The Insane Rage Around Tucker Carlson and the Heritage Foundation ｜ Guest： Jason Whitlock ｜ 11⧸3⧸25
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Summary
In the wake of the death of conservative icon Charlie Kirk, many have wondered what role, if any, conservative men should play in the new conservative civil war. Jason Whitlock, host of the Blaze TV show "The FiveThirtyEight" joins me to discuss this and much more.
Transcript
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Hey everybody, how's it going? Thanks for joining me this afternoon. I've got a great stream with
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subscribe and get your $40 off and your issue four of Frontier Magazine today. All right, guys, as you
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might have noticed, there seems to be a low-grade conservative civil war. Well, honestly, at this point,
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I'd say it's just escalated into a high-grade civil war at this point. Someone who I've discussed
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this topic with multiple times, he's been kind enough to have me on his show, and I think he has
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great insights about it, is Jason Whitlock. He's, of course, a host on the blaze, just like me.
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Of course. Like I said, you've had me on. You've been gracious enough to have me on to discuss
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this topic before. Nick Fuentes, how should the American right be reaching out to young men? Is
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there a way that we can have critical discussions that guys like Nick are talking about, but we can
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have them in a responsible and Christian way? And I really appreciate that you've been on the
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forefront on this, because I think you've been walking a very difficult but well-drawn line,
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and I would like to continue a conversation with you in that vein, because I think you've had
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good insights on this. Now, before we get started with any of the background or the drama or any of
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this, I'd just like to acknowledge on the outset that this is all happening after the death of
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Charlie Kirk. And I think this is one of the most disgusting displays I have ever seen in my life,
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like personal, private, professional, across the board. Like, you and I have opinions. We're paid to
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have opinions, right? And we're not shy about sharing those opinions. But in the aftermath of
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Charlie Kirk's death, my message, much like Matt Walsh's message was, was we need to come together,
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right? Anyone who wants to defeat the left, we need to push our disagreements to the side,
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and we need to find a way to defeat these people. Because however I feel about someone who, you know,
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might have more or less support for Israel than I do, ultimately, they're not trying to shoot me,
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and the left is. And I thought after the death of Charlie Kirk, we would be able to pull together
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and at least agree on that. But instead, it seems like we've killed all of that political momentum,
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and all of that drive, and all of that collective effort. And we've decided to instead just pull the
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car over on the side of the road, and beat each other until only one guy can drive the car.
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And I don't know about you, but for a guy like Charlie Kirk, who had many great abilities,
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but one of them is peacemaking. The fact that this is what's been made of his legacy,
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I just think it's horrible. I agree with you to some degree in terms of
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this is disappointing coming out of the Charlie Kirk deal, but I think it's inevitable. I think that
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this conflict, this awakening, this iron sharpening iron has to happen. I don't see the conflict in
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political terms. I see them more in biblical and religious terms. I see this more as a battle of
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good versus evil. And so, Arne, I'm just someone that, you know, tries to go out of my way to reject
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any sort of political identity. I want a Christian identity. And I think that's where this is all
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headed. Some people are still in a very hyper-political mindset, and haven't recognized
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where we're really at is, and I tweeted this out, I think this morning or last night, it's like,
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hey, what is our identity? And where should our identity come from? And I think it should come
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from your religious faith, your country of origin, and your language. And many people want to take
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their identity from their politics. I think it's a mistake. And I think that that's all now starting
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just people are starting to see the limits of these political identities. They change moment to
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moment, who you support, what you don't support. Whereas, you know, if you're following Jesus Christ,
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the one true God, you know, you're standing on a rock solid foundation of wisdom and truth
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I'll certainly agree with you that, unfortunately, I think this conflict was inevitable, right? And I
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think that that part is definitely true. And it is certainly bad that our identities have become so
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ideological and political. I think that you're exactly right. That is a, the fact that we have
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really been deracinated, we've been pulled out of the idea that we should have roots in our faith and in
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our country and our family, that these things are somehow ephemeral, and you should really just
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change them depending on your economic beliefs, or any of that stuff, or your geopolitical persuasion.
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I think that that is, you know, deeply disturbing. I will say that I do think that ultimately,
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and this is how I think it should properly be ordered, your identity will inform your politics,
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right? And so the question is not, will you have, I guess, quote, unquote, identity politics,
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but what identity will be most salient, right? Is it that you and I are brothers in Christ,
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or is it something else, right? And I think that is important. But of course, I also think,
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you know, your nationality matters, right? The fact that we are both Americans gives us far more to
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share and far more in our collective identity than I would have with, say, a Christian in another
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country. Not that they are not also my brother in Christ, but this is what makes us collectively
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American in a way that we're not Armenian, even if that's a Christian country that we would both
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agree has Christian brothers there, but is not America. So I think you're right that ultimately,
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we were going to come to blows on this. Like I said, I just wish this was not the moment. You know,
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this has obviously been simmering for a long time. It was happening before Charlie. You can see
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that reflected in the very tensions and pressures Charlie was facing. But ultimately, sadly,
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it seems this is when the line was finally drawn, and here we are.
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Yeah. And Arne, we have to consider the possibility that it's a blessing, that this is what God intended.
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And, you know, he wants people to have to recognize that, hey, Josh Hammer considers himself a conservative
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Republican and he's on the same team. But are his tactics any different than the left? And does he
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want to cancel people for having the wrong opinion? Does he want to make veiled threats at people,
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Tucker Carlson, because he didn't ask the right questions in an interview with Nick Fuentes?
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I've always contended that, you know, Republican or Democrat, you're capable of the exact same sin,
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the exact same tactics, you know, and, and, you know, it's only, it's only my Christian faith
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that puts restraints on me. Being a Republican or a Democrat puts no restraints on me.
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Yeah, that's a very good point. A lot of people are saying that these tactics are leftist. I'm
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guilty of that, too. But really, they're just immoral, right? And that's, that's what we should
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be saying. I think that's a, that's a very good point, rather than than just trying to say that,
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you know, those are the same thing. They're synonyms for each other. No, immoral is a is a
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separate category that is nonpolitical. I think I think that's an excellent point. Well, let's get to the,
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I guess, the crux of the issue, right? Like everybody kind of knows why we're here. But
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let's, let's just kind of lay it out for people. So in case they are unfamiliar. Tucker Carlson had
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Nick Fuentes on his show. Now, I'm going to say this at the outset, and I want to be clear,
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I'm not saying it because I need to qualify for my statements who hate me. Trust me, lots of people
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hate me right now. And I'm not saying anything about Nick Fuentes that I to placate them. I'm just
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saying it because it's true. Nick Fuentes is a guy who has lied maliciously about me. And he has
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wished he has promoted people who have wished harm on my family through his events. So this is a guy
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I have no respect for. Anybody who's treated you that way, you just would see them as someone not
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worthy of respect. I think that's a reasonable, even as Christians, if you came to me forgiveness,
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okay, I can forgive. But in a general rule, if that's the way you're treating me and my family,
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then I'm not going to extend an invitation to you personally. But Tucker decided to have Nick
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on his show. Now, I think that Tucker pushed back on Nick a fair amount and people pretending
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he didn't are looking for a reason to ignore that fact. I do think he could have pushed further.
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Frankly, I would have liked to see him push on the fact that Nick had attacked Erica Kirk,
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a grieving widow. I would have liked to see him push back on the fact that there are many
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allegations around Nick's entourage about possible abuse, including sexual grooming.
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Again, those could be false charges, but they would have been valid questions to ask him there.
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And the funny thing is that the people who are so angry at Tucker, they never point any of that
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stuff out. It's all about Israel. And that's where you can really tell, unfortunately, what the heart
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of the problem is. They were already attacking Tucker on Israel before the Fuentes interview.
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They were saying that him delivering a gospel message at Charlie Kirk's funeral service was
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anti-Semitism. So when you already have a frame like that, it's hard for me to take seriously that
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this Nick Fuentes issue really was a Rubicon for you. It seems like you were building up to this
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position before the interview and the interview just gave you the ammunition you wanted. Now,
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maybe we could say Tucker shouldn't have given them the ammunition, but I do think it's important
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to understand that frame before we then discuss the larger problem or non-problem of him talking to
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Nick Fuentes at all. Yeah, this is, I am like you. If I would have interviewed Nick Fuentes differently
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than Tucker. And that's not a hyper-criticism of Tucker, but there are things that were clearly
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left on the table that I'm interested in, would have questioned him about. But Tucker did provide
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some pushback and tried to show the audience like, no, this guy's an anti-Semite. I'm criticizing him
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very politely in a Christian fashion for being an anti-Semite, for singling out the Jewish people
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rather than criticizing Israel and Benjamin Netanyahu. Nick leans into some hyperbolic things
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about Jews. That's immoral, that for those of us that claim Christ as our Lord and Savior,
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we shouldn't do that. And Tucker pointed those things out. What many people wanted though,
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was for Tucker to name call Nick Fuentes, conduct, not that Candace Owens did a horrible interview,
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but she did a very combative interview with Nick Fuentes. And I didn't think it was a good look for
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either one. I felt like Tucker went about it more cleverly, but I, and again, everybody knows I'm a
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huge Tucker Carlson supporter and, you know, I consider the guy a friend and I'm totally on team
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Tucker. But I do think Tucker also used Nick Fuentes to demonstrate to the audience that like,
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hey, people are calling me anti-Semitic. I'm not, I'm clear. I'm, I'm using the Nick Fuentes interview
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to say, this is what anti-Semitism sounds like. Here's what my positions are. And, and I thought
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Tucker was clever about doing that. But again, there are people that just wanted Tucker to bring
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out a gun and shoot Nick Fuentes and be done with it. And, and, you know, they're disappointed and
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they're using it to, you know, to take their real shots at Tucker for interviewing Daryl Cooper for,
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again, not for allowing Daryl Cooper to say things about Winston Churchill that are supposed to be
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illegal to say. Everybody's got an agenda. The, the truth takes a backseat to people's agenda. They
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just, they want to destroy Tucker Carlson and illegalize certain conversations. And again,
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when you're standing on the firm foundation of Jesus Christ, you fear nothing. There's nothing to
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fear about Nick Fuentes. We allow Nick Fuentes to build an audience because no one wanted to deal
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with him and deal with the issues that he's bringing out. Is America's relationship with Israel,
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is it strategic? Is it healthy? Is it proper? These are questions young people want asked and
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answered. We've been afraid to do it. Nick Fuentes has filled the void and built an audience and a
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following. It's, it's our fault as Christians, as people with the greatest source of truth,
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we should have dealt with Nick Fuentes a long time ago and, and called him into repentance.
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And if he's unwilling to repent, then yes, then we back completely away from him and just,
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you know, God's going to deal with him and we'll let, you know, the truth fall where it may.
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Yeah. Again, you and I have talked about this before, so I don't want to belabor the point,
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but you're exactly right. That ultimately the reason Fuentes has a fan base is because the
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conservative movement was unwilling to address many issues. You know, the, not just the Israel issue,
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but the fact that young men are facing the problems that they're facing. Uh, the fact that so much of
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the world has been corrupted by an ideology that the conservative movement seems to more or less
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kind of onboard itself. Um, you know, the, the, the fact that anti-white hatred has been normalized in
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many of these areas. And, and, you know, that's a very interesting contrast. You know, there are many,
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many people on the left who are, and frankly, some people on the right who are virulently anti-white
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and nobody on the right has canceled anybody for interviewing them. Nobody has canceled anyone on
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the right for debating them. Many of those people will agree on certain things, maybe transgenderism,
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something, and they'll even have those people on and have a favorable discussion with them,
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right? That hatred of white people has not made them untouchable. It has not made them someone
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you cannot have discussions with. Nick Fuentes' attitudes toward Jewish people apparently do.
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I think as Christians, we should not harbor ethnic hatred of any people that is against our
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Christianity. It black, white, Jewish, whatever, right? Like this should be a consistent standard
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that we have an equal weight and measure, but it's very clear from the reaction of the conservative
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movement that there's one opinion you're not allowed to have. Now it's not just Jewish. There
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are other hatreds racially that the conservative movement would push back against more, but that
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one in particular will make you completely, completely persona non grata on the right, but
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they'll reach out to pretty much everyone on the left who has an anti-white position and say,
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let's have a discussion. Let's, let's talk about things. Let's move these things together.
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And, and that's the problem I have. It's not, oh, we should, you know, I'm, oh yeah,
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we should be mean to Jewish people. Of course you shouldn't. Of course you shouldn't harbor hatred
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in your heart, but that has to be equal. And when you do, when you apply that standard and you censor
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on only one side of that standard, everyone's going to notice. And guess what? You're just going to make
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someone like Nick Fuentes stronger. You're just proving his point to his followers. So again,
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you could have hit Nick on 13 different things that had nothing to do with Israel, but that's not what
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you wanted to hit him on because there's really just one sacred identity that we seem to be unable
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to treat just like hatred for anyone else. And that's ultimately my issue. We should just
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have equal weights and measures here. No question about it. I would not to the same degree,
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but I would say the American black identity gets a special level of protection that's unwarranted
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and unfair and unhealthy. And, you know, I, it's not to the same degree, but it's dang close.
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It's just factually true. And so I, you know, in combination, black leftists,
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a part of the Jewish community that is very tribal, they have set a standard amongst themselves that if
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anyone is critical of us, uh, they've gone too far and their religious faith is in jeopardy,
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but, but the thing for me being a friend of Tucker Carlson, being someone that thinks,
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you know, Tucker has been a force for good when, when Josh hammer writes in the daily mail,
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and I know that's not an American newspaper, but it is a newspaper when he calls Tucker,
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the first sentence out of his mouth is he's the most dangerous man in America.
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Oh my Tucker Carlson. That's just mind blowing. And then when you ended by saying he needs to be
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neutralized, I just can't believe people aren't rebuking Josh. I'm like, what are we doing here,
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man? The most dangerous man in the world. And he needs to be neutralized or we have to neutralize him.
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And you can, you go into the analogy of a fox in a hen house and that now everyone wants to play
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the game. Well, he didn't mean eliminating that way. He, I mean, cut it out. Uh, and so, yes, there,
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there are things you can say about white people, particularly American white people, but it's just
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white people in general, uh, that is, is reprehensible. It's unfair. And the longer we tolerate it,
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the more, it won't just be Nick Fuentes. It's all the people that will be following in behind Nick
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Fuentes, young people and just smart older people aren't just going to tolerate, man, you can just
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say whatever you want about a white person and, and, and we're all good here. White people shouldn't
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tolerate it. Christians shouldn't tolerate it. Fair-minded people shouldn't tolerate it. American
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citizens shouldn't tolerate it. It's wrong. And it, it creates the Nick Fuentes of the world.
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Well, and yo, the, the generational aspect is so powerful here. You know, if you look at what is
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happening, um, you know, a lot of support for Israel in the United States, especially in the
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conservative movement has been tied to the idea of dispensationalism. The idea that ultimately there
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is a biblical, godly requirement to support the nation state of Israel, its political goals,
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its political leaders, and that any deviation from that belief is not just immoral or not being
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a conservative. It's, it's a direct violation of your Christian faith. Now, a lot of people,
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my age and younger have looked at dispensationalism and said, look, this is a relatively novel
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understanding of the Bible. Uh, it's very clear that the church did not believe this until like 150
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years ago at best. And maybe it's okay to return to a more traditional understanding that also makes
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far more sense for my nation and putting my nation forward as a priority. And because they have lost that
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support generationally, kind of everything else is unwinding from that. There's very few people
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under 40 in the conservative movement who aren't like directly paid to have these positions that
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believe that ultimately we should be that loyal to Israel. And again, I'm not trying to slander,
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like I should, I should phrase that because I'm not trying to make the, like everybody who agrees
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with Israel is paid off. Like, that's not what I'm trying to say. What I'm saying is that the people
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who were in the system and had professional positions for a long time and made a lot of money and had a lot
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of connections in the establishment built a lot of that in that environment where that was the way
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we understood our relationship with Israel. And it's just very clear that the up and coming
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generations do not have that outlook. And so if you want to make a case for supporting Israel,
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you really need to make it in an American first fashion, right? Like this is the benefit that we
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receive. This is why it makes sense for our country. And if you can't make the argument that way,
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and I think it's increasingly hard to make the argument that way, then you're, you're going to
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lose. And honestly, you deserve to lose because that's what should be the standard for whether
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or not we approach this. And I think the big panic we're seeing, Jason, is that these people
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who have been in charge of the conservative movement for so long, we're relying on institutional
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power. They wielded the fundraising, they wielded things like the Heritage Foundation.
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And so now when TPOSA and the Heritage Foundation and these large, powerful, donor-driven organizations
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are siding with Tucker Carlson and not with kind of neocons, all of a sudden, there's a panic mode
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because that's all they had left. They knew they had lost the young generation, but now they've lost
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the institutions too. And this is why we're seeing like all hands at deck on here because I think they
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know if they lose this battle, then they lose it all. If they lose the Heritage Foundation,
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Certainly. And look, I'm 58. And, and obviously I've been transparent that my serious journey as a
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Christian is about 10 years old. And so, and that, that's not a lot of time, but I'm 58. And,
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you know, Genesis 12 and 3, the way it's been interpreted makes no sense to me. And, and so
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I've rejected dispensationalism and I, you know, I, at 58 years old, I'm not a young person. I'm just
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like, Hey man, they're talking about the church. And, and the other thing that drives me crazy,
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Aaron, is that like Catholics and Protestants can disagree on how they interpret the Bible
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and still find an uncomfortable peace with each other that, you know, well, you got to believe
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what I believe, blah, blah, blah, blah. But, but on, if, if, if we disagree with the way Genesis 12 and
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3 has been interpreted through the Schofield Bible and, and other places, well, now we've lost
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our salvation. Right. And, and I've had ministers that I really respect who have, who have said for
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several years have told me like, Hey man, Genesis 12 and 3, that's not a salvation issue. That's why
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I don't focus on it. How, how I feel about Genesis 12 and 3 is not going to determine my salvation.
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And I agree with them on that, that, that, cause again, there's this thing we've done
00:24:40.920
in Christianity where it's like, Hey man, if you don't profess your love for black Americans,
00:24:49.220
you can't see heaven. I'm like, am I really that important? I don't, I didn't see that anywhere in
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the Bible. I, I, Jason Whitlock and black people are not the truth, the way, and the life. It's
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Jesus Christ. And so this standard that black people have made like, well, man, if, if you don't
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love me, you're no good with God. And people of the Jewish faith, many of them have set up that
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standard. Like you don't see, if you don't agree with us on Genesis 12 and 3, there's no way you can
00:25:26.120
be in good standing with Jesus Christ. I just don't see it in the Bible. Uh, and so, you know,
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both the groups, one that I may, I don't like the word pride, pride or proud, but I'm part of the
00:25:42.460
black so-called community. I love being black. This is the way Jesus, God made me. I love it,
00:25:48.860
but I completely disagree with our victimhood tactic and setting ourselves up as some sort of
00:25:55.380
standard that if you don't love us, uh, you're, you know, you're outside the faith. And I'm not
00:26:02.100
trying to say you should hate black people, but I just don't work when someone tells me,
00:26:07.880
Hey, I don't like you, Jason. I don't care. And I really don't. I would, I'm more interested. How do
00:26:15.040
you feel about Jesus Christ? Because if you feel the right way about Jesus Christ, these problems you
00:26:22.520
have with me, once you meet me, get to know me, they will all disappear. Yeah. They will all
00:26:29.460
disappear. And, and, and that, that is the reality. And that's the conversation that the mainstream
00:26:35.940
media has never allowed us to have as it relates to racism or whatever is my dad was black and he was
00:26:44.080
racist. He did not like white people, but when he met a white person, very respectful towards them.
00:26:52.600
And if they treated him in a respectful way, he got along with them. Great. There was no problem.
00:26:59.020
And trust me, there are white people that consider themselves racist, but when they meet a black person
00:27:06.980
that treats them with respect and in a way, and they find out we got shared values, they got no problem.
00:27:13.580
And that's the true reality. And so that's what, again, when people say, Oh, that white guy, he's racist.
00:27:19.920
You should blah, blah. I go, well, my dad was racist and I loved him and he was great. And I never saw him
00:27:25.340
mistreat anybody that treated him well. So, you know, I'm going to let this older white dude or younger
00:27:31.980
white dude think whatever he wants, I'm going to do me. And if he's got a Christian bone in his body,
00:27:39.100
he's going to watch me do me and be like, Oh, I'm good with him. That's the beauty of Christianity.
00:27:48.120
Agreed. And, and, and, you know, there's, there's a joke post on Twitter that that brings to mind
00:27:52.780
something like, you know, the racist community doesn't really care what color you are, as long as
00:27:56.760
you're sufficiently racist. Yeah. That's the joke, but, but, but seriously, but, but in all seriousness,
00:28:01.780
you're right. That ultimately very few people, uh, once you actually get it, especially again,
00:28:07.160
if they have a true Christian belief, you get them in the room, they're just going to find
00:28:10.720
themselves completely incompatible, uh, with someone. Now, ultimately they might have different
00:28:14.820
cultures. Again, I do believe that nations are apart for a reason. You have different cultures,
00:28:18.860
you have different traditions, the God, God made us into nations because we were meant to live in this way.
00:28:23.620
And a, a, a, a beautiful Japanese Christianity or a beautiful Armenian Christianity or a beautiful,
00:28:29.080
you know, Finnish Christianity is going to look different than an American Christianity,
00:28:32.980
but it's still going to be Christianity. And we can find our brotherhood in, in our agreements on
00:28:37.780
Christ. And you're of course, right. You know, Catholics and Protestants look, yeah, the 30 years
00:28:41.740
war was a thing, but today we're, it's more or less a detente, right? Like there's, we're not going to go
00:28:46.140
to war over this stuff, but when it comes to Israel that you will go to war with. And frankly, that kind of
00:28:51.960
says everything, right? Like where does your real value lie? Where's your real identity lie? It lies
00:28:56.880
over the things you will go to war on. And sadly, if you're willing to go over to war over Israel,
00:29:03.320
then I got to say that's clearly where your, your value line is drawn. Now I've seen
00:29:10.020
some really horrific behavior, of course, on the anti-Israel side. I've said, you know,
00:29:17.140
when people were talking about, Oh, well, Charlie Kirk was assassinated by Israel and all that. I
00:29:21.360
immediately said, this is garbage. Don't talk like this. This is stupid. If you got it, if you've got
00:29:26.580
some kind of real criticism of Israel, great. We'll have that discussion later. This is not how you
00:29:31.960
should act after Charlie Kirk's death. But now I'm looking at the left and their attempt to smear
00:29:38.980
everyone as a racist and to smear Charlie Kirk as a racist and a fascist and say, that means we should
00:29:45.200
be able to kill him. Right? Like that, that's what was on the bullet shot at Charlie Kirk. Hey,
00:29:50.440
fascist catch. Now, Jason, we all agreed a few weeks ago. I'm pretty sure that's what I saw,
00:29:57.180
at least on Twitter, that that charge towards Charlie Kirk was instrumental in getting him killed.
00:30:02.820
The anti-fascists, as they like to call themselves, the communists that want to murder you,
00:30:08.060
they will use that as an excuse to treat you however you want. It's a moral blank check
00:30:11.900
to say whatever you want to do and do whatever you do to people you hate. And now I'm watching
00:30:18.020
tons of guys who all agreed with that two weeks ago, call every single person. They disagree with
00:30:24.760
the fascists. I even saw like John had poured words. That's a whole nother problem. Right. But he,
00:30:30.120
he was sitting there calling Sean Davis, some leader of the Hitler youth who was reading the elders of
00:30:37.040
Zion because he disagreed with him. Like that is just, I'm sorry. These are, these are open calls
00:30:42.880
to murder. When Randy Fine says Tucker Carlson is, is a, is a Nazi and a Hitler youth leader. He is
00:30:48.960
calling for the death of Tucker Carlson. And I will simply not pretend anything else. This is completely
00:30:53.840
demonstrable behavior. It is a call, open call for violence. There is zero space for it on the right.
00:30:59.020
There wasn't any space for it three weeks ago, but all of a sudden Israel reenters the discussion
00:31:03.380
and it turns out everyone who disagrees with me, even on the right is a Nazi. And by the way,
00:31:08.180
I can say and do whatever I want to them because it's a moral blank check. We have the same ideology
00:31:12.380
as the left at the end of the day. It's, and it's important. The conversation we're having right now,
00:31:19.100
the things we're doing over social media in terms of standing with Tucker Carlson and calling it out
00:31:28.620
in real time and calling out the hypocrisy. It's all very important to obviously everybody should
00:31:37.520
like Charlie Kirk was assassinated in front of everybody. He wasn't a president. He wasn't a
00:31:45.900
senator. He wasn't a politician. And if, if who, whatever forces, and I truly do not know what
00:31:53.600
forces and I'm open to any explanation that, that killed Charlie Kirk, those same forces are certainly
00:32:00.460
capable of doing the same thing to Tucker Carlson. They're capable of doing it to you or I. And so
00:32:07.000
that's why it's important for people to be like, Hey man, we got to draw a line in the sand here. I, I,
00:32:14.520
I don't want to read newspaper articles saying Tucker's the most dangerous man. If he's the most
00:32:20.400
dangerous man in America, someone should kill him. And that's basically what you're justifying.
00:32:26.260
And then these other people that you've referenced that I've seen it all, because I've been very, uh,
00:32:33.500
uh, in tune with this and concerned about this and, and on a positive note, cause we can sit here and
00:32:40.000
just belittle and belabor the problems, but this is why what Kevin Roberts and the heritage foundation
00:32:47.800
did was so courageous and so important. And we need to celebrate, uh, Kevin Roberts. Uh, and I would
00:32:56.320
also celebrate TP USA, uh, in the same, in not as much, but in the same way that they haven't backed
00:33:04.420
away from Tucker Carlson. And then there's a lot of pressure for them to do that. And maybe at some
00:33:09.600
point they'll bend, but I think as long as Kevin Roberts and others start hopping on board,
00:33:15.700
they're less likely to, uh, but, but, you know, I, I, I got, this is authentic. When I saw Kevin
00:33:25.660
Roberts video, I cried. I was like, holy cow, men are standing up and they're taking bold stances.
00:33:34.680
And it's, I don't know how long it's been 10, 15 years since men have really stood up and taken a
00:33:42.580
bold stance. And, and I got a message from Tucker that he was equally as moved by what Kevin Roberts
00:33:52.040
and heritage did. I, I, and that's where my hope comes from. It, and, and I actually do have hope
00:34:00.240
and optimism when I see Kevin Roberts and the heritage foundation, when I see what you're doing,
00:34:05.920
when I see what I'm doing and others that are rallying around Tucker Carlson, it gives me hope.
00:34:12.580
No, I agree. And you're absolutely right. We shouldn't just be focusing on the denouncements
00:34:17.160
or the decrying. We should be focusing on the fact that men of that stature, stature,
00:34:23.240
operating institutions of that importance are willing to, to take a stand. And I'll say, you know,
00:34:29.780
TPUSA, the easiest thing in the world for them would have been to just cave to all of this,
00:34:34.180
right? Like Charlie clearly loved Israel. No, no matter how much he had had other doubts about,
00:34:38.920
you know, kind of the, the larger program, it would have been very easy to just be like, well,
00:34:43.440
Tucker is the worst and we can't, you know, and, and just bury him under this stuff. And,
00:34:47.620
and they haven't, maybe, maybe they're not, they have not as been as forceful as Kevin has been,
00:34:51.160
but they have been consistent in the face of pressure. Um, and I think that that is, uh,
00:34:56.200
rather admirable, especially again, for an organization that was very clearly, very heavily
00:35:01.860
donor reliant on many people who disagree with Tucker Carlson. Uh, and so it's been impressive
00:35:07.300
to see them have a moral clarity and loyalty around that. Cause I'll say this, um, you know,
00:35:12.780
I have disagreements with many people, uh, on this issue, right? They're, they're at varying levels
00:35:19.060
of disagreements. Some of them are, are, you know, minute, you know, some of them are vast. Um,
00:35:24.280
but those people who have really been my friends, we're fine on this issue, you know, and people who
00:35:30.940
are professional and have big audiences, we're fine. Like we're still talking, we're still friendly.
00:35:36.640
This is, this is not a problem because loyalty is more important than ideology. Like loyalty is just
00:35:42.760
more important. That tells me more about you that you believe in coming alongside a Christian brother
00:35:48.460
and, and lifting them up. Even if you disagree with them, even if you say, ultimately, I'm going to
00:35:52.800
sit you down and we're going to talk about where we disagree that, that disagreement and that
00:35:58.060
conversation is internal, right? Because that's where we operate. We bring our instruction. We bring
00:36:04.840
our correction first to the person who's wronged us or the person we think is wrong, not directly to
00:36:10.580
the public to try to, you know, crucify them for attention in the public. Now we're, we're coming up
00:36:16.520
on some time here and I don't want to keep you too long, but I do want to ask you this before we go.
00:36:21.240
A lot of people have pointed out, Sean Davis of the Federals, one of them,
00:36:26.800
that this is largely a proxy war on J.D. Vance, that the reason they're going, you know, there,
00:36:34.940
there's a lot of personal, you know, hurt feelings flying around, but ultimately J.D. Vance represents
00:36:40.760
the new right, a non-interventionist right, a, someone who opposes neoconservatism in,
00:36:47.280
in large degrees. And he, he's kind of the true successor of Trump and the MAGA movement.
00:36:52.760
And because of that, the people who never wanted Trump, and it's hard not to notice a lot of these
00:36:57.480
people were never Trumpers or, or, or just came back on board. And they, you know, these people
00:37:03.300
are suddenly the ones going after Tucker Carlson. They can't go after Trump anymore. They learned
00:37:07.320
that won't work. And they've learned that even going after J.D. Vance is dicey, but what they can do is
00:37:12.720
go after Tucker. And if they can kill Tucker and they can kill the new right and the online right,
00:37:18.620
then J.D. Vance won't have like the momentum inside the movement. I want to get your reaction
00:37:24.380
and possible impressions to that analysis. That's fascinating. And, you know, I may,
00:37:31.240
I'll reach out to Sean who lives here in Nashville. We may have to try to get him on the show because
00:37:36.260
doesn't Tucker's son work for J.D. Vance? He does. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah. Ironically,
00:37:43.160
his name is Buckley, but yeah, that is ironic. But, but yeah, that's, that's fascinating. That's
00:37:51.040
something I hadn't considered. Uh, Hmm. I, you, you caught me off guard with that. I can see it. I'm,
00:37:59.240
I'm going to try to get Sean Davis on the show to talk about it, have him unpack it some more. Um,
00:38:04.920
that, that, that, now the never Trump crowd is still the never Trump crowd. They've gritted their
00:38:11.860
teeth for the last 12 years and dealt with Trump because they've had no choice, but have they ever
00:38:18.780
been truly comfortable with Donald Trump and, and just the lack of control that they've had over
00:38:26.100
Trump? And it's not that they've had no control, but they haven't had nearly as much control as
00:38:31.460
they're used to having with the people that are installed in the presidency.
00:38:34.920
It's they want to put an end to that. Trump has been too much of a maverick, too little,
00:38:40.460
too unpredictable. And they don't, yeah, I could see them like J.D. Vance cut from the same cloth
00:38:47.660
and more of this Trump phenomenon would, would be a bad thing for the never Trump crowd.
00:38:53.760
All right. Now, finally, I know this is off topic, uh, but I have to ask cause you're an expert. Um,
00:39:00.060
so, uh, my Buccaneers, uh, on an incredible run, uh, as a, as a, as a, as a, someone who's born in
00:39:06.500
Tampa, I'm a rare Florida native, uh, you know, been my team for a long time, long suffering,
00:39:11.400
you know, very few of our opportunities to truly, uh, suffering. You just won a Superbowl three
00:39:16.160
years ago. Yeah. But before that, how long ago, Jason, how long, right? I was in high school,
00:39:20.540
uh, but you know, to the last one. So, so yeah, I hear we're, we're not in as dire straits.
00:39:24.740
It's not like the Cubs before they won the world series, but, but you know, we're, we're,
00:39:28.400
we're not exactly you. We're not the Patriots. We're not the chiefs. We're not used to lining
00:39:32.000
these babies up on a regular basis, but what do you think about the run, uh, the Tampa Bay
00:39:37.260
is on this year, especially as it's missing some critical, uh, uh, some critical players,
00:39:42.580
some critical veterans on the team. I'm going to keep my feedback in line with what we've been
00:39:48.200
talking about. And this is cause this is what I do on my show. We talk sports, but we talk it
00:39:52.520
from a cultural and biblical perspective. The Buccaneers have two unique forces at work
00:40:01.700
and, uh, encouraging and lifting this team up. Baker Mayfield has a clear chip on his shoulder
00:40:08.220
and wants to prove and justify why he was the number one overall pick despite washing out
00:40:14.200
in Cleveland. Baker Mayfield has discovered a faith in Jesus Christ that has strengthened him
00:40:21.660
and inspired him. And then the head coach, Todd Bowles is a true believer and he won't play the
00:40:30.800
racial political game. He, I don't know if you remember this arm, when they asked him about
00:40:35.840
being a black coach and coaching against Mike Tomlin, uh, Todd Bowles was like, what are you
00:40:41.880
talking about, man? We ain't thinking about any of that. You know, we're just two coaches and we're not,
00:40:46.580
he's not one of these racially idolatrous sports figures, Todd Bowles. And so I think he set a
00:40:54.760
tremendous tone with the team. Many of these teams, uh, suffer from a victim mentality because it's
00:41:02.200
tolerated by these coaches and in honor of wokeness. And you can't do that, uh, with Todd Bowles as your
00:41:09.980
head coach and with someone with such a dynamic personality with a chip on a shoulder like Baker
00:41:15.660
Mayfield. And so I think that's why they've been able to stay afloat despite all the injuries and
00:41:22.540
stay really relevant. And they are Baker Mayfield, uh, is one of the top 10 candidates for MVP. And at
00:41:30.440
one point he was probably the top candidate and, and the, you know, the season that Tampa's having,
00:41:36.840
uh, doesn't really surprise me given the values that are, have been instilled within that culture
00:41:43.140
through Baker Mayfield and Todd Bowles. And they're one of the teams I'm rooting for and would like to
00:41:47.920
see in the Superbowl, just because I think of the message that they will send. I will say this though,
00:41:53.420
aren't, if they do make it to the Superbowl, I won't be watching. I'm not watching the Superbowl
00:41:58.440
and I'm damn sure not participating in the halftime show with this bad bunny deal. So I'm gonna watch
00:42:03.540
everything up to the Superbowl and then I'm out. Well, TPSA has that, uh, alternative halftime
00:42:09.880
show and rumors are that Creed might be playing there. So as someone who has been, uh, you know,
00:42:16.560
pushing for the Creed, uh, halftime show for a very long time, uh, let's hope that that is a,
00:42:21.540
a suitable alternative, uh, to the horrible, uh, display the NFL is, is planning at that time. Uh,
00:42:28.680
but, but I'm glad I got to get the football question. And if I had, my father would have
00:42:31.740
never, uh, would have never forgiven me. He's like, if you're gonna have Jason on the show,
00:42:35.180
you gotta ask him about football. It's not okay to ignore it. So I wanted to say that I really
00:42:39.600
appreciate you coming on, man. I know you've got a couple different YouTube channels now. So can
00:42:45.680
Uh, main shows every morning at 10 AM central time. Uh, it's just youtube.com slash Jason Whitlock.
00:42:53.940
Uh, then we have a harmony channel where we talk about things from a more explicit biblical point
00:43:00.780
of view. Uh, I believe that's a Jason Whitlock, uh, harmony. Uh, and then we have something I'd like
00:43:08.380
to do with country music, uh, called BYOG myself and Jeffrey Steele, uh, talk country music on that
00:43:17.180
channel and just talk about the music industry on that channel. So yeah, check me out. You can get
00:43:21.960
me in three different locations. Would love for you to come join us. Fantastic guys. We'll make sure
00:43:27.300
that you are of course watching Jason's show. And if it's your first time on this channel, you need to
00:43:31.800
click subscribe, the bell notifications, all that stuff on YouTube. So you know, when we're going live
00:43:35.800
and if you want to get these pod podcasts as broadcasts or the other way around, if you would
00:43:39.740
like to get this as a podcast, you need to subscribe to the Orr McIntyre show on your favorite podcast
00:43:43.920
network. Thank you everybody for watching. And as always, I will talk to you next time.