The Auron MacIntyre Show - The Joel Berry Debate： After-Action Report

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00:00:30.000 Hey everybody, how's it going?

00:00:31.660 Thanks for joining me this afternoon.

00:00:33.140 I am Oren McIntyre.

00:00:35.500 Before we get started today, I just want to remind you that one of the ways we keep the lights on around here is subscriptions to Blaze TV.

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00:01:06.340 All right, guys.

00:01:07.780 So I recently had a debate with Joel Berry of the Babylon Bee.

00:01:13.580 It's been a long time coming.

00:01:15.060 Joel and I have talked before.

00:01:16.600 He's actually been on this channel originally.

00:01:18.600 But for a long time, we've had some disagreements on multiple levels and Tim Pool wanted to bring us together.

00:01:25.560 Now, if you've seen the debate, you know that the debate ended up being really more of a debate between Tim Pool and Joel Berry than me and Joel Berry, which, you know, is fine.

00:01:37.260 I've been on TimCast multiple times now.

00:01:40.340 It's always been a show where you've got to jump in.

00:01:42.540 You've got to interrupt.

00:01:43.640 You've got to make yourself heard.

00:01:45.220 That's just always been the nature of it.

00:01:46.920 But I thought the debate would be a little more a little more one on one.

00:01:50.360 But let's just say that Tim went in there pretty lit.

00:01:53.280 He was very, very angry specifically at Joel Berry and the way that he has protected James Lindsay because James has been, well, really awful to everyone, but particularly to Tim.

00:02:03.760 He's lied about him, just like he lies about everyone, and Joel has supported this pretty much every step of the way.

00:02:10.520 So Tim came in there very fiery towards Joel.

00:02:14.820 I was hoping we would have a little more exchange on the issues while I find James to be repugnant.

00:02:22.240 Ultimately, his personality is not what I wanted to talk about.

00:02:25.680 I wasn't there to discuss the Twitter beef, as it were.

00:02:28.760 I wanted to work out the foundational issues, because I think at bottom, the problem is that Joel Berry just does not understand the argument being made.

00:02:37.620 And you could say that's because he's choosing not to understand it.

00:02:41.980 He just doesn't have the background knowledge.

00:02:44.240 I'm going to err on the side of he's a comedian.

00:02:46.280 This is in his wheelhouse.

00:02:47.760 It takes a lot of time for someone like that to kind of grasp what's going on here.

00:02:51.800 Either way, I wanted to drill down and lay that out.

00:02:55.040 And if after that, Joel still had disagreements, at least I would know he had the facts, and he was just making bad decisions from there.

00:03:02.400 What we ended up doing was having a lot more discussion, again, on kind of the interpersonal nature, how Joel felt about Nick Fuentes, how Tim felt about James Lindsay.

00:03:14.040 But in the middle of that, I think we did discover some very important things.

00:03:18.500 I think we did uncover some very important differences.

00:03:21.820 So I think it is worth going back and talking about this disagreement.

00:03:27.400 I think that while it was disappointing that we were not able to focus as much on the topics that I wanted to, and I wasn't able to say as much as I wanted to, I think that ultimately, Tim did reveal some pretty critical things along with myself in cross-examination with Joel.

00:03:45.040 I do feel bad.

00:03:46.040 I didn't want Joel to be in a 2v1 situation.

00:03:48.420 I knew Tim would kind of be on my side on this, but I did not realize how passionate Tim was about kind of the way he had been treated by James Lindsay.

00:03:56.680 Again, I think Tim's entirely justified because James has been just absolutely horrific.

00:04:01.700 He's lied.

00:04:02.580 He's slandered.

00:04:03.360 It's just completely immoral.

00:04:05.140 But ultimately, while we didn't touch all the ground I wanted to, I do think that some important things were revealed.

00:04:13.400 So I want to get in there and kind of break down what happened.

00:04:16.440 Now, I'm not going to show you all the clips because it ended up being like two and a half hour debate.

00:04:19.520 We still barely got to anything that we wanted to get through.

00:04:23.100 So I'm just going to kind of talk about the general situation.

00:04:26.960 If you want to watch the whole debate, you can.

00:04:28.760 Again, it's two and a half hours.

00:04:30.460 Encourage you to do so.

00:04:31.500 But there was no way I was going to be able to clip all the relevant stuff out of that for this discussion.

00:04:35.880 So just know that it's there.

00:04:37.280 You don't have to take my word for it.

00:04:39.420 I'm going to characterize the way the things I see it.

00:04:41.640 But if you want to see the original game footage to make sure that I'm not being biased or you at least understand my bias, then it is there for you.

00:04:50.160 So let's start with a few things first.

00:04:53.820 First, the the the interesting thing revealed in this debate were there were a few different aspects of what was going on that were revealed during this discussion that I think are critical.

00:05:08.380 So the first one is that Joel has not thought very much about his own political coalition.

00:05:16.180 So one of the things that Joel has said over and over is that he does not like the way I characterize the nature of politics.

00:05:23.640 I'm too Machiavellian.

00:05:25.460 I point to guys like Carl Schmitt and his friend enemy distinction to describe the mechanisms of politics.

00:05:31.860 Joel does not like this.

00:05:33.860 He thinks that the people on my side of, I guess, the new right versus establishment conservatism debate, he doesn't like the people who happen to end up on my side.

00:05:44.460 And because I'm on a side with them, I'm doing something wrong.

00:05:48.120 So this is kind of the classic guilt by association.

00:05:51.240 You're standing next to X.

00:05:53.720 And so you must hold all of his beliefs.

00:05:56.680 One of the biggest figures in this, and this is why he's in the thumbnail, ultimately is Nick Fuentes.

00:06:01.640 Like this is the big bad.

00:06:03.080 This is this is the Voldemort.

00:06:04.620 This is the scariest man in the world to Joel Berry, the most dangerous man in the world.

00:06:08.680 So if you're standing anywhere in the vicinity of Nick Fuentes, you must share all of his values, all of his beliefs, all of his positions.

00:06:18.080 And therefore, you are morally tainted by that association.

00:06:21.820 It doesn't matter if you don't hold them.

00:06:23.520 It doesn't matter if you don't espouse them.

00:06:25.060 It doesn't even matter if you've personally decried them.

00:06:28.120 You just happen to be on the same side.

00:06:30.300 And therefore, you are Nick Fuentes.

00:06:32.360 Everything said about Nick Fuentes applies to you.

00:06:34.800 He did not think about the fact that he is guilty of everything that he was accusing people like me and Tim of being guilty of.

00:06:46.440 And Tim, to Tim's great credit, Tim really drilled down on this and put Joel, I think, in a box repeatedly.

00:06:54.460 So, you know, Tim obviously went first to James Lindsay and said, hey, this is a guy that has been a new atheist.

00:07:02.900 He's argued against God's existence.

00:07:05.300 He's made fun of people for believing in God.

00:07:08.460 And even if you think he's moved on some of this stuff, he's still, you know, I don't want to get into James' personal life.

00:07:15.820 Just to say he is not living in accordance with biblical truth in certain areas.

00:07:21.320 And so, ultimately, this is not someone you should associate yourself with.

00:07:28.020 He's lying about people constantly, spinning radical conspiracy theories, trying to get people doxed and fired.

00:07:34.280 Like, this is a very bad person that you should not be associating yourself with.

00:07:39.180 And Joel's response was basically, well, you know, James is all the things you said, but ultimately, I don't care about that because he publicly espouses the things I want to believe in.

00:07:56.280 So, therefore, James is on my side.

00:07:59.500 I don't care about his personal life or his other decisions, the other ways in which he has kind of countered what I believe in.

00:08:08.960 Ultimately, because James agrees with me on a few issues, those are the things that matter.

00:08:16.120 And so, this is, he's on my team.

00:08:18.440 I don't really care about the rest.

00:08:19.680 And what Joel doesn't understand is he is describing, quite perfectly, the friend-enemy distinction.

00:08:26.480 Or, sorry, Joel doesn't understand.

00:08:28.140 With James, he's describing the friend-enemy distinction.

00:08:31.200 That there is a, there are issues at the core of their coalition.

00:08:36.800 And that, ultimately, Joel will make allowances for really bad behavior and deeply immoral behavior as long as it's in the service of his cause.

00:08:47.100 He doesn't care if James lies about Tim Pool.

00:08:49.240 He doesn't care if James lies about me.

00:08:51.140 He doesn't care if James goes around and tries to hurt people, get them doxxed, get them fired.

00:08:55.780 None of that matters to Joel because James agrees with him.

00:09:00.760 And that just, he just laid that out there as if that was a perfectly reasonable argument.

00:09:07.360 And to be fair, it is.

00:09:08.680 So, you know, again, Tim Pool, astutely here, pointed out that, okay, the difference between you and Oren is that Oren already admitted that and already said that.

00:09:18.940 And you had to come out here and say it now.

00:09:20.720 And you still don't understand why that makes you a hypocrite.

00:09:22.900 Because Joel's entire argument from the beginning has been you are guilty by association for having Nick Fuentes anywhere near you, even if you disagree with him, even if you have denounced things he said.

00:09:34.580 It doesn't matter just because you might agree with Nick on, like, anti-wet bigotry or certain problems with Israel.

00:09:42.860 You are just guilt by association.

00:09:45.720 Everything he's ever said, everything he's ever done, it's applied to you.

00:09:48.800 You're guilty of all of it.

00:09:50.300 I, Joel Berry, don't do that.

00:09:51.640 My side doesn't do that.

00:09:52.680 That's why we are morally better.

00:09:54.120 We have principles and you don't.

00:09:55.980 But what Tim really exposed is that Joel has no principles when it comes to his political coalitions.

00:10:03.740 Both of us ended up pointing out that you don't see Joel Berry going after people like Dave Rubin.

00:10:12.620 Dave Rubin is a man who's in a gay marriage who has purchased children.

00:10:18.400 He's guilty of child trafficking.

00:10:19.840 He paid a woman to grow two children, birth them, and then took them for money.

00:10:28.880 Dave Rubin is by every definition a child trafficker, which Joel Berry claims is something that is horrible, that he detests.

00:10:38.320 However, Joel refused to say that Dave Rubin would be pushed out of the coalition.

00:10:44.800 In fact, he said, as long as Dave Rubin is a constitutional conservative that believes in liberty, he can be on Joel Berry's team.

00:10:53.860 Now, I may disagree pretty vehemently with some of the ways that Nick Fuentes has talked about things, the way he has treated certain people.

00:11:02.720 But as far as I know, at least, he's never involved himself in human trafficking.

00:11:08.500 Now, again, I could be wrong. Maybe that comes out tomorrow.

00:11:11.100 And if he does, by all means, condemn, condemn, condemn.

00:11:13.600 However, as far as I know, that's not been the case.

00:11:18.060 So, as a Christian, while I might find some of Nick Fuentes' behavior quite awful, none of it stacks up to human trafficking.

00:11:28.040 And yet, Joel Berry is more than okay to put someone like Dave Rubin on his side and to say, yes, of course, he's part of the coalition.

00:11:36.960 As long as he agrees with the friend-enemy distinction, as long as he agrees with the central premise that defines the coalition,

00:11:44.740 then I will excuse any other bad behavior he has.

00:11:49.140 Because Joel doesn't have any principles when it comes to political coalitions.

00:11:54.800 Whoever agrees with him is on his side, and whoever isn't, well, they're not.

00:11:58.860 And he doesn't care about the personal behavior.

00:12:01.080 He doesn't have some abstract principle about who can be on his side or not.

00:12:04.600 He doesn't have some absolute morality guiding his political coalition building.

00:12:09.600 Dave Rubin agrees with Joel.

00:12:12.140 Let's be frank. He agrees with Joel on Israel mainly.

00:12:15.180 And so, he's good.

00:12:16.740 But Joel Berry's not going to write any jokes about blowing up Dave Rubin with a pager.

00:12:22.680 He's not going to do any of that kind of stuff to Dave Rubin.

00:12:26.140 Because Dave Rubin is part of his friend coalition.

00:12:30.020 Despite his child trafficking, it just doesn't matter.

00:12:32.940 And Joel said repeatedly that he doesn't care what Dave Rubin does in his private life

00:12:40.520 as long as he publicly espouses whatever the principle is that Joel cares about.

00:12:46.740 So, again, this is fine.

00:12:49.900 This is how political coalitions work.

00:12:52.160 I understood this.

00:12:53.900 That's what I was trying to explain to Joel.

00:12:55.940 You are working in the exact way I told you you would work.

00:13:01.740 You believe and act politically the same way I explained to you that you would act.

00:13:07.060 Your actions are predictable because I have studied political theory and there is a way in which politics works.

00:13:13.940 I'm not judging you for it.

00:13:15.680 I'm not attacking you for it.

00:13:17.120 I understand how and why you got to the place where you put a Dave Rubin in your coalition.

00:13:21.880 I disagree with it, but I understand it.

00:13:24.760 But Joel does not get it.

00:13:28.280 He does not understand the mechanics of politics.

00:13:31.860 He does not get the dynamics that influence political decisions.

00:13:36.540 Again, that's fine.

00:13:37.480 He's a comedian.

00:13:38.040 But when you spend all your time attacking people online, saying they are unprincipled because of the people they are in a coalition with, and he is principled because of the people he is in a coalition with, and then you reveal that actually you have zero principles and will just go with anyone who agrees with you on a specific issue and you do not care in any way, shape, or form how they behave.

00:14:02.860 I mean, this is the Sam Harris thing, right?

00:14:05.960 Sam Harris says, yeah, I may have spent my entire last five years talking about the evils of censorship and how we have to have free and open discussion.

00:14:17.220 But, you know, if the news media wants to censor Donald Trump and lie and shut down just so Joe Biden can win, I don't care if Joe Biden has 15 children stacked dead bodies in his basement.

00:14:29.020 It doesn't matter.

00:14:30.320 The principles, I don't have principles.

00:14:32.860 As long as he agrees with me on this thing.

00:14:35.060 And Joel Berry had pretty much the exact same approach.

00:14:38.500 I don't care.

00:14:39.760 I don't care if Dave Rubin has bought 15 children.

00:14:42.920 The point is, he agrees with me politically, and so therefore, he can be in my coalition.

00:14:48.400 And again, this is not me denouncing Joel Berry for that decision, because I understand how political coalitions work.

00:14:55.260 What I am judging is the fact that Joel Berry has run around for a very long time saying, I have principles and you don't.

00:15:03.180 And the evidence is that the people on my side are good people who I have chosen because they are part of they have these principles in common with me.

00:15:12.080 And you don't do that, and you'll just do whatever it takes to win.

00:15:14.940 But when you drill down, actually, Joel is fine with having deeply immoral, deeply sinister people, child traffickers on his side, as long as they agree with him on certain issues.

00:15:28.580 As long as publicly they espouse those issues.

00:15:31.220 And he did this weird sidestep where he's like, well, but Dave doesn't publicly announce his surrogacy, which he absolutely has.

00:15:39.600 He doesn't publicly celebrate it.

00:15:41.860 He doesn't publicly push it.

00:15:43.420 Well, I don't know what to tell you, man.

00:15:45.020 Like, if you buy this, you know, children, and then you announce it online, and you talk about the difficulties of parenting, you go and have a podcast with Jordan Peterson about the, you know, being a new parent.

00:15:58.880 And you're treated on the Daily Wire as if, you know, that's just normal or something.

00:16:04.120 Actually, I don't think Jordan Peterson is on the Daily Wire at that point, so I shouldn't say that.

00:16:06.960 But if you are just treated as if that is a normal thing at the time, then you can't act like you're not approving of it in some way.

00:16:18.580 Like, yeah, this guy's literally on an apology tour for his purchase of children with some of the biggest conservative influencers in the world.

00:16:27.440 Yeah, I think that's advertising surrogacy, gay surrogacy.

00:16:31.880 I think that's advertising child trafficking.

00:16:33.380 So I think you can comfortably say, yes, he is involved in publicly espousing this worldview.

00:16:40.060 So then we got to this other weird place where Joel said, well, you need to understand.

00:16:45.160 And he goes to C.S. Lewis's explanation of the Tao, which I tried not to be too mean about.

00:16:50.660 I've read quite a bit of C.S. Lewis.

00:16:52.160 But he goes to C.S. Lewis's explanation of the Tao, and he says, well, you know, there's this Tao, there's this natural law.

00:16:58.200 And as long as you're working within the natural law, you're on the side of good.

00:17:02.180 And if you're working against the natural law, then you're not on the side of good.

00:17:05.860 And it doesn't matter if you say you're a Christian or even if you're living a Christian life, you're espousing Christianity, you're raising your children in Christianity, you are out there evangelizing and doing works on behalf of Christianity.

00:17:19.420 If you don't agree with Joel Berry, then you're not following the natural law.

00:17:24.220 You're not following the Tao.

00:17:25.960 And if you are James Lindsay and you or Dave Rubin and you're violating like all of the natural laws, like every like all of them, but you agree with Joel Berry, then you are following the Tao.

00:17:39.200 Therefore, you are Christian.

00:17:40.620 And so Joel Berry has created this litmus test by which he's the Pope, like he decides who is Christian and who is not.

00:17:53.660 But I'm not even kidding.

00:17:57.320 That was his assertion.

00:17:58.900 Like he gets to decide whether or not someone is living in the way of Christ.

00:18:04.580 And Dave Rubin and James Lindsay are.

00:18:09.040 And everyone that he doesn't like isn't.

00:18:13.060 And this was separate from the debate, but honestly, I saw it after and I was I was a little disgusted, to be honest.

00:18:19.600 I saw that Joel Berry had called a bunch of people I know to be good and faithful Christians pagan.

00:18:26.380 Because they didn't agree with him.

00:18:28.640 So he's tried to been trying to to to form this this new phrase pagan right since every other smear he's come up with is not working.

00:18:37.280 And so the pagan right, he's just saying you're not Christians.

00:18:40.580 And he knows that's what he's saying, but he lied about it.

00:18:42.660 He lied about it to my face.

00:18:43.840 He he went on about the pagan right while we were debating.

00:18:47.100 And then I laid out to him the ways in which I was espousing Christianity that he was not.

00:18:51.520 And I said, tell me how you are a real Christian and I am not a Christian, even though I am espousing these things.

00:18:57.300 And he said, oh, no, I didn't mean you.

00:18:59.920 But of course he did.

00:19:00.940 He was trying to include me in that coalition.

00:19:03.000 So he just kind of lied to my face.

00:19:04.800 And then he also went online and called a bunch of guys like William Wolfe and Nate Fisher, who I know to be Christian men who are raising, you know, I mean, William Wolfe's raising a family.

00:19:17.500 He's running a leadership foundation for Southern Baptists.

00:19:22.420 This is a Christian man.

00:19:23.480 He just disagrees with Joel Berry.

00:19:25.840 But Joel can tell William he's no longer a Christian because he disagrees with James Lindsay, because actually it seems like James Lindsay gets to decide who's Christian in Joel Berry's universe, which is amazing.

00:19:38.580 Truly amazing.

00:19:39.180 So Tim did a really good job, again, of pushing him into this corner and saying, look, you have to think about the way you are building political coalitions.

00:19:53.380 You can't turn around and look at guys like me or Oren and say, what you're doing has no principles and is immoral, but I am a morally upstanding person because I get to decide what Christianity is.

00:20:05.540 And I can just kind of attribute Christianity to child traffickers and polygamists, new atheists, but I can take it away from like dedicated Christian fathers, depending on how they feel about my political assertions.

00:20:20.300 Which was, you know, just gross.

00:20:24.440 And obviously he got beat up for it pretty bad, rightly so.

00:20:28.540 But he never walked away from it.

00:20:29.980 He just kept repeating that.

00:20:32.040 So the next thing I think that's valuable to drill down on is that Joel has not thought very carefully about the positions he is defending, which I think is kind of obvious for anyone who's watched him do so.

00:20:44.500 But when pressed on the issue of what he and James Lindsay do share, or he and Dave Rubin do share, the thing he kept saying is, well, they believe in liberty.

00:20:56.940 They're pro-liberty.

00:20:58.780 They're constitutional conservatives.

00:21:00.720 And so Tim and I said, okay, but you recognize that if your whole premise is we have to return to the Constitution, you need to tell me what version of the Constitution.

00:21:14.260 Because the 1790 Constitution is very different than the Articles of Confederation, and the Constitution post-Civil War is very different than the 1790 Constitution.

00:21:31.460 The 14th Amendment radically changes the way that we look at it.

00:21:34.720 It basically abolishes the 10th Amendment.

00:21:36.860 Then we have the addition of the incorporation doctrine after World War II, which, again, radically changes our understanding of federalism.

00:21:46.140 And then we have the Civil Rights Act.

00:21:47.880 And all of these things are revolutions inside the form.

00:21:51.400 Technically, we still have the Constitution.

00:21:54.560 But the way that we understand that Constitution changes.

00:21:58.840 And the weird thing is that Joel accepted that premise because it's obviously true, and he can't argue against it.

00:22:05.900 And Tim brought up multiple points where, you know, we still had state churches up until the 1840s, I believe.

00:22:14.380 Blasphemy laws were on the books well into the 18-1900s.

00:22:20.040 These, you know, blue laws, all these things that technically violate free speech and the free market and separation of church and state as it's currently understood,

00:22:28.420 the way that I think Joel basically defends it, those things were not in the original Constitution.

00:22:34.720 We have added them over time.

00:22:37.040 And it's very clear that Joel did not want to go back to the actual founding.

00:22:40.900 Like, he doesn't want to go back to the immigration laws of 1790, which restrict immigration in the United States to free white men of good character.

00:22:49.160 However, he doesn't want to go back to only, you know, white guys who are the heads of households or own land voting.

00:22:56.840 Like, he doesn't want to go back to the founding.

00:22:59.400 So if Joel doesn't want to go back to the founding, the original Constitution, what version of the Constitution does he want to go back to?

00:23:07.300 And Joel just didn't have an answer.

00:23:08.680 He said, well, I just don't know.

00:23:09.900 And you can't just not know when your entire argument is we have to do this.

00:23:16.140 This is the only way forward.

00:23:17.840 The only way forward is to go back to these things.

00:23:20.660 But you don't know what you're arguing for.

00:23:23.300 Because Joel Berry is fundamentally progressive in his understanding of the Constitution.

00:23:28.660 He believes that the original Constitution is insufficient.

00:23:32.220 He does not agree with the Constitution or its understanding in 1790.

00:23:36.540 He doesn't want there to be legal.

00:23:37.920 He doesn't want blasphemy laws.

00:23:39.280 He doesn't want an immigration restriction to European men of good character.

00:23:44.480 He does not want those things.

00:23:46.300 So what he wants is something down the line that we progressed to.

00:23:51.180 He thinks the original Constitution was flawed.

00:23:54.300 And he thinks that we need a different version of the Constitution.

00:23:57.800 Not the one we have now.

00:23:59.080 Not the one all the way in 2025.

00:24:01.880 But certainly not the one we had in 1790.

00:24:04.480 And no matter how many times we asked, Joel could not give us a date or a version of the Constitution.

00:24:11.660 A principle that he was comfortable with for like the final version of the Constitution.

00:24:16.960 And if your entire argument is we have to go back to this document and this thing, I'm about the American tradition.

00:24:24.620 I believe in American principles.

00:24:26.800 But you can't actually tell me which principles or what time.

00:24:32.120 Then you simply don't.

00:24:33.800 You're just slandering people.

00:24:35.460 You're trying to claim a tradition you don't understand.

00:24:39.580 You don't have an appreciation for.

00:24:42.060 You don't have any roots in.

00:24:45.120 I honestly think that the Constitution Joel Berry wants is the Schoolhouse Rock version.

00:24:50.860 Maybe not even that one because that one was around in what?

00:24:53.860 Schoolhouse Rock is the 1960s.

00:24:55.520 He wouldn't have been okay with what was going on then, right?

00:24:58.860 So I think Joel Berry, at best, wants 1990s Bill Clinton Constitution or maybe the 1980s Ronald Reagan.

00:25:07.780 He'd probably be more comfortable with that.

00:25:09.560 But I think when Joel wants to return to American tradition or the Founding Fathers, he means Ronald Reagan.

00:25:16.560 He certainly doesn't mean John Adams.

00:25:18.820 He certainly doesn't mean Alexander Hamilton, who was talking about how he wanted the president to be king for life

00:25:27.600 until the next one got elected when he died.

00:25:31.840 So he certainly wasn't talking about Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Jefferson's belief on race.

00:25:38.000 So I guess the problem is that Joel is just not familiar.

00:25:43.320 And again, he's a comedian.

00:25:44.260 That's okay.

00:25:45.340 He doesn't have to know all these things.

00:25:46.720 But he gets so angry and he denounces people's Christianity and says they're wicked and unprincipled.

00:25:54.000 But he doesn't even know the principles he's arguing for.

00:25:57.600 He can't name them.

00:25:59.020 He can't identify what period of the Constitution he would go back to.

00:26:04.020 What America is he looking to return to?

00:26:06.040 He doesn't know that answer.

00:26:08.100 The other thing he kept saying was liberty.

00:26:09.900 I agree with liberty.

00:26:11.380 And I pointed out very quickly that the type of liberty he agrees with is not the type of liberty that James Lindsay believes in.

00:26:21.300 James Lindsay's liberty is a libertine one.

00:26:26.320 This is not a man who believes in Christian social teaching.

00:26:29.720 So when he says liberty, that's not a clear enough definition.

00:26:35.120 I also believe in liberty.

00:26:36.320 I believe in ordered liberty.

00:26:37.600 I believe in an Aristotelian understanding of liberty.

00:26:41.400 But Joel's version of liberty just doesn't have a grounding.

00:26:44.080 Because I point out, like, well, Joel, liberty for libertarians means the ability to get married to four women or do meth or, you know, be gay married while growing pot.

00:26:54.620 I don't think that's what you mean by liberty.

00:26:56.680 And he agreed.

00:26:57.840 But he couldn't define what he did mean by liberty.

00:27:01.060 Because Joel has not thought through this.

00:27:03.380 And ultimately, this ties to another problem.

00:27:09.000 Joel, so again, he's a comedian.

00:27:11.760 He doesn't need to understand this stuff if he just stays in his lane.

00:27:14.620 But if you're going to go swinging in here, you, you, I'm sorry.

00:27:17.600 Like, I don't want to pull the expertise or I've read the books.

00:27:20.340 But at some point, it matters whether you understand the topic you're discussing.

00:27:24.960 Rinse takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door.

00:27:27.840 Expertly cleaned and folded.

00:27:29.400 So you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you.

00:27:35.480 Like tea time you.

00:27:37.480 Mmm.

00:27:38.280 Or this tea time you.

00:27:40.840 Or even this tea time you.

00:27:43.060 So did you hear about Dave?

00:27:44.620 Or even tea time, tea time, tea time you.

00:27:47.560 Mmm.

00:27:48.560 So update on Dave.

00:27:50.480 It's up to you.

00:27:51.520 We'll take the laundry.

00:27:53.000 Rinse.

00:27:53.580 It's time to be great.

00:27:55.560 You know, if Joel is making coherent arguments, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to, I'm not going to Douglas Murray him.

00:28:02.800 Have you ever been?

00:28:04.040 Have you ever been to the Constitution?

00:28:06.780 You know, like, I'm not going to demand that he has degrees or that he has certifications.

00:28:12.100 But he has to at least make coherent arguments that means he understands the background, right?

00:28:16.580 Like, Scott Horton, I don't think he has a degree in anything.

00:28:20.300 Or if he does, it's like a bachelor somewhere.

00:28:22.240 He's certainly not, not teaching a professor somewhere.

00:28:25.020 But Scott Horton has an encyclopedic knowledge of wars in the Middle East.

00:28:29.780 He just does.

00:28:31.160 You can like him or hate him, but he knows his stuff.

00:28:34.180 Even the people who hate him know that he's going to blow them away with his encyclopedic memory when it comes to this topic.

00:28:41.720 Joel has not done that.

00:28:42.940 Like, he has not immersed himself in the literature.

00:28:45.100 He has not made himself, look, I have a bachelor's degree in political science from a party school in Florida.

00:28:51.000 I don't have any fancy, fancy doctorates.

00:28:54.400 I'm not, I'm a layman who read a bunch of books, right?

00:28:57.440 But I think people have recognized that I've accumulated enough knowledge to speak at least at a level that's worthy of people to listen to me on this topic.

00:29:06.360 Joel has not familiarized himself.

00:29:08.580 And so the interesting thing is that Joel, because he has not defined any of these terms, he's not familiar with political science.

00:29:15.240 He's not familiar with philosophy rather than debate these issues.

00:29:19.800 He just gets angry at you for having to read, read philosophers he knows are the no, no boys, right?

00:29:26.240 He, it's just, it's again, just guilt by association.

00:29:29.200 He doesn't understand Carl Schmitt or Nick, Nick Land or, you know, Curtis Yarvin or Joseph De Maestra or any of these people.

00:29:40.760 He hasn't read them.

00:29:41.980 He hasn't paid attention.

00:29:42.960 He hasn't gone back and read Aristotle.

00:29:44.720 He doesn't have Machiavelli under his belt.

00:29:47.160 Again, all okay.

00:29:48.260 He's a comedian.

00:29:48.860 He doesn't have to do that stuff.

00:29:50.100 But then he gets angry when someone else does.

00:29:52.600 When someone else has that knowledge, he's like, well, no, no, no, we can't be reading books.

00:29:58.680 Books are bad.

00:29:59.820 We don't read books around here.

00:30:01.340 I told you who Christians are.

00:30:04.040 They're the people who agree with me.

00:30:06.020 So if you're trying to bring any of that philosophy in there, well, you're probably a bad actor.

00:30:11.900 It kind of reminds me, honestly, again, of kind of the Sam Harris, like the new atheist approach,

00:30:18.800 which this whole movement being attached to James Lindsay should sound familiar.

00:30:24.460 James Lindsay is running the new atheist playbook against Christians again.

00:30:28.380 It's just the same thing.

00:30:29.860 And Joel Berry is an accomplice.

00:30:31.140 He follows his lead, which, you know, Tim pointed out repeatedly.

00:30:35.900 Tim said, you know that all James Lindsay does is infiltrate movements and subvert them.

00:30:41.300 And he's literally tweeted out that that's what he's doing with Christianity.

00:30:44.640 You can find the tweet.

00:30:45.760 I'm not making this up.

00:30:46.840 I probably should have.

00:30:47.440 That's the one thing I should have been ready to say.

00:30:49.600 But he has said this before.

00:30:51.740 And Joel is just like, well, it's fine because currently he's attacking people that I don't like.

00:30:57.740 And it became very clear that Joel is not he's not going to engage with these arguments or these philosophers.

00:31:04.540 He's just going to say you're a bad person for having done so.

00:31:07.620 And again, it reminds me of the new atheist playbook, because if you go back and watch Sam Harris or, you know,

00:31:13.860 some of these guys first interact with Jordan Peterson or others, they don't know what to do because they're used to just being like, oh, well, Christians, you know, they're dumb and it's all dumb.

00:31:23.140 It's all Bronze Age mythology.

00:31:24.640 So I don't need to think about it.

00:31:26.600 But guys like Jordan Peterson, again, however you feel ultimately about Jordan Peterson, are well read in philosophy and psychology.

00:31:34.140 They're going to bring an academic discipline.

00:31:36.560 They're going to talk about it in an interesting and thoughtful way.

00:31:40.100 And Sam Harris was just not ready for that because he's used to just saying, well, I'm a biologist and I say that, God, I can't find your, you know, your spaghetti monster in the sky.

00:31:51.220 I have no biological evidence for spaghetti monsters.

00:31:54.300 So Christianity, no real.

00:31:56.880 But, you know, a guy like Jordan Peterson is going to introduce the idea of epistemology.

00:32:02.240 He's going to say, no, there's a way to understand truth that is not as simple as you are laying out.

00:32:06.160 And this is actually a classic traditional way to understand truth.

00:32:08.800 And we're better under, you know, we're better served by this understanding.

00:32:13.120 It's more holistic.

00:32:14.120 And Sam can't allow that understanding of truth.

00:32:16.800 He can't allow the context of philosophy and religion and psychology into his world because Sam Harris built his entire world on this new atheist materialistic premise.

00:32:28.220 He needs you to limit epistemology to science.

00:32:31.740 Because if you acknowledge a wider epistemology, then Sam Harris's entire argument breaks down.

00:32:37.260 His entire argument is basically, science is the only way to know anything.

00:32:42.160 And since I have the high ground in science, you are irrelevant.

00:32:46.540 And that's kind of Joel and by proxy James Lindsay's argument is like the only way that we are allowed to address this stuff is through this very narrow lens of carefully curated understandings of constitutions and politics.

00:33:04.980 And if you step outside of that, if you provide any context, if you're bringing in Aristotle and Aquinas, if you're bringing in Joseph Demastra, if you're bringing in Thomas Carlyle, if you're bringing in all of these other thinkers, and you're widening that understanding of politics, you're providing too much context, then it's quickly going to become clear that this, you know, this kind of really simple schoolhouse rock version of politics.

00:33:34.980 Politics doesn't work.

00:33:35.980 And that it's ignorant for us to pretend like this is sufficient.

00:33:40.660 So the only thing they can really do is kind of throw out these shallow bromides.

00:33:45.040 I'm for constitutional conservatism.

00:33:46.840 I believe in liberty.

00:33:48.160 I believe in truth.

00:33:49.300 But they have to reject when you start to drill down on any of that stuff.

00:33:54.760 Oh, that's that's a postmodern.

00:33:56.520 That's deconstruction.

00:33:57.760 No, you know, I don't think Aristotle is postmodern, actually.

00:34:02.600 Sorry, I don't think that's actually true.

00:34:05.840 I'm sorry.

00:34:06.280 I don't think Joseph Demastra was postmodern.

00:34:08.460 In fact, I think he was probably a much more doctrinaire Christian than you are.

00:34:13.820 I don't think you have context.

00:34:15.880 I don't think you have context for how politics works.

00:34:18.380 I don't think you have context for how Christianity actually was governed.

00:34:22.500 And you can kind of tell that by the next thing I want to talk about, which was Joel Berry's

00:34:26.460 solutions.

00:34:28.240 It became very clear that ultimately, Joel didn't have any solutions.

00:34:33.680 When Tim and I pressed him on like, okay, well, how would you fix this?

00:34:37.560 He's like, well, we just need to have a conversation and the truth will win out.

00:34:40.880 Oh, so we're back to the marketplace of ideas again.

00:34:45.480 We're we're just doing that because how's that been working?

00:34:49.420 Where is the evidence that that's true?

00:34:51.540 Well, there is none.

00:34:53.040 But Joel has no other arguments.

00:34:55.560 He doesn't.

00:34:56.700 His worldview does not allow for effective politics.

00:35:01.540 His worldview is designed to lose.

00:35:04.220 He is a beautiful loser.

00:35:06.500 He doesn't allow discussions of power.

00:35:08.740 He doesn't allow discussions of tactics.

00:35:10.880 And I kid you not, this was his real response.

00:35:14.020 We have to just pray and wait for spiritual revival.

00:35:19.440 Okay, look, I'm a Christian.

00:35:21.800 I think we should read our Bibles.

00:35:23.340 I think we should pray.

00:35:24.400 And I also want spiritual revival.

00:35:26.740 And I do agree that ultimately, if that came, that would solve many of our problems.

00:35:30.540 But this is just not how any Christian magistrate throughout history has behaved.

00:35:35.660 If you have any historical context to the way any Christians acted previously, they would all kind of laugh at Joel Berry here.

00:35:42.420 Like, no, Christians took political action.

00:35:46.360 They took power.

00:35:48.380 This is, of course, true in America.

00:35:50.680 What if the founders had just said, you know what?

00:35:52.540 I think the king is doing some bad things.

00:35:55.700 I think that the loyalists are wrong.

00:35:57.940 But ultimately, it's all about prayer and spiritual, you know, it's all about prayer and spiritual revival.

00:36:03.820 If we just read our Bibles enough, King George will go away.

00:36:07.740 If we just read our Bibles enough, the Redcoats will leave.

00:36:11.260 If we just, you know, read our Bible enough, they will recognize that we need certain inalienable rights, that Americans live in a particular way and deserve to be governed by their own people, their own representation.

00:36:25.720 Like, what if they had actually done that?

00:36:27.200 There were certainly people who were advocating for that.

00:36:30.880 But Joel would never say the founders were sinful or wicked for recognizing that, no, you had to take an action.

00:36:40.260 Like, the civil magistrates recognized that the way in which things were being conducted is no longer within the good of the people.

00:36:48.680 And they said, we have to throw off the current government and create a new one.

00:36:52.920 And they literally killed people over it.

00:36:55.640 So, the idea that the only Christian answer to, you know, political disagreements is, like, just pray harder about it.

00:37:06.420 Well, then, Joel Berry's just denouncing, like, large chunks of the Christian tradition, including the founding fathers.

00:37:12.360 Now, anytime we brought up any of this kind of stuff, he would just say, well, that's war, that's war.

00:37:16.840 Well, it wasn't a war until it was.

00:37:19.060 Founders didn't have to go to war over this.

00:37:21.800 They chose to.

00:37:22.780 And I think they were right to.

00:37:23.780 I think that ultimately, you know, however you feel about revolutions and monarchy, you know,

00:37:29.760 the English crown had lost the mandate of heaven in the United States.

00:37:34.100 They had simply lost their authority in the United States, and they deserved to be replaced.

00:37:39.000 But, I mean, let's be honest, the tyranny happening in America at that time is far less than tyranny happening in America today.

00:37:46.600 So, if it's just about listing the grievances, well, then I think we've got a pretty good justification to say we have the grievances now.

00:37:53.360 So, I don't think that's what Joel wants to ultimately argue, but he has no real effective solution.

00:38:00.040 His answer is just pray harder.

00:38:02.860 And this reminds me of a story, you know, my pastor told once.

00:38:07.540 You know, a man and woman, their house is on fire in the middle of the night, and they wake up, panicked.

00:38:13.300 They start running around.

00:38:14.820 They grab their two kids.

00:38:17.780 They grab their dog.

00:38:18.900 They grab, you know, a priceless artifact.

00:38:24.640 They run outside, and they realize that one of their children is still trapped upstairs.

00:38:31.400 The mother and father hit their knees, and they start playing,

00:38:34.380 Oh, God, please come and save our child.

00:38:37.940 Our child is trapped up there.

00:38:39.780 The house is on fire.

00:38:41.460 Please do a miracle and save him from this fire.

00:38:44.460 And then their neighbor walked by and grabbed the ladder off the side of the house and put it against the window

00:38:49.600 and walked up the ladder and grabbed the child, pulled him out of the window, and delivered them to the ground.

00:38:54.940 I think the point of the story is obvious.

00:38:57.220 There's nothing wrong with praying.

00:38:58.860 There's nothing wrong with being a Christian.

00:39:00.400 You should.

00:39:00.900 You should rely on God.

00:39:02.560 But also, you are God's instrument.

00:39:06.200 Like, Christians have a duty to do the thing, not just pray about it.

00:39:10.480 So, yes, pray for political change, and then make it happen.

00:39:15.580 Yes, pray for social change, but then make it happen.

00:39:20.000 Yes, pray for your country, but then do things that make it better, including winning elections and wielding political power.

00:39:29.320 Just saying, Oh, well, we can't think about power because we're Christians.

00:39:34.540 I mean, come on, man.

00:39:36.080 What are we doing here?

00:39:37.980 This is just insane.

00:39:39.340 And I don't ultimately think that Joel believes that.

00:39:42.400 Like, I don't think that he thinks that Christians shouldn't wield power.

00:39:46.040 He just doesn't like the people who are effectively doing it right now.

00:39:50.400 And that's the real problem.

00:39:52.260 So all these arguments about principles seem to crumble pretty quickly when Joel needs to establish a political coalition,

00:39:59.220 or Joel needs to censor people, or Joel needs to affect political change.

00:40:05.300 It's really just about the friend-enemy distinction.

00:40:07.680 He doesn't like the people on the other side.

00:40:10.620 And so when they do it, it's wrong.

00:40:12.300 And when he does it, it's right.

00:40:13.440 And that seems to be the entirety of the discussion.

00:40:15.860 And so there was, you know, just this constant dead end when it got to, okay, but how do you actually do this?

00:40:28.120 What does this really look like?

00:40:29.540 How does this bear out?

00:40:30.920 And I just don't think that Joel has thought very deeply about that.

00:40:34.420 And I wish that was what we had spent more of our time on.

00:40:37.600 I didn't want to spend all my time on James Lindsay or Nick Fuentes.

00:40:41.200 I didn't want to spend all my time debating who said what and who was mean to who.

00:40:45.980 I mean, again, don't get me wrong.

00:40:47.060 James is a vile person who has, you know, lied repeatedly about Tim.

00:40:51.560 I totally get why Tim was angry at it.

00:40:53.500 He had every right to pop off and, frankly, to call out Joel Berry's hypocrisy and associating with a guy he knows lies on a regular basis, who he has admitted lies on a regular basis, and who he never chastises.

00:41:05.660 Like, Joel Berry isn't going after James Lindsay for lying about Tim Pool or me, but that's because Joel does the same thing, because, well, it's okay when they do it, because brand enemy, right?

00:41:17.100 That is what defines Joel's morality inside of political coalitions.

00:41:23.140 So I do think this was, again, while I think that ultimately this was not the debate I wanted to have, it was illustrative of some pretty critical holes in Joel Berry's arguments.

00:41:34.160 He just, he doesn't care about principles and political coalitions.

00:41:40.200 He just doesn't like your political coalition.

00:41:42.940 He doesn't care about people's private lives or how they conduct themselves or even what they say in public as long as they're on his team.

00:41:50.620 James Lindsay can lie about people.

00:41:52.000 He can come up with conspiracy theories about me being an angel summoner and working secretly with the Catholic Church to produce demons.

00:41:59.000 He can call Tim Pool a Marxist plant sent there to subvert the right, and Joel's not going to say anything.

00:42:06.620 He's not going to say, oh, cross the line, too far, far, can't associate myself with James.

00:42:11.560 There is no principle there.

00:42:13.020 That is not a principle.

00:42:15.000 Sorry, it's just not.

00:42:16.340 And that's okay.

00:42:17.060 Again, I understand how political coalitions work.

00:42:19.500 But you can't then tell me you're moral because you're following the rules.

00:42:26.040 You have the one ability to discern who's Christian and who's not, and therefore you get to declare non-Christians Christians, child traffickers in line with Christ's teaching.

00:42:37.960 But guys like William Wolfe are beyond the pale.

00:42:41.520 They're pagan, right?

00:42:43.540 William Wolfe is a pagan for Joel Berry, but Dave Rubin, that's a man following the way of Christ because constitutional conservatism or something.

00:42:54.020 And this is the problem, again, is Joel Berry will say things like, well, these guys are classical liberals.

00:42:59.160 Dave Rubin and James Lindsay, they're classical liberals.

00:43:01.600 But no, they're not.

00:43:02.640 They're not even close.

00:43:03.880 You want to show Dave Rubin's lifestyle to John Locke?

00:43:11.280 You want to show James Lindsay's what he said about Christianity and his lifestyle to many of the founding fathers?

00:43:21.120 You think they would make it out of a room?

00:43:24.640 Like, no.

00:43:26.040 These people are not in any way classical liberals, right?

00:43:31.180 Like, it's not even close.

00:43:32.360 They're at best 1990s liberals.

00:43:34.440 And even then, no, not really, because even Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton had to stand out against gay marriage.

00:43:43.240 None of these people are classical liberal.

00:43:44.900 And remember, James voted, as far as I understand, worked on a campaign, like, you know, calling people or knocking doors or something for Barack Obama, voted for Hillary Clinton.

00:43:54.120 And somehow he gets to decide who's on the conservative movement.

00:43:58.260 And he is basically spoon-feeding Joel Berry tactics.

00:44:02.220 And this relationship is very strange.

00:44:05.580 I wonder if, ultimately, Joel feels like he needs to rely on James for some level of intellectual half.

00:44:12.060 Like, James is providing the intellectual arguments that Joel Berry doesn't know how to make, which is already embarrassing because James is very bad at that.

00:44:18.360 But he's better than Joel.

00:44:20.520 So, is that why he needs him?

00:44:22.600 Like, he needs that firepower?

00:44:24.040 That's what he brings to the table, I guess.

00:44:26.320 God help you if that's the case, that James Lindsay is your intellectual firepower.

00:44:30.480 But maybe that is the extent of the relationship.

00:44:33.400 Now, one thing that we didn't talk about very much, and in a way, I'm glad we didn't because it would have probably eaten up the whole thing.

00:44:40.100 But we didn't talk about Israel, which is, I think, a big point of contention for James and Joel.

00:44:45.200 In fact, I literally think it is their friend-enemy distinction.

00:44:48.820 I think that, honestly, is just what draws the line.

00:44:52.800 Like, if you agree with them on this, then you're fine, and it doesn't matter what else you believe.

00:44:58.480 And so, ultimately, I'm glad we didn't bring it up because it probably would have dragged down the conversation.

00:45:03.860 We would have gotten lost in the nuances of that.

00:45:07.200 And I honestly would like to talk about Israel as little as possible.

00:45:10.780 But you could feel that sitting in the background the whole time.

00:45:15.200 That, ultimately, that was kind of an elephant in the room that was not addressed.

00:45:18.980 Ultimately, probably better that it didn't.

00:45:21.180 It probably would have pulled the whole thing apart.

00:45:23.740 But I do think it's worth mentioning that that does feel like the true difference there that they didn't address.

00:45:32.580 That said, Joel and I have been in contact.

00:45:34.980 He is interested in doing another debate where him and I have the majority of the debate.

00:45:39.480 There's not a third party who's jumping in and having a large amount of input.

00:45:44.000 We've been bouncing around venues and possible moderators.

00:45:48.500 So, I'm hoping that works out.

00:45:50.360 I would like to have a direct one-on-one.

00:45:53.640 I will say this.

00:45:55.240 In person, Joel was perfectly kind, perfectly cordial.

00:45:58.480 So, I'm sure Joel Berry is a good dad and a good husband, honestly.

00:46:04.240 And that says a lot about a man.

00:46:06.220 So, I think that's probably the case.

00:46:09.660 I think that just when it comes to politics, he does not understand the nature of them and falls into exactly the behavior he thinks he's attacking.

00:46:18.660 But he thinks it's fine because he's doing it on the other side.

00:46:21.100 I genuinely think he's blind to the fact that he and James Lindsay behave exactly in the way that he's angry about the Gruyper's behavior.

00:46:28.960 I think he genuinely thinks the bad behavior only flows one direction.

00:46:33.480 Or, if there is bad behavior on his side, it's fine because ultimately he's on the side of truth and justice and, you know, what he thinks is Christianity, which I guess is Dave Ruman sometimes.

00:46:47.520 But he, that's how he sees it.

00:46:51.280 I disagree vehemently.

00:46:52.760 I think that's wrong.

00:46:53.700 I think that's morally corrupt.

00:46:56.100 But I think he's probably a good guy in the other aspects of his life.

00:46:59.680 Which is, which, again, politics isn't everything.

00:47:02.500 So, that matters quite a bit.

00:47:06.220 But I do think that ultimately we should come back together and have this discussion and work this out.

00:47:12.300 So, I hope that that does happen.

00:47:14.520 I think that a conversation in which I can really nail down these particular issues and kind of get him to attempt to answer those questions would be one in which I think we would gain far more clarity.

00:47:26.700 Though, again, like I said, as much as it was a little frustrating to be the spectator for Tim's debate with Joel,

00:47:33.120 I do think that Tim brought him to some contradictions that he was not able to overcome.

00:47:38.800 And I think that laid bare, unfortunately, for Joel, some real, I don't even say hypocrisy, because I don't think he's even considered it.

00:47:48.680 Like, I just genuinely think he doesn't grasp that the way he and James conduct themselves is an alias to the Gripers.

00:47:57.860 Like, it really is.

00:47:59.000 Like, that's how most people see them.

00:48:00.720 And he could not see that because he spends all day yelling at these people online.

00:48:06.940 I don't even know if he writes jokes for the bee at this point.

00:48:09.620 He just yells at these people online all day, which, you know, that'll drive anyone crazy.

00:48:15.040 Yelling at Gripers all day online will drive you insane, no matter how you feel about it one way or the other.

00:48:20.480 So, I guess I can see how he gets there, even if ultimately it has blinded him quite deeply.

00:48:25.160 All right, guys, we have quite a bit of questions here in the super chat, so I should start on those.

00:48:34.800 Fritz Imperial says,

00:48:35.920 It's ridiculous to go over if Dave advocates for surrogacy when his actual purchase of a child signals his support more than words ever could.

00:48:44.580 Well, yes, exactly right.

00:48:46.220 Obviously, Dave Rubin has advocated for surrogacy, and his biggest advocacy is engaging in it.

00:48:53.380 He is living that out.

00:48:55.160 He's also, again, been on multiple large conservative broadcasts explaining, you know, why he's done that and how he's done it and all the struggles of being a double dad or whatever.

00:49:07.420 Um, and, uh, so it really is clear that that is something that he supports and, and, and has vocalized.

00:49:15.280 And yet again, you know, Megan Kelly, who the Babylon Bee wrote a joke about, you know, Israel murdering her over her disagreeing with, with, uh, Joel Berry on this stuff.

00:49:25.400 Um, they would never write a joke about someone blowing up Dave Rubin and Megan Kelly for talking after, you know, he advocated for surrogacy.

00:49:36.460 And that just kind of tells you where the priorities are, right?

00:49:41.660 Like he, like he obviously thinks that one of these things is fine and one of them isn't, or at the very least he might object to it, but he's willing to look past it.

00:49:51.320 As long as they agree, basically on Israel, Megan Kelly disagrees with Joel on Israel.

00:49:56.680 So she gets jokes about being, getting blown up.

00:49:59.440 Dave Rubin doesn't disagree with Joel on Israel so he can buy as many children as he wants.

00:50:05.780 No jokes about him getting blown up.

00:50:07.500 No jokes about Megan Kelly getting blown up for talking to him.

00:50:10.800 It's all, it all goes one way.

00:50:12.780 And Joel's like, Oh no, equal.

00:50:15.280 No, no, not equal parts on everybody.

00:50:17.780 It's very clear what you're favoring.

00:50:19.680 You're sending a message and you're using your comedy platform to send a specific message.

00:50:25.460 You are targeting specific people for a specific reason.

00:50:28.620 And it's obvious because you deleted it because Megan Kelly called you out on it.

00:50:32.980 So it's just kind of obvious that, you know, trying, trying, trying to somehow rationalize putting Dave Rubin in your coalition as a member in good standing.

00:50:42.940 While also then saying like Nick Fuentes is, is beyond the pale.

00:50:46.460 Again, I agree a lot wrong with Nick Fuentes, but he's not purchasing children.

00:50:52.120 That's worse.

00:50:52.940 That's just objectively worse.

00:50:54.480 Sorry.

00:50:55.460 Like that doesn't make what, what Nick is saying.

00:50:57.620 Okay.

00:50:57.840 But sorry, it's just not the same.

00:51:01.300 Manahude says, part of me really liked seeing Tim chew out Joel on his squishy hypocrisy, but I really wish you had a chance to walk them through why liberalism is flawed.

00:51:10.280 Oh, well, maybe next time.

00:51:11.520 Yeah.

00:51:11.660 Again, while it was frustrating to some extent, Tim really did nail Joel down.

00:51:18.400 You know, Joel just didn't have a lot of answers for Tim.

00:51:22.340 Uh, now I wouldn't have made all of the arguments Tim made.

00:51:26.500 I think some of Tim's arguments were flawed.

00:51:29.040 I would have made them differently.

00:51:30.180 And then I would have, you know, I think you can probably hit the James Lindsay's a bad actor thing for 10, 15 minutes and move on.

00:51:36.360 Uh, and, and, and, and, uh, Tim kind of made that most of the discussion, but he had every right to be angry at both men.

00:51:45.120 His, uh, criticisms were largely accurate.

00:51:47.620 And I think he did intelligently box Joel in a few times there that, uh, Joel just had no answer for.

00:51:55.100 So honestly, I feel kind of pretty confident that I could do the same.

00:52:00.060 Uh, let's see here.

00:52:01.640 Uh, Darth Amalgamation said, did you see the invitation, uh, to, for a rematch from, uh, Christian and Nick?

00:52:07.900 Uh, Joel has showed interest.

00:52:09.680 I did.

00:52:10.020 And, uh, you know, you probably said that before I mentioned it, we've received, uh, off options, uh, opportunities to kind of, uh, have the second debate from several different people.

00:52:20.840 I I'm down.

00:52:21.920 Uh, I'm, I'm kind of, I'm, as long as it's relatively neutral ground, I'm fine with doing that.

00:52:26.260 I even suggested actually that, uh, that Joel take that offer because, uh, Nick is friends with James Lindsay.

00:52:34.120 And I think Christian, his co-host is much more of my persuasion.

00:52:37.640 And so it'd kind of be one moderator who's sympathetic to each side.

00:52:42.760 So I think that probably be a pretty good balance as opposed to like me and Tim, uh, you know, against Joel, uh, Tim being extremely fiery.

00:52:51.520 I think that would probably be a situation where we would get a fair hearing.

00:52:55.560 Uh, but I, you know, Joel just has to kind of decide which platform he, he, like I said, he has said he's interested in doing it again.

00:53:01.720 Um, so, uh, we'll just have to figure out where, where we're going to take that.

00:53:05.320 Uh, uh, Adam six, four, two, five says it taking buried his word.

00:53:10.780 Those like Ruben may not advocate sodomy or child, uh, trafficking politically, but neither do they advocate for their abolition.

00:53:19.180 Yeah.

00:53:19.420 Again, you think that would be a pretty damning indictment.

00:53:21.740 And this is again, the problem.

00:53:23.180 It's very clear that Joel has principles, but those principles only go one way.

00:53:28.640 Right.

00:53:29.540 And this is what I'm trying to explain.

00:53:31.980 I want principles in politics.

00:53:34.740 I think we need principles.

00:53:36.260 I'm not against principles, but it is very clear that Joel's principles are not really particularly robust.

00:53:46.080 Like he will make allowances for pretty heinous behavior to form a political coalition.

00:53:52.420 And to be fair, so will I, because I think that that's part of politics.

00:53:57.820 As I pointed out during the debate and world war two, we allied ourselves with Stalin, a mass murderer, anti-Christian, uh, guilty for murdering, uh, tons of Christians.

00:54:08.320 We allied himself, ourselves with him against Hitler.

00:54:11.420 Then we bombed, you know, we firebombed Dresden, we firebombed Tokyo, and then we dropped two nukes.

00:54:16.340 Right.

00:54:16.460 That is sometimes the way that the world works.

00:54:22.600 Does that mean that Americans didn't have principles?

00:54:25.700 Does it mean that American soldiers didn't have principles?

00:54:28.120 Is Joel going to say that all the guys fighting in world war two were unprincipled?

00:54:31.480 I don't think so.

00:54:32.460 And I don't think he would, because I think he'll make common cause with guys like Dave at a drop of a hat.

00:54:37.360 If it serves as political coalition, that's fine.

00:54:40.360 I can make allies, alliances with Tucker Carlson.

00:54:43.860 That, that's fine.

00:54:47.260 Uh, what I, I'm not trying to hit Joel on the hypocrisy of making alliances.

00:54:53.000 I'm hitting him on the hypocrisy of saying, well, your alliance building is immoral, but mine is moral.

00:54:58.980 Why?

00:54:59.760 Cause I have the ability to dictate who's Christian or not.

00:55:03.520 And even though the people on your side are Christian men with families raising the next generation of Christians, they're actually pagans.

00:55:10.160 And even the guy on my, the people on my side are like buying babies from their mothers to raise them in a gay marriage.

00:55:17.360 We're the side of truth and Christianity.

00:55:19.460 Okay, man, I think you just have a political coalition.

00:55:22.840 That's about as principled as mine, which is to say it's interested in moving an agenda down the field.

00:55:29.920 We can debate those agendas.

00:55:31.460 I'm fine with doing that, but don't tell me that you're somehow the true Christian who has real principles.

00:55:37.100 When you have James Lindsay and Dave Rubin on your side, you don't.

00:55:42.780 So just be honest about it.

00:55:44.640 Let's just all be honest.

00:55:46.780 Cherry Coke Nixon says, uh, we're now in month two of this mentally ill circuit jerk exercise between the distant right and con Inc.

00:55:52.560 While dims are focused on affordability and hiding their wokeness in the closet.

00:55:56.220 Can we move on?

00:55:57.520 Yes, I would like to largely move on.

00:55:59.300 I hope it has been clear recently that my content has shifted away from this as much as possible and trying to focus on the left.

00:56:05.480 Ultimately, however, there is a really, a really big problem, and this is one we can't avoid.

00:56:10.440 I want to do what you're saying.

00:56:11.880 I promise.

00:56:12.540 I really do.

00:56:14.680 However, it is very clear that there is an insurgent attempt to turn the neocons to power inside the right.

00:56:24.000 They are targeting J.D. Vance and Tucker is just a wedge for J.D. Vance.

00:56:28.580 We saw this in the Heritage Foundation.

00:56:30.060 We saw this in the Intercollegiate Studies Institute.

00:56:32.420 The, the old Mitt Romney, John McCain, Jeb Bush, neocon faction is fighting to return.

00:56:41.300 We're, we're, they're fighting to return Mike Pence's and Mitt Romney's to the presidency.

00:56:47.040 That's happening right now.

00:56:49.060 And I don't think they're going to give up.

00:56:51.040 They see this as their opportunity.

00:56:52.620 That's why it doesn't matter how small or obscure the institution is.

00:56:56.340 You guys probably didn't even know about ISI unless you saw some of their commercials on my show a year or two ago.

00:57:02.180 But even in those smaller institutions that are relatively unimportant to the major operation of the Republican Party, the long knives are out.

00:57:11.500 They're coming for the MAGA guys.

00:57:12.940 They're coming for the new right guys.

00:57:14.380 This, they see this as their time.

00:57:17.260 So I don't want to go on about this, but honestly, I don't think, I don't know that we can stop them from trying to unseat the MAGA changes, from trying to roll back the Trump changes.

00:57:30.040 I think they want to go back to the old Republican Party and they're willing to do anything they can.

00:57:34.260 Guys like Max Abrams has made this very clear.

00:57:36.880 They kind of gave the game away and announced directly, we're going after JD Vance.

00:57:41.280 We're getting rid of the new right.

00:57:43.460 So I don't really know what to do.

00:57:46.320 Yes, I would rather not discuss this, but I can't go after the left if these guys are knifing me in the back, right?

00:57:52.560 Like I can't face my enemy if the people who are my allies are literally trying to destroy lives, get people fired, get people doxxed, drive them out of the movement, ruin their lives.

00:58:03.900 Like, I don't know what to do at that point.

00:58:06.880 Like at some point you have to turn and fight.

00:58:08.460 You can't just keep getting punched in the back of the head.

00:58:13.160 Let's see here.

00:58:15.580 Water Voids, is that what, sorry, hard to pronounce that name there.

00:58:20.200 It says, Orrin, are you going to cover the Florida governor's race at all?

00:58:22.580 The guy that establishment Republicans are trying to force through is awful.

00:58:26.220 Yeah, I can go into that.

00:58:28.200 I tend not to do horse race politics, but that's probably something worth my time.

00:58:33.040 I am a Florida resident.

00:58:34.280 I'm familiar with the players you're talking about.

00:58:36.040 So maybe I will dive into that here eventually.

00:58:41.120 Proper 64 gamer.

00:58:43.860 I think in a way that was the best pod we could have asked for when Joel, from Joel, he was exposed as an unprincipled midwit, but all of his friends are, but all his friends are anyway.

00:58:54.740 What changes?

00:58:55.480 Again, I think it just exposed that Joel had not thought deeply about his own side.

00:59:00.460 He argued against all of the, you don't have principles.

00:59:04.860 I disagree with Machiavellian politics.

00:59:07.160 I disagree with the friend enemy distinction.

00:59:09.040 And then he laid out piece by piece why actually he's practicing it to a T.

00:59:14.060 So it just, and he had not thought about it.

00:59:16.180 He had not thought about the fact that people would look at the coalition he had assembled just as negatively as the one that he was attacking.

00:59:23.780 It simply had not occurred to him.

00:59:25.520 And I think that was very evident.

00:59:28.240 Elijah Timons says, for people who reject the friend enemy politics, everything, everything.

00:59:33.860 And for people who accept friend enemy politics, the law, basically Joel Berry.

00:59:36.980 Again, it was very obviously laid out by Joel that while he opposes all of the political theory I'm espousing, he's actually following it piece by piece.

00:59:47.180 He is using my playbook.

00:59:48.560 He and James Lindsay are the most effective and vicious promoters of their friend enemy distinction you can imagine.

00:59:57.380 They will engage in it.

00:59:58.720 They will lay it out and they will justify it.

01:00:01.660 Again, I think he just had not thought about this.

01:00:03.940 K-Max McDonald, Oren, did you burn out on the James Lindsay talk during the debate?

01:00:09.660 How much in your view is James Lindsay still relevant?

01:00:12.340 Has he burned all his bridges now with everyone so best to ignore him?

01:00:15.660 Yeah, so this is another reason.

01:00:17.180 If you watch the debate, you'll see me at least three times say, can we please stop talking about James Lindsay?

01:00:21.960 He's the least important part of this debate.

01:00:23.600 He's the least relevant part of this debate.

01:00:25.880 And unfortunately, like I said, Tim just wanted to go back to it over and over again.

01:00:30.380 I think you're right.

01:00:30.940 I think James has largely made himself irrelevant.

01:00:33.440 As I said early on, anybody who lashes themselves to James in this is just going to go down with the ship.

01:00:39.320 And I think that's kind of what's happening here.

01:00:41.160 I don't think you have to make a whole lot more arguments about why James is wrong.

01:00:44.820 I think kind of everybody gets it except for a very specific faction of people who are really desperate to get us back to kind of Barack Obama, Mitt Romney politics.

01:00:54.940 That's obviously what James wants to do, and the people who are left that want to do that like to use James as a way to kind of back that up.

01:01:04.220 They feel there's some level of intellectual boistering, I guess, with whatever James is providing.

01:01:08.760 But yeah, I think for the most part, he has burned out his relevance.

01:01:12.200 And if at all possible, I hope that when Joel Berry and I have another discussion, we just never talk about James Lindsay again.

01:01:19.700 Proper64 again says, also, what are we, the actual right wing, trying to win here?

01:01:28.940 Vanquish our woke, dumb enemies.

01:01:31.380 Are we trying to win the culture?

01:01:32.720 Separate issues.

01:01:34.440 I'm trying to figure out exactly what you mean in that.

01:01:37.360 If you mean in the overall discussion or the discussion between me and Joel.

01:01:42.520 I mean, we want to defeat our enemies, and we also want to win the culture.

01:01:48.880 They are separate issues, but they are also overlapping, right?

01:01:52.880 So winning the culture matters, but winning elite opinion matters to win the culture and vice versa.

01:01:58.640 These things are in ways symbiotic.

01:02:01.140 I think the culture, on the culture side, in the conservative movement, we're winning that discussion.

01:02:08.040 I think in general, you know, while there are still plenty of people who probably would side with Joel on some level,

01:02:15.380 if you talk to anyone under 40, they kind of completely reject this.

01:02:20.760 The institutions are another matter.

01:02:22.520 They tend to be more entrenched with neocons and establishment figures, and it's going to take a while.

01:02:28.460 Generational turnover will eventually get them, but I don't know if we have long enough to wait

01:02:32.040 for kind of the millennials and zoomers to move in, even some of the Gen Xers.

01:02:37.000 Uh, so, uh, I guess the answer is on all fronts.

01:02:42.460 Wild Speaker says, the fact is that Joel is a liberal.

01:02:45.780 He's just unhappy with the latest liberal patch notes.

01:02:48.740 He's a conservative, conserving 90s liberalism.

01:02:51.140 Yeah, I know Joel probably wouldn't like that characterization, but I think it's right.

01:02:54.880 I think ultimately Joel is defending the liberal order, uh, and is a liberal to his core.

01:03:00.380 And this is why he is often, it seems like he is disingenuous or confused about these things.

01:03:06.680 Because he believes, and I meant to say this earlier, so I'm glad you brought it up.

01:03:11.220 He believes that kind of the 90s liberal or maybe the 80s liberal tradition is Christianity.

01:03:18.360 Which is why he thinks guys like Dave Rubin and James Lindsay are more Christian than guys like William Wolfe.

01:03:25.080 Because he thinks that is, that is Christianity.

01:03:28.600 Like being a, being an American liberal from the 80s or 90s is Christian.

01:03:34.460 And he's conflating those two.

01:03:36.420 And that's a very serious problem.

01:03:38.580 Because that, that's not what Christianity is.

01:03:41.480 Uh, Maniud says, if the conservatism you, Joel, idolized failed to conserve anything, what use was the conservatism?

01:03:48.520 Again, I brought this up to him in, oh, sorry.

01:03:52.300 Uh, I brought this up to him in the debate and he didn't really have an answer to it.

01:03:55.900 I said, you know, the conservative movement has failed.

01:03:58.280 And he said, really?

01:03:59.080 I'm like, yeah, they don't have anything for these people.

01:04:00.880 It's like, what do you mean?

01:04:01.680 They fought for this stuff.

01:04:02.660 It's like, Joel, we just got to the point where like three years ago, you were allowed to say that there's anti-white discrimination.

01:04:08.400 We got maybe two years, you know, a few years before that, we got the idea that there was a war on men and it was okay to talk about it.

01:04:16.240 That Christians were being attacked and it was okay to talk about it.

01:04:19.500 These were things that were not part of the conservative movement previously.

01:04:22.940 And we just got this, you know, into the conservative movement.

01:04:26.840 So if we had a successful conservative movement beforehand, why do we keep having these problems?

01:04:32.420 Why are we just getting to these issues?

01:04:33.920 And he just didn't, didn't really have any, any response to that.

01:04:38.960 The Sanity Revolt says Rubin says in his book, their seriously contract included a clause requiring abortion if birth defects were defect were detected.

01:04:47.840 So again, I don't know anything about that, but yeah, that's why I said, oh, well, I'm sure Dave Rubin has talked about this quite a bit at length.

01:04:54.980 And if that's the case, then yeah, that's even more evil and ghoulish.

01:04:58.500 And you're not going to hear Joel Berry throwing Dave Rubin out of his coalition.

01:05:03.340 You're just not.

01:05:04.200 There are not going to be any jokes in the Babylon Bee about blowing Megyn Kelly up for talking to a man who was going to have his, the children he was purchasing murdered.

01:05:12.200 If they had the wrong genetics, that's eugenics, that's child trafficking, that's degeneracy and homosexuality.

01:05:21.360 And Joel's just not going to say anything.

01:05:22.880 And he's not going to make jokes about blowing people up about it.

01:05:26.260 Like he's not going to do any of this stuff because he's fine with it.

01:05:29.540 As long as they serve his political coalition.

01:05:36.540 Manny Ute here with James Lindsay's tweet that I was referencing.

01:05:40.400 Thank you very much for bringing up the quote there.

01:05:42.900 That is the text thinking about pretend quote, thinking about pretending to be a Christian.

01:05:47.440 So I can tell Christians how bad they are at being Christian and they'll have to listen to me.

01:05:52.580 End quote.

01:05:53.240 James Lindsay.

01:05:53.820 Mr. Blank says pray harder and it'll get better is the quintessential ghost dancing as described by the distributist.

01:06:01.880 Yeah.

01:06:02.060 I mean, distributist.

01:06:03.220 Great.

01:06:03.500 I even use that illustration in the book.

01:06:05.180 He was pointing that out when it came to constitutional conservatism, but it's also a great example of what Joel Baring is do.

01:06:11.960 Joel Berry is doing with Christianity.

01:06:14.080 He's using Christianity as a placebo to say, we don't have to deal with the problems of our culture or fight back against evil because, well, that's what God does.

01:06:24.580 We lose down here.

01:06:25.700 If God wants us to win, then he'll, you know, he'll make that happen.

01:06:30.360 Otherwise, we should just sit down and take it.

01:06:32.480 And again, weird, I don't think Joel probably believes that overall, but that is how he described what Christians should do in the scenario rather than think about how to acquire power and use it for the glory of God.

01:06:45.500 We fundamentally disagree on that issue.

01:06:48.840 Sorry, like that.

01:06:50.800 I'm not going to watch the kid burn in the burning building.

01:06:53.200 I'm going to put the ladder on the side of the house and go get him and then praise God that we were able to save him.

01:06:57.940 Blow in the Dark says, he who prays for miracles all the time will never do any good.

01:07:04.480 God empowers his people if we're to move personally, prepare for judgment.

01:07:11.440 Again, I agree 100%.

01:07:13.480 You have to take action.

01:07:14.980 You can't just sit there and tell me, okay, well, I guess ultimately we're just going to have to wait for God to do things.

01:07:23.460 And otherwise, we just sit around and twiddle our thumbs that that's clearly not the example of any Christian magistrate previously.

01:07:30.240 And Joel is just not he's not familiar with political or Christian history.

01:07:36.480 Replace my batteries, please.

01:07:39.040 Was hoping to see Joel versus Orin, but alas, it was Joel versus Tim.

01:07:43.360 Also, the Daily Wire ladies think you look nice, but I thought you were.

01:07:48.280 Oh, didn't think you look nice, but I thought you were handsome.

01:07:50.960 They should have lit you better.

01:07:52.340 Well, thank you, I guess.

01:07:54.200 I mean, I don't know what else to say other than, you know, Aristotle was right about emotional, you know, constancy, I guess.

01:08:04.560 But Glow in the Dark says, a king is only supposed to respond directly to the most dire situations.

01:08:11.040 Not every, not every day today.

01:08:12.900 This is, there is more so for God, king of kings, kings delegate.

01:08:18.220 Yeah, again, God has not told you that he will fix everything without human action.

01:08:24.060 That is decidedly the opposite of what God has said.

01:08:27.700 He's made us stewards over the earth.

01:08:29.460 He's put us in charge of families, put us in charge of countries, put us in charge of institutions.

01:08:34.080 It is our job to use them for his will.

01:08:36.580 Not our job to sit around and say, oh, well, whenever it's something I don't want to do, we'll just say God has to do it.

01:08:42.080 So, Joe McDermott says, what is the optimal Machiavellian response to Joel and James?

01:08:46.480 How do we move people past their influence?

01:08:48.820 Again, I think as other people have already said, that's already kind of happening.

01:08:53.540 James has largely alienated everyone.

01:08:56.700 He's made videos to that effect that he can't really get invites to things or, you know, involve himself anymore because he's burned bridges.

01:09:04.480 And, you know, you can't run around telling everybody you hate them and they're stupid and they're crazy and they're woke and then expect to get invites to things.

01:09:14.100 So I think that's kind of solved itself.

01:09:16.280 Barry will continue to have some level of influence due to the B being kind of the only game when it comes in town when it comes to mainstream right wing comedy.

01:09:24.260 And I think he's just a generally more likable person than James.

01:09:27.900 If you meet Joel in person, like I said, perfectly nice.

01:09:31.300 I'm sure he's a good father.

01:09:32.260 I'm sure he's a good husband.

01:09:33.240 But so he'll continue to kind of be around.

01:09:38.180 But I think it would probably be smart, honestly, if he and Seth Dillon from Babylon Bee just kind of remembered that they're comedians and stopped doing the Jon Stewart thing where we do the clown nose on, clown nose off.

01:09:49.220 I'm a very, very serious actor when I'm debating.

01:09:52.060 But the minute I say something stupid or I get in trouble, oh, I'm just I'm a comedian.

01:09:56.340 It's a joke.

01:09:56.860 It's a joke.

01:09:57.400 Don't you know it's a joke?

01:09:58.560 I've got my clown nose on.

01:10:00.220 I think it would just be better if they went back to being clowns.

01:10:02.560 And I say that with no disrespect.

01:10:03.960 The world needs good clowns.

01:10:05.360 I think they're good clowns.

01:10:06.920 So just be that.

01:10:08.080 Just be funny.

01:10:09.160 You don't have to keep stepping on every landmine, especially when it's very clear that you're just kind of out of your depth in some of these issues.

01:10:15.820 Again, I don't say that to disparage.

01:10:17.920 You know, I've watched Dave Smith out as a comedian out debate several professional political pundits, but Joel's got up his game.

01:10:25.840 And to be fair, you know, sometimes Dave does make some flubs just because he's not aware of all kind of the underlying stuff.

01:10:34.920 But but he has read political theory.

01:10:37.040 You know, he is a Mises guy.

01:10:38.540 He's read a lot of economic and political theory.

01:10:40.720 So he at least has that undergirding.

01:10:42.160 I don't think James or rather, I don't think Joel has much of that.

01:10:47.920 Philosophical Thirstworm says the things people say and project into the ether, into the atmosphere are more important than actions.

01:10:54.040 But taking but but talking about dropping bombs is OK.

01:10:58.360 Yeah.

01:10:58.600 Again, very confusing as to which standard we are being held to there or Joel is holding himself to there.

01:11:06.820 He also says, ironically, doing a classical lib rain dance, hoping for God to solve everything is more pagan than discerning your proper God given role and action.

01:11:14.880 Yeah, I think that's actually true.

01:11:16.700 So that's a good point there.

01:11:21.080 Thuggo says, off topic, what happened with MTG?

01:11:24.080 Was this a setup?

01:11:25.060 I'll be honest.

01:11:26.460 I really don't know.

01:11:27.480 For those who don't know, Marjorie Taylor Greene has been, you know, been at war to some extent with Donald Trump.

01:11:36.800 She started this journey as kind of being the standout MAGA congressional representative going to J6 prisoners and things and, you know, standing up for them.

01:11:48.600 I think she made a lot of good points, fought a lot of good fights, but she also was making some tactically unwise moves when it came to going after Donald Trump.

01:11:57.260 People might say, oh, well, that's just you're just saying you have to be loyal to Trump.

01:12:03.040 No, but I am saying there's a way to go about that.

01:12:06.280 That was more tactically sound that I don't think she did.

01:12:10.020 And apparently that ended up putting her position where she felt she wanted to step down.

01:12:14.600 She claimed it was because she couldn't get the work done that she wanted to do.

01:12:17.180 At least that's what I saw.

01:12:18.580 Maybe she ultimately felt that being on the right side of Trump made it difficult for her to get reelected, be effective in Congress, those kind of things.

01:12:25.240 Either way, she seems to have stepped away.

01:12:28.060 Is it a setup?

01:12:29.240 Is it a psyop?

01:12:29.920 I don't know.

01:12:30.980 I genuinely don't.

01:12:32.000 I probably won't read anything into it outside of she was probably had a good heart on certain issues, but was tactically unwise, ended up making some bad decisions,

01:12:43.780 including going on to liberal channels and bad mouthing the right while doing that.

01:12:49.780 And I think that ultimately kind of sealed her fate.

01:12:52.240 She probably had the support of her constituents and still until she did that part.

01:12:56.640 And that's probably what drove her into a bad position.

01:13:03.400 Altheist says, going if demographics, Zoomer and millennials will have a bigger vote share by 2028,

01:13:13.200 change is coming.

01:13:15.500 That's true.

01:13:16.380 However, remember also that demographically those generations are less and less founding American stock.

01:13:22.520 So, yes, they will in the Republican primary, perhaps you will see a representation of a new right.

01:13:30.000 But in general elections, you will see, you know, when the boomers die, frankly, America is going to get less white.

01:13:36.480 And just statistically, the people who are voting for the Democrats are immigrants, minorities, these kind of things.

01:13:43.200 So I wouldn't bet too much on that generational turnover for your wins at the end of the day.

01:13:49.520 And then he says bigger than boomers by 2028.

01:13:52.240 So just correcting that point.

01:13:54.300 I see.

01:13:54.700 Okay.

01:13:55.260 Gotcha.

01:13:55.740 Thank you very much.

01:13:56.660 All right, guys.

01:13:57.200 Looks like that's the end of our questions from the people.

01:14:00.360 Lots of them.

01:14:00.940 So thank you very much for jumping on today.

01:14:02.900 Like I said, hopefully there will be another debate with Joel and we can actually work this out.

01:14:07.520 Have a more clear exchange, something less focused on personalities and how James Lindsay has been behaving and more about what I think are fundamental political realities that Joel is just not able to grasp, does not have the background to grasp, needs to, you know, have be a little more clarified for him before he would be able to kind of understand where other people are coming from.

01:14:32.880 So we're going to wrap this up, but thank you, everybody, for watching.

01:14:37.780 If it's your first time on YouTube, you need to subscribe, click the bell, turn on notifications so you know when we go live.

01:14:44.300 If you want to get these broadcasts as podcasts, you need to subscribe to our MacIntyre show on your favorite podcast platform.

01:14:49.500 If you do, leave your rating or review.

01:14:51.280 It really helps with the algorithm magic.

01:14:54.160 And really appreciate you guys watching.

01:14:57.020 As always, I will talk to you next time.

01:15:02.880 Thank you.

The Auron MacIntyre Show - November 24, 2025

The Joel Berry Debate： After-Action Report ｜ 11⧸24⧸25

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