The Auron MacIntyre Show - The Fourth Political Theory： Part Two ｜ Guest Michael Millerman ｜ 4⧸13⧸24

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.740 Thanks for joining me this morning.

00:00:33.700 We're here bright and early today to make sure that we got and made this stream happen.

00:00:38.480 So many of you really enjoyed the previous stream on Alexander Dugan and his fourth political theory,

00:00:45.420 but we only made it through three chapters and so many people wanted to hear more.

00:00:50.780 I figured it would be great if we could continue to do the series.

00:00:53.480 And luckily, Michael Milliman is back and has agreed to go ahead and continue looking through the work

00:00:59.600 of Alexander Dugan.

00:01:01.180 Michael, thanks for coming on again.

00:01:03.480 It's my pleasure.

00:01:05.300 Absolutely.

00:01:05.860 So like I said, we're going to be picking up where we left off.

00:01:09.160 We were on Chapter 3, so we'll just pick up where we were from there on Chapter 4 here.

00:01:15.380 But before we dive back into Dugan and the fourth political theory, let's go ahead and hear from today's sponsor.

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00:02:41.520 All right, so in Chapter 4, Dugan steps in and talks about time.

00:02:50.200 It's just a few pages, but it's a very interesting few pages.

00:02:54.300 And he starts by talking about the reversibility of time versus the idea of progress,

00:03:01.000 which I think is probably some jarring language for some people.

00:03:04.180 But he kind of sets the stage by saying the idea we have of time, the concept that we have of time currently,

00:03:10.920 is not one that has been the case in all societies.

00:03:14.600 It has not been throughout history the way that many different cultures and peoples have understood time.

00:03:20.500 And so he says that kind of the understandings and the writings of Hegel

00:03:24.260 and the concept of social Darwinism have changed the way that we view time.

00:03:30.420 And we see it almost as some kind of monarch that rules us, that drives us in a particular direction,

00:03:37.040 that time itself draws us in a particular way.

00:03:41.680 And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about this idea of how time has transformed,

00:03:48.920 how we see time has transformed through kind of these ideologies that now kind of animate the way

00:03:54.840 that our political thinking in the current paradigm.

00:03:59.660 Well, for Dugan, it's a key question because the idea of the end of history

00:04:05.020 already implies some notion of a directionality to time,

00:04:08.320 of an arrow of time, of a motor of historical progress that comes to an end.

00:04:12.900 So he gets that from Hegel and from Kojev.

00:04:15.320 But what he says is that common to all three of liberalism, communism, and fascism,

00:04:19.980 or all three political theories, all three modern theories,

00:04:23.680 is the idea that time is unidirectional and progressive.

00:04:27.420 And so at a very simple level, we could say that,

00:04:30.500 well, what would other models of time look like?

00:04:34.140 So for example, that time is regressive rather than progressive,

00:04:37.020 or that time is cyclical, or that time is not homogenous,

00:04:42.180 that it consists of these sort of distinct heterogeneous moments that are epochal

00:04:47.620 or somehow that shift the spirit of the times without it being a clear unidirectional march

00:04:53.660 of history, that kind of thing.

00:04:55.720 So because one of Dugan's tasks in this book, let's put it this way,

00:04:59.600 his dual task is to understand the state of affairs right now from an ideological perspective

00:05:04.240 and to begin to open up the prospects for ideology construction,

00:05:09.200 or, you know, to open up a new philosophical space for thinking about politics.

00:05:12.820 So he's able to do that here in this way by showing number one,

00:05:16.360 the shared thesis of the unidirectionality of time,

00:05:19.560 that gives us the analysis, the descriptive analysis of the three political theories,

00:05:23.980 and the thesis of the reversibility of time,

00:05:26.760 or as he puts it, my restatement here of it is sort of the political variability of time.

00:05:33.640 Time varies as a function of political decisions,

00:05:37.600 or as a function of political community.

00:05:39.800 In other words, time is not so unproblematically given as something self-evident.

00:05:46.740 And therefore, Dugan is very much trying to force us back into the question

00:05:51.820 of the nature of time, of the meaning of time, of the sociology of time,

00:05:56.660 and just thereby to enrich our conceptual arsenal for thinking about things like the meaning of history.

00:06:06.200 Here's another small example.

00:06:08.320 To contest the idea that history is unidirectional,

00:06:11.660 that it culminates in a final moment like an end of history type thesis,

00:06:14.360 doesn't mean to reject completely, and in all cases,

00:06:18.500 the idea that history is unidirectional, because, as he says somewhere,

00:06:22.840 if, for example, we relativize history to civilizations,

00:06:27.120 then a certain civilization might be at the end of its history,

00:06:30.200 while another civilization might be at the beginning of its history.

00:06:33.760 You see?

00:06:34.580 So this idea that we're going to pluralize our conceptual understanding of time

00:06:39.520 is, for him, as he puts it, one of the fundamental conceptual building blocks

00:06:44.400 for the fourth political theory.

00:06:46.900 Yeah, and to give an example, you know, people might say,

00:06:50.620 okay, reverse time, how does this even work?

00:06:53.040 One of the examples he gives would be that, you know,

00:06:57.280 capitalism was supposed to precede communism,

00:06:59.560 but in Russia, communism led to capitalism.

00:07:04.760 And so it's one of those things that this process is supposed to be one-directional.

00:07:10.320 It's supposed to be inevitable.

00:07:11.980 It's supposed to be part of kind of the dialectic and human progression,

00:07:15.840 but instead we see a reversal of what was supposed to happen in that way.

00:07:21.700 He also doesn't reject the idea of progress,

00:07:24.940 but he just makes it clear that progress is kind of relative

00:07:29.120 to the situation and to the goals and the understandings

00:07:34.080 of the civilization it's happening in.

00:07:37.020 And so he's not completely getting rid of the idea of progress,

00:07:39.660 but he's just saying it needs to be understood

00:07:41.160 in the context of the civilization that's kind of observing it.

00:07:45.540 That's right, because in part, when we think about progress,

00:07:48.900 we have implicitly the valuation, what is progressing?

00:07:51.940 To say we're progressing means we're getting closer to a vision of the good

00:07:56.300 or a standard of the good, or we're implementing more justice or more truth,

00:08:00.180 but truth, justice, and the good are contested concepts,

00:08:03.420 and therefore progress is going to look different in different places.

00:08:06.660 In one place, it's going to mean more transgenderism, 0.92

00:08:09.440 in another place, it's going to mean less transgenderism,

00:08:11.980 depending on how you've evaluated the phenomenon of transgenderism,

00:08:14.780 for example, you know, so on with the other possible contestable social phenomena.

00:08:19.840 What he doesn't mean, unless anybody's confused about this,

00:08:23.700 he definitely doesn't mean that you're going to, you know,

00:08:26.520 become younger or something like that, that, you know,

00:08:28.680 the biological aging process is going to be reversed

00:08:31.220 in the direction of a fountain of youth or something like that.

00:08:33.920 So he's not talking about the reversibility of time

00:08:36.260 in the sense that instead of getting older, you get younger.

00:08:38.700 But the problem is that time is something that we interpret,

00:08:42.400 and the interpretations of time are what he's really looking at to a certain extent.

00:08:46.680 And in modernity, time has been interpreted in this way,

00:08:49.420 that it tends towards improvement, that the future is going to be better, and so on.

00:08:56.200 Whereas, clearly, as I'm sure people know who have studied, for example,

00:08:59.260 cyclical theories of history or catastrophic theories of history,

00:09:02.620 there's no guarantee.

00:09:04.340 That's not the only way of understanding social time, on one hand.

00:09:07.340 There's no guarantee, there's no obvious guarantee

00:09:09.140 that history is always going to be progressive in that sense.

00:09:11.440 And then, like I said, the key values themselves are contested.

00:09:13.780 So, by shining a spotlight on all of that in this chapter,

00:09:17.960 and in different ways in other chapters,

00:09:19.820 he's able to expand the field of ideological analysis, which is his goal.

00:09:25.780 So, one of the other things that he talks about,

00:09:29.180 and this is so often the case with Dugan, from what I can see so far at least,

00:09:34.260 is the need to basically allow each culture, each region,

00:09:40.160 and each people to experience and understand time in their own way.

00:09:44.300 So, he talks about, you know, ethnic particularities are going to vary the way in which time works.

00:09:51.040 Not assuming, you need to make sure that you're not assuming a particular destiny for mankind as a whole,

00:09:56.140 and understand kind of individual groups as their own particular set that will move towards,

00:10:03.600 you know, something that is defined by their culture and their understanding.

00:10:07.160 And then, of course, as we've often kind of pointed to with him,

00:10:10.700 political pluralism, reintroducing the idea that, you know, everything doesn't have to be liberalism.

00:10:17.320 We don't have to have a global hegemony of a particular political system,

00:10:21.340 that by altering the political system,

00:10:23.260 we can actually alter the way that time is conceptualized inside those societies.

00:10:27.440 Yeah, I would say that political pluralism is comprehensible, I would imagine, for a lot of people.

00:10:33.500 This idea that there shouldn't be one model that dominates,

00:10:35.660 people should be allowed to go their own way to a certain extent,

00:10:37.980 local characteristics, particular characteristics, ethnic, religious, historical, cultural,

00:10:42.820 civilizational, and so on.

00:10:44.280 What is maybe surprising or unique, as you've mentioned,

00:10:48.280 and as people see when they study Dugan,

00:10:49.800 is that for him, that is indissociable from metaphysical pluralism,

00:10:56.040 from a worldview pluralism, you know,

00:10:59.480 from a pluralism about the big questions and the key concepts of even the sciences.

00:11:06.060 So in one place, he says that in a civilizational multipolarity,

00:11:10.080 there would be different sciences, okay, like a Russian science, Indian science,

00:11:15.580 African science, and so on.

00:11:16.960 I think today, when we hear that, it's often the case that we're familiar with, like,

00:11:22.920 you know, the attack on 2 plus 2 equals 4 by people who relativize it

00:11:25.940 and argue that 2 plus 2 equals 5,

00:11:27.600 or that, you know, Western white man's ways of knowing

00:11:31.340 have been oppressive to the Aboriginal-type ways of knowing or something like that.

00:11:36.100 So we're familiar, more or less, with some, like, version of that.

00:11:42.060 But Dugan's model tries to be much richer and much more sophisticated

00:11:47.260 and much better founded.

00:11:49.620 So he takes an interest in the constitution of the sciences

00:11:52.520 and the relationship of science and language

00:11:54.240 and why it is that we've inherited certain models of understanding and knowledge.

00:11:58.780 So it's not, what I want to say is this.

00:12:00.880 In some cases, it's a reflexive, like, anti-colonialism, right,

00:12:05.680 where people just say we're going to reject Western ways of knowing

00:12:08.020 because we're rejecting Western colonialism,

00:12:10.320 and they sort of embrace what seem like foolish alternatives

00:12:13.400 that don't really stand the test of serious reflection.

00:12:16.360 Maybe some do to a certain extent, but for the most part,

00:12:19.020 they come across as, like, buffoonish.

00:12:21.160 So Dugan's model tries to combine, I would say,

00:12:24.500 the anti-colonialist impulse,

00:12:26.980 but with being rooted intelligently in the thoughtful, deep sources

00:12:33.400 of all of these intellectual tendencies, intellectual, yeah.

00:12:38.900 For example, he had a lecture course in Russian,

00:12:41.320 not available in English, unfortunately,

00:12:43.240 on a school of thinkers called the phenomenologists,

00:12:47.220 where he went into detail about sort of phenomenological interpretations

00:12:49.940 of science and things like that.

00:12:51.240 So he's not just buffoonishly rejecting Western colonial imperialism,

00:12:55.900 but it does follow from his political pluralism

00:12:58.200 that our intellectual models of the world should also be plural.

00:13:02.280 And time, our interpretation of time, would be a part of that.

00:13:06.620 Yeah, and I think it's important for people

00:13:08.840 who do understand Dugan as a political actor

00:13:12.120 with a very particular geopolitical agenda

00:13:15.200 to understand that maybe you do think

00:13:19.620 that these arguments are completely opportunistic

00:13:22.080 and they are just there to forward

00:13:23.720 kind of his understanding of kind of how the world should be.

00:13:26.840 But I want you to understand that these ideas precede Dugan,

00:13:30.100 and they were often advanced by people who weren't anti-colonious.

00:13:34.740 For instance, Oswald Spangler spends lots of time

00:13:37.800 in Decline of the West explaining that art, math, and science

00:13:42.740 are particular to cultures.

00:13:44.260 He talks about how the Greeks could not do certain types of math

00:13:50.080 because their metaphysical animating spirit,

00:13:53.440 their understanding of the world around them,

00:13:56.280 simply wouldn't allow them to grasp certain mathematical concepts.

00:13:58.660 And so that how all of these things

00:14:02.060 that are supposed to be objective,

00:14:03.520 these disciplines that are supposed to be objective pieces of knowledge,

00:14:06.580 are still inextricable from the cultures that practice them.

00:14:12.000 And so Dugan's assertion here,

00:14:13.840 while you could read this as anti-colonial,

00:14:16.320 you could see this as an attack on kind of American empire

00:14:20.340 or Western hegemony,

00:14:22.120 it is something that has been advanced by people

00:14:24.420 who did not have that agenda at all.

00:14:26.340 So while you might say he's only picking it for that reason,

00:14:30.680 if you're kind of thinking he's nefarious in this way,

00:14:33.180 he is still drawing on sources of people

00:14:35.280 who did not have that agenda.

00:14:37.440 Yeah, I think we could even take a step further

00:14:40.020 and state the case more strongly,

00:14:42.060 which is that some of the people who recognized

00:14:43.780 the crisis of the sciences,

00:14:46.100 the difficulty of rooting objective mathematical science

00:14:50.000 in the fact of subjective human experience.

00:14:53.280 For example, Husserl,

00:14:54.140 who has written about this in the Crisis of the European Sciences,

00:14:57.580 not only was he not anti-colonialist, let's say,

00:15:00.040 in the case of Spangler,

00:15:01.100 maybe there's still some anti-Western position from the right

00:15:04.440 or something like that.

00:15:05.120 Okay, there are right-wing anti-bourgeois, anti-capitalists,

00:15:08.780 you know, who are,

00:15:09.480 they criticize the West from that perspective.

00:15:11.780 But Husserl was a defender

00:15:13.480 of great Western European modernity

00:15:16.900 in its philosophical roots and philosophical fruition.

00:15:21.460 And even he recognized,

00:15:22.640 and this is important not only for Dugan,

00:15:24.600 in other words,

00:15:25.040 not only for people who are criticizing the West

00:15:27.360 from outside of it,

00:15:28.360 but even for defenders of liberal democracy

00:15:30.600 to a certain extent,

00:15:31.440 like Leo Strauss,

00:15:32.420 who was very much indebted to Husserl.

00:15:34.920 You're exactly right

00:15:35.900 that the problems are philosophical problems.

00:15:37.780 They have a political dimension,

00:15:39.420 but that's secondary.

00:15:40.780 Because whether you're in the West

00:15:42.280 as a defender of the West

00:15:43.420 or outside of the West

00:15:44.300 as an enemy of the West

00:15:45.280 or anywhere in between,

00:15:46.340 the problems remain problems.

00:15:48.440 How do you understand

00:15:49.560 the nature of scientific life?

00:15:51.560 How do you deal with the question

00:15:52.880 of the foundation of the sciences?

00:15:54.880 And you're exactly right.

00:15:56.060 There's a tradition

00:15:56.680 well within Western philosophical canon

00:16:00.120 dealing with those questions.

00:16:01.980 But then how you end up answering them,

00:16:03.540 what you do with them,

00:16:04.400 where you land after having raised them,

00:16:06.200 that's where all the variation comes in.

00:16:08.560 Now, near the end of this chapter,

00:16:10.120 he talks about political forms

00:16:11.460 that are not connected to time and progress.

00:16:14.700 And it's interesting

00:16:17.520 because he is saying that basically

00:16:19.580 this is all of the forms that we have now.

00:16:21.640 All of the modern forms

00:16:23.000 make certain demands on time and progress.

00:16:27.280 Do you think that the fourth political theory,

00:16:30.300 and obviously he uses this as kind of a working thing,

00:16:33.800 what does that look like?

00:16:35.740 Or is there an indication

00:16:37.160 of what that looks like

00:16:38.220 where the theory itself

00:16:39.960 is completely uncoupled from time and progress?

00:16:42.560 Because wouldn't there have to be

00:16:44.160 some understanding of what progress looks like

00:16:46.480 inside the political theory

00:16:47.860 for it to have any prescriptive power?

00:16:51.960 So yes, in the sense that you're getting closer

00:16:54.860 or further away from some target.

00:16:56.840 So if we call progress,

00:16:58.240 you're getting closer to your target,

00:17:00.920 then as far as any political theory

00:17:04.200 sets up a direction

00:17:05.480 and you can be closer or further away

00:17:07.640 from the end or from the target,

00:17:10.000 then there's going to be progress.

00:17:10.880 But it's different in the sense

00:17:12.680 there's two different meanings of the word progress

00:17:14.620 because one is you're getting closer to the goal

00:17:16.840 or to the target that you've set yourself.

00:17:18.600 And another one is that you've interpreted time itself

00:17:21.320 as unfolding in a unidirectional linear way

00:17:24.580 where the further along you are in time and so on,

00:17:26.900 you know, there's more truth revealed

00:17:28.080 or more justice revealed or something.

00:17:29.440 So I think that it is possible

00:17:31.220 to reject the progressive view of time

00:17:33.580 and still to have goals

00:17:35.660 that you're closer or further towards

00:17:37.440 in any given case.

00:17:39.500 Again, I think the easiest way to see it

00:17:41.660 is that the question

00:17:43.260 of what constitutes progress is contested

00:17:45.560 and therefore there can be different kinds

00:17:47.420 of directionality set up.

00:17:50.120 So a nice point of reference.

00:17:52.420 Okay, I'm going to tell you something

00:17:53.520 that I like to do when I read Dugan

00:17:55.040 and that I personally have found helpful.

00:17:57.100 Other people may want to do this

00:17:58.420 with another author

00:17:59.600 than the one that I did it with,

00:18:00.780 but that's correlating Dugan's thought

00:18:02.640 to other thinkers

00:18:03.560 who are more familiar to us somehow

00:18:06.020 because Dugan is this, you know,

00:18:07.560 Russian figure drawing on these sources

00:18:09.220 and it's not easy to place him necessarily

00:18:12.240 in all cases into our coordinate system.

00:18:16.000 But I think about Leo Strauss, for example,

00:18:18.780 a scholar of the history of political philosophy

00:18:20.440 is dearly important to me.

00:18:21.920 I recommend that everybody studies Strauss

00:18:23.520 and learns from him

00:18:24.240 and read Strauss and Dugan together.

00:18:26.980 So Strauss had an essay

00:18:28.020 called Progress or Return

00:18:29.420 where he too distinguished

00:18:31.040 between two orientations towards time,

00:18:34.740 one that sees, let's say,

00:18:36.660 the better place in the future

00:18:37.820 and one that sees the good life

00:18:40.000 in its repentance

00:18:40.860 and it's turning around,

00:18:42.740 turning away, turning back,

00:18:44.660 going to the better origins

00:18:47.120 and roots of our tradition

00:18:48.540 as opposed to gradually getting alienated

00:18:51.020 from them, forgetting them

00:18:52.660 and all of that.

00:18:55.340 So the idea that you can have

00:18:56.700 these different orientations towards time,

00:18:58.400 as you said, it's not just in Strauss,

00:19:00.100 excuse me, it's not just in Dugan,

00:19:01.840 it's also in Strauss

00:19:02.520 and it shows you the possibility

00:19:03.700 of these different ways.

00:19:05.840 And you can look,

00:19:06.460 like he says in another chapter,

00:19:07.980 we'll probably have an opportunity

00:19:09.260 to discuss it,

00:19:10.180 just look at some of the groups today

00:19:12.400 existing on the world stage

00:19:14.120 who repudiate the logic of modernity

00:19:16.300 as fundamentalists, for example,

00:19:18.600 you know, who don't want to have anything

00:19:20.420 to do with not even the postmodern,

00:19:22.380 but just the modern.

00:19:23.740 So those competing interpretations of time

00:19:26.880 are viable

00:19:28.120 and so your point is well taken as well.

00:19:30.660 They still have some directionality in them

00:19:32.600 and in that sense,

00:19:33.540 progress in another meaning.

00:19:35.940 Gotcha.

00:19:36.940 All right.

00:19:37.200 So our next chapter is on globalization

00:19:39.560 and its enemies.

00:19:41.220 And he kind of starts by framing

00:19:43.760 what he calls the New World Order,

00:19:45.980 which is kind of the Western liberal democratic empire.

00:19:50.440 And he says that it's advanced through,

00:19:53.020 I think, a lot of things

00:19:53.640 that people are now familiar with,

00:19:55.220 you know, free markets, democracy, human rights.

00:19:58.960 And it's focused very much on the transition

00:20:02.260 from kind of the classical nation state,

00:20:06.300 like the Westvalian system

00:20:07.740 to kind of the post nation state world.

00:20:12.120 And he identifies three main camps

00:20:15.840 inside this force of globalization.

00:20:19.060 He says one are kind of the neoconservatives

00:20:21.740 and the neoconservatives are interested

00:20:23.800 in an imperial core

00:20:25.360 that is prosperous and benefits from the empire

00:20:28.320 while not caring much about kind of the outside world,

00:20:31.940 the things that lay beyond it.

00:20:33.440 And then there are the kind of the multilateralists

00:20:37.060 who are those who kind of want to bring everyone along

00:20:40.020 for the ride.

00:20:41.220 This is kind of the more of the Barack Obama

00:20:43.500 or American Democratic Party

00:20:45.180 who think that you should assemble

00:20:48.320 kind of this global empire,

00:20:49.860 but do it in an inclusive way.

00:20:52.200 And then finally,

00:20:53.180 he identifies kind of the accelerationist wing

00:20:56.620 of the globalists,

00:20:57.760 which are those who are trying to push us

00:21:00.140 to kind of this new world order,

00:21:02.460 this global government's as quick as possible.

00:21:04.580 And he names people kind of like George Soros.

00:21:06.940 I think this is also where you put like,

00:21:08.820 you know,

00:21:09.580 the,

00:21:09.960 the,

00:21:10.420 what can I suddenly think of the guy?

00:21:15.320 I'm sorry?

00:21:16.440 Yes.

00:21:16.920 Thank you.

00:21:17.580 I was like the supervillain guy

00:21:19.620 who wears,

00:21:20.260 who wears the,

00:21:21.220 the muumuu from,

00:21:22.140 from that Sylvester Stallone movie.

00:21:24.820 But yeah,

00:21:25.100 no,

00:21:25.400 that's who I was thinking of.

00:21:26.360 Thank you.

00:21:27.060 But yeah,

00:21:27.540 so these are,

00:21:28.100 these are kind of his three basic groups

00:21:30.500 that are going to be contending

00:21:32.020 when it comes to the,

00:21:34.340 the pro globalization side.

00:21:36.660 Could you talk a little bit about his understanding

00:21:39.060 of,

00:21:39.700 of these two groups

00:21:41.460 and how they interact

00:21:42.480 and what their goals are?

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00:22:15.380 Yeah,

00:22:15.940 well,

00:22:16.140 you gave a nice summary of it.

00:22:17.340 So you have neoconservatives,

00:22:18.660 the Democratic Party,

00:22:19.780 basically,

00:22:20.380 and the ultra globalists.

00:22:22.060 And one of the nice things,

00:22:23.000 first of all,

00:22:23.360 I think it's helpful that he delineates

00:22:25.020 those three tendencies,

00:22:26.040 all of which we can see.

00:22:27.780 And that he shows that they all,

00:22:29.600 even though they differ slightly,

00:22:31.480 like the imperial versus multilateral

00:22:34.120 versus radical globalism,

00:22:36.360 they're all,

00:22:37.660 it's all the American project.

00:22:39.540 It's firing on all cylinders.

00:22:41.060 You have all three of these things happening.

00:22:43.840 All three tendencies are represented.

00:22:46.480 And opposition to them

00:22:48.340 can take the form of opposition

00:22:50.080 to all three of them.

00:22:51.340 So it's not like you're either

00:22:52.480 on the neocon side

00:22:53.860 or on the Democrat side

00:22:54.940 or on the globalist side.

00:22:56.140 You can see the neocons,

00:22:57.540 the Democrats and the globalists

00:22:58.700 as of a piece

00:22:59.680 and try to see

00:23:00.880 that they're all tending

00:23:02.660 towards a certain kind of

00:23:04.060 global unipolarity

00:23:05.760 because even multilateralism

00:23:07.400 is not multipolarity.

00:23:08.980 It's still America centric, 0.97

00:23:10.600 just pulling the allies

00:23:11.520 into the picture.

00:23:12.920 So that's a nice analysis.

00:23:14.460 I think it helps us to

00:23:15.420 to see how we can distinguish

00:23:17.100 these various tendencies

00:23:18.160 and so on.

00:23:19.440 And I think he's accurate

00:23:21.280 to a certain extent

00:23:22.540 in setting it up that way.

00:23:23.880 It shows that the aims

00:23:24.700 of the neocons,

00:23:25.560 the aims of the Democrats

00:23:26.380 are not necessarily

00:23:27.140 so far removed

00:23:28.120 from one another,

00:23:29.660 all of which is helpful.

00:23:31.880 And he's updated

00:23:32.960 some of these analyses,

00:23:34.100 let's say in the book

00:23:34.840 called The Great Awakening

00:23:36.000 versus The Great Reset,

00:23:37.160 where he talks about

00:23:38.280 Klaus Schwab

00:23:39.060 and the World Economic Forum

00:23:41.140 and the idea

00:23:42.000 of the globalist agenda

00:23:42.920 as part of a great reset.

00:23:44.540 But one of the things

00:23:45.280 that I also think

00:23:45.940 is interesting is that

00:23:46.940 a lot of this checks out.

00:23:49.360 Like, you know,

00:23:49.660 this was written 2000.

00:23:51.340 I think the original Russian 0.99

00:23:52.520 was 2009.

00:23:53.400 The translation is 2012.

00:23:55.140 And as you read the

00:23:57.020 what he writes

00:23:58.380 about the war

00:23:58.880 for the world order

00:23:59.640 and the American factions

00:24:00.700 that are involved,

00:24:01.820 still kind of checks out.

00:24:03.200 You know, you can see

00:24:03.940 all of these tendencies

00:24:04.760 represented and so too

00:24:07.220 the opposition to them

00:24:08.300 in the way that he delineates

00:24:09.420 it in the next couple of sections.

00:24:11.840 Yeah, I think it's interesting

00:24:13.180 that he talks about

00:24:14.120 how all of these

00:24:14.940 are being pursued

00:24:15.820 simultaneously.

00:24:17.920 And so they kind of all move,

00:24:19.580 like you said,

00:24:20.020 they share a significant

00:24:21.580 amount of overlap.

00:24:23.040 Obviously, they have common goals,

00:24:24.980 but they're also competing.

00:24:26.860 And this is where

00:24:27.360 a lot of people,

00:24:28.240 you know,

00:24:28.780 Yarvin used to call these,

00:24:30.120 he identified many

00:24:30.860 of these factions,

00:24:31.680 called them red and blue empire

00:24:33.240 inside the American government.

00:24:34.620 But very similar

00:24:36.060 kind of breakdown

00:24:36.920 of kind of the Pentagon

00:24:38.880 versus the State Department

00:24:40.220 was kind of the internal

00:24:42.160 political struggle.

00:24:43.240 but I think it's important

00:24:44.460 for people to understand

00:24:45.320 that one of the reasons

00:24:47.460 we continue to see tension

00:24:49.180 and one of the reasons

00:24:50.280 that we continue to see

00:24:51.340 conflicting narratives

00:24:52.860 inside our elite structure

00:24:55.340 is that our elites

00:24:56.020 are not one unified mass.

00:24:58.000 They aren't one set of people

00:25:00.100 with one goals,

00:25:01.340 all working from the same

00:25:02.600 kind of crib sheet,

00:25:03.780 you know,

00:25:03.920 the same conspiracy theory,

00:25:05.220 cabal handing everything down.

00:25:06.620 They do appropriate power

00:25:10.240 in similar ways

00:25:11.180 because the nature

00:25:13.260 of kind of our

00:25:14.080 mass managerial states

00:25:15.960 are to expand in this way.

00:25:18.260 This is how power is accrued

00:25:20.520 as power centralizes.

00:25:22.160 And so they're all seeking

00:25:23.060 to accumulate power

00:25:24.380 through similar mechanisms,

00:25:25.560 but because they have

00:25:26.420 individual distinct interests

00:25:28.640 inside that kind of elite collective,

00:25:31.180 we do see this back and forth.

00:25:33.180 And that's why those tensions

00:25:34.540 can spark off of each other,

00:25:36.460 even though it does feel

00:25:37.480 like everyone is moving

00:25:38.600 in a very similar direction.

00:25:42.360 But that said,

00:25:43.420 he also...

00:25:44.240 So I just want to say one thing.

00:25:45.900 I don't know,

00:25:46.660 like for me,

00:25:47.200 this was helpful when I read it,

00:25:48.120 but one of the benefits

00:25:50.200 of this analysis

00:25:51.060 is that you zoom out

00:25:52.900 beyond just the factions

00:25:55.380 within the American state

00:25:57.700 and you begin to see

00:25:59.060 how they're perceived,

00:26:00.920 again, as of a piece

00:26:02.240 by the various players outside.

00:26:04.900 And, you know,

00:26:05.620 it raises the question

00:26:06.580 how significant

00:26:08.440 the internal differences are

00:26:09.780 if there is some momentum

00:26:11.460 growing outside of that context

00:26:14.420 as like a united front

00:26:15.880 of opposition

00:26:16.460 against all three of them,

00:26:18.020 which they may be or not.

00:26:20.700 But he does point,

00:26:21.720 you know,

00:26:21.860 he does say,

00:26:22.520 the United States

00:26:23.520 is the center of these movements.

00:26:24.800 The United States

00:26:25.360 is clearly the superpower,

00:26:27.520 clearly the hyperpower,

00:26:29.020 you know,

00:26:29.340 clearly a lot depends

00:26:30.460 on what happens there

00:26:31.360 and what happens

00:26:31.880 in relationship

00:26:32.400 to what the U.S.

00:26:33.740 is doing

00:26:34.380 and the ideas

00:26:35.180 that it's developing.

00:26:36.100 So I think the analysis

00:26:37.600 is pretty good in that sense.

00:26:39.340 Yep, absolutely.

00:26:40.400 And then he lays out

00:26:41.440 kind of four types

00:26:43.060 of opposition

00:26:44.700 or interaction

00:26:45.620 with globalization

00:26:47.260 at the moment.

00:26:48.820 And he has those nations

00:26:51.520 that are basically

00:26:52.080 just trying to become friendly

00:26:53.480 with the New World Order,

00:26:56.360 those that are willing

00:26:57.980 to cooperate

00:26:58.640 and open themselves up

00:26:59.740 more or less freely

00:27:00.840 to the cultural,

00:27:03.580 technological,

00:27:04.440 and all other demands

00:27:05.660 placed on them

00:27:06.440 kind of by the globalized order.

00:27:09.060 There are those

00:27:09.600 that are willing

00:27:10.260 to cooperate

00:27:11.960 but aren't willing

00:27:13.080 to change.

00:27:13.720 So he puts people

00:27:14.700 like Saudi Arabia 0.84

00:27:15.900 into this

00:27:18.020 or, you know,

00:27:18.780 states that are

00:27:20.080 wanting to keep

00:27:21.120 their more traditional

00:27:22.160 or particular societies

00:27:24.000 but are willing

00:27:25.200 to provide key things

00:27:27.540 that the global order needs.

00:27:31.020 I don't know

00:27:31.580 if he says this particularly

00:27:32.480 but it seems like

00:27:33.100 those states

00:27:33.540 are kind of depending on

00:27:34.600 they're playing a game

00:27:35.620 with time

00:27:36.180 because eventually

00:27:36.840 if the global order

00:27:37.660 doesn't need them anymore

00:27:38.680 it doesn't have to respect

00:27:39.900 their boundaries.

00:27:40.800 Like basically

00:27:41.540 their ability

00:27:42.160 to play the game

00:27:43.140 and not get consumed

00:27:44.880 by the global order

00:27:46.620 is based on their inability

00:27:48.800 to kind of be discarded

00:27:50.340 at the moment.

00:27:51.540 They're too important

00:27:52.420 to the project.

00:27:53.260 They provide some key resource

00:27:54.600 or something else

00:27:55.380 that allows them

00:27:56.340 to kind of be hedged

00:27:57.080 against it.

00:27:58.160 Then he has a third category

00:27:59.860 which is those

00:28:00.780 that take what works

00:28:02.200 in the Western world

00:28:03.840 and kind of filters out

00:28:07.200 some of the things

00:28:07.660 that work from those

00:28:08.220 that don't

00:28:08.800 and he puts Russia

00:28:09.600 in this category.

00:28:10.860 And then the fourth one

00:28:11.580 or those that are

00:28:12.180 in direct hostile

00:28:13.120 opposition

00:28:14.140 these are places

00:28:15.100 like North Korea 0.68

00:28:16.120 obviously.

00:28:17.940 And so I just

00:28:18.700 wanted to get your thoughts

00:28:20.300 on those categories.

00:28:22.180 Do you think Russia

00:28:22.720 is really in category three?

00:28:25.720 I think that's a little hopeful

00:28:26.980 for him in some places

00:28:28.180 and what do you think

00:28:28.680 about some of the other

00:28:29.520 categories and positions

00:28:30.800 that they're in?

00:28:32.080 So I would say

00:28:32.780 that now

00:28:33.440 Russia has crossed 0.94

00:28:34.680 the Rubicon

00:28:35.720 even from Dugan's

00:28:37.160 point of view

00:28:37.660 and it has moved

00:28:38.440 from category three

00:28:39.360 to category four

00:28:40.240 which means that

00:28:41.360 Russia is now 0.89

00:28:41.960 one of those states

00:28:42.640 that tries to oppose

00:28:43.620 the U.S. directly

00:28:44.300 rejecting Western values

00:28:46.020 unipolarity

00:28:46.720 and U.S. Western hegemony.

00:28:48.380 So I think that

00:28:49.280 in some sense

00:28:50.700 that's the significance

00:28:51.500 of the Ukraine war

00:28:52.680 for Dugan

00:28:53.380 is that it was

00:28:54.260 a decisive shift

00:28:55.300 from the third

00:28:58.040 to the fourth group

00:28:58.880 and that now

00:29:00.100 it has sort of

00:29:00.880 taken a full-throated

00:29:02.280 multipolar position

00:29:04.420 like it hadn't done before.

00:29:05.600 But I think he's right

00:29:06.740 and he's talked

00:29:07.080 about this elsewhere

00:29:07.760 as has Huntington

00:29:09.200 and Strauss

00:29:09.720 excuse me

00:29:10.340 Dugan refers to that

00:29:11.260 like strategic modernization

00:29:13.200 you know

00:29:13.580 modernization

00:29:14.280 without Westernization

00:29:15.320 trying to preserve

00:29:16.640 some modicum

00:29:17.800 of sovereignty

00:29:18.420 but you can only do it

00:29:20.400 you know

00:29:21.160 not every state

00:29:22.080 is powerful enough

00:29:22.960 to defend its sovereignty

00:29:24.280 vis-a-vis other

00:29:25.340 centers of power

00:29:26.220 because as you said

00:29:27.680 you have to cooperate

00:29:28.520 you know

00:29:29.200 you basically

00:29:29.920 some of these countries

00:29:31.180 are just trying to

00:29:32.380 yeah last

00:29:33.500 long enough

00:29:34.580 to be able to get

00:29:35.660 out of the

00:29:36.240 situation

00:29:37.200 with some

00:29:37.820 shred of their 1.00

00:29:38.700 sovereignty intact

00:29:39.580 so it's a question

00:29:40.800 like he puts it here

00:29:41.760 nation states

00:29:42.860 seeking to preserve

00:29:43.640 their sovereignty

00:29:44.200 in the face of

00:29:44.760 U.S. Western

00:29:45.300 hegemonic

00:29:45.800 or globalist

00:29:46.600 strategies

00:29:47.180 and some places

00:29:49.320 depending on their

00:29:50.380 leadership

00:29:50.820 depending on their

00:29:51.740 mood

00:29:52.100 depending on their

00:29:53.300 capabilities

00:29:54.020 they may decide

00:29:55.540 to just throw

00:29:56.400 their hat in

00:29:57.080 with the globalist

00:29:57.980 transformation

00:29:58.680 of their society

00:29:59.620 in other words

00:30:00.320 there are some

00:30:00.840 countries that will

00:30:01.620 just buy into

00:30:02.380 the Great Reset

00:30:03.140 or that don't

00:30:04.460 believe they need

00:30:05.200 to preserve

00:30:05.700 their sovereignty

00:30:06.280 maybe they also

00:30:07.040 see sovereignty

00:30:08.120 of nation states

00:30:09.060 as an outdated

00:30:09.780 relic

00:30:10.240 and they want

00:30:11.140 to become

00:30:11.620 post-national

00:30:12.440 states

00:30:13.020 they want to

00:30:13.540 plug into

00:30:14.100 the globalist

00:30:15.480 network

00:30:16.600 but those

00:30:17.580 countries that

00:30:18.260 don't

00:30:18.780 I think it's

00:30:19.560 fair to

00:30:20.300 categorize them

00:30:21.840 you know

00:30:22.300 the countries

00:30:22.980 that can preserve

00:30:23.620 some sovereignty

00:30:24.360 but must cooperate

00:30:25.240 that can preserve

00:30:26.140 much more

00:30:27.280 you know

00:30:27.720 but still cooperate

00:30:28.500 and the ones

00:30:28.960 that are openly

00:30:29.560 hostile

00:30:29.940 and yeah

00:30:30.740 I would say

00:30:31.180 the key change

00:30:31.800 is just that

00:30:32.260 Russia has moved 0.87

00:30:33.020 given the last

00:30:35.100 year

00:30:36.040 and a bit

00:30:36.880 and the tendencies

00:30:38.180 that have been

00:30:38.560 building for longer

00:30:39.200 than that

00:30:39.580 but in particular

00:30:40.260 the new round

00:30:42.600 of hostilities

00:30:43.100 I think has moved

00:30:43.840 Russia to

00:30:44.380 category four

00:30:45.140 yeah I think

00:30:46.380 it's hard to deny

00:30:47.180 at this point

00:30:47.600 of course

00:30:47.880 can't predict that

00:30:49.060 you know

00:30:49.400 over a decade ago

00:30:50.160 when he writes

00:30:50.580 the book

00:30:50.940 but I think

00:30:52.680 well he had said

00:30:53.380 so

00:30:54.160 his analysis

00:30:56.040 of Putin

00:30:57.240 in those years

00:30:58.080 like he's got a book

00:30:58.760 called Putin

00:30:59.220 versus Putin

00:30:59.800 for example

00:31:00.360 and he's also

00:31:01.860 wrote about this

00:31:02.400 in his second

00:31:02.840 Heidegger book

00:31:03.380 he always

00:31:04.280 consistently

00:31:05.120 as far as I can tell

00:31:06.100 analyzed Russia

00:31:07.540 I mean he wanted

00:31:08.420 Russia to become 0.55

00:31:09.480 fourth

00:31:11.120 let's say

00:31:11.420 category four

00:31:12.040 okay

00:31:12.320 Eurasian

00:31:13.000 a distinct

00:31:13.800 civilization

00:31:14.500 therefore something

00:31:15.280 that throws down

00:31:15.860 the gauntlet

00:31:16.260 to unipolarity

00:31:16.920 but he always

00:31:17.800 interpreted

00:31:18.260 the Russian

00:31:18.660 Federation

00:31:19.180 and Vladimir

00:31:20.420 Putin's policy

00:31:21.340 as wavering

00:31:22.880 between those

00:31:23.700 two directions

00:31:24.720 between on one

00:31:25.720 hand the thesis

00:31:26.300 that Russia 0.72

00:31:26.800 is a distinct

00:31:27.460 civilization

00:31:27.920 and on the other

00:31:28.940 hand the thesis

00:31:29.500 that Russia 0.72

00:31:30.020 is a European

00:31:30.780 country

00:31:31.500 and so

00:31:32.620 Putin versus

00:31:33.220 Putin

00:31:33.540 the name

00:31:33.840 of one

00:31:34.080 of those

00:31:34.340 books

00:31:34.640 said

00:31:35.180 you know

00:31:35.760 you have

00:31:36.100 this solar

00:31:36.820 and lunar

00:31:37.200 Putin

00:31:37.500 you have

00:31:37.920 the Eurasian

00:31:38.580 and the

00:31:38.880 Atlanticist

00:31:39.400 Putin

00:31:39.680 you know

00:31:40.000 you've got

00:31:40.260 the liberals

00:31:40.700 in and around

00:31:41.380 him who are

00:31:42.280 keeping him

00:31:42.720 from following

00:31:43.420 what would be

00:31:44.740 his destiny

00:31:45.260 here to take

00:31:45.800 Russia into

00:31:46.420 Eurasian

00:31:48.020 identity

00:31:48.440 so he was

00:31:50.220 aware

00:31:50.540 let's say

00:31:51.200 even though he

00:31:51.960 wanted Russia 0.99

00:31:52.480 to go in that

00:31:52.860 direction

00:31:53.120 he was aware

00:31:53.560 of the fact

00:31:53.920 that it was

00:31:54.160 on the fence

00:31:54.620 but what's

00:31:55.300 changed is that

00:31:55.920 it's no longer

00:31:56.400 on the fence

00:31:56.980 you know

00:31:57.420 now it

00:31:58.380 clearly has

00:31:59.240 put

00:31:59.560 and another

00:32:00.960 thing that's

00:32:01.360 interesting

00:32:01.660 Russia having 0.96

00:32:02.360 taken the

00:32:03.220 position that

00:32:03.860 it's an

00:32:04.140 independent

00:32:04.460 civilization

00:32:05.060 and not a

00:32:05.660 European

00:32:05.900 country

00:32:06.460 is now

00:32:07.280 beginning to

00:32:07.800 develop some

00:32:08.380 of the policy

00:32:09.080 documents

00:32:09.720 to support

00:32:10.660 that self

00:32:11.320 interpretation

00:32:11.800 which is

00:32:12.620 something

00:32:12.840 Dugan's been

00:32:13.280 writing about

00:32:13.680 and commenting

00:32:14.060 on lately

00:32:14.520 so our

00:32:16.740 next chapter

00:32:17.420 is conservatism

00:32:18.780 and post

00:32:19.660 modernism

00:32:20.380 most people

00:32:22.680 who are

00:32:23.980 who see

00:32:24.720 themselves as

00:32:25.240 American

00:32:25.480 conservatives

00:32:26.100 will have

00:32:27.100 a hard time

00:32:27.760 with kind

00:32:28.280 of just

00:32:28.560 the beginning

00:32:28.900 of this

00:32:29.400 but we've

00:32:30.320 already talked

00:32:30.760 about it

00:32:31.060 so we don't

00:32:31.300 have to

00:32:31.480 belabor too

00:32:31.940 much

00:32:32.180 he just

00:32:32.500 immediately

00:32:32.860 starts

00:32:33.240 we're already

00:32:33.800 post-modern

00:32:34.500 this has already

00:32:35.520 happened

00:32:35.960 we're already

00:32:36.480 through this

00:32:37.240 and so this

00:32:37.800 is something

00:32:38.180 that conservatives

00:32:39.020 have to learn

00:32:40.620 to interact

00:32:41.380 with

00:32:41.600 the question

00:32:41.980 is not

00:32:42.300 whether

00:32:42.620 to prevent

00:32:43.940 post-modernism

00:32:45.380 hold the line

00:32:46.420 against post-modernism

00:32:47.680 we're already

00:32:48.600 in that moment

00:32:49.480 and the only

00:32:50.060 thing to do

00:32:50.860 at this point

00:32:51.440 is to understand

00:32:52.080 as conservatives

00:32:52.820 how you will

00:32:54.260 interact

00:32:54.760 or work

00:32:55.720 within

00:32:56.160 post-modernity

00:32:57.840 yeah that's

00:33:00.080 right

00:33:00.260 no that's

00:33:03.020 all I just

00:33:03.520 want to say

00:33:03.900 you're right

00:33:04.960 about that

00:33:05.460 if I can just

00:33:05.940 make one quick

00:33:06.500 point about

00:33:06.920 the previous

00:33:07.280 chapter

00:33:07.600 I just

00:33:07.880 oh sure

00:33:08.300 sure

00:33:08.520 sorry

00:33:08.680 very quickly

00:33:09.440 because it's

00:33:09.960 a nice one

00:33:10.380 I think

00:33:10.640 worth mentioning

00:33:11.160 which is that

00:33:11.660 when he talks

00:33:12.800 about the

00:33:13.460 countries that

00:33:14.180 are opposed

00:33:14.760 to global

00:33:15.320 globalism

00:33:15.960 let's say

00:33:16.400 in some cases

00:33:17.600 opposed to

00:33:18.260 you know

00:33:18.740 American hegemony 0.67

00:33:19.420 in some cases

00:33:19.940 opposed to

00:33:20.400 the globalist

00:33:20.960 project

00:33:21.400 I like that

00:33:22.600 he distinguishes

00:33:23.260 between the

00:33:24.400 fact of

00:33:25.220 these states

00:33:25.920 but they lack

00:33:27.980 ideological coherence

00:33:29.460 so you can't

00:33:30.900 oppose globalist

00:33:31.840 ideology

00:33:32.380 without some

00:33:33.520 coherent

00:33:34.140 counter proposition

00:33:35.780 so to speak

00:33:36.420 but the

00:33:37.660 specific ideologies

00:33:39.000 of the states

00:33:40.360 like for example

00:33:41.060 you know

00:33:41.700 Iran is not 1.00

00:33:43.060 producing

00:33:44.140 a counter ideology

00:33:45.780 that can fight

00:33:47.000 globalism

00:33:47.600 at its own

00:33:48.180 level

00:33:48.500 you know

00:33:49.140 it's producing

00:33:49.700 some sort of

00:33:50.320 more particular

00:33:51.220 narrow

00:33:51.840 Islamic

00:33:52.900 anti-Americanism

00:33:53.800 so the question

00:33:54.660 is what about

00:33:55.300 what about

00:33:55.940 all of the

00:33:56.860 opponents of

00:33:57.340 globalism

00:33:57.840 is there some

00:33:58.640 political theory

00:33:59.620 or ideology

00:34:00.200 or counter proposal

00:34:01.200 that could unite

00:34:02.020 them

00:34:02.280 and it's interesting

00:34:03.120 because he says

00:34:03.640 the subnational

00:34:04.620 networks

00:34:05.540 have more

00:34:06.680 you know

00:34:07.060 they're more

00:34:07.420 theoretical

00:34:08.440 they develop

00:34:09.600 ideas and

00:34:10.160 ideologies

00:34:10.600 but they lack

00:34:11.200 state power

00:34:11.820 and the states

00:34:12.860 they possess

00:34:13.320 some sort of

00:34:13.880 power

00:34:14.100 especially

00:34:14.480 when they

00:34:15.120 unite together

00:34:16.320 in a block

00:34:16.920 but they lack

00:34:18.000 the ideological

00:34:18.820 dimension

00:34:20.000 so he

00:34:21.000 at some

00:34:21.360 point

00:34:21.640 I don't

00:34:21.960 remember

00:34:22.140 if it's

00:34:22.380 in this

00:34:22.600 chapter

00:34:22.860 or elsewhere

00:34:23.380 he says

00:34:24.400 you know

00:34:24.680 there can

00:34:25.040 be a genuine

00:34:25.620 possibility

00:34:26.320 for overcoming

00:34:27.200 globalist

00:34:28.480 ideology

00:34:28.900 if you're

00:34:29.760 able to

00:34:30.180 link

00:34:30.580 you know

00:34:31.940 a powerful

00:34:32.380 regional

00:34:33.540 block

00:34:34.100 with ideology

00:34:35.540 that is

00:34:36.180 at the same

00:34:36.760 somehow level

00:34:37.400 of generality

00:34:38.220 as globalism

00:34:39.360 is

00:34:39.500 so I think

00:34:39.880 partially what

00:34:40.500 Dugan is trying

00:34:40.960 to do in the

00:34:41.300 fourth political

00:34:41.660 theory is to

00:34:42.460 be the

00:34:43.560 developer

00:34:44.500 and the exporter

00:34:45.420 of an ideology

00:34:46.140 that actually

00:34:46.680 goes up

00:34:47.380 to the level

00:34:48.460 where you

00:34:48.760 could meet

00:34:49.080 globalist

00:34:49.600 ideology

00:34:50.200 in a fair

00:34:50.700 fight

00:34:51.040 because he

00:34:51.580 says all

00:34:51.960 the other

00:34:52.440 you know

00:34:53.200 anti-capitalist

00:34:54.100 freak show

00:34:54.620 type responses

00:34:55.660 are they have

00:34:56.660 the character

00:34:57.100 of a circus

00:34:57.780 they're not

00:34:58.380 very serious

00:34:59.060 they're like

00:34:59.480 a carnival

00:35:00.120 and you know

00:35:01.000 they don't

00:35:02.480 meet the

00:35:03.040 it's not a fair

00:35:03.740 fight between

00:35:04.420 them and

00:35:05.040 globalist

00:35:05.420 ideology

00:35:05.880 so you need

00:35:06.740 to develop

00:35:07.140 a fair fight

00:35:07.660 and that's

00:35:08.200 why even

00:35:08.620 like the book

00:35:09.140 great awakening

00:35:09.620 versus great

00:35:10.180 reset

00:35:10.460 it shows you

00:35:11.120 he's trying

00:35:11.580 to take

00:35:12.000 a set of

00:35:12.900 ideas

00:35:13.280 great awakening

00:35:13.880 back and

00:35:14.560 actually contest

00:35:15.160 the ideology

00:35:15.700 of the great

00:35:16.140 reset

00:35:16.500 in a fair

00:35:17.200 fight

00:35:17.500 so that

00:35:18.620 analysis is

00:35:19.180 good because

00:35:19.540 it's true

00:35:19.860 you can have

00:35:20.340 these states

00:35:21.260 that want to

00:35:21.660 preserve their

00:35:22.100 sovereignty

00:35:22.480 but they

00:35:23.160 lack a

00:35:24.420 vision or

00:35:25.680 a model

00:35:26.100 even as

00:35:26.540 Peter Thiel

00:35:27.000 has said

00:35:27.480 when he

00:35:27.740 talked about

00:35:28.100 models for

00:35:28.640 the future

00:35:29.200 you have

00:35:29.800 environmentalism

00:35:30.520 you've got

00:35:30.820 Greta Thunberg

00:35:31.520 you've got

00:35:31.940 Islamism

00:35:32.460 and you've

00:35:33.020 got sort

00:35:33.360 of like

00:35:33.600 cyborg

00:35:34.020 post-humanism

00:35:34.800 where is

00:35:35.560 a you know

00:35:36.180 a coherent

00:35:36.820 vision of

00:35:37.360 the future

00:35:37.740 that can

00:35:38.120 unite

00:35:38.460 humanity

00:35:39.640 en masse

00:35:40.220 against the

00:35:40.700 globalist

00:35:41.180 project

00:35:42.060 so that's

00:35:42.700 just another

00:35:43.060 component of

00:35:43.720 that chapter

00:35:44.100 that I thought

00:35:44.380 was worth

00:35:44.660 mentioning

00:35:44.980 but yeah

00:35:46.500 before we

00:35:49.660 move on

00:35:50.080 I'm glad

00:35:50.940 you brought

00:35:51.240 that up

00:35:51.600 because that

00:35:51.880 is something

00:35:52.180 I think

00:35:52.580 a lot

00:35:53.100 about

00:35:53.420 and I

00:35:53.860 want to

00:35:54.940 pick your

00:35:55.480 brain about

00:35:55.940 what Dugan

00:35:57.640 would be

00:35:57.900 saying there

00:35:58.360 because

00:35:58.860 so one

00:36:01.320 of the

00:36:01.560 things that

00:36:02.460 I think

00:36:02.820 you're really

00:36:03.420 running into

00:36:03.920 a lot of

00:36:04.540 people who

00:36:05.080 are maybe

00:36:05.720 more

00:36:05.960 nationalists

00:36:06.500 have already

00:36:06.820 realized that

00:36:07.480 in some

00:36:07.840 ways you

00:36:08.160 need a

00:36:08.480 global

00:36:09.060 nationalism

00:36:10.460 in order

00:36:11.200 to

00:36:11.800 resist

00:36:13.320 what's

00:36:13.800 happening

00:36:14.260 with

00:36:15.480 globalism

00:36:16.180 like you

00:36:16.500 said

00:36:16.700 you can't

00:36:17.440 have

00:36:17.720 all these

00:36:18.600 little

00:36:19.060 isolated

00:36:19.700 countries

00:36:21.140 with kind

00:36:21.680 of their

00:36:22.100 own

00:36:23.840 circus

00:36:25.640 theories

00:36:26.000 of how

00:36:26.300 to resist

00:36:26.760 this

00:36:27.100 they never

00:36:27.840 form anything

00:36:28.360 cohesive

00:36:28.840 they never

00:36:29.280 have the

00:36:29.540 ability

00:36:29.760 to push

00:36:30.120 back

00:36:30.520 but

00:36:31.520 if you're

00:36:32.980 creating

00:36:33.540 this

00:36:34.100 can you

00:36:34.780 create a

00:36:36.200 global theory

00:36:36.920 of particularism

00:36:37.960 or particular

00:36:38.940 preference

00:36:39.400 like can you

00:36:40.100 if

00:36:40.900 I guess

00:36:42.760 my point

00:36:43.100 being

00:36:43.420 isn't

00:36:44.160 isn't

00:36:44.180 the

00:36:44.340 ideology

00:36:44.920 itself

00:36:45.620 what

00:36:46.000 allows

00:36:46.700 the

00:36:47.240 human

00:36:47.760 cooperation

00:36:48.340 to

00:36:48.640 scale

00:36:49.240 and

00:36:50.380 so

00:36:51.320 in order

00:36:53.980 for

00:36:54.600 globalism

00:36:55.380 to take

00:36:55.820 hold

00:36:56.200 we had

00:36:56.580 to shape

00:36:57.000 humanity

00:36:57.540 in a very

00:36:58.120 particular

00:36:58.580 way

00:36:59.040 we had

00:36:59.380 to demand

00:37:00.040 the removal

00:37:00.940 of

00:37:01.320 particulars

00:37:02.440 we had

00:37:02.680 to demand

00:37:03.200 the removal

00:37:04.220 of regional

00:37:05.960 preferences

00:37:06.580 and interests

00:37:07.260 and shape

00:37:08.220 people in a

00:37:08.720 way that

00:37:09.080 would allow

00:37:09.360 them to be

00:37:09.820 wielded

00:37:10.460 en masse

00:37:11.340 and to be

00:37:11.820 managed

00:37:12.180 en masse

00:37:13.020 and if

00:37:14.700 we're going

00:37:15.040 to bring

00:37:15.780 a mass

00:37:16.860 strategy

00:37:17.380 against

00:37:17.840 that

00:37:18.240 can you

00:37:19.320 assemble

00:37:20.060 people

00:37:20.540 and wield

00:37:21.060 them

00:37:21.320 and manage

00:37:21.800 them

00:37:22.080 in a force

00:37:23.240 against

00:37:23.620 that force

00:37:24.320 without putting

00:37:25.160 them under

00:37:25.500 the same

00:37:25.880 level of

00:37:26.280 social engineering

00:37:27.080 that was

00:37:27.420 required by

00:37:28.040 globalism

00:37:28.600 to assemble

00:37:29.480 the leviathan

00:37:30.180 in the first

00:37:30.720 place

00:37:31.120 yeah so

00:37:32.520 that's obviously

00:37:33.120 a puzzle

00:37:33.640 and part

00:37:34.200 of the

00:37:34.420 problem

00:37:34.740 and Dugan's

00:37:35.320 suggestion

00:37:35.780 I would say

00:37:36.660 we have some

00:37:37.620 evidence for

00:37:38.200 how it would

00:37:38.660 play out

00:37:39.040 because you

00:37:39.400 have the idea

00:37:40.020 of a fourth

00:37:40.520 political

00:37:40.760 theory

00:37:41.120 as a

00:37:41.680 general

00:37:42.060 project

00:37:42.640 so we've

00:37:43.640 already

00:37:43.840 talked about

00:37:44.320 some of

00:37:44.620 the outlines

00:37:45.060 of the

00:37:45.320 general

00:37:45.560 project

00:37:45.960 right

00:37:46.180 new

00:37:46.420 concepts

00:37:46.880 of time

00:37:47.480 shifting

00:37:48.200 the

00:37:48.580 locus

00:37:49.080 of

00:37:49.380 interpretation

00:37:50.500 from the

00:37:51.040 individual

00:37:51.440 the class

00:37:52.260 the race

00:37:53.060 and the

00:37:53.340 state

00:37:53.620 to the

00:37:54.320 notion

00:37:54.800 of a

00:37:55.240 people

00:37:55.620 possibly

00:37:56.500 interpreted

00:37:56.920 through

00:37:57.120 Dasein

00:37:57.680 but these

00:37:58.040 other

00:37:58.320 you know

00:37:58.700 somehow

00:37:59.160 obscure

00:38:00.740 ways of

00:38:02.260 interpreting

00:38:02.620 it like

00:38:02.940 through the

00:38:03.300 imagination

00:38:03.880 and so on

00:38:05.000 so these

00:38:05.320 are like

00:38:05.600 general

00:38:06.140 parameters

00:38:07.540 for

00:38:08.160 interpretation

00:38:08.700 of plurality

00:38:09.340 but then

00:38:10.140 you have a

00:38:10.560 specific case

00:38:11.240 where he's

00:38:11.600 tried to

00:38:12.000 develop it

00:38:12.540 in its

00:38:12.840 application

00:38:13.380 namely

00:38:13.840 Russia

00:38:14.260 and you

00:38:14.920 also have

00:38:15.420 pockets

00:38:15.920 of adherence

00:38:16.960 of the

00:38:17.200 fourth

00:38:17.380 political

00:38:17.660 theory

00:38:17.960 elsewhere

00:38:18.400 for example

00:38:19.220 there's a

00:38:19.680 later this

00:38:20.200 month

00:38:20.460 a global

00:38:21.260 conference

00:38:21.700 on multipolarity

00:38:22.640 based on

00:38:23.080 Dugin's fourth

00:38:23.500 political theory

00:38:23.960 we're going to

00:38:24.320 have representatives

00:38:24.900 from all over

00:38:25.380 the world

00:38:25.680 they take

00:38:26.420 these general

00:38:27.060 ideas and

00:38:27.740 they apply

00:38:28.120 them to

00:38:28.460 their unique

00:38:28.940 case

00:38:29.400 so the

00:38:30.200 question is

00:38:30.740 you know

00:38:31.200 how well

00:38:31.780 is that sort

00:38:32.420 of translation

00:38:33.000 working

00:38:33.560 we see it

00:38:34.320 best in the

00:38:34.780 case of

00:38:35.100 Russia

00:38:35.360 because Dugin

00:38:36.000 himself being a

00:38:37.120 Russian has 0.90

00:38:37.520 developed it

00:38:38.060 there both at

00:38:38.740 the theoretical

00:38:39.180 and the

00:38:40.100 applied levels

00:38:41.000 but you know

00:38:42.360 they're Brazilian

00:38:42.900 adherents

00:38:43.500 Iranian

00:38:43.820 adherents

00:38:44.280 other adherents

00:38:44.780 of the

00:38:44.980 fourth

00:38:45.140 political

00:38:45.320 theory

00:38:45.560 who are

00:38:45.740 all trying

00:38:46.060 to modify

00:38:46.640 it

00:38:46.880 so what

00:38:47.860 is his

00:38:48.240 you know

00:38:48.740 his model

00:38:49.280 is there

00:38:50.660 are different

00:38:50.960 ways of

00:38:51.400 stating it

00:38:51.980 but it's

00:38:52.700 like people

00:38:53.740 should

00:38:54.240 I propose

00:38:56.400 Dugin says

00:38:57.100 in contrast

00:38:57.860 to nationalism

00:38:59.180 because nation

00:39:00.880 states cannot

00:39:01.480 be sufficient

00:39:02.120 players here

00:39:02.760 to fight

00:39:03.200 globalism

00:39:03.680 and in

00:39:04.560 opposition to

00:39:05.280 globalism

00:39:05.920 because that's

00:39:06.720 what by

00:39:07.460 assumption

00:39:07.780 here is the

00:39:08.660 target

00:39:09.120 civilizationalism

00:39:11.560 regional

00:39:13.080 blocks

00:39:13.720 great spaces

00:39:15.100 great powers

00:39:15.860 so more

00:39:17.160 than the

00:39:17.540 nation state

00:39:18.220 but less

00:39:18.920 than globalism

00:39:20.000 for example

00:39:20.880 Yoram Hazoni

00:39:21.700 who wrote

00:39:22.140 the book

00:39:22.480 Virtue of

00:39:22.960 Nationalism

00:39:23.500 who's also

00:39:24.040 fighting in

00:39:24.540 his own way

00:39:25.180 liberalism

00:39:26.200 on the basis

00:39:26.840 of the idea

00:39:27.440 that we need

00:39:28.220 to revive

00:39:28.840 certain

00:39:29.220 conservative

00:39:29.680 traditions

00:39:30.180 and national

00:39:31.520 conservatism

00:39:32.260 when he

00:39:33.060 Yoram Hazoni

00:39:33.860 lays this picture

00:39:34.600 out he says

00:39:35.100 tribes are too

00:39:36.140 small

00:39:36.600 and the

00:39:38.160 universalism

00:39:39.160 is too

00:39:39.440 big

00:39:39.740 we need

00:39:40.660 a sweet

00:39:41.000 spot

00:39:41.260 in the

00:39:41.500 middle

00:39:41.720 that sweet

00:39:42.740 spot

00:39:42.940 is

00:39:43.060 nation

00:39:43.300 states

00:39:43.660 basically

00:39:45.000 Dugan says

00:39:46.080 there's an

00:39:46.460 even sweeter

00:39:46.960 spot

00:39:47.360 between nation

00:39:48.440 states

00:39:48.860 and the

00:39:49.420 universal

00:39:49.780 region

00:39:50.120 and that's

00:39:50.700 civilizations

00:39:51.300 they're big

00:39:52.140 enough

00:39:52.700 regional blocks

00:39:53.900 are big

00:39:54.420 enough

00:39:54.740 to actually

00:39:55.340 become

00:39:55.800 poles

00:39:56.400 so it's

00:39:56.720 like a

00:39:56.980 regional

00:39:57.240 universalism

00:39:57.940 and in

00:39:58.740 this case

00:39:59.180 it preserves

00:39:59.920 I mean

00:40:00.740 it doesn't

00:40:01.160 preserve

00:40:01.480 everything

00:40:02.100 but it

00:40:02.780 preserves

00:40:03.180 some

00:40:03.400 possibility

00:40:03.940 of each

00:40:05.140 pool

00:40:05.980 each

00:40:06.200 civilization

00:40:06.780 each

00:40:07.060 regional

00:40:07.380 block

00:40:07.720 developing

00:40:08.580 its own

00:40:09.240 models

00:40:09.640 of world

00:40:10.080 interpretation

00:40:10.600 developing

00:40:11.140 its own

00:40:11.520 hierarchy

00:40:11.800 of values

00:40:12.420 developing

00:40:13.180 its own

00:40:13.520 vision

00:40:13.840 of itself

00:40:14.860 and its

00:40:15.160 place

00:40:15.400 in the

00:40:15.600 world

00:40:15.880 but in

00:40:17.560 a way

00:40:17.880 that is

00:40:18.340 effective

00:40:18.720 in a way

00:40:19.780 that is

00:40:20.100 sovereign

00:40:20.560 because one

00:40:20.960 of the

00:40:21.140 issues

00:40:21.380 with the

00:40:22.160 fiction

00:40:22.460 of national

00:40:23.260 sovereignty

00:40:23.920 is that

00:40:24.720 it is

00:40:25.040 precisely

00:40:25.440 that

00:40:25.820 a fiction

00:40:26.360 some

00:40:27.020 modern

00:40:27.280 nations

00:40:27.680 are not

00:40:28.200 sovereign

00:40:28.580 they're

00:40:28.880 vassals

00:40:29.380 whether we

00:40:30.100 like to

00:40:30.420 admit that

00:40:30.880 or not

00:40:31.360 and I

00:40:31.880 think

00:40:32.040 that's

00:40:32.300 obvious

00:40:32.580 to anybody

00:40:33.160 who's

00:40:33.420 examined

00:40:33.700 the question

00:40:34.100 adequately

00:40:34.620 you can

00:40:35.500 only be

00:40:36.500 sovereign

00:40:37.060 if you're

00:40:38.120 a big

00:40:38.520 dog

00:40:39.020 basically

00:40:39.520 so

00:40:40.200 civilizations

00:40:40.740 can be

00:40:41.600 big dogs

00:40:42.200 but nation

00:40:42.720 states

00:40:43.100 can only

00:40:44.020 you know

00:40:45.660 they can

00:40:45.920 only be

00:40:46.360 the wagging

00:40:47.460 tail

00:40:47.700 or whatever

00:40:48.060 so in

00:40:48.900 that case

00:40:49.400 that's

00:40:50.700 his model

00:40:51.100 and it's

00:40:51.660 not going

00:40:51.960 to be

00:40:52.160 equivalent

00:40:52.580 the way

00:40:53.100 he develops

00:40:53.640 it

00:40:53.800 people may

00:40:54.180 like this

00:40:54.520 or not

00:40:54.740 like this

00:40:55.140 our goal

00:40:55.580 I think

00:40:55.860 is just

00:40:56.140 to try

00:40:56.440 to understand

00:40:56.940 whether

00:40:57.140 it's

00:40:57.280 coherent

00:40:57.520 what he

00:40:58.000 means

00:40:58.260 and whether

00:40:58.480 it's

00:40:58.660 coherent

00:40:58.920 and feasible

00:40:59.300 but he

00:41:01.360 the Russian

00:41:02.340 model

00:41:02.840 won't be

00:41:03.960 the Iranian

00:41:04.680 model

00:41:05.100 won't be

00:41:05.640 the African

00:41:06.140 model

00:41:06.460 won't be

00:41:06.980 the American

00:41:07.560 model

00:41:07.920 or the

00:41:08.240 European

00:41:08.480 model

00:41:08.860 but what

00:41:09.640 made

00:41:09.880 possible

00:41:10.620 the plurality

00:41:11.780 of

00:41:12.000 civilizational

00:41:12.580 models

00:41:13.040 was as

00:41:13.560 it were

00:41:13.820 the meta

00:41:14.260 theory

00:41:14.960 of

00:41:15.440 civilizational

00:41:16.520 plurality

00:41:17.020 in the

00:41:17.240 first

00:41:17.400 place

00:41:17.740 excellent

00:41:19.680 okay

00:41:19.980 sorry

00:41:20.280 I cut

00:41:20.840 you off

00:41:21.140 talking

00:41:21.440 about

00:41:21.680 conservatism

00:41:22.360 and post

00:41:23.360 maternity

00:41:23.640 but I

00:41:24.080 just want

00:41:24.340 to step

00:41:24.620 in there

00:41:24.840 because

00:41:24.980 that is

00:41:25.220 a

00:41:25.340 project

00:41:25.700 or a

00:41:26.420 problem

00:41:26.940 I've

00:41:27.140 thought

00:41:27.300 a lot

00:41:27.600 about

00:41:27.860 and I

00:41:28.120 was

00:41:28.240 just

00:41:28.400 wondering

00:41:28.740 kind

00:41:29.020 of

00:41:29.200 expanding

00:41:29.860 on that

00:41:30.240 I think

00:41:30.500 would be

00:41:30.760 helpful

00:41:31.020 but

00:41:31.300 sorry

00:41:31.740 you were

00:41:31.980 saying

00:41:32.180 conservatives

00:41:32.660 and

00:41:32.860 post

00:41:33.080 modernity

00:41:33.540 yeah

00:41:34.480 so

00:41:34.680 just

00:41:35.000 following

00:41:35.580 what

00:41:35.760 you

00:41:35.880 said

00:41:36.120 he

00:41:36.300 opens

00:41:36.640 that

00:41:36.880 chapter

00:41:37.200 by saying

00:41:37.640 we

00:41:37.820 are

00:41:38.040 in

00:41:38.280 post

00:41:38.500 modernity

00:41:38.900 so

00:41:39.060 I

00:41:39.240 don't

00:41:39.420 know

00:41:39.720 how

00:41:40.480 many

00:41:40.660 conservatives

00:41:41.080 would

00:41:41.480 contest

00:41:41.960 that

00:41:42.260 fact

00:41:42.680 or

00:41:42.980 deny

00:41:43.600 it

00:41:43.860 I

00:41:43.960 think

00:41:44.200 when

00:41:44.660 you

00:41:44.800 see

00:41:44.960 the

00:41:45.100 conservative

00:41:45.460 discourse

00:41:45.880 online

00:41:46.360 anyways

00:41:46.760 everybody

00:41:47.440 who

00:41:47.680 looks

00:41:47.880 around

00:41:48.180 sees

00:41:48.480 that

00:41:48.660 something

00:41:48.940 is

00:41:49.180 amiss

00:41:49.520 something

00:41:49.920 is

00:41:50.100 awry

00:41:50.460 something

00:41:51.740 has

00:41:51.940 gone

00:41:52.080 off

00:41:52.340 and

00:41:52.540 that

00:41:52.720 is

00:41:52.940 you

00:41:53.220 know

00:41:53.280 you

00:41:53.360 put

00:41:53.640 that

00:41:53.800 all

00:41:54.020 into

00:41:54.240 the

00:41:54.420 whether

00:41:54.760 we

00:41:54.920 call

00:41:55.120 it

00:41:55.220 woke

00:41:55.460 or

00:41:55.600 whether

00:41:55.720 we

00:41:55.840 call

00:41:55.980 it

00:41:56.060 post

00:41:56.240 modern

00:41:56.520 something

00:41:56.880 has

00:41:57.100 changed

00:41:57.480 and

00:41:58.160 so

00:41:58.480 he

00:41:58.860 tries

00:41:59.140 to

00:41:59.280 understand

00:41:59.740 how

00:42:00.680 does

00:42:01.080 the

00:42:02.380 group

00:42:02.700 of

00:42:02.860 political

00:42:03.120 theories

00:42:03.440 that

00:42:03.640 we

00:42:03.800 call

00:42:04.360 conservative

00:42:04.880 how

00:42:06.400 can

00:42:06.700 it

00:42:06.820 respond

00:42:07.180 to

00:42:07.380 this

00:42:07.560 new

00:42:07.740 situation

00:42:08.200 and

00:42:08.920 what

00:42:09.420 I

00:42:09.540 like

00:42:09.680 about

00:42:09.860 this

00:42:10.020 chapter

00:42:10.260 too

00:42:10.520 is

00:42:10.760 for

00:42:11.020 people

00:42:11.360 for

00:42:12.320 some

00:42:12.540 people

00:42:12.840 like

00:42:13.040 when

00:42:13.160 I

00:42:13.280 first

00:42:13.480 read

00:42:13.660 this

00:42:13.840 conservatism

00:42:14.540 kind

00:42:14.860 of

00:42:15.000 meant

00:42:15.180 just

00:42:15.520 one

00:42:15.800 thing

00:42:16.120 you

00:42:17.340 know

00:42:17.460 there's

00:42:17.680 like

00:42:17.780 a

00:42:17.960 narrow

00:42:18.320 political

00:42:19.540 conservatism

00:42:20.380 and

00:42:20.960 this

00:42:21.140 chapter

00:42:21.400 shows

00:42:21.720 you

00:42:21.840 that

00:42:21.980 there

00:42:22.120 are

00:42:22.300 various

00:42:22.720 strategies

00:42:23.280 for

00:42:23.580 dealing

00:42:23.800 with

00:42:23.960 post

00:42:24.200 modernity

00:42:24.680 that

00:42:25.000 we

00:42:25.140 might

00:42:25.400 not

00:42:26.080 normally

00:42:26.780 identify

00:42:27.200 as

00:42:27.480 conservative

00:42:27.960 in the

00:42:28.680 sense

00:42:28.840 of

00:42:28.960 like

00:42:29.080 conservative

00:42:29.440 party

00:42:29.880 you

00:42:30.120 know

00:42:30.180 the

00:42:30.280 conservative

00:42:30.620 party

00:42:31.000 of

00:42:31.160 Canada

00:42:31.460 is

00:42:31.880 not

00:42:32.060 reading

00:42:32.320 Julius

00:42:32.720 Evola

00:42:33.080 but

00:42:33.620 in

00:42:33.740 some

00:42:33.960 sense

00:42:34.300 traditionalism

00:42:34.960 is

00:42:35.140 its

00:42:35.280 own

00:42:35.540 version

00:42:35.980 of

00:42:36.380 a

00:42:36.580 conservative

00:42:37.060 response

00:42:37.520 to

00:42:37.640 post

00:42:37.820 modernity

00:42:38.220 so

00:42:38.480 once

00:42:39.060 again

00:42:39.300 we

00:42:39.480 enrich

00:42:39.820 our

00:42:40.020 concepts

00:42:40.500 here

00:42:40.760 yeah

00:42:41.560 absolutely

00:42:41.940 and this

00:42:42.480 is a

00:42:42.940 this is a

00:42:43.440 chapter

00:42:43.700 where I

00:42:44.120 did not

00:42:44.420 expect

00:42:44.860 it

00:42:45.080 but I

00:42:45.400 laughed

00:42:45.720 quite

00:42:46.000 often

00:42:46.380 which I

00:42:47.120 think

00:42:47.280 is

00:42:47.740 kind of

00:42:48.060 great

00:42:48.240 in the

00:42:48.420 middle

00:42:48.540 of a

00:42:48.840 book

00:42:49.040 of

00:42:49.240 this

00:42:49.440 weight

00:42:49.720 but

00:42:50.040 he

00:42:50.880 kind

00:42:51.100 of

00:42:51.240 brings

00:42:51.540 in

00:42:51.800 spy

00:42:52.800 kids

00:42:53.120 too

00:42:53.460 as

00:42:54.120 kind

00:42:54.360 of

00:42:54.480 just

00:42:54.680 like

00:42:54.960 the

00:42:55.140 explanation

00:42:55.740 of

00:42:56.360 where

00:42:57.360 the

00:42:57.660 freedom

00:42:57.920 to

00:42:58.140 choose

00:42:58.640 and

00:42:58.940 liberty

00:42:59.480 strips

00:43:00.540 people

00:43:01.080 of

00:43:01.520 kind

00:43:01.740 of

00:43:01.840 their

00:43:01.980 ability

00:43:02.240 to

00:43:02.400 actually

00:43:02.700 make

00:43:02.940 decisions

00:43:03.460 because

00:43:03.960 the

00:43:05.140 you know

00:43:05.580 the

00:43:05.760 entertainment

00:43:06.280 is

00:43:07.280 engineered

00:43:08.040 in a

00:43:08.380 way to

00:43:08.620 just

00:43:08.760 kind

00:43:08.920 of

00:43:09.020 farm

00:43:09.320 your

00:43:09.520 dopamine

00:43:09.980 and

00:43:10.580 like

00:43:10.840 technically

00:43:11.340 yeah

00:43:11.700 you've

00:43:12.000 got

00:43:12.160 the

00:43:12.320 ability

00:43:12.600 to

00:43:12.760 like

00:43:12.940 change

00:43:13.640 channels

00:43:14.140 and

00:43:14.340 everything

00:43:14.680 but

00:43:14.960 you're

00:43:15.200 really

00:43:15.360 just

00:43:15.560 being

00:43:15.760 trained

00:43:16.340 by

00:43:16.940 the

00:43:17.280 technology

00:43:17.760 and

00:43:18.000 by

00:43:18.180 liberty

00:43:18.600 into

00:43:19.720 a

00:43:19.920 particular

00:43:20.240 behavior

00:43:20.720 that

00:43:20.980 you're

00:43:21.160 not

00:43:21.320 really

00:43:21.740 exercising

00:43:22.320 control

00:43:22.880 over

00:43:23.240 and so

00:43:24.080 that's

00:43:24.320 kind

00:43:24.580 of

00:43:24.680 where

00:43:24.920 he

00:43:25.360 develops

00:43:26.520 his

00:43:27.000 first

00:43:27.540 kind

00:43:28.160 of

00:43:28.260 step

00:43:28.540 of

00:43:28.720 conservatism

00:43:29.500 is

00:43:29.980 conservatism

00:43:30.700 is

00:43:30.860 the

00:43:31.020 ability

00:43:31.440 to

00:43:35.140 to

00:43:35.820 say

00:43:36.260 no

00:43:36.580 to

00:43:36.760 certain

00:43:37.580 things

00:43:37.900 including

00:43:38.380 progress

00:43:38.840 and he

00:43:39.120 has a

00:43:39.540 great

00:43:40.340 passage

00:43:41.100 here

00:43:41.340 and I'm

00:43:41.540 just

00:43:41.660 going to

00:43:41.880 read it

00:43:42.140 real quick

00:43:42.460 if you'll

00:43:42.740 indulge me

00:43:43.180 because it's

00:43:43.620 so good

00:43:44.020 that I think

00:43:44.380 people should

00:43:45.240 should hear

00:43:46.340 it here

00:43:46.720 but he

00:43:47.560 says

00:43:47.840 the western

00:43:48.620 liberal

00:43:48.860 model says

00:43:49.720 you want to

00:43:50.440 oppose us

00:43:50.960 please

00:43:51.320 you have

00:43:51.840 the right

00:43:52.160 but look

00:43:52.700 you will

00:43:53.500 you'll not

00:43:54.160 want to give

00:43:54.540 up your

00:43:54.780 washing machine

00:43:55.460 right

00:43:55.760 the washing

00:43:56.460 machine

00:43:56.720 is the

00:43:57.080 absolute

00:43:57.440 argument

00:43:57.940 of the

00:43:59.340 supporters

00:43:59.660 of progress

00:44:00.260 after all

00:44:00.800 everyone wants

00:44:01.680 a washing

00:44:02.380 machine

00:44:02.740 black people

00:44:03.440 native

00:44:03.800 people

00:44:04.240 conservatives

00:44:04.800 and orthodox

00:44:05.800 communists

00:44:06.680 too

00:44:06.940 according to

00:44:07.440 a different

00:44:07.740 logic

00:44:08.120 spoke of

00:44:10.100 the necessity

00:44:10.660 of irreversibility

00:44:11.820 of structural

00:44:12.700 change

00:44:13.200 and he just

00:44:14.200 kind of talks

00:44:14.680 about how

00:44:15.120 like

00:44:15.420 that

00:44:16.640 you know

00:44:17.300 yeah

00:44:17.740 actually

00:44:18.200 human beings

00:44:18.780 can be

00:44:19.720 happy

00:44:20.060 without a

00:44:20.500 washing

00:44:20.780 machine

00:44:21.100 it's not

00:44:21.520 it's not

00:44:22.160 the

00:44:22.460 the

00:44:22.940 the entire

00:44:24.160 thing

00:44:24.340 but he

00:44:24.560 talks about

00:44:25.080 just skipping

00:44:25.940 ahead here

00:44:26.340 real quick

00:44:26.700 he says

00:44:27.000 but for

00:44:27.660 liberal society

00:44:28.300 this is a

00:44:28.860 terrifying

00:44:29.240 thing

00:44:29.760 almost a

00:44:30.620 sacrilege

00:44:31.380 we can

00:44:32.000 understand

00:44:32.340 everything

00:44:32.780 but life

00:44:33.340 without the

00:44:33.760 washing

00:44:34.020 machine

00:44:34.420 this is

00:44:35.080 already

00:44:35.540 a really

00:44:35.960 unscientific

00:44:36.720 life

00:44:37.080 without the

00:44:37.600 washing

00:44:37.820 machine

00:44:38.200 it is

00:44:39.040 impossible

00:44:39.660 and he just

00:44:40.300 talks about

00:44:40.740 how

00:44:41.160 basically

00:44:41.960 liberals

00:44:42.480 will

00:44:43.020 threaten to

00:44:43.880 kill you 0.70

00:44:44.300 if you're

00:44:44.600 not willing

00:44:45.140 if you're

00:44:46.200 willing to

00:44:46.760 turn away

00:44:47.180 from the

00:44:47.520 washing

00:44:47.800 machine

00:44:48.140 if you're

00:44:48.460 willing to

00:44:49.220 turn away

00:44:49.820 from progress

00:44:50.920 or willing

00:44:52.320 to say no

00:44:52.880 to some

00:44:53.220 portion of

00:44:53.640 progress

00:44:54.100 then they

00:44:54.960 will see

00:44:55.260 that as

00:44:55.600 like a

00:44:56.000 direct

00:44:56.360 existential

00:44:56.900 threat

00:44:57.360 to their

00:44:57.840 own

00:44:58.060 liberty

00:44:58.380 yeah it's

00:45:00.900 an amazing

00:45:01.280 passage

00:45:01.840 and it

00:45:02.660 presents

00:45:03.040 so

00:45:03.620 memorably

00:45:04.680 the idea

00:45:05.580 that we're

00:45:06.620 all dedicated

00:45:07.380 to comfortable

00:45:08.320 self-preservation

00:45:09.280 as an absolute

00:45:10.540 as an absolute

00:45:11.660 and uncontestable

00:45:12.700 principle

00:45:13.140 and nobody

00:45:14.060 would ever

00:45:14.600 want anything

00:45:15.240 other than

00:45:15.700 comfortable

00:45:16.020 self-preservation

00:45:16.840 that's what the

00:45:17.400 washing machine

00:45:17.880 has to do

00:45:18.320 with that

00:45:18.620 it's

00:45:19.160 yeah

00:45:19.400 everywhere

00:45:20.240 everybody

00:45:21.140 at this

00:45:21.660 point has

00:45:22.180 been won

00:45:22.520 over to

00:45:22.920 that way

00:45:23.240 of life

00:45:23.600 but the

00:45:24.460 problem

00:45:24.740 as Dugan

00:45:26.080 knows

00:45:26.440 and as

00:45:26.920 you know

00:45:27.220 and as

00:45:27.500 other

00:45:27.780 people who

00:45:29.380 read some

00:45:31.120 of the

00:45:31.420 opposition

00:45:31.840 writers

00:45:32.880 you know

00:45:33.240 opposition

00:45:33.620 to

00:45:34.020 bourgeois

00:45:34.640 liberal

00:45:35.460 democracy

00:45:36.040 and all

00:45:36.280 of that

00:45:36.580 no

00:45:37.080 some

00:45:37.740 people

00:45:38.040 crave

00:45:38.520 war

00:45:39.180 risk

00:45:40.060 courage

00:45:40.960 threat

00:45:41.540 bravery

00:45:42.200 existential

00:45:43.260 depth

00:45:44.020 more than

00:45:45.280 you get

00:45:45.680 from just

00:45:46.200 comfortable

00:45:46.600 self-preservation

00:45:47.820 now that's

00:45:48.720 not to

00:45:48.980 say you

00:45:49.380 know

00:45:49.500 I think

00:45:50.320 we all

00:45:50.900 simultaneously

00:45:51.540 enjoy

00:45:52.360 the benefits

00:45:53.320 of modern

00:45:54.020 technology

00:45:54.600 the benefits

00:45:55.140 of modern

00:45:55.500 science

00:45:55.840 and culture

00:45:56.300 we're able

00:45:57.000 to talk

00:45:57.440 because of

00:45:57.780 the camera

00:45:58.100 microphone

00:45:58.640 etc etc

00:45:59.520 I don't need

00:46:00.080 to go over

00:46:01.040 it it's well

00:46:01.460 known that

00:46:01.960 we've all

00:46:02.280 benefited from

00:46:02.860 these things

00:46:03.340 but Dugan's

00:46:04.220 main point

00:46:04.680 is not

00:46:05.540 whether we've

00:46:06.500 benefited from

00:46:07.260 it but

00:46:08.220 whether it's

00:46:08.800 possible or

00:46:09.540 not to

00:46:10.020 want something

00:46:11.300 else whether

00:46:12.380 the trade-off

00:46:13.160 is decided

00:46:13.860 for all time

00:46:14.880 that whatever

00:46:15.840 we lost

00:46:16.560 on the road

00:46:17.120 to comfortable

00:46:17.520 self-preservation

00:46:18.260 you can never

00:46:19.280 hope to regain

00:46:20.140 again and

00:46:20.780 you're some

00:46:21.100 sort of freak

00:46:21.680 show if you'd

00:46:22.420 even consider

00:46:23.040 it and

00:46:24.340 there I

00:46:24.860 think he

00:46:25.180 has a very

00:46:25.740 solid point

00:46:27.480 liberal thought

00:46:29.940 has taken for

00:46:30.660 granted too

00:46:31.300 much that

00:46:32.200 this is the

00:46:32.720 decisive

00:46:33.120 consideration for

00:46:34.040 humanity or

00:46:34.740 that it ought

00:46:35.260 to be and

00:46:36.240 that there's

00:46:36.700 nothing else

00:46:37.500 that somebody

00:46:38.080 could want

00:46:39.400 and Schmidt

00:46:40.340 for example

00:46:40.880 in the concept

00:46:41.500 of the

00:46:41.780 political he

00:46:42.720 writes about

00:46:43.180 this as well

00:46:43.760 because in

00:46:44.100 some sense

00:46:44.480 the metaphysics

00:46:45.020 of the washing

00:46:45.560 machine is

00:46:46.140 equivalent to

00:46:47.060 depoliticization

00:46:48.420 everything is

00:46:49.360 just about

00:46:49.880 comfortable

00:46:50.400 consumer living

00:46:51.400 there's no

00:46:52.160 more there's

00:46:53.340 nothing you

00:46:53.840 would kill

00:46:54.240 or die

00:46:54.600 for there's

00:46:55.560 no more

00:46:56.080 serious

00:46:57.020 fundamental

00:46:57.520 disagreement

00:46:58.040 over the

00:46:58.860 meaning of

00:46:59.200 a human

00:46:59.500 life or

00:46:59.940 meaning of

00:47:00.300 a good

00:47:00.500 human life

00:47:01.120 so yeah

00:47:02.480 it's a very

00:47:02.960 memorable

00:47:03.500 passage and

00:47:04.840 again the

00:47:05.240 key the key

00:47:05.780 point is it

00:47:06.960 or isn't it

00:47:07.660 possible for a

00:47:08.860 human being

00:47:09.440 to say no

00:47:10.620 are we just

00:47:12.480 faded by the

00:47:13.740 metaphysics of

00:47:14.300 the washing

00:47:14.680 machine always

00:47:15.460 to go in the

00:47:15.980 direction of new

00:47:16.960 more efficient

00:47:18.240 technologies and

00:47:19.640 if so at

00:47:20.280 what expense

00:47:21.020 because okay

00:47:22.320 fine the

00:47:22.700 washing machine

00:47:23.260 is the

00:47:23.520 washing machine

00:47:24.060 but the

00:47:24.400 processes behind

00:47:26.100 the desire for

00:47:27.420 comfortable self

00:47:28.080 preservation the

00:47:28.800 use of technology

00:47:29.440 to that end

00:47:30.120 culminate when

00:47:31.360 Dugan does this

00:47:31.940 full analysis in

00:47:33.320 the threat of

00:47:33.920 total dehumanization

00:47:35.280 in the threat of

00:47:36.740 total like behind

00:47:38.940 the metaphysics of

00:47:39.600 the washing machine

00:47:40.020 when you extrapolate

00:47:40.940 to its full

00:47:41.420 conclusion you have

00:47:42.860 the replacement of

00:47:43.860 humanity by

00:47:44.560 technology and

00:47:46.220 then we're into a

00:47:47.220 serious problem

00:47:47.880 because what if

00:47:48.920 you care about

00:47:49.660 the human being

00:47:50.280 what if you care

00:47:51.240 about the war

00:47:52.620 against the human

00:47:53.740 nature well then

00:47:55.120 it's a it's a few

00:47:57.260 steps from one to

00:47:58.440 the other and

00:47:58.960 that's why he

00:47:59.420 raises this concern

00:48:00.280 the human being

00:48:01.500 asserts his dignity

00:48:02.520 when he can say

00:48:03.560 no to the

00:48:04.140 processes that

00:48:05.240 implicate him in

00:48:06.000 his own

00:48:06.240 destruction yeah I

00:48:08.080 don't know if

00:48:08.500 you've seen the

00:48:09.280 the TV show

00:48:10.260 altered carbon but

00:48:12.220 it's it's pretty

00:48:15.000 pulpy but it's got

00:48:15.880 some interesting

00:48:16.500 moments in the in

00:48:17.400 the first season and

00:48:18.600 basically the

00:48:19.120 premise is humans

00:48:20.160 have advanced to

00:48:20.700 the point where

00:48:21.000 everybody's

00:48:21.600 consciousness can be

00:48:22.640 downloaded into like

00:48:24.160 a computer that they

00:48:25.600 kind of wear on their

00:48:26.480 spine and so if like

00:48:27.740 you get killed you 0.99

00:48:28.940 can get put in a new

00:48:30.120 body and your

00:48:31.140 consciousness can kind

00:48:32.300 of be moved over

00:48:33.440 but one of the

00:48:34.460 interesting parts of

00:48:35.740 the show is that the

00:48:36.880 only group that was

00:48:38.340 willing to resist this

00:48:40.140 technology were

00:48:40.980 Catholics because they 1.00

00:48:42.020 believe that you know

00:48:43.220 God created us with a

00:48:44.420 soul and we only have

00:48:45.380 one life and you can't

00:48:46.420 actually transfer someone's

00:48:47.820 soul to another body

00:48:48.680 and so like their

00:48:50.880 ability to say no means

00:48:52.420 that they can't be

00:48:53.580 trapped in what is

00:48:54.700 turns out to be like

00:48:55.540 kind of a hellacious

00:48:56.260 existence of

00:48:57.760 technological eternal

00:48:59.140 life but only for the

00:49:00.460 rich in a particular

00:49:01.340 way and everyone else is

00:49:02.560 stuck in this really

00:49:03.660 terrifying you know

00:49:05.020 existence and I just

00:49:05.860 thought about that a

00:49:07.200 little bit like the

00:49:07.900 ability the religious

00:49:09.160 you know boundaries and

00:49:11.120 beliefs allowing them to

00:49:12.680 say no to something that

00:49:13.880 actually fundamentally

00:49:14.640 destroyed the rest of

00:49:16.280 the human race and

00:49:18.100 their human nature in

00:49:19.740 kind of in that

00:49:20.320 scenario yes that maps

00:49:22.240 on you know Dugan in

00:49:23.260 this chapter says that

00:49:24.320 among the conservative

00:49:25.660 groups that will be able

00:49:27.020 to say no to this

00:49:28.060 technological march

00:49:29.780 again treating it as a

00:49:30.760 necessity or something

00:49:31.640 like that are these

00:49:33.140 religious groups but

00:49:33.880 that includes also and

00:49:34.920 this is where some

00:49:35.600 conservatives would

00:49:36.280 automatically like

00:49:37.280 recoil probably that

00:49:38.700 includes religious

00:49:39.620 fundamentalists and not

00:49:41.120 only Christian because 0.59

00:49:41.960 there are non-Christian 1.00

00:49:42.960 religious fundamentalists

00:49:44.060 who also would reject

00:49:45.100 the metaphysics of the

00:49:45.860 washing machine for

00:49:46.840 the same type of reason

00:49:48.000 you know they also want

00:49:48.780 to preserve something

00:49:50.140 some shred of human

00:49:52.120 dignity in the face of

00:49:53.060 this march and so when

00:49:54.540 Dugan does his analysis

00:49:55.720 of these various

00:49:56.380 conservative groupings

00:49:57.600 okay the traditionalists

00:49:59.320 fundamental conservatives

00:50:00.440 very nice when he talks

00:50:02.180 about status quo liberals

00:50:03.380 because they also say

00:50:04.480 whoa let's slow things

00:50:05.840 down we don't want to

00:50:06.680 become post-modern but

00:50:08.360 we don't want to reject

00:50:09.000 post-modernity in the

00:50:10.100 name of religious

00:50:10.640 fundamentalism we sort of

00:50:12.480 just want to hit the

00:50:13.900 brakes and stay where we

00:50:15.640 are let's roll back the

00:50:16.640 clock from post-liberalism

00:50:18.000 to liberalism from

00:50:19.200 post-modernity to

00:50:20.340 modernity and you

00:50:21.760 definitely see in my

00:50:22.780 view this position

00:50:23.500 reflected today in the

00:50:24.700 conservative culture war

00:50:25.820 debates I don't know

00:50:27.800 his work well enough to

00:50:28.720 say for sure so I hope

00:50:29.500 this isn't misleading but

00:50:30.480 I get the impression that

00:50:31.320 for example James Lindsay

00:50:32.280 takes that kind of

00:50:33.460 position you know post

00:50:34.360 post-modernism is bad

00:50:35.700 but so is religious

00:50:37.340 nationalism and so is

00:50:38.600 national conservatism so

00:50:40.120 let's just go from

00:50:41.060 post-modernity back to

00:50:42.000 modernity post-liberalism

00:50:42.940 back to liberalism so he

00:50:44.960 analyzes that and

00:50:45.780 Dugan says that is

00:50:47.220 that point of view is

00:50:49.900 not tendible for any

00:50:51.020 serious conservative

00:50:51.800 because it still

00:50:52.540 preserves the basic

00:50:53.520 orientation towards

00:50:55.300 liberalism well let's

00:50:57.260 let's go ahead and

00:50:57.860 expand those those

00:50:58.920 categories then because

00:50:59.840 you're getting into

00:51:00.380 them and I think it'll

00:51:00.980 be helpful for people

00:51:01.780 to have the categories

00:51:02.680 before we go into that

00:51:03.900 discussion okay so he

00:51:04.840 breaks down kind of

00:51:05.860 three main forms of

00:51:08.720 conservatism that are

00:51:10.520 opposing what's going on

00:51:11.620 then kind of a fourth

00:51:12.480 one as well he talks

00:51:13.900 about the traditionalists

00:51:15.160 the status quo liberals

00:51:16.600 that you were just

00:51:17.220 talking about and then

00:51:18.300 revolutionary conservatives

00:51:19.720 and he also kind of

00:51:21.080 includes kind of in this

00:51:22.120 subgroup kind of leftist

00:51:23.800 social conservatives so

00:51:25.600 could you could you

00:51:26.220 talk about kind of

00:51:27.860 those three groups and

00:51:29.240 the way they're kind of

00:51:30.480 opposing you know the

00:51:33.120 pluses and minuses of the

00:51:34.300 way they're opposing

00:51:34.960 things in Dugan's view

00:51:35.980 sure so the fundamental

00:51:38.240 conservatives the

00:51:39.180 traditionalists I think

00:51:40.240 it's well summarized in

00:51:41.220 this sentence of this he

00:51:42.320 says traditionalism is

00:51:43.740 that form of

00:51:44.300 conservatism which

00:51:45.600 contends the following

00:51:46.560 what is bad are not

00:51:48.200 those separate fragments

00:51:49.480 here and there within a

00:51:50.440 larger system that call

00:51:51.780 out for our repudiation

00:51:52.680 in the contemporary

00:51:53.720 world everything is bad

00:51:55.180 the idea of progress is

00:51:56.580 bad the idea of

00:51:57.440 technological development

00:51:58.220 is bad Descartes

00:51:59.400 philosophy of the subject

00:52:00.320 and object is bad

00:52:01.140 Newton's metaphor of the

00:52:02.220 watchmaker is bad

00:52:03.060 basically everything

00:52:04.400 modern needs to be

00:52:05.340 rejected so the

00:52:06.720 traditionalists they

00:52:07.640 are anti-modern

00:52:09.520 they want to go back

00:52:10.880 and they're going back

00:52:12.460 it can take different

00:52:13.520 forms it can go back

00:52:14.940 from progress to

00:52:16.180 eternity it can go

00:52:17.720 back from the modern

00:52:18.540 world to the ancient

00:52:19.320 world but it's a total

00:52:21.120 and utter repudiation

00:52:22.260 of the modern for what

00:52:23.500 came before it and

00:52:25.680 there are people here

00:52:26.680 that he's written about

00:52:27.620 like Rene Guenon and

00:52:29.260 Julius Evola for

00:52:30.280 example Dugan has

00:52:31.800 written about them he

00:52:32.720 studied them he considers

00:52:33.600 them important critics

00:52:35.300 of modernity absolutely

00:52:36.760 relevant for his whole

00:52:38.780 project but it's this

00:52:40.820 here's another way he

00:52:42.460 puts the characterizes

00:52:43.360 Gwena and Evola in this

00:52:44.340 section they described

00:52:45.260 traditional society as a

00:52:46.760 super temporal ideal so

00:52:48.780 you reject modernity you

00:52:49.860 go back to traditional 0.98

00:52:50.560 society traditional

00:52:51.600 society exists above

00:52:52.800 time outside of time

00:52:53.920 it's an ideal like that

00:52:55.860 in the contemporary world

00:52:56.720 of modernity and its

00:52:57.660 foundational principles

00:52:58.500 are a fall they're a

00:52:59.900 product of yeah the fall

00:53:00.940 degeneration degradation

00:53:02.300 decomposition of

00:53:03.480 hierarchy shift to

00:53:04.660 materialism from

00:53:05.800 spiritualism and so on

00:53:07.680 so that for him is

00:53:08.800 pretty important and

00:53:09.760 besides people like

00:53:10.740 Gwena and Evola you

00:53:11.800 have as I said religious

00:53:12.660 fundamentalist Christian 0.79

00:53:13.760 and non-Christian for

00:53:15.000 whom everything modern

00:53:17.300 is sick degraded and to

00:53:19.180 be repudiated so I think

00:53:20.640 that's a way of

00:53:21.460 characterizing it and he

00:53:22.660 does see some thing in

00:53:24.740 that school of thought

00:53:25.460 it's not in my view where

00:53:26.480 he ultimately lands he's

00:53:28.440 closer to conservative

00:53:29.280 revolution as he says

00:53:31.080 and we can discuss that

00:53:31.880 in a second but this is

00:53:33.140 still an important

00:53:33.800 attitude towards

00:53:36.180 modernity for him

00:53:37.100 right and then so you

00:53:39.020 already kind of

00:53:39.520 described the second

00:53:40.280 group there which is

00:53:41.440 the status quo liberals

00:53:42.620 and they understand

00:53:44.200 there's a problem with

00:53:45.220 what's going on but

00:53:46.340 they don't want to

00:53:46.920 oppose it from that

00:53:48.940 traditionalist mindset

00:53:49.880 and so they're just

00:53:50.780 looking to roll things

00:53:51.660 back liberalism wasn't

00:53:53.160 that bad there's no

00:53:54.460 fundamental problems

00:53:55.260 here we just need to

00:53:56.440 get rid of kind of the

00:53:57.600 the hostile postmodern

00:53:59.320 strain of this and we

00:54:01.000 can kind of roll back

00:54:02.180 to the 1990s and enjoy

00:54:03.700 Bill Clinton and AOL

00:54:04.980 and all the things that

00:54:07.520 came along with it

00:54:08.240 one nice point too in

00:54:10.200 that section he says and

00:54:11.400 I think this is right and

00:54:12.520 also maps on to what we

00:54:13.680 see when we look at the

00:54:14.940 culture war conservative

00:54:16.080 culture ourselves he said

00:54:17.640 the liberal conservatives

00:54:18.540 they are they're they're

00:54:20.580 scared of the red scare

00:54:22.100 okay they're terrified of

00:54:23.400 communism and

00:54:24.400 Bolshevism all that but 1.00

00:54:25.820 they're equally scared

00:54:26.900 they really are worried

00:54:28.300 that if they open up any

00:54:30.040 door to the right of

00:54:31.000 themselves all the

00:54:32.440 subterranean fascist

00:54:33.840 energies are going to 1.00

00:54:34.640 come bubbling back up to

00:54:35.640 the surface so think

00:54:37.500 about all you know all

00:54:38.500 of the positions that

00:54:39.440 take that like they

00:54:40.320 attack they attack

00:54:41.700 wokeism from the right

00:54:42.980 but they also are very

00:54:44.200 careful not to open the

00:54:45.440 door even you know a

00:54:46.760 millimeter to the right

00:54:47.740 of themselves that status

00:54:49.160 quo conservatism for

00:54:50.840 for Dugan he's got some

00:54:52.500 really nice passages about

00:54:53.620 that that I think are

00:54:54.700 accurate uh again really

00:54:57.480 worried that they're

00:54:59.520 going to open the door to

00:55:00.500 fundamental conservatism

00:55:01.600 it's it's probably not an

00:55:02.820 unfounded worry it's not

00:55:03.840 not trying to mock it but

00:55:04.820 I think he's right in

00:55:05.600 characterizing as he puts

00:55:06.440 it oh yeah uh you don't

00:55:08.940 want they worry the

00:55:09.860 status quo conservatives

00:55:10.640 they worry that there

00:55:11.360 would be god forbid a

00:55:12.520 release from some

00:55:13.340 basement of those dormant

00:55:14.500 energies with which the

00:55:15.960 Jacobins used which the

00:55:17.180 Jacobins used in the terror 1.00

00:55:18.160 and the anti-terror and so

00:55:18.980 on so they want to keep

00:55:20.100 everything exactly 1990s

00:55:22.180 frozen don't open the

00:55:24.040 door to criticisms on the

00:55:25.060 left or on the right

00:55:25.880 don't raise the quest don't

00:55:27.920 raise the problem of the

00:55:28.780 direction of history or the

00:55:29.980 nature of time just sort of

00:55:31.660 shut all of that out shut

00:55:32.720 all of it down freeze us in

00:55:34.320 this capitalist sweet spot

00:55:35.600 and stay there as long as

00:55:37.100 you possibly can yeah and

00:55:38.780 you can tell that this is

00:55:40.500 the case because almost all

00:55:41.820 if you're ever wondering if

00:55:42.860 someone is in this position

00:55:43.840 they almost always buttress

00:55:45.940 what they're saying against

00:55:46.700 the left with like but the

00:55:47.700 right is the real problem

00:55:48.600 like you need to be careful

00:55:49.540 of the right we we can't

00:55:50.780 we can't let these so so

00:55:52.460 yeah we need to have all

00:55:53.360 these criticism post

00:55:54.320 majority but not those

00:55:55.280 criticisms those criticisms

00:55:56.580 are dangerous we can't

00:55:57.980 acknowledge any of those

00:55:59.020 truths about humanity and

00:56:00.220 so we have to keep

00:56:01.060 everything in a very narrow

00:56:02.600 box this kind of this kind

00:56:04.080 of sweet spot of

00:56:05.760 liberalism where we had

00:56:07.120 we had discarded all of

00:56:09.060 the traditional parts of

00:56:10.860 human bonds but before we

00:56:12.700 had lapsed into kind of the

00:56:14.940 thing that would inevitably

00:56:16.020 fill that that hole in kind

00:56:18.580 of human understanding

00:56:19.960 once those things are gone

00:56:21.160 they lived they lived at

00:56:22.640 one one little you know

00:56:24.280 sweet couple decades and

00:56:25.820 they think that they can

00:56:26.520 somehow freeze time in that

00:56:28.700 place and keep both left

00:56:30.420 and right out of kind of

00:56:31.680 where they want to be

00:56:32.560 oh yeah so that's a

00:56:34.800 movement clearly right

00:56:35.840 he's he's correct to

00:56:37.360 identify them and then the

00:56:38.960 next one the conservative

00:56:40.600 revolution maybe you

00:56:42.260 wanted to say something

00:56:42.940 about it first no no no

00:56:44.300 no I was just gonna say

00:56:45.160 and now the conservative

00:56:46.040 revolution you were you

00:56:46.860 were going the same

00:56:47.320 yeah so the conservative

00:56:48.700 revolution this is a very

00:56:49.660 important uh movement to

00:56:51.440 understand uh in principle

00:56:53.640 and in theory because for

00:56:54.660 dugan it's crucial so here's

00:56:56.380 a problem you reject

00:56:58.240 modernity let's say you

00:56:59.180 reject post-modernity you

00:57:00.220 reject the state of affairs

00:57:01.280 you're conservative in that

00:57:02.380 sense you want to go back to

00:57:03.520 something earlier like the

00:57:05.080 fundamental conservatives do

00:57:06.360 or the traditionalists do but

00:57:08.000 the conservative revolution

00:57:08.940 group says what we see now

00:57:12.760 and what we're against now is

00:57:15.020 somehow the consequence of

00:57:17.560 what was there before they're

00:57:19.120 related in some way so we

00:57:21.880 now see the outcome of

00:57:24.320 something that was late a

00:57:25.540 latent possibility at an

00:57:26.960 earlier period so just by

00:57:28.880 returning to the past all

00:57:30.280 we're doing is returning back

00:57:31.660 to that period of latency and

00:57:33.580 then we'll run the you know

00:57:35.180 we'll run the movie again and

00:57:36.900 we'll get exactly back to where

00:57:38.220 we are now in other words the

00:57:39.460 seeds of our current

00:57:40.700 catastrophe are present in

00:57:43.240 the past they're present in

00:57:45.100 the pre-modern traditional

00:57:46.300 social configuration of

00:57:48.420 things and so the

00:57:49.100 conservative revolutionaries

00:57:50.180 want to understand what is

00:57:51.980 the nature of this entire

00:57:53.280 eschatological drama what is

00:57:55.540 the negativity built into the

00:57:57.860 original state that over time

00:58:00.020 plays itself out as a

00:58:01.860 nihilistic crisis so this is

00:58:04.540 very uh you know this makes us

00:58:07.100 think a little bit more just

00:58:08.700 the fundamental conservative

00:58:09.760 rejection of modernity does

00:58:10.960 certainly more than the

00:58:11.960 status quo uh conservatism or

00:58:14.160 liberal conservatism does

00:58:15.320 because it forces us to try to

00:58:17.500 understand the whole process

00:58:20.120 that led from the beginning to

00:58:22.400 where we are now as he says

00:58:23.720 um trying to understand the

00:58:26.760 secret parallel non-evident

00:58:28.960 intention of the deity itself or

00:58:31.100 in some sense again trying to

00:58:32.280 understand the eschatological

00:58:34.080 drama as more than just social as

00:58:37.140 like what is there's a why does

00:58:40.200 duke end up having to think 1.00

00:58:41.780 about people like heidegger or

00:58:43.240 raise questions about the

00:58:44.060 nature of time precisely because

00:58:45.720 he's attracted by this kind of

00:58:47.040 approach how do we see the

00:58:48.940 relationship between where we

00:58:50.160 began and where we ended in

00:58:51.780 terms of what it all means so

00:58:54.120 conservative revolutionaries do

00:58:55.380 that in some sense this is maybe

00:58:57.460 slightly related to what we

00:58:58.580 discussed uh in part last time

00:59:00.420 about accelerationists the

00:59:01.740 conservative revolution say let's

00:59:03.820 get through the this nihilistic

00:59:06.520 crisis in order that we come out

00:59:08.860 the other side of it completing

00:59:10.180 as it were the eschatological

00:59:11.720 drama and inaugurating a new

00:59:13.660 beginning another uh era or

00:59:16.060 another epoch so we're not trying

00:59:17.740 to push things into chaos for the

00:59:19.340 sake of chaos but because as you

00:59:21.440 complete as post-modernity plays

00:59:24.100 itself out the gloomy end of the

00:59:25.420 show as it plays itself out to its

00:59:27.380 own absurd uh logical or illogical

00:59:30.000 consequences that will provide the

00:59:32.600 soil for possible healthy

00:59:35.900 rebirth of thinking and of being

00:59:38.880 basically so yeah that's

00:59:41.580 conservative revolution is very

00:59:43.020 close and i should say just one

00:59:44.700 passage here i think is very

00:59:45.620 important he says from a

00:59:47.680 philosophical point of view this

00:59:49.540 is the most interesting school you

00:59:51.580 know and because dugan's a

00:59:52.360 philosophical supremacist we need

00:59:53.540 to understand that that's high

00:59:54.480 praise for him and therefore i think

00:59:56.180 we should categorize him most of all

00:59:57.780 among the conservative

00:59:58.720 revolutionaries excellent and uh oh

01:00:02.160 someone was asking about uh what

01:00:04.200 uh what dugan thought about

01:00:06.220 accelerationism actually as i

01:00:07.820 understand dugan spoke about land

01:00:10.060 in uh he gave like an hour long

01:00:12.860 talk but it was in russian and

01:00:14.700 someone sent me like a like some

01:00:16.560 kind of like ticker tape

01:00:17.640 translation it was going through

01:00:18.960 very quickly i couldn't really make

01:00:20.680 anything of it so it was difficult

01:00:21.820 but i'd be interested if there if

01:00:23.440 anyone can find an english

01:00:24.560 transcription of his uh his talk on

01:00:27.520 land and acceleration as

01:00:28.700 them i would i would be fascinated

01:00:29.940 to to take more of a look on that

01:00:31.740 and get a better understanding

01:00:33.040 uh but we should probably say he

01:00:34.560 does identify one other small

01:00:36.400 group which is left-wing uh

01:00:38.500 conservatism uh he does talk a

01:00:40.640 little bit about how there are some

01:00:42.160 strains of uh of left-wingers who

01:00:45.120 are still uh interested in in social

01:00:48.140 conservatism i think this is kind of

01:00:49.920 uh maybe the old left those who who

01:00:53.200 had not embraced the woke part of uh of

01:00:56.740 leftism uh in that way but he it's

01:00:59.280 only a it's only really a paragraph on

01:01:00.940 it so uh i don't know if there's a

01:01:02.580 whole lot to discuss there more than

01:01:04.180 just acknowledging that it does exist

01:01:05.780 yeah just the key point here is that

01:01:08.520 it's a national bolshevism uh left-wing

01:01:12.500 conservatism and what is conservative

01:01:14.920 about it is the national dimension or the

01:01:17.460 ethnic dimension or the somehow a

01:01:19.420 traditionalist dimension so this combines

01:01:21.000 social justice theses with some notion

01:01:24.320 of a folkish or ethnic or national

01:01:26.560 identity national not in the bourgeois

01:01:29.200 nation-state merely civic citizenship

01:01:32.200 sense but in the traditional rooted

01:01:34.800 archaic linguistic ethnic sense so these

01:01:38.440 movements he thinks have something um

01:01:41.640 they represent something distinct and he

01:01:44.700 had tried to even do this kind of

01:01:46.820 national bolshevik uh or national um

01:01:50.140 social conservatism in russia he mentions

01:01:52.980 why that failed and so on but yeah

01:01:54.320 it's again the only key thing to say

01:01:57.080 about it for example what's different

01:01:58.340 between the left-wing uh conservatism and

01:02:00.780 the status quo liberalism the nation-state

01:02:04.500 civil society juridical emphasis of one

01:02:07.720 focused on rights versus like the ethnic

01:02:10.420 archaic traditional heritage rooted uh

01:02:13.700 localist you know ethnic sense of the

01:02:16.520 other so yeah he mentions that movement

01:02:18.120 within passing and elsewhere too i think

01:02:19.960 in one of the other chapters he says

01:02:21.360 uh maybe in a subsequent chapter he's

01:02:23.500 like this is also a relevant leftist

01:02:25.840 movement today so it's leftist but still

01:02:28.480 conservative so in that sense yeah yeah so

01:02:31.140 um uh we did hit our hour so if you don't

01:02:33.560 have time that's that's no problem but he

01:02:35.220 does talk about uh eurasianism as kind of

01:02:37.500 the last part of this chapter i don't know

01:02:39.320 if you uh had time to kind of uh just

01:02:41.600 touch on eurasianism and neo-eurasianism

01:02:43.820 yeah so uh the key i have something to say

01:02:48.040 about this that i think is pretty important

01:02:49.280 from this chapter actually first let me

01:02:51.420 say briefly that eurasianism was a school

01:02:54.240 of thought in a nutshell that said there

01:02:57.860 are more than one civilization okay the

01:03:01.020 plurality of civilizations was one of the

01:03:02.860 key elements of original eurasianism and

01:03:05.100 they used that in order to think about the

01:03:07.040 distinctness of russian civilization russian

01:03:10.040 identity okay there's there's a nice book

01:03:12.120 called foundations of eurasianism where you

01:03:13.760 can see excerpts from some of the early

01:03:15.340 foundation uh early eurasians their

01:03:17.140 debates the key idea for dugan that he

01:03:20.500 derives from this school of russian 0.98

01:03:22.260 thinkers is plurality of civilizations okay

01:03:25.500 they were anti-soviets uh many of them 0.96

01:03:28.460 exiled on the philosophers ships if you

01:03:30.600 guys have ever heard of that where the new

01:03:32.440 soviet union sent out philosophers and

01:03:34.300 writers and authors and poets and

01:03:35.560 theologians on literally on ships sent

01:03:37.460 them out of the country so some of these

01:03:39.520 emigres they ended up developing this uh 0.98

01:03:42.100 model and one thing about it so

01:03:44.540 eurasianism is a nosiological plurality

01:03:48.420 nosiological means like how we know how

01:03:50.760 we understand in other words let's say

01:03:52.560 scientific plurality like we were

01:03:53.820 discussing earlier they have different

01:03:55.700 models of politics culture anthropology for

01:03:58.340 each civilization so this is important for

01:04:00.860 dugan because he traces his own work to

01:04:03.160 that tradition but here's the key

01:04:05.300 beautiful thing so dugan we could say is a

01:04:07.700 neo-eurasianist so the eurasianist

01:04:09.840 contributed an analysis of civilizational

01:04:11.980 plurality what is the neo part what's

01:04:15.820 novel and distinct and there's a lot we

01:04:18.800 could say but i think what dugan himself

01:04:20.160 says is very clear and very helpful he

01:04:22.480 says neo-eurasianism which appeared in

01:04:25.080 russia in the late 1980s and this he's

01:04:27.160 referring to himself okay he's the leading

01:04:28.700 theorist of neo-eurasianism completely

01:04:30.760 apprehended the fundamental points of the

01:04:32.780 previous eurasianists model of

01:04:35.280 understanding okay so take took something

01:04:37.360 from them here's the key point but it

01:04:39.700 supplemented them this is where we get

01:04:41.740 the neo with attention to

01:04:44.020 traditionalism geopolitics structuralism the

01:04:47.880 fundamental ontology of heidegger sociology

01:04:50.140 and anthropology and likewise carried out the

01:04:53.260 gigantic task of producing concord between the

01:04:55.980 basic theses of eurasianism in the new

01:04:57.760 postmodern situation so what makes neo-eurasianism

01:05:00.920 distinct it has incorporated the key insights

01:05:03.420 of 20th century intellectual history

01:05:06.340 structuralism post-structuralism heidegger and

01:05:08.980 so on to enrich our understanding of the

01:05:11.880 thesis of civilizational plurality and to

01:05:14.540 bring it up to date with the current

01:05:15.980 conditions of postmodern globalism so

01:05:18.260 that's very nice in my view that helps us to

01:05:21.120 understand in a quick formula what dugan is

01:05:26.380 trying to do civilizational multipolarity using

01:05:28.860 all the tools of 20th century intellectual

01:05:30.840 contributions in the state of post-modernity

01:05:32.880 that's neo-eurasianism in a nutshell

01:05:34.700 excellent all right guys well we're gonna go

01:05:38.240 ahead and wrap it up here but i think it's

01:05:40.260 been another great conversation there's really

01:05:42.140 so much to learn here and of course

01:05:44.100 michael millerman is really one of the

01:05:47.120 foremost people to learn this from so

01:05:49.680 michael where can people go to get your

01:05:52.220 work better understand this and the other

01:05:53.780 thinkers that you study

01:05:54.740 if you go to michaelmillerman.com or duganbook.com

01:06:00.380 you'll see the books that i've written one on

01:06:02.280 dugan one on heidegger which includes an

01:06:05.500 analysis of dugan's reception of heidegger

01:06:07.180 millermanschool.com is where i teach

01:06:09.740 courses on all of these authors including

01:06:11.520 several on dugan several on heidegger

01:06:13.500 several on strauss and my main social media

01:06:16.600 channel is twitter m underscore millerman i

01:06:19.900 also put out tons of free lectures on

01:06:22.020 youtube so if you just search michael

01:06:24.060 millerman you'll find everywhere that i am and

01:06:25.760 i hope people get a chance to follow me

01:06:27.300 online and check out my courses and books

01:06:29.200 and all of that excellent guys make sure

01:06:31.580 that you do so and of course if this is your

01:06:33.740 first time here make sure that you are

01:06:35.300 subscribed to the channel if you want to get

01:06:37.900 these broadcasts as podcasts make sure that

01:06:40.120 you're subscribing to the or mac entire show

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01:06:43.620 and if you do please go ahead and leave that

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01:06:48.160 it really helps out with the algorithms and

01:06:50.880 everything all right guys thank you for coming

01:06:52.900 by i know it's really early so i appreciate your

01:06:55.140 dedication to philosophy and as always we'll

01:06:58.240 talk to you next time

The Auron MacIntyre Show - April 13, 2023

The Fourth Political Theory： Part Two ｜ Guest Michael Millerman ｜ 4⧸13⧸24

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