screaming,

00:58:06.880 you know, at guys like

00:58:08.480 you, uh, for pointing

00:58:09.560 out that perhaps, you

00:58:10.880 know, uh, there's more

00:58:12.000 to history than this

00:58:13.060 brief window in which

00:58:14.040 we've tried to strip it

00:58:15.500 of all of its, uh, true

00:58:16.920 existential nature.

00:58:20.120 Yeah.

00:58:20.620 You know, this is, uh,

00:58:21.600 maybe a left turn.

00:58:23.100 I don't know how much,

00:58:23.620 how much time we got

00:58:24.580 left, but, um, you

00:58:26.400 know, I also feel that

00:58:27.400 like since the 1960s,

00:58:28.960 we've, uh, this is

00:58:32.340 another parallel with

00:58:33.220 Rome, maybe when like

00:58:34.220 they started importing

00:58:35.120 the ISIS cult to like a 0.97

00:58:36.600 lot of the elites and

00:58:37.460 stuff like late in the,

00:58:38.660 late in their history.

00:58:39.340 But, um, you know,

00:58:41.820 that we, we don't see

00:58:43.380 it that way now, but I

00:58:44.420 think honestly, historians

00:58:45.820 might look back at our

00:58:46.840 music or literature or

00:58:48.340 movies, just all every,

00:58:49.660 all of our cultural

00:58:50.520 output, uh, during this

00:58:52.680 era and realize that

00:58:54.400 since the 1960s, we all

00:58:55.840 kind of fell into a sex

00:58:56.940 cult and, uh, just a

00:58:58.920 cult of, of, of pleasure,

00:59:01.100 you know, and, um, and

00:59:02.320 primarily sex, but just

00:59:03.420 individual pleasure in

00:59:04.660 general.

00:59:05.020 And that became, once you

00:59:06.500 allow like the masses of

00:59:07.740 people to kind of fall into

00:59:09.280 that, um, and you pull,

00:59:11.440 you, you remove the shame

00:59:12.600 that used to, uh, prevent

00:59:14.580 people from falling into it,

00:59:15.960 you delegitimize all of

00:59:18.020 the sources of local

00:59:18.900 authority that might've,

00:59:20.140 you know, held people

00:59:20.720 back from falling into

00:59:21.740 it.

00:59:22.380 Um, it's very, very, very

00:59:23.760 hard for an individual to

00:59:26.220 not join the party.

00:59:27.620 You know what I mean?

00:59:28.260 And so since the 1960s,

00:59:30.260 like that, you know,

00:59:32.080 fulfillment of my

00:59:33.060 individual desires, even

00:59:34.440 so you saw this, even

00:59:35.260 with somebody like, uh,

00:59:36.720 like, um, like Joseph

00:59:38.220 Campbell, you know, Joseph

00:59:39.500 Campbell was like, uh, um,

00:59:43.180 you know, just sort of

00:59:44.060 constitutionally, like he

00:59:45.320 was a conservative

00:59:45.960 person, you know, he

00:59:47.120 was an old school dude.

00:59:48.400 He was an athlete.

00:59:49.360 He, uh, you know, he,

00:59:50.760 he, um, wrote a letter

00:59:52.920 to Nixon, uh, and told

00:59:54.540 him, you know, to tell

00:59:55.320 him he was supporting

00:59:56.620 what he was doing in

00:59:57.460 Vietnam and so forth.

00:59:58.700 And, um, you know, he

01:00:00.000 loves Spangler and, you

01:00:01.160 know, Schmidt, a lot of

01:00:01.940 these old guys, like 1.00

01:00:02.600 naturally a conservative

01:00:03.660 person, but then you have

01:00:05.640 him like in the sixties

01:00:06.640 and seventies, you know,

01:00:07.640 coining that phrase,

01:00:08.500 follow your bliss.

01:00:09.500 Like that, that's the

01:00:10.560 meaning of life right

01:00:11.700 there.

01:00:12.220 And it's like, once you

01:00:13.700 have the large, just

01:00:14.860 really, I mean, almost

01:00:15.960 everybody subscribing to

01:00:18.280 that and it does become a

01:00:19.360 self-fulfilling prophecy,

01:00:20.380 right?

01:00:20.680 Because the people who

01:00:21.480 still want to identify

01:00:22.780 with this larger hole,

01:00:24.200 that hole starts to

01:00:25.820 disintegrate.

01:00:26.400 Like it slips through your

01:00:27.400 fingers, whether you want

01:00:28.240 it to or not.

01:00:28.940 Um, that it becomes like

01:00:31.560 really hard to get people to

01:00:33.560 look up, you know, from

01:00:35.120 their own loins and

01:00:36.280 actually care about

01:00:38.100 anything beyond that,

01:00:39.580 beyond where their next

01:00:40.280 fix is coming from.

01:00:41.700 And, um, and I think

01:00:43.220 that's something, honestly,

01:00:44.160 that, again, I don't know

01:00:45.300 if this is necessarily a

01:00:46.380 conspiracy or if it's just

01:00:47.560 an outgrowth of our

01:00:48.500 ideology or if it's

01:00:50.160 something that happens

01:00:51.120 like, again, not as a

01:00:53.440 conscious conspiracy, but

01:00:54.640 more in like the, you

01:00:55.940 know, the system's purpose

01:00:57.260 is what it does kind of

01:00:58.500 thing, um, that, uh,

01:01:01.660 you know, it does, people

01:01:02.940 have talked about this

01:01:03.760 before, you know, um,

01:01:05.340 sexual liberation as a

01:01:06.660 form of political and

01:01:07.580 social control because,

01:01:08.800 you know, you, uh, people

01:01:11.180 who, who were slaves to

01:01:12.660 their passions and

01:01:13.500 primarily focused on

01:01:14.860 fulfilling those things,

01:01:15.920 um, can be convinced and

01:01:18.140 bought off, you know, to

01:01:19.320 surrender their political

01:01:20.400 agency, you know, as long

01:01:21.940 as they're provided with

01:01:22.700 those things.

01:01:23.600 And, uh, we've really done

01:01:24.940 that en masse.

01:01:25.740 And I think like, you

01:01:26.620 know, the, the

01:01:27.240 difficulty that people

01:01:28.320 like us have now, and

01:01:29.280 this is like, to me, the

01:01:30.220 really interesting

01:01:31.200 conversation, especially

01:01:32.380 in America, I think in

01:01:33.360 Europe, it's a little bit

01:01:34.100 different.

01:01:34.580 I think for the Irish,

01:01:36.500 their, uh, their

01:01:38.380 challenge is how do we

01:01:40.580 reverse the trend, the

01:01:42.920 demographic trend in our

01:01:43.900 country and turn this

01:01:44.740 back into Ireland.

01:01:45.620 Like that's, that's

01:01:47.040 pretty straightforward to

01:01:48.080 me.

01:01:48.680 America, because we've

01:01:49.600 always kind of, you

01:01:51.020 know, our identity's

01:01:51.800 constantly been

01:01:52.540 renegotiated.

01:01:53.420 Like every generation 0.98

01:01:54.640 is new people come in

01:01:55.760 and we have to

01:01:56.220 accommodate them.

01:01:56.920 And we'll need them

01:01:57.800 into the national

01:01:59.220 dough that, um, you

01:02:01.360 know, we're like, for

01:02:02.660 us, like our confusion

01:02:04.500 about our identity is, uh,

01:02:06.540 is, is maybe the most

01:02:08.020 natural thing about us,

01:02:09.160 you know?

01:02:09.420 And so the fact that all

01:02:10.900 of those things that

01:02:11.900 would have been, would

01:02:13.080 have provided the bedrock

01:02:14.220 for that national

01:02:14.960 identity have kind of

01:02:15.840 been swept off the board.

01:02:18.160 You know, I think it

01:02:19.160 means that like a lot of,

01:02:21.660 a lot of people on the

01:02:22.500 right, you know, we love

01:02:24.060 our Greek statues and our

01:02:25.500 Nietzsche quotes and all

01:02:26.420 these kinds of things.

01:02:27.060 They want to look back

01:02:28.160 to the past as, you

01:02:30.580 know, to find something

01:02:31.600 that we need to revive,

01:02:32.820 you know, return with a

01:02:33.840 V and, you know, um, and

01:02:35.740 all that.

01:02:36.360 But, um, and I'm

01:02:37.800 sympathetic to that, but

01:02:38.800 at the same time, I kind

01:02:40.060 of doubt that that's

01:02:42.200 really possible.

01:02:42.820 And then our real

01:02:43.660 challenge is much more

01:02:44.700 difficult because we have

01:02:45.860 to figure out how to

01:02:47.720 build something from

01:02:48.400 scratch and what that

01:02:49.640 should look like.

01:02:50.120 It doesn't mean we can't

01:02:50.900 learn from the past or

01:02:51.740 take bits of our

01:02:52.320 tradition from the past.

01:02:53.820 Um, but we have to

01:02:55.220 admit the fact, you know,

01:02:56.400 just, we have to admit

01:02:57.440 the, uh, the really

01:02:58.880 terrible, terrible state

01:03:00.300 that our people are in,

01:03:01.420 you know?

01:03:02.600 Um, I mean, our people

01:03:03.660 are, you could say

01:03:06.640 America is a Christian 0.99

01:03:07.440 country and there's a lot

01:03:08.400 of practicing Christians.

01:03:09.680 I know a lot of people

01:03:11.320 who go to church and I

01:03:12.280 don't know a lot of

01:03:12.960 people who really

01:03:13.660 believe in Christianity

01:03:14.580 anymore.

01:03:15.420 I don't know a lot of

01:03:16.540 people who really are

01:03:18.620 loyal to their families

01:03:19.960 or their communities or

01:03:21.100 anything like that

01:03:21.940 anymore.

01:03:22.840 Um, in a way that like

01:03:24.540 it's a basic governing

01:03:25.460 principle of their life,

01:03:26.840 you know what I mean?

01:03:27.420 And, um, and so when

01:03:29.480 you don't have like all

01:03:30.560 of those basic

01:03:31.320 fundamental things that,

01:03:32.540 you know, you're

01:03:33.100 talking, you're trying to

01:03:33.700 talk about how do we

01:03:34.500 keep this country

01:03:35.200 together?

01:03:35.540 How do we tie like

01:03:36.740 citizen to citizen?

01:03:38.320 You, you, we got to go

01:03:39.380 back and start figuring

01:03:40.460 out how to tie

01:03:41.220 neighbor to neighbor

01:03:42.160 again, how to tie

01:03:43.100 brother to brother

01:03:44.160 again.

01:03:44.420 I mean, that's where

01:03:45.020 we're at, you know?

01:03:46.520 And, um, and that is,

01:03:48.360 you know, and I think

01:03:49.220 honestly, like one of the

01:03:50.220 reasons we avoid that,

01:03:52.360 I don't know if we

01:03:52.920 necessarily avoid it,

01:03:53.660 but like that it doesn't

01:03:54.820 get talked about as, as

01:03:55.900 much is that, um, you

01:03:59.320 know, you can talk about

01:04:00.500 whether America is going

01:04:01.780 to balkanize or we can

01:04:02.920 find some collective

01:04:03.960 national identity to hold

01:04:05.620 us together or whatever.

01:04:06.460 Or, and that's, you can

01:04:07.900 write a book about it and

01:04:08.980 whatever, but that's not

01:04:10.560 something that there's no

01:04:11.620 barricades demand over

01:04:12.700 that.

01:04:13.220 You don't have to

01:04:13.720 actually get up early and

01:04:14.940 go do something over that. 0.94

01:04:16.720 It's really like a

01:04:17.540 theoretical conversation

01:04:18.760 that we're having.

01:04:19.440 And if it's going to

01:04:20.480 change, it'll be because

01:04:21.760 like the national mood or

01:04:23.480 just the mood of our

01:04:24.140 people changes over time

01:04:25.680 and like, you know,

01:04:26.340 things change as a result

01:04:27.300 of that.

01:04:27.700 But, but, you know, to,

01:04:29.540 to knit our communities

01:04:31.460 and our families and

01:04:32.480 everything like that

01:04:33.140 together again, you know,

01:04:35.080 it means you have to

01:04:35.900 skip, uh, playing video

01:04:37.760 games today because, you

01:04:39.000 know, you're going to go

01:04:39.640 hang out with your

01:04:40.280 neighbor who's kind of

01:04:41.120 boring and like, you

01:04:42.260 know, annoying, but he's

01:04:43.440 your neighbor and, uh,

01:04:45.020 his wife is friends with

01:04:46.140 your wife and your kids

01:04:47.340 are friends with their

01:04:47.980 kids.

01:04:48.280 So you're going to go

01:04:48.700 hang out with them, you

01:04:49.520 know, and just doing those

01:04:51.020 things that you have to

01:04:52.280 actually go out and do

01:04:53.560 instead of just talk

01:04:54.380 about, um, you know,

01:04:56.020 once we kind of admit,

01:04:57.120 uh, admit those needs,

01:04:59.500 I think that we know

01:05:00.620 that it, you know, it's

01:05:01.600 going to, it's going to

01:05:02.140 impose an obligation on

01:05:03.320 us to actually leave our

01:05:04.300 house.

01:05:05.520 Well, you know,

01:05:06.280 civilization is

01:05:07.480 indistinguishable, but,

01:05:09.040 uh, from like a

01:05:10.600 collection of low time

01:05:12.260 preference behaviors,

01:05:13.240 right?

01:05:13.640 Like you can, we could

01:05:15.460 start with, you know,

01:05:16.340 someone modern like Sam

01:05:17.640 Francis, but you can just

01:05:18.660 go right back to

01:05:19.460 Aristotle, right?

01:05:20.400 That like virtue is what

01:05:22.420 creates a civilization.

01:05:24.300 It's the ability of one

01:05:25.440 to disciplines oneself.

01:05:27.120 You know, to have a

01:05:28.200 shared understanding of

01:05:29.740 kind of what the

01:05:30.780 restrictions on behavior

01:05:31.940 should be and that

01:05:33.180 they're critical for the

01:05:34.940 perpetuation of your way

01:05:36.600 of life.

01:05:37.680 Like this is, we, we

01:05:39.120 look at, uh, kind of our

01:05:41.300 high functioning societies

01:05:42.420 now, and we think that

01:05:44.180 these things are just

01:05:45.180 kind of the way that

01:05:46.400 humans work, but of 1.00

01:05:47.380 course that's not right.

01:05:48.160 Like there's a million,

01:05:49.500 uh, civilizations in the

01:05:50.940 waste bin of history where

01:05:52.340 people just did what they

01:05:53.980 wanted to do, right?

01:05:54.960 They, or they, they, they,

01:05:56.000 they didn't put a

01:05:57.200 sufficient, uh, value on,

01:05:59.220 uh, you know, planning for

01:06:00.280 the future, denying

01:06:01.220 themselves, you know,

01:06:02.580 creating virtue.

01:06:03.760 Uh, there, there are so

01:06:04.720 many examples we can't

01:06:06.120 even begin to discuss

01:06:07.220 them now.

01:06:07.660 Right.

01:06:08.300 So, uh, what we're

01:06:09.860 looking at, I think is

01:06:11.080 just, uh, again, I think

01:06:12.540 Spengler's right.

01:06:13.220 I think civilizations have

01:06:14.300 a morphological life

01:06:15.320 cycle.

01:06:15.780 I think that entropy

01:06:17.080 acts on every collective

01:06:19.540 force of organization and

01:06:21.260 that ultimately the things

01:06:23.020 that we build up that

01:06:24.160 create great success also

01:06:25.760 get torn apart over time,

01:06:28.000 you know, being kind of

01:06:29.660 victims of their own

01:06:30.660 success.

01:06:31.460 And again, as we've kind

01:06:33.160 of discussed already, uh,

01:06:34.640 not only does entropy

01:06:35.740 wear on these things, but

01:06:37.180 the desire to modernize

01:06:38.640 and scale up is actually

01:06:40.340 pretty dependent heavily

01:06:42.140 on the annihilation of

01:06:43.400 virtue.

01:06:43.980 Uh, even though we kind of

01:06:45.260 don't recognize that

01:06:46.380 beyond a certain point,

01:06:47.420 we need to strip virtue

01:06:48.600 out of a population in

01:06:50.360 order to expand the

01:06:51.340 state's control and its

01:06:52.400 reach and the ability to

01:06:53.480 order that because again,

01:06:54.780 virtue is particular and

01:06:56.940 people are not going to

01:06:57.600 like me saying that, but

01:06:58.880 whatever, like that's the,

01:07:00.520 you know, uh, cultural

01:07:02.340 da signs are particular to

01:07:04.040 people's virtues are built

01:07:06.140 in communities.

01:07:07.080 Aristotle understood this

01:07:08.220 as well as Heidegger did

01:07:09.760 that you create, uh,

01:07:12.400 expectations and norms

01:07:14.020 that bind people together

01:07:15.500 because they live in

01:07:16.780 proximity to each other

01:07:18.260 because they recognize

01:07:19.280 within each other the

01:07:21.020 attainment of a particular

01:07:22.440 ideal.

01:07:23.540 And that's what drives

01:07:24.460 those in a community to

01:07:25.760 kind of maintain it over

01:07:27.100 time.

01:07:27.520 And once you've gotten

01:07:29.180 beyond the ability of the

01:07:30.720 community to constantly

01:07:31.920 communicate and enforce

01:07:34.240 that expectation, it's

01:07:36.040 going to atrophy.

01:07:37.200 It has to.

01:07:38.120 And so I think in a very

01:07:39.480 real sense, we can't bind

01:07:41.180 our communities back

01:07:41.860 together because we've

01:07:42.920 literally made it illegal.

01:07:44.700 Uh, it's illegal to have

01:07:46.200 real communities in the

01:07:47.260 United States because

01:07:48.420 those are dangerous to

01:07:49.880 the, I, you know, not

01:07:51.640 the, the overall imperial

01:07:53.340 identity project, right?

01:07:54.820 You can't have people who

01:07:56.420 feel specifically

01:07:57.600 Virginian because one day

01:07:58.940 they might lead a force of

01:08:00.680 Virginians against the 1.00

01:08:02.060 union, right?

01:08:02.760 Like that's, that, that's

01:08:03.920 a real problem that states

01:08:05.520 face when you have that

01:08:07.120 level of community loyalty.

01:08:08.740 And so I think we kind

01:08:10.280 of got to the natural

01:08:11.320 end of, you know,

01:08:12.340 extracting identity to

01:08:13.920 the point where we can

01:08:14.680 operate at vast scale.

01:08:16.520 But once you get there,

01:08:17.680 you recognize that, yes,

01:08:19.040 you've created, you know,

01:08:20.180 like you said, the hollow

01:08:21.220 egg or it's the Jenga

01:08:22.220 tower that we've knocked

01:08:23.280 every support, you know,

01:08:24.640 structure out of.

01:08:25.400 Yes, we built a much

01:08:26.420 higher tower of Babel, but

01:08:28.100 now we have nothing to

01:08:29.240 hold it up.

01:08:30.200 Uh, and so you're right

01:08:31.280 that ultimately we have to

01:08:32.900 find ways to bind back

01:08:34.280 together, but I don't

01:08:35.680 think we can do that in

01:08:36.860 any very abstract sense.

01:08:38.900 I think the only way

01:08:39.500 that that happens is

01:08:40.320 getting back in the room.

01:08:41.260 And I think in a way

01:08:42.680 we're at this point where

01:08:44.060 we're selecting for

01:08:45.040 something different,

01:08:45.680 right?

01:08:45.940 Like we, we were kind

01:08:47.060 of selecting for

01:08:48.080 abundance, selecting for

01:08:49.840 the ability to generate

01:08:50.960 stable calorie counts and

01:08:52.500 produce X amount of

01:08:54.380 cheap energy.

01:08:55.160 But now we're going to be

01:08:56.220 selecting for denial,

01:08:57.580 right?

01:08:58.020 Can you not hand your

01:08:58.920 kid the iPad?

01:08:59.740 Are you willing to move

01:09:01.180 across the country to an

01:09:02.220 intentional community to

01:09:03.620 live next to somebody

01:09:04.840 who's going to pray the

01:09:05.720 same way you do?

01:09:06.860 Are you willing to be

01:09:08.540 called a racist or to be

01:09:10.340 called a bigot so that

01:09:11.820 you can raise your child

01:09:13.240 in a specific way,

01:09:15.160 right?

01:09:15.460 Like you, you look at

01:09:16.600 the, uh, the Afrikaners in

01:09:19.220 South Africa, right?

01:09:20.440 Most of them just don't

01:09:21.920 want their language

01:09:22.660 annihilated.

01:09:23.340 They don't want their

01:09:23.780 culture annihilated and

01:09:25.500 they get called all kinds

01:09:26.360 of horrible names, but

01:09:27.600 they'd have to eventually

01:09:28.620 not care.

01:09:29.240 And they have to take on

01:09:30.540 their own responsibilities

01:09:31.720 of, you know, safety,

01:09:33.640 water purification,

01:09:35.000 education, all the things

01:09:36.380 the state used to do if

01:09:37.820 they want to maintain

01:09:38.400 their identity.

01:09:39.000 And those are the only

01:09:39.900 options they really have.

01:09:41.260 So ultimately I think that

01:09:42.740 those solutions get, you

01:09:44.620 know, they, they come

01:09:45.320 lower down the chain.

01:09:47.480 I don't, I don't know

01:09:48.200 that we're going to get a,

01:09:49.220 you know, empire or even

01:09:51.340 a countrywide revival of

01:09:53.480 that kind of virtue, but I

01:09:55.420 think you can build it in

01:09:56.900 specific communities.

01:09:57.920 I think you can form

01:09:58.980 communities that have that

01:10:00.200 shared vision and

01:10:01.280 understanding.

01:10:02.440 And I think we're starting

01:10:02.980 to see some of that.

01:10:03.860 I think you can see people

01:10:04.720 selecting for the ability

01:10:06.480 to deny themselves certain

01:10:08.520 things that are poisonous to

01:10:11.020 their human identity.

01:10:11.880 And that's really going to be

01:10:13.100 critical moving forward for

01:10:14.400 people who are going to kind

01:10:15.320 of transcend this post

01:10:16.760 national moment.

01:10:19.540 Yeah.

01:10:19.980 And there's also, you know,

01:10:21.100 the, um, was it Ben

01:10:22.880 Franklin or I think said that

01:10:25.020 after a few days, visitors

01:10:27.480 like fish after a few days

01:10:29.000 start to stink or something.

01:10:30.120 Right.

01:10:30.420 And, you know, that's

01:10:31.040 something everybody kind of

01:10:32.360 understands instinctively

01:10:33.640 because you could have like

01:10:34.660 your siblings or your best

01:10:36.420 friends over to your house

01:10:38.180 to stay with you for a while.

01:10:40.900 And it doesn't matter how

01:10:42.060 much you love those people.

01:10:43.860 There's going to, if they're

01:10:45.160 there for like past a certain

01:10:46.720 point, you're going to be

01:10:47.720 relieved when they're gone.

01:10:48.920 And it's not because you love

01:10:50.000 them any less or you like

01:10:51.060 them in anything like that.

01:10:52.480 It's that the people who live

01:10:53.720 in the house with you,

01:10:54.500 you guys have a rapport

01:10:56.360 that's been built up over

01:10:57.340 years that I don't have to

01:10:58.840 explain everything that I

01:11:00.800 mean to you.

01:11:01.420 You already know.

01:11:02.260 I don't have to like, you

01:11:04.220 know, avoid certain ways of

01:11:05.920 putting things because like

01:11:07.300 you don't, you're not in on

01:11:08.300 the joke or whatever.

01:11:09.320 There's just, um, all of

01:11:10.880 these unspoken customs in a

01:11:12.760 household that even your

01:11:14.040 best friends are not really a

01:11:15.240 part of.

01:11:15.640 And so, um, you have to sort

01:11:17.360 of be on more and sort of

01:11:19.240 like, you know, just you have

01:11:20.460 to be on when anybody is, is

01:11:22.260 visiting you in a way that

01:11:23.620 you don't when it's just

01:11:24.560 there with your, with your

01:11:25.440 family.

01:11:26.220 And that, but, you know, you

01:11:27.480 can take that and do it at

01:11:29.480 each kind of concentric

01:11:30.620 layer.

01:11:31.060 You know, you should be that

01:11:31.980 way with your community.

01:11:32.920 You're in your community and

01:11:34.580 yeah, not quite the same

01:11:35.600 level as like my household,

01:11:37.120 but I know these people and

01:11:38.840 they know me.

01:11:39.420 Like, because even if I don't

01:11:40.960 know that particular person,

01:11:42.320 like personally, like I go

01:11:44.120 visit their house by being in

01:11:45.740 the same community, like

01:11:46.740 there's just certain things

01:11:47.700 that we understand about each

01:11:49.040 other and like all that,

01:11:50.220 that, and then you can do

01:11:51.660 that all the way up to like

01:11:52.860 a national level.

01:11:53.780 I mean, it's like a

01:11:54.400 challenge maybe, but, um,

01:11:57.120 but I think you can do it.

01:11:58.200 I mean, you go to an, I go

01:11:59.180 to, you know, England or

01:12:00.260 something and I'm, I feel

01:12:01.500 good when I get back off the

01:12:02.680 plane in the United States,

01:12:03.860 you know what I mean?

01:12:04.980 And, uh, um, you know,

01:12:07.800 that that's the very thing

01:12:08.980 that I think is kind of

01:12:09.860 broken down at every level so

01:12:11.520 that people don't really feel

01:12:12.760 that level of comfort, even

01:12:13.860 in their own households, you

01:12:15.180 know, because everybody's

01:12:15.840 kind of an individual doing

01:12:16.920 their own thing, even

01:12:17.800 within the family, let

01:12:19.300 alone in communities or

01:12:20.440 larger collectivities,

01:12:21.480 everybody kind of, you

01:12:22.720 know, they feel like it's

01:12:23.660 exhausting just to be in

01:12:24.820 the world because you have

01:12:25.700 to be on all the time

01:12:26.920 because everybody is this

01:12:28.040 sort of, you know, uh,

01:12:29.820 half recognized, half

01:12:31.120 familiar other individuals

01:12:32.760 doing their thing that you

01:12:33.720 have to sort of adapt to.

01:12:35.080 And, um, you know, I think

01:12:37.960 we all want to live among

01:12:39.680 our people, you know, and

01:12:41.420 that what that means, you

01:12:43.820 know, can vary from place

01:12:44.960 to place.

01:12:45.520 Um, but everybody wants

01:12:47.100 to live among their

01:12:48.080 people.

01:12:48.880 And, uh, when people

01:12:50.080 don't, um, I mean, even

01:12:52.860 if you have like, you

01:12:53.740 know, traditional, like

01:12:54.420 immigrant groups or

01:12:55.560 nomadic groups or whatever,

01:12:57.060 like within a larger, uh,

01:12:59.520 polity that doesn't belong

01:13:00.720 to them, they stick together

01:13:02.000 because they want to be

01:13:02.700 among their people.

01:13:03.360 You know, it's just, it's,

01:13:04.660 it's very natural because

01:13:06.000 of the, just of the

01:13:08.360 mental and emotional work

01:13:10.600 that has to, you know,

01:13:11.620 that goes into having to be

01:13:12.740 around people who aren't.

01:13:14.280 Um, and so, yeah, I mean,

01:13:16.220 we have to reconstruct

01:13:17.160 those things, but I do

01:13:18.260 think we're, I do think

01:13:20.020 we're really like starting

01:13:21.100 from scratch.

01:13:21.560 And I like the idea of

01:13:22.640 like what you, what you

01:13:23.880 said about denial, because

01:13:25.220 I mean, that is going to

01:13:26.000 be, you know, I, you

01:13:29.240 know, you think about

01:13:29.920 like the difficulties of

01:13:32.040 raising like a kid today

01:13:33.680 in school when you can

01:13:35.300 protect them, like all

01:13:37.040 you want, you know, you

01:13:38.100 don't want to, every

01:13:39.100 parent, you don't want to

01:13:39.900 be too protective because

01:13:41.180 they'll come out weird or

01:13:42.360 they'll, you know, whatever

01:13:43.040 it is, but you can try to

01:13:44.560 protect them.

01:13:45.300 But little Johnny brings

01:13:46.540 his smartphone to school

01:13:47.540 and now you're telling

01:13:48.320 your six-year-old, you

01:13:49.280 have to answer the

01:13:50.520 question of like, you

01:13:51.840 know, what some horrific

01:13:53.620 sexual perversion is 0.60

01:13:55.280 because little Johnny

01:13:55.980 brought his phone to

01:13:56.700 school.

01:13:57.160 And so, you know, finding

01:13:58.680 other people who are not

01:14:00.340 going to give little

01:14:01.800 Johnny a smartphone to

01:14:03.020 come show your kid and

01:14:04.080 knowing, you know, that

01:14:04.880 you can trust those

01:14:05.500 people in that sense, it's

01:14:06.980 going to become more and

01:14:07.680 more important.

01:14:09.260 Yeah.

01:14:09.460 Can I send my kid to a

01:14:11.460 friend's house to an

01:14:12.340 neighbor's house for a

01:14:13.080 sleepover without having

01:14:14.500 their entire world

01:14:15.240 destroyed?

01:14:15.760 That increasingly is

01:14:16.940 impossible and you have

01:14:19.040 to find a way to make it

01:14:19.860 possible.

01:14:20.360 Literally, the future

01:14:21.140 depends on it.

01:14:22.460 And so we could try

01:14:24.200 large-scale, you know,

01:14:25.680 Luddite, you know,

01:14:27.260 action.

01:14:27.860 We could try a high

01:14:29.040 degree of government

01:14:30.480 regulation.

01:14:31.420 But ultimately, what's

01:14:32.780 going to solve this

01:14:33.460 problem is actual

01:14:35.460 organic human structures.

01:14:37.880 That's the only thing

01:14:38.780 that ever has and it's the

01:14:39.940 only thing that ever can.

01:14:42.360 And so I really do think

01:14:44.360 that is going to be the

01:14:45.260 challenge moving forward.

01:14:47.640 That said, we could

01:14:48.820 literally do this for

01:14:50.180 several hours.

01:14:50.880 In fact, we've suggested

01:14:51.800 doing a part two over on

01:14:54.080 your side.

01:14:54.720 So maybe we will do this

01:14:55.680 for a few more hours.

01:14:56.820 But we have stacked up a

01:14:58.040 large amount of super

01:14:59.280 chats.

01:14:59.640 I know you've got stuff

01:15:00.420 going on so you can hang

01:15:02.140 around for as short or

01:15:04.040 long as you are able.

01:15:05.200 But we should probably

01:15:06.000 shuffle over that

01:15:07.320 direction.

01:15:08.740 Do you want anybody to

01:15:10.020 check out?

01:15:10.500 I know you've got a new

01:15:10.960 series coming out, all

01:15:11.720 kinds of stuff.

01:15:12.340 Where should people go to

01:15:13.340 listen to what you're

01:15:14.340 doing, what you're writing,

01:15:15.260 what you're talking about

01:15:16.040 before we move to the

01:15:16.820 questions?

01:15:17.520 Yeah, the podcast is

01:15:18.620 Martyr Made. 0.89

01:15:19.740 The new series is called

01:15:21.460 Enemy, the Germans War. 0.60

01:15:23.660 The part one is out now.

01:15:25.700 Part two will be along.

01:15:27.940 Hopefully by the I think

01:15:28.800 by the end of this month,

01:15:29.740 part two will be out.

01:15:30.660 So I've got the sub stack,

01:15:32.580 which you can find at

01:15:33.340 subscribe.martyrmade.com.

01:15:35.940 Um, basically like the

01:15:38.600 way I try to use the

01:15:39.520 sub stack is, you know,

01:15:40.980 there's a lot of stuff

01:15:41.760 that goes into every

01:15:42.720 episode that I'm

01:15:43.460 researching for the

01:15:44.180 regular podcast that

01:15:45.380 either doesn't make it

01:15:46.640 into the show or it's

01:15:47.560 too detailed or kind of

01:15:48.900 a tangent that would

01:15:50.160 take me too far off the

01:15:51.540 narrative that I want to

01:15:52.560 explore in the show, but

01:15:54.040 it's interesting

01:15:54.520 information.

01:15:55.040 And so, um, I use the

01:15:56.820 sub stack for that, you

01:15:57.820 know, to kind of think

01:15:58.620 out loud and also, um,

01:16:01.080 you know, just interact

01:16:02.200 with, uh, my subscribers

01:16:03.600 and, and I, you know, I

01:16:04.500 learn a lot from my, my

01:16:05.620 subscribers actually, you

01:16:06.940 know, I just wrote, I

01:16:07.660 just, the last thing I

01:16:08.640 did was I put up a 17

01:16:09.980 page essay on, uh, how

01:16:13.180 this first world war led

01:16:14.500 to the second world war.

01:16:16.140 And, um, that's the

01:16:17.420 kind of thing that I do

01:16:18.080 there.

01:16:18.600 Um, I, I provide like

01:16:19.740 audio versions for

01:16:20.620 everything.

01:16:20.900 And I also do like

01:16:21.960 subscribers only podcasts

01:16:23.220 and stuff, but anyway,

01:16:24.480 uh, yeah, let's do the

01:16:25.180 super jets.

01:16:26.460 Absolutely.

01:16:27.120 Uh, heading over to

01:16:28.660 Gabby of Lindbergh says,

01:16:30.460 uh, old glory club,

01:16:31.620 New York city come, uh,

01:16:33.720 PS love both of your

01:16:35.240 content.

01:16:35.940 Yeah.

01:16:36.360 If you have not, uh,

01:16:37.480 checked out the old glory

01:16:38.480 club, they are doing

01:16:39.380 excellent work.

01:16:40.320 You should definitely do

01:16:41.180 so.

01:16:42.300 Robert Winesfield here

01:16:43.340 says, Martyrmead, what

01:16:44.320 is your take in response

01:16:45.860 to great Connelly's

01:16:46.940 critique?

01:16:49.220 I'm not sure what he's

01:16:50.320 talking about.

01:16:50.920 So I'm going to assume

01:16:52.800 he's talking about

01:16:53.800 gray's, uh, critique of

01:16:55.760 my position on Churchill.

01:16:57.220 Um, now gray's an

01:16:59.460 awesome dude.

01:17:00.080 He's an Australian

01:17:00.920 barrister, Navy veteran

01:17:02.720 officer, um, super

01:17:05.100 smart and very much

01:17:06.460 like, um, he's an old

01:17:08.660 school, like Commonwealth

01:17:09.720 guy.

01:17:10.200 I mean, he's like glory

01:17:11.260 of the British empire,

01:17:12.220 like in heart and soul,

01:17:13.620 you know, and, but he's

01:17:14.940 a friend of mine.

01:17:15.500 And so he didn't freak

01:17:16.440 out when I said what I

01:17:17.380 said, and, uh, we've

01:17:18.480 talked about it before.

01:17:19.640 Uh, but his critique was

01:17:21.020 interesting because he

01:17:21.840 knows about as much

01:17:22.760 about that period from

01:17:23.760 the British and

01:17:24.440 Commonwealth

01:17:24.820 perspective as anybody

01:17:25.960 I know.

01:17:26.520 And he didn't actually

01:17:28.260 criticize any of the

01:17:30.580 points that I made with

01:17:31.760 the exception of whether

01:17:33.260 Churchill personally

01:17:34.440 should be held

01:17:35.700 responsible for any of

01:17:36.820 the decisions that were

01:17:37.560 made because his, in

01:17:38.480 his point was that

01:17:39.520 Churchill could have

01:17:40.620 gotten hit by a bus.

01:17:41.500 The next guy, it

01:17:42.140 didn't matter who it

01:17:42.740 was.

01:17:42.980 If somehow Neville

01:17:44.260 Chamberlain could have

01:17:45.180 been compelled to stay

01:17:46.240 in office and stay alive,

01:17:47.600 he would have done the

01:17:48.340 same things.

01:17:48.860 Like that's where

01:17:49.660 British policy was at

01:17:50.840 the time.

01:17:51.980 Churchill was in favor

01:17:53.900 of that policy.

01:17:54.760 That's why he was put

01:17:55.580 in there.

01:17:55.960 But if he wasn't, it

01:17:57.040 wouldn't have changed

01:17:57.660 anything.

01:17:58.020 And so it's hard to

01:17:58.900 hold him so personally

01:17:59.940 responsible.

01:18:00.760 And that's a well-taken

01:18:01.780 critique.

01:18:04.320 Uh, Jose Velasquez says

01:18:06.060 unrelated.

01:18:06.880 Would love to hear

01:18:07.340 Daryl's thoughts on

01:18:08.160 Aronofsky's The

01:18:08.980 Fountain.

01:18:09.440 One of my favorites,

01:18:10.440 eight hour series about

01:18:11.420 it.

01:18:11.860 When?

01:18:12.680 Yeah, it's been a long

01:18:13.560 time since I've seen

01:18:14.240 that movie.

01:18:14.740 Are you a fan of, oh,

01:18:15.740 well, there you go.

01:18:17.700 Have you seen it before?

01:18:19.740 Yep.

01:18:20.200 I love that movie.

01:18:21.120 It's one of my

01:18:21.620 favorites.

01:18:22.040 Um, I just watched it

01:18:24.020 with my mom not too

01:18:25.640 long ago.

01:18:26.600 Uh, it's a beautiful

01:18:28.020 film.

01:18:28.540 Yeah, I really love

01:18:29.500 it.

01:18:29.820 I don't, I, if I start

01:18:31.400 talking about it, we'll

01:18:32.080 be here for a long

01:18:32.600 time, but I can write

01:18:33.740 about it if he wants me

01:18:34.580 to.

01:18:34.960 We need to put you on,

01:18:36.080 uh, my buddy last

01:18:37.100 things podcast.

01:18:37.940 He does one every year.

01:18:39.400 He does a film festival

01:18:40.600 of kind of a sorted

01:18:41.840 right wing, uh, uh,

01:18:43.520 content creators.

01:18:44.320 So we'll have to book

01:18:45.880 you there next year

01:18:46.520 with the fountain.

01:18:47.700 Sounds good.

01:18:49.380 Atraxia says long

01:18:50.480 time listener.

01:18:51.160 First time watching

01:18:52.060 live.

01:18:52.380 I at least recently

01:18:53.160 that an article from

01:18:54.300 Ryan, uh, McMakin on

01:18:56.700 LRC, uh, referring,

01:18:58.440 uh, dissolution of the

01:18:59.820 U S citizenship. 0.98

01:19:01.060 It would appear to, uh,

01:19:02.720 to this student of

01:19:03.640 history that this would

01:19:04.800 be an, uh, amazing in

01:19:06.440 terms of freedom.

01:19:10.360 Sure.

01:19:10.820 I quite picked up the

01:19:11.520 question there.

01:19:12.160 Did you?

01:19:12.480 Um, I don't know who

01:19:14.720 Ryan is or what LRC

01:19:16.860 is.

01:19:18.120 Um, I would just say

01:19:19.980 that I do not think

01:19:21.060 dissolution of citizenship,

01:19:22.440 uh, would benefit,

01:19:25.400 would benefit anybody.

01:19:26.980 Um, I think, you know,

01:19:28.840 I mean, like we've sort

01:19:31.080 of done that to a degree

01:19:32.400 already just by, you

01:19:34.680 know, devaluing it to the

01:19:36.240 point that we have.

01:19:37.120 I mean, Tripp literally

01:19:38.220 announced that we're going

01:19:38.900 to be selling it.

01:19:39.700 Right.

01:19:39.920 And you got, you got a

01:19:40.680 gold membership now.

01:19:42.120 Yeah.

01:19:42.560 We'll get it right.

01:19:43.380 Yeah.

01:19:43.560 Like, it's just, um, you

01:19:45.260 know, it's not something

01:19:46.160 that you, uh, that you,

01:19:48.860 that you work to earn and

01:19:50.340 deserve every day as a

01:19:51.820 member of a common, you

01:19:53.500 know, uh, political and

01:19:54.720 social, uh, project.

01:19:56.240 It's just sort of something

01:19:57.540 that is given to you like a

01:19:59.520 merit badge when you show

01:20:00.760 up on American soil.

01:20:01.860 Like, I think that everybody

01:20:03.060 suffers from that, you know,

01:20:04.320 including the people who do

01:20:05.560 immigrate here and become 1.00

01:20:07.060 naturalized citizens.

01:20:08.140 You know, everybody wants,

01:20:09.740 uh, their citizenship to

01:20:11.660 really mean something, you

01:20:13.100 know, and, and it should be

01:20:14.180 something that, and to, you

01:20:16.400 know, actually to, to Rome's

01:20:18.000 credit, I mean, that's one

01:20:19.340 thing you could say is you

01:20:20.440 go, you know, even up into

01:20:21.660 the Imperial period, um, people

01:20:24.120 who were Roman citizens, you

01:20:25.440 know, in Syria or something

01:20:26.600 like that, they wore that on

01:20:27.620 their sleeve.

01:20:28.140 They were very proud of the

01:20:29.080 fact that they were Roman

01:20:29.920 citizens, you know?

01:20:30.840 So, and that's something

01:20:31.960 that, uh, we've really, I

01:20:34.660 mean, we've kind of really

01:20:35.900 lost even that, you know?

01:20:38.260 Well, it's, it's, uh, you

01:20:39.880 know, having lived in, uh,

01:20:41.460 South Florida, most of my

01:20:43.080 life, I'm pretty familiar with

01:20:44.620 a large amount of, uh, you

01:20:45.940 know, immigration and people

01:20:47.360 who've come in.

01:20:47.980 And my experience is basically

01:20:49.640 every immigrant wants to be 1.00

01:20:50.960 the last immigrant. 0.85

01:20:52.400 Uh, you know, like they, they

01:20:53.580 all want to join the thing and

01:20:54.980 then they don't want anyone

01:20:55.740 else.

01:20:56.100 You know, that's why when

01:20:56.800 people were shocked that so

01:20:58.100 many Hispanic men voted for

01:20:59.360 Trump, even though he just

01:21:00.260 pushed for, you know,

01:21:01.560 closing the border and

01:21:02.400 deportation, I was like,

01:21:03.300 well, yeah, of course they

01:21:04.080 did.

01:21:04.320 Cause like they actually want

01:21:05.660 to be a part of the United

01:21:06.640 States, like as it is, they,

01:21:08.460 you know, so I think that's a,

01:21:10.340 that's a pretty common, uh,

01:21:11.580 thing actually.

01:21:13.160 Uh, philosophical thirst

01:21:14.520 worm says it's hard to sell

01:21:15.960 the disastrous American 0.93

01:21:17.020 following policy.

01:21:17.880 If you can't harken back to

01:21:19.280 the Graham brothers, scary

01:21:20.460 story about the boogeyman

01:21:22.140 that is world war two.

01:21:23.760 Yeah.

01:21:23.980 And I think we kind of

01:21:24.960 covered that, but that, that

01:21:26.140 is generally one of the huge

01:21:27.880 problems with that, uh,

01:21:29.560 period being this

01:21:30.760 untouchable, uh, uh, kind

01:21:32.820 of, uh, narrative inside is

01:21:34.760 that we, we get completely

01:21:36.700 perverted and thrown out

01:21:37.900 every time someone wants to

01:21:38.960 go to war.

01:21:39.340 Saddam Hussein is going to 0.99

01:21:40.380 conquer the entire Middle 1.00

01:21:41.360 East, Vladimir Putin.

01:21:42.820 He's losing to Ukraine, but

01:21:44.220 also he could be in Spain by

01:21:45.900 next week.

01:21:46.420 If we don't send every

01:21:47.380 dollar, uh, you know, defy

01:21:49.040 it, like these things can't

01:21:50.260 be true.

01:21:50.720 And yet we continue to repeat

01:21:52.000 them because everyone is

01:21:53.000 Hitler and everyone is going 1.00

01:21:54.520 to be marching through the

01:21:55.760 entirety of Western Europe.

01:21:57.060 If we, you know, don't let

01:21:58.520 them work out their political

01:22:00.220 differences inside different

01:22:01.460 spheres, I guess.

01:22:02.940 Yeah.

01:22:03.380 I'll just defend the brothers

01:22:04.960 grim here because they were 0.99

01:22:06.340 very strong, focused German

01:22:07.860 nationalists.

01:22:08.720 So there you go.

01:22:10.300 Easy, easy.

01:22:11.700 Uh, uh, we'll, uh, skip the

01:22:13.980 name there.

01:22:14.400 Thank you, sir.

01:22:14.960 A long time listener.

01:22:16.000 First time super chatting.

01:22:17.220 You show is the best part of

01:22:18.500 my workday.

01:22:19.180 I think, uh, I think an

01:22:20.760 interesting topic, if you

01:22:21.780 haven't yet would be exploring

01:22:23.100 why June X overwhelmingly voted

01:22:25.060 for Trump.

01:22:27.080 Well, thank you very much.

01:22:28.040 And yeah, that is interesting.

01:22:29.260 You know, I, um, I've seen a

01:22:31.660 lot of surveys saying that

01:22:32.520 actually, uh, the youngest

01:22:33.720 voters as well, uh, you know,

01:22:35.620 really like that 18 to, uh,

01:22:37.740 kind of 27 ish demographic

01:22:39.780 were the most bullish on

01:22:41.460 Trump, uh, which is another

01:22:42.980 interesting shift.

01:22:43.660 I'd have to break down that

01:22:44.600 data more to get at how

01:22:46.560 serious that is.

01:22:48.080 Uh, but, uh, it, it would

01:22:49.620 probably be worth breaking down

01:22:51.180 kind of generational, uh,

01:22:53.220 responses to Trump overall.

01:22:55.040 I think that could be an

01:22:55.900 interesting place to explore.

01:22:57.740 Yeah.

01:22:58.140 I think, um, you know, I, I

01:22:59.440 try to define generations

01:23:01.480 based on like what stage of

01:23:04.020 your life you were in when

01:23:05.180 some like era defining moment

01:23:07.200 happened, right?

01:23:07.880 Like if you were 25 and, you

01:23:10.780 know, potentially going to be

01:23:11.780 called up for service when

01:23:12.900 nine 11 happened, uh, it's

01:23:14.860 you're different than if you

01:23:16.180 were 10 when it happened.

01:23:17.400 I mean, it's just, you know,

01:23:18.480 things crystallize.

01:23:19.820 If, you know, if you happen to

01:23:21.040 be a senior citizen and your

01:23:22.240 grandson's going off to war

01:23:23.840 or, you know, your dad's

01:23:25.720 going off, those are

01:23:26.500 different things, you know?

01:23:27.440 And so your relationship to,

01:23:29.500 uh, these sort of error

01:23:31.200 defining events, like I

01:23:32.560 think separates generations.

01:23:33.820 And, you know, just the

01:23:34.580 other day on Twitter, I was

01:23:35.560 musing about the fact that

01:23:36.760 in the next midterm election,

01:23:38.700 you were going to have people

01:23:40.040 voting who were not born when

01:23:41.560 the 2008 financial crisis

01:23:43.140 happened.

01:23:44.260 And, you know, what that

01:23:45.320 means too, is those people

01:23:46.620 that you talk about, like

01:23:48.320 those youngest, youngest

01:23:49.340 generation, you know, they

01:23:51.120 were eight when Obama left

01:23:52.400 office, they missed out on

01:23:54.020 all that indoctrination and

01:23:55.340 all that excitement and all

01:23:56.580 that kind of stuff, you

01:23:57.480 know, they're, you know,

01:23:58.940 nine years old when, when

01:24:00.460 Donald Trump was like, you

01:24:02.320 know, first running for

01:24:03.760 president, you know?

01:24:04.640 And so, um, you know, and

01:24:07.180 those people are going to be

01:24:08.280 voting.

01:24:09.140 I mean, think about this.

01:24:09.920 Like I was born in 1981,

01:24:12.020 Vietnam, South Vietnam fell

01:24:13.700 to North Vietnam in 1975.

01:24:15.260 So six years before I was

01:24:16.760 born, people are going to be

01:24:18.220 voting in this next election

01:24:19.520 who were born seven years

01:24:21.080 after 9-11.

01:24:22.860 And so, um, you know, it's,

01:24:26.240 I think that's, you know,

01:24:27.200 that's the reason that it can

01:24:28.520 be hard to relate across

01:24:29.820 generations, but, um, you

01:24:32.060 know, there is something that

01:24:32.760 you commonly observe, which

01:24:33.900 is that like certain

01:24:35.440 mentalities or certain

01:24:36.480 aspects of generational

01:24:37.660 mentality sort of skip

01:24:38.940 generations.

01:24:39.740 And so you have like boomers 1.00

01:24:41.120 and millennials, I think they

01:24:42.900 recognize each other pretty

01:24:43.900 well, um, Xers and Zoomers, 0.99

01:24:46.240 maybe we recognize each other

01:24:47.720 pretty well.

01:24:48.380 You know what I mean?

01:24:49.620 Um, and I think, you know,

01:24:51.160 the, uh, I think Xers and 0.86

01:24:53.040 Zoomers are two generations 1.00

01:24:55.960 that, uh, were very much

01:24:58.800 just abandoned by the

01:25:00.040 previous generations in

01:25:01.300 really significant ways.

01:25:02.640 You know, X was like sort of

01:25:04.260 more directly, everybody's

01:25:05.200 parents got divorced and

01:25:06.460 they were partying in their

01:25:07.880 forties and every, you know,

01:25:08.980 we were all latchkey kids

01:25:10.160 running the streets as

01:25:11.100 society fell apart in the

01:25:12.400 seventies and eighties, you

01:25:13.420 know, um, Zoomers, like 1.00

01:25:16.000 they weren't, it wasn't

01:25:16.780 like that.

01:25:17.300 Like they're not allowed to

01:25:18.360 walk down to the corner

01:25:19.460 store by themselves when

01:25:20.640 they're 12 years old because

01:25:21.900 you know, the parents would

01:25:22.940 probably get arrested for

01:25:23.840 neglect or something.

01:25:24.760 But, um, but in terms of

01:25:26.960 like the moral world they

01:25:28.160 live in, the social world

01:25:29.340 they live in, you know,

01:25:30.160 just, just, they, they

01:25:32.080 were thrown completely on

01:25:33.320 their own devices to go

01:25:34.360 figure it out because the

01:25:35.580 parents, they just didn't

01:25:36.360 understand what was going

01:25:37.300 on.

01:25:37.700 You know, I mean, they're,

01:25:38.660 they, they just were not

01:25:40.220 born into the, into the

01:25:42.120 world of the internet and

01:25:43.160 modern media and everything.

01:25:44.240 They didn't understand it.

01:25:44.960 Didn't have anything to

01:25:45.520 teach their kids.

01:25:46.640 And so the Zoomers had like 0.98

01:25:47.920 the Xers had to figure life 1.00

01:25:49.180 out on their own.

01:25:50.260 And I think when you have

01:25:51.380 to do that, there's a

01:25:52.340 certain level of

01:25:53.100 conservatism that like

01:25:54.360 naturally gets embedded in

01:25:56.200 you, you know, when you've

01:25:56.980 actually had to go out and

01:25:58.080 figure out life on your

01:25:59.740 own rather than give the

01:26:01.380 teacher the right answer,

01:26:02.560 you know, which is like the

01:26:03.540 millennials, hyper protected

01:26:04.820 grew up in the nineties and

01:26:07.200 like the, the early two

01:26:08.800 thousands and, you know,

01:26:10.340 and I don't want to, well,

01:26:11.620 I shouldn't like, uh, I

01:26:14.260 don't want to, I don't want

01:26:15.100 to, um, you know, paint too

01:26:16.840 rosy of a picture of the

01:26:17.760 millennials generation.

01:26:18.760 I mean, you know, a lot of

01:26:20.080 them graduated high school,

01:26:22.500 uh, or college just in time

01:26:24.900 for the financial crisis to

01:26:26.220 happen.

01:26:26.940 Their entire lives, our

01:26:28.480 politics has been complete

01:26:29.860 insanity, you know, um, just

01:26:31.640 vulgar, disgusting.

01:26:32.860 Um, and you know, they got

01:26:35.520 their financial lives

01:26:37.540 together and their careers

01:26:38.580 and families together, maybe

01:26:39.740 by 2018, 2019 and COVID

01:26:41.740 happens.

01:26:42.200 I mean, you know, they've

01:26:43.600 had their lives thrown into

01:26:44.520 a blender a million times,

01:26:45.880 but, um, but I think like,

01:26:48.460 you know, that the, the, the

01:26:49.800 difference of, you know,

01:26:51.520 being thrown out on your own

01:26:52.920 resources from a very early

01:26:54.400 age is something that Xers and 1.00

01:26:55.820 Zoomers do share. 1.00

01:26:58.760 Robert, uh, Weinsfeld says

01:27:00.600 martyr made is the unraveling

01:27:02.440 done or paused, missed it.

01:27:04.920 Yeah.

01:27:05.360 So it's, um, paused, you

01:27:07.100 know, we're still, um, like

01:27:08.320 Jocko and I don't live in the

01:27:10.080 same city anymore.

01:27:10.780 He's still in San Diego.

01:27:11.820 I live up in North Idaho.

01:27:13.220 Um, we talk all the time

01:27:14.420 about, you know, when he comes

01:27:15.920 up to his place in big sky,

01:27:17.260 I got to come out there,

01:27:18.300 we'll record a few episodes

01:27:19.300 or something, but it's really

01:27:20.860 just a matter of making it

01:27:21.840 happen.

01:27:22.640 It was hard enough for us to

01:27:24.440 sync up our schedules and

01:27:26.540 connect when we were both in

01:27:27.720 San Diego.

01:27:28.220 So, you know, it's tough now.

01:27:31.040 Uh, Thimpler says, uh,

01:27:32.440 there were senators in Rome

01:27:33.800 who warned that buying into

01:27:35.080 Cato's blood rage would

01:27:36.380 corrupt the Roman virtue.

01:27:37.540 I think the Cyclops of DC is

01:27:40.080 like that.

01:27:42.300 Uh, Dan Crenshaw, the Cato of

01:27:44.180 his day.

01:27:46.140 Um, well, let's not get

01:27:48.380 carried away.

01:27:49.640 Yeah, let's not get carried

01:27:51.260 away.

01:27:51.680 Uh, philosophical thirst one

01:27:55.380 says, the 1930s pearl clutching,

01:27:57.040 uh, talking heads exasperated

01:27:58.920 that the current moment is

01:28:00.300 just like, uh, the Babylonian

01:28:02.520 exile.

01:28:03.420 Uh, yeah, don't get that, that

01:28:05.200 reference as often anymore, but

01:28:06.560 yeah, no, it's, it's, it's a

01:28:08.120 constant, uh, it's a constant,

01:28:09.560 uh, refrain back to the 1930s

01:28:11.820 here.

01:28:12.680 Uh, Cosmo says, liberalism is the

01:28:15.080 dynamic ideology, ideological

01:28:17.080 framework that homogenizes and

01:28:18.940 killed tradition, duty, God, in

01:28:21.060 order to lubricate commercial

01:28:22.980 aggregate capital in the ruling

01:28:25.200 class.

01:28:26.120 Uh, yeah, I mean, again, I

01:28:27.700 think there's a lot of that.

01:28:28.820 Uh, I don't think it's purely

01:28:30.040 material, uh, but if you want

01:28:31.740 to go, you know, straight to

01:28:33.540 like a, uh, D, uh, de

01:28:36.120 territorialization, re

01:28:37.300 territorialization, uh, kind of,

01:28:40.080 um, uh, uh, argument like

01:28:43.940 that, yeah, I think that there's

01:28:45.760 certainly, again, I think these

01:28:47.560 ideologies, these, uh, tend to

01:28:49.760 work in concert with both the

01:28:51.780 spiritual and the material

01:28:53.440 developments of the time.

01:28:55.040 Uh, but it's, it's certainly

01:28:56.380 true that one of the reasons

01:28:57.640 that liberalism was so

01:28:59.260 successful is that ultimately

01:29:00.660 it facilitated the ability to

01:29:02.660 meld many different commercial

01:29:03.880 spheres together, specifically

01:29:05.480 because it got, it dismissed the

01:29:07.160 particular and, and, and open

01:29:08.680 people up to kind of a minimum

01:29:10.140 basic operating, uh, procedure for

01:29:12.480 a while, which worked until it

01:29:14.060 didn't.

01:29:14.400 And we're kind of dealing with the

01:29:15.400 fallout now.

01:29:16.580 Yeah.

01:29:16.980 It kind of fits very well with

01:29:18.680 like seagoing commercial

01:29:20.160 republics, you know, whether

01:29:21.640 Athens or, um, Venice, you know,

01:29:24.760 or the Anglo countries, or even

01:29:26.540 you could look at, um, a good

01:29:27.820 one would be looking at like the

01:29:28.920 Dutch and the Germans, you know,

01:29:30.540 just blood wise, there's not much

01:29:33.080 separation between those two

01:29:34.860 peoples.

01:29:35.820 Um, but the Dutch were seagoing 1.00

01:29:37.620 commercial republic and, uh, the

01:29:40.180 Germans were continental land

01:29:41.920 power and one, you know, until

01:29:43.500 again, until they were conquered

01:29:45.140 by us in the Soviet union, um, was

01:29:47.280 naturally sort of conservative

01:29:48.600 while the other was much more

01:29:50.280 like the Anglo countries.

01:29:51.340 So yeah, that's, that's always

01:29:52.480 been interesting.

01:29:54.180 Florida Henry says, love your

01:29:55.600 podcast.

01:29:56.280 Just finished the Jim Jones part.

01:29:58.080 Any parallels of the people's

01:30:00.040 temple and the modern left?

01:30:03.140 Uh, yeah, that's, that was kind

01:30:04.840 of the, that was kind of the

01:30:06.200 theme of the podcast in a lot of

01:30:07.780 ways.

01:30:08.060 I mean, like, you know, one of the

01:30:09.960 things that I, that I thought

01:30:12.020 about and have said ever since I

01:30:13.860 did that podcast is like, you

01:30:16.060 know, I think it's like a very

01:30:17.120 real possibility and a scary

01:30:18.800 thing.

01:30:20.060 You know, Jim Jones got a

01:30:21.000 thousand people to kill

01:30:22.040 themselves out in the jungles

01:30:23.260 in Guyana with modern media

01:30:25.240 communication and the internet.

01:30:26.580 I mean, I don't think it's

01:30:28.080 entirely outside the

01:30:29.040 possibility that we wake up

01:30:30.300 one day and find that 10

01:30:31.360 million people committed

01:30:32.340 suicide because of some like,

01:30:34.160 you know, movement like that.

01:30:35.480 And my next thought after that

01:30:37.260 was that that's kind of what

01:30:38.660 transgenderism is.

01:30:39.760 You know, it's not like literal

01:30:41.420 suicide, but I mean, it, you

01:30:43.100 know, it might as well be.

01:30:45.020 Yeah.

01:30:45.240 And like, you know, we know

01:30:47.240 it's been pretty well

01:30:48.200 established now that the way

01:30:49.660 that this spreads by social

01:30:51.020 contagion and that it, you

01:30:52.660 know, it's got all the, all

01:30:53.840 the markings of like a cult

01:30:56.120 that's distinguished from like a

01:30:57.420 religion in terms of like, they

01:30:58.640 expect you to reorient your

01:31:00.440 entire life to make this new

01:31:02.540 thing, the center of your life

01:31:04.140 to the exclusion.

01:31:05.880 You know, they, it actively

01:31:07.040 works to try to separate you

01:31:08.580 from everything you knew

01:31:09.640 before, because those things

01:31:11.280 might potentially try to draw

01:31:12.600 you out of the movement.

01:31:13.740 You know, people who try to

01:31:14.980 leave the movement are punished

01:31:16.600 by people who remain in the

01:31:18.140 movement like terribly.

01:31:20.380 You know, it really wants to

01:31:21.640 control your whole life and it

01:31:22.920 pulls people in and gets them

01:31:24.520 to take a step that sort of

01:31:27.360 marks them for life and makes

01:31:28.680 it hard to back out, you know?

01:31:30.440 And so I would, you know, to

01:31:31.820 me, that's a, it's, it's an

01:31:33.420 obvious cult, you know, it's,

01:31:35.280 we don't think of it that way

01:31:36.160 because there's not a Jim Jones

01:31:37.460 up at the top, but, you know,

01:31:39.540 with modern media technology, I

01:31:41.040 mean, decentralized cults are

01:31:42.500 not a, I mean, look at even

01:31:44.540 QAnon or something, you know,

01:31:46.260 whether QAnon was being run

01:31:47.660 from Langley or whether it was

01:31:49.840 just sort of a naturally

01:31:51.980 emergent thing of people

01:31:53.460 shitposting and like it just

01:31:55.820 sort of catching on and

01:31:57.040 becoming a thing.

01:31:57.780 Like I know people who are, who

01:31:59.140 went to jail because they bought

01:32:00.460 into that stuff and like broke

01:32:01.700 into a government building, you

01:32:03.080 know, people who were not

01:32:04.720 crazy before that, by the way,

01:32:06.720 like, like, yeah, I'll just

01:32:09.580 leave it at that.

01:32:10.040 People who were, I known for a

01:32:11.380 long time, normal people who

01:32:13.560 lost their minds over that.

01:32:14.920 And like, uh, you can, that's

01:32:16.920 an example of what can happen,

01:32:18.420 you know?

01:32:19.120 I mean, look at COVID.

01:32:20.720 We literally got a global

01:32:21.700 example of this, right?

01:32:23.640 Like just got people to engage

01:32:25.860 in all kinds of completely fake

01:32:27.180 rituals for no other reason

01:32:29.200 than the TV told them to.

01:32:30.580 Uh, and you know, they were

01:32:32.000 sufficiently isolated from

01:32:33.600 friends and family and

01:32:34.640 community long enough to where

01:32:36.180 they would literally just

01:32:37.240 believe anything that the TV

01:32:39.120 told them, no matter how

01:32:40.540 ridiculous, uh, about, you

01:32:42.320 know, a disease that obviously

01:32:43.500 was not doing what they were

01:32:44.860 told it was doing.

01:32:46.140 Uh, philosophical thirstworm

01:32:47.700 said, uh, they even use the

01:32:49.340 insane rules on non-whites, 0.96

01:32:51.460 native, uh, Ghanese and nagged 0.95

01:32:54.520 for not, uh, liking the

01:32:55.700 individual black menial class

01:32:57.380 imported by their birth.

01:32:58.740 The Dominicans are nagged for 1.00

01:33:00.240 not liking the French bioweapon 1.00

01:33:01.800 left on their island.

01:33:04.940 Um, yeah, I, again, I'm not

01:33:07.100 super familiar with some of

01:33:08.500 those references, but it looks

01:33:09.840 like you're talking about

01:33:10.500 Hispaniola there at the end.

01:33:12.320 Uh, thank you for your super

01:33:14.420 chat.

01:33:14.880 Uh, Ataraxia says anyone 0.94

01:33:17.060 interested in this subject should

01:33:18.400 read Murray Rothbard's nation,

01:33:21.020 nations by consent, not read that

01:33:24.720 one by, uh, Rothbard though.

01:33:26.540 Uh, nations by consent doesn't

01:33:28.160 sound promising, but, uh,

01:33:31.100 libertarians already hate me.

01:33:32.280 So I can say that.

01:33:33.500 Um, James says what realistically

01:33:35.640 would need to happen for real

01:33:37.840 American ethnogenesis to happen, 0.87

01:33:39.460 or will we see a breakup and

01:33:41.780 several, uh, and several

01:33:43.380 ethnogenesis?

01:33:44.600 Uh, I, I would say the latter is

01:33:47.000 probably more likely.

01:33:48.380 I, I, I'm not sure how you get

01:33:50.100 an ethnogenesis over 350 million

01:33:52.060 people that share very little at

01:33:54.380 this point.

01:33:54.820 I think you really have to scale

01:33:56.140 things down for that to happen,

01:33:57.380 but any thoughts from you,

01:33:58.860 Daryl?

01:34:00.480 Um, you know, I think that, uh,

01:34:03.720 and I know I'm, I'm kind of in

01:34:05.760 the minority on this on the right,

01:34:07.420 I think, but, um, you know, I

01:34:11.280 know people look at the United

01:34:12.640 States as a sort of outpost of

01:34:15.280 Western civilization in the new 0.54

01:34:16.800 world.

01:34:17.160 Um, and certainly that's what

01:34:19.120 it's been for a lot of our

01:34:20.640 history.

01:34:21.320 Um, I sort of wonder though, if

01:34:23.620 it was destined to like really

01:34:25.040 ever be that over the long term,

01:34:26.920 because I mean, look like

01:34:28.980 Europeans got here first and we

01:34:31.020 started colonizing the place

01:34:32.180 first, but when you have this

01:34:33.220 much open land and so many, it

01:34:36.340 was inevitably going to attract

01:34:37.920 people from all over the world.

01:34:39.140 I mean, that was going to happen

01:34:40.040 unless you're going to put the

01:34:41.200 Navy on the coast and sink every

01:34:42.840 ship that wants to come in.

01:34:43.960 I mean, that's just something that

01:34:44.880 was, was going to happen.

01:34:46.580 And it has already happened now,

01:34:48.140 whether we decide to stop the

01:34:50.260 flow or not.

01:34:50.960 So we have to, we have to live in

01:34:52.880 that world.

01:34:54.160 And, um, you know, I kind of

01:34:56.400 wonder if instead of being, and

01:34:57.960 maybe this is like the only chance

01:34:59.680 we have of like a real nationwide

01:35:02.320 ethnogenesis is, um, you know, is,

01:35:05.560 is maybe we're not an outpost of

01:35:08.120 Western civilization.

01:35:09.120 You know, maybe, maybe, uh, we

01:35:11.200 were a seed planted here by the

01:35:13.240 West, uh, but that we're a

01:35:15.020 civilization in formation now, you

01:35:17.220 know, uh, a civilization of our

01:35:18.960 own.

01:35:19.400 And people are going to talk

01:35:20.540 about, you know, this is like the

01:35:22.640 argument that's gone on in Russia

01:35:24.040 for a few hundred years now is

01:35:25.700 like, is Russia a European 0.72

01:35:26.700 country or is Russia a

01:35:27.980 civilization?

01:35:29.060 And I think now, you know, um,

01:35:30.760 the civilization argument is

01:35:32.040 probably a lot more, a lot more

01:35:34.020 popular than it was a few years

01:35:35.300 ago.

01:35:35.800 But I think that's going to be the

01:35:37.000 discussion to have in America too.

01:35:38.460 You know, it's like, that doesn't

01:35:39.680 mean we should like not be friends

01:35:42.040 with Europe.

01:35:42.480 We share a lot in common with them

01:35:43.980 and the rest of the Western

01:35:45.180 countries and everything, but, you

01:35:47.340 know, uh, maybe we're our own

01:35:49.300 civilization and that our nat, our

01:35:51.040 natural role is leadership of the

01:35:53.000 Western hemisphere, you know, and

01:35:54.660 maybe that's where our foreign

01:35:56.920 policy should be primarily focused

01:35:58.680 on.

01:35:59.000 And maybe we shouldn't be taking the

01:36:00.440 side of Britain over Argentina

01:36:02.280 ever under any circumstances, you

01:36:04.560 know, because these are our

01:36:05.960 hemispheric neighbors, you know, and

01:36:07.340 maybe we should, uh, start thinking,

01:36:09.780 uh, in, in those terms.

01:36:12.360 Um, beyond that, yeah, it's really

01:36:14.360 hard to imagine how, I mean,

01:36:15.920 cause you've never really had like,

01:36:17.760 uh, you know, an ethnogenesis that

01:36:20.220 took place at a, the kind of scale

01:36:22.100 we're talking about 350 million

01:36:23.540 people on a country, the size of a

01:36:25.080 continent, you know what I mean?

01:36:26.100 Like that would be totally

01:36:28.060 unprecedented.

01:36:28.640 Now, on the other hand, you know,

01:36:31.060 if you look at the things that like

01:36:32.360 nation states did to like create

01:36:34.480 that ethnogenesis in, in places where

01:36:36.940 it has happened, you know, they

01:36:39.100 had to, they built highways, they

01:36:40.640 put up telegraph lines, they, you

01:36:42.820 know, had radio and TV, just all of

01:36:45.260 these things to tie the country

01:36:46.500 together and make it smaller and

01:36:48.060 bring people closer together, um, in

01:36:50.540 terms of communication and travel and

01:36:52.760 so forth, um, so that it homogenized

01:36:55.620 the national culture somewhat brought

01:36:57.520 everybody, you know, into that.

01:36:59.640 And, you know, today with the

01:37:01.280 communication technology and

01:37:02.540 everything we have, maybe it's

01:37:04.000 possible where it wouldn't have been

01:37:06.280 possible before.

01:37:07.740 Um, but I mean, it's a, uh, you

01:37:13.120 know, the, the, the, the person who

01:37:15.040 asked the question was right to frame

01:37:16.400 it the way they did, because we

01:37:17.600 either figure that out or eventually

01:37:19.480 this country will balkanize, you

01:37:21.480 know, that's just, those are the two

01:37:22.880 directions that this can go.

01:37:24.980 Yeah.

01:37:25.100 I think that they attempt to do that

01:37:27.120 was in the 1950s, like the post

01:37:28.740 world war two consensus was largely an

01:37:31.520 attempt to do this because we did have

01:37:33.400 radio and television and highway

01:37:35.980 systems.

01:37:36.680 And, you know, if it was going to

01:37:38.920 happen, it, that's when it was going

01:37:40.780 to happen.

01:37:41.140 And it kind of happened.

01:37:42.660 Uh, and then heart seller happened.

01:37:44.260 Uh, and so it didn't happen.

01:37:46.080 Uh, and so I, I think we, I think we

01:37:48.020 kind of threw a spanner into the 1.00

01:37:50.240 works of our own, um, technological

01:37:52.940 ethnogenesis moment.

01:37:54.300 Uh, yeah, we had, we had like a, um,

01:37:57.500 you know, we had just come off like

01:37:58.800 winning the world war and emerging as

01:38:01.180 sort of the most, the obvious, most

01:38:03.140 powerful country on earth, which is

01:38:04.600 always going to engender a sense of

01:38:05.840 nationalism in people.

01:38:06.920 Um, but also like, you know, that was

01:38:09.760 the period when, especially like

01:38:11.860 accelerating from world war two on

01:38:13.760 when all of the different European

01:38:16.180 ethnics who inhabited most of the big

01:38:18.040 cities in the country, um, you know,

01:38:19.700 the Irish and the Jews and the Italians

01:38:21.480 and everybody else who kind of had their

01:38:23.400 own quarters and neighborhoods and

01:38:24.920 different cities and stuff.

01:38:25.920 Um, they sort of all at once across the

01:38:29.340 country were, uh, confronted with this

01:38:31.860 challenge that was being brought in by

01:38:33.620 the mass migration of African Americans

01:38:35.360 out of the South, you know, and it, you,

01:38:37.500 you see this back in the fifties and

01:38:39.180 sixties, you know, a lot of these like, um,

01:38:42.760 you know, white citizens councils or

01:38:44.560 whatever else, like sounds like this super

01:38:47.380 exclusivist, like, you know, stay out of 1.00

01:38:49.740 my backyard kind of thing, but in, in a

01:38:53.040 certain way, it was, it was, uh, an, uh,

01:38:56.860 it represented a kind of openness that

01:38:58.500 hadn't existed before because, you know,

01:39:00.100 you have the white citizens council where

01:39:01.820 the Jewish guy, the Italian guy, the

01:39:03.720 Irish guy, and the Anglo guy are all 1.00

01:39:05.860 here friends identifying with each other

01:39:07.540 because they have this common challenge

01:39:09.240 that they have to respond to.

01:39:10.600 And so all those people obviously moved

01:39:12.740 out of the cities into the suburbs.

01:39:14.140 So now you're literally like just an

01:39:16.200 Anglo with an Italian neighbor and an

01:39:18.700 Irish neighbor and their kids aren't 0.99

01:39:21.800 really Italian or Irish or Anglo at all.

01:39:23.960 They're just, and so you started to get

01:39:25.880 that going, you know, as you said, from

01:39:28.340 about 45 to maybe like, you can say

01:39:30.700 heart seller, but I would say probably

01:39:32.240 like, I don't know, like the, like the,

01:39:34.620 the first shot fired in that war was

01:39:37.260 probably in Dallas in 1963.

01:39:39.320 You know, like, I think people really

01:39:41.180 lost a lot of faith in the system and

01:39:43.760 the project when Kennedy was shot and, you

01:39:46.180 know, heart seller, it was, it was, you

01:39:49.860 know, we didn't really start to get

01:39:50.860 meaningful immigration and started to

01:39:52.520 transform the demographics of the

01:39:54.000 country for a decade, probably two

01:39:55.500 decades after that.

01:39:56.540 So, um, where it was felt kind of as a

01:39:59.100 national issue.

01:40:00.620 And, um, so I don't know if it was like

01:40:02.540 necessarily the passing of the law that

01:40:04.460 did it as much as, you know, we, the

01:40:08.260 fly in the ointment of that national

01:40:10.020 identity project that we were engaged in

01:40:11.920 obviously was the fact that there were,

01:40:14.080 there was about 10% of the population

01:40:15.740 that was kind of not included in that,

01:40:17.140 at least not fully black people.

01:40:18.660 And, um, you know, in the 1960s, white

01:40:23.420 America kind of decided on Moss, including

01:40:26.600 the people who were Italian and whatever

01:40:29.120 else who weren't here, you know, during,

01:40:30.800 um, the antebellum period, weren't here for

01:40:33.480 the civil war.

01:40:34.420 Um, but everybody kind of came to a

01:40:36.900 conclusion, not every single person, but

01:40:38.740 like, you know, a large majority, I think

01:40:41.360 of, of white Americans came to the

01:40:43.500 conclusion that we gotta, we gotta help

01:40:45.740 these people up a little bit.

01:40:46.800 Like, you know, this is, um, a

01:40:48.200 responsibility and obligation we have to

01:40:50.100 our former slave population that we're

01:40:52.820 gonna, we're gonna take certain measures,

01:40:54.300 do certain things to try to, to try to

01:40:56.680 make things right.

01:40:57.840 You know, if not make them equal, at

01:40:59.160 least try to make them right and have a

01:41:00.420 gesture.

01:41:00.880 But then all of the things that we did

01:41:03.580 sort of as these emergency measures to

01:41:05.780 try to, to try to help this former

01:41:07.640 slave population got transferred over to

01:41:10.680 like every descendant of Cortez who

01:41:12.500 decides to come across the Southern

01:41:13.960 border and like, you know, they can kind

01:41:16.000 of free ride off of the, uh, off of the,

01:41:19.420 you know, the, the measures that we've

01:41:20.740 taken to, um, you know, to try to lift up

01:41:23.460 the black population and got to the point 0.88

01:41:25.780 where, you know, once you count just the

01:41:29.180 whole, uh, constituency of the civil rights

01:41:32.280 regime is like women, uh, all, all immigrants 1.00

01:41:38.320 and children of immigrants, everybody who's

01:41:40.460 not white, everybody who's not Christian.

01:41:43.460 Um, and pretty soon it's like 70% of the

01:41:46.340 country has this set of legal, legal

01:41:49.160 privileges that are, are enshrined.

01:41:51.900 Um, and 30% of the country that doesn't, and

01:41:54.080 that was never sustainable.

01:41:55.220 You can, especially when that 30% is in a 0.99

01:41:57.840 lot of ways, like the core of your, of, of

01:42:00.640 what any, you know, ethnogenesis project in

01:42:03.120 this country is going to be about.

01:42:04.400 And so, you, you know, we, we just

01:42:06.320 created a, we created a system that really

01:42:09.080 alienated like the core of our population.

01:42:12.260 And, um, but yeah, I mean, 45 to 1960, people

01:42:16.760 would have been justified in being kind of

01:42:18.220 optimistic, you know?

01:42:19.500 I mean, you had like, uh, like the city of

01:42:21.840 Vicksburg never from the time it got

01:42:24.600 conquered during the civil war, uh, never

01:42:28.080 celebrated the 4th of July again until July

01:42:31.680 4th, 1944 after the D-Day invasion, you

01:42:34.300 know, and like that, that war and just, uh,

01:42:36.980 the, the social things that were going on

01:42:38.860 across the country all at the same time, um,

01:42:41.340 really did unite at least white Americans in

01:42:43.960 a profound way that, you know, hadn't been

01:42:46.040 accomplished, uh, before that.

01:42:47.460 And of course it had been 20 years since we

01:42:49.640 had really shut down the immigration system

01:42:51.420 for the most part, you know, in 1924.

01:42:53.340 So, um, so yeah.

01:42:56.900 Anyway.

01:42:58.000 Yeah.

01:42:58.140 I meant to get into the, uh, the way in

01:42:59.840 which the dissolving of ethnic identities

01:43:01.620 brought in racial identities in a way that

01:43:04.240 now has created, you know, like you said,

01:43:06.760 it's, uh, it was an ethnogenesis of a type

01:43:09.740 at the moment, but now has become a, uh, an

01:43:12.160 even larger barrier to kind of, uh,

01:43:14.900 understanding American identity.

01:43:16.460 But, uh, that will have to be for our next

01:43:18.660 conversation.

01:43:19.240 I suppose things were already deep in this.

01:43:21.360 Uh, let's see life of Brian here says the

01:43:23.460 power dialectic, uh, allegiance broad enough

01:43:26.060 to amass a huge number yet deep enough that

01:43:28.800 the people in enlist and fight lives, love the

01:43:31.840 world, but proudly say that the world never, uh,

01:43:35.200 that they, uh, never serve while Afghans. 1.00

01:43:38.800 Okay.

01:43:39.380 Uh, yeah, no, again, uh, I think the, that's

01:43:41.920 always the trick is like the scale is obviously

01:43:46.280 huge and the larger, the more people, the more

01:43:48.820 material you can bring in under your state, the

01:43:51.980 more powerful it becomes.

01:43:53.500 Uh, but the question is, as you point out there in

01:43:55.800 the super chat, like when does that overstep, right?

01:43:58.420 Like when does that transcend, uh, the point where

01:44:00.680 it's advantageous and instead becomes a liability, you

01:44:03.820 have more and more people under your control, but

01:44:05.920 fewer and fewer of them are willing to fight and

01:44:07.880 die for the existential, uh, you know, kind of a

01:44:11.640 continuation of, uh, that way of life.

01:44:14.260 Uh, and so there, there is a, a law of diminishing

01:44:16.920 returns that, that ultimately hits us here.

01:44:19.140 Uh, and I think that is something that many different, uh,

01:44:22.280 civilizations are currently experiencing simultaneously.

01:44:25.740 Yeah.

01:44:26.100 And it makes sense too.

01:44:27.080 I mean, just, it relates to what I said earlier about

01:44:29.180 building communities, as opposed to like commenting

01:44:31.360 on what we should do from a national perspective or

01:44:35.140 something, you know, in a lot of ways, as counterintuitive

01:44:37.580 as it might sound, it's easier to love the foreigner

01:44:40.360 than it is to love your neighbor because the foreigner

01:44:43.120 can be idealized and you can love them all you want.

01:44:45.920 You don't actually have to do anything for them.

01:44:48.080 Whereas your neighbor, you may or may not love, you

01:44:50.380 know, or really like, uh, but they're your neighbor.

01:44:53.000 And, you know, there's obligations that come with

01:44:56.840 that love.

01:44:57.340 And so, you know, it's endemic to like the liberal sort

01:45:01.220 of side of American politics, for sure that, you

01:45:03.600 know, they've chosen the easy route of loving the far

01:45:07.180 away that requires nothing of them and, uh, giving

01:45:10.660 themselves a thousand reasons not to care about the

01:45:12.940 people, you know, who are close to them who might

01:45:14.960 actually impose obligations if, if, if they did care.

01:45:18.420 So the old telescopic philanthropy, you know, says, uh, the

01:45:23.000 Greek term for people purposely voting to reduce their

01:45:26.140 own representation is, uh, demo, demoistless.

01:45:30.260 I don't, not sure exactly how that would get pronounced.

01:45:32.720 Uh, but thank you for that.

01:45:35.100 Wait, how did you pronounce his name?

01:45:37.220 Uh, Templar.

01:45:38.780 All right.

01:45:40.320 I'm doing, I'm doing my best here, man.

01:45:42.720 I'm sure.

01:45:44.120 Yeah.

01:45:44.740 No, I think you're probably right.

01:45:46.020 I have no idea in my experience.

01:45:47.860 You just lower your shoulder and keep going.

01:45:49.500 I taught high school, you know, like I had to announce them, you

01:45:52.400 know, in, uh, let's say very diverse classrooms.

01:45:55.120 I had to do a lot of guessing, you know, I'm pretty used to it.

01:45:57.820 Yeah.

01:45:58.080 I'm doing this world war two series.

01:45:59.880 I'm working as hard as possible to like, uh, to steer the

01:46:04.560 story in ways that protects me from having to pronounce French

01:46:07.780 names as much as possible.

01:46:09.220 It's when you, when you change your entire, uh, way of gathering and

01:46:13.800 writing narrative simply so you can avoid embarrassing yourself with

01:46:16.820 pronunciations.

01:46:18.000 Uh, Thuggo says, Peterson is saying the accomplishments of your

01:46:21.020 ancestors are not important.

01:46:22.500 So the advantages they give, uh, they gave you can be stolen.

01:46:27.840 Uh, that's, I mean, I think, uh, you know, again, I, I wouldn't want to

01:46:31.300 speak on behalf of Peterson, but I think, yeah, he would, uh, ultimately

01:46:35.160 think that their accomplishments are not something that you owned.

01:46:38.240 And so, yes, that, that is of course, uh, the implication there of

01:46:42.180 what the line of reasoning he's following, even if he wouldn't say

01:46:45.360 that explicitly, uh, tiny Rick says, I don't know exactly what

01:46:49.160 American identity is or will become, but your average person is

01:46:52.580 absolutely starving for it.

01:46:54.080 Great show.

01:46:54.760 And yes, our guests.

01:46:56.940 Yeah.

01:46:57.100 And again, I think this is why Trump became so popular because he

01:47:00.680 really was for better or worse, uh, the last gasp of American

01:47:04.620 identity.

01:47:05.180 I think that's why he, uh, gained the amount of support that he

01:47:09.880 did.

01:47:10.280 Again, I don't think Trump could probably articulate this in any

01:47:13.300 meaningful sense.

01:47:14.180 Uh, but most people who followed him kind of recognize that whatever

01:47:18.440 it is, I need to protect, uh, this is kind of the last train out, uh,

01:47:23.040 before, before, uh, we completely lose that.

01:47:25.320 And so, um, even if you, you know, you, you probably should never be

01:47:29.020 able to completely define these things.

01:47:31.160 That's what makes them, uh, what they are, right?

01:47:34.140 It's, it's your Britishness or your America's American-ness, uh, was

01:47:39.040 something that, uh, we, you would immediately recognize in others as

01:47:41.960 you were, you know, speaking about previously, Daryl.

01:47:44.140 So I think, uh, you, you never actually want to be able to completely

01:47:47.700 pin it down though.

01:47:48.820 When you know it or when you see it, you would know it.

01:47:51.300 Um, and then again here, Templar says, uh, not to smear him too much, but

01:47:57.940 Crenshaw's, uh, glass eye is an Avenger's shield.

01:48:00.620 And I think that says a lot about millennials.

01:48:04.220 Uh, I don't know if that's a troll or if there's any truth to that, but, uh,

01:48:08.140 you know, I tried to avoid, like, he's actually tweeted at me, uh, insulting

01:48:13.240 ways a few times, like personally.

01:48:15.120 And I, um, I try to just avoid it because he and Jocko, they're not best

01:48:20.380 friends or anything, but they know each other and they have common friends

01:48:22.880 and stuff.

01:48:23.380 And so I just, I try to stay away from, uh, from, from saying bad things about

01:48:28.000 Crenshaw, but you know, not, uh, hopefully, hopefully he won't be in the

01:48:33.200 public eye much longer and I won't have to worry about it.

01:48:36.540 I mean, his continued, uh, election is a black, uh, eye on, uh, Texas.

01:48:41.680 And I think it's best if they, uh, if they move on.

01:48:44.600 Uh, that said, guys, we're going to go ahead and wrap this up.

01:48:47.240 It's been a marathon.

01:48:48.320 Uh, it's always great to talk to Daryl.

01:48:50.480 Thank you so much for coming on, man.

01:48:52.240 If anybody is not listening to, of course, the martyr made podcast, you need to

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01:49:25.620 Thank you everybody for watching.

01:49:27.420 And as always, I will talk to you next time.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - March 05, 2025

The Failed Experiment of the Modern State ｜ Guest： Darryl Cooper ｜ 3⧸5⧸25

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